QLS Classic: Jason Flom

Music industry exec and activist Jason Flom talks about the couplet that got him fired from Atlantic, signing monster acts like Twisted Sister, Kid Rock and Lorde (to name a few) and everything you need to know if you ever come up against the United States justice system.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Of Course Love Supreme is a production of I Heart Radio.
This classic episode was produced by the team at Pandora
Ladies and Gentlemen. This is q l S classic from
January three, two thousand teen. We talked to Jason Flom
named the Planta familiar with what his impact has felt,
named either he signed or discovered or A and R.

(00:22):
Katy Perry, Lord Sugar, Red Blue Man Group, Hailey Williams
and Paramour, Rolling Stones, Lenny Kratti's Coal Play, Jesse Jays
and list Goes Horn. And this man has spent the
first half of his life in the King positions dreams
come true and the second half of his life and
his career shining the light of those have been wrongfully convicted. Uh.

(00:43):
He's the host of Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flam. His
podcast features had used with the women who have spent
time in the prison system or trying to fight the
prison system as we now know it. UH and Kardashians
of meeting Hill, Amanda Knox Rodney read UH. And he's
trying to gree up their freedom. We hope you enjoyed
this episode QULS classic with Jason farm Here we go,

(01:11):
just follow us Suprema su sub Frema road call, sub
Primau sub Frema road call, Suprema Suprema road called, Suprema
su Frema role call. Swear to God. Yeah, from this
day on. Yeah, on my speed down will be Jason

(01:34):
Farm roll call Suprema you never know na road car
Suprema su su Prema road call. My name is Fante, Yeah,
and I'm much blacker yeah than the audience. Yeah for
Uncle Cracker, Suprema road call, sub Fremau sub Frema road call.

(02:00):
Name is Sugar. Yeah, y'all try to stay calm. Yeah.
But on ancestry dot com. Yeah, I'm a f Romo
road call, Soma Premo road bill woke up Yeah with
a song on his mind. Yeah. Thanks Jason Flom for

(02:21):
a wait by White Lion from India. Sub Prima road
sub Prima road call. It's like, yeah, everybody united, Yeah,
Jason Flom. Yeah, Convissions, We're gonna fight him. That's what
I'm saying. Road call. I surema road come. They call

(02:48):
me Dolly Yama. Yeah, I'm a Obama, and I don't
know what to comma. Yeah, but I'll tell you this
co ro road. I love a good car crash every

(03:14):
now and the no you know, use right up there.
At least he didn't freeze up completely like some guests do. Exactly. Yeah, no,
you handle it fairly well. White Cleft tried to teach
me how to freestyle. It just didn't work out. Freestyle.
You don't you start with a freestyle. You gotta start
with the freestyle as hard. I don't know that's going
to college. Just start your basic Ryan, make sure and

(03:36):
I'm here to save your second. That's your that's your start.
He didn't tell me that. Yeah, it's gonna drop. Some
roses are reddish, violence or bluish. You know. I'm not
very religious, but if I was, I'd be Jewish. But
it is. And Steve is in love already, man. I mean, yeah,
you get a nice little diverse crowd here, you know,
thank you very two thousand and eighteen, very much. Missing

(03:59):
one of our white guys. Yeah we are. Actually he's
actually he's at his job. We're hooking from our job
to be here at this other job. Anyway, ladies and gentlemen,
our guest today. Uh. He has entered the professional music world,
or the industry, in his early twenties as an A
and R REP. Later as heading our Atlantic Records. Um.

(04:21):
Might I also add under the Ernigan uh iron fists,
which basically means that he literally learned from the best. Uh.
He signed Twisted Sister, White Lions, get Row, Tori Amos Stone,
Tip of Pilots, name a few, um, and in he
co found it or found it Lava Records, which was
an Atlantic subsidiaries signing the likes of all the nineties

(04:45):
TRL staples like Kid Rock and Uncle Cracker and and
oh your mask Box and Sugar Bray I believe, yeah,
and then uh, since then were fun? I can imagine.
And yeah, I was in college when those sugar and
since then in his uh his world domination mission. Uh you,

(05:09):
I'm sorry you. I'm telling you what you did. Uh.
He led Virgin in the Capitol Records merger um, working
with the Rolling Stones, Lenny Kravitz, Uh, even Coldplay, Uh
particular favorite of fontes. I'm sure that you have a
gazillion questions. Um. Not to mention he's led many to

(05:30):
the Promised Land. It's such unknown acts as Katie Perry
thirty seconds to Mars uh multiple multiple platin max. But
but wait, it gets worse. Um. He's also the founding
member UH of the Innocence Project, the founding board member.
I'm sorry the Innocence Project not to mention the Bronx

(05:53):
Freedom Fund UM FAM, which is a great acronym for
families against mand Tory minimums. UH. Basically trying to ensure
that those that are UM caught up in the law
with wrongful convictions get UM their proper do in court,
get re trials, get UH, get out, Yes, get freedom UM. Yeah,

(06:18):
we can go on on and yes. He also signed
Jesse Jane Lord. I will add at the end. UH,
ladies and gentlemen, please welcome to our first show of
the new year. Jason flam To question, Dude, I'm happy
to be here, kind of an honor. Actually, we're gonna
be honest, We're we're excited because you're a true record man.
But you're a freedom fighter, like one of the last

(06:40):
record man. Like just dude, you knew I'm at ernagin,
which means something to someone that's watching from afar. I
don't know how much of that means to you, but
that means like it was incredible everything around that man.
I mean, he was he was every bit the legend
that everybody thinks he was and uh maybe the greatest
of all time, you know. When he was on it

(07:00):
was you know, and I caught the tail end of that. Um.
But then I got to work under him, you know,
he became more of like an honorary chairman. But um,
but I got to work under him for twenty five years.
I mean it was an awesome, awesome experience. I mean,
what else can you say? The guy died at Rolling
Stones concert, you know what I mean? Like to the end,
he was a legend to the fucking end, I mean

(07:20):
the best. So would you consider yourself the last of his?
Of his disciples? Like, I feel like those that studied
under him have went on to you know, reach further
than other people in the music business, probably rivaling maybe
Clive Davis as far as influences concern Like, would you
consider yourself the last of his? Well, I don't know,

(07:41):
you know, I guess h Craig Calman came up under
him as well. And Craig's obviously done amazing stuff, still
does and so you know we worked together for a while. Um,
and uh, yeah, so it was it was just an
amazing time to be growing up in the music industry.
You know, I actually started Atlantic when I was eighteen,
and um, you know the first time I met on it,

(08:04):
which is really kind of tell us. So I started
off put up posters and record stores, which I thought
was the greatest job in the world. I had a
staple guns on double sided tape, some led Zeppelin posters,
um A C D C Sister Sledge chic. I mean,
it was just it was incredible mid seventies. You were,
there's seventy nine. So I run around the record stores
and climb up on ladders and put up posters and like,

(08:26):
it was just awesome. It was a great way to
meet girls. It was incredible. So I'm laughing. Wait, let
me just pause this all right. For those that you
don't know, I mean the the mom and dad, the
mom and pop record store was a staple of the
seventies and the eighties, more than than what the chains

(08:46):
were in the the Tower records. But um me, as
a kid growing up in the seventies going to the
mom and pop stores, my favorite part of that whole
experience was seeing the window display of how those posters
would go up, of which when I would go home
and everyone would play house or whatever, I played records

(09:09):
and like because some of that I didn't know that
some of those like Jay cards and cards were not records,
they were posters, so they'd be bent in a particular way.
So I would take my father's records and trying to
bend the yeah I broke like the Honey record, broke
the Commodore's debut album, like trying to staple them to

(09:31):
the wall and bend them a certain one. So you
you are who I have to blame for many a
punishments that But probably half of my displays were either
cooking or upside down because I was so stoned. So
because I mean, weed was the big thing back then,
I got news to tell you. But anyway, um, yeah, So,

(09:52):
so I had this great job. I thought it was
the greatest job in the world, and I got free records.
I was like, this is it, Like I've peeked at
eighteen years old, I can't do better, right, And then
I discovered a band called Zebra right, And it's a
crazy story how that even happened, But it doesn't matter.
I determined that I wanted to get a job doing
A and R because it looked like a great job
to me, And so I found a band through a

(10:12):
series of luck and synchronicity and serendipity and perseverance and
a little bit of intelligence, I managed to find this
band and became a hit, so they gave me a
job doing a and art. It must have been twenty
years old. I got a little office at Atlantic Records,
and one day I'm sitting in there high with the
drummer from my high school band. We were actually in
there hanging out like pondering, as we had just gone

(10:33):
out and smoked a couple of joints. We came back.
We were sitting there just in fucking amazement and shocked
that I was getting paid to listen to music. I
was like, how is this even possible? Right? I can't
believe it. So as we're sitting there in this haze,
I'm it's secretary knocks on the door. Her name was
Jenny Lynn. She knocks on the door and she pokes
her head and she goes, mom, it would like to

(10:53):
see you. And I go, you're fullest ship, and then
he looks in and goes, no, she's not. And I
don't give me. Somebody was like, I gotta get cleaned
up here. What am I gonna do? So with that
fresh buzz on, you know. So I went in his
office and he had some kid in there that he
had met at a club in the Bronx, you know,

(11:14):
because he used to go clubbing and ship right and
his kid. I remember this kid was taking a cigarettes
cigarette butts out of the Astra and relighting them right,
and I was like, he was kind of a desperate
looking kid, but he was on some like crazy type
of music thing that I didn't even understand. I mean,
I don't want to tell i'man you know, I'm a
rock guy. I don't know what the fund you're talking about.
I was just like, yes, I was good. What was

(11:35):
I gonna say. I'm sitting there at the presence of
the Greatest like a deity, and I'm high, and I
don't know what the hell is going. I don't even
know how I'm here. So it was it was an
amazing as an amazing way to start a relationship. Who
was it? Who was the kid? I don't remember, I
don't remember, But that was your first band. That was

(11:55):
the first band you signed. Yeah. They had a song
called Who's Behind the Door that was a big was
signed to Atlantic. You signed them to Yeah, and they
sounded exactly like led Zeppa, which is funny because I
have a band now called Greta van Fleet who also
sound like led Zeppa, and they're blowing up. They're actually
they may actually save rock and roll. These kids, it's incredible.
I think they're going to I mean, it's really fun.
They're they're great musicians. He sings like fucking Robert Plant

(12:17):
and the kids are eating it up. So I think
the I think the tide of the pendulum is swinging
back the rock and roll. I gotta ask how how
I mean you're you're lucky streak. I mean, you know,
be I'd be remnist to say that. You know, the
artists that you sign, um, you know, with the help

(12:37):
of MTV, you know, you kind of route each other.
A lot of the artists that you sign that blew
up your first wave, your Twisted Sisters, your your first
wave of metal bands that you signed to Atlantic. Uh,
how how do you feel about the theory of having
good ears or that whole theory of did you were

(12:58):
you like the new blood that is beyond the ears
and like they have a look, they have a charisma.
I mean, just the fact that seventies x we're about Okay,
they sound good. You know they could be ugly and
still have a hit. Yes, the Christopher Cross exactly exactly
in my head like don't, don't, don't, but they do twists,

(13:25):
and I knew that's how, you know, it's just successful.
When I knew I want to rock and all that
ship like well, Twisted Sister was a different story because
what happened was I found Zebra and I was so
excited because then I got this little office and a
little job doing A and R because they were having
a hit. And then um, and then the guy from
Zebra his name is Randy Jackson, not the Randy Jackson

(13:46):
that we're all friends with, but the different Randy Jackson.
So there's a third one, not Michael's brother. Not a
lot of them, guess right. You know you can google that.
You can actually google how many of me dot com?
And you can see how many people have your same name.
And there's four Jason Floms in this country, you know.
So um but anyway, yeah, you know she's on it,
so um. So anyway, so the guy, so Randy says

(14:08):
to me one day, Flom, he goes, Twisted Sister is
the greatest live band in the world. He goes, we
can't touch him, and neither can anyone else. And I
was like, no ship, Okay, well let me check this
ship out, you know. So I went up to uh,
Poughkeepsie on a Wednesday night, and uh, for those of
you don't know, Pokeepsie is about a hundred miles north
of New York City, and uh, it's funny named Pokeepsie.

(14:28):
But anyway, Zebra was opening for Twisted Sister, which I
thought was kind of weird because Zebra was signed and
Twisted it wasn't. And anyway, there was three thousand kids
there on a Wednesday night at six Bucks ahead and
we're talking whatever this was. Six bucks was six bucks, right,
and uh, every one of these kids is wearing a
Twisted Sister T shirt. And Dee Snyder comes out on
stage and it's like thunder in there, right, the kids

(14:50):
are about to riot. And he gets up and he goes,
all right, New York. He goes, we just got back
from fucking England. We're sick and fuck entirely here and
the is lie mean motherfucker's telling us how bloody fucking
good we are. What do you New York motherfuckers? Have
to say, and all three thousand kids throw their fists
here and go twisted fucking sister. And I was like,

(15:11):
get the funk out of here, Like I don't even
care if they can play their instruments, it doesn't matter.
Nothing matters. From that point Florida, I'm like, this one
comes with instructions, you know what I mean. And then
of course they put on that crazy live show, which
was amazing. Because they had done thousands and thousands of
shows by that point, nobody would sign them. They were
considered a joke. The funny thing was that come back

(15:32):
to the city. I drove back with the guitar player
JJ and uh, I don't know if I got home
at four or five or whatever the hell it was.
And I walked into my boss's office the next morning
on two hours of sleep and God knows how many
kinds of you knows exactly, thank you, and uh. I
walked in and I go, I found religion last night,

(15:55):
and he goes, what the funk are you talking about?
And I go twisted sister, and he goes, get the
fuck out of my office. And I was like, I
didn't know that they were considered, so they were already
known as a joke amongst the They had been passed
on so many times by everybody's music, and now they
were you know, back then they were, you know, known
for wearing women's Sometimes he'd come out on a dog
collar with a chain or you know, a makeup and

(16:17):
fingering out by the way, who cares, right, Rocky Harror
was a hit anyway. So yeah, but anyway, nobody would
sign him. And I went to see him again the
next night in South Jersey at thirty seven hundred kids there,
and I was like, this has got it. This is
my mission in life. The funny thing was I finally
got shut down permanently, and they would not sign. My

(16:38):
boss would not sign him, no matter what. He threatened
to fire me if I ever mentioned the name Twist
asist who was your boss Atlantic, You're actually gonna call
him out for this. I don't know about that. Let
me so many years anyway, the president Atlantic back then,
so um not on it, Okay, okay, so um. So
The funny thing was I saw the head of the

(16:58):
English company, guy named Phil Arson, in the hallway one day.
I knew he was. I didn't know him, but I
knew he was like a serious guy, like he had
signed a C d C and ship. He was like
a real guy. You know. I was like, so I
go up to him. I go, Mr Carson, here's the
I told him this whole story. I'm like stumbling over
my words. I'm so excited, right A hand him a
thing or everything he told me. Later he threw the
whole thing in the garbage. But then he happened to
see them opening by accident for I think Foreigner or

(17:20):
something in London. One day he calls you up. The
next day he goes, this is the best thing I've
seen since I saw the C d C. I'm gonna
sign him. So he signed him. We backdoor into America
and then ultimately, of course they became a monster hit.
And uh, it was a lot of fun while it lasted.
You know, well yeah, I mean, I guess till what
to that one. The first album was like a moderate success.

(17:43):
It's called you Can't Stop Rock and Roll. In the
second one with Stay Hungry, and of course that was
we're not going to take it and I want to
rock and you know that's not gonna take it. That
changed my life. I remember the video really your oldest
about it on the Internet. But yes, yeah, we're not

(18:06):
going to take it everything. So I guess you would.
I guess one could say that you were like the
new blooded Atlantic. Whereas because I've seen this happened where um,
something doesn't translate. Two, someone that's a baby boomer, like
say one of your A and R. Peers who was

(18:28):
born maybe in like that's slightly older that you know,
thinks that this is just you know, trash and wouldn't
translate is absolute garbage. Whereas you, being slightly younger being
I guess you could say a generation xer uh finds

(18:53):
makes sense of it all. And so yeah, I mean
I loved you know, I grew up on When I
was a kid, my favorite artist were Zeppelin, Narrowsmith, the Beatles,
Bob Dylan. You know, Um, those will probably be my
top four, but there were so many. I mean back
then you had you know, Queen would definitely be in
my top five. Two, I mean that those are the greatest.
It was like the Renaissance to me, you know, musically

(19:15):
in America and the world actually because a lot of
most of those acts came from England. But um, it
was just an incredible period. But but I grew up
on guitar music, right, I like guitar music, and so
to me the hard rock bands, and it peaked with
Guns and Roses. Obviously I didn't signed Guns and Roses,
but that that era was it was Actually I think
a lot of those bands were underrated. I mean, some
of them weren't. Some of them were terrible, but you know,

(19:36):
some of them were actually underrated. And I think Skid
Rowe was a great band, Like I mean, he was
an incredible singer and those first two albums were magical.
So did you sign all of the hair metal acts
of Atlantic? Were you responsible for most of them? I
didn't sign rat I missed that one, um, but most
of them I signed, and um, you know it was

(19:59):
which one got away that you almost freaking head and love.
I've been in therapy for years trying to forget them. All. Right,
give give me a top three. Your top three could
have had him and oh funk I mean I listen.
I had a meeting with bon Jovi early on, you
know what I mean? Now, now bear in mind, I
think that bon Jovi signing to Mercury was the best

(20:20):
thing that could have happen to him, because they made
a decision that they were gonna put the whole building
behind because they were gonna go broke if they didn't
break somebody. And uh, you know remember that company was
it was a PolyGram they were they were being sold
for fifty million dollars, the whole company. And also some
genius at that company had the idea to put him
together with Desmond Child, which on paper wouldn't seem to
make sense, right. Desmond was like a gay guy disco

(20:42):
songwriter like bon Jovi was sort of this like mancho
kid from New Jersey doing rock and roll. But somebody
had that vision to put them together. And that's where
the greatest songs came from, was that collaboration. So you know,
so who knows. You know, we can go back through
history and and you know and see what's what, but uh,
that would certainly be you know, Um, you could have
had him. I think we could have had him. I think,

(21:03):
you know, we we came close. Uh what else did
I come close on? Oh? I mean I tried. I tried,
like hell, design tool, but I didn't get them. I
would have loved to get Tool. Um yeah, I mean
I don't know why. I still don't know why. I mean,
I I've schmoozed them and did whatever I could and
didn't get it um and uh, I can't think of

(21:24):
the third one. It'll come back to me. So as
a rocking guitar guy, I just have to know, from
a professional standpoint, what was your feelings about the watership
moment in which Nirvana arrived and sort of rendered kind
of the domino set of that you have for the
eighties almost void. I mean, I've heard tales of of

(21:50):
artists speaking, so what was your when Nirvana came along
and sort of mart the end of the hair metal
guitar acts. Did you feel a particular way about their
arrival or were you like, Okay, well this is this
is onto the new and let me, you know, get
ahead of the pack and see what else is out there,
or were you sort of a traditionalist hair metal and

(22:14):
and you know, you know, I felt like you could
kind of see it coming. Because my feeling is that
my theory is that the musical trends are dictated by
whoever makes the best music, right, That's how musical trends happen.
Is that the most creativity. Are you sure about that though?
I think? So? What do you think you as the
most money because there's musical trends happening now that isn't

(22:39):
necessarily the best music, but it's popular. Like can you
separate the difference between popular and what you feel in
your heart? Well, that's a that's a very deep question, right,
I mean, you know, Okay, let's not let's not call
it musical trends. Then let's talk about movements. Important movements happen, right, um,
And then you can go back to like it's it's

(23:01):
interesting when even going back to when disco happened, right,
Why did disco happen because the creativity was incredible back then, right?
Or why did rap come up? Right? And why is
it still what it is? Because there's actual geniuses making
music in that genre, right. There haven't been any rock
and roll genius is probably since Jack White. So you know,
it's hard for that to maintain when you don't have

(23:23):
that influx of creativity that you that you need to
sustain a movement. And then even going back to what
we were asking about with Nirvada, the hair band thing,
like I said, it peaked with guns and roses and
then it went off a cliff, Right, you had bands
coming up and actually getting over that were terrible. I mean,
and we can name them if we want to, but

(23:43):
it was okay, so yeah, I mean from Canada. I mean,
you know, I don't want to mention names, but bullet
boys and tricks their fire house and so eventually I
grew up in Indiana. Man, Okay, there you go. So yeah,
you can kind of see like this was not this
was like imitation stuff. And um, if they're listening, you know,

(24:04):
I'll probably get like nasty nasty um direct messages on
my Instagram. But whatever. Um, you know, the fact is,
you know, it was ripe for change, and there has
there's always a reaction, and then all of a sudden
the Seattle sound came up and you had geniuses again, right,
you had Nirvana. I mean, I think Alison Chains was incredible. Obviously,

(24:26):
Pearl Jam is music that people will be listening to
a hundred years from now. So it's unfortunately, like I
said in Guitar Music, I think that was the last
wave of music that will be time capsule music. I
have a slight theory though, because okay, because hip hop
was created out of sort of the impoverished conditions of
of the inner city, and thus this culture comes in seventy.

(24:50):
I have a weird feeling that what's going on right now,
uh in society for Hikoli with the slow rise or
the you know us finally acknowledging the literal white elephant
in the room of the the altars right kind of

(25:11):
the the the anger, be it justified or injustice whatever,
you know, whatever your feelings are about it. But I
almost feel like it's it's that anger that might spark
up rock and roll, like what we knew as rock
and roll, which was not in existence, because I mean,

(25:33):
the reason why hip hop sort of replaced rock and
roll because it was angrier like it's it's like after
the police, like where do you go from? You can't
you can't get any deeper. And as far as like
hip hop is concerned, always felt that fifty killed hip
hop after after well, I no, no, I know where

(25:54):
you're going with because there was no more money after people,
after after Heat, after you get times and make it,
it's like, okay, how do you become exactly like he said,
I'll kill you? And then that's it? After that song
and Heat, you know, the song with Dr Dre had
the gun gunshot there like to really drive the point home.

(26:19):
You missed you. That was the end, But that was
like you couldn't get no more extreme in that. And
then hip hop is now, you know, user friendly, it's
not heavy baton. You think rock and roll is ready
to pick that up, I mean is trying. I think
like Scrills is trying to. But I feel like this general,
I feel like millennials are so all inclusive with mixing
their cultures and everything that not even d M was scary,

(26:41):
even though that was supposed to be the supposed to
be scary. I mean that was supposed to be like
every generation has their rebel noise. We had eight to eight,
the seventies had guitars like the World, World World. Sorry
you don't think I figured it would have been the scratch,
the record scratch as our the mode. Either way, it's

(27:02):
pretty scary though, well not scary, but just the presence
that it is. And I feel like some anger is
going to come out in music again, directed or misdirected,
poverty or not. And I feel like I wish you
to hurry up. You know, do you feel that because

(27:25):
you're there, I'm still waiting for it to happen. When
he said it was gonna happen during the Bush area.
So yeah, it's I was wrong. Yeah, it's actually weird
that it hasn't happened, because if there was ever a
time to get angry, it's now. I mean, it's never
been more obvious, because I mean, George Bush looks like
George Washington all of a sudden, right was the worst
president ever. All of a sudden, everybody's wishing he was back.

(27:46):
I mean, if we could have a national referendum and
bring him back, I'd lead it, you know what I mean?
Their current conditions, Yeah, any one of them, absolutely, Barbara. Yeah,
maybe because music has become so corporately involved and I
don't know, with the whole scaring of the NFL and things,

(28:08):
do you think maybe artists have taken note of that?
And I'm gonna speak a little bit on a Graham,
But how crazy that the civil rights leader of our
era is is a quarterback, right, I mean, how crazy
it's supposed to be music. I don't know what's going on.
I mean, Dixie Chicks. I don't think people don't want
to mess up their money. Like That's what I'm asking

(28:30):
the musician now, like you want to be they want
to be in bed with all the corporate sponsors, so
they don't want to say anything that will remotely even
funk up the chances of them getting some outside bread.
They want that kick Cat commercial, they want to kick
Cat commercial, they want Desprite commercial, they want all of that.
But there's got to be some I mean, that's a
really that's it. That's it really hurts me to hear
you say that, And it's kind of it feels that

(28:50):
way if it's very cynical and it's like it sucks,
you know. I mean, somebody's got to come out and
be the new dealing. You would have to be to
have not Like whoever's going to be the new dealing
is has to be a half not and be cool
with being half not. I mean, you know, hip hop
has already tainted. You know, did he came along? Did
he came along and showed us all these yachts and
ship and you know, I mean I'm trying and can't

(29:14):
check it somewhere. You know, you know, you know it's
the best protest song I've heard in a while. Did
you have you know a song by Bred Dennon Ain't
no reason? Oh that's a good one, Um, you may
have to play it on the show. Yeah, it's it's
about four years ago and he hasn't, you know, become
a commercial. You know, I was hoping he was going
to become bigger because that song is power. No um
I wanted to but uh, I think he may have

(29:36):
stayed independent. I'm not sure what became bread then and
d e n and the end and the song is
ain't no reason strong ship. But so yeah, somebody's gonna
come along and you know what, whoever it does and
does it right, he's gonna own it because nobody else
is doing it. So there's that giant whole. David Foster
likes to talk about that hole in the marketplace. Sometimes
I don't think this is what he meant. But in
this in this case, there is a void and somebody's

(29:59):
gonna come along and fill that void. And you know,
some of the rappers are talking some straight stuff, right
but yeah, I mean chance um logic definitely, so you know,
but it doesn't it's not anywhere near what it could
be and should be. Where's the Colin Kaepernick of music?
Come on, let's celebrity has ruined the industry. And that's

(30:23):
the thing. Even if we find that person of the reality,
they'll be lifted to celebrity heights so big that they
can't you know, they would have to unfortunately, I mean
Kurt Cobain's solution to that. You know what his solution
to avoiding becoming a cliche was, And that's, you know,

(30:44):
sadly what the reality is. It's like, we find something
and then we in trying to avoid a cliche, he
became one. So I'll tell you this. I think somebody's
out there probably listening to this show who's got that
gene that won't let them be anything other than what
they're meant to be, which is exactly what we're hoping for.
You know, there's one motherfucker out there who's going to
come out and be like because they need to, because

(31:05):
they have to, and they don't care about you know, sponsorships,
and they don't care about you know, I mean, it exists.
And if, like I said, the time is so ripe now,
oh my god, then how do you keep that kind
of person motivated to to stay in the business Because
you get these acts that are they get hyped up
to become the next uh next big thing, and then
they turn into Ja Electronica and and disappeared in front

(31:27):
of an Xbox for six years. I think I think
that that person does exist. And and like I said,
it's it's almost like, uh, they're gonna have to plug
Maclamore made something really important records right, like every time
he does it kind of Yeah, White Privilege. That song
was amazing, but I feel like nobody ever heard Yeah,
and so was the one, um, the one about the

(31:49):
same love. What a beautiful, beautiful record, I mean amazing,
And some of the statements he made it so powerful. Um,
you know, I wish there was more of that, you know,
And but but I'm an optimist and I believe there
will be because it has to be. A reaction always
has to begin and Yang speaking of which, Okay, I
gotta say, Um, I was joking by saying, speaking of which,

(32:10):
let's talk about Kid rock Man. No, I gotta say,
even though um, his politics anger the ship out of me.
Speaking of Kid Rock, I loved Hamilton's No, but I
was I will say that, Uh, of any story of
an artist getting signed to a label, uh, his story

(32:36):
is the greatest, funniest story of all time, almost to
the point where I think I would almost invite him
on the show to do a one on one without
you guys just scared scared? Oh no you should be.
I mean we were, we were thrilling. I mean, he
ain't gonna we ain't gonna got themn kate walk right,

(32:58):
But but I keep it respectful. Yeah, but a Republican
that was bullshit. He wasn't running, he was he was
trying to set okay, because I appreciate it. Rock he
said some things that have been okay. I don't know
him no anymore? No, yeah, how about those Nicks? You know?

(33:31):
Looking up? Who was listening? So okay, I'm trying to
move you down the timeline. Why did you leave Atlantic records?
Did you have when when I'm at Oregon? First of all,
just okay, you already explained that he was a guy
like were you? Was he approachable at all? Or was

(33:52):
like when he was in the building, everyone like straightened
up and cleaned off their desk and pulled out the
yo yo. And that's how I thought it. I was
supposed to be until I met him, and then I
realized that he was cooler than any of us, you know,
and he could he was known. I mean, he could
drink any of the rock stars under the table. He
could party with the best of him. Was his best story, Oh,

(34:13):
his best story. So he told me a story about um.
When he was at mixed wedding to Bianco, which he
was the best, he was the best man. And it
was in the south of France, beautiful day, and he
tells me they're having a reception outdoors and everybody's there,
all the local officials are, they're the mayor, chief of police,

(34:35):
everybody else. And he says, Keith's walking around with a
bag of blow. He's using one hand to shovel it
into his face, right, and you know, and the and
he literally bumps into the chief of police of whatever
it is, Niece or whatever town they're in. I remember it.

(34:57):
And so the chief of police says to I'm it
in French because I spoke French. He spoke a lot
of languages, I think, and he says to him as
something I'm gonna mess up to French. But he says
kiss sudra right, which I think means what is this powder? Right?
And i'm it goes, oh, um, you know what um,
of course in French. But he says, uh, this is

(35:17):
um they're not only musicians, also their clowns. And he
starts pulling this stuff out and propping it on his stage. Right,
only I could do that, right. But he had stories
with Jim Moore, I mean all the you know, like everybody.

(35:38):
I mean, it's so great being around him. You know.
I do want to get back to how I left Atlantic,
by the way, because that's a great story. All right,
how did you leave? I got fired over a poem
that I wrote. Yeah, the story goes always expecting this.

(36:00):
So I was working there. I had been named almost
twenty five years to the day that I walked in
there in July thirty one, nineteen seventy nine, was my
first day work in the Atlantic, and you know, eighteen
years old, about twenty five years later, I can name
chairman and CEO of the company. I sold my company, Lava,
to them, and they offered me the job, and I
was it'sunny because my first reaction when they said, you know,
you can actually run the place, I was like, you mean,
I get to decide whether it's a snow day, like

(36:23):
kidding me? Because I still felt like that eighteen year
old kid. You know, this is under Doug Morris now
it is under Duncan. No, no, no, this was under
Lee Or Now le Or was now running it and
Edgar Edgar Company and Lear was running it right. Yeah,
So there you go. So strangely enough, I didn't get
along with Lee or Um. I know. I think all

(36:44):
the guests have been on this show have their best
lee Or imitations. Ever, so even when you talk Lee
or say it in the lee or accident, because we'll
have a compilation of everyone imitating on the show. So
this is lee Or on the golf course, you're ready?
Oh my god, did you see how I hit that? All?
You cannot get the golf any better than that shot
was incredible. That shot was amazing. I don't know the

(37:06):
president I'm talking about. We don't want you to do
the president of United States. Let me see, let me
do it different. Okay, Okay. By the way, I had
the misfortune of playing nine holes with Trump about six
or seven years ago. It's it's a horrible experience. But anyway, okay,

(37:28):
we did come back to Okay, So wait, can I
ask you? In order to make it too that big
money level, am I going to have to learn how
to play golf? Oh? I think you're doing okay. I mean,
I don't know who your accounting is, but if you're not,
you should probably get a new one. Let's talk about

(37:50):
I'm talking about adding extra zeros to my bank account
because that's the one common denominator that all my peers
now that are jumping to that film, that are making
successful film and Louise Cliff jump to the other side
of the mountain. They're all suddenly like playing not puff
doesn't play golf. You never mentioned it to me, Um,

(38:16):
do you like golf or do you know that's the
language of the world. No, No, I like golf. It's
really it's a really fun sport. And you know, I
actually broke kid Rock as a result of a golf game.
So it's been it's it's very good for business. You know,
it's because think about it, you're out there for four hours,
you're walking around your socializing. You know, it's it's beautiful.
You're walking around on grass and there's like trees and

(38:38):
water and birds and ship it's nice and something. When
you hit a golf ball correctly, which doesn't happen that
often for even the best pros, they'll say, like, you know,
they don't actually like but when you actually pure the
golf ball, you can feel the ball compressed, because you
know that's physics, right, The ball compresses and it explodes out,
the energy explodes out the other side, and you can

(38:59):
actually feel the ball compressed against the club through your
hands and into your soul. I mean, it is like
being connected to the center of the fucking universe. And
and then you get Unlike other sports, nobody hits you,
nobody tackles you. Run, you don't have to catch anything.
You just stand there and admire your work as sales
out over the horizon and lands gently on the green.

(39:21):
I mean, it's a feeling that is It's orgasmic. I'm
telling you do need a couple of coins though. That
is the sport that you need coins for, because you
got to get into the golf course. But you're fine, okay,
Well you can play public. It warms up. I used
to play public golf courses all the time before straight
free or just well no yetta, Yeah, I mean you
gotta pay something. Yeah, I do. I like playing golf.
I'm not gonna say I'm good at it, but I

(39:41):
do like playing black defying me. I like to play golf.
I've had a couple of Yeah, well, I haven't a man.
You know why you gotta wait for a man. I
don't wait. But I'm just saying it's nice to do
it with a partner. Okay, so let's go play some
golf and we'll post it on our Instagram. Just we're

(40:03):
gonna go do it. I'll take you on playing the
snow because it's getting cold out. I don't care judged
potential business partners or people that you're gonna work with
based on their golf game. No, I mean, I don't
care how somebody plays, as long as they don't play slow.
That's if you're starting out, Just don't play slow, you know.
I mean, nobody cares if you're good or bad or whatever.
Everybody's pretty wrapped up in their own ship. But you know,

(40:24):
you just like keep it moving, and you know, it's
just it's a fun. It's a fun game. It's extremely
frustrating game too, by the way. It's it's the craziest
thing because some days you can or you go from
hole to hole. You can play like Tiger Woods. One
hole in the next hole, you're playing like super Sales,
you know. So yeah, it's really weird. What a reference.
I got to tell you the poem story before. So

(40:46):
I wasn't getting along with Lee or right. Um, I
don't know. I found it ironic that his name was liar,
you know what I mean, And the irony was killing
me day to day. So we didn't get a long
and uh it was a very frustrating experience, you know,
it was. It was a fun time. And I signed
Hayley Williams back that was called Paramore right, and it

(41:07):
was you know, I was only chairman of Atlantic for
about a year, but it was good. It was you know,
I loved was it. That was I'm gonna say two
thousand and three or four something like that, okay, before
you got no no, no, no, no, no, no, two
thousand five probably whatever it was right around there. That
was when we sign I was my group little brother.
We signed like oh four five. I think I didn't

(41:30):
suck it up for you anyway. It was it was
kind of already sun up we got to you. So
it was kind of okay, dodge that bullet, okay, so, um,
it wouldn't be funny. This was like not even a
real podcast, like there's revenge anyway, big and then he
represents you forget my god, everyone's always out to get

(41:54):
the Jews. Anyway, I got to replace us, That's what
I hear. I had to go there. So yeah, um,
come on doing to you? So I'm not feeling well.
So I'm just laying back and Jameson's guying me. Yeah, solidarity.

(42:15):
So um, I ask you an old question. We just
go back real quick. That old question a compression from
your coming up because I thought I read something. I'm sorry,
but don't forget you. I won't forget it down. So anyway,
So here it is about a year and a quarter
into my, you know, tenure as chairman and CEO of

(42:39):
my favorite record company in the world, Atlantic Records, and
Edgar was going to be honored by the u j
A at a music industry luncheon that's the Humanitarian of
the Year of award or whatever I think it was,
and so is the United Jewish Appeal, major Jewish charity, wonderful,
wonderful charity. Anyway, So there was a kickoff bakfast Um

(43:01):
and the chairman all the different companies came and so
I pledged a bunch of money to the u j
and Edgar's honor, which was appropriate thing to do. And
also I think it's a great charity. So um, A
couple of weeks go by and I get a call
from I don't know, somebody from the u J. Steve
Stew whatever his name was, right, and I'm like, hey,
what's up? And he goes, you know, you gave us
a bunch of money. You know, you get a full

(43:22):
page ad in the booklet, you know, but but it's
it's due tomorrow. You know, what do you want to say?
So off the top of my head. Now, bear in mind,
our stock had just gone public and wasn't doing so well.
You probably remember that I Warner Music group Stock the
I P O had just happened. So off the top
of my head, I said, how about this. Roses are reddish,

(43:43):
violets are bluish. Our stocks in the toilet, but at
least we're both Jewish, was Steve stew And he goes,
are you sure about that? I was like, oh, you said,
I have twenty four hours. Let me let me run
it by you people, right, So I read it by
a few people. Everybody's reaction was as same as yours.

(44:05):
And I even called up Edgar's brother in law, who
was working at the company at that time, and I
said to him, as it was Alex, I said, Alice,
what do you think? Like? I mean, you know, I
tried to rewrite it, but you can't. It's perfect, right,
You couldn't change one word in that. It's poetic perfection.
So I call Alex, I like, but he says, listen,
Edgar has a wonderful sense of humor. I know he's
gonna love this. In fact, I'm so sure that if

(44:27):
he doesn't, I'll take the heat. I was like, okay,
So I had the art department mock up the ad
with some roses on the page and stuff, you know.
And what I didn't anticipate was that people at the lunch.
You know, it's not the most exciting lunch in the world, right,
I mean, you've got some speeches. They're they're a little
bit ponderous, and so what are you doing these in
these lunches? You go through the booklet, right, and every

(44:47):
adds the same Edgar, congratulations, you're wonderful. When you met
fantastic honor and you meditarian this that yours was, are
your fantastic? And then you come to my ad and
people were like spitting out their food. You try to,
and you try and knock the laugh because everything's quiet
because the guys up there making a speech about a
serious issue, right about their helping people, and you know,

(45:07):
the wherever they are, the things they're doing, and you know,
and you can't be just breaking out and then make
matters worse. The Daily News ran my poem under the
headline Edgar can't even get respect from his own CEO,
So I guess I didn't. Unfortunately I didn't have a

(45:28):
poetry clause in my contract, so I was I was paid.
You know, I got fired and I got paid out,
and then I went to run Virgin, and you know
that was a fun time too, so you know, um,
and actually when I took over Virgin, I'll show you
this I took over. You can't see it on the radio,
but I'm gonna show it to you anyway. When I
took over Virgin, which was shortly thereafter, the hottest moving
the country was the four year old Virgin. Everybody remembers

(45:48):
that iconic poster with his face on it. Right. So
I decided, rather than run a normal announcement Jason Flaming,
chairman and CEO Virgin Records, I decided to take a
picture as him. Right, So I bought a wig and
uh and I bought a shirt and this is what
it can. Pull this out of my wall to show
it to you. I ran this ad full page and
billboard and hits except I mean, come on, can we

(46:18):
use that? Yeah, use it from whatever you want. That
was my thing. Yeah, I think I bet the card
in the process. I can get you a clean one though.
Um yeah, so it was. It was really a fun time.
Virgin was great. You know, we turned that place around. Um,
that was you know, red jumpsuit apparatus was the first
thing I saw it actually the day after I got there.
And then Katie Perry and you know, the thirty Sex

(46:40):
to Mars was amazing. You know. Jared Leto's a force
of nature, that guy. He's one of those rare people
that everything he does, like Jamie Fox, right, everything he
does is perfect. It's like annoying almost right, well not
every single but yeah, yeah, I got that safe reeling
watching Hamilton's. You know what the worst thing about going
to see Hamilton's is, I'll tell you right now. You

(47:02):
sit there and you just feel I feel so inadequate,
you know, I mean not only because of the the
unreal accomplishment of Lynn Manuel Raretta writing and producing and
everything doing everything around that show, but also Hamilton's himself.
You're saying, I haven't done ship in my life. Oh
my god. People are like, hey, you're doing pretty good.
I'm like, nah, I haven't done anything that sucks. So yeah,

(47:24):
what the things to jay Z Well, yeah, technology, um,
you know, but and yeah, and and Hamilton, I mean,
good for you, by the way, I mean, it really is.
And by the way, there's the there's a rebelliousness ironically
right that we had to go back to the Founding
Fathers to get some rebelliousness back in our culture. And

(47:45):
it is. But it's it's so nice to see how
that thing has become, you know what it is, because
it's so important and it's so profoundly it's just I mean,
it's perfect. It's one of the only when I went
to see that, people are like, well it is the
first time, and people like it is as good as
the hype. I'm like, you know, it's probably the best

(48:06):
thing since either Princes at the bottom Line or Zeppelin
at the Garden. Did you see Hamilton's pre hype or
like two thousand dollars of ticket hype. So here's what
happened is amazing. I went, my son is in the business,
Mike flomb and Uh, he's really excited. I'm on your show,
by the way. But anyway, because he's a student of

(48:28):
and he was working when he was sixteen years old,
he started working with Royce to five nine and so
we were down in the studio with Royce in Atlanta
and I was I started talking to him about Hamilton
and he goes, this is when Hamilton's first come out.
And he was like, oh, that guy called me the
other day, lynnon Manuel Miranda guy. I was like, would

(48:48):
you say? He goes, I didn't know who he was.
I didn't take his call. I was like, holy sh it, dude,
Like are you like, let's get on the phone and
get us in, you know, like And so he called
and Lynn got us tickets and I went with uh
with um with his manager as well as my son
Mike too. Uh like to see Hamilton's So it was
pretty early on. And then Lynn took us backstage afterwards

(49:09):
because you know, Lynn, I will you know better than anybody.
He loves. He loves the great One and Royce's is
one of the real greats in hip hop in my opinion.
So um so we got to see it as his guests,
and it was just a magical, magical experience, you know.
So I need to know with you be in the

(49:30):
position that you're in as far as being in the
business by that point, like thirty plus years, um, running
three labels and pretty much signing like you know, people's highlights. Yeah,
how in the hell did you sort of take a

(49:52):
detour into social justice? Because because I feel like if
you if you're gonna do something, you gotta do it
well and really put your heart into it, not just
like jack of all trades, master of none. So, but
the thing is is that you're, you know, your your
history shows that you're you know, you're deeper than one

(50:14):
foot is planted, planted deeply into the music business and
and well, but you know, your work with social justice
shouldn't be scoffed at either because like why I'm not
saying why because like people behind in the boardroom shouldn't
care about the you know, the have nots, but what

(50:35):
like what happened, like what what compels you to even care?
Can you just add a little layer of who your
parents were to even heavier up that situation because the
fact that you so didn't have to go this way.
It's kind of ill to me because I know we
haven't discussed where you came from, and which I heard
your father did some amazing things in the business world,
so it's really like you really did not have to

(50:56):
do this, right. Yeah, my dad was My dad was
my hero. You know. He was the son of immigrants,
grew up as poor as you could be. He was
so poor that back then in Brooklyn when he was
growing up, they'd give you your first months free if
you moved, and they would move every month. That's how
poor he was. And he, you know, he went to
City College at night. And it's a great story. Actually,
when he got out of the army, he wrote a

(51:16):
letter to Harvard Law School and he said, I don't
have any money, and I don't have a college degree,
but I'm the best thing since sliced bread, and I'm
a soldier and if you let me in, you won't
regret it. And they gave him a full scholarship to
Harvard Law School and he became not anymore. And I
also thought you were going to do some Roses are
red couple. I was on me, but he no, he

(51:40):
you know, that was when we actually used to treat
our g I s as with respects right as as
as they should be. Um, you know treated but um,
but don't get me started on that. But yeah, so
he became, um, one of the greatest lawyers of the
twentieth century. And um, you know, there's a chapter and
outliers about him, The Three Less Since a Joe Flam

(52:01):
But moreover, he told me and my brother, do whatever
you want to do, try to be the best at it,
but just make the world a better place. He says,
if you do that, that's that's success. That's what I
call success. And I wanted to be a success in
his eyes. So um, so yeah, so he you know,
he was very driven to make the world a better
place himself. He was very strong on civil rights and

(52:25):
on quality quisition to like he create he created a
concept or something like that. Yeah he he, Well, he
basically pioneered hustile takeovers and proxy contests and all that stuff.
And it was at a time when you know, Jewish
lawyers couldn't get jobs at Wall Street firm, so he
he went to a firm that had four He was
the fifth lawyer and they had no clients, you know,
but they were you know, they're trying to figure it out.

(52:46):
And then he found this niche and and by the
time the Wall Street firm started getting into it was
too late. He was dominant, you know, so um and
then he built his law firm up into one of
the most powerful in the world. And um, you know,
but he did it. He always did it the right way.
He never cut corners, he um. You know, he treated
people with respect, and you know, I remember him defending

(53:09):
you know cases, and he did. They did a lot.
They still do a ton of pro bot to work,
including for the Innocence Project. By the way, Scatting is
the firm. It was Scatting off Slate, marn Flam and um,
because he was the young guy when they started. But um, yeah,
so he remember him when he defended the They were
trying to get rid of evolution, the teaching of evolution
in in one of those states, Kansas or something, and

(53:30):
he sent his Scatting like team of lawyers out there,
and he was so excited when he then he came
back and they won. You know, that was his ship.
You know. So anyway, So yeah, so I grew up
with I grew up with him and my mom. You know,
my mom graduated Cornell when she was a t which
she was to remind me all the time, especially when
I was dropping out of college. But anyway, so yeah,
that was what my mother was. She was she was

(53:53):
doing embarrassing. She was actually decorated when she met my dad.
That's how she met my dad. When he first got
any money was because he was in an accident. He
got hit by a taxi and it was in the
hospital for a long time and got some money, so
he hired a decorator and that's how I met my mom.
So yeah, and you know, wherever your mind goes there,
I guess it can go. But anyway, it was anyway,
so so yeah, that's how I grew up and then

(54:14):
But what happened was that in ninety two or three,
I read a story in the newspaper about a kid
who was serving fifteen years to life for a non
violent first defense cocaine possession charge in New York State,
and he was a maximum security prison And the reason
it was in the newspaper was because his mother had
been trying to get clemency from Governor Cuomo. This was
the first governor Cuomo, Mario Cuomo, and she had had

(54:38):
She was just a homemaker from upstate New York, from Rome,
New York, and she had gotten letters from the judge.
The warden, Geraldine Ferraro had written a letter on her
behalf right. So that's why it was in the newspaper
because Cuomo turned down Ferraro, who was asking for clemency
for this kid who had been in for eight and
something years already for non Like I said, let's just
reflect non violent for defense, right, cocaine possession. Can you

(55:03):
for our listeners that don't know, could you explain that
the history of the Rockefeller laws so that they know
why New York's laws have been tougher. It's it's odd,
you know when you think about it, but New York
has some of the worst laws in the country. I mean,
you would think that the Rockefeller laws would be more,
you know, something that you would see in Mississippi or
Alabama or something like that. But the fact that the

(55:24):
Rockefeller drug laws came up under Governor Nelson Rockefeller at
the time when everybody was getting tough on drugs and
war on drugs and all this stuff. And you know,
they made it extremely in the community. Yeah, I mean, yeah,
there's that too, but um, yeah. So they made these
crazy mandatory sentencing laws and basically they took all the

(55:45):
power away from the judges and gave it to the prosecutors.
So the only way out of a mandatory sentence is
to rat on somebody else and could the process. And
so the prosecutors literally have all the powers, so they
could sit there and say, do you look, what do
you want to do? All you can plead guilty, right,
but even if it's something you didn't do otherwise, you're
looking at this mandatory sentence of you know, it could
be decades in prison, and you know, you never want

(56:08):
to find yourself in that position. But and judges, in
so many of these cases, judges as they're sentencing somebody
will say, I wish I didn't have to do this,
you know. And I had one guy that I was
was talking to who had been sentenced to uh, I
don't know, twenty or more years in prison and he
was out now and he said to me, you know,
that was the thing to kill me was when the
judge said I wish I could give you probation and

(56:28):
I'm sitting there going, wait, I I can accept the sentence,
but not when I mean, like, how's that working? You
know what I mean? Like, yeah, it's just uh, it's
really sickening. So anyway, in this particular case, I just
read this story and I was I was flabbergasted, you know, like, um,
I was like, I didn't know about these mandatory sentencing laws,

(56:50):
as most people don't until they get caught up in it.
So I contacted a music business lawyer, a defense lawyer
I knew. The only defense layer knew was a guy
nam Bob Kleiner. He represented Stone Temple, Pilot and Kid
and they used to get in trouble a lot, as
you remember it. So I called Bob. I was like, Bob,
can you do anybody? There's nothing you can do about it.
It's the Rockefell and drug laws is just the way

(57:12):
it is. I was like, well, can you talk to
this woman on the phone because I called Mrs Lennon.
That was her name was in the newspaper, Shirley Lennon.
I just called her and I said, look, you probably
think I'm some freak from New York, but I gotta
do something. I don't have a lot of money because
I didn't back then, but I'll send you what I can.
Maybe you get a new appeal or something. And she said, Jason,
he goes, she's we've we've exhausted, we've spent all of
our savings on lawyers, and we've exhausted all of our

(57:33):
peals and this was our last hope. And she says,
you know, crazy thing is there was a murderer who
went to the prison the same prison as my son,
after my son, and he's out and my son's like
elgible prole for another seven years. And I was like,
this is for cocaine powdered possession. Yeah, cocaine powder possession.
It was four point two ounces, right, so it wasn't
a little bit, But the fact is even still you

(57:56):
know the cliff, there's a cliff right over four ounces
and York State possession is an A one felony. So
it's like, you know, it's like murder one um two
to four ounces is in a two. But he had
four point two ounces, which, now, was there a difference
if it's powdered cocaine or if it's crack. I mean, back, well,
we're talking. I don't know exactly what the difference was

(58:18):
back then. That was when crack was first coming up, right,
But in the federal system there's there's there's a huge difference.
And I actually worked on the legislation that rolled back
the mandatory sentencing UH laws with crack because crack used
to be treated a hundred times more severely than coke.
And there's a very simple reason why, and I don't
have to tell you what it is, because all smart
people in the road, so um, yeah. So I worked

(58:40):
with Senator Durban and others on that bill, which was
the first mandatory sentencing rollback in America in forty years,
and the best deal we could make with the Republicans
was to change it from a hundred and one to
eighteen to one. And the worst part of it is
that it wasn't done retroactively, which always blows my mind,
Like if if we're acknowledging that a law is wrong,
how is it wrong now? But it wasn't wrong before?

(59:01):
It doesn't make any sense. And I worked very actively
on the clemencies that President Obama granted to so many
of those people that are serving what are illegal sentences.
So you're saying that once it was turned around, they
decided to not even go back to reverse all those
wrongful convictions. No, it was, like I said, it wasn't
done retroactively. So if you were you were so misfortunate

(59:24):
as to be busted before the law was changed, you're
gonna you're still sitting there in president And I was,
you know, I was really trying hard to get the
Obama administration to grant clemency to all of those people
unless they had committed some terrible crime while they're in prison,
because again, it doesn't make any sense. How can you
say that, How can you look that guy in the
eye and go, dude, you should have been busted a

(59:46):
few weeks later. You know, you'd be out, you'd be
home with your family. You have four years instead of
twenty five whatever it would be. It's you know, it's
literally was reduced by eighty something per cent the sentences,
but those people are still in some of the now.
President Obama did grant clemence to a lot of them,
and um, you know, I worked with the n A, C,
d L and other organizations on those clemencies, and you

(01:00:06):
know he granted it's over seventeen hundred clemencies. Not all
of them were crack senses, but a lot of them were.
And but there's still thousands of other people who are
still stuck in there. Um. And obviously they're going to
be for the foreseeable future if they're in the federal system.
But back to the original story. So, so Bob as
a favorite to me calls Mrs Lennon and he says

(01:00:28):
to me, look, I don't have any hope for this,
but I'm I'm gonna read the transcripts as a favorite
to you because I was a good client. I guess right,
and he takes the case pro bono and five months
later we ended up in a court how courtroom in Malone,
New York, by the Canadian border, and I was sitting
there they brought Stephen in in shackles. I was like,
who is he? Charles Manson? This we think his legs

(01:00:49):
were chained together, his hands are changed to his waist
and um. I sat there holding Mrs Lennon's hand, and
the judge, who I thought was never going to give
us a break because he looked like a conservative guy. Um,
he said something I haven't heard anything in this courtroom today.
Understatute this section now. But he was all this legal
mumbo jo. I don't know what he's talking about. And

(01:01:10):
then he goes, but under the power vested in me
that it stayed in New York, the motion is granted.
Whoa thing down? And I was like, what the fuck?
And then Bob comes. I was like, Bob, what happened?
Because we won? I was like, get the funk out
of here. So he so. So Bob found this angle right,
which is that he and I don't even know how

(01:01:34):
this worked. But there were two kids in the car
when Steven got arrested. He was driving and his friend
was in the pastor's seat. They got pulled. One of
them got out to take a leak, apparently, and the
cops of him and came over and searched the car,
found the town, the coke under the seat. Whose is it?
Most kids say, it's not mine. Well, everybody should know
out there. If you're in a car and the drugs

(01:01:55):
are in the car, it's yours, right If everybody everybody in,
they it could be twenty of you in the car
could be a clown car. Okay, Ever, it belongs to
everybody because and all of it belongs to after this possession,
not ownership. That's so um. How much coke was it though?
Four point two ounce? So um, just over the cliff right,

(01:02:16):
just over the limit. But it's it's really the terrible,
terrible coincidence there. So um. So both kids said it
wasn't mine. Both kids pleaded it since Steven's lawyer told him,
I will I will win this case where I'll hang
up my shingle. Right, he should have pleaded guilty because
he was guilty, but the other kid was not guilty.
The other kid was a passenger, and both of them
ended up getting fifteen years to life. Now after he

(01:02:37):
went to prison. Yeah, so after he went to prison,
Stephen wrote letters saying, listen, this was me, it wasn't him.
But their their response was too late. You know, you
should have said so before. So they eventually allowed the
other kid, whose name I don't remember, to plead down
to an A two fell and I think he was
released after eight years for something he didn't do, by

(01:02:59):
the way, and um, and then my guy Bob went
and said, you can't treat the same crime. It's the
same crime. You can't treat the two guys differently. For
the same crime. The books picked to the same crime. Basically,
you know, I'm garbly it was twenty five years ago,
but that was the basic argument, and it worked, you know,
and Stephen got out, you can't send us one guy

(01:03:20):
to eight years and another guy at twenty for the
same thing. Yeah. Yeah, so you know. So anyway, it
was a cathartic experience, as you can imagine. And I said,
holy sh it, that was the best feeling. I know.
I mean, losing my virginity was good, but even this
was even better, you know what I mean by the
way I lost my virginity, yes, Kaser to madisis yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes,

(01:03:47):
that would have been funk here. Yeah yeah, I was
like it was actually in the sky box at the bathroom.
Yeah it wasn't romantic. Um, but anyway, but the that's
how I knew I was ended up working in Atlantic
because yes. So anyway, so what I did then was
I I you know, I experienced, you know, hit me

(01:04:08):
so hard that I did some research. I found out
about Families against Mandatory Minimums, which you talked about before,
a fan which had just started. I called them up.
I joined their board. That led me to the drug
Policy Alliance, the Legal Action Center, and then I saw
something on TV about the Innocence Project and that's when
I really like went into overdrive because that that hit me.
This was again almost twenty five years ago, the In's
Project I just started, and one of their cases was

(01:04:30):
on TV and I was like, holy shit, that's even
worse right. This is a motherfucker who was innocent and
got sentenced to death or life in prison or whatever
it was. And I called them up. And you know,
at the time, there's only only the two founders working
there and maybe maybe I don't know, maybe they had
a receptionist or something, and so you could just call

(01:04:50):
and get them on the phone. I went in and
met with them and I set them all in and
I was and I became the founding board member. And
it's really become my life's work. I mean, I you know,
I still love music and I love my job, but um,
I love this more more than Twisted Sisters. This is
more important. Welcome. When we were in the elevator before,

(01:05:18):
I was like, tap, you were talking that you were
in Virginia, you were doing some work in Virginia, you
had a prison in Virginia before you came here yesterday. Yesterday? Yeah,
what was that? So? UM? I do you know I
have a podcast now called Wrongful Conviction, Yes you do,
And on it I interview I interview people who have

(01:05:39):
been wrongfully convicted of crimes they didn't commit. It's a
very heartbreaking podcast. I mean Remson at the end, but
it's hard here. People lose those decades. Man. Just one
story is crazier than the other. And sometimes I go
inside prison interview people who I believe to be innocent
who need to get out, UM. But also on occasion

(01:06:01):
I will and now my inbox is going to be flooded.
But you know, I only have twenty four hours in
a day like anybody else. But sometimes if I think
I can make a difference, I'll take on an individual
case that's not an innocence project case UM. Or I'll
just join a team that's already working to try to
get somebody exonerated UM and try to connect the dots
either with a with a legal team or with UM

(01:06:24):
you know, clemency UM. Which I've been successful at enough times.
You know, I was saying, I've I've seen too many
miracles to stop believing in miracles, and it is a
miracle when it works. But I've got you know, I've
been successful, uh more than a few times on taking
on the case that I see an injustice and actually
getting that person freed. Can I ask you, do you

(01:06:47):
guys work with prisoners inside of the prison like as
it's it's personal to be because I have a friend
who's been inside the New Jersey prison system for a
while now, highly educated activists in a way. And it's
funny because as he actually sent me a whole essay
about what's going on with the water system. They actually
had a whole bunch of water coming to the prison
when the water was dirty and they never used it

(01:07:09):
was bags and bags and bags and bags of water.
So he wrote this essay about how they actually had
a balloon party and the guards, you know, kind of
just poured it out at the time when we're going
through what we're going through with Puerto Rico, you know,
and so you know, he kind of felt some type
of way about that and wrote the essay. But I'm curious,
is there an opportunity for prisoners in that way organizational

(01:07:30):
wise to speak and it's hard for them to speak out,
So I don't know if you have any direction with
that to speak out about about the issues that are
going to the wrongful inside of the prison as well. Yeah,
I mean that's a whole another area that I'm not
an expert on. There definitely organizations that are devoted to that.
I know the Correctional Association in New York is one
of them. Uh, I know. New Jersey prison system is

(01:07:50):
a mother anyway, reputation all really really is there. It's
funny because I was like, in my mind, is there
a top three like states where it's like were you
want to go to? You don't want to go to jail,
so you just don't want to be there. Well, I mean,
I mean it's it's you know, look, we are in
a situation now where we have four point four percent

(01:08:14):
of the world's population, right almost four of the world's population.
We have twenty percent of the world's prison population. So
we locked people up at more than five times the
rate of the rest of the civilized world. Not you
on this one. We lock up black men in America
per capita at a rate that is six times higher
than South Africa at the height of apartheid. Okay, just

(01:08:36):
sucking chew on that for a second, and then there's women, right,
which is the fastest growing part of the prison population.
We have thirty three percent of the world's female prison population.
So what do you could what kind of conclusions can
you try? Oh my god, yeah, or in a lot
of cases, a single parent. You know, whatever it is,

(01:08:58):
it's it's still devastating into the communities, and it it
doesn't make any sense. It doesn't work, it doesn't promote
public safety, it doesn't help anything or anybody except the
private prison industry, which is only six percent of the prisons.
But still that's too much. There should be no private prisons.
And you know, prisons should be focused on rehabilitation. I mean,
first of all, we had three hundred thousand people in

(01:09:20):
prison the thirty years ago, you know what I mean,
like now at two point two million, right, including a
half a million who right now while we're sitting here
eating doughnuts and playing ping pong and talking about fucking whatever.
So there's a half a million people in jail in
America right now just because they can't post bail. And

(01:09:40):
that's another thing. I've been extremely active in his bail reform,
and that's starting to really feel like a movement now,
because you can't have a system in which we have
to we have two separate systems of justice. That's what
it comes down to. What if you have money, what
if you don't have money? And that is a violation
of the sixth Amendment and the fourteenth Amendment, equal protection
and due process and the Brown Laws. Because I feel

(01:10:02):
like this opioid epidemic is not going to provide as
many prisoners in prison as the crack pademic epidemic. I
don't know that's the reason. First of all, they're all dying,
you know what I mean, So you can't put them
in prison after their death. Somebody is selling it to him.
And it's not just in the farmers in Yeah, yeah, no,
it's it's bad. I mean, sixty four thousand opioid deaths

(01:10:22):
in America last year passed. Uhum. It became the number
one cause of death. I believe it. But I do
not think that it will have the impact impact of crack. No,
they're not gonna lock them no. Of course. Now that
goes back to like, oh, do we really even have
to say it? I mean sometimes you do. Sometimes you're
in today in unfortunately you do. Well. I would like

(01:10:44):
to ask because I feel like the Mount St. Helens
of Innocent Project poster representative. Uh, I would like to
know what your feelings are or if you even tried
to come close to anything remotely touching the case of

(01:11:07):
Philadelphia zone Uh Momia abul jamar. And do you think
that there's any chance in hell that even if his
case could be reopened and reintroduced with whatever new You know,
because I'm I've been hearing like since the nineties that

(01:11:29):
there's evidence that they wouldn't let us enter and the
da da da da da da da. But I also
know that you know, I'm a Philadelphian, especially growing up
doing the Frank Rizzo era miracle. You're here, I'm telling you,
you know, no real talk and so it's not just
for it everyone like him, but him specifically. Do you

(01:11:51):
think there's any chance whatsoever or is it just a
lost cause? And as far as people current rowing for
him and project even touch is see something that they touch? Uh?
The Innocence Project now there are fifty something instance projects
around the country. The main one is the Hub is

(01:12:13):
in New York. That's the one where I'm on the board. UM,
and we only work on DNA cases and I don't
believe his is a DNA case. I think it's a
shooting case. But um so, I haven't been directly involved
in his case, but I will say and I think
it's it's worth mentioning, and then we'll get back to
this that there was a wonderful article in Rolling Stone
magazine about a guy named Tony Wright who was on

(01:12:34):
my podcast as well. Um and I'm gona plug it
again raw conviction, but um but Tony was wrongfully convicted
and served twenty five years in prison in Pennsylvania. Um
And in the article, one of the bylines, it says,
in whatever year it was that he was arrested, a
black man had a better chance of getting justice in Philadelphia,

(01:12:55):
Mississippi than he did in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. And that was
really the case for a long time time. Now what's
interesting is and where it may pertain. And Tony's out
now and he's an amazing, amazing guy, and I encourage
you to read that article. Um. Um So, the good
news is there's a new DA in Philadelphia, um who

(01:13:18):
is elected in November, who is a former I think
he's a former civil rights lawyer. Actually he's he's a fantastic,
fantastic guy, and he is going to make based systemic
change in the way justice is is served in Philly
and and who knows, I don't know whether that will
provide uh you know, an opportunity for mo Mia to

(01:13:42):
to get out. Um, I mean not even you know,
other I have a layman's understanding of the movie Jabark
uh buljemar case. Um. But uh, you know, there's it's
certainly there's light, you know, and and it's and it's
important to know there's a there's a wonderful organization should
call the Justice and Safety Pack who are backing progressive

(01:14:04):
d as in races. Uh like that one where because
it makes such a huge difference. You now have a
Houston and in Chicago. I think you're packed again because
people need to know it's called the Justice and Safety Pack.
Uh and uh look it up, give money, get involved.
It's an incredible group. They're electing amazing people. We have

(01:14:24):
a black woman uh d a in Chicago now also
in Houston, and when they come in the difference that
it makes in so many cases is amazing because, like
we said, the prosecutors of all the power and the
Philly one kind of sucked up, but hopefully I don't know.
I don't know if oh yeah he's got he's got
serious issues, You've got big problems and and yeah, I

(01:14:45):
mean and I don't want to you know, we're not
put but yeah, they're not going to open that door
democratic door. So what would you recommend to, especially in
the the age of of of social media and how
the way that news is spread now and awareness is

(01:15:08):
spread and an alarming rate that it hasn't been done before,
what would you recommend for those that simply don't know
just small, minuscule entry ways that they can get involved
politically with helping out you know, the innocence projects in
these various uh uh organizations that help people in their situation,

(01:15:32):
Like I mean, just beyond retweeting something and you know,
like what's what's what's step two to get to there?
Because I think a lot of people just even before
meeting you, I would just think like, wow, okay, well
social justice, I'm I'm kind of interested. Yeah, but then
it's like, oh god, I don't know if I could

(01:15:52):
do that and my day job at the same time.
They're but are there ways to involve yourself that you
know it doesn't necessarily take up all the time of
your day in or is this like you just got
jump in the river and swim with piranha and snakes
and no. I mean, look, you know, I'm I'm very lucky.

(01:16:14):
I've been you know, fortunate to be successful in business
and now I can do things at my pace. I
also have a small company now used don't run big companies,
so I have more time. Um and uh, you know,
and you know, and ultimately it's it makes me, It
makes me feel good. I call it selfish altruism, you know.
I mean, I like helping people, and I like helping

(01:16:35):
the helpless. And I can't imagine anyone more helpless than
someone who's stuck in our goolag system for a crime
they didn't commit. And so if I can, if I
can make a difference in that way, then that you
know that I don't know, like I actually you know,
I had this thought yesterday. I spent the day in
a maximum security prison in Virginia yesterday and I was leaving,
I was like, you know what, there's nowhere else I

(01:16:56):
would have rather been. You know, I could be playing
golf and pebble be each or doing this. I could
be doing whatever the funk I want, but it was.
It was an amazing, amazing experience. I met with two
guys who I'm helping. One of them has been in
for thirty one and a half years for a crime
that he had nothing to do with and DNA proves
it um and uh, you know, and the other guy

(01:17:17):
has been in for ten um and and it's a
very interesting and complicated case. But you know, I'm I'm
going to make a difference in these two people's lives.
And he proved that he had nothing to do it,
and he still looked nothing to do with it. I mean,
it's amazing. Uh. But but there's there's light at the
end of the tunnel there too. And he's an amazing guy.
He he's a he teaches tai chi and meditation, has

(01:17:39):
written seven books. He's like, uh, he's a brilliant guy
on top of everything else. Um. His name is Yen
Stirring j E N S s O E r I
n G. There's a movie about him called The Promise UM,
and there's gonna be a big piece on in December
about his case. But so how you can get involved
is I mean, the first thing to do is go

(01:17:59):
to go to website, I mean, go to Innocence project
dot org. Um, you know, or visit your local innocence
project website. There's gonna be a section that says how
to get involved. You can write letters, you know, people
the politicians actually pay attention when you write letters. You know,
letters are better than emails. But you can write emails.
You could get on these mailing lists. You can, um,
you can create a page. You can you can write

(01:18:21):
the inmates too. I mean that's a that's a great
Whenever I speak to these guys, it means so much
to them that anybody gives a fuck enough to write
a letter to be surprised. And once you start you
can email. So it isn't that that deep, you know
what I mean? People are scared of letters. Yes, that's true.
It's it's a lost art. My mom used to write
letters like crazy. But anyway, um, she write a letter,
what's the lasting a prisoner? So but down they have

(01:18:47):
the email system, so I'm winning they do. Oh they
can links, you can jp different places, but uh and
then you know, uh, and then the other thing is
you can ganize an event. I mean you can contact
the local organization and you know organized invite your friends

(01:19:07):
over and do a um you know, maybe even get
an unarie or or just uh you know, get somebody
to come in and speak or you know, contact the
local UM. You know, there's organizations all over the country
doing this kind of work, and now that there's Google,
it's really there's really no excuse not to find out
about it and get involved uh work too. That's I
was going to say, under this umbrella of mass and

(01:19:28):
car serration and all the issues that exists underneath, because
in my mind, wrongful uh car wrongful imprisonment is one
of them. But what do you think are like some
of the other issues underneath that umbrella that people who
may need to be concerned about outside of that, Like, well,
there's so many. I mean, for me, I've been deeply
involved in bail reform. Um. I think that's so important

(01:19:49):
because you know, locking people up when we don't know
if they're guilty, just because they can't pay it should
be an affront to everybody's humanity. And what people don't
understand is that jails in this country, most of them,
are worse than the worst maximum security prisons. And the
reason and people think jail so jails and you when

(01:20:11):
you talk to the people that I talked to on
my show, um, most of them will say that they
like even one guy had on recently, Ryan Ferguson, he
was saying that if he had to go back to
maximum security prison or jail, he said, I take two
years in maximum security prison over one year in jail.
Tell the different because everybody doesn't know the difference between
so jail. You go to jail when you're awaiting trial.

(01:20:31):
And for instance in New York City, Rikers Island has
become infamous. Right, there's so much that's jail. It's a jail,
it's not a prison, right, So in jail there is
no there's no recreation. In most jails, they're basically buildings
where you you can be in your cell twenty four
hours a day with seven eight other people twenty four
hours a day. The lights don't go off in a

(01:20:51):
lot of jails, right, And it's just a pressure cooker
of insanity. And you have innocent people, guilty people, violent people.
We don't know who is who. They're all just thrown
in there together just because you can't post the fucking bail.
By the way, do you know that if you get
caught in New York City and you get taken to
rikers and they go, your bail's five and you're like, okay,

(01:21:13):
but I got five with me and they're like, well,
where is it that you guys took my It's in
the locker. They're like, you're gonna just get it out
of locker. They're like, no, you can't get it out
of the locker, not until you're out, until your freed.
So wait, so I got the money, but I can't
pot No, you can't post it right. And by the way,
one thing I'll say to anybody if you get arrested,
remember phone numbers. We think about that. You go in,

(01:21:33):
you get a phone call, you don't have your phone,
they took it. You gotta remember to call your mom
or whoever it is that's gonna answer the damn phone.
Remember fucking phone numbers, because if you don't, you're gonna
be stuck. And who remembers phone numbers? Think about it, right,
I mean, nobody needs to remember phone numbers anymore. So
that's an important I'm gonna say some real ship right now,

(01:21:55):
go for it. I don't know my number phone number,
I don't know your own number. You know, you don't
know your own phone number. You don't know I have
four phones, but my home number, I don't know that.
Ship you know your phone number, you are right, Like
if I don't have my cell phone, I wouldn't know
nobody's paragraph you just gave us. That's almost everybody. Like, No,

(01:22:17):
I got like a few you know your mom's number
I got after like two thousand two, I don't. I
don't know it. Yeah, yeah, any all my new contexts,
but yeah, my mom, my wife, like my my homie,
like Nicolai, um, yeah, you know it's number. I got
Nick's numbers, numbers, numbers. I want to I want to

(01:22:37):
memorize your number. The person I'm calling it anyway, who
said you're gonna be wrongfully convicted though, no, you're you're arrested.
Do you think do you think there's any chance in
hell of us ever repealing the definitely? Yeah. I think
there's a chance of it's repealing the death penalty. And
I think it's one of the reasons I actually, I'm
really it's very gratifying to me because I'll get sometimes

(01:23:00):
a direct message or something from somebody message on Facebook, whatever,
but I don't really use Facebook that much. I'm on Instagram.
Instagram is my ship. By the way, at is Jason Flom.
I gotta plug that laugh. I'll make you cry. I
guarantee it. At is Jason Flom follow me so Um,
but yeah, I'll get messages from people saying, you know,
I used to believe in the death penalty, but now
that I hear on your podcast about all these wrongful convictions,

(01:23:22):
I realized it happens. You know, We've had twenty one
DNA exonerations from death row, you know. And I say
to anybody who believes in the death penalty, which I don't.
If you believe in the death penalty, then you're saying
that you're okay with sometimes executing innocent people, then you're
okay with that. I just want to make sure you're
okay with that. Right. We executed an innocent guy in America, oh,

(01:23:44):
two months ago and um in Arkansas, the deli innocent
as the day is long. The DNA proved that and
they executed him anyway, and you know, um, he was
a client of ours. Can I ask what is your will?
I know it moves in the snail space depending on
what state you're dealing with it and trying to get

(01:24:07):
them exonary. But what is your your annual average of
turning these cases around? Well, that's a hard question to answer,
because there's innocence projects all over the country, like I said,
affiliated with different law schools. Um there and there's innocence
projects in forty three states, I think, um and UM,

(01:24:29):
there are. There's more exonerations every year. I think. I
don't know the exact number last year, but I think
it was might have been a couple of hundred nationally.
Um it's not enough because if you think about it,
the best estimates are that somewhere between four and seven
percent of the people in prison in America, not including jail,

(01:24:49):
right are are innocent. Right, So that sounds a lot
like about a hundred thousand people that are innocent in
prison right now while we're sitting here. And like I said,
I'm not talking about jail, jail. A huge percentage of
people in jail in Becau I haven't even tried yet.
And so you know, and that's the thing, like I said,
that whole ship, the death penalty has to go away,
Like fucking civilized countries don't excellent execute people and we're

(01:25:11):
in the top five behind like China, ran North Korea,
and um, I don't know Pakistan's. It's not a good
group to be in, you know what I'm saying. Of course,
now we're the only country in the world that's not
in the Paris Agreement, right, Syria actually signed on yesterday. Syria.
I was about to ask you was was the what
do you think of the top issues with us in

(01:25:32):
having Trump in here in reference to the work that
you do? Yeah, yeah, it's all Yeah, how how does
the Innocence Project raise money? Like I'm figuring that you
guys would in order to keep up with the thousands
and thousands and thousands of cases that you have to

(01:25:55):
deal with. You know that there's less people on the
Innocence Project side of the fence to help the amount
of prisoners that you know are coming to you guys
for these for for help. So yeah, I mean we
raise money from individuals, um and foundations. That's what we do,
and um, you know, every little bit helps. The more

(01:26:17):
money that comes in. It is a not for profit,
donations are tax deductible, and um, you know, the more
money that comes in, the more more difference we can make.
Not only the individual cases, but also in creating systemic
changes and how everything from lineups are conducted to forensics
to um, you know, to UH. There's so many changes

(01:26:41):
that have to be made in the way the interrogations
are done, right, I mean everything videotaping mandatory video tape
of interrogation in New York State just passed that finally, right,
we didn't have that. New York City just passed it. Yeah,
shout out to Cuomo for that one. But yeah, I
mean that's that's it's so crazy, right, It's just him
on the first forty eight yet yeah, it's it's I mean, look,

(01:27:03):
we were also the second and last state to UH
to stop treating juveniles putting juveniles on adult prisons, you know,
like it was only US and I think South Carolina
were the last two. Yeah, Gooden was an adult prisons
And yeah, and back to the jail thing. The jail,
the jail thing. They're so dangerous, I mean, Clif Brouter,
anybody you know what I meant in peace, I mean,

(01:27:25):
and then there are others, I mean, and my my
thing is to try to prevent that from happening. I
started the thing in the Bronx called the Freedom Fund,
which was the first bail fund in the country. Which
basically how that works is I raised the money. My
dad actually put up half the money to start it
when I when I went to him with the idea,
and um, I put the money in the hands of
the lawyers at the Bronx Defenders, which is a great organization,

(01:27:46):
and they post bail for their own clients and misdemeanor cases.
So it was it was an innovative idea. It seemed
common sensical. Later, No, no, the money comes back when
you when they show it for court. And by the way,
nineties seven percent of our clients show up for every
court date. We have a higher percentage of people showing
up than people who actually have to pay money if
they don't. Right, So that whole arguments out the window

(01:28:08):
that we need money bailed to make sure people show up.
You know what they do, they show up. We send
them a text message. They don't forget, you know what
I mean, And that's how they show up and they
show up and then usually their cases are dismissed because
if they have you in jail, you got to plead
guilty or you ain't going home. So but if you're out.
They just they're a good prosecuting. You have to plead
guilty or else you ain't going home. Think about that, right,

(01:28:31):
you're gonna you're gonna be in jail for you want
to stay in Rikers for a week, two weeks waiting
for your your court date. And and by the way,
sometimes you'll go to court and the prosecutor will say, well,
you know, we're really not ready for this case, your honor,
And the judge says, okay, come back in three weeks.
What else can he say? So if you're saying that
I'm not guilty, then I'm doing that time in Rikers

(01:28:51):
until and a lot of people will end up serving
more time in Rikers than they would have served if
they were guilty. Wait, okay, I gotta way ask a
fourth time. So you're saying, okay, let's say I did
jump a turnstop and I get arrested and taken to Well,
you go downtown first before you go to Rikers. I
assume it depends. Where is there such a thing as downtown?

(01:29:13):
Is that just television New York Downtown? There's the tombs,
But almost everybody goes to Rikers. Okay, the way it
don't sound fun. Yeah, I learned also, don't do anything
on Thursday or Friday. Yes, so you're saying that once
they're in process. If I say that I'm innocent and

(01:29:35):
you got the wrong person, I'm staying in Rikers. That's
what happened to Caliph Browner. He was there for three
years awaiting trial. Three years, I mean, and then they
dropped the charges. You know that, right, they dropped the
chargers after three years. I don't even like to think
about him because no, I mean, and and he ain't
the last one. There was this case with Pedro m Hernandez.

(01:30:00):
I was in court when his when the charge some
of the charges were dropped. Um. He was he was
in for a year UM awaiting trial, and he was
a valedictorian in his class in Rikers Island, and I
was offered a college scholarship and they were trying to
keep him in there, um you know, so that he
would miss his college UM. But he just got out.
But yeah, his case is horrible too. Like so for

(01:30:21):
those that are wrongfully convicted, UM do you guys also
work on making sure that the state UM makes up
for any wrong convictions or wrongdoing as far as like
monetary emotions and those things, and what's the what's the
likelihood of because I'm thinking about the Central Park fact,

(01:30:45):
you know, just what they say, but even then it's
like so mentally funked up from there from there, So
I'm I'm asking, I'm asking about, like, you know, mental
health and all those things. Is that even thought about
an now or is that just like a uh, you know,

(01:31:07):
the lost cost to even think that your mental health
of exonore's yeah, yeah, I mean it's something that I've
been very focused on. Um I uh, you know, I
started a thing called the Life After Exoneration Program UM
at the Innocence Project and also the thing that's become
the Innocence Network Conference, which is there's as a group

(01:31:28):
every year we bring together a lot of exonores. Last
year had two hundred in the same room who collectively
had served over thirty six hundred years in prison. Um
and uh and and it's all for healing and and
you know, adapting and reintegrating into society because I feel
the same way you do, like what do we do
for these people when they we've you know, we've wronged

(01:31:48):
them so much, and you know, when they get out
they get a bust ticket basically in forty dollars in
a lot of cases, and and you know sometimes not
even an apology and um, and then if they sue.
You know, thirty states have compensation statutes and twenty don't.
And you know New York, one of the New York does.
Um and then um, you know, even the even the

(01:32:10):
states that do have very very different you know levels
that you can you can get. Um. You know some
of them are so shockingly low that you would be embarrassed.
But um, that's something we've been working on changing and getting.
You know, we actually managed to get a very good
bill passed in Texas, of all places, So in Texas

(01:32:30):
you get now I can't remember. I think it's it's
fifty or eighty thousand a year for every year were
locked up, plus an annuity of an equal amount. So
it's not a fortune, but at least it's something to
start your life again, because a lot of these people
come out after ten, fift twenty thirty years in prison
and good luck getting a job. Right, what are you
gonna do? You don't know how to do. I've never

(01:32:52):
seen a phone, I mean, like, and so you know,
we are you know we are working on on that. Um,
amaze singly, you know, the spirit of these people is
so strong. I guess the ones that collapse never get out,
you know. And and I'll talk to the Exonorees and
I'm like, I'm always amazed at how they don't show

(01:33:14):
any signs of bitterness, you know. And it's but it's
it's it's true, and it's incredible. You know, not every
single one, but almost every single one has this like
state of grace that they're in where they've just let
go and they're you know, they'll say things like I
don't want to live in the past. I can't change
the past. I want to move forward. I want to

(01:33:35):
live every day of my life is you know, like
I can't. You know what am I gonna do? Walk
around being bitter and it's not gonna help me? You know.
It's like that's where they say bitterness is a pill
you take hoping to make somebody else sick. Right. But
the fact is, Um, there are a lot of things
that we're putting in place all over you know, I
mean that are that are designed to help exonore You

(01:33:57):
know what's crazy, love is that if you are guilty
of a crime, and you serve your time, and you
proll out, you get a prole officer, and you get
certain services that are designed to help you get back
into society. They don't always work. You don't get it
if if you're innocent, getting nothing, and even if you sue,

(01:34:17):
and even if you're able to sue. And you look
how long it took to Center Part five to get paid, right,
I mean Central Part five. You were a kid growing
up when that ship happened. Right now, they just got
paid what was it like a year ago? And it's
worth mentioning that Trump took out ads at the time
of their arrest calling for all of them to be executed.
He spent a bunch of money on all the newspapers
in New York saying these guys should be executed. And
of course he still says they're guilty because he knows

(01:34:39):
these things. And the first, um, you know, the first
episode of my podcast, I actually interviewed Raymond Santana. Um.
It's a really powerful episode. And I've done I've done, uh,
you know, I do a lot of speaking. Um. And
I did a speech with him at the Nantucket Project,
which you can actually look up online. If you just
google my name and Nantucket project, um where I interviewed

(01:35:02):
him on stage, and he's extraordinary. I mean, that story
is extraordinary. I have one more question, and I know
it's weird to ask, but because a lot of these uh,
a lot of the people that you're releasing, some of
them have seven decades and you know, three, two, three,

(01:35:26):
four decades, I assume, Um, I got out in New
Orleans this week after forty six years. I was going
this week, I was gonna say, Wilbur Jones, how old
I don't even know how old he is, forty five
or sixty five. He went in in seventy one. Yeah, yeah,

(01:35:49):
So I was gonna say that. I have a couple
of friends in Philadelphia that were caught up in the system,
and I coming out of jail. It was so frightening
for them that it was almost like the feeling of
you going to jail, and to the point that two

(01:36:10):
of those three basically told their families like, look, I'm
gonna uh, I'm not gonna go see my my my built,
my parole officer because I don't know anything in this world,
like I gotta go back. I mean, it's kind of
some weird Stockholm. Yeah, so like what's what are the

(01:36:32):
cases of those that you get out and may come
out and they're just like I have nothing to live for,
Like I my whole world is inside of that prison,
and one you know, willingly want to go back because
I know that that happens a lot. You know, I've
heard that happens. It happened in the Shawshack Redemption, right,
but movies. But um, I haven't seen so not even

(01:36:58):
one of these that maybe I don't want to do that.
Probably that might be. That might be the distinction. It's
a psychological you know, phenomenon. But yeah, it's it's getting
out is another punishment, you know, when they come out
and we make it so difficult for them to get compensated.

(01:37:18):
It takes years, um, even in the cases where it's successful.
And you know, I've taken it as my you know, uh,
one of my missions to try to help bridge that
gap when I can, because you know, these people deserve
I mean, they got everything coming to them and they
get nothing, you know, like we owe them as a

(01:37:40):
society and everything. It's it's like, there should be free
education for these people, there should be housing, there should
be you know, it's nuts. Like it's just I don't know,
have you been able to uh honor any of your roster,
any of your kind of celebrity friends to not just
be a voice we kind of get involved as well. Um,

(01:38:03):
none of the none of the ones that I work
directly with, have gotten involved on any deep level. I mean, like,
do they know of your work, of your kind of
Clark Kent Superman life for it? Do I look like
someone who knows how to shut up because he might
have be mixed up with some other guy? But no,
I yeah, I mean I'm proselytizing this stuff all the time.

(01:38:24):
Like I said, I promoted on my Instagram and anybody
who follows me knows that. And then I you know,
and I also talked about it to anybody that will listen,
and you know, and it is amazing. I mean, the
you know, social media has been really helpful and for
me in getting that word out, but it hasn't yet.
I mean, and look a lot of people some people
are just not you know, the people. I think in

(01:38:45):
their thirties is usually when people start to become interested
in really making it different something else. I mean, you know,
I mean, you know, look Scooter Braun. Interesting, Right, here's
a guy who's top of the world and he's now
look what he's doing right with these kind SERTs um
Manchester thing and the hurricane relief. I mean he's become
that guy in his mid thirties where he's like, um,

(01:39:09):
it hits you that it hits you at some point
that you have a higher purpose. And I don't mean
that in a religious way. It's just like you have,
you know, you have a calling. I mean we're here,
We're here to be our brother's keepers. And that's the
way it is, you know, like and and it doesn't
make any sense to fight that feeling, like just go
with it. I mean, look, some people have working three
jobs just to put food on the table. They don't
have time. But you know, it's that old thing. If

(01:39:30):
you're up to your asset alligators, it's hard to remember
to dream the swamp. But you know, if you got
if you got yours, then get off your ass and
go find your ship. Like it's it's give. It makes
me so fucking happy to be able to make this difference.
It's it's nuts. I mean, like I feel I feel lucky,
you know, to be in a position to be able

(01:39:50):
to to do this and to have found something that
really touches me and and makes me want to do
more every day. Well, man, we thank you for fighting
a good and hopefully that'll inspire listeners to uh you know,
get involved as well. And we are lucky to have
you to have you. Thank you, Thank you. This Sence

(01:40:11):
project dot org. Everybody, Yes, it's Jason Flam Instagram. Just
follow him. It's I'm a followbacker. Let me no, no, now,
thousand people anyway, you follow me back? What is this guy? Fullshit?
We have that so let's right now. Many questions are

(01:40:33):
you serious? Second coming to Okay, No, they weren't a
second coming to you. I'm just saying no. The matchbox
was like twenty years before, ten years before. Listen, just
let him have this, give me give me a three
match box questions? Um, then where it's obviously okay, matchbuster? Okay,
Rob Thomas, I don't know where I start. Okay, just yourself, someone,

(01:40:56):
just yourself, of someone like you. That was the album
with three Am on it, right, Okay, so much, so
much because it's just like me trying to freestyle. Man,
I don't know what it's Okay, Rob Thomas. So it
was that one. He had three ammals on that record. Um.
And then what was the big big record, Push Push
Push everywhere everywhere? How do you not know it? Yeah?

(01:41:20):
That records everywhere? Okay, So then the Santana thing happened.
How did did that affect the group at all? Like,
once he had that huge record, once smooth came out smoothly,
that messed up group dynamics with robbing the rest of
the guys. Oh, that's a good question. I never really
thought of it that way. And I don't know. I
think it's hard. You know, it's hard to figure out

(01:41:40):
the cause in the effect. But you know, it seems
like something like that will affected dynamic one way or another. Right,
it's always kind of just robbing the other guys, that
wasn't it. Yeah, I didn't know. And yeah, I mean, yeah,
Rob's that guy. I mean. And then Sugar Ray. Whose
idea was it to put super Cat on something? Yeah?
I think that was the producer David Kahn um who

(01:42:03):
had that idea. David con produce him. Yeah, David Kahn
damn that he produced fish. Yeah it was strange, you
wouldn't think, right, but yeah, he produced fly. I did
not know that that was fun. That Okay, that's cool.
Don't have any co pay questions, man, because okay, cold Play,
I don't. Actually I only work with them for a minute,

(01:42:25):
so I don't know, Like I literally okay on this show.
And I didn't even work with them. I met them.
They were just happy to be signed to the label
I was running. But you know, I was only I
was only there for a whatever, a couple of years.
And yeah, they were, they were doing they were the
stratosphere already. I get zero credit for that, okay, when
all were now, I was setting them for your your music,

(01:42:48):
your music career. What's the one achievement where you're just
like me, I did that like to yourself, you know,
your humble brag moment to yourself inside that you're gonna
cast on Pandora in the music business. Yeah, in the
music business. I mean, it's funny because the one thing
we didn't even talk about is one of my proudest accomplishments,

(01:43:09):
which is Transliberian Orchestra you know, because yeah, I mean
Translaporian Orchestra was It was a crazy, craziest story. You know.
I had signed this metal group called Sabotage, not because
I want to do it, because the guy was hanging
out with back in those days would wouldn't leave me alone.
And so you know, I don't even really like metal music,
but I like hard rock. But anyway, they had fallen

(01:43:31):
out of favor, and you know, we're really I was.
I actually dropped them in nineties six because they weren't
doing anything. And then one day their lawyer and Nick Ferrara,
calls me on the phone and says, did you know
the w PLJ is gonna add Sabotage tomorrow? And I said,
do you know you must be the single dumbest lawyer
in America. Do you think we can't even get that

(01:43:53):
ship played on metal stations anymore? College stations won't even
playing what are you talking about? P LJ was the
biggest station of the country back then, do you remember.
And so next day, Scott Shannon, this was December eleventh
of nineties six, Scott Channon plays the last song on
the Sabotage album, and not only does he play it,
he reads the liner notes um and he goes into

(01:44:16):
a whole thing about how this is the most powerful
piece of music, and and every store in New York
blows out right, like people are calling the stores are
calling us, gonna, where's the record? We need more of
these records. I'm We're like, we don't even know, like
we don't have any We dropped the band. And then
Scott starts calling other radio stations saying, this is the
biggest thing I've ever seen at it, right, and all
these other stations called calling us saying, so it turns

(01:44:36):
out they had put a Christmas song on a metal album, right,
who does that? That was the last song was Carola
the Bells, done with metal guitars and an orchestra like members.
There was four members in Sabotage, but the fifth guy
was really the producer, who was the guy Nam Paul
O'Neil who sadly died this year. And so he he
had made this record done then and and then then

(01:44:58):
and and then then with the good metal guitars, and
no no no no no no no no no. It
was the strings right down then and then and then
then the guitar no no no no no no no no,
and for whatever reason, it was pure magic. Right, So
we start shipping and pressing these records and send him
out as fast as we can making copies for the
radio stations, and because we still own the master eve
though we had dropped the band. And then in January

(01:45:19):
I called Paul and you and I go, Paul, people
love this record, but they hate sabotage. So I said,
here's what I want you to do. Take that song,
don't mix it, don't fix it, don't edit it, don't
do a fucking thing to it, because it's perfect, and
make a whole album of songs just like that. Give
it a nice Christmas e name, and I'll sell millions

(01:45:41):
for you. So he calls me up a couple of
weeks later, he goes, what do you think about trans
Siberian Orchestra? Go, what the fun do I know? I'm Jewish?
I don't know. I think about if you make an
off col so so he So we called the Trans
Siberian Orchestra and it became the biggest Christmas artist in
the history of the world. Yeah, yeah, yeah, unfortunately that's

(01:46:01):
not me, but whatever, but so yeah, So that was
really fun because it was so difficult to break that act.
That one in kid rock, really with the hardest and
in spite of the current things that are going on,
it was so much fun breaking kid rock. Looking back,
it was just nobody was on that guy. I mean,
it was like everybody was against him. Did you, Um,
you said you want to sign too. He's the one

(01:46:22):
that broke on the golf course. You didn't get to
sign too, were you with Virgin Uh? With the Perfect
Circle group? No, I didn't. I don't think they made
any records while I was there, so they may have
been signed there, but I never got to deal with that.
I did try to sign him as a solo artist
as well, and that didn't work out either. So yeah,
that was Perfect Circle, right. I tried to sign Perfect
Circle so he he uh, he left me at the

(01:46:43):
altar twice. You know, I was still a fan he
So yeah, I think those those were the most fun.
I mean, I'm super proud of Tory Amos because I
think she's had a really impact on music and culture. Um,
there's a lot we didn't mention. We didn't get to
talk about Lord or Jesse j or. I didn't even
ask for Dianzel Little Nightmare story. Oh we already have

(01:47:07):
plenty of those. All right. I think we got all
our questions out. We thank you very much for coming
on the show. Oh my god. Yes, well we finished
credit and we started considering. I've garbled my wrap. Yeah,
we have of Boss Bill, Unpaid, Bill Sugar, Steve Fan
Takeolo and it's like Leite, It's Lee or Cohen. No,

(01:47:33):
it's like this is Quest Love signing on. Thank you
very much Jason for joining us, and so let's keep
too right. Make sure make sure signs released for him too.
We will see you next week on Next Go Around.
Quest Love Supreme on Door. What's Love Supreme is a

(01:47:57):
production of Heart Radio. This class sing episode was produced
by the team at Pandora. For more podcasts from My
heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.