November 28, 2025 • 48 mins
Human Events on Real America's Voice
Segment A: The Toxic Psychology of Tyler Robinson, Part 1
Segment B: The Toxic Psychology of Tyler Robinson, Part 2
Segment C: The Toxic Psychology of Tyler Robinson, Part 3
Segment D: The Toxic Psychology of Tyler Robinson, Part 4
Segment E: The Toxic Psychology of Tyler Robinson, Part 5
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
This is what happens when the fourth Turning meets fifth
generation warfare.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
A.
Speaker 3 (00:14):
Commentator, international social media sensation, and form a Navy intelligence veteran.
Speaker 4 (00:20):
This is Human Events with your host Jack Posovic.
Speaker 3 (00:23):
Christ Is King Stember tenth twenty twenty five, twenty two
year old Tyler Robinson decided he wouldn't be attending his
electrical apprenticeship program at Dixie Technical College. At eight twenty three,
he walked to his gray Dodge Challenger, and a little
while later he drove off to Utah Valley University. Three
hours after that, at eleven forty nine, he exited his car,
(00:44):
wearing a different set of clothes, a cap, dark sunglasses,
and visibly limping toward the parking lot adjacent to the
UVU campus. He walked up the parking lot stairs, headed
to the low Cea Center, and then was nowhere to
be seen. Meanwhile, Conservative speaker Charlie Kirk was hosting one
of his debate events on campus, roughly two hundred yards
away from where Tyler was. At exactly twelve twenty three,
(01:06):
a single shots rang out, piercing the left side of
Kirk's throat, sending the entire campus into chaos. To add
to the already extremely tragic situation, CCTV footage showed Tyler,
then unknown to the authorities, fleeing the scene and successfully
evading capture. Tyler's father, Matt, saw the pictures of the
killer on the news. To his unimaginable shock, he saw
(01:28):
his son being reported about on national television for having
murdered Charlie Kirk. Despite his utter shock and disbelief, Matt
went to his son and simply asked him, Tyler, is
this you? This looks like you. Tyler immediately confessed. Soon
after his capture, Tyler went completely silent and has refused
to cooperate with the police. While the roommate was initially anonymous,
(01:51):
that didn't last long as a neighbor of Tyler's came
forward to speak with the media and some pretty interesting
things were said when the topic came up, and the
neighbor claims to have witnessed them together. Were they holding hands?
Speaker 5 (02:03):
Uh, yeah they were?
Speaker 6 (02:04):
And yeah, yeah.
Speaker 7 (02:07):
There's some published reports out there that this individual the roommate,
may have been transistent in and did that correlate with
what you saw?
Speaker 5 (02:16):
Yeah, definitely. I remember them talking about a doctor's payment.
Speaker 3 (02:20):
An unknown source in law enforcement had already attested to
the same story, and with this much scrutiny and attention
on something, keeping this person's name a secret was basically impossible. Eventually,
people found Tyler's Venmo account, where one name stood out,
Lance Twigs, Ladies.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
And welcome aboard today's edition of Human Events Daily. We've
got a special episode for you today. Now, if you
saw the previous episode, I would like you to go
back and watch that if you haven't, because we're going
to be making references to that episode. We're going to
make me talking about Tyler Robinson and these leaks that
came out from a former roommate friend whistleblower to the
(03:00):
YouTube account Turkey Tom, and these messages describe in great
detail the strange and toxic relationship between Lance Twiggs and
Tyler Robinson. And so Liz Wheeler and myself, and yesterday's episode,
the previous episode went through in great detail those leaks,
(03:21):
those sentences, those phrases we pulled out.
Speaker 5 (03:24):
What could they all mean?
Speaker 1 (03:25):
We corroborated that with other information, and so I would
encourage you to go and check out that episode before
you listen to this episode. But we make references as
much of it as you can. What are we doing
today today, We've got a very special guest on. It's
doctor Chloe Carmichael. She's a clinical psychologist. That was their
(03:48):
twisted world. Today we're going into the toxic psychology the
mind of Tyler Robinson.
Speaker 5 (03:56):
And as we do that, I'm.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
Sitting here in the original Charlie Kirk studio right now,
this desk right here, this is the desk where Charlie
launched his show.
Speaker 5 (04:07):
This microphone was Charlie's microphone.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
This is where it all began, when the Charlie Kirk Show,
and Charlie and I sat in this room and debating
and planning and scheming and doing it all. And now
he's not here. He's not going to be coming back.
(04:31):
And what was done to Erica and their children, Charlie's family,
It's an unspeakable evil. It's an unspeakable evil, one that
will never go away. No more bedtime stories, little girl
(04:53):
who will never be picked up by her father again, little.
Speaker 5 (04:57):
Boy who will never get tied ad.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
How to throw football, how to make a half court shot, no,
how to throw a baseball, none of that, And that
was all robbed by Tyler Robinson.
Speaker 5 (05:13):
It was robbed from them.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
Every single moment of every single day that Charlie could.
Speaker 5 (05:21):
Have spent with his family was taken from them, and
that creates a debt.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
That creates a debt ladies and gentlemen, and look not
to make it personal, but like I said, I'm here
in his studio, Charlie's my friend, and I suppose in
a way this is one of the ways that I
deal with things.
Speaker 5 (05:48):
Like this is I get to the bottom of it.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
I want to unpack every single piece of it that
I can. I want to dig in through every shadow,
open every closed door, look under every rock to try
to understand not just from the security perspective, the security
failures and the campus and all the rest of it,
(06:12):
but even the individuals and even the psychological situations, what
would drive someone to do this, And potentially maybe then
we can even learn how do we stop the next
person who wants to be a Tyler Robinson or a
Thomas Matthew Crooks or a Luigi man Gioni.
Speaker 5 (06:36):
So you know, I don't.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
Usually talk about it, but that's why I do what
I do, because if we don't stop them, they will
not stop on their own.
Speaker 5 (06:46):
Right back, Jack the SOVIC Human Events Daily. All right,
Jack Pacific, we're back.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
We're going through the strange case of Tyler Robinson and
Lance Twiggs.
Speaker 5 (07:12):
This is part two.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
We're now conducting the analysis of all of this. And
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Speaker 2 (08:37):
On September tenth, twenty twenty five, the roommate received a
text message from Robinson which said, drop what you're doing,
look under my keyboard. The roommate looked under the keyboard
and found a note that stated quote, I had the
opportunity to take out Charlie Kirk, and I'm going to
take it.
Speaker 5 (08:58):
So I want to bring on now.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
Very honored and excited to have doctor Chloe Carmichael joining us.
Speaker 5 (09:04):
She's read through all of this. She's also an expert
on this, really this emerging field, I would say, and
I wanted to get her in to explain. Doctor Chloe,
how are.
Speaker 4 (09:15):
You, hey, Dak great to be with you.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
So we're and just like everyone else, we see these leaks.
We see this and I'm just gonna call it as
it seems like a toxic relationship, you know, and caveats.
You know that that we do believe these leaks are corroborated,
that Turkey Tom has photos of the individuals together, of
his source, et cetera. We do know that other photos
(09:39):
from inside were corroborated to be at the home that
Lance Twiggs and Tyler Robinson were living at.
Speaker 5 (09:46):
And I guess, doctor Chloe, let's.
Speaker 1 (09:49):
Imagine, you know, imagine these two were in front of
you for some relationship therapy. What what would your diagnosis
be just reading through some of this.
Speaker 8 (10:01):
Wow, I mean, that's a that's a big question, Jack,
if these two were in front of me for some
kind of relationship therapy. I mean, I think one of
the first things that I would just need to understand
is what is their belief about the nature of their relationship.
From what I understand, Lance Twiggs believed himself to be transitioning,
(10:25):
you know, from a man into a woman. And you know,
apparently maybe Tyler Robinson might have been what we would
call colluding. And we used to call it a folly
audeu in psychology when you have two people that are
participating in the same delusion together. So I would be
(10:47):
interested to understand some of the very basic underpinnings of
how they viewed their relationship in the first place, because
especially since it appears that Tyler he that shot was
fire at the very first trans question that was posed
to Charlie Kirk. So I think the question of understanding,
(11:07):
you know, what exactly they believe themselves to be and
what trans meant to them might be important.
Speaker 5 (11:14):
And I think that's exactly right.
Speaker 1 (11:15):
And you know, as we try to piece this apart,
and of course, you know, I'll say it, you know,
for you, of course, we're you know, we're looking at
this from miles away, and we're looking at this from afar,
so trying to understand and unpack given the very limited evidence.
Speaker 5 (11:31):
That we do have.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
You, of course clinical psychologists, but you have not been
able to treat either of these individuals. Of course, one
is in is in prison. One is either in hiding
or some form of witness protection. But you know, for me,
I'll just put it this way. I'm I'm sitting right here.
This is the Charlie Kirk Studio. This is the desk
that I'm sitting at right now. This is the microphone
(11:55):
where he launched the Charlie Kirk Show. I sat here
in here with him so many times, and he's he's
not going to be coming back because of what happened.
And the evidence points to the individual Heller as being
the one on the roof who did this, who etched
into the bullets, the messages towards his his you know
(12:16):
who he viewed as his oppressor, but a guy who's
my friend and who was the husband of my friend
Erica and the father to two small children. So I
think it's incumbent on us and really as a country,
to understand why that happened and understand what drove them
to this act. And I think when you and I
were talking about this before, I remember you had said
(12:37):
that it.
Speaker 5 (12:37):
Almost seemed like.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
Like Tyler may have been doing this as a form
of acting out of romance romance or the idea that
he was trying to protect twigs. I'm reading through some
of these new leaks and I'm wondering, do you think
there could be an angle where he was almost trying
to impress Twigs by doing this, because we do see
that the friend here in these leaks is saying that
(13:00):
Tyler was not particularly you know, sexually experienced. He was
also not particularly politically experienced, but he knew that Twiggs was.
So I wonder if this was a way for him,
in his perspective, to try to think that he was
impressing his his lover here.
Speaker 8 (13:16):
Yeah, absolutely, Jack, And I think I've heard you use
the phrase white nighting before which to describe this, which
I think comes into play as well. You know, if
Tyler Robinson fancied himself, you know, as some kind of
a hero here. Because at this particular developmental age as well,
(13:37):
these are very young men there. In a way, they're
still kind of in a late form of adolescence, and
that's a stage when they can really be craving and
seeking social approval and social acceptance. They can be trying
on a lot of different identities, and you know, I
think from things that both of them have expressed online,
(14:00):
they may have even fallen prey to some of this
extreme vilification of straight white men, especially you know, conservative
straight white men, and so trying to really differentiate themselves
from that identity as they try to seek out their
own adult identity. You know, it seems like there could
(14:22):
be a little bit of a goal there as far
as you know, becoming the white Knight, but in a
little bit of a twisted sense of what it means
to be a white Knight.
Speaker 5 (14:33):
And that's right.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
And so when you're when they're attempting to be you know,
or you know, if this is true, he's attempting to
be this white knight, he's thinking, I want to impress
my my lover. I want to you know, gain status,
gainstanding in his eyes, because it does seem like he's
been you know, he's putting this relationship and putting this identity,
(14:57):
as you say, ahead of you know, my gosh, all
things like basic human decency and morality and your sort
of your normal social structures. And so one thing that
I learned, I guess, I would say, serving at Guantanamo
Bay for a year, which I did and working in
the interrogation cell, is that when you when you hear
(15:18):
the radicals, when you hear them, they never think that
they are radical. They think that they're completely rational and logical.
And so it's unpacking that ideology, unpacking that form of
thought that gets you to try to understand their motivations
for why they.
Speaker 5 (15:36):
Did what they did.
Speaker 8 (15:38):
Yeah, exactly, and they certainly, I imagine, got a great deal
of input to validate and in a certain way, you know,
miseducate them about you know, what say it means to
be trans. I mean, from what I understand, they both
were pretty heavily online, pretty heavily involved in Reddit and discord.
(16:01):
In your recent piece for Human Events, and when you
spoke with Megan Kelly, I thought you explored really well
the fact that they went to high school during COVID lockdowns,
and the way you said it was that they couldn't
step out into the world. The world was shut down,
and so they stepped out into the world online. And
we also know that that online world is extremely rife
(16:25):
with pornography, and it does appear that their expression of
their sexuality was in some way tainted by that. I mean,
I just I don't think young men naturally wake up saying, oh,
I'll be trans or oh I'm into furries. Right, They're
obviously getting that somewhere online. And I also had shared
(16:45):
with you a short while ago an interesting piece from
the Washington Examiner, and it was covered elsewhere that there
were basically some whistleblowers from I think it was porn
hub or some other place showing that they actively try
to convert they call it convert users of their porn
(17:06):
site that maybe are initially just seeking you know, heterosexual
what we might call vanilla porn, but getting them specifically
into trans stuff because they're seeking an ever higher bar
of stimulation and you know, a feeling of taboo. And
again when you have these young men that are also
at this developmental age seeking a form of identity, I
(17:28):
think it could be unfortunately a perfect terrible storm where
their sense of identity can even become co opted into
this trans and into this furriness, and then it gets
rolled up with this you know, leftist hatred of straight
white men in the church. I think Twigs had also
been online maybe saying some things about leaving religion, and.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
Tyler they were both they were both former Mormons or
had grown up Mormon and were leaving the LDS church.
So that exactly lines up with what you're saying. And
in fact, I've spoken to some I'm Catholic, but you know,
I have some Mormon friends and I was asking him
about this as well, and they said, you know, there's this,
there's there are a lot of people in Utah that
(18:14):
you know, form the sort of former Mormon culture. And
for some people when they leave the church, what they
do is they run in the opposite direction to whatever
the furthest thing away from you know, mom and.
Speaker 5 (18:30):
Dad and the way that we were raised is.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
And in this case, yeah, being a member of a
you know, quasi antifa trans furry cell using drugs and
black market hormones is probably just as far as you
can get from a conservative Mormon background, Jack Prosobic, doctor
Chloe Carmichael, will be right back Toman Events Daily. All right,
(19:03):
Jack Pacivic, We're back live here, Human Events Daily. Folks,
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Speaker 1 (20:40):
Here back with doctor Chloe Carmichael, Doctor Chloe. I've you know,
and I'm kind of using my sort of armchair analysis here.
I'm not an expert like you on some of this,
but the disassociation that I see here with Crooks, with Mangioni,
with Robinson Twigs as well, they're it does seem to
(21:00):
be a common thread. These are young white men in
the twenty to twenty seven age range. They all went
through the COVID experience. I went to the White House
and mentioned this, and people could see that roundtable on
left winging violence, and I mentioned it to President Trump
himself and said that I'm seeing an interesting profile here
(21:23):
of these types of shooters, and I don't think we
should overlook those commonalities.
Speaker 5 (21:27):
What do you make of this?
Speaker 8 (21:28):
Yeah, I think that you are raising a really good
point there. So when you talk about dissociation, I also think,
for example, as you mentioned of drug use, I think
Twiggs has acknowledged online that he used a lot of
marijuana as a young person, right. And then also the
Journal of American Psychiatry acknowledged recently that even just the
(21:54):
medium regular dose of ADHD medication is linked to a
three times threefold increased likelihood towards issues with psychiaticism, which
is of course a.
Speaker 4 (22:07):
Break from reality.
Speaker 8 (22:08):
And then when we have, you know, people being steered
into this extreme online virtual world that actually kind of
requires a form of dissociation as well, when you know,
you're disconnecting with the world around you and stepping into
this virtual world. So I think that you're raising a
really good point that all of these young men during
(22:30):
COVID were kind of pushed into their bedrooms, pushed into
the world of computers, possibly using a lot of marijuana,
possibly also on you know, other medications that you know
may have been good for them, and you know, maybe not.
And you know, I also wonder what's going on with
these uh in some cases, the parenting. I mean, how
(22:53):
is Lance as he discussed online using uh not only
extremely heavy marijuana use, but he also disc us, you know,
drinking large amounts of vodka and things like that. I'm
wondering where the parents are in all of this as well.
And so if these young men are not getting grounded
in real life through you know, church, family, being out
(23:13):
with friends, they are, as you said, dissociating into an
online life. And when we even look at say the
icons on things like Reddit or discord, the icons, the
locos of those sites, they look like a human that's
half robot right, it's inviting this, you know, not not
(23:34):
the icon of in and of itself, but the whole thing,
you know, in combined with the excess of porn use.
I do think that dissociation is a good word for
that to describe what all that adds.
Speaker 5 (23:44):
Up to and what do we also see.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
We know that Crooks, Thomas Matthew Crooks, president Trump's would
be assassin from Butler, Pennsylvania. One of the last things
that he did before he went up on that roof
in Butler was search or notography. Then we go and
we look at Tyler Robinson, and they tell us that
his social media footprint, his internet footprint includes very strange
(24:08):
pornographic searches where he's involved in websites where they're digging into,
digging into the furry porn and stuff that even includes
young anthropomorphized children that are involved in these sexual acts,
something that seems very disturbing. I did not spend a
(24:31):
lot of time looking at this stuff, but for purposes
of understanding, I pulled it up.
Speaker 5 (24:35):
It's gross. It's some of the grossest stuff that I've
ever seen.
Speaker 1 (24:38):
And yet you know, they've put themselves in a position
and I think you're right.
Speaker 5 (24:42):
I don't think it starts there. I think it starts
more vanilla.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
But they get to a point where they're totally wrapped
around the actual because they're completely dissociated with reality.
Speaker 5 (24:51):
And yet we're also told that Twiggs's.
Speaker 1 (24:53):
Grandfather was the one who actually owned the home where
all of this was going on.
Speaker 4 (24:58):
Yeah, you know, that's a good point too.
Speaker 8 (25:00):
I mean, apparently their their their parents were in some
level financially enabling you know, this this type of lifestyle
that they were living, which is a whole other question
as well. But you know, as well, to your point
about Lance Twiggs, in some of the materials that you
sent me here, I noticed that on his TikTok account,
(25:21):
and one of his TikTok accounts, the the icon, the
facial image that was posted there was actually just what
appears to be some kind of a furry hat or
furry face mask, and it was shared apparently with a
user called youngest Kami. And you know, to your point
about about the youth, and then this looping in of
(25:44):
of of Marxism, which of course wants to strip away
and break down the family, and to strip away and
break down religion, and so when we stop looking basically
upward to think of our identity and we look excessively
in word or excessively into the screen of a computer
where there's nothing in many ways except this extreme, ironically
(26:08):
capitalist right while they're oftentimes so hung up on Marxism,
but it's this extreme capitalist culture actually with you know,
whether it be porn Hub or these other places that
are just trying to stir them deeper and deeper into
you know, really extreme pornography, which can dissociate them from
(26:30):
just their normal sense of identity and values again, especially
when they're at this really sensitive developmental age. So then
they're getting flooded with dopamine because they're you know, using
excessive porn, which then is followed by a feeling of
emptiness that they only feel that they go, this is
the way.
Speaker 1 (26:51):
To get more quick break hold it right there, because
we can't skip this.
Speaker 5 (26:55):
We write back Human Events daily.
Speaker 7 (27:01):
There's some published reports out there that this individual of
the roommate may have been transisting.
Speaker 5 (27:06):
Or did that correlate with what you saw?
Speaker 1 (27:10):
Yeah, definitely he's going to have em PRIs to be
changed the yeah and medizing. Yeah, all right, Jack with
Sevich were back Human Events daily, we're talking about the
psychology of Tyler Robinson and Lance Twiggs.
Speaker 5 (27:25):
I want to toss it back to doctor Chloe Carmichael.
Speaker 1 (27:27):
She got cut off in the last segment because we
are talking about this situation where they're you're talking about
these young men who are living in I think very cases,
many cases, depraved states, and a very you know, these
are these downward spirals, and yet they still keep choosing
to continue on this path rather than simply walk away,
(27:51):
and you know, think to themselves, I don't need to
do this.
Speaker 5 (27:55):
I could.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
I can walk away, and I can go back home,
and I can go somewhere else.
Speaker 5 (27:59):
And yet they never seem to do it, do they.
Speaker 8 (28:02):
Well no, but I mean that's because I think of
all of these forces to demonize and confuse them about
what it would mean to walk away, like what walk
away towards what Charlie Kirk was offering, you know, of
a healthy sense of manhood and community. You know, Tyler
Robinson had been tricked into thinking that Charlie Kirk himself,
(28:26):
you know, represented evil and hatred. I mean, can you imagine,
of course, the irony of saying, well, I have to
get rid of all that hatred and so therefore I'm
going to you know, assassinate him. But even from a
very young age. You know, there's a very haunting photo
of Tyler Robinson when he was maybe thirteen, and he's
you know, absorbed at his computer gaming, and his mom,
(28:48):
I think, had posted the picture herself with something like haha,
now he can, you know, totally ignore us. And we
know what those online games are. They're rife with predators.
I saw something recently on Sean Ryan's show about Roadblocks
actually has child facing materials there where kids can relive
the simulation of shooting Charlie Kirk or of being in
(29:12):
that audience. And so you young men are seeking a
place where they can feel strong and useful and competent.
And I think that these online worlds, whether it be
through gaming or through pornography or some of these really
warped places on Reddit or Discord, are hijacking that sense
(29:33):
of manhood and pointing it towards something really awful and perverse.
So they don't realize they need to walk away because
they think that they're developing into a hero.
Speaker 1 (29:43):
They're developing into a hero, or perhaps even a type
of hero known as a white night. You just mentioned
they want to feel strong and useful. Why is it
that young men don't feel useful in today's society?
Speaker 8 (30:02):
Exactly because everything that would normally guide them to feel useful,
like say, to be providers, protectors, you know, leaders within
their church and their community, it's all been branded as
toxic masculinity to them, especially if God forbid that they
should be a straight white male. And so ironically that
(30:24):
desire to be useful and strong and helpful in society,
they've been programmed to think the way to do that
is actually to tear down society and to separate from,
you know, even the fact of their masculinity. I think
that's why they may be so vulnerable to some of
this you know, trans stuff. What better way to step
(30:47):
away from what they've been seen as this, Oh I'm
just a terrible, toxic straight white male. I know I
could be trans. Oh even better, I'll be furry or
you know, date people within that space. So I think
it's a disavowal and, as you've said, a dissociation from
who they are because society in many ways has vilified them.
Speaker 1 (31:11):
And this is a key element here, because they're feeling
vilified so that's what creates the dissociation in the first place,
that they then go and find new outlets, drugs, video games,
online pornography, all of these other things, because and not
to mention all of the economic effects as well that
I think, you know, we talk about a lot here
(31:33):
on the program in general when it comes to gen
z and how if you have this sense that the
real world has nothing for you, that the real world
is against you, that the real world is hostile to you,
then perhaps you return back with the sense of being
hostile to the world itself. And something else that you
(31:54):
picked up or that you mentioned that I wanted to
go back to. And you wrote an entire book about this,
and it's the question of free speech. And so Charlie
of course was a champion of free speech. He was
participating in free speech when he was shot and killed.
Speaker 5 (32:13):
And in fact the title of it was.
Speaker 1 (32:16):
His Debate Me series, And you wrote a book, can
I say that why free speech matters and how to
use it fearlessly. So Charlie's perspective was, if you disagree
with me, come to the front and let's have a conversation.
Tyler Robinson were told in one of these conversations with
his parents before they turned him in and identified him
(32:37):
and all this happened.
Speaker 5 (32:38):
That I have to stop his hate.
Speaker 1 (32:42):
Now, as far as I know, Charlie wasn't ever violent
to anyone. He never physically attacked anyone, but he did
or did anything, you know, in any capacity, breaking it
laws something like that. But he did talk. Why is
it that these people view speech itself as as a
form of an attack on them physically.
Speaker 8 (33:04):
Well, I think in part because they've been you know,
programmed to feel that way, you know. I honestly think
a lot of this traces back to Marxism and things
that they're learning in schools unfortunately, but it really is
a very strong thread within the trans movement, specifically that
if you should, you know, say to a quote trans man,
(33:28):
you know you're actually a woman, or you know, use
use biologically accurate pronouns, they'll say you are threatening my existence.
And I think, again there's this issue of dissociation. And ironically,
as a clinical psychologist, if I'm working with somebody say
that you know, comes into my office and says, hey,
(33:49):
I'm seeing little green men, I would not immediately confront
them and say, no, you're not they're not there. My
first questions would be, well, what do they say to you?
How long have you seen them? I would be trying
to explore and understand, you know what that delusion, what
that psychotic delusion, you know, represents to the person, because
(34:12):
everybody knows psychologists know that if you just come in
and you hit them over the head, you know, by
telling them that their delusion is false, they will shut
down completely and you know, really act out and act
up very much like a like a trans person who says,
you know, you're threatening my existence because they've hinged their
(34:34):
existence on something that is untrue. So of course it
creates a lot of instability. That was ironically the question
that was supposed to Charlie Kirk is how many mass
shooters are trans? And ironically he was shot at that moment,
you know, presumably by Tyler Robinson, presumably allegedly in part
(34:58):
maybe because of his relationship with Lance Twigs about being trance.
Speaker 1 (35:04):
So he's in this conversation, he's in this relationship, he's
viewing his identity, he's viewing his as being wrapped up
in this which is beyond anything that the real world
offers himself, and he just seems totally lost in this.
It seems like he was totally lost in this identity
(35:25):
to the point where I suppose I should say he
did understand that there would be consequences, because we do
see these messages, We see these this sense with his
parents when his parents do confront him, you know, he's
trying to get the rifle and bring it back.
Speaker 5 (35:42):
He's trying to cover up what he did.
Speaker 1 (35:44):
So, you know, is there a sense then I suppose
that he's almost living like a double life where he's
one person with his parents, but he's another person with twigs.
Speaker 8 (35:54):
Yeah, I would say it certainly does seem that way,
you know, kind of a bifurcated idea entity, which again
can be very isolating that that causes depression. It's actually
one of the first things an abuser wants to do
to a victim is to isolate them and make them
feel as if, you know, their their friends and family
(36:15):
don't understand them. And I think that's exactly what happens
when people go down this awful you know, transferry porn
rabbit hole online where they just get deeper and deeper
into this world that really does make no sense, that
really is disconnected from reality, and then, of course, you know,
the dark forces there tend to vilify the person's actual
(36:38):
family and say, oh, well, you know you should probably
go no contact with them, or oh, you know, they're
threatening your existence because you know, to your point about
my book about free speech and the importance of speaking accurately,
language is one of our most profound tools as humans.
It's we we actually psychologists sometimes refer to work words
(37:01):
as objects that are that are representing prototypes. So it's
it's really part of the glue that allows us to
communicate together about reality. And so when people start, you know,
tinkering with that by saying like, oh, well it's a
transman or oh, you know, this is a furry, and
then when other people push back on that language, because
(37:23):
it is important to be grounded in reality and to
be communicating accurately, they can start to unravel and become
very hostile.
Speaker 1 (37:34):
Jack with Sobic Doctor Chloe Carmichael, The Toxic Psychology of
Tyler Robinson.
Speaker 5 (37:40):
You're right back here. Human Events Daily, Today's special.
Speaker 2 (38:02):
I am finally a notice of intent to seek the
death penalty. I do not take this decision lightly, and
it is a decision I have made independently as county attorney,
based solely on the available evidence and circumstances and nature
of the crime.
Speaker 1 (38:22):
All Right, Jack Psoker back final segment here with doctor
Chloe Carmichael. Doctor Chloe, I know that you've commented on
criminal cases before, and look, we're not just speculating on this.
Speaker 5 (38:33):
I do believe that a.
Speaker 1 (38:35):
Lot of this relationship and a lot of the psychology
here is going to come up either in the conviction
phase of the trial or in the sentencing phase. Because
we know that the state of Utah is seeking the
death penalty. There have been many cases where the death
penalty has been taken off because of psychological issues, and
it just seems to me that this is certainly going
(38:57):
to be one of the big points of contention for
the defense team for Tyler Robinson.
Speaker 5 (39:02):
That so, if he is convicted on the.
Speaker 1 (39:05):
Basis of the fingerprint evidence, of the DNA evidence tying
him to the gun, the statements to the parents, the
statements to friends, let's say, for sake of argument, that
he is convicted, do you think this will play a
role in the death penalty phase.
Speaker 8 (39:20):
Well, I certainly imagine that the defense would attempt to
trot that out, but I don't think that they would
be successful, because the behavior of Tyler Robinson following this
event clearly shows that he was completely aware of the
difference between right and wrong. He didn't show up, for example,
(39:41):
on site and say, hey, everybody, I'm going to do
everybody a great favor and shoot Charlie Kirk, fully believing
that society would celebrate him. That would be a suggestion
that he was unaware of the difference of right and wrong.
Other reasons why people might use a psychological defect as
a way to avoid accountability might be, for example, a
(40:02):
very low IQ or lack of intelligence. I don't think
that Tyler could plead that either. You know, my understanding
is that he was actually very intelligent.
Speaker 4 (40:11):
What he did have.
Speaker 8 (40:13):
I would say, is an extreme sense of grandiosity, which
is you know, quite common again in young men, which
is why it's so tragic that he wasn't I guess
able or willing to just you know, be around strong
men like you Jack, you know, people like Charlie Kirk. Ironically,
you know that that could lead him and shape him
and sometimes check him and teach him to use his
(40:37):
desire to be a man and to stand up for
what he believed was right in a more cogent and
productive way. So a person can absolutely be mentally ill,
but that doesn't necessarily mean that it's going to feed
to an insanity plea because I don't think that there's
a lack of competency that his mental illness, if it exists,
(40:58):
could be used to suggest.
Speaker 1 (41:01):
Right, So what you're and I want to want to
break this down because I'm I know for a fact
almost that you know that you know, this is certainly
going to be the way that they try to uh,
you know, go for life in prison or potentially there's
been some talk about, you know, not not officially, but
(41:23):
I've had you know, a lot of commentators saying, what
if there's going to be a plea deal to take
the death penalty off the case like we saw in
the Brian Coberger case up in Idaho and other kids
situation where it looked like a conviction was going to
be likely, Then what you're saying.
Speaker 5 (41:40):
Though, because of his lack of.
Speaker 1 (41:45):
I should say no, because of his direct knowledge of
what he was doing, because of his understanding of right
and wrong, because we you know, take all of the
you know, the psychology of Okay, why was he involved
in this stuff? Why was he looking at this stuff online?
He still understood what he was doing. He understood what
he was doing, and he made a direct decision to
(42:06):
and and by the way he created this plan, he
was hiding the gun under his you know, under his
his clothing. This was no active passion, is what I'm
trying to say.
Speaker 5 (42:15):
There's a lot of thought.
Speaker 1 (42:17):
It's pre medit extremely premeditated, to the point where and
I suspect that there's going to be information coming out
that this wasn't the first time that he had traveled
to this campus, a campus that's hours and hours away
from where he lived. This was not the same part
of Utah where he and Twigs lived. I think it
was a three hour drive each time that he visited.
(42:38):
So it's something that and they say, when you commit
murder in a premeditated sense, you never commit the murder
once that you commit it over and over and over
in your mind before you make that final act.
Speaker 5 (42:51):
And that's clearly what he did here.
Speaker 4 (42:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 8 (42:53):
In fact, I think some of the text messages, if
they're accurate, in fact, he says that he's been planning this,
you know, for about a week. So it's not as
if it were impulsive or in active passion. It's not
as if he lacks intelligence, and it's not as if
he doesn't have the capacity to understand right and wrong.
(43:14):
So I again with the Brian Kohlberger case, I think
there were some other issues where I think even his
confession itself might have been part of a plea deal.
But my understanding is that Tyler Robinson, I don't know
has he actually even acknowledged already you know that he
did this.
Speaker 4 (43:32):
I'm not sure do you know if he will.
Speaker 5 (43:35):
I don't believe he has in court.
Speaker 1 (43:37):
But what we do know is that's he's obviously, there's
the text messages, there's the discord chat where he comes
into and says, hey, guys, I just wanted to let
you know that was me yesterday. And then we're also
told that when his parents confronted him, he implied to
them that it was in fact him, and really his
parents figured it out.
Speaker 5 (43:56):
I mean they you know, they saw the gun.
Speaker 1 (43:58):
It was a a unique recognizable rifle to them. And
then of course the fact that and this is what
I keep coming back to, is even beyond all of
the now of course they'll have to prove in court
that the evidence the DNA, et cetera. But the fact
that it was his parent that made the idea and
not law enforcement, I think that makes a very strong
case because what parent is not going to identify their
(44:21):
own child?
Speaker 4 (44:22):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 8 (44:23):
And my goodness, we haven't even gotten into talking about, say,
Lance Twiggs's allegedly what his mother was allegedly doing as
well with some of the Venmoll payments. Maybe we'll save
that for another day. But no, I definitely don't see
Tyler Robinson being able to successfully plead, you know, to
insanity because usually I think that that type of a
(44:47):
plead deal would be offered if the prosecution you know,
needed to get it, or if he actually had a
legitimate case to plead insanity as the reason why he
would have done this. And I don't see either one
of those being plausible here. My hope in prayer is
that he has to take full accountability for what he did.
(45:09):
I think that would be actually really good for society
as well. I think our society is organized better when
people have a sense of accountability. So, you know, I
love Erica Kirk forgiving him, but I also don't think
that necessarily meant that she, you know, was arguing against
(45:29):
the death penalty for him either.
Speaker 1 (45:32):
Yeah, and Erica has mentioned this a few times publicly
interviews with Fox News and The New York Times when
asked about it, that you know, she I believe the
line she used is that I don't want his blood
on my hands, and totally understandable because as a Christian,
she wants to go to heaven and see Charlie again.
(45:54):
And you know, at the same time, I come from
the same perspective as you, where it's about correction for society.
And by the way, Charlie himself was in general a
supporter of the death penalty on the very same grounds.
He points out that the Bible mandates it early on
in even all the way back to the Torah, and
(46:16):
that Charlie pointed out that it is the proper corrective
for society. And I love the way that he put it,
and I tweet this out sometimes where he said, it's
not just about punishing the victim or punishing the perpetrator,
It's about showing society that the victim's life had value.
And that's really what it all is, isn't it That
we learn to value each other as individuals. Even if
(46:39):
we disagree that we can still at least agree that
we each do have that value exactly.
Speaker 4 (46:45):
And there's also an element of deterrence.
Speaker 8 (46:47):
That's another one of the points you know, of our
justice system in the first place. I think that Trump
in this case or another case called for a swift
and public execution. I think that might have been for them.
Speaker 5 (46:59):
To be calls for that in every case.
Speaker 8 (47:02):
Yeah, but I do think that there is again a
value in that, you know, for for the fact of deterrence,
and you know, for the fact of ownership of justice,
that it shouldn't be something you know that has to
be done, you know, in private. I also, frankly, don't
think it should necessarily have to be something that happens with,
(47:23):
you know, some kind of a you know, painless youth
in Asia procedure either. I mean, I think that there
is value in the Arlie.
Speaker 1 (47:33):
Charlie talked about this and we did a show together
and people have clipped it up, but he talked about
this the exact same way way you are, Doctor Chloe Carmichael.
Speaker 5 (47:41):
Where can people go to follow you and get the book?
Speaker 4 (47:43):
Thanks Jack?
Speaker 8 (47:44):
Free Speech Today, Dot com that's free speech today dot com.
I'd love to connect with people there for my book,
for my social media, and for little groups about the importance.
Speaker 4 (47:54):
Of free speech.
Speaker 5 (47:55):
Ladies and gentlemen, has always you have my permission to
lay ashore
This is what happens when the fourth Turning meets fifth
generation warfare.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
A.
Speaker 3 (00:14):
Commentator, international social media sensation, and form a Navy intelligence veteran.
Speaker 4 (00:20):
This is Human Events with your host Jack Posovic.
Speaker 3 (00:23):
Christ Is King Stember tenth twenty twenty five, twenty two
year old Tyler Robinson decided he wouldn't be attending his
electrical apprenticeship program at Dixie Technical College. At eight twenty three,
he walked to his gray Dodge Challenger, and a little
while later he drove off to Utah Valley University. Three
hours after that, at eleven forty nine, he exited his car,
(00:44):
wearing a different set of clothes, a cap, dark sunglasses,
and visibly limping toward the parking lot adjacent to the
UVU campus. He walked up the parking lot stairs, headed
to the low Cea Center, and then was nowhere to
be seen. Meanwhile, Conservative speaker Charlie Kirk was hosting one
of his debate events on campus, roughly two hundred yards
away from where Tyler was. At exactly twelve twenty three,
(01:06):
a single shots rang out, piercing the left side of
Kirk's throat, sending the entire campus into chaos. To add
to the already extremely tragic situation, CCTV footage showed Tyler,
then unknown to the authorities, fleeing the scene and successfully
evading capture. Tyler's father, Matt, saw the pictures of the
killer on the news. To his unimaginable shock, he saw
(01:28):
his son being reported about on national television for having
murdered Charlie Kirk. Despite his utter shock and disbelief, Matt
went to his son and simply asked him, Tyler, is
this you? This looks like you. Tyler immediately confessed. Soon
after his capture, Tyler went completely silent and has refused
to cooperate with the police. While the roommate was initially anonymous,
(01:51):
that didn't last long as a neighbor of Tyler's came
forward to speak with the media and some pretty interesting
things were said when the topic came up, and the
neighbor claims to have witnessed them together. Were they holding hands?
Speaker 5 (02:03):
Uh, yeah they were?
Speaker 6 (02:04):
And yeah, yeah.
Speaker 7 (02:07):
There's some published reports out there that this individual the roommate,
may have been transistent in and did that correlate with
what you saw?
Speaker 5 (02:16):
Yeah, definitely. I remember them talking about a doctor's payment.
Speaker 3 (02:20):
An unknown source in law enforcement had already attested to
the same story, and with this much scrutiny and attention
on something, keeping this person's name a secret was basically impossible. Eventually,
people found Tyler's Venmo account, where one name stood out,
Lance Twigs, Ladies.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
And welcome aboard today's edition of Human Events Daily. We've
got a special episode for you today. Now, if you
saw the previous episode, I would like you to go
back and watch that if you haven't, because we're going
to be making references to that episode. We're going to
make me talking about Tyler Robinson and these leaks that
came out from a former roommate friend whistleblower to the
(03:00):
YouTube account Turkey Tom, and these messages describe in great
detail the strange and toxic relationship between Lance Twiggs and
Tyler Robinson. And so Liz Wheeler and myself, and yesterday's episode,
the previous episode went through in great detail those leaks,
(03:21):
those sentences, those phrases we pulled out.
Speaker 5 (03:24):
What could they all mean?
Speaker 1 (03:25):
We corroborated that with other information, and so I would
encourage you to go and check out that episode before
you listen to this episode. But we make references as
much of it as you can. What are we doing
today today, We've got a very special guest on. It's
doctor Chloe Carmichael. She's a clinical psychologist. That was their
(03:48):
twisted world. Today we're going into the toxic psychology the
mind of Tyler Robinson.
Speaker 5 (03:56):
And as we do that, I'm.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
Sitting here in the original Charlie Kirk studio right now,
this desk right here, this is the desk where Charlie
launched his show.
Speaker 5 (04:07):
This microphone was Charlie's microphone.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
This is where it all began, when the Charlie Kirk Show,
and Charlie and I sat in this room and debating
and planning and scheming and doing it all. And now
he's not here. He's not going to be coming back.
(04:31):
And what was done to Erica and their children, Charlie's family,
It's an unspeakable evil. It's an unspeakable evil, one that
will never go away. No more bedtime stories, little girl
(04:53):
who will never be picked up by her father again, little.
Speaker 5 (04:57):
Boy who will never get tied ad.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
How to throw football, how to make a half court shot, no,
how to throw a baseball, none of that, And that
was all robbed by Tyler Robinson.
Speaker 5 (05:13):
It was robbed from them.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
Every single moment of every single day that Charlie could.
Speaker 5 (05:21):
Have spent with his family was taken from them, and
that creates a debt.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
That creates a debt ladies and gentlemen, and look not
to make it personal, but like I said, I'm here
in his studio, Charlie's my friend, and I suppose in
a way this is one of the ways that I
deal with things.
Speaker 5 (05:48):
Like this is I get to the bottom of it.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
I want to unpack every single piece of it that
I can. I want to dig in through every shadow,
open every closed door, look under every rock to try
to understand not just from the security perspective, the security
failures and the campus and all the rest of it,
(06:12):
but even the individuals and even the psychological situations, what
would drive someone to do this, And potentially maybe then
we can even learn how do we stop the next
person who wants to be a Tyler Robinson or a
Thomas Matthew Crooks or a Luigi man Gioni.
Speaker 5 (06:36):
So you know, I don't.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
Usually talk about it, but that's why I do what
I do, because if we don't stop them, they will
not stop on their own.
Speaker 5 (06:46):
Right back, Jack the SOVIC Human Events Daily. All right,
Jack Pacific, we're back.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
We're going through the strange case of Tyler Robinson and
Lance Twiggs.
Speaker 5 (07:12):
This is part two.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
We're now conducting the analysis of all of this. And
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Speaker 2 (08:37):
On September tenth, twenty twenty five, the roommate received a
text message from Robinson which said, drop what you're doing,
look under my keyboard. The roommate looked under the keyboard
and found a note that stated quote, I had the
opportunity to take out Charlie Kirk, and I'm going to
take it.
Speaker 5 (08:58):
So I want to bring on now.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
Very honored and excited to have doctor Chloe Carmichael joining us.
Speaker 5 (09:04):
She's read through all of this. She's also an expert
on this, really this emerging field, I would say, and
I wanted to get her in to explain. Doctor Chloe,
how are.
Speaker 4 (09:15):
You, hey, Dak great to be with you.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
So we're and just like everyone else, we see these leaks.
We see this and I'm just gonna call it as
it seems like a toxic relationship, you know, and caveats.
You know that that we do believe these leaks are corroborated,
that Turkey Tom has photos of the individuals together, of
his source, et cetera. We do know that other photos
(09:39):
from inside were corroborated to be at the home that
Lance Twiggs and Tyler Robinson were living at.
Speaker 5 (09:46):
And I guess, doctor Chloe, let's.
Speaker 1 (09:49):
Imagine, you know, imagine these two were in front of
you for some relationship therapy. What what would your diagnosis
be just reading through some of this.
Speaker 8 (10:01):
Wow, I mean, that's a that's a big question, Jack,
if these two were in front of me for some
kind of relationship therapy. I mean, I think one of
the first things that I would just need to understand
is what is their belief about the nature of their relationship.
From what I understand, Lance Twiggs believed himself to be transitioning,
(10:25):
you know, from a man into a woman. And you know,
apparently maybe Tyler Robinson might have been what we would
call colluding. And we used to call it a folly
audeu in psychology when you have two people that are
participating in the same delusion together. So I would be
(10:47):
interested to understand some of the very basic underpinnings of
how they viewed their relationship in the first place, because
especially since it appears that Tyler he that shot was
fire at the very first trans question that was posed
to Charlie Kirk. So I think the question of understanding,
(11:07):
you know, what exactly they believe themselves to be and
what trans meant to them might be important.
Speaker 5 (11:14):
And I think that's exactly right.
Speaker 1 (11:15):
And you know, as we try to piece this apart,
and of course, you know, I'll say it, you know,
for you, of course, we're you know, we're looking at
this from miles away, and we're looking at this from afar,
so trying to understand and unpack given the very limited evidence.
Speaker 5 (11:31):
That we do have.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
You, of course clinical psychologists, but you have not been
able to treat either of these individuals. Of course, one
is in is in prison. One is either in hiding
or some form of witness protection. But you know, for me,
I'll just put it this way. I'm I'm sitting right here.
This is the Charlie Kirk Studio. This is the desk
that I'm sitting at right now. This is the microphone
(11:55):
where he launched the Charlie Kirk Show. I sat here
in here with him so many times, and he's he's
not going to be coming back because of what happened.
And the evidence points to the individual Heller as being
the one on the roof who did this, who etched
into the bullets, the messages towards his his you know
(12:16):
who he viewed as his oppressor, but a guy who's
my friend and who was the husband of my friend
Erica and the father to two small children. So I
think it's incumbent on us and really as a country,
to understand why that happened and understand what drove them
to this act. And I think when you and I
were talking about this before, I remember you had said
(12:37):
that it.
Speaker 5 (12:37):
Almost seemed like.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
Like Tyler may have been doing this as a form
of acting out of romance romance or the idea that
he was trying to protect twigs. I'm reading through some
of these new leaks and I'm wondering, do you think
there could be an angle where he was almost trying
to impress Twigs by doing this, because we do see
that the friend here in these leaks is saying that
(13:00):
Tyler was not particularly you know, sexually experienced. He was
also not particularly politically experienced, but he knew that Twiggs was.
So I wonder if this was a way for him,
in his perspective, to try to think that he was
impressing his his lover here.
Speaker 8 (13:16):
Yeah, absolutely, Jack, And I think I've heard you use
the phrase white nighting before which to describe this, which
I think comes into play as well. You know, if
Tyler Robinson fancied himself, you know, as some kind of
a hero here. Because at this particular developmental age as well,
(13:37):
these are very young men there. In a way, they're
still kind of in a late form of adolescence, and
that's a stage when they can really be craving and
seeking social approval and social acceptance. They can be trying
on a lot of different identities, and you know, I
think from things that both of them have expressed online,
(14:00):
they may have even fallen prey to some of this
extreme vilification of straight white men, especially you know, conservative
straight white men, and so trying to really differentiate themselves
from that identity as they try to seek out their
own adult identity. You know, it seems like there could
(14:22):
be a little bit of a goal there as far
as you know, becoming the white Knight, but in a
little bit of a twisted sense of what it means
to be a white Knight.
Speaker 5 (14:33):
And that's right.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
And so when you're when they're attempting to be you know,
or you know, if this is true, he's attempting to
be this white knight, he's thinking, I want to impress
my my lover. I want to you know, gain status,
gainstanding in his eyes, because it does seem like he's
been you know, he's putting this relationship and putting this identity,
(14:57):
as you say, ahead of you know, my gosh, all
things like basic human decency and morality and your sort
of your normal social structures. And so one thing that
I learned, I guess, I would say, serving at Guantanamo
Bay for a year, which I did and working in
the interrogation cell, is that when you when you hear
(15:18):
the radicals, when you hear them, they never think that
they are radical. They think that they're completely rational and logical.
And so it's unpacking that ideology, unpacking that form of
thought that gets you to try to understand their motivations
for why they.
Speaker 5 (15:36):
Did what they did.
Speaker 8 (15:38):
Yeah, exactly, and they certainly, I imagine, got a great deal
of input to validate and in a certain way, you know,
miseducate them about you know, what say it means to
be trans. I mean, from what I understand, they both
were pretty heavily online, pretty heavily involved in Reddit and discord.
(16:01):
In your recent piece for Human Events, and when you
spoke with Megan Kelly, I thought you explored really well
the fact that they went to high school during COVID lockdowns,
and the way you said it was that they couldn't
step out into the world. The world was shut down,
and so they stepped out into the world online. And
we also know that that online world is extremely rife
(16:25):
with pornography, and it does appear that their expression of
their sexuality was in some way tainted by that. I mean,
I just I don't think young men naturally wake up saying, oh,
I'll be trans or oh I'm into furries. Right, They're
obviously getting that somewhere online. And I also had shared
(16:45):
with you a short while ago an interesting piece from
the Washington Examiner, and it was covered elsewhere that there
were basically some whistleblowers from I think it was porn
hub or some other place showing that they actively try
to convert they call it convert users of their porn
(17:06):
site that maybe are initially just seeking you know, heterosexual
what we might call vanilla porn, but getting them specifically
into trans stuff because they're seeking an ever higher bar
of stimulation and you know, a feeling of taboo. And
again when you have these young men that are also
at this developmental age seeking a form of identity, I
(17:28):
think it could be unfortunately a perfect terrible storm where
their sense of identity can even become co opted into
this trans and into this furriness, and then it gets
rolled up with this you know, leftist hatred of straight
white men in the church. I think Twigs had also
been online maybe saying some things about leaving religion, and.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
Tyler they were both they were both former Mormons or
had grown up Mormon and were leaving the LDS church.
So that exactly lines up with what you're saying. And
in fact, I've spoken to some I'm Catholic, but you know,
I have some Mormon friends and I was asking him
about this as well, and they said, you know, there's this,
there's there are a lot of people in Utah that
(18:14):
you know, form the sort of former Mormon culture. And
for some people when they leave the church, what they
do is they run in the opposite direction to whatever
the furthest thing away from you know, mom and.
Speaker 5 (18:30):
Dad and the way that we were raised is.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
And in this case, yeah, being a member of a
you know, quasi antifa trans furry cell using drugs and
black market hormones is probably just as far as you
can get from a conservative Mormon background, Jack Prosobic, doctor
Chloe Carmichael, will be right back Toman Events Daily. All right,
(19:03):
Jack Pacivic, We're back live here, Human Events Daily. Folks,
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Speaker 1 (20:40):
Here back with doctor Chloe Carmichael, Doctor Chloe. I've you know,
and I'm kind of using my sort of armchair analysis here.
I'm not an expert like you on some of this,
but the disassociation that I see here with Crooks, with Mangioni,
with Robinson Twigs as well, they're it does seem to
(21:00):
be a common thread. These are young white men in
the twenty to twenty seven age range. They all went
through the COVID experience. I went to the White House
and mentioned this, and people could see that roundtable on
left winging violence, and I mentioned it to President Trump
himself and said that I'm seeing an interesting profile here
(21:23):
of these types of shooters, and I don't think we
should overlook those commonalities.
Speaker 5 (21:27):
What do you make of this?
Speaker 8 (21:28):
Yeah, I think that you are raising a really good
point there. So when you talk about dissociation, I also think,
for example, as you mentioned of drug use, I think
Twiggs has acknowledged online that he used a lot of
marijuana as a young person, right. And then also the
Journal of American Psychiatry acknowledged recently that even just the
(21:54):
medium regular dose of ADHD medication is linked to a
three times threefold increased likelihood towards issues with psychiaticism, which
is of course a.
Speaker 4 (22:07):
Break from reality.
Speaker 8 (22:08):
And then when we have, you know, people being steered
into this extreme online virtual world that actually kind of
requires a form of dissociation as well, when you know,
you're disconnecting with the world around you and stepping into
this virtual world. So I think that you're raising a
really good point that all of these young men during
(22:30):
COVID were kind of pushed into their bedrooms, pushed into
the world of computers, possibly using a lot of marijuana,
possibly also on you know, other medications that you know
may have been good for them, and you know, maybe not.
And you know, I also wonder what's going on with
these uh in some cases, the parenting. I mean, how
(22:53):
is Lance as he discussed online using uh not only
extremely heavy marijuana use, but he also disc us, you know,
drinking large amounts of vodka and things like that. I'm
wondering where the parents are in all of this as well.
And so if these young men are not getting grounded
in real life through you know, church, family, being out
(23:13):
with friends, they are, as you said, dissociating into an
online life. And when we even look at say the
icons on things like Reddit or discord, the icons, the
locos of those sites, they look like a human that's
half robot right, it's inviting this, you know, not not
(23:34):
the icon of in and of itself, but the whole thing,
you know, in combined with the excess of porn use.
I do think that dissociation is a good word for
that to describe what all that adds.
Speaker 5 (23:44):
Up to and what do we also see.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
We know that Crooks, Thomas Matthew Crooks, president Trump's would
be assassin from Butler, Pennsylvania. One of the last things
that he did before he went up on that roof
in Butler was search or notography. Then we go and
we look at Tyler Robinson, and they tell us that
his social media footprint, his internet footprint includes very strange
(24:08):
pornographic searches where he's involved in websites where they're digging into,
digging into the furry porn and stuff that even includes
young anthropomorphized children that are involved in these sexual acts,
something that seems very disturbing. I did not spend a
(24:31):
lot of time looking at this stuff, but for purposes
of understanding, I pulled it up.
Speaker 5 (24:35):
It's gross. It's some of the grossest stuff that I've
ever seen.
Speaker 1 (24:38):
And yet you know, they've put themselves in a position
and I think you're right.
Speaker 5 (24:42):
I don't think it starts there. I think it starts
more vanilla.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
But they get to a point where they're totally wrapped
around the actual because they're completely dissociated with reality.
Speaker 5 (24:51):
And yet we're also told that Twiggs's.
Speaker 1 (24:53):
Grandfather was the one who actually owned the home where
all of this was going on.
Speaker 4 (24:58):
Yeah, you know, that's a good point too.
Speaker 8 (25:00):
I mean, apparently their their their parents were in some
level financially enabling you know, this this type of lifestyle
that they were living, which is a whole other question
as well. But you know, as well, to your point
about Lance Twiggs, in some of the materials that you
sent me here, I noticed that on his TikTok account,
(25:21):
and one of his TikTok accounts, the the icon, the
facial image that was posted there was actually just what
appears to be some kind of a furry hat or
furry face mask, and it was shared apparently with a
user called youngest Kami. And you know, to your point
about about the youth, and then this looping in of
(25:44):
of of Marxism, which of course wants to strip away
and break down the family, and to strip away and
break down religion, and so when we stop looking basically
upward to think of our identity and we look excessively
in word or excessively into the screen of a computer
where there's nothing in many ways except this extreme, ironically
(26:08):
capitalist right while they're oftentimes so hung up on Marxism,
but it's this extreme capitalist culture actually with you know,
whether it be porn Hub or these other places that
are just trying to stir them deeper and deeper into
you know, really extreme pornography, which can dissociate them from
(26:30):
just their normal sense of identity and values again, especially
when they're at this really sensitive developmental age. So then
they're getting flooded with dopamine because they're you know, using
excessive porn, which then is followed by a feeling of
emptiness that they only feel that they go, this is
the way.
Speaker 1 (26:51):
To get more quick break hold it right there, because
we can't skip this.
Speaker 5 (26:55):
We write back Human Events daily.
Speaker 7 (27:01):
There's some published reports out there that this individual of
the roommate may have been transisting.
Speaker 5 (27:06):
Or did that correlate with what you saw?
Speaker 1 (27:10):
Yeah, definitely he's going to have em PRIs to be
changed the yeah and medizing. Yeah, all right, Jack with
Sevich were back Human Events daily, we're talking about the
psychology of Tyler Robinson and Lance Twiggs.
Speaker 5 (27:25):
I want to toss it back to doctor Chloe Carmichael.
Speaker 1 (27:27):
She got cut off in the last segment because we
are talking about this situation where they're you're talking about
these young men who are living in I think very cases,
many cases, depraved states, and a very you know, these
are these downward spirals, and yet they still keep choosing
to continue on this path rather than simply walk away,
(27:51):
and you know, think to themselves, I don't need to
do this.
Speaker 5 (27:55):
I could.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
I can walk away, and I can go back home,
and I can go somewhere else.
Speaker 5 (27:59):
And yet they never seem to do it, do they.
Speaker 8 (28:02):
Well no, but I mean that's because I think of
all of these forces to demonize and confuse them about
what it would mean to walk away, like what walk
away towards what Charlie Kirk was offering, you know, of
a healthy sense of manhood and community. You know, Tyler
Robinson had been tricked into thinking that Charlie Kirk himself,
(28:26):
you know, represented evil and hatred. I mean, can you imagine,
of course, the irony of saying, well, I have to
get rid of all that hatred and so therefore I'm
going to you know, assassinate him. But even from a
very young age. You know, there's a very haunting photo
of Tyler Robinson when he was maybe thirteen, and he's
you know, absorbed at his computer gaming, and his mom,
(28:48):
I think, had posted the picture herself with something like haha,
now he can, you know, totally ignore us. And we
know what those online games are. They're rife with predators.
I saw something recently on Sean Ryan's show about Roadblocks
actually has child facing materials there where kids can relive
the simulation of shooting Charlie Kirk or of being in
(29:12):
that audience. And so you young men are seeking a
place where they can feel strong and useful and competent.
And I think that these online worlds, whether it be
through gaming or through pornography or some of these really
warped places on Reddit or Discord, are hijacking that sense
(29:33):
of manhood and pointing it towards something really awful and perverse.
So they don't realize they need to walk away because
they think that they're developing into a hero.
Speaker 1 (29:43):
They're developing into a hero, or perhaps even a type
of hero known as a white night. You just mentioned
they want to feel strong and useful. Why is it
that young men don't feel useful in today's society?
Speaker 8 (30:02):
Exactly because everything that would normally guide them to feel useful,
like say, to be providers, protectors, you know, leaders within
their church and their community, it's all been branded as
toxic masculinity to them, especially if God forbid that they
should be a straight white male. And so ironically that
(30:24):
desire to be useful and strong and helpful in society,
they've been programmed to think the way to do that
is actually to tear down society and to separate from,
you know, even the fact of their masculinity. I think
that's why they may be so vulnerable to some of
this you know, trans stuff. What better way to step
(30:47):
away from what they've been seen as this, Oh I'm
just a terrible, toxic straight white male. I know I
could be trans. Oh even better, I'll be furry or
you know, date people within that space. So I think
it's a disavowal and, as you've said, a dissociation from
who they are because society in many ways has vilified them.
Speaker 1 (31:11):
And this is a key element here, because they're feeling
vilified so that's what creates the dissociation in the first place,
that they then go and find new outlets, drugs, video games,
online pornography, all of these other things, because and not
to mention all of the economic effects as well that
I think, you know, we talk about a lot here
(31:33):
on the program in general when it comes to gen
z and how if you have this sense that the
real world has nothing for you, that the real world
is against you, that the real world is hostile to you,
then perhaps you return back with the sense of being
hostile to the world itself. And something else that you
(31:54):
picked up or that you mentioned that I wanted to
go back to. And you wrote an entire book about this,
and it's the question of free speech. And so Charlie
of course was a champion of free speech. He was
participating in free speech when he was shot and killed.
Speaker 5 (32:13):
And in fact the title of it was.
Speaker 1 (32:16):
His Debate Me series, And you wrote a book, can
I say that why free speech matters and how to
use it fearlessly. So Charlie's perspective was, if you disagree
with me, come to the front and let's have a conversation.
Tyler Robinson were told in one of these conversations with
his parents before they turned him in and identified him
(32:37):
and all this happened.
Speaker 5 (32:38):
That I have to stop his hate.
Speaker 1 (32:42):
Now, as far as I know, Charlie wasn't ever violent
to anyone. He never physically attacked anyone, but he did
or did anything, you know, in any capacity, breaking it
laws something like that. But he did talk. Why is
it that these people view speech itself as as a
form of an attack on them physically.
Speaker 8 (33:04):
Well, I think in part because they've been you know,
programmed to feel that way, you know. I honestly think
a lot of this traces back to Marxism and things
that they're learning in schools unfortunately, but it really is
a very strong thread within the trans movement, specifically that
if you should, you know, say to a quote trans man,
(33:28):
you know you're actually a woman, or you know, use
use biologically accurate pronouns, they'll say you are threatening my existence.
And I think, again there's this issue of dissociation. And ironically,
as a clinical psychologist, if I'm working with somebody say
that you know, comes into my office and says, hey,
(33:49):
I'm seeing little green men, I would not immediately confront
them and say, no, you're not they're not there. My
first questions would be, well, what do they say to you?
How long have you seen them? I would be trying
to explore and understand, you know what that delusion, what
that psychotic delusion, you know, represents to the person, because
(34:12):
everybody knows psychologists know that if you just come in
and you hit them over the head, you know, by
telling them that their delusion is false, they will shut
down completely and you know, really act out and act
up very much like a like a trans person who says,
you know, you're threatening my existence because they've hinged their
(34:34):
existence on something that is untrue. So of course it
creates a lot of instability. That was ironically the question
that was supposed to Charlie Kirk is how many mass
shooters are trans? And ironically he was shot at that moment,
you know, presumably by Tyler Robinson, presumably allegedly in part
(34:58):
maybe because of his relationship with Lance Twigs about being trance.
Speaker 1 (35:04):
So he's in this conversation, he's in this relationship, he's
viewing his identity, he's viewing his as being wrapped up
in this which is beyond anything that the real world
offers himself, and he just seems totally lost in this.
It seems like he was totally lost in this identity
(35:25):
to the point where I suppose I should say he
did understand that there would be consequences, because we do
see these messages, We see these this sense with his
parents when his parents do confront him, you know, he's
trying to get the rifle and bring it back.
Speaker 5 (35:42):
He's trying to cover up what he did.
Speaker 1 (35:44):
So, you know, is there a sense then I suppose
that he's almost living like a double life where he's
one person with his parents, but he's another person with twigs.
Speaker 8 (35:54):
Yeah, I would say it certainly does seem that way,
you know, kind of a bifurcated idea entity, which again
can be very isolating that that causes depression. It's actually
one of the first things an abuser wants to do
to a victim is to isolate them and make them
feel as if, you know, their their friends and family
(36:15):
don't understand them. And I think that's exactly what happens
when people go down this awful you know, transferry porn
rabbit hole online where they just get deeper and deeper
into this world that really does make no sense, that
really is disconnected from reality, and then, of course, you know,
the dark forces there tend to vilify the person's actual
(36:38):
family and say, oh, well, you know you should probably
go no contact with them, or oh, you know, they're
threatening your existence because you know, to your point about
my book about free speech and the importance of speaking accurately,
language is one of our most profound tools as humans.
It's we we actually psychologists sometimes refer to work words
(37:01):
as objects that are that are representing prototypes. So it's
it's really part of the glue that allows us to
communicate together about reality. And so when people start, you know,
tinkering with that by saying like, oh, well it's a
transman or oh, you know, this is a furry, and
then when other people push back on that language, because
(37:23):
it is important to be grounded in reality and to
be communicating accurately, they can start to unravel and become
very hostile.
Speaker 1 (37:34):
Jack with Sobic Doctor Chloe Carmichael, The Toxic Psychology of
Tyler Robinson.
Speaker 5 (37:40):
You're right back here. Human Events Daily, Today's special.
Speaker 2 (38:02):
I am finally a notice of intent to seek the
death penalty. I do not take this decision lightly, and
it is a decision I have made independently as county attorney,
based solely on the available evidence and circumstances and nature
of the crime.
Speaker 1 (38:22):
All Right, Jack Psoker back final segment here with doctor
Chloe Carmichael. Doctor Chloe, I know that you've commented on
criminal cases before, and look, we're not just speculating on this.
Speaker 5 (38:33):
I do believe that a.
Speaker 1 (38:35):
Lot of this relationship and a lot of the psychology
here is going to come up either in the conviction
phase of the trial or in the sentencing phase. Because
we know that the state of Utah is seeking the
death penalty. There have been many cases where the death
penalty has been taken off because of psychological issues, and
it just seems to me that this is certainly going
(38:57):
to be one of the big points of contention for
the defense team for Tyler Robinson.
Speaker 5 (39:02):
That so, if he is convicted on the.
Speaker 1 (39:05):
Basis of the fingerprint evidence, of the DNA evidence tying
him to the gun, the statements to the parents, the
statements to friends, let's say, for sake of argument, that
he is convicted, do you think this will play a
role in the death penalty phase.
Speaker 8 (39:20):
Well, I certainly imagine that the defense would attempt to
trot that out, but I don't think that they would
be successful, because the behavior of Tyler Robinson following this
event clearly shows that he was completely aware of the
difference between right and wrong. He didn't show up, for example,
(39:41):
on site and say, hey, everybody, I'm going to do
everybody a great favor and shoot Charlie Kirk, fully believing
that society would celebrate him. That would be a suggestion
that he was unaware of the difference of right and wrong.
Other reasons why people might use a psychological defect as
a way to avoid accountability might be, for example, a
(40:02):
very low IQ or lack of intelligence. I don't think
that Tyler could plead that either. You know, my understanding
is that he was actually very intelligent.
Speaker 4 (40:11):
What he did have.
Speaker 8 (40:13):
I would say, is an extreme sense of grandiosity, which
is you know, quite common again in young men, which
is why it's so tragic that he wasn't I guess
able or willing to just you know, be around strong
men like you Jack, you know, people like Charlie Kirk. Ironically,
you know that that could lead him and shape him
and sometimes check him and teach him to use his
(40:37):
desire to be a man and to stand up for
what he believed was right in a more cogent and
productive way. So a person can absolutely be mentally ill,
but that doesn't necessarily mean that it's going to feed
to an insanity plea because I don't think that there's
a lack of competency that his mental illness, if it exists,
(40:58):
could be used to suggest.
Speaker 1 (41:01):
Right, So what you're and I want to want to
break this down because I'm I know for a fact
almost that you know that you know, this is certainly
going to be the way that they try to uh,
you know, go for life in prison or potentially there's
been some talk about, you know, not not officially, but
(41:23):
I've had you know, a lot of commentators saying, what
if there's going to be a plea deal to take
the death penalty off the case like we saw in
the Brian Coberger case up in Idaho and other kids
situation where it looked like a conviction was going to
be likely, Then what you're saying.
Speaker 5 (41:40):
Though, because of his lack of.
Speaker 1 (41:45):
I should say no, because of his direct knowledge of
what he was doing, because of his understanding of right
and wrong, because we you know, take all of the
you know, the psychology of Okay, why was he involved
in this stuff? Why was he looking at this stuff online?
He still understood what he was doing. He understood what
he was doing, and he made a direct decision to
(42:06):
and and by the way he created this plan, he
was hiding the gun under his you know, under his
his clothing. This was no active passion, is what I'm
trying to say.
Speaker 5 (42:15):
There's a lot of thought.
Speaker 1 (42:17):
It's pre medit extremely premeditated, to the point where and
I suspect that there's going to be information coming out
that this wasn't the first time that he had traveled
to this campus, a campus that's hours and hours away
from where he lived. This was not the same part
of Utah where he and Twigs lived. I think it
was a three hour drive each time that he visited.
(42:38):
So it's something that and they say, when you commit
murder in a premeditated sense, you never commit the murder
once that you commit it over and over and over
in your mind before you make that final act.
Speaker 5 (42:51):
And that's clearly what he did here.
Speaker 4 (42:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 8 (42:53):
In fact, I think some of the text messages, if
they're accurate, in fact, he says that he's been planning this,
you know, for about a week. So it's not as
if it were impulsive or in active passion. It's not
as if he lacks intelligence, and it's not as if
he doesn't have the capacity to understand right and wrong.
(43:14):
So I again with the Brian Kohlberger case, I think
there were some other issues where I think even his
confession itself might have been part of a plea deal.
But my understanding is that Tyler Robinson, I don't know
has he actually even acknowledged already you know that he
did this.
Speaker 4 (43:32):
I'm not sure do you know if he will.
Speaker 5 (43:35):
I don't believe he has in court.
Speaker 1 (43:37):
But what we do know is that's he's obviously, there's
the text messages, there's the discord chat where he comes
into and says, hey, guys, I just wanted to let
you know that was me yesterday. And then we're also
told that when his parents confronted him, he implied to
them that it was in fact him, and really his
parents figured it out.
Speaker 5 (43:56):
I mean they you know, they saw the gun.
Speaker 1 (43:58):
It was a a unique recognizable rifle to them. And
then of course the fact that and this is what
I keep coming back to, is even beyond all of
the now of course they'll have to prove in court
that the evidence the DNA, et cetera. But the fact
that it was his parent that made the idea and
not law enforcement, I think that makes a very strong
case because what parent is not going to identify their
(44:21):
own child?
Speaker 4 (44:22):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 8 (44:23):
And my goodness, we haven't even gotten into talking about, say,
Lance Twiggs's allegedly what his mother was allegedly doing as
well with some of the Venmoll payments. Maybe we'll save
that for another day. But no, I definitely don't see
Tyler Robinson being able to successfully plead, you know, to
insanity because usually I think that that type of a
(44:47):
plead deal would be offered if the prosecution you know,
needed to get it, or if he actually had a
legitimate case to plead insanity as the reason why he
would have done this. And I don't see either one
of those being plausible here. My hope in prayer is
that he has to take full accountability for what he did.
(45:09):
I think that would be actually really good for society
as well. I think our society is organized better when
people have a sense of accountability. So, you know, I
love Erica Kirk forgiving him, but I also don't think
that necessarily meant that she, you know, was arguing against
(45:29):
the death penalty for him either.
Speaker 1 (45:32):
Yeah, and Erica has mentioned this a few times publicly
interviews with Fox News and The New York Times when
asked about it, that you know, she I believe the
line she used is that I don't want his blood
on my hands, and totally understandable because as a Christian,
she wants to go to heaven and see Charlie again.
(45:54):
And you know, at the same time, I come from
the same perspective as you, where it's about correction for society.
And by the way, Charlie himself was in general a
supporter of the death penalty on the very same grounds.
He points out that the Bible mandates it early on
in even all the way back to the Torah, and
(46:16):
that Charlie pointed out that it is the proper corrective
for society. And I love the way that he put it,
and I tweet this out sometimes where he said, it's
not just about punishing the victim or punishing the perpetrator,
It's about showing society that the victim's life had value.
And that's really what it all is, isn't it That
we learn to value each other as individuals. Even if
(46:39):
we disagree that we can still at least agree that
we each do have that value exactly.
Speaker 4 (46:45):
And there's also an element of deterrence.
Speaker 8 (46:47):
That's another one of the points you know, of our
justice system in the first place. I think that Trump
in this case or another case called for a swift
and public execution. I think that might have been for them.
Speaker 5 (46:59):
To be calls for that in every case.
Speaker 8 (47:02):
Yeah, but I do think that there is again a
value in that, you know, for for the fact of deterrence,
and you know, for the fact of ownership of justice,
that it shouldn't be something you know that has to
be done, you know, in private. I also, frankly, don't
think it should necessarily have to be something that happens with,
(47:23):
you know, some kind of a you know, painless youth
in Asia procedure either. I mean, I think that there
is value in the Arlie.
Speaker 1 (47:33):
Charlie talked about this and we did a show together
and people have clipped it up, but he talked about
this the exact same way way you are, Doctor Chloe Carmichael.
Speaker 5 (47:41):
Where can people go to follow you and get the book?
Speaker 4 (47:43):
Thanks Jack?
Speaker 8 (47:44):
Free Speech Today, Dot com that's free speech today dot com.
I'd love to connect with people there for my book,
for my social media, and for little groups about the importance.
Speaker 4 (47:54):
Of free speech.
Speaker 5 (47:55):
Ladies and gentlemen, has always you have my permission to
lay ashore
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