November 5, 2024 • 33 mins
As we finish up our next episode, and given that everyone’s minds are probably occupied with the Election today, the Rebel Spirit team wanted to take a moment to look back on the process of making this podcast over the last year. Akilah sat down with producers Dan Sinker and Elizabeth Baquet for a conversation about everything they experienced while pushing for change. Hope you enjoy it and we will be back next week with our tenth episode covering Akilah's journey.
If you have a racist mascot at your high school, or are an alumni of a high school with a racist mascot, and want to share your own experience, please email us at rebelspiritpodcast@gmail.com. We would love to talk to you!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
My old black dollars.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
Dona overlanding Rendro.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
I don't know, Ninth Planet Audio dot com.
Speaker 3 (00:09):
We're over landing here.
Speaker 4 (00:13):
Hello everyone. First of all, thank you so much for
coming on this journey with me. It has been honestly,
really incredible seeing the reactions to each episode and feeling
all the support for changing the Boone County High School mascot.
So next week we will be sharing episode ten that
features my final plea to the school based decision making
council about changing the mascot. Ironically, it landed on June
(00:35):
teenth of this year, so we were able to join
in on Florence's juneteen celebration and catch up with our
local supporters. I've also been able to have a few
more encouraging conversations, which I'm excited for you all to
hear next week. It's very star studded, very fun. As
we finish up that episode, and given that everyone's minds
are probably preoccupied with the election, I wanted to take
(00:57):
a moment today to give you more of an insight
on the process of making this podcast over the last year.
I'm going to take you back now to about two
weeks before the podcast was set to air, I sat
down with my producers Dan Sinker and Elizabeth Baquett for
more of a casual conversation about everything we experience while
making the podcast and what I hope the impact will
be beyond changing my high school's mascot. And we will
(01:19):
be back next week with episode ten, featuring the conclusion.
For now, at least of this journey. I was a
leady rebbel, like, what does that even need? The Boone
County Rebels will stay, the Boode County Rebels with the
image of right here in black and white and.
Speaker 5 (01:33):
Friends figures is a flag or mask on.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
Anytime you're trying to mess with tradition, you get to
be ready for a serious.
Speaker 4 (01:41):
Backgrounds from Ninth Planet Audio. I'm Akila Hughes and this
is Rebel Spirit looking back.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
We've got Dan in from Chicago.
Speaker 4 (02:01):
Yes, we're all in person. I know it's wind in person,
not in Kentucky.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
I know.
Speaker 4 (02:05):
Yeah, it's different. The energy is definitely different. It seems
a little bit more supportive. Yeah. So we're just fourteen
days out from Rebel Spirit launching and I'm super excited
about it. This has been like a year or more
in the making. At this point, and so it feels
like in some ways like I've been dying for it
(02:27):
to come out. And then it's also like the kids
are back in school. There's gonna be a lot of
eyes on this. So yeah, I mean I would open
it to the floor. How's everybody feeling two weeks out
from I mean episode one? I adore, So I'm like,
I'm excited about it, but yeah, maybe just selfishly from
a like I like to put work out into the world,
(02:48):
and it's something that we put a lot of work into.
But how are you guys feeling good?
Speaker 1 (02:54):
I mean, it's we've been at this for more than
a year, and the first episode especially, it's been done
for a while, yeah, you know, and so I am
definitely ready.
Speaker 4 (03:08):
To start dropping the Yes, totally.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
Like really really excited about it. I mean, the time
has been well spent. You know. They are better than when, yeah,
than when we first started them. But yeah, I'm definitely
ready ready for them to come out.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
Yeah, And it does feel kind of poetic that it's
not exactly homecoming week that the first episode is out.
It's like the week before, but it is essentially back
to school and when we were there a year ago.
Essentially starting the process of this campaign.
Speaker 4 (03:39):
I don't know, there's only a little bit of anxiety
because I also have already heard all of the pushback.
You know, right, anything new, right? Yeah, No, one's come
up with the right like it's it's been the same
regurgitated lives for a minute. So I don't feel like
anything is going to blindside me. I think it's just
going to be you know, people who either don't listen
(04:01):
to it and they're still just digging their heels in,
or people who never thought about this idea and are like, wow,
that seems simple enough, why can't they just change it?
So I don't know, lots of feelings like that, just anticipating,
but really I can't predict anything at this point.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
What do you hope people to kind of take away
from what the work you've put in and like how
to apply that for other people who are trying to
make changes.
Speaker 4 (04:25):
I mean, I think the first thing is I really
want people to appreciate the work that went into it,
Like we've all been really grinding, We've been coming up
with ideas for how to tackle this in a way
that I think creatively is really inspiring. Like I'm inspired
by the process, and I feel like there are other
schools that could do something with this, and it feels
like something that lives beyond the podcast. So I hope
(04:46):
that people really do think about how they were brought
up and where they went to school and things ways
that they can be involved in their community. But I
also think, like you know, I think that the reality
of bureaucracy and the sort of fear that some people
have about standing up for anything. I hope that people,
(05:08):
you know, take that seriously and take it to heart
and recognize that it's not that people aren't trying to
make the world a better place necessarily, it's just that
there is a lot of pushback. There's a lot of risk,
and you know, hopefully when this episode comes out, I'm
not like blacklisted canceled and you're like, yeah, she was right,
she shouldn't said anything.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
Or lost.
Speaker 4 (05:29):
For episodes are like a free a KI launch. Yeah,
yeah she's detained and you know, we don't have any
hostages to exchange. But like, truly, I feel like it
is Yeah, it's just such a process that it feels
like there was no way to do it in fewer episodes.
We had to get to this point and it feels
(05:51):
like a real journey, so you.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
Know, totally, and it's and just to like kind of
be clear for people listening, our team is the three
of us, yeah, plus are incredible editor Josie and our
assistant and that's it. Yeah, so it's a small but
mighty team. It's all about just bringing fun and like yeah, and.
Speaker 4 (06:10):
You know what I mean, like that idea of having
people who disagree, you know, still have some value in
what we're trying to do there. Like it's not just
to say, like the tradition here sucks. It's far bigger
than that, where it's like, but you get to be
a part of the future of the place. Like you
get to write a new story in a new chapter,
and how exciting is that? Like how many opportunities do
(06:31):
you really get to do that? So I do think that,
like it is funny that like in the sort of
progressive world, we're having this moment of like, oh, what's
that hope feel like? And I'm like, that's what the
podcast looks like to me.
Speaker 1 (06:43):
Yeah, I mean to me, it's you know a thing
that I would I would like to think that the
folks in Florence could take back from it, but other
folks as well, is you know, so much of this
has been about these people tried it this way, These
people tried it that way, Like there is no one
like I think, if anything, to me, like over the
(07:04):
course of the year is realizing like, oh, we were
just such stupid babie ago, Like we thought we'd show
up and they'd be like, yeah, that's great, you know,
and just realizing like, you know, you talk to people
that have been at this for twenty years, you know,
you talk to people that came in at the very
end of like in Denver South that was really a
fifty year project. You know that that that then the
(07:28):
principle comes in at the very end of and is
finally able to get it over the line, you know,
like and each tactic that a place takes is specific to.
Speaker 4 (07:37):
That place, you know, and it's never just the one try.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
Right, you know, it's it's so many tries and it's
so many people to that point, right, And I think
that that, to me is one of the biggest things
that I kind of took away from it was just
how many different people we talked to and how you know,
while there were shared bits of a playbook, it was
always something different. It was always a different way that
(08:01):
they had to get this done.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
Absolutely, yeah, Yeah, and kind of speaking to I mean
truly the like dozens of people in interviews that were
done for the podcast. I'm wondering if there's because I think,
you know, one of our sort of additional episodes might
kind of be a little bit of a deeper dive
on some of the interviews because we were only able
to use snippets of what were like half hour or
(08:24):
forty five minute interviews. But I'm wondering, from both of
you who did the majority of the interviews, is there
one that kind of stood out as surprising or really
kind of helped kind of shift thoughts on this process,
or was just one of the people who kind of
had like a light bulb moment for you as as
you were talking to them off.
Speaker 4 (08:44):
The top of my head, just because it was so
recent speaking with Jamel Hill, who you know, was outspoken
politically on a social network, you know, not on TV,
and still faced huge backlash. And instead of you know,
taking that and sort of tucking her tail between her
legs and being like, oh I learned my lesson, I'm
never going to say anything. It opened up a whole
(09:06):
additional part of her career and her life, you know,
like she found love, she moved on with her life,
and she's now able to be a lot more free,
and I think that just feels really good. Like that
interview was, you know, about this sort of sadness of
not being able to find a connection with Sean Alexander
(09:27):
to that point and just having her be like, you know,
I get why people don't speak out, but also I
am a great example of a person who did, and
so I don't know, I was really inspired. I find
myself thinking back to that conversation a lot.
Speaker 1 (09:43):
Yeah, I mean it's hard to pick one, you know,
in part because I will listen back sometimes and be like, oh, right,
we did that, yeah, same, you know, like there's been
so many over so long. But I think that and
it might be because I've listened through that episode a
number of times recently. But Bobby Thomas from Denver, South right, Like,
(10:03):
at that point when we were when we finally connected
with him, we had been trying and trying and trying
to connect with people that had made that change, and
especially at the administration level, we could not find we
could not get anyone.
Speaker 4 (10:19):
To, you know, I mean it was it was.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
Remarkable how many like principles that were there at the
time that a change had been made that I reached
out to and they were like, oh, yeah, I don't
work there anymore, and I don't really talk about that anymore,
you know, I mean just and not just didn't work there,
but like worked somewhere halfway across the country, you know,
(10:42):
like they were able to get the change through and
then they got down from it. And like Bobby Thomas,
he's not at Denver South, but actually moved up in
the in that same district, and so talking with him,
to me, there's just a moment in that where he's
like it just fills my coat to talk about this,
and it was like, oh, me too now.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
And wasn't he wearing like the shirt he.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
Had a Rebels thing on? And then he put the.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
He had a whole thing for the interview.
Speaker 4 (11:17):
Yeah, it was awesome. Yeah, And it's like, yeah, I
think just getting to hear someone who was successful talk
about like, you know, there was some risk to his family,
and you know, I think that maybe the weird sort
of like underbelly of such in my mind, very hopeful
podcast is like the reality is it's not necessarily safe,
(11:39):
Like there are people who are so committed to this
ugly history that they will threaten you. But also like
seeing him rise above that and to see the school
blossom because of it, Like that, that's that hope right now.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
Totally talking of it, everyone talked about that subtler through
line of the pushback, but also like threats that they received.
I mean Annie talked about getting a call as a
kid and being like it just that being really scary,
and you know, Spencer and Jenna and everyone who was
sort of in support and Bethany like family members who
(12:15):
were against them, and you know, I think for certain people,
you know, it maybe is less of like a danger feeling,
but certainly it came with its own consequences of kind
of speaking out even just like writing it in off
it was all it was.
Speaker 4 (12:31):
Yeah, yeah, it's like and people are just so married
to it, I mean, in that same vein Yeah, I
would say talking with Annie just because I mean we
obviously have a great child actor reading the letter, but
it is such a powerful letter to get from a child,
you know, and I think that like I was inspired
by that, Like I you know, when I was in
(12:51):
high school. I knew that the rebel was wrong, and
I talked to the black kids about it, but I
didn't petition the school, you know. I was like, let's
just get the hell out.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
Of here, which is valid, right.
Speaker 4 (13:02):
Because I'm like, you know, high school is hard enough, totally,
and so I think that there, you know, I was
heartened by the fact that someone was in the experience
and doing it and you know, stuck with it and
came back to town years later, and so I'm like,
you know what, maybe there's something to that. Maybe I'm
not just some weirdo coastal elite.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
Well, and I thought it was also interesting Curtis Wilkie's
perspective on it, being so like truly his whole career,
He's eighty three, being a rebel at ole miss and
sort of saying, you know, well, the word rebel, I like,
I like being you know, against the mainstream and everything.
But if some if it's offensive to someone, I'm okay.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
With the chance.
Speaker 4 (13:42):
Exactly.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
It felt so simple, like, yes, you can have strong
feelings about it and your history with it and be okay.
Speaker 4 (13:51):
Exactly with it changing.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
And that just doesn't seem to exist in.
Speaker 4 (13:55):
Some totally right, right, And I think, you know, it
is this sort of nirational story of like, well, I
think we're finally ready. Yeah, I think your grandparents got it.
I think your great great grandparents got it. I think
now we have a generation that is diverse enough and
loud enough, and excited enough about the future and involved enough,
(14:16):
because you know, I'm sure there were people along all
of these decades that felt it and we're just like,
I'm up against too much. Yeah, And so you know,
I feel like this is the right moment. And I mean, gosh,
the interviews were just great. All yeah, it's all great.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
And then I'm also wondering. I feel like there were
a few sort of surprising moments in the process, separate
from sort of the interviews but more locally the conversations
that we went to. Yeah, so my question is kind
of surprising both good and bad, Like, you know, there
are sort of both sides of the coin there, But
if there were, if you can kind of speak to
(14:53):
maybe a couple of moments that were surprising in a
good way, and then obviously we had some surprising in
a bad way moment and so totally maybe like one.
Speaker 4 (15:01):
Of each of those I mean, I think I'm probably
speaking for all of us when I say going to
the board meeting and being completely blindsided by a coalition
of progressive Kentuckians speaking out against SB one fifty, speaking
out for trans children, speaking out for like, you know,
(15:22):
anything progressive in a town that seems really under wraps
and very you know, tightly wound and conservative. That was.
I mean, I still teer up every time I think
about that, Like I have the pin that we got
the rainbow heartpen, and I'm like, I grew up here.
I know that this isn't something that you could get
away with then, So it's like that feels like such
real progress that, Like I it was this moment of like,
(15:47):
oh we're not alone. Yeah, we actually have some people
who are like already ruffling feathers, already standing up for
what's right, you know. And there didn't seem to be
so many negative side effects to that, you know what
I mean, Like, if anything, they found community in a
place where I think people can be very lonely and isolated,
and that's why these sort of traditions stick around. It's
like no, they're they're reaching out to each other and
(16:08):
they're lifting each other up. So that was a great positive.
And then obviously miss Junteenth is just like in my
mind I would not say a nemesis because not powerful enough. Yeah,
just like an annoyance like that situation we right for
that week.
Speaker 1 (16:25):
She was a nemesis right right, in part because she
was inescapable. Right everywhere we would turn, she would be there,
she'd be leaving messages. We'd show up in a place
and she it was whi.
Speaker 4 (16:38):
It was wild. And I think that, like the reason
I can't get past it, like and just be like,
say something else negative is because the school district really
did seem invested in putting her forward as the black
face to say it's fine. Yeah, And when when we
had this conversation about it, which we obviously couldn't run
(17:00):
in full, I felt just like do you even believe
what you're saying? Like that was the I think the
disappointment was, like what is what is the endgame here?
Because like you you there's no world where you believe
this is right, you know what I mean, Like, there's
no world where you are a black person who's like
(17:20):
I'm actually great with the Confederate theme of the school.
And I think that black kids should go to a
school like this, and I think that, like, you know,
we actually shouldn't change anything else to be more positive
or bring in any change, Like I don't buy it,
and so I'm like, oh, then, like what's the grift?
Like for me? There was no benefit for her, right,
(17:41):
And so I was like that sucks. Carrying water for
people who literally don't give a shit about you is
how I felt. And so just very that was like,
I mean for me, gosh, totally pissed me off.
Speaker 1 (17:55):
And that it that it came literally the night after
you had come back from the school board and had
had really been quite lifted by what we had seen,
Like you know, I mean we really walked into that
room and we were like, whoa, this is super full,
like shit's going down and this is not going to
be good. And then it was exactly the opposite of
(18:17):
what we had expected. And we really did come back
from that night like whoa, Okay, like change is possible.
And then you were like I just got a weird
voicemail and then it was off to the races, right,
And by the end of that week, it was like, oh,
this is this is not working.
Speaker 4 (18:39):
So disheartening.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
Yeah, it was so disheartening.
Speaker 4 (18:42):
And now I think like at the end of this process,
I mean, who knows if it's the end, But at
this point in the process, like that so doesn't matter,
you know what I mean, like we've gotten so much right,
It's like that was their poultry attempt to, you know,
just kill the movement. Yeah, and I'm like, great, well
that was cute. We're gonna keep going.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
Yeah. Well, and it also it did make us work harder.
Speaker 4 (19:08):
Yeah, And that's a fact.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
And that wasn't necessarily a bad thing. You know, Like
the number of angles and approaches that we took after
that week was was so much more than we had
originally kind of envisioned. And the and the people that
we you know, that week that we connected with, that's
(19:32):
where we met j and b LDG. You know, that's
where we met Spencer, That's where you know, there were
a number of moments in that in that week that
really did kind of send us off in directions that
we weren't expecting to go. And and I do feel
like the complete door slam that we got from the
(19:52):
administration pushed us in a way that ultimately the show
is better for And I think that people that have
listened have gone much further than you know, with us
than they would have gone.
Speaker 4 (20:08):
Absolutely, absolutely, and it's you know, it just mirrors reality
because it is it's like, yeah, you you don't necessarily
get the easy win. You have to figure out so
many strategies to figure it out. And yeah, it does
feel just like we were able to connect with far
more people who have done far more with their lives
once we were sort of like you know, pushed out.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
Yeah, yeah, well, and I feel like that kind of
it's such a small town feel too, for being right
outside of Cincinnati. It was kind of that vibe of
like everyone who is involved with the school directly has
a lot to lose potentially, and it's just not worth
it for them, which is unfortunate because it feels like
(20:52):
a selfish choice given the students that they serve, Like
the board positions are elected, you should be serving your constituents,
and you know, people are there advocating, and so much
of the what was frustratingly thrown at us felt just
like bureaucracy and just like, oh, well, we can't talk
(21:13):
about this at the board. We don't have any jurisdiction.
So much run around of just who can do what,
and the in reality, it's like, if someone of power
wants this to happen, it would be done. So like
that's been proven literally in other counties and districts in Kentucky.
So we've seen that if the board were to mandate
(21:34):
all the problematic mascots of any sort need to go away,
then it happened.
Speaker 4 (21:38):
I mean they were able to do it with mister Rebel,
you know, they were able to do it with the
Confederate flags in the nineties. So it's like, it is
kind of this strange, I don't know, it's weird that
you would rely on that lie when history has shown
this at your school that like actually just took one
person standing up and say, but we're not doing that anymore.
Speaker 2 (21:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
I mean they have hung a lot of things around,
a lot of lies for a very long time, right,
Like whatever lie is convenient at the moment is the
one that you can hang on to, you know, and
not a lot of people will question it, you know,
And I think that that's that was one of the
really early things for me, was like this Jameston thing.
Speaker 5 (22:20):
Just so clearly not true, and it was like, how
do we just figure this out, you.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
Know, and just and then and then definitively we did it.
Just took a lot of looking at archives and to
be to be you know, I mean, the the Boone
County Library System, to their credit, digitized everything decades and
decades of newspapers, which is amazing, Like you don't see
(22:51):
that in a lot of places. And so we were
able to do that work and and just shift sift
through it all. There was no there was no way
of doing it quick is just read and read and
read and read and read and finally figure it out.
But it's like just the convenience of lies, you know,
and really how easy those lies are to disprove, you know,
(23:12):
is I think one of the big lessons of this
is and I mean that's always been true, Like the
history of racism in America is the history of very
easily pushed over that everyone will hang on to and
and it's just that they hang onto it. That power
hangs onto a weak lie is what keeps that lie around, right,
(23:34):
But if you can disprove it, it weakens, you know.
I mean, I'm we don't know yet what the reaction
of the rebel without a cause exposure, I can't.
Speaker 4 (23:48):
I feel like I'm gonna get blocked on Facebook everybody
and they're.
Speaker 5 (23:51):
Like, no ship.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
And maybe I'm naive, but I don't know how you
stand that up still sure that, yeah, because it is
so flimsy. Yeah, and it is so disproved right well.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
And beyond that, I mean, even just looking in the
library at the yearbooks and all of the like images
of mister Rebel, all the Confederate images, the literal like
slave day that they had was all so clearly problematic.
And I think what's interesting is when even we had
one of the Louisville Public Radio covered the Juneteenth when
(24:27):
we were there and you know, showing that reporter some
of the photos and like what was in near book.
I mean, she was just shocked.
Speaker 4 (24:33):
She was like, this is real. This in like the
fact that it was not in nineteen fifty but it
was in the eighties and ninety It's like, and.
Speaker 2 (24:38):
So the fact that there isn't a desire to distance
from that but rather to claim that as.
Speaker 4 (24:45):
The history, it's just so well, you know what it
is at the end of the day. And like I
think I've said it before, but it's like it's cowardice.
It's like you can look at the reality of history
and say, you know what, the people who came before
me were wrong. Fortunately they were wrong and the thing
they did hurt people, and we can be better now,
or you can make up one hundred lies that like
(25:07):
anybody with eyes and eyes that work can look at
them and say, guess what that's not James Dean. Yeah, no,
one's confused about it. Like he was never in the yearbook.
They didn't mention him when he died. I mean, like
these are this is obvious stuff, and it's like you
have to wonder, like if you're in that deep of
denial to make this up and then stand by it
(25:28):
when it's like we're looking at the thing well and even.
Speaker 2 (25:32):
Hearing just anecdotally from like Quincy when he talked about
the shooting machine still.
Speaker 4 (25:36):
Has moster rebel on it.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
And then throughout the year we've seen sort of images
pop up with you know, it being on uniforms that
were sold at Walgreens and the wrestling shorts and things
like that. It's just so clear, and we talked about
it in the podcast that until the rebel's name is gone,
that's always going to be an aspect of it. As
much as they say that there's no more Confederate or
(26:00):
Cerebel imagery. It's like twenty twenty four and still there.
Speaker 4 (26:03):
Right, so and how happy I mean, I again if
they don't ever change the name. But they're like, it's
the James Dan Rebels. Now everybody's wearing little leather jackets
and we're all greasers and we have emotional problems, like sure, sure, okay, fine,
but it's like there's no like you're saying you can't
divorce those two things, like, and they're not going to
(26:25):
commit to doing James Dean and they're not going to
get the rights to Star Wars. Maybe that should have
been our angle all along.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
Yeah, George Lucas is on board with allowing high schools.
Speaker 4 (26:36):
Yeah, the Star Wars. There is a team from Mascot
d B called the Millennium Falcons. Cool but they're just Falcons.
But they like started the school in two thousands, So
like that's sick, that's actually but that's what I feel like.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
There's such an opportunity to be cool and creative and right,
you know, I think in I can't quite remember which episode,
but you know, there's an episode where we kind of
speak to some of the local things that it could be, like,
you know, there are various there's cool birds and like
different types of butterflies that are local to the area.
There could be something really neat about it. And it's
(27:11):
just so not anything right right.
Speaker 4 (27:15):
I mean, one thing that's funny that didn't get in
the podcast, but something somewhere where we sort of started
was the fact that like Daniel Boone is a person
who is deeply discredited throughout history. His bones aren't even
in Kentucky. And it's like, so it's like, I do
think that there is almost this long.
Speaker 1 (27:33):
That was like one of the very first planning calls
that me and you had, and it.
Speaker 3 (27:38):
Was just like, oh my god, how deep are we
going here, Like we've exposed one line now we're realizingly
right Boone County is named after a guy who isn't
buried there, like.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
Who lies might be a black man in his grave.
And the one like it was just oh my god,
that was like an hour where.
Speaker 4 (27:56):
It was I bought a book.
Speaker 1 (27:58):
Further down we go.
Speaker 4 (28:00):
It's like very Daniel Boone like scaffolding of life when
you think of it that way, like this is just
the longest history of lying it's like it does feel
more lighthearted in the end, where you're like, oh, these
people are just lyars on way down, Like you got
to just say listen, we're gonna start telling the truth
(28:21):
now today. Sorry about all that weird stuff because like
it is just this interesting history where I'm like, that's
it's very fascinating.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
Okay, my last question, well whatever, you can keep talking.
But my last question, for the most part, is like,
how has this changed, if at all, your relationship with
your hometown and how you feel about it again, both
good and bad. Like there's probably people that we met
along this, you know, this process that you, as a
high school student would have been thrilled to know about,
but maybe didn't exist then. So yeah, I mean you've
(28:51):
spent you know, we've made a few trips back, so
you spent some more time there.
Speaker 4 (28:55):
Yeah, I mean, I guess I'll start with the good.
I do think that like Amber Hoffman, that group of people,
you know, the librarians, the women we met at Juneteenth
who were running for office, Like there seems to be
some whispers of hope there in a way that like
truly there was none of that growing up. Like I
can't express enough how Like when I say it's changed,
(29:18):
it has changed monumentally in my lifetime. I think that,
you know, I've spoken to a few friends who are
from small places in the South who are now in
New York or Chicago or LA or Nashville, and even
people who were like progressive but could not talk about
it in high school, who I've known for years and
(29:39):
years who are in the South again but didn't choose
Kentucky and didn't choose Florence. And so like, the thing
that we all keep kind of coming back to is like,
why why is this place worth saving? And I think
that it's always been very clear for me because I'm like, well,
there are other kids who are gonna have to go
(30:00):
through this, and like it sucked having to consistently be
like I'm rooting for this where I'm I'm competing on
behalf of this thing. It's on the outfit I have
to wear, like it's you know, that was awful. So
like it's enough. But then there's also just the conversations
with those people who are like, well, I just never
go home again. Yeah, And so like I think that
(30:22):
if the backlash to this is something where it's dangerous
to go back, or my mom has to move or
you know, just like whatever I've had to think about,
like am I okay? Never like using that airport to
get to Cincinnati and like never stopping. And I don't
want to feel that way. Like there's a lot I
(30:43):
do think there's so much hope there, Like truly the
Florence y'all's what they were able to achieve, the fact
that it's something to do the fact that there are sidewalks,
which I harp on it on a podcast, like these
are things that I think are valuable, and I think
that the history is in and so it's like there's
no loss to me. But I do feel like my
(31:05):
my only trepidation is like I don't want it to
be a place where I can never go again, even
if it's somewhere I don't go, you know, all the
time in the future. I guess just to say I
think that, like this is such a worthwhile process, like
it's worked that I'm really proud of, not just because
I think the podcast is amazing, which I do. I
(31:25):
think it's like as a product, wonderful, like we should
be very proud of, like how hard we worked and
how many amazing people we got to speak with, Like
that feels like a real privilege, but beyond just like
it being good in that way, Like I think that
I have also learned that when you are trying to
do something positive, people will just find it and find you.
(31:48):
Like the moment we met Amber Hoffman, she must have
mentioned us to a few people. Suddenly I'm getting emails
from people who are like, this is so great. I
just wanted to tell you to keep going, or you know,
I'm trying to do something similar, like this sounds really interesting.
When I posted the trailer for the podcast over the summer,
I got so many messages from people who were like,
I went to a college that was the Rebels, and
(32:09):
I hate that about it. I went to a high
school that was like this, and it makes so much
sense to me now, but I back then, you know,
I played football there, Like there is this growth that
you get to see in this, you know, excitement around it.
And then the other thing was just like getting messages
from people who were lucky enough to be at a
school that maybe didn't change from a problematic mascot, but
(32:30):
they were there when they were consolidating school, so they
got to choose their mascot and it was, you know,
the nineties, so they got to choose something cool and
they're like, oh my gosh, we're the Wave and our
colors are teal and purple and it's like in Virginia
or something, and You're like, this is like the fact
that you're so excited to share, this is what I'm
hoping for. So I think that what I learned was
like just the idea of like, I'm not the only
(32:52):
person thinking that we should do something better here, and
people who want to help you change something will find you.
So it's like, I think it's just it's worth the
risk totally. That's what I got. Rebel Spirit is a
production of Ninth Planet Audio and association with iHeart Podcasts.
Reporting and writing by me Akuila Hughes. I'm also an
(33:13):
executive producer and the host. Produced by Dan Sinker, edited
by Josie A.
Speaker 5 (33:19):
Zahm Our.
Speaker 4 (33:20):
Assistant editor is Jennifer Dean. Music composed by Charlie Sun,
Sound design and mixing by Josie A. Zahmb Our. Production
coordinator is Kyle Hinton. Our clearance coordinator is Anna Sunenshine.
Production accounting by Dill pret Sing. Additional research support from
Janis Dillard. Special thanks to Jay Becker and the whole
team at BLDG the Florence y'alls, Amber Hoffman, and Leslie Chambers.
(33:44):
Executive producers for Ninth Planet Audio are Elizabeth Baquet and
Jimmy Miller
My old black dollars.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
Dona overlanding Rendro.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
I don't know, Ninth Planet Audio dot com.
Speaker 3 (00:09):
We're over landing here.
Speaker 4 (00:13):
Hello everyone. First of all, thank you so much for
coming on this journey with me. It has been honestly,
really incredible seeing the reactions to each episode and feeling
all the support for changing the Boone County High School mascot.
So next week we will be sharing episode ten that
features my final plea to the school based decision making
council about changing the mascot. Ironically, it landed on June
(00:35):
teenth of this year, so we were able to join
in on Florence's juneteen celebration and catch up with our
local supporters. I've also been able to have a few
more encouraging conversations, which I'm excited for you all to
hear next week. It's very star studded, very fun. As
we finish up that episode, and given that everyone's minds
are probably preoccupied with the election, I wanted to take
(00:57):
a moment today to give you more of an insight
on the process of making this podcast over the last year.
I'm going to take you back now to about two
weeks before the podcast was set to air, I sat
down with my producers Dan Sinker and Elizabeth Baquett for
more of a casual conversation about everything we experience while
making the podcast and what I hope the impact will
be beyond changing my high school's mascot. And we will
(01:19):
be back next week with episode ten, featuring the conclusion.
For now, at least of this journey. I was a
leady rebbel, like, what does that even need? The Boone
County Rebels will stay, the Boode County Rebels with the
image of right here in black and white and.
Speaker 5 (01:33):
Friends figures is a flag or mask on.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
Anytime you're trying to mess with tradition, you get to
be ready for a serious.
Speaker 4 (01:41):
Backgrounds from Ninth Planet Audio. I'm Akila Hughes and this
is Rebel Spirit looking back.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
We've got Dan in from Chicago.
Speaker 4 (02:01):
Yes, we're all in person. I know it's wind in person,
not in Kentucky.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
I know.
Speaker 4 (02:05):
Yeah, it's different. The energy is definitely different. It seems
a little bit more supportive. Yeah. So we're just fourteen
days out from Rebel Spirit launching and I'm super excited
about it. This has been like a year or more
in the making. At this point, and so it feels
like in some ways like I've been dying for it
(02:27):
to come out. And then it's also like the kids
are back in school. There's gonna be a lot of
eyes on this. So yeah, I mean I would open
it to the floor. How's everybody feeling two weeks out
from I mean episode one? I adore, So I'm like,
I'm excited about it, but yeah, maybe just selfishly from
a like I like to put work out into the world,
(02:48):
and it's something that we put a lot of work into.
But how are you guys feeling good?
Speaker 1 (02:54):
I mean, it's we've been at this for more than
a year, and the first episode especially, it's been done
for a while, yeah, you know, and so I am
definitely ready.
Speaker 4 (03:08):
To start dropping the Yes, totally.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
Like really really excited about it. I mean, the time
has been well spent. You know. They are better than when, yeah,
than when we first started them. But yeah, I'm definitely
ready ready for them to come out.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
Yeah, And it does feel kind of poetic that it's
not exactly homecoming week that the first episode is out.
It's like the week before, but it is essentially back
to school and when we were there a year ago.
Essentially starting the process of this campaign.
Speaker 4 (03:39):
I don't know, there's only a little bit of anxiety
because I also have already heard all of the pushback.
You know, right, anything new, right? Yeah, No, one's come
up with the right like it's it's been the same
regurgitated lives for a minute. So I don't feel like
anything is going to blindside me. I think it's just
going to be you know, people who either don't listen
(04:01):
to it and they're still just digging their heels in,
or people who never thought about this idea and are like, wow,
that seems simple enough, why can't they just change it?
So I don't know, lots of feelings like that, just anticipating,
but really I can't predict anything at this point.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
What do you hope people to kind of take away
from what the work you've put in and like how
to apply that for other people who are trying to
make changes.
Speaker 4 (04:25):
I mean, I think the first thing is I really
want people to appreciate the work that went into it,
Like we've all been really grinding, We've been coming up
with ideas for how to tackle this in a way
that I think creatively is really inspiring. Like I'm inspired
by the process, and I feel like there are other
schools that could do something with this, and it feels
like something that lives beyond the podcast. So I hope
(04:46):
that people really do think about how they were brought
up and where they went to school and things ways
that they can be involved in their community. But I
also think, like you know, I think that the reality
of bureaucracy and the sort of fear that some people
have about standing up for anything. I hope that people,
(05:08):
you know, take that seriously and take it to heart
and recognize that it's not that people aren't trying to
make the world a better place necessarily, it's just that
there is a lot of pushback. There's a lot of risk,
and you know, hopefully when this episode comes out, I'm
not like blacklisted canceled and you're like, yeah, she was right,
she shouldn't said anything.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
Or lost.
Speaker 4 (05:29):
For episodes are like a free a KI launch. Yeah,
yeah she's detained and you know, we don't have any
hostages to exchange. But like, truly, I feel like it
is Yeah, it's just such a process that it feels
like there was no way to do it in fewer episodes.
We had to get to this point and it feels
(05:51):
like a real journey, so you.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
Know, totally, and it's and just to like kind of
be clear for people listening, our team is the three
of us, yeah, plus are incredible editor Josie and our
assistant and that's it. Yeah, so it's a small but
mighty team. It's all about just bringing fun and like yeah, and.
Speaker 4 (06:10):
You know what I mean, like that idea of having
people who disagree, you know, still have some value in
what we're trying to do there. Like it's not just
to say, like the tradition here sucks. It's far bigger
than that, where it's like, but you get to be
a part of the future of the place. Like you
get to write a new story in a new chapter,
and how exciting is that? Like how many opportunities do
(06:31):
you really get to do that? So I do think that,
like it is funny that like in the sort of
progressive world, we're having this moment of like, oh, what's
that hope feel like? And I'm like, that's what the
podcast looks like to me.
Speaker 1 (06:43):
Yeah, I mean to me, it's you know a thing
that I would I would like to think that the
folks in Florence could take back from it, but other
folks as well, is you know, so much of this
has been about these people tried it this way, These
people tried it that way, Like there is no one
like I think, if anything, to me, like over the
(07:04):
course of the year is realizing like, oh, we were
just such stupid babie ago, Like we thought we'd show
up and they'd be like, yeah, that's great, you know,
and just realizing like, you know, you talk to people
that have been at this for twenty years, you know,
you talk to people that came in at the very
end of like in Denver South that was really a
fifty year project. You know that that that then the
(07:28):
principle comes in at the very end of and is
finally able to get it over the line, you know,
like and each tactic that a place takes is specific to.
Speaker 4 (07:37):
That place, you know, and it's never just the one try.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
Right, you know, it's it's so many tries and it's
so many people to that point, right, And I think
that that, to me is one of the biggest things
that I kind of took away from it was just
how many different people we talked to and how you know,
while there were shared bits of a playbook, it was
always something different. It was always a different way that
(08:01):
they had to get this done.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
Absolutely, yeah, Yeah, and kind of speaking to I mean
truly the like dozens of people in interviews that were
done for the podcast. I'm wondering if there's because I think,
you know, one of our sort of additional episodes might
kind of be a little bit of a deeper dive
on some of the interviews because we were only able
to use snippets of what were like half hour or
(08:24):
forty five minute interviews. But I'm wondering, from both of
you who did the majority of the interviews, is there
one that kind of stood out as surprising or really
kind of helped kind of shift thoughts on this process,
or was just one of the people who kind of
had like a light bulb moment for you as as
you were talking to them off.
Speaker 4 (08:44):
The top of my head, just because it was so
recent speaking with Jamel Hill, who you know, was outspoken
politically on a social network, you know, not on TV,
and still faced huge backlash. And instead of you know,
taking that and sort of tucking her tail between her
legs and being like, oh I learned my lesson, I'm
never going to say anything. It opened up a whole
(09:06):
additional part of her career and her life, you know,
like she found love, she moved on with her life,
and she's now able to be a lot more free,
and I think that just feels really good. Like that
interview was, you know, about this sort of sadness of
not being able to find a connection with Sean Alexander
(09:27):
to that point and just having her be like, you know,
I get why people don't speak out, but also I
am a great example of a person who did, and
so I don't know, I was really inspired. I find
myself thinking back to that conversation a lot.
Speaker 1 (09:43):
Yeah, I mean it's hard to pick one, you know,
in part because I will listen back sometimes and be like, oh, right,
we did that, yeah, same, you know, like there's been
so many over so long. But I think that and
it might be because I've listened through that episode a
number of times recently. But Bobby Thomas from Denver, South right, Like,
(10:03):
at that point when we were when we finally connected
with him, we had been trying and trying and trying
to connect with people that had made that change, and
especially at the administration level, we could not find we
could not get anyone.
Speaker 4 (10:19):
To, you know, I mean it was it was.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
Remarkable how many like principles that were there at the
time that a change had been made that I reached
out to and they were like, oh, yeah, I don't
work there anymore, and I don't really talk about that anymore,
you know, I mean just and not just didn't work there,
but like worked somewhere halfway across the country, you know,
(10:42):
like they were able to get the change through and
then they got down from it. And like Bobby Thomas,
he's not at Denver South, but actually moved up in
the in that same district, and so talking with him,
to me, there's just a moment in that where he's
like it just fills my coat to talk about this,
and it was like, oh, me too now.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
And wasn't he wearing like the shirt he.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
Had a Rebels thing on? And then he put the.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
He had a whole thing for the interview.
Speaker 4 (11:17):
Yeah, it was awesome. Yeah, And it's like, yeah, I
think just getting to hear someone who was successful talk
about like, you know, there was some risk to his family,
and you know, I think that maybe the weird sort
of like underbelly of such in my mind, very hopeful
podcast is like the reality is it's not necessarily safe,
(11:39):
Like there are people who are so committed to this
ugly history that they will threaten you. But also like
seeing him rise above that and to see the school
blossom because of it, Like that, that's that hope right now.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
Totally talking of it, everyone talked about that subtler through
line of the pushback, but also like threats that they received.
I mean Annie talked about getting a call as a
kid and being like it just that being really scary,
and you know, Spencer and Jenna and everyone who was
sort of in support and Bethany like family members who
(12:15):
were against them, and you know, I think for certain people,
you know, it maybe is less of like a danger feeling,
but certainly it came with its own consequences of kind
of speaking out even just like writing it in off
it was all it was.
Speaker 4 (12:31):
Yeah, yeah, it's like and people are just so married
to it, I mean, in that same vein Yeah, I
would say talking with Annie just because I mean we
obviously have a great child actor reading the letter, but
it is such a powerful letter to get from a child,
you know, and I think that like I was inspired
by that, Like I you know, when I was in
(12:51):
high school. I knew that the rebel was wrong, and
I talked to the black kids about it, but I
didn't petition the school, you know. I was like, let's
just get the hell out.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
Of here, which is valid, right.
Speaker 4 (13:02):
Because I'm like, you know, high school is hard enough, totally,
and so I think that there, you know, I was
heartened by the fact that someone was in the experience
and doing it and you know, stuck with it and
came back to town years later, and so I'm like,
you know what, maybe there's something to that. Maybe I'm
not just some weirdo coastal elite.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
Well, and I thought it was also interesting Curtis Wilkie's
perspective on it, being so like truly his whole career,
He's eighty three, being a rebel at ole miss and
sort of saying, you know, well, the word rebel, I like,
I like being you know, against the mainstream and everything.
But if some if it's offensive to someone, I'm okay.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
With the chance.
Speaker 4 (13:42):
Exactly.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
It felt so simple, like, yes, you can have strong
feelings about it and your history with it and be okay.
Speaker 4 (13:51):
Exactly with it changing.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
And that just doesn't seem to exist in.
Speaker 4 (13:55):
Some totally right, right, And I think, you know, it
is this sort of nirational story of like, well, I
think we're finally ready. Yeah, I think your grandparents got it.
I think your great great grandparents got it. I think
now we have a generation that is diverse enough and
loud enough, and excited enough about the future and involved enough,
(14:16):
because you know, I'm sure there were people along all
of these decades that felt it and we're just like,
I'm up against too much. Yeah, And so you know,
I feel like this is the right moment. And I mean, gosh,
the interviews were just great. All yeah, it's all great.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
And then I'm also wondering. I feel like there were
a few sort of surprising moments in the process, separate
from sort of the interviews but more locally the conversations
that we went to. Yeah, so my question is kind
of surprising both good and bad, Like, you know, there
are sort of both sides of the coin there, But
if there were, if you can kind of speak to
(14:53):
maybe a couple of moments that were surprising in a
good way, and then obviously we had some surprising in
a bad way moment and so totally maybe like one.
Speaker 4 (15:01):
Of each of those I mean, I think I'm probably
speaking for all of us when I say going to
the board meeting and being completely blindsided by a coalition
of progressive Kentuckians speaking out against SB one fifty, speaking
out for trans children, speaking out for like, you know,
(15:22):
anything progressive in a town that seems really under wraps
and very you know, tightly wound and conservative. That was.
I mean, I still teer up every time I think
about that, Like I have the pin that we got
the rainbow heartpen, and I'm like, I grew up here.
I know that this isn't something that you could get
away with then, So it's like that feels like such
real progress that, Like I it was this moment of like,
(15:47):
oh we're not alone. Yeah, we actually have some people
who are like already ruffling feathers, already standing up for
what's right, you know. And there didn't seem to be
so many negative side effects to that, you know what
I mean, Like, if anything, they found community in a
place where I think people can be very lonely and isolated,
and that's why these sort of traditions stick around. It's
like no, they're they're reaching out to each other and
(16:08):
they're lifting each other up. So that was a great positive.
And then obviously miss Junteenth is just like in my
mind I would not say a nemesis because not powerful enough. Yeah,
just like an annoyance like that situation we right for
that week.
Speaker 1 (16:25):
She was a nemesis right right, in part because she
was inescapable. Right everywhere we would turn, she would be there,
she'd be leaving messages. We'd show up in a place
and she it was whi.
Speaker 4 (16:38):
It was wild. And I think that, like the reason
I can't get past it, like and just be like,
say something else negative is because the school district really
did seem invested in putting her forward as the black
face to say it's fine. Yeah, And when when we
had this conversation about it, which we obviously couldn't run
(17:00):
in full, I felt just like do you even believe
what you're saying? Like that was the I think the
disappointment was, like what is what is the endgame here?
Because like you you there's no world where you believe
this is right, you know what I mean, Like, there's
no world where you are a black person who's like
(17:20):
I'm actually great with the Confederate theme of the school.
And I think that black kids should go to a
school like this, and I think that, like, you know,
we actually shouldn't change anything else to be more positive
or bring in any change, Like I don't buy it,
and so I'm like, oh, then, like what's the grift?
Like for me? There was no benefit for her, right,
(17:41):
And so I was like that sucks. Carrying water for
people who literally don't give a shit about you is
how I felt. And so just very that was like,
I mean for me, gosh, totally pissed me off.
Speaker 1 (17:55):
And that it that it came literally the night after
you had come back from the school board and had
had really been quite lifted by what we had seen,
Like you know, I mean we really walked into that
room and we were like, whoa, this is super full,
like shit's going down and this is not going to
be good. And then it was exactly the opposite of
(18:17):
what we had expected. And we really did come back
from that night like whoa, Okay, like change is possible.
And then you were like I just got a weird
voicemail and then it was off to the races, right,
And by the end of that week, it was like, oh,
this is this is not working.
Speaker 4 (18:39):
So disheartening.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
Yeah, it was so disheartening.
Speaker 4 (18:42):
And now I think like at the end of this process,
I mean, who knows if it's the end, But at
this point in the process, like that so doesn't matter,
you know what I mean, like we've gotten so much right,
It's like that was their poultry attempt to, you know,
just kill the movement. Yeah, and I'm like, great, well
that was cute. We're gonna keep going.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
Yeah. Well, and it also it did make us work harder.
Speaker 4 (19:08):
Yeah, And that's a fact.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
And that wasn't necessarily a bad thing. You know, Like
the number of angles and approaches that we took after
that week was was so much more than we had
originally kind of envisioned. And the and the people that
we you know, that week that we connected with, that's
(19:32):
where we met j and b LDG. You know, that's
where we met Spencer, That's where you know, there were
a number of moments in that in that week that
really did kind of send us off in directions that
we weren't expecting to go. And and I do feel
like the complete door slam that we got from the
(19:52):
administration pushed us in a way that ultimately the show
is better for And I think that people that have
listened have gone much further than you know, with us
than they would have gone.
Speaker 4 (20:08):
Absolutely, absolutely, and it's you know, it just mirrors reality
because it is it's like, yeah, you you don't necessarily
get the easy win. You have to figure out so
many strategies to figure it out. And yeah, it does
feel just like we were able to connect with far
more people who have done far more with their lives
once we were sort of like you know, pushed out.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
Yeah, yeah, well, and I feel like that kind of
it's such a small town feel too, for being right
outside of Cincinnati. It was kind of that vibe of
like everyone who is involved with the school directly has
a lot to lose potentially, and it's just not worth
it for them, which is unfortunate because it feels like
(20:52):
a selfish choice given the students that they serve, Like
the board positions are elected, you should be serving your constituents,
and you know, people are there advocating, and so much
of the what was frustratingly thrown at us felt just
like bureaucracy and just like, oh, well, we can't talk
(21:13):
about this at the board. We don't have any jurisdiction.
So much run around of just who can do what,
and the in reality, it's like, if someone of power
wants this to happen, it would be done. So like
that's been proven literally in other counties and districts in Kentucky.
So we've seen that if the board were to mandate
(21:34):
all the problematic mascots of any sort need to go away,
then it happened.
Speaker 4 (21:38):
I mean they were able to do it with mister Rebel,
you know, they were able to do it with the
Confederate flags in the nineties. So it's like, it is
kind of this strange, I don't know, it's weird that
you would rely on that lie when history has shown
this at your school that like actually just took one
person standing up and say, but we're not doing that anymore.
Speaker 2 (21:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
I mean they have hung a lot of things around,
a lot of lies for a very long time, right,
Like whatever lie is convenient at the moment is the
one that you can hang on to, you know, and
not a lot of people will question it, you know,
And I think that that's that was one of the
really early things for me, was like this Jameston thing.
Speaker 5 (22:20):
Just so clearly not true, and it was like, how
do we just figure this out, you.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
Know, and just and then and then definitively we did it.
Just took a lot of looking at archives and to
be to be you know, I mean, the the Boone
County Library System, to their credit, digitized everything decades and
decades of newspapers, which is amazing, Like you don't see
(22:51):
that in a lot of places. And so we were
able to do that work and and just shift sift
through it all. There was no there was no way
of doing it quick is just read and read and
read and read and read and finally figure it out.
But it's like just the convenience of lies, you know,
and really how easy those lies are to disprove, you know,
(23:12):
is I think one of the big lessons of this
is and I mean that's always been true, Like the
history of racism in America is the history of very
easily pushed over that everyone will hang on to and
and it's just that they hang onto it. That power
hangs onto a weak lie is what keeps that lie around, right,
(23:34):
But if you can disprove it, it weakens, you know.
I mean, I'm we don't know yet what the reaction
of the rebel without a cause exposure, I can't.
Speaker 4 (23:48):
I feel like I'm gonna get blocked on Facebook everybody
and they're.
Speaker 5 (23:51):
Like, no ship.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
And maybe I'm naive, but I don't know how you
stand that up still sure that, yeah, because it is
so flimsy. Yeah, and it is so disproved right well.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
And beyond that, I mean, even just looking in the
library at the yearbooks and all of the like images
of mister Rebel, all the Confederate images, the literal like
slave day that they had was all so clearly problematic.
And I think what's interesting is when even we had
one of the Louisville Public Radio covered the Juneteenth when
(24:27):
we were there and you know, showing that reporter some
of the photos and like what was in near book.
I mean, she was just shocked.
Speaker 4 (24:33):
She was like, this is real. This in like the
fact that it was not in nineteen fifty but it
was in the eighties and ninety It's like, and.
Speaker 2 (24:38):
So the fact that there isn't a desire to distance
from that but rather to claim that as.
Speaker 4 (24:45):
The history, it's just so well, you know what it
is at the end of the day. And like I
think I've said it before, but it's like it's cowardice.
It's like you can look at the reality of history
and say, you know what, the people who came before
me were wrong. Fortunately they were wrong and the thing
they did hurt people, and we can be better now,
or you can make up one hundred lies that like
(25:07):
anybody with eyes and eyes that work can look at
them and say, guess what that's not James Dean. Yeah, no,
one's confused about it. Like he was never in the yearbook.
They didn't mention him when he died. I mean, like
these are this is obvious stuff, and it's like you
have to wonder, like if you're in that deep of
denial to make this up and then stand by it
(25:28):
when it's like we're looking at the thing well and even.
Speaker 2 (25:32):
Hearing just anecdotally from like Quincy when he talked about
the shooting machine still.
Speaker 4 (25:36):
Has moster rebel on it.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
And then throughout the year we've seen sort of images
pop up with you know, it being on uniforms that
were sold at Walgreens and the wrestling shorts and things
like that. It's just so clear, and we talked about
it in the podcast that until the rebel's name is gone,
that's always going to be an aspect of it. As
much as they say that there's no more Confederate or
(26:00):
Cerebel imagery. It's like twenty twenty four and still there.
Speaker 4 (26:03):
Right, so and how happy I mean, I again if
they don't ever change the name. But they're like, it's
the James Dan Rebels. Now everybody's wearing little leather jackets
and we're all greasers and we have emotional problems, like sure, sure, okay, fine,
but it's like there's no like you're saying you can't
divorce those two things, like, and they're not going to
(26:25):
commit to doing James Dean and they're not going to
get the rights to Star Wars. Maybe that should have
been our angle all along.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
Yeah, George Lucas is on board with allowing high schools.
Speaker 4 (26:36):
Yeah, the Star Wars. There is a team from Mascot
d B called the Millennium Falcons. Cool but they're just Falcons.
But they like started the school in two thousands, So
like that's sick, that's actually but that's what I feel like.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
There's such an opportunity to be cool and creative and right,
you know, I think in I can't quite remember which episode,
but you know, there's an episode where we kind of
speak to some of the local things that it could be, like,
you know, there are various there's cool birds and like
different types of butterflies that are local to the area.
There could be something really neat about it. And it's
(27:11):
just so not anything right right.
Speaker 4 (27:15):
I mean, one thing that's funny that didn't get in
the podcast, but something somewhere where we sort of started
was the fact that like Daniel Boone is a person
who is deeply discredited throughout history. His bones aren't even
in Kentucky. And it's like, so it's like, I do
think that there is almost this long.
Speaker 1 (27:33):
That was like one of the very first planning calls
that me and you had, and it.
Speaker 3 (27:38):
Was just like, oh my god, how deep are we
going here, Like we've exposed one line now we're realizingly
right Boone County is named after a guy who isn't
buried there, like.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
Who lies might be a black man in his grave.
And the one like it was just oh my god,
that was like an hour where.
Speaker 4 (27:56):
It was I bought a book.
Speaker 1 (27:58):
Further down we go.
Speaker 4 (28:00):
It's like very Daniel Boone like scaffolding of life when
you think of it that way, like this is just
the longest history of lying it's like it does feel
more lighthearted in the end, where you're like, oh, these
people are just lyars on way down, Like you got
to just say listen, we're gonna start telling the truth
(28:21):
now today. Sorry about all that weird stuff because like
it is just this interesting history where I'm like, that's
it's very fascinating.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
Okay, my last question, well whatever, you can keep talking.
But my last question, for the most part, is like,
how has this changed, if at all, your relationship with
your hometown and how you feel about it again, both
good and bad. Like there's probably people that we met
along this, you know, this process that you, as a
high school student would have been thrilled to know about,
but maybe didn't exist then. So yeah, I mean you've
(28:51):
spent you know, we've made a few trips back, so
you spent some more time there.
Speaker 4 (28:55):
Yeah, I mean, I guess I'll start with the good.
I do think that like Amber Hoffman, that group of people,
you know, the librarians, the women we met at Juneteenth
who were running for office, Like there seems to be
some whispers of hope there in a way that like
truly there was none of that growing up. Like I
can't express enough how Like when I say it's changed,
(29:18):
it has changed monumentally in my lifetime. I think that,
you know, I've spoken to a few friends who are
from small places in the South who are now in
New York or Chicago or LA or Nashville, and even
people who were like progressive but could not talk about
it in high school, who I've known for years and
(29:39):
years who are in the South again but didn't choose
Kentucky and didn't choose Florence. And so like, the thing
that we all keep kind of coming back to is like,
why why is this place worth saving? And I think
that it's always been very clear for me because I'm like, well,
there are other kids who are gonna have to go
(30:00):
through this, and like it sucked having to consistently be
like I'm rooting for this where I'm I'm competing on
behalf of this thing. It's on the outfit I have
to wear, like it's you know, that was awful. So
like it's enough. But then there's also just the conversations
with those people who are like, well, I just never
go home again. Yeah, And so like I think that
(30:22):
if the backlash to this is something where it's dangerous
to go back, or my mom has to move or
you know, just like whatever I've had to think about,
like am I okay? Never like using that airport to
get to Cincinnati and like never stopping. And I don't
want to feel that way. Like there's a lot I
(30:43):
do think there's so much hope there, Like truly the
Florence y'all's what they were able to achieve, the fact
that it's something to do the fact that there are sidewalks,
which I harp on it on a podcast, like these
are things that I think are valuable, and I think
that the history is in and so it's like there's
no loss to me. But I do feel like my
(31:05):
my only trepidation is like I don't want it to
be a place where I can never go again, even
if it's somewhere I don't go, you know, all the
time in the future. I guess just to say I
think that, like this is such a worthwhile process, like
it's worked that I'm really proud of, not just because
I think the podcast is amazing, which I do. I
(31:25):
think it's like as a product, wonderful, like we should
be very proud of, like how hard we worked and
how many amazing people we got to speak with, Like
that feels like a real privilege, but beyond just like
it being good in that way, Like I think that
I have also learned that when you are trying to
do something positive, people will just find it and find you.
(31:48):
Like the moment we met Amber Hoffman, she must have
mentioned us to a few people. Suddenly I'm getting emails
from people who are like, this is so great. I
just wanted to tell you to keep going, or you know,
I'm trying to do something similar, like this sounds really interesting.
When I posted the trailer for the podcast over the summer,
I got so many messages from people who were like,
I went to a college that was the Rebels, and
(32:09):
I hate that about it. I went to a high
school that was like this, and it makes so much
sense to me now, but I back then, you know,
I played football there, Like there is this growth that
you get to see in this, you know, excitement around it.
And then the other thing was just like getting messages
from people who were lucky enough to be at a
school that maybe didn't change from a problematic mascot, but
(32:30):
they were there when they were consolidating school, so they
got to choose their mascot and it was, you know,
the nineties, so they got to choose something cool and
they're like, oh my gosh, we're the Wave and our
colors are teal and purple and it's like in Virginia
or something, and You're like, this is like the fact
that you're so excited to share, this is what I'm
hoping for. So I think that what I learned was
like just the idea of like, I'm not the only
(32:52):
person thinking that we should do something better here, and
people who want to help you change something will find you.
So it's like, I think it's just it's worth the
risk totally. That's what I got. Rebel Spirit is a
production of Ninth Planet Audio and association with iHeart Podcasts.
Reporting and writing by me Akuila Hughes. I'm also an
(33:13):
executive producer and the host. Produced by Dan Sinker, edited
by Josie A.
Speaker 5 (33:19):
Zahm Our.
Speaker 4 (33:20):
Assistant editor is Jennifer Dean. Music composed by Charlie Sun,
Sound design and mixing by Josie A. Zahmb Our. Production
coordinator is Kyle Hinton. Our clearance coordinator is Anna Sunenshine.
Production accounting by Dill pret Sing. Additional research support from
Janis Dillard. Special thanks to Jay Becker and the whole
team at BLDG the Florence y'alls, Amber Hoffman, and Leslie Chambers.
(33:44):
Executive producers for Ninth Planet Audio are Elizabeth Baquet and
Jimmy Miller
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