The Rise and Fall and Rise of John McAvoy

He was a man born into crime. He came from a family of British hard men. Movies were made about the men of his family. He was also enraptured by the criminals he saw depicted in other crime classics. All of this combined to make him a nepo baby of crime. But John McAvoy surprised the world and himself when he forged a new identity, thanks to a rowing machine. 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Ridiculous Crime. It's a production of iHeartRadio.

Speaker 2 (00:03):
Elizabeth dud Zaron Burnett. So good to see him, a friend, Hi,
how are you?

Speaker 3 (00:07):
Oh?

Speaker 2 (00:08):
You know, I've just been sitting over here waiting to
ask you a question, and that question is simple, straightforward,
right to the point.

Speaker 4 (00:13):
Yeah, do you know what's ridiculous?

Speaker 3 (00:15):
I do?

Speaker 2 (00:15):
I do know.

Speaker 3 (00:16):
You were sitting with us in the break room here
at HQ the other day and just doing a monologue
about your favorite TV shows these days.

Speaker 2 (00:27):
I like how you put it, but yes, well.

Speaker 3 (00:29):
I mean it's like none of us could get a
word at edgewise with us, just like, all right, tell
me more pirate show. But then you were like, the
best show on television, your new favorite show and I
haven't watched it yet is Tracker on CBS. That's all
you've been talking about. So I checked it out and
I was like, what's the trivia on Tracker? And so like,

(00:54):
did you know the opening scene of each episode the
title Tracker has skyline images of the town or city
where Culture is based.

Speaker 2 (01:02):
In that episode, Culture with the Hard.

Speaker 3 (01:04):
Arc, Culture with the Hard R. The guy who plays
Culture Shaw, then the main character, Justin Hartley. He shares
two episodes with his real life wife, Oh look at them,
and his camping trailer is the iconic twenty sixteen Airstream
Pendleton twenty seven FB. So now we know what to
chip in. Do a GoFundMe for your birthday.

Speaker 2 (01:26):
I was told it was like a Rockford Files update.

Speaker 3 (01:28):
It appears to be modified slightly with the additional drawers
and counterspace where the lounge should be.

Speaker 2 (01:34):
Okay, so it's not.

Speaker 3 (01:37):
It's Scott Factory mods. They also made one hundred of
these as a limited edition to celebrate the National Park
Service Centennial.

Speaker 2 (01:45):
I like that.

Speaker 3 (01:46):
Yeah, And that model was only featured in the pilot
in second episodes and then they replaced it with a
flying cloud. So you probably already know that because you've
watched this a number of times.

Speaker 2 (01:56):
I tell you about the one.

Speaker 3 (01:58):
Did you know? Culture shaws a age at the time
of his father's death, was given it fifteen and his
brother had just turned eighteen. The date on the tombstone
was two thousand and three, and that would put Culture's
age at the beginning of the series is thirty six. Okay,
but in real life, the guy who plays Culture is
forty seven.

Speaker 2 (02:15):
Good looking out for him?

Speaker 3 (02:17):
He's a good looking forty seven. Apparently, Eric Grace took
off part of season two for personal reasons. Okay, I
don't know what that's about. You know, I hear rumors.

Speaker 2 (02:27):
I was looking for the show that's a spin off
of whatever? What's that Yellowstone? And it's it has Casey
the kid. He was like, oh, he was like it
doesn't matter. But he was like, you know, well I
mistuck the show.

Speaker 3 (02:41):
Well you watched all the seasons and then wouldn't stop
telling us some about him. So did you know? I
know you like watches. He wears an Omega Seamaster three
hundred in the first few.

Speaker 2 (02:51):
It's an attractive via were you looking at it? I did?

Speaker 3 (02:53):
Watch check it now we'll tell you. There's a goof ooh,
what's that? His GMC truck just from a half ton
to a three quarter ton heavier duty model. Between the
first and second episodes.

Speaker 2 (03:06):
We all pick up a little way to Elizabeth. You
know he trusts.

Speaker 3 (03:10):
I mean maybe he like made some money.

Speaker 2 (03:12):
And then was like a thicker truck.

Speaker 3 (03:14):
Treat yourself. I want to be able to not see
pedestrians at all. I can see the tops of their
heads at a crosswalk. I don't want to see any.

Speaker 2 (03:22):
If their adult height. Yeah, I want to.

Speaker 3 (03:24):
Run over some children and have no clue.

Speaker 2 (03:27):
So there you go.

Speaker 3 (03:29):
Tracker, your love of Tracker, that's ridiculous.

Speaker 2 (03:32):
But you're saddling me with that. That is ridiculous. It
is it is. I got something ridiculous for you.

Speaker 3 (03:39):
Yeah, go ahead.

Speaker 2 (03:40):
You know, like sometimes a person is like born into wealth, right,
Sometimes a person is born into fame, and sometimes like
maybe their family is what shapes them, because like the
whole family legacy something, you know, you have like scions
of wealth, like the Kennedy's or yeah, perhaps it's athletics,
you know, like Lebron James and and.

Speaker 3 (03:56):
Bronni political family.

Speaker 2 (03:58):
Political business, entertain men. Sometimes the family's legacy ends up,
you know, the imprimatory gets passed on, and we call
those people NEPO babies. Right, sure, but Elizabeth, what about
a child who's born into crime, a criminal?

Speaker 4 (04:13):
NEPO baby?

Speaker 2 (04:39):
This is ridiculous Crime A podcast about absurd and rageous capers.
Heis and cons it's always ninety nine percent murder free
and one hundred percent ridiculous, not rageous, Elizabeth. Now we
often tell each other these stories of criminals who make
bad choices, dumb choices, they get themselves involved in some

(05:02):
good old fashioned, ridiculous crime.

Speaker 3 (05:04):
Yeah that's basically every episode.

Speaker 2 (05:06):
Right, But today I want to tell you the story
of a crimer who didn't exactly make those same choices. Instead,
he was born into crime.

Speaker 4 (05:14):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (05:14):
His name is John McAvoy, British lad. He was born
over there in London in the early eighties. The date,
if you're curious, was September twenty sixth, nineteen eighty three.
And if you're keeping track doing the math, think that
makes him a libra. Okay, I don't know what that means.

Speaker 3 (05:29):
Well, you know when people tell me things like it's
because I'm a libra. Yeah, that's when I say, that's
when my mind shut off.

Speaker 2 (05:37):
So you stop listening. Absolutely, That's why I told you. Now,
just bliss out on the rest of this.

Speaker 3 (05:42):
I'm just going to write a birthday card to this cut.

Speaker 2 (05:44):
So anyway, John McAvoy, British lad, Southeast London. Boy, I'm
sure you know what that means. Comes from hard scrabble times.
He was a hard scrabble libra. He was raised household
of women. There was his sister, there was his mother,
There was also his five aunties and the missing man
obviously was his father. He had passed away a month
after John McAvoy was born.

Speaker 3 (06:05):
Oh tragic.

Speaker 2 (06:06):
That left his son without many male influences at home,
which can lead to teasing from other kids, you know,
which is what happened to McAvoy. But other than like
the teasing, he remembers his upbringing being fairly normal, and
as much as he was raised in a largely female family,
he did have some uncles and some older cousins around.
So I don't want to make too much of a
thing of him being mostly raised by women. That's not

(06:28):
the point, but do keep it in mind because we'll
come back to that shortly. Anyway. Like I said, his
mother worked as a florist. She strived to give John
McAvoy a fairly normal life. As he tells it quote,
she did everything she could to make sure her two
children had everything they ever needed. Right now, young McAvoy
was an active, lad, charismatic, enthusiastic boy. He was also outgoing.

(06:50):
He was outdoorsy. He liked to fish and to camp,
and you know, he liked to do boy scout activities.
So he was always very much as rough and tumble kid.
As my point, right, very physical. And then one day
his mom brings home a new man. John McAvoy was
eight years old at the time, right prime age for
a boy who's missing that male presence at home in

(07:12):
his formative years. And so when he meets this man,
this cat named Billy Tobin, well, he thinks he's the coolest.
I mean, Billy Tobin. He's this gregarious, big personality, larger
than life sort of guy. He looked good, he smelled good,
He dressed well like I'm talking looking Chris Billy Tracker,
in his dark flack, his dark shirt. He had new

(07:34):
black leather shoes on which all they were freshly shine.
This all jumped out to the boy's young eyes. I
mean basically the man looked like money, right, like your
money kid.

Speaker 3 (07:43):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (07:44):
Now, as McAvoy told the Guardian, quote, even though I
was young, I could tell this stuff he had on
was very expensive. And as he further explained to The Independent,
another news outlet over in the UK, quote, Billy was rich.
Billy had everything. He was always dressed immaculately and had money,
cars and property. I idolized him. He was the person
I wanted to be when I grew up. No oh,

(08:05):
I forgot to mention his mom's new man, Billy Tobin,
was also a bank robber, perfect, a true British hard man,
perfect right, And since he had no son to call
his own, Billy Tobin, who he liked, young John McAvoy,
you know, he must have felt nice to have this
kid looking up at him with those eyes filled with
like a child's respect and awe. Right, so he dug it,

(08:26):
and so he they bond, the two of them, They
formed this relationship, and then his mom went and married
Billy Tobin. So now the two go really close because
he's officially his stepdad and he has this now a
male figure at home to pattern himself after, to want
to be just like who he adored and admired. And okay,
you know how your nephew idolizes his dad, how he

(08:48):
wants to dress like him and one day run a
bar with him when he grows up. Well, their relationship
kind of came to mind when I was reading about McAvoy,
because he just said, like, you know, when this guy
comes into his life, it was really powerful experience. Yeah, right,
So I just kept thinking of your nephew just being
like I want to be just like him.

Speaker 3 (09:05):
Yeah, that's a I guess that's a lucky thing to have,
like this role model of you know, a cool.

Speaker 2 (09:11):
Guy that right, you both like and respect.

Speaker 3 (09:13):
Yeah and yeah, and who's good to you and total.

Speaker 2 (09:16):
And also it's like teaching the ins and outs of
life and all that. Yeh.

Speaker 3 (09:20):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (09:20):
So, as I said McAvoy born in eighty three, he
basically so he grew up in the Reagan years or
over in the UK they were the Thatcher years. And
as McAvoy told The Guardian, I grew up in the
era of Margaret Thatcher. It was all about me. I
wanted to own British telecom. I wanted to be a billionaire, right. So,
as you can hear between his natural ambition and in
the Thatcher Reagan era, in the generation me and his

(09:42):
role model being a British hard man, his course starts
to take in evident shape.

Speaker 3 (09:47):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (09:47):
He's also a smart kid. You know. He wasn't necessarily
a good student in school, but he was a reader.
So he studied the lives of great men of history
because he wanted to be like a great man one day.
So he read about Churchill and Hitler and Napoleon, you know,
and he studied how they rose and how they fell,
and how they made their names and why we still
talk about them today. So basically he was just this

(10:09):
boy studying how a man can have a lasting impact
on the world. Yeah, and again his path is starting
to take shape, right, So Elizabeth, he learns about his
own family's criminal greatness at the Brown this same point,
like apparently one month after he was born, not only
did his actual father pass away, but his uncle, his

(10:31):
dad's brother, Mickey McAvoy, was part of this heist team. Right,
and he pulls this job.

Speaker 3 (10:35):
Oh so his biological father was a bad man.

Speaker 2 (10:39):
Yeah, yes, and his uncle was like a legendary bad man.

Speaker 3 (10:43):
Oh I see.

Speaker 2 (10:44):
Yeah, he was a British hard man who took part
in the Brinx Mott heist. It's a wild story of
gang of thieves. They steal gold and diamonds and cash
from a Heathrow Airport warehouse. Yeah, and it was one
of the biggest robberies in British history. They get away
with like twenty six million pounds in loot. Now, before
you ask, yes, I did the translation for you. But

(11:05):
this was a two step.

Speaker 3 (11:06):
Because first I had exactly.

Speaker 2 (11:07):
I had to update the British the present British pound rate,
and so that would be about eighty nine million, five
hundred and sixty nine thousand, seven hundred and sixty six
British pounds, so roughly ninety million pounds. Now, if we
exchange that into US dollars, that comes out to be
in today's money, one hundred and twenty million dollars in gold, diamonds, cash.

Speaker 3 (11:30):
Right, Like I.

Speaker 2 (11:31):
Said, hell of a score. And they called it the
crime of the century in England.

Speaker 3 (11:34):
Sure they've had a bunch of this.

Speaker 2 (11:36):
They keep saying that it's kind of a thing they
throw around. So of course, you know your boys in
the Flying Squad, they're all over. It doesn't take them
long to round up the gang. By January of the
next year, the Flying Squad had arrested most of this
like heist gang, but not before they had melted down
the stolen gold, and thus most of the gold was
never recovered.

Speaker 3 (11:55):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (11:55):
So anyway, when John McVoy was just twelve years old,
he sees a movie on TV called Gold. He watches
it and it turns out to be about his uncle's
gang and all the gold they stole. He's real yeah,
and the TV movie stars this legend of British crime movies.
As McAvoy remembered it, quote, it was one of the
big moments of my childhood, Sean Bean sitting on twenty

(12:17):
six million pounds worth of gold bars and it all
being glamorized right in boom, just like that. Now his
life path is set. All the pieces have fallen into place.
I mean, look, he's like, I'm the nephew of Sean Bean.
And if this isn't enough, you have to keep in
mind he's still had Billy Toban at home and then
all his other British hard men are sociated totally and

(12:40):
they're also just all around the house. He's like who
he knows men to be, or these British hard men
and they're making the life of crime look good because
they also dress well, just like Billy, and McAvoy told
The Independent. Back in two thousand and four, the Telegraph
had published another British newspaper published in This in Death
article that outlined the history of organized crime in Britain,

(13:01):
and when he was flipping through that expose, the Telecraft
focused on five of the most legendary criminals in British history.
Three of those five were either in his family or
they were around him when he was growing up. Oh,
he was born into it right exactly, so it should
be no surprise. John McAvoy spent his late teenage years
emulating these British hard men who'd helped raise him and

(13:22):
who he looked up to. I mean, why wouldn't he
wouldn't you? Of course wouldn't I? So his child who
was basically it's like the opening monologue from like a
scorse Ace film, right, that's like his whole childhood, but
the British dudes instead of Italians in New York. Now again,
these men they're rolling right, So this is like it's
basically the first third of a Scorsese film, and everything's
going well, right, they're pulling off the jobs, right. All

(13:44):
the guys have money class. Everybody looks good, smells good,
and if they are unlucky, they're just in prison, right.
But people still speak about them with respect. So he's like,
this is the life. As McAvoy told The Independent quote,
it's amazing how your whole life can be completely warped
by the people who around you and influence you. I
looked up to these men because I had no alternative.

(14:04):
They were my role models, and I wanted to be
like them. I knew nothing different.

Speaker 3 (14:08):
That's the thing I was. One of the things I
learned when I was working in the prison is to
it was very eye opening for me in terms of
what I saw as normal versus other people's normal. Yes,
and I saw a shocking difference on a severe scale.
But then I've learned to kind of adjust that for
the everyday type things. But there I had a lot

(14:30):
of students who no one in their family growing up
ever had like a W two or had a job
or a consistent paycheck. They grandmas dealt drugs, you know, parents, aunts, uncles,
and they so that it was like so outside the realm,
just as for me, it was outside the realm of
understanding to think that, like my whole family would be

(14:52):
in a criminal enterprise. Oh and so it's like if
you're from that, in that from childhood, from birth up,
you don't know anything different, And then the rest of
the world's like, oh, what's wrong with you? Well, no
one ever showed me anything.

Speaker 2 (15:05):
These are the only choices I know, Yeah.

Speaker 3 (15:07):
Exactly, this is all I know how to navigate and
so it's I can imagine for this kid, you have
the the isolation of this being all you know, and
then the outside glamorizes oh completely. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (15:21):
And so basically at this point, you know, as he's
becoming a teenager, he decides, I too want to become
a thorn in the side of the Flying Squad. Yeah,
it sounds right one day.

Speaker 3 (15:29):
Well, and as you're growing up, all you hear is
just like how horrible the Flying Squad and like just
getting one over on them, and you're thinking, yeah, this family.

Speaker 2 (15:39):
Totally stick it to the authorities. And also as a boy,
it's like you think you're invincible and vulnerable, nothing's going
to happen to you. Exactly, Well, Elizabeth, at this point
he didn't wait to grow up and become a British
hard man. He's like, what if I was a British hard.

Speaker 3 (15:53):
Teen hard boy?

Speaker 2 (15:55):
At age fourteen, his stepfather, Billy Tobin, he brings him
into the family business. And how does he do that
is he like sit down and have a talk. No,
he just drops a duffel bag of cash on the
family's kitchen table. Inside of the double bag is two
hundred and fifty thousand pounds sterling and Tobin's like, hey, boy,
I need you to watch this cash. And when i'm
like a business associated mine comes around the house, you

(16:16):
give it to him and if you do as I ask,
I'll give you a thousand pounds. So that's his first
job this is he does as instructed and he gives
him the two hundred and fifty thousand pounds. He gets
a thousand pounds for pro polling the job. He's fourteen
years old and now he's an aspiring British hard man.

Speaker 3 (16:33):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (16:33):
Two years later, age sixteen, Macaboy pulls a full like
Tony soprano and he got himself a gun. Right. It
wasn't that money, Yeah, it wasn't any old gun. He
bought himself a sawed off shotgun. Oh right, yeah, because
that's a professional criminals tool. Yeah, like you mean business.

Speaker 3 (16:50):
Because it's like doubly illegal.

Speaker 2 (16:53):
Exactly, doubly illegal, and it's good for like firing in
a room of people. You're like, oh yeah, this is
a close up work. So when his stepdad, Tobin, right,
he catches sight of this sowd off shotgun, He's like
absolutely not. So he takes the gun away from this
sixteen year old steps On. But then he also tells
young John McAvoy, you know, I'm gonna pull you further

(17:13):
into family business. I don't want you making mistakes like this.
He's like, look nice, you're gonna do this, mate, You're
gonna be a proper hard man. So he gets his
steps On some work as a scout for robbery targets.
He's like, you're young. People won't think it's weird that
you're like on a motorbike just chilling around. So he
becomes a lookout. He's sent out to like you know,
and he's told, like, he's given instructions, right, you have

(17:33):
to memorize license plates, record the schedule for like the
cash delivery truck you're watching. Also, you're gonna be used
as a messenger in our my crime network. This go
between he does well, he doesn't ever mess up. Eventually,
Billy Tobin gets him a job, you know, like an
actual like heist team. So he's sent up to work
on some cash delivery trucks. He's like, these are what

(17:55):
we rob a boy. So by this point, John McAvoy
he's well on his way. As he told the Guaruardian quote,
I didn't really have friends my own age. From fifteen,
I was with men who were in their thirties, forties
and fifties. Now, he wasn't complaining about that. He enjoyed
his time amongst the professional thieves and British hard men.
As Macaway also told the Guardian quote, I spent as
much time as I could around these people because I

(18:16):
wanted to learn from them and I wanted to understand
how that world operated. So this is his learning opportunity,
as you said, this is what he knows and what
he can learn and get better at. Yes, So basically
he's like living inside like a throwback guy Ritchie movie, right,
I mean, and who wouldn't once again, why I would
want to do this? I mean, if you're him or me?

(18:37):
So obviously he makes his bones. He joins up as
a professional crimer with his stepdad's crew. But before we
get deeper into crime, let's take a break, okay, and
after these messages we'll get back to getting busy with
the crime.

Speaker 5 (18:50):
Nice Rebecca, Elizabeth, Yeah, we are so where were we?

Speaker 3 (19:15):
I was reading tracker recaps while listening to because I'm
just trying to catch up with you, trying to be
like I don't know the episodes as well as you do,
So ask.

Speaker 2 (19:27):
Me about like anything season one. I can tell you
whatever you're miss back and forth. Yeah, we can cover
this all right. So John Young, John mclvoy, he's taken
up in the family business of crime. At this point,
he's a teenager, sixteen, seventeen years old. He's spending all
his time around British hard men in their forties and
fifties and their late thirties. Elizabeth, have you ever spent
time with a kid where you can tell they spent

(19:48):
like a lot of time with their grandparents old expressions, Yes,
maybe even like they walk with like a shoveling gate.

Speaker 3 (19:57):
Well, I know a couple of people like that.

Speaker 4 (19:59):
Do you.

Speaker 2 (19:59):
Yeah, So that's him. But with British hard ben So
he just he sounds exactly like them. He just doesn't
have the money yet.

Speaker 3 (20:05):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (20:05):
So macaboy, he's doing this with the career criminals hanging out.
He's doing all the grunt work they ask him to do.
He's being a lookout, a bag man. He's transporting stolen
goods that sort of thing. Like, for instance, if they
needed to move like guns across the country because they
were highly illegal, they'd have John do it. He's young,
he's got plenty of time to get along stretch. You know,
the rest of them will get put away.

Speaker 3 (20:26):
It's not even a long but I mean you get
like a juvenile offense.

Speaker 2 (20:29):
Yeah, exactly, the first first strike. They're like, yeah, right.
So at this point he's basically apprenticing in a crime guild, right,
and with the hope so one day he might become
a journeyman criminal. And meanwhile he's also shaping what kind
of man he will be, like what his values are,
but the criminal and the not so criminal. Because his stepdad,
Old Billy Tobin, he taught John mclvoy how to act

(20:51):
like a man. He's like, you know, here's how you
can need to be. You want to be assertive, but
you also want to be smart. And he taught him
like also at the same time crime one oh one rules,
so like, for instance, never talk about crime inside of
a house because it might be bugs. Sure, that's stuck
with him. He also taught him only trust a few
criminals that you know, make them your crew. And also
never trust women.

Speaker 6 (21:12):
No.

Speaker 2 (21:12):
I think, as sexist as that might sound, it's more like,
never trust anyone who knows all your business, but ain't
a criminal too. You know they have something they can
they can dime you out for a reward.

Speaker 3 (21:23):
These guys aren't really like the best behaved and so yeah,
the women have leverage, right, so they know. These men
know I'm going to treat women poorly and these women
are going to need to get back at me total,
so don't give them any.

Speaker 2 (21:37):
And the stories we've covered in the past, it's been
born out that like the women have dimed out some
of these guys, like especially the British hard men in particular,
because they.

Speaker 3 (21:46):
Turn out to be a cad and you think, all right, buddy.

Speaker 2 (21:48):
Yeah, or they try to run off with their girlfriend
with the moody that you like.

Speaker 3 (21:52):
All right, yeah, let's see how this is going to
work out for you.

Speaker 2 (21:55):
And I could be wrong, it could just be old
fashioned sexism. I'm just not both exactly right anyway. Point
is his stepdad he teaches him like a code of
conduct for career criminals. For instance, he told his steps on, uh,
you don't hurt women, you don't hurt children, you don't
hurt old people, which I think we can all get behind,
at least I can get behind. I don't know about
you but physically hurting. Yeah, yeah, exactly like you. And

(22:18):
also don't really steal from them directly, yeah, indirectly, like
you know.

Speaker 3 (22:24):
That was That's something that I had noted in Oakland
changed over the years of like, yeah, it used to
be that the criminals didn't mess with old folks, and
now they like mug them and steal their.

Speaker 2 (22:35):
Cider, measy targets. I wish we could get back to that,
I know, right, I know. And also he had other
standard operating values. E t imparted to the boy, like
never show weakness.

Speaker 3 (22:43):
Right, never let him see sweat exactly.

Speaker 2 (22:48):
So he also taught him, like, you know, to despise
and detest all authority. He's like anyone with a badge,
a gun, a gabble, they are the enemy. And so
yeahs back of what we call quote. There was always
this tone of anti authority and how corrupt the system was.
Obviously I didn't realize I was absorbing all this stuff.
So the kids, no idiot though. He's a smart kid,

(23:10):
Like I said, I remember, he'd seen it firsthand with
his uncle. He knew people who chose crime did go
to prison, you know, like it happened. He knew that
was an occupational hazard. But at the same time, like
I said, he's young, he's arrogant because he thinks he's
in vulnerable and invincible.

Speaker 3 (23:25):
His family's not lying when they say the system's corrupt totally.

Speaker 2 (23:28):
So it ain't wrong, you know. So at this point,
oh I forgot. Also, like so many crimers we cover,
he was in love with the silver screen and all
the crimes he saw up the total and so he's
always thought he'd be the one to beat the odds. Like, oh,
I've seen the stories. I know how this plays out.
As mcavay told The Guardian, I think it's always in

(23:49):
your subconscious. But you think you're going to be the
one to live that Hollywood life, right, You're going to
be the one to sail off into the sunset.

Speaker 3 (23:57):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (23:57):
Yeah. Meanwhile, he's becoming a known associate of a large
number of career criminals, which puts him on the radar
of the Metro Police and the Flying Squad, And he
definitely drew enough of attention that a few police inspectors
because by the time he was eighteen years old, he
had undercover cops following him, surveilling him. No way, oh yeah,
And that made it, you know. So he was quote

(24:18):
always very surveillance aware. You would sometimes spot the same
person a couple of times. Yeah, so he's legit. Now
he's officially made it into the books. He's a real
British hard wall exactly. And also, I mean once again,
he's still hanging out with forty eight fifty year old
to a career criminals. So it's kind of fun to
babe bust him. Maybe you can like knock him off

(24:38):
this crime path if you're a cop and you're a
true believer. Yeah, And like I said, he's eighteen years old,
so of course he ends up not being the one
to beat the odds. He gets stripped up by Johnny Long.
It's his first pinch came well, actually it came rather early.
He pretty much never had a real chance at it
going straight. Because look, do you just can imagine that
moment you're eighteen years old and that's your first to

(25:00):
serious pinch. I mean, like this is your life, Elizabeth,
Like can you imagine that? No, don't answer that. It's
a trick question. It is because instead, close your eyes, Isaac,
I want you to picture it. It's evening time in
South London and you Elizabeth are behind the wheel because

(25:21):
you are a getaway driver. But not just any getaway driver.
You are young John McAboy and at the moment you're
feeling a proper bad man. You're working a job for
one of your stepdad's friends from his criminal underworld. The
planned heist is a robbery with a take home of
roughly two hundred and fifty pounds. The robbery goes well.
You and the crew are able to break in, get

(25:42):
the goods, get out. Only trouble is someone must have
managed to trip an alarm because now you're behind the wheel,
earning your money as a getaway driver, and a pair
of cops are giving chase. The sirens are not far
behind you. You yank hard on the wheel execute a
right turn at high speed. The car stays on the road.
Weren't sure the wheels could take that much action, but

(26:02):
the grip holds true to the road. The squeal of tires.
The two cop cars giving chase also managed to make
that same hard turns. You try again to lose them
with a fast left and that a quick hard right,
But from the insistent police sirens you can tell you
haven't lost them yet. You tell the crew with you.
It's time for Plan B. After you execute in another
set of journeys, you slam on the rags. The car

(26:24):
slides to a screeching stop. The doors all spring open.
You and the men inside try to make an escape
on foot. You take off runt before the cops stop
their cars and get out for the foot chase. You
toss your gun, best not to get caught with that.
You hear it land. You go skittering away under a
hedgerow where you hope, like hell the cops won't find it.
You're in South London, in a neighborhood you know well,

(26:47):
and now you're on your own. The others didn't run
off in the same direction as you. Since you're alone,
you decide it's time to strip down. Then you know,
try to blend in your Stepdad always told you to
wear shorts underneath your pants the job, so that way,
if you need to escape, you can lose your pants
and pretend you're just out for a jog. So you
do as you were taught. You yank off your pants.

(27:09):
You toss them in a trash bin and start jogging
as you hear your rough and jagged breaths warm the
night air. You eye the scene, looking for somewhere to go.
You spot a garden fence and decide to hop it.
Perhaps you'll blend in better. You continue jogging past the garden.
A few blocks later, as you scan the road, you
begin to think you just may have gotten away with it.

(27:30):
You slow down when you spy one of those red
phone booths. You yank open the door and step inside.
You place a collect call and listen as it rings.
Thank God, your friend answers. You tell him the score
and ask if he can come pick you up. You
tell him the address. He's more than happy to come
give you a lift. You thank him profusely and hang up.
When you step out of the phone booth, you see

(27:51):
that you won't need that ride from your friend after all,
because you are swarmed by a set of armed police officers.
Somehow they tracked you down. Just like that, you're arrested
the first time in your life.

Speaker 3 (28:04):
Oh's first arrest.

Speaker 2 (28:06):
After that first arrest wearing shorts. Isn't that a great
move to always have running shorts on underneath your normal outfit?

Speaker 4 (28:16):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (28:16):
Exactly so. Not only was young John McAvoy's crime career
now made fully real, so was his prison sentence. He
caught a five year stretch for possession of a firearm.
I guess they found his gun.

Speaker 3 (28:28):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (28:28):
He spends a full year just locked up in solitary confinement,
which is rough right.

Speaker 3 (28:33):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (28:33):
And apparently he kept taking off his prison uniform because
it identified him as a flight risk and you know,
if you plan to escape, that makes trouble for you.
So he was like, you know, made to wear this
giant flight risk warning. Yeah, and then he would take
it off and they're like back on the hole. So
just with dress shoes. Anyway, he never managed to escape. Instead,

(28:55):
he stayed connected to the outside world by following the
news of the day. He also did the usual prison
and thing of taking up reading. He read all sorts
of books, including interestingly Nelson Mandela's Long Walk to Freedom.
Oh right, I wonder if it's the title of the
book that drew his eye because he's dreaming of escape,
or if he was genuinely curious about Mendel.

Speaker 3 (29:14):
The point is he reading that and thinking, like the
audacity of me to try and find relation with.

Speaker 2 (29:21):
The freedom struggle of his South African brothers and sisters.

Speaker 3 (29:24):
Yes, yeah, that one other.

Speaker 2 (29:29):
Thing McAvoy did while he was locked up, was get
insanely yoked.

Speaker 3 (29:33):
Oh yeah, that's you know, I feel like that's that's
a logical thing to do.

Speaker 2 (29:39):
Totally get prison jacked, get messed with too.

Speaker 3 (29:42):
You got the time, you got the time I would
just read and then just yoked.

Speaker 2 (29:51):
If you want to squeeze my traps, well it's just.

Speaker 3 (29:53):
Like also it's it's for you know, a defenseman.

Speaker 2 (29:58):
Yeah, you're in prison with a bunch of other men
who yoked. Yeah, you don't probably want to know.

Speaker 3 (30:02):
You don't want to look all sickly and like eating
honey buns and watching daytime television.

Speaker 2 (30:08):
So when he target, when he wasn't reading, he was
always working out. So he did like thousands upon thousands
of push ups, sit ups, burpies, all sorts of body
weight exercise, taxing pretty much jel House looks maxing. He
did what he would called cell circuits. So he turned
his prison cell into like his own personal gym. Yeah,
which again I totally respect. All in all, Macavoy served

(30:30):
three years of his sentence and he got out early.
He was twenty one years old when he stepped back
out into the free world. Yeah, and obviously insanely jacked.
So what does he do now? He?

Speaker 3 (30:39):
I bet you he kind of looked like tracker, I
bet he.

Speaker 2 (30:42):
Or so you want to guess what he what this
Tracker look alike decided to do.

Speaker 3 (30:46):
With his professional bodybuilder.

Speaker 2 (30:49):
No, he goes right back to pulling jobs with his
stepdad and his network of British hardmen.

Speaker 3 (30:54):
British tracker.

Speaker 2 (30:55):
Yeah, he returned to the criminal underworld of London. He
was welcome back, like he's through a test. Sure now
he'd graduated being a new level of criminal and.

Speaker 3 (31:04):
He didn't rat anyone to take down with them. So
he's like he did the time solid.

Speaker 2 (31:09):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (31:10):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (31:10):
So at this point he starts working whatever jobs come
his way. He pulls some high he shook off the
prison feels right. He gets back to business as a crimer.
This lasts for two years before he's busted again. Oh man,
the year is two thousand and five. And earlier, in
that same day that he gets busted, McAvoy had met
with this guy Kevin Brown from the Untouchables. That's not

(31:31):
like a middle like you know bar band, middle aged
bar band, the Untouchables. It was a London crime gang,
the Untouchable.

Speaker 3 (31:39):
I like to imagine that. It was like a stage
production of the film The Untouchables, and it was the cast.

Speaker 2 (31:45):
He's like, which part did Andy Garcia play? I want that?
I want that one.

Speaker 3 (31:48):
That's me Dibbs.

Speaker 2 (31:49):
I can do that voice. So that cat Kevin Brown.
He's a friend of his stepdad, Billy Tobin, and Brown
had a big job coming up and he wanted to
bring McAvoy in on it, right, so he had to
join his crew for the big job. Is going to
be a heist, this life changing sort of heist, he promised,
And at first Macavoy's like, I just got out a
little while ago. I'm not sure. So he turns Kevin
Brown down right, and then he's like, I don't you

(32:12):
know nothing against you, Kevin, but I don't want to
be part of this heist. Kevin Brown didn't take no
for an answer. He kept after McAvoy until he finally
agreed to take part in the heist. So, the day
before the heist, McAvoy had been in Spain. He'd been
enjoying that taste of the good life. Right, he'd done
enough crime to get himself a little crime vacation. Right,

(32:35):
he's doing you know, he's doing the kind of things
you pull a crime job to do. He was down
there eating well, living well, like hanging out by the coast,
and then it's like one of those like one last
job then I'm out.

Speaker 3 (32:45):
He had that one, like young right, his favorite.

Speaker 2 (32:47):
So he gets back from Spain and Kevin Brown is
on him right to join his crew pull this epic heist.
And eventually I guess his mind was swayed by his
time in Spain, like I can dip back down.

Speaker 3 (32:57):
I just got back from Barcelona exactly.

Speaker 2 (32:59):
And I want to I need a little scratch. So
McAvoy agrees to pull this job right take part in
the heist. The target is a security van transporting a
shipment of cash. Is a pretty standard fare for these guys,
and apparently Kevin Brown knew some inside dope because he
knew about you know, how much cash was in this
money truck and what to expect and what the route was. Yeah,
so they pull like a quick like stick up move basically,

(33:21):
and they're gonna just walk away with millions of pounds.
At this point, McAvoy is twenty two years old. He's
in the car on his way about to do some
real British hard man crime and he's the driver. He's
the getaway driver for this job, okay. And while he's
driving along headed to the job, he spots an unmarked
police car headed right at him. Uh oh yeah, and
he's like, well, that's not good. And he spins around

(33:42):
or maybe looks in the rear view mirror, I don't know,
and he sees that there's another unmarked police car behind him.

Speaker 3 (33:48):
Oh, that's really not good.

Speaker 2 (33:49):
And then he looks over off to the left and
he sees a third unmarked cop car heading at him
from that direction. It's an old fashioned ambush. Everyone in
the car gets bus I guess the police also had
some inside dope about the cash transport hunt. Turns out
the police have been surveilling the crew for not weeks,
but months. They knew pretty much everything. So when this

(34:11):
crime gang, the Untouchables makes their move on the cash
truck job, the police spring their ambush. And suddenly the
Untouchables needed a new name because they all got touched
mad touchable.

Speaker 3 (34:22):
They're like, okay, from now on, where the uncrustables.

Speaker 2 (34:26):
Were tasty and we're quick. No, Macavoy didn't go down
without at least putting up a fight. He was a
getaway driver, so since he's behind the wheel when the
police spring their trap, he spots the ambush in time
to try to evade it. He punches it and the
car speeds off from the police. The car darts through
traffic they go to They taken Backstreet to South London
and the way McAvoy tells it quote, I just remember

(34:48):
this internal dialogue in my head thinking I'm not going
back to prison, and honestly I was fully prepared to
die in that moment to get away from them, right wow, Yeah,
to prison totally. He'd been chased before, so he knew
what happens when you get caught, so he ran like help,
knowing all too well. Then you know, sometimes you do
get lucky. Fortunately he did not get lucky Elizabeth. Instead,

(35:09):
he went up high on a curb at high speed,
knocked the wheel, smashed the getaway car into a lamp post.
Pretty soon the engine is sitting in the passenger compartment
of the car. Car's done. Mccawoy tries to hoof it
and he's like, I ran last time, maybe I can
get away this time. He didn't strip down this time,
but he ran. By this point, the police had put
up a helicopter, so it's now thrown around like a

(35:31):
spotlight and reporting his movements as he's trying to flee
on foot. He almost still got away with it, but
he took a wrong turn, hits a dead end in
an alley and when he spins around a backtrack there's
cops waiting for him at the other end of the alley.
So now they had their guns drawn. It was forgetting Yeah,
bad news. So McVoy at this point is certain that
they were gonna squeeze off a few and just end
it all for him, and he thought they're gonna pop me,

(35:53):
but they didn't. Instead they gave him, well, they gave
his life one hell of a metaphor. He was caught
in a dead end way out right. In the trial,
he pleads guilty to account of conspiracy to commit robbery.
He also pleads guilty to one count of possession of
firearms with an intent to commit robbery and he was
handed not one but two life sentences. Oh ouch, right,
they're serious about guns in the UK, they are. And

(36:16):
this time you know, he's also branded a double category
a prisoner, which is like their top level, like maxilium
maximum security prison. So this is now his new life.
So next, young John McAvoy, he gets sent to Bellmarsh Prison. Elizabeth,
you watch a lot, I mean a lot of British
criminal shows. I assume you know about bell Marsh Prison. Yeah,

(36:37):
so apparently from what I read, it's like a British
supermax prison. Yeah right, and only the finest fellow inmates
to spend the rest of your two life sentences with.

Speaker 3 (36:46):
Yeah, they don't play around.

Speaker 2 (36:47):
Yeah, so you get to grow old and gray with
some real nice fellas. Yes, right. And like for McAvoy,
one of his fellow prisoners was the Islamic fundamentalist Abu
Hamza al Mastri. Oh yeah right, so they must have
had a lot to talk about.

Speaker 3 (36:59):
Well you know, spot me, Yeah, they say.

Speaker 2 (37:01):
I'm not sure if you remember Abu Hamza, but he
was a real deal. He he had one eye and
no hands. That was the result of him like basically
trying to grab a landmine in Afghanistan when he was
fighting against the Soviets. And this is also how he
got his nickname Captain Hook. Now Abu Hamza. He eventually
became a cleric in London and then he gets busted
for inciting terrorism in two thousand and four, because this

(37:23):
is like during that wild West post nine eleven period, sure,
where you could get popped for just like inciting terrorism.

Speaker 3 (37:29):
Then it's two thousand and four, because wasn't the July seventh.
That was two thousand and five.

Speaker 2 (37:34):
I believe, so yeah, yeah, So in two thousand and
five is when Macway gets sent inside. So okay, yeah,
so what's Macavoy's reaction to being locked up on two
life sentences. It's a great question, Elizabeth.

Speaker 3 (37:45):
Just pump iron.

Speaker 2 (37:47):
Apparently he was still deep in what his stepdad had
taught him, so he wasn't gonna let the warden of
the prison guards break him. He was like, f authority,
He's going to be a hard case through and through.
His enemy is any form of authority. Right. He's twenty
two years.

Speaker 3 (38:00):
Old, right, so twenty two yeah, so he has like
twenty of your life sentences.

Speaker 2 (38:05):
Plenty of time ahead of him to fight Johnny Law
from inside of a supermax prison.

Speaker 3 (38:09):
Right, and it's all it's obviously been working really well
for you thus.

Speaker 2 (38:12):
Far, so totally now looking for him. He still had
plenty of criminal role models capt'n Hook, like his uncle Mickey,
who had been locked up for sixteen years at this point,
after you pulled that Brinx Mott job back in eighty three.
So his uncle Mickey told mccavay to keep his mind right,
you know, make sure he kept up with life outside,
read the papers, listen to the news on the radio,
avoid prison politics. So that would keep him out of

(38:33):
some like obvious harm ands and like oh he gets
stabbed up right. So meanwhile, McAvoy also came up with
his own plan for surviving prison. As he tells it, quote,
this is not my life. I just want to get
out of this place as quick as I can and
get my life back. So basically, he plans to bust out.

Speaker 3 (38:49):
He should have written a book.

Speaker 2 (38:50):
He'll find the perfect moment and escape from bell Marsh.

Speaker 3 (38:53):
Good, good luck.

Speaker 2 (38:55):
Anything he can pull that one off. Well, hold that thought,
and after these messages a little, we'll return to the
Slammer and see if John McAvoy can bust his way
back out to freedom. We're back, Elizabeth, Yes we are.

(39:27):
You're ready to get down in Bellmarsh prison. Let's see
if John McAvoy can get himself.

Speaker 3 (39:33):
Yeah, I mean maybe he'll surprise me.

Speaker 2 (39:35):
Yeah right, I mean, he's a man of contradictions, not really.

Speaker 3 (39:40):
So he's a man of constansor.

Speaker 2 (39:42):
Now, before he can escape from the British version of
a supermax prison, first he gets a visit from his mom,
right as he would put it, his mom. Now, this
obviously took weeks to approve because he's a double a prisoner.
He's like, you know, the worst of the hard cases.
So once she's clear to finally visit, I'm s he
drives to the prison and then she takes a bus
from inside the prison gates to where he's being held.

(40:05):
Then she's escorted into the visitation wing, where she sat
down in a small booth that separated from her incarcerated
son by like a thick sheet of bulletproof glass.

Speaker 3 (40:14):
So they're not sitting at a table together, No, like
go touch exactly.

Speaker 2 (40:19):
It's like, yeah, at and t reach out and touch
someone kind of moment, right, So McAvoy is led into
that same booth and he's on the other side of
the bulletproof glass. He takes his seat and he looks
at his mom and she's just you know, inconsolable. And
then a prison official sits in a chair behind him
and records on note paper and pen and pad everything.
He says, with the assumption that they're going to try
to speak in code. She's going to try to pass

(40:41):
a message to his stepdad via his mother.

Speaker 3 (40:43):
Yeah, of course.

Speaker 2 (40:44):
Oh and I forgot to tell you. In the next booth,
also getting a visit was Islamic fundamentalists Abu Hamza. Nice.
So Captain Hook is there speaking with his lawyer. So
that must have been extra fund for his mom to
see her boy next to Abu Hamza. Right, exactly, mother
and son they were allowed in ninety minute visit. Right,
it's the first and last time that she visited her

(41:04):
son in prison. Oh, not her idea, It was the
son's idea. Macavoy's choice. He didn't want to put his
mom through that again. He could see how hard it
was on her, and he was like, don't come back
to visit me. I'm gonna bust out.

Speaker 3 (41:15):
Also, so I'll see you soon.

Speaker 5 (41:19):
No.

Speaker 2 (41:19):
Also, by the way, for a moment, back to Abu Hamza. Right,
old Captain Hook, Why was this young semi pro British
under road crib being treated the same as the man
who's labeled a hardcore terrorists? Like why are they equivalent?

Speaker 6 (41:31):
Right?

Speaker 2 (41:31):
All he'd done, is done a couple of stick up
moves and have they done?

Speaker 3 (41:34):
True?

Speaker 2 (41:34):
That's true. Well, it turns out the Ministry of Justice
had no intention to allow him to ever escape. They
already had clocked him as an escape in a potential escapee. Right,
so they're like, that's why they put him in bell
Marsh under like the heaviest circumstances of the prison guard
and getting free of bell Marsh is going to be
pretty much a near impossible task, That's what they were thinking.

(41:56):
In fact, the prison wardens and guards, they worked extra
hard to make sure it was aifiable impossible task, which
left the other question, could McAvoy use his time behind
bars to do the unexpected.

Speaker 3 (42:07):
Thing his two lifetimes two.

Speaker 2 (42:09):
Lifetime sentences, Yeah, to maybe like rehabilitate himself, change his way,
find another way to live once he's back outside.

Speaker 3 (42:16):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (42:16):
Unfortunately, the prison warden and the guards made sure that
was also a near impossible task. Really, as McAvoy told
the Guardian, quote, you get seen as a piece of
there was never any talk about rehabilitation of moving forward
in life in a positive direction. It's just like that's
who you are, and that's what you are, and that's
how you're going to stay for the rest of your life.

(42:37):
Now that's a rough lesson for a twenty year old
wannabe fish hard man. So, in order to stay like
sane in the face of his two life sentences and
the like prescription of who he is, McAvoy begins to
focus on what he can change, which is his body.
He goes back to like when we get yoked again, right,
mud got a little soft on the outside. So he

(42:57):
decides like, I'm not gonna let prison break my spirit,
and so he starts to like, you know, fight back
against the authorities by getting super fit.

Speaker 3 (43:04):
Yeah. Well, I mean there's like the endorphins that are
released total physical activity runners high.

Speaker 2 (43:09):
I mean yeah, so he just, like the first time inside,
he starts doing his cell circuits. He does thousands upon
thousands of sit ups and push ups and burpies, and
they work to keep him sane. But he was you know,
he was also even able to mind his time in solitaire,
because once again they keep throwing him in solitaire, so
he keeps his mind intact. Yeah, And finally, after two

(43:29):
years in bell Maarsh and them not being able to
break him, he's deemed less of a flight risk, and
he gets transferred to this less severe prison, but it's
still another maximum security facility. He's just on double A.
Now it's single A. I guess, yeah, it's his place
called a full Sutton. Now he did well there, and
again he gets transferred, this time to a category B prison.
He's finally down to B. Right, so like a medium

(43:49):
security facility and Nottingham sure right, this place called Laudham Grange. Now, however,
escaping prison is still at the forefront of his mind,
and he's still he's the possible exits. He's biding his
time until a moment presents itself. As he told the
Guardian quote, I thought, the minute they give me an
opportunity in a semi open prison, I'm gone. I'll go

(44:10):
to Europe. I'll be living the lifestyle of a criminal.
That was my mindset.

Speaker 3 (44:14):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (44:15):
Right, But then one day he gets news that changes
everything for him. A friend of his, this fellow career
criminal who's his age, who had been operating in the Netherlands.
He pulled in some small time job. It's an ATM heist, right,
They're just gonna grab an ATM. Yeah, real small time.
But the cops intervene as it took him too long
to break into the ATM.

Speaker 3 (44:34):
Guys, you could do way bigger than that.

Speaker 2 (44:36):
Yeah, you really should put your your minds to it.
So there's a police chase, right, and while his friends
attempting to escape the police, you know, basically doing what
he did as a getaway driver, he crashes his car
and he dies, and the TV news shows the CCTV
footage of the crash, which McAvoy sees on the prison TV.
It's this tremendous blow to him. He could, of course

(44:57):
see himself and his friend sad tragic. So something at
this point switches up inside of McAvoy. He no longer
dreams of escaping prison. He no longer dreams of traveling
to Europe to get back into street crime. Suddenly he
longs for like finding a different kind of life. Yeah,
and he had to figure out what that even looked like,
since he's never ever seen that. Sure, So he tells

(45:19):
a quote that was the lowest I think I've ever
been in my whole life. It just made me have
this massive reality check about my life and where I
was and what I was doing. I felt lost. I
didn't know what I wanted to do and where I
wanted to go. I was trapped in this physical environment
and I needed to escape it. I needed to get
away from the prisoners. I wanted my life to be

(45:40):
something else than this. Right. So, at this point, the
year is two thousand and nine, McAvoy has his epiphany moment,
and again he just does what he does. He focuses
on his body. That becomes his tool for escape. He's
no longer satisfied with his cell circuits of set ups
and bush ups and burpies. He starts spending time in
the prison gym.

Speaker 3 (46:00):
I was hoping it'd be like the prison dance studio.

Speaker 2 (46:02):
Right, wouldn't that be a go Billy Madison.

Speaker 3 (46:04):
On it expressive dance?

Speaker 2 (46:06):
Yeah? No. Instead, one day he sees a dude working
out on this strange machine. He learns it's called a
rowing machine. So he asked the inmate, like, you know,
what the hell is this back and forth glidie thing.
And he's like, it's a rowing machine, mate. So the
inmate's like, you know, all right, now, I'm trying to
row one million meters as a fundraiser for a children's charity.
Mcvoy's like, really, huh can I do that too, and

(46:29):
so Elizabeth, this was the start of a beautiful tale
of redemption. McAvoy sits down. He starts rowing too. And
this was just a few days after he watched that
CCTV footage of his friend. Right, you know, it's fatal crash.
So he desperately needs something to take his mind off of,
like all of his bad choices, the grief he feels
for his friend, the feelings of being trapped, the ineptitude
of his choices, all of it.

Speaker 3 (46:50):
Well, it feels like the lights got turned on in
the nightclub, right, and he's seeing like, Okay, my friend
died because he couldn't get into a break into an
ATM fast exactly. And then now everyone around Europe is
watching this video of him die.

Speaker 2 (47:04):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (47:05):
And then I'm sitting here in this prison and I'm
just like building up this muscle for nothing. Yeah. It's
just it's like that cold realization when you actually see
everything around you for what it is, totally.

Speaker 2 (47:18):
I mean, the lights up in the nightclub, it's a
really apt metaphor thank you well. At this point, he
gets into like the relentless, smooth rhythm of the rowing machine. Yeah,
and he starts rowing, and he keeps at it and
that first day he rode thirty two kilometers wow, which
for the conversion rate that's about twenty miles. Yeah, that's
some serious rowing, right, and it was a shock to

(47:40):
his system, to say the least. Right, but it felt
really really good to just zone out reach this like
meditative state, and I kind of mention yeah, and then
like you know, just bliss out on the muscle burn afterwards.
As McAvoy told the Guardian, quote, I didn't know what
I was doing. I didn't know anything about technique. But
when I was on that machine, it was like I
created this portal. It took me out of prison. Everyone

(48:03):
left me alone. No one spoke to me. I was
in my own thoughts. And then it was like meditation.
It was very rhythmical. It was like the machine became
an extension of my body. And so he keeps rowing.
He goes back the next day and he rows again
the next day, the next day, and he's just rowing
and rowing some more. In that first month, he managed
to row one million meters for charity, which is about

(48:25):
six hundred and twenty one miles. Yay, right now, that
was easy enough for him. So he looked for more
difficult challengeses, like what else can I row? The next
milestone is like what if I rode the length of
the Atlantic Ocean, like east to west right just about
roughly five thousand kilometers or thirty one hundred miles. So
he does it, boom boom boom. Right, next accomplishment that

(48:46):
catches this eye of a prison guard, this cat named
Darren Davis. And Davis is so impressed by Macavoy's tenacity
and his attitude he brings him a print out of
all of the rowing records ever set on an indoor
rowing machine. Oh dang right, and Elizabeth. In a little
more than a year, McAvoy now goes and he breaks
three world records for indoor rowing machines. And that's not all.

(49:08):
He also set seven new British records. For instance, he
broke the records for the longest continuous row forty five hours.
He also continuous rowing. He just peeing on himself, I guess,
so like a surfer does a guy? I think so?
I think he is being like fed, like like a
triathlete would, just like you know, slurping food out of

(49:30):
like little baggies.

Speaker 3 (49:32):
Or whatever, just sweating out his peak.

Speaker 2 (49:35):
He also set the record for the farthest distance road
in a twenty four hour period, which was two hundred
and sixty three thousand, three hundred and ninety six meters,
which is roughly one hundred and sixty four miles.

Speaker 3 (49:47):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (49:47):
Yeah, right now, Now that he's a world record setting athlete,
macavoy starts to read up on his fellow record setters
for motivation and whatnot. He's like, this is the new
class I want to be in. Forget the British hard man.
I'm a woke last athletes.

Speaker 3 (50:00):
Has never skipped leg day. His legs like tree trunk.

Speaker 2 (50:05):
Yeah, but he's way beyond crushing walnuts. I can crush
a car bumper. What do you got? So one guy
who really stood out for him amongst the professional athletes
he started reading about is he picks up this biography
of Lance Armstrong. And this is before Lance was outed
as a long time blood doping cheater. So the important
part was how McAvoy saw himself in Lance, right, which

(50:27):
obviously is a tad ironic because you know, it's like
real recognizes real in this case is like crimers recognized crimers.
But to be fair, this is not what he focused
on in Lance his biography. Instead, what he saw was
his drive, his willingness to go for like whatever it
takes to win. As McAvoy told The Independent, quote, I
recognized many of my own qualities and characteristics, and people

(50:49):
like Lance Armstrong reading about his journey made me realize
that I didn't have to channel those personality traits into crime.
That's when I realized I want to be an athlete.
So what really changes things for him is actually twofold
rowing gives him a new way to see himself. Right
he's this record setting athlete, a high achiever, which is
always what he wanted to be. Remember, he wanted to
be like Napoleon. Right now he actually is a great

(51:12):
man on a rowing machine. And he also he'd always
just imagined that he would become a great man in crime.
He didn't never consider like I could be a world
record setting athlete.

Speaker 3 (51:20):
Yeah, there are other ways for him to do these
things totally.

Speaker 2 (51:23):
And then secondly, he finally had a positive male influence
in his life the first time ever. Lance he had
though the prison guard Darren Davis, that dude had his back.

Speaker 3 (51:32):
That's awesome.

Speaker 2 (51:33):
He supported him through his whole Redemption Arc. When McAvoy
was attempting to break an indoor rowing record, Davis would
be there. Like when he shattered the record right for
the most distance road in twenty four hours, Darren Davis
took the day off so he could be there the
whole time. You're kidding, yeah, right. And McAvoy had never
experienced anything like that in his life. And he'd never
seen that sort of selflessness because he knew life to

(51:55):
be transactional. R right. Does willingness to just be there
for someone without any reward personal gain, it blew them away.
I've never seen like no crimers do that.

Speaker 3 (52:04):
Well, you have all these guards. It's their job to
kind of dehumanize everybody there, and totally the guard is
bucking that and saying, I see your humanity and I
care celebrated totally.

Speaker 2 (52:15):
As McAvoy told The Guardian, quote, he changed my life
in prison. He wanted to help me for no other
reason other than wanting to help me. There's nothing in
it other than the purity of a human that wanted
to do something for someone else without anything in it
for themselves. You can hear like just how astounded he is.
It's like you're really doing this for nothing? What's the score,
mat Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 6 (52:36):
Now.

Speaker 2 (52:36):
McAvoy credits this the unselfish attitude of the prison guard
Darren Davis, with obviously changing his life. But as he
explained it, quote, I knew when my friend died I
would never commit a crime again, and I didn't know
where that road would have taken me. But I wouldn't
have had the life I've got today unless Darren believed
in me and then gave me the opportunities to use
the gift that he saw I had. Finally, someone wrecked

(53:00):
not only his humanity but his potential. So now he's
on a new path, and this is when freedom comes
to him right as first he gets transferred to a
new low security prison, a Category D facility and which
is true to the rehabilitative nature of what you would
hope for prisons, and then also low security European prisons
in particular. He's now allowed out of the facility to

(53:20):
help him start his new life, so he's able to
get a job in a gym, and then he starts
taking a bus from prison six days a week to
go to his new job, and he becomes a personal trainer,
and finally that opportunity gets him to actually be fully free. Right,
he doesn't have to escape. The prison grants him parole,
and he walks out a free, changed man, redeemed by

(53:42):
his willingness to change. Now, the year was twenty twelve.
McAvoy is now a thirty year old x con. His
prospects were not the best, but he had faith he
could make it work, right, and so in more than that,
he also dreamed of becoming an endurance athlete. Right, so
he decides, I want to be a triathlete like Lance
or was when he first began. So he also doesn't

(54:03):
know how to swim at this point, he's never ridden
a bike because this.

Speaker 3 (54:06):
Cat's used toel to pick things up quickly, So I
have no doubts.

Speaker 2 (54:09):
Yeah, you know how he learned to swim?

Speaker 3 (54:12):
Did he jump in the Thames? No?

Speaker 2 (54:13):
He watched YouTube videos. Wait, that's so cute, so sweet, Right,
and then he went and he bought a bike for himself,
and he taught himself how to ride.

Speaker 3 (54:22):
You can learn anything on YouTube.

Speaker 2 (54:24):
Literally, right, And he was first learning to ride, Elizabeth,
I thought the speaking You know, I came from a
biking down of Davis, so like we all rode and
like we were doing like you know, no hands at
really young ages and like surfing our bikes. So imagining
this grown man, like this thirty year old learning to
ride a bike. And he used to say that he
would go really slow downhills because he was worried he
would crash, and he ended up riding it faster going

(54:44):
uphill because then he's just pumping away. Yeah, that's how
like just just imagine that moment he's it's like all
skittish on the break, right, So he decides, I'm gonna
learn how to compete as a triathlete, and strangely enough,
his time in solitaire helped him prepare for his new
life as a triathlete, like alone, enduring this crazy right. Yeah,
So in twenty thirteen, he competes his first Ironman triathlon.

(55:08):
He only has six weeks to train for it, which
is just nuts, right, And then I have this friend.
I had this friend, rather he's sadly passed. His name
is Dave, and he used to run the La Marathon
and he wouldn't train at all. He would just decide
he wanted to go go do the marathon. He would
go sign up and just run.

Speaker 3 (55:28):
Did he run? On a regular basis.

Speaker 2 (55:30):
No, I mean he had it numerous times, Like we
used to rollerblade together. He was in shape, you know, and.

Speaker 3 (55:34):
He like he had five miles, he had trained it all.

Speaker 2 (55:39):
He just he just decided, I'm going to go run
the twenty six miles. I think it is all right. Yeah,
and then he would go do that on his own,
just and he'd competed, complete it, completed it, yes, finished it.
What he was incredible. That's I thought about him when
I was listening to this guy. So he goes he
does his first iron Man triathlon. He doesn't win, but
he does really well, right, actually got like a good

(55:59):
respect of the time. Yeah, totally, and he enjoys this
tremendous sense of accomplishment. And Elizabeth guess who was there
waiting for him at the finish line. That's right, Darren Davis,
former prison guard and his new best friend.

Speaker 3 (56:13):
Oh I love it now.

Speaker 2 (56:14):
His story of redemption and change obviously inspired him to
join the Ridiculous Crime Book Club. So there it is
dependam memoir.

Speaker 3 (56:22):
He's earned that totally.

Speaker 2 (56:23):
But he also he wrote his book after he was
out of prison. He didn't write it while he was
in prison. And like celebrating his life.

Speaker 3 (56:29):
Of crime exactly. Yeah, he's not trying to try to
like ride out the high of all the crimes.

Speaker 2 (56:36):
Yeah, total.

Speaker 3 (56:38):
So, yeah, he wants to share what he's learned and done, and.

Speaker 2 (56:41):
He's lived a hell of a life, right. And so
at this point in twenty sixteen, his memoir gets published,
and these folks, you know, because they always read memoirs,
especially from criminals, they go, you know what, this would
make a great movie. Nice, So they come to him. Right,
it looks like now his life's going to be actually
full circle. He'd always wanted to be like the criminals
he saw in movies, and now he was going to
be the criminal in the movie. But he decided he

(57:02):
didn't want to glamorize his life of crime, so he
turned down multiple film offers. He would not allow his
memoir to returned into a movie. Instead, he became this
tireless advocate for prison reform. That's what he did with
his time and his money and his energy. Wow, he
didn't want other young men to follow his former path.
So he knew that seductive call of like the life
as a career criminal. He knew how like it looks

(57:23):
so cool to young men. So he's like, I want
to help them avoid that. As he told the Guardian quote,
it's a very toxic, horrible world. Once you get in it,
it's very difficult to remove yourself from it. That's why
I can relate to a lot of these kids that
end up in prison for gang stuff, because I understand
how they can get sucked into that world. It's very
difficult for them to see anything outside of that until

(57:44):
they get to a point of growing up and maturing. Now, obviously,
he credits Darren Davis, the prison guard, for his support
for helping him to change his life and his worldview
more importantly, and now he just spends his time trying
to repay that kindness by doing the same. Meanwhile, the
British heart Men who had been his early mentors, it's
a role models they met, the sort of rough and

(58:05):
brutal ends that come for such hard men. Yeah, his
uncle Mickey, who'd been played by Sean Bean. You know,
he died in twenty twenty three. His stepdad, Billy Tobin,
was in prison the last time he saw him, and
apparently they were both in bell Marsh. And this is
back in two thousand and two. This is yeah, so
McAvoy he hears his stepdad's voice calling out to him.

(58:27):
He asked the prison guards like, wait, let me I
know this guy, Let me go talk to him. Yeah,
he gets led over to his stepdad's cell. The prison
guards like open the cell door because I guess he's
like a big man on campus. And McAvoy is able
to go and step inside his cell and he sees
his stepdad and there he is chained to this man
who's like half his age, and just that sight broke
the spell that had been cast so so long ago. Yeah,

(58:49):
as macavoy tells it, quote, it was very weird going
back to when I was a kid and when I
first saw him, and then all the years I spent
with him and all the things I was doing with him,
to then see him in that situation in prison and
the way he just looked really weak. He'd lost all
of his power. And that was the last time I
saw him. So his stepdad is still in prison to

(59:11):
this day. Whoa Yeah. Meanwhile John McVoy is free out
there changing lives for the betther, which is why he
isn't resentful of his time in prison. As he told
the Guardian, quote, I always regret what I did because
of my behavior affected other people. But I don't regret
the ten years I spent in prison because I feel
as if I've learned so much about myself. And yeah,
I would go through that journey again if I had to.

(59:33):
So wow, that's a hell of a statement that stuck
with me. Yeah, and I believe. I believe he means it,
like in the purest sense because of who he became
and how he got himself free. And I'd wanted to
tell you a positive, redemptive crime story.

Speaker 3 (59:48):
So good.

Speaker 2 (59:48):
So, Elizabeth, what's our ridiculous takeaway here?

Speaker 3 (59:52):
I think the takeaway is that you know, there are
certain things that as a society, we have a contract
to promise to members of society that you have, you know,
and it should be ideally, you know, a place to live,
an education, health care, food. We feel on most of

(01:00:14):
those things. But we do have this structure and we
do have things that are owed to us and that
we have access to. But that's sort of as a generality,
and there are a lot of people who just buy
the nature of their lives upbringing don't have access to it.
And I think that hearing his story makes me think
of in San Quentin here State prison in California, they

(01:00:38):
do have what's called the California model of how do
we make good neighbors from when people get out? And
a lot of it it's this rehabilitation, but it's how
do you direct people's energies and your talents, you know,
because that's the thing is that, like everyone is an
artist in some way, even if it's like what we
don't normally classify as artistry, but anything you're really good

(01:01:00):
at and you love and you can make yours that
there are positive versions of it. So all of the criminals,
like they have skills that just haven't had a positive
twist spressure. And if you can offer that so here
like he's going on this road and it's a rowing
machine that opens up the rest of of everything for him. Yeah,

(01:01:23):
But if they didn't have that, if it wasn't on offer,
if they were just making him sit like a bump
on a log, like a non human entity, Yeah, then
you don't have that opportunity for redemption. And so it's like,
I think even for those who aren't incarcerated, we have
to constantly think for ourselves and the people we know,

(01:01:45):
how can we redeem ourselves. How can we redirect ourselves
if you feel like you're not being productive or not
being positive, there's always a way to take your innate
abilities and put them to a positive way for you
to flirt completely. And so that is my ridiculous takeaways, Aaron,
what's yours?

Speaker 2 (01:02:03):
Well, thank you for asking, Elizabeth. Of course, I'll be
very graceful of you.

Speaker 3 (01:02:06):
I am a very nice lady.

Speaker 2 (01:02:08):
Lady host, I love it now. Mine is actually rather simple,
and it kind of inspired by your man Monty Don. Yeah, right,
So I was thinking about him when I was like
reading about this cat. I don't know why I don't.
They had no obvious connection, but it reminded me of
like criminals often see the world as a jungle where
you have to get what you can fight others. It's all,
you know, tension and struggle and transactional relationships. But there

(01:02:32):
is another way to look at that same lushness as
a garden, which with a little bit of work and
some maintenance and some upkeep and some maybe like working together,
you can enjoy the bounties in front of you as
opposed to fighting over them. Yeah, so I was like,
why don't we live in gardens instead of a.

Speaker 3 (01:02:47):
Jungle honestly, And what I love too about what Monty
Don always kind of reinforces in his gardening show is
that you can make mistakes. Yes, you can plant something
it's just not going to work there, and you can
move it or sometimes you have to scrap it and
start over. But it's okay, Like that's part of the
process exactly.

Speaker 2 (01:03:05):
It's a flow. It's it's not like a fixed thing.

Speaker 3 (01:03:08):
So we need the world according to Monty Don.

Speaker 2 (01:03:10):
Yes, change is possible. Well there you go, Elizabeth, That's
what I got for you. So why don't we have
a talk back? Quaff that down and yeah watch this,
wash this one down and make it official. Yeah, can
you favor us with one?

Speaker 4 (01:03:26):
Oh my god.

Speaker 3 (01:03:33):
Ill get.

Speaker 6 (01:03:37):
Hey, ridiculous crimes. I just listened to your selling the
Brooklyn Bridge episode, and I wanted to send you a
little hope. My almost seven year old has been known
her entire life to leave a litter of books in
her trail, in her way if you will, and she
continues to do so. I will often go in for
bedtime and she is surrounded by a wreath of books

(01:04:00):
and chapter books alike. So there's still hope.

Speaker 2 (01:04:04):
Oh, I love that you just gave us two of
the biggest grants.

Speaker 3 (01:04:08):
It's so good. That is hope. And it's like that's
a beautiful, beautiful thing, and you're you're good mama. We'll
say that right.

Speaker 2 (01:04:14):
There, completely clearly nice work on the mama ling the
economy just made a new verb. Well, Elizabeth. Uh, after
I've given you so many strange tales, I wanted to
see if I could give you a little extra hope.
And I'm glad that we have that is more hope.
Look at this for a whole.

Speaker 3 (01:04:31):
Say happy, This is wonderful. The kind of feels like
either an episode of Tracker or like maybe R. J. Decker,
your other favorite show.

Speaker 2 (01:04:42):
Yes, I just keep looking for a Rockford File's replacement,
and now they're gonna make a new Rockford Yes, which
I'm which I'm not excited. Apparently it's David Boren, that
guy played Angel.

Speaker 3 (01:04:52):
No, I don't like it. Yeah, anyway, I will not
allow it.

Speaker 2 (01:04:55):
Well as always, Uh, we.

Speaker 3 (01:04:58):
Are available for more parties.

Speaker 2 (01:05:01):
Yeah, party tricks. We can do some clowning some you know.
Obviously you can find us online ridiculous crime on social media.
That's Blueski and Instagram, And on Instagram you will find
a bunch of images from the show, so go there
and you can, you know, have your mind's eye match
up with reality if you'd like. Also, we have the

(01:05:23):
account Ridiculous Crime Pod on YouTube, so that's got some
cool little animations. You can go and listen if that
you prefer to listen on YouTube, check it out there,
or you can go to our website ridiculous Crime dot com.
Or we have merch and we have a bunch of
gifts and there's a bunch of poetry from Elizabeth. Know
they're not but yeah, obviously love your talkback, so please

(01:05:43):
go the iHeart app, download it, leave it talk back.
We'd love to hear your voice here. So if you'd
like to hear your voice here, do it. And oh, emails,
of course, emails please oh go old school people, pop hop,
type it up and send it off to Ridiculous Crime
at gmail dot com. And if you do that, please
don't much email Dia produce a d thank you for
listening and we will catch you next crime. Ridiculous Crime

(01:06:12):
is hosted by Elizabeth Dutton and Zaren Burnett, produced and
edited by the Baddest Badman and Belle Marsh, Dave Peaston
and starring Annals Rutger as Judith. Research is by the
World record Holders for facts checked in a twenty four
hour period Marissa Brown and Jabbari Davis. Our theme song
is by our in house prison band Strangers on a
Strange Prison Planet Thomas Lee and Travis Dutton. The host

(01:06:35):
wardrobe provided by Body of five hundred, guest Harry Mecup
by Sparkleshock and Mister Andre. Executive producers are former prison
psychologists Ben Boleen.

Speaker 4 (01:06:44):
And Noel Brown.

Speaker 3 (01:06:53):
QUI Say It One More Times Crime.

Speaker 1 (01:06:58):
Ridiculous Crime is a production of iHeart Radio four more Podcasts.
My Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or
wherever you listen to your favorite shows.