December 28, 2021 • 21 mins
For more than 30 years The River Cafe in London, has been the home-from-home of artists, architects, designers, actors, collectors, writers, activists, and politicians. Michael Caine, Glenn Close, JJ Abrams, Steve McQueen, Victoria and David Beckham, and Lily Allen, are just some of the people who love to call The River Cafe home.
On Ruthie's Table 4, Rogers sits down with her customers—who have become friends—to talk about food memories. Table 4 explores how food impacts every aspect of our lives. “Foods is politics, food is cultural, food is how you express love, food is about your heritage, it defines who you and who you want to be,” says Rogers.
Each week, Rogers invites her guest to reminisce about family suppers and first dates, what they cook, how they eat when performing, the restaurants they choose, and what food they seek when they need comfort. And to punctuate each episode of Table 4, guests such as Ralph Fiennes, Emily Blunt and Alfonso Cuarón, read their favourite recipe from one of the best-selling River Cafe cookbooks.
Table 4 itself, is situated near The River Cafe’s open kitchen, close to the bright pink wood-fired oven and next to the glossy yellow pass, where Ruthie oversees the restaurant. You are invited to take a seat at this intimate table and join the conversation.
For more information, recipes, and ingredients, go to https://shoptherivercafe.co.uk/
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to River Cafe Table for a production of I
Heart Radio and Adam I Studios. I'm going to read
a recipe of yours, the Summer Minister a name, and
it serves ten well might serve ten some inches anyway, finish.
All My guests all love food, but Nigella Lawcent does
(00:30):
more than love food. Apart from her extraordinary children with
John Diamond Bruno and Cosima, food is the true focus
of her life. I cannot remember the day I met
Nigella because that would be like remembering the day I
met my sister or my cousin. For Nigella is family together.
(00:53):
We've been through sadness and happiness and celebrations of both.
Nigella and I might go for months without seeing each other,
but I know for a fact that she would be
the first person on my bed and I would be
the first person on hers. In a crisis. We would
lay in each other's arms, and then we would go
in the kitchen and eat. Quite simply, she's close to
(01:17):
my heart, and quite simply I love her. I love
you so moving, Ruthie. Right, and now I'm going to
read the Summer Minister name. So two garlic cloves one
small head of celery chopped, three small red onions chopped,
(01:37):
four tablespoons olive oil, one kilo of thin asparagus, six
hundred grams of fresh peas, six hundred grams of fresh
young broad beans, four hundred and fifty grams of young
green beans trimmed and chopped. One liter of chicken stock,
half a bunch of fresh basil leaves, finely chopped, three
(02:00):
hundred mills of double cream in a saucepan for the garlic, celery,
and onions. Gently in the olive oil until soft. Divide
the asparagus, peas, broad beans, and green beans between two bowls.
Add one bowl full to the onion mixture and cook,
stirring to coat with oil for five minutes. Season Cover
(02:24):
with the chicken stock and bring to the boils. Simmer
for fifteen minutes. Add the remaining vegetables and cook for
a further ten minutes. Remove from the heat and stir
in the basil and cream. Cool to room temperature. Then
serve with parmesan and pesto. M hmm, thank you so
(02:45):
so yeah so of all the recipes, you say it
reminds you of the River Cafe. Well I feel choosing
any recipe is a source of anguish because there's so
many I could choose, and I think I remember having
this god. I don't know when it would have been
the eighties, yep, late eighties, might have even been on
(03:06):
our first menu. I think it was really one of
the first and it was like it was both like
nothing else I'd ever eatn and yet so familiar. There's
something as well, I think it says so many interesting
things about food and eating that the eating at room temperature.
I think so many people eat food too hot and
(03:27):
too cold, and room temperature which is something the Italians
really get. It allows you to taste flavors so vibrantly.
Maybe it's maybe there's something about it that reminds me
of child and not that I ate this, but the
that although it's Italian, those the sweet starchiness of the
(03:50):
peas somehow reminds me of an English summer as well.
And I think that a lot of our favorite food
does go back to, very often the food that we
did have as a child that has a memory, And
did you grow up with it as your mother cooked?
She was a good thing about your mother. My mother
was a rather fascinating but I want saying difficulties is
(04:16):
not a very compassionate way of describing it. She married
very young, she was nineteen and had her first child
at twenties, my older brother. She felt things very deeply
but didn't always express it, so would erupt quite a bit.
(04:41):
And you know, she was fantastically impatient. And I one
of the jobs we had to do, my sister Thomasina,
we used to have to make mayonnaise together and one
of us would whisk and one would pour the oil.
And whoever was whisking, you know, you weren't whisking fast enough.
And whoever was pooring, you weren't slowly. And the tension,
(05:06):
you know, So it's so difficult because I remember what
I learned, and I remember being in the kitchen with
with fondness and gratitude, and yet it would be so
unfaithful to the truth if I didn't say it was
also a source of great tension. I mean, it was frightening,
but but I think that. But I think I did
learn a lot. And she was a very spontaneous cook.
(05:28):
But imagine being nineteen and twenty and having to embrace
motherhood and domestic life and cook. Do you think she
liked cooking. Did she like it? Didn't I associate my
mother with food, and yet she had a very troubled
relationship and had eating disorders, which I didn't really I
(05:49):
think I didn't really take on board until I was
in my teens, I think, and I don't know when
it started. And it was difficult because it it was
really a repudiation of something that gave her pleasure. And
that the heartbreaking thing is, you know, she she died
when she was forty eight, and she hit pretty quickly
(06:10):
because she got diagnosed. She didn't get diagnosed. I was
told by the doctor three weeks before she died. I
didn't tell learn until two weeks because I was waiting
a bit just to get it, you know, more tests
and things um. And she said it was the first
time being terminally ill was the first time she could
(06:33):
eat with our anxiety or guilt. I mean, that's that's
and I think that. So on the one hand, you know,
I've learned everything about what cooking is from her, not
everything I've learned from you. I've learned from Annadele can't
ever learned from Claudia Rodan. But I also learned what
pat I didn't want to go down, and it wasn't
(06:55):
that one was your father? Didn't you ever cook? He
didn't occasionally lay you're on. He would make his own
breakfast breakfast, which I think is quite an old fashioned
male thing to do. That somehow they don't feel, you know,
cooking eggs is too much of a dent to their
dignity because he you know, we talk a lot about,
(07:16):
you know, the generational men in the kitchen, men coming
in the kitchen men. Very often Americans will say their
father never cooked, but did the barbecue, yes, or that
that somehow grilling need. But but even so, I think
he would only make his breakfast. Really, I don't know.
But you know, what about your brother? Did your mother
concentrate on teaching him or no, he didn't get taught,
although I did teach him how to make you know,
(07:39):
home days. She loves. But he's a wonderful eater. And
I sometimes think, you know, not everyone can be a cook,
but good eaters are are valuable. The other night you
were here with Bruno, And I've seen you here with
children and family and little kids and big kids and
and students come here and have just one pasta or whatever.
(08:00):
But was it more of a special occasion for your fidays, birthday, birthdays,
occasionally for a treat. There was a Chinese restaurant King's
Road called Choice Choice. Yeah, you know, and I remember that,
But it was I was. I found meals difficult. It's
an odd thing, or family meals. You know. I was
(08:21):
clumsy and I'd always knocked something over, and I found
myself slightly inhibited within a family group. I came into
my own later, and I think as well, I didn't
really enjoy eating. Well, I didn't enjoy meals a lot
until I had a bit more control so I could
decide what I wanted to eat. And for that reason,
(08:42):
you know, a tasting menu is my idea of hell. Also,
you went totally didn't. I didn't. It made it such
an impression on me, or more than that, it really
altered my life in so many ways. Is it after
university four? So what happened was I did the in
(09:08):
the olden days, you did an entrance exam to go
to Oxford. I thought I would like to do German
and Italian, so I thought I pretended at the interview
that I was going to go to school there, but
I didn't. Initially in the year between the gap here,
but I didn't, and I just turned up with a
(09:28):
school friend and I got a job. We got we
had a job share, so we had one woman in
Florence and we were chamber maids. And all I would
say is, if anyone ever stays in a hotel and
wonders whether people try on your clothes and put your
center on, yes we do because they you don't leave
your clothes on the floor. So you went seventeen, Now
(09:51):
I was by then, I was nineteen, I think, just
on the car, just about eighteen nineteen. I couldn't say anything.
I could say, you know, Mrs Ean has a brown
hat or something, and oh, I don't know. It was
just terrible, and I was meant to be the one
getting us somewhere and I had no idea and I
couldn't understand when they answered. So there it was Appenci
(10:13):
only run by a married couple who came from Alexo,
and they had a song called Leonardo, and they had
his mother Lana, living there, and every now and then
they go to their farm and she would be left
there and we weren't allowed in the kitchen. But the
(10:34):
minute they gone, you know, I'd be allowed in the
kitchen because she wanted a company, you know, and she
was wanted chat and so so I watched her cook
and there was something she used to do that. The
thing I remember most is that wonderful Italian with a
rospief which is almost sort of pop roasted, and I
(10:54):
would see a bit the oil, put the garlic in,
remove the garlic when it was brown, and the in
the north of Italy the idea of leaving lots of
garlic was sort of odd. A very small amount of
meat which then you know it was called roy when
you brown something, sit around that and you know rosmary
teeny bit of wine like that and sort of cook
(11:17):
it so it was not quite not fried, but not
poached really and there's something so enormously different. Again served
at room temperature, and she made prey mashed potatoes with
I always feel like saying, whenever people go Italians don't
use butter. I felt like you should have seen her
mashed potatoes. And I think, but again, when you were
(11:38):
mentioning about the beef being room temperature, I often think
that the only thing that Italians really like temperature is
ice cream very cold and pasta very heart I mean
I think that's so the otherwise, as you're saying, roastby
fish and semi frazy, and they always let my ice
(11:59):
foods stay out and I love that. But I think
that being in Italy, we didn't have an awful lot
of money to spend, and there was a bar I
went to, and you could sit at the bar and
have a campari soda and you could have a selection
of I suppose it was. I suppose they were still Crostini,
(12:22):
not blue togeter, but with you could choose different soft cheeses,
whether it was it was mozzarella burata, and I'm trying
to think which is the other one was? Now it
will come to me. There's another one. No, it was
creamier um and you had it with stripe of anchovy
on top, so wonderful, And I could keep you going,
(12:44):
do you know? That would really keep And again I
could go to a bar and have a compart. You
know that's the difference, isn't it That you considered a
bar and have a drink and something to eat. Was
going back to Oxford a rude awakening then, when you
could only go to a pub, and well I didn't
really want to. I didn't what I was going to
say about Italy is that I've been very shy, and
(13:07):
I mean not at home, more at home or in
the adult world a bit. And when I had to
speak Italian, because I was speaking a different language, I
had to be a different person. I was more valuable,
I was less shy, and so I found my voice
and that doesn't matter where you find it. I felt
that I felt both in the food and a way
(13:31):
of being and being with other people, because I think
one of the things that's quite difficult when you're adolescent
is that people on the whole. This is different. Now
I know this Facebook and Instagram, but then people knew
you just in the context of your family. And I'm
not talking about having a well known father. I'm talking
about everyone. So they know your so and so, sister,
(13:55):
Oh I know your cousin or didn't I see you there?
And that's fine. But somehow to go in to a
place and not be, not have all those connections is free,
being completely independent, earn your own living, ending for yourself.
I can imagine they loved you. I mean I can
see you in Italy. I can close my eyes and
(14:16):
see you. It was it was if as if I
had decided at a young age I wanted to be Italian,
and then I sort of proceeded and then did you
bring that food back with I did? It may be
shocked differently, but you know, it's so difficult because I
think it's hard not to love Italy without without being
romantic about it. And one shouldn't be because like any country,
(14:37):
it has its issues and it's a bit of Nevertheless,
I think one is allowed to have places which in
reality and symbolically mean a lot in your life. I
have such strong memories. I may have memories, I said,
(14:59):
you know, I don't remember when we met, because I
just remember just being in my life and this magnificent
woman who you know, combined all of the food and
energy and writing and restaurants and and love and love
for John, and you know, and I think I might
have met John the first time, maybe in the ivy,
(15:21):
and he was so funny, you know, he was just
so funny and so attractive, gorgeous, not so great and
I don't think about it he was, but you know,
he tell me what was what was it like? To know?
He was a great eater, but he just didn't like
an awful lot. He was picky and he remember the
(15:44):
first time I cooked for him? Where was that? I
think it was in my flat interest to row as
part of you. No, it wasn't really, And I think
I think we were just friends at that stage. But
I thought I would cook something and I think it
was based on a Claudia rod And recipe. There was
a sort of courgettes with saffron and some sort of
(16:04):
sauce and um, and then you made the sauce and
you put the the chops auchini around the chicken and
don't took one look at it. And he said, no
gravy for me, please, And that's I know, and you
know he I still think of him that, you know.
(16:27):
He his idea. He adored tinned potatoes. I've never seen,
I know what new potatoes and tins so their whole
little they could. Yes. And his idea of a real
treat too was tinned fruit salad with evaporated milk evapp.
I mean, but he did. He he had a sweet
(16:47):
I guess. I guess he loved talking. He loved talking
because I do really endless meals. And remember that big table.
You have a big table, And there was a yes,
and there was always people, people and eating and I
don't do children's food and non children's food. But obviously
there is certain things that I would I make that
(17:10):
were easier and people liked, and also that thing of
sometimes it would just be like an indoor picnic. You know,
you can get you know, bread, cheese, ham, salami, tomatoes,
and it just really depends. You know, there's so many
pleasures around food. And what about the kids eating where
they did they cook with you? Did you cook with them? Yes?
(17:30):
I always did because I was Yeah, so the kitchen completely.
And I remember once going to save my brother when
Bruno was very little, when I was cooking and he
put his hand. I said careful and he put his
hand himself. Yes, and I felt like the most awful person.
But actually coming to lunch was a child psychologist, I think.
(17:54):
And he went nonsense, The best way to learn about
danger is in a safe environment. Much better, he said,
he went with his hand in a saucepan. Again, I
wanted to ask you also about restaurants. Do you love
restaurants or do I love some? I love some zero
critic for yeah, it was and well I didn't do
(18:14):
lots like people do now. I didn't want a fortnight,
and I always felt I was representing the reader, so
I really wanted to in a way of voke. And
this is when I read a recipe, I'm trying to
evoke the feeling of cooking something. I wanted to evoke
the experience of being in the restaurant. Not it's not
about how chummy you are with the chefs or what
(18:37):
you know about a place. It's are you going to
have a wonderful time? And the theater of the room
and the space and the wonderful ways of a clink
of glasses. And I feel like I have less of
a less of a restaurant going life than I used to,
and that's partly. Sometimes I don't I don't want to
(18:59):
be looked at instead of and I feel like I'm
a bit on show. Not always, but sometimes it depends
on how vulnerable or otherwise I might be feeling at
any time. But I love going to places I feel
at home in and I love seeing you know, people
who work there and people that makes because it's about exchange,
(19:21):
human connection. As we've said over and over that food
is a connection to our history, to our children now,
to our lives, to our friends, it also has a comfort.
And so I guess my last question to you, as
I ask everyone, is a food is a comfort? Is
there a food that you go to if you need
that if you're hungry, not if you want to impress,
(19:41):
but if you need comfort. It's so difficult because I
feel like for me, all food is coming, that's a good.
So I do feel that you have to single. Well,
I don't know. I guess you know my mother's way
of cooking chicken, which is a bit like chicken soup,
you know, So anything chi can, even brough, is a
comfort rice in some moods, I think that generally, I
(20:05):
guess I like a lot of people, I think of
comfort food as being something sort of carbi. Yeah, I
mean bread always. But I think in different moods, all
food is a comfort, and I think it's it's just
there is such beauty in just the ingredients. And sometimes
when you've peeled an onion, the way the skin looks
(20:26):
on the shopping board, it's just wonderful. Or I think
smell as your great lemon zest and that changes the air.
So I feel it reminds you you know you're alive,
and you're taking pleasure and to be grateful for that. Well,
(20:47):
I'm grateful for you, and we're going to go and
take comfort and have some lunch in the River Cafe.
Comfort and connection and love and lovely nature. I love you, Darlie.
Thank you. This holiday season. If you can't come to
the River Cafe, the River Cafe will come to you.
Our beautiful gift boxes are full of ingredients we cook
(21:09):
with and design objects we have in our homes. River
Cafe olive oil, Tuscan chocolates, Venetian glasses of Florentine, Christmas
cake made in our pastry kitchen, and more. We ship
them everywhere. To find out more or to place your order,
visit shop the River Cafe dot co dot uk. River
(21:33):
Cafe Table for is a production of I Heart Radio
and Atomize Studios. For more podcasts from iHeart Radio, visit
the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen
to your favorite shows
Welcome to River Cafe Table for a production of I
Heart Radio and Adam I Studios. I'm going to read
a recipe of yours, the Summer Minister a name, and
it serves ten well might serve ten some inches anyway, finish.
All My guests all love food, but Nigella Lawcent does
(00:30):
more than love food. Apart from her extraordinary children with
John Diamond Bruno and Cosima, food is the true focus
of her life. I cannot remember the day I met
Nigella because that would be like remembering the day I
met my sister or my cousin. For Nigella is family together.
(00:53):
We've been through sadness and happiness and celebrations of both.
Nigella and I might go for months without seeing each other,
but I know for a fact that she would be
the first person on my bed and I would be
the first person on hers. In a crisis. We would
lay in each other's arms, and then we would go
in the kitchen and eat. Quite simply, she's close to
(01:17):
my heart, and quite simply I love her. I love
you so moving, Ruthie. Right, and now I'm going to
read the Summer Minister name. So two garlic cloves one
small head of celery chopped, three small red onions chopped,
(01:37):
four tablespoons olive oil, one kilo of thin asparagus, six
hundred grams of fresh peas, six hundred grams of fresh
young broad beans, four hundred and fifty grams of young
green beans trimmed and chopped. One liter of chicken stock,
half a bunch of fresh basil leaves, finely chopped, three
(02:00):
hundred mills of double cream in a saucepan for the garlic, celery,
and onions. Gently in the olive oil until soft. Divide
the asparagus, peas, broad beans, and green beans between two bowls.
Add one bowl full to the onion mixture and cook,
stirring to coat with oil for five minutes. Season Cover
(02:24):
with the chicken stock and bring to the boils. Simmer
for fifteen minutes. Add the remaining vegetables and cook for
a further ten minutes. Remove from the heat and stir
in the basil and cream. Cool to room temperature. Then
serve with parmesan and pesto. M hmm, thank you so
(02:45):
so yeah so of all the recipes, you say it
reminds you of the River Cafe. Well I feel choosing
any recipe is a source of anguish because there's so
many I could choose, and I think I remember having
this god. I don't know when it would have been
the eighties, yep, late eighties, might have even been on
(03:06):
our first menu. I think it was really one of
the first and it was like it was both like
nothing else I'd ever eatn and yet so familiar. There's
something as well, I think it says so many interesting
things about food and eating that the eating at room temperature.
I think so many people eat food too hot and
(03:27):
too cold, and room temperature which is something the Italians
really get. It allows you to taste flavors so vibrantly.
Maybe it's maybe there's something about it that reminds me
of child and not that I ate this, but the
that although it's Italian, those the sweet starchiness of the
(03:50):
peas somehow reminds me of an English summer as well.
And I think that a lot of our favorite food
does go back to, very often the food that we
did have as a child that has a memory, And
did you grow up with it as your mother cooked?
She was a good thing about your mother. My mother
was a rather fascinating but I want saying difficulties is
(04:16):
not a very compassionate way of describing it. She married
very young, she was nineteen and had her first child
at twenties, my older brother. She felt things very deeply
but didn't always express it, so would erupt quite a bit.
(04:41):
And you know, she was fantastically impatient. And I one
of the jobs we had to do, my sister Thomasina,
we used to have to make mayonnaise together and one
of us would whisk and one would pour the oil.
And whoever was whisking, you know, you weren't whisking fast enough.
And whoever was pooring, you weren't slowly. And the tension,
(05:06):
you know, So it's so difficult because I remember what
I learned, and I remember being in the kitchen with
with fondness and gratitude, and yet it would be so
unfaithful to the truth if I didn't say it was
also a source of great tension. I mean, it was frightening,
but but I think that. But I think I did
learn a lot. And she was a very spontaneous cook.
(05:28):
But imagine being nineteen and twenty and having to embrace
motherhood and domestic life and cook. Do you think she
liked cooking. Did she like it? Didn't I associate my
mother with food, and yet she had a very troubled
relationship and had eating disorders, which I didn't really I
(05:49):
think I didn't really take on board until I was
in my teens, I think, and I don't know when
it started. And it was difficult because it it was
really a repudiation of something that gave her pleasure. And
that the heartbreaking thing is, you know, she she died
when she was forty eight, and she hit pretty quickly
(06:10):
because she got diagnosed. She didn't get diagnosed. I was
told by the doctor three weeks before she died. I
didn't tell learn until two weeks because I was waiting
a bit just to get it, you know, more tests
and things um. And she said it was the first
time being terminally ill was the first time she could
(06:33):
eat with our anxiety or guilt. I mean, that's that's
and I think that. So on the one hand, you know,
I've learned everything about what cooking is from her, not
everything I've learned from you. I've learned from Annadele can't
ever learned from Claudia Rodan. But I also learned what
pat I didn't want to go down, and it wasn't
(06:55):
that one was your father? Didn't you ever cook? He
didn't occasionally lay you're on. He would make his own
breakfast breakfast, which I think is quite an old fashioned
male thing to do. That somehow they don't feel, you know,
cooking eggs is too much of a dent to their
dignity because he you know, we talk a lot about,
(07:16):
you know, the generational men in the kitchen, men coming
in the kitchen men. Very often Americans will say their
father never cooked, but did the barbecue, yes, or that
that somehow grilling need. But but even so, I think
he would only make his breakfast. Really, I don't know.
But you know, what about your brother? Did your mother
concentrate on teaching him or no, he didn't get taught,
although I did teach him how to make you know,
(07:39):
home days. She loves. But he's a wonderful eater. And
I sometimes think, you know, not everyone can be a cook,
but good eaters are are valuable. The other night you
were here with Bruno, And I've seen you here with
children and family and little kids and big kids and
and students come here and have just one pasta or whatever.
(08:00):
But was it more of a special occasion for your fidays, birthday, birthdays,
occasionally for a treat. There was a Chinese restaurant King's
Road called Choice Choice. Yeah, you know, and I remember that,
But it was I was. I found meals difficult. It's
an odd thing, or family meals. You know. I was
(08:21):
clumsy and I'd always knocked something over, and I found
myself slightly inhibited within a family group. I came into
my own later, and I think as well, I didn't
really enjoy eating. Well, I didn't enjoy meals a lot
until I had a bit more control so I could
decide what I wanted to eat. And for that reason,
(08:42):
you know, a tasting menu is my idea of hell. Also,
you went totally didn't. I didn't. It made it such
an impression on me, or more than that, it really
altered my life in so many ways. Is it after
university four? So what happened was I did the in
(09:08):
the olden days, you did an entrance exam to go
to Oxford. I thought I would like to do German
and Italian, so I thought I pretended at the interview
that I was going to go to school there, but
I didn't. Initially in the year between the gap here,
but I didn't, and I just turned up with a
(09:28):
school friend and I got a job. We got we
had a job share, so we had one woman in
Florence and we were chamber maids. And all I would
say is, if anyone ever stays in a hotel and
wonders whether people try on your clothes and put your
center on, yes we do because they you don't leave
your clothes on the floor. So you went seventeen, Now
(09:51):
I was by then, I was nineteen, I think, just
on the car, just about eighteen nineteen. I couldn't say anything.
I could say, you know, Mrs Ean has a brown
hat or something, and oh, I don't know. It was
just terrible, and I was meant to be the one
getting us somewhere and I had no idea and I
couldn't understand when they answered. So there it was Appenci
(10:13):
only run by a married couple who came from Alexo,
and they had a song called Leonardo, and they had
his mother Lana, living there, and every now and then
they go to their farm and she would be left
there and we weren't allowed in the kitchen. But the
(10:34):
minute they gone, you know, I'd be allowed in the
kitchen because she wanted a company, you know, and she
was wanted chat and so so I watched her cook
and there was something she used to do that. The
thing I remember most is that wonderful Italian with a
rospief which is almost sort of pop roasted, and I
(10:54):
would see a bit the oil, put the garlic in,
remove the garlic when it was brown, and the in
the north of Italy the idea of leaving lots of
garlic was sort of odd. A very small amount of
meat which then you know it was called roy when
you brown something, sit around that and you know rosmary
teeny bit of wine like that and sort of cook
(11:17):
it so it was not quite not fried, but not
poached really and there's something so enormously different. Again served
at room temperature, and she made prey mashed potatoes with
I always feel like saying, whenever people go Italians don't
use butter. I felt like you should have seen her
mashed potatoes. And I think, but again, when you were
(11:38):
mentioning about the beef being room temperature, I often think
that the only thing that Italians really like temperature is
ice cream very cold and pasta very heart I mean
I think that's so the otherwise, as you're saying, roastby
fish and semi frazy, and they always let my ice
(11:59):
foods stay out and I love that. But I think
that being in Italy, we didn't have an awful lot
of money to spend, and there was a bar I
went to, and you could sit at the bar and
have a campari soda and you could have a selection
of I suppose it was. I suppose they were still Crostini,
(12:22):
not blue togeter, but with you could choose different soft cheeses,
whether it was it was mozzarella burata, and I'm trying
to think which is the other one was? Now it
will come to me. There's another one. No, it was
creamier um and you had it with stripe of anchovy
on top, so wonderful, And I could keep you going,
(12:44):
do you know? That would really keep And again I
could go to a bar and have a compart. You
know that's the difference, isn't it That you considered a
bar and have a drink and something to eat. Was
going back to Oxford a rude awakening then, when you
could only go to a pub, and well I didn't
really want to. I didn't what I was going to
say about Italy is that I've been very shy, and
(13:07):
I mean not at home, more at home or in
the adult world a bit. And when I had to
speak Italian, because I was speaking a different language, I
had to be a different person. I was more valuable,
I was less shy, and so I found my voice
and that doesn't matter where you find it. I felt
that I felt both in the food and a way
(13:31):
of being and being with other people, because I think
one of the things that's quite difficult when you're adolescent
is that people on the whole. This is different. Now
I know this Facebook and Instagram, but then people knew
you just in the context of your family. And I'm
not talking about having a well known father. I'm talking
about everyone. So they know your so and so, sister,
(13:55):
Oh I know your cousin or didn't I see you there?
And that's fine. But somehow to go in to a
place and not be, not have all those connections is free,
being completely independent, earn your own living, ending for yourself.
I can imagine they loved you. I mean I can
see you in Italy. I can close my eyes and
(14:16):
see you. It was it was if as if I
had decided at a young age I wanted to be Italian,
and then I sort of proceeded and then did you
bring that food back with I did? It may be
shocked differently, but you know, it's so difficult because I
think it's hard not to love Italy without without being
romantic about it. And one shouldn't be because like any country,
(14:37):
it has its issues and it's a bit of Nevertheless,
I think one is allowed to have places which in
reality and symbolically mean a lot in your life. I
have such strong memories. I may have memories, I said,
(14:59):
you know, I don't remember when we met, because I
just remember just being in my life and this magnificent
woman who you know, combined all of the food and
energy and writing and restaurants and and love and love
for John, and you know, and I think I might
have met John the first time, maybe in the ivy,
(15:21):
and he was so funny, you know, he was just
so funny and so attractive, gorgeous, not so great and
I don't think about it he was, but you know,
he tell me what was what was it like? To know?
He was a great eater, but he just didn't like
an awful lot. He was picky and he remember the
(15:44):
first time I cooked for him? Where was that? I
think it was in my flat interest to row as
part of you. No, it wasn't really, And I think
I think we were just friends at that stage. But
I thought I would cook something and I think it
was based on a Claudia rod And recipe. There was
a sort of courgettes with saffron and some sort of
(16:04):
sauce and um, and then you made the sauce and
you put the the chops auchini around the chicken and
don't took one look at it. And he said, no
gravy for me, please, And that's I know, and you
know he I still think of him that, you know.
(16:27):
He his idea. He adored tinned potatoes. I've never seen,
I know what new potatoes and tins so their whole
little they could. Yes. And his idea of a real
treat too was tinned fruit salad with evaporated milk evapp.
I mean, but he did. He he had a sweet
(16:47):
I guess. I guess he loved talking. He loved talking
because I do really endless meals. And remember that big table.
You have a big table, And there was a yes,
and there was always people, people and eating and I
don't do children's food and non children's food. But obviously
there is certain things that I would I make that
(17:10):
were easier and people liked, and also that thing of
sometimes it would just be like an indoor picnic. You know,
you can get you know, bread, cheese, ham, salami, tomatoes,
and it just really depends. You know, there's so many
pleasures around food. And what about the kids eating where
they did they cook with you? Did you cook with them? Yes?
(17:30):
I always did because I was Yeah, so the kitchen completely.
And I remember once going to save my brother when
Bruno was very little, when I was cooking and he
put his hand. I said careful and he put his
hand himself. Yes, and I felt like the most awful person.
But actually coming to lunch was a child psychologist, I think.
(17:54):
And he went nonsense, The best way to learn about
danger is in a safe environment. Much better, he said,
he went with his hand in a saucepan. Again, I
wanted to ask you also about restaurants. Do you love
restaurants or do I love some? I love some zero
critic for yeah, it was and well I didn't do
(18:14):
lots like people do now. I didn't want a fortnight,
and I always felt I was representing the reader, so
I really wanted to in a way of voke. And
this is when I read a recipe, I'm trying to
evoke the feeling of cooking something. I wanted to evoke
the experience of being in the restaurant. Not it's not
about how chummy you are with the chefs or what
(18:37):
you know about a place. It's are you going to
have a wonderful time? And the theater of the room
and the space and the wonderful ways of a clink
of glasses. And I feel like I have less of
a less of a restaurant going life than I used to,
and that's partly. Sometimes I don't I don't want to
(18:59):
be looked at instead of and I feel like I'm
a bit on show. Not always, but sometimes it depends
on how vulnerable or otherwise I might be feeling at
any time. But I love going to places I feel
at home in and I love seeing you know, people
who work there and people that makes because it's about exchange,
(19:21):
human connection. As we've said over and over that food
is a connection to our history, to our children now,
to our lives, to our friends, it also has a comfort.
And so I guess my last question to you, as
I ask everyone, is a food is a comfort? Is
there a food that you go to if you need
that if you're hungry, not if you want to impress,
(19:41):
but if you need comfort. It's so difficult because I
feel like for me, all food is coming, that's a good.
So I do feel that you have to single. Well,
I don't know. I guess you know my mother's way
of cooking chicken, which is a bit like chicken soup,
you know, So anything chi can, even brough, is a
comfort rice in some moods, I think that generally, I
(20:05):
guess I like a lot of people, I think of
comfort food as being something sort of carbi. Yeah, I
mean bread always. But I think in different moods, all
food is a comfort, and I think it's it's just
there is such beauty in just the ingredients. And sometimes
when you've peeled an onion, the way the skin looks
(20:26):
on the shopping board, it's just wonderful. Or I think
smell as your great lemon zest and that changes the air.
So I feel it reminds you you know you're alive,
and you're taking pleasure and to be grateful for that. Well,
(20:47):
I'm grateful for you, and we're going to go and
take comfort and have some lunch in the River Cafe.
Comfort and connection and love and lovely nature. I love you, Darlie.
Thank you. This holiday season. If you can't come to
the River Cafe, the River Cafe will come to you.
Our beautiful gift boxes are full of ingredients we cook
(21:09):
with and design objects we have in our homes. River
Cafe olive oil, Tuscan chocolates, Venetian glasses of Florentine, Christmas
cake made in our pastry kitchen, and more. We ship
them everywhere. To find out more or to place your order,
visit shop the River Cafe dot co dot uk. River
(21:33):
Cafe Table for is a production of I Heart Radio
and Atomize Studios. For more podcasts from iHeart Radio, visit
the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen
to your favorite shows
Host
Ruth Rogers
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