January 19, 2026 • 36 mins
In this special live episode of Sacred Lessons, host Mike de la Rocha facilitates a powerful panel discussion titled “Sacred Lessons: Exploring Men’s Healing” at the launch of The Indigenous House, a visionary lifestyle brand and media platform rooted in Indigenous cultures, creativity, and community. Joined by DJ Emcee One, Eric Michael Hernandez, and Thosh Collins, Mike guides a deep, honest conversation on what it means to redefine manhood in a moment when our communities are calling for healing. Together, they reflect on where their earliest lessons of masculinity came from, the tensions between inherited expectations and lived truth, and the courage it takes to choose vulnerability, presence, and care.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
What are the cycles fathers passed down that sons they're
left to yield. What if being a man was about
holding it all together? I've and learning how to let go.
This is a space where men speak troops to find
the power to heal and transform. I'm Mike Dela Rocha.
Welcome to Sacred Lessons. What you're about to hear didn't
(00:23):
start out as a podcast episode. It started out as
a sacred circle. This conversation was recorded live at the
launch of the Indigenous House, a visionary space rooted in
Indigenous culture, creativity and community. What unfolded wasn't rehearsed, it
was felt. Welcome to Sacred Lessons. I'm Mike Dela Rocha.
(00:43):
In this special episode, you'll hear a powerful, honest conversation
with dj mc one, Eric, Michael Hernandez, and Tosh Collins
as we explored men's healing, where our earliest lessons of
manhood came from, how those lessons have shaped us, and
what it takes to choose vulnerability, presence and care in
(01:04):
a world that often tells man to do the opposite.
This is not a conversation about having it all figured out.
It's about telling the truth and community about remembering that
healing doesn't happen alone. Wherever you're listening from, we invite
you into our sacred circle. All right, how's everybody doing?
(01:27):
This is a big celebration. I first just want to humbly,
humbly say thank you to Crystal and Michael and Colin Patrick,
all the team that made this happen. Also the serving
staff that's in the back, the hotel workers, all of this.
All these folks were making this happen. So I was
thinking of how to start this panel, and I was like, well, well,
(01:49):
do I want to come in through a company angle
or an organizer angle? And I thought about it, and
I went back and I prayed, and I want to
come to you as a father and as a son
and as a husband. Ten years ago, I unexpectedly lost
my father. He went in for a back surgery and
he never came out. And my father was the most
(02:10):
important man in my life. And I had to deal
with all these issues of grief and loss. And I
start to really explore, like why did he die at
the age of sixty six, and why was it so
hard for him to say, Miho, I love you, or
why was it so hard for him to say, I
love you and I need help. I started to unpacking.
(02:35):
I realized the same conditions and behaviors that led to
my dad to pass, I had inherited myself, not just
from my family, but also from the society that we
live in. Three months ago, I came out with a
book called Sacred Lessons, Teaching my Father how to Love,
and I've been blessed in honor to travel the country.
(02:55):
In the last three and a half months, I've gone
to seven states, twenty five cities, and spoken to over
six thousand people, predominantly men. And I will share two things.
One is, men of all ages, all identities are holding
an immense amount of pain, immense amount of grief and
(03:17):
feeling like we're alone and don't know how and who
to go to. But the second thing, which is why
I'm so grateful to be at the Indigenous House, is
the other story that's not being told, is the story
of men that are really trying to be better people,
really going to therapy, really getting in touch with the
cultural practices, and trying to remember who we are as
(03:39):
a people. So this conversation is called Sacred Lessons, Exploring
Men's healing and it's a start in an ongoing conversation.
But I'm so honored to be joined up here by
three incredible people. DJMC won are in gaining the head.
You know the warning that I'm going to introduce all
three and all three will come up with the same time,
(04:01):
because we've got to have music introduce these incredible people,
incredible men. So first dj MC one, who really is
at the forefront of using music as a way to
center culture, community and connection. When I think about Indigenous
sounds and music, I think about him. Eric Michael Hernandez,
(04:23):
an incredible person who's bringing the hoop dance back, who
has this incredible film if you haven't seen, called Courage,
that is really his life story, but it's actually all
of our story about how the medicine we need is
actually in our culture and in our DNA, and if
we take the courage to remember that, we'll be one again.
(04:44):
And last, Gosh Collins, where is he my brother? We
got to break some bear root in the back and
talk about our ancestors and our cultures. Not only is
he an author of an incredible book, but he's literally
(05:05):
at the forefront of man's healing and Indian country when you
think about how do we invite people in rather than
calling people out? Is through Thosh and so many people.
So if you can please give a big round of applause. Well,
first off, thank you so much for being up here,
for the work that you do. I want to thank
your ancestors but also your partners for allowing you to
(05:27):
be here. In your families, we oftentimes travel like myself,
and someone's at the home taking care of the kids.
So just thank you. I want to just start first question.
We can go down the line, maybe Thosh will go
like this, but so much of masculinity, manhood is defined
by you know, what we provide for the family, how
(05:48):
we protect the family. But our worth is defined really
by our values, by our work. Can you share what
was you know, one of the first ways that you
learned of like what it means to be a man.
It was an experience or story or something.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
Yeah, well, scoop, gosh.
Speaker 3 (06:06):
Everyone.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
Good to be here, really honored to be up here,
to be sitting alongside these gentlemen here, and to be
sitting with Mike and in front of you all. And
I just want to acknowledge each and every one of
you and grateful that you're here today and I'm looking
forward to this conversation and yeah, great, great, great conversation.
Speaker 3 (06:24):
To you know, open this up with.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
And really I think back to my history and being
raised on the reservation where I was. Really it was
really your privilege to be a part of a generation,
my dad and his generation, who were revitalizing a lot
of things in the community. And one of our ceremonies
is was called for a men's circle, and in that
(06:47):
circle there we learned about fasting, and there was lots
of other important tasks that we had to do to
play our role within the ceremony and things that you know,
sort of are kind of popular today, cold under and
such things that our people have been doing for a
long time. And yeah, that's what a part of that.
And you know, they used to tell us, they says
that they would make us get in there as you know,
(07:08):
as young boys, eight nine, ten, it'd be freezing cold
and we'd come out and they'd say that this is this, uh,
this is to to to increase your grit. And I
used to think it was very you know, something I
had to do with my physical self here and there.
Speaker 3 (07:22):
But as I get older, then I realize.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
I see that they're talking about your your grit to
overcome adversity. But through that whole process, through through you know,
this men's circles and gathering, and throughout my twenty something
years of traveling native country, it's it's it's it's very
clear that that indigenous masculinity is it is rooted in reciprocity,
It's it's rooted in protectorship, it's rooted in understanding that
(07:46):
we have a very sacred role within this this greater
you know, web of life here, that that our role
within that is we are one one half of providing life,
and that we have a sacred responsibility in that. And
part of are ontological male identity is understanding that self actualization.
He's understanding his spiritual purpose and his role that as
(08:07):
he travels through this life here, there's a path here
that is that welcomes him to be a part of
that and that he he his his role is is
is also an accessory to to the other important roles
that are outside of his domains, such as you know,
the women are our two spirit relatives, children, elderly people.
And I think part of that that that male identity
(08:29):
under is understanding that his role, his role is dependent
on them and they are dependent on him and he
and with respect to to their role that he he
benefits from allowing them to play their role and creating
a safe space for that role as well. So I
think that these are real critical things. And you know,
one of the biggest discernments between us and Western patriarchy
(08:50):
is that Native Native masculine identity isn't it's not about
dominion right over land and women. It's it's it's one
that's in survey, that's understanding reciprocity, and so it's a
it's a sacred role that the man must have understanding
this first division that he has, but also understanding the
(09:10):
steps that he has to take in order to fulfill
that vision, which is his place is in community. It's
it's on the land, it's hands on, it's it's intellect,
it's it's spiritual maturity, and on all various aspects. So
I think, you know, from my experience on the res
and traveling Native country, not just from my own community,
but traveling Native country, those are the things that you know,
I've arrived at over time to understand and see that.
(09:32):
And also you know, I learned a lot about my
masculinity from watching my mother, you know, watching you know,
even my how what my wife expects of me, what
my two daughters expected me. Those things that helps me
to to to formulate. Oh okay, I learned about being
My masculine identity is taught not to me just by
other men displaying it, but by by the women in
(09:53):
my life as well, or what the two spirit community
also asks of us as well, and that teaches us.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
So yeah, thank you.
Speaker 4 (10:10):
I gotta follow after thas on how to be a man.
Speaker 3 (10:16):
I'm just kidding.
Speaker 4 (10:17):
My name is Eric hernandezm a member of the Lumbee
tribe from North Carolina and very honored to be here.
Growing up in a broken home, you know, my dad
kind of not being around too often, I felt like
I kind of had to redefine what what I thought
it meant to be a man. Growing up as the
youngest of three boys as well, I watched my two
(10:39):
older brothers really follow in my dad's footsteps incredible athletes.
I didn't have too much success in sports. I found
success and expression through dance, and I think that the
lane that I've found that has allowed me to have
an impact on our community is showing the strength of
vulnerability as a man, showing the strength of expression, which
(11:02):
I think is a big thing that men deal with,
you know, And that's where I've found my most strength
is just finding the courage to share my authentic truths,
not trying to be nobody else. You know, I'm not
trying to be more manly than I think I really am.
I'm just trying to be me. All of my power
that I can carry in this world is through me,
(11:25):
tapping into me, and I want to be that for
my children, my future children. I'm honored to be up
here with these incredible men who have families and strong
women by their side, and I strive to be you know,
just like you guys.
Speaker 3 (11:40):
Very inspired by these men.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
I'm sitting here.
Speaker 5 (11:42):
With Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, clap it up. Oh I
gotta follow all y'all. Man, I'm bringing the chubby over here.
It's okay, it's all right. I'm gonna get my work
out in soon enough.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
Don't worry. Don't you worry. I'm catching up.
Speaker 5 (11:58):
But as far as the man in my life that
you're asking about, was like similar to what you're saying,
the man was gone, he was missing, so my mom
was thirteen pregnant.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
I went to eighth grade twice. First time I went
with her to alternative school.
Speaker 5 (12:12):
Second time, I was an eighth grader, so men was missing,
So the idea of masculinity and how to form that.
When you say who taught you to be a man,
I'm like, I'm still trying to learn. I'm still in
this game as a student, so I'm trying to figure
it out. And like what Thosh was saying is accurate.
I got most of my masculinity from my grandma. So
my grandma was the one who raised me up to
(12:33):
figure how to be the man she wanted me to be.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
That might not be.
Speaker 5 (12:37):
The what you would think is when you thought she
said that, I was like, oh, dang, that's exactly like
I got mine from the void. And then men that
did come around, they were untrustworthy, maybe harmful, and so
I grew up not really really relating well to men.
I could get along better with women simply because that's
(12:58):
who I was around and felt more comfort with, and
men could potentially be dangerous in my history as growing up,
so I was always a little guarded with men and uh,
but I was thankful that my Grandma was the one
to be able to tell me what she wanted out
of a man, and then I felt like that that helped.
It wasn't until high school that I get in on
these relationships and then I get the fear of loss,
(13:20):
and that's when the toxicity comes out.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
And I was like, oh, well, if.
Speaker 5 (13:23):
I lose this, if I lose this girl, see the
programming of possession and the programming of objectifying, and now unlocked,
all this high scarcity and all those toxicities come out
and go, oh no, I don't want to be one
of those men that I didn't want to get. Grandma
didn't want me to be to begin with. So the
short answer is, my Grandma's the one who helped me
(13:46):
learn how to be a man, and I'm still learning.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
Thank you. Let's let's stay with this this, let's tease
this out. And I was sharing earlier we have a script,
but spirits will take this where needs to go. So
you know what I really find profound is all three
of you were talking about how you were learning from
(14:11):
the women in your life. Right, some of us had
fathers or father figures and some of us didn't. But ultimately,
this issue of gender is an issue of power and control,
but also Adrian Murray Brown says that we're living in
someone's imagination. Like somebody thought it was okay for men
to dominate the land, the people, the sky, everything else.
(14:32):
Said in enough times where it became policy and it
became truth. From your guys experiences, I guess we're going
to go the same way in this time. Like you know, gender,
like race is a construct, right, We're talking about energy
and we both encompass all these energies when we think
about redefining masculinity in manhood, how do you take that?
(14:53):
What is what should be into like how you're trying
to be a better person that shows up at as
a man.
Speaker 2 (15:02):
I always with any sort of endeavor I think in
contemporary times, coming from indigenous lens, indigenous standpoint, I always
take into account the historic, the historic practice, indigenous ways
of knowing and being. There's that, there's also my lived
experience as well, and there's also sometimes I take into
account what I like science and data, so I look
at that as well, and I feel like navigating this
(15:26):
world we we learned to we learned to find out,
you know what, what what is working for me here?
Speaker 3 (15:33):
What what you.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
Know, reassessing situations and how we carry ourselves in community.
So for me, my my basis, my foundation is always
what is the the the hemadug of the autumn charge,
what is the way of life of men? And how
is he supposed to carry himself and etiquette in community?
And since things are shifting in this day and age there,
how does he adapt and navigate. I'm always kind of
(15:56):
going back and forth with myself because where I come
from it's mal led, It really is mal led. But
there once again, I also I also say that it's
a slippery slope with getting in certain uh sort of
trying to carry out some original practices, because now it's
it's conflated oftentimes with the toxicity of of of other
(16:16):
types of patriarchy. So it's we have to almost reassess.
We have to reassess about not what did they do
back then, but what am I going to do now?
How am I going to act now? How am I
going to respond to the world now knowing what I
know with the changing of society, with the changing of
traditional gender norms, and and really I think that it
(16:37):
also comes into you know, from my lived experience, like
what you said you said that it's it's energies.
Speaker 3 (16:41):
Human beings.
Speaker 1 (16:42):
We are.
Speaker 3 (16:43):
We are energetic beings.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
We are we are a lot more malleable and adaptable
than the social contract as constructs allow us to think.
We are very adaptable, malleable, and and so that's the
beauty of us as human beings is our nervous system
changes and adapts. And you when you peel away our heart,
when you peel away you know our our mind here,
(17:05):
and you peel away all these things, and you look
at us as as human beings. We are conscious entities,
we are spirit consciousness, and we are connected to so
much more. This is just a human experience we are
having here. But this human experience is also very maluable.
So I think that how I navigate that is first
and foremost see us. It's looking at the traditional roles
in which was expected to me in etiquette, and how
(17:26):
I act in community. And if there's some if there's
some ways where these cultural ways no longer work because
of the grief and the trauma and the infiltration of
Western patriarchy, then I shift, I pivot, and I use.
Speaker 3 (17:38):
My own discretion.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
But again, using your discretion, I believe requires a spiritual, physical, intellectual,
emotional wellness, and being able to discern and and and
consult with everyone, all parties in the group. I think
that that's how I have always kind of gone about
these things in my community.
Speaker 4 (17:58):
Yeah, I just want to find the best balance in
life to be able to. I want to be as
successful as I can be. I want to be as
strong as I can be. I want to dress as
well as I can dress. I want to make as
much money as I can make, and at the same time,
I want to be the most loyal man to his
his woman. I want to be the best father I
(18:19):
can be. I feel like I grew up seeing those
worlds separated, seeing men who have everything, have all the success,
but they're out doing who knows what or or the
guy is super loyal to his you know wife, he's
got all those kids, but you know what's he got on?
Speaker 3 (18:36):
What's what's what's he doing?
Speaker 4 (18:38):
Like you know, you know, so I would I want
to find that that blend. I want to I want
to break those stereotypes and and just be that man
who and and and be an example to our next generation.
I I want to be the guy that I always
wanted to see I always saw my dad my hero. However,
(19:02):
you know, he wasn't the best man to my mom.
And I'm like, dang, Imagine my dad was an incredible husband.
Imagine you know that's the man I look up to.
Where's that guy? I can be that guy?
Speaker 1 (19:18):
You know.
Speaker 4 (19:19):
I find so much respect in men who value their family,
their home, and they're able to also feed themselves. Tasha's
over here telling us last night how he takes time
and he goes and he does the deprivation tanks, and
I'm like, man, you're a father, you're taking care of
your family, you're doing all this, and you're making time
(19:41):
to go feed into your individual spirituality. That balance is like,
I'm so at aw in that, and I just want
to continue to feed that narrative that as men we
can be in both. We can be incredible husbands, we
could be successful, and we can be both dope.
Speaker 5 (20:03):
To answer your question for the gender fluidity and all
that stuff, I just want to be a safe place.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
I just want to be whatever that means in the moment.
Speaker 5 (20:11):
I want to be considered safe and over time, as
it might be revealed that something I may be doing
or saying isn't safe then I want to correct that.
I just want to be the safe place that I
wished I had when I was younger, So I want
to be that instead. So that's to answer your question.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
Can we can we keep it here? Because one thing
I've been navigating is, first off, I almost had to
take a collective breath because the men in our life
did do I like to believe they did the best
they could, and there's so much shame and judgment, and
so a lot of my cousins, for example, that's who
(20:55):
I go to, my cousins to make sure I'm still
proximate to most men because I can get inside my
own bubble around hanging out with you, Eric and trying
to be the best husbands and best partners and best everything.
But what do you tell those men? The main not
have good role models around them. The may forgot their traditions.
(21:16):
The may are just having to be more bravado because
they think that's the way to get the acclamation or
the love that they're seeking. Like, how do you call
in rather than call out those men in our families
or in their communities. Oh, this way, we're here.
Speaker 5 (21:32):
First, I don't say nothing unless I had a right
to speak because I just kind of wait and listen
first and see if it's even going to be appropriate
for me to you know, interject my whatever I have
for anybody else, and then if those organic windows open
up for the right to speak, then it's just a
matter of loving that person and who they are and
being a safe place for them to also go through
(21:54):
the process that you know, hurt people hurt people and
heal people can heal people, so where they're at their
trauma journey, maybe why they're doing what they're doing. So
it's just you know, being a safe place for them
and also treating them with love.
Speaker 4 (22:10):
Yeah, I think a big difference maker for people who
you know, haven't really been given the tools or been
exposed to the right way. From our experience and what
I believe in connecting the spirit, having those moments of stillness, reflection,
the awareness, I think we can find a lot of answers,
a lot of direction, a lot of enlightenment when we
(22:33):
we get in a quiet space, we pray, we connect,
and I feel like we can make big steps in
those moments and we can kind of take inventory, reconnect
and re embrace the way or restep into our life
in a different way connecting into that greater power. And
(22:56):
you know, I that's that's my medicine.
Speaker 2 (23:01):
Yeah, all that for sure I agree with and you
know with that one had said is calling in as well,
and you know or.
Speaker 3 (23:07):
Or when you get that opportunity.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
There's a lot of things we observe, you know, of
of other men in the community that you know some
of it is it depends on the situation that we
can come up and depending on a relationship that we
can call them in. And I always believe in is
in leadership. One of the one of the I think
leadership across the board, one of the strengths is seeing
the strengths and other people and you you zoom in
on that strength and you help build that up. Then
(23:30):
they're open to you. They're open to you. Then you
come in and you say, but right here, I want
to also point out with this is what you said
what was done over there, that you could think differently
next time, maybe try this instead, you know, because these
people over here.
Speaker 3 (23:41):
Didn't like that, you know, and and you know you
kind of bringing in those things.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
That's kind of what I do with the guys around
me when I feel I have that opportunity and I
think even with guys, you know, even through social media,
the things I've seen reaching out to men and or
you know, try to incorporate that as well, and that
that domain the virtual mean. But I think above all
for myself too is I try to I try to
display it, you know, I try to live it and
(24:05):
show it. You try to model that, show it in
community and a lot of my work is as a
community health educator is someone who shares this sorts of
content online. I try to be very objective about what
I'm showing, you know, I'm showing. You know, the other
day I showed the videos me and my daughter doing
her hair. You know, most people might think that that's
something only a woman does at all, that's a you know,
(24:27):
that's a that's the only women do that, or only
gay men you know do their children's hair and things
like that. But you know, sharing those things and sort
of modeling that and kind of giving people another perspective
and insight.
Speaker 5 (24:39):
We call that a a compliment sandwich, where you compliment
and then challenge and in compliment like let's go there.
Speaker 1 (24:47):
It is compliment sandwich. Well in that same vein, you know,
from a practical if someone's in the audience right now,
listening or watching at home. What's one practical thing that
a person obviously we're talking about man here, but a
person can do to be more centered with self. Like,
what's one thing? Was it a ritual? Is it a ceremony?
(25:09):
Is just a practice that each one of you do
in your daily life? Go ahead?
Speaker 5 (25:16):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (25:17):
Sure, yeah, Well, you know I talk a lot about
I believe everyone carries a fire in them. Everyone has
a fire. It was attached to us at birth. And
as we go through this life here we experience life
and our when we're children, right, our fire is strong.
And that's what I learned from my children and other
working with other children in the community. And when we
go through life sometimes in this society, the conditions that
(25:38):
we were raised upon, this materialism with a complete void
of spirituality, it dims that fire. And so now we're
stuck in these constructs and we are stuck not being
able to carry out a vision for ourselves. So I
always believe we have a fire, and it's about building
that fire. Healing and wellness is about building that fire.
It's about giving ourselves opportunity and tools to build that fire.
Speaker 3 (26:01):
Because when we have that fire.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
We share that with other people that are in our
sacred circle, people that you love and you cherish, people
that you give love to.
Speaker 3 (26:10):
You use it in your work. These guys use it
in his hoop dance.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
He uses it in his music, and they use it
in their ability when they connect with people. You use that,
and you're writing, you use that and your ability to
connect with people. And that fire is always there and
it's about building it back up. So I always encourage
people to think about that you have that fire. And
here follow me on this, because what we'll do is this,
we'll build your fire really quickly for just a just
(26:33):
a second, and just follow right here.
Speaker 3 (26:35):
Just follow here.
Speaker 2 (26:37):
And listen to all the sounds in here. You're acknowledging
your sense of touch. Go ahead and take your breath in.
You're breathing in air and then a long excel and
you're giving thanks for the air all around us, and
you're giving thanks for the beautiful words you're hearing, the
beautiful things you're seeing in here, the flavors you had today,
(26:58):
you're getting thanks for water, rain, all these things. You
acknowledge all these things right here. Take another deep breath
in your nose long, excel. I just feel your own,
your own fire. Go ahead and hover your hands and
notice that tingling sensation, that friction, and hover those inches
(27:18):
and centimeters away. Bounce that fire around right there, and
that fire right there, that's the one that was always
with you. Shake your head, yeah, if you can, If
you can feel your your fire, that's your power. That's
your fire. It was given to you at birth. And
no matter how many times you were hurt, no one
took that fire away. They couldn't take that fire away
from you. It's always with you. Collectively. They didn't take
it from us. It's always with us. He didn't take
(27:40):
it from you, no matter how many times he did
what he did or what she did. Remember they were
hurt when they did those things. So that's your fire
right there, and this magnetic energy you're giving that you
know in your life.
Speaker 3 (27:53):
You're giving that in your work and your passion.
Speaker 2 (27:55):
And so that's a practice I want to share with
you that you can do.
Speaker 1 (27:59):
It's good.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
I loved seeing everyone's expression as they were feeling their
own fire or their power.
Speaker 1 (28:05):
Man along the same lines.
Speaker 4 (28:07):
We all have that inside of us, and I think
that society doesn't set us up for success.
Speaker 3 (28:12):
We're not set up for it. We're not set up
to feed that fire.
Speaker 4 (28:15):
Our technology, our phones were always being distracted from looking inwards.
And I think that when we find those moments to
feed our fire, even what you guys just did, to
take a breath, to disconnect and to understand all of that,
to reflect, to understand your story, to understand the decisions
you made where everything changed, everything went a different direction
(28:38):
and why, And that's where we find strength that the
world doesn't necessarily want us to find, because when we
find that, we're unstoppable. And I just want everybody to
realize that we all have that inside of us and
it's not mapped out for us, but it's in us
(28:59):
and we've always known it.
Speaker 3 (29:01):
We just have to get back to it.
Speaker 1 (29:04):
I don't have anything daily that I do.
Speaker 5 (29:08):
I think I live on a pendulum between huborist and humility,
and we're trying to find where to be at on
that pendulum between hubris and humility and self awareness is
the guide. And so it's more not a daily thing,
but it's when self awareness makes reveals something I need
to change or add.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
That's the practice. But I'm going to start doing that
fire though, because I needed that today was Unfortunately we're
getting close to time and one. I want to thank
you for all of your words, but that exercise in
particular Thosh really showed how connected each and every one
(29:48):
of us is and that regardless of the systems and
the structures, that we never lose sight of that fire
that's always within us. So really quick, any last words
that you want to share before we close? Was the circle? Oh?
Speaker 5 (30:03):
I mean I think that you you hit it already
with the oneeness that's in the room, regardless of constructs, race, gender, etcetera.
That that fire was within all of us and universal
and that we were all where it is.
Speaker 1 (30:19):
Yeah, DJMC one.
Speaker 4 (30:28):
Community community. I love Indian Country so much. I love
I love our community. I love what Crystal is doing
here with Indigenous House. We did a little lunch earlier
and I was telling the best asset that you guys
have as each other, uplifting each other, supporting one another,
and that's what they're creating here.
Speaker 3 (30:48):
We're so powerful together.
Speaker 4 (30:51):
So you know, you could look at the person next
to you right now and say I got you.
Speaker 3 (30:56):
No, literally do it, we got you, got you, got.
Speaker 1 (31:01):
You realize you.
Speaker 2 (31:04):
Yeah, a lot of great things to to go on
and on about, a lot of great things to go
on and on about. You know, I love this topic
right here, and and uh, you know, I encourage you know,
all the native men out there in Native country to
to to be the be the the the one that's
going to step out to to look at and address
(31:25):
and to acknowledge that things such as a male supremacist
ideology that has infiltrated our ways. To acknowledge addiction, depression,
and all aggressive behaviors, anxiety, to acknowledge those are just
symptoms of our people out of balance.
Speaker 3 (31:37):
Those are this Those are not the problems themselves.
Speaker 2 (31:39):
The problem is that is out of balance and the
infiltration and and the the the loss and and who
we we we were. So I encourage men to get
on that healing journey, to get on that journey of
sobriety from substances, from alcohol and over reliance on certain
natural medicines, you know, and and to be able to
learn about meditation and ceremony for themselves, build their fire,
(32:00):
and then get themselves involved in community and have his
vision for himself, have a vision of how he wants
to think, feel, and act in the future and think
about all the circles that he's doing in this immediate
time here and how they lead up to the long
the goal of longevity for him and for for for
coming generations. So one of the things that that I'm
doing in my community is revitalizing the Men's War Club
(32:21):
and it's a purpose. It's as we're repurposing it as
a symbol, as a symbol for strength, protectorship, and at
the same time addressing things like diabetes, you know, all
the metabolic disorders, but helping men to empower. And I've
seen men that you would not see step foot in
the gym come over into these because they're looking for
that circle. Like the stuff that Mike does in la
as well with his Men's group. The men are looking
for something to gravitate to to so they can be
(32:44):
in camaraderie. And you know, in this but we've even
welcomed men of the Two Spirit community that have came
in and other men you know, see that and they
recognize that they recognize that they too have that need
to they still have masculinity that they still have to
expressing that. There you go, they have to express that
as well. So we embraced that you know in there
is brothers. So you know, I encourage men out there
(33:06):
native country to to pick up those those your your
your what your warriors used to use in those times,
you know, and to restore that for a new purpose
and new cause and ask for help, ask for help
of the women.
Speaker 3 (33:17):
Because some of us are cavemen. We should know, but
sometimes we ask.
Speaker 2 (33:21):
We have to ask. I ask my wife all the time,
what does this? Does this make sense? Does it sound like?
Speaker 3 (33:24):
Do I sound like a misogynist? Do I sound like
a caveman when I say this?
Speaker 1 (33:27):
You know?
Speaker 2 (33:28):
And she corrects me all the time, And so I
tell men, you know, just just be humble and accept it.
It frees you up when you just say, I don't
know answer to that question. Oh I messed up. That's
you're right, you know, that's that's I was wrong. I
shouldn't have said that.
Speaker 3 (33:41):
You know.
Speaker 2 (33:41):
When you let that go, you free yourself, take that
stress off yourself, that physiological stress that might drive him
to drink, to use, to hit, to steal or whatever.
Speaker 3 (33:51):
You know.
Speaker 2 (33:51):
So I encourage man, I tell this the men in
our group all the time, you know, to let go
be wrong, be okay with that you know, be okay,
I not knowing how to advise something and you know,
to restore that. So I I encourage I think all
people in society have a role within this movement too,
and I encourage Native women to you know also, uh
find out how they can be a service to help
(34:13):
these men, so the men can help them and children
and and things like that that cycle. Understand that we
have a place within that cycle. And once again that
that indigenous male ontological identity, his existence is understanding that
that that he is only because of those that are
around him are well, you know, and and and and
it's reciprocal in that sense. So I encourage everyone to
(34:33):
to try to you know, to to help this these
spaces and and and you know, to encourage us to
to work together.
Speaker 1 (34:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (34:42):
Lots to say, but I'll leave it at that.
Speaker 1 (34:49):
Well, I'll uh, I'll end with three things.
Speaker 3 (34:52):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (34:52):
First and foremost, I want to make sure that I
look each one of you in the eye and just
say thank you humbly. I came into this conversation as
I shared as a as a father and a son
and a husband, and I want to model men also
saying I love you and I thank you humbly thank
(35:14):
you for you being on your journey. Thank you you
too as well. The second thing, I just want to
say thank you to everybody here. You know, healing is
not a solo journey. Healing only happens we're in a community.
I was able to heal because we were in conversation,
but also because all the energy in the room was here.
(35:34):
So I want to thank you for being co participants
and panelists in this conversation. And the last thing, I'll
just end by saying this, this is why the Indigenous
House is so important, because it's about these kind of
conversations and these stories coming to the mainstream. It's about
building community like this, but it's really about building a
home where we're all being able to be seen and
(35:55):
felt and loved. And so thank you all. We're going
to close this second man, We're going to open up
the blinds and go and have a good time. But
thank you everybody who made this possible and all of
you and continue to love the men in our lives.
So a Shay oholl Who. Sacred Lessons is a production
of My Heart's Michael through It, our podcast network, Sacred
(36:17):
Lessons Media, and the Prince Group For more of your
favorite shows, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
you get your podcasts.
What are the cycles fathers passed down that sons they're
left to yield. What if being a man was about
holding it all together? I've and learning how to let go.
This is a space where men speak troops to find
the power to heal and transform. I'm Mike Dela Rocha.
Welcome to Sacred Lessons. What you're about to hear didn't
(00:23):
start out as a podcast episode. It started out as
a sacred circle. This conversation was recorded live at the
launch of the Indigenous House, a visionary space rooted in
Indigenous culture, creativity and community. What unfolded wasn't rehearsed, it
was felt. Welcome to Sacred Lessons. I'm Mike Dela Rocha.
(00:43):
In this special episode, you'll hear a powerful, honest conversation
with dj mc one, Eric, Michael Hernandez, and Tosh Collins
as we explored men's healing, where our earliest lessons of
manhood came from, how those lessons have shaped us, and
what it takes to choose vulnerability, presence and care in
(01:04):
a world that often tells man to do the opposite.
This is not a conversation about having it all figured out.
It's about telling the truth and community about remembering that
healing doesn't happen alone. Wherever you're listening from, we invite
you into our sacred circle. All right, how's everybody doing?
(01:27):
This is a big celebration. I first just want to humbly,
humbly say thank you to Crystal and Michael and Colin Patrick,
all the team that made this happen. Also the serving
staff that's in the back, the hotel workers, all of this.
All these folks were making this happen. So I was
thinking of how to start this panel, and I was like, well, well,
(01:49):
do I want to come in through a company angle
or an organizer angle? And I thought about it, and
I went back and I prayed, and I want to
come to you as a father and as a son
and as a husband. Ten years ago, I unexpectedly lost
my father. He went in for a back surgery and
he never came out. And my father was the most
(02:10):
important man in my life. And I had to deal
with all these issues of grief and loss. And I
start to really explore, like why did he die at
the age of sixty six, and why was it so
hard for him to say, Miho, I love you, or
why was it so hard for him to say, I
love you and I need help. I started to unpacking.
(02:35):
I realized the same conditions and behaviors that led to
my dad to pass, I had inherited myself, not just
from my family, but also from the society that we
live in. Three months ago, I came out with a
book called Sacred Lessons, Teaching my Father how to Love,
and I've been blessed in honor to travel the country.
(02:55):
In the last three and a half months, I've gone
to seven states, twenty five cities, and spoken to over
six thousand people, predominantly men. And I will share two things.
One is, men of all ages, all identities are holding
an immense amount of pain, immense amount of grief and
(03:17):
feeling like we're alone and don't know how and who
to go to. But the second thing, which is why
I'm so grateful to be at the Indigenous House, is
the other story that's not being told, is the story
of men that are really trying to be better people,
really going to therapy, really getting in touch with the
cultural practices, and trying to remember who we are as
(03:39):
a people. So this conversation is called Sacred Lessons, Exploring
Men's healing and it's a start in an ongoing conversation.
But I'm so honored to be joined up here by
three incredible people. DJMC won are in gaining the head.
You know the warning that I'm going to introduce all
three and all three will come up with the same time,
(04:01):
because we've got to have music introduce these incredible people,
incredible men. So first dj MC one, who really is
at the forefront of using music as a way to
center culture, community and connection. When I think about Indigenous
sounds and music, I think about him. Eric Michael Hernandez,
(04:23):
an incredible person who's bringing the hoop dance back, who
has this incredible film if you haven't seen, called Courage,
that is really his life story, but it's actually all
of our story about how the medicine we need is
actually in our culture and in our DNA, and if
we take the courage to remember that, we'll be one again.
(04:44):
And last, Gosh Collins, where is he my brother? We
got to break some bear root in the back and
talk about our ancestors and our cultures. Not only is
he an author of an incredible book, but he's literally
(05:05):
at the forefront of man's healing and Indian country when you
think about how do we invite people in rather than
calling people out? Is through Thosh and so many people.
So if you can please give a big round of applause. Well,
first off, thank you so much for being up here,
for the work that you do. I want to thank
your ancestors but also your partners for allowing you to
(05:27):
be here. In your families, we oftentimes travel like myself,
and someone's at the home taking care of the kids.
So just thank you. I want to just start first question.
We can go down the line, maybe Thosh will go
like this, but so much of masculinity, manhood is defined
by you know, what we provide for the family, how
(05:48):
we protect the family. But our worth is defined really
by our values, by our work. Can you share what
was you know, one of the first ways that you
learned of like what it means to be a man.
It was an experience or story or something.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
Yeah, well, scoop, gosh.
Speaker 3 (06:06):
Everyone.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
Good to be here, really honored to be up here,
to be sitting alongside these gentlemen here, and to be
sitting with Mike and in front of you all. And
I just want to acknowledge each and every one of
you and grateful that you're here today and I'm looking
forward to this conversation and yeah, great, great, great conversation.
Speaker 3 (06:24):
To you know, open this up with.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
And really I think back to my history and being
raised on the reservation where I was. Really it was
really your privilege to be a part of a generation,
my dad and his generation, who were revitalizing a lot
of things in the community. And one of our ceremonies
is was called for a men's circle, and in that
(06:47):
circle there we learned about fasting, and there was lots
of other important tasks that we had to do to
play our role within the ceremony and things that you know,
sort of are kind of popular today, cold under and
such things that our people have been doing for a
long time. And yeah, that's what a part of that.
And you know, they used to tell us, they says
that they would make us get in there as you know,
(07:08):
as young boys, eight nine, ten, it'd be freezing cold
and we'd come out and they'd say that this is this, uh,
this is to to to increase your grit. And I
used to think it was very you know, something I
had to do with my physical self here and there.
Speaker 3 (07:22):
But as I get older, then I realize.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
I see that they're talking about your your grit to
overcome adversity. But through that whole process, through through you know,
this men's circles and gathering, and throughout my twenty something
years of traveling native country, it's it's it's it's very
clear that that indigenous masculinity is it is rooted in reciprocity,
It's it's rooted in protectorship, it's rooted in understanding that
(07:46):
we have a very sacred role within this this greater
you know, web of life here, that that our role
within that is we are one one half of providing life,
and that we have a sacred responsibility in that. And
part of are ontological male identity is understanding that self actualization.
He's understanding his spiritual purpose and his role that as
(08:07):
he travels through this life here, there's a path here
that is that welcomes him to be a part of
that and that he he his his role is is
is also an accessory to to the other important roles
that are outside of his domains, such as you know,
the women are our two spirit relatives, children, elderly people.
And I think part of that that that male identity
(08:29):
under is understanding that his role, his role is dependent
on them and they are dependent on him and he
and with respect to to their role that he he
benefits from allowing them to play their role and creating
a safe space for that role as well. So I
think that these are real critical things. And you know,
one of the biggest discernments between us and Western patriarchy
(08:50):
is that Native Native masculine identity isn't it's not about
dominion right over land and women. It's it's it's one
that's in survey, that's understanding reciprocity, and so it's a
it's a sacred role that the man must have understanding
this first division that he has, but also understanding the
(09:10):
steps that he has to take in order to fulfill
that vision, which is his place is in community. It's
it's on the land, it's hands on, it's it's intellect,
it's it's spiritual maturity, and on all various aspects. So
I think, you know, from my experience on the res
and traveling Native country, not just from my own community,
but traveling Native country, those are the things that you know,
I've arrived at over time to understand and see that.
(09:32):
And also you know, I learned a lot about my
masculinity from watching my mother, you know, watching you know,
even my how what my wife expects of me, what
my two daughters expected me. Those things that helps me
to to to formulate. Oh okay, I learned about being
My masculine identity is taught not to me just by
other men displaying it, but by by the women in
(09:53):
my life as well, or what the two spirit community
also asks of us as well, and that teaches us.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
So yeah, thank you.
Speaker 4 (10:10):
I gotta follow after thas on how to be a man.
Speaker 3 (10:16):
I'm just kidding.
Speaker 4 (10:17):
My name is Eric hernandezm a member of the Lumbee
tribe from North Carolina and very honored to be here.
Growing up in a broken home, you know, my dad
kind of not being around too often, I felt like
I kind of had to redefine what what I thought
it meant to be a man. Growing up as the
youngest of three boys as well, I watched my two
(10:39):
older brothers really follow in my dad's footsteps incredible athletes.
I didn't have too much success in sports. I found
success and expression through dance, and I think that the
lane that I've found that has allowed me to have
an impact on our community is showing the strength of
vulnerability as a man, showing the strength of expression, which
(11:02):
I think is a big thing that men deal with,
you know, And that's where I've found my most strength
is just finding the courage to share my authentic truths,
not trying to be nobody else. You know, I'm not
trying to be more manly than I think I really am.
I'm just trying to be me. All of my power
that I can carry in this world is through me,
(11:25):
tapping into me, and I want to be that for
my children, my future children. I'm honored to be up
here with these incredible men who have families and strong
women by their side, and I strive to be you know,
just like you guys.
Speaker 3 (11:40):
Very inspired by these men.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
I'm sitting here.
Speaker 5 (11:42):
With Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, clap it up. Oh I
gotta follow all y'all. Man, I'm bringing the chubby over here.
It's okay, it's all right. I'm gonna get my work
out in soon enough.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
Don't worry. Don't you worry. I'm catching up.
Speaker 5 (11:58):
But as far as the man in my life that
you're asking about, was like similar to what you're saying,
the man was gone, he was missing, so my mom
was thirteen pregnant.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
I went to eighth grade twice. First time I went
with her to alternative school.
Speaker 5 (12:12):
Second time, I was an eighth grader, so men was missing,
So the idea of masculinity and how to form that.
When you say who taught you to be a man,
I'm like, I'm still trying to learn. I'm still in
this game as a student, so I'm trying to figure
it out. And like what Thosh was saying is accurate.
I got most of my masculinity from my grandma. So
my grandma was the one who raised me up to
(12:33):
figure how to be the man she wanted me to be.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
That might not be.
Speaker 5 (12:37):
The what you would think is when you thought she
said that, I was like, oh, dang, that's exactly like
I got mine from the void. And then men that
did come around, they were untrustworthy, maybe harmful, and so
I grew up not really really relating well to men.
I could get along better with women simply because that's
(12:58):
who I was around and felt more comfort with, and
men could potentially be dangerous in my history as growing up,
so I was always a little guarded with men and uh,
but I was thankful that my Grandma was the one
to be able to tell me what she wanted out
of a man, and then I felt like that that helped.
It wasn't until high school that I get in on
these relationships and then I get the fear of loss,
(13:20):
and that's when the toxicity comes out.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
And I was like, oh, well, if.
Speaker 5 (13:23):
I lose this, if I lose this girl, see the
programming of possession and the programming of objectifying, and now unlocked,
all this high scarcity and all those toxicities come out
and go, oh no, I don't want to be one
of those men that I didn't want to get. Grandma
didn't want me to be to begin with. So the
short answer is, my Grandma's the one who helped me
(13:46):
learn how to be a man, and I'm still learning.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
Thank you. Let's let's stay with this this, let's tease
this out. And I was sharing earlier we have a script,
but spirits will take this where needs to go. So
you know what I really find profound is all three
of you were talking about how you were learning from
(14:11):
the women in your life. Right, some of us had
fathers or father figures and some of us didn't. But ultimately,
this issue of gender is an issue of power and control,
but also Adrian Murray Brown says that we're living in
someone's imagination. Like somebody thought it was okay for men
to dominate the land, the people, the sky, everything else.
(14:32):
Said in enough times where it became policy and it
became truth. From your guys experiences, I guess we're going
to go the same way in this time. Like you know, gender,
like race is a construct, right, We're talking about energy
and we both encompass all these energies when we think
about redefining masculinity in manhood, how do you take that?
(14:53):
What is what should be into like how you're trying
to be a better person that shows up at as
a man.
Speaker 2 (15:02):
I always with any sort of endeavor I think in
contemporary times, coming from indigenous lens, indigenous standpoint, I always
take into account the historic, the historic practice, indigenous ways
of knowing and being. There's that, there's also my lived
experience as well, and there's also sometimes I take into
account what I like science and data, so I look
at that as well, and I feel like navigating this
(15:26):
world we we learned to we learned to find out,
you know what, what what is working for me here?
Speaker 3 (15:33):
What what you.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
Know, reassessing situations and how we carry ourselves in community.
So for me, my my basis, my foundation is always
what is the the the hemadug of the autumn charge,
what is the way of life of men? And how
is he supposed to carry himself and etiquette in community?
And since things are shifting in this day and age there,
how does he adapt and navigate. I'm always kind of
(15:56):
going back and forth with myself because where I come
from it's mal led, It really is mal led. But
there once again, I also I also say that it's
a slippery slope with getting in certain uh sort of
trying to carry out some original practices, because now it's
it's conflated oftentimes with the toxicity of of of other
(16:16):
types of patriarchy. So it's we have to almost reassess.
We have to reassess about not what did they do
back then, but what am I going to do now?
How am I going to act now? How am I
going to respond to the world now knowing what I
know with the changing of society, with the changing of
traditional gender norms, and and really I think that it
(16:37):
also comes into you know, from my lived experience, like
what you said you said that it's it's energies.
Speaker 3 (16:41):
Human beings.
Speaker 1 (16:42):
We are.
Speaker 3 (16:43):
We are energetic beings.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
We are we are a lot more malleable and adaptable
than the social contract as constructs allow us to think.
We are very adaptable, malleable, and and so that's the
beauty of us as human beings is our nervous system
changes and adapts. And you when you peel away our heart,
when you peel away you know our our mind here,
(17:05):
and you peel away all these things, and you look
at us as as human beings. We are conscious entities,
we are spirit consciousness, and we are connected to so
much more. This is just a human experience we are
having here. But this human experience is also very maluable.
So I think that how I navigate that is first
and foremost see us. It's looking at the traditional roles
in which was expected to me in etiquette, and how
(17:26):
I act in community. And if there's some if there's
some ways where these cultural ways no longer work because
of the grief and the trauma and the infiltration of
Western patriarchy, then I shift, I pivot, and I use.
Speaker 3 (17:38):
My own discretion.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
But again, using your discretion, I believe requires a spiritual, physical, intellectual,
emotional wellness, and being able to discern and and and
consult with everyone, all parties in the group. I think
that that's how I have always kind of gone about
these things in my community.
Speaker 4 (17:58):
Yeah, I just want to find the best balance in
life to be able to. I want to be as
successful as I can be. I want to be as
strong as I can be. I want to dress as
well as I can dress. I want to make as
much money as I can make, and at the same time,
I want to be the most loyal man to his
his woman. I want to be the best father I
(18:19):
can be. I feel like I grew up seeing those
worlds separated, seeing men who have everything, have all the success,
but they're out doing who knows what or or the
guy is super loyal to his you know wife, he's
got all those kids, but you know what's he got on?
Speaker 3 (18:36):
What's what's what's he doing?
Speaker 4 (18:38):
Like you know, you know, so I would I want
to find that that blend. I want to I want
to break those stereotypes and and just be that man
who and and and be an example to our next generation.
I I want to be the guy that I always
wanted to see I always saw my dad my hero. However,
(19:02):
you know, he wasn't the best man to my mom.
And I'm like, dang, Imagine my dad was an incredible husband.
Imagine you know that's the man I look up to.
Where's that guy? I can be that guy?
Speaker 1 (19:18):
You know.
Speaker 4 (19:19):
I find so much respect in men who value their family,
their home, and they're able to also feed themselves. Tasha's
over here telling us last night how he takes time
and he goes and he does the deprivation tanks, and
I'm like, man, you're a father, you're taking care of
your family, you're doing all this, and you're making time
(19:41):
to go feed into your individual spirituality. That balance is like,
I'm so at aw in that, and I just want
to continue to feed that narrative that as men we
can be in both. We can be incredible husbands, we
could be successful, and we can be both dope.
Speaker 5 (20:03):
To answer your question for the gender fluidity and all
that stuff, I just want to be a safe place.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
I just want to be whatever that means in the moment.
Speaker 5 (20:11):
I want to be considered safe and over time, as
it might be revealed that something I may be doing
or saying isn't safe then I want to correct that.
I just want to be the safe place that I
wished I had when I was younger, So I want
to be that instead. So that's to answer your question.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
Can we can we keep it here? Because one thing
I've been navigating is, first off, I almost had to
take a collective breath because the men in our life
did do I like to believe they did the best
they could, and there's so much shame and judgment, and
so a lot of my cousins, for example, that's who
(20:55):
I go to, my cousins to make sure I'm still
proximate to most men because I can get inside my
own bubble around hanging out with you, Eric and trying
to be the best husbands and best partners and best everything.
But what do you tell those men? The main not
have good role models around them. The may forgot their traditions.
(21:16):
The may are just having to be more bravado because
they think that's the way to get the acclamation or
the love that they're seeking. Like, how do you call
in rather than call out those men in our families
or in their communities. Oh, this way, we're here.
Speaker 5 (21:32):
First, I don't say nothing unless I had a right
to speak because I just kind of wait and listen
first and see if it's even going to be appropriate
for me to you know, interject my whatever I have
for anybody else, and then if those organic windows open
up for the right to speak, then it's just a
matter of loving that person and who they are and
being a safe place for them to also go through
(21:54):
the process that you know, hurt people hurt people and
heal people can heal people, so where they're at their
trauma journey, maybe why they're doing what they're doing. So
it's just you know, being a safe place for them
and also treating them with love.
Speaker 4 (22:10):
Yeah, I think a big difference maker for people who
you know, haven't really been given the tools or been
exposed to the right way. From our experience and what
I believe in connecting the spirit, having those moments of stillness, reflection,
the awareness, I think we can find a lot of answers,
a lot of direction, a lot of enlightenment when we
(22:33):
we get in a quiet space, we pray, we connect,
and I feel like we can make big steps in
those moments and we can kind of take inventory, reconnect
and re embrace the way or restep into our life
in a different way connecting into that greater power. And
(22:56):
you know, I that's that's my medicine.
Speaker 2 (23:01):
Yeah, all that for sure I agree with and you
know with that one had said is calling in as well,
and you know or.
Speaker 3 (23:07):
Or when you get that opportunity.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
There's a lot of things we observe, you know, of
of other men in the community that you know some
of it is it depends on the situation that we
can come up and depending on a relationship that we
can call them in. And I always believe in is
in leadership. One of the one of the I think
leadership across the board, one of the strengths is seeing
the strengths and other people and you you zoom in
on that strength and you help build that up. Then
(23:30):
they're open to you. They're open to you. Then you
come in and you say, but right here, I want
to also point out with this is what you said
what was done over there, that you could think differently
next time, maybe try this instead, you know, because these
people over here.
Speaker 3 (23:41):
Didn't like that, you know, and and you know you
kind of bringing in those things.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
That's kind of what I do with the guys around
me when I feel I have that opportunity and I
think even with guys, you know, even through social media,
the things I've seen reaching out to men and or
you know, try to incorporate that as well, and that
that domain the virtual mean. But I think above all
for myself too is I try to I try to
display it, you know, I try to live it and
(24:05):
show it. You try to model that, show it in
community and a lot of my work is as a
community health educator is someone who shares this sorts of
content online. I try to be very objective about what
I'm showing, you know, I'm showing. You know, the other
day I showed the videos me and my daughter doing
her hair. You know, most people might think that that's
something only a woman does at all, that's a you know,
(24:27):
that's a that's the only women do that, or only
gay men you know do their children's hair and things
like that. But you know, sharing those things and sort
of modeling that and kind of giving people another perspective
and insight.
Speaker 5 (24:39):
We call that a a compliment sandwich, where you compliment
and then challenge and in compliment like let's go there.
Speaker 1 (24:47):
It is compliment sandwich. Well in that same vein, you know,
from a practical if someone's in the audience right now,
listening or watching at home. What's one practical thing that
a person obviously we're talking about man here, but a
person can do to be more centered with self. Like,
what's one thing? Was it a ritual? Is it a ceremony?
(25:09):
Is just a practice that each one of you do
in your daily life? Go ahead?
Speaker 5 (25:16):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (25:17):
Sure, yeah, Well, you know I talk a lot about
I believe everyone carries a fire in them. Everyone has
a fire. It was attached to us at birth. And
as we go through this life here we experience life
and our when we're children, right, our fire is strong.
And that's what I learned from my children and other
working with other children in the community. And when we
go through life sometimes in this society, the conditions that
(25:38):
we were raised upon, this materialism with a complete void
of spirituality, it dims that fire. And so now we're
stuck in these constructs and we are stuck not being
able to carry out a vision for ourselves. So I
always believe we have a fire, and it's about building
that fire. Healing and wellness is about building that fire.
It's about giving ourselves opportunity and tools to build that fire.
Speaker 3 (26:01):
Because when we have that fire.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
We share that with other people that are in our
sacred circle, people that you love and you cherish, people
that you give love to.
Speaker 3 (26:10):
You use it in your work. These guys use it
in his hoop dance.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
He uses it in his music, and they use it
in their ability when they connect with people. You use that,
and you're writing, you use that and your ability to
connect with people. And that fire is always there and
it's about building it back up. So I always encourage
people to think about that you have that fire. And
here follow me on this, because what we'll do is this,
we'll build your fire really quickly for just a just
(26:33):
a second, and just follow right here.
Speaker 3 (26:35):
Just follow here.
Speaker 2 (26:37):
And listen to all the sounds in here. You're acknowledging
your sense of touch. Go ahead and take your breath in.
You're breathing in air and then a long excel and
you're giving thanks for the air all around us, and
you're giving thanks for the beautiful words you're hearing, the
beautiful things you're seeing in here, the flavors you had today,
(26:58):
you're getting thanks for water, rain, all these things. You
acknowledge all these things right here. Take another deep breath
in your nose long, excel. I just feel your own,
your own fire. Go ahead and hover your hands and
notice that tingling sensation, that friction, and hover those inches
(27:18):
and centimeters away. Bounce that fire around right there, and
that fire right there, that's the one that was always
with you. Shake your head, yeah, if you can, If
you can feel your your fire, that's your power. That's
your fire. It was given to you at birth. And
no matter how many times you were hurt, no one
took that fire away. They couldn't take that fire away
from you. It's always with you. Collectively. They didn't take
it from us. It's always with us. He didn't take
(27:40):
it from you, no matter how many times he did
what he did or what she did. Remember they were
hurt when they did those things. So that's your fire
right there, and this magnetic energy you're giving that you
know in your life.
Speaker 3 (27:53):
You're giving that in your work and your passion.
Speaker 2 (27:55):
And so that's a practice I want to share with
you that you can do.
Speaker 1 (27:59):
It's good.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
I loved seeing everyone's expression as they were feeling their
own fire or their power.
Speaker 1 (28:05):
Man along the same lines.
Speaker 4 (28:07):
We all have that inside of us, and I think
that society doesn't set us up for success.
Speaker 3 (28:12):
We're not set up for it. We're not set up
to feed that fire.
Speaker 4 (28:15):
Our technology, our phones were always being distracted from looking inwards.
And I think that when we find those moments to
feed our fire, even what you guys just did, to
take a breath, to disconnect and to understand all of that,
to reflect, to understand your story, to understand the decisions
you made where everything changed, everything went a different direction
(28:38):
and why, And that's where we find strength that the
world doesn't necessarily want us to find, because when we
find that, we're unstoppable. And I just want everybody to
realize that we all have that inside of us and
it's not mapped out for us, but it's in us
(28:59):
and we've always known it.
Speaker 3 (29:01):
We just have to get back to it.
Speaker 1 (29:04):
I don't have anything daily that I do.
Speaker 5 (29:08):
I think I live on a pendulum between huborist and humility,
and we're trying to find where to be at on
that pendulum between hubris and humility and self awareness is
the guide. And so it's more not a daily thing,
but it's when self awareness makes reveals something I need
to change or add.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
That's the practice. But I'm going to start doing that
fire though, because I needed that today was Unfortunately we're
getting close to time and one. I want to thank
you for all of your words, but that exercise in
particular Thosh really showed how connected each and every one
(29:48):
of us is and that regardless of the systems and
the structures, that we never lose sight of that fire
that's always within us. So really quick, any last words
that you want to share before we close? Was the circle? Oh?
Speaker 5 (30:03):
I mean I think that you you hit it already
with the oneeness that's in the room, regardless of constructs, race, gender, etcetera.
That that fire was within all of us and universal
and that we were all where it is.
Speaker 1 (30:19):
Yeah, DJMC one.
Speaker 4 (30:28):
Community community. I love Indian Country so much. I love
I love our community. I love what Crystal is doing
here with Indigenous House. We did a little lunch earlier
and I was telling the best asset that you guys
have as each other, uplifting each other, supporting one another,
and that's what they're creating here.
Speaker 3 (30:48):
We're so powerful together.
Speaker 4 (30:51):
So you know, you could look at the person next
to you right now and say I got you.
Speaker 3 (30:56):
No, literally do it, we got you, got you, got.
Speaker 1 (31:01):
You realize you.
Speaker 2 (31:04):
Yeah, a lot of great things to to go on
and on about, a lot of great things to go
on and on about. You know, I love this topic
right here, and and uh, you know, I encourage you know,
all the native men out there in Native country to
to to be the be the the the one that's
going to step out to to look at and address
(31:25):
and to acknowledge that things such as a male supremacist
ideology that has infiltrated our ways. To acknowledge addiction, depression,
and all aggressive behaviors, anxiety, to acknowledge those are just
symptoms of our people out of balance.
Speaker 3 (31:37):
Those are this Those are not the problems themselves.
Speaker 2 (31:39):
The problem is that is out of balance and the
infiltration and and the the the loss and and who
we we we were. So I encourage men to get
on that healing journey, to get on that journey of
sobriety from substances, from alcohol and over reliance on certain
natural medicines, you know, and and to be able to
learn about meditation and ceremony for themselves, build their fire,
(32:00):
and then get themselves involved in community and have his
vision for himself, have a vision of how he wants
to think, feel, and act in the future and think
about all the circles that he's doing in this immediate
time here and how they lead up to the long
the goal of longevity for him and for for for
coming generations. So one of the things that that I'm
doing in my community is revitalizing the Men's War Club
(32:21):
and it's a purpose. It's as we're repurposing it as
a symbol, as a symbol for strength, protectorship, and at
the same time addressing things like diabetes, you know, all
the metabolic disorders, but helping men to empower. And I've
seen men that you would not see step foot in
the gym come over into these because they're looking for
that circle. Like the stuff that Mike does in la
as well with his Men's group. The men are looking
for something to gravitate to to so they can be
(32:44):
in camaraderie. And you know, in this but we've even
welcomed men of the Two Spirit community that have came
in and other men you know, see that and they
recognize that they recognize that they too have that need
to they still have masculinity that they still have to
expressing that. There you go, they have to express that
as well. So we embraced that you know in there
is brothers. So you know, I encourage men out there
(33:06):
native country to to pick up those those your your
your what your warriors used to use in those times,
you know, and to restore that for a new purpose
and new cause and ask for help, ask for help
of the women.
Speaker 3 (33:17):
Because some of us are cavemen. We should know, but
sometimes we ask.
Speaker 2 (33:21):
We have to ask. I ask my wife all the time,
what does this? Does this make sense? Does it sound like?
Speaker 3 (33:24):
Do I sound like a misogynist? Do I sound like
a caveman when I say this?
Speaker 1 (33:27):
You know?
Speaker 2 (33:28):
And she corrects me all the time, And so I
tell men, you know, just just be humble and accept it.
It frees you up when you just say, I don't
know answer to that question. Oh I messed up. That's
you're right, you know, that's that's I was wrong. I
shouldn't have said that.
Speaker 3 (33:41):
You know.
Speaker 2 (33:41):
When you let that go, you free yourself, take that
stress off yourself, that physiological stress that might drive him
to drink, to use, to hit, to steal or whatever.
Speaker 3 (33:51):
You know.
Speaker 2 (33:51):
So I encourage man, I tell this the men in
our group all the time, you know, to let go
be wrong, be okay with that you know, be okay,
I not knowing how to advise something and you know,
to restore that. So I I encourage I think all
people in society have a role within this movement too,
and I encourage Native women to you know also, uh
find out how they can be a service to help
(34:13):
these men, so the men can help them and children
and and things like that that cycle. Understand that we
have a place within that cycle. And once again that
that indigenous male ontological identity, his existence is understanding that
that that he is only because of those that are
around him are well, you know, and and and and
it's reciprocal in that sense. So I encourage everyone to
(34:33):
to try to you know, to to help this these
spaces and and and you know, to encourage us to
to work together.
Speaker 1 (34:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (34:42):
Lots to say, but I'll leave it at that.
Speaker 1 (34:49):
Well, I'll uh, I'll end with three things.
Speaker 3 (34:52):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (34:52):
First and foremost, I want to make sure that I
look each one of you in the eye and just
say thank you humbly. I came into this conversation as
I shared as a as a father and a son
and a husband, and I want to model men also
saying I love you and I thank you humbly thank
(35:14):
you for you being on your journey. Thank you you
too as well. The second thing, I just want to
say thank you to everybody here. You know, healing is
not a solo journey. Healing only happens we're in a community.
I was able to heal because we were in conversation,
but also because all the energy in the room was here.
(35:34):
So I want to thank you for being co participants
and panelists in this conversation. And the last thing, I'll
just end by saying this, this is why the Indigenous
House is so important, because it's about these kind of
conversations and these stories coming to the mainstream. It's about
building community like this, but it's really about building a
home where we're all being able to be seen and
(35:55):
felt and loved. And so thank you all. We're going
to close this second man, We're going to open up
the blinds and go and have a good time. But
thank you everybody who made this possible and all of
you and continue to love the men in our lives.
So a Shay oholl Who. Sacred Lessons is a production
of My Heart's Michael through It, our podcast network, Sacred
(36:17):
Lessons Media, and the Prince Group For more of your
favorite shows, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
you get your podcasts.
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