May 4, 2026 • 47 mins
In this live episode of Sacred Lessons, host Mike de la Rocha continues a powerful series on gender violence with Damariz Vasquez and Ozzy Cruz, two practitioners working on the frontlines of healing at the East L.A. Women’s Center. Moving from awareness to action, this conversation centers the day-to-day realities of supporting survivors, working with men, and creating pathways for true accountability and transformation. Together, they explore how shame, silence, and harmful beliefs about power and gender prevent healing and what it truly takes to break those cycles.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Listen
Watch
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Warning.
Speaker 2 (00:01):
This episode discusses rape and sexual violence. If you or
someone you know requires support, please call the East Los
Angeles Woman's Centers twenty four to seven by lingual hotline
at eight hundred five eight five six two three one.
Speaker 3 (00:17):
What are the cycles fathers passed down that suns they're
left to yield?
Speaker 1 (00:23):
What if being a.
Speaker 3 (00:24):
Man was about holding it all together? I've and learning
how to let go. This is a space where that
speak the truth and find the power to heal and transform.
I'm Mike Dela Rocha. Welcome to Sacred Lessons. If we're honest,
many of us are raised in environments where certain things
were never talked about, and what isn't talked about doesn't disappear,
(00:46):
it gets carried. Welcome to Sacred Lessons on Mike Dela Rocha.
This is the second in the series that's centering a
conversation on sexual violence. Today, we're going to center two
practitioners to in credit people doing the work day in
and day out, to individuals sitting with survivors, working with women,
men and gender non conforming people, and holding sacred space
(01:10):
for transformation in real time. We're joined by Damadis Vasquez,
a practitioner from the East LA Women's Center who's work
directly supports survivors, and Nasie Cruz, who leads men's work
at the East LA Women's Center and is also part
of the National Combatitis Network. One thing I really wanted
to emphasize is this is a sacred conversation, and I
(01:31):
hope that it's it's just open we were talking earlier,
because oftentimes people love to see the car crash, but
they don't want to see the car being repaired. And
in this moment, when there's a lot of fire, I
was really excited for this conversation because there is also
light around the darkness, and there's a lot of healing
(01:54):
and incredible work going on.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
And so I wanted to start with you just.
Speaker 3 (01:59):
You know, what does work look like with survivors, not
just in theory, but in practice, Like what does it
look like in terms of the work that you've been
doing for so long?
Speaker 4 (02:11):
What does it look like in practice?
Speaker 1 (02:13):
It is.
Speaker 5 (02:16):
I'm going to say it's painful work. I'm going to
say it's dirty, messy, but also sacred, and all those
are sacred. So all this work from the way I practice,
the way I bring it in the way I weave
it in with you know, guidance of my elders, my ancestors,
(02:38):
through my own lived experiences is through circles when we
sit in community, when we eliminate the hierarchies or try
because we are part of a system, and so it's
humanizing and it is reminding us that we are secret.
Because we are not told we are sacred, we have
(03:01):
a hard time. And I say we collectively as human beings,
as women, men, gender non conforming folks, we are never
told we're sacred, and we feel like it's something that
we need to achieve right. And so theory and practice
are different things. One of my elders says, Emuel Rivera says,
(03:24):
there are those who know how to build a fire
and those who read about building a fire right, and
so I can know all the technicalities, but once you
get there, you know, nothing lines up. And I say
that from experience as a fire keeper as well. Uh,
there's many ways to make a fire right. But I
(03:47):
didn't read it in the book. You know, my father
taught me, my mother taught me. I know that my
grandmother's you know, learned, and so I carry that information
from my ancestors and once you start in the action,
then you can get dirty and then you figure it
(04:08):
out and they're satisfaction. But you gotta get dirty, you
gotta try. So healing is a process. Another thing about
healing is that healing doesn't happen in isolation. Right, there
is an invitation. We have to be ready. We're not
always ready. But life, like you said, there's a crash.
(04:32):
How did that crash happen? Right, and we focus on
it happened. We don't talk about what happened with the conditions,
and we don't talk about the impact. So when I
talk about harm and when I work with communities, I
don't center it on and the crash, right, insurance comes in.
(04:54):
Everything comes in, and she did it, they did it,
I waitness. I don't want to tell you. And there's
always punishment guilty. Who pays who doesn't? Right now, my
covered do I have insurance? So think about that as
human beings, and it's like, let's step away from that
(05:14):
and let's talk about the impact. Right, those who have
caused harm are impacted and those who experience harm are impacted.
So it's recentering it to let's talk about how you
were impacted regardless of our involvement, because then we can
get to a point of understanding reflection. But also then
(05:38):
we can get to compassion. And if I can find
that compassion and empathy within that reflection, then you could
be ready to be compassionate and empathetic to hear somebody
else right, And I could get carried away with metaphors.
Speaker 1 (05:58):
So that's a good one.
Speaker 5 (06:00):
Get back to me. I invite you to center me
in my thoughts.
Speaker 3 (06:07):
No, no, thank you, Ozzie. Just to go off of that.
It's like the dynamic duel. This is like my real
Marvel superheroes right here. You know you've been doing You've
been holding space sell women center with the men and
the previous conversation talking about the macro and you're centering
(06:28):
like talking about the impact on all of us, because
the impact isn't one way, it's always what have you
learned in terms of your work with men at the
center and just with the Compiler's network and everything.
Speaker 6 (06:42):
Well, appreciate the opportunity and the invitation to be able
to share what I've learned and what has helped me, Mike,
But I have to start off by acknowledging all of
the women who have led this work to create awareness,
who have had to carry the burden of the work,
the responsibility, the sacrifices, both the known sacrifices and the
(07:07):
unknown sacrifices that have now created pathways for us and
men to support this work.
Speaker 7 (07:15):
What I've come to learn in my process.
Speaker 6 (07:17):
And my work with working with men is that there's
not enough awareness as to how do we heal men.
We all know that many of us were raised in
a certain way where we weren't allowed to to feel,
we weren't allowed to touch our emoistions.
Speaker 7 (07:33):
And specifically in my work, I've come to learn.
Speaker 6 (07:37):
That many of us men who were once boys, no
one ever apologized to us. You know, somebody hurt us
and nobody said I'm sorry, and nobody took accountability, and
nobody took responsibility.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
Uh.
Speaker 6 (07:50):
And in that process, boys will eventually grow up to
become young men that will grow up to become men,
and if they choose to become family men. Sometimes that
manifestation doesn't allow us to apologize to someone when we've
hurt them.
Speaker 7 (08:05):
And we all know and recognize that.
Speaker 6 (08:08):
It is often the people that we hurt that we
once promised we weren't hurt and so what I've come
to learn through this work is to acknowledge that we
were hurt too, right, that sometimes those of us that
have inflicted harm or pain on others have also been
on the receiving end of that. And it doesn't negate it,
it doesn't minimize that, but it's a reality that oftentimes
(08:29):
we don't acknowledge. And so in this process of working
with men and working with fathers, it starts to at
the root cause, Right where do we learn that if
we hurt somebody, that we don't have a responsibility within
that right And so if we can acknowledge it, acknowledging
comes with the level of responsibility, right awareness. If you
(08:50):
didn't know what, you didn't know, but guess what now
you know? And if you know, then there's a level
of responsibility that if we do something to hurt somebody,
they would claim to say that we love and we
really want them to get closer to us and want
to strengthen that relationship. Well the member, Maybe it requires
an apology, It requires reflection and understanding that the impact
(09:11):
of the hurts may not allow people to forgive you.
You know that sometimes the hurt so it's so profound
it's so deep, it's so hurtful, that nobody wants to
hear your apology. Right, But when we work with families,
particularly where we're working with men who are fathers, you know,
we center on what's what's best for the child, right,
(09:33):
how do we strengthen that relationship, how do we as
men are seen by our sons and our daughters and
our families and our nieces and our nephews saying that
we're sorry, and that sorry means that it's not going
to happen again, or that we're going to do our
best to ensure that it doesn't happen again, and if
it does, we're gonna we're gonna put forth effort to
make that right. But recognizing that sometimes the impact of
(09:57):
what we do when we hurt people, people may not
be open to receiving or to hearing from us.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
That's powerful.
Speaker 3 (10:06):
Thank you well for both of you and saying that
there's there's a restorative process for those that don't know
what that looks like or feels like. Can you at
least just describe what that looks like, because you know,
as you shared, there may be a point where someone
doesn't want to hear that.
Speaker 1 (10:27):
But that's part of a process that you guys are.
Speaker 3 (10:29):
Doing, and you know we're in a circle that is
also a process. But I wonder if you could just
share a little bit of light for those that don't know, Like, Okay,
what does that look like? If I wanted to step
into something like.
Speaker 6 (10:42):
That, Well, here we are, I'll share, and then you know,
welcome you to the maist to share where you need to.
Part of the process always starts by an invitation. When
we talk about repairing harm, it's not something that needs
(11:02):
to be forced. It's not something that you force somebody
to do, but something that someone has to be willing
to do right. And so it starts there, are you
willing to do the work right? And of course recognizing that,
as I mentioned before, the impact that's that harm, And
in spite of someone not willing to hear you out
and wanting to do that work, can we do that.
Speaker 7 (11:21):
Work with you?
Speaker 6 (11:23):
You know, I think that one of the minimal measurements
of success in this work is a commitment to not
to continue to perpetuate harm. So a person doesn't want
to hear you because they've been hurt by you, they
hold animosity, resentment, whatever that is but can we do
the work so that you begin to recognize how do
you hurt people? Right, the impact that had on your
children and your spouse and your significant other, and ensuring
(11:46):
that if you really truly love these people, is that
you will eventually get to a place in which we
can support you by walking with you, by creating awareness,
by thinking things through, by coaching you to a place
where you can begin to heal for yourself, because many
of us will carry the burden of I hurt somebody
(12:07):
so much so that uh, I.
Speaker 7 (12:09):
Carry it with me.
Speaker 6 (12:11):
You know, in one of your previous segments you mentioned
about the hurt that we carry and how that creates
disease in our bodies. And uh, part of the heating
is also to forgive ourselves for having hurt someone.
Speaker 3 (12:23):
Yeah, you're gonna have to repeat the question, No, just
what is what does the actual process look like when
you're when you're sitting in that circle, when someone comes
to you that's either been harmed or has harmed. You know,
we're saying that it's it's a it's a it's a
personal acknowledgment. I need to do something different, And then
(12:45):
the invitation is like, well, you're invited in. There's there's
so many men that I come across, even on this podcast,
that I have done harm And when they tell me,
they think, the automatic response is I'm going to cancel them.
And when I don't cancel them and I listen, they
start crying because they're not used to that. And then
(13:08):
this society is like, because yes, there is there is
rage that's justified. But then like the invitation and again
this is we were talking about this earlier. Is not
public work, so then we don't see but that one
on one invitation kind of what Jerry was talking about.
We're inviting men in. But once they're invited in, what
(13:28):
does it look like or the with the women that
are suffering from or even the men.
Speaker 5 (13:33):
Yeah, so working with you know, within this binary of
men and women, right, every single man that.
Speaker 4 (13:42):
I've worked with, it all starts with this.
Speaker 5 (13:47):
Right letting go?
Speaker 4 (13:50):
Is that pressure pot?
Speaker 5 (13:51):
Right? I don't think we stop to think the pressures
men carry. Yes, because of the systemic culture rual, you know, familial.
Speaker 4 (14:03):
But there always has to start with.
Speaker 5 (14:04):
On this out and it's not something that hey come here,
you know, it's just like hey, tell me your story.
It's in the way I practice it is in storytelling. Right.
Part of our cultural practices, our ancestral practices, is storytelling.
And so let me know what happened, let me get
(14:27):
to know you right that you know they talk about,
but it never fails that there's this need to just
let go and cry. And I was like, every man
I've sat with just cries and needs to be held
in that and just allow them to be, just allow
(14:47):
them to say, Hey, this is what I feel, this
is what I go through. I feel like they don't
have spaces to feel, spaces to to release because again,
all the pressures, right, and that also goes for women,
all the pressures and holding it together, especially survivors, they
(15:09):
have to appear as a pillar in their home. Right.
Most of the times they don't have that support, that
duality working together, and so they have to be the pillars.
They're the educators, they're the breadwinners. And their families and
so our families all look different and we're all in
(15:29):
different stages when they come in to us, and so
where are they, how are they what's happening? And so
it's tell me your story and I'll hold you through it,
and being transparent. I'm here to hold and create that
container for you. I'm here to support you. You're gonna
(15:52):
you're gonna like how sweet I can be, but then
you're gonna hate me when we come through a point
of reflection and pushing right. And I'm always clear with
every person I work with, like, yes, I would listen.
Speaker 4 (16:05):
But we have to walk together.
Speaker 5 (16:09):
To get through that process of seeing ourselves the mirror
work right.
Speaker 1 (16:15):
And So.
Speaker 5 (16:18):
Everybody talks about these big words and terms accountability, repair,
and I feel like it gets bogged down with academia,
it gets bogged down with how it becomes a trend. Right.
It's like, oh, we're all working on accountability, we're all
working on repair, but what does what does it really mean?
(16:38):
And why can't we define it right? And I'm okay
with not defining it because accountability looks different for everybody.
Accountability is something you choose right. Yes, there's a place
for apologies, there's a place for that if people choose
(16:59):
it right. I think there's so much pressure around that,
but there's not enough conversations being had about how do
we get to accountability and repair. Sometimes we're like, oh, yeah,
I took accountability, it's already done. I can move on,
but we haven't repaired. We haven't talked about what do
(17:19):
I need? What does it look like? And a lot
of the work I've been building at the East LA
Women's Center and with all our community is helping survivors
identify what is accountability to you naming it. A lot
of people have a hard time saying.
Speaker 4 (17:41):
You could tell them.
Speaker 5 (17:42):
They could tell you the story how they were hurt,
well points everything in detail, but what do you need?
Speaker 4 (17:50):
And it's crickets, right.
Speaker 5 (17:53):
What do you need?
Speaker 4 (17:55):
How does that look like?
Speaker 5 (17:58):
And then what I found is that nobody men, women, children, gender,
and nobody knows how to say identify clearly. And I
don't want to say nobody, but the majority that are
going through these processes, it's like, I don't know, right,
it could be immediate stop of the harm, Yes we could,
(18:21):
you know, we could work on that, like Ossie said,
the minimum stop perpetuating harm, right, and what we can
do taking the steps And I always get to a
part of the process where we talk about agreements, right,
the agreements and not just agreements between person or person,
(18:41):
but the agreements you've made to yourself. Right. And this
is something I learned through going through my own process, right,
my other's like, we make agreements to survive. So the
agreements that I held as a child to help me survive,
maybe help me get through my teens, maybe help me
(19:02):
get through my adulthood. But then I'm finding myself and
my story is in isolation. There's too much violence that
I pushed everybody away. Right. I grew up in violence.
I was surrounded by violence of all sorts, but also
in my home, also interpersonally, also in my partnerships, and
(19:25):
so I didn't know how to be in a healthy partnership.
And when I felt harm, I knew how to harm,
but I didn't know how to walk in a healthy way.
And so in one of the processes, my elder said,
you know, it's time to undo those agreements so that
(19:46):
you can make new agreements with yourself. Right, And that
takes a lot, and it's painful because I have to
walk through the trajectory of my life and think it,
thank you, thank you for this, acknowledge, name it, think it,
and say I let go of this because I need
(20:07):
to make a new agreement to step onto something new.
And only when I've gone through that and I have
my own boundaries and I have my own agreements. Can
I start a process with someone else? Mm, Because then
I can advocate for myself. Then I know where my
where the wounds are. Where I could say, I it's
(20:29):
it's about having autonomy, creating autonomy individually and then with
the person, then with your community. Right. And this is
when I say healing, accountability repair doesn't happen in isolation.
It it happens with your community. It happens with those
(20:52):
around you. And I can say that that is the
scariest thing I could have heard it twenty years ago,
because I would be like, that's bullshit. Now I could
cuss it out loud. It's like, I don't believe in that.
That's just you're gonna tell me to come out and
tell everybody all my you know, wrongdoings, all the things
(21:15):
I participated in. I was not a good person, you know.
I have my own story. I have not been this
wonderful human being you see today.
Speaker 4 (21:25):
That's still flawed.
Speaker 5 (21:27):
Right. I was hurt, and I also hurt. I was
also violent, right, And it's revisiting that to acknowledge, thank it,
and then move into something new and that and transmuting
and transforming and that's what I tried to create in
those containers. And it's not something that I try to create.
(21:50):
It's something that I'm bringing and weaving with the community,
with the support of my community, but the support of
my elders, with the support my ancestors, with the support
of my elders and those who teach me. And it's
continuous work. Right, It is not easy, but it's a commitment.
(22:13):
And that's what I ask, right, if you want to
go through this process, it's a commitment, But make this
commitment for you.
Speaker 3 (22:24):
You said a lot of powerful stuff there. So I
just want to sit on the medicine for a minute
because the way that you framed it was the commitment,
but the acknowledgment, but then also the thinking of the
experiences to allow you to form new agreements with yourself.
So therefore you can have a different agreement and relationship
(22:45):
with whoever. Maybe it is a personal harm, but maybe
it's just your partner, your child, your friend, your colleague,
what have you. And so I just want to thank
you because you did define you did define it in
your lived experience. So Ozzie, you know, I want to
ask you this question of you know, we've We've spent
(23:08):
a lot of time in the last couple of decades.
You know, people use all these words abolition, accountability, and
we have helped reduce a system that was designed to
incarcerate and destroy a lot of us, and those of
us have had contact with the criminal legal system. You know,
(23:30):
you go in there, you do your time, then come out.
But in this moment in time, there is no room.
It seems like for hey, what I did ten years ago,
what I did twenty years ago. Yes, I acknowledge that,
and I did that, but now this is where I'm at,
this is my new agreement with myself and others. How
do you how do you have those tough conversations with
(23:51):
men that may have done harm in the past but
aren't harming now, that are wanting to be like, hey,
I'm going to own this, and part of the owning
is getting defensive when someone is triggered, like to your point,
like I did that, and I need to I need
to own that energy and that that emotion. But what
do you tell men that are trying to navigate this
moment in time?
Speaker 6 (24:13):
You know, as the marist was sharing in this conversation,
what's coming to mind? Even with Your question is that
to do this work to repair relationships takes a lot
of courage.
Speaker 7 (24:25):
Takes a lot of courage.
Speaker 6 (24:27):
How many of us here are willing to unobsorb mistakes,
are willing to face the people that we hurt, possibly
stand in the presence and witness a heartbreak. So it
requires a lot of courage, right and also recognizing that,
you know, the man that I am today, the man
that you see here right now, was not always a
(24:48):
man that I was. You know the people that you
need thirty years ago, twenty something years ago.
Speaker 7 (24:54):
And I've hurt people.
Speaker 6 (24:56):
I've hurt people, and I can tell you that I've
done repair work and I've had to sit and own
my shit, and I've had people tell me things that
didn't sen well with me and how I failed as
a husband, I failed as a man, I failed as
a father.
Speaker 7 (25:13):
You got to own it.
Speaker 6 (25:16):
But I also see the blessings of doing the work
that I'm in a much better place to be patient
with my children, to be more respectful and more nurturing
in my relationships.
Speaker 7 (25:28):
And that is the benefit.
Speaker 6 (25:31):
Not just for my children, but I'm a grandfather, for
my grandchildren, for my future relationships, and it's a commitment
for myself to do better and to surround myself by
people that are going to support me to do better,
and at the same time welcoming people to check me
right and hopefully they do that in a loving and
caring way to support me and being accountable but requires
(25:54):
a lot of courage.
Speaker 3 (25:57):
I just want to honor your bravery right now in
this moment, and your courage and your tears when your
eyes water, because it takes a lot for a man
to say I committed harm, and I wasn't the best father,
and I wasn't the best partner, husband, what have you.
(26:18):
So I want to say I received those tears because
it helps me because if we don't see it, we
don't think it's possible. You know, like this is possibility.
So I just want to really honor you and thank
you for that. In terms of this work, it's it's
like it's it's it's what am I trying to share
(26:41):
right now. It's it's interesting work because it's really heavy work.
But I also find lightness in you all, and I
don't think we talked about it enough.
Speaker 5 (26:49):
Right.
Speaker 3 (26:49):
Yes, it is courageous, but also I know, like I've
been co hosting a men's circle every other week with
yancey comings from hands in the soil. And it is heavy,
but I either the lightest, and I don't think we
I don't have the language to articulate it, but it's
if I'm like on plant medicine without being on plant medicine,
(27:10):
because we are one, because.
Speaker 1 (27:12):
We're letting it all go.
Speaker 3 (27:15):
And I wonder if you could speak about that sense
of community that you're building with survivors and with others
at your job. But also because sometimes I think my
own cousins and myself, like I was afraid to do
this work because I didn't want to be all on
the mess all day.
Speaker 1 (27:32):
But I have to beget in it.
Speaker 3 (27:34):
But there's another side to it, you see what I'm saying,
Like you just mentioned something like you're not the same
man that you were twenty seven thirty years ago, but
the man now is happy, or I would assume we're
healthier and happier. But there is another side to this,
if that makes sense. So I wonder if the two
of you can share how you find the joy in
(27:54):
the work.
Speaker 5 (27:57):
Well, I'm would say I believe it laughter medicine and
enjoy is resistance. And I feel like sometimes we get
too caught on, like oh, this is so serious, but
like if we can't laugh, you know, if we can't
bring all those elements of our humanity, I can't be
all like oh my god. It feels like you know,
(28:21):
no hate on church or anything, but like I'm not
really just in that sense, but it's like it feels like, oh,
it has to be so serious and it has to
be in this and it has to be and it's
like no, like one of my love languages is bullshitting,
and like I will I will talk all sorts of
shit with my partner and like we will bond over that.
And it's like even you know my my co madres,
(28:43):
you know my collective, It's like there's seriousness, there's ceremony,
and there's laughter, and there has.
Speaker 4 (28:50):
To be joy.
Speaker 5 (28:51):
There has to be joy because then what are we doing?
You know, life, Life is meant to be lived. Yes,
there are serious there's a time and place for everything,
but you also in this emobimienthal right and all that movement,
there's gotta be laughter. There's gotta be joy. It's like,
oh I missed up, Okay, cool, I missed up. Let
(29:15):
me laugh about it a little bit and then let me,
you know, hold me through it.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
Right.
Speaker 5 (29:21):
So if if in circles, right, it's also you say, oh,
I feel lighter, and I you know what came to
my mind?
Speaker 4 (29:28):
Sport right.
Speaker 5 (29:33):
Everybody's energy, the exchanges and that's the power of community.
That's the power of being held and sitting in circle
and sharing and listening. Right, I always share like it's
your time, take your time, take your space, whether it's
verbal or non verbal, but take that time and take
(29:54):
that space because we're not always given that time. We're
always told shut up, don't molah blah blah blah, this,
don't you know, as a woman of color, as a
queer woman, and it's just growing up in my family.
It's just there's this rigidity that I still carry that
(30:15):
don't put me to shame, don't say anything, you know.
And so it feels liberating to be in a circle.
And and like, you know, when you acknowledge Ozzie's feelings,
it's just like you're helping him carry that, right, you're
helping and you're honoring those tears. And that's what we
(30:36):
do in spaces. We honor it because now you're allowing
us and you're giving us permission to also shed our tears.
And when we hear stories, it's always owed me too. Oh,
I carry a similar story. And sometimes there's just people
listening and they're not able to speak yet, but they
(30:56):
walk like, Okay, I'm not alone. And to the point
of you keep coming. If you keep showing long enough,
you will get to a point where you will feel
brave enough to say something. And it's a space where
it's not about perfection. It's a place where you're welcome
(31:16):
to be messy and who you are and make mistakes
and say the wrong thing and not be politically correct.
But we're gonna laugh about it. But then like, hey,
let's talk about how we can you know, shift the
way we speak about this. Right. That's where the invitation
to hold each other accountable right, And it's also a
(31:41):
place where you know that healing comes through right. Not
too long ago, to promot some of them, I trained
them in circle keeping. And I don't say I trained
because I like to call it compartment because I'm not
(32:01):
a keeper of these things and these are part of
our culture. So I try to be mindful. And these
two promo TOAs go to La Posada and they're there
every Monday, and so they invited me this last International
Women's Day, they were it was lining up with their
anniversary of the circles and that and this the Senora,
(32:26):
uh you know, third age older. She was like, we're
so grateful this space is happening and shifting everything for us.
Now we talk and now we're not isolated. Now we
invite each other. And I had to hold back tears
because then she shares it was I was carrying this
(32:46):
story for decades of my life, over sixty years, and
I carried the story that I couldn't share with anybody,
and I felt so much shame and this is what
happened to me, you know, And I share this with Honor.
Any story I share, I share with Honor. Her husband
(33:07):
would make her play Russian Roulette whenever won, and she
carried this uh these Violence Act, and she took onto
herself to carry that as her shame, as if she
did that, and she's like I was never She's like,
I've gotten help everywhere I've gone, everywhere I've done my work,
(33:31):
But it wasn't until I stepped into these circles that
I could share that and liberate myself I've carried that
story sixty five years and it wasn't until these circles
that I could finally let it go. And I couldn't,
you know, break down and hold her, which is what
(33:52):
I wanted to do, because I have to honor you know,
their their space, and honor her and let her stand
in that power and just witness. There is a power
in witnessing, and that is the purpose. I also believe
of these circles, of these processes, to be witnessed is healing.
To be heard is healing. And so we walk away
(34:15):
a little bit lighter, even though we've had heavy topics.
You walk away a little bit freer and a little
bit more. You know, I don't know how to say it,
but like connected to your.
Speaker 1 (34:33):
Connected to you, and connected to others, which is what it.
Speaker 5 (34:37):
Is, which is the medicine exactly.
Speaker 1 (34:41):
Has any last stoughts you're thinking.
Speaker 6 (34:43):
Yeah, I just want to reinforce how you know the
the man has mentioned that, you know, laughter's medicine.
Speaker 7 (34:49):
Seek it out.
Speaker 6 (34:51):
You know, if if you know me, and you know
me personally, you know that I'm a jokester and I
will tell people.
Speaker 7 (34:58):
I gotta laugh at how I got here today.
Speaker 6 (35:00):
Because of all of this stuff that has happened in
my life and all this tragedy and trauma, that's some
shit that sometimes you gotta laugh at all.
Speaker 7 (35:08):
Even when I get in trouble, I still laugh.
Speaker 5 (35:10):
Uh.
Speaker 6 (35:10):
And I say that to say that if you know
me and you know how much I joke around, that
that's the equivalent of the trauma that I've carried, you know,
so much so that I gotta joke every day. It
make people laugh, so they can make me laugh. But
I think that compassion is shared suffering. And when you're
(35:34):
able to do that and un burden yourself and teach yourself,
to learn to live in the let go h and
to work your story to the extent where there's parts
of my story that I'm able to leave behind now
I no longer have to carry that. I learned the
lesson and I'm going to share those lessons now, and
not so much the hurt and the pain of my experiences,
but how I've been able to manifest that in the
(35:55):
healing way that allows me to be present.
Speaker 7 (35:58):
And you know these.
Speaker 6 (35:59):
Are not my words, these are my elder's words, my
ancestors words, you know, Mistor Jerry that talks about that
in order for blessings to come in, as you got
to create space, you gotta let some things go so
that we can really.
Speaker 7 (36:12):
Embrace the joy in the laughter.
Speaker 6 (36:15):
And when we're able to model that for other people,
I think that inspires hope.
Speaker 7 (36:20):
Right, you said it yourself, I could see it. How
is it you got there?
Speaker 6 (36:24):
What can I learn from what you've done in your
journey that can support me in mind? So so the
saying goes and not the same, but the motto is,
if I can walk with you, then let me connect
you to somebody who can.
Speaker 1 (36:37):
Right closing closing thoughts, you feel lighter?
Speaker 5 (36:51):
I do. I feel joy, I feel honored. I'm always
honored when anyone decides to share their story. I'm always
honored to be part of these processes. I'm always honored to,
you know, walk along with Ozzie and those at the
center with the moheads. You know, they give me purpose.
(37:14):
You know, I never thought i'd live to be over
twenty five, and so now that I'm older and I'm like, oh, man,
like I have something to offer, you know, let me
and you know, like Alsie said, you know, like something's
got to come from all these lessons and so now
feeling like that's my purpose, That's what I'm here for.
(37:38):
And I'm not the only one, right, I'm not the
only one. Closing words was when we were talking about earlier,
is that this doesn't happen.
Speaker 4 (37:53):
In public all the time.
Speaker 5 (37:55):
Healing the work we do, the work I've done in
other community space, the work I've done holding community, helping
them heal. It's not something we go on advertising, right.
It's because we're honoring the individuals, We're honoring the families,
we're honoring the community.
Speaker 6 (38:19):
You know.
Speaker 5 (38:21):
One thing that Barbara had mentioned is like, oh, everybody
wants to react when it's big profile cases, but at
the agency, we're working every day with every day community members.
And it's just that a lot of us don't know
that the services are there, that the people are there,
(38:44):
that we are there, you know. And I'm guilty of
not putting myself out there, you know, And that's that's
what I gotta step into. But the work is being
done by many people, and it's not being done in isolation,
and it's being done despite of all the systemic oppression
(39:09):
and in spite of all the political attacks on our
communities in spite of everything, we show up and we're there.
You know, I'm blessed that Barbara is a big supporter
and her heart is what led me there too. Right,
I was like, oh, I don't want to go back
(39:30):
and work into a nonprofit. You know, my heart got
broken iron a prophet at a young age where I
was all like thinking all these things idealistic. But I
chose to go there. And I chose to go there
because of the people, because of the work that they do.
It was one of the first communities I came to
into this country as a child, and so it it
(39:54):
held a lot of nostalgia and a lot of love.
And because there is support, I could do the work
that I do right. And it again not in isolation,
but as a collective. And so I urge those that
are doing this work to come out and share the
(40:16):
work you're doing. And I urge you to knock on
every door and knock on every window because there's so
many community members doing the work outside of agencies and
in agencies. I urged you to ask right and another
(40:38):
that's another reason why I. I also did that because
growing up, once I was in the center, all these
memories got triggered like I wish my mom, I wish
my dad knew these services were here. I wish they knew.
I didn't know either, right, And it's it's a let's
become visible because we are doing the work, and let's
(41:01):
step out and reach out because you know, as human
and flawed as we are, as limited we are, systemically,
we are going to figure something out, right. And and
that's what I see at the East LA Women's Center,
Like they're not joking, like community. These women will come
even if they don't are not seeking services, and they've
(41:23):
been there before. Can I just hang out here for
a bit? Can I just come say hi? They they
need that connection, you know. And and that's something I
love about that center is that there's so much heart,
there's so much passion, there's so much willingness, and and
all those with money out there come invest because we
are doing the work, you know. Like I know I
(41:46):
live in a capitalistic society, but there's I could tell
you all my coworkers, every woman I work with, all
the promotas, you don't understand.
Speaker 4 (41:55):
These they're the real heroes.
Speaker 5 (41:57):
They're the ones on the ground, they're the ones doing work.
I I'm like I can't do that, you know, so
come and invest to come in. You've got those deep pockets,
Come here and help me out because I need plantitas,
I need you know, I need everything. Our men, women, children,
(42:20):
our community deserve this are our communities are sacred and
we are sacred. And that's all.
Speaker 3 (42:30):
And that's how it's the perfect way to uh. To
conclude and end before I share some words, what's the
website where those with the DP pockets can go to?
Speaker 1 (42:42):
What is it?
Speaker 5 (42:43):
W w W dot e l a w c dot org.
You know, restorative practices there need some help with you know, budgets.
I like to bring in practitioners, community. I love to
invest in community, and so come and invest our fifty
years are coming. I'm excited to be part of it
(43:07):
and help us get through fifty more.
Speaker 1 (43:10):
Exactly. I wanted to make sure or did you want
to say something.
Speaker 7 (43:14):
Yeah, yeah, I'd like that.
Speaker 6 (43:15):
Yeah, national composits work, none of but if I could.
Speaker 1 (43:21):
What's a website? Now?
Speaker 6 (43:23):
And with your permission, just to add some final thoughts
and thanking somebody.
Speaker 7 (43:28):
Just to say that, you know, all of us have.
Speaker 6 (43:31):
The ability to choose what we carry forward in our
lives and I think it's a it's a collective responsibility
to identify what is the good and the healthy things
that have supported us in our families that we want
to carry forward, and then what are the things that
we no longer need? Right, lastly, those of us that
do this work, let's take care of ourselves. You know,
(43:55):
if you're if you're like us, if you're one of
my people's, we give and we give and we give
till there's nothing much to give when we get home,
and our families deserve more than our leftovers.
Speaker 7 (44:06):
Right.
Speaker 6 (44:07):
We give our communities a lot of patience, empathy, compassion, love, advocacy,
you name it. And then we get home and our
children get none. Let's be gentle with ourselves. Let's take
care of ourselves.
Speaker 5 (44:20):
Beautiful, Yeah at all? Can we shake it off? Now?
Speaker 1 (44:28):
Yeah we can't.
Speaker 3 (44:29):
Well, well, let's just wrap this segment by just me
just saying thank you. I really wanted at least this
segment to end the way it did, which is just
showing like even if you're listening, you're gonna feel your heartbeat,
(44:49):
and then once you feel that heartbeat, you're gonna be like, WHOA,
that is my heartbeat? And you mentioned something about mirrors,
and like, we are a mirror reflection.
Speaker 1 (44:58):
So if someone feels as.
Speaker 3 (45:00):
If there's no way that I could change, you're mirroring
back to them. Actually you can.
Speaker 1 (45:06):
Or if there's someone that's thinking there's nowhere for me
to go, you just mentioned two places where you could go.
Speaker 3 (45:12):
Or if there's someone saying I don't want to speak yet,
you're inviting them into the power of our stories. Because
what I've realized, the more that we tell our individual stories,
the more universal they are. And that's the medicine, that's
the power. And the society has trying to beat our
stories out of us so much. We feel a certain
(45:33):
way about telling our stories, but you guys are creating
the sacred space for the storytelling to happen, and that's
the entry point. And so I just really wanted to
say thank you, because on the macro level, it is
so deep and it seems daunting, and even driving over
(45:54):
here to UCLA was like, man, what am I really
going to offer? And I feel like you all and
and Jerry and Barbara has offered so much and will
continue and we're you all are just four people of
a whole community of folks doing this work like you
mentioned earlier, some known, some unknown, and so I just
want to just thank you your ancestors, your work, your children,
(46:18):
your partners for allowing you to be here.
Speaker 1 (46:20):
Thank you for the reminder to rest, to come fully charged.
Speaker 3 (46:23):
For that our own children don't take the patterns that
allow us to be the way we were.
Speaker 1 (46:29):
And so I'll leave with.
Speaker 3 (46:31):
The word love. I'll leave with the word love because
at the end of the day, that's all, that's all
that matters. And I know we're gonna end really quickly,
just with the circle so we can actually just look
at each other in the eye because that's where the
mirrors are. But I just really humbly, I just want
(46:54):
to say thank you. You guys oftentimes don't get acknowledged
the way you should. You don't get paid the way
you should, you don't get centered the way you should.
Speaker 1 (47:03):
People talk about public safety or all this stuff.
Speaker 3 (47:05):
So this is public safety, you know what I'm saying,
Like this is like the front lines, and I just
want you to know that I see you, I love you,
I honor you for what you do. And please, if
you can go back to your places of work and
give the love and acknowledgment from this space to all.
Speaker 1 (47:24):
Those folks, so thank you very much, thank you.
Speaker 3 (47:29):
Sacred Lessons is a production my Heart's Michael through our
podcast network, Sacred Lessons Media.
Speaker 7 (47:34):
And The Princeville.
Speaker 3 (47:36):
For more of your favorite shows, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Warning.
Speaker 2 (00:01):
This episode discusses rape and sexual violence. If you or
someone you know requires support, please call the East Los
Angeles Woman's Centers twenty four to seven by lingual hotline
at eight hundred five eight five six two three one.
Speaker 3 (00:17):
What are the cycles fathers passed down that suns they're
left to yield?
Speaker 1 (00:23):
What if being a.
Speaker 3 (00:24):
Man was about holding it all together? I've and learning
how to let go. This is a space where that
speak the truth and find the power to heal and transform.
I'm Mike Dela Rocha. Welcome to Sacred Lessons. If we're honest,
many of us are raised in environments where certain things
were never talked about, and what isn't talked about doesn't disappear,
(00:46):
it gets carried. Welcome to Sacred Lessons on Mike Dela Rocha.
This is the second in the series that's centering a
conversation on sexual violence. Today, we're going to center two
practitioners to in credit people doing the work day in
and day out, to individuals sitting with survivors, working with women,
men and gender non conforming people, and holding sacred space
(01:10):
for transformation in real time. We're joined by Damadis Vasquez,
a practitioner from the East LA Women's Center who's work
directly supports survivors, and Nasie Cruz, who leads men's work
at the East LA Women's Center and is also part
of the National Combatitis Network. One thing I really wanted
to emphasize is this is a sacred conversation, and I
(01:31):
hope that it's it's just open we were talking earlier,
because oftentimes people love to see the car crash, but
they don't want to see the car being repaired. And
in this moment, when there's a lot of fire, I
was really excited for this conversation because there is also
light around the darkness, and there's a lot of healing
(01:54):
and incredible work going on.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
And so I wanted to start with you just.
Speaker 3 (01:59):
You know, what does work look like with survivors, not
just in theory, but in practice, Like what does it
look like in terms of the work that you've been
doing for so long?
Speaker 4 (02:11):
What does it look like in practice?
Speaker 1 (02:13):
It is.
Speaker 5 (02:16):
I'm going to say it's painful work. I'm going to
say it's dirty, messy, but also sacred, and all those
are sacred. So all this work from the way I practice,
the way I bring it in the way I weave
it in with you know, guidance of my elders, my ancestors,
(02:38):
through my own lived experiences is through circles when we
sit in community, when we eliminate the hierarchies or try
because we are part of a system, and so it's
humanizing and it is reminding us that we are secret.
Because we are not told we are sacred, we have
(03:01):
a hard time. And I say we collectively as human beings,
as women, men, gender non conforming folks, we are never
told we're sacred, and we feel like it's something that
we need to achieve right. And so theory and practice
are different things. One of my elders says, Emuel Rivera says,
(03:24):
there are those who know how to build a fire
and those who read about building a fire right, and
so I can know all the technicalities, but once you
get there, you know, nothing lines up. And I say
that from experience as a fire keeper as well. Uh,
there's many ways to make a fire right. But I
(03:47):
didn't read it in the book. You know, my father
taught me, my mother taught me. I know that my
grandmother's you know, learned, and so I carry that information
from my ancestors and once you start in the action,
then you can get dirty and then you figure it
(04:08):
out and they're satisfaction. But you gotta get dirty, you
gotta try. So healing is a process. Another thing about
healing is that healing doesn't happen in isolation. Right, there
is an invitation. We have to be ready. We're not
always ready. But life, like you said, there's a crash.
(04:32):
How did that crash happen? Right, and we focus on
it happened. We don't talk about what happened with the conditions,
and we don't talk about the impact. So when I
talk about harm and when I work with communities, I
don't center it on and the crash, right, insurance comes in.
(04:54):
Everything comes in, and she did it, they did it,
I waitness. I don't want to tell you. And there's
always punishment guilty. Who pays who doesn't? Right now, my
covered do I have insurance? So think about that as
human beings, and it's like, let's step away from that
(05:14):
and let's talk about the impact. Right, those who have
caused harm are impacted and those who experience harm are impacted.
So it's recentering it to let's talk about how you
were impacted regardless of our involvement, because then we can
get to a point of understanding reflection. But also then
(05:38):
we can get to compassion. And if I can find
that compassion and empathy within that reflection, then you could
be ready to be compassionate and empathetic to hear somebody
else right, And I could get carried away with metaphors.
Speaker 1 (05:58):
So that's a good one.
Speaker 5 (06:00):
Get back to me. I invite you to center me
in my thoughts.
Speaker 3 (06:07):
No, no, thank you, Ozzie. Just to go off of that.
It's like the dynamic duel. This is like my real
Marvel superheroes right here. You know you've been doing You've
been holding space sell women center with the men and
the previous conversation talking about the macro and you're centering
(06:28):
like talking about the impact on all of us, because
the impact isn't one way, it's always what have you
learned in terms of your work with men at the
center and just with the Compiler's network and everything.
Speaker 6 (06:42):
Well, appreciate the opportunity and the invitation to be able
to share what I've learned and what has helped me, Mike,
But I have to start off by acknowledging all of
the women who have led this work to create awareness,
who have had to carry the burden of the work,
the responsibility, the sacrifices, both the known sacrifices and the
(07:07):
unknown sacrifices that have now created pathways for us and
men to support this work.
Speaker 7 (07:15):
What I've come to learn in my process.
Speaker 6 (07:17):
And my work with working with men is that there's
not enough awareness as to how do we heal men.
We all know that many of us were raised in
a certain way where we weren't allowed to to feel,
we weren't allowed to touch our emoistions.
Speaker 7 (07:33):
And specifically in my work, I've come to learn.
Speaker 6 (07:37):
That many of us men who were once boys, no
one ever apologized to us. You know, somebody hurt us
and nobody said I'm sorry, and nobody took accountability, and
nobody took responsibility.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
Uh.
Speaker 6 (07:50):
And in that process, boys will eventually grow up to
become young men that will grow up to become men,
and if they choose to become family men. Sometimes that
manifestation doesn't allow us to apologize to someone when we've
hurt them.
Speaker 7 (08:05):
And we all know and recognize that.
Speaker 6 (08:08):
It is often the people that we hurt that we
once promised we weren't hurt and so what I've come
to learn through this work is to acknowledge that we
were hurt too, right, that sometimes those of us that
have inflicted harm or pain on others have also been
on the receiving end of that. And it doesn't negate it,
it doesn't minimize that, but it's a reality that oftentimes
(08:29):
we don't acknowledge. And so in this process of working
with men and working with fathers, it starts to at
the root cause, Right where do we learn that if
we hurt somebody, that we don't have a responsibility within
that right And so if we can acknowledge it, acknowledging
comes with the level of responsibility, right awareness. If you
(08:50):
didn't know what, you didn't know, but guess what now
you know? And if you know, then there's a level
of responsibility that if we do something to hurt somebody,
they would claim to say that we love and we
really want them to get closer to us and want
to strengthen that relationship. Well the member, Maybe it requires
an apology, It requires reflection and understanding that the impact
(09:11):
of the hurts may not allow people to forgive you.
You know that sometimes the hurt so it's so profound
it's so deep, it's so hurtful, that nobody wants to
hear your apology. Right, But when we work with families,
particularly where we're working with men who are fathers, you know,
we center on what's what's best for the child, right,
(09:33):
how do we strengthen that relationship, how do we as
men are seen by our sons and our daughters and
our families and our nieces and our nephews saying that
we're sorry, and that sorry means that it's not going
to happen again, or that we're going to do our
best to ensure that it doesn't happen again, and if
it does, we're gonna we're gonna put forth effort to
make that right. But recognizing that sometimes the impact of
(09:57):
what we do when we hurt people, people may not
be open to receiving or to hearing from us.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
That's powerful.
Speaker 3 (10:06):
Thank you well for both of you and saying that
there's there's a restorative process for those that don't know
what that looks like or feels like. Can you at
least just describe what that looks like, because you know,
as you shared, there may be a point where someone
doesn't want to hear that.
Speaker 1 (10:27):
But that's part of a process that you guys are.
Speaker 3 (10:29):
Doing, and you know we're in a circle that is
also a process. But I wonder if you could just
share a little bit of light for those that don't know, Like, Okay,
what does that look like? If I wanted to step
into something like.
Speaker 6 (10:42):
That, Well, here we are, I'll share, and then you know,
welcome you to the maist to share where you need to.
Part of the process always starts by an invitation. When
we talk about repairing harm, it's not something that needs
(11:02):
to be forced. It's not something that you force somebody
to do, but something that someone has to be willing
to do right. And so it starts there, are you
willing to do the work right? And of course recognizing that,
as I mentioned before, the impact that's that harm, And
in spite of someone not willing to hear you out
and wanting to do that work, can we do that.
Speaker 7 (11:21):
Work with you?
Speaker 6 (11:23):
You know, I think that one of the minimal measurements
of success in this work is a commitment to not
to continue to perpetuate harm. So a person doesn't want
to hear you because they've been hurt by you, they
hold animosity, resentment, whatever that is but can we do
the work so that you begin to recognize how do
you hurt people? Right, the impact that had on your
children and your spouse and your significant other, and ensuring
(11:46):
that if you really truly love these people, is that
you will eventually get to a place in which we
can support you by walking with you, by creating awareness,
by thinking things through, by coaching you to a place
where you can begin to heal for yourself, because many
of us will carry the burden of I hurt somebody
(12:07):
so much so that uh, I.
Speaker 7 (12:09):
Carry it with me.
Speaker 6 (12:11):
You know, in one of your previous segments you mentioned
about the hurt that we carry and how that creates
disease in our bodies. And uh, part of the heating
is also to forgive ourselves for having hurt someone.
Speaker 3 (12:23):
Yeah, you're gonna have to repeat the question, No, just
what is what does the actual process look like when
you're when you're sitting in that circle, when someone comes
to you that's either been harmed or has harmed. You know,
we're saying that it's it's a it's a it's a
personal acknowledgment. I need to do something different, And then
(12:45):
the invitation is like, well, you're invited in. There's there's
so many men that I come across, even on this podcast,
that I have done harm And when they tell me,
they think, the automatic response is I'm going to cancel them.
And when I don't cancel them and I listen, they
start crying because they're not used to that. And then
(13:08):
this society is like, because yes, there is there is
rage that's justified. But then like the invitation and again
this is we were talking about this earlier. Is not
public work, so then we don't see but that one
on one invitation kind of what Jerry was talking about.
We're inviting men in. But once they're invited in, what
(13:28):
does it look like or the with the women that
are suffering from or even the men.
Speaker 5 (13:33):
Yeah, so working with you know, within this binary of
men and women, right, every single man that.
Speaker 4 (13:42):
I've worked with, it all starts with this.
Speaker 5 (13:47):
Right letting go?
Speaker 4 (13:50):
Is that pressure pot?
Speaker 5 (13:51):
Right? I don't think we stop to think the pressures
men carry. Yes, because of the systemic culture rual, you know, familial.
Speaker 4 (14:03):
But there always has to start with.
Speaker 5 (14:04):
On this out and it's not something that hey come here,
you know, it's just like hey, tell me your story.
It's in the way I practice it is in storytelling. Right.
Part of our cultural practices, our ancestral practices, is storytelling.
And so let me know what happened, let me get
(14:27):
to know you right that you know they talk about,
but it never fails that there's this need to just
let go and cry. And I was like, every man
I've sat with just cries and needs to be held
in that and just allow them to be, just allow
(14:47):
them to say, Hey, this is what I feel, this
is what I go through. I feel like they don't
have spaces to feel, spaces to to release because again,
all the pressures, right, and that also goes for women,
all the pressures and holding it together, especially survivors, they
(15:09):
have to appear as a pillar in their home. Right.
Most of the times they don't have that support, that
duality working together, and so they have to be the pillars.
They're the educators, they're the breadwinners. And their families and
so our families all look different and we're all in
(15:29):
different stages when they come in to us, and so
where are they, how are they what's happening? And so
it's tell me your story and I'll hold you through it,
and being transparent. I'm here to hold and create that
container for you. I'm here to support you. You're gonna
(15:52):
you're gonna like how sweet I can be, but then
you're gonna hate me when we come through a point
of reflection and pushing right. And I'm always clear with
every person I work with, like, yes, I would listen.
Speaker 4 (16:05):
But we have to walk together.
Speaker 5 (16:09):
To get through that process of seeing ourselves the mirror
work right.
Speaker 1 (16:15):
And So.
Speaker 5 (16:18):
Everybody talks about these big words and terms accountability, repair,
and I feel like it gets bogged down with academia,
it gets bogged down with how it becomes a trend. Right.
It's like, oh, we're all working on accountability, we're all
working on repair, but what does what does it really mean?
(16:38):
And why can't we define it right? And I'm okay
with not defining it because accountability looks different for everybody.
Accountability is something you choose right. Yes, there's a place
for apologies, there's a place for that if people choose
(16:59):
it right. I think there's so much pressure around that,
but there's not enough conversations being had about how do
we get to accountability and repair. Sometimes we're like, oh, yeah,
I took accountability, it's already done. I can move on,
but we haven't repaired. We haven't talked about what do
(17:19):
I need? What does it look like? And a lot
of the work I've been building at the East LA
Women's Center and with all our community is helping survivors
identify what is accountability to you naming it. A lot
of people have a hard time saying.
Speaker 4 (17:41):
You could tell them.
Speaker 5 (17:42):
They could tell you the story how they were hurt,
well points everything in detail, but what do you need?
Speaker 4 (17:50):
And it's crickets, right.
Speaker 5 (17:53):
What do you need?
Speaker 4 (17:55):
How does that look like?
Speaker 5 (17:58):
And then what I found is that nobody men, women, children, gender,
and nobody knows how to say identify clearly. And I
don't want to say nobody, but the majority that are
going through these processes, it's like, I don't know, right,
it could be immediate stop of the harm, Yes we could,
(18:21):
you know, we could work on that, like Ossie said,
the minimum stop perpetuating harm, right, and what we can
do taking the steps And I always get to a
part of the process where we talk about agreements, right,
the agreements and not just agreements between person or person,
(18:41):
but the agreements you've made to yourself. Right. And this
is something I learned through going through my own process, right,
my other's like, we make agreements to survive. So the
agreements that I held as a child to help me survive,
maybe help me get through my teens, maybe help me
(19:02):
get through my adulthood. But then I'm finding myself and
my story is in isolation. There's too much violence that
I pushed everybody away. Right. I grew up in violence.
I was surrounded by violence of all sorts, but also
in my home, also interpersonally, also in my partnerships, and
(19:25):
so I didn't know how to be in a healthy partnership.
And when I felt harm, I knew how to harm,
but I didn't know how to walk in a healthy way.
And so in one of the processes, my elder said,
you know, it's time to undo those agreements so that
(19:46):
you can make new agreements with yourself. Right, And that
takes a lot, and it's painful because I have to
walk through the trajectory of my life and think it,
thank you, thank you for this, acknowledge, name it, think it,
and say I let go of this because I need
(20:07):
to make a new agreement to step onto something new.
And only when I've gone through that and I have
my own boundaries and I have my own agreements. Can
I start a process with someone else? Mm, Because then
I can advocate for myself. Then I know where my
where the wounds are. Where I could say, I it's
(20:29):
it's about having autonomy, creating autonomy individually and then with
the person, then with your community. Right. And this is
when I say healing, accountability repair doesn't happen in isolation.
It it happens with your community. It happens with those
(20:52):
around you. And I can say that that is the
scariest thing I could have heard it twenty years ago,
because I would be like, that's bullshit. Now I could
cuss it out loud. It's like, I don't believe in that.
That's just you're gonna tell me to come out and
tell everybody all my you know, wrongdoings, all the things
(21:15):
I participated in. I was not a good person, you know.
I have my own story. I have not been this
wonderful human being you see today.
Speaker 4 (21:25):
That's still flawed.
Speaker 5 (21:27):
Right. I was hurt, and I also hurt. I was
also violent, right, And it's revisiting that to acknowledge, thank it,
and then move into something new and that and transmuting
and transforming and that's what I tried to create in
those containers. And it's not something that I try to create.
(21:50):
It's something that I'm bringing and weaving with the community,
with the support of my community, but the support of
my elders, with the support my ancestors, with the support
of my elders and those who teach me. And it's
continuous work. Right, It is not easy, but it's a commitment.
(22:13):
And that's what I ask, right, if you want to
go through this process, it's a commitment, But make this
commitment for you.
Speaker 3 (22:24):
You said a lot of powerful stuff there. So I
just want to sit on the medicine for a minute
because the way that you framed it was the commitment,
but the acknowledgment, but then also the thinking of the
experiences to allow you to form new agreements with yourself.
So therefore you can have a different agreement and relationship
(22:45):
with whoever. Maybe it is a personal harm, but maybe
it's just your partner, your child, your friend, your colleague,
what have you. And so I just want to thank
you because you did define you did define it in
your lived experience. So Ozzie, you know, I want to
ask you this question of you know, we've We've spent
(23:08):
a lot of time in the last couple of decades.
You know, people use all these words abolition, accountability, and
we have helped reduce a system that was designed to
incarcerate and destroy a lot of us, and those of
us have had contact with the criminal legal system. You know,
(23:30):
you go in there, you do your time, then come out.
But in this moment in time, there is no room.
It seems like for hey, what I did ten years ago,
what I did twenty years ago. Yes, I acknowledge that,
and I did that, but now this is where I'm at,
this is my new agreement with myself and others. How
do you how do you have those tough conversations with
(23:51):
men that may have done harm in the past but
aren't harming now, that are wanting to be like, hey,
I'm going to own this, and part of the owning
is getting defensive when someone is triggered, like to your point,
like I did that, and I need to I need
to own that energy and that that emotion. But what
do you tell men that are trying to navigate this
moment in time?
Speaker 6 (24:13):
You know, as the marist was sharing in this conversation,
what's coming to mind? Even with Your question is that
to do this work to repair relationships takes a lot
of courage.
Speaker 7 (24:25):
Takes a lot of courage.
Speaker 6 (24:27):
How many of us here are willing to unobsorb mistakes,
are willing to face the people that we hurt, possibly
stand in the presence and witness a heartbreak. So it
requires a lot of courage, right and also recognizing that,
you know, the man that I am today, the man
that you see here right now, was not always a
(24:48):
man that I was. You know the people that you
need thirty years ago, twenty something years ago.
Speaker 7 (24:54):
And I've hurt people.
Speaker 6 (24:56):
I've hurt people, and I can tell you that I've
done repair work and I've had to sit and own
my shit, and I've had people tell me things that
didn't sen well with me and how I failed as
a husband, I failed as a man, I failed as
a father.
Speaker 7 (25:13):
You got to own it.
Speaker 6 (25:16):
But I also see the blessings of doing the work
that I'm in a much better place to be patient
with my children, to be more respectful and more nurturing
in my relationships.
Speaker 7 (25:28):
And that is the benefit.
Speaker 6 (25:31):
Not just for my children, but I'm a grandfather, for
my grandchildren, for my future relationships, and it's a commitment
for myself to do better and to surround myself by
people that are going to support me to do better,
and at the same time welcoming people to check me
right and hopefully they do that in a loving and
caring way to support me and being accountable but requires
(25:54):
a lot of courage.
Speaker 3 (25:57):
I just want to honor your bravery right now in
this moment, and your courage and your tears when your
eyes water, because it takes a lot for a man
to say I committed harm, and I wasn't the best father,
and I wasn't the best partner, husband, what have you.
(26:18):
So I want to say I received those tears because
it helps me because if we don't see it, we
don't think it's possible. You know, like this is possibility.
So I just want to really honor you and thank
you for that. In terms of this work, it's it's
like it's it's it's what am I trying to share
(26:41):
right now. It's it's interesting work because it's really heavy work.
But I also find lightness in you all, and I
don't think we talked about it enough.
Speaker 5 (26:49):
Right.
Speaker 3 (26:49):
Yes, it is courageous, but also I know, like I've
been co hosting a men's circle every other week with
yancey comings from hands in the soil. And it is heavy,
but I either the lightest, and I don't think we
I don't have the language to articulate it, but it's
if I'm like on plant medicine without being on plant medicine,
(27:10):
because we are one, because.
Speaker 1 (27:12):
We're letting it all go.
Speaker 3 (27:15):
And I wonder if you could speak about that sense
of community that you're building with survivors and with others
at your job. But also because sometimes I think my
own cousins and myself, like I was afraid to do
this work because I didn't want to be all on
the mess all day.
Speaker 1 (27:32):
But I have to beget in it.
Speaker 3 (27:34):
But there's another side to it, you see what I'm saying,
Like you just mentioned something like you're not the same
man that you were twenty seven thirty years ago, but
the man now is happy, or I would assume we're
healthier and happier. But there is another side to this,
if that makes sense. So I wonder if the two
of you can share how you find the joy in
(27:54):
the work.
Speaker 5 (27:57):
Well, I'm would say I believe it laughter medicine and
enjoy is resistance. And I feel like sometimes we get
too caught on, like oh, this is so serious, but
like if we can't laugh, you know, if we can't
bring all those elements of our humanity, I can't be
all like oh my god. It feels like you know,
(28:21):
no hate on church or anything, but like I'm not
really just in that sense, but it's like it feels like, oh,
it has to be so serious and it has to
be in this and it has to be and it's
like no, like one of my love languages is bullshitting,
and like I will I will talk all sorts of
shit with my partner and like we will bond over that.
And it's like even you know my my co madres,
(28:43):
you know my collective, It's like there's seriousness, there's ceremony,
and there's laughter, and there has.
Speaker 4 (28:50):
To be joy.
Speaker 5 (28:51):
There has to be joy because then what are we doing?
You know, life, Life is meant to be lived. Yes,
there are serious there's a time and place for everything,
but you also in this emobimienthal right and all that movement,
there's gotta be laughter. There's gotta be joy. It's like,
oh I missed up, Okay, cool, I missed up. Let
(29:15):
me laugh about it a little bit and then let me,
you know, hold me through it.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
Right.
Speaker 5 (29:21):
So if if in circles, right, it's also you say, oh,
I feel lighter, and I you know what came to
my mind?
Speaker 4 (29:28):
Sport right.
Speaker 5 (29:33):
Everybody's energy, the exchanges and that's the power of community.
That's the power of being held and sitting in circle
and sharing and listening. Right, I always share like it's
your time, take your time, take your space, whether it's
verbal or non verbal, but take that time and take
(29:54):
that space because we're not always given that time. We're
always told shut up, don't molah blah blah blah, this,
don't you know, as a woman of color, as a
queer woman, and it's just growing up in my family.
It's just there's this rigidity that I still carry that
(30:15):
don't put me to shame, don't say anything, you know.
And so it feels liberating to be in a circle.
And and like, you know, when you acknowledge Ozzie's feelings,
it's just like you're helping him carry that, right, you're
helping and you're honoring those tears. And that's what we
(30:36):
do in spaces. We honor it because now you're allowing
us and you're giving us permission to also shed our tears.
And when we hear stories, it's always owed me too. Oh,
I carry a similar story. And sometimes there's just people
listening and they're not able to speak yet, but they
(30:56):
walk like, Okay, I'm not alone. And to the point
of you keep coming. If you keep showing long enough,
you will get to a point where you will feel
brave enough to say something. And it's a space where
it's not about perfection. It's a place where you're welcome
(31:16):
to be messy and who you are and make mistakes
and say the wrong thing and not be politically correct.
But we're gonna laugh about it. But then like, hey,
let's talk about how we can you know, shift the
way we speak about this. Right. That's where the invitation
to hold each other accountable right, And it's also a
(31:41):
place where you know that healing comes through right. Not
too long ago, to promot some of them, I trained
them in circle keeping. And I don't say I trained
because I like to call it compartment because I'm not
(32:01):
a keeper of these things and these are part of
our culture. So I try to be mindful. And these
two promo TOAs go to La Posada and they're there
every Monday, and so they invited me this last International
Women's Day, they were it was lining up with their
anniversary of the circles and that and this the Senora,
(32:26):
uh you know, third age older. She was like, we're
so grateful this space is happening and shifting everything for us.
Now we talk and now we're not isolated. Now we
invite each other. And I had to hold back tears
because then she shares it was I was carrying this
(32:46):
story for decades of my life, over sixty years, and
I carried the story that I couldn't share with anybody,
and I felt so much shame and this is what
happened to me, you know, And I share this with Honor.
Any story I share, I share with Honor. Her husband
(33:07):
would make her play Russian Roulette whenever won, and she
carried this uh these Violence Act, and she took onto
herself to carry that as her shame, as if she
did that, and she's like I was never She's like,
I've gotten help everywhere I've gone, everywhere I've done my work,
(33:31):
But it wasn't until I stepped into these circles that
I could share that and liberate myself I've carried that
story sixty five years and it wasn't until these circles
that I could finally let it go. And I couldn't,
you know, break down and hold her, which is what
(33:52):
I wanted to do, because I have to honor you know,
their their space, and honor her and let her stand
in that power and just witness. There is a power
in witnessing, and that is the purpose. I also believe
of these circles, of these processes, to be witnessed is healing.
To be heard is healing. And so we walk away
(34:15):
a little bit lighter, even though we've had heavy topics.
You walk away a little bit freer and a little
bit more. You know, I don't know how to say it,
but like connected to your.
Speaker 1 (34:33):
Connected to you, and connected to others, which is what it.
Speaker 5 (34:37):
Is, which is the medicine exactly.
Speaker 1 (34:41):
Has any last stoughts you're thinking.
Speaker 6 (34:43):
Yeah, I just want to reinforce how you know the
the man has mentioned that, you know, laughter's medicine.
Speaker 7 (34:49):
Seek it out.
Speaker 6 (34:51):
You know, if if you know me, and you know
me personally, you know that I'm a jokester and I
will tell people.
Speaker 7 (34:58):
I gotta laugh at how I got here today.
Speaker 6 (35:00):
Because of all of this stuff that has happened in
my life and all this tragedy and trauma, that's some
shit that sometimes you gotta laugh at all.
Speaker 7 (35:08):
Even when I get in trouble, I still laugh.
Speaker 5 (35:10):
Uh.
Speaker 6 (35:10):
And I say that to say that if you know
me and you know how much I joke around, that
that's the equivalent of the trauma that I've carried, you know,
so much so that I gotta joke every day. It
make people laugh, so they can make me laugh. But
I think that compassion is shared suffering. And when you're
(35:34):
able to do that and un burden yourself and teach yourself,
to learn to live in the let go h and
to work your story to the extent where there's parts
of my story that I'm able to leave behind now
I no longer have to carry that. I learned the
lesson and I'm going to share those lessons now, and
not so much the hurt and the pain of my experiences,
but how I've been able to manifest that in the
(35:55):
healing way that allows me to be present.
Speaker 7 (35:58):
And you know these.
Speaker 6 (35:59):
Are not my words, these are my elder's words, my
ancestors words, you know, Mistor Jerry that talks about that
in order for blessings to come in, as you got
to create space, you gotta let some things go so
that we can really.
Speaker 7 (36:12):
Embrace the joy in the laughter.
Speaker 6 (36:15):
And when we're able to model that for other people,
I think that inspires hope.
Speaker 7 (36:20):
Right, you said it yourself, I could see it. How
is it you got there?
Speaker 6 (36:24):
What can I learn from what you've done in your
journey that can support me in mind? So so the
saying goes and not the same, but the motto is,
if I can walk with you, then let me connect
you to somebody who can.
Speaker 1 (36:37):
Right closing closing thoughts, you feel lighter?
Speaker 5 (36:51):
I do. I feel joy, I feel honored. I'm always
honored when anyone decides to share their story. I'm always
honored to be part of these processes. I'm always honored to,
you know, walk along with Ozzie and those at the
center with the moheads. You know, they give me purpose.
(37:14):
You know, I never thought i'd live to be over
twenty five, and so now that I'm older and I'm like, oh, man,
like I have something to offer, you know, let me
and you know, like Alsie said, you know, like something's
got to come from all these lessons and so now
feeling like that's my purpose, That's what I'm here for.
(37:38):
And I'm not the only one, right, I'm not the
only one. Closing words was when we were talking about earlier,
is that this doesn't happen.
Speaker 4 (37:53):
In public all the time.
Speaker 5 (37:55):
Healing the work we do, the work I've done in
other community space, the work I've done holding community, helping
them heal. It's not something we go on advertising, right.
It's because we're honoring the individuals, We're honoring the families,
we're honoring the community.
Speaker 6 (38:19):
You know.
Speaker 5 (38:21):
One thing that Barbara had mentioned is like, oh, everybody
wants to react when it's big profile cases, but at
the agency, we're working every day with every day community members.
And it's just that a lot of us don't know
that the services are there, that the people are there,
(38:44):
that we are there, you know. And I'm guilty of
not putting myself out there, you know, And that's that's
what I gotta step into. But the work is being
done by many people, and it's not being done in isolation,
and it's being done despite of all the systemic oppression
(39:09):
and in spite of all the political attacks on our
communities in spite of everything, we show up and we're there.
You know, I'm blessed that Barbara is a big supporter
and her heart is what led me there too. Right,
I was like, oh, I don't want to go back
(39:30):
and work into a nonprofit. You know, my heart got
broken iron a prophet at a young age where I
was all like thinking all these things idealistic. But I
chose to go there. And I chose to go there
because of the people, because of the work that they do.
It was one of the first communities I came to
into this country as a child, and so it it
(39:54):
held a lot of nostalgia and a lot of love.
And because there is support, I could do the work
that I do right. And it again not in isolation,
but as a collective. And so I urge those that
are doing this work to come out and share the
(40:16):
work you're doing. And I urge you to knock on
every door and knock on every window because there's so
many community members doing the work outside of agencies and
in agencies. I urged you to ask right and another
(40:38):
that's another reason why I. I also did that because
growing up, once I was in the center, all these
memories got triggered like I wish my mom, I wish
my dad knew these services were here. I wish they knew.
I didn't know either, right, And it's it's a let's
become visible because we are doing the work, and let's
(41:01):
step out and reach out because you know, as human
and flawed as we are, as limited we are, systemically,
we are going to figure something out, right. And and
that's what I see at the East LA Women's Center,
Like they're not joking, like community. These women will come
even if they don't are not seeking services, and they've
(41:23):
been there before. Can I just hang out here for
a bit? Can I just come say hi? They they
need that connection, you know. And and that's something I
love about that center is that there's so much heart,
there's so much passion, there's so much willingness, and and
all those with money out there come invest because we
are doing the work, you know. Like I know I
(41:46):
live in a capitalistic society, but there's I could tell
you all my coworkers, every woman I work with, all
the promotas, you don't understand.
Speaker 4 (41:55):
These they're the real heroes.
Speaker 5 (41:57):
They're the ones on the ground, they're the ones doing work.
I I'm like I can't do that, you know, so
come and invest to come in. You've got those deep pockets,
Come here and help me out because I need plantitas,
I need you know, I need everything. Our men, women, children,
(42:20):
our community deserve this are our communities are sacred and
we are sacred. And that's all.
Speaker 3 (42:30):
And that's how it's the perfect way to uh. To
conclude and end before I share some words, what's the
website where those with the DP pockets can go to?
Speaker 1 (42:42):
What is it?
Speaker 5 (42:43):
W w W dot e l a w c dot org.
You know, restorative practices there need some help with you know, budgets.
I like to bring in practitioners, community. I love to
invest in community, and so come and invest our fifty
years are coming. I'm excited to be part of it
(43:07):
and help us get through fifty more.
Speaker 1 (43:10):
Exactly. I wanted to make sure or did you want
to say something.
Speaker 7 (43:14):
Yeah, yeah, I'd like that.
Speaker 6 (43:15):
Yeah, national composits work, none of but if I could.
Speaker 1 (43:21):
What's a website? Now?
Speaker 6 (43:23):
And with your permission, just to add some final thoughts
and thanking somebody.
Speaker 7 (43:28):
Just to say that, you know, all of us have.
Speaker 6 (43:31):
The ability to choose what we carry forward in our
lives and I think it's a it's a collective responsibility
to identify what is the good and the healthy things
that have supported us in our families that we want
to carry forward, and then what are the things that
we no longer need? Right, lastly, those of us that
do this work, let's take care of ourselves. You know,
(43:55):
if you're if you're like us, if you're one of
my people's, we give and we give and we give
till there's nothing much to give when we get home,
and our families deserve more than our leftovers.
Speaker 7 (44:06):
Right.
Speaker 6 (44:07):
We give our communities a lot of patience, empathy, compassion, love, advocacy,
you name it. And then we get home and our
children get none. Let's be gentle with ourselves. Let's take
care of ourselves.
Speaker 5 (44:20):
Beautiful, Yeah at all? Can we shake it off? Now?
Speaker 1 (44:28):
Yeah we can't.
Speaker 3 (44:29):
Well, well, let's just wrap this segment by just me
just saying thank you. I really wanted at least this
segment to end the way it did, which is just
showing like even if you're listening, you're gonna feel your heartbeat,
(44:49):
and then once you feel that heartbeat, you're gonna be like, WHOA,
that is my heartbeat? And you mentioned something about mirrors,
and like, we are a mirror reflection.
Speaker 1 (44:58):
So if someone feels as.
Speaker 3 (45:00):
If there's no way that I could change, you're mirroring
back to them. Actually you can.
Speaker 1 (45:06):
Or if there's someone that's thinking there's nowhere for me
to go, you just mentioned two places where you could go.
Speaker 3 (45:12):
Or if there's someone saying I don't want to speak yet,
you're inviting them into the power of our stories. Because
what I've realized, the more that we tell our individual stories,
the more universal they are. And that's the medicine, that's
the power. And the society has trying to beat our
stories out of us so much. We feel a certain
(45:33):
way about telling our stories, but you guys are creating
the sacred space for the storytelling to happen, and that's
the entry point. And so I just really wanted to
say thank you, because on the macro level, it is
so deep and it seems daunting, and even driving over
(45:54):
here to UCLA was like, man, what am I really
going to offer? And I feel like you all and
and Jerry and Barbara has offered so much and will
continue and we're you all are just four people of
a whole community of folks doing this work like you
mentioned earlier, some known, some unknown, and so I just
want to just thank you your ancestors, your work, your children,
(46:18):
your partners for allowing you to be here.
Speaker 1 (46:20):
Thank you for the reminder to rest, to come fully charged.
Speaker 3 (46:23):
For that our own children don't take the patterns that
allow us to be the way we were.
Speaker 1 (46:29):
And so I'll leave with.
Speaker 3 (46:31):
The word love. I'll leave with the word love because
at the end of the day, that's all, that's all
that matters. And I know we're gonna end really quickly,
just with the circle so we can actually just look
at each other in the eye because that's where the
mirrors are. But I just really humbly, I just want
(46:54):
to say thank you. You guys oftentimes don't get acknowledged
the way you should. You don't get paid the way
you should, you don't get centered the way you should.
Speaker 1 (47:03):
People talk about public safety or all this stuff.
Speaker 3 (47:05):
So this is public safety, you know what I'm saying,
Like this is like the front lines, and I just
want you to know that I see you, I love you,
I honor you for what you do. And please, if
you can go back to your places of work and
give the love and acknowledgment from this space to all.
Speaker 1 (47:24):
Those folks, so thank you very much, thank you.
Speaker 3 (47:29):
Sacred Lessons is a production my Heart's Michael through our
podcast network, Sacred Lessons Media.
Speaker 7 (47:34):
And The Princeville.
Speaker 3 (47:36):
For more of your favorite shows, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Popular Podcasts
Hey Jonas!
Hey Jonas! The official Jonas Brothers podcast. Hosted by Kevin, Joe, and Nick Jonas. It’s the Jonas Brothers you know... musicians, actors, and well, yes, brothers. Now, they’re sharing another side of themselves in the playful, intimate, and irreverent way only they can. Spend time with the Jonas Brothers here and stay a little bit longer for deep conversations like never before.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by Audiochuck Media Company.
Betrayal Weekly
Betrayal Weekly is back for a new season. Every Thursday, Betrayal Weekly shares first-hand accounts of broken trust, shocking deceptions, and the trail of destruction they leave behind. Hosted by Andrea Gunning, this weekly ongoing series digs into real-life stories of betrayal and the aftermath. From stories of double lives to dark discoveries, these are cautionary tales and accounts of resilience against all odds. From the producers of the critically acclaimed Betrayal series, Betrayal Weekly drops new episodes every Thursday. If you would like to share your story, you can reach out to the Betrayal Team by emailing them at betrayalpod@gmail.com and follow us on Instagram at @betrayalpod and @glasspodcasts. Please join our Substack for additional exclusive content, curated book recommendations, and community discussions. Sign up FREE by clicking this link Beyond Betrayal Substack. Join our community dedicated to truth, resilience, and healing. Your voice matters! Be a part of our Betrayal journey on Substack.