Sacred Lessons in Film: Legacy, Fatherhood & Generations of Healing

In this deeply personal episode of Sacred Lessons, host Mike de la Rocha sits with his longtime friend Tad Nakamura, an award-winning filmmaker, father, and son of pioneering Asian American cinema icon Robert A. Nakamura. Having known each other for over 25 years, Mike and Tad reflect on growing up as sons of movement fathers, carrying both the gifts and the wounds of legacy. Through Tad’s film Third Act, they explore filmmaking as a bridge between grief and healing, fatherhood as a practice of presence, and storytelling as a way to reclaim generational memory. This intimate conversation is a reminder that art can open doors between fathers and sons and that healing often begins when we find the courage to tell our most vulnerable truths.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
What are the cycles fathers passed down that sons are
left to yield. What if being a man was about
holding it all together? I've been learning how to let go.
This is a space where that's speak truth to find
the power to heal and transform. I'm Mike Dela Rocha.
Welcome to Sacred Lessons.

Speaker 2 (00:22):
Sometimes we think our stories aren't worth telling, But every
story holds a key, a bridge between grief and understanding
the scene and unseen world, between father and son. Welcome
to Sacred Lessons. I'm Mike Dela Rocha. Today I'm excited
to be joined by my dear friend of almost thirty years,

(00:46):
Tad Nakamura, an award winning filmmaker, father, husband, and son
of a legend, the godfather of Asian American cinema, robert A. Knakamura.
His new film Third Act is both a son's love
letter and a meditation on legacy, grief and activism. It's
a testament how film can heal not just the storyteller,

(01:07):
but entire communities. But for my book Sacred Lessons and
his film Third Act were released, we have the opportunity
to share them with each other. I remember watching the
film and crying uncontrollably because our lives were mirroring each other.
So this episode is extremely personal to me as someone
who has known Tad for most of my life and

(01:30):
watched him grow into not only one of today's most
impactful storytellers, but also into a loving father, son and husband.

Speaker 3 (01:42):
Thanks Man, Now, appreciate Uh, appreciate you. Appreciate you inviting
me to be part of this. You know it's this
all part of the journey, but we can get into it.
But you've been a gift. Your book was a gift
at a key time, and so yeah, she's just so
honored to be here.

Speaker 2 (02:02):
Yeah, I was. I was so excited driving over here
because of all the guests. We've known each other the longest.
We were in our teenage years. We both went to CLA.
We both grew up with the blessing and the shadow
of these big fathers. We both found our love and

(02:23):
like water and subcultures. We're both football players and from
the moment I met you, I was like, man, I
wish I could be the Chicano version of Tad. And
before we even give like jump in, I just want
to say how how great I am that you have
blessed my life with your friendship, and carrying on the

(02:48):
legacy of your parents in such a profound and deep
way with the filmmaking, with the institute, with all this
stuff that you've always been rooted in, this value of
being in service is to the world, and so you're
you're a role model for me personally. So I just
want to say thank you for being on the show.

Speaker 3 (03:09):
No thanks, no appreciate that. I mean, you know, I think,
like you said, I first met you when I was eighteen,
you know, just a kid. And you know, I think
every stage right when you when you're a freshman in
high school, there's like the cool seniors, and then you know,
when you're a freshman in college, you were you weren't
a senior then, but you're still like the upper classmen.

(03:31):
You're still like the cool senior to me. And ever
since then, I've looked up to you, and I think
that was the cool part is reading your book, I
realized and found out how how similar we are. I mean,
I always felt a very specific connection to you, but
I think reading the book, listening to you read the

(03:54):
book especially, I was like, oh, all these different both
past and present. You know, so many parallels, but wanted
to really just thank you for you know, I think
I was just mentioning you know, my niece is now
a freshman in college and just that time, you're just
such as a mold of clay but also a sponge

(04:17):
and you really, yeah, you really impacted me and inspired
me on the path that I'm on today and continue
to be on. So yeah, thank you.

Speaker 2 (04:29):
Thanks. Well, let's jump in. So I was Shane right like,
you were making this film Third Act while I was
writing the book Sacred Lessons, and unbeknownst to each other,
we didn't know that, and it was like we were
both I was writing your film and you were making
the book into a film, and we had the opportunity

(04:52):
before they were released to like read and watch, and like,
I was just so moved one because I had a
deeper understanding of who you are and who your family is.
But before we jump in, for those that haven't seen
Third Act, can you share what that film is about.

Speaker 3 (05:12):
Yeah, So Third Act is a feature documentary about me
and my dad, Robert A. Nakamura, who you mentioned in
the intro. At first, it was just going to be
a bio pick about his life, kind of a portrait
of an artist celebration of his accolades, and once we

(05:32):
started doing the interviews about early in the production, he
got diagnosed with Parkinson's and so that really shifted from
you know, once we realized anyone could make a film
on my dad's accolades on his career, but what film

(05:57):
could I only make as his son as a filmmaker.
So that became kind of our north star. But I
think because we worked on the film for so long,
it took us seven years to make it, you know,
a COVID happened in the middle of that. The process
was actually very simple in a way, similar to what

(06:18):
we're doing right now, except we didn't have any crew,
and so it was just me and my dad in
his office, sitting across from each other. And you know,
I think we realized that the process was special, especially
me processing you know, becoming a father myself. But also,

(06:43):
you know, I've always been afraid. I had this anxiety
of losing my dad. He's always been an older dad,
you know, growing up, kids used to think he was
my grandpa, things like that. And then for him, you know,
being in the sunset of his life and the third
act of his life, got a chance for him to
process his own mortality, but we got to do that together,

(07:06):
so that became, you know, the film eventually became more
of a father and son story than a portrait of
an artist. But it also includes not only me and
my dad, but my gi Chan, my dad's dad, and
then my son Prince, so it's four generations again, similar

(07:27):
or exactly the same is your book. And I think
at first I wanted to write a love letter and
a thank you letter to my dad. But what was
cool about the process is that I literally got to
tell him that, and he literally got to tell me

(07:48):
how proud he was. So I was able to check
that box before the film was even done, and then
it from there. It just in a weird way, I
started to hold onto it because I realized this was
going to be the last project me and my dad
were going to work on. My dad is my mentor.
He had worked, you know on helped me with all

(08:10):
my films up to this point. And so I actually
caught myself, as well as the producer Yuri Chung, who's
my good friend and was actually my dad's student also
at UCLA, really caught myself wanting to procrastinate finishing the film,
wanting to shoot more and more and more, even though
we had to finish the film. But I it was

(08:31):
like kind of giving him a hug and that last
hug and not wanting to let go because I know,
I knew when when the film was done, so would
our working relationship at least were.

Speaker 2 (08:43):
You able were you able to tell your dad things
through the filmmaking process that we weren't able to say
before then?

Speaker 3 (08:53):
Yeah, because you know, like like most men, especially if
generation Asian men, Japanese specifically, you know, we we don't talk.
We talk, but we don't talk about how we feel
about each other face to face. Uh. What's interesting is that,

(09:16):
you know, That's why I wanted to include the the
shots of us driving to the Rose Bowl, the one
the the only time we me and him really talked
was in the car, And I think that's because it
wasn't like this like looking at each other. We're even
though we're side by side in a very intimate setting,
we're still both looking at the windshield. So that kind

(09:37):
of became a buffer, right of this uncomfortability. Uh So
that's the only one of a few times We're not
a few, but we would always talk and catch up
pretty intimately in the car. And and so I think
there was you know, I think one we're making a film,
so I had a director's hat on and a son's

(09:59):
hat on, and I think the director in me pushed
me to either ask the hard questions or to articulate
how I felt. But also because of you know, his
health was declining. He had this uncurable disease diagnosis. So
I realized that the clock was ticking and didn't know

(10:20):
how much time I would have left. So that is
the thing that I think really pushed me to say,
you know, you know, I literally just said, you know,
thank you for everything you've done for me, but also
trying to articulate how much I appreciated you know, and
didn't take that in vain. But I think what was

(10:43):
I didn't realize it. So I tried to explain, you know,
shared in the interviews. But what I realized with the
most impactful part of the process was writing the voiceover.
And I'm sure you had to do that with writing
the book of you know, life is just so go, go,
go go. And I think us as men or maybe

(11:05):
people in general, at least I'll just speak for myself.
I realized how not in tune with my own emotions
because you know, my editor and producer, you know, for
the voiceover for a certain scene, they're like, well, how
did how do you feel? Or how did you feel?
And a simple question like that I couldn't answer. So

(11:27):
a good friend of mine, Tracy Kachukidiyama, helped me with
journaling practices to get the voiceover written. And so I
had I sat down and forced myself to really write
down how I felt and had conversations with myself on paper.
But that whole process, what that really did. It prepared

(11:47):
me to you know, after the film and released. He
had you know, he had seen the film, but when
his health really declined, and I was really lucky to
know when the last conversation I would have with him
because he you know, at the very end, he was
in hospice at home. You know, he had good days
and bad days, and probably it was probably three days

(12:09):
before he died, he got this burst of energy and
I think a lot of you know, I talked to
hospice nurses and they said a lot of people have
this burst right before they pass and you know, he
actually we actually went outside. He hadn't left his room
for days, and in that moment, I knew this was

(12:30):
going to be the last conversation I was ever going
to have with my dad. I know exactly what I
wanted to say. And it's only because of the process,
specifically journaling, that I was prepared for that moment. And
you know, you know, just to be vulnerable all share
and you know, one of the things that I told

(12:52):
him was was, you know, it's okay, like you don't
have to hold on. I'll be okay. You don't have
to worry about me anymore. And he looked at me
and he said, I'm always gonna worry about you, and
and that I knew exactly what he meant by that.

(13:15):
He knew he wasn't worried about me being a filmmaker.
He wasn't worried about me carrying on his legacy. But
he was worried about, you know, me being a good husband,
me being able to provide for my family, and worry
about me not enjoying my kids as much as I'm

(13:37):
a good father, but to really enjoy. And that the
fact that he said I'm always gonna worry about you
meant he's always going to be with me and and
that he'll always be thinking about me. But as the
father and now as a father, I get it. It's

(14:00):
it's concern right, you want to be there, And that's
the hardest part of being a father too, is this vulnerability.
And I just realized, well, and then also too, you know,
one of the other things I said was, you know
what we did it We made the film and and

(14:20):
he looked at me and he said, you know, it's amazing,
and so that you know, that's priceless. And I really
it was only because of the process of making the
film that maybe both of us were prepared to have
that last conversation.

Speaker 2 (14:39):
We'll getting all emotional over here, because that's such a
beautiful thing to be able to have that moment. And
one of my favorite moments was when you premiered the
film at the Japanese American Museum in downtown and you

(15:00):
able to share what you said privately to your dad
publicly in front of us sold out audience, and then
your dad gets wheeled out in a wheelchair and I
must have lost a pound of water because I was
crying so much because it's like, Wow, what a what
a beautiful gift to give to someone who's on the

(15:22):
path to transition into spirit world. Before the filmmaking, did
you and your dad where you did you say I
love you? Or is it only in those times when
you were driving to the Rose Bowl because it's so
hard for men to look at each other in the eye,
because then that's where our spirit live, Like you could

(15:44):
see our souls that way, and then then that would
allow you to like really be strong enough to share
whatever emotion needs to come out. And our fathers came
up in a generation where you didn't do that, and
you know, in fact, you like kind of look down
like Chanja and these culture is like humble, you know,
and you don't make eye contact now that you're talking

(16:05):
like that. But do you guys have that kind of
relationship before the film or did the film catalyze that
for you guys to be more emotionally expressive to each other.

Speaker 3 (16:16):
I think, you know, growing up as a kid, I
always remember telling him I love you know, just you know,
as a kid, I love your dad, and I'm sure
he would you know respond, you know. But again it's funny,
right because when there's there's a baby, when there's a kid,
I don't think men have any problem with telling them
they love you. But as I got older, as I

(16:40):
became a teenager closer to an adult, and later as
an adult, I think it became more uncomfortable for him.
The good thing though about my dad was he's the
one that broke the cycle. You know. So I'm fourth
generation Japanese American, but on my dad's side a little

(17:00):
complicated because my botch On his mom is second generation,
his niece, but mye On his dad is first generation.
You say so, so I you know, so I think
for sure my geech On never said that to my dad.
And but my dad was self aware and he would

(17:24):
always tell me like, you know, even recently, he's like
he was self aware that how hard it was for him,
but he still wanted to try. But usually what would
happen is I would say I love you, Dad, and
he just pat me on the back and go okay.
You know that was his way. But I what I

(17:44):
am proud of is, you know, the last five years,
every time I would see him, you know, I love you, Dad,
and he would say I love you too. And what
was cool is you know, when he was on his
deathbed and we knew this was going to be. You know,
the last time, we brought all the grandkids one by one,

(18:04):
and then I brought my son, and you know, he
is nine years old, and I didn't I try to
talk to him about you know, death and what's happening,
but you still just don't know what's registering. And so
when I brought him up there, he said, you know,
he said, I love you, Bob, bub He said, I

(18:26):
love you forever, and I'll see you in my dreams.
And my dad wasn't very conscious, but he I was
holding his hand and he tapped my hand just to
respond to my son. But what's funny is that I
bring my daughter up and my daughter's five, and she

(18:46):
just says, I love you, Bob, Bob. And for my
daughter he said I love you too. And then also
when my niece went, she said he responded. So even
on his day bed, he felt more comfortable saying I
love you to his granddaughters than to his grandson and grandsons.

(19:09):
So so anyway, sorry, I got kind of caught up
in the story. I forgot the question. But yeah, I think,
but for sure he's that generation that would show his
love instead of say it. And the first time I
really saw that and was really touched. Is the first
film I had that had a PPS broadcast premiere. It

(19:32):
was a big deal and it was the week before
the broadcast my dad and he didn't tell me he
did this. I think someone else told me, maybe with
my mom. But he went to each neighbor in the
on our block and knocked on their door and gave
him a flyer and said, hey, my son's film is
going to be on TV. You know you should watched it.

(19:54):
And he's not the guy that kind of got to
talk to the neighbors at all. He probably was the
first time he probably went, you know, met them, and
plus he didn't want to even tell me that, but
that was a way that he really showed me his
love and I was really touched. But I am proud.
By the end of his life, I had said it

(20:14):
so much, my sister had said it so much, the
grandkids said it so much that he was actually very
comfortable saying I love you to.

Speaker 2 (20:19):
Me so beautiful. This whole journey I've been on, we've
been on, has allowed me to finally accept that our
fathers did the best they could with us in the

(20:40):
sense of having grandfathers that didn't that were emotionally hardened
that our fathers didn't know the language of love, but
they showed it in such incredible ways. And how beautiful
to see this Asian man going door to door with
neighbors that didn't even know who he was because he

(21:00):
so proud of you and stepping outside of his own
comfort zone. That's how big his love was for you.
And that's one of so many things that we probably
don't even know he did. And I sit with the
tension of that like image in my mind, where then
the image of you know, minutes hours before transitioning and

(21:25):
not being able to say I love you to the grandkids.
But with the granddaughters, it's just fully and those moments
have they impacted the way you father your own children?

Speaker 3 (21:37):
It definitely has. You know. It's funny because I'm sure
you're the same. I probably say I love you too much.
I haven't asked my daughter. I was like, you know,
I say it to you know, I love you like
And then I said, you know, do I say that
too much? She's like, kind of you know what it
might be losing it's it's potency. But you know what

(22:00):
what's interesting is I've been ever since. You know, as
I'm become you know, get more and more used to
and experience being a father. And now that my dad
has passed, I'm starting to look at things through a
father's eyes, his eyes as a father. So, you know,
so we premiered that we had the privilege of premiere

(22:21):
in the film at Sundance this January, and you know,
I think it was all about him, right to me,
made this film for him. This is the last you know,
finally he can get his flowers when he's still alive
to appreciate and enjoy it. Also too, he's kind of
the main subject of the film. You know, he's the

(22:43):
one I feel that guy standing ovation. But I'm realizing
that he was experiencing that whole time as a father.
He wasn't seeing that experiencing that moment as oh, this
is me, people are here for me. This film is
about me. He was there seeing his son fulfill a

(23:08):
goal and fulfill a dream. And you know, I, you know,
I think for my kids. Right my son scores a
basket as basketball, I feel this immense pride just for
one basket. And so I could just now imagine him
not only watching me become a filmmaker working with me

(23:33):
side by side, but that moment of being there on
stage together, he was more proud. And that level of
pride as a father, whether it's silent or not, it's
just on another level right way more important than anything
accolade you get. And so that I'm reinterpreting even this

(24:00):
last year through the eyes of a father, and that's
that's been really cool.

Speaker 2 (24:07):
And this whole time, has there been a I know
there's a series of moments, but is there a particular
moment that touches you the most from this whole journey
with them?

Speaker 3 (24:26):
You know, I think what what I'm realizing is that
he really did hold on for us, and you know
he was he was in a wheelchair. I mean he
was you know, he that that moment that you mentioned

(24:47):
at the La Premiere in Little Tokyo. He passed a
month later, you know, And so I'm just realizing, you know,
for for me, if I have like a cold or
like I pull the muscle, like I started complaining having
to go to work or just anything. And he went

(25:07):
to Park City, Utah, where I mean there's icy, you know,
it's snowy. He's in a wheelchair going on a plane
to a car, you know, but realizing that he nothing
was going to stop him from being there. And so
for me, I appreciate the physical struggle that he was

(25:29):
willing to endure because he knew I wanted him to
be there. I mean to the point where his last
couple of weeks, you know, it was it was I
was always telling him, you know, when we're making the film,
it was like all right, dad, and like, let's just
finish this film, right, And then once we got into Sundance,
like all right, let's just make it to Sundance. I
need I need And I would tell him selfishly like

(25:50):
I need you with me, Like I'm cool with you
going eventually, but I need you right now.

Speaker 2 (25:59):
How do you respond?

Speaker 3 (26:00):
He would say, you know, he he would nod his
head and basically say I got you. But to the
point where my mom, you know, he was really suffering
at the end, and my mom had to pull me
aside and say, you can't tell him to keep on
holding on, like he'll do anything for you, including living

(26:24):
longer than he wants to. And so that's why when
that last conversation, I said, It'll be okay, Like I'll
be all right, you can, you can go now, And
and he needed that because if I don't, I don't
think if I would have said that, he would have
held on even though he was going. You know, he

(26:45):
was not in a good place. So so I realized
how much he was doing just for me and my sister,
and that just you know, the older I the more
and more time passes by, the more I appreciate that.

Speaker 2 (27:02):
Through this whole process and now the grieving process. It's
like they say, like there's no workbook for being a father,
and there's no workbook for dealing with the profound loss
of the most important man in your life, which at
least for us was our fathers. Was there particular lessons

(27:23):
that you are learning in real time in this whole
grieving process.

Speaker 3 (27:27):
Well that, you know, I really want to thank you
because you know, when you sent me the early version
of the book, you know, my dad was in a
pretty good health, but it was actually the you know,
he died in June eleventh, and I think you would
drop the audiobook maybe a month third, yeah, that month,

(27:53):
and so it was it was this amazing thing and
gift where I was actually you know, he was in
hospice and then my mom actually had to go to
the hospital, so me and my sister were the only
ones that became his caretakers. And so I would spend
the night with my dad. I mean, you know, real,
anyone who's experienced again, this is those of us who

(28:16):
are lucky enough to experience a loved one going through hospice.
I think a lot of people don't even get a
chance to do that. But anyone who's you know, really
gone through that, it's it's facing your fears right in
the face. I mean, seeing your seeing my dad die,
seeing him decline. And so I would spend the night

(28:39):
with him, you know, helping me to go to the bathroom,
like all all that shit right, the dark, the the
heavy stuff. But then I would listen to your audio
book and the storytelling was so great, and it was
it was your journey and your family to where it
was a distraction. It could get my mind off of

(29:01):
what was going on in the present. But I was
actually at the same time learning from your book those
lessons in real time of how to deal with what
I was going through. So you know, I was listening
to your book about going to the beach. That's the
first thing I did I to reset after those heavy

(29:22):
nights with my dad, I would go to the beach
and connect and reset. I mentioned to you before the
you know, for for my family, it's always been moths
that represent you know, the dead coming to visit, or
spirits or ancestors presence. But it wasn't until I read

(29:42):
your book that, you know, for you and your family,
it was monarch butterflies. So little things like that. Ever
since I read your book, every time I see a
button monarch butterfly especially, I think of my dad and I,
you know, I text you to that story about you know,

(30:03):
maybe a month after he died, my son had a
basketball tournament in the Japanese American Basketball Leagues in Vegas.
And anyone knows my dad, like it's funny because you know,
my dad's known as this film Asian American Studies professor,
godfather of Asian American media. But really, you know, he

(30:24):
would talk about gambling and food the most out of anything,
and Vegas was his favorite spot, probably similar to many
Asian families. You know that so and that had been
the first time I've been to Vegas in a long time.
But anyone in my family when we go to Vegas.
We think of my dad. And as soon as we

(30:45):
pulled up into this casino, the hotel lobby, I look
up and there's these huge, you know, fake monarch butterflies,
and I was just like, all right, he's with me.
But again, if it wasn't for your book, I wouldn't
have had that experience, and I wouldn't be able to
sense him, and and it's and even too, it was
interesting after he passed. I went to the beach and

(31:08):
I still can't articulate it, but realizing he is now
everything right, He's the water when I see the clouds,
especially when we were into so we went. We screened
the film in Hawaii a couple of months ago, and
we were able to spread his ashes in the ocean.
So I think one of the lessons since he's passed

(31:31):
is learning how to still maintain that relationship. And I'm
starting to realize that, I mean even you know, we're
talking about masculinity right. A couple months after he passed,
I'm driving. I'm driving, actually drive my son back from

(31:51):
his taekwondo practice, and it's one of these things that
I'm I'm at a stop stop red light and it's
a no turn on red. And then like, you know,
this guy's honking at me because it's a red light.
But I normally could turn but and then he pulls
up on me, right, and I kind of revs up
and then again right. We're talking about these instincts that

(32:12):
we're constantly trying to unlearn. I I stick my chest out.
But it was funny because it was this. It was this.
I was trying to be nice but in this aggressive way.
So I rolled down my window and I'm just like,
it's no, turn on red, and you good, and he goes,
I'm good, you know, but it was and then and

(32:33):
then but then he he you know, peels out and
turns in front of me. And at that moment, I
hear my dad in my ear, like idiot, Like for
a red light, you roll down the window. Anything could
have happened at that moment, right with your son in
the back, and that I knew exactly what he would

(32:55):
have told me, and I could hear it, and that
was a clue of like, Okay, he's always going to
be in my ear even though he's not here physically.

Speaker 2 (33:05):
I was a part of a beautiful men's circle last night,
and someone Jose Leon shout out to Hombo Industry, says,
we always have voices in our heads, and you know,
you can interpret that in different ways. It could be
our fathers, it could be ancestors, but they are The

(33:27):
question that no one ever asked is like the voice
in your head? Yeah, who is that? But who's listening?
And that who's listening? Is that dance between you are
the evolution of your father and so that's why he's like, hey, hey, mensal,
what are you doing? Like, but who's listening? Is the

(33:48):
part that we're becoming. This area of becoming with your
son in the back and that story, especially since the
transition to spirit world with your dad, have you do
you see yourself as a different father or there's ways
that you're raising him that are different now that your

(34:10):
dad's no longer physically with us, you.

Speaker 3 (34:13):
Know, it's been so there hasn't been that much time.
You know, he only passed, you know, a handful of
months ago, So I don't I don't know if there
is a difference since he's passed, but there's definitely as
he's getting older. So you know, my son's nine now,
and you know that nine that's starting to like not

(34:37):
be your little boy, or he doesn't want to be
your little boy and coming into his own. So I'm
I'm actually really visiting my childhood through the eyes of
my dad, or through eyes of a father versus a kid,
and really trying to It's interesting. I wouldn't say I'm

(35:01):
it's ever evolving as a father, but more since he's passed,
I've been looking at my childhood through his eyes more
than anything else, you know, for example, just this on
the car tip. And there's a scene in the film
in third act, well, my dad explains, you know, when
he was so my Gichon was a gardener and on

(35:23):
the weekends and the summers, like most gardener's kids, my
dad had to work with him. And so my Gichon
and my dad are driving in his gardener truck and
you know, someone pulls and puts their foot off the
brake and rolls back and hits my g chon his car.
And this white guy comes out, you know, and comes

(35:44):
to my Gichon's door and says, you know, you hit me,
and you're a dirty jab gardener. And I've always you know,
as a kid, You're like, you know, if that was me,
I would have whooped his you know, and and also
to my Jechon was a black belt Judeo master. He
could have easily whooped this guy's ass. And I always

(36:06):
want the thing that I always thought about was like
he was also at the time undocumented, and so you know,
you can only do so much in that situation. But
now I'm also realizing that to my gich On, his
son is is right next to him, so if anything
goes down, it's putting his son in jeopardy. So as
a father, he chose to to take the smarter route,

(36:30):
didn't say anything, and safely, you know, got away. But
it reminded me of this time is very similar. I
was probably twelve thirteen and driving with my dad and
we're in a parking lot, you know, and same thing.
We're looking for parking and some guy pulls out and
almost hits my dad, and so they honk and this

(36:52):
guy just wouldn't let it go. And this guy, you know,
actually gets out of his car and then you know,
whether he mentioned or not, I took it as a
as a not even a microaggression, like you know, he
said open your eyes, right, as an Asian American, that's
anything about eyes is fucking fighting words, and then he
he you know, he came out of the car and
looked at him and SAYDS, you know, open your fucking eyes.

(37:14):
And then he looked at him and then spit on
the ground. And I actually caught out of the car
and got in this guy's face. It was like, you know,
fuck you and my dad. You know, that's when my
dad sparked, He said get in the car, you know,
and then we drove home. And he was not only

(37:36):
at the at the time, right, he yelled at me like,
don't you don't like that was so dumb. It's not
worth it. You don't know what this person could do.
But you know, I think from then on he also
realized I'm at that stage where I'm now in this
danger zone, right, I'm I'm not a kid. All the

(37:58):
dangers that men of color, men in general, adults can face.
He had realized I had reached that stage, and that
actually triggered this whole anxiety ever since then. That moment
was like I need you to you know, you got
to call and check in. Like he became very paranoid

(38:18):
and worried. But yeah, it's just it's interesting those parallels
of stories. Again, it's both connected to these concepts that
we grow up as of men. As one is don't
let anyone. You know, we're always taught don't let anyone
disrespect you. But then even currently, I think it's even
in a progressive culture, it's okay to still like but

(38:44):
don't let anyone disrespect your family, right that there's there's
there's a line that you can't and and I you know,
so it's still I think, you know, we're both probably
you know you're doing a much better job. But it's
this constant work that we have to do to both

(39:04):
unlearn and then relearn. But at the same time, and
that's what I'm constantly trying to struggle with as a father,
at what elements of this hypermasculinity, this toxic masculinity that
I know helped me actually survive and get through certain

(39:24):
situations that my kids will also need. But I don't
want to pass that on. And I'm sure there's another
way to survive and to get through. I just don't
know that. So that's something you know, I'm constantly being
struggling with as as a father. Specifically, is they are

(39:48):
now as they get older, the dangers of the world
are becoming more of a reality, and how do we
prepare them for that without passing on this toxic masculinity
that we were taught, right.

Speaker 2 (40:11):
And I feel that same just you know, I feel
that same tension with my son being twelve three years
older about to go into eighth grade, and that is
the divine line. Then you go into high school and
all you know, my biggest fear is that he gets
bullied like you. But my son at that age, you know,

(40:35):
he's a mini me. But I was more aggressive, you know,
I was the football player, just like you. That's not
my son's energy, which makes me even more afraid. And
here I am on a podcast around redefining masculinity and
the dangers of the world, but then also a different
world that we're trying to create that isn't assimilating into

(40:59):
this harmful view, you know. And you know, my biggest
teacher has been my partner because she she always reminds me, like, hey,
you have that faith that he's gonna figure it out
and it's gonna look different. And Mike, you have to
model strength in a different way. And it's also weird

(41:22):
because as dudes, like we're physically playful, like we've wrestled,
We do all this other stuff that I don't know
if it's an innate thing or it's a societal it's
probably all of it. But uh, I'm like, I can
see myself becoming your dad, like hey, call me check in,
or like even like straight up tonight going to the movies,

(41:45):
but I'm going with him when I was going to
movies by myself at that age, you know, And I
don't I don't know what the answer is, but I
do know that I get closer to something, dude, by
us having the convo, because one, I know, I'm not alone,
Like we're both as two fathers like struggling with it,

(42:09):
which you know, for my dad, he didn't struggle. You
just passed it on. Maybe it was because they were
working so much. Maybe it's because they were giving so
much of their time to the movement that there was
maybe less time. I don't know what it was different generations,
but now I definitely see it. And you know, through
these conversations, I've also been learning that, like the first

(42:33):
episode was Jerry Garcia and he has three comedian, he
has three boys, and he was saying when he was young,
he was, you know, scrawny, small, he didn't play any sports,
but his weapon was humor, so no one would punk
them because he would make them look bad. And ever
since that conversation of it, like, well, what then is

(42:54):
my son's superpower? Not I don't want to say, to
keep them safe, but to help them navigate the world.
And then the hardest part for me to have has
been not imposing who I was at his age on him,
because then I'm replicating the same harmful patterns and it's
been hard. It still is hard, and that's why a

(43:14):
lot of the stuff I do is just trying to
calm myself and not overreact because everything around us is overreacting.
And yeah, I don't we both don't know the answers,
but I do know I don't want him to do
what I did. And it's mostly I don't know having

(43:35):
I'm afraid of the outside world, like you call it danger,
But I have to trust in our fatherhood because this
is a new definition of fatherhood. Just having the conversation.

Speaker 3 (43:48):
Yeah, no, I was having actually conversation. I mean the
great thing. And I'm curious now if our fathers were
able to talk to their friends who had kids the
same age about being fathers right, right, and their fears
and insecurities, because that's the vulnerability that luckily our generation

(44:09):
is closer getting better at. But I was talking to
so again, I think one of the best things, you know,
besides having a great role model as a dad and
a mom for my parents, is that this community right
that we have I have with you know, my friends,

(44:31):
specifically playing football growing up. I'm still really close with
a lot of them. We have this resource of we're
all going through these phases together and we can share
notes and talk about it. So I was talking to
a friend or the other night about the same thing
because his son's actually the same age as your son.
And again, this is the fear of you don't want
to get we know. Well, the question I post him was,

(44:55):
are we preparing our kids for a world that no
longer this right like we're because he was specifically talking about,
all right, someone raises up on you, what are you
gonna do? You know? And you know, and there's these
again growing up in the eighties and nineties, you know,
the one thing is, well, you just gotta punch one

(45:16):
person once, right, and then you gotta you gain your respect.
And that's just like now it just says it sounds
like just caveman talk, but we're talking of just like
one are our kids are not the same kids we were.
But also to the world that they're growing up in,
bullying doesn't even happen on the playground, no Moore, It's

(45:37):
all online, right, and we don't all those tactics don't
work like literally that has mixed. It has nothing to
do with the world they're growing up in. But I
do struggle with as what I realized too, like this
whole time, ever since I met you. And I think

(45:57):
it's funny because I was thinking of back about you know,
the first time we met, and basically that was my
first time of people who loved me, who cared about me,
but we were willing to check me or call me
in versus call me out. And I remember this is
vivid were we're writing signs for a protest and remember

(46:22):
the homie Nick was writing. I don't know if you
remember this, but again, caveman eighteen year old boy. I
was like, hey, Nick, you write like a girl, and
you were the one that like check me, but you
also knew how to check me because you didn't check me.

(46:42):
You said, hey, Stacy you know what Tad just said,
you know, and Stacy came at me in the right way,
or I probably might not have listened to you, but
I was going to listen to Stacy. But anyway, like
this whole time since and I've been trying to empty
this cup and unlearn all this mass, you know, toxic masculine.

(47:08):
Also to a friend of mine, just Calliny Harra, we
had a convote and he actually I always refer to
it as toxic masculinity, but he introduced me to the
concept is it toxic masculinity or is it all toxic
masculinity or is it hyper masculinity? And is there a difference?
And that I've been sitting on that for a while,

(47:29):
but I just realized I've been trying to unlearn so
much for the last thirty years. But at the same time,
as much as I'm trying to pour it out, I'm
also constantly pouring it back in. And now as a father,
especially a father to a son who's getting older, those
things are being more and more apparent to me of

(47:50):
like I'll catch what I'm telling him, and I'm just like,
you know, the whole Like if anyone get into your face,
you know, like you don't let anyone like hit you know,
you gotta hit him back, and all this stuff. I'm
just like, I can't believe I just told my son this,
you know. So I'm and then also too, you know,
I think being a husband or being a partner, you know,

(48:15):
luckily my wife is constantly checking me. I think I
have to I have a different reaction when she checks me.
It's more being called out than calling in, but definitely
as a as a husband, really being more and more
aware of these minor things but also these big things

(48:38):
that again, thirty years working on it still feel like
I've gained a little bit, but like it's like, oh man,
I got got so much to learn. But at the
same time, I got to stop pouring it back in.
But I don't know how to stop pouring it back
in when it comes to write your family, when it

(48:59):
comes to safety, when it comes to physical danger, or
even you know. I think, I think for Asian Americans
the whole masculinity and racism are intertwined, right, because for
Asian Americans, especially for my dad's generation, it was really

(49:19):
being demasculated rights as men, and so in a misguided way,
my way of fighting stereotypes of Asian men as a
kid was to be as toxic as possible, was to
be the alpha, like, oh, you don't think this was
going to get in your face, I'll get in your face, right,

(49:41):
or even on the football field, right, like playing Pop Warner.
I was always the only Asian kid on the whole field.
And maybe other people don't see me that way, but
I saw myself that way, and I felt like I
had to one represent but also too had these like
oh they just think there's just this weak, skinny Asian

(50:02):
kid and have to overcompensate. So I'm realizing how much
I overcompensated. But at the same time, it's hard because
and maybe it's not true, but in my mind, that
did help me. That did help me survive. I was
not bullied. I might have been more of a bully,
and now I have to sit with those consequences. But

(50:26):
it's I haven't fully let go of that was that
was bad. I don't think it's right, but in my
mind it's still I still benefited from it, and maybe
that's the better way to put it. I benefited from that.
That doesn't mean it's right either, right, that goes with privilege,

(50:48):
and a lot of other things. But now when it
comes to conceptually, right, there's one thing. But when it
comes to practice with your own kids, and if they
don't do certain things, you're word that they're going to
suffer serious consequences. It's kind of on a whole different
level now, or a different situation.

Speaker 2 (51:04):
Right. Oh, you're bringing You're making me realize a lot
of stuff right now, Tad. The first thing I was
going to address is just being on tour. I stopped
using the term toxic masculinity. One because the I guess
the audience a man I'm trying to reach, Uh there

(51:26):
were It's like not an issue of masculine effeminy because
we have both. So if I start labeling toxic, they
may misinterpret me saying like it's bad to be a man.
And so I've been saying harmful behaviors or thoughts that
we have as people that identify as men, because I

(51:47):
don't I want I don't I want the conversation to
go and not have it stopped as soon as I
say certain words. And then the other thing you're making
me really realize right now in this conversation is a
lot of my fear my son is my own projection
of what I did, that I was the bully, that

(52:07):
I don't want to bully him, and it's my own
kind of reckoning of privilege and power, because like you,
I wanted to be the biggest guy, the biggest football player,
because that's what I was taught to be a man.
People had to fear you, and you couldn't express emotion,
and you had to take the first punch and then

(52:28):
the first kick and then don't stop. And I started
to realize like I was beating up someone else because
I was beating up myself because I hated who I was,
but I had to lie to myself because that's the
lie that we're taught to feel. And so literally I'm realizing, dang,
like I'm projecting all the shit that I did at
his age unto him. On top of the fact, like

(52:52):
you said, it's a totally different world. We didn't have
all these gadgets growing up. We were outside playing and
side bullying or bullying. Even if that I'm already putting
that out there as if that's going to be his
reality when it may not be, you know, And so
just thank you, because I'm having a lot of realizations

(53:12):
in real time with this. Before we go to the
last segment, I wanted to ask you, is there anything
left unsaid to your father or your gee Chong that
you never shared to them while they were around?

Speaker 3 (53:34):
You know? Right now, I can't, I can't think of anything.
I mean, And that's that's why, you know, with my dad,
you know, because I know, for example, you know you
you didn't have as much time with your dad in
his last weeks and moments. So I just I've just

(53:54):
left with a lot of gratitude because I at least
right now, Wow, I feel like I was able to
say everything. And and also too, I think my dad,
I mean, you called your son mini me, right, I

(54:16):
think my dad always saw me as his mini me,
to the point where he knew me better than I did.
I knew myself, so he he he felt that my
personality was exactly like his personality. Therefore he could almost
foresee what I how that would help, and how that

(54:37):
would not help. And and so yeah, I think there
are so many things that were unsaid, that didn't have
to be said, that were still understood, which i'm I'm
I'm makes me feel good. I think with my grandfather's

(55:00):
you know I'm the namesake of both my grandfathers, So
Tadashi my first name is my mom's dad's name, and
how to Kichi, my middle name is my dad's dad's name.
And I've always felt that that I'm the combination of
both of them. So even though I didn't get to

(55:20):
know them as well, I feel like whatever I do
is is both of them. So there's this really nice
connection with my name, so I'll forever be connected with
my grandfather's. Actually, I know there's a certain patient, but
I wanted to ask you, like going back, you know,

(55:41):
with these men's circles you've been doing, and even as
the people, part of one theory I have is that
like that, there's the bully. So I'm just wondering one theory.
At least my experience was that I had to be

(56:03):
that hyper I had to be that hyper male to
get validated by society as enough. But I think it's
only because I got that Okay, you're good, you're enough,
then that I could actually step back and try to
unlearn and try to balance that. And I'm just curious

(56:25):
because at least with the men's circle that I went to,
what I assumed is that certain people were those alpha males,
and they were the ones that were showing up to
this men's circle. So I'm just curious if you feel
like it is those alphas that have reached kind of

(56:46):
reached this quote unquote part of success or enough to
where then they could scale it back versus if you
never got that acknowledgment from society of being masculine enough
where you're you're then always striving for that and you know,
so I'm just curious with like, especially the audience that

(57:07):
I think of a man that you're trying to reach.
I'm just wondering what you think about that.

Speaker 2 (57:12):
Yeah, I think it's beautiful question. I'd probably say it's
the and both. I think there's a real reckoning and
cultural kind of battle going on to define manhood in

(57:35):
a new generation. And I think, yeah, there's a lot
of us that maybe adopted a real painful definition what
it is, and as we have sons and get older,
we start realizing, like that's not the healthiest for not
only our loved ones, but for ourselves. But then I

(57:55):
also see right now there's this crisis of loneliness and depression,
suicide of men all around. I was sharing like Scott
Gallery has this new book and he's talking about it's
almost like one in two men don't even know how
to talk to someone that are interested in I'm not

(58:16):
even putting like gender preference on. I'm just saying we
don't have the social skills to know how to talk
to a person, which is leading us to be even
more secluded and isolated. And I think right now the medicine,
if you will, is to make men feel like less alone,

(58:36):
but that they belong in this society, in whoever they are.
And it's weird, like hearing you ask this question that
I was living most like knowing your story. We both
knew how to code switch, and we both knew how
to like navigate different worlds, whether there were ethnic worlds

(58:57):
or class worlds or like subculture world So I think
like in school, I had to be a particular image,
but then the real me was actually enamored with and
gravitated and attracted to those those people that were not
society's definition of a tough man, because within them I

(59:20):
got to see like, wow, you're resisting a dominant narrative,
a story of who you should be, and you're actually
know this is actually who I am and I'm comfortable
in that. And they were the ones that were always
like shit it on and bullied, but they were the
misfits that always accepted me, and you know, now older
when it was an unspoken thing, like they knew, like, hey,

(59:44):
we're cool. But I get it. I get that you're
the jock in this moment, and I get you're the
punk rock singer in this and I love you because
you're trying to figure it out. And there was never judgment.
It was the dominant society that was always judging me.
He was the dominant narrative, but it was our people's
and I say people's, like the collective subcultures that were

(01:00:07):
always like I see you in this journey. It's almost
like I feel like this healing journey is us remembering
who we really are if we didn't have all these
labels and all these false narratives and lies. And I
was thinking about when I was being like it took

(01:00:28):
me to get jumped by gangsters as a freshman to
stop being a bully because then I realized, like, you're
never I'm never going to be the strongest dude. I'm
never going to be the toughest and even if I was,
what is that doing? And I just my heart is
going out to so many men that feel that we

(01:00:48):
have to live this lie that we're never going to
be you know, we're never going to be the top.
And that's a symptom of capitalism anyways. Like we're coexisting,
we're interdependent. So the more that we can share that
So I think in the at least in the men's
circles that I've been a part of, I've been able

(01:01:11):
to sit with men of all backgrounds and all like identities,
and I think the thing is accepting that we're both
the victim and the oppressor at the same time. And
you use the analogy of the pouring of the cup
and knowing that we are the cup and having grace
because every moment is a choice of what we want

(01:01:32):
to pour in or pour out and shout out to
the wives and the friends who like kind of steer us,
hopefully in a loving way, but nonetheless like steer us like, hey,
you profess to be this where you're not modeling that
with your own son and me having the wherewithal not

(01:01:54):
all the time, but to not to get defensive and
be like heard, you know, So I just think right now,
the more that we could provide like real spaces of
non judgment and non shame, then we start to see
that we're so much more similar than we are different
in that this conversation and these thoughts that we're having

(01:02:16):
as fathers and as sons and as husbands and brothers,
like we're all having the same thing, but we just
don't talk about it. And that's what allows the dominant
narrative to like continue to operate and pour unfortunately into
too many of us.

Speaker 3 (01:02:30):
So that's dope, yeah, because I think the work that
you're doing and other people right having these men's circles,
being having this podcast, having this space, your book. You know,
I think at especially during undergrad right when I was
first being shown my own tendencies, right, I think that

(01:02:54):
the concept of having a space for men sounded just
so goofy and like like why like the whole world
is about men? Like what? But at the same time,
it's the intention, right, and and also the reality of
you know, I think Scott Gallahy is the one who
said it right, Like Trump and and the old right

(01:03:21):
knew that there was this space of vulnerable men who
needed to be organized and and we're basically being out
organized for young men by conservatives, by corporations, you know,
and and I and I think that's just proof, right,
the the fact that they were able to tap into

(01:03:42):
that pain in security, fear not knowing who they are,
but that the fact that you're doing this is a
great model, and I think it's showing that it's not
it's very much needed. And also there's a huge void
that needs to be filled. So, you know, thank you.

Speaker 2 (01:04:02):
For thank you. Before we're getting in the secondfive, I
do want to say, You've said something that's so important
for anyone like watching or listening, is how do we
teach ourselves a different vocabulary to call in rather than
call out men? And I feel like some of the
biggest mistakes I've made is thinking that I know more
than someone else, or that I'm right and someone's wrong,

(01:04:26):
this binary way of thinking about everything, gender, righteousness, judgment.
Like I'm just trying to throw all that out and
just continue to be like a student and a learner
because like to your point, the more we shame others,
how why would we expect them to change? You know,

(01:04:47):
And a lot of what this whole journey is teaching
me is we can just model, like what is a healthy, changing,
growing person look like, feel like, and do. And that's
why even when we're talking about your dad and having

(01:05:08):
these last moments with them and being like, Wow, what
an immense privilege that was for Tad to have that,
but then being okay with like, well, there's cameras in
this room. I want to cry, but I shouldn't cry
because then I'm less, no, ma'am, but I want Tad
to know that. Fuck, that's an amazing thing. And there's

(01:05:30):
no words to express this. So you know what, I'm
going to let the tear drop if the tear wants
to drop, and that's all I can do. And really
instead trying to model that so to reflect back to you,
I just think like we're both on this journey and
we're both trying to figure it out. And the more
honest we could be about that, I think that is

(01:05:51):
like the road map for a map that doesn't exist.

Speaker 3 (01:05:55):
So and actually having creating space and time to reflect
and talk about because I think that's the hardest thing.
Now what we're at the age we are, right, we
have kids, we have a career, we have a partner.
Now we also have older parents that we have to
take care of. So it's go, go, go, go go,

(01:06:17):
survival mode, survival mode, keep above water. And but once
you actually give that, you're doing, you know, for the
next two hours, that's we're in this space. Can't text,
can't do your work, have to talk to people face
to face, and then you know, because again when I
was I was just so surprised how quickly all these

(01:06:40):
dudes got crazy vulnerable, like right away, and I was like, Oh,
it's because it's been building up and they just need
an excuse, an invitation to process that. But I think
for me now it's that time and space now because
everything is just so go, go, go, go correct, and.

Speaker 2 (01:07:00):
If we can make that commitment to our own health
and well being in growth to be, you know, the
invitation is always there. I think what our role is
is that, Uh, what I've realized nationally or just internationally,
is like we don't know the spaces that exist, that
do exist because the dominant society doesn't want us to

(01:07:20):
have the time to be still and reflect. It want
capitalism wants us to burn out. Capitalism wants us to
die being just a cogg in this machine. And when
we're able to like just be still and literally breathe
alongside other men or other people. We get to like

(01:07:42):
have that space to grow because everything starts in the
imagination and we don't even have enough time to imagine
what is What wouldn't my life look like if I
actually lived the life I wanted outside of the boxes
that someone told me I was supposed to be. And
that's what space does. Like you said, so cool, Well

(01:08:03):
we'll transition because I know, well, this is just making
me h. I want to reflect and share that I
need and I want and I desire to make more
time with the one and only tad Akimora because I

(01:08:23):
grow as a human in a in a better way,
So one I have to make that commitment. So this
is the last part. It's called the Sacred Five and
it's I ask five questions and you respond back in
a in a word or a sentence, and it's our
way for listeners to practically here or get some stuff

(01:08:44):
that they can take with them. So the first question is, uh,
what are three things that make you feel safe, connected
and whole?

Speaker 3 (01:08:54):
Safe connected and whole. I mean there's you know, family, community, friends,
is the short answer, but specifically it's cuddling with my
daughter in the morning to wake her up, watching college

(01:09:16):
football on a Saturday, and going on a road trip
or trip with my family.

Speaker 2 (01:09:28):
As a father whose daughter is now older, just enjoy
every moment of those mornings, because, like your son, there
comes a point where they don't want to They don't
want to do that anymore, and it breaks your heart.
I remember walking my son to school and waving and
being like, don't walk into school, but he's walking. And

(01:09:48):
then there was a point where you just started going,
you're embarrassing me, that laddier papa. So enjoy those all right.
Second thing, what's one? What's a song book, a prayer
that brings you back to yourself?

Speaker 3 (01:10:12):
Well, I have two answers. Okay. When you said back
and it just reminds you of like taking me back
to my own inner child. And the first song that
came up in my head was Ayisha by another bad creation.
It's just an innocent but I guess presently I actually

(01:10:35):
learned this reading Michael Strahan's book Football Player of meditating
and just saying I am here and here is now,
and that's the constant struggle I'm trying to be is
to be present beautiful.

Speaker 2 (01:10:51):
What's one daily ritual or practice that grounds.

Speaker 3 (01:10:54):
You every morning? You know, right when I wake up,
I meditate for ten minutes, write in my gratitude journal,
and that's the way. End of the day too, is
right right in my gratitude journal, three things that I'm

(01:11:14):
grateful for or that happened in the day, and meditate, beautiful.

Speaker 2 (01:11:21):
What's one small action that listeners can take this week
on their healing journey?

Speaker 3 (01:11:27):
Small action? Drink try to drink a gallon of water
a day and go for a walk for at least
fifteen minutes.

Speaker 2 (01:11:41):
It's a great one. Those are great ones. Last one, Dad,
share a one line blessing or quote that inspires you.

Speaker 3 (01:11:52):
I mean just being here with you. This was reminding me,
taking me back. You know, when we first established this
bond was at UCLA. I took Peter Seller's class. The
class was I know this is way longer than one word,
but the class was called art as a Social Action,
and you know he said, never wait to make your masterpiece.

(01:12:15):
And as a twenty year old kid, that hit. But
then now as a forty five year old person who
just made a film about his dad in time for
his dad to see that that make mean something else beautiful?

Speaker 2 (01:12:35):
Well, Dad, this is the part where well I shared
things that really like moved me or touch me or
just lessons, And I guess I'm going to start with this.
It's amazing. I'm hopeful that we're at the halfway point
of our life right and we still have another half.

(01:12:56):
But wow, how amazing it it it is to bear
witness to you being forty five and creating a masterpiece.
Your film was my favorite film of this year, like
hands down. I mean even on the step On video
everyone I talked to him like, you gotta go see

(01:13:17):
this film. You gotta see this film, And not just
that it was a masterpiece of art, but it was
a masterpiece of how do you tell your father that
you love them in words and in non non words?
And wow, what a what a gift? And then to
share that. So first things versus you know Peter Saler's quote,

(01:13:45):
don't let don't you know, start working on in the
masterpiece now because you don't know how how short life is.
The second thing is, I'm so so inspired by your curiosity,
by your brilliance, by your willingness to keep asking the

(01:14:06):
questions because we don't know the answers, and sometimes we
stop ourselves because we don't have the answer, but the
answer is actually within the question. And even the fact
that you're like, hey, Mike, like I have this question
for you from day one, that's always been you. I'm
always wanting to be a better person and always being

(01:14:29):
intentional surrounding yourself with people and communities that will bring
out the greatest version of tad. And then the last
thing I just want to share is I thank you
for for modeling for me the kind of father I

(01:14:54):
want to be, and knowing that I have someone else
that when I do follow, which I will because it's
human nature, like I can call and you'll pick up
the phone and you'll actually give me advice or words

(01:15:14):
without any kind of like shame and just in fact
be like, hey, I'm I did the same thing. It's
all right. There's going to be another day, another moment too,
And you're one of the few men that I know
that will have the courage enough to say I'm sorry
and I'll do better next time. So I'll just end

(01:15:36):
by saying like the three most powerful words in my life,
which is I love you dearly, and I'm so grateful
for creator and our fathers for continuing to bring us
together in this like sacred dance that we have. And
I hope you know how much I and so many others,

(01:16:00):
including your father, love you because you were just you
are like our wildest dream come true. And so just
thank you for the decades of friendship and the decades
of artistry, and just for being the amazing person that
you are.

Speaker 3 (01:16:14):
Oh, thank you. And you know I love you too.
And you know I talked about it earlier, but you
know again, right, the culture we grew up in is
you know, I'll have your back. I'm going to back
you up anytime, you know, automatic like and I maybe

(01:16:35):
it was intentional, maybe it was not, But when I
needed someone the most, you know, driving driving back to
my house in the morning after spending a night with
my dad, not knowing if that was going to be
the last time I was ever going to see him
take a breath, your book was there and your voice

(01:16:58):
was there, and therefore, your father, your family, your community
was there at a time that I needed it the most.
And so I will always be grateful for that and
just know that, and I'm sure your book in this
podcast is doing that for so many people that you'll
never know, but yeah, I'll always specifically be grateful for

(01:17:24):
that moment as well as just you're always being the
big homie, you know, always being the role model and
doing it with creativity, with love and style. That makes
me want to continue trying to get better, trying to
ask ask those questions. And yeah, no, I love you

(01:17:46):
and I really appreciate you. And also just the serendipity
I mentioned it earlier, but right after this, I'm going
to drive with my family on a road trip up
to Pismo Beach, but we're going to go on one
on one. We're going to drive through oxnarda Ventura, so
we'll make sure to salute your pops. We're doing that.

Speaker 2 (01:18:06):
I appreciate it.

Speaker 3 (01:18:07):
Thank you so much, all right, man, love you love
me too.

Speaker 2 (01:18:12):
Sacred Lessons is a production of My Heart's Michael through
It our podcast network, Sacred Lessons Media, and the Prince Group.
For more of your favorite shows, visit the iHeartRadio app,
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