Sacred Lessons in History: Masculinity, Healing & the Courage to Remember

In this episode of Sacred Lessons, host Mike de la Rocha sits with Fernando Deveras, educator, father, and trauma-informed facilitator, for a powerful conversation on history, masculinity, and healing. Together, they explore how understanding our roots can transform the way we see ourselves, navigate fear, and show up as men in a rapidly changing world. From breaking down inherited ideas of masculinity to reclaiming culture as a source of strength, Fernando shares how remembering our past can become a pathway to healing for ourselves, our families, and our communities.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
What are the psychos Father's passed down that son they're
left to yield would mean a man was holding it
all together and learning how to let go. This is
a space to find the power to he transformed. I'm
Mike Dela Rocha. Welcome to sacred space. A man who

(00:22):
doesn't know who he is will spend his whole life
trying to prove he's a man. Welcome to sacred lessons
on Mike Dela Rocha. Today's guest is someone who has
dedicated his life to helping our communities understand the power
of history, identity, and education. Fernando de Vedaz is a
Mexican American son of immigrants, a father, educator, and community

(00:46):
organizer whose work helps thousands of people better understand the
connections between history politics in our everyday lives. Through his
platform and his work as a trauma informed facility with
LATINX parenting, Fernando's helping families reconnect with their culture and
heal intergenerational wounds. Because when we know who we are,

(01:10):
we stop trying to prove it, and in today's divided
political atmosphere, knowing who we are is important now more
than ever.

Speaker 2 (01:24):
Thank you, Humbled by that.

Speaker 1 (01:27):
I'm so excited that you're here. I feel like we
have known each other in other lifetimes, even though it's
our first time physically meeting. And I first want to
start by just saying thank you for the work that
you have dedicated and committed your life to. I've been
blessed to have amazing guests, And on the way here,

(01:48):
I was thinking, this one seems very special to me
because I feel like I'm going to sit down with
the younger version of my father, because he likes, similar
to you, was just a history buff. He taught Latin
American history and US history and Chicano's studies for over

(02:09):
forty years. And when I watched you online and just
knowing you, I'm like, this is probably how my dad
was when he was this age. Yeah, And so one, Papa,
I love you and I miss you. But two, it
just reminds me of this legacy that we have, of
a community of having these cultural bearers, if you will,

(02:32):
and history bearers to remind us. But we'll get into that,
but I just wanted you to know thank you so
much from the bout of my heart for who you
are and how you show up in the world.

Speaker 2 (02:43):
So yeah, again, Thank you again. I was listening to
some of the conversations that you've been having, and I
feel like I didn't have these kinds of conversations with
anybody when I was younger, and I didn't get to
even listen to other people online having these conversations. You know,
I was watching whatever was on TV. Whatever. All my
friends are watching Chappelle's show back in the day, and
it's like, I wish I had exposure to the kind

(03:05):
of conversations that you're bringing to the community. So thank
you for what you're doing.

Speaker 1 (03:09):
So let's jump in. For those that don't know who
Fernando is, what's the short version of how you got
to where you are today.

Speaker 2 (03:19):
I've been trying to condense my what a friend of
mine calls it the elevator pitch or you know, like
your mini bio. But I feel like what Leslie, my
partner Leslie, has taught me is that it's really important
to get to where we come from, what our ancestral
roots are. I'm not going to go like, you know,
five hundred years back, but to at least give a
sense of where my family comes from. So my family
came from Halisco, Mexico, a small town that no one's

(03:42):
ever heard of, maybe a couple thousand people living there.
And they came in the seventies. When my mom was
seven years old and she talked to me, I talked
to her a little bit about what her experience was
like when she came over here. She told me that
it was just a lot of isolation, a lot of
feeling lost. Families was struggling. She had ten siblings and

(04:03):
so it was just a lot of hardship for her
growing up. She met my dad in her early twenties
and had me and my brother's back to back. So
I have an older brother, younger brother, and it was
an upbringing that was very kind of I'd say for me,
it's a blur because my mom when when she had me,

(04:26):
she wanted ready to have me. My dad wasn't ready
to have me. And my dad he ended up getting
locked up when I was around two years old. Family
was in some messy business. He did about three years
in prison, and then when I was five years old,
he got deported to Mexico. According to my mom, I
saw him maybe like three times in that three year span,
and so when he goets sent to Mexico, my mom

(04:49):
actually decided to take me and my brother's with us
with her to go see him and go live with
them and to see if we could set up a
life over there. And long story short, didn't work out.
So after a couple of months, she ends up bringing
me my brother's back here and raising us among all
my theos and theists and just trying to make it work,
you know. And she was a hard working woman. I

(05:12):
always say that one of the things that I learned
from my mom was just how you can always make
it no matter how difficult the situation is, you can
always push through. I don't know what drove her, to
be honest, like, she was a very kind of a
quiet woman, didn't like to share too much about her
internal experience. But she never let up, and she never
showed any signs of what's the word of defeat. She

(05:36):
just always kept going. And she gave me my brothers
everything we needed. You know. If I wanted some new shoes,
she'd get them. Every new video game we got it,
dinner every night, home cooked, you know, And so she
she did the best she could. I didn't really have
a sense of identity though, so again, knowing that my
family came from Mexico, and knowing that my fam my
mom came as an undocumented child, and eventually they were

(05:58):
able to get amnesty in eighty six. She even got
her citizenship when she was older. I didn't know any
of that history. I didn't know any of that struggle,
and so I was just a kid going through school.
I didn't have my dad, but I did have father
figures because even my dad wasn't in the picture. I
had older uncles and older cousins who had helped me out.
They'd talk to me. You know, I don't know if
it helped me out is necessarily the right framing, but

(06:20):
they would. They had an influence and helping me to
grow into a young man, right. So they taught me
about music, They taught me about comedy art. I remember,
I had a lot of uncles that would draw, they'd
play music, and so I had that influence and they
take me to the park and play games and things
like that. They were my early role models of what
a man could be. I'd say they had what uncle

(06:40):
or what myster Jerry would call a wounded models. They
were wounded models for me. And so anyway I'm growing up,
I'm going to school, just doing what kids do and
not necessarily having that rootedness in my identity, in my history,
in my family's story, and I'm just kind of going
through the motions around high school and college is when

(07:00):
I started to dig into things like politics and history
and philosophy and psychology. And I was also working as
an after school instructor at the time, so working with
kids in the school setting. I later worked as a
student support PARA professional in a special needs classroom. So
really just kind of finding my route into the education space.

(07:21):
And so I go to college. I get my BA
in psychology because I was really invested in what those
classes we're talking about, and I'm working in the school settings,
and I say, you know what, I think, I want
to be a teacher. So after I get my BA, Oh,
I should backtraade as I'm getting my BA. The year
before I graduate, I became a dad. So when I'm
twenty two years old, my partner at the time we

(07:44):
had a baby. So I became a dad at twenty
two and now I'm trying to navigate trying to finish
off my educational career being a partner to my partner
at the time being a dad, never had an example
for myself of what it means to be a dead
And yeah, that was kind of like the early introduction

(08:06):
for me into trying to really hone in cet an
intention for who do I want to be? Who do
I want to grow into? And then I worked as
a middle school teacher for about five years where I
was teaching English classes, world history classes, and other kinds
of classes social emotional learning. And I'm learning as I go,
right because as I'm teaching these classes, I have to

(08:27):
do these deep dives and crash courses into what is
this material so that I can present it accurately from
my students. And in that process, I just became a
history fiend. Like you mentioned, you know, somebody who really
wanted to learn about how did we get to where
we are today and what can we learn from those stories.
I feel like I can keep going, but I want
to pause to for famuncation, for questions.

Speaker 1 (08:49):
There's a lot of things. First off, thank you for sharing,
because there's a lot of things I didn't know. It's
always like you know, the buyer you read online, it's
like the real story come out, and there's so much
I want to dig into but I guess maybe I'll
ask you a question to propel us, which is, obviously

(09:12):
this love of history was rooted, and you wanted to
know more about yourself and lineage and ancestry. But when
did it become like the shift from something like a
textbook to something personal?

Speaker 2 (09:25):
In school, I was a fine student, you know, I'd
get like c's and d's now and then. But the
teachers knew that I had what they'd like to say, potential, right,
so I was always one of those kids who did
well on the test, but I didn't really care about school.
I wasn't like somebody who wanted to be a great
student to learn all the material.

Speaker 1 (09:41):
Why was that because the teachers, the environment, or what
was the reason.

Speaker 2 (09:45):
I feel like I didn't have a personal connection to
the material that was being presented. But I also didn't
have adults in my life really who were emphasizing to
me the importance of education. Again, like my mom, she
did what she could, but she was working on time,
and so you know, she'd wake up early, make us breakfast,
send us to school, and then we'd wait outside on

(10:06):
the grass waiting for her to pick us up after
work and then get home it's dinner time, go to bed,
do it all over again. We never really had conversations
about the importance of education. This is what education can do,
how it can be used as a tool to get
you to where you're trying to go. So I was
just going to school because I had to go to school.
And then as I get older, I'm learning these stories

(10:26):
and you just feel moved when you see certain stories
about people resisting injustice, about people overcoming you know, unthinkable odds.
And so when I started to see those stories, it
started to piau my interest. But not only that, I'd
say too, I was a big science nerd. So I
remember in high school I had like an existential crisis

(10:47):
in my mind. It wasn't anything that triggered it necessarily.
I was just you know, wandering through the halls of
my apartment complex board and I remember just thinking about, like,
what's my purpose on this planet? Right? I'm this human
being in this spot on the map, on this big globe,
and this globe is orbiting around this solar system, and
the solar system is orbiting around the whole universe. And

(11:11):
I was like, what's the point? Why am I here?
And so I remember having those kinds of questions when
I was younger too, to really want to understand what
is this all about? How did we get here? So
I feel like those two factors, right, learning about science
and philosophy of what our role is here as human beings,
and then learning the history of what human beings have done,

(11:32):
I feel like those two things really catalyze my interest
in wanting to learn more.

Speaker 1 (11:38):
So from that, you've spoken a lot about how it's
critically important for us as people to know our history
and to know our culture. Why why is that link
so important for us as a species, you know, talking
about science and stuff, but why is this history piece

(11:58):
so important for our own growth? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (12:01):
So I feel like there's a lot of cliches that
people hear, you know, like if you don't know your past,
you don't know where you're going. But there's a lot
of truth to those kinds of things because I know
that if you are born in the world today, Let's
say you're born in you know, our corner of the
world here in the US, and you're just growing up

(12:22):
and absorbing whatever is being thrown your way. You know,
you're watching TV, you're playing games, you're watching things online,
you're on TikTok and YouTube and whatnot. There's a certain
there's a certain message that you are absorbing unconsciously about
what it means to be successful in this life, what

(12:43):
it means to be a good person, what it means
to have value. If you aren't rooted in anything else,
then you'll get pulled in whatever direction you're being pulled
by these algorithms that don't care about you, that don't
care about our collective well being. Even I feel like
if you can root yourself in that history, know that
you are not just an individual here in this point

(13:05):
in time, but you are a descendant of a lineage
of people who have existed for thousands of years, hundreds
of thousands of years, and have a history, have traditions,
have ways where we have been in connection with the
natural world, been in connection with each other. Then it
starts to shift your thinking about what does it mean
to be a good person? Right? Does it mean that

(13:27):
you have a billion dollars in the bank. Does it
mean that you have all kinds of fancy clothes and cars?
Not necessarily right? I feel like that's one of the
big reasons where I feel like, not just the history
of working class history, revolutionary history, but just human history.
Knowing what has led us to this point, that's key.
But then in terms of like the working class history

(13:47):
and the revolutionary history, we have all kinds of struggles
and obstacles that we're facing today. I remember when I
was talking with myster Jerry Dale, he mentioned, like we
have struggles today, We've always had struggles. It might have
a different shape, it might have different names and faces,
but the struggles have always been here. If you think
about colonization five hundred years ago, if you think about

(14:07):
chattel slavery for the one hundreds of years that existed here, Discrimination, prejudice,
exploitation that's taken place here in this country all around
the world, that's existent existed for as long as we've
written down history, right, But there have always been people
who have resisted that. There have always been people who
have fought back. And the reason that we have as
much opportunity and privileges as we have today is because

(14:31):
those people struggle. And so what is our role in
carrying on that struggle and what lessons can we learn
from their struggle? I feel like those are the real
key components that I try to take away from the history.

Speaker 1 (14:42):
Yeah, and a lot of my elders have reminded me
that it's not that we're learning something new, like you're saying, Fernando,
we're remembering what have been these cycles of the past,
because there's these patterns that history. Like, the more that
you study history, you see patterns, And so what is
ho happening in America right now? It is not new.
There's new forms of maybe oppression that's utilizing like advanced

(15:06):
technology and surveillance and what have you. But the emotions
and the attempt to erase, under, colonize, and or kill
it's not nothing new. But on the flip side, folks
coming together is also nothing new. So remembering these practices,
remember these historical conditions that can help inform who we

(15:30):
are today and who we will be in the future.
And so my others always say, hey, Mike, just it's
a process of remembering who we are and what we've
survived and what we have built.

Speaker 2 (15:41):
Yeah. Right, Yeah, I think something that I've learned a
lot from Leslie's work and mister Jerry and others is
just that it's a recovery process. Like you said, it's
remembering because the only reason that we are feeling so
lost is because we were disconnected from that. And so
what can we do to re connect and undo those

(16:02):
systems that disconnected us in the first place and create
new systems or to rebuild from the systems that were
here before and just evolve with those systems.

Speaker 1 (16:13):
Before going into this other conversation, I actually want to
tease out something we're talking about around our personal story
and history. And it's hard for a lot of us
men to share our story, like our personal like even

(16:33):
with you, and I could feel we talked about in
the energy of like I'm still trying to figure out
my elevator pitch, like you said, but your elevator pitch
is actually history. And I wonder if you can tease
out sometimes it's easier for us to talk about obviously
macro historical moments, but it's hard for us men to

(16:54):
talk about our own story and why do you think
that is? And is that true? And resonate with you also?

Speaker 2 (17:00):
Okay, I think yeah, when this question comes up, I am.
My brain works in a way where I can dive
deep into a book or a documentary, a documentary about
things that fascinate me and interest me and I'll learn
all the little details and all the niks and crannies,
and I get excited to absorb that information and process

(17:23):
it so I can share it with other people. I
think when it comes to my personal story, and maybe
this is the struggle with other men out there, but
for me, it's personally not having had the time to
reflect on what that personal story was. You know, I'm
thirty three years old and only recently have I had
the chance to talk to my mom about what was
her upbringing? Like, what was it like when you were

(17:45):
younger growing up here in the US. What was it
like when you became a mom and had to raise
me and my brothers while my dad's locked up, When
my dad gets deported, trying to go to Mexico to
make it work, coming back here as a sin a
mom and trying to make it work, what was that
journey like? What was I like for you in that time?

(18:06):
You know what kind of kid was I? And so
for me, it's the fact that there's lots of textbooks
I can read and lots of speeches I can listen
to to learn about this story and that story. But
when it comes to my story, I have to invest
that time and that energy to try to tease that
story out from my family, and for different reasons, we

(18:27):
just sometimes don't make that time. I know that for myself,
I've only had maybe three or four conversations with my
mom where I really dig into our story. With my dad,
I've had maybe one. Like I'm still in contact with him.
If I want to call him, I can, but I say,
it's something that I struggle to prioritize.

Speaker 1 (18:46):
What is the what is that blockage that's you can
call him anytime, but there's obviously something that prevents you.
Is it that you're wanting to get to the point
where you're okay to ask those questions or what.

Speaker 2 (19:01):
Is I'd say for me on a very practical level,
it is time. It's I feel myself prioritizing other areas
right now with my immediate family, with my son who
I'm trying to raise, with my partner who I'm trying
to build a life with, and that we you know,
we're running our business and telling our stories online, and
we see the urgent need for us to do our

(19:22):
work out in the community, and so I feel like
the digging into my own personal story takes a back burner.
For that, and I feel like, at least in the
case of my dad, it also has to do with
the fact that there's a little bit of a sense
of not resentment, because I don't feel personal resentment, but
I feel like I've made it this far without that story.

(19:46):
Do I need that story now? But again, as I'm
getting older, I'm like that story is not going to
be around forever. So if I don't make the time
to get that story now, when I might not get it,
you know.

Speaker 1 (20:02):
Well then let me. That's like a good subway around masculinity,
and a lot of your content recently has really been
around teasing out when we don't know who we are
as men, and when the ground beneath us is unsettled,
unsettled and unsettling, and when gender norms are shifting, and

(20:27):
when a lot of men are feeling power powerless and
feeling isolated, that's when these extreme forms of harm happen
in you know, outdated notions of manhood, which is like
we've got to control everything and we got to know everything.
It's preventing us from really being our full authentic selves.

(20:51):
But I wonder if we could tease this out, like
how you've been talking about masculinity in the context of
what's happening in America globally, Like you know, you've been
You've been talking about it a lot, and I want
you to just tease out and share like your thoughts
on that.

Speaker 2 (21:07):
Yeah, So in terms of are we like talking specifically
about how men become the kind of men that they
are because we don't.

Speaker 1 (21:16):
Have well, like for example right now, like you're you're
a historian.

Speaker 2 (21:24):
You know, I want to caution on that too, And
I feel like this is just something that I want
to clarify for people. So my background, my pedigree, you know,
I have a BA in psychology, and then I have
my multiple subject teaching credential. Where I was teaching at
a middle school, I was teaching world history in English
and things like that. I'd say, what's the word armchair historian?

Speaker 1 (21:43):
You know, like yes and yes, and you know as
much about history as anyone else that I've come across. Okay,
so the degree doesn't necessarily you know, they say you're
either a boy or a man, and it doesn't mean
about age. It means about wisdom. You have a lot
of wisdom, thank you. So I will shit. I always
say you are my historian. How about that? So as

(22:04):
my historian, what I'm trying to get at is that
when we don't know our history, when we don't know
our cultural practices and traditions, then we start to act
out in very violent, harmful waste for ourselves and others.
And it you know, it goes back to your dad, right,
Like you're prioritizing your immediate family, but your lineage, your

(22:26):
DNA is your father and where he's from in Mexico.
But you don't know that history either. Fully, you see
what I'm saying. And so that's kind of what I'm
trying to get out. There's like the role of history
and knowledge of ancestrals. Who are we When we don't know,
then you see stuff like what's happening now a lot
of men enlisting in ice, or a lot of men

(22:50):
harming themselves and their partners or their children or what
have you.

Speaker 2 (22:54):
Yeah, Okay, So I'd say, in terms of my understanding
of masculine and why I've been able to step into
the sort of framework of masculinity that I have now,
it comes from being able to look at men as
a whole and being able to look at our culture
as a whole, and I agree. I feel like if

(23:16):
I was to dig into my personal story, my family story,
there's definitely lots that I could gain from that. But
I think, you know, I'm grateful to again like people
like my Stor, Jerry Dale and Luis Rodriguez who have
done the work of going through that darkness themselves and
uncovering the stories of men from all over the world
and really tapping into what has led us to becoming

(23:38):
this distorted type of men that we see, and so
like when it comes to I remember, I was just
sharing a story that I read from Louis's book Always Running,
where he talks about how he used to like to
play with dolls with the I can't remember if it
was the Primas or the girls in the neighborhood, but
he was playing with dolls. Some kids from school walk by,

(24:01):
they see him playing, and they say he's a sissy,
he's a girl, this and that, And the next day
they beat him up. And what did that do? That
turns him into this distorted version of himself where he's
that I can't enjoy play in that way anymore. I
can't connect with these girls in that way anymore. That
wholesome way. Now I have to become this strong, cold faced,

(24:24):
violent creature to defend myself, to secure myself, to just
have safety. And what Master Jerrydale talks about is how
this culture where those boys walked by in the first
place and saw that feminine aspect of him as weak,
that that is a response to this lineage that we
have of men not being able to express themselves fully,

(24:47):
not being able to tap into their emotions because if
they did, it was a vulnerability for their wellbeing, for
their family's wellbeing. And the ways that men who did
exhibit that formal weakness were brutalized, you know, throughout history.
So I think being able to uncover that history of
what has led men to distort themselves in that way

(25:07):
helps to offer clarity for the men today who have
this idea that culture is rigid, culture is frozen in time.
The way we are today is the way we've always been,
and that's just not the reality. We've been presented, a
distorted version of reality. We've been presented this idea that
you know, men are just cold blooded warriors who have
to defend and protect and provide them that's it. But

(25:28):
that's not the whole picture.

Speaker 1 (25:30):
It's not the full spectrum of the reality of who
we've been. Let me ask you as a historian. You know,
I've been teasing this out because you know, I'm a
lover of words, and I can't find the language yet
because even in me asking the question, I'm asking it
because I know men are listening. But even the term man,

(25:53):
well man, those are constructs, right like we are people
that have both feminine and masculine energies and everything in between.
And I have so many stories of folks that come
on the podcast or just that I read. They'll have
that similar doll experience as a child, or it was
like playing with like you know, Teddy Bears or whatever

(26:16):
it was, whatever brought you joy, But there was a
moment and an experience where another man said, what are
you doing? That's not you're supposed to be doing, even
though that brought you the most joy. And I think
right now what the young people are really inspiring and
people throughout history, really those that I look up to
have been confronting that I don't want to call it

(26:39):
a lie, but confronting that idea that you have to
live in a binary that you have to like operate.
It's either black or white and there's no gray. And
the older I'm getting, I'm just being I don't care.
If I want to, you know, paint my fingers pink,
then I'm gonna paint my fingers pink, you know. And
I've been just trying to to sit with this with

(27:01):
my primos in particular that I will accept you, because
I know society will not accept you because of you know,
colonization and everything else. But like, what do you tell
men that are like, nah, I can't do that because
I will be labeled assists you, or I will be
labeled My manhood would be taken away, even though to
me it's like if you're more who you are, that's

(27:23):
the biggest sign of strength is having the courage to
be you. What do you tell men that are struggling
with that?

Speaker 2 (27:30):
Yeah, something that really helped me early on, I think
to start to unpack that because again, I grew up
in an environment where I remember being in middle school
and all my friends were I want to be bloods
and crips, so like they're rock and pro club maybe
blue or red, and if you're ready on that side,
you're blow on the side and we're going to go
have a rumble after school and body blows in the bathroom.

(27:50):
I remember growing up and having that idea of this
is how I need to show up, you know. I
remember buzzing my head in seventh grade because that's what
all my friends were doing, and this is how you
have to show up. I remember my cousins and my uncles,
you know, they'd call you all kinds of names if
you exhibited any kind of feminine characteristics, right, they just

(28:10):
beat that out of you. And what helped me to
start to unpack that was, honestly, there was some exposure
to media. Right, so I'm watching some things on the
TV and in movies that helped me to see, oh,
I can show up in these ways too. So I
think media plays a significant role. It can also offer
a distorted version. Right when I went to college and
I started taking classes on psychology and sociology and starting

(28:33):
to under have that vocabulary of constructs. This is a
social construct. How many young men in middle school and
high school have that vocabulary to understand that you are
showing up in this way because there is a social
construct that is writing a script for you that says
these are the boxes you have to check in order
to be valuable as a man. If you don't have

(28:56):
that vocabulary, then you're just going through the motions because
you see, that's what everyone else is doing. I feel
like if we are trying to reach young men who
are feeling stuck in that and maybe again, I feel
like a lot of this is unconscious. A lot of
young men are stuck and they don't know that they're stuck.
You know, it's like you know, you're a fish in
water and you don't know what water is. And I

(29:16):
feel like if we want to reach those men. What
I've learned too from working with organizations like Neutral Ground
and Project Kinship, who do a lot of work similar
to Humbo.

Speaker 1 (29:25):
Industries, right, big, big shout out to Steve Kemp.

Speaker 2 (29:27):
Yeah, yeah, And so these organizations they're working with individuals
who are in these spaces where you are not able
to express yourself in that way. You're very limited in
the way you're able to express yourself. And they'll tell you,
like you don't tell someone who's in that space like
that they have to change who they are overnight, or
that they have to leave that collective space where they
feel safe because if they do that's a threat to

(29:51):
their well being. So how do you walk them to
the point where they're able to reflect and have that
internal transformation. That's a long journey. But I think something
that I've learned in the work that we do is
it has to be a collective experience. It's not something
that you do where I'm going to pull you out
in isolation, fix you, fix you, and then I'll do

(30:11):
the next one. No, We're going to find time to
sit and circle with each other and I'm going to
see you, You're going to see me. I'm going to
share my story, You're going to share your story, and
the truth is going to come out in that and
we're going to see that these are social constructs. We're
going to see that we are feeling wounded by these
social constructs ourselves. And so if we want something better,
what can we do collectively to create something better?

Speaker 1 (30:32):
So the three things that I really want to just name,
which is so powerful is one is that as a
man or someone as a debt identifies as a man,
I am not alone in this. So the more that
I understand history and the context and the social constructs,
the more I can see that I have been conditioned

(30:53):
to act, think, and behave a particular way, but that
my healing is always happening when I'm in a community
of men and that aren't necessarily calling me out, but
calling me in and modeling. This is how you can
feel comfortable in your own skin. And guess what, the
more that you understand history, the more you'll know that
the greatest warriors, for example, were the ones that embodied

(31:15):
and accepted all of their energies and all of their
identities and weren't prioritizing one over the other. And so
let me ask you with that, because another identity we
both share is being fathers. And I wonder you becoming
a father that shift the way that you looked at
manhood or just history in general, and how given your

(31:37):
own relationship with your own father, like, how did that
impact the way that you were going to be a
parent to your son.

Speaker 2 (31:45):
So when I became a dad, I would say I
never really gave any intent at that point in my life,
twenty two years old, I hadn't given any intentional thought
to the kind am I growing into the kind of
man that I want to become. It wasn't that kind
of conscious thought. I'd say, at that point in my life,
I was still I was still somewhat stuck in those

(32:05):
constructs of striving to be the kind of man that
I've been shown as the example I'm supposed to be.
You know, get a nice job that pays you well
and helps you to provide for yourself. And if you
have a family. Now you're a dad, take care of
your family. Check that box. You know, physically fit and strong,
so make sure you're getting some workout in you have

(32:26):
your partner, your girlfriend, your wife, get a girlfriend, partner,
wife in there. You check that box too, Okay, now,
what right? I feel like I was still in that
kind of mindset. When I became a dad and I
had my son, then I had to check off another
box of what does it mean to be a dad?
What does it mean to show up for this child?

(32:48):
And in that point I feel like I had some
freedom because I didn't feel confined by this idea that
you know, the mom has to change the diapers, the
mom has to cook the food. My partner at the time,
we had a very mutual agreement that we're gonna do
whatever we need to do to take care of this child.
If I'm able to do this. If I have the

(33:08):
capacity to do this and you have the capacity to
do that, then let's do it. You know, it wasn't
confined by man does this, woman does that. And then
as my son got older, I had that additional reflection
of what kind of man am I raising? Not just
what kind of man do I want to be or
what kind of father do I want to be, but
what kind of man do I want him to become?

(33:31):
And that was something where I feel again, I was
playing off of what I had known at that time.
I hadn't read any books, I hadn't done any deep
dive into this work. You know, I always say like
I wish I had known about people like mister Jerytale
and lu Strodriguez and others that you've spoken to on
your podcast. I wish I'd known about them when I
was in high school or even when I had just

(33:51):
had my son, so that I could have that wisdom
to build from. But I was really just going off
of what I knew from the examples i'd had, And so,
you know, I want to make sure he's confident, he's happy,
and that he's strong and whatever it is, you know,
whatever kind of man I wanted to be at that point.

(34:11):
I'm going to help him get there faster so he
doesn't have to trip over those roadblocks that I tripped over.
But then as I got older, I realized, oh, I
have some learning to do it too. I have a
lot of gaps in my own development. So how am
I going to teach this young man to be a
man if I don't even know how to be a man?
So I feel like that was a shift that I had.
You know, we mentioned earlier about the decolonized the mind hat.

(34:34):
That wasn't language that I would normally use before I
met Leslie. Before Leslie, I was very much in the
political realm, the organizing realm, the people power realm. And
when I met Leslie, she introduced me to the realm
of healing work, talking about reindigenizing our practices and decolonizing

(34:54):
our ways. Right, And so when I met Leslie, she's
teaching me about what intergenerational trauma is. What wounds do
we carry from the experiences that our families had that
they passed down to us unwittingly, unconsciously, and how can
we heal from that so that we don't pass it
down to the next generation. So when I met Leslie,
that's when I really started doing to do the internal

(35:14):
work on myself. And now I feel like, you know,
my relationship with my son, we have a great relationship.
Any relationship, that's something else that we talk about. In
any relationship, you're going to have conflict, You're going to
have growth, You're going to have moments of reflection where
you're going to see, oh, I do have continuing work
to do, but I feel like I'm on a better
I'm in a better footing right now when it comes

(35:36):
to being able to reflect on the kind of man
I want to be to help my son to become
the man that he's going to be.

Speaker 1 (35:42):
I want to honor two things. One, I want to
honor Leslie because, like you, it was my partner who
modeled what does healing look like? Because, like you, my
script that I was raised and in doctrinate with was
that I'm not supposed to heal. I'm supposed to just work.

(36:06):
I'm supposed to just protect and not handle or or
deal with my own trauma. That was something that we
don't do. And I would see my my my wife
going at therapy and start to unpack a lot of
the childhood trauma, and I was like, wow, like I

(36:27):
saw the growth and it sounds similar to Leslie. You know,
to our partners, I want to say thank you, because
we don't live in a society where it's normalized for
men to talk openly about like you know, I'm going
through it, I need help, or hey, how do you
do this? Because I don't know and I'm at the
age where like I'm asking more questions than knowing the answers,

(36:50):
you know. But I also want to honor you for
being open enough to receive that invitation from Leslie to
like start to like connect the dots right from history too,
healing too, inter generational wisdom and all of that, so
that we could be better fathers for our sons and
show them a different way of showing up and being expressive,

(37:11):
you know. And so with your son, how how are you?
Given everything we're talking about and you know, your son's eleven,
mine's about to be thirteen. So you know, I'm personally
struggling with trying to parent my son in ways that
I wasn't parented because you know, my father and my

(37:32):
mom we didn't have conversations about sex, or we didn't
have conversations about body or consent or any of these stuff.
So I get uncomfortable even just talking about it. But
how are you being a different father to your son
than your father?

Speaker 2 (37:50):
Yeah, well, I feel like it's easy for me considering
that my dad weren't there, you know. So it's not
like it's a it's a what you call a blessing
and a curse because I don't have those cycles and
those patterns that I have to unlearn necessarily that I
would have gotten from my dad. But I also don't
have template that I can build from. So I feel
like when it comes to my son, you know, again,

(38:13):
I think back to the examples that I did have
in my family. You know, they were spread out and
far between, but I do remember things like my uncle's
picking me up from school and like throwing me up
in the air and just like laughing in front of
all my friends. You know, I'm feeling good. So those
are the kind of parts that I bring to raising
my son. I want him to know what it's like
to be able to laugh and play with his dad, right,

(38:36):
So those are the kind of things that I bring
in same with like again, learning about music and art,
that's something that I made sure to share with my son.
That's something that I appreciated from the men that I
had in my life in terms of can you rephrase
the question you were saying, like, what is it that

(38:58):
we're doing differently? Yeah?

Speaker 1 (38:59):
Yeah, I mean you know, you and Leslie have this
incredible platform LATINX parenting, which didn't exist when I first
became a father, And it's so beautiful because what I
really want to affirm you in is like when you
first walked in, like my father, like Louis Rodriguez when

(39:19):
he walked in for this for his podcast, he walked
in with the pile of books, and this is the
legacy of what we are part of a legacy of,
at least in this situation. These men mentors, fathers that
loved history, that knew we were connected to history. But

(39:40):
what you and your partner have created is something that
is so important. Is LATINX parenting resource, a platform, a
hub so we don't feel alone as Latino parents. So
we are understanding there's not one way, there's not a handbook.
There's no handbook for this, and whatever you're going to
teach on there, it may work for you, but it
wouldn't work for me. So I guess my question is

(40:01):
and what I want to thank you for. It's like,
you're not just a critique. You don't just critique history.
You're building history. You're building something that is a part
of historical record to help us Brown people be better parents.
And so my question is with that, what are you
learning from that platform and the stories that you're interacting

(40:22):
with others and stuff like that.

Speaker 2 (40:24):
Yeah, so I want to kind of hone in on,
you know, what I try to focus on obviously, you know,
talking about the experience for men and fathers. What I'm
learning is that there are so many men who are
for whatever reason and for various reasons, they're reluctant to
have that conversation about are we on the right path?

(40:48):
You know? And this is something that Leslie taught me
through the work that she does, is when you are
coming into a space, when you're coming into a community
and you are shining a light on some of the
areas where we may be hurting each other or hurting ourselves,
there's going to be a defensiveness because you're coming at

(41:08):
my identity, You're coming at my family, You're coming at
my culture, my neighborhood, and there's a reluctance to confront
that because to confront that is to almost insult your family,
to insult your community. What I am really learning from
the the the work that we do is there are
ways to have these conversations with men uh where they

(41:32):
recognize that we're not coming at you. We're not trying to,
you know, flip your table over and say that you're
doing everything wrong. But we do need to have a
reckoning to recognize that we're not doing this because it's
good for us. We're doing it because it's what we know.
And if you know more, you can do better. I

(41:53):
think that what I try to do with the conversations
that I have online. You know, there was a video
that I shared recently of some dudes who are in
the downtown area in our city in Santana, And I
know where that comes from, right, I know what leads
a man to take his shirt off in the middle
of a busy street and puff his chest up and
threaten to beat somebody up. There's a lot to unpack

(42:15):
in that. And if I just come in here and
say this is toxic masculinity, I'm not addressing the situation
I'm just slapping a label on it and hoping to
shame you away from that. But if I come in
and say, this is something that has been done to
us and it's not your fault, necessarily, you have a

(42:38):
responsibility to reflect and decide if this is what you
want for yourself. But it's not necessarily your fault, and
it's not something that you're going to fix on an
individual level. It's something that we all need to talk about.
Like I was saying earlier, I think that when it
comes to men, to bring it back to what you
were saying earlier, I've learned that the fathers in our

(43:00):
community struggle to show up for their kids again because
there's so much about the system that we live under
that makes it hard for them to show up. If
you are a provider for your family and you're waking
up at five am and you're not coming home till
the sun goes down, and you're tired, and you're beat
down from work, and you're stressed about bills, and you're

(43:22):
carrying that intergenerational trauma that you don't even know is there,
that you haven't had time to process, and now you're
trying to raise a child. How are you going to
do that? How are you going to have the room
to do that? Who's helping you to do that? I
think that one of the things that I really try
to bring into the work is that recognition that if
we really want men to heal, it can't just be

(43:42):
here's a book, go read it and do better. It
has to be what are we doing to create the infrastructure,
the foundation, and the systems that will support the men
so that they can do better, so that they have
the room to breathe.

Speaker 1 (43:55):
You know, yeah, I love this. This This is the
crux of this conversation. And given your work, Fernando, are
their tools for me or any of the listeners to
have a compassionate enough heart to meet men where they
are without judgment or shame that you've seen, allow men

(44:22):
to least consider or be curious of a different way
of behaving. Does that make sense?

Speaker 2 (44:27):
Yeah? You know, I want to say the work that
I do, I feel like is the work that I
do online is more to kick off the conversation. You know,
there are powerful organizations like we mentioned Homeboy Industries, Neutral
Ground Project Conship, National Compilers Network that are doing that
one on one work with the men on the ground,
and I feel like there's a lot of wisdom that

(44:48):
we can learn from the work that they do. What
I would say, at least in the work that I do,
is really just creating a space, a safe space for
people to see other people and to hear from other people.
So when I make a video and I say, look
at what these men are doing, and now here's my
take on it, and you know, let's meditate on that

(45:10):
for a little bit. And now you've seen the comments
hundreds of men and women who are sharing their experiences
saying I see this in my family, I see this
in my friends, I see this in my neighborhood, and
I wish we could heal from that. And so if
I'm a man and I identify with whatever behavior is
being exhibited here with the dude puffing his chest up,

(45:30):
and I say, that's me. And then I read these
comments of people who are not bashing on you, who
are not trying to say that you're an immoral human being,
but to say I wish that you, I wish that
you could heal, you know, then that has to trigger
some reflection. But again that's just the jumping off point.

(45:53):
That's just to start the conversation and then again, what
can we do so you know, in your immediate.

Speaker 1 (45:58):
Family or chosen family, Because I'm just trying to take
it back to like someone that's listening that may not
have a platform like you do, but is watching and
seeing your analysis and contextualizing the behavior of a lot
of us men. What are things that you've seen? I

(46:24):
guess I'm trying to get at is like taking it
from the digital world to the to the in person world,
and what are tips? I mean it could be as
simple as like don't react, listen or you know, say, hey,
you know the way that you showed up? I understand
because I would show up the same way. Because the

(46:47):
only thing that you feel you have control over right
now in a world that seems uncontrollable, is you trying
to be more masculine take off your shirt and put
your chest out and all that stuff. But hey, did
you did you ever consider that this isn't someone wants
you to act this way, that there's another way?

Speaker 2 (47:05):
You know?

Speaker 1 (47:06):
That's what I'm trying to get out, like everyday things
that like a listener can take from that.

Speaker 2 (47:10):
Yeah, well I'll start with my personal experiences as an
educator so that's something else that I feel like we
need to address at some point is the impact that
male educators have in the classroom by being an example
for young men, something that I was able to do
when I was teaching. I remember there'd be boys that
were getting into all kinds of scraps, you know, over

(47:33):
someone said something about me on Instagram, somebody said something
about me on Snapchat, and then they'd bring it to
school and they fight in the bathroom or they fighting
on the lawn. And I tried to create space where
I would talk to you know, student A and student
B and say what happened, tell me what went down,
and have that restorative practice where we can say, there's
another way to settle this right. We don't have to

(47:54):
resort to calling each other out on social media or
fighting in the bathroom. We can sit down and hear
each other out and see each other on a human level.
And that I feel like did have an impact because
I would see these boys, who again would have no
problem just throwing fists in the bathroom, are now able
to sit down, shake hands and resolve things in that way.

(48:16):
I think when it comes to the adults in my life,
you know, I'd say this is something that I'm still
working on because as much as you know you may
have a following online in social media, it doesn't necessarily
translate to that interpersonal impact. You know, the people closest
to us may not necessarily see the following size and say, oh,

(48:39):
you're onto something here, because they may still see you
as you know, the little cousin, the little nephew. But
I will say I have seen growth in people in
my family, especially the men, when I have had that
time to just sit down and share my honest reflection
about what I've learned in my process trying to reflect
on things that I need to grow on and giving

(49:01):
them the room to do the same. Right, So I
have seen some of that. I think what I really stress,
whether it's in the political organize, the political organizing work,
or the healing work, is don't underestimate the power that
you have with the relationships that you have. Because I
can make one hundred videos, uh not everyone's going to
see those videos, And even if they did see those videos,

(49:23):
it's not going to have the same impact as a
one on one conversation with somebody that you trust, somebody
that you have history with and So if you are
on a path where you are growing and you're wanting
to become a better version of yourself, just extending that
invitation to your friend, to your cousin, to your brother
is going to open up a door for them where
they feel safe enough to okay, maybe explore that for themselves.

Speaker 1 (49:44):
I love that, and we're both we have more and
more questions than we do answers, as every great historian
will tell you. Yeah, yeah, but that's kind of that.
That's that's what it is, because I'm learning like you are,
and I'm making mistakes, and but I'm realizing in a

(50:04):
society that needs macro changes it the one thing we
do have power over is our own ability to make
choices with those that we are in relationship with, and
not to shame someone into changing, but just to invite
them into my story. This is what I'm going through,

(50:26):
this is what I'm thinking, this is how I'm feeling,
and I want to feel differently because of X, Y
and Z. And maybe that invitation of you sharing your
story or allows someone to consider or reflect on, like
you said, something that they are doing or something that
they want to stop doing and be something different. And
I think what I'm starting to really realize through all

(50:47):
this is it is always about the one on one relationship,
but the one on one relationship is part of a community,
like you were saying, so we have to be in
partnership relation with others in order to heal. But also,
like back to remembering, there are certain cultural practices and
traditions to allow us to have these hard conversations that

(51:08):
society doesn't want us to have. There's the reason why
we have rights of passages for different ages as men. Right,
And my son's about to thirteen, and I'm very mindful
of like I need to honor that, Like that's an
initiation into a different part of who he is as
a person, and I want to do something for him
to see. These are all the people in your life

(51:31):
that if you don't feel comfortable talking to your mom
or dad, these people you can talk to. And if
you ever needed anything material, spiritual, whatever, these people will
take care of me. This village, this tribe is yours.
You aren't alone no matter what happens. If I'm not
physically here, you have someone. Just like you talked about
your upbringing, You're like Mike, you know, I didn't know

(51:53):
my dad, But I had father figures, I had theos,
I had neighbors, and it's just remembering that because but
like a lot of people are always asking me these
questions like well, what do I do with my partner
or what do I do with my son? And I'm like,
just work on yourself and invite them by modeling your
own journey. And it's not linear. Yeah, we'll go back

(52:15):
and forth.

Speaker 2 (52:16):
Now, I think something that something else that Leslie's stresses
and the work that we do is you can't set
that expectation that people are going to live up to
whatever bar you're setting. You can open the door, you
can invite them in, you can lead by example, but
if you're holding yourself, you know, if you're holding your
breath waiting for them to become the kind of person
that you know they can become, or that you feel

(52:37):
they should become, then that's not fair to them.

Speaker 1 (52:40):
Correct. Well, since I started this by saying that I
was looking at my younger version of my father, and
it just hit me right now that my father had
the hugest beard, like yeah, it's yeah, it's just it's

(53:02):
a beautiful thing to see how we live in other
people's bodies, And if I'm sitting across from my father,
then that would mean that you are sitting across from
your father, that you are my father and I am yours.
And if this was still happening because your father is alive,

(53:26):
would you ask your father anything or tell him anything?

Speaker 2 (53:30):
I think when I think of my dad, and like
I said, I've had conversations with my dad, not anything
too in depth. What I would want to ask my
dad is how does he feel about the decisions he
made as a dad in the different families that he started,

(53:53):
you know, because he's somebody who had a family before
he met my mom, had a family with my mom,
a couple families after my mom. And I know that
wasn't a conscious decision. I know that's something that, for
whatever reason, he felt was acceptable at the time. And

(54:14):
now he's an old man and he's able to look
back on that. I'd want to know how does he
feel about what that experience has taught him. I feel
like there's a lot to impact there.

Speaker 1 (54:25):
And my invitation for you is to call him, or
better yet, to go No. I definitely ask that question.

Speaker 2 (54:34):
Yeah, I definitely did make that trip.

Speaker 1 (54:36):
Because you'll still talk to your father when he's transitioned over.
But it's just a different thing when you're in person
and able to talk to him like this and see
his eyes his soul, and he may not have the
words to express, but I know that you'll feel expression

(55:00):
because we're not taught that. So it's just an opening.

Speaker 2 (55:05):
You know. I'll add one thing that I did have
a conversation with him a couple of years back, and
something that I saw after relaying the details from his
conversation that I had with him with my mom was
he he's still not necessarily comfortable facing his own truth.
And so I feel that is maybe another barrier is

(55:27):
is wondering if I'm in a space where I can
carry the weight of helping him to reach a point
where he can face his truth and then be able
to receive that myself. You know, that's a that's a
it's a labor of love. But it's something that I
feel like, like you were saying earlier, there's there's a
lot there is.

Speaker 1 (55:49):
Well, I will say shout out to you and Leslie again,
keep mentioned Leslie. But what I am embracing, accepting every
moment I'm my life more and more each day is
that our choice to heal ourselves as men, that I
am literally healing not just for myself, not just for

(56:10):
my son, but for my father who has passed away,
because similar to the way that you just subscribed to
your father, my father, we all want to heal. We
all want to feel a sense of connection belonging. But
like we said, like not just in doctrination, but like
if you're waking up every day at five and coming
home at ten and then trying to just balance life

(56:32):
and everyone's telling you don't heal because you don't have
time that's secondary, then what does that do to your body?
And I know in my conversation with my father recently,
I'm able to talk to him. Hey, Papa, I know
we didn't get to have this conversation, but well, you know,
I see you, and whatever if words were left unspoken,

(56:54):
it doesn't matter, because I there's nothing for me to forgive,
you know, I just accept that you continue to do
the best that you can with what you knew and
the way your relationship with your father impacted your relationship
with me, and similar you and my father never knew
his dad told he immigrated over here at seven, and

(57:16):
then even when he was here, he had a dad,
but not really because he was always working and doing
other things. And again without judgment or shame. But I
do know the mere presence, Like I guess that's the
thing that I want to kind of end with, is
our presence is enough. We may not have the words,
we may not have the vocabulary, we may not know

(57:36):
the history, but if we have the presence enough to
show up and look so on in the eye and
just say I love you, and that's all I want
you to know, because hopefully at some point you will
be able to feel that and express out yourself, then
that's the best that I can do. So what's your
father's name? I know this is for you. So we're

(58:02):
gonna go into the last segment, which is it's called
the sacred five five questions, you answering a word or
a sentence, just practical ways for folks to like take something.
And I feel like, man, I could sit here forever

(58:23):
with you, because I feel like we're about to dive
into the place that is scary, which is the place
we need to get to, which is why, like you know,
we might have talked before this conversation, like Hey, Mike,
I want to focus on the history. Yeah, and like, yeah,
I want to focus on the Fernando history because that's

(58:45):
the thing that's going to connect me even deeper.

Speaker 2 (58:47):
Yeah, you know, I'll add that too. I feel like
before I met Leslie, I was again I had no
problem knocking on somebody's door and telling them, here's why
you need a vote for this candidate, because they're fighting
for this policy and idea and we're going to create
this kind of world together. And you can connect with
people on that level if they see that you're trying
to build a kind of world that they want to build.

(59:11):
But there's another entry point, which is just that personal
story to say I've had these experiences in my lifetime
with my family. My family has had these experiences, and
people are much more able to see themselves in that
they're less programmed to put themselves in a team mindset
of you're on this team, you're on that team. It's

(59:32):
you're a human being who has a certain experience that
I can connect to, that I can relate to, and
that is a very powerful tool it is for building solidarity.

Speaker 1 (59:43):
With other people. I just want you to know I
always always think about my cousins, my primos, that I love,
and specifically on my mom's side, and I'm the only
man on that side of the family that hasn't served
time in a cage or spend the night in jail
or anything. And a lot of my cousins I'm thinking
about have a very similar story to yours and know

(01:00:08):
their dad or their dad for whatever reasons, was doing
harmful activities and they're suffering from not being able to
reconcile that, but not having someone like to just help
contextualize it or share, like you know, your story is
the gateway to the larger thing, because there's a macro right,

(01:00:30):
but I feel the way that we reach mid is
not through the head, it's through the heart, and through
the heart is through us being courageous enough to have
our story or crazy enough to say, you know, I
wish I would have this conversation with my dad, and
I didn't, but I'm having it now and you don't
have to because there's boundaries, there's peace, and we want

(01:00:51):
to protect our peace and boundaries. But we can still
have the conversation with our fathers without them being physically present,
because it's about an energy exchange and ancestrally, you could
be in the other part of the world. But if
I put my intention having a conversation with you, that
energy is going to reach you. You may not know it,
but that's that's how connected we are. But from a

(01:01:12):
science you know, we talked about science. This is it's
not Mike talking. This is scientifically proven.

Speaker 2 (01:01:17):
You know.

Speaker 1 (01:01:18):
We are so deeply connected with multi universes and each
other in such deep, profound ways, you know what I'm saying.

Speaker 2 (01:01:27):
So I could also definitely make a phone call, though
I'll be all right.

Speaker 1 (01:01:32):
So the Sacred Five, name three things that make you
feel safe, connected and whole.

Speaker 2 (01:01:39):
Three things that make me feel safe, connected and whole.
I'd say definitely. I gotta put you know, my son
and my family there. That's one. Just being in relationship
with my family. That's something that makes me feel grounded,
going back for the holidays to go see the people
I love. You know something else, I'd say books. I

(01:02:01):
really I hated reading when I was younger. I didn't
I never passed my AR test, you know where you
got to take those quizzes. But I've learned to love
books and just immerse myself in the knowledge and the
wisdom and the stories that are in there. And music.
So I don't know if I mentioned earlier, but I
played guitar, I played piano. I played a little violin

(01:02:22):
and when I would steal it from my middle school
students and I'd practice on their violins. So music, Yeah,
so music is another one for me.

Speaker 1 (01:02:28):
So sun family, books and music. Right, what song book
or prayer brings you back to yourself?

Speaker 2 (01:02:38):
Songbook or prayer?

Speaker 1 (01:02:40):
You know?

Speaker 2 (01:02:41):
I think a song that I like to play whenever
I'm feeling just kind of lost in the weeds. Angel
by Jimmy Hendrix, the Hotel version where it's just him
on the electric guitar.

Speaker 1 (01:02:53):
Yeah, that's beautiful.

Speaker 2 (01:02:54):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:02:54):
What's one daily ritual or practice that grounds you?

Speaker 2 (01:02:59):
Daily ritual? I feel like some some rituals are not
necessarily consistent, like you knows across all seven days. But
I've gotten into the habit of just getting some exercise
in every morning and moving my body and that it
really helps to keep me rooted. Yeah, And I'd also

(01:03:23):
i'd add to just if I can add to here.
Something I learned from from Leslian andister Jaredo is having
that in your space wherever it is, just to just
to reconnect, right, whatever's happening in the world, come back here.
Remember what's important you Remember that you're valuable, That it
doesn't matter what people are saying over here, you're you're

(01:03:45):
a whole human being beautiful.

Speaker 1 (01:03:48):
What's one small action that listeners can take on their
healing journey.

Speaker 2 (01:03:54):
One small action, I think to kind of tie it
into what we've been talking about here, is tapping into
whatever part of your history that calls to you, whether
that's your family's story, your community story, your cultural story,
our human story, whatever calls to you, whether that's a book,

(01:04:17):
some documentary, a conversation with somebody that you know, tap
into what your story is. I think that's something that
has definitely helped me with my process.

Speaker 1 (01:04:27):
Last one, share a one line blessing or quote that
inspires you.

Speaker 2 (01:04:35):
One line blessing quote. I'm gonna share a poem that
I whenever I'm doing a community event or if I
get invited to speak somewhere, I like to close with
a poem by Asadakor. I'm sure you've heard it, but
for those who have it, it's one. It's a column
response usually, but we'll just do the poem itself. She says,

(01:04:55):
it is our duty to fight for our freedom.

Speaker 1 (01:04:57):
Duty to fight for our freedom.

Speaker 2 (01:04:59):
It is our duty to win.

Speaker 1 (01:05:00):
It's our duty to win.

Speaker 2 (01:05:01):
We must love and support each other.

Speaker 1 (01:05:03):
We must love and support each other.

Speaker 2 (01:05:04):
We have nothing to lose but our chains.

Speaker 1 (01:05:06):
We have nothing to lose by chains.

Speaker 2 (01:05:08):
That's a universal that I think everybody should carry with them.

Speaker 1 (01:05:12):
Beautiful, Well, thank you, Fernando. A should always wrap this
up with like key lessons at least emanated within me. One,
I just want to say thank you for your unending
quest for knowledge. I hope you start to accept the

(01:05:41):
wisdom that you already have in your young thirty three years,
and that no Western school can tell you you are
or not something. So you are a historian, and you
are a sociologist, and you are a community organizing. You're
all these things. So one is thank you for your

(01:06:04):
quest to learn but also to share. The other thing
is just around the women or partners in our lives
that continue to allow to ground us and to make
us feel safe enough to make mistakes. And like you said,
every relationship it's not hunky dory. You know, it has
its ups and downs because that's what life is. But

(01:06:27):
when we commit to those that we love, we can
grow together, and it brings me upmost joy to know
that you and Leslie have found each other and committed
to each other. And I see that play out on
her upcoming buck the LATINX parenting to your stories like

(01:06:48):
I'm able to, and we're able to witness your love
for each other through the work that you're doing, and
so one I want to say that. And then the
last thing is the invitation for myself and for all
of us to continue to know that our personal story
is connected to a larger story, but our entry point
into understanding patterns of history, or understanding that we have

(01:07:10):
been here before and we will survive always starts with
the personal, and always starts with your story, maybe yours,
but it's actually a universal story. And my invitation for
all of us is to have the courage in community
with our partners to start to unpack some of the

(01:07:31):
things that make us who we are, whether it's society
or whether it's familiar or whatever it is. And I
just want to honor you and bless you for carrying
on the lineage you've named. We've name dropped a lot
of people, but the one person that continues to look
at me in the eye in real time at this
moment is my father. And I just want you to

(01:07:53):
know how amazing it is to see a brown man
with a beautiful bear who loves history and wants to
be the best father that he can. Because at the
end of the day, that's our legacy, that you are
my father. So Ishmael Fernando de just thank you for

(01:08:13):
reminding me that we are never gone, that our quest
for love and justice will always be here and it
may take a different form or it may take the
exact same form. And so this was my dad when
he wasn't overweight. This is when he was like you,
and he just is beautiful. That it's just beautiful. So

(01:08:39):
I will end was saying, I thank you, I love you,
and I appreciate all that you you do for so
many of us, So.

Speaker 2 (01:08:45):
That thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:08:52):
Sacred Lessons is a production my Heart's Michael through it
our podcast network, Sacred Lessons Media, and the Prince Group.
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