Sacred Lessons in Nature: Culture, Legacy & Father-Son Love

In this episode of Sacred Lessons, host Mike de la Rocha sits with Selema Masekela for an intimate conversation about culture, nature, and the love between fathers and sons. From surfing, skating, and snowboarding to music and movement as medicine, Selema reflects on how the outdoors became a spiritual home and a pathway to belonging. Together, Mike and Selema explore legacy, grief, and healing, honoring their fathers’ impact while learning how to redefine manhood through tenderness, presence, and love.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
What are the cycles fathers passed down that sons are
left yield? Wouldn't being a man was about holding it
all together.

Speaker 2 (00:09):
I'm and learning how.

Speaker 1 (00:10):
To let go.

Speaker 2 (00:11):
This is a space where to.

Speaker 1 (00:13):
Find the power to heal and transform. I'm Mike Dela Rocha.
Welcome to say your lessons. Some relationships feel like mirrors,
divine timing connections weave together and some other dimension for
a purpose unknown yet known. Welcome to Sacred Lessons. I'm

(00:35):
Mike Dela Rocha, and I'm honored to sit with my
brother Selema Masekela, a voice you know from the X Games,
a snowboarder, skater and a surfer who's opening doors for
people of color and action sports, and a storyteller who
honors his African roots and everything that he does. I

(00:56):
was extremely privileged to share the stage with Selemma at
the outside on a panel discussing masculinity. It was one
of the highlights of my Sacred Lessons book tour last year,
A rare moment of two men sharing genuine tenderness, vulnerability
and truth. My brother, thank you. We share This is

(01:18):
like a newer relationship, but I felt like a kindred
spirit from day one.

Speaker 2 (01:24):
Yes, it's new old, it's new.

Speaker 1 (01:26):
Yeah, it's like ancient.

Speaker 2 (01:28):
Yeah, it's new old.

Speaker 1 (01:29):
And our time at the Outside Festival was the beginning
of a new life for me and a new career
because my book hadn't come out, and I was trying
to figure out, like where's my space. And when we
were on that panel, in that moment talking about our
fathers and sons, that's where I was like, Oh, that's
kind of what I want to do. That's the next

(01:50):
chapter of my life. But the thing before we jump
into it, what I really want to honor was a
few weeks ago, I was with my mentor, my second father,
Tim Newbany, black South African man, who like your father,
played a big role in the anti part time movement,

(02:10):
and we called you yeah, And when you spoke Zulu
to him.

Speaker 2 (02:16):
I just kicked a couple of words.

Speaker 1 (02:18):
It didn't matter because he smiled so big. And I
had called you after I had tooken them to buy
the book for him. And when you see your father
start to their body starts to decay and break down.

(02:40):
When I went to pick him up, he came out
in a shopping cart because he had a second stroke
on the way here and I was holding him like walking.
It was such a tender moment when it was like
he did that physically and like spiritually for me when
I first met him at seventeen, and then when he

(03:01):
talked to you, it was like full circle. The elder
becomes the child and becomes the baby. But he was
pure love.

Speaker 2 (03:09):
And he was like, I want to meet him.

Speaker 1 (03:12):
You know, there's thing South African voice. So I just
want to say thank you for giving me that moment
with him. Thank you for being the person that you are.
I've known you before, I've known you, and I've always
just been so like, man, there's someone that I could
be in the action sports world. Like it doesn't have

(03:33):
to be all white, it can be all shades and
everything else. So thank you for even deciding to come on.
Thank you for your life and everything, and so I
just I'm super excited for this company.

Speaker 2 (03:42):
Oh man, that means a lot, Man, it really does. Mike.

Speaker 3 (03:45):
I remember when when they asked me to do the panel,
it outside and they told me it was going to
be with you. They started telling me your story and
obviously I heard and I was like, huh, I wonder
if he's related to Zach at all, because I know
Zach from surfing, went to Fiji together years ago. But

(04:09):
as they were telling me your story, I was just like, oh, well,
Mike's just Mike's on his own, Like, yes, that's his cousin,
but Mike's on his own. And yeah, when we first met,
when we first started talked, I was just like, Oh,
this is just felt like somebody that I've known for
a long time. Like the frequency, you know what I mean,
Like the energetic frequency where you don't have to you

(04:34):
don't have to explain that you're different. You know, like
your difference is common and it's hard, I think sometimes
to feel to feel a commonality in choosing to be
your entire self and knowing that your entire self also
renders you on paper as different. So getting to know you,

(04:58):
learning your story and obviously being able to sit on
that panel, it's just really powerful. So of course when
you when you say come through, let's sit and chop
it up, it's easy for me. It's easy for me
to drive to the to the valley for the people
I like, only for people.

Speaker 1 (05:18):
Only, and I received that fully. Well, let me just
before we jump in. There's so much I want to
talk about. But for those that don't know your story,
what's the condensed version?

Speaker 2 (05:31):
O man?

Speaker 3 (05:32):
I mean there's so many, there's angles to it. I mean,
I think what people obviously know me for the most
is my voice within the action sports community. And I've
been a commentator of surfing, snowboarding, skateboarding, free ride, mountain biking,
freestyle motocross for twenty five years.

Speaker 2 (05:54):
You notice.

Speaker 3 (05:57):
When you get up to the fifth floor and you
start being let's say things in decades, because I remember
when I was young and you hear people be like, yeah,
we've been friends for twenty years. You're like, God, you
guys are older than dirt, and now you're that dirt.
But yeah, twenty five years and action sports has played
a really massive role in my professional life but also personally.

Speaker 2 (06:21):
I grew up in New York.

Speaker 3 (06:22):
City, the son of a jazz musician and my mother
was a holistic health practitioner way before it was cool
and before it was on TikTok, and I grew up
in and around.

Speaker 2 (06:37):
The arts in New York. So I knew.

Speaker 3 (06:40):
Nothing about the action sports world other than like building
jumps behind my buildings with like, you know, old pieces
of wood and ce men from construction sites and being
like all right, like let's jump a bike. But it
wasn't until until my mother and stepfather moved to southern
California to else Bad when I was sixteen that I

(07:02):
discovered this world that I had to like figure out
by default. I had no desire to be in California
where these kids were ninety nine point nine percent white
and then Mexican kids and there were like two other
black kids in my whole school, and the school was
literally based around like you were cooler if you skated

(07:24):
and if you surfed, then if you were the quarterback
on the football team, Like the best surfer in school
was the most probably was that was the rizzler, That
was the dude who was who had the girls, et cetera.

Speaker 2 (07:34):
Was the best surfer in school, not the quarterback.

Speaker 3 (07:36):
And surfing to me, when I saw it, it looked
like like break dancing on water. There was like a
rhythmic sort of bee boy dance element, and I was
watching dudes on waves and it looked like they're one
upping each other in the same way you would in
a battle. And I was like I could get down

(07:59):
with that. Like I saw from a rhythmic place first,
and I told one of the kids, like, yo, I
want to learn how to surf. He was like, but bro,
you guys don't even swim. Bro, what do you mean
you're gonna like like he was giving me like a
public service announcement, like excuse me, yeah, did you not
know about you in the water? Which lit a real

(08:22):
fire underneath me. And I was the last one to
the party, but it just like locked me in and
I fell in love with it. The first time that
I stood up on a wave, you know, for like
two or three seconds, it was my It was my
first spiritual exchange. Like it was the first time I
felt a connection to God, Goddess, the universe. And I

(08:45):
remember coming up out of the water screaming at the
top of my lungs at sixteen, like viscerally be like ah.
And that was it. My whole life went in that direction.
And that happened to have moved to a town which
was the epicenter of the culture, the industry, brands, magazines,

(09:11):
and you know, any desires or that I had to
like try to please my parents from like as far
as like going to school, et cetera.

Speaker 2 (09:20):
That all went out the condo.

Speaker 3 (09:21):
I'm just I'm chasing the thing, and long story, should
I end up getting a job and Transports Snowboarding and
Skateboarding magazine as an intern, I found people with who
were artists and writers and graphic artists and had all
the photographers and credible skill sets who also were not
good enough to be pro but wanted to be a

(09:42):
part of this thing. And we're shaping and communicating this
this culture that was under construction to the world pre Internet, right,
so magazines were valuable and the only people who.

Speaker 2 (09:55):
Cared about the sports were the people who were doing
them were doing it.

Speaker 3 (10:00):
So I entered in at this golden time and I
found like my I found like a parachute, like a
tent under which like I didn't have to feel like
a weirdo, that I didn't want to become a square
and get a job and get a just be safe,
Like I wanted to keep pursuing how this made me feel,
but also figure out how to live. And that kind

(10:20):
of began my journey. And it was within that space
of answering phones and then doing sales at brands and
then getting into like marketing and team stuff with athletes
that I found my voice, you know, I was able
to sort of find this. I had this ability to
communicate what was happening, not just in like the bro language,

(10:43):
but I could I could really explain it to people
who didn't know anything about it.

Speaker 2 (10:47):
And I think it was.

Speaker 3 (10:47):
Because I had come from another world and it wasn't
generational for me.

Speaker 2 (10:52):
So yeah, it was like I found.

Speaker 3 (10:56):
I found this tent where I didn't have to feel
strange for pursuing what I think a lot of people
around me felt were like would immature, juvenile, you know,
pursuits like the I knew that it was a lifestyle

(11:19):
as soon as I started surfing, and then skating and
skating and then I started snowboarding six months later. I
knew that, like, this is how I wanted to live.
And there was no there was no idea of this
like being a season in my life. It was, yeah,
this is how I want to live. And so finding

(11:39):
the magazine and finding people who had built professions and
also like we're interweaving the arts into it, which was
was so dope. It was like, Okay, I've found my people.
But then I had to find what my my role
in the band was.

Speaker 1 (12:00):
It's so funny because so many of us have had
that spiritual awakening when we're in the water, realizing that
we're a part of something bigger. The vastness of it,
the connection to it.

Speaker 2 (12:16):
It was super. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (12:18):
What I especially as a as a teenager, who you
who's going?

Speaker 2 (12:22):
You're going through all the things right.

Speaker 3 (12:24):
I had an artist's father who also was an addict,
who was brilliant but had his issues. I had a
stepfather who I was constantly in a war with, and
these two sort of competing for who I was going
to who they were competing as to as to who

(12:45):
could say that I was, you know, in their image.
And I'm trying to forge and find my identity in
my image. And the ocean was the only place that
I could go that when I.

Speaker 2 (13:00):
As soon as I would duck to have the first wave.

Speaker 3 (13:05):
Silence, everything that's happening on the earth was gone and
now you're just sitting and floating in this depth of connection.
I always tell people like riding waves and surfing, is
it's this much of it right for me? I think

(13:27):
sometimes which I don't. I love the freedom of harnessing
the energy and and you know, pushing the envelope and
being on this fine line between ultimate joy and the
ocean trying to kill you. But it's that it's when
you paddle out and you're sitting in the water in
between sets, observing, whether it be the sky, the horizon,

(13:50):
dolphins who might pop up next to you, just zoning
out and getting in tune with all that water within
your body, connecting like you know, with with and you're
you're sitting in the in the main element that makes
you up something mis taken, something, because it just and

(14:12):
I think that's the thing that and it's just it's
a similar type feeling when I'm in the mountains.

Speaker 2 (14:20):
But yeah, the water is really that strongest place for.

Speaker 1 (14:23):
The strongest and the purpose of water is not only
to keep us live, but it's part of the healing.
And I was thinking about it right now when you
were talking. Something that just popped up was that you know,
this conversation about masculine manhood one of the few, if
only spaces that men could cry, or in the shower

(14:45):
or in the water, because no one.

Speaker 2 (14:48):
Knows you're crying, or on planes or on planes.

Speaker 3 (14:54):
I think it's for some reason when I watch movies
on planes, bro, I'm and I think it's because you're
in a space that you're not in control of. You're
thirty five thousand feet in a tin can with engines

(15:14):
that at any point, like the shit can be gone
and it's confined.

Speaker 1 (15:18):
So it's acceptable for it's almost suspending reality.

Speaker 3 (15:21):
It's suspended reality, and you you have no choice but
to relinquish all control.

Speaker 2 (15:27):
You're not driving. That true.

Speaker 3 (15:29):
I was watching I decided to watch the Mister Rogers
Tom Hanks movie, which I never I got never.

Speaker 2 (15:37):
Got around to watching. Bro I was on that plane
on Soliday. I was wrecked.

Speaker 3 (15:45):
I cried most of the movie, huh a because I
didn't know the storyline, which was so there was the
woman I forget the name of the woman who directed it,
but it was so brilliantly about relationship with father, and
you don't see that coming. You just think like, oh cool,
there's going to be like as I'm going to get
the the arc of mister Roger's life, like I gotten

(16:06):
the documentary and they're like, nah, you ready, we did
that in the documentary. Let me show you who he
is by the power of what this man was able
to do. Oh, I wept, I wept, But anyway, yeah,
water shower.

Speaker 2 (16:27):
Blame.

Speaker 1 (16:27):
Let me ask you then this question of weeping or
emotional expression probably better return. But we're both blessed that
we have these fathers that are kind of they're giants.
My father was very instrumental in Chicano movement, back to thousands,
tens of thousands of people. Your father's iconic South African

(16:49):
jazz musician played a huge role in the end of
aparths height. You know, they talked the world how to organize,
maybe how to express themselves through their work. But at
least for me, he didn't teach me how to be vulnerable.
He didn't teach me how to cry in a Mister

(17:10):
Rogers movie. Yeah, was that your experience or who taught
you how to be a man? The man that you
are now?

Speaker 3 (17:19):
It's so interesting that you say that, because my father
was dynamic and beloved and had this ability to connect
with any and everyone. I used to tell you that
this man would literally go on stage and steal people's souls.
That was his superpower. Just snatch your shit, take it

(17:40):
and then bait it in all the ancestral sauce, and
then give it back to you. And you left far
more curious about life. The world and other people than before.
It was masterful, But his ability to show vulnerable emotion, No,

(18:05):
I never saw my father cry. I didn't learn that
from him. I think my father cried inside. You know,
he had to flee his country when he was nineteen,
didn't see his father for thirty years during a part time,
not to mention all the other shit that he went
through while experiencing the trauma of watching this insidious legalized

(18:36):
racism slowly come into play, and then one day they
flipped the switch and they come and they pull up
with the truck and they make your parents take everything
out of their house and move them to another place
where the blacks are going to live so that white
people can take your house. These are all things that
my father witnessed slowly as apartheid was coming online. So

(19:01):
I think he had to learn and I wonder your
father probably was similar. Had to learn how to like
shut down the surface sentiment.

Speaker 2 (19:14):
To survive.

Speaker 3 (19:17):
And internalize in ways that wasn't healthy, which I think
is clearly why my father chose to self medicate with
substance and drugs in the manner that he did. I
think it was a need, like it was a medicinal
need for him at certain points, not justifying it, but
I understand it. I think for me, nobody taught me

(19:44):
that my stepfather was a rigid Porto roc Puerto Rican
dude who ruled our household very much with an iron
fist that was rooted in the idea of an organized
religion spirituality. But we had to follow the rules.

Speaker 2 (20:10):
You know.

Speaker 3 (20:11):
I was raised Joe's witness, like out knocking on doors
on Saturdays, no birthdays, all the things. And your conscience
is also very much hijacked from you as far as
you getting to your free will is dictated by a
fear of God. So I was in this like very

(20:32):
interesting boat growing up where my father was worldly and
doing all the things, and when I was with him,
he was like, leave that shit at home, and.

Speaker 2 (20:43):
So I got to experience more.

Speaker 3 (20:45):
But you're also like and then I would come back
home and feel guilty, and my mother and stepfather would
work very much as sort of like almost sort of
deprogram whatever I experience with my So I was constantly
in this pendulum and also learned how to be very

(21:06):
adept at pleasing everybody else. For some reason, I just
was always a sensitive kid and I felt very comfortable
in my emotions. My stepfather would chastise me for them,
and then at times my father would, but I never
I didn't know how to not cry. When my mother

(21:28):
tells a story about like I was like four or
five years old and we're going someplace. I actually remember it.
I see I'm in the car with my family, with
my grandmother and my mother and stepfather, and we're at
a red light, and I'm looking at this homeless woman
who's clearly destitute. And I asked my mother, why if

(21:51):
that person has a home, and my mother says that
she doesn't have a home, and.

Speaker 2 (21:56):
I lose it. I just stuck crying.

Speaker 3 (22:00):
And my mother explains how inconsolable I was, and how
they would always have to make sure to like shield
me from seeing people who are homeless, who are in pain.
I've just I've always I've been I've always been sensitive,
and I've never felt weird about it. Like I don't,

(22:20):
I don't, I don't, I don't know, like I to
this day, Like you know, you would think as you
get older, maybe you're going to get harder.

Speaker 2 (22:27):
Now get.

Speaker 3 (22:31):
I'm getting charming, softer, And I think it's also too
like you go through a lot of shit in life,
and you just you realize how how much of a
fallacy this idea is that you can possibly exist and
grow whilst internalizing and holding in feeling.

Speaker 2 (22:56):
I don't know.

Speaker 3 (22:57):
I think feeling is just and it has always been
like an innate part of me, and I've I've always
just felt comfortable that if I need to cry, like
I'm gonna.

Speaker 2 (23:10):
Get it out.

Speaker 3 (23:11):
Also, don't disrespect me, and especially don't disrespect those close
to me. Like if you disrespect those close to me,
especially when I was younger, those tears would turn into
something else. And I've really had to learn I had.
I had so much angst that I was battling with
because of like not knowing how to who. I was

(23:35):
constantly trying to please everybody else that if I got
pushed the wrong way, I would just.

Speaker 2 (23:42):
I would flash on people.

Speaker 3 (23:44):
But then after I flashed on people, I would go
and cry. If I lost my temper, if I got
in a fight or whatever, like I would usually cry afterwards.

Speaker 1 (23:55):
It's interesting when you were talking. The whole time I was,
I kept looking at this Octavia Butler parable of the
Sower Book, and the main character is a young black
woman who superpowers, that she's so emotionally connected that she
feels other people's pain.

Speaker 2 (24:13):
To the point where it might kill her.

Speaker 1 (24:14):
Correct where when you were talking about that story when
your mom, that's literally what I was thinking about, and
that her parents at the time had to protect her
the same way your mom did.

Speaker 3 (24:26):
And imagine what it was like for me when I
read that book. I was like, I gave me chills
when I saw yourself.

Speaker 2 (24:35):
I saw myself and her.

Speaker 1 (24:37):
Yeah, And ironically, I would probably argue, like all of
us are her. We've just been deprogrammed, desensitized by the
structure and the system to run away from that which
is who we are. And it's just profound because this
issue when having conversations with men, this issue about oh

(24:59):
I feelmftable crying, but don't get a twist. I'll still
roll up. And it's almost like we have to say
that because if we're not, then it's like we're not
mad enough, you know, and.

Speaker 2 (25:11):
Don't let this fool you, right, Like what is that?

Speaker 1 (25:15):
But then at the same time, you know, the science
shows that those people I'm not even putting gender on it,
but those people that are able to cry they're neurons,
and their ability to think rationally, expansively, imaginatively is way
more than those that keep it in. Yeah, because you're
connected to source, you're connected to self in a very

(25:37):
profound way that allows you to be more communicative and expansive. So,
you know, for me, back to the water, back to
the mountains, back to that. Do you think that was
part of because we're so connected to the land, we
are land based people. But do you think that was
part of you just being or like that that person

(25:58):
that was comfortable and being that expressive with their emotions.

Speaker 3 (26:04):
I think I think it was about having a having
a space, getting to play in these spaces and be
your entire self.

Speaker 2 (26:19):
But there's no.

Speaker 3 (26:20):
Rules, right, Like, whatever style you have as a skater,
that's it. You can invent your own tricks, that's it.
You want to go out and take a slam, you
can do so with neepads, with helmet or not.

Speaker 2 (26:41):
You're going to get respect either way.

Speaker 3 (26:43):
But are you pursuing this sort of open source, creative
space as we reinterpret what a pool is or a
staircase or a ledge or a picnic table. I was
fascinated by that and this freedom to express in these
spaces that they're not designed for same thing in the

(27:08):
in the mountains, right, you're there at the top of
this mountain, and how you choose to get down. You
have the same endpoint as everyone else, but how you
do it is going to be completely different, and no
one's going to be like.

Speaker 2 (27:19):
Hey, you were supposed to make this turn.

Speaker 3 (27:22):
And within the ocean it was like this this very,
very sort of fluid version of what that is. But again,
it is open sourced freedom, and within these spaces of play, it's.

Speaker 2 (27:37):
Also self expression.

Speaker 3 (27:39):
It's art, it's style, it's flair, it's rhythm, and they
were all places of necessary outlets for me to find
self discovery and to build identity in which no one's
telling me how, who and how I'm supposed to be.
I didn't have to worry about pleasing anybody, right, any

(28:01):
of them.

Speaker 1 (28:01):
As I'm getting older, hearing you speak, it's as if
I'm speaking because I had that same experience in those
subcultures that allowed me to be free and allowed me
to be the only time I did feel free was
when I was there, whether it was with you know,

(28:22):
the punk rock scene or the surf scene or the
skate scene because of what you're expressing, like, we were
all misfits and we were normalizing being different because we
were the same. Because we're different. It's about theists to
say we're all the same because we were different. We
can create a world where many worlds exist. And in
the dominant society, that wasn't it. You had to be

(28:43):
this cookie cutter version of what a young man was
supposed to be or whatever it was. But in these
other spaces you were able to be fully expressive and
however that looked, Yeah, pin care if you wanted nose ring,
whatever whatever it was. And I've always gravitated towards that
form of just freedom. And then it makes sense because

(29:06):
then the mountains, the wind, the water. I mean, that's
a curious expression of freedom. You know. They say, like
the trees don't know. The trees just give oxygen. That's
their role. They don't say, oh maybe today, I'm gonna
make sure always tell me.

Speaker 3 (29:27):
No.

Speaker 1 (29:28):
They just that's what their role is. And but there
there's a freedom in that. So yeah, when we're talking
about this issue of the subcultures, that really I feel
like my life's purpose is trying to make the subcultures
the normal, right, because I want folks to have that
same feeling that I do, or that we have continue

(29:51):
to have. I guess my question is two. Part one
is what are the greatest lessons you learned from nature?
And then I'll go into the second one, but lost
sit on that one for a moment.

Speaker 3 (30:06):
I think my favorite lessons that I learned from nature
is Nature could give a fuck about where you came
from or how you got there. Nature is only concerned
by the manner in which you show up. Is like

(30:29):
the most indiscriminate landscape to play in, and you have
to respect it, Like nature will really like kick.

Speaker 2 (30:46):
Your ass if you're disrespectful, kill you.

Speaker 3 (30:51):
But also within those spaces like you can experience such
radical joy. You get to learn how to sit in
like required presence, like depth of presence that will keep
you alive. But then then in turn like puts you
in this space where you get to experience levels of

(31:11):
joy that you didn't even know were possible, and they
might even be They might be in like a three
to five second window. But as you go on for
the rest of your life and reflect on what happened
in that space, it feels like it was forever there
it was, Yeah, because the construct of time is just dissolved,
and you just you find out in that.

Speaker 2 (31:32):
Moment like, oh, you know, when.

Speaker 3 (31:35):
You close your eyes and you think about like the
best barrels you've gotten being inside the tuber of a
wave like that two three four seconds, it feels like
and then this happened, and then this happened, and this happened,
and this happened, And if someone was to watch it,
they'd be like, now, all that didn't happen.

Speaker 2 (31:50):
You're like, yes, it did.

Speaker 3 (31:54):
And there's something so freeing, And I think humbling about that.
And I think also, like, as black and brown men
in this conversation, and just marginalized people in general, the absurdity,
especially in this country.

Speaker 2 (32:17):
That.

Speaker 3 (32:19):
They thought they'd be able to gate keep that shit
from us.

Speaker 1 (32:24):
When we're the actual original inventors.

Speaker 3 (32:26):
Of all all black people and African people's and brown
people's like, have been frolicking joyfully and in nature. Check
check the tape, check the receipts of all of our ancestors,
frolicking with wisdom, and the idea that that would be

(32:52):
stripped of us, beaten out of us, that our bodies
would be conscripted solely for the purpose of work in
confined spaces or in limited spaces in nature, and that
the idea of like recreation and joy and just being

(33:15):
would be reserved for the few, like the idea of
just having access to lots of space, that that being
like a default white idea and convincing people of that. Yeah,
like most people like are very unaware that on the
back end, you know, of segregation.

Speaker 2 (33:37):
Like that was one of the.

Speaker 3 (33:37):
Last the last balls they put up was like all right,
the parks, the national parks, the swimming pool the swimming pools,
the beaches, like the manners in which those tried to
be carved out as like no, these are for us,
and then we being taught it and having it beaten

(33:59):
to us, not that we believe it. So that like
you know, I'm sure you had the same experience, but
I don't know about you.

Speaker 2 (34:05):
Like the.

Speaker 3 (34:07):
When my parents moved to Carlsbad, very white, a little
bit Mexican ocean side was adjacent to Camp Pelton, to
the to the marine base, and so you actually had
more black people there that were in the Marines. Remember
the first time I was walking, like to go paddle
out and serve at ocean side pier and like there

(34:29):
was a bunch of like handful of young black men
that looked like me, and they looked at me like
I come from a spaceship.

Speaker 2 (34:37):
There was silence for a.

Speaker 3 (34:38):
Moment, and then they had a choice, and they went
to the of course natural default, like yo, what why
are you doing that? White shift for like and then
proceed the laughter jokes, et cetera. And you'd do like,
but just go and surf and getting that So now
you're getting it from like both ends. But coming back

(35:03):
to your question, like, once you play in those spaces,
it's like joy and and anger at like how how
fucking dare you? How dare they the audacity to get
us to think that this is not for us?

Speaker 1 (35:25):
I mean, I was thinking of two things. One one
of my favorite writers thought leaders, is Adrian Marie Brown,
and she always says, we're living in someone else's imagination.
Someone said that it was okay for this to be
reserved for the few like you framed it and told
that life so much that we actually started to believe it.

(35:47):
We gave up our power to do that and everything.
I was thinking about your story about seeing the black
military man growing up in Ventura. It was a predominantly
white environment for me, and I've always been seen as
Mexican and something else, so I have lightskin privileged. I'm

(36:10):
not as dark as my cousins.

Speaker 3 (36:12):
Also, you're not doing what everyone else does, so we
have to make you something else to explain it.

Speaker 1 (36:17):
We have to explain it. And interesting enough in hearing
hearing you being born in Oxnarn the surfers and Oxnar.
If you weren't from Oxnard, they wouldn't let you on
the beach. It was just period, like I always junk
around where you live, like the digital nomads come around
and it's for everyone. So I'm not judging, but I'm

(36:38):
just saying back then, you'd be fighting like this was
their territory, this was their waves, That was it. Van
Terra wasn't as hard, but it was almost like I
was running towards whiteness because it was a white sport,
because you know, everything around me was saying, hey, dark
is dangerous, brown is ugly, So guess what might go

(37:02):
dye your hair blonde? Guess what my ghost surf be
the only person of color in the waves.

Speaker 3 (37:07):
You think I didn't paroxide my ship thinking that those
kids were going to accept.

Speaker 1 (37:11):
When they were never going to.

Speaker 3 (37:13):
They used to introduce me at parties or whatever, like, oh,
this is our friend.

Speaker 2 (37:18):
First of all.

Speaker 3 (37:19):
Like I only got the nickname Sal because when I
got to California, Selemma was so confusing to people. To them,
they're like, we got to do something about this. And
one day a kid walked up to me and he
was like, yeah.

Speaker 2 (37:30):
Sal, bro, we thought about it. You're Sal dude. Yeah.
And then you're walking down the halloway and what's up Sal? Yeah?
So what's up selling? You're like what and.

Speaker 3 (37:41):
Okay, okay, And then I remember the first time that
a kid introduced me and said this is Sal.

Speaker 2 (37:52):
He's cool.

Speaker 3 (37:54):
He's more like us. He's not a regular black, he's
more like us. By patting me on the back and
everyone being like, yeah, oh.

Speaker 2 (38:09):
That's cool, you surf, you do our shit. Oh that's cool.

Speaker 3 (38:16):
And very much making me feel like I should be
feel lucky and grateful that they gave me permission. And
I don't want to go too far off, but like,
let me tie this tie this full circle just to
sort of like explain how that sticks with you for
your whole life. During twenty twenty when we briefly, briefly

(38:40):
looked like we're going to be allowed to have conversations
in and around race in America, and everyone was getting
checked if they if white people for the first time,
if you were gatekeeping your place. There was a reckoning
taking place, and we were having a larger conversation about
race and surfing interactions, and it seemed there was some

(39:02):
productive work that was being done. But I started to
get the dms from the people who were salty, who
are you know now I guess would be maga, and
people just being like, how dare you? I can't believe
that this is who you're choosing to be, Like we
let you in and this is how you repay us.

(39:23):
People who I knew, I just don't understand why you
got to say all this because I've known you this
whole time. I never saw anything happen to you, so
it didn't happen. You're making this up to capitalize on
what's going on. But come on, bro, you're you're ours.

(39:44):
How dare you choose to show up in the entirety
of your blackness?

Speaker 2 (39:48):
That makes me.

Speaker 3 (39:51):
After what we've done for you, you wouldn't.

Speaker 2 (39:55):
Have this career if it wasn't for us, this is.

Speaker 3 (39:59):
What people And it's like, wait, I've been working my
ass off. I never had an opportunity to be mediocre
at any of this. I had to come in with
and give people no excuse. Yeah, it's just, uh, it's

(40:19):
a trip. How you how you find yourself in these
spaces that like are giving you ultimate freedom. Like I said,
like you know, the the that you get to be
the entirety of yourself in nature, that this these little
gates that they that they put up create this whole

(40:41):
whole other thing where you find yourself still fighting for
identity and existence when all you're really asking for is
to just be. And I'm sorry that you know, my
version of of what brownness is explodes your brain because
you were trip from being able to attach any type

(41:02):
any any type of you know, imagination or creativity to
like what I could be endlessly while you're allowed to
be whatever. And I think that was Yeah.

Speaker 2 (41:15):
It's it's a it's a trip.

Speaker 3 (41:17):
It's a trip to still find myself reckoning with it
all these years later, but at the same time being
encouraged because there's a whole nother generation now of you know,
of of of kids who are they can't be bothered
with any of it, and they're starting to show up
in droves.

Speaker 1 (41:35):
I don't want to I don't want to go away
until I just honor and release the pain of friends
of ours that would come up with that when they're
able to show who they really are.

Speaker 2 (41:58):
It's painful. It's when you have to let them go.

Speaker 1 (42:01):
It's painful. And uh because these are you know, childhood
friends and sometimes business partners and and you know, people
see the outside world like with you, like, oh my god,
you're the voice for twenty five years and you're in
Australian all this and they don't see like all the

(42:23):
micro that aren't ever micro. I hate the one that
people say micro aggression. Bro, aggression is an aggression.

Speaker 2 (42:29):
I didn't stab you. I just cut you with this blade.

Speaker 1 (42:31):
Well I'm still bleeding.

Speaker 3 (42:32):
I'm still bleeding, you know, like people think you need
to get like you need to get the knife.

Speaker 2 (42:37):
Has to go in and get twisted.

Speaker 3 (42:39):
Oh, it's like there's a reason why box cutters carried
from back here. You didn't even feel you didn't even
know someone cuts you. You want to talk about micro
like they're gone walking in the other direction and you're like,
I'm I'm still bleeding, right. Those are the hardest ones

(42:59):
sometimes to heal.

Speaker 1 (43:01):
Yeah, that's why I said, the wound healed, but the
scar is there.

Speaker 2 (43:06):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (43:06):
And in my kind of organized background, I gotta remind myself, Hey,
that's a system that's pain talking, but it's still a
real emotion. And then when you're talking about the vestiges
of racism and domination and control. I mean I still
go around saying, hey, I'm Mike because when they were

(43:28):
calling you sell, my name is Michael, you know what
I mean.

Speaker 2 (43:32):
Yeah, but Mike is.

Speaker 1 (43:33):
The cooler, wider thing to be. Hey, you're just like
my cousin, Mike cool. And it's this straddling of worlds
that we didn't invent. And when we're young, we're like, oh,
I guess I have to play that part.

Speaker 3 (43:49):
I just want acceptance. You're not even thinking about all that.
So when you're when you're a kid, when you're a teenager,
you just you want acceptance and you don't what I learned,
And it sounds like you learned as well.

Speaker 2 (44:03):
You didn't.

Speaker 3 (44:04):
I didn't realize how much of myself I was giving up. Yeah,
And when I finally recognized how much I had changed
and how much I had allowed these people to shape
the parameters of how I got to exist in this
thing that was mine. It was really embarrassing and I

(44:28):
had to make some big changes because I had allowed,
I had allowed behaviors and things to get said around me.

Speaker 2 (44:37):
That were When I think.

Speaker 3 (44:39):
About it now, I don't even I don't even know
what sort of override button was allowing it to just
to exist. Because you're trying to stay safe, you think
you're you're creating safety for yourself, but yeah, it was.
It took me, like in my early twenties to sort
of like, wait, no, I'm gonna be You're going to

(45:01):
see me.

Speaker 2 (45:01):
But you're going to see the entire of me. Entirety
of me.

Speaker 1 (45:05):
Do you think this is? I'm thinking I'm asking you
and asking me at the same time. But obviously, as
an adolescence, you're in just in life, we all want
to be, we all want to belong. Obviously it's hypers
It's like more as an adolescence, you know you want
to fit in. But I'm just thinking about our fathers again.

(45:27):
Because my father was unapologetically Mexican. He was like proud
to be Chicano. He was, he was teaching Chicano studies
for forty years, like he was all about it. So
in my mind, I guess the question to you and
to myself is like, do you think we were were
we rebelling with our fathers by saying, Hey, I'm actually

(45:49):
going to run away from something. I can't run away.
That's the lie. I can't run away from who I am.
But do you think some of that was playing into it? Is?

Speaker 3 (45:56):
Absolutely I was sprinting from and everything my father was
because it didn't seem attainable for me.

Speaker 2 (46:05):
It seemed like a lot of work and trouble.

Speaker 3 (46:08):
And I was also being raised in this thing that
was telling me that even though I loved my father
and I marveled at him, that I couldn't possibly want
to emulate him like and so it was this duality like, Oh,
he's amazing, but he's also bad. And so I was

(46:28):
sprinting for what away from from.

Speaker 2 (46:32):
All of that?

Speaker 3 (46:34):
The irony in all that would be that like this
thing that I found myself in, I would end up
requiring me to step into and embody all the traits
that he'd given to me. Because I didn't know that
I was going to end up doing similar work or
a different work at the same frequency in a different,

(46:57):
different space.

Speaker 2 (46:59):
But that's what happened.

Speaker 3 (47:00):
I was just pursuing the joy of the thing, and
then next thing, you know, you find yourself being somewhat
of a representative for a larger conversation, and then finding
yourself up against that friction, and then learning that the
friction is actually good, a sign that you're doing things right.

Speaker 1 (47:20):
Right. Let me ask you, because we're both musicians and artists,
I'm able to talk to my dad or I'm asking
my dad and telling my dad things I never said
when he was physically live. Through my book, do you

(47:41):
find your art and music in particular, is your way
of communicating with your dad things that were never said
when he was here.

Speaker 2 (47:50):
Yeah, in many ways.

Speaker 3 (47:51):
I think when I started to make my records, and
I didn't start making my records until I was forty,
I grew up playing music. And then when I moved
to Cali, like I stopped playing sacks, I stopped singing,
And I always say, like the surfboard, like that became
my music, the mountains became my music. But it was

(48:13):
always this like gnawing thing within me, and I didn't
tell my father I was making.

Speaker 2 (48:21):
My first album.

Speaker 3 (48:23):
I was terrified that he would find out, but I
also like had to do it. And my cousin Sonny,
he and I started working on this record together, and
then my uncle came over and started checking out what
we were doing, and he was like, all right, this
is actually legit. So he would come and play sacks

(48:45):
on some things and help us with arrangements, and he
really became a great sounding board and perspective set on
this record. Little did I know that he was backdooring
information my dad, who was in South Africa. So one
day my dad calls me U and this is my

(49:05):
dad's sober at this point, and we've really started to
foster something beautiful, like a father son relationship that is
rooted in friendship, like my best friend. And he says,
I'm coming to the States. He says, yeah, man, I'm
excited to see you. I'm excited to come and hang
with you. But you know, I hear you've been working

(49:27):
on a thing and what's going on.

Speaker 2 (49:31):
I was like, remember, like.

Speaker 3 (49:32):
Just it cold in my body and I was like, yeah,
you know, yeah, I'm making a reck And he said, okay, yeah,
and I remember you used to play, you know, and
you were good, but I didn't know that you wanted
it and I was. And this is I think, when

(49:55):
I look back on this conversation, we're saying so much
without saying everything, and I kind of bypassed like saying more.
And I was like, yeah, you know, it's just you know,
it just felt like the right time and I had
some time. He said, so, okay, So so when I
come over, I'm gonna hear it, right, I said, okay, yeah,

(50:18):
I'll get you. You know, we were just finishing up
the album, so he comes. My dad loved to eat
like that was his He looked at food like he
did music, like he could hear the seasoning and the
good and like flavor the way he he heard music

(50:38):
like that. They were a similar feeling for him. So
it was always my responsibility to like try and blow
his mind. We never ate average if that meant like
going to like, you know, little Ethiopia and finding like
the dope spot, like he wanted to be at eye
level with the people, any good food or just like
blow his mind. So this is like, this is like

(51:00):
the beginnings of Jelina in Venice and I knew Travis.
He's from Venice, living around the corner. I'm gonna take
you for some food. So anyway we go and we
have this meal.

Speaker 2 (51:09):
And he's happy as can be.

Speaker 3 (51:11):
We're out on the street. Ah, that was the meanest man.
Thank you.

Speaker 2 (51:16):
Wow.

Speaker 3 (51:17):
I can't wait till we come back and eat this again.
That guy, tell your friend Travis, he should be arrested.
That was always compliment for the chef. You should go
to jail for cooking like this. But we're standing on
the street corner happy, and then it gets real quiet and.

Speaker 2 (51:32):
He says, so, man, do you have it? Do you
have the thing?

Speaker 3 (51:39):
And so now we're like we're doing a drug deal
on the corner and I reach into my jacket I
burnt a CD for him. I hand it to him
like I'm shaking, and he looks at it and he says, okay,
I'm be in touch and then just turns around. I
watched him walk away to is, ran a car and

(52:01):
drive off, and I didn't hear from him.

Speaker 2 (52:04):
I didn't hear from him the next day, king killing me.

Speaker 3 (52:10):
And then day and a half later I had missed
a call from him. This is back when you used
to check your voicemail, and I get the most incredible
voicemail from my dad, he says. He says, Man, I've

(52:42):
been listening to this record, man, and it's so beautiful,
I said. He says, I'm sorry I didn't call you yesterday,
but I just had to keep listening because I never
got to hear you like this before. He says, if
I could sing like you, I would never play my

(53:04):
horn again. I'm just so happy, and I'm sorry that
I missed out that this is what you had to give.
And then the very Andy says, my only problem is
that I'm not fucking on it. So if you make

(53:27):
another fucking record, man, you better make sure I'm fucking
playing on it.

Speaker 2 (53:31):
Okay, I love you call.

Speaker 3 (53:33):
Me And I think it was in that moment that
I realized that I had made it for him in
the first place. You know, I didn't know. I didn't
know that I needed him to see how much of

(53:58):
him resided in me. But I just wanted him to
know that I've been paying attention.

Speaker 2 (54:07):
Man.

Speaker 3 (54:07):
You know, my earliest memories with my father were standing
you know, we're being in the club. Was being in
the club with him on the weekends when he had me.
My dad wasn't taking me to the park. He was
taking me to the club, you know. And I'm watching
him put.

Speaker 2 (54:26):
On shows and.

Speaker 3 (54:29):
Till two, three four in the morning, staying for the
second set, and I was studying him the whole time.
I was mesmerized. I didn't even know he was like
to me, he wasn't even from this planet, and so
that shit was like being so printed into me. And

(54:50):
then it made me realize that the disturbance within me, like
this thing that I had to get out, was that shit,
and that was the only way that I was going
to find my equilibrium. And I wanted I just wanted him.
I wanted him to know that I had been paying
attention and that he had done his job.

Speaker 1 (55:12):
Did you guys ever talk about it towards the end
when he was starting to get sick.

Speaker 3 (55:18):
No, No, I think we made a record together before
he passed. I honored him when we were doing the
second album. I called him, I said, you said you
wanted to be on this shit, man. He said, I'll
be there in two weeks.

Speaker 2 (55:36):
Packed his shit.

Speaker 3 (55:37):
Seventy three years old, on a plane from South Africa,
came to the studio, hung out for two weeks, made.

Speaker 2 (55:43):
A dope record again, and I think it was in
the healing, was in the music for us.

Speaker 3 (55:55):
When my dad got sick, he had prostate cancer, it
was for the second time.

Speaker 2 (56:05):
He was so disappointed in himself that he had gotten sick,
that it had gotten away from him, that.

Speaker 3 (56:21):
He felt shame, to the point where I was there
by his side, lying in bed with.

Speaker 2 (56:29):
Him as.

Speaker 3 (56:34):
He was.

Speaker 2 (56:37):
Moving towards his transitioning.

Speaker 3 (56:44):
But we had these experiences together where like he just
wanted to kick it normal. We were not going to
have it tuesdays with Maury. That shit was not happening.
I remember the first time that he caught me looking
at him for too long, What the fuck are you
looking at? Don't look at me like that, you know.

(57:12):
And there was so much that I wanted to say
in that moment, but I recognized that that was my ship,
not his, and that if this is how he wanted
to go, and he just wanted me to be around

(57:33):
and to hang and that we weren't gonna fucking get
all that other shit, that that was okay, and that
it was taking place within us without words.

Speaker 1 (57:49):
It was a feeling.

Speaker 2 (57:50):
It was a feeling, but it's a.

Speaker 3 (58:07):
It's such a such a crazy thing, man, to to
watch someone that you have only viewed as immortal whither
whither away, like to watch to watch them disintegrate into

(58:38):
the next space. It's a very radical thing. I have
had times in the wake of my father's final passing
where I was like, why couldn't he have just gotten
hit by a car? Why couldn't he have just not
had like an immediate event. I was trying to justify, like,

(59:03):
what back that suddenly being thrown into the grief thing
that somehow that might have made it better, because watching
him disintegrate for two years was it was heavy, man,
was really really heavy. I treasure it now, and I

(59:24):
also don't wish it on anybody.

Speaker 1 (59:26):
You know, do you talk to your father still?

Speaker 2 (59:29):
Yeah? I've seen him. Yeah, I've seen him. Is there anything.

Speaker 1 (59:37):
Left unsaid outside of the music that you haven't told him?

Speaker 2 (59:45):
I had an experience. I had a.

Speaker 3 (59:49):
Medicine journey two years ago and it was with the
grandmother Ayahuasca, and.

Speaker 2 (01:00:05):
My dad came to me and he was magnificent, like
astral regal magnificence. And I'm seeing.

Speaker 3 (01:00:24):
Him and like he's it's just a level of joy
and and wholeness of him that I was just in
awe and then within my experience, he embodied me.

Speaker 2 (01:00:40):
He came inside my body and we laughed.

Speaker 3 (01:00:50):
So hard, like we laughed in concert. I felt it
in all of my cels in a way that was
like I felt him, and it was the most beautiful,

(01:01:11):
like everything is cool. Man, You're good. I see you,
You're You're fantastic, and don't worry about me like I'm good.
And I remember when it was time for him to go.
When he left, I felt him physically leave me, and

(01:01:37):
I went from laughing harder than I ever laughed in
my life because that's what we did together.

Speaker 2 (01:01:42):
We just fucking laughed. Man.

Speaker 1 (01:01:45):
My favorite, My favorite thing at that panel is the
picture of him laughing with you at the end.

Speaker 3 (01:01:50):
Yeah, that's what we did. We were always laughing together.
And there the pain in that moment when I felt
him leave. Oh I cried, Michael, Oh I wept. I

(01:02:10):
wept in a way I didn't even know what's possible,
Like it was like this crazy pendulum swing. But in
in the in the in the back end of grieving
that I didn't get to continue to hold onto that
feeling was this peace and this joy that I've been

(01:02:32):
able to carry ever since. And I still talked to
him and I and I feel like he man especially
in the last year. This is it'll be seven, it'll
be eight years that since my father passed. But in
the last year the manner in which I felt.

Speaker 2 (01:02:51):
Him being like.

Speaker 3 (01:02:54):
A little more trouble, a little more base, bring up
the midies here and how I'm getting clarity into what
the next chapter of my existence is so that I
don't have to follow, I don't have to learn some
of the things in the way that he did.

Speaker 2 (01:03:14):
I feel like he has actively came in and just
been like, yeah, three degrees to the right, tune it
down here and octave up over here. That's what I
feel from him now.

Speaker 3 (01:03:30):
And yeah, man, it's it feels like it's still very
much a powerful togetherness that we have. And then the
the linear you find yourself grieving still the lack of

(01:03:55):
their ability to have their physical presence in this dimension, right,
but it's far more now of like a I feel
like I'm growing a sort of a spiritual exoskeleton that
he's three D printing onto me from the beyond.

Speaker 1 (01:04:21):
So it's been ten years since my dad left and
we're talking about you meeting him in that ceremony. My
dad hasn't come to me in dreams, and I want
to say like eight years and last Thursday, for Thanksgiving,
I woke up and I just felt normal. But my

(01:04:44):
dad came in my dream, and they say, and dreams
is very rare for the ancestor to speak. But I
had a full convo.

Speaker 3 (01:04:54):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (01:04:55):
And then I woke up like this sense of joy
that you're describing, and it didn't hit me that I
wasn't real and then I, you know, you can't go
back to the dream. But then I was like, what
is he trying to tell me from there? And it
was the first time since his funeral that my aunt,
my cousins, my uncle went to have Thanksgiving on my mom.

(01:05:19):
Last time they were at the house I grew up
in Ventura was ten years ago at his funeral, and
that's where my dad came to me. And I spent
all day to day knowing I was going to see you.
It's interesting my dad immigranted to the East LA. My
mom's in San Jose, so in my household, music wise,

(01:05:39):
my mom was into like tower power and you know,
Marvin Gay and my dad was into like the Mid
Niners and the Four Tops, and it was like this mix.
But my dad loved jazz. And I was searching, bro,
and I'm going to find it. He had your dad's record,

(01:06:03):
and I'm going to give it to you when I
find it. And I looked for him there. I was like,
there's gotta be a reason why I'm talking to my
dad literally today when people are setting up. Well, I
couldn't find the record, But what do you want me
to give to you? Right? So I go to a
record store and and now it all makes sense. The

(01:06:24):
record that I that I chose or that chose me
to give to you from your own dad.

Speaker 2 (01:06:36):
There you got it right here. Oh oh man, that's
the one too, Bro.

Speaker 1 (01:06:50):
For those that are listening, it's the Emancipation, Oh Hugh,
me mess of calab But till right now, the picture
you showed that got me so excited was literally the
same smile.

Speaker 3 (01:07:04):
Yeah, it's so cool. You see the the flags right?

Speaker 2 (01:07:18):
Yeah? Like he was.

Speaker 3 (01:07:21):
He was He was such a like this is this
is such an act of rebellion, this this whole ship
with him in the top hat as Lincoln, Like what
are you talking about Yeah, man, he.

Speaker 2 (01:07:41):
What's really First of all, thank.

Speaker 1 (01:07:43):
You, But if this isn't the symbol of the conversation
with no, this is everything.

Speaker 3 (01:07:49):
This is this is everything. It's such a trip. It's
it's it's such a trip. And this is one of
my favorite photos of him. Yeah, right here, just like
singing from the depths of his existence. He was so cool.
And I was in a relationship that ended badly and

(01:08:12):
my former partner kept all of the records.

Speaker 2 (01:08:17):
Well then we'll start the record. So I had to
start all of my dad's records as a way to
like be like.

Speaker 3 (01:08:26):
And so I've been like slowly rebuilding my collection and
this is one of the ones that I'm missing. So
it's a it's a divine trip, man. But yeah, the
right one found us and I can't thank you enough.

Speaker 2 (01:08:47):
This is so cool, man, Thank you.

Speaker 3 (01:08:50):
Like, yeah, the fact that this man literally like he's
been in America for like five minutes at this point,
and this is the subversive ass you know, an African
as Lincoln.

Speaker 2 (01:09:07):
Ship. And I know the label must have been like
what are you doing here?

Speaker 3 (01:09:11):
I mean, we're on a roll here, you just you
we just made Grayson in the ground like we're good,
you don't you don't need to do this, and he
would have been like, fuck, Hilt, we're doing it.

Speaker 2 (01:09:23):
And that smile says it all.

Speaker 1 (01:09:25):
But the crazy thing to me is when you were
talking about you the hart Fop moment of the voice
message of your dad, and how he said, man, if
I would have had your voice, that's the only photo
I've ever seen of him.

Speaker 2 (01:09:44):
Singing, singing. Yeah, he's not playing the instrument.

Speaker 3 (01:09:48):
Yeah, yeah, I still can't believe that.

Speaker 2 (01:09:54):
And I always thought that my dad.

Speaker 3 (01:09:57):
I think my dad sings really, really good. He's got
a different voice. And I was always bummed because my
voice couldn't be as like I couldn't get that guttural raw,
the pain. But I didn't live what he lived, so
how could I have that voice? It's going to come

(01:10:19):
out different in me. And once I made peace with that,
that's when I actually felt comfortable in getting it out
because my whole the reason why I didn't make music
for twenty five years was because Hugh Masekel exists.

Speaker 2 (01:10:36):
Like no one's trying to hear from me.

Speaker 3 (01:10:39):
I felt like it was always going to be in
comparison to him, and I didn't want to let I
didn't want to fuck with the name, and like you know,
and I also just thought I wasn't.

Speaker 2 (01:10:51):
Allowed, you know, like where could I stand?

Speaker 3 (01:10:54):
And then the idea that you would think that you
need to be in comparison to your father's insane And yeah,
when he said that, that gave me, Like that was
like all the permission that I didn't know that I
ever needed.

Speaker 2 (01:11:10):
Beautiful. Yeah, man, thank.

Speaker 1 (01:11:13):
You, no, thank you.

Speaker 3 (01:11:14):
That is extremely extremely kind And like I said, it's
one of the ones that I'm missing.

Speaker 1 (01:11:22):
I'm gonna so this this episode, this every episode ends
with these things we call the Sacred Five, which is
our opportunity for folks that are watching or listening to
take practical things. I ask you, like five questions you're
answering a sentence.

Speaker 2 (01:11:42):
Or a word.

Speaker 1 (01:11:43):
I want to I want to share this.

Speaker 3 (01:11:44):
And then I got something else, be succinct.

Speaker 1 (01:11:48):
No, succinc whatever needs to come. But the first question
is name three things that make you feel safe, connected
and whole?

Speaker 2 (01:12:02):
The ocean, love and my friends and family, beautiful.

Speaker 1 (01:12:13):
What's one one song, book or prayer that brings you
back home to yourself?

Speaker 2 (01:12:20):
Mm hmmm, Stevie, wonder.

Speaker 3 (01:12:33):
Well, I'm just gonna say Stevie Wonder Songs in the
Key of Life.

Speaker 2 (01:12:38):
Like when I need to like sit with myself, I
just put that record on and go away.

Speaker 3 (01:12:48):
Like like inhabit this universe and some others and then
like settle back in me. Yeah, so that would be
the music. And then you said a book or a prayer.

Speaker 2 (01:13:09):
Book.

Speaker 3 (01:13:10):
It's you know what's funny is I just I just
got done rereading The Parable of the Sore and then
and then the Talents, And besides the fact that they're
so eerily happening now, it's all eerily now. I feel
like that's those books have been like a real a

(01:13:32):
safe space for my Every time I read those books,
my imagination is able to It's almost it's like the
first time, but I get something different from them. And
it also so it feels like it helps prepare me
for whatever the fight is today to not run because
it's very easy, especially now that we're adults and have means.

(01:13:55):
I have days where I'm just like, yo, can I
tap out? When I was in Australia, I was like
could I come back? Like I like this idea of
not feeling like there's the government and this country has
always felt like it's on my chest, but I've never
felt it like it's in my airway, like they're really

(01:14:15):
trying to constrict dust now, you know. But yeah, those books,
they just remind you that there's always a way, there's
always a way, there's always a way. It was a method,
and my prayer, my present sort of what has been

(01:14:36):
my prayer and my daily affirmation is very simple, and
it's just a little bit better today. That's my prayer.
I think I was in such a quest for thinking
that I needed to be perfect all the time, you know,
especially when you're in a front facing job and you're

(01:15:00):
you're not like everybody else, so you have to be great.
I thought that that in turn had to apply to life,
and that's not attainable in any way, shape or form,
and it will it will damage the fuck out of
you to to try.

Speaker 2 (01:15:18):
And so I've really learned a little bit better today.

Speaker 1 (01:15:24):
So the next question is what's one daily ritual practice
that grounds you surfing?

Speaker 2 (01:15:33):
You do it every day? Try to? I try to
when I'm home. I want to go live with you. Man.

Speaker 3 (01:15:39):
If i'm home, I'm at the ocean. So and sometimes
sometimes it's not even the act of surfing, just going
on the water. Sometimes it's sometimes it's just being at
the beach talking about the surf and talking ship. It's
incredibly incredibly ground And if it's not surfing, then it's

(01:16:01):
just movement.

Speaker 2 (01:16:03):
Okay, cool movement.

Speaker 1 (01:16:05):
What's one small action that listeners can take today on.

Speaker 2 (01:16:08):
Their healing journey self love? Okay?

Speaker 1 (01:16:14):
And the last one kind of I think you kind
of said about what's a one line blessing or quote
that inspires.

Speaker 3 (01:16:21):
You You're never going to have it all figured out?

Speaker 1 (01:16:27):
Cool dilemma, Selemma.

Speaker 3 (01:16:33):
That is me that they used to say, Celemma, who
is always in a dilemma. That's how my teachers would
would lovingly open up the parent teacher conference and then
go down the long list.

Speaker 1 (01:16:53):
Well, I usually spend this time to just reflect back
the things that really touched me. Besides the fact that
when I find the other record for your collection, I
have to come over to the beach and cook in
honor of our fathers, who both love to eat.

Speaker 3 (01:17:13):
Okay, less, so that's the trigger. Iron eight eighty is waiting.

Speaker 1 (01:17:21):
For you, all right, you know, make some nice Mexican
gardnessada or something. There's so much I want to share
three things I was my life is always in threes.
The first as you find freedom in being yourself and

(01:17:49):
that you can continue to be yourself even when you're
a public facing person, even when you have the resources
to go abroad or go other places. And that's like
to me, the truest definition of a man is to
be comfortable on his own skin. And so first I

(01:18:11):
just want to affirm you just being you.

Speaker 2 (01:18:14):
Thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:18:15):
The second thing is the strength to be emotionally expressive
and to hold all the emotions. That's the purest form
of manhood that there is, because you're going to live longer.

(01:18:42):
But like the water, that's the part of the purification process.
And the last thing I want to share, and not
even for me, but from your father, Your father's greatest

(01:19:07):
work of art, his greatest song he composed, his greatest
gift to the world is who I'm sitting across from.
And you are his love. That is his legacy. You
are his love that's immortal. And if I could speak

(01:19:32):
on his behalf, I would just say I'm so proud
of you and I love you and thank you for
being the son I always wanted to have. And I
hope that my son at some point can say the
same thing about me. And when I look at you,
I'm like, that's the standard and all of its imperfections
and off its perfections, And so just thank you for

(01:19:56):
being who you are. Thank you for carrying a powerful
name forward. Thank you for opening doors, thank you for
wearing the Abraham Lincoln beard in your own right. And
I just I gained a lot from this conversation. So
thank you for being so willing and so presant to

(01:20:17):
be here.

Speaker 2 (01:20:19):
That is that is about as.

Speaker 3 (01:20:25):
Beautifully humbling a statement that has ever been made about me.

Speaker 2 (01:20:30):
I'll receive it. There was a time in which I
would have been unable to and I thank you.

Speaker 3 (01:20:43):
I can't really, I can't really put in the words
what that means, and I didn't know that I needed
to hear it in that manner.

Speaker 2 (01:20:54):
So thank you very much man in this I knew
this was going to be good, but fuck.

Speaker 3 (01:21:06):
Yeah, it's our The gift that we got to be
connected this year is definitely.

Speaker 2 (01:21:14):
A divine one man.

Speaker 3 (01:21:15):
And I'm sitting like I'm just sitting in this moment
like marveling at it yet again, but in a way
that I could have never comprehended.

Speaker 2 (01:21:23):
So thank you, my brother, Yeah, thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:21:27):
Sacred Lessons is a production of My Heart's Michael through
our podcast network, Sacred Lessons Media, and the Prince Group.
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