May 18, 2026 • 58 mins
In this episode of Sacred Lessons, host Mike de la Rocha sits with Tonatiuh for a powerful conversation about gender, identity, and the cost of living inside expectations that were never ours to begin with. From his acclaimed performances in Kiss of the Spider Woman, Vida, and Promised Land, Tonatiuh reflects on how masculinity is often shaped by perception, performance, and power, and how the world responded to him based on how closely he aligned with traditional ideas of masculinity. Together, Mike and Tonatiuh explore gender as a social construct, the pressure to conform, and the freedom that comes from embracing a more expansive understanding of identity and self-expression.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
What are the cycles fathers passed down that son, so
they're left to heal. What if being a man was
about holding it all together but learning how to let go.
This is a space where men speak truth and find
the power to heal and transform. I'm Mike Dela Rocha.
Welcome to Sacred Lessons. Some of the first lessons we
(00:23):
learn about who we are don't come from within, They
come from how the world sees us. Welcome to Sacred Lessons.
I'm Mike Dela Rocha. In this special episode, we're going
to explore how the world defines us based on how
we look, where we come from, how closely we match
the dominant idea of what a man should or should
(00:45):
not be, And today's conversation asks what happens when you
refuse to live inside those expectations. My guest today is
award winning actor Tona Tiu, whose work on screen and
in life challenges the rigid boundaries of gender identity and expression.
(01:06):
From his powerful performance and Kiss of the Spider Woman
to his roles in Vida and Promised Land, his work
invites us to question not just what we see, but
why we see it the way we do. And today
we're going to talk about perception, masculinity, and what it
means to be full of yourself in a world that
(01:28):
constantly tries to define you. I want to give shout
outs to Monica and Raisado because they brought us together.
And I remember when I got invited. I was like, oh, yeah,
well who would I be in conversation with? And then
mentioned your name and I was like immediately yes, please,
(01:49):
oh really yes, because I had been following you online,
but also because my favorite time of that whole experience
was when you and I first actually physically met and
we had dinner and we had that burger to Stue Burger's,
and in real time, you were you were you. I'm
(02:10):
never shared this, but you were modeling to me how
much of our identity is performance. And I don't know
if you remember this, but you were like, hey, Mike,
I could show up masculine, and then you switched over,
I can be feminine, and and it wasn't about the binaries.
You were just trying to model the reality. But to
me it was it clicked so hard because I was like, oh, wow,
(02:32):
you know what I'm saying Like it was like I'm crazy. No, no, no, no, no,
it was. It was beautiful because I, uh, it just clicked.
There was no textbook. It was just like, oh wow,
Like I was reflecting on myself, like and how much
do I perform and what spaces do I perform in?
And then we had the conversation with Antonio and that
(02:52):
was beautiful and I just wanted more of that. So
more than anything, I want to thank you for your work.
I have no power in Hollywood, but I will say
if I did, you would have been nominated for every
award for Kiss of the Spider Man's very sweet thank you.
You know you got these blockbuster names, but by far,
(03:13):
and I'm not saying this because we know each other,
by far, you were the star of that movie. So
I thank you for your artistry. I thank you for
your life's work. I thank you for expanding my personal
views of myself in the world. So just thank you
for being here. It means a lot.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
I really appreciate that. And I yeah, I remember Monica
asking me to moderate that conversation and I said yes,
just because the subject matter was just so great, and
picked up your book and my first instinct is I
need to meet you guys, like I don't want to
moderate something without knowing each other's energies or like you
(03:50):
know what we're about and so, and it was just
such a warm and inviting fun space. You literally walk
around like an open heart and meditated by a creek
and found a feather which your gifted me, which was
so sweet, which I still have. So, yeah, brother, what's
going on?
Speaker 1 (04:07):
Yeah? Well I wanted to jump in. You know, obviously,
this this issue of identity is one that's always been
in fluid, but right now we're living in a time
when things are starting to the forces that be the
structures that we wanted to be very rigid, very binary.
And my first question I was like, do you remember
(04:28):
the moment early on when you first understood about your
identity and about gender and stuff like that.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
Well, I don't know. As a kid, I was always
like effeminate. I loved like Sparkles and Barbies and my
little ponies, and I think like when I was five,
I asked for a Barbie's dream House and you know,
and I think like my parents were just super just
be who you are kind of vibe. But I think
(04:57):
that there was a world where who I was didn't
fit people's understandings or schemas as to like what a
boy should be and so mean naturally, like bullying becomes
a part of it. And then in high school I
just started learning. I started taking acting classes, and I
was like, oh, I can be whatever I want to be.
And so then it became kind of a like a
(05:19):
sport for me, where it was just like, oh, how
many different friend groups can I infiltrate and like transform
myself and learn what they wear and their jokes. And
then it became this like because I've always like loved
people and I have a very like non judgmental spirit,
and so it'd be turned into one of those things
where I was like, Okay, well, how many people like
(05:41):
it became a hunger for their like experience, if that
makes sense. But then I started doing it professionally and
I was just like, oh, well, now, like what does
it look like with a bigger budget, and what does
it look like with this and with that. But on
an interpersonal level, I think that like the expectations of
(06:02):
masculinity had always been pushed upon me, and I performed
it to the best of my ability in high school
and college. But then I went to the complete opposite
where I was like well, I don't want to perform that,
and I want to be expressive in gender queer and
use day like head ay pronouns and and so I
(06:22):
did that and I booked to be that, like that's
what that energy called ford that project. And then I
had a manager who told me, well, the reason you're
not booking the jobs that you want is because you
don't look like the guys who are booking it. So
like it's not you don't have the talent, it's just
you're not that. And so again I love a challenge,
and so then I was like, well, then I will
be that, and I did, and then I booked Promised
(06:44):
Land and carry on right, And so it was just
interesting because like I didn't have I'm not feeling like
sensitive about my form. I'm selling a product, right, and
who I am in my personal life is irrelevant and
so with cause. So the Spider Woman, it was one
of those things where I was like I was asked
(07:04):
to be the totality of everything that I had experienced
over the last you know, ten twelve years in this
industry and the many different energies and characters that I
had played before, and so it was really fun to
be able to play essentially the spectrum in two hours.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
Well let me so you're you. You your manager says, hey,
you need to almost like personify X whatever that X
was definition of I'm assuming a man in this situation.
So then you do it and then you book yep.
And what did this, I don't want to say, remind
you or what does this teaching about masculinity and power
(07:43):
in that situation?
Speaker 2 (07:45):
Well, I think you know, if I was a lesser
healed version of myself, I would have taken that very
personally right. I would have It would have destroyed me
because essentially what someone is subconsciously saying is well, you're
not it right. Who you are is preventing you from
getting the thing that you want, which is devastating to hear,
especially if you're an artist. And you know, call me
(08:07):
the Mexican mystique, but like I want to be known
for transforming into and looking different and you know, and
to use my vessel to tell as many different stories
as I can. And so but I was an older,
more mature version of myself, and I was more healed,
and so I was just like, well would an architect
(08:29):
get upset if somebody said they didn't like arches in
the design. No, they just changed the design. Right, I'm
not selling. They're not asking me to change my way
of being in the world. They're asking me to change
my way in the market. Right, what's being sold in
the market. And so with that cognitive switch, then it
just became like, Okay, I'll lower my voice, I'll grow
(08:53):
some facial hair, and I'll gain twenty pounds muscle and
the new book, the new book.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
So with kius a Spider Woman, was was that one
of the first role that you felt that you didn't
have to do that? Would you just subscribed?
Speaker 2 (09:05):
I had to do all of it right now, to
do all of it actually with because of the Spider Woman.
When I first auditioned for it, I obviously saw the
construction of the story and Molina is this in my
interpretation gender queer individual, right? And I wanted to portray
them as non binary or well I use the word
gender queer as opposed to non binary for them specifically.
(09:31):
So I was like, okay, well, how do I take
this body that I'm in and still translate that for
the audition tape? Right? But then once I got it,
then it became of okay, I were shooting the musical first,
which means I get to be Kendalled Nesbit first, and
Kendall is a nineteen forties classic American man in like
(09:53):
a Broadway musical or not Broaday musical, in a musical film,
and so I was like, okay, we need to classic
Hollywood micro mannerisms. I like, I was doing facial exercises
to like have those things be expressed, and I lost.
I think at that point I went from one ninety
to one sixty in about thirty days. And then we
(10:16):
shot that, and then I fasted to get down to
one forty three for Molina so that they could have
that full, you know, gaunt, non binary esqueness. And I
knew I could achieve that look because that's what I
looked like when I was in high school, you know,
and so last year, last year, so you know, so
(10:39):
I was just like I just happed into that and
and it was fun because like there were moments where
I was like, oh, okay, I get to bring in this
gene Kelly esque energy, and then I get to bring
in my effeminate energy elsewhere, and then I get to
play this Hollywood starlet at the very end, and so
it was just it really required me to just be
everything that I had always been, you.
Speaker 1 (10:59):
Know, and then taking from the professional space and world
where you're acting, you're paid to act, and you're showing
these different characters in this film, then when you go
back into out of care.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
The world, Yeah, and you're one, you're.
Speaker 1 (11:15):
Forty to fifty pounds less. How did the world treat
you that way than when you gained your weight back?
Speaker 2 (11:21):
Well, it's funny. I didn't realize it, like how I
was treated in my early twenties. When I looked my
more gender queer, gender bendy self, I forgot. But that
was like because I've spent more time now presently like
being you know, I weigh like one ninety and.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
Look fit too.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
It was saying, yeah, and my voice is deeper, and
I like, I mean, I still have some like effeminate
things because it's like I love the little jewelry. You
know who doesn't love jewelry? But uh, yeah, it was
It was weird because like, people don't really mess with
me as much as a like in this body in
this form, and it like and if I switch out
(12:02):
the shoes and I go to Timberlands and all of
a sudden, I'm we're in black, and you know, then
I really don't get messed with. But when I lost
to forty pounds and I was walking around, like people
assumed that I was Molina, people like even like the
people who were working on set, their partnering gift for
me was a woman's blouse or uh, and they gave
Diego a knife, and I was like, how come he
(12:23):
gets a cool last night? Can I cuts that on story?
Like how come he gets a fucking knife? And I
get like a woman's blouse. I don't want a woman's blouse,
Like what am I gonna do? Give that to my mom?
You know? And so it was just so funny. I
was like, oh wow, like people don't know, you know.
And and I started dating somebody immediately after shooting because
(12:44):
of the Spider woman, and mind you again, my body's
now like it went from twunk to twink really quickly.
And so I was like it was interesting because like
I was being courted in a way that like I
normally do the courting, and I, you know, I was
enjoying it. It was fun, but it was there was another
(13:04):
moment where I was like, this isn't my normal body,
like I will get back to where I normally am,
and in the course of a year, I've like returned
to to my regular form. But it was funny, it
was really really interesting.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
So what's the I guess the lesson for you on
this as for you, but also for for us or
those listening.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
I mean for me, like this this is all a joke.
Like it's all a joke, right, there's no rules, there's
no like there's inherited identities that you've kind of micro
created over time because you either like hung out in
a social group when you were a kid and then
that like taught you who you were. But I've had
like the very distinct pleasure of just traveling all over
(13:47):
the world and being a part of so many different
groups that like, you know, Huangavia can be playing one
second and then like Slipknot can be playing the next second,
and I'm like, yeah, I got it, you know what
I mean. So it's like it's it's like it's all
a joke. And and I personally like the ability of
you know, dressing silver Lake when I'm in silver Lake
(14:09):
and then dressing differently when I'm you know what I mean,
Like I like the to play with that, and I like, like,
how do you dance? How does a like a masculine
energy dance to an Ariana Grande song? Like what? No?
Like full diva needs to come out, babe? Like the
song is bubble like be bubble like right the way?
Be the energy, you know? And I think, like it's
(14:30):
been interesting dating like that because some people can handle
the totality of that expression and other people whose expression
isn't as dynamic can be either intimidated or turned off
by it. But that's not my problem, that's their. Well.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
I was wondering if if I'm a young person that
feels a lot of pressures to conform to rigid definitions
or whatever identity I choose, Sure, what advice would you
give that person?
Speaker 2 (14:57):
The choosing always changes. M hm, that's the advice. It's like,
I think that the only thing that are static in
nature are inanimate objects and dead things.
Speaker 1 (15:10):
And even that people actually say that they're moving because
of the molecules in correct.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
Right. So there's just one of those things where I'm like, yeah,
today you're going to choose to be this vibe and energy,
and then tomorrow you may choose to be a different
vibe and energy and then in ten years you're going
to choose to be a different vibe and energy. And
I think that like focus more on your values and
your character than you do your appearance, and like have
fun with everything else like that the rest of it
(15:35):
doesn't really matter. Like I'd rather you be a person
of integrity and kindness than like mask or fem or whatever.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
Right right, you know, Yeah, we had an interview with
Anatub's you know, this book American Erased What American patriarchy
has hidden from us, And in that book, she argues
that exactly what we're talking about is why this system
was built on such rad binaries, because they wanted to
keep control sure, and they knew that the definition of
(16:06):
freedom is literally what you just said, you being able
to choose moment by moment how you want to be
seen or how you want to show up in the world.
And right now, structurally, culturally, folks are trying to just
nicely fits you into a box. And this illusion that
if you want to be successful, or if you want
(16:26):
to be rich and famous, whatever, you got to follow
this identity.
Speaker 2 (16:31):
But like no one's like who are the people that
we admire Culturally, right now, Like FKA Twigs isn't in
any kind of binary, Like bad Bunny isn't straddling any
level of binary, Like he's explored many different assets. And
I do think like there's a significant difference between polish
and unpolished, right right, Like I definitely think that there's
(16:56):
different visions and energies, Like if you look at my
red carpets the years, like I definitely have learned how
to present in a more polished way, not always, but sometimes,
you know, And I think that that's that's the mastery
of more of like who you are and what you're expressing.
But I don't know. I think that you're the especially
(17:16):
with like AI and everything, like there's you're as unique
as your own fingerprint, and so like if you're trying
to model something that's outside of you, you're gonna be miserable,
right right, Like, I think that that the fun part
is that you're you. You're just this like hodgepodge of
all these different things that you've experienced.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
I was going to ask you what, in your opinion,
what would be a healthier expansive version of masculinity. But
it's almost like expansive definition of personhood or human being.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
Right. Well, I've asked myself this question a lot, where
I was like, I like to think critically about things
like what is the what is the feeling that you
get when you hear my name? Or like what is
the definition of you? Not like the Aztecs sun god,
but me the person? Right? And then I start thinking
critically like well, who am I as a husband? Who
(18:11):
am I as a coworker? Who am I as a leader?
You know whatever? And so I look for adjectives or
I look for definitions in those things. But as I do,
I'm like, well, how is that any different? Like why
does that live in a binary between masculine and feminine?
(18:32):
You know? I think like ultimately, it's just looking for
like good characteristics of people, right, And I do think
like my natural essence is a little bit more Yang,
Like I have more Yang energy than I do yin
meaning like if I see it, I want to go
get it, you know, which I could benefit from some
(18:54):
temperance or patience. Sorry team, but shout out to all
my exes. No, but I think that like I don't know,
Like I don't I think that all the things that
make a man a man is the same things that
make a good person a good person.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
You know, in this conversation, it would almost seem if
I'm teasing it out that in this moment, I may
be choosing to be a version that's traditionally seen as
a man. Yeah, And then I can go out that
door and be choosing to be traditionally what a woman
for sure look like, and it's still the same person,
(19:33):
but I'm choosing to express myself in a different way.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
Oh, you're playing pretend like I do it as kids
all the time, Like it's used to be a cute,
sparkly dressed and you're like, oh, I won't try that on.
It's like wow, And then maybe you tried it on
and it was fun to put on just for a
second because you wanted to see what it looked like.
And you may not buy it, but like I don't think,
why rob yourself of the joy of the play of it?
All right? Like I really I've been finding it really
(19:59):
endearing that a lot of uh millennial fathers are painting
their toes and their nails with their kids. And I
always say that, like I feel like I was born
too early because this younger generation of like gen Z
people they are living their full fan fantasy or they're
living their gender queer fantasy, and I'm just too tired
(20:23):
to do that now, you know, Like I don't want
my lung clasticking out. I don't think that's fucking sexy
at all. But like I think it would have been
like if me and my twenties was like here now,
I'd be having the best time. But you know it's
like you do what do you want?
Speaker 1 (20:39):
You know, well guess and that which I agree with you.
Then this, then, my hope, really does let it in
and allowing this current generation not to be tainted, you
know what I'm saying, like just pour in, yes, yes,
and yes.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
But it's also my opic, like what like oh my god,
why are there? Why are there all these rules? Like
who are making up these rules? It's all made up.
We're all gonna die, Like relax, like have some fun.
Are you having fun? Or you don't think you're having fun?
You know, like I used to have. I fostered this
dog maybe ten years ago, beautiful pitbull. Oh my gosh,
it was so beautiful. And I named the dog Solia
(21:23):
and it's a word that my friend made up. And
it was like my nickname for her or her nickname
for me. It's like child of the Sun or whatever. Anyway,
the dog had a penis, but I put a pink
harness on the dog, and the dog had like very
(21:44):
feminine energy. It was very docile and very sweet and
you know, a little scared because it was living on
the streets for some time and so it's real personality
didn't really come out until like maybe two years later,
and then all of a sudden that was a dude.
But I use all pronouns with the dog, and people
on walking down the street would automatically see the pink
(22:04):
collar and say, oh my god, she's so beautiful. Can
I pet her? And then she would see like they
would see her penis and be like, oh my god,
I am so sorry. I am like key, and I
was like, the dog doesn't care. The dog doesn't speak English.
And they were like, well, you're going to traumatize the dog,
and I was like, no, I think you're traumatized, Like
just don't hit the dog, and the dog's happy, Like
(22:26):
the dog's fine. You're the one who's really dripping over
this like pronoun thing. But it was like a perfect
example where I was like, wow, you guys are really
stuck on these things. And I'm like, for what are
you gonna find the dog that's crazy like chill.
Speaker 1 (22:41):
That's true, that's a beautiful now, gee, because you're bringing
up projection. You're bringing up.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
The dog doesn't have a problem.
Speaker 1 (22:49):
The dog was chilling, the dog was whatever.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
But the dog does walk and treat.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
But the dog is also the metaphor for all of us,
you know what I'm saying, Like that dog could have
been you and and or me, and someone could have
came and projected like, oh, you're supposed to be showing
up like X, Y and Z because of how you're
shown right now. But again, that's not how I'm choosing.
That's how you're projecting how I should act, how should
I be in the world, you know, Yeah, And then
(23:15):
you know, so much of what I'm what I'm thinking
doing it through is like there's there's this interpersonal conversation
we're having, and then there's the macro And in the
macro level, there's definitely rigid there's laws, there's policies, there's
structures that are like forcing people to choose and and
(23:36):
and then and if you don't choose, there's consequences, you know,
and harmful ones. And that's where like for me, the
tensions always like uh, doing the and the both, like
fighting oppressive laws that are forcing people to have to
be like you're this, or you're that, or you can't
get access to this kind of surgery or whatever. That
(23:56):
is well at the same time, just being comfortable with
whoever I am in this space to acknowledge and to accept, like, yo,
this is this is freedom, this is joy, this is
liberations I love. And the more that I'm sitting in
this moment with you, I'm realizing recognizing that the folks
in my life that are the most happy, the most
(24:19):
joyful are the gender fluid, the non binary folks, and
they're the ones that teach me to be more fearless
because you know, in this society we associate strength with
dominance and control and power, but that, to me is
the real, definite strength to be who you are, unapologetically
(24:40):
despite what the laws of the world they want to
do to you.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
Well, here's this, Like, imagine a tree that is in
the midst of a hurricane. The stiffest tree with the
most rigid roots is the first to collapse. But the
tree that's able to withstand and go with the wind
in any which direction, is able to survive. And I
think that, like I think that rigidity comes from a
(25:06):
sense of fear right, like there's a well I don't
understand it or what is that? Or why would anybody
do that? You know? And I think that because it's fun.
I don't know, like what do you mean? Why what
would you do that? Like I got to play pretend
for a living, Like I get to absorb a character
and play it and enjoy it and the discover who
(25:30):
they are. I get to work with people who love
costumes and understand a history of it, and they bring
me options of a person that I don't even like.
I would never pick those clothes for me, And then
I put them on and I'm like, oh wow, actually
I've learned that this style suits me or I like
(25:51):
me in this energy. Like when I went to New
York for the first time, everybody was rocking like Timberland's.
I was like, baby, like, give me a get me
a sweet pair of Timberland and like I want that,
Like they were fine, they were fire like, and so
I just think that you're just have a nice time.
And I also think with like when it comes to
dominant cultures, it makes me wonder. I'm like, Okay, in
(26:13):
this culture, this is illegal or this is not appropriate
or accepted, but that doesn't mean that it's inherently wrong.
Like and what does nature have to say about that? Right,
Like intersects people exist in nature, Like even in an
animal kingdom, there are species that naturally change their gender
(26:36):
depending on the amount of male or female people available,
or like around them, yeah, around them, or like if
you look at indigenous culture to too, spirit people exist,
Musha people exist, and so it's just like, well, yeah, okay,
in America, you're saying that this doesn't exist because you're
(27:00):
in a position of power and you don't know the world.
But I mean the rest of the world is like
vibing with it, and nobody else seems to have a
problem with it. Yeah, you know.
Speaker 1 (27:09):
I also love the way that you reframe. When I
asked that question early on, I'm like, well, who who's
really helping me to define global culture right now? And
they are not subscribing to a role. They're they're they're
subscribing to all kinds of roles, and they're expansive and
they're showing it in and feeling proud of it. And
that's also why I think that they are where they
(27:30):
are right Like there's a there's a reason why there's
uniqueness in that uniqueness. But even like thinking about right
now in real time, Bad Bunny headlines to Super Bowl
arguably the most American day of the year in all Spanish. Yeah,
and even folks that don't know Spanish are seeing what
the joy, the happiness, the love, and he is basically like, yeah,
(27:54):
this is available to all of us, you know, saying
and what is the secret?
Speaker 2 (27:59):
Be you? There's there's this was it Jane Elliott? I
don't remember who it was. It might have been Jane Elliott,
because like there's this whole idea of you know, we're
a melting pot, and I don't want to be a
melting pot. I want to be a salad. A salad
has walnuts and lettuce and you know, the chicken, you
(28:22):
know whatever, like quemoa, and it can have like all
kinds of things. None of them are trying to be
what the other thing is, and you need all of
them to be what they are in order to create
a burst of delicious flavor. But if you blend a
salad altogether. It doesn't taste good, and it doesn't taste
the same. It has just like a you know what
I mean? So I think like there's a I need
you to be who you are fully, I need you
(28:45):
to express yourself fully. I need you to be honest
about what your fingerprint is saying, because then I can
respond or I can learn from it, like the diversity
of that helps us survive. Like and so many of
the ideas that I currently embody, or at least them
(29:07):
in the praxis of embodying, didn't originate for me. They
originated from people who that's their natural vibe and they
were able to teach me something that was a blind
spot for me, or a well that's not a good
word anymore shortcoming, you know, Like I have a friend
(29:28):
who's radically poly, radically poly, like he believes in there's
a galitarian poly memory and then he believes in what
is the word radical?
Speaker 1 (29:48):
I get lost, man, what I just met? No, And
the poly sl stuff is so foreign and new to
me that all these you know, there's all these sub
categories like you're saying and other things around all that.
Speaker 2 (30:00):
Sure, So in short, there are some people who practice
Polly and saying like you're my partner and everybody else
doesn't matter, and like they're just our playthings and whatever whatever.
But then there are other people who are like, well,
that's not particularly fair because those are humans with real
experiences that we should like also honor and be respectful
to and you know whatever. But his his lived experience
was friendship as a way of life, and so he's egalitarian.
(30:25):
Ever he believes that, like everybody's equal, and you could
be my partner that I live with, but I'm not
going to treat you specifically any different than like a
paramore or a person that I slept with. Like everyone's
going to get the best version of me. Everyone's going
to get the kindness, the trust, the honesty of me.
And you know, I think that was a challenge for
(30:47):
me as a human, and that idea didn't come It
comes to me naturally in theory, but in practice it's like,
oh my god, like scarcity comes up, or fear comes up,
or abandonment comes up, or primal panic comes up right,
and then all of a sudden, like these concepts create
(31:09):
a sense of fear of like a wounded child or
what and like you know what I mean, And so
then I I sad and think about it. I was like, well,
but why, Like I acknowledge that this is coming up
for me, that's fine, I'm not trying to gaslight myself
that it's not. But like, what can I learn from
(31:30):
someone who's living an experience that's so radically different from
me and he's not requesting that I participate in that?
But can I have grace for someone who wants to
enter my world and I'm trying to live a more
like heteronormative society like you know view, but they're not.
(31:50):
Why then do I implement my judgment or kink, shame
or you know whatever to this other person who's not
causing any harm. It just doesn't align, you know. And
so then then I'm like, oh, okay, well then how
can I then temper my own biases to allow you
(32:10):
to be the bird that you're meant to be? And
how can I make a safe enough space for you
to share your authentic self with me and then me
to say, wow, that's amazing. No, I don't want that
for me, but this is who my authentic self is
and this is where we can meet in the middle,
or this is how I can still support you and
all of that.
Speaker 1 (32:28):
I think the beautiful thing about that interaction that you
just shared was that there wasn't there wasn't a judgment.
There was a questioning curiosity of like why do I
feel this way? What is the bias? But I know
that this relationship matters to me, So I'm going to
talk about it and be like, hey, that may be
(32:49):
for you, but it is not for me. But where
is that middle?
Speaker 2 (32:52):
Yeah? Like why you know, I always find it curious
when like people break up and there's like a lot
of activity and you know, and I can understand, like
feelings can get hurt and you know that lives with people,
but I never really understood like unless someone did something
completely egregious. I'm just like, well, we broke up because
(33:13):
there was a misalignment, or we broke up because like
trust got eroded or or something like that. But I
still love you, I still care for you. I still
am excited about your energy. I still have like joy
for your success. Like I'm like, you know what I mean,
unless I'm like, you know, murder my mom or something like,
(33:35):
And even then I think I would be like, wow,
you must you're so hurt, Like I think you need help, right,
But it just makes me sad because I'm like, there
is a there's a world outside of us where like
why do we have to unlove one another for the
lived experiences that like we don't want for ourselves but
(33:57):
they do for themselves right right?
Speaker 1 (33:59):
Well, when I hear you talk, there is also the
role of community and relationship. It sounds like in your
life you have like a close knit group.
Speaker 2 (34:14):
Or not.
Speaker 1 (34:15):
Because my question is this so much of like the
healing journey or the running home back to yourself? I
like to say it's not an isolated journey, you know,
like I'm able to do this because of conversations like
this or because I have a group around me and mentors, partners,
what have you that want me to be the highest
(34:37):
version of myself. Yeah, and so I'm very clear that
healing happens in community at least that's like how I
view it. But I wonder in your life experiences what
role community has played or hasn't played.
Speaker 2 (34:51):
You know. I think right now I'm in an interesting
pivot point in my life, like so much has changed
in a short amount of time, and even in my
again theory versus praxis right, Like, I'm still becoming and
(35:11):
I still bump against my own wound itself, and I
isolate when I'm in this place of hurting, and I create,
but I create in a self container because of the
shame of allowing people to see me in agony. But
(35:32):
the irony is that it's in that vulnerability that my
community can do what they're supposed to, which is be there.
And like I the person hate vulnerability. I hate it.
(35:55):
I hate it. It's so horrible, it feels awful. It
feels horrible me. The artists love it because that's my weapon. Like, right,
I get to play with my feelings and my emotions,
et cetera. But I do think that, like I, money
can come and go, your career can change a thousand times.
(36:18):
But like, why are we actually here if not to
just enjoy each other while we are here, you know.
And in the last two or three months, like I've
kind of retreated and I've been stepping back into myself.
But I've been trying to be more conscious of like, Okay,
in my thirties, now in my mid thirties, who am
(36:41):
I now? You know? Consciously and I don't know, I'm
in this sense of wonder, But then there are just
some things where I'm like, yes, I may be changing
in certain regards, but a koyfish when they were small
and now has grown, some of those spots not changed.
They're just stretched right, Like I will always be the overthinking, sensitive,
(37:05):
like like person, But then I'm also the ratchet bitch
down the street who's cracking jokes like I will always
be both of those things. That's so, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (37:16):
I don't know if this is correct, but I was
rereading these books right here, and I think they said
the Greek root of the word trauma is wound. Okay,
And you brought up that some things are triggering old wounds,
which is where you're like, oh, well, I started to
retreat back because I'm still becoming what what was what
(37:41):
was triggering about that? Was it because you were becoming
something that you're on, like the uncertainty of it? Was
it bringing up something that something from the past?
Speaker 2 (37:50):
Is it?
Speaker 1 (37:51):
All of it? M?
Speaker 2 (38:07):
I guess I don't enjoy being known on a mass level.
That's why I have many faces on the wall that
I can choose from. M.
Speaker 1 (38:29):
You don't want the world to know the sacred version
of yourself that.
Speaker 2 (38:33):
I don't even know if it's the sacred version of myself.
I well, actually you know now that let me think
about that. Yeah, I think it's the most vulnerable part
of me. And so to be known is the most
(38:56):
beautiful and terrifying thing that can never happen to me.
And then to be known like, of course, I love
what I do, and I love my work, and I
really take pride in doing as good a job as
I can. Right, I don't want you to know me.
I want you to know my work, you know, like
look over there. But all of a sudden, like I'm
(39:21):
talking to people all over the world and I go
to dinners and people stop me. Or I like my
anonymity and it was taken from me, and that became
dangerous because then either they will like me or dislike me.
For the facade, I will be an enigma like a Beyonce, right,
(39:45):
Like she's an enigma, Like you know when he deeply
knows Beyonce, they just know her energy. Beyonce would love
to deeply get to know you. Or I can be authentic,
and then in that authenticity that comes the risk. And again,
like I said, I love being vulnerable on screen I
don't love being vulnerable in life. That sounds horrible, and
so I think that's where the fear really came from.
(40:09):
And also, like, what if they don't like me for
being authentically myself? This is why I don't do it.
This is why I don't do it. This is why
I don't show the real you create, put a put
a shadow puppet on it. You know, that's far more interesting.
They are going to like that, you know. So yeah,
(40:32):
that's what that's where the wound kind of came up.
And but I don't know, I don't know what the
answer to that is. Yeah, because right now I'm being authentic.
Speaker 1 (40:43):
I'm just yeah, you're just sharing. I deeply, deeply, deeply
resonate with this because you know, social media is so
much of a facadic because you choose a little what
you're gonna put out there, and then if you start
to get a little well known from film or whatever,
you can start to getting notoriety, at least for me.
(41:05):
And now I'm just I might be projecting right now,
so you know, full transparency. But like then, I've been
sitting with this tension too that if I'm wanting men
to be vulnerable, then I have to show it. I
got to model it, and it's hard to do that
on a on a public level because then the little
(41:26):
child in me is going to be a lot of
people that don't like that. And then then I start
to get hurt. That's my right exactly, because then I'm like, dude,
I'm just being me and and all the projection, all
the hate comes. But it's like, that's what makes That's
what I struggle. That's what I'm trying not to retreat to,
is that point, because then I'm no longer me, right,
(41:49):
and then I become the.
Speaker 2 (41:51):
Facade, right. But that's I think that that, to me
is the catch twenty two. Yeah, where I'm like, you
couldn't to me harder then for me to show you
all of who I am and for you to leave.
Speaker 1 (42:08):
Exactly.
Speaker 2 (42:11):
And I can understand a world where you know, if
an action I took was painful to you, then, but
then that's negotiated, talked about, repaired, right. But to lose
someone or to be disliked for authentically existing is scary
(42:35):
because of the rejunction level, and it triggers these abandonment things,
and a part of me is like, well, let me
entertain you let me make you smile. You know, you
treat me real good. If if I'm real good, I'll
treat you real good something like that. I'm very versatile,
(42:55):
but it is one of those things where I'm like, well,
I know how to give you the thing that you want.
I'll just tell me the role and I'll play the character.
But then like I'm like, well, but then you're miserable, right,
I don't want to play the character right, like to
say yeah that hurt or I love that, I love you.
You know that's scary.
Speaker 1 (43:16):
Yeah, you just I'm like, a, this is like a
becoming a I won't to speak for you, speak for me.
It's become like my therapy session right now, because you're right,
like my my fear of being abandoned for being my
own self is bringing up what happened when I was
a child, Yes, and which is why I gravitated to
(43:36):
all those that were always like jender fluid or punk
rocks or outcasts or whatever it was, because they would
embrace me from.
Speaker 2 (43:44):
There are the others.
Speaker 1 (43:45):
The others find the others correct.
Speaker 2 (43:47):
Because they have this. I think they share the same
abandonment fear, you know, or like there's a there's this
idea of like because I was a kid, like there
was a moment in my life where I was like,
oh yeah, I don't want to even be a part
of your club. I'm gonna I'm there. I'm crazy, I'm
the witch, You're the world. You know what I mean.
(44:07):
That's a quote from Sondheim. And I think that's why,
like a lot of queer people love witches and they
love the villains and they love like these big, extraordinary
characters because they feel like they've been rejected and they're
looking for someone to like say, well, I don't care
if you reject me. Rejecting a million times, it doesn't
hurt me, right it does, but it does, of course
it does. We're social creatures, we're pack creatures. Like it's awful.
(44:33):
It's awful. And I think, like my newest play where
is like, well, how do I not abandon myself in
those instances? Because like, how do I hold both I
respect your autonomy and I respect your decision to stay, go, participate,
not participate, take a step forward, take a step back
from my life and not crumble, and also just say
(44:55):
like I do have utility and worth and I don't
need you to choose me in order to have that,
and I can still love you despite or I can
love you through the choices that you make for yourself.
I'm not great at it, but I'm great at different business.
(45:18):
Like you know, if I audition and the job goes
to someone else, like, I'm like, oh great, you know, muzzle,
can't wait to see what they do. But in like life,
like if to lose a friend or to lose a
lover to laugh, like, wow, that's a lot.
Speaker 1 (45:32):
Is you know, just is there where you are now
in your becoming and in your age. What would you
tell the younger version of you?
Speaker 2 (45:46):
Oh, I would say, you're just so deeply lovable. I
would I would just hold him. I would hold him
so much, and just like play, pretend and tell stories
in the bath. And I would beat someone's ass if
they even fucking came for him whatsoever, Because like I
(46:10):
think I'm gonna cry. I think the world teaches you
to hate yourself. And I spent so many years self
flagellating and contorting myself to please or to ask someone
to stay. And I remember two years ago, after I
(46:31):
finished Kiss of the Spider Woman, I was like, I
made a commitment to God, which you should never break
a commitment to God because it will mess you up.
But I did. I remember when I auditioned for it,
I like lit a candle and I prayed and I said,
you know, I think I spiritually this feels like an alignment.
And if I get this, I refuse to allow myself
(46:54):
to be just regulated by anybody. I refuse to not
give this one hundred and ten percent of all of me.
And I dedicate this to all of the avatar generations
of me that have you know, risen and fallen and
turned me into the artists of the person that I
am today to bring forth this thing that I'm being
(47:16):
called upon to do. And I know, like this is
so much mumbo jumbo actor bullshit, but that's how I
take my work. That's my work, Like this is this
is my calling, and there's healing in this story and
I've witnessed it, like I've witnessed people who've also felt
(47:36):
this pain, in this agony and whatever and come to
me and they were like, wow, I felt seen in
this moment, and so but yeah, I think now I'm
like that was awesome and I'm glad I did it.
That wasn't my life. That was a job. And so
now I'm looking like to my left and to my right,
(47:58):
and I'm like, oh shit, I forgot to create here,
So now I got to create again. And that's kind
of the fun part.
Speaker 1 (48:06):
I don't know, Well, thank you for your vulnerability. I
was getting emotional because when I asked you what you
would tell your young self, you pretty much said what
I need to tell my young self, you know. And
that's where I think our relationship and our relationships with others.
(48:28):
I think if we could do that in all stages
of life, then that's what God or create or spirit
would want, because everything around us wants us to forget
that and we just want to be We all want
to belong, we all want to connect, we all just
want to be loved, because at the end of the day,
that's what we are. We're personifications of love, you know,
(48:49):
And so thank you for sharing that.
Speaker 2 (48:52):
Yeah, of course, and I'm I'm happy to love on
your inner child, and you know what I mean, like
an equally protect that motherfucker from them. You know, I'll
throw hands, But it just it is funny, like I
think that is like ultimately what we're about is just
being love and action as much as you can and
(49:15):
have fun. Yeah, to collect shot, we're.
Speaker 1 (49:17):
Gonna die before this last section. Is there anything on
your heart that you want to share? Anything else that's
coming up?
Speaker 2 (49:24):
Mm hmmm, mm hmmm. I think for people it's very
(49:44):
easy with social media and with TV et cetera, especially
if you're chasing a career in this industry too. Forget
the human aspect of it outside of the product, right,
because like there's a product that need to be made,
but that's not that's not worth the love that you
(50:11):
share with another person. And I think like having grace
for yourself and having grace for other people's humanness is
really good. I'm really good at giving other people grace.
I'm not so good at giving to myself. So if
you're hearing this and it resonates with you, I think,
just go and tell somebody you love them, because you
(50:32):
don't know when you're gonna lose them. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (50:41):
Well this is the last part. Uh oh, it's called
the Sacred Five. It's five rapid fire questions. I ask
you a question, you answer in a word or sentence,
and it's our way to give practical advice to those listening.
Or watching question one boom, name three things that make
(51:03):
you feel safe, connected and whole.
Speaker 2 (51:05):
Ooh uh. Weighted blankets, um goes back to the waning
to be Hell, I do, I love it? Oh my god,
squish me. It's like put me back into my body. Honestly, Incense,
I really love incense, Goba like any kind of incent
and I love the smell of that, and baths like
(51:27):
I'm a very tacticle sensory person. That brings me back
to myself.
Speaker 1 (51:31):
Cool, weighted blankets, copa stage plant, incense and what was
last love?
Speaker 2 (51:40):
Good back?
Speaker 1 (51:42):
What song book or prayer brings you back home to yourself?
Speaker 2 (51:46):
In my mind? By Amanda Palmer. Uh. In my mind,
I imagine so many things, things that aren't really happening.
And when they put me in the ground, I start
pounding the lid, saying I haven't finished yet. I still
have a tattoo to get that says I'm living in
the moment.
Speaker 1 (52:01):
Beautiful. What's one daily ritual or practice that grounds.
Speaker 2 (52:07):
You It's not appropriate for this channel. Yeah sex now,
uh a daily ritual? Honestly, Walking in the sun. Yeah,
walking in the sun. I need like my current apartment,
which I'm moving it is so dark, and I get
so sad in dark spaces, like I need the sunlight
(52:27):
to like write me up. I was laughing.
Speaker 1 (52:31):
I was laughing because that last question Curly was on
the show.
Speaker 2 (52:35):
Oh yeah, and he goes.
Speaker 1 (52:37):
He literally verbat him and said, I can't say it
for this show.
Speaker 2 (52:41):
Say no.
Speaker 1 (52:42):
It's like saying yes the truth of course. Yeah, I'm masturbad.
And then I say the rosary.
Speaker 2 (52:49):
And I was like, well, not in that order, and
I was like, listen, sex magic, it is all right.
Speaker 1 (52:55):
What's one small action that listeners can take on their
healing journey.
Speaker 2 (53:00):
Oh, we actually were connecting over it just before we started.
Is a very simple incantation. It's I am blank. You
gotta fill in the blank, but you got to be
very careful. It's the most powerful spell you can ever cast.
There's no more powerful spell. I dare you to find one.
I can't. I disagree. And whatever you finish it with
(53:21):
is the thing that you will become. So you have
to be very very diligent. And some spells are harder
to undo than others. So if you say I am stupid,
I am powerless, I'm a monster, I am a narcissist.
I am evil. Those spells are really hard to undo,
and it takes a lot of other incantations like I
am good, I am honest, I'm kind, I am love,
(53:41):
I am becoming, you know, to undo those. But you
have to have to have to be careful. And I
think that the best thing that anyone can do is
to grab a piece of paper. But I am at
the top and define it and live in your commitment,
live in your commitment, because your feelings aren't your commitment,
Your habits aren't your commitment. Your you know, mood is
(54:07):
in your commitment. But if your commitment is to be honest,
if your commitments to be kind and to be love
and to be a good person, then like it will
put you through that and eventually it becomes a habit
that becomes your character and that becomes your life.
Speaker 1 (54:20):
I am I am last one sure one line, blessing
or quote that inspires you.
Speaker 2 (54:30):
Okay, I actually got this from Jennifer Lopez's mom. God's
got me, God's got me, God's got me. She wore
a T shirt that said God's got me. And I
just looked at it, and I'm not particularly religious, and
so I looked at it and I like, my instinct
was like huh, and then I thought of it. I
(54:52):
was like, huh, yeah, yeah, God's got me. If I'm
ever freaking out, God's got me. If I'm about to panic,
God's got me. If I don't know if what's gonna
happen next, where the next job is going to land,
what I'm going to create, if this person's gonna you know,
respond to this email or you know whatever, God's got me.
(55:14):
God's got me. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (55:16):
What do I always wrap up by just sharing some
reflections or just what we talked about, just like mirror,
or just things that are really sticking out first and foremost.
Yet again, I feel like we're having a really big
juicy burger in Aspen, but it's here in Los Angeles,
(55:39):
in Hollywood, because again you are expanding me to embrace
the fullness of life. Yea, and for that I genuinely
thank you. I also just want to in the I
Am statement, I want to remind you of how beautiful, powerful,
(56:01):
expansive you are, and so that the same grace you
give to others that you can give to yourself.
Speaker 2 (56:06):
I will I will receive. I will receive it.
Speaker 1 (56:10):
And the last thing I don't I have more questions
than answers, But I hope that we can hold hands
and hold each other enough to find the ability to
be our authentic selves vulnerable in a public way where
we're not harmed. And I think I know for me,
(56:32):
the answer for me might be I have to really
just have to really do a lot more work on
my inner child that's afraid. But when I'm around you,
I feel hope that I can do that and that
we're we're like you said, we're becoming, We're unfolding, we're expanding.
(56:53):
And you mentioned three powerful words that I just want
to say back to you, which is I love you.
I love you. I hope I hope you know that
like you make all of us better, even those I
don't know you, Like we watch you and we see like, man,
if I could be that person in real life, then
(57:15):
I will be the manifestation, personification the feeling of love
and that only happens because of who you are and
all of these experiences. That's very sweet, no, but it's
just it's the truth. And I just want you to
know that you need help moving apartments, you need you
want me to lock up on someone, like whatever you need,
(57:39):
just we need more thrown thos in the world. And uh,
and I really humbly just thank you for for not
the artistry, yes, but the person more and so thank you.
Speaker 2 (57:52):
I appreciate it. And there's a I'll button it with.
I've always said I'm a professional shape shrift, but an
amateur human because it's true. It's like this may be
my first time on this planet and I'm figuring it
out like the rest of us, you know. Yeah, and
so it makes me really happy to see you in
the work that you do and to continue our conversation.
Speaker 1 (58:14):
Yes, thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (58:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (58:16):
Likewise, all right. Sacred Lessons is a production. My Heart's
Michael through it, a podcast network, Sacred Lessons Media, and
the Prints Group. For more of your favorite shows, visit
the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
What are the cycles fathers passed down that son, so
they're left to heal. What if being a man was
about holding it all together but learning how to let go.
This is a space where men speak truth and find
the power to heal and transform. I'm Mike Dela Rocha.
Welcome to Sacred Lessons. Some of the first lessons we
(00:23):
learn about who we are don't come from within, They
come from how the world sees us. Welcome to Sacred Lessons.
I'm Mike Dela Rocha. In this special episode, we're going
to explore how the world defines us based on how
we look, where we come from, how closely we match
the dominant idea of what a man should or should
(00:45):
not be, And today's conversation asks what happens when you
refuse to live inside those expectations. My guest today is
award winning actor Tona Tiu, whose work on screen and
in life challenges the rigid boundaries of gender identity and expression.
(01:06):
From his powerful performance and Kiss of the Spider Woman
to his roles in Vida and Promised Land, his work
invites us to question not just what we see, but
why we see it the way we do. And today
we're going to talk about perception, masculinity, and what it
means to be full of yourself in a world that
(01:28):
constantly tries to define you. I want to give shout
outs to Monica and Raisado because they brought us together.
And I remember when I got invited. I was like, oh, yeah,
well who would I be in conversation with? And then
mentioned your name and I was like immediately yes, please,
(01:49):
oh really yes, because I had been following you online,
but also because my favorite time of that whole experience
was when you and I first actually physically met and
we had dinner and we had that burger to Stue Burger's,
and in real time, you were you were you. I'm
(02:10):
never shared this, but you were modeling to me how
much of our identity is performance. And I don't know
if you remember this, but you were like, hey, Mike,
I could show up masculine, and then you switched over,
I can be feminine, and and it wasn't about the binaries.
You were just trying to model the reality. But to
me it was it clicked so hard because I was like, oh, wow,
(02:32):
you know what I'm saying Like it was like I'm crazy. No, no, no, no, no,
it was. It was beautiful because I, uh, it just clicked.
There was no textbook. It was just like, oh wow,
Like I was reflecting on myself, like and how much
do I perform and what spaces do I perform in?
And then we had the conversation with Antonio and that
(02:52):
was beautiful and I just wanted more of that. So
more than anything, I want to thank you for your work.
I have no power in Hollywood, but I will say
if I did, you would have been nominated for every
award for Kiss of the Spider Man's very sweet thank you.
You know you got these blockbuster names, but by far,
(03:13):
and I'm not saying this because we know each other,
by far, you were the star of that movie. So
I thank you for your artistry. I thank you for
your life's work. I thank you for expanding my personal
views of myself in the world. So just thank you
for being here. It means a lot.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
I really appreciate that. And I yeah, I remember Monica
asking me to moderate that conversation and I said yes,
just because the subject matter was just so great, and
picked up your book and my first instinct is I
need to meet you guys, like I don't want to
moderate something without knowing each other's energies or like you
(03:50):
know what we're about and so, and it was just
such a warm and inviting fun space. You literally walk
around like an open heart and meditated by a creek
and found a feather which your gifted me, which was
so sweet, which I still have. So, yeah, brother, what's
going on?
Speaker 1 (04:07):
Yeah? Well I wanted to jump in. You know, obviously,
this this issue of identity is one that's always been
in fluid, but right now we're living in a time
when things are starting to the forces that be the
structures that we wanted to be very rigid, very binary.
And my first question I was like, do you remember
(04:28):
the moment early on when you first understood about your
identity and about gender and stuff like that.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
Well, I don't know. As a kid, I was always
like effeminate. I loved like Sparkles and Barbies and my
little ponies, and I think like when I was five,
I asked for a Barbie's dream House and you know,
and I think like my parents were just super just
be who you are kind of vibe. But I think
(04:57):
that there was a world where who I was didn't
fit people's understandings or schemas as to like what a
boy should be and so mean naturally, like bullying becomes
a part of it. And then in high school I
just started learning. I started taking acting classes, and I
was like, oh, I can be whatever I want to be.
And so then it became kind of a like a
(05:19):
sport for me, where it was just like, oh, how
many different friend groups can I infiltrate and like transform
myself and learn what they wear and their jokes. And
then it became this like because I've always like loved
people and I have a very like non judgmental spirit,
and so it'd be turned into one of those things
where I was like, Okay, well, how many people like
(05:41):
it became a hunger for their like experience, if that
makes sense. But then I started doing it professionally and
I was just like, oh, well, now, like what does
it look like with a bigger budget, and what does
it look like with this and with that. But on
an interpersonal level, I think that like the expectations of
(06:02):
masculinity had always been pushed upon me, and I performed
it to the best of my ability in high school
and college. But then I went to the complete opposite
where I was like well, I don't want to perform that,
and I want to be expressive in gender queer and
use day like head ay pronouns and and so I
(06:22):
did that and I booked to be that, like that's
what that energy called ford that project. And then I
had a manager who told me, well, the reason you're
not booking the jobs that you want is because you
don't look like the guys who are booking it. So
like it's not you don't have the talent, it's just
you're not that. And so again I love a challenge,
and so then I was like, well, then I will
be that, and I did, and then I booked Promised
(06:44):
Land and carry on right, And so it was just
interesting because like I didn't have I'm not feeling like
sensitive about my form. I'm selling a product, right, and
who I am in my personal life is irrelevant and
so with cause. So the Spider Woman, it was one
of those things where I was like I was asked
(07:04):
to be the totality of everything that I had experienced
over the last you know, ten twelve years in this
industry and the many different energies and characters that I
had played before, and so it was really fun to
be able to play essentially the spectrum in two hours.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
Well let me so you're you. You your manager says, hey,
you need to almost like personify X whatever that X
was definition of I'm assuming a man in this situation.
So then you do it and then you book yep.
And what did this, I don't want to say, remind
you or what does this teaching about masculinity and power
(07:43):
in that situation?
Speaker 2 (07:45):
Well, I think you know, if I was a lesser
healed version of myself, I would have taken that very
personally right. I would have It would have destroyed me
because essentially what someone is subconsciously saying is well, you're
not it right. Who you are is preventing you from
getting the thing that you want, which is devastating to hear,
especially if you're an artist. And you know, call me
(08:07):
the Mexican mystique, but like I want to be known
for transforming into and looking different and you know, and
to use my vessel to tell as many different stories
as I can. And so but I was an older,
more mature version of myself, and I was more healed,
and so I was just like, well would an architect
(08:29):
get upset if somebody said they didn't like arches in
the design. No, they just changed the design. Right, I'm
not selling. They're not asking me to change my way
of being in the world. They're asking me to change
my way in the market. Right, what's being sold in
the market. And so with that cognitive switch, then it
just became like, Okay, I'll lower my voice, I'll grow
(08:53):
some facial hair, and I'll gain twenty pounds muscle and
the new book, the new book.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
So with kius a Spider Woman, was was that one
of the first role that you felt that you didn't
have to do that? Would you just subscribed?
Speaker 2 (09:05):
I had to do all of it right now, to
do all of it actually with because of the Spider Woman.
When I first auditioned for it, I obviously saw the
construction of the story and Molina is this in my
interpretation gender queer individual, right? And I wanted to portray
them as non binary or well I use the word
gender queer as opposed to non binary for them specifically.
(09:31):
So I was like, okay, well, how do I take
this body that I'm in and still translate that for
the audition tape? Right? But then once I got it,
then it became of okay, I were shooting the musical first,
which means I get to be Kendalled Nesbit first, and
Kendall is a nineteen forties classic American man in like
(09:53):
a Broadway musical or not Broaday musical, in a musical film,
and so I was like, okay, we need to classic
Hollywood micro mannerisms. I like, I was doing facial exercises
to like have those things be expressed, and I lost.
I think at that point I went from one ninety
to one sixty in about thirty days. And then we
(10:16):
shot that, and then I fasted to get down to
one forty three for Molina so that they could have
that full, you know, gaunt, non binary esqueness. And I
knew I could achieve that look because that's what I
looked like when I was in high school, you know,
and so last year, last year, so you know, so
(10:39):
I was just like I just happed into that and
and it was fun because like there were moments where
I was like, oh, okay, I get to bring in this
gene Kelly esque energy, and then I get to bring
in my effeminate energy elsewhere, and then I get to
play this Hollywood starlet at the very end, and so
it was just it really required me to just be
everything that I had always been, you.
Speaker 1 (10:59):
Know, and then taking from the professional space and world
where you're acting, you're paid to act, and you're showing
these different characters in this film, then when you go
back into out of care.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
The world, Yeah, and you're one, you're.
Speaker 1 (11:15):
Forty to fifty pounds less. How did the world treat
you that way than when you gained your weight back?
Speaker 2 (11:21):
Well, it's funny. I didn't realize it, like how I
was treated in my early twenties. When I looked my
more gender queer, gender bendy self, I forgot. But that
was like because I've spent more time now presently like
being you know, I weigh like one ninety and.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
Look fit too.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
It was saying, yeah, and my voice is deeper, and
I like, I mean, I still have some like effeminate
things because it's like I love the little jewelry. You
know who doesn't love jewelry? But uh, yeah, it was
It was weird because like, people don't really mess with
me as much as a like in this body in
this form, and it like and if I switch out
(12:02):
the shoes and I go to Timberlands and all of
a sudden, I'm we're in black, and you know, then
I really don't get messed with. But when I lost
to forty pounds and I was walking around, like people
assumed that I was Molina, people like even like the
people who were working on set, their partnering gift for
me was a woman's blouse or uh, and they gave
Diego a knife, and I was like, how come he
(12:23):
gets a cool last night? Can I cuts that on story?
Like how come he gets a fucking knife? And I
get like a woman's blouse. I don't want a woman's blouse,
Like what am I gonna do? Give that to my mom?
You know? And so it was just so funny. I
was like, oh wow, like people don't know, you know.
And and I started dating somebody immediately after shooting because
(12:44):
of the Spider woman, and mind you again, my body's
now like it went from twunk to twink really quickly.
And so I was like it was interesting because like
I was being courted in a way that like I
normally do the courting, and I, you know, I was
enjoying it. It was fun, but it was there was another
(13:04):
moment where I was like, this isn't my normal body,
like I will get back to where I normally am,
and in the course of a year, I've like returned
to to my regular form. But it was funny, it
was really really interesting.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
So what's the I guess the lesson for you on
this as for you, but also for for us or
those listening.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
I mean for me, like this this is all a joke.
Like it's all a joke, right, there's no rules, there's
no like there's inherited identities that you've kind of micro
created over time because you either like hung out in
a social group when you were a kid and then
that like taught you who you were. But I've had
like the very distinct pleasure of just traveling all over
(13:47):
the world and being a part of so many different
groups that like, you know, Huangavia can be playing one
second and then like Slipknot can be playing the next second,
and I'm like, yeah, I got it, you know what
I mean. So it's like it's it's like it's all
a joke. And and I personally like the ability of
you know, dressing silver Lake when I'm in silver Lake
(14:09):
and then dressing differently when I'm you know what I mean,
Like I like the to play with that, and I like, like,
how do you dance? How does a like a masculine
energy dance to an Ariana Grande song? Like what? No?
Like full diva needs to come out, babe? Like the
song is bubble like be bubble like right the way?
Be the energy, you know? And I think, like it's
(14:30):
been interesting dating like that because some people can handle
the totality of that expression and other people whose expression
isn't as dynamic can be either intimidated or turned off
by it. But that's not my problem, that's their. Well.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
I was wondering if if I'm a young person that
feels a lot of pressures to conform to rigid definitions
or whatever identity I choose, Sure, what advice would you
give that person?
Speaker 2 (14:57):
The choosing always changes. M hm, that's the advice. It's like,
I think that the only thing that are static in
nature are inanimate objects and dead things.
Speaker 1 (15:10):
And even that people actually say that they're moving because
of the molecules in correct.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
Right. So there's just one of those things where I'm like, yeah,
today you're going to choose to be this vibe and energy,
and then tomorrow you may choose to be a different
vibe and energy and then in ten years you're going
to choose to be a different vibe and energy. And
I think that like focus more on your values and
your character than you do your appearance, and like have
fun with everything else like that the rest of it
(15:35):
doesn't really matter. Like I'd rather you be a person
of integrity and kindness than like mask or fem or whatever.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
Right right, you know, Yeah, we had an interview with
Anatub's you know, this book American Erased What American patriarchy
has hidden from us, And in that book, she argues
that exactly what we're talking about is why this system
was built on such rad binaries, because they wanted to
keep control sure, and they knew that the definition of
(16:06):
freedom is literally what you just said, you being able
to choose moment by moment how you want to be
seen or how you want to show up in the world.
And right now, structurally, culturally, folks are trying to just
nicely fits you into a box. And this illusion that
if you want to be successful, or if you want
(16:26):
to be rich and famous, whatever, you got to follow
this identity.
Speaker 2 (16:31):
But like no one's like who are the people that
we admire Culturally, right now, Like FKA Twigs isn't in
any kind of binary, Like bad Bunny isn't straddling any
level of binary, Like he's explored many different assets. And
I do think like there's a significant difference between polish
and unpolished, right right, Like I definitely think that there's
(16:56):
different visions and energies, Like if you look at my
red carpets the years, like I definitely have learned how
to present in a more polished way, not always, but sometimes,
you know, And I think that that's that's the mastery
of more of like who you are and what you're expressing.
But I don't know. I think that you're the especially
(17:16):
with like AI and everything, like there's you're as unique
as your own fingerprint, and so like if you're trying
to model something that's outside of you, you're gonna be miserable,
right right, Like, I think that that the fun part
is that you're you. You're just this like hodgepodge of
all these different things that you've experienced.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
I was going to ask you what, in your opinion,
what would be a healthier expansive version of masculinity. But
it's almost like expansive definition of personhood or human being.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
Right. Well, I've asked myself this question a lot, where
I was like, I like to think critically about things
like what is the what is the feeling that you
get when you hear my name? Or like what is
the definition of you? Not like the Aztecs sun god,
but me the person? Right? And then I start thinking
critically like well, who am I as a husband? Who
(18:11):
am I as a coworker? Who am I as a leader?
You know whatever? And so I look for adjectives or
I look for definitions in those things. But as I do,
I'm like, well, how is that any different? Like why
does that live in a binary between masculine and feminine?
(18:32):
You know? I think like ultimately, it's just looking for
like good characteristics of people, right, And I do think
like my natural essence is a little bit more Yang,
Like I have more Yang energy than I do yin
meaning like if I see it, I want to go
get it, you know, which I could benefit from some
(18:54):
temperance or patience. Sorry team, but shout out to all
my exes. No, but I think that like I don't know,
Like I don't I think that all the things that
make a man a man is the same things that
make a good person a good person.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
You know, in this conversation, it would almost seem if
I'm teasing it out that in this moment, I may
be choosing to be a version that's traditionally seen as
a man. Yeah, And then I can go out that
door and be choosing to be traditionally what a woman
for sure look like, and it's still the same person,
(19:33):
but I'm choosing to express myself in a different way.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
Oh, you're playing pretend like I do it as kids
all the time, Like it's used to be a cute,
sparkly dressed and you're like, oh, I won't try that on.
It's like wow, And then maybe you tried it on
and it was fun to put on just for a
second because you wanted to see what it looked like.
And you may not buy it, but like I don't think,
why rob yourself of the joy of the play of it?
All right? Like I really I've been finding it really
(19:59):
endearing that a lot of uh millennial fathers are painting
their toes and their nails with their kids. And I
always say that, like I feel like I was born
too early because this younger generation of like gen Z
people they are living their full fan fantasy or they're
living their gender queer fantasy, and I'm just too tired
(20:23):
to do that now, you know, Like I don't want
my lung clasticking out. I don't think that's fucking sexy
at all. But like I think it would have been
like if me and my twenties was like here now,
I'd be having the best time. But you know it's
like you do what do you want?
Speaker 1 (20:39):
You know, well guess and that which I agree with you.
Then this, then, my hope, really does let it in
and allowing this current generation not to be tainted, you
know what I'm saying, like just pour in, yes, yes,
and yes.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
But it's also my opic, like what like oh my god,
why are there? Why are there all these rules? Like
who are making up these rules? It's all made up.
We're all gonna die, Like relax, like have some fun.
Are you having fun? Or you don't think you're having fun?
You know, like I used to have. I fostered this
dog maybe ten years ago, beautiful pitbull. Oh my gosh,
it was so beautiful. And I named the dog Solia
(21:23):
and it's a word that my friend made up. And
it was like my nickname for her or her nickname
for me. It's like child of the Sun or whatever. Anyway,
the dog had a penis, but I put a pink
harness on the dog, and the dog had like very
(21:44):
feminine energy. It was very docile and very sweet and
you know, a little scared because it was living on
the streets for some time and so it's real personality
didn't really come out until like maybe two years later,
and then all of a sudden that was a dude.
But I use all pronouns with the dog, and people
on walking down the street would automatically see the pink
(22:04):
collar and say, oh my god, she's so beautiful. Can
I pet her? And then she would see like they
would see her penis and be like, oh my god,
I am so sorry. I am like key, and I
was like, the dog doesn't care. The dog doesn't speak English.
And they were like, well, you're going to traumatize the dog,
and I was like, no, I think you're traumatized, Like
just don't hit the dog, and the dog's happy, Like
(22:26):
the dog's fine. You're the one who's really dripping over
this like pronoun thing. But it was like a perfect
example where I was like, wow, you guys are really
stuck on these things. And I'm like, for what are
you gonna find the dog that's crazy like chill.
Speaker 1 (22:41):
That's true, that's a beautiful now, gee, because you're bringing
up projection. You're bringing up.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
The dog doesn't have a problem.
Speaker 1 (22:49):
The dog was chilling, the dog was whatever.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
But the dog does walk and treat.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
But the dog is also the metaphor for all of us,
you know what I'm saying, Like that dog could have
been you and and or me, and someone could have
came and projected like, oh, you're supposed to be showing
up like X, Y and Z because of how you're
shown right now. But again, that's not how I'm choosing.
That's how you're projecting how I should act, how should
I be in the world, you know, Yeah, And then
(23:15):
you know, so much of what I'm what I'm thinking
doing it through is like there's there's this interpersonal conversation
we're having, and then there's the macro And in the
macro level, there's definitely rigid there's laws, there's policies, there's
structures that are like forcing people to choose and and
(23:36):
and then and if you don't choose, there's consequences, you know,
and harmful ones. And that's where like for me, the
tensions always like uh, doing the and the both, like
fighting oppressive laws that are forcing people to have to
be like you're this, or you're that, or you can't
get access to this kind of surgery or whatever. That
(23:56):
is well at the same time, just being comfortable with
whoever I am in this space to acknowledge and to accept, like, yo,
this is this is freedom, this is joy, this is
liberations I love. And the more that I'm sitting in
this moment with you, I'm realizing recognizing that the folks
in my life that are the most happy, the most
(24:19):
joyful are the gender fluid, the non binary folks, and
they're the ones that teach me to be more fearless
because you know, in this society we associate strength with
dominance and control and power, but that, to me is
the real, definite strength to be who you are, unapologetically
(24:40):
despite what the laws of the world they want to
do to you.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
Well, here's this, Like, imagine a tree that is in
the midst of a hurricane. The stiffest tree with the
most rigid roots is the first to collapse. But the
tree that's able to withstand and go with the wind
in any which direction, is able to survive. And I
think that, like I think that rigidity comes from a
(25:06):
sense of fear right, like there's a well I don't
understand it or what is that? Or why would anybody
do that? You know? And I think that because it's fun.
I don't know, like what do you mean? Why what
would you do that? Like I got to play pretend
for a living, Like I get to absorb a character
and play it and enjoy it and the discover who
(25:30):
they are. I get to work with people who love
costumes and understand a history of it, and they bring
me options of a person that I don't even like.
I would never pick those clothes for me, And then
I put them on and I'm like, oh wow, actually
I've learned that this style suits me or I like
(25:51):
me in this energy. Like when I went to New
York for the first time, everybody was rocking like Timberland's.
I was like, baby, like, give me a get me
a sweet pair of Timberland and like I want that,
Like they were fine, they were fire like, and so
I just think that you're just have a nice time.
And I also think with like when it comes to
dominant cultures, it makes me wonder. I'm like, Okay, in
(26:13):
this culture, this is illegal or this is not appropriate
or accepted, but that doesn't mean that it's inherently wrong.
Like and what does nature have to say about that? Right,
Like intersects people exist in nature, Like even in an
animal kingdom, there are species that naturally change their gender
(26:36):
depending on the amount of male or female people available,
or like around them, yeah, around them, or like if
you look at indigenous culture to too, spirit people exist,
Musha people exist, and so it's just like, well, yeah, okay,
in America, you're saying that this doesn't exist because you're
(27:00):
in a position of power and you don't know the world.
But I mean the rest of the world is like
vibing with it, and nobody else seems to have a
problem with it. Yeah, you know.
Speaker 1 (27:09):
I also love the way that you reframe. When I
asked that question early on, I'm like, well, who who's
really helping me to define global culture right now? And
they are not subscribing to a role. They're they're they're
subscribing to all kinds of roles, and they're expansive and
they're showing it in and feeling proud of it. And
that's also why I think that they are where they
(27:30):
are right Like there's a there's a reason why there's
uniqueness in that uniqueness. But even like thinking about right
now in real time, Bad Bunny headlines to Super Bowl
arguably the most American day of the year in all Spanish. Yeah,
and even folks that don't know Spanish are seeing what
the joy, the happiness, the love, and he is basically like, yeah,
(27:54):
this is available to all of us, you know, saying
and what is the secret?
Speaker 2 (27:59):
Be you? There's there's this was it Jane Elliott? I
don't remember who it was. It might have been Jane Elliott,
because like there's this whole idea of you know, we're
a melting pot, and I don't want to be a
melting pot. I want to be a salad. A salad
has walnuts and lettuce and you know, the chicken, you
(28:22):
know whatever, like quemoa, and it can have like all
kinds of things. None of them are trying to be
what the other thing is, and you need all of
them to be what they are in order to create
a burst of delicious flavor. But if you blend a
salad altogether. It doesn't taste good, and it doesn't taste
the same. It has just like a you know what
I mean? So I think like there's a I need
you to be who you are fully, I need you
(28:45):
to express yourself fully. I need you to be honest
about what your fingerprint is saying, because then I can
respond or I can learn from it, like the diversity
of that helps us survive. Like and so many of
the ideas that I currently embody, or at least them
(29:07):
in the praxis of embodying, didn't originate for me. They
originated from people who that's their natural vibe and they
were able to teach me something that was a blind
spot for me, or a well that's not a good
word anymore shortcoming, you know, Like I have a friend
(29:28):
who's radically poly, radically poly, like he believes in there's
a galitarian poly memory and then he believes in what
is the word radical?
Speaker 1 (29:48):
I get lost, man, what I just met? No, And
the poly sl stuff is so foreign and new to
me that all these you know, there's all these sub
categories like you're saying and other things around all that.
Speaker 2 (30:00):
Sure, So in short, there are some people who practice
Polly and saying like you're my partner and everybody else
doesn't matter, and like they're just our playthings and whatever whatever.
But then there are other people who are like, well,
that's not particularly fair because those are humans with real
experiences that we should like also honor and be respectful
to and you know whatever. But his his lived experience
was friendship as a way of life, and so he's egalitarian.
(30:25):
Ever he believes that, like everybody's equal, and you could
be my partner that I live with, but I'm not
going to treat you specifically any different than like a
paramore or a person that I slept with. Like everyone's
going to get the best version of me. Everyone's going
to get the kindness, the trust, the honesty of me.
And you know, I think that was a challenge for
(30:47):
me as a human, and that idea didn't come It
comes to me naturally in theory, but in practice it's like,
oh my god, like scarcity comes up, or fear comes up,
or abandonment comes up, or primal panic comes up right,
and then all of a sudden, like these concepts create
(31:09):
a sense of fear of like a wounded child or
what and like you know what I mean, And so
then I I sad and think about it. I was like, well,
but why, Like I acknowledge that this is coming up
for me, that's fine, I'm not trying to gaslight myself
that it's not. But like, what can I learn from
(31:30):
someone who's living an experience that's so radically different from
me and he's not requesting that I participate in that?
But can I have grace for someone who wants to
enter my world and I'm trying to live a more
like heteronormative society like you know view, but they're not.
(31:50):
Why then do I implement my judgment or kink, shame
or you know whatever to this other person who's not
causing any harm. It just doesn't align, you know. And
so then then I'm like, oh, okay, well then how
can I then temper my own biases to allow you
(32:10):
to be the bird that you're meant to be? And
how can I make a safe enough space for you
to share your authentic self with me and then me
to say, wow, that's amazing. No, I don't want that
for me, but this is who my authentic self is
and this is where we can meet in the middle,
or this is how I can still support you and
all of that.
Speaker 1 (32:28):
I think the beautiful thing about that interaction that you
just shared was that there wasn't there wasn't a judgment.
There was a questioning curiosity of like why do I
feel this way? What is the bias? But I know
that this relationship matters to me, So I'm going to
talk about it and be like, hey, that may be
(32:49):
for you, but it is not for me. But where
is that middle?
Speaker 2 (32:52):
Yeah? Like why you know, I always find it curious
when like people break up and there's like a lot
of activity and you know, and I can understand, like
feelings can get hurt and you know that lives with people,
but I never really understood like unless someone did something
completely egregious. I'm just like, well, we broke up because
(33:13):
there was a misalignment, or we broke up because like
trust got eroded or or something like that. But I
still love you, I still care for you. I still
am excited about your energy. I still have like joy
for your success. Like I'm like, you know what I mean,
unless I'm like, you know, murder my mom or something like,
(33:35):
And even then I think I would be like, wow,
you must you're so hurt, Like I think you need help, right,
But it just makes me sad because I'm like, there
is a there's a world outside of us where like
why do we have to unlove one another for the
lived experiences that like we don't want for ourselves but
(33:57):
they do for themselves right right?
Speaker 1 (33:59):
Well, when I hear you talk, there is also the
role of community and relationship. It sounds like in your
life you have like a close knit group.
Speaker 2 (34:14):
Or not.
Speaker 1 (34:15):
Because my question is this so much of like the
healing journey or the running home back to yourself? I
like to say it's not an isolated journey, you know,
like I'm able to do this because of conversations like
this or because I have a group around me and mentors, partners,
what have you that want me to be the highest
(34:37):
version of myself. Yeah, and so I'm very clear that
healing happens in community at least that's like how I
view it. But I wonder in your life experiences what
role community has played or hasn't played.
Speaker 2 (34:51):
You know. I think right now I'm in an interesting
pivot point in my life, like so much has changed
in a short amount of time, and even in my
again theory versus praxis right, Like, I'm still becoming and
(35:11):
I still bump against my own wound itself, and I
isolate when I'm in this place of hurting, and I create,
but I create in a self container because of the
shame of allowing people to see me in agony. But
(35:32):
the irony is that it's in that vulnerability that my
community can do what they're supposed to, which is be there.
And like I the person hate vulnerability. I hate it.
(35:55):
I hate it. It's so horrible, it feels awful. It
feels horrible me. The artists love it because that's my weapon. Like, right,
I get to play with my feelings and my emotions,
et cetera. But I do think that, like I, money
can come and go, your career can change a thousand times.
(36:18):
But like, why are we actually here if not to
just enjoy each other while we are here, you know.
And in the last two or three months, like I've
kind of retreated and I've been stepping back into myself.
But I've been trying to be more conscious of like, Okay,
in my thirties, now in my mid thirties, who am
(36:41):
I now? You know? Consciously and I don't know, I'm
in this sense of wonder, But then there are just
some things where I'm like, yes, I may be changing
in certain regards, but a koyfish when they were small
and now has grown, some of those spots not changed.
They're just stretched right, Like I will always be the overthinking, sensitive,
(37:05):
like like person, But then I'm also the ratchet bitch
down the street who's cracking jokes like I will always
be both of those things. That's so, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (37:16):
I don't know if this is correct, but I was
rereading these books right here, and I think they said
the Greek root of the word trauma is wound. Okay,
And you brought up that some things are triggering old wounds,
which is where you're like, oh, well, I started to
retreat back because I'm still becoming what what was what
(37:41):
was triggering about that? Was it because you were becoming
something that you're on, like the uncertainty of it? Was
it bringing up something that something from the past?
Speaker 2 (37:50):
Is it?
Speaker 1 (37:51):
All of it? M?
Speaker 2 (38:07):
I guess I don't enjoy being known on a mass level.
That's why I have many faces on the wall that
I can choose from. M.
Speaker 1 (38:29):
You don't want the world to know the sacred version
of yourself that.
Speaker 2 (38:33):
I don't even know if it's the sacred version of myself.
I well, actually you know now that let me think
about that. Yeah, I think it's the most vulnerable part
of me. And so to be known is the most
(38:56):
beautiful and terrifying thing that can never happen to me.
And then to be known like, of course, I love
what I do, and I love my work, and I
really take pride in doing as good a job as
I can. Right, I don't want you to know me.
I want you to know my work, you know, like
look over there. But all of a sudden, like I'm
(39:21):
talking to people all over the world and I go
to dinners and people stop me. Or I like my
anonymity and it was taken from me, and that became
dangerous because then either they will like me or dislike me.
For the facade, I will be an enigma like a Beyonce, right,
(39:45):
Like she's an enigma, Like you know when he deeply
knows Beyonce, they just know her energy. Beyonce would love
to deeply get to know you. Or I can be authentic,
and then in that authenticity that comes the risk. And again,
like I said, I love being vulnerable on screen I
don't love being vulnerable in life. That sounds horrible, and
so I think that's where the fear really came from.
(40:09):
And also, like, what if they don't like me for
being authentically myself? This is why I don't do it.
This is why I don't do it. This is why
I don't show the real you create, put a put
a shadow puppet on it. You know, that's far more interesting.
They are going to like that, you know. So yeah,
(40:32):
that's what that's where the wound kind of came up.
And but I don't know, I don't know what the
answer to that is. Yeah, because right now I'm being authentic.
Speaker 1 (40:43):
I'm just yeah, you're just sharing. I deeply, deeply, deeply
resonate with this because you know, social media is so
much of a facadic because you choose a little what
you're gonna put out there, and then if you start
to get a little well known from film or whatever,
you can start to getting notoriety, at least for me.
(41:05):
And now I'm just I might be projecting right now,
so you know, full transparency. But like then, I've been
sitting with this tension too that if I'm wanting men
to be vulnerable, then I have to show it. I
got to model it, and it's hard to do that
on a on a public level because then the little
(41:26):
child in me is going to be a lot of
people that don't like that. And then then I start
to get hurt. That's my right exactly, because then I'm like, dude,
I'm just being me and and all the projection, all
the hate comes. But it's like, that's what makes That's
what I struggle. That's what I'm trying not to retreat to,
is that point, because then I'm no longer me, right,
(41:49):
and then I become the.
Speaker 2 (41:51):
Facade, right. But that's I think that that, to me
is the catch twenty two. Yeah, where I'm like, you
couldn't to me harder then for me to show you
all of who I am and for you to leave.
Speaker 1 (42:08):
Exactly.
Speaker 2 (42:11):
And I can understand a world where you know, if
an action I took was painful to you, then, but
then that's negotiated, talked about, repaired, right. But to lose
someone or to be disliked for authentically existing is scary
(42:35):
because of the rejunction level, and it triggers these abandonment things,
and a part of me is like, well, let me
entertain you let me make you smile. You know, you
treat me real good. If if I'm real good, I'll
treat you real good something like that. I'm very versatile,
(42:55):
but it is one of those things where I'm like, well,
I know how to give you the thing that you want.
I'll just tell me the role and I'll play the character.
But then like I'm like, well, but then you're miserable, right,
I don't want to play the character right, like to
say yeah that hurt or I love that, I love you.
You know that's scary.
Speaker 1 (43:16):
Yeah, you just I'm like, a, this is like a
becoming a I won't to speak for you, speak for me.
It's become like my therapy session right now, because you're right,
like my my fear of being abandoned for being my
own self is bringing up what happened when I was
a child, Yes, and which is why I gravitated to
(43:36):
all those that were always like jender fluid or punk
rocks or outcasts or whatever it was, because they would
embrace me from.
Speaker 2 (43:44):
There are the others.
Speaker 1 (43:45):
The others find the others correct.
Speaker 2 (43:47):
Because they have this. I think they share the same
abandonment fear, you know, or like there's a there's this
idea of like because I was a kid, like there
was a moment in my life where I was like,
oh yeah, I don't want to even be a part
of your club. I'm gonna I'm there. I'm crazy, I'm
the witch, You're the world. You know what I mean.
(44:07):
That's a quote from Sondheim. And I think that's why,
like a lot of queer people love witches and they
love the villains and they love like these big, extraordinary
characters because they feel like they've been rejected and they're
looking for someone to like say, well, I don't care
if you reject me. Rejecting a million times, it doesn't
hurt me, right it does, but it does, of course
it does. We're social creatures, we're pack creatures. Like it's awful.
(44:33):
It's awful. And I think, like my newest play where
is like, well, how do I not abandon myself in
those instances? Because like, how do I hold both I
respect your autonomy and I respect your decision to stay, go, participate,
not participate, take a step forward, take a step back
from my life and not crumble, and also just say
(44:55):
like I do have utility and worth and I don't
need you to choose me in order to have that,
and I can still love you despite or I can
love you through the choices that you make for yourself.
I'm not great at it, but I'm great at different business.
(45:18):
Like you know, if I audition and the job goes
to someone else, like, I'm like, oh great, you know, muzzle,
can't wait to see what they do. But in like life,
like if to lose a friend or to lose a
lover to laugh, like, wow, that's a lot.
Speaker 1 (45:32):
Is you know, just is there where you are now
in your becoming and in your age. What would you
tell the younger version of you?
Speaker 2 (45:46):
Oh, I would say, you're just so deeply lovable. I
would I would just hold him. I would hold him
so much, and just like play, pretend and tell stories
in the bath. And I would beat someone's ass if
they even fucking came for him whatsoever, Because like I
(46:10):
think I'm gonna cry. I think the world teaches you
to hate yourself. And I spent so many years self
flagellating and contorting myself to please or to ask someone
to stay. And I remember two years ago, after I
(46:31):
finished Kiss of the Spider Woman, I was like, I
made a commitment to God, which you should never break
a commitment to God because it will mess you up.
But I did. I remember when I auditioned for it,
I like lit a candle and I prayed and I said,
you know, I think I spiritually this feels like an alignment.
And if I get this, I refuse to allow myself
(46:54):
to be just regulated by anybody. I refuse to not
give this one hundred and ten percent of all of me.
And I dedicate this to all of the avatar generations
of me that have you know, risen and fallen and
turned me into the artists of the person that I
am today to bring forth this thing that I'm being
(47:16):
called upon to do. And I know, like this is
so much mumbo jumbo actor bullshit, but that's how I
take my work. That's my work, Like this is this
is my calling, and there's healing in this story and
I've witnessed it, like I've witnessed people who've also felt
(47:36):
this pain, in this agony and whatever and come to
me and they were like, wow, I felt seen in
this moment, and so but yeah, I think now I'm
like that was awesome and I'm glad I did it.
That wasn't my life. That was a job. And so
now I'm looking like to my left and to my right,
(47:58):
and I'm like, oh shit, I forgot to create here,
So now I got to create again. And that's kind
of the fun part.
Speaker 1 (48:06):
I don't know, Well, thank you for your vulnerability. I
was getting emotional because when I asked you what you
would tell your young self, you pretty much said what
I need to tell my young self, you know. And
that's where I think our relationship and our relationships with others.
(48:28):
I think if we could do that in all stages
of life, then that's what God or create or spirit
would want, because everything around us wants us to forget
that and we just want to be We all want
to belong, we all want to connect, we all just
want to be loved, because at the end of the day,
that's what we are. We're personifications of love, you know,
(48:49):
And so thank you for sharing that.
Speaker 2 (48:52):
Yeah, of course, and I'm I'm happy to love on
your inner child, and you know what I mean, like
an equally protect that motherfucker from them. You know, I'll
throw hands, But it just it is funny, like I
think that is like ultimately what we're about is just
being love and action as much as you can and
(49:15):
have fun. Yeah, to collect shot, we're.
Speaker 1 (49:17):
Gonna die before this last section. Is there anything on
your heart that you want to share? Anything else that's
coming up?
Speaker 2 (49:24):
Mm hmmm, mm hmmm. I think for people it's very
(49:44):
easy with social media and with TV et cetera, especially
if you're chasing a career in this industry too. Forget
the human aspect of it outside of the product, right,
because like there's a product that need to be made,
but that's not that's not worth the love that you
(50:11):
share with another person. And I think like having grace
for yourself and having grace for other people's humanness is
really good. I'm really good at giving other people grace.
I'm not so good at giving to myself. So if
you're hearing this and it resonates with you, I think,
just go and tell somebody you love them, because you
(50:32):
don't know when you're gonna lose them. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (50:41):
Well this is the last part. Uh oh, it's called
the Sacred Five. It's five rapid fire questions. I ask
you a question, you answer in a word or sentence,
and it's our way to give practical advice to those listening.
Or watching question one boom, name three things that make
(51:03):
you feel safe, connected and whole.
Speaker 2 (51:05):
Ooh uh. Weighted blankets, um goes back to the waning
to be Hell, I do, I love it? Oh my god,
squish me. It's like put me back into my body. Honestly, Incense,
I really love incense, Goba like any kind of incent
and I love the smell of that, and baths like
(51:27):
I'm a very tacticle sensory person. That brings me back
to myself.
Speaker 1 (51:31):
Cool, weighted blankets, copa stage plant, incense and what was
last love?
Speaker 2 (51:40):
Good back?
Speaker 1 (51:42):
What song book or prayer brings you back home to yourself?
Speaker 2 (51:46):
In my mind? By Amanda Palmer. Uh. In my mind,
I imagine so many things, things that aren't really happening.
And when they put me in the ground, I start
pounding the lid, saying I haven't finished yet. I still
have a tattoo to get that says I'm living in
the moment.
Speaker 1 (52:01):
Beautiful. What's one daily ritual or practice that grounds.
Speaker 2 (52:07):
You It's not appropriate for this channel. Yeah sex now,
uh a daily ritual? Honestly, Walking in the sun. Yeah,
walking in the sun. I need like my current apartment,
which I'm moving it is so dark, and I get
so sad in dark spaces, like I need the sunlight
(52:27):
to like write me up. I was laughing.
Speaker 1 (52:31):
I was laughing because that last question Curly was on
the show.
Speaker 2 (52:35):
Oh yeah, and he goes.
Speaker 1 (52:37):
He literally verbat him and said, I can't say it
for this show.
Speaker 2 (52:41):
Say no.
Speaker 1 (52:42):
It's like saying yes the truth of course. Yeah, I'm masturbad.
And then I say the rosary.
Speaker 2 (52:49):
And I was like, well, not in that order, and
I was like, listen, sex magic, it is all right.
Speaker 1 (52:55):
What's one small action that listeners can take on their
healing journey.
Speaker 2 (53:00):
Oh, we actually were connecting over it just before we started.
Is a very simple incantation. It's I am blank. You
gotta fill in the blank, but you got to be
very careful. It's the most powerful spell you can ever cast.
There's no more powerful spell. I dare you to find one.
I can't. I disagree. And whatever you finish it with
(53:21):
is the thing that you will become. So you have
to be very very diligent. And some spells are harder
to undo than others. So if you say I am stupid,
I am powerless, I'm a monster, I am a narcissist.
I am evil. Those spells are really hard to undo,
and it takes a lot of other incantations like I
am good, I am honest, I'm kind, I am love,
(53:41):
I am becoming, you know, to undo those. But you
have to have to have to be careful. And I
think that the best thing that anyone can do is
to grab a piece of paper. But I am at
the top and define it and live in your commitment,
live in your commitment, because your feelings aren't your commitment,
Your habits aren't your commitment. Your you know, mood is
(54:07):
in your commitment. But if your commitment is to be honest,
if your commitments to be kind and to be love
and to be a good person, then like it will
put you through that and eventually it becomes a habit
that becomes your character and that becomes your life.
Speaker 1 (54:20):
I am I am last one sure one line, blessing
or quote that inspires you.
Speaker 2 (54:30):
Okay, I actually got this from Jennifer Lopez's mom. God's
got me, God's got me, God's got me. She wore
a T shirt that said God's got me. And I
just looked at it, and I'm not particularly religious, and
so I looked at it and I like, my instinct
was like huh, and then I thought of it. I
(54:52):
was like, huh, yeah, yeah, God's got me. If I'm
ever freaking out, God's got me. If I'm about to panic,
God's got me. If I don't know if what's gonna
happen next, where the next job is going to land,
what I'm going to create, if this person's gonna you know,
respond to this email or you know whatever, God's got me.
(55:14):
God's got me. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (55:16):
What do I always wrap up by just sharing some
reflections or just what we talked about, just like mirror,
or just things that are really sticking out first and foremost.
Yet again, I feel like we're having a really big
juicy burger in Aspen, but it's here in Los Angeles,
(55:39):
in Hollywood, because again you are expanding me to embrace
the fullness of life. Yea, and for that I genuinely
thank you. I also just want to in the I
Am statement, I want to remind you of how beautiful, powerful,
(56:01):
expansive you are, and so that the same grace you
give to others that you can give to yourself.
Speaker 2 (56:06):
I will I will receive. I will receive it.
Speaker 1 (56:10):
And the last thing I don't I have more questions
than answers, But I hope that we can hold hands
and hold each other enough to find the ability to
be our authentic selves vulnerable in a public way where
we're not harmed. And I think I know for me,
(56:32):
the answer for me might be I have to really
just have to really do a lot more work on
my inner child that's afraid. But when I'm around you,
I feel hope that I can do that and that
we're we're like you said, we're becoming, We're unfolding, we're expanding.
(56:53):
And you mentioned three powerful words that I just want
to say back to you, which is I love you.
I love you. I hope I hope you know that
like you make all of us better, even those I
don't know you, Like we watch you and we see like, man,
if I could be that person in real life, then
(57:15):
I will be the manifestation, personification the feeling of love
and that only happens because of who you are and
all of these experiences. That's very sweet, no, but it's
just it's the truth. And I just want you to
know that you need help moving apartments, you need you
want me to lock up on someone, like whatever you need,
(57:39):
just we need more thrown thos in the world. And uh,
and I really humbly just thank you for for not
the artistry, yes, but the person more and so thank you.
Speaker 2 (57:52):
I appreciate it. And there's a I'll button it with.
I've always said I'm a professional shape shrift, but an
amateur human because it's true. It's like this may be
my first time on this planet and I'm figuring it
out like the rest of us, you know. Yeah, and
so it makes me really happy to see you in
the work that you do and to continue our conversation.
Speaker 1 (58:14):
Yes, thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (58:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (58:16):
Likewise, all right. Sacred Lessons is a production. My Heart's
Michael through it, a podcast network, Sacred Lessons Media, and
the Prints Group. For more of your favorite shows, visit
the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
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