June 8, 2026 • 45 mins
In this episode of Sacred Lessons, host Mike de la Rocha sits with Anna Malaika Tubbs, New York Times bestselling author of The Three Mothers and Erased for a powerful conversation about patriarchy, masculinity, and the stories that shape our understanding of power and identity. Together, they explore how systems of gender, race, and hierarchy are woven into our culture, how those systems impact men and women alike, and what it takes to unlearn beliefs that no longer serve us. Drawing from history, research, and lived experience, Anna invites us to question what we've been taught and imagine a more honest, connected, and liberated future.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
What are the psycles fathers passed down that son, so
they're left to heal. What if being a man was
about holding it all together but learning how to let go.
This is a space where men speak of truth and
find the power to heal and transform on Mike Dela Rocha,
Welcome to Sacred Lessons. My guest today is Ana Maleka Tubbs,
(00:23):
a New York Times best selling author of The Three Mothers,
and her latest book, Erased What American Patriarchy has hidden
from us In a Race Honor, reminds us that American
patriarchy is both simple and complex, simple in the way
it touches all of our lives and complex and how
it impacts each of us differently depending on how we
(00:45):
are seen and how we identify. And today we're going
to explore what it means to unlearn those systems in
ways that we can imagine and build new systems and
ways of being in relationship with each other. Anna, it's
so great to meet you in the flesh. Well, thank
(01:06):
you for this incredible book, Like you know, you met
my partner and I haven't put it down. I like
had to rush through it and it was highlighting, but
I really loved it because a lot of my understanding
and masculinity, I've gotten no surprise by black women, whether
it was Audrey Lord or about Hooks. Lorianzeo Do was phenomenal.
(01:28):
And then obviously your book and I wrote I wrote
Sacred Lessons because I couldn't find a book from a
Chicano to a Chicano. And as much as uh I
was gaining so much from these other books, I was like,
there's a uniqueness to it. And what I love about
your book is it goes through from the very beginning.
And oftentimes books are about the interpersonal dynamics of patriarchy
(01:52):
and violence, or they're about the structure, and you actually
do both, which is profound. So can we just get
into it around like you sturve from the very beginning,
from when there's always been people on this land, but
when colonizers first came, they came with a particular set
(02:13):
of ideas, and so I wonder if you can just
unpack it from there and then we go on.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
Yeah. Absolutely, Well, thanks so much for having me. I'm
so honored to be in conversation with you. Yeah, let's
start with the race. So I when I talk about
American patriarchy. I'm kind of the first to say American
patriarchy together, and so many people ask me why am
I talking about it on this national level as opposed
to patriarchy all around, And I think it's to your point.
(02:39):
We've talked about it very generally, and I think it's
one of the reasons we haven't really been able to
fully dismantle it because I've seen patriarchy operate across the
world and the places that I've lived, but it is
unique in each of those places. It's unique to the
leaders who chose patriarchy, who wrote it into the documents
(03:00):
of those nations, because patriarchy is not the natural order,
it is not divine. It comes down to men saying
this is what we want for our nations. So when
we're talking about the quote beginning, as you said, we're
not talking about those who already lived here and admirable
claims to this land and the first peoples of this land.
(03:22):
I'm instead talking about the founding fathers of the United States.
And yes, they inherited a patriarchy from the monarchy, but
when they won the Revolutionary War, they had an opportunity
to build something new. And we know that Abigail Adams,
for example, says to her husband, remember, the ladies do
(03:43):
better by us than the monarchy did. She's aware that
they are creating a new nation, and she's saying, these
are ways in which we could improve on what we've inherited.
And the Founding Fathers actually say, no, we are not
going to lean into your feminine way, as they say
that they know better than her feminine ways is the quote,
(04:03):
and they double down on we are building a republic
of men, so when we're having of white men, and
I'm definitely going to get into all those levels of it,
because when we're having these contemporary conversations about patriarchy, it's
very easy for people to be pointing fingers at each other.
But what I want us to do for a moment
is kind of put those fingers down and together say, hey,
(04:25):
let's look at what the Founding Fathers built and what
was going through their minds in seventeen seventy six, two
hundred and fifty years ago. So they signed the Declaration
of Independence, then they win the Revolutionary War. They are
the underdogs. No one's expecting them to win. And in
those ten years after the Revolutionary War and before the
Constitutional Convention, you're seeing the revolutionary spirit continue to spread
(04:49):
across this new nation. So women are asking for more,
people who are enslaved or asking for more. We have
indigenous people asking for more protection, recognition. Poor people are
asking for more. And the Founding Fathers are very fearful
that they're going to lose power in the nation that
they've fought to one, and so they approach the Constitutional
(05:10):
Convention with fear and insecurity. And that is at the
core of what they write into the constitution. How do
we maintain power in our hands so that nobody else
can have access to it? And they define that by
saying that men like them get to vote, men like
them get to own land, men like them get to
(05:30):
represent themselves. Nobody else gets to do that. Then they
say to the women in their lives, so the women
who are attached to them quote in their minds attached
to them that all that they can do is reproduce
the power of men through children. So our nation is
set up with this problematic binary, this gender binary that
(05:51):
erases anybody who is gender non conforming and says, okay,
there is man and the white elite men who the
Founding fathers are and say anybody who's like them will
be acknowledged and the women in their lives. However, that
is not the end of the definition of American patriarchy,
because the Constitution also protects the institution of slavery, meaning
(06:12):
they're not including black people in their definition of man
and women, they're not including immigrants from that point forward,
They're leaving it up to the states to decide if
people who don't own land will even be able to vote,
meaning they're not including poor people in their definition of
man and women. And the list of who they're excluding
(06:33):
goes on and on. So basically, American patriarchy has been
telling us all along that we are fighting for our
right to be gendered in the United States based off
of the Founding Father's definition of gender, and so we've
been tricked into thinking if we can assimilate to these
acknowledged groups, then maybe we'll know what it means to
(06:56):
be treated as a human being here, and then if
we can protect this made up social order, then perhaps
we'll be rewarded someday. So that is the system that
we all find ourselves in and tricked by, whether it
was meant to serve us or not. It's actually hurting
all of us and keeping all of us from accessing
(07:18):
full humanity.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
For someone listening, how do I frame this? When I
went on tour with my book, I was very cognizant
of reaching men that sometimes we're afraid to go and
have conversations with. Yeah, and I couldn't use the word
patriarchy because then immediately they would be.
Speaker 3 (07:37):
Like, done, I'm not listening, very trickering.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
How do you define patriarchy just in layperson's terms?
Speaker 2 (07:44):
Yeah, The reason I always say, that's why I don't
want to attack any contemporary men, you know I'm not.
I mean, we can get into those examples if we
want to, But in this book, I'm much more saying
this wasn't built for you either, This was hurting you too.
And so to say, first, the layer of patriarchy is
to define humanity based off of gender, that you're either
(08:07):
man or women.
Speaker 3 (08:08):
That's the first layer of patriarchy.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
And then to say that women are below men in
that categorization. But then to say, actually, nobody gets to
be fully human in patriarchy. So that's how I define it,
less as men versus women or all men are oppressing women,
(08:31):
and more so as this is a made up hierarchy
that doesn't serve us and in fact is especially hurtful
first to men. And then that's why so much violence
happens towards women, because men have been confined and men
have been told that they can't be who they fully are.
(08:51):
And really approaching the conversation from this isn't helping any
of us, but together we could actually do something about it.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
Yeah, I want to just thank you because in this
political climate it's very hard to find compassion for those
men in power that are upholding those founding father ideals. Yeah,
because they're just the extreme form of it. Yeah. And
then it comes down and it trickles down because then
(09:21):
young folks of all backgrounds are subscribing to this definition.
If they want to be rich or famous or powerful, successful,
then they have to follow this. And that's why I
love how you say. It's what it's hidden from us
is our own divinity, humanity, who we really are.
Speaker 3 (09:43):
But especially but.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
Then in this time when there is being harm done
on multiple levels, the easier thing is to be like
us versus them, and whatever the us and them is.
And you're very cautious and intense being like no, no, No,
this is actually insidious and it's impacting all of us. Yes,
so could you unpack us. What I loved about is
(10:07):
you talked from foundational to structures and laws and Supreme Court,
to media, to social media, even to AI.
Speaker 3 (10:18):
Yeah you really read the book.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
Yeah I did. I had to get to the end
and so but like it's it's what I loved about
you say, it's so everywhere that is normalized just seen
as like a given. Yeah, when these are all binaries
and structures that are creating white sis straight created. Yes,
so I wonder if you can elaborate more on that.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
Yeah, Yeah, I wanted to give this full picture of
it because I didn't see a book that had done that.
And for me, it's always really important in my work
to take things that have become very complicated and that
seem very complicated on purpose, right, so that we can't
do anything about them, to make them very obvious and
(11:01):
very clear and understood by all of us. Whether you know,
it's a PhD who studies computer science, they would be
able to understand my work, or a high school student
would be able to understand my work. So I'm never
speaking necessarily in these terms that I think are layman's terms,
but more so universal language that can help us all
(11:21):
to understand ourselves and each other. So that's why I
wanted to see it really on every layer and presented
in that way so that it becomes so obvious to
us how created, how manufactured it is, because we've been
presented this notion that it is divine and that it
(11:42):
is our only option right and that it is inevitable.
But that's just not the truth. So when something is
made up in order to make it seem inevitable, this
is where consequences come into play, where you have to
punish anybody who's showing you there's another way of living,
or that we can always make other choices. That is
(12:05):
when laws are written to protect this made up social order,
so that anyone who breaks the laws is going to
be made an example. And then we are continuously seeing
it in our day to day lives in twenty twenty six,
because the United States is only two hundred and fifty
years old, we are a relatively young country, so all
(12:28):
of this history is it's not ancient, it's very recent.
If we've not looked at the Constitution from this perspective
of male insecurity being at the center of it, then
we've also not seen how every structure that came out
of it, every institution that came out of it, every
law that came out of it, also had that at
(12:50):
the center, white male insecurity, and we haven't then challenged
it in that way on this national level. But I
always say too that those who were pushed the furthest
from it were able to see it for what it
was from the very beginning. So if we look at
black women as an example, and a lot of my
(13:12):
work is particularly around black motherhood in American history, black
women are the only ones who were told by law
that our children were somebody else's property, that our children
were not children. In fact, they were someone else's property.
But it's never been the case that black women said,
oh well, if the law says so, it must be true. Right.
(13:34):
That is the immediate power that those who have been
cast away from American patriarch here given, is this knowledge
that it is bs, that it is made up, that
someone just wrote a law that doesn't make sense to
us and doesn't serve us, and is not enough for us.
And therefore we've always professed a different way of living,
(13:57):
which is creating a world where we are seen as
human and we're our most precious beings are seen as human,
our children, and how that then helps everybody else to
be seen as human beings as well. And so my
biggest takeaway really from writing this book was helping people
understand that when something's made up, you can always make
(14:19):
up something else. You don't have to wait for this
to shift on a national level. We can do that
in our day to day lives. So that's why I'm
constantly having a conversation between the national and the structural,
as well as the personal and the communal, because it
exists on every level, both the patriarchy we're facing. But
what we can do about it, we can start right away.
Speaker 1 (14:41):
Yeah, I mean that's what I love. Like every chapter
started with your story, or your mother's story, or your
children's story, what have you. But I want to I
want to dive in around this. You saend male insecurity
and so much of this is rooted in fear and
insecure and in a moment when we're living in a
(15:05):
time of changing everything. Societal structures are changing, our definitions
of being a human is changing. With AI, there's a
lack of a lot of men feel lack of control,
which your book is teasing, was that ever controlled to
begin with? But my point is is that when when
we feel like we don't have control anymore, that's when
(15:28):
we start to blame and escapego and harm. And it
comes down to this feeling of insecurity. And so in this,
in this writing of this book, in your work, how
do we address this on an interpersonal I don't know,
trying to get a structure right yet, but like interpersonal,
you're in a relationship with someone who identifies as a
(15:48):
male and you see they get laid off when you
see other things and the insecurities come up, or for
men of color like myself and others, Like, what I
really got from this is like this whole thing has
dehumanized us from the get go. So if your whole
inception is you're seen as othered, then you're always wanting
(16:09):
to be belonged, right, and we're not allowed to be belonged.
So I want to know, like what your thoughts?
Speaker 2 (16:16):
So many layers to that, So many thoughts are coming
to mind for me because the conversation of you know,
like let's say white men who might start to understand
that they also are being dehumanized in the system, right,
Because if you're told in order to be human, you
need to dominate the other people in your life and
you need to dehumanize them, it also hurts you, right,
(16:39):
something dies within you to be able to do horrific things,
or to be able to ignore other people suffering, or
to have to shut down anything that's vulnerable within you.
Speaker 3 (16:51):
Right.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
The examples that I use in the book for those
men that seem to be beneficiaries of the system and
seem to have it all power in the wealth, then
why are they all numbing themselves with drugs? Like why
is Elon Musk, who has all the money in the
world on drugs all the time? Because that isn't enough.
This system has also fooled them, it's also hurt them.
(17:15):
So that's one category of men who I would still
say I have compassion for. You know, I don't forgive
they're violent acts, but I can see what's happening in
terms of the male crisis, and a lot of people
talk about this epidemic of the male crisis. In my opinion,
that is it that they're not being allowed to be
fully human themselves and have had to numb themselves for
(17:36):
so long that even when they reach the peak of
success in this system, they now don't know what to
do with themselves. Then men of color, this is a
different conversation, and it's also why I really want men
of color to be able to let go.
Speaker 3 (17:52):
Of defending patriarchy.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
A lot of men of color, if they see an
interview with me and they see the word patriarchy, as
you referred to before, how triggering it is, they immediately.
Speaker 3 (18:04):
Want to defend it.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
But what's really important for them to understand is they
didn't build this. This wasn't for them from the beginning,
and therefore they shouldn't be protecting it. It also relies
on dehumanizing them, especially men of color, and using them
as a tool for the system to oppress the women
(18:29):
and gender non conforming people in their lives and the
children in their lives. And we're seeing these really horrific
instances of this right now. Right A lot of the femicide,
we've been seeing the killing by men of their ex
wives because they're losing control.
Speaker 3 (18:45):
You know what we're talking about here.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
It's because they were tricked into thinking that to be
a man is to be in control, is to dominate
is to not be able to voice your vulnerable feelings
of fear and sadness. And so when you ask me
about the relationships, and you know how we think about
(19:09):
that and the relationships in our own lives. Of course,
I'm thinking about my sons, especially with all this news
that's been coming up, and of course so many people
are asking me about it because of what I write about.
I think about my baby boys. Of course I think
about my daughter as well, but the conversation around these
are the sweetest little babies, right. And also my boys
(19:32):
are very deep feelers. They they're empaths, especially my eldest.
He's six years old. He feels deeply everything. And I
think if my husband and I were not you know,
the kinds of parents that we are, and the things
that I study, and the way in which I really
want my babies to just be the whole human beings
they were meant to be. That's my goal, regardless of gender.
(19:56):
If I were to say to him, stop acting like that,
why are you crying so much?
Speaker 3 (20:02):
Stop? You know, getting all emotional? Men don't do that.
Boys don't do that.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
I can see how he feels so much that that
would make him a monster. It would completely change the
person he is meant to be. It would completely limit
his potential. There would be no release valve for him.
And so for me, that's what pains me the most
is on a daily basis, how many of these deep
(20:30):
feeling men who just need a space to cry and
share their fears are being told you don't get to
do that because you're supposed to be a man. And
how that then is leading to these levels of violence,
these levels of these monsters. You know, even when I'm
(20:51):
thinking about this horrific rape academy, where in order for
them to experience pleasure, they have to be violating someone.
So our fight against patriarchy is to save boys and
men from.
Speaker 3 (21:08):
Becoming these monsters.
Speaker 2 (21:10):
And if we're thinking about our interpersonal relationships with them,
and you know, I hate it's not to say that
the burden is on women to do this. It's on
all of us to allow them the space to be
human beings. It sounds so simple, and it really is
(21:30):
that simple in our conversations with them, Oh, what are
you feeling, Yes, that's okay to feel that, right, versus
shutting them down, because that is the biggest danger to
our society is men's inability to express themselves healthily, and
how they then turn that into violence against girls and
(21:54):
women in their lives.
Speaker 1 (22:02):
Man, I'll share you know all that I am, You're,
you're in real time, You're I had this framework where
it's like men are the ones that have to be
responsible for helping men because we're able to buy or
I'll use myself an able body, this gender, what have you.
(22:24):
But what you're really teasing out it's actually a problem
that we all have to and and it's tough because
a lot of the women in my life like, no,
that's your thing. You gotta go. You go check your homie,
you go do that. And that is true, right exact
because you're tired, and and the responsibility is they're gonna
because of the system domination, they're going to listen to
me more so I understand that privilege. But what you're
(22:46):
also teasing out is that it's the village, if you will,
that I can call them in, but then everyone around them,
regardless of their identity, has to reinforce that it's okay
to cry, it's okay to express I see you, I
hold your pain. I am that pain, you know, like
that kind of deep layer and that that work is
(23:09):
you give examples of it, but that to me, like
I always have this tension on between the macro and
the micro right and the macro is like like people
will see this training in academy, a rape academy, sixty
two interviews in a month, like there's no way we
could do that. Fuck all men, cancel all men, We're done.
And I get it because the exhaustion, the pain, the
(23:30):
violence is so palpable. Yeah, but that is that's the work, yes,
and it's not for everyone. I also realizing that, but
that is the work, and then the work of how
we better not better healthier parents? Are we doing things
that you know, I'm realizing a lot of this is
generational as well. Then I'm also like, we're also entering
(23:52):
a generation where robots are becoming part of the generation
that we don't know.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
Robots who are just replicating already out there exactly.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
So therefore the stakes seem more like daunting, if you will.
But I wonder if you could just tease out a
little bit more just about this, the fact that yes,
it's the responsibility for me to be a better person
for my own family first and foremost, and my partner,
but then yes, those men around me I need to
find ways to address in a healthy way.
Speaker 3 (24:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
But also trying to figure out, like a couple of
other conversations I've had, is like, well, if I call
somebody in for inappropriate behavior and they don't listen, do
I lose that friendship because the losing the friendship is
also the canceling.
Speaker 3 (24:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:37):
Or then father Grego say no, you just keep inviting
them back to the ready Yeah. But then the folks
that they did harm are like, nah, bro, you're complicit
in that harm because you're not canceling them.
Speaker 3 (24:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
And that's the delicate thing that I think. It's not
as black and white binary like the system wants us
to think. But that is literally the conversation right now.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
The questions of reconciliation, restorative justice, care and what is
available to us, what should be available to us in
those moments. One I'll say, I think being able to
move case by case is really important. Right If we
have these like sweeping decisions and we're saying, no matter what,
(25:22):
this is how I'm going to act, that always ends
up trapping us and we're unable to have flexibility. And
that's one of the primary issues with patriarchy itself as
a system is it's so rigid on purpose because it's
protecting something that's really fragile and made up, and therefore
in order to protect that, it has to be so rigid.
(25:42):
But anything that's that rigid is easy to break. It's
not foundational, it's not supported, it's not sustainable. And I
have been doing a lot of thinking about what was
before patriarchy, what existed before these punitive systems also that
come out of a patriarchal nation. My next book I'm
(26:04):
looking at actually is how patriarchy shows up in the
criminal justice system in the United States, especially when girls
are put behind bars and women who are survivors and
who are defending themselves. It's really the worst outcome of
this patriarchy is mass incarceration. And so the question then becomes,
(26:28):
so what existed before this? And I've been looking specifically
into some of the original belief systems of West Africa
and how many of them saw us all as just
being a part of community first and foremost. So if
somebody does harm in that community, it's about calling them
(26:48):
back into the community and they have to repair with
every community member. So you don't get away with doing something,
but you already see yourself as being connected to this life,
larger community that you are not being isolated, but you
have a role to play in correcting what you've done.
(27:10):
And I would say, I imagine in a society that
is so communal, you're seeing much less harm, You're seeing
much less violence, You're seeing much less quote unquote crime
because people aren't needing to do the things that many
of them choose to do in desperate situations. And these
(27:31):
belief systems were so inclusive, so feminist, so in you know,
recognition of identities beyond the binary. So a part of
it is sort of like the chicken and egg conversation,
you know, like what comes first? How do we move
now from a society that has so much violence and
(27:51):
pain into restorative justice, into repair, into healing because the
levels of violence are so herrarize, how do we imagine
bringing men back into the fold who again thought it
was okay to violate their wives and to.
Speaker 3 (28:14):
Plan it.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
You know, it's like on so many levels, so disgustingly bad.
Yet do we believe there is some way in which
they can be helped, in which they can do something.
Speaker 3 (28:30):
For our entire community.
Speaker 2 (28:32):
Is it that they need to, you know, work on
themselves and then work with young people saying I became
a monster and I don't want this to happen to
anybody else. Those are the kinds of hard questions that
we have to ask because what's going to come first.
If we can't experience any level of healing, how do
(28:54):
we get back to being a community.
Speaker 3 (28:57):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (28:58):
But at the same time, justice matters. It's not going
to be you know, we've seen cases actually globally where
leaders come in and say, you know, all this violence
has happened, but let's extend forgiveness and let's just move forward.
And in those places, it's often women and girls who
(29:18):
experience the most violence who are saying, this isn't justice
for me. I don't believe just because you, as leaders
were able to shake hands and reconciliate, I'm the one
who suffered as a result, and we have to acknowledge
that as well. And in those cases, I would ask
those women and girls, what is it you need to
feel justice here? Because it will be case by case,
(29:40):
as I said at the very beginning, but I also
want us to get to a place where we can
return to being more in community while experiencing justice at
the same time, I don't believe in blindly just being
able to say, well, we're all human and we can
we can find ways to move forward in those community
(30:02):
spaces and in those belief systems. Justice still really mattered.
So it's a question of how we still receive that.
And we can all agree that our current way of
criminal justice and approaching it is not working for anybody.
It's actually just creating more violence. So that I'm just
adding more questions to the table. But I think that
(30:24):
we have examples from what existed before, and we can
ask ourselves what will it take to return to a
pre colonial mentality around community and restoring that community when
harm has taken place?
Speaker 1 (30:41):
Well, thank you so much, because the answers are always
in the questions, and the question I was going to
ask you actually answer, which is case by case spaces
deep listening and belief and asking the survivor what would
justice look like you without any assumptions on anyone's part,
(31:03):
just literally being led by that. Yeah, and it sounds
like but then there also has to be the underlying
thing that I keep hearing through all this is an
underlying belief that folks can change. If we don't have that,
then there will be no repair or restorative anything, because
then the justice may look punitive in a way that
(31:27):
this experiment has shown doesn't work for anybody. But again,
it's like being led by that survivor voice, and what
one survivor may want the.
Speaker 3 (31:35):
Other may not exactly.
Speaker 2 (31:37):
And what are the consequences that don't rob all of
us of humanity? Right having a death penalty or having
a person in solitary confinement that robs all of us
of humanity? When I think of the amount of people
who are put right now in holes basically twenty four
(32:01):
to seven, sometimes for years at a time, how is
that helping any of us to heal right? Versus somebody
who does something really horrible whose consequence is to continuously
have to do something good in this world on a
day to day basis, right Like, I don't know what
(32:23):
that could look like, but that feels more returning humanity
to all of us than many of us ignoring the
fact that in humanity is happening to thousands of people
on a day to day basis right now.
Speaker 1 (32:42):
So over the weekend I had I got to see
a dear friend that you should definitely meet, and was
Tosh Collins, an incredible indigenous man in this space of
wellness and healing, and he's literally tackling the same thing
that you're talking about. You're going to the continent of
(33:05):
Africa and he's looking at first nations here and what
he's uncovering is that when the slave ships came, they
were I don't want to say fascinating, but they were
awe struck that the indigenous folks of this land didn't
have a system of domination and control even when those
did commit harm. And so they imposed a particular rigid
(33:29):
set of definitions of how do we maintain power and
control that there was no word for that. And again,
it's like when you say case by case, it's land
by land, continent continent, and tribe by tribe. But I
do have to have a belief that there is some
underlying sense of connection belonging to community. And again, and
(33:49):
people weren't putting labels on you either like you weren't
a man or woman. You were just y Mike, or
you were just Ana like and you were embraced for
all of that.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
I mean, there's something to be said about how I
guess in a way, the level of violence is only escalating. Right,
if we don't shift towards community, we're going to be
seeing worse and worse instances. Right of just the scale
(34:20):
of violence in the United States, it's become so normalized.
We can look to gun violence as one example. Just
more and more people are being shot in more and
more vulnerable spaces.
Speaker 3 (34:35):
Right.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
If schools are not enough to shock people, what is
and that's not reducing in the United States. I think
the further we get from these indigenous community models, the
worse the violence is becoming. And therefore the idea that
somebody could be brought back into community becomes further from
(34:58):
our understanding. It's hard to imagine that because the levels
of what's being committed is just rising, and that is
what colonialism did. Like, these were levels of violence and
humanization that these indigenous communities had never experienced. I mean
(35:21):
people often talk about in West Africa, you know, while
they were enslaving each other, and you know, therefore this
was contributing to it, but it wasn't to the level
and the extent. You know, I'm not justifying any form
of oppression, but I think we're really we forget that
we are experiencing this violence on an unprecedented level in
(35:46):
terms of even nuclear violence, bombs, guns, how much destruction
we can create, more than ever before. And so that's
why it's difficult to then return us to we can forgive,
we can have restorative justice, and at the same time,
it's the reason we need to because if not, it's
(36:08):
only getting.
Speaker 3 (36:09):
Worse from here.
Speaker 1 (36:10):
Before we go to the last segment, is that what
is giving you hope or what's giving you hope right
now in the midst of unprecedented levels and new forms
of violence that are being done on a mass scale. Yeah? Yeah,
what gives you hope in this moment?
Speaker 3 (36:27):
So interesting.
Speaker 2 (36:28):
So my husband Michael Tubbs, he was the mayor of
Stockton for four years, and I mentioned that because one
of the things that he worked on, he's very he's
like very innovative. He's always thinking of, you know, this
system isn't working, so how do we help people and
in this conversation around restorative justice, but also how do
(36:48):
we still see people in their humanity. One of the
things he worked on was called Advance Peace and Stockton
at the time there were such high levels of violent shootings, murders,
And they did this study to see who was perpetrating
all of this violence, who was behind all of this pain,
(37:12):
And it was actually like a relatively small number of people.
I don't remember the exact number, but I want to say,
let's say, like eighty people in like the city of
three hundred thousand people were the ones who were tied
to most of the violence. And they found that when
they brought those folks in and said, hey, what's going
(37:33):
on with you, Like, what is happening, what do you need?
Like why are you doing all of this?
Speaker 3 (37:40):
Many of them.
Speaker 2 (37:40):
Really just needed support, right, They needed some sort of
intervention that didn't include creating more violence around them, you know,
putting them behind bars and these violent facilities. And we
saw a reduction in harm, a huge reduction in harm,
based off of this principle of first saying who is harming,
(38:02):
what do they need, what's happening to them, and how
do we intervene there versus allowing these cycles of violence
to continue. So when I think about this, and I've
been meaning to write some kind of op ed about this,
what's happening globally in terms of violence and who are
the perpetrators of it. It's actually probably going to be
(38:24):
the same, even on this larger scale. It's probably a
small amount of people, most likely insecure men who need something.
I mean, if we're looking at boot and if we're
looking at Trump, if we're looking at Natan Yahoo asking,
I mean, what is going on with these men?
Speaker 3 (38:43):
And is it that.
Speaker 2 (38:43):
We intervene and give them something they need to help
with their insecurities, or is it that maybe we get
rid of them, To be completely honest, that will reduce
the harm that is happening for millions billions of people?
Speaker 3 (38:56):
Who are those people?
Speaker 2 (38:58):
Because I actually think of a collective we could find
out right, we could come up with this list and
then realize that most of us don't want this, most
human beings don't want this, and then what do we
do with that information? I would be really fascinated to
explore that, because what gives me hope. The long answer
(39:22):
to that, to this part is, I think most humans
we want to experience peace, We want our loved ones
to be okay, we want to have access to the
resources we need to live to our fullest potential, and
we want that for generations to come. Most human beings
(39:47):
don't want to kill children in other countries. They don't
want to see somebody who is suffering. They want them
to have what they need. But we've been that like
feeling of what we all want and need has been
manipulated into in order for you to experience peace, this
(40:09):
person has to hurt or in order for you to
have resources, it's scarce, so not everybody can.
Speaker 3 (40:17):
That would be us.
Speaker 2 (40:19):
Then, thinking who told us that story and what was
going on with them? What was their insecurity that's now
become violence on such a large scale.
Speaker 1 (40:28):
Beautiful, Well, thank you for your words. So this is
the last segment we always it's called the Sacred five.
I ask you five rapid fire questions.
Speaker 3 (40:45):
Answer rapid fire.
Speaker 1 (40:52):
Our ways for more practical things for listeners or yours.
So all right, first one, name three things that make
you feel safe, connected and whole.
Speaker 3 (41:03):
Community, children, my ancestors.
Speaker 1 (41:16):
Okay, what song, book or prayer brings you back home to.
Speaker 2 (41:19):
Yourself, sister Outsider by Audrey Lord.
Speaker 1 (41:25):
Beautiful, what's one daily ritual or practice that grounds you.
Speaker 2 (41:31):
Gratitude going up to my kids, my husband, to saying
something I'm thankful for.
Speaker 1 (41:39):
What's one small action that listeners can take on their
healing journey, m.
Speaker 2 (41:50):
Creating the world we want to see in our relationships.
Speaker 1 (41:56):
And last one share a one line blessing or quote
that inspires you.
Speaker 2 (42:02):
A wall is just a wall and nothing we're at
all It can be broken down.
Speaker 1 (42:06):
By beautiful Yeah that was that was one of the
final chapters in your book, and how she changed her
name and just said that. Well, I want to thank you, Anna.
I feel like we can talk for a couple more hours,
and so like there's so many other questions that I have,
(42:27):
but at the right time will come. I'll come back,
but I will want to say. What I really really
appreciate is your ability to model how to hold the
tension between history, the mass scale, the violence, and our
agency to do something about it in our everyday lives.
And it's you always, you know, through the book, through
(42:50):
just hearing you right now, it's like easy for us
to point because then that means we don't do the
work inside because we're all we've all been impacted by
the by American peage, sharchey, by these levels of oppression,
some more than others. But at the end of the day,
we're all being hoodwinked and we're all being tricked, like
you said earlier, But if we can start to realize that,
(43:11):
how does that play out in our relationships with those
closest to us? Which is also bringing up a lot
for me because those closest are to us are oftentimes
the ones we actually harm. Yea, and that says a lot.
That's a whole other episode. But like, but your hope
is that we can figure that out. And I love
how we ended with the Van's piece in the sense
(43:33):
of like they did something on a micro scale that
you're like, what if we experimented on macro and the
ratio would probably be be the same. And we know
the antidote is love and support, But are we willing
to love a trump as much as we love our child?
(43:53):
Most people would be no. But on the spiritual side,
if we don't get to yes, then what are we doing?
Speaker 3 (43:58):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (43:59):
And that is the part of the mirrors. But you
beautifully excessively say this in this book, And so as
a father of a newly thirteen year old, I can
point this to him to read and to dialogue together
on to see how I can be a better parent,
(44:20):
but also that he can have a context to understand
like Miho. This is part of the design. They want
you not to be expressive. They want you to think
you're like somehow superior to X, Y and Z. We're
not any of that.
Speaker 3 (44:38):
That's so beautiful.
Speaker 1 (44:39):
So anyways, just thank you so much for your work.
Whatever I could do be a supportive I just think
it's amazing. And so just thank you for who you
are and your ancestors and your beautiful husband and children.
Speaker 3 (44:50):
Just thank you, thank you, thank you so much for
having me. This is such a beautiful interview. Thank you.
Speaker 1 (44:55):
Sacred Lessons is a production of My Heart's Michael threw it.
A podcast network, Your Lessons Media and the Prince Group.
For more of your favorite shows, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
What are the psycles fathers passed down that son, so
they're left to heal. What if being a man was
about holding it all together but learning how to let go.
This is a space where men speak of truth and
find the power to heal and transform on Mike Dela Rocha,
Welcome to Sacred Lessons. My guest today is Ana Maleka Tubbs,
(00:23):
a New York Times best selling author of The Three Mothers,
and her latest book, Erased What American Patriarchy has hidden
from us In a Race Honor, reminds us that American
patriarchy is both simple and complex, simple in the way
it touches all of our lives and complex and how
it impacts each of us differently depending on how we
(00:45):
are seen and how we identify. And today we're going
to explore what it means to unlearn those systems in
ways that we can imagine and build new systems and
ways of being in relationship with each other. Anna, it's
so great to meet you in the flesh. Well, thank
(01:06):
you for this incredible book, Like you know, you met
my partner and I haven't put it down. I like
had to rush through it and it was highlighting, but
I really loved it because a lot of my understanding
and masculinity, I've gotten no surprise by black women, whether
it was Audrey Lord or about Hooks. Lorianzeo Do was phenomenal.
(01:28):
And then obviously your book and I wrote I wrote
Sacred Lessons because I couldn't find a book from a
Chicano to a Chicano. And as much as uh I
was gaining so much from these other books, I was like,
there's a uniqueness to it. And what I love about
your book is it goes through from the very beginning.
And oftentimes books are about the interpersonal dynamics of patriarchy
(01:52):
and violence, or they're about the structure, and you actually
do both, which is profound. So can we just get
into it around like you sturve from the very beginning,
from when there's always been people on this land, but
when colonizers first came, they came with a particular set
(02:13):
of ideas, and so I wonder if you can just
unpack it from there and then we go on.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
Yeah. Absolutely, Well, thanks so much for having me. I'm
so honored to be in conversation with you. Yeah, let's
start with the race. So I when I talk about
American patriarchy. I'm kind of the first to say American
patriarchy together, and so many people ask me why am
I talking about it on this national level as opposed
to patriarchy all around, And I think it's to your point.
(02:39):
We've talked about it very generally, and I think it's
one of the reasons we haven't really been able to
fully dismantle it because I've seen patriarchy operate across the
world and the places that I've lived, but it is
unique in each of those places. It's unique to the
leaders who chose patriarchy, who wrote it into the documents
(03:00):
of those nations, because patriarchy is not the natural order,
it is not divine. It comes down to men saying
this is what we want for our nations. So when
we're talking about the quote beginning, as you said, we're
not talking about those who already lived here and admirable
claims to this land and the first peoples of this land.
(03:22):
I'm instead talking about the founding fathers of the United States.
And yes, they inherited a patriarchy from the monarchy, but
when they won the Revolutionary War, they had an opportunity
to build something new. And we know that Abigail Adams,
for example, says to her husband, remember, the ladies do
(03:43):
better by us than the monarchy did. She's aware that
they are creating a new nation, and she's saying, these
are ways in which we could improve on what we've inherited.
And the Founding Fathers actually say, no, we are not
going to lean into your feminine way, as they say
that they know better than her feminine ways is the quote,
(04:03):
and they double down on we are building a republic
of men, so when we're having of white men, and
I'm definitely going to get into all those levels of it,
because when we're having these contemporary conversations about patriarchy, it's
very easy for people to be pointing fingers at each other.
But what I want us to do for a moment
is kind of put those fingers down and together say, hey,
(04:25):
let's look at what the Founding Fathers built and what
was going through their minds in seventeen seventy six, two
hundred and fifty years ago. So they signed the Declaration
of Independence, then they win the Revolutionary War. They are
the underdogs. No one's expecting them to win. And in
those ten years after the Revolutionary War and before the
Constitutional Convention, you're seeing the revolutionary spirit continue to spread
(04:49):
across this new nation. So women are asking for more,
people who are enslaved or asking for more. We have
indigenous people asking for more protection, recognition. Poor people are
asking for more. And the Founding Fathers are very fearful
that they're going to lose power in the nation that
they've fought to one, and so they approach the Constitutional
(05:10):
Convention with fear and insecurity. And that is at the
core of what they write into the constitution. How do
we maintain power in our hands so that nobody else
can have access to it? And they define that by
saying that men like them get to vote, men like
them get to own land, men like them get to
(05:30):
represent themselves. Nobody else gets to do that. Then they
say to the women in their lives, so the women
who are attached to them quote in their minds attached
to them that all that they can do is reproduce
the power of men through children. So our nation is
set up with this problematic binary, this gender binary that
(05:51):
erases anybody who is gender non conforming and says, okay,
there is man and the white elite men who the
Founding fathers are and say anybody who's like them will
be acknowledged and the women in their lives. However, that
is not the end of the definition of American patriarchy,
because the Constitution also protects the institution of slavery, meaning
(06:12):
they're not including black people in their definition of man
and women, they're not including immigrants from that point forward,
They're leaving it up to the states to decide if
people who don't own land will even be able to vote,
meaning they're not including poor people in their definition of
man and women. And the list of who they're excluding
(06:33):
goes on and on. So basically, American patriarchy has been
telling us all along that we are fighting for our
right to be gendered in the United States based off
of the Founding Father's definition of gender, and so we've
been tricked into thinking if we can assimilate to these
acknowledged groups, then maybe we'll know what it means to
(06:56):
be treated as a human being here, and then if
we can protect this made up social order, then perhaps
we'll be rewarded someday. So that is the system that
we all find ourselves in and tricked by, whether it
was meant to serve us or not. It's actually hurting
all of us and keeping all of us from accessing
(07:18):
full humanity.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
For someone listening, how do I frame this? When I
went on tour with my book, I was very cognizant
of reaching men that sometimes we're afraid to go and
have conversations with. Yeah, and I couldn't use the word
patriarchy because then immediately they would be.
Speaker 3 (07:37):
Like, done, I'm not listening, very trickering.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
How do you define patriarchy just in layperson's terms?
Speaker 2 (07:44):
Yeah, The reason I always say, that's why I don't
want to attack any contemporary men, you know I'm not.
I mean, we can get into those examples if we
want to, But in this book, I'm much more saying
this wasn't built for you either, This was hurting you too.
And so to say, first, the layer of patriarchy is
to define humanity based off of gender, that you're either
(08:07):
man or women.
Speaker 3 (08:08):
That's the first layer of patriarchy.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
And then to say that women are below men in
that categorization. But then to say, actually, nobody gets to
be fully human in patriarchy. So that's how I define it,
less as men versus women or all men are oppressing women,
(08:31):
and more so as this is a made up hierarchy
that doesn't serve us and in fact is especially hurtful
first to men. And then that's why so much violence
happens towards women, because men have been confined and men
have been told that they can't be who they fully are.
(08:51):
And really approaching the conversation from this isn't helping any
of us, but together we could actually do something about it.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
Yeah, I want to just thank you because in this
political climate it's very hard to find compassion for those
men in power that are upholding those founding father ideals. Yeah,
because they're just the extreme form of it. Yeah. And
then it comes down and it trickles down because then
(09:21):
young folks of all backgrounds are subscribing to this definition.
If they want to be rich or famous or powerful, successful,
then they have to follow this. And that's why I
love how you say. It's what it's hidden from us
is our own divinity, humanity, who we really are.
Speaker 3 (09:43):
But especially but.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
Then in this time when there is being harm done
on multiple levels, the easier thing is to be like
us versus them, and whatever the us and them is.
And you're very cautious and intense being like no, no, No,
this is actually insidious and it's impacting all of us. Yes,
so could you unpack us. What I loved about is
(10:07):
you talked from foundational to structures and laws and Supreme Court,
to media, to social media, even to AI.
Speaker 3 (10:18):
Yeah you really read the book.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
Yeah I did. I had to get to the end
and so but like it's it's what I loved about
you say, it's so everywhere that is normalized just seen
as like a given. Yeah, when these are all binaries
and structures that are creating white sis straight created. Yes,
so I wonder if you can elaborate more on that.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
Yeah, Yeah, I wanted to give this full picture of
it because I didn't see a book that had done that.
And for me, it's always really important in my work
to take things that have become very complicated and that
seem very complicated on purpose, right, so that we can't
do anything about them, to make them very obvious and
(11:01):
very clear and understood by all of us. Whether you know,
it's a PhD who studies computer science, they would be
able to understand my work, or a high school student
would be able to understand my work. So I'm never
speaking necessarily in these terms that I think are layman's terms,
but more so universal language that can help us all
(11:21):
to understand ourselves and each other. So that's why I
wanted to see it really on every layer and presented
in that way so that it becomes so obvious to
us how created, how manufactured it is, because we've been
presented this notion that it is divine and that it
(11:42):
is our only option right and that it is inevitable.
But that's just not the truth. So when something is
made up in order to make it seem inevitable, this
is where consequences come into play, where you have to
punish anybody who's showing you there's another way of living,
or that we can always make other choices. That is
(12:05):
when laws are written to protect this made up social order,
so that anyone who breaks the laws is going to
be made an example. And then we are continuously seeing
it in our day to day lives in twenty twenty six,
because the United States is only two hundred and fifty
years old, we are a relatively young country, so all
(12:28):
of this history is it's not ancient, it's very recent.
If we've not looked at the Constitution from this perspective
of male insecurity being at the center of it, then
we've also not seen how every structure that came out
of it, every institution that came out of it, every
law that came out of it, also had that at
(12:50):
the center, white male insecurity, and we haven't then challenged
it in that way on this national level. But I
always say too that those who were pushed the furthest
from it were able to see it for what it
was from the very beginning. So if we look at
black women as an example, and a lot of my
(13:12):
work is particularly around black motherhood in American history, black
women are the only ones who were told by law
that our children were somebody else's property, that our children
were not children. In fact, they were someone else's property.
But it's never been the case that black women said,
oh well, if the law says so, it must be true. Right.
(13:34):
That is the immediate power that those who have been
cast away from American patriarch here given, is this knowledge
that it is bs, that it is made up, that
someone just wrote a law that doesn't make sense to
us and doesn't serve us, and is not enough for us.
And therefore we've always professed a different way of living,
(13:57):
which is creating a world where we are seen as
human and we're our most precious beings are seen as human,
our children, and how that then helps everybody else to
be seen as human beings as well. And so my
biggest takeaway really from writing this book was helping people
understand that when something's made up, you can always make
(14:19):
up something else. You don't have to wait for this
to shift on a national level. We can do that
in our day to day lives. So that's why I'm
constantly having a conversation between the national and the structural,
as well as the personal and the communal, because it
exists on every level, both the patriarchy we're facing. But
what we can do about it, we can start right away.
Speaker 1 (14:41):
Yeah, I mean that's what I love. Like every chapter
started with your story, or your mother's story, or your
children's story, what have you. But I want to I
want to dive in around this. You saend male insecurity
and so much of this is rooted in fear and
insecure and in a moment when we're living in a
(15:05):
time of changing everything. Societal structures are changing, our definitions
of being a human is changing. With AI, there's a
lack of a lot of men feel lack of control,
which your book is teasing, was that ever controlled to
begin with? But my point is is that when when
we feel like we don't have control anymore, that's when
(15:28):
we start to blame and escapego and harm. And it
comes down to this feeling of insecurity. And so in this,
in this writing of this book, in your work, how
do we address this on an interpersonal I don't know,
trying to get a structure right yet, but like interpersonal,
you're in a relationship with someone who identifies as a
(15:48):
male and you see they get laid off when you
see other things and the insecurities come up, or for
men of color like myself and others, Like, what I
really got from this is like this whole thing has
dehumanized us from the get go. So if your whole
inception is you're seen as othered, then you're always wanting
(16:09):
to be belonged, right, and we're not allowed to be belonged.
So I want to know, like what your thoughts?
Speaker 2 (16:16):
So many layers to that, So many thoughts are coming
to mind for me because the conversation of you know,
like let's say white men who might start to understand
that they also are being dehumanized in the system, right,
Because if you're told in order to be human, you
need to dominate the other people in your life and
you need to dehumanize them, it also hurts you, right,
(16:39):
something dies within you to be able to do horrific things,
or to be able to ignore other people suffering, or
to have to shut down anything that's vulnerable within you.
Speaker 3 (16:51):
Right.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
The examples that I use in the book for those
men that seem to be beneficiaries of the system and
seem to have it all power in the wealth, then
why are they all numbing themselves with drugs? Like why
is Elon Musk, who has all the money in the
world on drugs all the time? Because that isn't enough.
This system has also fooled them, it's also hurt them.
(17:15):
So that's one category of men who I would still
say I have compassion for. You know, I don't forgive
they're violent acts, but I can see what's happening in
terms of the male crisis, and a lot of people
talk about this epidemic of the male crisis. In my opinion,
that is it that they're not being allowed to be
fully human themselves and have had to numb themselves for
(17:36):
so long that even when they reach the peak of
success in this system, they now don't know what to
do with themselves. Then men of color, this is a
different conversation, and it's also why I really want men
of color to be able to let go.
Speaker 3 (17:52):
Of defending patriarchy.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
A lot of men of color, if they see an
interview with me and they see the word patriarchy, as
you referred to before, how triggering it is, they immediately.
Speaker 3 (18:04):
Want to defend it.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
But what's really important for them to understand is they
didn't build this. This wasn't for them from the beginning,
and therefore they shouldn't be protecting it. It also relies
on dehumanizing them, especially men of color, and using them
as a tool for the system to oppress the women
(18:29):
and gender non conforming people in their lives and the
children in their lives. And we're seeing these really horrific
instances of this right now. Right A lot of the femicide,
we've been seeing the killing by men of their ex
wives because they're losing control.
Speaker 3 (18:45):
You know what we're talking about here.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
It's because they were tricked into thinking that to be
a man is to be in control, is to dominate
is to not be able to voice your vulnerable feelings
of fear and sadness. And so when you ask me
about the relationships, and you know how we think about
(19:09):
that and the relationships in our own lives. Of course,
I'm thinking about my sons, especially with all this news
that's been coming up, and of course so many people
are asking me about it because of what I write about.
I think about my baby boys. Of course I think
about my daughter as well, but the conversation around these
are the sweetest little babies, right. And also my boys
(19:32):
are very deep feelers. They they're empaths, especially my eldest.
He's six years old. He feels deeply everything. And I
think if my husband and I were not you know,
the kinds of parents that we are, and the things
that I study, and the way in which I really
want my babies to just be the whole human beings
they were meant to be. That's my goal, regardless of gender.
(19:56):
If I were to say to him, stop acting like that,
why are you crying so much?
Speaker 3 (20:02):
Stop? You know, getting all emotional? Men don't do that.
Boys don't do that.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
I can see how he feels so much that that
would make him a monster. It would completely change the
person he is meant to be. It would completely limit
his potential. There would be no release valve for him.
And so for me, that's what pains me the most
is on a daily basis, how many of these deep
(20:30):
feeling men who just need a space to cry and
share their fears are being told you don't get to
do that because you're supposed to be a man. And
how that then is leading to these levels of violence,
these levels of these monsters. You know, even when I'm
(20:51):
thinking about this horrific rape academy, where in order for
them to experience pleasure, they have to be violating someone.
So our fight against patriarchy is to save boys and
men from.
Speaker 3 (21:08):
Becoming these monsters.
Speaker 2 (21:10):
And if we're thinking about our interpersonal relationships with them,
and you know, I hate it's not to say that
the burden is on women to do this. It's on
all of us to allow them the space to be
human beings. It sounds so simple, and it really is
(21:30):
that simple in our conversations with them, Oh, what are
you feeling, Yes, that's okay to feel that, right, versus
shutting them down, because that is the biggest danger to
our society is men's inability to express themselves healthily, and
how they then turn that into violence against girls and
(21:54):
women in their lives.
Speaker 1 (22:02):
Man, I'll share you know all that I am, You're,
you're in real time, You're I had this framework where
it's like men are the ones that have to be
responsible for helping men because we're able to buy or
I'll use myself an able body, this gender, what have you.
(22:24):
But what you're really teasing out it's actually a problem
that we all have to and and it's tough because
a lot of the women in my life like, no,
that's your thing. You gotta go. You go check your homie,
you go do that. And that is true, right exact
because you're tired, and and the responsibility is they're gonna
because of the system domination, they're going to listen to
me more so I understand that privilege. But what you're
(22:46):
also teasing out is that it's the village, if you will,
that I can call them in, but then everyone around them,
regardless of their identity, has to reinforce that it's okay
to cry, it's okay to express I see you, I
hold your pain. I am that pain, you know, like
that kind of deep layer and that that work is
(23:09):
you give examples of it, but that to me, like
I always have this tension on between the macro and
the micro right and the macro is like like people
will see this training in academy, a rape academy, sixty
two interviews in a month, like there's no way we
could do that. Fuck all men, cancel all men, We're done.
And I get it because the exhaustion, the pain, the
(23:30):
violence is so palpable. Yeah, but that is that's the work, yes,
and it's not for everyone. I also realizing that, but
that is the work, and then the work of how
we better not better healthier parents? Are we doing things
that you know, I'm realizing a lot of this is
generational as well. Then I'm also like, we're also entering
(23:52):
a generation where robots are becoming part of the generation
that we don't know.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
Robots who are just replicating already out there exactly.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
So therefore the stakes seem more like daunting, if you will.
But I wonder if you could just tease out a
little bit more just about this, the fact that yes,
it's the responsibility for me to be a better person
for my own family first and foremost, and my partner,
but then yes, those men around me I need to
find ways to address in a healthy way.
Speaker 3 (24:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
But also trying to figure out, like a couple of
other conversations I've had, is like, well, if I call
somebody in for inappropriate behavior and they don't listen, do
I lose that friendship because the losing the friendship is
also the canceling.
Speaker 3 (24:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:37):
Or then father Grego say no, you just keep inviting
them back to the ready Yeah. But then the folks
that they did harm are like, nah, bro, you're complicit
in that harm because you're not canceling them.
Speaker 3 (24:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
And that's the delicate thing that I think. It's not
as black and white binary like the system wants us
to think. But that is literally the conversation right now.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
The questions of reconciliation, restorative justice, care and what is
available to us, what should be available to us in
those moments. One I'll say, I think being able to
move case by case is really important. Right If we
have these like sweeping decisions and we're saying, no matter what,
(25:22):
this is how I'm going to act, that always ends
up trapping us and we're unable to have flexibility. And
that's one of the primary issues with patriarchy itself as
a system is it's so rigid on purpose because it's
protecting something that's really fragile and made up, and therefore
in order to protect that, it has to be so rigid.
(25:42):
But anything that's that rigid is easy to break. It's
not foundational, it's not supported, it's not sustainable. And I
have been doing a lot of thinking about what was
before patriarchy, what existed before these punitive systems also that
come out of a patriarchal nation. My next book I'm
(26:04):
looking at actually is how patriarchy shows up in the
criminal justice system in the United States, especially when girls
are put behind bars and women who are survivors and
who are defending themselves. It's really the worst outcome of
this patriarchy is mass incarceration. And so the question then becomes,
(26:28):
so what existed before this? And I've been looking specifically
into some of the original belief systems of West Africa
and how many of them saw us all as just
being a part of community first and foremost. So if
somebody does harm in that community, it's about calling them
(26:48):
back into the community and they have to repair with
every community member. So you don't get away with doing something,
but you already see yourself as being connected to this life,
larger community that you are not being isolated, but you
have a role to play in correcting what you've done.
(27:10):
And I would say, I imagine in a society that
is so communal, you're seeing much less harm, You're seeing
much less violence, You're seeing much less quote unquote crime
because people aren't needing to do the things that many
of them choose to do in desperate situations. And these
(27:31):
belief systems were so inclusive, so feminist, so in you know,
recognition of identities beyond the binary. So a part of
it is sort of like the chicken and egg conversation,
you know, like what comes first? How do we move
now from a society that has so much violence and
(27:51):
pain into restorative justice, into repair, into healing because the
levels of violence are so herrarize, how do we imagine
bringing men back into the fold who again thought it
was okay to violate their wives and to.
Speaker 3 (28:14):
Plan it.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
You know, it's like on so many levels, so disgustingly bad.
Yet do we believe there is some way in which
they can be helped, in which they can do something.
Speaker 3 (28:30):
For our entire community.
Speaker 2 (28:32):
Is it that they need to, you know, work on
themselves and then work with young people saying I became
a monster and I don't want this to happen to
anybody else. Those are the kinds of hard questions that
we have to ask because what's going to come first.
If we can't experience any level of healing, how do
(28:54):
we get back to being a community.
Speaker 3 (28:57):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (28:58):
But at the same time, justice matters. It's not going
to be you know, we've seen cases actually globally where
leaders come in and say, you know, all this violence
has happened, but let's extend forgiveness and let's just move forward.
And in those places, it's often women and girls who
(29:18):
experience the most violence who are saying, this isn't justice
for me. I don't believe just because you, as leaders
were able to shake hands and reconciliate, I'm the one
who suffered as a result, and we have to acknowledge
that as well. And in those cases, I would ask
those women and girls, what is it you need to
feel justice here? Because it will be case by case,
(29:40):
as I said at the very beginning, but I also
want us to get to a place where we can
return to being more in community while experiencing justice at
the same time, I don't believe in blindly just being
able to say, well, we're all human and we can
we can find ways to move forward in those community
(30:02):
spaces and in those belief systems. Justice still really mattered.
So it's a question of how we still receive that.
And we can all agree that our current way of
criminal justice and approaching it is not working for anybody.
It's actually just creating more violence. So that I'm just
adding more questions to the table. But I think that
(30:24):
we have examples from what existed before, and we can
ask ourselves what will it take to return to a
pre colonial mentality around community and restoring that community when
harm has taken place?
Speaker 1 (30:41):
Well, thank you so much, because the answers are always
in the questions, and the question I was going to
ask you actually answer, which is case by case spaces
deep listening and belief and asking the survivor what would
justice look like you without any assumptions on anyone's part,
(31:03):
just literally being led by that. Yeah, and it sounds
like but then there also has to be the underlying
thing that I keep hearing through all this is an
underlying belief that folks can change. If we don't have that,
then there will be no repair or restorative anything, because
then the justice may look punitive in a way that
(31:27):
this experiment has shown doesn't work for anybody. But again,
it's like being led by that survivor voice, and what
one survivor may want the.
Speaker 3 (31:35):
Other may not exactly.
Speaker 2 (31:37):
And what are the consequences that don't rob all of
us of humanity? Right having a death penalty or having
a person in solitary confinement that robs all of us
of humanity? When I think of the amount of people
who are put right now in holes basically twenty four
(32:01):
to seven, sometimes for years at a time, how is
that helping any of us to heal right? Versus somebody
who does something really horrible whose consequence is to continuously
have to do something good in this world on a
day to day basis, right Like, I don't know what
(32:23):
that could look like, but that feels more returning humanity
to all of us than many of us ignoring the
fact that in humanity is happening to thousands of people
on a day to day basis right now.
Speaker 1 (32:42):
So over the weekend I had I got to see
a dear friend that you should definitely meet, and was
Tosh Collins, an incredible indigenous man in this space of
wellness and healing, and he's literally tackling the same thing
that you're talking about. You're going to the continent of
(33:05):
Africa and he's looking at first nations here and what
he's uncovering is that when the slave ships came, they
were I don't want to say fascinating, but they were
awe struck that the indigenous folks of this land didn't
have a system of domination and control even when those
did commit harm. And so they imposed a particular rigid
(33:29):
set of definitions of how do we maintain power and
control that there was no word for that. And again,
it's like when you say case by case, it's land
by land, continent continent, and tribe by tribe. But I
do have to have a belief that there is some
underlying sense of connection belonging to community. And again, and
(33:49):
people weren't putting labels on you either like you weren't
a man or woman. You were just y Mike, or
you were just Ana like and you were embraced for
all of that.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
I mean, there's something to be said about how I
guess in a way, the level of violence is only escalating. Right,
if we don't shift towards community, we're going to be
seeing worse and worse instances. Right of just the scale
(34:20):
of violence in the United States, it's become so normalized.
We can look to gun violence as one example. Just
more and more people are being shot in more and
more vulnerable spaces.
Speaker 3 (34:35):
Right.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
If schools are not enough to shock people, what is
and that's not reducing in the United States. I think
the further we get from these indigenous community models, the
worse the violence is becoming. And therefore the idea that
somebody could be brought back into community becomes further from
(34:58):
our understanding. It's hard to imagine that because the levels
of what's being committed is just rising, and that is
what colonialism did. Like, these were levels of violence and
humanization that these indigenous communities had never experienced. I mean
(35:21):
people often talk about in West Africa, you know, while
they were enslaving each other, and you know, therefore this
was contributing to it, but it wasn't to the level
and the extent. You know, I'm not justifying any form
of oppression, but I think we're really we forget that
we are experiencing this violence on an unprecedented level in
(35:46):
terms of even nuclear violence, bombs, guns, how much destruction
we can create, more than ever before. And so that's
why it's difficult to then return us to we can forgive,
we can have restorative justice, and at the same time,
it's the reason we need to because if not, it's
(36:08):
only getting.
Speaker 3 (36:09):
Worse from here.
Speaker 1 (36:10):
Before we go to the last segment, is that what
is giving you hope or what's giving you hope right
now in the midst of unprecedented levels and new forms
of violence that are being done on a mass scale. Yeah? Yeah,
what gives you hope in this moment?
Speaker 3 (36:27):
So interesting.
Speaker 2 (36:28):
So my husband Michael Tubbs, he was the mayor of
Stockton for four years, and I mentioned that because one
of the things that he worked on, he's very he's
like very innovative. He's always thinking of, you know, this
system isn't working, so how do we help people and
in this conversation around restorative justice, but also how do
(36:48):
we still see people in their humanity. One of the
things he worked on was called Advance Peace and Stockton
at the time there were such high levels of violent shootings, murders,
And they did this study to see who was perpetrating
all of this violence, who was behind all of this pain,
(37:12):
And it was actually like a relatively small number of people.
I don't remember the exact number, but I want to say,
let's say, like eighty people in like the city of
three hundred thousand people were the ones who were tied
to most of the violence. And they found that when
they brought those folks in and said, hey, what's going
(37:33):
on with you, Like, what is happening, what do you need?
Like why are you doing all of this?
Speaker 3 (37:40):
Many of them.
Speaker 2 (37:40):
Really just needed support, right, They needed some sort of
intervention that didn't include creating more violence around them, you know,
putting them behind bars and these violent facilities. And we
saw a reduction in harm, a huge reduction in harm,
based off of this principle of first saying who is harming,
(38:02):
what do they need, what's happening to them, and how
do we intervene there versus allowing these cycles of violence
to continue. So when I think about this, and I've
been meaning to write some kind of op ed about this,
what's happening globally in terms of violence and who are
the perpetrators of it. It's actually probably going to be
(38:24):
the same, even on this larger scale. It's probably a
small amount of people, most likely insecure men who need something.
I mean, if we're looking at boot and if we're
looking at Trump, if we're looking at Natan Yahoo asking,
I mean, what is going on with these men?
Speaker 3 (38:43):
And is it that.
Speaker 2 (38:43):
We intervene and give them something they need to help
with their insecurities, or is it that maybe we get
rid of them, To be completely honest, that will reduce
the harm that is happening for millions billions of people?
Speaker 3 (38:56):
Who are those people?
Speaker 2 (38:58):
Because I actually think of a collective we could find
out right, we could come up with this list and
then realize that most of us don't want this, most
human beings don't want this, and then what do we
do with that information? I would be really fascinated to
explore that, because what gives me hope. The long answer
(39:22):
to that, to this part is, I think most humans
we want to experience peace, We want our loved ones
to be okay, we want to have access to the
resources we need to live to our fullest potential, and
we want that for generations to come. Most human beings
(39:47):
don't want to kill children in other countries. They don't
want to see somebody who is suffering. They want them
to have what they need. But we've been that like
feeling of what we all want and need has been
manipulated into in order for you to experience peace, this
(40:09):
person has to hurt or in order for you to
have resources, it's scarce, so not everybody can.
Speaker 3 (40:17):
That would be us.
Speaker 2 (40:19):
Then, thinking who told us that story and what was
going on with them? What was their insecurity that's now
become violence on such a large scale.
Speaker 1 (40:28):
Beautiful, Well, thank you for your words. So this is
the last segment we always it's called the Sacred five.
I ask you five rapid fire questions.
Speaker 3 (40:45):
Answer rapid fire.
Speaker 1 (40:52):
Our ways for more practical things for listeners or yours.
So all right, first one, name three things that make
you feel safe, connected and whole.
Speaker 3 (41:03):
Community, children, my ancestors.
Speaker 1 (41:16):
Okay, what song, book or prayer brings you back home to.
Speaker 2 (41:19):
Yourself, sister Outsider by Audrey Lord.
Speaker 1 (41:25):
Beautiful, what's one daily ritual or practice that grounds you.
Speaker 2 (41:31):
Gratitude going up to my kids, my husband, to saying
something I'm thankful for.
Speaker 1 (41:39):
What's one small action that listeners can take on their
healing journey, m.
Speaker 2 (41:50):
Creating the world we want to see in our relationships.
Speaker 1 (41:56):
And last one share a one line blessing or quote
that inspires you.
Speaker 2 (42:02):
A wall is just a wall and nothing we're at
all It can be broken down.
Speaker 1 (42:06):
By beautiful Yeah that was that was one of the
final chapters in your book, and how she changed her
name and just said that. Well, I want to thank you, Anna.
I feel like we can talk for a couple more hours,
and so like there's so many other questions that I have,
(42:27):
but at the right time will come. I'll come back,
but I will want to say. What I really really
appreciate is your ability to model how to hold the
tension between history, the mass scale, the violence, and our
agency to do something about it in our everyday lives.
And it's you always, you know, through the book, through
(42:50):
just hearing you right now, it's like easy for us
to point because then that means we don't do the
work inside because we're all we've all been impacted by
the by American peage, sharchey, by these levels of oppression,
some more than others. But at the end of the day,
we're all being hoodwinked and we're all being tricked, like
you said earlier, But if we can start to realize that,
(43:11):
how does that play out in our relationships with those
closest to us? Which is also bringing up a lot
for me because those closest are to us are oftentimes
the ones we actually harm. Yea, and that says a lot.
That's a whole other episode. But like, but your hope
is that we can figure that out. And I love
how we ended with the Van's piece in the sense
(43:33):
of like they did something on a micro scale that
you're like, what if we experimented on macro and the
ratio would probably be be the same. And we know
the antidote is love and support, But are we willing
to love a trump as much as we love our child?
(43:53):
Most people would be no. But on the spiritual side,
if we don't get to yes, then what are we doing?
Speaker 3 (43:58):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (43:59):
And that is the part of the mirrors. But you
beautifully excessively say this in this book, And so as
a father of a newly thirteen year old, I can
point this to him to read and to dialogue together
on to see how I can be a better parent,
(44:20):
but also that he can have a context to understand
like Miho. This is part of the design. They want
you not to be expressive. They want you to think
you're like somehow superior to X, Y and Z. We're
not any of that.
Speaker 3 (44:38):
That's so beautiful.
Speaker 1 (44:39):
So anyways, just thank you so much for your work.
Whatever I could do be a supportive I just think
it's amazing. And so just thank you for who you
are and your ancestors and your beautiful husband and children.
Speaker 3 (44:50):
Just thank you, thank you, thank you so much for
having me. This is such a beautiful interview. Thank you.
Speaker 1 (44:55):
Sacred Lessons is a production of My Heart's Michael threw it.
A podcast network, Your Lessons Media and the Prince Group.
For more of your favorite shows, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
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