Sacred Lessons in Violence Prevention with Cuco Rodriguez

In this episode of Sacred Lessons, host Mike de la Rocha sits with Refujio “Cuco” Rodriguez from the Hope and Heal Fund for a powerful conversation about gun violence, masculinity, and the stories boys are taught about power and protection. Moving beyond policy and headlines, Cuco explores how trauma, silence, and harmful ideas about manhood shape violence in our homes and communities, and why healing must be at the center of prevention. Together, Mike and Cuco reflect on firearms, domestic violence, accountability, and what it means to build a culture where men are taught that strength is rooted not in control, but in care, vulnerability, and connection.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
What are the cycles fathers passed down that son so
they're left to heal. What if being a man was
about holding it all together but learning how to let go.
This is a space where men speak truth and find
the power to heal and transform. I'm Mike Dela Rocha.
Welcome to Sacred Lessons. When we teach boys that power

(00:23):
comes from control, we shouldn't be surprised when that power
turns into harm. Welcome to Sacred Lessons on Mike Dela Rocha.
Today we're stepping into an urgent conversation because while we
often talk about violence as something that happens out there,
in reality it's much closer than we think. It lives
in our communities, it lives in our homes, and too

(00:44):
often it's tied to one of the most lethal means
of harm. Guns. Today's guest is Refujio Guco Rodriguez. She's
strategist an equity officer at the Hope and Heal Fund,
a California based organization working to reduce gun violence, suicide,
and especially in communities most impacted. But this conversation isn't

(01:05):
just about policy. It's about culture, it's about manhood, and
it's about asking a deeper question what happens when boys
are taught that power, protection, and identity are tied to
a weapon, but never taught how to process pain, fear,
or love. Welcome Google, Thank you, Yeah, thank you so

(01:27):
much for being here. It was funny. As soon as
I saw you, I mentioned, hey, you're wearing my hat.
Because one of the blessings of my life is that
people mistake me sometimes for Google Rodriguez, and when I'm
walking from behind. From behind, they see the hat, they
see the rings, they see the jewelry, but more anything,

(01:49):
they see the spirit in the heart. So I just
want to say thank you, thank you for all you bring.
So I want to get into this important conversation. You know,
you have been a leader in this work around gun
violence prevention, community healing. So before we dive in more deeply,
just what brought you to this work and why why

(02:11):
did you feel like this was a calling for you.

Speaker 2 (02:15):
You know, it's interesting because I was in a very
completely different profession. I was in manufacturing and maintenance and engineering,
which was my given profession, my undergrad work. When I
moved back to the Central Coast, my wife is from there.
I decided that part of you know, at least for

(02:38):
a temporary time, I was going to do kind of
social work work in the community, and then inevitably I'd
go back to to my you know, manufacturing engineering, and
I started. I found a job. Actually, Hector, who's the
executive director of National Impartist, hired me to be a caseworker.

(02:58):
At the time I was, I started as an entry
level case worker working with Team Moms. I was probably
like the first male in Santa Maria in northern something
Arona County to work with Tea Moms. But part of
the idea was that we would start working with team
fathers as well. Somebody at the state figured out back
then almost thirty years ago that young men were involved

(03:22):
in team pregnancies. Go figure, and so we kind of
started that program. For me, was originally going to be
a kind of a part time gig for a year
or maybe two years, and then I go back because
clearly the pay was quite different in terms of you know,
working in industry versus working in the nonprofit sector, you know,

(03:42):
and you know, thirty years later here I am never
really went back, and so for me, part of it
was really seeing yourself and a lot of the kids
that I work with young people that I work with,
But more importantly, I think coming to the especially as
a Chino activist, really, you know, we understand a lot
of the underpinnings and what happens, and as my friend

(04:04):
would say, that the proverbial cracks that we have to
crawl out of or that we fall into. And I
got that. But I think in working with young people
they looked like me. They were just like me that
made the same mistakes I did. You realized that the
only thing that was really exceptional about you was that
more people prayed for you and you were a lot luckier.

(04:28):
There wasn't really anything that I contributed to the conversation,
to be quite frank, and I could have ended up
in the same position as a lot of young people
that I work with, and so that really stuck with me.
And I think that that kind of provided me with
and in field, I think a gap, kind of a
hole that I wasn't really getting for my prior work.

(04:49):
I mean, for all intents and purposes. You know, my
parents were immigrants from Sacatecas. I wanted to be an engineer,
graduated did that. I achieved my American dream by the
time I was twenty two to twenty three, But I
was not fully satisfied. There was always something missing. And
so when I walked into this work, you know, or

(05:10):
was brought to this work, I really found a lot
more fulfillment. Certainly not the pay, but a lot more fulfillment.
And I think that that counted for a lot. And
I was very lucky that I got to do this
work early on, and I've been very fortunate that I've
been able to make a living doing this.

Speaker 1 (05:28):
And so, but this issue of gun violence in particular,
was there a particular incident or of the reason. Were
there a lot of those young people that you were
working with that were impacted by that issue?

Speaker 2 (05:43):
Yeah, I mean, you know at that time. It's interesting
because I think I've evolved quite a bit in terms
of my understanding back then, which is, you know, we'll
get into some of that work in terms of what
we focus on now in the work that I do myself,
Soul and Brian at Openheel and Lera as well. I
think for me, the lesson learnings back then, I work

(06:04):
with young people where the worst case scenario was gun violence.
It was always violence, but gun violence was always a
worst case scenario. In terms of implications for people, but
also a loss of life and or the trauma that
comes with that. At that time, though, to me, I
looked at guns especially given my experience. You know, I
grew up around a lot of guns in the community,

(06:26):
but also in my family. My father had many guns,
and I grew up. I mean, I was firing guns
when I was ten, knew how to change guns, knew
how to oil them. You know, my dad was very
I had a lot of guns. We use them for hunting,
we use them for a lot of things, and we'll
get into some of that as well. But back then,
I think that for me, the worst case scenario was

(06:47):
gun violence, but I also accepted that as a given
in the community, like they're there, I can't do anything
about that. I think now that I fast forward to
what I do now, you realize that that's actually one
of the locus controls that we do have as activists,
as workers in the community, as people in the community,
and we really what I should have done, what I

(07:08):
wish I had learned back then, was that we really
need to be asking the question why there are so
many guns available in my community and they're not in yours?
Right and predominantly white communities, for example. But in my
community it seemed to be readily available that young people
have access to high powered I mean, it is high
powered guns, and they shouldn't. And I think back then,

(07:33):
you know, you dealt with the impact of gun violence
and the trauma of gun violence. I wish I had
expanded that purview a little bit more.

Speaker 1 (07:41):
So your work now though, with helping heal find out
I want to tease that out one for those that
don't know what the Whope Heal Fund does. But then too,
what I've always appreciated a lot about the work that
you're doing now is you're really centering community violence and
eruption efforts. And so I want you just to talk

(08:03):
about the fund itself, but then the work specifically with CBI.

Speaker 2 (08:07):
Yeah, you know, our focus, our gun Our fund was
created after the shooting in San Bernardino, cal Wellness, Blue Shield,
Kaiser col Endowment, a few others, but really it was
Judy Belk that led efforts to create a fund that
was not focused necessarily on policy, and it looked at
gun violence comprehensively. So it's not just the homicides. You know,

(08:30):
a lot of people don't realize that half the deaths,
if not more than half the deaths in this country
related to firearms are actually suicides the other half. In
California it's about even. But usually throughout the country the
majority are suicides.

Speaker 1 (08:44):
And the majority are men, and the majority are.

Speaker 2 (08:47):
Men, and the survival rate for firearm related suicides is
like ten percent. With other means of suicide it's ninety
percent survival, right, so in the ten percent that survive
are severely compromised. So for us, it's really looking at

(09:08):
the gun itself and the impact that it has across
both both sectors. So while CBI is a significant part
of us because we are an equity fund and the
you know, equity plays a big part in the disproportionality
of impact in terms of homicides, certainly here in California,
but across the country related to firearms, we are now
beginning to see that kind of same level of inequality

(09:31):
in terms of impact that it's having young people of color,
particularly around suicides. But for us, our focus is really
trying to look at the not so especially for me
as a strategist, you know, there are very obvious factors
that contribute to gun violence that I think folks are
working on policy for example, is one, and then there

(09:52):
are things that people are not considering. And as a
fun my thing is especially having some dabbled in philanthropy,
and is that I think that we invest heavily in
things that give us very minor gains. And I think
that that if you know, especially as an engineer, but
as a strategist, to me, these are always the things

(10:12):
when you look at systems, I always look at you know,
there are very small things that can bring forth significant change.
The example that I always give people is if I
went to your car and I took a spark plug
out and I moved your spark plug the gap and
the spark plug and just one or even two four millimeters,

(10:34):
your car wouldn't function and one't function very well. And
to me, that's a very minor adjustment that you make
in a system that just throws the whole system off.
And so for me as a strategist, those are the
things that I look at in terms of systems. What
are these minor things that we can look at with
very minimal investment that people haven't tried or haven't considered,
that can have significant change or more change that what

(10:57):
we've been investing in the access one is I said,
you know, that's one of the things that I kind
of realized in the work that I did, is that
I accepted the notion that guns were available to young people.
I shouldn't have accepted that notion. I should have questioned that,
and my effort should have been focused on ensuring that
young people don't have guns. So for me, the overarching

(11:18):
focus of a lot of the work that we do
is about access. If you're vulnerable to suicide, then it
is about access. If you're you know a lot of
young people that we work with, if you're angry, if
you're manifesting every emotion into anger and range, then we
should talk about access to guns, you know. And and

(11:39):
so for me, a lot of the work that we
do is looking at those variables that contribute to con
violence that folks are not looking at. That's one of them.
Data looking at tracking of guns where they originate. Every
gun that is available on any street was legally purchased
at some point. We luckily in California, have a lot
of good data now in terms of how long it

(12:01):
takes guns from purchase to you know, the time they
appear on the crime scenes. So there is a lot
of data. We do a lot of GIS mapping to
really illustrate, for example, in California, that the vast majority
of homicides in the state of California are not in
large urban centers. What's driving homicides is suburbs, small rural communities.

(12:23):
You know, the Delayo's, the Lompoks, the Pattersons and Modestos, Livingstons, merceaid.

Speaker 1 (12:28):
All these reason why you think, I.

Speaker 2 (12:31):
Think the numbers are minimized. So for example, you look
at places like Lompolk or Delay know at different times,
these are communities that are forty five to fifty thousand
per capita some years, depending on when you look at
like Delaya one year almost had something like nine homicides
firearm related homicides in one year. So if you extrapolate that,

(12:52):
the way that the state looks at, the way the
researchers look at the data is number of deaths in
terms of homicides that are firearm related per hundred thousand.
So that means that that little community, if you if
you double that's that's almost twenty one hundred thousand. The
average rate in the state of California is three point five,
and so in a lot of these communities, because it

(13:13):
is small and it is nine, they minimize that and
think it's not that high. But when you look at
that from that lens, you realize that it's it's these
small pockets of communities that have two or three or
four or five that begin to contribute to more than
fifty percent, sixty percent of the totals in the state.
And so for us, those are the things that we
try to elevate, highlight, try to provide resources to community

(13:35):
organizations or data to communities so they can really begin
to articulate what's needed in the disproportionality. We look at
comparative you know what I call comparative equity, budgetary allocations,
what we allocate in terms of you know, what's sacred.
I mean, you know, I worked at a larger foundation.
One of the things that I took from them that

(13:56):
I really appreciated is that this country has a false
hierarchy of human value, where darker lives are valued less.
What we've added to that is that where it shows
is where we invest in how we define and by that,
what I mean is that usually if you see large
investments in communities like we work in Santa Barbara. I
worked in Santa Barbara. Lots how lives in that area.

(14:19):
Santa Barbara invests a significant amount of money in what
they call a fire prevention plan to make sure that
people don't lose their homes or die, probably some of
the most expensive real estate in the country. In its work,
nobody's died and a fire in the last like twenty
five thirty years. And yet in Sana Barbara County and

(14:43):
like other counties, there is a steady rate of twenty
to twenty three twenty four to twenty five people that
die annually fire on violence in terms of homicides and suicides,
and we have no plan or no investments for that.
And in part it's because they're either people that are homeless,
or they're people that are black, or other people that
are brown, or the people that are Asian or people
that are Native. And I think that for us, those

(15:03):
are the things that we try to afford to our
providers and perspectives. It's really ideas at the end of
the day. For me, you know, I think what openhel
tries to do is that this is to me really
about problem solving. I really think it should be about equity.
It should be about human nature. But at the same time,
I also think it's about poor problem solving, especially as

(15:24):
as a philanthropic organization, and that we've been making investments
in things that quite frankly, haven't given us the shift
and the change that we.

Speaker 1 (15:33):
Need out come. Well, let me ask you from you know,
if I know that there's more guns than people in
the United States, and when I hear that stunt, I'm like, well,
how can I make a difference. What do you say
to that kind of like pessimism, Well, there's just too
many guns. It is what it is. I'll get access.

Speaker 2 (15:55):
Yeah, well, and I agree with that, I mean our
position as an organization, and even be honest, my own
personal position because I have I grew up with firearms,
and more importantly to be to be quite honest because
where we are politically. You know, I've been reconsidering that
because you know, one of the things that I find interesting,

(16:16):
especially as a as an activist, is I like to
be very realistic about what history teaches us. And and
you know, one of the things I share with people
is that the only value that Trump's in this country
the Second Amendment is racism and I say that because
history tells us that the examples that we have, like

(16:38):
here in California, the only reason we don't have open
carry is because when Ronald Reagan was governor in the state,
the black panther showed up to the state capitol fully armed.
And so it was Ronald Reagan in the NRA that
led efforts to curtail efforts to open kerry in the
state of California. So to me, that's a perfect example
is here you have a you know, our ardent supporters

(17:00):
of the Second Amendment, but the only other value that
was more important was racist. You can't have black people
around people carry guns around. That's a little bit scary.
And so what I've also learned is that you know,
folks that are frightened losing their Second Amendment. It's all
projected fears for our communities. What we're seeing is an

(17:23):
onslaught of attacks and people actually being assaulted. And where
we've seen these things, especially in the Midwest or in
the South, where you have you know, white supremacis who
are showing up to communities fully armed. They're encroaching into
these communities. They feel that they have a right to
the only thing that's kind of re kind of buffed
that out and pushed it out. Is armed militias within

(17:44):
African American communities. So you know, from my standpoint, I'm
kind of you have to respect the fact that communities,
not all communities feel the same way about gun violence.
Latino communities in Texas, for example, or very supportive of
gun violence. Again, my own family is very supportive of

(18:04):
gun access. So I think, to your point, there is
a lot of accessibility, But I also think that there's
a middle ground in terms of, you know, we should
agree that young people shouldn't have access. That's why I mean,
I don't think anybody's going to disagree a twelve year old,
thirteen year old, fourteen year old, Well you should also agree.
I mean, I grew up around firearms. No one wants

(18:26):
to be around somebody who's been drinking and has a firearm.
I mean there's some basic, you know, things that I
think folks should agree to, and I think that we've
been avoiding that conversation for fear of you're going to
take my gun. Well I don't want to take your gun,
but we should come to an agreement on what's acceptable.
If I can't drive a vehicle while I'm any rated

(18:47):
like any you know, again, thoughtful gun owner would tell you,
you know, I mean I lived, you know, I grew
up in the US, and I grew up in Mexico.
In Mexico, if you were at a party and somebody
was drinking too heavily and they were arms, other had arms,
other people in the community would go and say, you know,
we're taking this weapon and when you sober up tomorrow,

(19:08):
come and get it. It's at my house. That was
kind of the self check that existed, and everybody kind
of knew that why because they were children, There were families,
and people were fearful and it was dangerous. I think
that there's a bigger conversation to be had. I don't
think it has to be necessarily. You know, our organization
doesn't take a position whether people should have or shouldn't have.

(19:31):
I agree with you. There's a lot of guns, and
I think that we should be talking about how to
take some of those guns out of circulation as well,
not reselling guns, repurposing guns. I mean, you know, we
knew a company, Nixon for a while watches, they do watches.
They were trying to figure out how to recycle firearms

(19:51):
to make watches, those types of things that we can do,
but a lot of folks don't realize it that even
within within law enforcement, sometimes those firearms are either we
sold back to guns gun stores, or they're really not destroyed.
They're kind of they get recirculated.

Speaker 1 (20:11):
So well, let me ask you this because you mentioned
it earlier when I knew we were going to have
this conversation, I was thinking about similar to you in
my family, especially in my father's ranch. I remember being
seven eight years old and shooting with my wilo, my father,

(20:35):
my Nino. It was just part of the culture. And
then the more I started unpacking it, you know, you know,
they were safely stored and all that stuff, but it
was a very masculine thing. The women were inside and
the men were outside shooting cans and doing things like that.
And I wonder if we could tease out this or
your thoughts on so much a manhood the least the

(20:58):
dominant definition of man and is is tied to protection,
and it's tied to a gun or a firearm. And
you know, I want to unpack that because you shared
something that it was very similar to my experience, and
I feel like a lot of Latino men probably have that.

Speaker 2 (21:14):
But well, I think that for our community, for especially
Latinos of Mexican descent. You know, I grew up in
two parts, two countries, very rural, and I think that
that's part of it. People that come from rural communities,
a lot of us do. But the history of it
is interesting to me because, like I said, I think

(21:35):
that that's important to unpack. We don't get to this
place by accident, you know, there are there's a process,
circumstances that create this and I think historically, you know,
firearms had a big part to do in colonization in
Mexico particularly, and so when you get conquered by by

(21:55):
and again there's more to it than that, but certainly
that was a big part of it. And early on,
what I do know is that, you know, native people,
you couldn't have firearms, you couldn't ride horses, and you
had to get permissioned, so charaiah all of these things
that you know that we have in Mexico. Now those
are Native people. That was a way that they could
prove kind of their valori, you know. But but we

(22:18):
had been in permission and slowly it became kind of incorporated.
Guns were similar. We were outlawed, but they began to
be incorporated. And I think that that just becomes a
way of aspiring to be kind of the folks that
oppressed you. I grew up in communities where a lot

(22:40):
of men had guns. My father, you know, true or untrue.
I mean, I mean, whether people agree or not. I
appreciated the perspective that my father had is that we
would go hunting, we'd use rifles, you know, shotguns, rifles.
Back then it was twenty two. You got to be
really good if you went hunting. It wasn't you know,
it was a twenty two. You only had one shot.

(23:02):
You had to be so rabbits, maybe a deer, maybe
if we were able to get that close, a lot
of doves, a lot of you know, things like that.
But but but handguns. My dad was really clear. You know,
we all had handguns. And my father would say, if
this handgun ever comes out of your holster or your belt,

(23:25):
someone needs to die. Like someone's not going to be equals.
And it's probably if you don't like in other words,
if it comes out, it's going to be used, because
if you don't use it, someone else is going to
use theirs like that was his whole thing. He was
this is not for show, this is not for hunting,
this is not this is really for protection and taking lives.

(23:46):
And again I'm not agreeing or disagreeing. That was just
his perspective and so for me, that's just something that
I didn't think. I you know, his thing was if
you're good with that, if you made that decision that
you can do that, then you can take a life,
then then yeah, then but if not, don't carry this

(24:07):
because most likely what's going to happen, And the data
tells us.

Speaker 1 (24:10):
That actually, which is about somebody takes.

Speaker 2 (24:12):
Your gun, you end up dying by your own gun.

Speaker 1 (24:15):
Having a gun around the stakes or the data shows
that the more likely there's going to be a homicide
there's a gun around. Yes, And that's where I'm trying
to figure out, like, if guns are so tied to
manhood and masculinity, yes, how we're going to reduce the homicide,
the suicide, the violence. If that's what the data is

(24:36):
at least showing us.

Speaker 2 (24:38):
Yeah, well then I think part of it. Again, I
go back to my early days. I wish I'd been
able to you know, which is part of the reason
we work with CBI folks now and having them focus
on the access piece, right on the gun piece. Why
are there guns available in my community? Why do people
have them? People traffic guns into our community? So what?
And it is tied to identity. But what I appreciated

(24:59):
for my father's perspec active is that guns were really
more an alternative to you know, I don't want to
say it's cowardice, but but the way that my father
would put it is that it's a reflection of people's
fear right, which, if you think about it, is really
quite the counter a valor and manhood where you have

(25:21):
to result to this. I grew up in a time
you know, I mean, not look at anymore, but but
I used to. I used to like to to brawl
with folks. I enjoyed that I had no problem size,
I had no problem. I was always afraid of getting
stabbed or getting shot. And to me, that was always
a very cowardice way. It was a cowardly way to
do this. I was fine with somebody beating me up,

(25:44):
and you know, okay that that was but that's the
way I grew up in Mexico. You know, like if
you had arguments with people. That's how people settled it.
When guns came into play, the rules were very clear
in Mexico. They were certain by lace is related to family,
related to fear, you know, harm that you you cross

(26:05):
that line, everybody you're like, oh, that person crossed the line.
They knew what the consequences were and they would lead
to that. And it really had to do with again,
not that I'm agreeing or disagreeing, but when you look
at what's happened in this country, we now come to
this country, those standards are very different. Now you disrespected
me on Facebook. So that so, and what I'm trying

(26:26):
to get to right now is kind of a deeper
part of your question, which is it's the guns to me, guns,
I look at guns like alcohol and people in recovery.
I'm never going to eliminate alcohol, but what I do
is develop interventions to say, you need to figure out
a way or you're going to go past that liquor
story every time and you're not going to use. And

(26:48):
that's a very different intervention because you're not, you know,
And while I'm focused and I want to make it
difficult for people to have access, right and we are
working on that part of it. It does not alleviate
me from developing interventions to help people address kind of
their addiction. And to me, guns are are kind of
a similar way. It's like, why does this have to be?

(27:11):
And and at the heart of it to me is
that I think a lot of the partners that we
work with look at guns as the root cause, and
to from from from a particular lens, it might be
the root cause. But one of the things I share
with the partners that we have, especially nationally, is like,
if you could have your way, what would it be
that where you call it a win and go home
and they would say every gun nobody has guns? Okay, great,

(27:32):
and then you call it and you go home. Yet
I said, okay, I said, my work is only begun.
What do you mean, I said, because it didn't change
the dynamic, It didn't change the violence, it didn't change
the perspective. Well, what do you mean. At the heart
of it is the idea that we so have to humanized,
been dehumanized, that we do humanize each other. That that
it's it's that it's that it is normalized for me

(27:53):
to say, you know what, Mike, you posted some stuff
on Facebook. I don't like it. And if I see you,
I'm gonna kill you. That's not normal. That is just
not normal.

Speaker 3 (28:06):
You know.

Speaker 2 (28:07):
Again, that type of work is not what we're funding.
You see groups like Against the End, Brotherhood of Elders
others that have been doing work in that, and I
think that that's the value of that work. And I
think for me, that's really at the heart of a
lot of the work that needs to happen that is

(28:27):
not being funded. That I think begins to address your point,
which is the availability of guns is one thing, but
it's really changing the mindset to have people feel that
this is this is the way to resolve issues is
to take someone's life. And to your point, I think
it's easy for folks to conceptualize the taking of someone's life.

(28:49):
They really don't stop and think about the impact that
it has on people. I meant multiple people that have
in my own family as well as in the work
that I do, that have taken lives and they've struggled
with reconciling the taking of life's I haven't seen somebody say,
you know what, I'm good with it. I mean, I
have not seen that. It's people that have had significant

(29:10):
mental health issues, significant alcohol drug issues as well as
you know, time served. But a lot of the impact
that it has psychologically is I think beyond comprehension of
most people.

Speaker 1 (29:22):
So would you say then then not firearm is almost
a symbol of the lack of or the fear that
the young man or that man is holding.

Speaker 2 (29:35):
Yes. And I think it's also you know, like other
I think it's an impulsivity. We see that in suicides. Right.
They talk about impulsivity in terms of people's ideations, you know,
in terms of you know, when somebody beings tidy eight
and then the time frame between that and the action.
So that's the impulsivity.

Speaker 1 (29:56):
Peace.

Speaker 2 (29:57):
Firearms don't allow you to take it back. And I
think that when you look at just the development that
we know about young people, like, look, let's be I'm
going to be very real with people, people that have
known me my whole life, probably you too, if we're
going to be honest about our development, and there are
times in my life when you would probably want not

(30:19):
want Cucko to own a gun just because of my
own development, my own temperament, all of these different things, right,
And if we're honest about that, then we would recognize
it young people because of their impulsivity, because of their development,
you know, all all of these things right that that
we may want to reconsider those things.

Speaker 1 (30:41):
It's an impulsive action. Yes, it's hard to come back.

Speaker 2 (30:45):
And when you talk to young people that are involved
in gun violence, I mean we work, you work with them,
I work with them on the back end of it.
They will say, you know what, I didn't know. I
was a kid, I didn't know. I mean it was
easy because it's easy to pick up the gun, it's
easy to fire. It's the aftermath of that that you know,

(31:06):
humans just don't do well with that. There's something sacred
there that we cross and this country doesn't talk about
it because what's priority is the second moment, your right
to do this, that's fine, But as human beings, there's
there's a sacredness there in the value of life. And
I think that as a society we've so devalued it

(31:27):
where it just becomes a very easy thing. But the
reality of it is to live with it. It's a
whole other and I think that to me, like I said,
for us, a lot of the work in partnership with
n CN, but how I got into this work, and
why I didn't leave so similarly is really to put
kind of that sacredness back there, not only for ourselves

(31:47):
but for other people. But I also think the deeper
part of this is that for us, as I said earlier,
because our experience is one where we get to humanized,
it has an impact on us and we begin to
do hearanize others. It's you know, the you know, lateral violence,
right you You might not have a locus of control

(32:07):
going up, but you do have locus control going sideways. Yeah,
you know France, for no one knew long ago that
that's how how humans function in terms of oppressive in
terms of colonization. So I think that we see a
lot of that play out. We don't talk about that,
and I think that that's a to me, that's a
really big part of what I'm hoping we're trying to do.

(32:31):
And what you see in people that have kind of
who have lived experience and are doing this work and
doing this work well, is that they're trying to reconcile
those things. They're trying to heal and address those things,
and and and part of that is that they they
appreciate humanity a lot more than I think they did
at one point.

Speaker 1 (32:50):
Yeah, well, thank you for that. What you're really bringing
up for me right now is the fact that we
live in a in a society, in a system that
dehumanizes particular groups of people, and in that dehumanization, we
want to feel whole. And sometimes the gun is that
way to feel whole. But it's that impulsive nature because

(33:13):
it's a lie that we aren't human. You see what
I'm saying. And that's the power of colonization. That's how
it's embedded and normalized in everything we do. And you
mentioned the word sacred, which is a very powerful word.
And I wonder, you know, what advice would you give
to a parent or a friend if they found a

(33:34):
firearm with someone that you know needs other services, support,
love care. What have you seen effective ways to make
sure that they don't stray from their own sacredness or
take someone else's life.

Speaker 2 (33:50):
You know, I think there's a lot of work to
be done in terms of you know, I talk about
the access piece in this country mental health. I mean,
again as a strategist looking at it from a very
different standpoint, this is a problem solving, a puzzle thing
for me There's multiple ways of looking at this, but
one of the ways I look at this is that

(34:12):
you have multiple systems in this country that interact with
people that are vulnerable, let's say for suicide e mts ers,
but mental health is the biggest, and in California we
have one of the most robust mental health systems in
the country, and yet they do very little to assess

(34:32):
whether or not people have access to firearms. They do
on the back end you decompensate, they're get to fifty
one to fifty, they begin to ask you, but they're
not doing it from beginning to end. Versus let's say
somebody like the VA. The VA assumes everybody has a
gun because a lot of them do, and so a
lot of their treatment plan, a lot of their crisis

(34:54):
plan involve kind of protocols and begin conversations a saying.
And so I start with that because I think it's
tell in terms of how ill equipped we are as
a society, in terms of our systems to navigat even
conversations about safety around firearms in like manner. Who gets

(35:15):
left out of these equations is people that have illegal firearms,
like a lot of young people we work with but
also conversations that have been left out. Guns and gun
violence and gun access gun safety largely has been a
conversation I remind people that has only been in English,
doesn't involve other people that speak different languages, certainly didn't

(35:35):
involve people to speak Spanish, and there's a large number
of people speak Spanish that all the guns and safety
is not one of their priorities. And I think we
can begin by that by incorporating strategies and having a
better standard about how we do this work around guns,
gun access, gun safety, and storage, so that people are

(35:57):
equipped to have these conversations. You know, I began my career,
like I said, working with team parents, but also in
doing reproductive health, and I tell people, you know, when
you do reproductive health work with Spanish speaking parents, you
can do anything, because that is like one of the
most stigma laden kind of issues. But the second one

(36:18):
I would say that's very difficult is talking about guns
and gun access and gun safety, how we view guns
and how we store guns, but also providing information to people.
And I think to the example that you provided, I mean,
I think part of it is is not to stigmatize
the fact that you know, you have a gunner. People
have different reasons. You know the history of gun ownership

(36:41):
in African American communities in this country, it's for a reason.
That's the only thing that kept the KKK at bay.
You know, a lot of activists from the early days
will tell you that shotgun was because people weren't going
to come to So there's a reason why why in
some communities exist. There's a reason why my father has gods.

(37:03):
There's a reason like a lot of these, you know.
So I think it's important to to not stigmatize that,
but it's also important for us to provide safety, uh
and access. And to your point, it also opens up
other conversations about people's mental health well being. Again, another
big stigma in our community, right should people be you know,

(37:23):
I've lost in my own family, like just cousins and
my cousin's plus two men who have committed suicide fibers. Right,
we all knew the old fire guy they and we
know we knew the guns that they use. We've seen
the guns that they use. And and to to this

(37:44):
isn't anything that is not it. It exists in all
of our communities, right, And I think that part of
the conversation that we need to be having is, do
you know if, if if people are going to choose
to have them, if they're not prohibited from having them,
or if we can't prohibit them from having them, then
how do we at least ensure that we develop a

(38:06):
process by which when they're not doing well, that we're
securing them or they feel comfortable to say, hey, I
wish my cousins had said, you know, I'm not feeling well,
take my gun right, something like that, just like we
would in other cases. And while those have become kind
of a normal conversation with white communities because there's data available,
there's information available, there's campaigns available, that really hasn't been

(38:28):
the case in our communities, and I think a lot
more has to be done around that.

Speaker 1 (38:36):
So when we talk about data and you talk about
access and safety, I know y'all did a report on
the impact of lack of data of domestic violence and firearms,
and I want to unpack that because you know, with
all the stressors and some of us may need more

(38:56):
mental health support or just more resources in general, it
is clear if there's a gun, the rates of domestic
violence increase, and I wonder if you can just tease
out what the data or lack of data is talking
about that intersection between domestic violence and firearms.

Speaker 2 (39:14):
Yeah, so a lot of the what we looked at,
you know, we produce was was a report. We wanted
to produce a report with the data. Where where we
started was again, this is a this is a puzzle,
it's a problem solving, and you need data you need
to look at so that you can begin to orient
yourself in terms of where where the interventions need to
happen to bring forth change within systems and and so

(39:37):
for us, what we really want, you know, we produced
the map that shared kind of where a lot of
these homicides were accreating. I think we mapped every homicide
in the state of California down to the street level
for like nine years, and it began to illustrate again
that a lot of these homicides were not in la
and they were sure there were a lot there, but
these little communities and rural areas in the valley were

(39:59):
really controuy meeting to a large number. It was the threes, fours, fives,
and tens whatever that contributed to a lot of it.
But the next question that arose was, okay, how many
of these homicides are intimate partner violence homicides? And we
went to a lot of partners and the data that
we kept getting back was like, oh, it's three percent,

(40:20):
it's four percent, and that just didn't sit right. And
so we began to look at work with the state
Department Healthcare Services and they told us that they had data.
I said, great, we're going to develop a second map.
We started working on the map, and then when we
went to get the data, only two counties were actually
reporting enough data where we could even draw any conclusions, right,

(40:42):
And it's in California. It's called CALVIDRS. And the only
counties were Orange County and Sacramento County. And Orange County
has a like a domestic violence death rebet team, so
their data is pretty solid. Their demographics look a little
bit different, clearly because Orange County. So my assumption is

(41:04):
that on average are much higher than that. But Orange
County came in at twenty percent. So, in other words,
twenty percent of their total homicides that are firearm related
were intimate partner violence related. It's like one in three, yes,
So I would say another county is based on other
data points like CDC calls to nine one one around IPB,

(41:25):
like Fresno County, I would say they're going to be
in the thirties and forties. Now, the implications of this
for us and for workers is that it undermines the
success of folks that are doing CBI work and let's
say gang related homicides, because it makes it seem when
you know, to segregate that data, it makes it seem
as if you have an increase or it's stayed stable,

(41:48):
when in reality, you may have had a significant decrease
if twenty ten percent thirty percent of those were actually
intimate partner violence related. So on the one hand, I
think it minimizes access to that work. On the second
point for us it's really important is that it robs
particularly women who are victims of IPv of needed resources

(42:10):
because we're not releasing that data. So the report that
we release, the paper that we released was really being
critical of counties and really coroners who are not submitting
that information for those two reasons.

Speaker 1 (42:23):
And I like a symptom, a large symptom, just so
we don't value women patriarchy all that.

Speaker 2 (42:28):
All of that, in addition to the fact that I
think it's ironically not in their best interest to disclose
the desegregated data because it's a lot easier to say,
you know, we have you know, one hundred homicides and
you know, firearm related homicides. We need more resources, which

(42:53):
people would say, okay, wow, okay, there's been an increase,
versus saying, well, there's one hundred homicides and you know
of those are actually intimate partner violence. So we've had
a total decrease in street violence, but we need more
money to address intimate partner violence. That doesn't fly quite
the same way. But to your point, the equity piece,

(43:15):
I think is an important part of it for us,
and I think that having accurate data from a safety standpoint,
from a health standpoint is critical and statewide, Like I said,
in California, there's only two counties that submit enough data
where we can even draw conclusions. So especially and so people,
you know, make it accessible, people want to read the report.

(43:37):
It really points out that there's some counties that have
super high rates of IPE calls and are submitting zero data.
If I was an elected official, if I work, you know,
that's really important information to have in terms of how many,
how many women, particularly women are dying in this? And again,

(43:58):
what types of interventions are we developing to prevent a
lot of these things from the correct Yeah?

Speaker 1 (44:03):
And it also sounds like, you know, to the credit
of the community violence intervention specialists, they know how to
handle that street level of violence, but we still haven't
figured out how to handle the inner personal violence within
our actual homes, which is where the majority you know,
the violence against women and children is happening. And you

(44:25):
know it's not you know, it's not out there, it's
in our homes, but we don't have the data or
the tools. It sounds like to actually address that head on. Yeah,
would that be an accurate statement?

Speaker 2 (44:37):
It would be accurate. I think, you know, earlier you
asked about masculinity, you asked about you know, kind of this,
this perception of how we define masculinity. I personally believe
that the hyper the more hyper that is, and access

(44:59):
to fire, the more impulsive that is. Is that you
see folks who have been victims or have witnessed intimate
partner violence, and anecdotally when you talk to people that
I mean, I you know, I've been doing this work
for a long time. We hired, you know, thirty years ago,
we hired people with lived experience. You know CBI, I

(45:23):
mean with CBI is doing this great, but a lot
of us were advocating for this and knew that this
was the way to go. And and I tell people,
if you want CBI people who lived experience, CBI workers
that haven't really been prepared well to address a lot
of their trauma. There's two trainings that they always show up,
they're sick, they don't show up. One of them has

(45:46):
has to do with suicide and suicide inventions, suicide prevention,
and the other one has to do with intimate partner
violence because it's too close. Yeah, And I would would
have these trainings and they're like, nobody would show, like
what's going on? Finally, Hey, what's up? And finally somebody
was really on, like, look man, it's just too close

(46:07):
and like and their expectation was that they were I mean,
these are very scary things for us, right, And so
if you don't address that within our population in terms
of you know, we're looking at folks with lived experience
to do very triggering work that's going to trigger them,
we don't provide a lot of the support for them

(46:28):
to address not only the ongoing trauma that you're exposing
them to. They've got to go out to scenes, they
got to you know, interact with this stuff that triggers them.
But also we've never addressed a lot of the trauma
that put them, that gave them their life experience to
begin with, which really means that they were arrested, they
did time because they may have shot someone or killed
someone right as well as whatever other trauma created and

(46:53):
prompted that. And I think that, to me, that's the
important part of I think what we need to be
doing a lot more in terms of this work. But
I think that when you look at what we're seeing
and who would be the appropriate folks to do the
a lot of the intervention I think CBI workers are,
especially in the context of men telling other men this

(47:14):
isn't appropriate. There's no community that I've ever worked in
where men think it's okay for men to hit women.
I've never been around a community like that. I've been
around men like that, but I've never really been in
a community where solid men are okay with that. You know.
Growing up, I think there was maybe one or two

(47:35):
incidences where I saw that at a party and all
my father and other men were like, hey, like, and
maybe not for the reasons that I would have thought,
but just the mere fact that they would do that
in public around other children, like people thought was unacceptable.
And some people, you know, took the men out, and
you know, they went out, but really, you know, whether

(47:57):
or not it happens in communities, but in reality, no
one's okay with that. No one's okay with that. And
if you ask a lot of the folks that do
this work, they're not okay with it either. We're just
not openly okay with it. And that's the part where
I think for me CBI workers, because that's what we
did before thirty years ago. This is the extension of
the work that they did. Is it's not just about

(48:19):
CBI work. You know, folks that are violent to each other,
and not just violent to each other in the streets,
they're going to be violent at home as well. And
so this is a natural extension of the work. And
it's also a natural it should be a natural expectation
of the work. I tell people when I hired people
who lived experience, I'm not giving you a job. I
want a good human being on the back end, I

(48:39):
want a good father, I want a good husband, I
want a good person. I don't want somebody who's now
doing gang intervention work and then is a horrible dad,
horrible husband. That's not what I want. That didn't really
accomplish anything in terms of the work in the community
other than decrease put some money in your pocket. That's
not what this is. And I think that that's the

(49:00):
the natural progression of the work and the expectation of
the work, which includes to your point, how are men
going to behave how are we going to be good parents?
We're talking about intimate partner violence, but chances are that
men who you know, hurt their their partners are also
hurting their kids, right, so it has to be all encompassing.

Speaker 1 (49:22):
When you said that we're not open about it, was
that talking that that men publicly don't say, hey, don't
don't be violent with your loved one, but in private
they do. Or what were you referring to?

Speaker 2 (49:37):
I think in the work that we do. I mean,
we're beginning to see this now, you know all what's
going on with Chas you know and Tel Wollen know
we're talking about this on the way up here. I
think that there's a taskit acceptance men who don't say
things to each other because they're fearful of losing their relationships.
You know, I my father. One of the things I

(49:59):
appreciated about him is that, you know, I pushed against
my father for a long time when I was younger,
but the teachings that he had were ancient teachings and
old teachings and they were very powerful. And one of
the things that he would say, you know, he said, oh,
never forget. In this country, friendship is defined very differently.
It's two friendship is that you know, here, you tell

(50:22):
your friend what they want to hear. He said, true friendship,
if you really really love someone, respect someone, you're gonna
not You're not going to tell them what they want
to hear. You're going to tell them what they have
to hear. Right, And that may fracture the really but
but but that's what you owe somebody. And to him,
that was a really interesting kind of like perspective that

(50:44):
he would see in this country that he would share
with me and saying, you need you need to be
this way. You need to tell people this not what
they want to hear. If not, they're really not your friends,
because that's not you're not being helpful. And I think
to a certain extent in the work that we do
in the movie moments that we revolved in, but in
the work that we're doing, is that I think that
sometimes we know that men are not acting in appropriate

(51:06):
ways and either one we don't say anything or we're
not very public about that. And I think we need to.
I think we really need to in this work. There
are certain things, you know, we let's use CBI, but
any other example of you know, the para professional positions
or professional positions that we're professionalizing. You know, there's standard

(51:28):
expectations of what you can do in the work, and
you can you can't go. You know, thirty years ago
in the nonprofit sector, people were drinking on the job
after work. People would drink. Is that acceptable now? No,
it's not acceptable anymore. There's certain things that are not acceptable.
And I think that this is a natural progression in
terms of expectations of people that are doing the work,

(51:53):
or just expectations of men, just expectations of men. And
I think that there's there's a there's a a it
is okay for men to simply say I just turned
a blind eye, don't say anything to it. And it
should be it should be you know what, that's not cool,
that's not appropriate. And more importantly, why are you putting

(52:14):
me in a position where I have to watch this
or I have to be aware of this and now
I'm complicit because so no, I'm not going to be
cool with this. And I think that you know, the
example that stands out for me is I think growing
up and men who were married and other menu that

(52:35):
were having affairs. Right, that's a common one, right, But
it's that type of behavior, I think, and I think
in this work it's a very similar thing. If you're
engaged in certain things and you can't I mean, we
all know you can't do CBI work, right, And I
think that this is an extension of it. But I
also think again, I think that this is this is

(52:57):
the right messaging for men that are already doing this
work that's very difficult. CBI work is very difficult. This
is this shouldn't be very hard for us to say,
you know what, men, we're we're not okay with men
hurting women in our community. You're hurting children in our community.
Why is that such a hard thing to expect that
of a profession. It shouldn't be.

Speaker 1 (53:19):
Yeah, I'm I'm sitting with this tension between what you
you mentioned so much, just specifically around this issue of
silence and turning a blind eye, and that's the cultural shift.
I think that we, as those of us identify as men,
have to start like just holding the line more and

(53:39):
like you said with your father's examples, like we may
lose relationships, but that's what a real friend does because
we have to hold each other to these standards and
that shit, they're not even high, just like human basic standards.
We shouldn't be violent to women or children, period, point blank.
And I think right now, you know you mentioned about

(54:01):
men having affairs, right, and that's a form of violence
as well, and it's not seen as the same as
maybe a physical violence. But we just have to elevate.
And I wonder, just before we close, your last thoughts
just about this in particular, because I know there's so
many men that do know someone that may be acting

(54:22):
inappropriately or harmful and just don't want to shake or
threaten the relationship or don't know have the words to say.
But what are your thoughts on this, and especially for
those that are dealing with this in real time with
the loved one, a family member, a friend that may
be acting inappropriate.

Speaker 2 (54:42):
Yeah. Well, and I think the hardest part is to
approach that, especially if it's within your family or with
your your own network of friends. But I also think
that it becomes like a thing of loyalty, right, And
to me, those are the things it or not become

(55:03):
kind of false, right, your relationship is really based on
this secret thing that you have. And again, I personally
would feel, you know, let's say you and I were
friends and we you know, hey, we're going to go
to a conference and then I saw you or you
openly brought you know, someone else other than your wife

(55:23):
to Like, now my thing would be like, dude, if
we're like one, I have to go see your wife now,
Like why would you put me in this position?

Speaker 1 (55:34):
Right?

Speaker 2 (55:34):
Like and who are you to be putting me in
this position without like like do you think I'm okay
with this? I'm not okay with this. This isn't cool,
and so you need to figure this out or or
I'm gonna because I can't do this right. And I
think that that's the part where where I think you're like, oh, well,
you know it's Mike, like, we're cool. You know, we

(55:55):
known each other for a long time. Well yeah, but
if we know each other for a night time and
you respect, like, why would you do this to me?
Why would you put me in this position? Right? And
I think in a lot of ways, the normalization of
some of these things in you know, what we used
to call locker room talk and stuff like like, it's
just now I think, you know, especially within you know,

(56:17):
as of late, within the Chicano movement, you have move
head as we're saying, yeah, you know what, it's not
only jacked up behavior of the individual people that are
leaders within the Chicano movement or have leaders in art
or in other things, but now there's a bunch of
other men around them who have been okay with that.
They were okay and they were aware that I was

(56:38):
being abused or they were okay, and and and again,
I know that this is a progression and a growth
for a lot of us, but I think that we
need to accelerate that process because that's what we're being
asked to do. And I think that you know, for me,
that that needs to be normalized. That's not cool, you know,

(57:00):
I think again, it's a lot easier to say that,
but I think that that that it occurs a lot
more than than we were talking about. And I'm talking
about men. This is because because men have kept this
conversation outside of the purview of their spouse and other women.
But there's certain men, I mean, I'll be I'm sure

(57:23):
you do this. There are certain men I interact with
what I try not to interact with. I will never
trust my wife or my kids near them because who
they portray and who I see are two very different people.
And those are not people I'm like I you know,
and and and and. So it's not that we don't know.

(57:43):
We're very aware of that. So part of it is
calling that out and being clear about those things when
we interact with people, even if it is just a
one on one conversation, because at least to make it
clear to people that I'm not you know, I'm not
okay with this, this is not cool.

Speaker 1 (58:03):
And then once you have that conversation, I know, at
least for me, I've I recently had that conversation with somebody.
But then I can continue to say, hey, go to
these resources or do other stuff. But at the end
of the day, we're just responsible, Like you know, this
question of responsibility, What responsibility do I have? Once I
do call it out? And when I do call them

(58:25):
in and say, hey, this is not good with me
or with anybody. You need to get some help. And
if that person doesn't help, then that's the line, right,
like then maybe you're not friends anymore. But that's where
I feel for me personally, is that tension where I'm
trying to figure out, like how to continue to provide
and offer space for healing like this and for folks

(58:46):
to feel like, Okay, I made a mistake. How do
I repair that harm rather than just go silent? But
at the same time, I can't control what that man's
going to do or not do.

Speaker 2 (58:56):
Well, And I think, you know, we do. I don't
want to in a way it as me of addiction.
It's like we enable. It's a type of enabling that
we haven't talked about, right, And I think that there's
you know so, and now we're talking, there's there's a
couple of minutes, there's one man in particular in our
circle that we navigates in and out and it always

(59:19):
is just a very negative thing, and that brings no
good comes of it, so I think people avoid that.
But at the same time, I think people have realized
that they're not going to enable, and I think that
that's the part. It's kind of tested enabling, where people
are kind of looking for kind of approval, and the
approval is not that you said something, it's that you

(59:41):
said nothing. And I think that there's a lot more
of that that I think people are not aware of
that exists within male culture and certainly within Latino and
Chicano culture as well.

Speaker 1 (59:58):
Well, thank you Google. We could go on forever, but
I want to. You know, we end these episodes with
what we call the Sacred five, ask you five questions.
You're answering a word or sentence, and it's just ways
for those hearing or watching to get practical things that
could take. And I just want to keep going on

(01:00:20):
this conversation because I can go forever. But let's let's
get into this. So name three, Name three things that
make you feel safe, connected and whole.

Speaker 2 (01:00:31):
My family, I think is one.

Speaker 3 (01:00:36):
Art.

Speaker 2 (01:00:37):
You know, I always retreat to art when I'm not
feeling well or I need to get connected. And then nature,
at least throughout my house. There's a big oak Tree
that I go hang out with kind of connected too,
So I go and I sit out there or you know,
kind of take off my shoes and just kind of
hang But those are the three things that I think

(01:00:59):
try to root me beautiful.

Speaker 1 (01:01:02):
What song, book or prayer brings you back to yourself?

Speaker 2 (01:01:06):
Uh? Song? You know, it depends on my mood.

Speaker 3 (01:01:13):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (01:01:14):
There's a song called Haunt Me by Share that I
always listen to usually if I'm kind of melancholic. Or
Emmanuel there's a song called Those that I listened to
or kill can sell one of the other an what
it's called, but but I think it's called Those when
I'm feeling kind of more on the melancholic side. Uh,

(01:01:37):
I'm feeling I want to get hyped up. I want
to get ready, like for a presentation or something. H
Houdini five minutes to funk is always a good good Uh.
That's always one Egyptian lover I like. And then the
other one is uh uh King of Rock by n DMC.

(01:01:57):
And that's actually my alarm on my on my phone.

Speaker 1 (01:02:01):
So wow, that's how I want to get up. But
learn you learn things every day in this podcast. Hey man,
that's good.

Speaker 2 (01:02:09):
I grew up in in the in the in the
birth of hip hop, so a lot of that's still there.

Speaker 1 (01:02:14):
Yeah, it is. What's one daily ritual or practice that
grounds you.

Speaker 2 (01:02:22):
You know, I I before I go to bed, I
have a bad abbot I do sometimes I smoke, but
I'll have a smoke in front of that oak tree.
I take off my shoes and I go just hang
out at night. That's pretty much almost every night, that's
what I do. I think that, you know, we talk
a lot about mother Earth and connected to mother Earth.

(01:02:44):
And one day I realized that I had not been barefoot.
I had not really touched mother Earth like in weeks,
like cause we walk around in shoes. I'm in home
and concrete, but to really actually like say, I'm gonna
I'm gonna lay on the ground, I'm gonna take off
my shoes and connect. I hadn't done that. So I
try to do that on a daily basis. Just stick

(01:03:05):
off my shoes and just put my you know, stick
my foot inside the dirt and hang out at least
for about you know, two, three, four or five minutes.
So that's what I try to do most most nights.

Speaker 1 (01:03:17):
That's beautiful. That's a concrete thing that man of all
ages can do.

Speaker 2 (01:03:23):
You would be surprised, like I said, when you start
to think about especially you know, for us, you know,
we're trying to be progressive in the movement and try
to be present, and you realize Mother Earth is important.
And then you realize, like, you know, I haven't really
touched a tree, I haven't touched the ground. I haven't
really in months. And so to be intentional about just

(01:03:45):
putting your foot in the grass, putting your foot in
like just doing that on a daily basis, you'd be
surprised how well how much it helps, and how well
that grounds are great.

Speaker 1 (01:03:55):
Okay, what's one smart action that listeners can take on
their healing journey?

Speaker 2 (01:04:00):
You know, I think that the most. When I began
this work with young people, somebody gave us a bunch
of turkeys one time to give away for Thanksgiving, like
a two or three hundred turkeys or something, which was
a lot of turkeys, and so we got the young
people to help us deliver turkeys. And so we're in

(01:04:21):
the back of this truck delivering turkeys. It's early on
when I started working, and you know, we went to
a lot of the poor communities and we're hanging out
doing turkeys, and you have young people who were gang
involved in different neighborhoods and they're hanging out turkeys and
they handed out all these turkeys. And afterwards we came
back to the office and we're having you know, eating,

(01:04:43):
taking a little break as we're tired, and one of
the guys says, man, I feel high. And that's the
only thing that he could akin to how good of
a feeling it felt to give people to give back.
And I realized that, you know, even for a lot
of people that we work with, a lot of young

(01:05:03):
people that we work with, they're not even afforded the
opportunity to feel that what it is to how good
it feels to give. There's a lot of empowerment in that.
And I think that for a lot of us, even
when we're in our toughest spots, I think that you know,
what helps in that journey to to kind of get

(01:05:24):
to a better place is to realize that you can
you can help people. You know you're you're in a
place sometimes where you know I need help or I
need but to be able to support others or to
help other people, to give something to other people. I
think to me goes a very long way. Again, you know,
being of service to someone, there is probably no better feeling,

(01:05:47):
you know, love maybe, but but but but a lot
of come a lot comes from from being able to
help others, even if it's something small, a dollar or whatever.
You know, whatever you help with somebody. But I would say,
just to incorporate that into your daily kind of practice.

Speaker 1 (01:06:03):
As ball Hooks would say, love is a verb, so
being in services being in love. Then last question, Google,
share one line, blessing or quote that inspires you.

Speaker 2 (01:06:19):
You know, you know. I'll attribute this to Hector. I
did a presentation one time and I didn't think I
did very very well, and it was very hard on myself.
And he walked up and he said, hey, what's up.
You know I could have done better, you know, blah
blah blah. It was very hard on myself. He said,
you know, Google, on your worst day, I'll take you

(01:06:43):
on your worst day than most of these people on
their best day. And I think that we need to
remind ourselves that even when we were hard on ourselves,
that that, you know, when our intentions are good, when
we like like we're better than most people, that are
running around out there who are not thinking about our

(01:07:06):
community and not thinking that. So for me, I just
remind people we're really hard on ourselves when we make mistakes.
When we make mistakes, but but, but but we're better
than most. Even even at that point, if we're that
hard on ourselves, that means that we should really be
thinking about how how good we are where we're intentional.
And so I would say that for me that's always something,

(01:07:29):
especially you know, when when my own mind begins to
to work against me and you start overthinking things, I
just have to remind myself that you.

Speaker 3 (01:07:38):
Know, I'm I'm, I'm I'm worthy of that, and that
I'm that I'm not I'm not as bad as I
think I am.

Speaker 1 (01:07:49):
That's beautiful. Well, usually when I close these google I
always want to reflect back. And the last thing you said,
just really strive such a deep cord that we are
and our worst were better than most, and the fact
that we're even just thinking how could I have done better?

(01:08:11):
I want to just honor, honor your work, your life,
your family, your ancestors, but also the sharpness of your
questions and critiques and analysis. I've always been drawn to
you make me personally a better person because of the

(01:08:35):
The sharp sharpness is not the word I'm looking for,
but just the clarity of conviction and ability to just
see something and name it. And in this work of
gun violence or just healing in general, I hope to
be at your worst because then I'll know I'll be

(01:08:55):
on the right path. And I just want to thank
you because you have reminded me and us about how
it really is access. And I'm not even just talking
access to a firearm. It's access to love, access to resources,
access to just a standard of who we have always been.
That we may be forgotten or colonization stripped from us,

(01:09:18):
but this protocol or mutual understanding that we are all
sacred and therefore we should hold each other to that standard.
And that's not asking for more or less, that's just
asking for the basic. And so I just want to
thank you everyone from the Hope and Heal Fund, because
I don't think we take enough time to just say.
Because of the research, the work, the belief, the investment,

(01:09:42):
that families are stayed like kept together, that another life
is not lost, that folks that may have done harm
are finding pathways to repair, not only the pain inside them,
but the pain that they've caused. And if we can
just focus on that, sitting by a tree, smoking in

(01:10:03):
nice cigar, getting mother nature and ancestors to give us
that knowledge and wisdom we need. I know that we
have a pathway forward, and I'm always inspired because of
the work use. I will Brian everybody in the CBI
sector because it's folks that have lived through the fire
that know how to pour water onto that fire. So

(01:10:23):
I just want to say, from the bab my heart,
thank you so much for what you do.

Speaker 2 (01:10:27):
Thank you for having us appreciate it.

Speaker 1 (01:10:29):
Yeah right cool. Sacred Lessons is a production of My
Heart's Michael through It our podcast network, Sacred Lessons Media,

(01:10:49):
and the Prince Group. For more of your favorite shows,
visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get
your podcasts.