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May 30, 2024 48 mins

In this episode he is joined by Intimacy Expert Dr. Viviana Coles who offers some SHOCKING truths about sex and relationships. 
Can pillow talk actually save your marriage? Which love language appeals to you?
Plus, a foreplay confession from Oliver and what he considers 'chore porn!'  

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Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):

Speaker 2 (00:05):
I am Kate Hudson and my name is Oliver Hudson.

Speaker 1 (00:08):
We wanted to do something that highlighted our.

Speaker 2 (00:11):
Relationship and what it's like to be siblings. We are
a sibling. Railvalry. No, no, sibling.

Speaker 1 (00:25):
You don't do that with your mouth.

Speaker 2 (00:30):
Revelry. That's good, alright. I just finished a meditation because
that's what I'm doing now, finding wellness in my life
for about two weeks, and then I'll go away. That
seems to be my pattern. You know, hit the health

shit hard for a minute, feel pretty good about yourself.
Look in the mirror, Oh you look pretty good. Yeah,
look inside your brain. Oh yeah, look I'm feeling kind
of good. And then okay, I guess I'm done. Consistency
is the key, and that's what I need to sort
of focus on. But yeah, I did a I did

a meditation. You know what. I listened to Sam Harris,
who I love. He has He has a podcast. I mean,
he's big time. He has an app called Waking Up
that I love. Great for meditation, even though I've been
doing it for a minute or you know, understand kind
of the parameters of meditation and how to do it,

he still has this intro to meditation that takes you
through each day. It's like ten minutes and it's guided
and even if you've been meditating for a minute, it's
nice to listen to. It's kind of great. So, yeah,
I did my meditation, tried to stop my mind from wandering,
tried to stop thinking about the day and all the shit,

you know, and all the issues. Anyway, I ramble, I rant,
but on a lighter topic, intimacy and sex. We have
Vivanna Cole's doctor Ravana Coles here is an intimacy expert
and she's in our waiting room right now. But I'm

excited because you know, I have to say I'm excited
about everything. It's kind of like the He's like, oh,
I'm excited to talk to this person on person. But
I will say that I am to be straight up,
I'd say seventy five percent of the time eighty percent,
like really excited to talk to the guests because of

what I might be able to learn. And actually I
was going to bed last night thinking about the podcast
and how cool it is not just because you know,
you make a little scratch, make a little money, you
get paid, and it's always fun to talk to people.
I love of being conversational, but also because of the
shit that I learn, you know, I mean the things

that I learned about myself. I mean, I meditated today
and wrote a whole list in my calendar of how
my day is going to be mapped out because of
because of an interview I did yesterday. You know about manifestation,
about how to sort of create and what are the steps.
So I'm always excited to talk to some of these
experts because I know that I'm going to learn something

about myself too. And if you listen to this show,
you know, I inject my own shit into everything that
I talk about. But intimacy is definitely an extremely personal, interesting,
relatable topic for me, and I'm sure for a lot
of people, especially for a man. You know, what vulnerability

looks like, how to be vulnerable, what intimacy looks like,
all of the different sort of aspects of intimacy, sex,
all of it. So let's get into it. Let's talk
Let's talk about sex. Let's talk about sex. Baby, Let's
talk about O. L I E. That's my name, all right,
let's let's bring it on there.

Speaker 1 (04:12):
She is right.

Speaker 2 (04:14):
Well, I'm so happy you're here. I'm so happy to
talk to you. You know, I have dealt with my
own ship as far as intimacy vulnerability goes. I have
learned a lot sort of about myself and how understanding
what intimacy means to me, what vulnerability means to me,
and how that sort of has affected both good and bad, honestly,

my relationships, not just with you know, my wife, but
you know, with the people around me. You know, as
a man, I feel like it was hard for me
to be vulnerable, to express myself for fear of judgment
or not feeling man enough or whatever all of the
all that bullshit is. But how did did you get

into all this? First of all? And let's just get
rolling because it's gonna get nuts. You don't really know.
You don't know me yet, but you will.

Speaker 1 (05:09):
And I know a little too much about you. I've
listened to some of these podcasts.

Speaker 2 (05:14):
I think.

Speaker 1 (05:16):
I think there might be a little bit too much information,
especially wedging off the intro to Teddy's.

Speaker 2 (05:23):
Uh part one. That's right, that's right.

Speaker 1 (05:28):
It's awesome that Teddy's been on here because we've run
into each other in LA and she's you know, she's
a big fan of my book as well, and I'm
just like so thrilled. And then when I started hearing
what you all were talking about, I was like, oh, okay, yeah,
y'all know each other differently.

Speaker 2 (05:45):

Speaker 1 (05:46):
I've always just been a big fan of love. At first,
it was just, you know, kind of like the sense
of romanticism. I come from a lot of really good
examples of long term, what seemed to be at least healthy,
happy relationships, and it became pretty clear early on that

that was something that was a real big goal of mine.
I was just actually talking to my brother this morning,
and they're celebrating twenty two years married. My parents will
be celebrating fifty years married. I'll be celebrating seventeen years
married this year. So I really have come from a
lot of people who believe in marriage, and who believe
in fighting for a really tough marriage and for a

really great marriage. But it's it really did start to
come into my life as a career when I knew
I wanted to talk for a living. I love talking.
I just do. I love talking about anything. And when
I spoke to one of my earlier advisors, you know,
college advisors, I said, I want to talk for a living.

She's like, what do you want to talk about? I said,
I want to talk to people about what I'm like, Well,
they're always talking to you about their problems. Even early on,
you know, I was one of the few at an
all girls school who had like a boyfriend, and you know,
so people were always wanting to get into my business
and I'm like, sure, I'll tell you what's going on. Yeah,
and so it's it's always been a big part of
my life. But then I realized, Wow, the impact that

a healthy marriage or even just a healthy, long term,
committed relationship has on everything around you is so vast.
It really does impact everything. I want to be a
part of that. I want to be a part of
helping couples to stay connected in all ways as far
as intimacy, especially emotional and physical. And if I can

do that, then I feel like I'm in a good mission.
It's also really rewarding. You know, I'm a certified sex theravist.
I'm a relationship and sex service so I just I
find that it's never the same.

Speaker 2 (07:49):
Well, that's what's so interesting is everyone has, you know,
completely different issues. Obviously enough, it's relatable. I mean, there's
no doubt about it. There are you know, probably a
set of few that people can very much so relate to,
you know, but everyone is so different and what they
want and what makes them happy and you know, what

gives them pleasure emotionally physically, and how those things match
up within a relationship and if they don't, then how
to sort of navigate that. I mean, typically with the
Love Languages, you know, which we had him on actually,
which was It's just it's so awesome. I mean, it's
so fucking real. You know, that shit is so real.

Speaker 1 (08:37):
That's the first episode that I heard of y'all's I
Love the Five Love Languages. I Am just it's almost
like doctor Gary Chapman's kind of a bit of a
rock star right in my world. And what he's done
with a book that came out in nineteen ninety two.
To me, I was like, this has really revolutionized the
way that couples can talk and not just couples. Everyone

can talk about love. But I always got the question,
but what about sex? Yeah? That was who was coming
to me? But what about sex? Because we know we
love each other, we know how to express our emotional
sides and how to relate and connect and the emotional
intimacy side, but what about the physical? And that was

the part that I said, you know what, after years
of having to respond to that, I'm going to write
a book about it, and of the pandemic provided some
opportunities for really being able to buckle down, and so
I was able to do it then. But it was,
you know, it's been, it's been amazing. I was so
thrilled to hear from your team that you were interested
in it as well, because you know, I'm professionally self
published and we're not used to. Like I'm always fascinated

when people and how people find out about the book.
So I'm glad that you've heard about it too. But
I mean, ideally, in twenty years, the four intimacy styles
will have a little bit of what the five Love
languages has done. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (09:55):
No, I mean I love that. I think that's so smart,
by the way, you know, because I mean I imagine
it's different when you're getting physical, you know. But what
it did for my relationship was just sort of acknowledge
the way that we like to be loved and then

having to sort of switch the way that we love
because it's not always the same. You know, I'm very
physical touch and my wife is acts of service, right,
So you know, if I'm washing the dishes and I'm
taking out the trash and I am like working around
the house and I am doing things, it's that's how

she feels love, you know, And that's how I get late.

Speaker 1 (10:41):
But she feels supported, and that's how she feels like
the two of you are on the same team, which
I'm constantly like in my private practice, That's what I'm
really always trying to help couple to remember, especially when
they've been arguing and fighting and disagreeing so much, it's
like you're on the same team.

Speaker 2 (10:56):
M hm, yeah, one hundred percent. And then mine is
a physical touch much where you know I would I
would be doing something and I feel her pass by
behind me, and I'm like, is she going to touch me?
Is she going to touch me? Oh? She didn't touch me,
And and you have to learn how to sort of
be that for the other person. You know, even though
she doesn't need physical touch because she had enough of

it in her childhood or however you want to sort
of psychologically place it. You know, she doesn't need it,
so she doesn't give it you know, for me acts
of service like it doesn't do anything for me, Like
I'm like, oh cool, Yeah, that's awesome. Thanks, But that's
not you know the way that I even.

Speaker 1 (11:35):
Hit the spot.

Speaker 2 (11:36):

Speaker 1 (11:37):
When it comes to all things physical intimacy, it's even
more diverse, and it's even actually more difficult to talk
about because it's not as if you can find out, hey,
this is someone's intimacy style. Now I'm going to do that.
You can't write intimacy style because you experience something totally different.

They need to be able, and in my professional opinion,
they need to be able to experience all four of
the intimacy styles in nearly all our every sexual experience
in order to really be able to feel connected long term.
You can't be without one or the other, and you
need to have them all, which is, you know, something
that differentiates it from the.

Speaker 2 (12:18):
Five love languages one hundred percent and by the way,
relating sort of the love languages or that emotional sort
of love and then translating into the physical. I will
say that when I am providing acts of service, like
more times than not, it's going to lead to getting
laid because I'll be doing the dishes or I'll be

doing something and she comes up like babe, like what ying? Yeah,
like you know, I mean, it's it's amazing the way
that that works.

Speaker 1 (12:50):
The chore porn.

Speaker 2 (12:51):
There, But explain, explain the you know, the what do
you how do you call the four intimacy intimacy style? Okay,
so let's let's let's go through all four funk and
let everyone know it's up.

Speaker 1 (13:06):
Yeah. The first of the four intimacy styles is bonding
and these are in no particular order, so just you know,
there's no like hierarchy here, it's bonding. And this is
people who are of the bonding style will seek out
physical intimacy in order to experience more emotional intimacy. They

need to feel physically connected through sexuality with their partner
in order to feel like they're actually connected. So it's
very very important to them. And duty sex. No, they're
not gonna they're not okay with that, Like that's a
big no. No. Then we have release, and these are
the people who really prioritize that physiological release of tension.

They want the ecstasy, they want all the pleasure. They're
really prioritizing the physiological effects and euphoric feelings that happen
during sex and we have giving. These are the people
who it's all about the other person. They feel that like, wow,
all is right in the world if I'm able to
give you that big oh, all is right in the world.

If you are associating pleasure with me and then we
have responsive. Responsive is probably the least understood but maybe
the most common, and that's when someone doesn't have internal,
necessarily like internal urges for sex. It's always in response
to their partner saying, hey, you want to get frisky, Hey,

let's go upstairs whatever. Then they're like, oh, yeah, yea, yeah, okay,
but they're not necessarily experiencing that outside of a relationship
of course human so they have sexual urges, but they
don't necessarily seek out partner experiences, and that can be
one of the most difficult to be understood because for

a lot of them, they're thinking, I just have low
desire for sex. It's not that they have low desire
for sex. They don't have it on the brain as
often as everybody else. They love it. When they do,
they usually have really intense experiences. It's just in between
those experiences, it's not on the brain.

Speaker 2 (15:21):
Are we one or the other, or like you said,
are we encompass all of those? Yeah?

Speaker 1 (15:27):
So, Actually, I have a quiz in the book and
online that you can take for free. It's the for
Intimacy Styles quiz dot com and it'll give you the
percentage of each that you currently are and what you
want to do is try to experience twenty five percent
of each, so you're rounding out your intimacy style in
order to be at your best when you're partnered with someone,

because when two people who are both rounded out come together,
they tend to feel satisfied, fulfilled for the long term. Yes,
of course, if you're just hooking up with someone and
you want to be all released, go for it. If
you're all about giving in that moment. If you're like, ah,
it's just this one time, then you can do whatever.
But if you're looking for long term connection, and the

truth is, we all need to be prioritizing our physical intimacy.
I believe it is the number one reason that people
end up leaving long term relationships is because it dies
and so important for people to know that I am.
In the book, of course, I talk about this at length,
but so many people will leave a relationship and their

partner will never know that it was because of sex,
because in our society we still think that that's too shallow.
But what about everything else? If you're not satisfied sexually
and you don't have any hope that it's going to be,
you should either you get help but no help after
that or no hope after that. I would prefer that

they leave because guess what happens when you're dissatisfied in
your long term relationship.

Speaker 2 (16:55):
And you're fine.

Speaker 1 (16:58):
Or be miserable by yourself.

Speaker 2 (17:01):
I'm miserable. Yeah, no, I couldn't agree more. I mean,
I preach this, you know when we have these conversations
amongst friends and other people, you know, about relationships. If
you don't have sex, and if you don't have a
healthy sex life, then what.

Speaker 1 (17:20):
Do you friends?

Speaker 2 (17:21):
You're just friends, That's what I say. I said, like
I could just you know, raise my children with my
best friend. It would be great. I mean, it'd probably
be fun, you know. But if you don't have that connection,
if you don't have that sexual chemistry, that connection, then
a relationship to me is over.

Speaker 1 (17:36):
You mentioned that you do things to kind of help
create more of an opportunity so, of course as a
sex therapist, I get people who are like, okay, so
you just want people to have sex. I'm like, no, no, no,
I want people to want to have sex. That's a
very different thing. Most healthy people can have sex, but
when it's truly satisfying, fulfilling, and is serving the purpose

of bonding and connect you in this you know, crazy
life that's always trying to keep us away from each other,
it serves a purpose that's much greater than just the
physiological act of having sex. And one of the things
that you've mentioned that is kind of coming up on
my radar more generally, not just in my practice, is
this idea of having an underlying current of sensuality in

your relationship that you can tap in and out of
right And a lot of people feel like they're just
flipping a switch. You're either having sex or you're not,
and they're going cold to hot. And it is something
that everyone will be like, oh, yeah, I've been there
where it just feels like where is this coming from?
Like we were just changing a diaper, we were just

like outside, you know, doing the art, and you're like,
are you corny right now? And so what I'm trying
to help people to understand now is that the term
that I use for that is pillow talk. You need
to have pillow talk in your relationship outside of the bedroom,
outside of an actual sexual experience. It's so important for

you to show that you're interested in your partner, that
you're interested in sex with your partner, and of course
vice versa, in order to make sense of having sex,
make sense of having sex in your relationship by doing
the pillow talk. And fortunately I'm I've got my act together.
It's been a long road, but I'm going to be

sharing a free masterclass online for everyone who's interested in
making sure that they're living a relationship where it makes
sense that sex happens. It's going to be up a
part of my website. So if you go to pillow
talkmasterclass dot com to register June tenth at twelve thirty Central,
that's going to be an opportunity. It's the only time

that I'll be offering any of this for frees. Don't
get there, but yeah, it really is for anyone who's
interested in making sure that they know how to keep
that spark alive. I'm sure, Oliver, you've heard lots of
people who are like, why do we keep this spark?
How do we keep this? I mean I get that
question at least like ten times a month, and this
is how you do it, and I got it from

living it. My husband and I like, we do a
lot of pillow talk, a lot of pillow talk, and
I feel like it has made the biggest difference in
our connection outside of the bedroom, because because in the
bedroom there's all sorts of fun things that can be
going on, and it's very focused on sex. But outside
of that, how do we know that we want each
other without like necessarily always having sex.

Speaker 2 (20:31):
No, No, I mean I think it's it's awesome. And
by the way, you know, pillow talk is personal, meaning
it's different for everybody. You know. It can be gnarly
and dirty and nasty. It can be you know, sensual,
It can be sort of again, just telling someone how

much you love them and appreciate them, or showing them,
showing them I'm saying, I'm just I'm for whatever reason,
picturing like texting, but yes, absolutely, and sometimes words are
easier for people typing and using sort of you know,
a computer or a phone than it is to sort

of say them out loud. To someone's face. And I
only know that because that is me.

Speaker 1 (21:20):
You know.

Speaker 2 (21:20):
I've worked on that part of being more vulnerable and
having the ability without feeling shy or that I'm going
to be judged or somehow left psychologically, because it all
your psychology all plays into your sexuality too, I believe

you know. I mean, from how you grew up to
your relationship with women or men.

Speaker 1 (21:48):
The messages that you got about sex or did not
get any messages.

Speaker 2 (21:52):
About one hundred percent. Yeah, yeah, So you know, for me,
it's always been much easier to write than it is
to sort of say in person. And I've been sort
of working on that and I couldn't agree more.

Speaker 1 (22:08):
Pillar talk. We have to work on getting you to
a better place than that.

Speaker 2 (22:11):
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, no, for sure. I mean, so
I did this. I'll comes up every fucking episode on
my podcast, but I did this program called the Hoffmann Institute,
and it was amazing, and without getting into the whole
thing because everyone's heard it a million times, it's just
dealing with childhood patterns, you know, and how they've affected
your life. I came out of this week long course

just so open, so comfortable with my vulnerability. I'm afraid
to express how I feel to my wife to everyone
around me, you know, and as men, there's this sort
of idea, as you said, that we need to have
sex to feel connected, and that women need to feel

connected to have sex. That is the stereotype, okay, and
I live that stereotype. I did. If we went a
week or two without having sex, there's some shit happens
where you all of a sudden have resentment that you
don't understand, and it gets kind of contentious a little.
The minute that I was able to be vulnerable, truly
vulnerable as a man, especially, our sex life blossomed even

more so. Our sex life has always been good, but
it deepened to where it was unbelievable. I mean, the
physical was always there, but once I was able to
sort of really become a vulnerable person to her and
express myself to her and how I felt about her,
it allowed her to let go as well, and all

of a sudden, shit just went crazy. And I'm not
talking about you know, like soft core sort of nice music,
like it can get just as gnarly and dirty and
graphic as you want, and that vulnerability allows that to
be as comfortable as it's ever been.

Speaker 1 (24:00):
People don't have the language for that, and they don't
necessarily have the means or time or even know how
to go to an institute like that. But that's what
I've been talking about in the four intimacy styles, is
that people your partner needs to and deserves to understand
your why why is sex important to you? It's not
just well, you know, I always ask people, of course,

in my office, I'm like, so, why is sex important
to you? Why are you here? Why do you want
to work on it? And inevitably they say, well, because
we're supposed to, because we're together, And I'm like, it's
what makes you stand out as more than just friends.
You can do really anything else but sex. If you're
a monogamous relationship with anyone else, other people, if your

doctors can see you naked, you can say I love
you to the kids. You can kiss your dogs and
the head, you know, get a massage from a stranger. Like,
there's so many things that you can do, but this
is that thing that if you're of course in a
monogamous relationship, it's just the two of you, it's what
it really It does make it sacred. You can be
a therapist with your best friend. But this is that thing.

But there's so much more to it than that. And
that's why I think it's so important for people to
really understand how the four intimacy styles can play out
and really help enhance all of it. All the physical
for sure.

Speaker 2 (25:19):
What if you love? What if you're in love. You're
in love with someone and you've been together for twenty
years and you guys were hot as shit back in
the day, And what happens when the attraction goes away?

Speaker 1 (25:34):

Speaker 2 (25:34):
You know, because that's life. You know that shit happens
and we change and what happens when it's all But
I'm just not attracted to you anymore. And I love
you and I love everything you are, but I just
don't feel like having sex with you because I'm not attracted.
Can you get past something like that?

Speaker 1 (25:51):
Yeah? This is my whole world. This is my career,
is helping people to transition from that hot and heavy
new relationship energy passionate your brain is like on drugs,
feeling into something that's more long term and lasting. So
many people don't even know that the passion will neurologically
kind of die out in you know, No, it will

not last longer than two years, I mean for sure,
and for most people, especially nowadays, it's more like ten
months maybe if you're lucky. So a lot of people
get kind of slapped in the face by it, and
inevitably they'll either become serial relationship people or they'll just
think like, okay, so this is it, Like what how
are people saying different? So making them aware that that's

even a thing that they need to be watching out for.
But that's where that pillowtop comes in the way that
you share that your interest in sex and interest in
sex with their partner will keep you from going into
that like bed death place, and it will also help
you to get to a place where you say I'm
not I'm not like as interested in the other shiny

objects around me. My partner and I like we got
something going on.

Speaker 2 (27:06):

Speaker 1 (27:06):
That's the thing. A lot of people are like, well,
I'm not into PDA. Well I'm not talking about you know,
mugging down, Like I don't think say that anymore. But whatever,
It's not about becoming graphic or saying raunchy jokes in
front of it. It's like it should be a language
between the two of you and that's what I'm going

to teach people, is like how this looks. And I
do think that there are better ways to pillow talk
than others. And it's not just well, you know, say
this or yeah.

Speaker 2 (27:41):
There's no universal way. I mean everyone universal way.

Speaker 1 (27:44):
But there are better ways that will that will actually
help if you do them, versus being somebody who maybe
doesn't talk or do anything and then just thinking, well,
my partner knows because I have sex with Like, we're
still having sex once a week or once a month
or whenever. So we're fine, No, you're not. That's not enough.
Sex isn't enough.

Speaker 2 (28:14):
So our sex life has always been really good. But
sometimes it's hard to communicate verbally right, And I know
that that's the number one way to sort of communicate,
right is like, oh, pillow talk, it's talk, it's using
your mouth. Right. Some people aren't as comfortable saying the
things that they might feel because it feels embarrassing to them,

you know, So how do you get past something like that,
you know, where it's like, oh, I want to say that,
but I'm just like, shit out, that's embarrassing. How's that
going to come out of my mouth?

Speaker 1 (28:51):
Well? I think what ends up happening to a lot
of people is that they say it and they joke
and that doesn't feel very seductive. And then for other people,
they say it as a joke and they just like
they make it a running joke. But even just the joke,
even just that haha moment, it's still something that means something.
It does land it is pilotop because I'm not talking

about like seduction for ford play. I think about every
day life, you know, whether it's a pot on the
backside or not, you know, or laughing at a funny
meme about sex or something like. It's all of that
that a lot of people who aren't necessarily and very
good don't have very good sex lives. They shun it,

They keep it out because they're worried that it's either
going to make them feel uncomfortable or make them seem like, well,
that's not my style, Like I don't do that, or
I don't want people to know about my sex life
or think about me, or you know, like it's almost
like they're giving away too much. They're showing too much
of the private in public. But I'm talking about like

they won't even do that when it's just them on
a date night because they're thinking, well, that's not that's
not prim and proper, or or I don't want to
give them the wrong idea, or you know, like, oh,
I know every single time I kiss my husband, he's
always trying to like grab my button, my boobs, and
you know, like people think about that and then they say, well,
guess what, I don't want to kiss my husband anymore.

Speaker 2 (30:18):

Speaker 1 (30:19):
And that's another thing is you know, this is all
very it's very real, like and the problems that come
about it are very real. So it's important for people
to understand what's going on and kind of assess where
is the issue here? Is it that every single time
I kiss my husband he always wants more? Is it
every single time that I, you know, pat my my

wife on the butt, she's like, gosh, get away from me,
you know, and it's like rejection, Like what is it?
Or is it the let me send you a sweet
text and you send me, you know, eggplant squirt?

Speaker 2 (30:52):
You know, like.

Speaker 1 (30:54):
Right there, and everybody's as different. Everybody's told it is different,
but it needs to be happening. It's just needs to
be happening in the right way.

Speaker 2 (31:01):
What do you how what have you found in sort
of your practice is the most sort of common a
common issue that you get, you know, it's like, yeah,
that's that's number.

Speaker 1 (31:13):
One, I'll say. Generally in a heteronormative relationship, it's usually
that the men are able to tap into that sexual
undercurrent so much faster and easier than women. A lot
of the women feel like they're going from cold to hot.
They feel like it's something to check off their list.

They don't even really prioritize their own desires. They're not
like thinking about sex. Men are so good about letting
sexual thoughts in and kind of simmer and then go away.
Women are more like, I'm, you know, at the park
with my kids, I can't have a sexual thought or ooh,
I'm reading a sexual novel. Well this needs to be
alone in bed or in the tub. There's just kind

of this sense of sex belongs here, it does not
belong here. And men are really good about just like
allowing those things to happen. And I'm convinced that that's
why they seem to have a higher level of desire
for sex, is because it's on their brains. But that's
the number one thing is that I usually have a
desire discrepancy in a couple, and they're trying to figure out, like,
how do we get to a more similar place. It

doesn't have to be right here, but where it's more functional.

Speaker 2 (32:22):
And what about do you have you studied? You get
into sort of just the primal nature of sex, and
you know, just the pro creating aspect of it, the
unconscious brain essentially, and how we operate sexually aside from
any social sort of pressures or things that have been

put upon us from societal a societal standpoint, I.

Speaker 1 (32:48):
Think it's very unusual for people to feel similarly in
that regard, and so it can become more of a
problem than anything. I think the minute we start talking
about like unconscious urges or desires or things that are
very primal, we kind of get into this weird consent

non consent, you know, duty, obligation, expectation, and that can
be very unsexy. So for a lot of people, it
really is just figuring out, okay, what works for the
two of you. Who are you sexually? Who are you sexually?
Let's figure out if we can bring those two people
together in a satisfying, conscious, like very consensual way.

Speaker 2 (33:32):
Are we a monogamous species.

Speaker 1 (33:36):
Oh my gosh, I don't think so.

Speaker 2 (33:39):
It has to be enough.

Speaker 1 (33:41):
I mean, I don't think so, because I see a
lot of the people that come in as well, like
probably my a third of my clients, if not more,
are coming in for a fair recovery. It's just so
common and I and that's why I'm always like, Okay, well,
let's work on the pillowtop, let's work on the four intimacies,
let's work on communication, let's work on all of these

things to see if we can avoid that, because it's
I don't think it's usual or typical or normal to
betray someone in lie to them that like, that's not
ever going to be okay. But those feelings of wanting
something different, I think are very human. And that's why
I think it's so important too, if you're going into

something that is monogamous, that you do everything within your
power to learn how to be monogamous, because it's not
going to be easy.

Speaker 2 (34:29):
It's just not I know, do you think that we
need to be more accepting of the fact that we
are maybe not a monogamous species, and you know, to
be a little more gentle and forgiving. I'm saying if
it moves beyond you know, just that sexual desire and

into a problem, you know what I mean, where it's
I'm no longer in love with you, I want to
I just I can't want to live you with anymore.
Or if it's just look this happened, I made a mistake.
I'm still in love with you. Let's work through it.
Because I feel like a lot of the times today
with infidelity and other relationship issues, people are so quick

to just throw it all away rather than look at
the whole relationship as a whole and look at the
human as a whole and say, oh, well we are good.
This is good, he's amazing, she's amazing. This thing happened.
Let's get to the root of why it happened. Yes,
instead of just saying, oh, you know what, fuck you,

I'm gone. You know.

Speaker 1 (35:36):
Well, okay, so there's a lot to unpack with that,
but I'll tell you because this is something that I
work with every day. First of all, seventy percent of
couples who go through in fidelity do end up staying together. Now,
of the couples that stay together, I would say the
people who have gone to therapy and couples therapy to
work through that a fair recovery, are probably going to

stay together forever. I know that in my practice people
who come to see me. I would say ninety percent
of the couples who have lived through and recovered from
an affair tend to do really well for the long
term because now it's like everything's laid out. It's almost
like you're having exploratory surgery, right Like you get to

see what's going on and say, Okay, that's a problem,
that's a problem. That's great. But a lot of people
don't do that until a bomb goes off in their relationship,
like a partner betrayal, and that's not fair. I feel
like for so many people, they need to be conscious
of the fact that I never tell people you should
trust your partner one hundred percent. That makes no sense

in the world that we live in now. That doesn't
mean you need to be treating them as if you
only trust them ten percent, but you need to be
conscious of the fact that you're a human, they're a human.
And we don't live in small little communities anymore, and
we're bombarded by things that are literally created to take

our attention away from our partners. That's what so to
be able to say, maybe we should explore consensual non
monogamy and open our relationship, but we need to do
it with help, which is a lot of people come
to me for that too, because they don't even know
what they don't know, they don't even know how to
be and it's so dangerous to just say, let's open

up our relationship.

Speaker 2 (37:22):
Oh gosh. Yeah, I mean, I mean.

Speaker 1 (37:25):
There's a lot to that, and I feel like we
could talk about that for days because it's such a
hot topic. And I think for a lot of people,
it's a hot topic because they want to know how
to prevent that. You know, a fair prevention is something
that I'm always talking about online and I feel like
with my clients, Okay, so now that you've been through this,
how can we prevent this from happening again. Well, A

big part of that is feeling emotionally and physically connected.

Speaker 2 (37:49):
Mm hmmmm. Oh yeah. And what about sexual addiction? Do
you deal with that a lot? I mean, how much
are you seeing of sexual.

Speaker 1 (38:01):
It's a very small part of the people who come
in who are experiencing what they would sit they would
call sexual addiction. Oftentimes, I'll have people who have compulsive
sexual behaviors that we need to kind of go through.
It's very difficult for me to diagnose anybody with sex addiction,
just because, of course it's so different from person to person,

from relationship to relationship. And I also think that that
diagnosis and that label can exacerbate problems. It doesn't often
help as much some people it does, but you know,
just like with anything else, labeling somebody, it carries a
lot of weight. So if they come in with that
and say this is what I know to be true, great,

let's use that speak. But otherwise it's more about let's
tease out the different behaviors that you find very dysfunctional
or very undesirable or really chaotic in your life, and
let's take those and put them off to the side
and study them. Because as a systemic therapist, I don't

believe that problems lie within us. I think they lie
between us and the issue. And if you can really
work on that, just like with any other relationship, and
see it as a relationship, it's either healthy or unhealthy
and there's work there. But if it's within you, then
that's when you get self loathing, that's when you get
low self esteem. That's when you feel like you're unworthy

of love and I just.

Speaker 2 (39:31):
Don't believe mm hmm, yeah, no, I know, yeah, No,
it's it's it's it's it's interesting because it you know,
you go through this idea of like, well, what is it?
What is sex addiction exactly? And it feels different than
I guess alcoholism or different kinds of addiction. There's seems
to be levels of it, which you know, I think

there are other addictions as well. There's levels of it.

Speaker 1 (39:56):
Because you can abstain from alcohol that you can't abstain
from food or sex.

Speaker 2 (40:00):
Right right, No, I know if it starts to sort
of become detrimental to your life, you know, one way
or another.

Speaker 1 (40:08):
Well, and for your viewers, a really great kind of
long held authority in the field is doctor Patrick Carnes,
and he has a really great list. It's almost like
a quiz or some sort of an assessment that you
can do on your own. Of course, it's not like
a clinical assession. But if you're ever like wondering what

does being addicted to sex like mean or look like,
it's a good resource.

Speaker 2 (40:35):
It's just yeah, that's that's good to know, Okay, so
you've been married for eighteen years? Is that? Is that correct?

Speaker 1 (40:41):
Not to be seventeen?

Speaker 2 (40:42):
Yeah, seventeen? Okay, I think I'm eighteen in June. I
think I'm eighteen.

Speaker 1 (40:46):
Oh, seventeen in July.

Speaker 2 (40:47):
Yeah, oh cool. So you obviously had a long, extended
monogamous sex life, right, and you are a queen, you
are a professional at all this, and how do you
how does this work within your relationship when shit is
going a little south or whatever? And does your husband

look to you as the professional? I have three of them.
It's your husband like, honey, honey, honey, tell me what
to do, Tell me what to do. You're the pro.
What's going on?

Speaker 1 (41:17):
Yeah, so my husband gets that question a lot. What's
it like being married to a sex therapi? Yeah, yeah,
he's like, the truth is, we're just like every other couple,
but we see things from a mile away and deal
with them. Now. That's the difference. We don't let things,
you know, fester even for an hour. We're those people
who like, Okay, we have to deal with this now.

We can't just like go into that silent mode. And
that goes with sex too. I mean being a woman
having had two kids, like We've gone through times where
there was definitely, like on paper, a drought, but the
pillow talk was always there and bringing up like, hey,
I recognize that it's been a couple of weeks, or

but let me tell you this is what's going on
for me, or him saying I'm feeling super disconnected from
you because we haven't had intercourse or because we haven't
done anything sexual in like three weeks, or I remember
at one time it must have been at least a
couple months. I mean, we were doing things, but it
wasn't there was an intercourse, and for a lot of people,
if there is an intercourse, then it doesn't count. That's

not necessarily a pace for us.

Speaker 2 (42:24):
But you can.

Speaker 1 (42:25):
Quantify that, right, you can be like day one, day two,
day three, ye you know. And so he's really good
at pinpointing. Also times when he's like, I think we
need to have sex, and I'm like, I think you're right.

Speaker 2 (42:39):
Well, there's so much psychology that it gets wrapped up
in all of this, you know. And I'm only speaking
just from my own experience of sort of what it
feels like to finally have that moment after it's been
a minute, and what that not just the physical release
is but just that ugh, like I'm there now, I

can think a little bit better, I feel connected to
you now, or when it's not happening. Based on my psychology,
which is different from anyone else, is it's like, oh,
you're not feeling me. Yeah, okay, obviously you're not feeling me,
which is total bullshit, but that's my own stuff.

Speaker 1 (43:16):
It doesn't just hurt. It's like it's like this this
feeling of like I'm lost, I don't I don't like this.
It's not just it's it does seep so much into
like your feelings of experiencing your highs. You know, like
I can tell people I work with really high power

and high profile people and if things aren't going well
at home, those awards, those deals, those I mean, all
of that, it's like they just fall flat. So everybody
experiences that to a different degree, but it can be
helped through relationship therapy. I'm just a huge fan of

get that. Help invest in yourself, invest in your future.
You have so much history behind you. For a lot
of these long term couples, they have so much history
they don't necessarily need to throw it away, or at
least get to a place where you can say we
tried and tried. Yeah, give me like three to six months,

you'll know something.

Speaker 2 (44:20):
And do you dig into their whole you know why,
the sort of root cause of why some of these
things are happening or why they can't communicate and sort
of you know, pairing that with pillow talk as well.
Once you can understand your own psychology or your partner's
psychology as to why, that pillow talk can then be curated. Essentially,

because so.

Speaker 1 (44:45):
I have my doctor in marriage and family therapy, and
because I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, I'm allowed
to do that. Coaches are not allowed.

Speaker 2 (44:52):
To do that.

Speaker 1 (44:53):
They cannot go into the past or into the you know,
like the origins. They're very future oriented, which can be
very helpful. But I find that when you're talking about
two people, it's like, especially like you're talking about all
this psychology you know, and I have I'm able to
do that, and I absolutely do. I think it's so
important to not just know the what, but the why.

Speaker 2 (45:15):
Yeah, I'm gonna let you go, but I've got I
got I got one thing i gotta say which has
been amazing for us, and it wasn't even too. It
wasn't even to kickstart anything, but it just created for
play without having to do it on your own. So
we took games. Okay, we took Yazi, we took Jenga.

Yatzi was the first one. We called it Sexual Yatzi.
We literally did this on our fucking honeymoon. Where you know,
if you know Yazi, you write in you know, your
scores and whatever it is. Once you roll the dice
instead of putting the putting like numbers, and you put
sort of a sexual act that you would like done
to yourself or that you that that you want to

do to them, and so it can be as graphic
or as sort of as sort of simple as you
want it to be. So you're creating this for play
through a game that is so fun because if you
roll like three of a Kind and you're like, I'm
going to take three of a kind, you read it
and it says like, you know, go down on you

for thirty seconds, and like, okay, here we go, thirty
seconds done. You know, then you got to come back up.

Speaker 1 (46:26):
I'm a big fan of games, and I'm actually developing
an intimacy game, so I'm absolutely going to send one
your way when it's ready to go.

Speaker 2 (46:33):
Oh yeah, yeah, for sure, I love this stuff. And
then we took Jenga, you know, Djengo, or you pull
the bricks out, you write your little fantasies or whatever
you wanted to done to you on the bricks. So
you pull it out and it's like ooh, you know.

Speaker 1 (46:44):
And there's no question you have to do it.

Speaker 2 (46:46):
You have to do it. And sometimes it's like, you know,
really sort of you know, sensual, and sometimes it's like,
you know, like you're actually having penetration for thirty seconds,
but you have to stop. So it builds it up
to this point where eventually you just can't take it
anymore and then boom, you're off to the races. And

I've always sort of given that little piece of advice
or what we have done to couples of friends of
ours who sex life is kind of like I'm like,
just try that one night, drink a bottle of wine
and try that.

Speaker 1 (47:19):
Yeah. Absolutely well. I'm hoping to see you and your
wife at my pillow Talk June tenth Master Class three.
It's online on Monday, June tenth at twelve thirty Central.
You can go ahead and register at pillow talkmasterclass dot
com and follow me at doctor Viviana spell at the
Doctor and hopefully I'll see you all then because I

really want to help you connect and I think this
is the way to do it.

Speaker 2 (47:42):
Great, perfect, Thank you so much. This was so fun.
I appreciate your time, all right, and.

Speaker 1 (47:48):
Your whole family. Thank you so much for having me.
I really appreciate it.

Speaker 2 (47:51):
Of course, of course we'll talk to all right. She
was great. I mean, you know, dedicating your life to sex.
I mean that's kind of double edged sword, you know
what I mean, it's the good and the bad. I
feel like I could have been a sex therapist. Would
have been a fun one too. People be like, oh

my god, I cannot wait to go to sex therapy
with Oliver and it's just gonna be a blast. Yeah,
but I would have been good at it. I will
say though that, you know, I know, I'm an actor
and I in the business or producing blah blah blah blah.
But if I wasn't doing that, I would I would
probably well, i'd be a fisherman. But forget about that. Psychology.

Fucking love psychology. Anyway. That was fun. Thank you so much,
and we'll see you next time out.
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