June 23, 2026 • 56 mins
According to “mortality curmudgeon” Dr. Stephen Cave, humans have been inventing stories about immortality since the beginning of time. On a quest to unravel some of these myths, Mangesh finds himself wrestling with a literal fountain of youth in Chicago, playing left-handed tennis with an ambidexterity expert in San Diego, and discovering the Greek way of life with an old friend from last season. Plus: Meet Mr. Wonderful.
- Watch Stephen Cave’s TED Talk and get his book, Immortality: The Quest to Live Forever and How It Drives Civilization
- Check out Jim Houliston’s website, AmbiLife, and learn more about Ambidex Fitness
- Check out George Aivaliotis’s comedy on Instagram
Special thanks to Azadi Records and Bliss Samsa for their beautiful tracks, and Botany for the score.
Episode collage art by Vahini Shori.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Listen
Watch
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Hey, it's Caitlin from racketmag here with a warning. Despite
Mongaish's grandmother's greatest wish, he is one hundred percent not
a doctor and nothing in this episode should count as
medical advice. Also, my gish, why are we playing tennis
right now in a blue zone?
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Anyway? Enjoy this woman? I met her.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
She lived to be one hundred and four.
Speaker 4 (00:50):
It's weird about her because she was not active at all.
Weren't they active about her?
Speaker 5 (00:55):
With her mouth?
Speaker 6 (01:06):
Do me a favorite?
Speaker 7 (01:07):
Could you tell us your name and your age?
Speaker 4 (01:09):
Okay, my name is Sharnie Parker. I'm eighty three years old,
God willing, I'll be eighty four this year when I retire.
My main goal was to be the world's best woman bodybuilder.
I learned by lessons from my grandmother and my dad.
Keep it moving. If you stop, it'll catch you.
Speaker 3 (01:36):
Everywhere I go. I overhear people talking about biohacking and
supplement stacks and all these new super convenient syringe pens
that are pre filled with peptides and glp ones. But
I can't tell will any of the stuff really extend
your life? There aren't a lot of one hundred and
fifty year olds. I can go ask about what drugs
(01:57):
help them get past the century mark. But what I
can do is go to a senior center and Fort Green, Brooklyn,
where people come to dance and gossip, then check in
on each other, because what I really want is some
wisdom and hard earned advice.
Speaker 8 (02:14):
My name is Lawrence J. And I'm approaching one hundred
yes in August sixteen, twenty twenty six.
Speaker 9 (02:24):
What do you do that makes you feel young?
Speaker 8 (02:27):
Being in a female company?
Speaker 3 (02:30):
Great answer, I'm forty seven.
Speaker 6 (02:33):
Now.
Speaker 3 (02:33):
I've added green powders to my wake up routine, and
I've looked up places to take cold plunges. So I've
made an effort. But also, if my health is so important,
why haven't I followed through? Maybe it's because I think
it's all a little silly, like hoping that I have
total control over my body. And even if I do
(02:54):
and I follow all these rules, is that really a life?
Speaker 5 (03:00):
Did you want to live forever if you could?
Speaker 6 (03:02):
No?
Speaker 8 (03:02):
Way, No, I've had enough of life. I am prepared
and willing to go at any time, just let it
be peatial.
Speaker 3 (03:18):
I wonder if I've been looking at longevity all wrong,
like instead of looking forward into the future. What if
we look back at the midst the old wives tales,
the stories that have been told for generations, because maybe
the fountain of youth has already been found. From Kaleidascope
and iHeart podcasts, I'm mongi'shatikular. This is Skyline Drive How
(03:42):
to Live Forever, Chapter one. The stories we tell ourselves.
(04:32):
My producer always asks our guests what they had for breakfast.
It's just to test the levels, but the answers are
a bit more complicated when you're talking to someone in
the longevity space.
Speaker 9 (04:44):
Once a month, I put in the relevant proportions of
all of these things, cocoa powder, pea protein, broccoli powder, cinnamon, ginger,
mix it all up and then just put in a
big spoonful to my overnight notes.
Speaker 8 (05:00):
Evening.
Speaker 9 (05:00):
How fun and here I am still alive working.
Speaker 3 (05:04):
That's doctor Stephen cave Co, Director of the Institute for
Technology and Humanity at the University of Cambridge, which means
he spends his days thinking about mortality, longevity and the
ethics of AI and a lot of people in the
field have a nickname for him.
Speaker 9 (05:21):
So some people do call me a mortality curmudgeon. There
are worse things to be called. I don't think immortality,
true immortality is either possible or desirable. I still think
life is great, and I'm in no rush to, you know,
shuffle off my mortal coil, as Hamlet said, I plan
to stick around for a good while.
Speaker 6 (05:42):
Yet.
Speaker 3 (05:46):
In college, my best friend and roommate Adam, was a
philosophy major, and people would always give him a hard time, like,
how are you going to get a job, or why
don't you take a real major. What's funny is that
almost every conversation I've had AI and life extension ends
up in philosophy.
Speaker 9 (06:05):
I was trained as a philosopher, and my PhD was
focused on what kind of thing humans are, and what
kind of things humans are determines what kind of things
humans can survive. So, you know, if you think humans
are a soul, then the death of the body is
not a problem. If you think that we are a body,
then that's much more worrisome.
Speaker 3 (06:24):
Back when Cave got a start, these sorts of topics
were mostly the realm of science fiction writers.
Speaker 9 (06:29):
With the rise of powerful AI in the last twenty
years or so, people really are starting to think about
machine consciousness, about mind uploading, and so on. There really
are services that you can pay for now which promised
to create a kind of digital post mortem avatar, so
you can live on in some form after you die.
So technology is giving new urgency to a lot of
(06:53):
ancient philosophical questions.
Speaker 3 (06:56):
The thing is Cave tells me it's difficult for humans
to contemplate nothing. We just can't wrap our heads around
what it feels like to be not alive.
Speaker 9 (07:05):
Death is a real paradox for us because, on the
one hand, yeah, so we have these huge brains, we
can imagine the future, we have a strong sense of self.
But at the same time, death is completely mysterious and
impossible to really.
Speaker 3 (07:19):
Imagine, and because of that we come up with stories.
Speaker 9 (07:24):
Every human society has some story about what happens when
people die, some story about how we can defeat death.
And there's an enormous variety in very colorful myths of
all sorts of different kinds. But I think there are
just a few underlying themes.
Speaker 3 (07:47):
Gave has actually boiled these recycled stories about immortality down
to four main myths or story structures. It's part of
a talk he takes on the road across the world
popping little immortality by everywhere he goes. The first myth
of the four is that we can continue to live
in our own bodies through a magical elixir.
Speaker 9 (08:13):
Nearly every culture in a recorded history has some story
of an elixir of life, or a fountain of youth,
or something that can keep us going in this body forever.
And that's just as true of modern society as it
is of Babylonia and the epic of Gilgamesh.
Speaker 3 (08:32):
We humans have been pinning hopes on magical potions, foods,
and diets forever. In ancient Greece you've got Kimia, where
alchemists played with gold and silver and plant infusions. In
Hinduism there's Amrit, India's version of ambrosia, this divine nectar
linked to immortality and supreme knowledge. In China, so many
(08:55):
emperors and nobles died from ingesting elixirs with heavy metals
in them that it was like an epidemic. So Kennist
started marketing antidotes for elixir poisoning. Of course, neither the
elixirs nor the antidotes worked, and now we've got stem
cells and peptides and nad But somehow these elixirs always
(09:17):
seem to fall short.
Speaker 9 (09:20):
As we know, these bodies are not very reliable, and
so we need backup plans.
Speaker 3 (09:26):
The second story of immortality is resurrection.
Speaker 9 (09:33):
We die in this body, but that isn't the end,
and we can be born again and live again in
this same body.
Speaker 3 (09:41):
This is of course the hope of anyone who has
frozen their bodies at death Ted Williams style. But it's
also the story of Lazarus and Jesus and Ganesh Shiva's
son who he beheaded in a rage, and when Scheva
was asked to resurrect him, the god grafted the head
of an elephant onto the boy and brought them back
to life.
Speaker 9 (10:02):
And again it seems implausible. We don't see, you know,
humans just like springing back to life. And yet in
nature we do see a kind of rhythm of death
and rebirth, things coming back to life in springtime.
Speaker 3 (10:15):
But there's a whole class of us who just can't
believe in reincarnation.
Speaker 9 (10:20):
For many people, that's a bit too zombie movie. Well,
that's all far too messy.
Speaker 3 (10:25):
And that's where the third concept comes in, the belief
in a soul.
Speaker 9 (10:29):
And this is the idea that the real me, the
real you. It isn't this body. It's an immaterial thing,
a kind of spark of the divine, and this thing
just is immortal. It just will live on when the
body dies and either be reborn if you believe in
reincarnation as Hindus, do as Plato did, or we will
go on to live on in some other realm, like
(10:51):
heaven or hell.
Speaker 3 (10:58):
When I was twenty traveling through Tibet, my friends and
I were taken to a skyburill. At this cliff side monastery,
we watched monks prey and do rituals over a body
so that a tiny hole might open in the back
of the deceased skull and the soul could escape. But
after that soul had been released, we watched the monks
(11:21):
prepare the body in total silence. They wrapped it precisely,
butchered it in a way where we saw no blood,
and then they left the body on a mountaintop, first
for the vultures to feast on, then the dogs, then
the crows. In the course of a few hours, we
(11:42):
watched a person completely disappear into nothingness. This body had
been returned to nature as its soul was liberated to
move on. And finally, the fourth myth legacy.
Speaker 9 (12:06):
So there is also a fourth kind of narrative that's
very widespread, and that's the idea that we live on
through the echoes that we leave in the world. For
some people, it takes the form of not just their children,
but their whole family, their whole tribe, and the belief
that the tribe is the real thing and we're just
one part of it.
Speaker 3 (12:29):
This one, this one hits home. I kind of believe
in this one, Like not that many people have my
last name, am I living up to it is the
work I do in the way I've woven my life together,
something that my grandparents and my ancestors could be proud of.
It looms large in my head.
Speaker 9 (12:49):
But others believe in a different kind of legacy, living
on through fame. For example. You know, again this has
been a very powerful belief throughout history to many you know,
kings and heroes, sacrifice, and of course today, you know,
millions of people are striving for fame and arguably it's
easier today than it ever was before. You know, now
or he needs a podcast.
Speaker 3 (13:12):
I guess that's the fifth myth, that everyone needs a podcast.
Point taken. The thing is, Cave does believe that humans
may one day live to one hundred and fifty and
then we'll have to reimagine the way we live our
lives then, And maybe that's where Cave seems the most homogeny.
Speaker 9 (13:31):
I think real immortality, they're really living forever, would be
a curse. If you live long enough, everyone performs all
goodness and all perversity, and you might think, well, you know, why,
why can't someone try to be good for you know,
centuries on end. But just imagine what it means to be,
you know, a good Englishman over the last few hundred years.
(13:52):
If I had tried to be a good Englishman, then
at various points I would have been colonizing India or Africa,
and then fighting races. I would have been a domineering
patriarch ruling my family with an iron fist and a
loving husband changing nappies.
Speaker 3 (14:09):
What if the biggest myth of all is the one
we keep parroting that a longer life means the more
meaningful one, that more years on earth make your life
more valuable or more enlightened, Because, as Cave points out,
the longer you live it might just be the opposite.
Speaker 9 (14:28):
You know, the world changes and it's impossible to think
that we won't change with it. And in the end,
after long enough, I think all meaning would break down,
that it would be impossible to hold onto any sense
of self or any sense of core values.
Speaker 7 (14:56):
Marilyn Parker and I am eighty seven.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
Why do you think you've lived so long?
Speaker 7 (15:01):
Probably genes are part of it, you know. I mean,
I'm grateful to have lived this long, But inevitably is
deterioration and death, and it's really a natural part of
one's existence. Not the best part, that's for sure. But
(15:24):
I think the worst part about being old is being alone.
Speaker 3 (15:30):
That, yeah, that is really hard. This Pennist chapter two,
(15:57):
The Chicago a Miracle.
Speaker 6 (16:00):
Let's try.
Speaker 5 (16:00):
I tell you, my girl, Malo push.
Speaker 7 (16:02):
Since we come out, the pen has to come out.
Speaker 4 (16:05):
Otherwise, how is it going to be open down?
Speaker 5 (16:07):
It doesn't.
Speaker 3 (16:16):
Every year my family goes to Chicago to be with
my in laws for Christmas, and every year I tried
to convince them to do something I'm obsessed with, something
I think will be fun or at least make for
a funny story. Last year was avoiding deep dish and
trying out all the other great pizzas Chicago has to offer,
like Tavern style. The year before, I tried to get
(16:39):
someone to play whirlly ball with me, a local sport
that's a mix of bumper cars, lacrosse, and basketball. I
have yet to find a family member to go. But
this year's obsession is miracle water, something my friend Lucas
Riley tipped me off about, and luckily this happens to
(17:00):
be on our way to O'Hair.
Speaker 5 (17:07):
Nice.
Speaker 10 (17:07):
So what are we doing?
Speaker 3 (17:08):
We are stopping at Schiller's magic water pump to it
doesn't work.
Speaker 5 (17:16):
What see you can't push down, which is what clearly.
Speaker 3 (17:21):
You guys, It totally does work. People were just We've
pulled the car over and walked down a short path
to a concrete circle with a metal spout sticking out
the center. At first we questioned whether this was it.
Then the family decided it was and we all got
to work desperately trying to pump water out. But something
is wrong. Lizzie has inspected all the pump's parts to
(17:42):
look for mechanical issues. My father in law is putting
his shoulder into the thing.
Speaker 5 (17:48):
It up.
Speaker 3 (17:51):
No, I'm not, And then Henry tries to hang from
it to get it to move. Ruby has their own theory.
I think it's a conspiracy.
Speaker 7 (17:59):
I don't they get actually work.
Speaker 3 (18:02):
The Schiller Woods Magic Water Pump is sometimes called Chicago's
Fountain of Youth. The water supposedly makes you feel more
energetic and look ten years younger. Some say it got
its powers from being blessed by the Pope back in
the nineteen seventies, although there's no record of him ever
coming here. Others trace the magic back in the nineteen forties,
(18:23):
when the pump was first installed. It makes me think
about Stephen Cave's story of the Promise of the Elixir
the search for a magical cure. Of course, here at
Chiller Woods, the Illinois Department of Public Health has dismissed
the idea of any magic lurking in these waters. They've
declared it has no special properties other than being slightly
(18:44):
lower in iron and copper and rich in minerals. The
water is untreated and it gets pulled directly from an
aquifer under the land, which gives it this refreshing, distinct flavor,
or so I've been told. We spend twenty minutes trying
to work the pump, but just as we're about to
walk away. Someone else shows up to fill a few
(19:06):
blue tinted five gallon jugs, the kind used in office
water coolers, and Lizzie and I hold out hope that
he has some Excalibur type power over this magic pump.
You know how to fill this up out of the
pump works?
Speaker 6 (19:23):
We don't know.
Speaker 11 (19:23):
Sure.
Speaker 5 (19:25):
It's going to be real simple and we're gonna feel stupid.
Speaker 3 (19:30):
Oh very that was good looks promising. Just off Mike
the gentleman and his girlfriend say they've worked this pump before.
He spins a few things, gives the lever a few tugs,
and then declares it's not going to work because well
because it's frozen, because it's Chicago. I'm a little disappointed.
(19:53):
Not being able to taste the magic water only makes
me want it more. But before we leave, I look
get something. Lizzy points out to me. There's a sign
that says this is a brand new water pump. Please
be gentle so it can last for years to come.
We have not been gentle, but I love that the
pump and the water beneath it isn't going anywhere.
Speaker 12 (20:22):
My name is Warrior Rose Wolfed. My age is sixty six,
and how old do you feel I will say fifty.
Speaker 3 (20:34):
What do you feel like has helped you live as
long as you have and as healthily as you have.
Speaker 12 (20:42):
My answer is going to be love, because I always
loop away from love, and I really believe that's what
it is, is love. And when you love, that means
you love people.
Speaker 3 (21:11):
Chapter three. Mister wonderful, what's our relation?
Speaker 5 (21:18):
Our relation is you are my wonderful son in law.
Speaker 3 (21:23):
There are a lot of reasons I admire my father
in law John. He's a brilliant class action lawyer who
grew up poor, like being just a kid and showing
up at a creditor's door and pleading for help to
heat his house. Poor. You know, you told me once
that no matter the weather, if there was a fire,
you would go to warm yourself by it.
Speaker 5 (21:47):
Yeah, if you've ever been really cold, you never really
get warm.
Speaker 13 (22:00):
Thrust to your life.
Speaker 3 (22:10):
John lost his dad at age seven, and his mom
went into a deep depression. They moved from Chicago to
rural Oklahoma, and even when he was a kid, John
was always working three jobs to help the family, including
bagging groceries and picking cotton. The defects of growing up
that way lingered in his system for a long time,
(22:31):
flocking to warmth wherever he found it. As a lawyer
with his own small firm, he'd take insane risks, absorbing
massive loans to fund what seemed like unwinnable cases, fighting
relentlessly for people who had been wronged but had no
voice to speak up for workers and a canning factory
who had systematically been fired just before their pensions would
(22:52):
kick in. Some of the cases would take thirty years
to see through, and John rarely lost. But John is
also ridiculous, like he has himself listed in the phone
book under the name mister Wonderful, and he has MRW
as his initials on his briefcase. Or every year there's
(23:13):
somehow a present wrapped under the Christmas tree of a
piece of china or something that's caught his eye that
we think he's bought for himself, but is just labeled
to John from a grateful nation, and as he opens
it with glee, he squeals, oh, Nation, you shouldn't have
(23:36):
the thing is. John never thought he had lived this long.
He's seventy eight now, But as Lizzie and her siblings
tell it, her dad was certain he'd pass at a
very specific age.
Speaker 5 (23:47):
Dad didn't just have a heart attack at an early age.
He dropped dead first time, you know, he had any
inkling of it. He was forty five and makes a
deep impression on you.
Speaker 3 (24:04):
I guess you can never imagine yourself growing older than
your parents. But for John it created tremendous anxiety. Lizzie
remembers that year well. She remembers her dad rushing to
the hospital thinking his panic attacks were cardiac events, and
then the year passed, a grateful nation kept giving him
(24:25):
gifts and he moved on. Lizzie encouraged me to do
this interview because obviously the show is about.
Speaker 13 (24:33):
How to live better and how to live forever.
Speaker 3 (24:35):
And Lizzie has told me frequently that you have been
worried about my health.
Speaker 5 (24:41):
That's true.
Speaker 3 (24:41):
I am what specifically is wired you.
Speaker 5 (24:45):
You always seem to be working. You never stop. You're
always and that's to me at least, part of who
you are. You're always thinking and processing things, but there
seems to be no way into it. It's all seamless.
You're always working, and I worry about.
Speaker 6 (25:05):
That, you know.
Speaker 3 (25:07):
I remember one of the first times that I was
at your place and we were both up working. It
was like two o'clock and I remember thinking, oh, maybe
you'll go to sleep soon. And then it was three am.
We were both still up and there was a movie on.
We were both typing away and working, and I think
(25:28):
it was like four am, and then we both kind
of turned in, And I feel like there's a lot
of similarity in the way we worked.
Speaker 5 (25:36):
Yeah, since my stroke, which was in twenty twenty, since then,
I don't work anything like those hours.
Speaker 3 (25:55):
That's the thing that really changed him. John had actually
suffered multiple tiny strokes for years. He hadn't paid them
much attention, but then a big one hit during the
early days of COVID. It was terrifying for so many reasons.
The family couldn't rush to be with him, to hug him,
(26:15):
to hold his hand. The distance was unimaginable. He's recovered since,
he goes on long walks and is a reliably fun
hang but he no longer plays on the Church League
basketball team. The Zelots hustling insanely hard and making opponents
in their thirties and forties worked for every bucket. It's
(26:38):
an intensity eyewitnessed. The one time we played squash together
you came out onto the court and you had elbow
pads and knee pads and you were diving all over
the place, and you would not let me win a
point without putting every ounce of effort up. And I
feel like that's very much you in a sense.
Speaker 5 (26:57):
Yeah, that's uh. I miss being able to do that
in sports now.
Speaker 3 (27:06):
The stroke was a wake up call that he wasn't superhuman,
that no one is. He's someone who had willed his
way through the toughest childhood and just believed he could
keep pushing despite this fear lurking in the back of
his mind that he'd never grow older than his dad.
Speaker 5 (27:25):
You always have it in your mind, and as you
work hard and all that, and you stay up all
night and you do all these things, and you also
simultaneously are thinking, yes, but I don't want to do
what dad did. Yeah, it's nobody is immune. At some point,
(27:51):
your body's going to catch up with you.
Speaker 3 (27:56):
I'm two years older than the age John thought he'd
pass at. He's eighteen years older than the agent astrologier
told me I'd pass that. We've both worked in ways
that have taken years off of our lives, and I
can see the ways, the stress, the things he's carried
have affected his speech, his mobility, his sense of optimism.
(28:18):
And I worry about that for myself, But I don't
know how to change.
Speaker 5 (28:25):
What is the saying old too soon? Why it is
too late? You know?
Speaker 14 (28:30):
So there you go, Chapter four, Going Southpaw.
Speaker 3 (29:08):
It's late January and I'm walking through a park in
San Diego on a perfect sunny day. But I'm cursing
myself because I hate schleffing. I'm holding a shotgun mic
in one hand, which is wired to a zoom recorder,
and my other on one shoulder. I've got a toe
bag of additional audio gear under one arm. I've got
a tennis racket under the other. I've got a water bottle,
(29:30):
and I'm waddling like a penguin, trying not to draw anything.
When Jim Hooliston strides up and throws out a hand
for me to shake, give me a second. I shuffle
all the stuff to my left hand, and then you
realize I've been tricked. I love that you stuck out
your left hand to shake. Is that like a common
thing for you know?
Speaker 5 (29:51):
Way it is?
Speaker 15 (29:52):
It's definitely my preference. I tell people my major life
goal is to get more left handed handshakes than right
a once and funny.
Speaker 3 (29:58):
If you see Jim is obsessed with ambidexterity.
Speaker 15 (30:02):
My name is Jim Hooliston and I lead ambidex Fitness,
which is the world's first brain body fitness group dedicated.
Speaker 16 (30:11):
To mirror movement development.
Speaker 3 (30:13):
He looks like he belongs in southern California, even though
he's from Scranton. He's ten, he has a great smile,
always has a skateboard with him.
Speaker 15 (30:22):
I grew up skateboarding, so I was always influenced by
Southern California, and I ended up moving out here just
after college to skateboard.
Speaker 3 (30:31):
After a decade of skating hard and a regular right
footed stance, he says his body was shot.
Speaker 15 (30:36):
I couldn't skate, but I see skateboarders everywhere. The weather's perfect,
and I was like, ah, damn, this is so depressing.
Speaker 3 (30:42):
And then one day, out of sheer frustration, he grabs
his roommate's board and decides to try skating switch that
is left footed.
Speaker 15 (30:51):
It felt so difficult. I felt like I couldn't do it,
but it didn't hurt my body, so I was like,
all right, I'll go back the next day.
Speaker 3 (31:00):
Jim keeps at it and gets addicted to skating left footed,
But after allowing his repetitive injuries to heal, he has
an idea. What if he gives his old stance a try,
and he can't believe what happens.
Speaker 15 (31:13):
I was immediately able to do new tricks that I
couldn't do before, which is something called manual transfer learning.
And it's where your dominant side actually gains proficiency when
you focus exclusively on the less dominant side. And that
was my real aha moment a good fifteen years ago,
and I just thought, you know, whoa, whoa, what happened
(31:34):
if I started doing everything else?
Speaker 6 (31:37):
Switch?
Speaker 3 (31:40):
That aha moment is the reason I'm here with my
tennis racket.
Speaker 15 (31:44):
You're the lifelong tennis guy too, so I say.
Speaker 6 (31:47):
Let's get some tennis.
Speaker 3 (31:49):
Let's get some tennis lifelong sounds.
Speaker 15 (31:54):
It made it sound like tennis was gonna be the
only thing.
Speaker 3 (31:58):
Jim has spent years researching what he calls mirror movement
development practices that break us out of our dominant side
rut both physically and mentally. Jim believes MMD is the
third pillar of longevity, alongside nutrition and exercise, and he
thinks that by using both sides of our bodies equally
(32:18):
the way nature intended, we can increase the blood flow
to both sides of our brain, triggering a cascade of benefits,
everything from weight loss to building new neural pathways. All
that's to say, Jim moved from skateboarding on both sides
to writing with both hands.
Speaker 15 (32:36):
And then I learned about Da Vinci writing his notebooks mirrored,
and I was like, well, he's basically a history as
great as genius. So that just seemed like the pure
most symmetric form of just physically developing the body. And
then I just continue. I just had this desire to
start mirror reading.
Speaker 3 (32:52):
This is mechanics. Anyway. It turns out I'm not great
at playing tennis with my left hand. I'm concentrating in
intensely first just trying to get regular contact with the ball.
Then I start to get the rhythm of it.
Speaker 4 (33:06):
So how does it feel?
Speaker 6 (33:08):
Rough?
Speaker 17 (33:08):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (33:10):
No, But I mean I like the challenge of it.
Going through these exercises. It seems almost too simple. Not
the playing, which is a challenge, but it just feels
so low tech. No obscure peptides, no Harvard guys in
lab coats, just a clear blue sky and the weight
(33:30):
of the racket in my wrong hand. Jim really does
believe ambodexterity promotes the production of natural steroids and improves
memory and could extend life. And while there's some evidence
(33:51):
that mirror exercises stimulate our brains in interesting ways, doctor Cy,
who makes the brains and Petri dishes, she suggested it might.
Jim is not a scientist, as he likes to say.
He's the guinea pig. Like, what's your family wants? Have
you gotten anyone else into it?
Speaker 15 (34:11):
No?
Speaker 16 (34:11):
No, one within my own family.
Speaker 15 (34:13):
Friends, yeah, yeah, friends, Strangers, I mean mostly strangers.
Speaker 3 (34:18):
The thing is, I like Jim so much. Do I
really think making one hundred kids mirrorright is going to
produce a class of Da Vinci's I don't. But then
two of those strangers who have since become Jim's good friends, Joyna,
is in the park. The group meets up regularly like
this in the afternoons.
Speaker 2 (34:38):
There you go.
Speaker 3 (34:40):
They're like a pack of Golden Retrievers, bounding around chasing
balls and frisbees with abandon, and there's so much joy
in it. After a while, Jim sends me out to
go catch the sunset by the beach. He insists that
you're missing out on the experience if you travel all
the way to San Diego and don't take it in.
(35:02):
So for twenty minutes, I sit and watch people surf
and do tai chi. I watch kids play on the
sand as guitars drown on in the background. I turn
off my phone and try to be present, watching hues
of pink and orange overwhelm the sky until it all
(35:30):
fades to black. Chapter five, George. If you listen to
(36:08):
the first season of the show, you might remember George.
Back then, he had a complicated love life and a
killer Jeff Goldblum impression. Also, he keeps track of everything,
including all of his online quiz results.
Speaker 16 (36:25):
Yeah, I am C three PO because I'm neurotic and
people pleaser, Sex and the City. I'm a Charlotte, a romantic,
annoyingly moral, literary character. You are holden call Field highly
intelligent and sensitive, but also very cynical. If you don't
get it together, you might have an emotional breakdown.
Speaker 3 (36:46):
George's an LA based comedian and actor, and since that
episode he's become a friend and as it turns out
he's been interested in longevity for years. He'd be the
first admit that he can be a little obsessive when
it comes to self improvement.
Speaker 16 (37:01):
Until like last year, I was fasting until now the
green powder ag one and the racy mushroom, chocolate mushroom.
Now when I brush my teeth, I balance on one foot.
I have a really nice probiotic. It's an Omega three
fish oil, because I find it very hard to eat
psychedelic therapy for my mental I don't think dark chocolate's
killing anybody.
Speaker 3 (37:19):
Part of his practice now includes sauna in multiple times
a week, so of course we started our conversation in
a sauna.
Speaker 6 (37:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (37:29):
It just it just feels like so healthy or something,
you know.
Speaker 16 (37:32):
I think, well it is, Yeah, like the finn Finland
figured it out.
Speaker 6 (37:37):
You had no question, So tell me.
Speaker 3 (37:39):
How you got Missunas and with sauna, as it turns out,
are a really nice way to start a day, but
not a great way to capture audio, partially because bros
kept walking in and out talking about how fire their
gym routines were. So George and I continued the discussion
over lunch at a very la restaurant Cafe Gratitude. Every
(38:00):
item on the menu is plant based and also titled
to express your gratitude. I Am Glorious is a blackened
tempe caesar rap I am Whole is a kimchi and
squash bowl.
Speaker 16 (38:12):
It's a macrobiotic I think she'll help you live forever.
Speaker 3 (38:19):
George is ordered an irev the glatte, and we laugh
when we realize it's called I Am Immortal. After we
order some very self affirming menu items, we start chatting
about his family.
Speaker 16 (38:31):
My cousins were always over. A lot of them lived
in the neighborhood I lived in. We're all walking distance.
Speaker 3 (38:37):
And also their roots in Nikorea, a Greek island with
near mythical status in the longevity world. It's famous for
being a blue zone.
Speaker 6 (38:46):
A refresher on blue zones. Those so called blue zones
are geographical locations where people are said to live longer
than elsewhere, include Okinawa, the Nakoya Peninsula in Costa Rica,
and yes children Ikaria, Greece.
Speaker 3 (39:07):
There's a lot of controversy about the idea of blue zones,
whether they're accurate or wishful thinking or just marketing class
The blue zones are one of the persistent longevity myths.
Speaker 6 (39:20):
In the nineteen nineties, Italian researchers began looking into longevity
on Sardinia, an isolated island with little genetic diversity. They
named their project AKA short for Akananos, a Sardinian phrase
meaning may you live to one hundred.
Speaker 3 (39:38):
The original theory in Sardinia and other blue zones is
that the people were genetically superior to the rest of us,
that their longevity was based on their DNA, But over
the years we started to question whether lifestyle is actually
more of a factor. When I met doctor nir Barzilai,
one of the first things I asked him about was
blue zones.
Speaker 10 (39:58):
I think the blue zone people themselves are claiming, no,
this is a lifespin exposure. You have to be born there,
you have to be conceived there, you have to grow
up because puberty is important and development is important. So
I'm not sure that this experiment can be actually transferred.
Speaker 3 (40:17):
I was disappointed by the answer. Moving to a blue
zone felt like the easiest and most pleasurable way to
extend my life. It does not seem fair that they
have to be born in one, but near does make
space for a little hope.
Speaker 10 (40:33):
That's another experiment. Can we move one hundred people you
know in their forties to blue zones and measure something
and show that they're becoming younger.
Speaker 6 (40:46):
Children. Do you want to live as old as a Sardinian?
Just incorporate low intensity activity like walking into your routine.
Reduce calorie intake by twenty percent, avoid media, processed foods,
drink red wine, and moderation. Find a life purpose reduced
a participate in the spiritual community, to make family a priority,
and be surrounded by people who live in a similar way.
Follow these simple steps and before you know it, you'll
(41:10):
be one hundred two.
Speaker 3 (41:19):
So George spent summers in Korea as a kid, and
he goes back as often as he can to visit relatives,
and he says, there is something different about it there.
It's not just the Mediterranean diet or the fact that
you can swim in the age in It's something harder
to capture.
Speaker 16 (41:36):
There is a slow socializing community, like a relaxed approach
to it all. There isn't that capitalist drive. I mean
each ideas also has a real communist history, Yeah, really
socialist and still and so that whole like I got
to get more and more and more. They really scoff.
Speaker 3 (41:55):
At Ikorea, George reminded me when we were in the
sauna is named for Icarus, the mythical boy who flew
too close to the sun.
Speaker 16 (42:06):
The myth is that he fell there and there's a
rock and the water where he fell. Really it's below
my village and it's where I proposed that's amazing, and
everybody's like, symbolically, what does that mean. I was like, no, no, no,
it's just I think it's one of the most beautiful
points in the island.
Speaker 3 (42:27):
To George, the rock was just beautiful. But for Iicoreians,
it's a reminder of the perils of man's hubris and
the need to appreciate what you have instead of reaching.
Speaker 16 (42:40):
Like my grandfather built a big house in our village
and they call it the Castle. It's like three bedrooms,
but it's kind of embarrassing because there's a tall, poppy thing.
You know.
Speaker 3 (43:04):
George and I have that first gent thing in common,
and I tell him how visiting India and specifically this
little hilltop town that my grandparents lived in in the eighties,
always felt like a time warp. There were only two
TV stations and you spent your evenings playing cards on
the verandah, or going on walks and making evening calls
to visit neighbors. It felt slower. Life wasn't just manageable,
(43:30):
It felt like something to savor and derive pleasure from
because time moved so differently there. It all felt a
certain type of dreamy. George tells me he has this
bit he does for his cousins to make them laugh,
just showing them how purposefully and quickly big city Americans
(43:53):
walk around.
Speaker 16 (43:54):
I got up and I was like, this is how
I would walk in New York. And I went fast
walked across the plazia, pretending like I was going to
the cafe. And they were laughing so hard, and they're like,
why would you.
Speaker 3 (44:06):
Ever do that? What I really wanted to know is
do people in Korea think about longevity as much as
two stressed out Americans do. George asked his cousin that
exact question.
Speaker 16 (44:19):
I was like, what do you think? And he was like,
nobody thinks about longevity, don't as a shit.
Speaker 3 (44:25):
What really matters in Korea isn't science, it's connection. It's
multi generations meeting and hanging out in local cafes. Old
people and young people alike, never worrying about the time,
and talking for hours. George tells me about these parties
where everyone in the village gathers to eat and drink
and dance.
Speaker 16 (44:45):
Fani idia are these Saints Day parties. People will come
from like five pm until the sun comes up. There
will be a band that plays the whole time. People
will dance pretty much the whole night.
Speaker 3 (45:00):
There's something so appealing about being somewhere else slowing down
my life, about coffee dates with friends and no deadlines,
and music and feasts and laughing with people of all
ages and hanging out in the town square into the night.
It's not like I don't see people in New York.
I'm just so busy walking fast from one place to another,
(45:22):
working or trying to keep my life together. And it's
not quite as simple as just slow down and choose
a different pace, because the pace of New York is
set collectively, just like it is in the Korea. George
has also seen what happened in his own family when
they left a Korea.
Speaker 16 (45:40):
My grandfather is the great example. You had, like what
is a quad druple bypass? When in seventies he had
a quadruple vipass. So like I think he came here
and just ate the American diets who assimilate. And it
wasn't until his bypass or agree that he got really healthy.
(46:01):
He started eating like his mother taught him, started exercising religiously,
walking ten thousand steps a day. I couldn't keep up
with him, so he became a health freak in his seventies.
Speaker 3 (46:12):
So George is careful, really careful. He saw on us
four to five times a week. He climbs and lifts,
he watches what he eats. He keeps an eye on
it all.
Speaker 16 (46:22):
Like I was one of the first. Like you better
be drinking water all day. People very annoying.
Speaker 3 (46:27):
But he's got no interest in longevity if it means
sucking the life out of life. And that's why he
tells me he'll never follow Brian Johnson's ultra strict habits.
Speaker 16 (46:37):
I mean, really, it's like an anti life photocol. You're
giving up all the things that bring froid to this
Planet's spending all night with your friends talking great food.
He's eating the same meal every day and has this
very strict he stops eating at eleven am is when
he has his dinner kill me.
Speaker 18 (47:05):
My name is Vito Ricci and I am seventy eight
years old.
Speaker 5 (47:10):
Do you think if you could, would you want to
live forever?
Speaker 8 (47:13):
No? No, you would have.
Speaker 18 (47:15):
I wouldn't want to live forever. I mean the only
way I would, you know, since we're talking about fantasies. Yes,
if I could be totally healthy forever, you know, why
not when I'm thinking of it, I'll kill myself so
to live forever. It's just a fantasy, So yeah, I
might as well. Can I fly to.
Speaker 3 (47:37):
Months ago? As I'd walked out of doctor Primus's office
and met a patient whose mother also happened to be
a patient. She was this vibrant one hundred and six
year old who still loved to dance. And it makes
me think about the midnight beasts and village dances in Korea,
where age isn't a barrier to participating.
Speaker 16 (47:56):
It's a circle dance. Each island has a unique step.
Everybody holds each other up with their arms. They don't
hold hands. They're holding each other up so they can
do these more difficult movements.
Speaker 3 (48:07):
There's such beauty in this idea of holding each other up.
A town built on this land where Icarus first believed
he was a god, then was shown how clearly he wasn't.
A place of community but also humility.
Speaker 16 (48:23):
A person who takes the front is usually a really
good dancer, but they never take up too much space.
They might do some flourishes, they show up a little bit,
then you go back into the group.
Speaker 3 (48:33):
As George describes the night, it reminds me of the
Assyrian circle dance we did at my wedding.
Speaker 16 (48:38):
You are sweating by the end of this. Oh it
gets faster.
Speaker 3 (48:42):
Or the ross leelas I did as a kid.
Speaker 16 (48:44):
And you're exhilarated. All night. You keep getting up to dance.
Speaker 3 (48:47):
Of the ecstasy of moving together, the beauty of the
chance billowing through the hot night air, hand drums pulsing,
and those impossible to describe feelings of love and intoxication
that make your heart feels so full. I do think
it's an enduring love that plays into all of these communities.
(49:10):
I felt it in the way Jim lives his life,
the power of his sweet oddball meet up with friends,
smiling and running through a park and stealing time to
bask in the awe of a sunset. They love one another.
It's love bound up and care and respect that has
you lifting up others, whether it's my father in law,
(49:32):
the boy who needed work in elementary school to put
food on his family's table, who never forgot and made
a life of giving, or the elders on the hot
summer night being lifted arm in arm the same way
they lifted others in their youth, soaking up the magic
of the night and dancing like everyone's watching because they are.
(49:57):
That love exists here to You can witness it in
a little center in Brooklyn, surrounded by people who didn't
have the easiest lives, but who've lived longer than they've
ever thought they would and are thriving in community thousands
of miles from the nearest blue zone.
Speaker 10 (50:23):
My husband had just died.
Speaker 12 (50:25):
I know, excuse me, what the hell I was going
to do with my life? But I came here, and
I feel like it's been a gift from God. You know,
even at this age, you want to feel like you
belong somewhere that people could you know.
Speaker 18 (50:43):
I think being around young people keeps your brain thinking young.
I assume that helps knowing you, my dear, it is
keeping us young.
Speaker 6 (50:53):
Ye.
Speaker 17 (50:54):
I would like to live as long as I'm healthy
and able to help myself, I don't mind a little
a campaign. But if I'm bed bond or injured, I
don't want to live very long. But if I'm healthy
and I can help myself and help society, I'd like
to live to two hundred years.
Speaker 3 (51:28):
On the next episode, I traveled to San Francisco to
visit a few tech communes and hacker houses. But even
in a house brimming with utopic ideals and impressive founders,
it turns out community can't fix everything.
Speaker 11 (51:42):
We have a laundry room, which is getting a lot
of love recently, probably one of the most hyped parts
of the house. But why we had a fiasco with
a laundry where I just I wasn't working for three
weeks and so I was a huge trauma bonding area.
We called the maintenance. It hooked up to the wrong
machines and then to get thirty dollars sort of coins,
so a quarters to go and we're all crypto, like,
(52:04):
who has coins?
Speaker 6 (52:05):
You know?
Speaker 3 (52:06):
That's next time on How to Live Forever Friends, We
(52:44):
did it. It means so much to me that you
listen to this sweet and ridiculous circus of a show.
How to Live Forever is a production of Kaleidoscope and
iHeart Podcast. It is hosted and written by me Mongay's Sheartigular.
But it is also such a gift that I get
to work with my friends truly. This week, I am
starting with Mietra Bunshahi and my cat loving supervising producer
(53:06):
Mary Philip Sandy. They were the ones who went out
and captured that chorus of voices from the remarkable and
inspiring people at the Fort Green Council's Older adult clubs.
Thank you to Leshana Lawrence for coordinating our visit there.
Jeremy Bent, who narrated our nineteen fifties like Blue Zone
educational reel, thank you so much. It tickled me to
no end. And I can't believe I forgot this in
(53:29):
the last episode. But John McGarry. You might know John
as the brilliant director of the indie flick The Men,
or for punching Jason Schwartzman in the face in Behind
the Temples. But I've never said this to anyone before.
Thank you so much for heckling me. Okay, So, my crew,
this show and my life is eped by the beautiful
(53:50):
Lizzie Jacobs, my love who I drive crazy every single
week not hitting deadlines. Also, it is story edited by
the genius Mark Lotto. He keeps saying, let's take this
sound like Harry met Sally, or let's turn this part
into a ridiculous nineteen fifties educational doc or whatever, and
he makes everything he touches so much better. Also, thank
you to the only person who actually understands biology on
(54:11):
our team, science producer Mark Steven Allen Anna from Computer
City Productions, our genius genius mixer. Thank you for giving
us so much of your time and talent to make
this beautiful series sound as special as it does. It
really means a ton. Also, how good is the music?
It is all thanks to Botany at Zadi Records and
Bliss sampsa who's gonzo ministry of silly walk style videos
(54:34):
on Insta make me laugh every week. If you want
to hear more of their music, and you do, we
made you a mixtape, just go check out the show notes.
Also special thanks to Lucas Riley who put me to
the Chicago Miracle Water which yes I know, fact Checkers
is not in Chicago, It's in the Chicago Land area
(54:54):
and iHeart The show is executive produced by my good
pals Ali Perry and Katrina Norvel and Kaleidiscope. I've got
to thank my partners, Ozmalishan and Cosaslinas. Also Julian Nutter,
Sina Zaki, thank you so much for lending your ears
to this episode. Christy Dara, Agne David, thank you so
much for throwing us a Bonker's party. Rachel Strom our
(55:16):
brilliant legal mind. Thank you for attending that party and
also for everything else you do for me. Also Al
and Vahi Me thank you for the marketing and making
this show look good in the world. The kiddos, Henry
and Ruby, Julian, Brenda lou rema Enzo, Pearl, Baby lay
On and this week Maya, Ri and Aaron you're getting
(55:38):
a shout out too, even though I hope you are
at home watching Cars three on Loop instead of listening
to this. Also Shantan Sorrow and Yes Barkley for not
holding a grudge about missing our picnic. The voice at
the top with bird song sprinkled in. That is my
good friend and someone who picked me up when I
was really down. Caitlin Thompson Caitlin runs one of my
favorite magazines, racket which if you love tennis style or
(56:01):
just need to pretty up your coffee table and show
people you're interesting, it is the very very best you
can find a racketbag dot com. Thank you for everyone
who participated in the show. Everyone I've forgotten, but especially
my in laws, John and Betty Jacobs, who are just
the most inspiring and loving and generous people, which comes
through in all three of their beautiful kids. And as always,
(56:23):
this show is for my dad and my Amma, both
of whom I thank my lucky stars for. Thank you
so much for listening.
Hey, it's Caitlin from racketmag here with a warning. Despite
Mongaish's grandmother's greatest wish, he is one hundred percent not
a doctor and nothing in this episode should count as
medical advice. Also, my gish, why are we playing tennis
right now in a blue zone?
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Anyway? Enjoy this woman? I met her.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
She lived to be one hundred and four.
Speaker 4 (00:50):
It's weird about her because she was not active at all.
Weren't they active about her?
Speaker 5 (00:55):
With her mouth?
Speaker 6 (01:06):
Do me a favorite?
Speaker 7 (01:07):
Could you tell us your name and your age?
Speaker 4 (01:09):
Okay, my name is Sharnie Parker. I'm eighty three years old,
God willing, I'll be eighty four this year when I retire.
My main goal was to be the world's best woman bodybuilder.
I learned by lessons from my grandmother and my dad.
Keep it moving. If you stop, it'll catch you.
Speaker 3 (01:36):
Everywhere I go. I overhear people talking about biohacking and
supplement stacks and all these new super convenient syringe pens
that are pre filled with peptides and glp ones. But
I can't tell will any of the stuff really extend
your life? There aren't a lot of one hundred and
fifty year olds. I can go ask about what drugs
(01:57):
help them get past the century mark. But what I
can do is go to a senior center and Fort Green, Brooklyn,
where people come to dance and gossip, then check in
on each other, because what I really want is some
wisdom and hard earned advice.
Speaker 8 (02:14):
My name is Lawrence J. And I'm approaching one hundred
yes in August sixteen, twenty twenty six.
Speaker 9 (02:24):
What do you do that makes you feel young?
Speaker 8 (02:27):
Being in a female company?
Speaker 3 (02:30):
Great answer, I'm forty seven.
Speaker 6 (02:33):
Now.
Speaker 3 (02:33):
I've added green powders to my wake up routine, and
I've looked up places to take cold plunges. So I've
made an effort. But also, if my health is so important,
why haven't I followed through? Maybe it's because I think
it's all a little silly, like hoping that I have
total control over my body. And even if I do
(02:54):
and I follow all these rules, is that really a life?
Speaker 5 (03:00):
Did you want to live forever if you could?
Speaker 6 (03:02):
No?
Speaker 8 (03:02):
Way, No, I've had enough of life. I am prepared
and willing to go at any time, just let it
be peatial.
Speaker 3 (03:18):
I wonder if I've been looking at longevity all wrong,
like instead of looking forward into the future. What if
we look back at the midst the old wives tales,
the stories that have been told for generations, because maybe
the fountain of youth has already been found. From Kaleidascope
and iHeart podcasts, I'm mongi'shatikular. This is Skyline Drive How
(03:42):
to Live Forever, Chapter one. The stories we tell ourselves.
(04:32):
My producer always asks our guests what they had for breakfast.
It's just to test the levels, but the answers are
a bit more complicated when you're talking to someone in
the longevity space.
Speaker 9 (04:44):
Once a month, I put in the relevant proportions of
all of these things, cocoa powder, pea protein, broccoli powder, cinnamon, ginger,
mix it all up and then just put in a
big spoonful to my overnight notes.
Speaker 8 (05:00):
Evening.
Speaker 9 (05:00):
How fun and here I am still alive working.
Speaker 3 (05:04):
That's doctor Stephen cave Co, Director of the Institute for
Technology and Humanity at the University of Cambridge, which means
he spends his days thinking about mortality, longevity and the
ethics of AI and a lot of people in the
field have a nickname for him.
Speaker 9 (05:21):
So some people do call me a mortality curmudgeon. There
are worse things to be called. I don't think immortality,
true immortality is either possible or desirable. I still think
life is great, and I'm in no rush to, you know,
shuffle off my mortal coil, as Hamlet said, I plan
to stick around for a good while.
Speaker 6 (05:42):
Yet.
Speaker 3 (05:46):
In college, my best friend and roommate Adam, was a
philosophy major, and people would always give him a hard time, like,
how are you going to get a job, or why
don't you take a real major. What's funny is that
almost every conversation I've had AI and life extension ends
up in philosophy.
Speaker 9 (06:05):
I was trained as a philosopher, and my PhD was
focused on what kind of thing humans are, and what
kind of things humans are determines what kind of things
humans can survive. So, you know, if you think humans
are a soul, then the death of the body is
not a problem. If you think that we are a body,
then that's much more worrisome.
Speaker 3 (06:24):
Back when Cave got a start, these sorts of topics
were mostly the realm of science fiction writers.
Speaker 9 (06:29):
With the rise of powerful AI in the last twenty
years or so, people really are starting to think about
machine consciousness, about mind uploading, and so on. There really
are services that you can pay for now which promised
to create a kind of digital post mortem avatar, so
you can live on in some form after you die.
So technology is giving new urgency to a lot of
(06:53):
ancient philosophical questions.
Speaker 3 (06:56):
The thing is Cave tells me it's difficult for humans
to contemplate nothing. We just can't wrap our heads around
what it feels like to be not alive.
Speaker 9 (07:05):
Death is a real paradox for us because, on the
one hand, yeah, so we have these huge brains, we
can imagine the future, we have a strong sense of self.
But at the same time, death is completely mysterious and
impossible to really.
Speaker 3 (07:19):
Imagine, and because of that we come up with stories.
Speaker 9 (07:24):
Every human society has some story about what happens when
people die, some story about how we can defeat death.
And there's an enormous variety in very colorful myths of
all sorts of different kinds. But I think there are
just a few underlying themes.
Speaker 3 (07:47):
Gave has actually boiled these recycled stories about immortality down
to four main myths or story structures. It's part of
a talk he takes on the road across the world
popping little immortality by everywhere he goes. The first myth
of the four is that we can continue to live
in our own bodies through a magical elixir.
Speaker 9 (08:13):
Nearly every culture in a recorded history has some story
of an elixir of life, or a fountain of youth,
or something that can keep us going in this body forever.
And that's just as true of modern society as it
is of Babylonia and the epic of Gilgamesh.
Speaker 3 (08:32):
We humans have been pinning hopes on magical potions, foods,
and diets forever. In ancient Greece you've got Kimia, where
alchemists played with gold and silver and plant infusions. In
Hinduism there's Amrit, India's version of ambrosia, this divine nectar
linked to immortality and supreme knowledge. In China, so many
(08:55):
emperors and nobles died from ingesting elixirs with heavy metals
in them that it was like an epidemic. So Kennist
started marketing antidotes for elixir poisoning. Of course, neither the
elixirs nor the antidotes worked, and now we've got stem
cells and peptides and nad But somehow these elixirs always
(09:17):
seem to fall short.
Speaker 9 (09:20):
As we know, these bodies are not very reliable, and
so we need backup plans.
Speaker 3 (09:26):
The second story of immortality is resurrection.
Speaker 9 (09:33):
We die in this body, but that isn't the end,
and we can be born again and live again in
this same body.
Speaker 3 (09:41):
This is of course the hope of anyone who has
frozen their bodies at death Ted Williams style. But it's
also the story of Lazarus and Jesus and Ganesh Shiva's
son who he beheaded in a rage, and when Scheva
was asked to resurrect him, the god grafted the head
of an elephant onto the boy and brought them back
to life.
Speaker 9 (10:02):
And again it seems implausible. We don't see, you know,
humans just like springing back to life. And yet in
nature we do see a kind of rhythm of death
and rebirth, things coming back to life in springtime.
Speaker 3 (10:15):
But there's a whole class of us who just can't
believe in reincarnation.
Speaker 9 (10:20):
For many people, that's a bit too zombie movie. Well,
that's all far too messy.
Speaker 3 (10:25):
And that's where the third concept comes in, the belief
in a soul.
Speaker 9 (10:29):
And this is the idea that the real me, the
real you. It isn't this body. It's an immaterial thing,
a kind of spark of the divine, and this thing
just is immortal. It just will live on when the
body dies and either be reborn if you believe in
reincarnation as Hindus, do as Plato did, or we will
go on to live on in some other realm, like
(10:51):
heaven or hell.
Speaker 3 (10:58):
When I was twenty traveling through Tibet, my friends and
I were taken to a skyburill. At this cliff side monastery,
we watched monks prey and do rituals over a body
so that a tiny hole might open in the back
of the deceased skull and the soul could escape. But
after that soul had been released, we watched the monks
(11:21):
prepare the body in total silence. They wrapped it precisely,
butchered it in a way where we saw no blood,
and then they left the body on a mountaintop, first
for the vultures to feast on, then the dogs, then
the crows. In the course of a few hours, we
(11:42):
watched a person completely disappear into nothingness. This body had
been returned to nature as its soul was liberated to
move on. And finally, the fourth myth legacy.
Speaker 9 (12:06):
So there is also a fourth kind of narrative that's
very widespread, and that's the idea that we live on
through the echoes that we leave in the world. For
some people, it takes the form of not just their children,
but their whole family, their whole tribe, and the belief
that the tribe is the real thing and we're just
one part of it.
Speaker 3 (12:29):
This one, this one hits home. I kind of believe
in this one, Like not that many people have my
last name, am I living up to it is the
work I do in the way I've woven my life together,
something that my grandparents and my ancestors could be proud of.
It looms large in my head.
Speaker 9 (12:49):
But others believe in a different kind of legacy, living
on through fame. For example. You know, again this has
been a very powerful belief throughout history to many you know,
kings and heroes, sacrifice, and of course today, you know,
millions of people are striving for fame and arguably it's
easier today than it ever was before. You know, now
or he needs a podcast.
Speaker 3 (13:12):
I guess that's the fifth myth, that everyone needs a podcast.
Point taken. The thing is, Cave does believe that humans
may one day live to one hundred and fifty and
then we'll have to reimagine the way we live our
lives then, And maybe that's where Cave seems the most homogeny.
Speaker 9 (13:31):
I think real immortality, they're really living forever, would be
a curse. If you live long enough, everyone performs all
goodness and all perversity, and you might think, well, you know, why,
why can't someone try to be good for you know,
centuries on end. But just imagine what it means to be,
you know, a good Englishman over the last few hundred years.
(13:52):
If I had tried to be a good Englishman, then
at various points I would have been colonizing India or Africa,
and then fighting races. I would have been a domineering
patriarch ruling my family with an iron fist and a
loving husband changing nappies.
Speaker 3 (14:09):
What if the biggest myth of all is the one
we keep parroting that a longer life means the more
meaningful one, that more years on earth make your life
more valuable or more enlightened, Because, as Cave points out,
the longer you live it might just be the opposite.
Speaker 9 (14:28):
You know, the world changes and it's impossible to think
that we won't change with it. And in the end,
after long enough, I think all meaning would break down,
that it would be impossible to hold onto any sense
of self or any sense of core values.
Speaker 7 (14:56):
Marilyn Parker and I am eighty seven.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
Why do you think you've lived so long?
Speaker 7 (15:01):
Probably genes are part of it, you know. I mean,
I'm grateful to have lived this long, But inevitably is
deterioration and death, and it's really a natural part of
one's existence. Not the best part, that's for sure. But
(15:24):
I think the worst part about being old is being alone.
Speaker 3 (15:30):
That, yeah, that is really hard. This Pennist chapter two,
(15:57):
The Chicago a Miracle.
Speaker 6 (16:00):
Let's try.
Speaker 5 (16:00):
I tell you, my girl, Malo push.
Speaker 7 (16:02):
Since we come out, the pen has to come out.
Speaker 4 (16:05):
Otherwise, how is it going to be open down?
Speaker 5 (16:07):
It doesn't.
Speaker 3 (16:16):
Every year my family goes to Chicago to be with
my in laws for Christmas, and every year I tried
to convince them to do something I'm obsessed with, something
I think will be fun or at least make for
a funny story. Last year was avoiding deep dish and
trying out all the other great pizzas Chicago has to offer,
like Tavern style. The year before, I tried to get
(16:39):
someone to play whirlly ball with me, a local sport
that's a mix of bumper cars, lacrosse, and basketball. I
have yet to find a family member to go. But
this year's obsession is miracle water, something my friend Lucas
Riley tipped me off about, and luckily this happens to
(17:00):
be on our way to O'Hair.
Speaker 5 (17:07):
Nice.
Speaker 10 (17:07):
So what are we doing?
Speaker 3 (17:08):
We are stopping at Schiller's magic water pump to it
doesn't work.
Speaker 5 (17:16):
What see you can't push down, which is what clearly.
Speaker 3 (17:21):
You guys, It totally does work. People were just We've
pulled the car over and walked down a short path
to a concrete circle with a metal spout sticking out
the center. At first we questioned whether this was it.
Then the family decided it was and we all got
to work desperately trying to pump water out. But something
is wrong. Lizzie has inspected all the pump's parts to
(17:42):
look for mechanical issues. My father in law is putting
his shoulder into the thing.
Speaker 5 (17:48):
It up.
Speaker 3 (17:51):
No, I'm not, And then Henry tries to hang from
it to get it to move. Ruby has their own theory.
I think it's a conspiracy.
Speaker 7 (17:59):
I don't they get actually work.
Speaker 3 (18:02):
The Schiller Woods Magic Water Pump is sometimes called Chicago's
Fountain of Youth. The water supposedly makes you feel more
energetic and look ten years younger. Some say it got
its powers from being blessed by the Pope back in
the nineteen seventies, although there's no record of him ever
coming here. Others trace the magic back in the nineteen forties,
(18:23):
when the pump was first installed. It makes me think
about Stephen Cave's story of the Promise of the Elixir
the search for a magical cure. Of course, here at
Chiller Woods, the Illinois Department of Public Health has dismissed
the idea of any magic lurking in these waters. They've
declared it has no special properties other than being slightly
(18:44):
lower in iron and copper and rich in minerals. The
water is untreated and it gets pulled directly from an
aquifer under the land, which gives it this refreshing, distinct flavor,
or so I've been told. We spend twenty minutes trying
to work the pump, but just as we're about to
walk away. Someone else shows up to fill a few
(19:06):
blue tinted five gallon jugs, the kind used in office
water coolers, and Lizzie and I hold out hope that
he has some Excalibur type power over this magic pump.
You know how to fill this up out of the
pump works?
Speaker 6 (19:23):
We don't know.
Speaker 11 (19:23):
Sure.
Speaker 5 (19:25):
It's going to be real simple and we're gonna feel stupid.
Speaker 3 (19:30):
Oh very that was good looks promising. Just off Mike
the gentleman and his girlfriend say they've worked this pump before.
He spins a few things, gives the lever a few tugs,
and then declares it's not going to work because well
because it's frozen, because it's Chicago. I'm a little disappointed.
(19:53):
Not being able to taste the magic water only makes
me want it more. But before we leave, I look
get something. Lizzy points out to me. There's a sign
that says this is a brand new water pump. Please
be gentle so it can last for years to come.
We have not been gentle, but I love that the
pump and the water beneath it isn't going anywhere.
Speaker 12 (20:22):
My name is Warrior Rose Wolfed. My age is sixty six,
and how old do you feel I will say fifty.
Speaker 3 (20:34):
What do you feel like has helped you live as
long as you have and as healthily as you have.
Speaker 12 (20:42):
My answer is going to be love, because I always
loop away from love, and I really believe that's what
it is, is love. And when you love, that means
you love people.
Speaker 3 (21:11):
Chapter three. Mister wonderful, what's our relation?
Speaker 5 (21:18):
Our relation is you are my wonderful son in law.
Speaker 3 (21:23):
There are a lot of reasons I admire my father
in law John. He's a brilliant class action lawyer who
grew up poor, like being just a kid and showing
up at a creditor's door and pleading for help to
heat his house. Poor. You know, you told me once
that no matter the weather, if there was a fire,
you would go to warm yourself by it.
Speaker 5 (21:47):
Yeah, if you've ever been really cold, you never really
get warm.
Speaker 13 (22:00):
Thrust to your life.
Speaker 3 (22:10):
John lost his dad at age seven, and his mom
went into a deep depression. They moved from Chicago to
rural Oklahoma, and even when he was a kid, John
was always working three jobs to help the family, including
bagging groceries and picking cotton. The defects of growing up
that way lingered in his system for a long time,
(22:31):
flocking to warmth wherever he found it. As a lawyer
with his own small firm, he'd take insane risks, absorbing
massive loans to fund what seemed like unwinnable cases, fighting
relentlessly for people who had been wronged but had no
voice to speak up for workers and a canning factory
who had systematically been fired just before their pensions would
(22:52):
kick in. Some of the cases would take thirty years
to see through, and John rarely lost. But John is
also ridiculous, like he has himself listed in the phone
book under the name mister Wonderful, and he has MRW
as his initials on his briefcase. Or every year there's
(23:13):
somehow a present wrapped under the Christmas tree of a
piece of china or something that's caught his eye that
we think he's bought for himself, but is just labeled
to John from a grateful nation, and as he opens
it with glee, he squeals, oh, Nation, you shouldn't have
(23:36):
the thing is. John never thought he had lived this long.
He's seventy eight now, But as Lizzie and her siblings
tell it, her dad was certain he'd pass at a
very specific age.
Speaker 5 (23:47):
Dad didn't just have a heart attack at an early age.
He dropped dead first time, you know, he had any
inkling of it. He was forty five and makes a
deep impression on you.
Speaker 3 (24:04):
I guess you can never imagine yourself growing older than
your parents. But for John it created tremendous anxiety. Lizzie
remembers that year well. She remembers her dad rushing to
the hospital thinking his panic attacks were cardiac events, and
then the year passed, a grateful nation kept giving him
(24:25):
gifts and he moved on. Lizzie encouraged me to do
this interview because obviously the show is about.
Speaker 13 (24:33):
How to live better and how to live forever.
Speaker 3 (24:35):
And Lizzie has told me frequently that you have been
worried about my health.
Speaker 5 (24:41):
That's true.
Speaker 3 (24:41):
I am what specifically is wired you.
Speaker 5 (24:45):
You always seem to be working. You never stop. You're
always and that's to me at least, part of who
you are. You're always thinking and processing things, but there
seems to be no way into it. It's all seamless.
You're always working, and I worry about.
Speaker 6 (25:05):
That, you know.
Speaker 3 (25:07):
I remember one of the first times that I was
at your place and we were both up working. It
was like two o'clock and I remember thinking, oh, maybe
you'll go to sleep soon. And then it was three am.
We were both still up and there was a movie on.
We were both typing away and working, and I think
(25:28):
it was like four am, and then we both kind
of turned in, And I feel like there's a lot
of similarity in the way we worked.
Speaker 5 (25:36):
Yeah, since my stroke, which was in twenty twenty, since then,
I don't work anything like those hours.
Speaker 3 (25:55):
That's the thing that really changed him. John had actually
suffered multiple tiny strokes for years. He hadn't paid them
much attention, but then a big one hit during the
early days of COVID. It was terrifying for so many reasons.
The family couldn't rush to be with him, to hug him,
(26:15):
to hold his hand. The distance was unimaginable. He's recovered since,
he goes on long walks and is a reliably fun
hang but he no longer plays on the Church League
basketball team. The Zelots hustling insanely hard and making opponents
in their thirties and forties worked for every bucket. It's
(26:38):
an intensity eyewitnessed. The one time we played squash together
you came out onto the court and you had elbow
pads and knee pads and you were diving all over
the place, and you would not let me win a
point without putting every ounce of effort up. And I
feel like that's very much you in a sense.
Speaker 5 (26:57):
Yeah, that's uh. I miss being able to do that
in sports now.
Speaker 3 (27:06):
The stroke was a wake up call that he wasn't superhuman,
that no one is. He's someone who had willed his
way through the toughest childhood and just believed he could
keep pushing despite this fear lurking in the back of
his mind that he'd never grow older than his dad.
Speaker 5 (27:25):
You always have it in your mind, and as you
work hard and all that, and you stay up all
night and you do all these things, and you also
simultaneously are thinking, yes, but I don't want to do
what dad did. Yeah, it's nobody is immune. At some point,
(27:51):
your body's going to catch up with you.
Speaker 3 (27:56):
I'm two years older than the age John thought he'd
pass at. He's eighteen years older than the agent astrologier
told me I'd pass that. We've both worked in ways
that have taken years off of our lives, and I
can see the ways, the stress, the things he's carried
have affected his speech, his mobility, his sense of optimism.
(28:18):
And I worry about that for myself, But I don't
know how to change.
Speaker 5 (28:25):
What is the saying old too soon? Why it is
too late? You know?
Speaker 14 (28:30):
So there you go, Chapter four, Going Southpaw.
Speaker 3 (29:08):
It's late January and I'm walking through a park in
San Diego on a perfect sunny day. But I'm cursing
myself because I hate schleffing. I'm holding a shotgun mic
in one hand, which is wired to a zoom recorder,
and my other on one shoulder. I've got a toe
bag of additional audio gear under one arm. I've got
a tennis racket under the other. I've got a water bottle,
(29:30):
and I'm waddling like a penguin, trying not to draw anything.
When Jim Hooliston strides up and throws out a hand
for me to shake, give me a second. I shuffle
all the stuff to my left hand, and then you
realize I've been tricked. I love that you stuck out
your left hand to shake. Is that like a common
thing for you know?
Speaker 5 (29:51):
Way it is?
Speaker 15 (29:52):
It's definitely my preference. I tell people my major life
goal is to get more left handed handshakes than right
a once and funny.
Speaker 3 (29:58):
If you see Jim is obsessed with ambidexterity.
Speaker 15 (30:02):
My name is Jim Hooliston and I lead ambidex Fitness,
which is the world's first brain body fitness group dedicated.
Speaker 16 (30:11):
To mirror movement development.
Speaker 3 (30:13):
He looks like he belongs in southern California, even though
he's from Scranton. He's ten, he has a great smile,
always has a skateboard with him.
Speaker 15 (30:22):
I grew up skateboarding, so I was always influenced by
Southern California, and I ended up moving out here just
after college to skateboard.
Speaker 3 (30:31):
After a decade of skating hard and a regular right
footed stance, he says his body was shot.
Speaker 15 (30:36):
I couldn't skate, but I see skateboarders everywhere. The weather's perfect,
and I was like, ah, damn, this is so depressing.
Speaker 3 (30:42):
And then one day, out of sheer frustration, he grabs
his roommate's board and decides to try skating switch that
is left footed.
Speaker 15 (30:51):
It felt so difficult. I felt like I couldn't do it,
but it didn't hurt my body, so I was like,
all right, I'll go back the next day.
Speaker 3 (31:00):
Jim keeps at it and gets addicted to skating left footed,
But after allowing his repetitive injuries to heal, he has
an idea. What if he gives his old stance a try,
and he can't believe what happens.
Speaker 15 (31:13):
I was immediately able to do new tricks that I
couldn't do before, which is something called manual transfer learning.
And it's where your dominant side actually gains proficiency when
you focus exclusively on the less dominant side. And that
was my real aha moment a good fifteen years ago,
and I just thought, you know, whoa, whoa, what happened
(31:34):
if I started doing everything else?
Speaker 6 (31:37):
Switch?
Speaker 3 (31:40):
That aha moment is the reason I'm here with my
tennis racket.
Speaker 15 (31:44):
You're the lifelong tennis guy too, so I say.
Speaker 6 (31:47):
Let's get some tennis.
Speaker 3 (31:49):
Let's get some tennis lifelong sounds.
Speaker 15 (31:54):
It made it sound like tennis was gonna be the
only thing.
Speaker 3 (31:58):
Jim has spent years researching what he calls mirror movement
development practices that break us out of our dominant side
rut both physically and mentally. Jim believes MMD is the
third pillar of longevity, alongside nutrition and exercise, and he
thinks that by using both sides of our bodies equally
(32:18):
the way nature intended, we can increase the blood flow
to both sides of our brain, triggering a cascade of benefits,
everything from weight loss to building new neural pathways. All
that's to say, Jim moved from skateboarding on both sides
to writing with both hands.
Speaker 15 (32:36):
And then I learned about Da Vinci writing his notebooks mirrored,
and I was like, well, he's basically a history as
great as genius. So that just seemed like the pure
most symmetric form of just physically developing the body. And
then I just continue. I just had this desire to
start mirror reading.
Speaker 3 (32:52):
This is mechanics. Anyway. It turns out I'm not great
at playing tennis with my left hand. I'm concentrating in
intensely first just trying to get regular contact with the ball.
Then I start to get the rhythm of it.
Speaker 4 (33:06):
So how does it feel?
Speaker 6 (33:08):
Rough?
Speaker 17 (33:08):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (33:10):
No, But I mean I like the challenge of it.
Going through these exercises. It seems almost too simple. Not
the playing, which is a challenge, but it just feels
so low tech. No obscure peptides, no Harvard guys in
lab coats, just a clear blue sky and the weight
(33:30):
of the racket in my wrong hand. Jim really does
believe ambodexterity promotes the production of natural steroids and improves
memory and could extend life. And while there's some evidence
(33:51):
that mirror exercises stimulate our brains in interesting ways, doctor Cy,
who makes the brains and Petri dishes, she suggested it might.
Jim is not a scientist, as he likes to say.
He's the guinea pig. Like, what's your family wants? Have
you gotten anyone else into it?
Speaker 15 (34:11):
No?
Speaker 16 (34:11):
No, one within my own family.
Speaker 15 (34:13):
Friends, yeah, yeah, friends, Strangers, I mean mostly strangers.
Speaker 3 (34:18):
The thing is, I like Jim so much. Do I
really think making one hundred kids mirrorright is going to
produce a class of Da Vinci's I don't. But then
two of those strangers who have since become Jim's good friends, Joyna,
is in the park. The group meets up regularly like
this in the afternoons.
Speaker 2 (34:38):
There you go.
Speaker 3 (34:40):
They're like a pack of Golden Retrievers, bounding around chasing
balls and frisbees with abandon, and there's so much joy
in it. After a while, Jim sends me out to
go catch the sunset by the beach. He insists that
you're missing out on the experience if you travel all
the way to San Diego and don't take it in.
(35:02):
So for twenty minutes, I sit and watch people surf
and do tai chi. I watch kids play on the
sand as guitars drown on in the background. I turn
off my phone and try to be present, watching hues
of pink and orange overwhelm the sky until it all
(35:30):
fades to black. Chapter five, George. If you listen to
(36:08):
the first season of the show, you might remember George.
Back then, he had a complicated love life and a
killer Jeff Goldblum impression. Also, he keeps track of everything,
including all of his online quiz results.
Speaker 16 (36:25):
Yeah, I am C three PO because I'm neurotic and
people pleaser, Sex and the City. I'm a Charlotte, a romantic,
annoyingly moral, literary character. You are holden call Field highly
intelligent and sensitive, but also very cynical. If you don't
get it together, you might have an emotional breakdown.
Speaker 3 (36:46):
George's an LA based comedian and actor, and since that
episode he's become a friend and as it turns out
he's been interested in longevity for years. He'd be the
first admit that he can be a little obsessive when
it comes to self improvement.
Speaker 16 (37:01):
Until like last year, I was fasting until now the
green powder ag one and the racy mushroom, chocolate mushroom.
Now when I brush my teeth, I balance on one foot.
I have a really nice probiotic. It's an Omega three
fish oil, because I find it very hard to eat
psychedelic therapy for my mental I don't think dark chocolate's
killing anybody.
Speaker 3 (37:19):
Part of his practice now includes sauna in multiple times
a week, so of course we started our conversation in
a sauna.
Speaker 6 (37:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (37:29):
It just it just feels like so healthy or something,
you know.
Speaker 16 (37:32):
I think, well it is, Yeah, like the finn Finland
figured it out.
Speaker 6 (37:37):
You had no question, So tell me.
Speaker 3 (37:39):
How you got Missunas and with sauna, as it turns out,
are a really nice way to start a day, but
not a great way to capture audio, partially because bros
kept walking in and out talking about how fire their
gym routines were. So George and I continued the discussion
over lunch at a very la restaurant Cafe Gratitude. Every
(38:00):
item on the menu is plant based and also titled
to express your gratitude. I Am Glorious is a blackened
tempe caesar rap I am Whole is a kimchi and
squash bowl.
Speaker 16 (38:12):
It's a macrobiotic I think she'll help you live forever.
Speaker 3 (38:19):
George is ordered an irev the glatte, and we laugh
when we realize it's called I Am Immortal. After we
order some very self affirming menu items, we start chatting
about his family.
Speaker 16 (38:31):
My cousins were always over. A lot of them lived
in the neighborhood I lived in. We're all walking distance.
Speaker 3 (38:37):
And also their roots in Nikorea, a Greek island with
near mythical status in the longevity world. It's famous for
being a blue zone.
Speaker 6 (38:46):
A refresher on blue zones. Those so called blue zones
are geographical locations where people are said to live longer
than elsewhere, include Okinawa, the Nakoya Peninsula in Costa Rica,
and yes children Ikaria, Greece.
Speaker 3 (39:07):
There's a lot of controversy about the idea of blue zones,
whether they're accurate or wishful thinking or just marketing class
The blue zones are one of the persistent longevity myths.
Speaker 6 (39:20):
In the nineteen nineties, Italian researchers began looking into longevity
on Sardinia, an isolated island with little genetic diversity. They
named their project AKA short for Akananos, a Sardinian phrase
meaning may you live to one hundred.
Speaker 3 (39:38):
The original theory in Sardinia and other blue zones is
that the people were genetically superior to the rest of us,
that their longevity was based on their DNA, But over
the years we started to question whether lifestyle is actually
more of a factor. When I met doctor nir Barzilai,
one of the first things I asked him about was
blue zones.
Speaker 10 (39:58):
I think the blue zone people themselves are claiming, no,
this is a lifespin exposure. You have to be born there,
you have to be conceived there, you have to grow
up because puberty is important and development is important. So
I'm not sure that this experiment can be actually transferred.
Speaker 3 (40:17):
I was disappointed by the answer. Moving to a blue
zone felt like the easiest and most pleasurable way to
extend my life. It does not seem fair that they
have to be born in one, but near does make
space for a little hope.
Speaker 10 (40:33):
That's another experiment. Can we move one hundred people you
know in their forties to blue zones and measure something
and show that they're becoming younger.
Speaker 6 (40:46):
Children. Do you want to live as old as a Sardinian?
Just incorporate low intensity activity like walking into your routine.
Reduce calorie intake by twenty percent, avoid media, processed foods,
drink red wine, and moderation. Find a life purpose reduced
a participate in the spiritual community, to make family a priority,
and be surrounded by people who live in a similar way.
Follow these simple steps and before you know it, you'll
(41:10):
be one hundred two.
Speaker 3 (41:19):
So George spent summers in Korea as a kid, and
he goes back as often as he can to visit relatives,
and he says, there is something different about it there.
It's not just the Mediterranean diet or the fact that
you can swim in the age in It's something harder
to capture.
Speaker 16 (41:36):
There is a slow socializing community, like a relaxed approach
to it all. There isn't that capitalist drive. I mean
each ideas also has a real communist history, Yeah, really
socialist and still and so that whole like I got
to get more and more and more. They really scoff.
Speaker 3 (41:55):
At Ikorea, George reminded me when we were in the
sauna is named for Icarus, the mythical boy who flew
too close to the sun.
Speaker 16 (42:06):
The myth is that he fell there and there's a
rock and the water where he fell. Really it's below
my village and it's where I proposed that's amazing, and
everybody's like, symbolically, what does that mean. I was like, no, no, no,
it's just I think it's one of the most beautiful
points in the island.
Speaker 3 (42:27):
To George, the rock was just beautiful. But for Iicoreians,
it's a reminder of the perils of man's hubris and
the need to appreciate what you have instead of reaching.
Speaker 16 (42:40):
Like my grandfather built a big house in our village
and they call it the Castle. It's like three bedrooms,
but it's kind of embarrassing because there's a tall, poppy thing.
You know.
Speaker 3 (43:04):
George and I have that first gent thing in common,
and I tell him how visiting India and specifically this
little hilltop town that my grandparents lived in in the eighties,
always felt like a time warp. There were only two
TV stations and you spent your evenings playing cards on
the verandah, or going on walks and making evening calls
to visit neighbors. It felt slower. Life wasn't just manageable,
(43:30):
It felt like something to savor and derive pleasure from
because time moved so differently there. It all felt a
certain type of dreamy. George tells me he has this
bit he does for his cousins to make them laugh,
just showing them how purposefully and quickly big city Americans
(43:53):
walk around.
Speaker 16 (43:54):
I got up and I was like, this is how
I would walk in New York. And I went fast
walked across the plazia, pretending like I was going to
the cafe. And they were laughing so hard, and they're like,
why would you.
Speaker 3 (44:06):
Ever do that? What I really wanted to know is
do people in Korea think about longevity as much as
two stressed out Americans do. George asked his cousin that
exact question.
Speaker 16 (44:19):
I was like, what do you think? And he was like,
nobody thinks about longevity, don't as a shit.
Speaker 3 (44:25):
What really matters in Korea isn't science, it's connection. It's
multi generations meeting and hanging out in local cafes. Old
people and young people alike, never worrying about the time,
and talking for hours. George tells me about these parties
where everyone in the village gathers to eat and drink
and dance.
Speaker 16 (44:45):
Fani idia are these Saints Day parties. People will come
from like five pm until the sun comes up. There
will be a band that plays the whole time. People
will dance pretty much the whole night.
Speaker 3 (45:00):
There's something so appealing about being somewhere else slowing down
my life, about coffee dates with friends and no deadlines,
and music and feasts and laughing with people of all
ages and hanging out in the town square into the night.
It's not like I don't see people in New York.
I'm just so busy walking fast from one place to another,
(45:22):
working or trying to keep my life together. And it's
not quite as simple as just slow down and choose
a different pace, because the pace of New York is
set collectively, just like it is in the Korea. George
has also seen what happened in his own family when
they left a Korea.
Speaker 16 (45:40):
My grandfather is the great example. You had, like what
is a quad druple bypass? When in seventies he had
a quadruple vipass. So like I think he came here
and just ate the American diets who assimilate. And it
wasn't until his bypass or agree that he got really healthy.
(46:01):
He started eating like his mother taught him, started exercising religiously,
walking ten thousand steps a day. I couldn't keep up
with him, so he became a health freak in his seventies.
Speaker 3 (46:12):
So George is careful, really careful. He saw on us
four to five times a week. He climbs and lifts,
he watches what he eats. He keeps an eye on
it all.
Speaker 16 (46:22):
Like I was one of the first. Like you better
be drinking water all day. People very annoying.
Speaker 3 (46:27):
But he's got no interest in longevity if it means
sucking the life out of life. And that's why he
tells me he'll never follow Brian Johnson's ultra strict habits.
Speaker 16 (46:37):
I mean, really, it's like an anti life photocol. You're
giving up all the things that bring froid to this
Planet's spending all night with your friends talking great food.
He's eating the same meal every day and has this
very strict he stops eating at eleven am is when
he has his dinner kill me.
Speaker 18 (47:05):
My name is Vito Ricci and I am seventy eight
years old.
Speaker 5 (47:10):
Do you think if you could, would you want to
live forever?
Speaker 8 (47:13):
No? No, you would have.
Speaker 18 (47:15):
I wouldn't want to live forever. I mean the only
way I would, you know, since we're talking about fantasies. Yes,
if I could be totally healthy forever, you know, why
not when I'm thinking of it, I'll kill myself so
to live forever. It's just a fantasy, So yeah, I
might as well. Can I fly to.
Speaker 3 (47:37):
Months ago? As I'd walked out of doctor Primus's office
and met a patient whose mother also happened to be
a patient. She was this vibrant one hundred and six
year old who still loved to dance. And it makes
me think about the midnight beasts and village dances in Korea,
where age isn't a barrier to participating.
Speaker 16 (47:56):
It's a circle dance. Each island has a unique step.
Everybody holds each other up with their arms. They don't
hold hands. They're holding each other up so they can
do these more difficult movements.
Speaker 3 (48:07):
There's such beauty in this idea of holding each other up.
A town built on this land where Icarus first believed
he was a god, then was shown how clearly he wasn't.
A place of community but also humility.
Speaker 16 (48:23):
A person who takes the front is usually a really
good dancer, but they never take up too much space.
They might do some flourishes, they show up a little bit,
then you go back into the group.
Speaker 3 (48:33):
As George describes the night, it reminds me of the
Assyrian circle dance we did at my wedding.
Speaker 16 (48:38):
You are sweating by the end of this. Oh it
gets faster.
Speaker 3 (48:42):
Or the ross leelas I did as a kid.
Speaker 16 (48:44):
And you're exhilarated. All night. You keep getting up to dance.
Speaker 3 (48:47):
Of the ecstasy of moving together, the beauty of the
chance billowing through the hot night air, hand drums pulsing,
and those impossible to describe feelings of love and intoxication
that make your heart feels so full. I do think
it's an enduring love that plays into all of these communities.
(49:10):
I felt it in the way Jim lives his life,
the power of his sweet oddball meet up with friends,
smiling and running through a park and stealing time to
bask in the awe of a sunset. They love one another.
It's love bound up and care and respect that has
you lifting up others, whether it's my father in law,
(49:32):
the boy who needed work in elementary school to put
food on his family's table, who never forgot and made
a life of giving, or the elders on the hot
summer night being lifted arm in arm the same way
they lifted others in their youth, soaking up the magic
of the night and dancing like everyone's watching because they are.
(49:57):
That love exists here to You can witness it in
a little center in Brooklyn, surrounded by people who didn't
have the easiest lives, but who've lived longer than they've
ever thought they would and are thriving in community thousands
of miles from the nearest blue zone.
Speaker 10 (50:23):
My husband had just died.
Speaker 12 (50:25):
I know, excuse me, what the hell I was going
to do with my life? But I came here, and
I feel like it's been a gift from God. You know,
even at this age, you want to feel like you
belong somewhere that people could you know.
Speaker 18 (50:43):
I think being around young people keeps your brain thinking young.
I assume that helps knowing you, my dear, it is
keeping us young.
Speaker 6 (50:53):
Ye.
Speaker 17 (50:54):
I would like to live as long as I'm healthy
and able to help myself, I don't mind a little
a campaign. But if I'm bed bond or injured, I
don't want to live very long. But if I'm healthy
and I can help myself and help society, I'd like
to live to two hundred years.
Speaker 3 (51:28):
On the next episode, I traveled to San Francisco to
visit a few tech communes and hacker houses. But even
in a house brimming with utopic ideals and impressive founders,
it turns out community can't fix everything.
Speaker 11 (51:42):
We have a laundry room, which is getting a lot
of love recently, probably one of the most hyped parts
of the house. But why we had a fiasco with
a laundry where I just I wasn't working for three
weeks and so I was a huge trauma bonding area.
We called the maintenance. It hooked up to the wrong
machines and then to get thirty dollars sort of coins,
so a quarters to go and we're all crypto, like,
(52:04):
who has coins?
Speaker 6 (52:05):
You know?
Speaker 3 (52:06):
That's next time on How to Live Forever Friends, We
(52:44):
did it. It means so much to me that you
listen to this sweet and ridiculous circus of a show.
How to Live Forever is a production of Kaleidoscope and
iHeart Podcast. It is hosted and written by me Mongay's Sheartigular.
But it is also such a gift that I get
to work with my friends truly. This week, I am
starting with Mietra Bunshahi and my cat loving supervising producer
(53:06):
Mary Philip Sandy. They were the ones who went out
and captured that chorus of voices from the remarkable and
inspiring people at the Fort Green Council's Older adult clubs.
Thank you to Leshana Lawrence for coordinating our visit there.
Jeremy Bent, who narrated our nineteen fifties like Blue Zone
educational reel, thank you so much. It tickled me to
no end. And I can't believe I forgot this in
(53:29):
the last episode. But John McGarry. You might know John
as the brilliant director of the indie flick The Men,
or for punching Jason Schwartzman in the face in Behind
the Temples. But I've never said this to anyone before.
Thank you so much for heckling me. Okay, So, my crew,
this show and my life is eped by the beautiful
(53:50):
Lizzie Jacobs, my love who I drive crazy every single
week not hitting deadlines. Also, it is story edited by
the genius Mark Lotto. He keeps saying, let's take this
sound like Harry met Sally, or let's turn this part
into a ridiculous nineteen fifties educational doc or whatever, and
he makes everything he touches so much better. Also, thank
you to the only person who actually understands biology on
(54:11):
our team, science producer Mark Steven Allen Anna from Computer
City Productions, our genius genius mixer. Thank you for giving
us so much of your time and talent to make
this beautiful series sound as special as it does. It
really means a ton. Also, how good is the music?
It is all thanks to Botany at Zadi Records and
Bliss sampsa who's gonzo ministry of silly walk style videos
(54:34):
on Insta make me laugh every week. If you want
to hear more of their music, and you do, we
made you a mixtape, just go check out the show notes.
Also special thanks to Lucas Riley who put me to
the Chicago Miracle Water which yes I know, fact Checkers
is not in Chicago, It's in the Chicago Land area
(54:54):
and iHeart The show is executive produced by my good
pals Ali Perry and Katrina Norvel and Kaleidiscope. I've got
to thank my partners, Ozmalishan and Cosaslinas. Also Julian Nutter,
Sina Zaki, thank you so much for lending your ears
to this episode. Christy Dara, Agne David, thank you so
much for throwing us a Bonker's party. Rachel Strom our
(55:16):
brilliant legal mind. Thank you for attending that party and
also for everything else you do for me. Also Al
and Vahi Me thank you for the marketing and making
this show look good in the world. The kiddos, Henry
and Ruby, Julian, Brenda lou rema Enzo, Pearl, Baby lay
On and this week Maya, Ri and Aaron you're getting
(55:38):
a shout out too, even though I hope you are
at home watching Cars three on Loop instead of listening
to this. Also Shantan Sorrow and Yes Barkley for not
holding a grudge about missing our picnic. The voice at
the top with bird song sprinkled in. That is my
good friend and someone who picked me up when I
was really down. Caitlin Thompson Caitlin runs one of my
favorite magazines, racket which if you love tennis style or
(56:01):
just need to pretty up your coffee table and show
people you're interesting, it is the very very best you
can find a racketbag dot com. Thank you for everyone
who participated in the show. Everyone I've forgotten, but especially
my in laws, John and Betty Jacobs, who are just
the most inspiring and loving and generous people, which comes
through in all three of their beautiful kids. And as always,
(56:23):
this show is for my dad and my Amma, both
of whom I thank my lucky stars for. Thank you
so much for listening.
Popular Podcasts
Betrayal Weekly
Betrayal Weekly is back for a new season. Every Thursday, Betrayal Weekly shares first-hand accounts of broken trust, shocking deceptions, and the trail of destruction they leave behind. Hosted by Andrea Gunning, this weekly ongoing series digs into real-life stories of betrayal and the aftermath. From stories of double lives to dark discoveries, these are cautionary tales and accounts of resilience against all odds. From the producers of the critically acclaimed Betrayal series, Betrayal Weekly drops new episodes every Thursday. If you would like to share your story, you can reach out to the Betrayal Team by emailing them at betrayalpod@gmail.com and follow us on Instagram at @betrayalpod and @glasspodcasts. Please join our Substack for additional exclusive content, curated book recommendations, and community discussions. Sign up FREE by clicking this link Beyond Betrayal Substack. Join our community dedicated to truth, resilience, and healing. Your voice matters! Be a part of our Betrayal journey on Substack.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.