November 26, 2025 • 43 mins
The first time Alex Espinoza got cruised, he felt as if a “mutant power” had been awakened inside him. This new internal radar helped him find secret sex spaces where he uncovered another hidden strength: his dick gave him power over men who might have otherwise rejected a queer Latino man with a disability. Using his special gifts, Alex was able to build his self-confidence and dispel the feelings of shame he says are common for queer people from immigrant families. It also gave him plenty of material for his hit 2019 book “Cruising: An Intimate History of a Radical Pastime”. In this episode, Alex teaches Gabe, Chris, and our listeners what he’s learned from a lifetime of cruising, and offers practical tips for queer cruisers of color and queer cruisers with disabilities. School is now in session. It’s time for CRUISING 301.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, viewers, Sniffy's Cruising Confessions is an explicit podcast about
queer sex. Filter dirty words and unfiltered descriptions of sexual activities.
If hearing about orgies, anonymous sex, kink, fetish, and more
offends your sensibilities, you might want to skip this. Viewer
discretion is advised. It's definitely not for kids.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Put your pussy up, put your put your pussy up,
Put your pussy up. Put put your pussy. Welcome to
Sniffy's Cruising Confessions. I'm Gabelon Sadez and I'm christtison Rosso.
Each week we explore the sublime world of queer sex, cruising,
and relationships. We talk to queer folks of all kinds.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
We'll ask some questions, swap sex stories, share intimate revelations,
and provide practical advice that you can use at home.
Jo the put put Joe, pussy, put job, put put
your put, put.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Your put up. So Chris, so game, what are we
chatting about today? Oh gosh, we're doing a deep dive
I think, and even deeper dive. Yeah, into cruising, into cruising.
That's right, this is gonna be our cruising through a
one episode. But Chris I feel like at this point
we should be experts. I mean, I came into this
kind of our radio as an expert. I see, yes,
(01:10):
so brilliantly stated in season one. Yeah they have. They
watched me in action, Chris.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
Is mech cranes like an owl when we pass people
on the street.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
I'm like, if that's not commitment to the art form,
I don't know what is. I'm wondering. Though.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
We host a podcast called Cruising Confessions. We have done
two episodes on cruising. Yes, we should be experts on paper,
but I feel like there's still a law for us
to discuss.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
For sure, And I'm always a student, so I'm always
willing to learn more.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
If you have listened to this podcast, as we mentioned,
for the past two seasons we've covered cruising, you might
have heard our Cruising one on one episode with Lee
Horrera who we love, and are cruising two to one
episode with Professor Joel Florencio, who we lovingly call Professor
pig Well.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
Today, students, it's time for another lesson. That's right, the
bell has rung. Cruising through a one begins now and
your professor for today's class, incredible Alex Espinoza.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
I am so excited about this guest. Alex's twenty nineteen
book Cruising is a pretty essential read for anybody interested
in learning the history of cruising, but it also offers
uniquely personal insights into his experiences being a queer, disabled
Latino in cruising spaces.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
On today's episode, we're going to be talking with Alex
about what he learned about himself and cruising while writing
his book, how things have changed since it's writing, and
get some practical tips for queer cruises of color. Please
welcome to Sniffley's Cruising Confessions. Alex Espinoza.
Speaker 3 (02:32):
Thank you for having me. It's great to be here
with both of you.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
So excited, SOULEI, thank you for being here. I'm really
sexy that you hear. We both are.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
We're a huge frend of the book and we're so
happy that you're hear from California.
Speaker 3 (02:42):
Right all the way from Los Angeles.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Amazing. Thanks for making the track. How's the weather hot?
Speaker 3 (02:47):
But you know where it's really hot?
Speaker 2 (02:48):
Where on Sniffy's Oh? I love that?
Speaker 1 (02:53):
Are you an Avid Sniffy's user in La define Avid?
Speaker 3 (02:58):
Okay, I do have a profile?
Speaker 2 (03:01):
Okay? Is its profile or is it an anonymous.
Speaker 3 (03:03):
It's a registered profile.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
Okay, you're like, yeah, the photos I.
Speaker 4 (03:07):
Put the work in. I don't mess around when it
comes to that.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
Well, if there's one thing we take seriously, it's cruising,
Yeah exactly.
Speaker 4 (03:16):
But if people want to be anonymous, that's completely fine also.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
All right, So before we dive too much into our
personal cruising practices, I do want to kind of start
us off big picture.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
I don't want to talk about your book Cruising.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
It has become one of the major go tos for
anybody interested in learning about cruising. When you started writing it,
what was sort of the inspiration behind it, and was
the reaction what you expected.
Speaker 4 (03:37):
I wasn't looking to write a book about cruising. That
was the last thing I was looking to do. But
I just happened to be having a conversation with my
editor at the time, and I was talking about how
I felt as though I think the literary landscape when
it came to queer writing at the time was a
little too polite. I think it was catering to a
(03:58):
non queer lens. And I kept saying, like, why can't
we go back to that era of sixties writers like
John Reshie or Jim Grimsley, who were writing very unapologetically
about sex and body fluids and just everything right. That
was my entree into queer literature. And then my editor
and her partner took me out to lunch one day
(04:19):
and they cruised me. Actually, they said, we think that
you have it in you to write a book about cruising.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
You got professionally cruised. I did.
Speaker 4 (04:26):
I got professionally cruise. And I thought about it and
thought about it and thought about it, and I think
the reason why I said yes to it was because
I really wanted to bring in the perspective of not
just a queer person of color, but a queer person
of color with the disability. And I said, you know,
that's an angle that I think I can I can
lend to it. That was the genesis of the book.
(04:47):
And I knew that when I was going to write it,
I was going to have to put my own self
into the book. And I'm like, you know what, I'm
going to write about my first experience. I'm going to
write about, you know, these sex clubs I've been to.
I'm going to write about all these places, and I'll
worry about what people think about it. Later, I was
writing something that was kind of in between scholarship and
personal memoir because I'm not a scholar, you know, I'm
(05:08):
not I teach creative writing. And you know, one of
the things that was important for me were the interviews
that I did with a lot of the men, and
there were a lot that I didn't include.
Speaker 5 (05:17):
Wow.
Speaker 4 (05:18):
And you know, for all of all of the men
that I interviewed, what was fantastic was just the complete
intimacy of the details that they remember from me years ago.
You know, the color of the tiles in the bathroom
at their college bookstore, the smell like the they remember,
you know, the graffiti on the walls and the stalls.
(05:41):
Details that are just like when you're a creative writer,
Like I tell my students, like, that's the shit that
I want you pulling.
Speaker 3 (05:47):
Yeah, right, and they had it all.
Speaker 4 (05:49):
I knew that I wanted to be in conversation with
that because I had denied that for so many years.
I'd been you know, participating in it and doing it
and feeling really ashamed and you know, carrying this cross,
feeling like I'm the only one that's like this, you
know muro in Spanish. And then I have these conversations
with these men and they were like, no, I did too. Yeah, right,
(06:13):
And it was revelatory. You know, it was revelatory for me.
So it was a really fantastic experience.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
Well, now, Cochino Pig is quite empowering.
Speaker 3 (06:21):
It's very empowered.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
I was like, everybody's acino, everyone everyone's So I'm curious.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
Take us back to sort of the beginning of your
first encounters with cruising. Did you find cruising or did
it find you?
Speaker 3 (06:37):
Oh, it found me? Tell me about that it found me.
And I included this in the book.
Speaker 4 (06:43):
I grew up in the San Gabriel Valley in the
nineteen eighties in La the youngest of eleven. Wow right,
I know that's the reaction. And you know, hyper catholic.
I was born with the disability, very insecure. I have alopisia.
At a time when I think, you know, a lot
(07:04):
of us are are coming into our own and discovering
our urges and our desires, my body was starting to
betray me and it was, you know, losing my hair.
And I was an athletic. I couldn't do a lot
of the things that my peers were doing. I knew
that I was gay, and I knew that. You know,
I liked men. I remember being very attracted to Harry
(07:25):
chests because I don't have.
Speaker 3 (07:27):
Hair, what you don't have. I worked at the mall.
Speaker 4 (07:31):
It was my first job, and I was sixteen years
old and I was waiting at the bus stop. I
was going to the mall to get my paycheck. And
this guy in a white Hyundai Excel, say, there are
the details again.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
I was.
Speaker 3 (07:47):
El hatchback blue interior. Still remember all this.
Speaker 4 (07:52):
Drove by and pulled up to the bus stop, looked
at me and drove away. And he had spiky hair,
I remember, and he was wearing a like a teal
colored tank top.
Speaker 3 (08:05):
This was the eighties. Yeah, I mean it's like total
Miami vice.
Speaker 4 (08:13):
And he drove by and looked at me and then
drove away, and then drove by again and did the
same thing. And I was I had a walkman. I
was listening to my Smith's cassette. Yeah okay, And he
drove by. The third time, he pulled over and pretended
to check the tire.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
Oh wow.
Speaker 4 (08:31):
He walked around and like kicked it and then looked
at me and then drove away. And the fourth time
he pulled over and he said, do you want to ride?
Speaker 2 (08:39):
Oh?
Speaker 4 (08:40):
And I looked at him and I said yes. And
the minute I said yes, I knew exactly what was
going to happen. And he took me to a field
and you know, we did our thing. I remember, he
didn't drive me all the way to the mall. He
just left me at another bus stop, which I thought
was kind of shitty.
Speaker 3 (08:58):
That damn after I did what I did the least
I could.
Speaker 4 (09:01):
You know, I mean, come on, I that was a
pretty good blow job. Say, it was my first, and
I knew exactly what I was doing.
Speaker 3 (09:09):
Yes, it was just instinctual.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:11):
And I was like, and he didn't even drop me off.
Damn them all. He didn't leave me in front of the.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
Well maybe he did have is shoes with the tire
you never No, I don't know.
Speaker 3 (09:19):
The tire looked fine to me.
Speaker 4 (09:21):
And then the funny thing is he said to me, hey,
if you know, if you have any other friends, oh,
just let them know I'm usually at the park. So
I was like, okay, And then I take the bus
and I get I get to work. And I had
one gay friend back then. He was this Filipino guy,
named Ed, and Ed was very out and very proud
(09:41):
and very flamboyant, and d used to cruise and I was,
you know, it's my first time. It was I was
a virgin and I said to Ed, Oh my god,
you're not gonna believe what just happened to me. I
said what, And I said, I looked up with this
guy and it was so hot and he had a
huge dick and stopped me goes, wait a minute, was
(10:04):
he in a white Hyundai?
Speaker 3 (10:05):
No?
Speaker 2 (10:07):
No?
Speaker 3 (10:07):
And I said yes, and he looked at me and
said it wasn't that big. So that was my entre.
Oh wow.
Speaker 4 (10:17):
And then after that it just it was like this
homing beak And that was kind of my first cruising experience,
was that. And you know the strange thing is is
I still remember how just instinctual it was like it
was like this part of my DNA, you know, it
was like a mutant power that was lang dormant inside
(10:39):
of me, that like sprang Forth, And the moment that
that happened, I realized that there was this whole other world.
Speaker 3 (10:46):
It was like almost like.
Speaker 4 (10:47):
A parallel world that existed outside of the norm that
I could enter into and exit whenever I wanted, and
I felt like that was really powerful.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
It is kind of funny how instinctual it always let's
it sort of rust happened, Like I think about my
first cruising experience and it was just instinctual. Like I
don't know, I guess we're just born queer.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
I mean, it's funny the way the body responds when
you're like, oh, something feels good, right, especially after years
of being told these are the people you should be
attracted to. It's like I tried making out with a
girl in the sixth grade, Like it felt weird, and
then the first time I kissed the boy, I was like, oh,
what's that like?
Speaker 2 (11:22):
You know what?
Speaker 1 (11:22):
I like?
Speaker 2 (11:23):
You just cut your body is gonna give you the
cues and you pick them up.
Speaker 4 (11:26):
Yeah, I kissed ahead a lettuce once. That's what it
felt like kissing a girl.
Speaker 3 (11:30):
Oh for me, Wait, I didn't. I didn't like make
out with the head of lettuce, but like I kissed
it on a dare.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
Yeah, but how did this come about? That?
Speaker 3 (11:38):
That's a whole lot of stuff, Chris.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
We've watched people fuck pumpkins. I think kiss lettuce. Yeah,
I think we're going to be fine. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
Well, I mean, I will say I'm kind of shocked
that you had your first cruising experience in the Los
Angeles area because I grew up in Florida.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
That's a heavy driving.
Speaker 3 (11:56):
There weren't a lot.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
Of places to be outside and walking.
Speaker 4 (11:59):
Yeah, and it was for me, it became a very
different experience when I started driving, you know, when I
and then you know, back then, it was all word
of mouth, you know. It was it was my friend Ed,
you know, Size Queen and my friend Eric who you
know who. They were the ones that would would tell me, like,
(12:19):
there's this alley, you know. I mean, it was like
West Hollywood, or it.
Speaker 3 (12:22):
Was Griffith Park.
Speaker 4 (12:24):
You had to go to these places, and rarely did
it happen spontaneously. We didn't have you know, apps, and
we didn't have you know, you know, the access to
the technology that we have now, So it was a
very different kind of experience. It was really spontaneous and
it could happen, you know, any time in any place.
(12:44):
I think now we're seeing cruising taking on a new form.
You know, a lot of the conversations I've had with
men over the years since the publication of the book,
is you know, there are the purists to say, no
cruising is you know this, it's it's pre Internet, it's
you know, it's going to you know, a Macy's bathroom
and waiting or attacking your foot.
Speaker 3 (13:04):
Or it's this or that.
Speaker 4 (13:06):
And I think I'm of the mind where it's just
it's evolving into something different, you know, it's it's just
becoming a new thing.
Speaker 2 (13:13):
So, as a brown man living with a disability, what
has been your experience navigating queer or social spaces.
Speaker 4 (13:20):
I grew up in a time when, again and in
a culture, in a gay culture where it was all
about looks. I remember West Hollywood in the eighties and nineties, it.
Speaker 3 (13:29):
Was all about looks.
Speaker 4 (13:30):
It was all about you know, the hard bodies and
the great hair and the you know, all of those things.
It was very superficial. I always felt like I was
the ugly duckling of my group of friends where we
would go to these clubs in West Hollywood. We're all
like closeted, you know, Mexican queers. We'd get in the
car and we'd drive to West Hollywood and we go
party and they would always get invited to dance, and
(13:51):
I was always the one sort of against the wall,
just like watching and like like drinking, you know, a
cocktail or something. And so I never felt comfortable in
those spaces. I felt very insecure. I didn't know what
to do with my body. And it wasn't until I
started cruising that I realized that physically below the belt
(14:12):
I was special.
Speaker 3 (14:15):
And yeah, and let's.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
Say ED would have given you a good would have
given me a great review.
Speaker 4 (14:24):
And so it wasn't until I was like, oh, I
get it now. So my confidence grew in no penitent
it grew enormously, and so I realized that I could
wield power, that my disability didn't matter, that I could
you know, use it as a way to gain confidence.
(14:47):
So it was a really unique and strange and wonderful
experience for me that that taught me a lot about
myself and my body.
Speaker 2 (14:54):
You know.
Speaker 3 (14:55):
It was it was okay if I went to the clubs.
Speaker 4 (14:57):
And wasn't looked at because I looked at certain or
I had hair or this or that, but you know,
you'd look at me if we were in another environment,
you know, and then some so I kind of was
able to walk between those two worlds right in a
way that my friends couldn't. I felt incredibly empowered and
(15:17):
very special. But it took me a long time. It
took me years and years and years of soul searching
to be proud of the fact that I was a
sexual person, and that I could be a sexual person
with the disability, that I didn't have to be this
sort of like, you know, very humble and very I'm
so sorry, you know, please give me any kind of
affection or attention that you feel that you can throw
(15:40):
at me. I was like, no, fuck that It was
my sexual experiences that taught me how to be confident
and how to walk a little more proudly in this world.
The minute I realized that that was the moment I
met my partner of twenty five years. Was that moment
I realized, like, Okay, I'm good with who this person is.
Speaker 3 (15:56):
And that was in like two thousand, so.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
Alex we talked a bit about how these hierarchies are
formed in kind of public facing queer spaces, right standing
by the wall at the club, waiting for the muscle
guy in West Dollywood to come grab you. How are
these hierarchies functioning or maybe torn apart in queer cruising spaces.
Speaker 4 (16:16):
In cruising spaces, and a lot of men that I
talked to is people assume different roles and kind of
exaggerate them. You know, you can subvert these roles in
ways that you can't in regular society. You know, if
you're a brown person, if you're you know, a bus
boy or you know, a gardener, and that's all that
society sees you.
Speaker 3 (16:37):
In these cruising spaces, you can become somebody else. You
can totally flip the script.
Speaker 4 (16:42):
It was I guess it was that was the first
time I learned that that there was a kind of
a kink to it. I remember doing that thinking it
was really hot and I liked doing it, but I
didn't I didn't have the language back then to be
able to articulate it. It wasn't until I became educated, when
I when I went to school and I learned about
things like hierarchies and those big buzzwords that we used
to use in academia that I realized like, oh, that's
(17:03):
what I was doing in these anonymous spaces and these
spaces where you don't exchange names. You see how these
notions of flipping scripts and and and and playing off
of each other and and donning a persona really play
out in fundamentally potent ways that they don't, you know,
in other spheres. When I was in graduate school and
(17:26):
as an undergrad and then realizing I know exactly what
that is. Oh yeah, because you know I hooked up
with that guy and he was white and he made
me do this, and you know I was just brown
Mexican and he wanted me. You know, it's like, I'm
proof that you can walk in those spaces and assume
that role and dominate in ways that society tells you,
as a poor brown kid you're not supposed to.
Speaker 1 (17:46):
I think there's something that you were kind of hinting
at when you told us that story about that kind
of aha moment where you're like, I've got a big
dick and it's valued in this space, and it teaches
you to value more of yourself besides facer dick. Right,
But it does seem like it's not like going to
the bar and waiting by the wall and being like, oh,
I hope the haughty picks me. It's looking looking back
and gestures and like pointing the eye to our areas
(18:09):
you want to highlight. Right, there are different ways that
you can kind of make the approach when cruising that
you can again, you know.
Speaker 4 (18:16):
What it is, it's like, fuck the hot you picking me,
I'm gonna pick you right.
Speaker 3 (18:20):
It's not a question of whether you want me, It's
a question of whether I want you. Yeah, and you
know what, You're gonna want me?
Speaker 4 (18:26):
Yeah, because wait till you pull my till I see
my my pants down, literally waiting. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:35):
When you you spoke about when you were writing your book,
you did a lot of interviews, and I'm wondering what
was a commonality through all of your interviews.
Speaker 4 (18:42):
A lot of men that I that I interviewed really
were driven by this uh insatiable lust.
Speaker 3 (18:51):
I don't want to say lust, but like a it
was a rush almost.
Speaker 4 (18:54):
The danger of it, the spontaneity of it, the energy
that comes with that. They all talked about how exciting
and hot that was. This idea that you know, you're
out there and you're doing something that you're not supposed
to be doing, that you're not supposed to be participating in,
and you're doing it in a public space is really hot.
But that's what makes cruising so unique is that you're
(19:17):
doing it in these spaces that are you know, for
lack of a better word, outlawed, right, and you're breaking
the law, and you're doing it because you're thumbing your
nose up to this larger society that's constantly told us
that our wants and our desires don't fit into the
larger mainstream narrative that we've been fed. A lot of them,
(19:38):
you know, love the thrill and the chase of it.
They love going back and repeating the steps. I think
that sort of and as an immigrant who's studied a
lot of migration, you know, patterns of migration, that's a
migratory pattern, right, it's going back and again and again
and again in the same space and crossing it over
and over. A lot of men talked about the almost
(20:00):
almost like meditative You can participate in this act and
the veil of reality gets torn, and suddenly that bathroom
in that Macy's becomes more than just a bathroom in
a Macy's. It becomes a really special, intimate, very powerful,
impotent space that changes the air around you. And then
(20:23):
you finish, you go off and do your thing, and
then the next person that walks into that bathroom is
just trying to buy shoes that Macy's.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
So the book has been out for a while and
I'm wondering, is there something that you left out that
you wish you would have been included?
Speaker 4 (20:38):
You know, I think I would have liked to have
included more of the experiences of this younger generation of
gay men who are on you know, a prep and
taking all of you know, these preventative steps, and it's
I think it's freed up a lot of it's led
the way for a lot of that sex positivity. And
you know, the funny thing is is the younger generation,
(20:59):
like my nephew you I had to explain to him
how frightening it was being queer in the nineties, getting
them to understand that that there was this fear about
getting AIDS and dying and being outed. But you couldn't
say no to it. You couldn't like, what do you
gonna do? Like become celibate. The conversations I had when
(21:19):
I was on book tour was I'd have, you know,
this younger generation of of of gay men who would
come up to me and would.
Speaker 3 (21:25):
Say, like, was it really that scary?
Speaker 2 (21:28):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (21:28):
And that goes to show you how much of our
history has been just completely obliterated, right, And why it's
important to have books, you know that that that traced
the trajectory you know, of this history, to have podcasts
that discuss it and and and shed light on it
and talk about it honestly, because we've we haven't been
doing that for so long, and you know, it's it's
(21:51):
led to, you know, not very good things.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
Sorry, emotion no, because I love this project and I
love what we do here. I am gonna cry sorry.
I do love what we do here, and I do
love the conversations that we're able to have, and what
we're doing here is really important.
Speaker 1 (22:14):
Yeah, well, I think that sounds like a good place
to take a break.
Speaker 2 (22:18):
When we come back, we're gonna hear Alex's tips and
tricks for both cruisers of color and disabled cruisers, and
maybe here a cruising confession or two.
Speaker 1 (22:25):
Don't go anywhere the spirit of ed compels you will
be right back, Welcome back. We've been having a lot
of fun and a very incredible discussion with author Alex Spinosa.
But in this act we're going to hear some practical
advice for both disabled cruisers and cruisers of color.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
What should disabled cruisers be thinking about when they're looking
for cruising spaces or things like that, or how should
they approach cruising.
Speaker 4 (22:54):
I think it's important to remember what your own sort
of limits and capabilities are, right like what you can
and can't do physically, and you have to let that
dictate how you cruise and the spaces that you occupy.
I think it's important for cruisers to remember that safety
(23:16):
is important, that their safety is a priority. When to
reveal your disability or when not to is you pretty
much have to gauge it depending on how the conversation's
going with the person. You have to get used to
and be comfortable with the possibility of rejection, right of
(23:36):
knowing that someone is not, you know, going to have
a taste for this or for that, and you as
a cruiser have to be comfortable with that. And I
think I think for cruisers of color, particularly Latinos, right now,
we're seeing because we're seeing a lot of things happening
in the major cities, like ice raids. If you're undocumented,
you know, I had plenty of conversations with men when
(23:58):
I was writing the book who talked about the fact
that they were the breadwinner of their family and if
they got arrested and sent back, then that was it.
So you know, remembering what's at stake for you, right
and letting that dictate engage how and when you participate
and in what you participated, and to stay informed. You know.
(24:22):
One of the things that I think is really fantastic
about some of these apps is that they do post warnings.
I've seen, you know on apps heads up, you know,
I saw ice raids here, or I saw cops here,
or you know, be wary of this park. So that's
a really handy tool that we need to start really
paying attention to and being a little more cognizant. So
(24:44):
I think I think it's all about education for me.
Speaker 1 (24:47):
And you were talking a bit about how to grapple
with rejection. Was there something that helped you sort of
deal with that in cruising spaces or to sort of
rediscover your confidence and keep looking after potentially fear seen
rejection walle cruising.
Speaker 4 (25:02):
I think it's just that knowing that there are plenty
of other fish in the sea, right that for all
of the times that I've been rejected, there have been
plenty of times when I haven't been and and just
just remembering that and putting that in perspective, and it's
all about recognizing that if you are going to participate
and play the game, know that you are participating in
(25:23):
an act that one has had a long you know history, right,
it's been around for a long time.
Speaker 3 (25:30):
And know that you are one in a series of.
Speaker 4 (25:34):
Many, many, many, many many men who have gone through
the exact same thing. There's there's solidarity in that. There's
solidarity in recognizing that.
Speaker 3 (25:42):
I think I've just become.
Speaker 4 (25:42):
A little wiser now and just been like, okay, well,
you know, if I go and there's no chemistry, then
that's fine, that's okay. You know what's the worst thing
that could happen right to me? You know at that moment,
my feelings get hurt.
Speaker 2 (25:56):
Yeah, right, okay, you know I'll get over it. Yeah,
my feelings have been hurt before. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And
I feel like a lot of times it's more about
that person than.
Speaker 3 (26:06):
It is about exactly exactly.
Speaker 2 (26:08):
I don't know what they're looking for, you to know
what their circumstances are. Like.
Speaker 1 (26:10):
I remember the first time I went to a video
store and I paid to go into the little basement
cruising area. I became so fixated on this I was
very young too, it was like twenty two.
Speaker 2 (26:20):
I don't know what I was doing. It's my first
time there.
Speaker 1 (26:22):
I became so fixated on this guy and I kept
looking at him and looking at him and looking at him,
and he'd catch me and look away like like clearly
not interested, like clocking up, but not interested.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
And at some what I went up to him.
Speaker 1 (26:32):
I sort of verbalized. I was like, hey, what's up,
and he's like, sorry, I'm just here to look like.
That's what I'm looking for. I want to watch other
people hooking up and like masturbate to that, but I
don't want to particy.
Speaker 3 (26:41):
I don't want to participate.
Speaker 1 (26:42):
And I was like, oh, this is what you're into,
is what you came looking for.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
You're not gay with anybody in.
Speaker 3 (26:46):
This room, right, It's not me, it's right what you've
got going on.
Speaker 4 (26:51):
Yeah, And then think of those spaces we all wear,
are desires out in the open totally, We're all just
sort of showing it all out. What might seem like
a snub to you is somebody else's preference. It's just
all temperature. You know, you just and you take it
for what it is.
Speaker 1 (27:08):
So We've touched on this a bit, but do you
think black and brown men are more likely to deal
with internalized shame when it comes to sex and cruising
and what are some of the factors that might contribute
to that.
Speaker 4 (27:19):
Yeah, I think I think certainly there is because we
have also the added stigma of always feeling like our
brown bodies have been scrutinized and policed and watched. So
we carry that as immigrants and as minorities, we're it's
indoctrinated into us that we're not supposed to rock the boat.
Speaker 3 (27:40):
We're supposed to be good.
Speaker 4 (27:42):
We're supposed to contribute to society, you know, we're supposed
to stay out of trouble, and so we carry we
have that added you know pressure. And then also you know,
growing up sometimes in hyper religious households. I was raised
in a very staunch Catholic family. You know, my mom
was very very religious. There's that added guilt that just
(28:03):
hangs over you. So yeah, I think it manifests differently.
And that's not to say that it doesn't exist in
Anglo or white culture.
Speaker 3 (28:11):
It does.
Speaker 4 (28:12):
It just manifests itself differently, but we do carry it
a lot more intensely, And I think our shame and
our guilt lingers a lot longer and is tied to
our skin color and to the history and legacy. I
think of oppression that a lot of our communities have faced.
A lot of the men of color I talked to
felt like they were betraying that legacy. I'm supposed to
(28:35):
be the good immigrant. I'm supposed to be the godly,
you know, the good saintly, you know child who's supposed
to protect everyone.
Speaker 3 (28:42):
And I'm going against that.
Speaker 4 (28:44):
That linger for me along For a long time, I
was the savior of my family, the youngest of eleven.
I was going to be the one that was gonna
pull everyone out of the muck. I needed to keep
my nose clean. I needed to be a good moral person.
But I had these desires, and every time I acted
on them, I felt horrible. And then it took me
a while to realize, like, you know what, it's not
(29:07):
my responsibility to pull you out of your ship. You
got you got yourself into it, you get yourself out
of it when it comes to my family, and so,
you know, it took me a long time to realize that.
But that shame and that guilt as a person of
color with the disability, came from a marginalized background, hung
around for a long time.
Speaker 2 (29:24):
Yeah, that kind of guilt goes hard, baby, it does hard.
It's when it comes to overcoming this shame.
Speaker 3 (29:31):
How did you do it? And maybe what's some.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
Advice you'd offer to folks who are struggling with unleashing
their inner scene but.
Speaker 4 (29:38):
Wins therapy therapy, no, I think, And I think also
it's you know, I'm lucky that I have a partner
who has taught me a lot about the difference between
you know, sex and love. We've been in relationship for
(30:01):
twenty five years. We know everything about each other, in
and out, upside down, left and right. We've been through
so much together. That's love. And I think that has
really taught me how to overcome that right, to understand
that I can participate in both, and I'm lucky enough
to be able to do that. And also again being
(30:23):
in conversation with other queer folks and talking about it
openly and honestly it helps. And remembering that if you
do have the sense of shame or you know, seeing veduenza,
you're feeling like a mucrosso or you know dirty that
you're not the only one, that there are plenty.
Speaker 3 (30:43):
Of other people that have felt that way, and that.
Speaker 4 (30:47):
There's nothing wrong with it, And you'll get to a
point where you'll understand that your desires and wants and
needs are human, that we're all just human. And again,
you're participating in a practice that existed since there have
been civilizations.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
So you talked about your partner and how you all
have been together for twenty five years and it sounds
like you're open. How did you sort of navigate that
before that that was in the zeitgeist right before open
relationships are hot?
Speaker 2 (31:14):
And do you all cruise together sometimes? You know what?
Speaker 4 (31:16):
We began discussing it when we're deep into our relationship.
I think that's what I would advise. We had many, many,
many years together before we decided like, let's let's try this,
because I know he was looking at the menu and
I certainly was.
Speaker 3 (31:30):
So it's like, growing up.
Speaker 4 (31:34):
My model for a successful relationship was a successful heterosexual relationship.
Speaker 5 (31:41):
Right.
Speaker 3 (31:42):
That's not to.
Speaker 4 (31:42):
Say that that, you know, in the in the queer community,
if you want to have a close relationship, that's great,
that's great. But if you if you want to have yourself.
Oh that's great too, we should have that option, right.
I didn't think that that option was available. I always
thought like, well, I need to follow this rate pattern, right.
And it wasn't until my partner and I were together
that I realized like, oh, okay, like I get this now,
(32:05):
like we're in love. But then, you know, you have
desires and I have desires too. We certainly had our
experiences with the same you know men, but then we
began to realize, like, we have different tastes, and then
sometimes it would get too complicated because it's hard to
orchestrate those things.
Speaker 1 (32:23):
Yeah, I'm free, You're not free.
Speaker 3 (32:27):
He's not free. When the two of them are free,
I'm not free.
Speaker 4 (32:30):
You know, it was a whole other ballow acts that
presented itself, and I don't know what it's like for
other people, but for us, it just kind of became
a little awkward and cumbersome. And so right now we're
in a good place. Like I do my thing, he
does his thing. Sometimes we tell each other, sometimes we don't,
but we always come home to each other.
Speaker 3 (32:49):
And it's also important to have rules. But what are
your rules?
Speaker 2 (32:53):
You know?
Speaker 4 (32:53):
Do you host, do you travel? You know, do you
do it when one's at home and on's not. Like
it's important to lay down those rules to understand it
and to stick with them, because at first, I mean,
when we first started doing it, it was it was
just trial by fire. I'd get jealous and he'd get jealous,
and then I.
Speaker 3 (33:09):
Thought that guy was hot. Nah, he wasn't your taste.
Speaker 2 (33:12):
You know.
Speaker 3 (33:12):
It is just a lot of that, and then we
just learned.
Speaker 4 (33:14):
We just kind of learned like, oh okay, like let's
right this way, and it's just sort of it's just
sort of evolved into its own thing, and it's good
where it is right now. Like that's what I like,
is that it sort of became its thing and we're
both happy.
Speaker 2 (33:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (33:26):
Yeah, So I'm curious.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
Season one, when we first talked about cruising, we sort
of touched on this idea of utopia, right, which J. S.
Muno's postulates is a very like theoretical kind of vibey
thing was always in the future. I think it's an
interesting thought experiment, and I'd like to know what would
an inclusive utopic cruising experience look like to you.
Speaker 3 (33:46):
I think it would it would look like a culture or.
Speaker 4 (33:50):
Community where we could do what we do and participate
in what we participate and not feel so guilty about it, not.
Speaker 3 (33:57):
Feel so bad about it afterward.
Speaker 4 (33:59):
A space that's that's welcoming of every body, every shape,
every size, every every color, every you know, ability slash disability, whatever.
And again, if somebody isn't into you, that you don't
feel bad about it, that we're secure enough and confident
enough to know that. That's that's just how it is, right,
(34:21):
That's that's what it would look like for me.
Speaker 1 (34:23):
Okay, Alex, Now we've reached hand of the interview, but
there's quite a bit more we'd like to ask you.
Speaker 2 (34:27):
So we're gonna go into some rapid fire questions. Okay, okay.
Speaker 1 (34:32):
So the first one is describe your Sniffy's profile pick
if you could ed approved.
Speaker 2 (34:40):
Good, amazing. What's the last message you received on Sniffy's.
Speaker 3 (34:46):
The last message I received? Hot?
Speaker 2 (34:49):
All right, let's flip this around. What's the last message
you sent on Sniffy's Thank you? All right?
Speaker 1 (34:56):
If you can describe the last person you fucked in
three words or less?
Speaker 3 (35:00):
Converse high tops?
Speaker 1 (35:02):
Oh right, god, I'm sensing a fetish all right?
Speaker 2 (35:07):
When you hook up is it your place, their place,
or a third place.
Speaker 4 (35:11):
It's their place or a third place, not out of
some weird you know, respect, but it's just my I
have really, really, really badly behaved dogs who are total
cock blockers.
Speaker 3 (35:23):
They'll just ruin the moment.
Speaker 2 (35:25):
Yeah. And I had a dog pee rain next to
someone's bed.
Speaker 4 (35:29):
Just yeah, that sounds like my dogs. No, no, my
dogs wouldn't. They would bite the person attack them.
Speaker 2 (35:37):
Before, So it's not good. I stayed all right.
Speaker 1 (35:42):
So this is a two parter. Part one, name an
unproblematic straight person.
Speaker 4 (35:46):
An unproblematic straight person. I know it's probably hard, but
oh my therapist good.
Speaker 3 (35:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:53):
And the second part is name a problematic queer person.
Speaker 3 (35:57):
Oh me, you got the ass.
Speaker 2 (36:04):
And that's why you're here. Yes, I love that. I'm
the problem. Yeah, I love all right.
Speaker 1 (36:11):
And if you can remember, what's the corniest opening line
that's ever worked on you?
Speaker 3 (36:15):
You look like Lex Luthor?
Speaker 2 (36:18):
Wow, and that will worked. I love that.
Speaker 4 (36:21):
Okay, he's a hobby, he's like a very like.
Speaker 2 (36:24):
He's a smart one. I'm not a DC person, so
I don't. Yeah. So you got two nerdy latinos in
the room.
Speaker 1 (36:32):
Yeah, yeah, all right, this is our last rapid fire question,
what is your most controversial take related to cruising, sex
or queer life.
Speaker 4 (36:42):
I think the most controversial one is that apps aren't cruising.
Speaker 3 (36:48):
Wait wait, wait, no, no, no, but I don't believe that.
Oh so that's not controversial. Okay, okay, that's not gonna work.
So you say that apps are cruising you.
Speaker 2 (36:57):
Your controversial take is that apps are our cruiser.
Speaker 4 (37:00):
Because I again, I am of a generation where I
cruise pre apps. So for a lot of men of
my generation, using apps isn't cruising, But for me it
is like you can't call you know, you can't call
it cruising if you're using Sniffy's regrinder or whatever. That's
not the same, but I think it is.
Speaker 2 (37:19):
Yeah, all right, Well this has been an incredible discussion, Alex.
Thank you so much for stopping by. It's been it's
been really lovely having you here much. Thank you, thanks
for making me cry.
Speaker 3 (37:29):
And thank you for the work that you're doing too.
Speaker 4 (37:31):
I have to say thank you for both of you
and for you know this this podcast and this opportunity
for us to come together.
Speaker 3 (37:36):
I think it's really important.
Speaker 2 (37:37):
Where can folks find you and your work on Sniffy's.
Speaker 3 (37:40):
If you I'm just kidding, you know what to look for.
Speaker 2 (37:43):
Now you.
Speaker 4 (37:47):
Know you can find me on I have a website,
Alexispinosa dot com. I have an Instagram TikTok every now
and again, excepted on dance. You can find my work
at bookstores. So I'm out there.
Speaker 2 (37:59):
Amazing, amazing.
Speaker 1 (38:00):
Thank you again Alex for joining us, and congrats to
our listeners for completing Cruising three to zero one.
Speaker 2 (38:06):
Yeah. I love being a teacher.
Speaker 1 (38:08):
Next up, we're going to hear another scandalous true sex
story from our special Cruising Confessions hotline. I can't wait
to hear what y'all are getting up to in the park.
Speaker 5 (38:18):
The park was hot.
Speaker 2 (38:20):
Today, Hey, diffies.
Speaker 5 (38:25):
I live in West Hollywood, California, and I had the
hottest public play experience. I love to jerk off and
play in public. And there was a profile two hundred
three hundred feet away from me, no face, just a torso,
(38:47):
and I messaged the profile to catch me jerking off outside.
When I was outside, I took a snapshot of my
dick and a location of like where I was by.
This guy walked out of a building nearby and walked
(39:08):
past me. And I was like, what's up? And he
didn't respond, and I was like kind of anxious about
it because I was like, oh shit, what if this
isn't up the person? And then he turned back a
couple times, and I was like, this is definitely him.
Had that happened? One came out of their building walking
their dogs, and I quickly put my clothes back on
(39:30):
and continued to walk after the guy. He turned back
and I was like, shit, where am I supposed to
go to? Like have this guy watch me jork off?
And there was these little stairs between some bushes and
a building. I went right on top of the steps
(39:50):
just between there, and I got super nervous, but I
heard like six steps coming back, and I took my
short sauce started stroking, and this guy stopped and watched
me jerk off passionately. I was moaning softly. I would
like gesture to him to like come closer, but he
(40:13):
never did, but he watched me play with my nipples
and just stroke my dick until I came. I coated
those steps with my load, and when we were done,
I saw that he was online again and I said
thanks for watching, and he just replied, damn that was
(40:34):
really fucking hot.
Speaker 1 (40:37):
I'm so interested in these kind of like stoic figures
that are interested in watching but aren't like pleasuring themselves
at all, aren't They're like, I'm just I'm here to
be an observer.
Speaker 2 (40:46):
I'm here to be a witness. And I think that's
so fun.
Speaker 1 (40:49):
I think that's like I don't know, because I'm wondering
if it's like does it take self control?
Speaker 2 (40:53):
Yeah? It must.
Speaker 1 (40:54):
It's like or you just like, oh, I just like
like you go bird watching, you, you know what I mean?
Speaker 2 (40:59):
You go like jerk off watching. Okay, I don't know.
I feel like if I'm watching someone jack off, I'm
gonna want to participate. It doesn't matter who they are.
Speaker 1 (41:07):
Well, it seems like a preamble, Yeah, something exactly right,
exactly Yeah. And also like very daring to like go
to a public spot and be like, all right, let's
let's go together to another spot. But then like kind
of like staggering your walk. That's commitment, that takes a
lot of coordination.
Speaker 2 (41:22):
It's a hot story, yeah, because.
Speaker 1 (41:23):
I would have been like, can we go back to
your place? But then it wouldn't be as fun.
Speaker 2 (41:26):
Yeah. The mystery of it all in sort of taken
out of it because now I'm seeing your apartment.
Speaker 1 (41:31):
Right exactly, and then I know too much about it,
and then and then I see the poster of your
favorite movie and the books that I judge and your DVD.
Speaker 2 (41:38):
Collection, and I don't want to know that. I want
your eyes on my dick while I'm jerking off on
the stairs. Now, would you do this kind of maybe?
Speaker 1 (41:46):
Yes, I am a little bit of an exhibitionist, but
it has to I'm also like very paranoid about like
either exposing myself to somebody should not be exposing myself to,
or like getting in trouble for doing stuff out in
pub So I do enjoy public play, and I do
kind of enjoy cruising and like having.
Speaker 3 (42:06):
Other people watch, but it's rare.
Speaker 1 (42:09):
Then I'm doing it not in the context of like
a queer event or a queer vacation spot or like
a known queer location.
Speaker 2 (42:16):
Yeah, I mean, I'm not out in the streets of
LA being like, hey, you know what I mean, like right,
and it's kind of a neighborhood area.
Speaker 1 (42:22):
Yeah, but that's the thing, because you're walkable too, is
there's way more foot traffic.
Speaker 2 (42:26):
But like if you're thinking about, like what time of night,
you know, like there're that many people walking in the street,
people drive like yeah for sure. All right. If you
want to hear your own cruising confession on an upcoming
episode of this podcast, you can call our Cuising Confessions
hotline at three zero two two one nine three eight
nine eight. That's three zero two two one nine three
(42:48):
eight nine eight.
Speaker 1 (42:49):
All right, what a show we should think. Alex Espinosa
again for stopping by. What incredible guest. I've been such
a fan of his book for so long. We were
gagged in very starstruck. And just what a refreshing combo
have at Approove, Yeah, Approove. Sniffy's Cruising Confessions is directed
by Adam Barron, produced by Amanda Kuper and Cameron Femino,
(43:10):
and executive produced by Eli Martin.
Speaker 2 (43:12):
Cruising Confessions is presented by Snippy's, the ultimate map based
cruising platform for kay by and curious people ready to cruise.
Check out the map at snippies dot com and fall
snitches at Snippy's app. Cruisers are a community. Do your
part in keeping us safe.
Speaker 1 (43:25):
Learn more about protecting your sexual help at Healthy Sexuals
dot com.
Speaker 2 (43:30):
Put jo put put jo, put put your put
Hey, viewers, Sniffy's Cruising Confessions is an explicit podcast about
queer sex. Filter dirty words and unfiltered descriptions of sexual activities.
If hearing about orgies, anonymous sex, kink, fetish, and more
offends your sensibilities, you might want to skip this. Viewer
discretion is advised. It's definitely not for kids.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Put your pussy up, put your put your pussy up,
Put your pussy up. Put put your pussy. Welcome to
Sniffy's Cruising Confessions. I'm Gabelon Sadez and I'm christtison Rosso.
Each week we explore the sublime world of queer sex, cruising,
and relationships. We talk to queer folks of all kinds.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
We'll ask some questions, swap sex stories, share intimate revelations,
and provide practical advice that you can use at home.
Jo the put put Joe, pussy, put job, put put
your put, put.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Your put up. So Chris, so game, what are we
chatting about today? Oh gosh, we're doing a deep dive
I think, and even deeper dive. Yeah, into cruising, into cruising.
That's right, this is gonna be our cruising through a
one episode. But Chris I feel like at this point
we should be experts. I mean, I came into this
kind of our radio as an expert. I see, yes,
(01:10):
so brilliantly stated in season one. Yeah they have. They
watched me in action, Chris.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
Is mech cranes like an owl when we pass people
on the street.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
I'm like, if that's not commitment to the art form,
I don't know what is. I'm wondering. Though.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
We host a podcast called Cruising Confessions. We have done
two episodes on cruising. Yes, we should be experts on paper,
but I feel like there's still a law for us
to discuss.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
For sure, And I'm always a student, so I'm always
willing to learn more.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
If you have listened to this podcast, as we mentioned,
for the past two seasons we've covered cruising, you might
have heard our Cruising one on one episode with Lee
Horrera who we love, and are cruising two to one
episode with Professor Joel Florencio, who we lovingly call Professor
pig Well.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
Today, students, it's time for another lesson. That's right, the
bell has rung. Cruising through a one begins now and
your professor for today's class, incredible Alex Espinoza.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
I am so excited about this guest. Alex's twenty nineteen
book Cruising is a pretty essential read for anybody interested
in learning the history of cruising, but it also offers
uniquely personal insights into his experiences being a queer, disabled
Latino in cruising spaces.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
On today's episode, we're going to be talking with Alex
about what he learned about himself and cruising while writing
his book, how things have changed since it's writing, and
get some practical tips for queer cruises of color. Please
welcome to Sniffley's Cruising Confessions. Alex Espinoza.
Speaker 3 (02:32):
Thank you for having me. It's great to be here
with both of you.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
So excited, SOULEI, thank you for being here. I'm really
sexy that you hear. We both are.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
We're a huge frend of the book and we're so
happy that you're hear from California.
Speaker 3 (02:42):
Right all the way from Los Angeles.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Amazing. Thanks for making the track. How's the weather hot?
Speaker 3 (02:47):
But you know where it's really hot?
Speaker 2 (02:48):
Where on Sniffy's Oh? I love that?
Speaker 1 (02:53):
Are you an Avid Sniffy's user in La define Avid?
Speaker 3 (02:58):
Okay, I do have a profile?
Speaker 2 (03:01):
Okay? Is its profile or is it an anonymous.
Speaker 3 (03:03):
It's a registered profile.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
Okay, you're like, yeah, the photos I.
Speaker 4 (03:07):
Put the work in. I don't mess around when it
comes to that.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
Well, if there's one thing we take seriously, it's cruising,
Yeah exactly.
Speaker 4 (03:16):
But if people want to be anonymous, that's completely fine also.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
All right, So before we dive too much into our
personal cruising practices, I do want to kind of start
us off big picture.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
I don't want to talk about your book Cruising.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
It has become one of the major go tos for
anybody interested in learning about cruising. When you started writing it,
what was sort of the inspiration behind it, and was
the reaction what you expected.
Speaker 4 (03:37):
I wasn't looking to write a book about cruising. That
was the last thing I was looking to do. But
I just happened to be having a conversation with my
editor at the time, and I was talking about how
I felt as though I think the literary landscape when
it came to queer writing at the time was a
little too polite. I think it was catering to a
(03:58):
non queer lens. And I kept saying, like, why can't
we go back to that era of sixties writers like
John Reshie or Jim Grimsley, who were writing very unapologetically
about sex and body fluids and just everything right. That
was my entree into queer literature. And then my editor
and her partner took me out to lunch one day
(04:19):
and they cruised me. Actually, they said, we think that
you have it in you to write a book about cruising.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
You got professionally cruised. I did.
Speaker 4 (04:26):
I got professionally cruise. And I thought about it and
thought about it and thought about it, and I think
the reason why I said yes to it was because
I really wanted to bring in the perspective of not
just a queer person of color, but a queer person
of color with the disability. And I said, you know,
that's an angle that I think I can I can
lend to it. That was the genesis of the book.
(04:47):
And I knew that when I was going to write it,
I was going to have to put my own self
into the book. And I'm like, you know what, I'm
going to write about my first experience. I'm going to
write about, you know, these sex clubs I've been to.
I'm going to write about all these places, and I'll
worry about what people think about it. Later, I was
writing something that was kind of in between scholarship and
personal memoir because I'm not a scholar, you know, I'm
(05:08):
not I teach creative writing. And you know, one of
the things that was important for me were the interviews
that I did with a lot of the men, and
there were a lot that I didn't include.
Speaker 5 (05:17):
Wow.
Speaker 4 (05:18):
And you know, for all of all of the men
that I interviewed, what was fantastic was just the complete
intimacy of the details that they remember from me years ago.
You know, the color of the tiles in the bathroom
at their college bookstore, the smell like the they remember,
you know, the graffiti on the walls and the stalls.
(05:41):
Details that are just like when you're a creative writer,
Like I tell my students, like, that's the shit that
I want you pulling.
Speaker 3 (05:47):
Yeah, right, and they had it all.
Speaker 4 (05:49):
I knew that I wanted to be in conversation with
that because I had denied that for so many years.
I'd been you know, participating in it and doing it
and feeling really ashamed and you know, carrying this cross,
feeling like I'm the only one that's like this, you
know muro in Spanish. And then I have these conversations
with these men and they were like, no, I did too. Yeah, right,
(06:13):
And it was revelatory. You know, it was revelatory for me.
So it was a really fantastic experience.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
Well, now, Cochino Pig is quite empowering.
Speaker 3 (06:21):
It's very empowered.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
I was like, everybody's acino, everyone everyone's So I'm curious.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
Take us back to sort of the beginning of your
first encounters with cruising. Did you find cruising or did
it find you?
Speaker 3 (06:37):
Oh, it found me? Tell me about that it found me.
And I included this in the book.
Speaker 4 (06:43):
I grew up in the San Gabriel Valley in the
nineteen eighties in La the youngest of eleven. Wow right,
I know that's the reaction. And you know, hyper catholic.
I was born with the disability, very insecure. I have alopisia.
At a time when I think, you know, a lot
(07:04):
of us are are coming into our own and discovering
our urges and our desires, my body was starting to
betray me and it was, you know, losing my hair.
And I was an athletic. I couldn't do a lot
of the things that my peers were doing. I knew
that I was gay, and I knew that. You know,
I liked men. I remember being very attracted to Harry
(07:25):
chests because I don't have.
Speaker 3 (07:27):
Hair, what you don't have. I worked at the mall.
Speaker 4 (07:31):
It was my first job, and I was sixteen years
old and I was waiting at the bus stop. I
was going to the mall to get my paycheck. And
this guy in a white Hyundai Excel, say, there are
the details again.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
I was.
Speaker 3 (07:47):
El hatchback blue interior. Still remember all this.
Speaker 4 (07:52):
Drove by and pulled up to the bus stop, looked
at me and drove away. And he had spiky hair,
I remember, and he was wearing a like a teal
colored tank top.
Speaker 3 (08:05):
This was the eighties. Yeah, I mean it's like total
Miami vice.
Speaker 4 (08:13):
And he drove by and looked at me and then
drove away, and then drove by again and did the
same thing. And I was I had a walkman. I
was listening to my Smith's cassette. Yeah okay, And he
drove by. The third time, he pulled over and pretended
to check the tire.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
Oh wow.
Speaker 4 (08:31):
He walked around and like kicked it and then looked
at me and then drove away. And the fourth time
he pulled over and he said, do you want to ride?
Speaker 2 (08:39):
Oh?
Speaker 4 (08:40):
And I looked at him and I said yes. And
the minute I said yes, I knew exactly what was
going to happen. And he took me to a field
and you know, we did our thing. I remember, he
didn't drive me all the way to the mall. He
just left me at another bus stop, which I thought
was kind of shitty.
Speaker 3 (08:58):
That damn after I did what I did the least
I could.
Speaker 4 (09:01):
You know, I mean, come on, I that was a
pretty good blow job. Say, it was my first, and
I knew exactly what I was doing.
Speaker 3 (09:09):
Yes, it was just instinctual.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:11):
And I was like, and he didn't even drop me off.
Damn them all. He didn't leave me in front of the.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
Well maybe he did have is shoes with the tire
you never No, I don't know.
Speaker 3 (09:19):
The tire looked fine to me.
Speaker 4 (09:21):
And then the funny thing is he said to me, hey,
if you know, if you have any other friends, oh,
just let them know I'm usually at the park. So
I was like, okay, And then I take the bus
and I get I get to work. And I had
one gay friend back then. He was this Filipino guy,
named Ed, and Ed was very out and very proud
(09:41):
and very flamboyant, and d used to cruise and I was,
you know, it's my first time. It was I was
a virgin and I said to Ed, Oh my god,
you're not gonna believe what just happened to me. I
said what, And I said, I looked up with this
guy and it was so hot and he had a
huge dick and stopped me goes, wait a minute, was
(10:04):
he in a white Hyundai?
Speaker 3 (10:05):
No?
Speaker 2 (10:07):
No?
Speaker 3 (10:07):
And I said yes, and he looked at me and
said it wasn't that big. So that was my entre.
Oh wow.
Speaker 4 (10:17):
And then after that it just it was like this
homing beak And that was kind of my first cruising experience,
was that. And you know the strange thing is is
I still remember how just instinctual it was like it
was like this part of my DNA, you know, it
was like a mutant power that was lang dormant inside
(10:39):
of me, that like sprang Forth, And the moment that
that happened, I realized that there was this whole other world.
Speaker 3 (10:46):
It was like almost like.
Speaker 4 (10:47):
A parallel world that existed outside of the norm that
I could enter into and exit whenever I wanted, and
I felt like that was really powerful.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
It is kind of funny how instinctual it always let's
it sort of rust happened, Like I think about my
first cruising experience and it was just instinctual. Like I
don't know, I guess we're just born queer.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
I mean, it's funny the way the body responds when
you're like, oh, something feels good, right, especially after years
of being told these are the people you should be
attracted to. It's like I tried making out with a
girl in the sixth grade, Like it felt weird, and
then the first time I kissed the boy, I was like, oh,
what's that like?
Speaker 2 (11:22):
You know what?
Speaker 1 (11:22):
I like?
Speaker 2 (11:23):
You just cut your body is gonna give you the
cues and you pick them up.
Speaker 4 (11:26):
Yeah, I kissed ahead a lettuce once. That's what it
felt like kissing a girl.
Speaker 3 (11:30):
Oh for me, Wait, I didn't. I didn't like make
out with the head of lettuce, but like I kissed
it on a dare.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
Yeah, but how did this come about? That?
Speaker 3 (11:38):
That's a whole lot of stuff, Chris.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
We've watched people fuck pumpkins. I think kiss lettuce. Yeah,
I think we're going to be fine. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
Well, I mean, I will say I'm kind of shocked
that you had your first cruising experience in the Los
Angeles area because I grew up in Florida.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
That's a heavy driving.
Speaker 3 (11:56):
There weren't a lot.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
Of places to be outside and walking.
Speaker 4 (11:59):
Yeah, and it was for me, it became a very
different experience when I started driving, you know, when I
and then you know, back then, it was all word
of mouth, you know. It was it was my friend Ed,
you know, Size Queen and my friend Eric who you
know who. They were the ones that would would tell me, like,
(12:19):
there's this alley, you know. I mean, it was like
West Hollywood, or it.
Speaker 3 (12:22):
Was Griffith Park.
Speaker 4 (12:24):
You had to go to these places, and rarely did
it happen spontaneously. We didn't have you know, apps, and
we didn't have you know, you know, the access to
the technology that we have now, So it was a
very different kind of experience. It was really spontaneous and
it could happen, you know, any time in any place.
(12:44):
I think now we're seeing cruising taking on a new form.
You know, a lot of the conversations I've had with
men over the years since the publication of the book,
is you know, there are the purists to say, no
cruising is you know this, it's it's pre Internet, it's
you know, it's going to you know, a Macy's bathroom
and waiting or attacking your foot.
Speaker 3 (13:04):
Or it's this or that.
Speaker 4 (13:06):
And I think I'm of the mind where it's just
it's evolving into something different, you know, it's it's just
becoming a new thing.
Speaker 2 (13:13):
So, as a brown man living with a disability, what
has been your experience navigating queer or social spaces.
Speaker 4 (13:20):
I grew up in a time when, again and in
a culture, in a gay culture where it was all
about looks. I remember West Hollywood in the eighties and nineties, it.
Speaker 3 (13:29):
Was all about looks.
Speaker 4 (13:30):
It was all about you know, the hard bodies and
the great hair and the you know, all of those things.
It was very superficial. I always felt like I was
the ugly duckling of my group of friends where we
would go to these clubs in West Hollywood. We're all
like closeted, you know, Mexican queers. We'd get in the
car and we'd drive to West Hollywood and we go
party and they would always get invited to dance, and
(13:51):
I was always the one sort of against the wall,
just like watching and like like drinking, you know, a
cocktail or something. And so I never felt comfortable in
those spaces. I felt very insecure. I didn't know what
to do with my body. And it wasn't until I
started cruising that I realized that physically below the belt
(14:12):
I was special.
Speaker 3 (14:15):
And yeah, and let's.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
Say ED would have given you a good would have
given me a great review.
Speaker 4 (14:24):
And so it wasn't until I was like, oh, I
get it now. So my confidence grew in no penitent
it grew enormously, and so I realized that I could
wield power, that my disability didn't matter, that I could
you know, use it as a way to gain confidence.
(14:47):
So it was a really unique and strange and wonderful
experience for me that that taught me a lot about
myself and my body.
Speaker 2 (14:54):
You know.
Speaker 3 (14:55):
It was it was okay if I went to the clubs.
Speaker 4 (14:57):
And wasn't looked at because I looked at certain or
I had hair or this or that, but you know,
you'd look at me if we were in another environment,
you know, and then some so I kind of was
able to walk between those two worlds right in a
way that my friends couldn't. I felt incredibly empowered and
(15:17):
very special. But it took me a long time. It
took me years and years and years of soul searching
to be proud of the fact that I was a
sexual person, and that I could be a sexual person
with the disability, that I didn't have to be this
sort of like, you know, very humble and very I'm
so sorry, you know, please give me any kind of
affection or attention that you feel that you can throw
(15:40):
at me. I was like, no, fuck that It was
my sexual experiences that taught me how to be confident
and how to walk a little more proudly in this world.
The minute I realized that that was the moment I
met my partner of twenty five years. Was that moment
I realized, like, Okay, I'm good with who this person is.
Speaker 3 (15:56):
And that was in like two thousand, so.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
Alex we talked a bit about how these hierarchies are
formed in kind of public facing queer spaces, right standing
by the wall at the club, waiting for the muscle
guy in West Dollywood to come grab you. How are
these hierarchies functioning or maybe torn apart in queer cruising spaces.
Speaker 4 (16:16):
In cruising spaces, and a lot of men that I
talked to is people assume different roles and kind of
exaggerate them. You know, you can subvert these roles in
ways that you can't in regular society. You know, if
you're a brown person, if you're you know, a bus
boy or you know, a gardener, and that's all that
society sees you.
Speaker 3 (16:37):
In these cruising spaces, you can become somebody else. You
can totally flip the script.
Speaker 4 (16:42):
It was I guess it was that was the first
time I learned that that there was a kind of
a kink to it. I remember doing that thinking it
was really hot and I liked doing it, but I
didn't I didn't have the language back then to be
able to articulate it. It wasn't until I became educated, when
I when I went to school and I learned about
things like hierarchies and those big buzzwords that we used
to use in academia that I realized like, oh, that's
(17:03):
what I was doing in these anonymous spaces and these
spaces where you don't exchange names. You see how these
notions of flipping scripts and and and and playing off
of each other and and donning a persona really play
out in fundamentally potent ways that they don't, you know,
in other spheres. When I was in graduate school and
(17:26):
as an undergrad and then realizing I know exactly what
that is. Oh yeah, because you know I hooked up
with that guy and he was white and he made
me do this, and you know I was just brown
Mexican and he wanted me. You know, it's like, I'm
proof that you can walk in those spaces and assume
that role and dominate in ways that society tells you,
as a poor brown kid you're not supposed to.
Speaker 1 (17:46):
I think there's something that you were kind of hinting
at when you told us that story about that kind
of aha moment where you're like, I've got a big
dick and it's valued in this space, and it teaches
you to value more of yourself besides facer dick. Right,
But it does seem like it's not like going to
the bar and waiting by the wall and being like, oh,
I hope the haughty picks me. It's looking looking back
and gestures and like pointing the eye to our areas
(18:09):
you want to highlight. Right, there are different ways that
you can kind of make the approach when cruising that
you can again, you know.
Speaker 4 (18:16):
What it is, it's like, fuck the hot you picking me,
I'm gonna pick you right.
Speaker 3 (18:20):
It's not a question of whether you want me, It's
a question of whether I want you. Yeah, and you
know what, You're gonna want me?
Speaker 4 (18:26):
Yeah, because wait till you pull my till I see
my my pants down, literally waiting. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:35):
When you you spoke about when you were writing your book,
you did a lot of interviews, and I'm wondering what
was a commonality through all of your interviews.
Speaker 4 (18:42):
A lot of men that I that I interviewed really
were driven by this uh insatiable lust.
Speaker 3 (18:51):
I don't want to say lust, but like a it
was a rush almost.
Speaker 4 (18:54):
The danger of it, the spontaneity of it, the energy
that comes with that. They all talked about how exciting
and hot that was. This idea that you know, you're
out there and you're doing something that you're not supposed
to be doing, that you're not supposed to be participating in,
and you're doing it in a public space is really hot.
But that's what makes cruising so unique is that you're
(19:17):
doing it in these spaces that are you know, for
lack of a better word, outlawed, right, and you're breaking
the law, and you're doing it because you're thumbing your
nose up to this larger society that's constantly told us
that our wants and our desires don't fit into the
larger mainstream narrative that we've been fed. A lot of them,
(19:38):
you know, love the thrill and the chase of it.
They love going back and repeating the steps. I think
that sort of and as an immigrant who's studied a
lot of migration, you know, patterns of migration, that's a
migratory pattern, right, it's going back and again and again
and again in the same space and crossing it over
and over. A lot of men talked about the almost
(20:00):
almost like meditative You can participate in this act and
the veil of reality gets torn, and suddenly that bathroom
in that Macy's becomes more than just a bathroom in
a Macy's. It becomes a really special, intimate, very powerful,
impotent space that changes the air around you. And then
(20:23):
you finish, you go off and do your thing, and
then the next person that walks into that bathroom is
just trying to buy shoes that Macy's.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
So the book has been out for a while and
I'm wondering, is there something that you left out that
you wish you would have been included?
Speaker 4 (20:38):
You know, I think I would have liked to have
included more of the experiences of this younger generation of
gay men who are on you know, a prep and
taking all of you know, these preventative steps, and it's
I think it's freed up a lot of it's led
the way for a lot of that sex positivity. And
you know, the funny thing is is the younger generation,
(20:59):
like my nephew you I had to explain to him
how frightening it was being queer in the nineties, getting
them to understand that that there was this fear about
getting AIDS and dying and being outed. But you couldn't
say no to it. You couldn't like, what do you
gonna do? Like become celibate. The conversations I had when
(21:19):
I was on book tour was I'd have, you know,
this younger generation of of of gay men who would
come up to me and would.
Speaker 3 (21:25):
Say, like, was it really that scary?
Speaker 2 (21:28):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (21:28):
And that goes to show you how much of our
history has been just completely obliterated, right, And why it's
important to have books, you know that that that traced
the trajectory you know, of this history, to have podcasts
that discuss it and and and shed light on it
and talk about it honestly, because we've we haven't been
doing that for so long, and you know, it's it's
(21:51):
led to, you know, not very good things.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
Sorry, emotion no, because I love this project and I
love what we do here. I am gonna cry sorry.
I do love what we do here, and I do
love the conversations that we're able to have, and what
we're doing here is really important.
Speaker 1 (22:14):
Yeah, well, I think that sounds like a good place
to take a break.
Speaker 2 (22:18):
When we come back, we're gonna hear Alex's tips and
tricks for both cruisers of color and disabled cruisers, and
maybe here a cruising confession or two.
Speaker 1 (22:25):
Don't go anywhere the spirit of ed compels you will
be right back, Welcome back. We've been having a lot
of fun and a very incredible discussion with author Alex Spinosa.
But in this act we're going to hear some practical
advice for both disabled cruisers and cruisers of color.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
What should disabled cruisers be thinking about when they're looking
for cruising spaces or things like that, or how should
they approach cruising.
Speaker 4 (22:54):
I think it's important to remember what your own sort
of limits and capabilities are, right like what you can
and can't do physically, and you have to let that
dictate how you cruise and the spaces that you occupy.
I think it's important for cruisers to remember that safety
(23:16):
is important, that their safety is a priority. When to
reveal your disability or when not to is you pretty
much have to gauge it depending on how the conversation's
going with the person. You have to get used to
and be comfortable with the possibility of rejection, right of
(23:36):
knowing that someone is not, you know, going to have
a taste for this or for that, and you as
a cruiser have to be comfortable with that. And I
think I think for cruisers of color, particularly Latinos, right now,
we're seeing because we're seeing a lot of things happening
in the major cities, like ice raids. If you're undocumented,
you know, I had plenty of conversations with men when
(23:58):
I was writing the book who talked about the fact
that they were the breadwinner of their family and if
they got arrested and sent back, then that was it.
So you know, remembering what's at stake for you, right
and letting that dictate engage how and when you participate
and in what you participated, and to stay informed. You know.
(24:22):
One of the things that I think is really fantastic
about some of these apps is that they do post warnings.
I've seen, you know on apps heads up, you know,
I saw ice raids here, or I saw cops here,
or you know, be wary of this park. So that's
a really handy tool that we need to start really
paying attention to and being a little more cognizant. So
(24:44):
I think I think it's all about education for me.
Speaker 1 (24:47):
And you were talking a bit about how to grapple
with rejection. Was there something that helped you sort of
deal with that in cruising spaces or to sort of
rediscover your confidence and keep looking after potentially fear seen
rejection walle cruising.
Speaker 4 (25:02):
I think it's just that knowing that there are plenty
of other fish in the sea, right that for all
of the times that I've been rejected, there have been
plenty of times when I haven't been and and just
just remembering that and putting that in perspective, and it's
all about recognizing that if you are going to participate
and play the game, know that you are participating in
(25:23):
an act that one has had a long you know history, right,
it's been around for a long time.
Speaker 3 (25:30):
And know that you are one in a series of.
Speaker 4 (25:34):
Many, many, many, many many men who have gone through
the exact same thing. There's there's solidarity in that. There's
solidarity in recognizing that.
Speaker 3 (25:42):
I think I've just become.
Speaker 4 (25:42):
A little wiser now and just been like, okay, well,
you know, if I go and there's no chemistry, then
that's fine, that's okay. You know what's the worst thing
that could happen right to me? You know at that moment,
my feelings get hurt.
Speaker 2 (25:56):
Yeah, right, okay, you know I'll get over it. Yeah,
my feelings have been hurt before. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And
I feel like a lot of times it's more about
that person than.
Speaker 3 (26:06):
It is about exactly exactly.
Speaker 2 (26:08):
I don't know what they're looking for, you to know
what their circumstances are. Like.
Speaker 1 (26:10):
I remember the first time I went to a video
store and I paid to go into the little basement
cruising area. I became so fixated on this I was
very young too, it was like twenty two.
Speaker 2 (26:20):
I don't know what I was doing. It's my first
time there.
Speaker 1 (26:22):
I became so fixated on this guy and I kept
looking at him and looking at him and looking at him,
and he'd catch me and look away like like clearly
not interested, like clocking up, but not interested.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
And at some what I went up to him.
Speaker 1 (26:32):
I sort of verbalized. I was like, hey, what's up,
and he's like, sorry, I'm just here to look like.
That's what I'm looking for. I want to watch other
people hooking up and like masturbate to that, but I
don't want to particy.
Speaker 3 (26:41):
I don't want to participate.
Speaker 1 (26:42):
And I was like, oh, this is what you're into,
is what you came looking for.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
You're not gay with anybody in.
Speaker 3 (26:46):
This room, right, It's not me, it's right what you've
got going on.
Speaker 4 (26:51):
Yeah, And then think of those spaces we all wear,
are desires out in the open totally, We're all just
sort of showing it all out. What might seem like
a snub to you is somebody else's preference. It's just
all temperature. You know, you just and you take it
for what it is.
Speaker 1 (27:08):
So We've touched on this a bit, but do you
think black and brown men are more likely to deal
with internalized shame when it comes to sex and cruising
and what are some of the factors that might contribute
to that.
Speaker 4 (27:19):
Yeah, I think I think certainly there is because we
have also the added stigma of always feeling like our
brown bodies have been scrutinized and policed and watched. So
we carry that as immigrants and as minorities, we're it's
indoctrinated into us that we're not supposed to rock the boat.
Speaker 3 (27:40):
We're supposed to be good.
Speaker 4 (27:42):
We're supposed to contribute to society, you know, we're supposed
to stay out of trouble, and so we carry we
have that added you know pressure. And then also you know,
growing up sometimes in hyper religious households. I was raised
in a very staunch Catholic family. You know, my mom
was very very religious. There's that added guilt that just
(28:03):
hangs over you. So yeah, I think it manifests differently.
And that's not to say that it doesn't exist in
Anglo or white culture.
Speaker 3 (28:11):
It does.
Speaker 4 (28:12):
It just manifests itself differently, but we do carry it
a lot more intensely, And I think our shame and
our guilt lingers a lot longer and is tied to
our skin color and to the history and legacy. I
think of oppression that a lot of our communities have faced.
A lot of the men of color I talked to
felt like they were betraying that legacy. I'm supposed to
(28:35):
be the good immigrant. I'm supposed to be the godly,
you know, the good saintly, you know child who's supposed
to protect everyone.
Speaker 3 (28:42):
And I'm going against that.
Speaker 4 (28:44):
That linger for me along For a long time, I
was the savior of my family, the youngest of eleven.
I was going to be the one that was gonna
pull everyone out of the muck. I needed to keep
my nose clean. I needed to be a good moral person.
But I had these desires, and every time I acted
on them, I felt horrible. And then it took me
a while to realize, like, you know what, it's not
(29:07):
my responsibility to pull you out of your ship. You
got you got yourself into it, you get yourself out
of it when it comes to my family, and so,
you know, it took me a long time to realize that.
But that shame and that guilt as a person of
color with the disability, came from a marginalized background, hung
around for a long time.
Speaker 2 (29:24):
Yeah, that kind of guilt goes hard, baby, it does hard.
It's when it comes to overcoming this shame.
Speaker 3 (29:31):
How did you do it? And maybe what's some.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
Advice you'd offer to folks who are struggling with unleashing
their inner scene but.
Speaker 4 (29:38):
Wins therapy therapy, no, I think, And I think also
it's you know, I'm lucky that I have a partner
who has taught me a lot about the difference between
you know, sex and love. We've been in relationship for
(30:01):
twenty five years. We know everything about each other, in
and out, upside down, left and right. We've been through
so much together. That's love. And I think that has
really taught me how to overcome that right, to understand
that I can participate in both, and I'm lucky enough
to be able to do that. And also again being
(30:23):
in conversation with other queer folks and talking about it
openly and honestly it helps. And remembering that if you
do have the sense of shame or you know, seeing veduenza,
you're feeling like a mucrosso or you know dirty that
you're not the only one, that there are plenty.
Speaker 3 (30:43):
Of other people that have felt that way, and that.
Speaker 4 (30:47):
There's nothing wrong with it, And you'll get to a
point where you'll understand that your desires and wants and
needs are human, that we're all just human. And again,
you're participating in a practice that existed since there have
been civilizations.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
So you talked about your partner and how you all
have been together for twenty five years and it sounds
like you're open. How did you sort of navigate that
before that that was in the zeitgeist right before open
relationships are hot?
Speaker 2 (31:14):
And do you all cruise together sometimes? You know what?
Speaker 4 (31:16):
We began discussing it when we're deep into our relationship.
I think that's what I would advise. We had many, many,
many years together before we decided like, let's let's try this,
because I know he was looking at the menu and
I certainly was.
Speaker 3 (31:30):
So it's like, growing up.
Speaker 4 (31:34):
My model for a successful relationship was a successful heterosexual relationship.
Speaker 5 (31:41):
Right.
Speaker 3 (31:42):
That's not to.
Speaker 4 (31:42):
Say that that, you know, in the in the queer community,
if you want to have a close relationship, that's great,
that's great. But if you if you want to have yourself.
Oh that's great too, we should have that option, right.
I didn't think that that option was available. I always
thought like, well, I need to follow this rate pattern, right.
And it wasn't until my partner and I were together
that I realized like, oh, okay, like I get this now,
(32:05):
like we're in love. But then, you know, you have
desires and I have desires too. We certainly had our
experiences with the same you know men, but then we
began to realize, like, we have different tastes, and then
sometimes it would get too complicated because it's hard to
orchestrate those things.
Speaker 1 (32:23):
Yeah, I'm free, You're not free.
Speaker 3 (32:27):
He's not free. When the two of them are free,
I'm not free.
Speaker 4 (32:30):
You know, it was a whole other ballow acts that
presented itself, and I don't know what it's like for
other people, but for us, it just kind of became
a little awkward and cumbersome. And so right now we're
in a good place. Like I do my thing, he
does his thing. Sometimes we tell each other, sometimes we don't,
but we always come home to each other.
Speaker 3 (32:49):
And it's also important to have rules. But what are
your rules?
Speaker 2 (32:53):
You know?
Speaker 4 (32:53):
Do you host, do you travel? You know, do you
do it when one's at home and on's not. Like
it's important to lay down those rules to understand it
and to stick with them, because at first, I mean,
when we first started doing it, it was it was
just trial by fire. I'd get jealous and he'd get jealous,
and then I.
Speaker 3 (33:09):
Thought that guy was hot. Nah, he wasn't your taste.
Speaker 2 (33:12):
You know.
Speaker 3 (33:12):
It is just a lot of that, and then we
just learned.
Speaker 4 (33:14):
We just kind of learned like, oh okay, like let's
right this way, and it's just sort of it's just
sort of evolved into its own thing, and it's good
where it is right now. Like that's what I like,
is that it sort of became its thing and we're
both happy.
Speaker 2 (33:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (33:26):
Yeah, So I'm curious.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
Season one, when we first talked about cruising, we sort
of touched on this idea of utopia, right, which J. S.
Muno's postulates is a very like theoretical kind of vibey
thing was always in the future. I think it's an
interesting thought experiment, and I'd like to know what would
an inclusive utopic cruising experience look like to you.
Speaker 3 (33:46):
I think it would it would look like a culture or.
Speaker 4 (33:50):
Community where we could do what we do and participate
in what we participate and not feel so guilty about it, not.
Speaker 3 (33:57):
Feel so bad about it afterward.
Speaker 4 (33:59):
A space that's that's welcoming of every body, every shape,
every size, every every color, every you know, ability slash disability, whatever.
And again, if somebody isn't into you, that you don't
feel bad about it, that we're secure enough and confident
enough to know that. That's that's just how it is, right,
(34:21):
That's that's what it would look like for me.
Speaker 1 (34:23):
Okay, Alex, Now we've reached hand of the interview, but
there's quite a bit more we'd like to ask you.
Speaker 2 (34:27):
So we're gonna go into some rapid fire questions. Okay, okay.
Speaker 1 (34:32):
So the first one is describe your Sniffy's profile pick
if you could ed approved.
Speaker 2 (34:40):
Good, amazing. What's the last message you received on Sniffy's.
Speaker 3 (34:46):
The last message I received? Hot?
Speaker 2 (34:49):
All right, let's flip this around. What's the last message
you sent on Sniffy's Thank you? All right?
Speaker 1 (34:56):
If you can describe the last person you fucked in
three words or less?
Speaker 3 (35:00):
Converse high tops?
Speaker 1 (35:02):
Oh right, god, I'm sensing a fetish all right?
Speaker 2 (35:07):
When you hook up is it your place, their place,
or a third place.
Speaker 4 (35:11):
It's their place or a third place, not out of
some weird you know, respect, but it's just my I
have really, really, really badly behaved dogs who are total
cock blockers.
Speaker 3 (35:23):
They'll just ruin the moment.
Speaker 2 (35:25):
Yeah. And I had a dog pee rain next to
someone's bed.
Speaker 4 (35:29):
Just yeah, that sounds like my dogs. No, no, my
dogs wouldn't. They would bite the person attack them.
Speaker 2 (35:37):
Before, So it's not good. I stayed all right.
Speaker 1 (35:42):
So this is a two parter. Part one, name an
unproblematic straight person.
Speaker 4 (35:46):
An unproblematic straight person. I know it's probably hard, but
oh my therapist good.
Speaker 3 (35:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:53):
And the second part is name a problematic queer person.
Speaker 3 (35:57):
Oh me, you got the ass.
Speaker 2 (36:04):
And that's why you're here. Yes, I love that. I'm
the problem. Yeah, I love all right.
Speaker 1 (36:11):
And if you can remember, what's the corniest opening line
that's ever worked on you?
Speaker 3 (36:15):
You look like Lex Luthor?
Speaker 2 (36:18):
Wow, and that will worked. I love that.
Speaker 4 (36:21):
Okay, he's a hobby, he's like a very like.
Speaker 2 (36:24):
He's a smart one. I'm not a DC person, so
I don't. Yeah. So you got two nerdy latinos in
the room.
Speaker 1 (36:32):
Yeah, yeah, all right, this is our last rapid fire question,
what is your most controversial take related to cruising, sex
or queer life.
Speaker 4 (36:42):
I think the most controversial one is that apps aren't cruising.
Speaker 3 (36:48):
Wait wait, wait, no, no, no, but I don't believe that.
Oh so that's not controversial. Okay, okay, that's not gonna work.
So you say that apps are cruising you.
Speaker 2 (36:57):
Your controversial take is that apps are our cruiser.
Speaker 4 (37:00):
Because I again, I am of a generation where I
cruise pre apps. So for a lot of men of
my generation, using apps isn't cruising, But for me it
is like you can't call you know, you can't call
it cruising if you're using Sniffy's regrinder or whatever. That's
not the same, but I think it is.
Speaker 2 (37:19):
Yeah, all right, Well this has been an incredible discussion, Alex.
Thank you so much for stopping by. It's been it's
been really lovely having you here much. Thank you, thanks
for making me cry.
Speaker 3 (37:29):
And thank you for the work that you're doing too.
Speaker 4 (37:31):
I have to say thank you for both of you
and for you know this this podcast and this opportunity
for us to come together.
Speaker 3 (37:36):
I think it's really important.
Speaker 2 (37:37):
Where can folks find you and your work on Sniffy's.
Speaker 3 (37:40):
If you I'm just kidding, you know what to look for.
Speaker 2 (37:43):
Now you.
Speaker 4 (37:47):
Know you can find me on I have a website,
Alexispinosa dot com. I have an Instagram TikTok every now
and again, excepted on dance. You can find my work
at bookstores. So I'm out there.
Speaker 2 (37:59):
Amazing, amazing.
Speaker 1 (38:00):
Thank you again Alex for joining us, and congrats to
our listeners for completing Cruising three to zero one.
Speaker 2 (38:06):
Yeah. I love being a teacher.
Speaker 1 (38:08):
Next up, we're going to hear another scandalous true sex
story from our special Cruising Confessions hotline. I can't wait
to hear what y'all are getting up to in the park.
Speaker 5 (38:18):
The park was hot.
Speaker 2 (38:20):
Today, Hey, diffies.
Speaker 5 (38:25):
I live in West Hollywood, California, and I had the
hottest public play experience. I love to jerk off and
play in public. And there was a profile two hundred
three hundred feet away from me, no face, just a torso,
(38:47):
and I messaged the profile to catch me jerking off outside.
When I was outside, I took a snapshot of my
dick and a location of like where I was by.
This guy walked out of a building nearby and walked
(39:08):
past me. And I was like, what's up? And he
didn't respond, and I was like kind of anxious about
it because I was like, oh shit, what if this
isn't up the person? And then he turned back a
couple times, and I was like, this is definitely him.
Had that happened? One came out of their building walking
their dogs, and I quickly put my clothes back on
(39:30):
and continued to walk after the guy. He turned back
and I was like, shit, where am I supposed to
go to? Like have this guy watch me jork off?
And there was these little stairs between some bushes and
a building. I went right on top of the steps
(39:50):
just between there, and I got super nervous, but I
heard like six steps coming back, and I took my
short sauce started stroking, and this guy stopped and watched
me jerk off passionately. I was moaning softly. I would
like gesture to him to like come closer, but he
(40:13):
never did, but he watched me play with my nipples
and just stroke my dick until I came. I coated
those steps with my load, and when we were done,
I saw that he was online again and I said
thanks for watching, and he just replied, damn that was
(40:34):
really fucking hot.
Speaker 1 (40:37):
I'm so interested in these kind of like stoic figures
that are interested in watching but aren't like pleasuring themselves
at all, aren't They're like, I'm just I'm here to
be an observer.
Speaker 2 (40:46):
I'm here to be a witness. And I think that's
so fun.
Speaker 1 (40:49):
I think that's like I don't know, because I'm wondering
if it's like does it take self control?
Speaker 2 (40:53):
Yeah? It must.
Speaker 1 (40:54):
It's like or you just like, oh, I just like
like you go bird watching, you, you know what I mean?
Speaker 2 (40:59):
You go like jerk off watching. Okay, I don't know.
I feel like if I'm watching someone jack off, I'm
gonna want to participate. It doesn't matter who they are.
Speaker 1 (41:07):
Well, it seems like a preamble, Yeah, something exactly right,
exactly Yeah. And also like very daring to like go
to a public spot and be like, all right, let's
let's go together to another spot. But then like kind
of like staggering your walk. That's commitment, that takes a
lot of coordination.
Speaker 2 (41:22):
It's a hot story, yeah, because.
Speaker 1 (41:23):
I would have been like, can we go back to
your place? But then it wouldn't be as fun.
Speaker 2 (41:26):
Yeah. The mystery of it all in sort of taken
out of it because now I'm seeing your apartment.
Speaker 1 (41:31):
Right exactly, and then I know too much about it,
and then and then I see the poster of your
favorite movie and the books that I judge and your DVD.
Speaker 2 (41:38):
Collection, and I don't want to know that. I want
your eyes on my dick while I'm jerking off on
the stairs. Now, would you do this kind of maybe?
Speaker 1 (41:46):
Yes, I am a little bit of an exhibitionist, but
it has to I'm also like very paranoid about like
either exposing myself to somebody should not be exposing myself to,
or like getting in trouble for doing stuff out in
pub So I do enjoy public play, and I do
kind of enjoy cruising and like having.
Speaker 3 (42:06):
Other people watch, but it's rare.
Speaker 1 (42:09):
Then I'm doing it not in the context of like
a queer event or a queer vacation spot or like
a known queer location.
Speaker 2 (42:16):
Yeah, I mean, I'm not out in the streets of
LA being like, hey, you know what I mean, like right,
and it's kind of a neighborhood area.
Speaker 1 (42:22):
Yeah, but that's the thing, because you're walkable too, is
there's way more foot traffic.
Speaker 2 (42:26):
But like if you're thinking about, like what time of night,
you know, like there're that many people walking in the street,
people drive like yeah for sure. All right. If you
want to hear your own cruising confession on an upcoming
episode of this podcast, you can call our Cuising Confessions
hotline at three zero two two one nine three eight
nine eight. That's three zero two two one nine three
(42:48):
eight nine eight.
Speaker 1 (42:49):
All right, what a show we should think. Alex Espinosa
again for stopping by. What incredible guest. I've been such
a fan of his book for so long. We were
gagged in very starstruck. And just what a refreshing combo
have at Approove, Yeah, Approove. Sniffy's Cruising Confessions is directed
by Adam Barron, produced by Amanda Kuper and Cameron Femino,
(43:10):
and executive produced by Eli Martin.
Speaker 2 (43:12):
Cruising Confessions is presented by Snippy's, the ultimate map based
cruising platform for kay by and curious people ready to cruise.
Check out the map at snippies dot com and fall
snitches at Snippy's app. Cruisers are a community. Do your
part in keeping us safe.
Speaker 1 (43:25):
Learn more about protecting your sexual help at Healthy Sexuals
dot com.
Speaker 2 (43:30):
Put jo put put jo, put put your put
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