Deal or No Deal

In “Deal or No Deal,” Bryce Zabel and Brent Friedman move their investigation from personal testimony into corroboration. After weeks of telling the story of the Dark Skies premiere party, the mysterious man who claimed to be from Naval Intelligence, and the offer to trade inside UFO information for story cooperation, they bring in their first outside witness: filmmaker Brett Leonard, who says he experienced his own version of Hollywood’s strangest possible pitch meeting. For Bryce and Brent, this is no longer just a story they remember — it becomes part of a broader pattern.

The episode asks the question at the heart of Sound, Light & Frequency: were Hollywood creators ever approached, influenced, or guided by people claiming access to the real UFO secret? Leonard’s account opens the door to a larger conversation about disclosure, disinformation, myth-making, and manipulation — and whether “the deal” was a one-time anomaly or one example of a hidden relationship between entertainment and the intelligence world.

As the title suggests, “Deal or No Deal” is about choice: whether to engage, whether to believe, and whether to risk being used. Bryce and Brent revisit the strange terms of the alleged offer made to them during the Dark Skies era, then compare it to Leonard’s experience to ask what may have been happening behind the scenes as UFO mythology moved from classified rumor to mainstream entertainment.

To learn more: www.SoundLightFrequency.com

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
So far, you've heard Brandon me tell our story the
night a guy showed up at our Hollywood TV premiere
party claimed he worked for a national intelligence group and
offered a well, let's just say, a very specific kind
of cooperation. Now, that story has always lived on the
fault line between show business and government, between that's impossible
and wait, that kind of tracks, and the only way

(00:23):
to deal with it all, honestly, is to keep looking
for corroboration, for patterns, for independent accounts. It's one thing
to talk about ourselves. It's another thing when someone else says, yeah,
that happened to me too. So today, for the first time,
on this podcast and on camera, we have another Hollywood creative,
a film director, who says he was approached in a

(00:43):
remarkably similar way to what happened to us. And whether
you think this is disclosure, manipulation, myth making, or all three,
this is the kind of first hand account that sharpens
the entire conversation. I'm Bryce's able. Have you ever wondered

(01:17):
if there's a secret connection between Hollywood and UFOs?

Speaker 2 (01:21):
I'm Brent Friedman, and you're listening to sound, light and frequency.

Speaker 1 (01:25):
We like to think that our show is an active
investigation into this issue.

Speaker 2 (01:29):
And today we're bringing our first witness to the stand.

(01:58):
So I'm thrilled to bring my good friend Brett Leonard
to our show today. I met Brett back in the
late eighties. I think it was through a mutual friend
in la and it was right after he had made
his first feature, The Dead Pit. Being a big horror buff,
we became fast friends, and I really I like to

(02:18):
think of it as having a front row seat to
watching Brett's career take off after he made The lawnmower Man,
as it was for me watching Yours Thank You, and
that was an adaptation of a Stephen King short story
where he got to show off that he was much
more than a filmmaker. He's always been an innovator, and
in lawnmower Man he took the concept of virtual reality

(02:41):
to a level no one had ever brought to the
screen before. After that, he went on to direct some features,
including Hideaway, which was an adaptation of a Dean Koontz
horror novel starring Jeff Goldbloom among others, and Virtuosity, sci
fi thriller starring Denzel Washington and Russell Crowe. Power cast
If there ever was one, But he's done much more

(03:03):
than movies. He's been working on the bleeding edge of
cinema and technology for decades. I remember being blown away
the first time I saw the three D Imax dinosaur
movie that you made. I also think you're probably one
of the only people who's ever made a CGI music
video to Peter Gabriel's to Kiss That Frog No Less,
that was also a ride simulator and then also went

(03:25):
on to win an MTV Movie Award. Am I correct?

Speaker 3 (03:28):
I think you're correct, because I have a very strange career.

Speaker 2 (03:33):
Anyway, We're thrilled to have you here on the show,
and there's so many things we can talk about, but
I want to start first with what happened to you
when you got offered your deal. Let's take us back
to the very.

Speaker 3 (03:46):
Beginning in the context of this particular podcast, which is
the deal with who Knows What from who Knows where?
And you know, it's interesting because you just gave a
little the history, and you know, I was again also
watching brent career start to take off after having you know,

(04:06):
slept on the couch of our friend, our mutual friend,
Randy Fontana's couch for about five years, you know, cold
calling everyone in Hollywood and watching us, you know, and
Brent was working on scripts and and mostly at Horror
at that time, and we were just you know, scrapping
away trying to get into this this crazy business, which

(04:26):
was an amazing business in the in the eighties nineties
when we started getting into it, and you know, in retrospect,
looking back at that period, definitely an interesting time that
is gone now it's a very different business than it was.
What happened is we both actually attained success. And part
of that weird success or the weird thing that came

(04:47):
with that was suddenly these people came out of the woodwork,
you know. And and when I heard about what happened,
I just recently heard the story from from from Brent
and and and Bryce, you know, about what they were
dealing with. I suddenly was taken back to this thing
that I almost kind of put in a place in

(05:11):
my history that I didn't go to think about much
because it was such a weird experience and it was
almost kind of like out of a movie itself. It
was like it was like, is Hollywood really this self reflexive?
You know that I remember thinking that at the time,
I was researching lawnmar Man, and part of the researching
of Lomerman was to research virtual reality technology. And one

(05:34):
of the places that had the most advanced virtual reality
technology in the planet was a place called the Ames
Research Center, which is south of San Francisco. It's connected
to NASA. NASA Ames, it has got the biggest flight
simulation system, I think in the world at that time anyway,
and that was the most advanced virtual reality system. It

(05:55):
was a thirty million dollar virtual reality system. And so
I threw some friends who I knew through living in
Santa Cruz at the time, and you know, part of
part of my living in Santa Cruz was I was
part of this cafe society that included people like Steve
Wozniak and Steve Jobs, and so I was just you know, crazy,

(06:16):
you know, kid trying to make science fiction movies, hanging
out with those guys and my friend Dan Daniel Kottke,
who was the first employee of Apple and was you know,
kind of mixed in with this whole DIGITII at the time.
And that was very exotic for me because I literally
had just come from Toledo, Ohio, very soon before that.

(06:37):
So talk about cultural yoga stretches of very vary intets,
and so going to the NASA Ames Research Center, I
was able to find a way in there through these
through these contacts in Santa Cruz, and I remember it
was a guy named Bob, and Bob was very open
to show me these things, and he obviously worked with NASA,

(07:00):
and but kind of worked with other things too. I mean,
I felt like he was coming from a more holistic
perspective with this level of technology and the fact it
was NASA and the Defense Department and all these things
and so and you know, being a bit of a
you know, semi paranoid conspiracy theorist, uh in some ways,

(07:21):
since I was a child, really uh, you know, I
I kind of started feeling strange things. And he kept
sort of questioning me about interesting, you know, aspects of
my research and why I was doing this film. And
you know, he found out what the you know, the
basic storyline of the film was. And if those of
you remember it, you know, it's very little to do

(07:43):
with the Stephen king short Story. By the way, the
Stephen Kings short Story had no virtual reality in it,
no technology in it whatsoever. So I really was creating
out of the whole cloth in many ways. And that's
a whole other story. But uh, and so it did
have to do with government research and virtual reality and
and brain research with virtually and things things that were

(08:04):
kind of esoteric and using of the neotropic drugs with
technology and these things that are you know, was very
exotic back then at you know, the late eighties, early nineties,
and so he was very you know, intrigued by the
fact I was thinking this way and said, look, I
think there's somebody you should talk to. And I'm like, okay,

(08:26):
what do you mean. And he says, well, just let
you know. There's there's things that I'm connected to that
I think you should be connected to as well, because
you're going to be working in Hollywood and you know
you're going to be Well that kind of like sat
there and and and sort of percolated for a while,
and I kind of, in honesty, didn't aggressively go to

(08:49):
make those connections because I was a little freaked out.
I was a little bit like.

Speaker 2 (08:54):
By by the guy himself.

Speaker 3 (08:56):
Yeah, by the guy, by the by the story, by
the by the context. It's like, well, I'm just trying
to get my career going making science fiction movies. Do
I have to deal with the government right now? You know?
I mean, and you know, of course, I just always
had some nefarious thing in my head. And of course
you think about Stephen King. I referenced one of his things,

(09:16):
the shop in uh in u in vertus I mean,
I'm sorry, in the Lomer Man. And so that was
a kind of paranoid governments gets uh, you know, conspiracy thing.
And so the whole thing was just like, well, I'm
going to kind of just do a moon walk back
back back, you know, and and and get away from
this little bit. I did until the movie came out

(09:38):
and it was a hit, and it was.

Speaker 2 (09:41):
I'm going to add up you right there because when
we talked about this earlier, you wo had also mentioned
that they had like a really strange VA program. Yes, yes,
I think we need to hear about the VR program.
I just want to jump in and clarify one thing.
By the way, nice to meet you on camera here.
One thing folks may not remember, may not know actually

(10:02):
is that Brent. You talked to Brett first and then
I said, don't even tell me the rest of this.
I want to be in a sound proof Isolation booth
so that I hear this story for the first time.
And by the way, Brett, I have been to Toledo, Ohio.
I don't know that that's important.

Speaker 3 (10:18):
That's kind of amazing.

Speaker 1 (10:20):
We believe in full transparency and disclosure here in satellite
and frequency, so I just wanted to bring that out.
But I just want to make sure I'm getting this
so that our audience is on board too. Tell me again,
who is this person that first approached you? Who was
that person?

Speaker 3 (10:35):
A guy named Bob At who worked at the NASA
Ames Research sete.

Speaker 2 (10:39):
Okay, this is who was Okay?

Speaker 3 (10:41):
Who was part of this you know, this group of
people that were showing me this thirty million dollar virtual
reality simulation flight simulation system and talking to me about
VR and my thoughts and VR. I mean, it was
it became very wide ranging and I actually, you know,
through that process, I made a lot of friends at
the Jet Propulsion Laboratory at JPL, you know, I got

(11:05):
involved and that that kind of that kind of group
of people because I you know, I could, I could,
I could talk story with him, you know, I could,
I could, we could do kibbits about a lot of
different things. And at one point, just part of the
Bob story that Brent just reminded me of. In the
context of doing this flight simulation demo, suddenly there was

(11:29):
a demo of something that was very surprising. It was
suddenly a demo of this craft came into the frame
of the fighter jet simulation with what can only be
described as non ballistic movement, and it was zoping around
and and then there was all these like indicators going on,

(11:50):
and there's all this because I wasn't flying. You know,
this is me getting the experience of the flying in
the in i think the right hand seat, well, the
simulator was being flown by someone else. And he goes, yeah,
this is a special program we have and then I'm like,
for for for unique and interesting circumstances. I'm like, okay,
first of all, this is a thirty million dollar five

(12:11):
simulation system. It's the highest inverts try in the world.
And they're showing UFOs on this thing as part of
the simulation for flight training. That was very very strange
because I asked him are these UFOs and he just smiled, right,
So yeah, but I'm telling you there was no way
there was these were you know, megs This was not

(12:33):
about that kind of This was a totally non baalistic movement.
It was showing a visual that that had, you know,
weird colors. There was a there was a level to
it that literally felt like it was a special effect
out of a science fiction film.

Speaker 1 (12:48):
And Brett before at the time that you were first
showing this, what was your opinion about UFOs. Did you
have any feelings about the one way or the other.

Speaker 3 (12:57):
Yes, I've experienced two major times my life. Absolutely experienced
what I know. It was something that was of the worldly.
One was on Manitoulin Island and I was there with
my family and with another family and I'll never forget
all of us watched this thing in the sky and

(13:18):
it was a brilliant sky because Mattu Line was very
very isolated wilderness place, you know, in the middle of
one of the Great Lakes. And we watched, you know,
I think I was ten years old, ten eleven, and
we watched it for several hours. It was it was
it was going all over the sky. It would go
to the other side of the island. It was definitely

(13:40):
experiencing non you know, expressing, non baalistic movement. I didn't
know what that was at that time. Of course I
didn't have the ability to express it. But and I
remember even my father, who was a science teacher, very
very empirical guy. Okay, this is not a guy that's
thrown to flights of fancy, let's put it that way.

(14:01):
He was truly intrigued and thought, you know what, this
is something absolutely different than normal aircraft. And because we
lost it for so long, it became a kind of
real foundation for me of just believing that there was
something out there that that was different, that that was

(14:21):
you know, what we call UFOs at the time, you know,
and and just that was always something informing me. Then
one at one point, this is an amazing weird story.
Later on, when I was about fifteen years old, I
took my father's Audie Fox car out of the driveway
very very late at night with my friend Joel Hazard,

(14:44):
and we just did it to go driving out into
sort of the cornfields on the outskirts of Toledo, just
to do it. I think we're going to smoke a joint,
you know, you said, oh, yes, yes, yes, no, totally
a lot of license, and we we pushed the car
out the driveway silently. Now again, if my father had

(15:05):
caught me doing this, I thought probably my life would
be over right. So this was actually a very I
think we were out at Oak Openings and we were
driving down this dark road just like out of Close Encounters,
literally like the one that hry NEARY is going down
when the ray road signs go crazy and I'll never
and I saw again a non ballist thing comes zipping

(15:28):
it stop and then as soon as it stopped, the
car died. Everything about it died. What wait a minute?
And then it zipped away and that car did not
come back to life until after it went to the
So my father did find out I stole the car.

(15:50):
My father can can actually use substantiate the story, because
there's no way I would have called him, you know. Literally.
I remember we had to walk to a farmhouse and
it was about dawn and by day I get up
early because he was an elementary school principal at that time.
And I called him and he asked the phone, where's
the car? And it literally all of the electrical system

(16:12):
was fried in the car.

Speaker 2 (16:14):
Wow, okay, it's just like Close Encounters.

Speaker 3 (16:17):
It was literally when I saw Close Encounters, which was
after that, not many years after that. Actually, actually it
was I literally had this flash that I experienced that
that scene, except it.

Speaker 1 (16:29):
Was in close encounters Roy Neary's car comes back to life,
so at least he didn't have to face anybody holding
his account.

Speaker 3 (16:37):
And I remember from my grandpa father he had to
come out and get it towed to an electrical place,
and it was like it was a it was a
big rigmarole. And you know, of course, my dad didn't
want to hear me telling any stories about UFOs. I mean,
you know, he just yeah, whatever, your dad, you you
ruin my car. You know. Plus I was fifteen and
didn't have a license, so you know, anyway that bad,

(17:00):
you know. So so that those those experiences, and there
were a few others in my more adult life that
have made me feel absolutely there are things going on
in our skies that are definitely in the realm of
u APS.

Speaker 2 (17:17):
Yeah, going back to the flight simulator, what you saw
was clearly similar in terms of the movement and everything
to what you'd seen in real life exactly.

Speaker 3 (17:28):
That's why I knew, that's how I had a correlation
to it. It was like when that reminds me of
being on manituline island and watching it.

Speaker 1 (17:36):
I want to drill just one step deeper on that though,
because you've seen that, You've seen two things, and you know,
sometimes you don't see them up close and personal like
you might in a flight simulator. Was the flight simulator
version literally like right out your window and you're seeing
structure and a craft kind of thing it was?

Speaker 3 (17:54):
It was not too much structure, It was a little
it was definitely round, and it was flashing like so
it was not a normal aircraft. It definitely was not
a normal verybody. But it didn't show a lot of
structural detail. Okay, what was what it was doing though,
was flying non ballistically. And then the simulator of the
fighter jet that I was in was obviously adjusting to

(18:16):
that that movement, right, So the guy was, you know,
sort of playing with this thing, and that was what
it felt like. It felt like, you know, they were
they were playing with something. I asked a bunch of
questions and Bob said, look, this is there's some people.
There's somebody I want you to meet. That's that's why
it kind of led to this this idea. And then I,

(18:37):
as I was saying before, I kind of didn't uh
go for that I didn't. I didn't pursue that very much.
But what happened was the movie was a big sort
of phenomenon. It was a hit and a kind of
phenomenon at the same time. And suddenly, out of the
out of the blue, Bob gives me a call and says, look,
I've got a guy that I want you to I

(19:00):
got a guy literally literally was it was almost that
it was almost like that, you know, I got a guy,
like yeah, exactly like a and.

Speaker 2 (19:08):
This was they're talking about like this is probably almost
a year, but after you'd met Bob, right, because you
were still.

Speaker 3 (19:14):
It was like a year and a half. It was
a year, two year and a half, yeah, which was
again sent a chill down my spine because the fact
that someone was reaching out to me now that I
had a successful film, I was like going, Wow, this
this is something. There's something actually happening here that's connected
to the fact that I have put something out in
the world that people have actually seen, and that thing

(19:37):
as a lot of you know, concepts in it that
are related to government, are related to secret research, all
of those things. So I was constantly going, am I
in trouble? I was you know, am I in trouble?
You know? And so my whole thing was, look, man,
I'm just a sign. I'm just telling fanciful stories. And
you know. Of course I was actually trying to base
it in real technology more than most. That was one

(20:00):
of the reasons I think it was on the radars,
because I was using actual, real virtuality technology. I was
showing sort of the real thing and the more fantastical
element of it simultaneously, which is kind of rare in
science fiction. So there was very much science fact in
that movie as much as there was science fiction. And uh,
and so that brought about this connection to this this

(20:24):
person that was introduced to me by Bob and I.
I got a call, uh, let's meet and I went
and met him. I can't remember his name. I I
remember he did give me a card, I asked him.
I he and I think I heard in your story
a thing about a car that didn't have much on
it that was exactly my same experience, exactly right dot C.

(20:53):
This was this was a guy's name and a number
and I and I one of the things I kept
trying to get from him was who do you work for?
Who the frick am I talking to here, you know,
I mean, because I was again in the back of
my mind going does this end with me in Blake Irons.
You know, I had no idea what the hell was
going on, and I, you know, I got comfortable talking

(21:16):
with him, and he eventually, like we went through all
the you know, D O D CIA eventually landed on NSA.
He said, well, the main agency I work for is
the NSA.

Speaker 2 (21:30):
The man said so he wow, so he worked from
that full agencies.

Speaker 3 (21:34):
Yeah, yeah, basically it was. And I don't know if
that was just him sort of giving me a you know,
a red herring or not. I don't know if he
because I tried to lock him down to CIA because
I really felt like this feels like CIA to me,
and and he wouldn't lock down to that, and they
finally he said, if I worked for the NSA, and

(21:54):
the NSA is a very secretive group, uh, you know,
it's about signals, uh, signal intelligence more than anything. And
that's why we're talking with people in the Hollywood environment,
because there are things that you're dealing with because you're
looking at actual science, you're looking at things that are
more fanciful in nature, and there are things we are

(22:17):
doing in the government that actually connect to the kind
of things you're talking about, including what you saw in
that simulator. And he referenced the experience I had in
the simulator, So he referenced the quote unquote alien aspect
of it as just part of you know, sort of
part and parcel of this overall thing. And we want
to know if you'd like to work with us or

(22:38):
you know, he was just wanting to do this connection
and kind of like the the idea that I would
be able to, you know, see things that others didn't
get to see that could maybe inform my stories. And
he was very seductive, very seductive. But that also was
weird because he didn't feel like a cop. He didn't

(22:59):
feel like an FBA, he didn't feel you felt like
someone trying to seduce me in a direction with and
I couldn't get a handle on what was the actual
purpose of that, Like are you trying to use me
for propaganda or are you actually someone trying to get
some truth out through the Hollywood connection, because I'm at

(23:21):
that time, you know, a younger Hollywood film director, and
there's you know, we're interested in these sort of things,
and you know, so when I heard your story, Brent,
it was literally reactivated. That chilled down my spine because
it was so many things that well, you know, obviously
different on the summary levels, but so many things that

(23:41):
were very similar in terms of the vibe, in terms
of the the overall sort of mystery of the experience. Now,
my reaction to that, again after I had experienced him,
was to hide from it. I wanted to just get
on with my work. I was worried that if I
got down some rabbit hole with this that I'm working

(24:04):
for the government. I mean, I you know, that wasn't
really something I wanted to do, and he did kind
of almost make it seem like that. Even in this
court of seduction part, there was all you know, there's
ways you can make money doing this, there's you know,
there was all these kinds of things that he was
sort of playing with in his uh, in his pitch

(24:25):
that came off of my questions. You know, I was
very very you know, like questioning of what the hell
is going on here? And so you know, there he
reached out a couple of different times. But part of
what he did in that first meeting, or was it
the second, I think it was the second meeting. There

(24:46):
was two meetings, and again this is this I'm unearthing
this in my because I literally buried it. I kind
of buried it and didn't, you know, didn't pursue it.
So it was something that got reactivated when when I
heard your story. He showed me my dossier, Your intelligence

(25:09):
dossier was this thick whoa and every movie I had
ever rented was listed, all of these things that were
really like personal going back to my high school days.
I mean, and I'm like, is this an They say,
is this? You know? Well just call your FBI dossier FBI.

(25:29):
Wait a minute, am I doing something wrong? You know?
And so he was very very like he was constantly
shifting the story a little bit, right, so I couldn't
fully land on exactly what is this? And yet he
was also trying to seduce me into being part of something,
even though for me, I wanted specific answers. I wanted

(25:51):
to know what the hell am I working for? What
is the purpose? Why? And that's just not what his
energy was that It was kind of like, that's kind
of cute and funny that you're asking those questions, Brett,
but you know, that's just not the way it works,
you know. I'm like, oh, well, that's the way I work,
you know. I'm sorry. I can't just give myself to

(26:11):
something without knowing what the you know, the sort of
moral framework of it is, and all these other things.
And so when I saw the dossier, I realized, holy shit,
this is a real thing. This is actually connected to
me being someone that's had a lot of people see
my work that I you know, because of there being

(26:34):
some success there, and I'm making a hit film that
had scientific components and all these ideas in it. That
I was now in this sort of track, you know,
and that terrified me. I did not want to be
on that track. I wanted to be doing what I
wanted to do in my own way without having to

(26:55):
be in that track and be working. So I literally
kind of almost aggressively ran the other way.

Speaker 1 (27:10):
How long from the time where you sat down with him,
I guess for the second time and heard the pitch.
How long from that time to when you felt that
you had to make a decision and you had to
just get off the fence and tell the guy you
weren't interested no right away?

Speaker 3 (27:24):
And I never fully told him. I just I did
a fade. I mean I basically ghosted him. Yeah, I mean,
and you know I was moving. You know, I was
getting more money at that time in my life. You know,
I had more fruit flexibility. I was able to, you know,
go to Hawaii and live there for multiple months in
the jungle and then come back and make a movie.

(27:45):
I mean, to say I lived a crazy wild life
of the film director would be an understatement. I won't
get into all the details, but just let me tell
you I have a good imagination.

Speaker 1 (27:56):
Let me just say one word, Colonel Kurtz. Anyway, anyway,
I get the I totally get the idea that you said,
I don't want to do it. But my question also is,
did you at least a night or two stay up
late and consider the possibility that you would in fact
need to take this because it was so unusual and so.

Speaker 3 (28:16):
Many nights, many nights, many nights, many and actually there
were times there were times when I would later, after
sort of assuring this, I would sort of kick myself
and think, well, damn it, maybe I should have you know,
maybe this is benign. Maybe this is some part of
that structure reaching out to me. Because I was a

(28:36):
storyteller and who knows. Maybe they reached out to HG. Wells,
and they reached out to Jules Verne, and they reached
out to you know, and I'm just, you know, I'm
sure I could have been in that line of kind
of communication, you know. And I mean there was all
those thoughts, you know. It's like, but I must say,
I go by my own instinct, and there was something off.
It was something a little off. And I don't know

(28:58):
if you guys felt that or not, but there was
something a little off. Now, the thing that it might
be off that I think now he could have been
an alien.

Speaker 2 (29:09):
It's so funny that it's so funny that you say that,
because you know that rings a bell. Yeah. For years,
when Bryce and I would talk about this and reminisce
about JC and the party crasher, it was always like, well,
was he really who he said he was? Was he
really was? Or was it a hoax? Or And then

(29:31):
it wasn't until years later when I told my daughter
the story, right, and she was in her twenties at
that point, and without a beat, she said, well, how
do you know he was human? And I kind of
was taken aback because at that point, you know, now,
We're hearing all these stories about hybrid programs and humans
that are living amongst us as aliens, So I can't

(29:54):
completely rule that out.

Speaker 3 (29:56):
Look, let me say it in the way that I
experienced it. The weird feeling I got was not a
weird feeling that was necessarily evil, right. It was a
weird feeling like there was a strange glint in his
eye kind of thing, like like there was something there.
And again, because the story kind of bunced around and

(30:19):
in its factual nature and the way he was presenting
it didn't feel had it didn't have a continuity with
the rest of my normal human experience with people. Right,
it was it was like this is on the outside
of it was just odd And now I look at
it and I go that oddest was kind of a

(30:40):
feeling of alienists. It was feeling like it was it
wasn't somebody, you know, And I've now, you know, researched
all kinds of things about walk INDs and all kinds
you know, all kinds of you know, aspects that I'm
going was that, you know, a shell person that I
was talking to. And the more I think that, of course,

(31:00):
quality of memory is an interesting and mutable thing. The
more I feel like there were things about it that
absolutely fit that idea. And because of that, there's some
of my regret is there. It's kind of like the
regret I was roy neary going to get onto the
mothership and then I said, no, you know, I mean

(31:24):
that's a you know, hyperbole, but it's still a feeling
of that. Like I kind of said, notice something because
I felt it was outside of my experience that would
there be something I could control. And so because I
wanted to control where my you know, my career was
going and how I wanted to tell stories, and I

(31:46):
pushed it away. But was I pushing away something that
would have been an absolutely unique experience?

Speaker 1 (31:52):
You know, let me just throw this one thought out there.
I get the alien part of it, But for my
own take, when this guy JC approached us, my first
take was, this guy's gotta be putting this on. I mean,
it just seemed too radical happening to us. And and

(32:12):
then and then we saw him as a second time
as you did. But then I started to go it
sure seems a little more real than that. But I
never thought aliens, So my, I guess there aren't. There's
three options in this thing. One is disinformation or hoax,
the there is authentic government appeal. And for me, the

(32:36):
outlier was the alien thing, because I thought the guy
acted pretty human and I was willing to buy into
that story. I just I just wasn't clear what their
angle was. So was the dis info versus real government
approach part of your debate?

Speaker 3 (32:54):
That was that was the That was how I was
thinking then. And and it's interesting you said you thought
was he putting you on? At first with Bob, I
thought Bob was kind of joking with me right at
the ames. And then when he followed up later after
the film came out and was like thing I wanted,
you know, I realized, Oh, it's not a joke. He
wouldn't go to this elaborate, you know thing to do that.

(33:15):
And then when I met the guy at first I thought, oh,
maybe this is a who knows, is this some comedy
team doing something? Yeah? I mean literally, because it was weird.
The moment that cemented it for me was when he
showed me my dossier, a physical thing, a physical thing

(33:37):
like for a while, like I got to you let
me look at it for a while, and it was
incredibly comprehensive. So someone put that together that was serious.
You know, it wasn't out of nowhere. It wasn't something
that was you know, put together as a gag saying
it was real.

Speaker 2 (33:55):
Did you feel like when I when I hear you
say that, I it, you know, kind of my haunches
And because it feels like a threat, it feels like
there's everything we know about you, yes, and we can
use it for you.

Speaker 3 (34:11):
Or again the way he said it was like, oh
I got something to show you. You know, it was
like that at some point in the end, then what right?
And I'm like, even though it didn't wasn't overtly feeling threatening,
the whole thing felt threatening. That's why I that's why
I backed away, you know, because I felt if I

(34:34):
keep going and really poking this bear, what's this bear
going to turn into? And at that point I didn't
think alien, but but later on that came to be
more of the thought process.

Speaker 1 (34:48):
Brett, I want to ask you how you've felt about something.
I know when this was happening to me and Brent,
I didn't even know the phrase at that point. The
m m RPG isn't that massive multiplayer role playing?

Speaker 3 (35:00):
Yeah? Broke like playing game exactly. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (35:01):
Yeah, So later when I was aware of that term,
I always felt like Brent and I had been targeted
by somebody that had built an MMRPG around us, and
that whatever their motivations were, whether they were I guess
disinformation or the real thing or I guess even now
alien or whatever, somebody had put some time into the

(35:24):
approach to us that exceeded casualness. It exceeded somebody being
in their parents' basement looking for a lark. It seemed
like it was well laid out. And that's why I
find the thing about them having their file on you
and it I mean, yes, did you see anything in
the file that was incorrect that would make you.

Speaker 3 (35:45):
Want that one thing? That one thing was incorrect? It
was a serious like some law enforcement agency has. And
it was kind and he basically saying like, well, because
you made this hit film dealing with science and it
has government ideas, this is is what we do. And
and he was suggesting that that was a normal thing

(36:07):
for people in Hollywood, that I should just you know,
accept that, and that the NSA had those kinds of
that kind of information on people. I don't believe in it,
and I think I don't believe that has that. The
one part of this story that I mostly told other
people and you you talk to many friends of mine,
was the fact that this guy showed me my dossie

(36:28):
at one point after I had a hit film. That
was the distillation the story got down to, because it
was such a radical moment. It was like, what, oh, man,
you know, I guess there's a there's a sacrifice you
make when you get into the public eye and you
put out ideas out there that you know are beyond
what you you know, traditionally think, unless you're watching science

(36:50):
fiction movies that have these kinds of plots all the time.
I mean, it's like out of war games or you know.
I mean, it's you know, it's it's it. That's why
I felt so self for flexive. To me, it felt
like I was in a movie of my own movie career.

Speaker 1 (37:06):
You know, yeah, right, Brent, You and I felt that
that's I mean, I remember saying that to you at
the time, feeling like I feel like, not only are
we having this interaction with this person, but that other
people were observing the interaction and it wasn't just the
event itself. It was a larger context, and so it

(37:27):
had a weird level of artifice to it.

Speaker 3 (37:29):
Except that that's that's the vibe when I say there's
a twinkle in his eye, that that's the part of
it that still to this day is the vibe I
take away from it, like this thing outside of normal
life sort of descended on me for a little while.
And I was in this role play in a way.

(37:50):
You know. That's why it feels, for lack of a
better term, kind of alien. You know, it's it's outside
of you know, it was an ultra ultra experience, you know.
And and uh, and then later in my life that
not too many years ago. Actually, there are a few
things that have happened that kind of feel connected to it.

(38:13):
I didn't tell you about this before, bradback because I
remembered it after we talked. I got involved. I think
I'm even told you this a few years back in
this documentary series about the Cicada arg You know what
Cicada is, the CATA three through twenty one. It's a
big online game that was one of the first major ones.

(38:37):
There's huge amounts of controversy around it. It eventually got
connected to QAnon, not that that's where it started. But uh,
and there was a there was a man who was
very involved with it and one of the supposed the
founder of this this this online game. Uh. And then
there was all this intrigue that happened between the players

(38:58):
on a global basis and and came There was actually
a CNN documentary about it, and the HBO documentary about
Q and on Q has a bunch of that in
there about Cicada. So if you want to look into
it and look up Cicada thirty three twenty four, I think, yeah,
that was the the monocery. By the way, it's still
out there. It's still an ongoing. It came out of

(39:21):
eight Tran, you know, on Fortran. I mean, I mean
came out of you you know, the dark the Dark
Web and uh. And so it was fascinating to me
as a story. But then when I got involved, I
felt kind of the presence of the same energy that
I had felt with that those those guys, you know,
Bob and the guy who I can't remember his name,

(39:42):
and it has connections to a similar sort of hidden
government element that seems to have a couple of times
reached out to me. I didn't chase this stuff. This
chased me. And that's one of the weird parts about it, right.
I Mean, there's many ideas that I've gone after, Like
you know, you guys of course, have gone and gone

(40:02):
and developed and researched and were chasing. These are things
that chase me. And I wasn't really wanting them to
chase me, but they as I got more deeply in
the you know, you would feel this this interest and
also this kind of rror, you know, a frision about
it that because it felt ultra it felt outside, you know,

(40:27):
And that's that's the when you said you're talking to
you about your story. That's the feeling that was that
was awakened in me about this memory, which I had
really not thought about for many years. In all honesty,
one of the sception.

Speaker 1 (40:42):
You just said is how seductive it was. You said
it was very seductive, and I'm just I'd like to
define that a little bit more for our audience. I mean,
I think both Brent and I could be I mean,
I think all of us when somebody approaches you like that,
you sort of part of you, no matter how scared
you might be or how strange it is, You're also

(41:04):
saying I must be special, right Exactly, They've sought me
out because I'm special, and of course who doesn't want
to feel special? So i'd be part of the decision
process is asking yourself.

Speaker 2 (41:17):
Am I really special?

Speaker 1 (41:18):
Or is it just the position I have right now
that's special?

Speaker 3 (41:21):
Or exactly?

Speaker 1 (41:23):
Walk me through your process of trying to separate the
way they were coming at you psychologically with how you
finally said I'm not doing this.

Speaker 3 (41:33):
Well, first, you're very flattered. I mean, it's it feels like, oh,
I hit some I hit some chords here. You know,
I plucked the right chords. And obviously I'm really smart
because I'm plucking the right chords and some of the
things I'm talking about are actually maybe true or are
related to something that's very true. And at first you're,

(41:53):
you know, as a storyteller, you get, as they say
in Australia, chuffed, you know, chuffed about that. You know,
you could wow, okay, man, you know, I got my
hands on the pulse or something, you know, But then
you wonder, what is it the pulse.

Speaker 1 (42:07):
Of I just want to get one thing in here,
because I'm afraid people that are listening are going to
say I just want to make really clear, Like it
was clear to me and Brent what they wanted us
to do. They wanted to give us stuff, information that
we would somehow write into the show as part of
a slow drip disclosure. So the guys that approached us
were not confusing about it their mission. A lot of

(42:30):
things were confusing, but the mission seemed clear.

Speaker 3 (42:33):
Yeah, that's one of the things that's different. What did
they want you to do? Exactly? That they were more
wanting me to be part of something that then they
would be sort of feeding me, like the idea that
I'd be fed information and that I could incorporate that
information into my storytelling as a storyteller. Because again I
was a singular director, writer, you know, and it was

(42:56):
working in this realm and it didn't get as specific.
You guys had a network show you know that was going.

Speaker 2 (43:04):
We had a live platform, the.

Speaker 3 (43:05):
Data, so they could be very concrete with you. It's like, well,
let's use this platform. They were much more Again, it
was more like a seduction of me becoming part of
something that would be ongoing for my whole career. That's
how they made it feel to me, like you could
be part of you know connected, you know, and and

(43:26):
and because because you're so precient you could be connected
to something, We're going to give you an edge. That
was the seduction.

Speaker 1 (43:33):
Were you supposed to be part of this simulation? Were
you going to be assigned to that? Or was that
just to show you the bells and whistles?

Speaker 3 (43:40):
That was just to show me the bells that that was.
That was for me in my research of virtual reality,
written large because I was making a movie about it,
right so, and I was very fascinating. I continued to
research virtual reality and I'm you know, to all the
way to where I'm doing actual virtual reality and healthcare now,
you know, I mean it's storytelling with virtual reality turned

(44:02):
into you know, a kind of life focus of using
simulation in a healing way. One of my friends, doctor
Skip Rizzo, he saw the lawnmar Man, you know, thirty
some years ago. He then was inspired by it because
it had to do with virtually changing brain chemistry changing,

(44:23):
you know, the neuroplasticity of the brain was actually shown
in the film. These were pretty advanced concepts, and he
he got inspired to take his therapeutic research in that direction.
He's run the ICT lab at USC for twenty five
years and has been at the primary VR clinician on
the planet. He's one of my co founders in my company,

(44:44):
Ubiquity VX, which is using virtual therapies for health and wellness.
So and there's and and by the way, the Veterans
Administration is incredibly involved with that because they utilize thirty
to forty virtual therapies uh in their in their corpus
of care. And so it's ah, and again do these

(45:06):
is this thing from the past connected to how I
mean think about it. I'm a director, I'm involved with
real virtual reality in therapy. You know. That's a strange
career path. Yeah, I'm saying, you know, I mean, I'm
in healthcare, you know. And by the way, it's been
an amazing journey. I I'm it's it's it's uh turning
out to be a very successful thing that we're developing

(45:29):
and you know, right now in a very incredible process.
And uh, you know it's so for something that started
for me as a story, I've walked into the reality
of it and I'm doing the real thing in a
very specific sensibility, which is the sensibility of using it
for healing, you know, So which by the way, is

(45:50):
because doctor skip Rizzo inspired me with his work.

Speaker 2 (45:53):
To go in that direction. Yeah, you know, fascinating, But it's.

Speaker 3 (45:57):
All those things are connected into the government in some way.
I mean I'm saying. I mean, if again, if I
look at the strangeness of my career, I'm wondering, are
there invisible hands in there somewhere, you know, in not
just guiding me, but also guiding where it gets taken?
Because it seems strange that I would actually have these

(46:20):
things come. You know, you don't usually tell a story
and then suddenly you're involved with the actual reality of
that story, you know, thirty years later, and it's a
kind of trippy, almost psychedelic experience in a lonesty.

Speaker 2 (46:34):
Absolutely. But on the topic of telling stories, you said
something which is fascinating to me. You said that when
you would tell your story, you would really just distill
it down to the dossier. Yes, I'm curious, a how
many times had you told the full story everything you
just told us before now? And if you didn't tell it,

(46:58):
you know, in whole how come.

Speaker 3 (47:01):
I felt I needed to be in it during the
earlier part of my life. Anyway, in a very intimate
level of relationship with someone to tell that story. First
of all, I don't know if they would have believe it.
I didn't want to tell something that sounded like some
bullshit story, right, And so there's only really a couple
people that I had very close relationships with. But I
told that story too fully in the past, primarily some

(47:24):
of my partners. But when you told your story, it
activated a whole other thing in me. It was I realized, Oh,
now's the time to tell out and tell the story.
Now's the time to deal with this. I mean, if
not now, when you know this is the this is
the you know, this phase of my life and my career,
and you know I am a storyteller, and this is

(47:44):
a true experience that I had, and it's schemes to
be connected to something that's going on right now that's
much much, much larger, because I feel like we're on
the cut the precipice of a quickening regarding the alien question.
I just feel that that's we're in the middle of
it in a way that's different than the other times

(48:06):
we may have felt that in the past. It feels
by the.

Speaker 1 (48:09):
Way when you say the quickening, I remember Art Bell
wrote that book a book called The Quickening.

Speaker 3 (48:14):
Yes, matter of fact, I was. I was at a
party with Art Bell at the very beginning of my
career called the Mad SCIENTI this weekend put on by
Marilyn Ferguson, the woman who wrote The Crack and the
Cosmic Gig. And it was this crazy called it was
called the Mad Sign This weekend. It was at this
this multimillionaire's mansion in Atherton, you know, near the Names
Research Center by the way, you know, And and Art

(48:37):
Bell was there and I talked to him about some
of these things. But this is before I made the
Longer Man, way before you know he was he was,
you know, towards the end of his life at that time.
But anyway, what so you told that up? You told
us the name of Bob. I'm just did you tell
us the name of your contact? Again? I can't remember?

(48:58):
You just can't remember it.

Speaker 1 (49:00):
That leads me to ask another question, though, because this
is you know, brend and I have selectively told a
few people about the story. But then we started talking
a little bit publicly, but never in the detail that
we have obviously right now. And one of the things
that has come to light when we talk about it
now is. Occasionally I have somebody go well, did you
ask for identification? And I go, uh no, Now, I'm

(49:24):
a I'm a journalist by training.

Speaker 3 (49:26):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (49:27):
The very first thing I should have done is said, okay,
you're you're from the Office of Naval Intelligence, show me something,
show me your ID, show me your military I D
And all I can say is, in the middle of
this weirdness, it just never seemed like you know what.

Speaker 3 (49:43):
I never did. I did ask for it, though, good
for you, I was. He would get that little twinkle
in his eye, Okay, it would, it would, and he goes, well,
you might say the c i A, you know, and
I'm like, well do you Well, I'm not going to,
you know, can't. We're not at that phase yet. And
then I'm like, well, what really it come on? And
then he again, he eventually landed on the end as

(50:06):
if he was sort of like giving me the real thing,
the NSA that was that was his way of giving
and I had not even I had barely heard of
the NSA at that point. I mean, I didn't, you know,
I had to study what that was, you know, and
how it came out of signal intelligence in the you know,
World War Two and all the you know the history
of that, and it's a very weird, arcane history, even

(50:29):
compared to the CIA history.

Speaker 1 (50:31):
You know, tell our audience what you mean by signal intelligence.

Speaker 3 (50:34):
Well, that means you know, the capturing of of coded signals,
you know, the Enigma Project. Those are the kinds of
things that became the NSA. Uh you know, I mean
obviously in Europe there were other versions of it, but
in America it became the NSA and they basically look
at all the signal I mean I think uh uh

(50:55):
Snodent worked for the NSA, you know that that was
that that that that whole area of surveillance, of capturing.
You know, if you look at what Palenteer is, Palenteer
to me seems like a private organization, you know, extension
of what the NSA was or is, you know, and

(51:15):
where one one ends and another begins, who knows, given
what's going on right now in our body politic, so
it's almost like they're really doing it but lying about it.
You know, it's just the whole thing right now I
believe we're on is all part of this quickening we're
talking about where you know, where a lot of things
are coming to the fore in relation to surveillance, privacy,

(51:36):
signal intelligence, and possibly underpinning all of it is this
alien question.

Speaker 1 (51:47):
If you're going to talk about the quickening, and you
know what that kind of means is, there's just a
sense that things are in the air that are happening.

Speaker 2 (51:54):
There's a couple of things.

Speaker 1 (51:55):
I just have to ask you, because I'll hate myself
if I don't ask it in this time. First, if
you had a if out of nowhere Bob showed up
again right now and said, hey man, we want to
have another lunch or a dinner. And you go to
that meeting and this guy is there and he says, okay,
you know I heard you doing the sound, Light and

(52:17):
Frequency podcast. That sounded very interesting. No offense, not taking
any fence, but how would you like to take us
up on our offer?

Speaker 3 (52:24):
Now?

Speaker 2 (52:25):
What would you tell that person?

Speaker 3 (52:27):
I might, I might go down that rabbit hole. I might.

Speaker 2 (52:31):
What's changed? What's changed?

Speaker 3 (52:33):
What changes? I think that here's what's changed. I think
that the black and white version of the world that
I may have had as a younger person, I don't
have that black and white version anymore. It's very much
a lot of grays and other tones and colors. And
I think that there are probably pretty amazing people or

(52:53):
non people involved with things that may be connected in
a way that would connect to my own own, for
lack of a better term, light, sound and frequency, you know,
at the core of my soul, you know. And if
I felt there was an alignment, a soul alignment, or
you know, for lack of a better term, an ethical
alignment and moral alignment, however someone would want to express

(53:15):
it for me, it would I would express it literally
as a spiritual alignment. I would I would want to
go there as part of my own spiritual journey. So,
because part of my journey has been looking at other
you know, other worldly mystical energies, I've experienced a lot
of things in my search for you know, just all

(53:36):
the crazy paradoxes that exist in our in our reality,
in our world. And this is such a potent one
and such a juicy one. I don't think I could
resist to tell you the truth.

Speaker 1 (53:48):
Over the years, Brent, you and I have gotten together
and off and on on various projects we've worked on,
and every once in a while we're discussing it. Our
minds kind of drift, and we kind of think, what
would our lives have been like if we said yes,
that's so exactly something bread my friend, If that's my question,

(54:09):
when you lay awake at night and you moll in
your mind, what would have happened if I said yes,
that was thirty some years ago for you, Yeah, it
was Okay, we're not the same person. But and in fact,
you're a person who said no thirty years ago, and
so now you're saying maybe this time I would. Let's
imagine for a second you'd said yes, what would your

(54:31):
life be like today in your opinion?

Speaker 3 (54:33):
You know, I've I've considered like, would that have supercharged
my career? Would that have destroyed my career? Would that have?
You go all the different ways with it in terms
of you know, when you're in the middle of the night,
facing the facing the dark ceiling, you know, it's like
you're just you're thinking all the different possibilities and and

(54:56):
you go, I wonder if there are others that it
said yeah, yes, that I'm very aware of and that
are out there doing things connected to that. And then
you look at what Steven Spielberg's doing right now with
they have disclosure and everything else he's done, you know,
in the realm of and you go. I bet he said, yes.

Speaker 1 (55:19):
Did you have anybody in your life, Brett, was there
anybody in your life important in your life when this
went down that you went to them and said, yes,
you got it. I gotta tell you, because I'm sure
Brent and I each were you know, probably talked to
our significant others at the time, but mostly to ourselves.
And at least Brent and I had somebody to talk to.
You had to bring somebody in tell us how that

(55:41):
went down.

Speaker 3 (55:42):
So my partner, Jamille Everett, who was also the writer
co writer of Lomerman, was the producer of Lomerman, was
both my wife, my first wife, and my filmmaking partner.
We broke into Hollywood together from nowhere, from nothing. Brent,
you knew Jamil, Yes, yes, And Jamil was an extremely

(56:06):
spiritual person. Okay, she was a master Yoghini. You know
her whole life. She was really raised me as a
spiritual person, as a man and as a filmmaker. She
passed on about fifteen years ago, almost twenty now, and
she was extremely influential in my life and was my

(56:28):
partner in all of these early adventures, and of course
I went directly to hear with this, and she kind
of agreed that we should leave it alone. Was she
felt in her instincts there was something there that could
have been stabilizing. And we're truly you know again, you
think about we're just we just made our first hit movie.

(56:50):
We're trying to solidify what that means in our life.
And as you know, filmmakers, of course, at that point,
the career in filmmaking was everything. It was something that
felt like a direction. In some ways, maybe it was.
And she was someone that I think persuaded me, not
in a really drastic way, because she wasn't someone who
was scared. He was scared of much. She was a

(57:12):
very fierce, intense person, but she did I think was
part of me sort of walking away from it.

Speaker 1 (57:20):
I have a question for you, Brent. Yes, when you
hear Brett tell this story and how he felt and everything,
how is it changing how you feel about her own
experience or has it?

Speaker 2 (57:31):
It's kind of affirming a lot of my own feelings
and sensibilities that I also had a hard time articulating.
To me, the word I would use was surreal. Yes,
And and you know, obviously you're at your premiere party
for your first show on network television and a guy

(57:54):
comes out of the bushes and start wants to start
talking about a deal with the government. Like I just
I was not prepared in any way, shape or form
to have that conversation. But he seemed like it was
the most ordinary thing to be having this, Like why
wouldn't we be having this conversation?

Speaker 3 (58:12):
And then that's where that's where my experience was similar.
They were very much very like, Hey, this is just
you know, this is what happens man, what happens with what? When? Oh,
when you're doing? What kind of thing you're doing? Oh? Okay?
And that I mean I think he did reference. You know,
not many people do what you do. Remember, not many
people make hit films. Not many people get a concept

(58:32):
out into the world that you know, is going to
you know, affect technology and these kinds of things. I'm like, okay,
I guess you're right, you know, so again that's part
of the seduction.

Speaker 2 (58:43):
Yeah. I also think too, that the other aspect of
this that is fascinating. It's it's harder to articulate, you know.
When Bryce and I were both telling our story in
episode one, we made you know, we brought to the
surface effect that he remembers seeing JC differently in terms
of how he was dressed than I did. Right, So

(59:04):
you go, was that just the rassam On effect or
is there something about a guy like this that has
a weird aura around where it's just hard to remember
certain details.

Speaker 3 (59:17):
Let me talk to that because as we've been talking
just now, because uh, Bryce, you asked me a couple
of times, did you not remember this guy's name? Yeah?
I have a very good memory. I am not someone
who doesn't remember details. I mean I made giant technological films.
You have to have a good memory. I mean it's
you know, you you just have to have that facility

(59:39):
with facts and with things. And so the fact I
can't remember him exactly, it is weird.

Speaker 2 (59:47):
It is weird.

Speaker 3 (59:48):
It's like, it's weird. I would usually absolutely remember that guy, right,
and and think of that almost in a photographic memory sense,
that that that card and it's an I can't see
his name. So what you do with the card? It
went with the winds of the winds kind of what

(01:00:10):
happened to you exactly? Just it just got put somewhere
and then who knows that many many.

Speaker 1 (01:00:19):
Changes, as our audience knows. We did have the first encounter,
if you will, our close encounter at our party. But
then JC came out to the Dark Guy's offices with
his so called boss and they proceeded to brief us.
So we had about an hour and a half conversation
with two guys who were floating we're not going to

(01:00:40):
get into that right now, but they were floating their
version of what was going on in the nature of
reality and the universe and all that, right, So in
other words, they weren't actually looking for us to tell
to tell them anything. They just want to know if
we wanted in, and they were sort of floating ideas
to us. Did the gentleman you met with ever flowed

(01:01:01):
any ideas about the what was going on with this
whole UFO issue or or did it not get into
that detail?

Speaker 3 (01:01:09):
No, he did. He he was The overall tenor of
it was that you're onto something. You are somebody who
sees the truth. This is part of the seduction again,
right And because of that, as a storyteller, you know,
and your prescience, you could be useful and I think
we could be useful to you. That was the context

(01:01:33):
for me. It was in the context of, you know,
almost like of course you believe in aliens, you know,
and you know, again, I love job owning about all
kinds of things, and we job owned about interdimensional concepts,
and you know, the idea of you know, not being

(01:01:54):
metal ships, as Jeff Goblum says in the Philip Kaufman's
remake of the Invasion of the Body Statures, you know,
it's like, it's not about metal ships, It's about something
beyond metal. It's about something that is interdimensional in nature.
And I did talk to those kinds of concepts with him,
almost in that you know, speed wrappy kind of wild,

(01:02:14):
you know, having a wild conversation with a friend idea,
you know, a way of being. And he would nod
his head and go, yes, again, you you're onto it,
as if he was confirming that I was onto the
nature of reality. Now I took that with a grain
of salt, and I felt like it was more of
a seduction, and so I would I didn't, you know,

(01:02:36):
I didn't let my I didn't let that totally work
for me. I was I let I kind of became
skeptical of the fact that he was using that technique
in some ways.

Speaker 1 (01:02:46):
So we are at the end of our line there,
but we can't. We can't let this end without asking
you just one basic question. Sure, you've had a long
time to think about this, as as we have of
and as many of our listeners have given great amounts
of time and research and study to thinking about this.

(01:03:07):
At the end of the day, now knowing everything, you know,
the experiences you've had, this conversation, this reawakening in your
mind about Wow, that really happened to me, what do
you think two parts? I guess what is going on
in terms of the secrecy around this that probably is
going on today, But even more than that, what do

(01:03:29):
you think is the nature of what we're dealing with
when it comes to this phenomenon? What do you think's
going on?

Speaker 3 (01:03:38):
Okay, well, I think that the secrecy has been something
that had to be kept in place because of the
idea of societal disruption. And maybe they're right about that,
maybe that was a wise thing to do. I think
we're coming to a point of kind of chaos theory
where everything is so mutable in our culture, the idea

(01:04:02):
that truth isn't truth anymore, and that you know, there's
not one truth but multiple truths. And you know, I
like to say one of my favorite phrases is the
truth is in the paradox, you know, because there's so
many paradoxical things in modern culture and in the idea
of human consciousness and how we experience it. At this point,
with you know, almost eight billion of us on the planet,

(01:04:24):
that we're coming to this quickening, that we're coming to
a moment where the fabric of the that's been that's
been accluding, that is dissolving, The veils are dissolving, and
there's a there's a truth there that's beyond what I
think we could even possibly imagine. And that to me

(01:04:46):
is incredibly exciting because if I can totally imagine it
right now, how boring is that? Right?

Speaker 2 (01:04:51):
Right?

Speaker 3 (01:04:51):
I want to actually discover something. I want to be surprised. Now,
I don't necessarily want to be surprised, and you're all
going to become food and food tubes. I don't want
to be surprised.

Speaker 1 (01:05:03):
That want a good surprise, or at least one that
has multivariate nature to it, right, And I think that
we're on the cusp of something that truly relates to
some of the largest questions why we're here, what really
is existence?

Speaker 3 (01:05:21):
Life and death? Those questions related to the idea of alienness,
I believe is something that the veils are going to
dissolve away and are going to be more connected than
ever now. I think there's going to be different lanes
of the highway that you could sort of come on.
There's there's a there's an apocalyptic lane over here, and

(01:05:44):
you could choose to be in that, and that's like
a you know, a million car pile up, and then
there's the fast lane over here. You can just shoot
past that and go into a whole other different reality.
It's all a choice of your own consciousness and what
it's going to be perceiving as the truth as relates
to your own deepest essence, and that I think is

(01:06:06):
the moment we're and that's what I mean by the
moment of the quickening.

Speaker 2 (01:06:10):
I think that's a fantastic interpretation of things. I tend
to agree with a lot of it, and I think
this is a great place to end the conversation because
I don't know how we can top it. So I
just want to say thank you so much Brett for
remembering your story and then actually agreeing to come on
and share it with us in our audience.

Speaker 3 (01:06:29):
And thank you for activating it in me, because it's
actually been a very positive thing that this has been
activated in me again because it is something that I
held kind of in a secret place and now it's
definitely not secret.

Speaker 1 (01:06:41):
Now it is no longer secret. I can promise you
that thank you for having the courage to let it out.
We really do appreciate it. Yeah, no, provin it's been
and wonderful. Will be in touch you guys right, Let's.

Speaker 3 (01:06:53):
See all.

Speaker 1 (01:06:59):
Sound, Light, and Frequency is an iHeart podcast produced by
Stellar Productions. It's executive produced by Nick Johnson and for
Stellar Jackie's Abel. Our show's music was written by Anna
Stuff and Hamilton Lighthouser. And your hosts and executive producers
are Bryce Abel, That's Me and Brent Friedman. Watch the
GUIs