December 9, 2025 • 43 mins
If we told you that World War III was in danger of happening over the trimming of a tree would you believe us? This was Operation Paul Bunyan.
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to stuff you should know, a production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh and there's
Chuck and it's just us and that's okay because we
can support one another and ourselves. We're grown men and
we feel good about things, especially us, well not especially,
but equally with us. And this is TI.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
I mean, you told me, you sent me a text
very early that said put on your big boy pants today.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Yeah, because Jerry's not showing up.
Speaker 3 (00:35):
Yeah, So I got them out my breeches.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Yeah. Are they green jeans?
Speaker 3 (00:41):
Oh? I've got on green cords?
Speaker 2 (00:44):
No, I do?
Speaker 4 (00:47):
We do?
Speaker 1 (00:49):
These are kind of my favorites. Actually, these forest green
chords great for this time of year.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
I don't remember those. I remember some like brownish topey,
kind of shiny tope ones. Am I making up?
Speaker 1 (01:01):
No? I have chords of many colors, much like Joseph.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Are they the thick whales or the thin whales?
Speaker 3 (01:09):
The thins?
Speaker 1 (01:09):
I don't get into the thick stuff anymore. That was nineties, Chuck.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Probably, Yeah, but I'll bet they're going to make a comeback.
Speaker 3 (01:15):
I bet you.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
Okay, I think we should start talking about this because
we probably have some non regular listeners who have military backgrounds,
who are like, what the hell is this? Who want
to hear about Operation Paul Bunyan, which is the point
of all this. And I'm guessing just from the title,
there's probably a lot of people in the military who
know what we're talking about. Already. It seems to be
(01:37):
a fairly widespread, widely known incident that took place in
nineteen seventy six. We're just going to call it an
incident at the DMV DMZ that was totally unintentional, an
incident at the DMZ. That's where we're going to start
out calling it. Well, eventually, maybe refine that over time,
(02:00):
but we should probably talk about what the DMZ is
in the first place. Right.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
Yeah, And by the way, I'm looking real quick, because
I could have sworn this probably came from someone, but
I usually make a note and I'm not seeing that.
But I am seeing that pop Tarts came from Nelson Reynolds.
So sorry for that, Nelson.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
Sorry Nelson, ah ha.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
But yeah, the DMZ, I guess we should set up
just sort of the deal between North Korea and South
Korea and the United States post World War Two was
the Soviets and the Americans got together and said, all right,
Korea and Korea obviously got involved and said, we're going
to be two nations. Let's confuse everybody and call the
(02:39):
communists North Korea inside the Democratic People's Republic of Korea
and called the democratic South Korean side just the Republic
of Korea. And if you've ever heard of the thirty
eighth parallel, that's the famous dividing line between these two.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
Yeah. And North Korea and South Korea got divided after
World War Two because there was a power vacuum and
the Communists were fighting in the North and they were
fighting that US friendly South Koreans, and the North Koreans
were like, this can't sting it. We want the whole peninsula,
and they invaded and the Korean War broke out, like
you said, and it lasted for three years. I always
(03:15):
thought it was Americans who were fighting in Korea, but
it turns out there were plenty of American troops, mostly
American troops, but they were part of a UN command
that was actually fighting the North along with the South Koreans. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
I think it's like ninety percent American forces. And you
said it lasted three years. I think the Korean War
is one of those that technically never ended true officially,
because I mean that's kind of one of those nitpicky
trivia questions. That's a good one that you know, there
was never an official treaty ending the war. They came
to a truce or an armistice because of a stalemate
(03:49):
basically after three years. But I think you know on
the books, the Korean War never technically ended.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
Yeah, that's that's my understanding too. Well. Good point. So
one of the big things about this armistice agreement was
that it was like, okay, you guys, we need some
separation here, and they literally separated North Korea from South Korea.
Like you said, the dividing line runs roughly along the
thirty eighth parallel, But on either side of that border
of North and South Korea there's a buffer zone, the
(04:17):
demilitarized Zone the DMZ I was referring to before. I
think it's two point four miles wide total one point
two miles on either side, and that is like effectively
the de facto border between North and South. No one's
supposed to come into that no man's zone, no man's land,
the DMZ. But inside the DMZ. There's a little tiny
(04:40):
village called the panmu JOm and I know of that
from Billy Joel.
Speaker 3 (04:45):
Yeah, I knew he was going to come up.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
That was it. And then some of the other Korean
town names that came up, like Kaesong and all this.
I'm like, how do I know these? How are they
so unfamiliar? And then I realized watching mash with my dad,
Oh yeah, And it's this little tiny militarized spot inside
the demilitarized zone, and it's it's where North Korea and
South Korea actually come together physically, can come together in
(05:11):
this what's called the JSA, the Joint Security Area.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
Yeah, so if they over the years have to meet
to negotiate anything, that's where they meet. That's where the
governments go. There's a very famous bridge there separating the two,
the Bridge of No Return. It's very dramatic if you
look at pictures of it. Yeah, it's literally like, you know,
on one side is one thing, on the other side
as the other. And that's where they do prisoner exchanges
and stuff like that. And these days, you know, it's well,
(05:40):
largely because of this incident, I think it's not the
same as it was back then.
Speaker 3 (05:44):
No, it's very separate.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
Back then, the Joint Security Area was you know, there
were it was jointly patrolled, like you know, North Koreans
and South Korean soldiers and American soldiers were patrolling the
area at the same time that face to face contact.
They would try to intimidate one another. They would you know,
curse at one another, maybe spit at one another. The
(06:08):
Americans would play hopscotch on the bridge. The North Koreans
would you know, drive a truck really fast toward them
and slam on the brakes. They would sneak up and
bang on their checkpoint barracks at night and stuff like that.
It was crazy to think that these kind of shenanigans
were going on without any further you know, sort of
(06:29):
war breaking out. They all kind of seemingly took it
in stride.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
Well that's what their orders were. The UN Command troops
and the Americans in particular, had specific orders to like,
if you had to defend yourself physically because you were
getting beat up, okay, but you did not shoot. You
had to be shot at to draw your side arm,
and that was the most powerful weapon that anyone patrolling
(06:53):
the Joint security area had They were often outfitted with
axe handles, maybe baton's, and that was about it. So
the Americans had strict orders not to take the bait,
and North Korean troops had essentially strict orders to provoke
the Americans into attacking so that they could start a
war again and it would be the American's fault exactly.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
And this came largely from the guy in charge. I mean,
you know, it came from on high, I'm sure, but
it was filtered down through Captain Arthur Bonifas. He was
a Vietnam vet. He was the JSA company commander. He
was thirty three years old. He was a big dude.
He was six' three, apparently super, popular like a father
(07:36):
figure as far as his command. Went and the camp
there at JSA's Name Camp boniface after, him so you
may see where this is. Headed but, he you, know
he believed in standing your ground but not taking the.
Bait like you, said like he wanted big guys down.
There he wanted to kind of, intimidate but the orders
(07:59):
were always to back off if it came to. Blows
and sometimes it would like you, know you could get
beat up or something and it would not escalate, further
which is just crazy to think.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
About it is it's hard to. Imagine you said that
bonifass was into intimidating without you, know doing, it like
just being physically. Intimidating, yeah if you were assigned to PATROL.
Jsa this is a really really high stakes area still is.
(08:28):
Today Bill clinton toured it in the nineties and went
as far as out under The bridge Of No, return
and he said later that That Pamu jam is the
scariest place on. Earth that's a president saying that he's
probably been to some scary places and at least knows about.
Them so that really says quite a. Bit so if
you're assigned to this, area it's a big. Deal and
(08:50):
so you had to be over six feet, tall but
you also had to be laid back by nature and
rather cool, headed like even when, provoked like they really
tested the people who were a signed.
Speaker 3 (09:02):
There, yeah they'd walk up and they'd slap you and
see what you.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
Did they would apparently while they were interviewing you that
you'd have no. Idea they'd just start shouting at you
out of the out of nowhere to see how you.
Responded were they Really, Yeah, Oh. Wow, yeah there's a
really that's a great chance to shout. Out there's an
atavist article Called axes Of evil written By Josh dean
and it's it's a really great detailed look at this
(09:27):
whole thing that we're talking about. Today that would be.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
Axe yes in this, case right, yep very clever, hmm a.
Speaker 3 (09:35):
Bit of a uh what do you call?
Speaker 1 (09:38):
It it's we're recording, early SO i can't think of
the word the. Foreshadowing, yeah maybe that's a play on
words a. Pun foreshadowing is probably Yet. OKAY i think
people are probably concerned BECAUSE i couldn't think of.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
FORESHADOWING i couldn't think of chemistry the other day and
intro of me crazy.
Speaker 4 (09:53):
Oh, Man, yeah aging is real, yeah and a, privilege
as they, Say uh so before this incident they were
about to talk about, there there was one example we
should mention When North korean troops were kind of must
in the hair of a soldier Named William henderson and he.
Speaker 3 (10:11):
Did not take it.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
WELL i guess he was into his hair or. Something
he got, mad took a swing and got A i
guess a throat chop or, something and got a busted.
Larynx and such That boniface wrote his wife and, said
our mission here is to take the verbal abuse to
kicking the, shoving but to not let it go any.
Further Major henderson lost his cool and blew. It it's
(10:33):
a natural, reaction but he should have known.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
Better, yeah and it was a big. Deal SO i
also saw That henderson was provoked by a journalist who
spat at. Him When henderson stood, up the journalists hit,
him and then Finally henderson hit him, back and all
of a sudden a bunch Of North korean troops jumped on.
Him but the fact that he took the bait was
a big deal because he was a. Major that means
you're a big deal at a camp, already like you're
(10:56):
fairly high. Up so him fighting back Was, yeah that
was a big. Deal.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
Uh maybe an early early ish break here seems like
a good dividing.
Speaker 3 (11:05):
LINE i think we.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
Should, well we'll take a break and we'll come back
and talk about the tree that started the whole, thing all, Right.
Speaker 3 (11:33):
All, Right josh didn't pick up on my bad pun
of the dividing. Line oh what was? It AND i,
said it's a dividing, line like you, know the thirty eighth.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
Parallel it just is so natural that it's. BAD i
totally missed. It it's also early for me.
Speaker 3 (11:47):
TOO i couldn't tell by the.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
Way that short stuff that you sent that we're going
to record later had a bunch of puns in, it
AND i didn't know if that was intentional or.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
NOT i can think of, one and it was. Intentional
there were a. Couple, okay you got to point them.
Speaker 1 (12:01):
Out, yeah, boy what a little tease of a whole different.
Episode you're such a. Tease so all, right now we
get to The Paul. Bunyan what instigated The Paul bunyan
incident or? Operation which was this tree that you Mentioned
that was a. Tree it was a poplar tree near
The bridge Of No. Return and the thing you need
(12:22):
to know about this, tree, well there's a few, things
but one is that it blocked the view of the
line of sight between these two un command. Checkpoints and
that was a big deal because you needed an open
line of site between these checkpoints because you, know there
were incidents of like kidnapping and stuff like that and other,
shenanigans and you just you had to have that line
(12:43):
of sight.
Speaker 3 (12:44):
OPEN. Yep so they said the unc was, like we
got to get rid of this.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
Tree so they sent a couple of Unarmed South korean
workers down there to just sort of figure out the
best way to remove. It and the first sort of
reaction was The North korean guards chased them. Away so
that was sort of the line in the sand was
get out of, here get away from that.
Speaker 4 (13:03):
Tree.
Speaker 2 (13:04):
Yeah apparently they tried again a couple days later and
got rained, out and then finally On august, eighteenth they were, like,
okay we're just gonna go ahead and do. This those
first guys got chased, off so we're gonna essentially assign
a few men to escort. THEM i think a fifteen
man team went over On august, eighteenth led By Captain,
(13:24):
bonifas and they started pruning the, tree just to. Prune
at this, point, yeah they're just pruning it. Back they
just want to make sure that even during summer they
can See checkpoint, three the loneliest outpost in the, world,
because like you, said it's very dangerous to man. That
so they're just pruning it, right and very, quickly The
(13:44):
North koreans came over The bridge Of No return because,
remember mind bogglingly The Joint Security area was, open like
the border didn't exist in The Joint security, area So
North koreans AND Un command could just go wherever they.
Want so The North koreans show up at this, site
at the poplar tree while it's being, pruned and they're
(14:05):
led By Lieutenant. Pacchoule he was known As Lieutenant bulldog
by THE Un command troops because he was very, confrontational
had provoked confrontation in the past plenty of, times and
so he showed. Up so you just immediately knew that
this could go south pretty. Quickly.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
Yeah and apparently he, said you, know they wanted to
keep that tree pristine Because Kim il sung personally planted
it and nourished it and it's growing under his. Supervision so,
apparently or at least they said it was a special
tree and to stand.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
Down, yes Because Kim il sung was the he was
the first deer. Leader Kim jong un is his. Grandson. Yeah,
yeah and so the idea that deer leader planted that.
TREE i don't know if that's. TRUE i never saw.
THAT i just saw it like stated here or. There
but at the very Least pacchool said, that, Right, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
I'm not sure IF i buy, that given what we
now have sort of suspected about this being a, provocation
which we'll get, to but that sounds to me, like,
hey let's tell him, that you know it's a special.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
Tree, Yeah like he's like puck chool seemed like the
kind who would just load you up on bs just
to mess with.
Speaker 4 (15:18):
You.
Speaker 1 (15:19):
Yeah, Yeah so he called for even more. REINFORCEMENTS i
think about thirty More North korean guards showed. Up he
Ordered Captain boniface to, stop but he turned his back on,
him WHICH i think, was you, know a pretty big
insult on top of everything. Else and as the story,
goes one of The american soldiers Saw poc take off
(15:41):
his wristwatch and put it in his, pocket which IS
i guess a cain to Like pansie taking off his
leather jacket like it's about to, happen and tried to Warn,
boniface but it was too late by that, point And
pack ordered the attack basically by, saying LIKE i think he,
said kill the, bastards.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
Right. YEAH i saw in nineteen seven twenty Seven Army
War college report on the, incident and that's what they,
said So i'm prone to believe them, yeah but he
said In korean, obviously. Right but right after that they
the men attacked and ACTUALLY i Saw Lieutenant pocchoul Assaulted Captain,
bonifas who had again his back To. Pocchool, yeah he
(16:19):
hit him with the karate chop in the back of
his neck and Dropped Captain boniface and very very, Sadly
Captain boniface never got to his feet. Again, Yeah, like
immediately he was set upon BY i saw five to
Six North korean troops just started being beaten by. Them
AND i guess the people who were cutting the tree
(16:39):
had a couple of, axes these, civilians and they dropped
their axes and, ran and The North korean troops picked
up the. Axes and here is where the reason that
this is called THE dmz ax incident. Begins that's.
Speaker 1 (16:53):
Right So boniface was bludgeoned to death by these guys attacking.
Him and you can watch this like it was on.
Film it's very. Chaotic you can't really GET i, mean
it's kind of from far, away so you can't get
a lot of, detail, right but you, know there are
still shots in film of this stuff going. On so
he was bludgeoned First Lieutenant Mark barrett was also beaten to.
Speaker 3 (17:15):
Death he was chased.
Speaker 1 (17:16):
Down over a retaining wall and you know sort of
THE i, mean it's sad enough as it, is But
bonifas was due to go home to his wife and
three kids in three, days so it was made, it you,
know sort of especially.
Speaker 2 (17:28):
Brutal, yeah and not like for a, visit like this
was his last three days In. Korea, yeah where he
was murdered by an axe By North korean. Troops it's
almost like a, Parody like it's almost too crazy to
believe that that's how close he was to leave In.
Korea he was also going to be promoted to major,
too like he was his life was like looking up
when he was.
Speaker 3 (17:48):
Murdered, yeah really.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
Sad so this was a really really big. Deal as
you can, imagine this is the first time that any
un command true hoops and Any americans had been killed
In korea since the end of The Korean. War it
was a huge provocation and there was a big question
(18:12):
now on the, table what is The United states military
going to? Do, yeah that two of its officers were
murdered by acts By North korean troops totally. Unprovoked this
was one hundred. Percent The North korean's doing this so
much their fault, that like you, said it almost seems
(18:32):
like it was possibly set. Up we'll talk about that
a little bit. Later and so there was a, big
a big question that needed to be answered and answered really,
fast and that was how are we going to respond to?
Speaker 1 (18:43):
This, Yeah so on THE us side at the, time
we Had Henry kissinger as The secretary Of state Under
President Gerald. Ford like we, mentioned it was seventy, six
so it was the election year Between ford And Jimmy,
carter And ford learned about the incident when and he
was at The Republican National, convention and obviously As secretary Of,
(19:04):
State kissinger was kind of in charge of figuring out
what to. Do calls together The Washington Special Action, group
which was a task force that was formed in sixty
nine out Of vietnam to deal with like sort of
any emergencies like this that came. Up and It's Henry.
Kissinger so he's, like would we should bomb the, Barracks
like he wants to flatten the barracks of the guards
(19:26):
that attack them and react really strongly and sinto you,
know a big message that this will not stand, YEAH.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
I, MEAN i can kind of understand that. Impulse he
was apparently the only one in The Special Action group
that wanted to respond with a violent, action and the
reason why was because this is such a flashpoint still,
today but at this, TIME i, mean it was like
we were still in the middle of The Cold. War
so to, us not only was This North, korea this
(19:56):
is Also china and THE ussr right behind. Them. Right oh,
Yeah so if you sent a missile into THE jsa
against The North, koreans there was a better than even
chance probably that you might spark a Nuclear World war. Three,
unluckily cooler heads. Prevailed But kissinger he was probably a little.
(20:18):
PARANOID i would. Guess he's very widely, reviled including by,
me So i'm pretty sure he was at least a little.
PARANOID i, mean he started out in The nixon, administration
for goodness, sake but he was Also his position was
also that this was a provocation by The north to
Test america's resolve because it was an election, year they
(20:40):
were trying to interfere with the. Election to make the
point Of Gerald ford's, Opponent Jimmy, carter who was, saying
we need to get troops out Of. Korea we don't
have any business being there. Anymore So kissinger thought this
Was North korea doing this to basically show that The
americans didn't belong here, anymore just to get out wasn't worth, it. Basically,
Yeah AND i get the.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
IDEA i, MEAN i was but five at the, time
not super into politics, yet BUT i get the idea
that Getting american troops out Of korea was probably a
pretty popular idea That carter was laying.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
Out, yeah and you Know.
Speaker 3 (21:14):
Vietnam, yeah, well And kissinger was still ticked off About.
Speaker 1 (21:17):
Vietnam so he was, like if we don't do, this
it's going to send a message that to Other asian
countries and THE ussr In china that we have no
resolve and that we're going to stand. Down and you,
know he wanted his Guy forward back in there, Obviously
so he was out, voted like you, said, thankfully but
he was, like all, right we still need to show a,
(21:38):
force like we need to do. Something and the one
thing that everybody in the room agreed, on even if
it WAS i, MEAN i know it was somewhat, strategical
but it was also. Symbolic they were like we're cutting
that gd tree. Down no matter what anyone else, Says
we're going to cut that thing. Down and they were
all like haharump for.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
Umph so, yeah they, Decided, okay we're not going to
actually destroy, anything we're not going to fire any, missiles
we're not going to kill, anybody but that doesn't mean
we're not going to show them that we could do
that if we wanted, to, Right and what they came
up with was known As Operation Paul, bunyan which is
one of the better names of any Operation i've ever. Heard, yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
Totally it was under command Of General Richard. Stillwell he
was the commander in chief of THE un command, there
and the, message like you, said was to sort of,
intimidate show that we could do something if we wanted.
To they had forty thousand troops over there that WERE i,
Mean dave says here it was raised To defcon, three
(22:41):
which is somewhat counterintuitive because it's raising a number even
though it's being, lowered, right.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
Yeah, yeah right in the middle between one and, five
and one's the. Highest it is very.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
Confusing, yeah so you're raising deaf, coon but the number goes.
Lower it took me a second to figure that. Out
BUT i have seen, wargame SO i know how it.
Works and a digit see The house Of. Dynamite have
you seen that, yet the New Catherine bigelow. Movie, no
IT'S i think it's. ON i think it's A netflix
movie about sort of a modern you, know what would
happen if nuclear arms were, Launched like what would we?
(23:14):
Do so it's a very tense thing and there's lots
of deaf con talk.
Speaker 3 (23:20):
AND i liked a lot of. It, YEAH i might
say THAT.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
I can get. THAT i think she's directly funded by THE.
Cia On Catherine, Bigelow, yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:29):
She definitely has her, niche you. Know, yeah for, SURE
i would recommend. IT i didn't care for the third.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
Act that, much But house Of. DYNAMITE i think that's
what it's. Called.
Speaker 1 (23:39):
Great, Nay, YEAH i mean you Get Idris elba as the,
president so that's always a good.
Speaker 3 (23:44):
Move, Oh i'll say.
Speaker 2 (23:45):
That, wait you're talking about. That he's in it With John.
Cena John cena is The American president And Idris elba's
The Prime minister and they actually end up being like action.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
Heroes, No Idris elba is The American, President John cena
is he's nowhere to be.
Speaker 2 (23:58):
Found i'm thinking of something you think it's.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
About, Anyway Operation Paul bunyan is set up. FOR i,
MEAN i Know i'm Saying, bungyan but that's just because
my weird. Accent It's. Bunyan august twenty, first this is
three days after The axe. Attack and what they were
going to do was mobilize sort of the largest mobilization
of our forces and defenses on The korean peninsula since
(24:21):
that fifty Three armistice with some pretty heavy artillery and
airships and sea.
Speaker 3 (24:28):
Ships.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
YEAH i, mean remember When Captain boniface went to escort
the tree trimmers there were fifteen. People now there's eight
hundred men involved in this tree trimming and it's not
even a tree trimming at this. Point right, now they're
aiming to cut the tree.
Speaker 3 (24:45):
Down, yeah they hate this tree at this. Point they
want that tree.
Speaker 2 (24:48):
Dead especially if they think that dear leader planted. It,
right this tree has now become super. Symbolic blood has
been shed to prune this. Tree and you said that
there was a ton of artillery armaments as part of
the show of, force and, boy you got it.
Speaker 1 (25:03):
Right, YEAH i, mean they had flying overhead and clear
view so everyone could, see you, know what was going.
On they had Twenty huey. Helicopters they had Twelve cobra,
GUNSHIPS b fifty two, bombers tank, BUSTER f Four phantom
fighter JETS f one to eleven strategic. BOMBS i mean
(25:23):
they're pulling out all the stops and off the. Coast
they had THE USSS uss DID I sa three s's
or TWO uss, midway four frigates and a cruiser and
aircraft taking off flying. OVERHEAD i mean it was a
real show of.
Speaker 3 (25:41):
Intimidation.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
Yeah THOSE b fifty twos that take the intimidation even
further were flying Inside North korean airspace not too far From.
Peonyang they were also strapped with. Nukes there were nuclear
missiles in this theater, now not just THE b fifty
twos carrying, them but THOSE f one to elevens were
also carrying nuclear warheads as. Missiles so the idea is,
(26:05):
here as part Of Operation Paul bunyan is to trim
the tree or cut the tree down now and also
Show North korea, like do you do not want to
mess with? Us DO i ever do anything like that?
Again and to be prepared that If North korea did do,
something if they were provoked by this tree cutting, down
that they would just be essentially wiped off the map
(26:27):
as a as a. Nation, yeah for.
Speaker 1 (26:29):
Sure and you know the whole AFTER i was studying all,
this right in the middle of, IT i got weirdly
very sad for this.
Speaker 3 (26:36):
Tree.
Speaker 2 (26:37):
YEAH i saw that tree in all of. It i've
seen other people refer to as the poor.
Speaker 1 (26:41):
TREE i, know because in the middle of all this,
STUFF i, mean these you, know bombers are flying, overhead
and these troops are massing these heavy artillery on each
side of the, bridge AND i just picture, that you.
Speaker 3 (26:52):
KNOW i Know i'm.
Speaker 1 (26:53):
ANTHROPOMORPHISING i always say that. Wrong say it for me.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
Anthropomorphizing you, said you just said so, lowly.
Speaker 3 (27:01):
That's, right this.
Speaker 1 (27:02):
Tree BUT i just pictured this poor tree sitting, there like,
MAN i JUST i just want to be a.
Speaker 2 (27:07):
TREE i WISH i were a.
Speaker 3 (27:09):
SHRUB i want to Start World war three or be cut.
Speaker 2 (27:12):
DOWN i know that tree did not get their.
Speaker 3 (27:15):
Wish oh grow, SLOWER i promise.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
Right, HERE i can just shed a few.
Speaker 1 (27:20):
Limbs So Major General john Singlab dave helped us with.
This found a quote that just showed how serious this,
was and he said it was my estimate shared by
many of the, staff that the operation stood a fifty
to fifty chance of starting a, war and that would
have Been World war, three.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
Absolutely a nuclear. War this tree cutting operation could have
Sparked World war, three no. Joke, again that is how
tense things are at THE dmz even still to this.
Speaker 3 (27:48):
Day all, right should we take a.
Speaker 2 (27:50):
Break, yeah let's take a, break and then we're going
to talk About Operation Paul bunyan. Commencing, So, chuck this
(28:18):
is not a reckless. Thing as a matter of, fact
this was really. Calculated you Mentioned General, stilwell who was
in charge of Every american troop In. Korea he personally
came up with this plan and he was not a,
warhawk but he also it was a really good, plan
especially if all of the troops like followed orders and
nobody tried anything provocative and nobody took any bait from
(28:40):
The North. Koreans it was a very good. Plan but
The United states was not reckless in. This in carrying
out this, plan they actually got in touch With china
and THE ussr and basically basically, said, hey you, know
we're thinking about doing something like, this And china and
the USS a both signaled that they were not going
to do anything If North korea started, fighting That North
(29:03):
korea was on their. OWN i think they've blinked twice
and pulled their left ear lobe and then touched the
bill of their, cap and The United states is, like,
oh we. Gotcha so now it was a little less,
tense even though it could still start a war With North.
Korea at least we had this idea That china and
THE ussr wouldn't immediately. Intervene.
Speaker 1 (29:23):
YEAH i immediately thought Of Doctor, strangelove AND i could.
Speaker 3 (29:28):
Just Hear Peter sellers on the phone, going.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
Well, dmitri you see there's this tree that's, Perfect it's so.
GREAT i think we didn't mention too that the actual
tree cutting was going to be done by unarmed military.
Speaker 3 (29:43):
Engineers that they sent.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
Forward.
Speaker 1 (29:45):
YEAH i, mean the fact that they weren't armed is
kind of neither here nor, there because there were so many.
ARMS i think the people actually on the bridge supposedly
just had like, these you, know clubs and axe handles
and side, arms but both sides of the bridge were
stocked with heavy artillery from both. Sides AND i also
saw that The Korean South korean faction that was assisting,
(30:08):
us they rolled in and blocked the, bridge AND i
don't think they were supposed to have anything more than just,
pistols but they unloaded a bunch of sand bags and
had a bunch OF m sixteens hidden that they took.
Speaker 2 (30:20):
Out, yeah they also showed that they had claymore mines
land mines strapped to their chests and they had the
detonators in their other hand and were daring The North
koreans to come get them because they would blow themselves
up in The North. Koreans and this had not been
passed by THE Un Command force or anything like. That
no one had any idea that The South korean commandos
(30:42):
were going to do something like, that because, again we're
trying to not let this, be you, know any more
tense than it already. Is and all of a sudden
there's essentially suicide bombers on the, scenes like mocking The North.
Koreans so that definitely altered things a little. Bit playmore With.
Claymore oh, YEAH i forgot. THAT i knew that from
being a. Kid where where'd you hear? That is that
(31:03):
just from the military and it trickled.
Speaker 3 (31:05):
Out, NO i thought it Was The, simpsons wasn't.
Speaker 2 (31:07):
It. NO i think it was like a maybe in
a rambow or something. Like there's no WAY i would
have known that as a.
Speaker 1 (31:14):
Kid, Otherwise, OKAY i can't remember WHERE i heard it,
first but at any, rate it's a very tense.
Speaker 3 (31:20):
SCENE i think we've setting that.
Speaker 1 (31:22):
Up and, again you, know we had orders not to,
provoke like our mission is to cut that tree, down
but all hell's going to break loose if anything. Happens
and like you, Mentioned North korea had some pretty decent
incentive to kind of start some. Fighting they didn't Want
World war, three but they wanted, to you, know they
Wanted South korea still at this.
Speaker 3 (31:44):
Point.
Speaker 2 (31:44):
Yeah plus Also Kim il, sung The Dear, leader the
First Dear, leader he was A communist guerrilla fighting The
japanese In World War. Two he was battle hardened and. Tested,
yeah so he was totally into. Fighting he wasn't like
a dove or a diplomat at. All.
Speaker 1 (32:03):
Yeah AND i think we didn't mention too that the
previous tree, trimming supposedly we had told them that this
was going to, happen and so the whole provocation to begin,
with if they knew about it ahead of, time then
they came down there with that, knowledge because they didn't
raise any. Objections apparently that we were, like, hey were
going to trim this tree so we can have a
better line of sight and you'll have a better line of,
(32:24):
sight and no one said, anything you, know to the.
Contrary so the whole thing was really provocation by The North.
Speaker 3 (32:31):
Koreans.
Speaker 2 (32:32):
Yeah, absolutely that was the first time When Captain bonifass
And Lieutenant barrett got, murdered.
Speaker 1 (32:37):
Right, yeah, exactly which again made it sort of seem
like it was planned to begin.
Speaker 2 (32:41):
With, yeah for. Sure so at oh seven hundred, hours
that's seven am On august twenty, first nineteen seventy, Six
Operation Paul bunyan, commences and like you, SAID i mean
basically what we described there was there was an order
not to. ENGAGE i mean, essentially if The North koreans
started unloading with sniper fire or machine, guns then, yes
(33:06):
we're going to. Engage and it was a very tense,
operation but they got in. There the military engineers cut
the tree essentially down to a ten foot. Stump they
were USING i Read vietnam era issue chainsaws that weren't
in very good, shape so it took him a little.
While but it took him about forty five minutes to
(33:28):
complete the whole. Thing and they should have sent out Leather.
Face he should.
Speaker 3 (33:33):
Have he could have gotten that done in ten.
Speaker 2 (33:35):
Minutes, Yeah but they left this big stump with a
two like it was branching at the, top and one
of the soldiers who was at the scene said that
it had looked like somebody raising their arms in, surrender
like The North koreans were. Surrendering, YEAH i saw.
Speaker 1 (33:52):
That kissinger tried to get a carving artist in there
to shape it in the form of the middle.
Speaker 3 (33:56):
Finger.
Speaker 2 (33:57):
Right those guys are, great the chainsaw. Artists, Man, yeah
it's pretty. AMAZING i don't know if the intent was
ever to cut down the entire. TREE i don't think
that that was the, plan even in the second, time
even In Operation Paul. Bunyan but they left this. Stump
everybody on THE us side just went back. Out they just.
(34:19):
Withdrew the operation was, successful but things were still quite.
Tense it's not it wasn't clear Whether North korea was
going to respond, still just because the operation was done
and now there weren't a bunch of Troops america or
THE Un. Command they just kept patrolling The Joint Security
area like it was any other day because that's what
(34:40):
it was supposed to. Be even though this operation had,
commenced it was now, over so things were supposed to
go back to, normal but we still had no idea
What North korea was going to.
Speaker 1 (34:48):
Do, so you, know pretext to this was they were
very unapologetic about the whole incident leading up to, that
like After Captain boniface And Lieutenant barrett were, killed but
After Paul bunyan they thankfully backed off that there wasn't
like an expressed, apology But President Kim il sung did
(35:12):
express regret for those, deaths so they clearly were sort
of backing down at this, point you, know much to everyone's.
Relief and it was this incident that basically everyone was, like,
hey you know, what.
Speaker 3 (35:23):
Maybe this maybe we didn't think this through.
Speaker 1 (35:26):
How this thing operates with these guys all being here
in the same place at all, times and so it's
set up much differently. Now so the actual line that
runs the link of THE dmc is the actual dividing
line even through THE gs THE.
Speaker 2 (35:39):
Jsa, yeah that dividing, line the military demarcation, line that
is the actual border as far AS i, understand Between
North korea And South korea with THE dmz buffers on
either side of, It and they just ignored it in THE,
jsa but then they started enforcing. It so now The
North korean troops and THE u And command troops do not,
intermingle even though their posts are feet away from one. Another,
(36:04):
yeah it would be a really big deal for one
to attack the other because you would be crossing the.
Border now there's no free fight. Invasion it would be
an enormous. Deal it'd be an international. Incident and in,
fact there was something like that in nineteen eighty. Four
there was A soviet exchange student who was on a
(36:24):
tour with The North koreans who ran across the border
to defect into The west and a firefight started that
resulted in the deaths of Three North koreans and ONE
u In Command South korean, Soldier and it was a, huge,
again an international incident because some of The North korean
troops had run across the demarcation line to chase after the. Defector,
(36:49):
yeah for.
Speaker 1 (36:49):
Sure so everyone is like pretty happy and considered it
a success except For. Kissinger of, course The North koreans
back down really, quickly so it really didn't give him
any chance during this election year to kind of tout
some big victory Of. AMERICA i, mean it was a,
victory BUT i don't think it was like some huge
(37:10):
international news thing he. Wanted he still wanted them to
have blown up the barracks or to taken out like
a warship or two as like a big show of.
Force so everyone was pretty stoked except For Old.
Speaker 2 (37:22):
Henry so they left that poplar tree there as a,
reminder a monument of. Sorts, actually until the tenth anniversary
of the axe murder incident On august, eighteenth nineteen eighty,
six they pulled the tree, out stump and, all roots and,
all and replaced it with a Memorial and there's a
(37:44):
plaque on it that reads on this spot was located
the yellow poplar tree which was the focal point of
the axe murders of Two United nations command, officers Kept
Arthur bonifas And First Lieutenant Mark, barrett who were attacked
and killed By North korean guards while supervising a work
party trimming the tree on Eighteen august nineteen seventy, six
and it's just so plainly put without any flowery language
(38:08):
that it also just kind of gets across the horrible
absurdity of the whole. Thing, yeah for.
Speaker 1 (38:15):
Sure and just a few years, ago in twenty twenty,
two that was a sort of a.
Speaker 3 (38:21):
Joint show of.
Speaker 1 (38:23):
Not, friendship but like maybe we should kind of literally
put this to rest by planting a. TREE i think
the presidents of the two countries got together in THE
jsa to plant a pine tree of, peace and they took,
turned shoveling soil from each, side watered it with rivers
from each, side and the pine tree Of peace became you,
know and right now is sort of a big symbol
(38:46):
of kind of what happened there and maybe let's try
and just chill things out a little.
Speaker 2 (38:50):
Bit. Yeah what made it even more significant was that
The South korean president Moonjay in was actually one of
The South korean commandos who took part in. Operation, yeah it's.
Crazy and then there's one other little note THAT i
found pretty. Interesting there's a one whole par three well.
(39:10):
GOLF i don't think you could call it a, course
but it's it's like an astro turf part, well a
par three that's surrounded by land mines now where the
poplar tree used to, be and it's called the most
dangerous hole in golf From Sports.
Speaker 1 (39:25):
Illustrated, yeah and we never really, said you, know we
kind of hinted around that this might have been all
planned to begin.
Speaker 3 (39:31):
With and there is circumstantial evidence.
Speaker 1 (39:34):
That suggests that that whole attack was pre planned to begin, with,
right you, know BECAUSE i mentioned that we had gotten
in touch with him and, said, hey we're going to
prune this, tree and no one really said, like, no
don't do, that and so that attack seemingly came out of.
Nowhere but one big clue, WAS i think three minutes
after this incident, Occurred Radio, pyonyang which is The North
(39:57):
korean state, radio they broadcast a very biased report on,
this like right after it. Happened so it seems pretty
clear that it was pre, planned but analysis later on
seems to indicate that The soviets did not know about
it and they were kind of acting on their. Own.
Speaker 2 (40:13):
NO i saw one other piece of circumstantial evidence too
that kind of is pretty, definitive is that within five
hours there was a non aligned, nation which where the
nations during The Cold war who didn't choose. Sides all
of them were meeting In, korea and within five, Hours
korean delegates were at that meeting handing out memos describing
(40:34):
this the axe murders and totally blaming it on The,
americans like had completely flipped it around in an effort
to kind of drum up support to get The americans.
Out so that's it does seem pretty likely that The
North koreans planned the axe. Murders, YEAH i, agreed you
got anything?
Speaker 3 (40:55):
Else got nothing?
Speaker 2 (40:57):
Else this is a good, one. Man hats off to
the the person or people who suggested, it and maybe
listen out for a future random episode where we thank
you for.
Speaker 3 (41:06):
IT i couldn't find. IT i might have found this
on my.
Speaker 2 (41:09):
Own i'll help. You, look you know.
Speaker 1 (41:10):
WHAT i. THINK i was looking for live show topics
and came across.
Speaker 2 (41:14):
This oh, Cool, yeah this would have been a good.
One but there's there's a lot of downers. Too, yeah
not a lot of, jokey ridiculous. Stuff, yeah do you
have anything? ELSE i do? Not, Okay well that means
it's time for. Listener.
Speaker 1 (41:29):
Man i'm gonna call this the pain of, preemption because
that's What michael called. It, hey, guys Love Saturday Morning cartoon.
EPISODE i was born in eighty four and watched them
well into high. School your episode covered a, lot but
you left out one, thing the pain of. Preemption local
channels carried the big networks would often cut off the
cartoons to show.
Speaker 3 (41:49):
Golf baseball or other.
Speaker 1 (41:50):
Sports and as a, KID i, KNOW i never knew
when this is gonna. Happen just, suddenly the joy of
cartoon was abruptly halted show a golf match that no
kid would care. ABOUT i never got to see The
christmas Special, christopher The Christmas, tree or the last episode
Of Ultimate. Muscle you haven't heard of any either one of.
Speaker 2 (42:08):
THOSE i haven't, Either BUT i still feel for, him he.
Speaker 1 (42:13):
SAID i don't want to bring down the, room but
it's important to remember that those wonderful mornings could be
broken at any. Time thanks for making such a great.
Show that is From michael j. Crandall AND i forgot
to Mention. Michael his initial salutation was Dear mike And.
Speaker 2 (42:27):
Josh, wow he's got himself on the. BRAIN i. Know,
well that was a great, Email, michael and thank you
To mike for reading.
Speaker 3 (42:36):
It, Okay i'll Be.
Speaker 2 (42:37):
Mike, no you're Not, mike Your. Chuck everybody knows.
Speaker 1 (42:40):
That that's my brother's middle name, too, though so that
was a plat Yeah, Scott.
Speaker 3 (42:44):
Mike oh, no, no, no that's his first.
Speaker 1 (42:46):
NAME i forget my brother and my sister their middle
name is their, name which is.
Speaker 3 (42:51):
Interesting i'm not sure why that.
Speaker 2 (42:52):
Happened this has gotten so confusing to.
Speaker 3 (42:55):
Me He's Michael, scott is he?
Speaker 2 (42:57):
Really? Yeah that's. Awesome why are you calling him that
all the?
Speaker 3 (43:01):
TIME i don't, KNOW i probably.
Speaker 1 (43:03):
SHOULD i, mean that's the office, guy, right, yeah, yeah,
YEAH i never have thought about that until right.
Speaker 2 (43:09):
Now well that's What i'm going to call him from now.
On all, Right, okay if you want to be Like
michael crandall Not Michael scott and send us an, email
we would love. That please. Do you can send it
off to stuff podcast at iHeartRadio dot.
Speaker 1 (43:22):
Com stuff You Should know is a production Of. iHeartRadio
for more podcasts my Heart, radio visit The iHeartRadio, App Apple,
podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite, shows
Welcome to stuff you should know, a production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh and there's
Chuck and it's just us and that's okay because we
can support one another and ourselves. We're grown men and
we feel good about things, especially us, well not especially,
but equally with us. And this is TI.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
I mean, you told me, you sent me a text
very early that said put on your big boy pants today.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Yeah, because Jerry's not showing up.
Speaker 3 (00:35):
Yeah, So I got them out my breeches.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Yeah. Are they green jeans?
Speaker 3 (00:41):
Oh? I've got on green cords?
Speaker 2 (00:44):
No, I do?
Speaker 4 (00:47):
We do?
Speaker 1 (00:49):
These are kind of my favorites. Actually, these forest green
chords great for this time of year.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
I don't remember those. I remember some like brownish topey,
kind of shiny tope ones. Am I making up?
Speaker 1 (01:01):
No? I have chords of many colors, much like Joseph.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Are they the thick whales or the thin whales?
Speaker 3 (01:09):
The thins?
Speaker 1 (01:09):
I don't get into the thick stuff anymore. That was nineties, Chuck.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Probably, Yeah, but I'll bet they're going to make a comeback.
Speaker 3 (01:15):
I bet you.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
Okay, I think we should start talking about this because
we probably have some non regular listeners who have military backgrounds,
who are like, what the hell is this? Who want
to hear about Operation Paul Bunyan, which is the point
of all this. And I'm guessing just from the title,
there's probably a lot of people in the military who
know what we're talking about. Already. It seems to be
(01:37):
a fairly widespread, widely known incident that took place in
nineteen seventy six. We're just going to call it an
incident at the DMV DMZ that was totally unintentional, an
incident at the DMZ. That's where we're going to start
out calling it. Well, eventually, maybe refine that over time,
(02:00):
but we should probably talk about what the DMZ is
in the first place. Right.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
Yeah, And by the way, I'm looking real quick, because
I could have sworn this probably came from someone, but
I usually make a note and I'm not seeing that.
But I am seeing that pop Tarts came from Nelson Reynolds.
So sorry for that, Nelson.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
Sorry Nelson, ah ha.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
But yeah, the DMZ, I guess we should set up
just sort of the deal between North Korea and South
Korea and the United States post World War Two was
the Soviets and the Americans got together and said, all right,
Korea and Korea obviously got involved and said, we're going
to be two nations. Let's confuse everybody and call the
(02:39):
communists North Korea inside the Democratic People's Republic of Korea
and called the democratic South Korean side just the Republic
of Korea. And if you've ever heard of the thirty
eighth parallel, that's the famous dividing line between these two.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
Yeah. And North Korea and South Korea got divided after
World War Two because there was a power vacuum and
the Communists were fighting in the North and they were
fighting that US friendly South Koreans, and the North Koreans
were like, this can't sting it. We want the whole peninsula,
and they invaded and the Korean War broke out, like
you said, and it lasted for three years. I always
(03:15):
thought it was Americans who were fighting in Korea, but
it turns out there were plenty of American troops, mostly
American troops, but they were part of a UN command
that was actually fighting the North along with the South Koreans. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
I think it's like ninety percent American forces. And you
said it lasted three years. I think the Korean War
is one of those that technically never ended true officially,
because I mean that's kind of one of those nitpicky
trivia questions. That's a good one that you know, there
was never an official treaty ending the war. They came
to a truce or an armistice because of a stalemate
(03:49):
basically after three years. But I think you know on
the books, the Korean War never technically ended.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
Yeah, that's that's my understanding too. Well. Good point. So
one of the big things about this armistice agreement was
that it was like, okay, you guys, we need some
separation here, and they literally separated North Korea from South Korea.
Like you said, the dividing line runs roughly along the
thirty eighth parallel, But on either side of that border
of North and South Korea there's a buffer zone, the
(04:17):
demilitarized Zone the DMZ I was referring to before. I
think it's two point four miles wide total one point
two miles on either side, and that is like effectively
the de facto border between North and South. No one's
supposed to come into that no man's zone, no man's land,
the DMZ. But inside the DMZ. There's a little tiny
(04:40):
village called the panmu JOm and I know of that
from Billy Joel.
Speaker 3 (04:45):
Yeah, I knew he was going to come up.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
That was it. And then some of the other Korean
town names that came up, like Kaesong and all this.
I'm like, how do I know these? How are they
so unfamiliar? And then I realized watching mash with my dad,
Oh yeah, And it's this little tiny militarized spot inside
the demilitarized zone, and it's it's where North Korea and
South Korea actually come together physically, can come together in
(05:11):
this what's called the JSA, the Joint Security Area.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
Yeah, so if they over the years have to meet
to negotiate anything, that's where they meet. That's where the
governments go. There's a very famous bridge there separating the two,
the Bridge of No Return. It's very dramatic if you
look at pictures of it. Yeah, it's literally like, you know,
on one side is one thing, on the other side
as the other. And that's where they do prisoner exchanges
and stuff like that. And these days, you know, it's well,
(05:40):
largely because of this incident, I think it's not the
same as it was back then.
Speaker 3 (05:44):
No, it's very separate.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
Back then, the Joint Security Area was you know, there
were it was jointly patrolled, like you know, North Koreans
and South Korean soldiers and American soldiers were patrolling the
area at the same time that face to face contact.
They would try to intimidate one another. They would you know,
curse at one another, maybe spit at one another. The
(06:08):
Americans would play hopscotch on the bridge. The North Koreans
would you know, drive a truck really fast toward them
and slam on the brakes. They would sneak up and
bang on their checkpoint barracks at night and stuff like that.
It was crazy to think that these kind of shenanigans
were going on without any further you know, sort of
(06:29):
war breaking out. They all kind of seemingly took it
in stride.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
Well that's what their orders were. The UN Command troops
and the Americans in particular, had specific orders to like,
if you had to defend yourself physically because you were
getting beat up, okay, but you did not shoot. You
had to be shot at to draw your side arm,
and that was the most powerful weapon that anyone patrolling
(06:53):
the Joint security area had They were often outfitted with
axe handles, maybe baton's, and that was about it. So
the Americans had strict orders not to take the bait,
and North Korean troops had essentially strict orders to provoke
the Americans into attacking so that they could start a
war again and it would be the American's fault exactly.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
And this came largely from the guy in charge. I mean,
you know, it came from on high, I'm sure, but
it was filtered down through Captain Arthur Bonifas. He was
a Vietnam vet. He was the JSA company commander. He
was thirty three years old. He was a big dude.
He was six' three, apparently super, popular like a father
(07:36):
figure as far as his command. Went and the camp
there at JSA's Name Camp boniface after, him so you
may see where this is. Headed but, he you, know
he believed in standing your ground but not taking the.
Bait like you, said like he wanted big guys down.
There he wanted to kind of, intimidate but the orders
(07:59):
were always to back off if it came to. Blows
and sometimes it would like you, know you could get
beat up or something and it would not escalate, further
which is just crazy to think.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
About it is it's hard to. Imagine you said that
bonifass was into intimidating without you, know doing, it like
just being physically. Intimidating, yeah if you were assigned to PATROL.
Jsa this is a really really high stakes area still is.
(08:28):
Today Bill clinton toured it in the nineties and went
as far as out under The bridge Of No, return
and he said later that That Pamu jam is the
scariest place on. Earth that's a president saying that he's
probably been to some scary places and at least knows about.
Them so that really says quite a. Bit so if
you're assigned to this, area it's a big. Deal and
(08:50):
so you had to be over six feet, tall but
you also had to be laid back by nature and
rather cool, headed like even when, provoked like they really
tested the people who were a signed.
Speaker 3 (09:02):
There, yeah they'd walk up and they'd slap you and
see what you.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
Did they would apparently while they were interviewing you that
you'd have no. Idea they'd just start shouting at you
out of the out of nowhere to see how you.
Responded were they Really, Yeah, Oh. Wow, yeah there's a
really that's a great chance to shout. Out there's an
atavist article Called axes Of evil written By Josh dean
and it's it's a really great detailed look at this
(09:27):
whole thing that we're talking about. Today that would be.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
Axe yes in this, case right, yep very clever, hmm a.
Speaker 3 (09:35):
Bit of a uh what do you call?
Speaker 1 (09:38):
It it's we're recording, early SO i can't think of
the word the. Foreshadowing, yeah maybe that's a play on
words a. Pun foreshadowing is probably Yet. OKAY i think
people are probably concerned BECAUSE i couldn't think of.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
FORESHADOWING i couldn't think of chemistry the other day and
intro of me crazy.
Speaker 4 (09:53):
Oh, Man, yeah aging is real, yeah and a, privilege
as they, Say uh so before this incident they were
about to talk about, there there was one example we
should mention When North korean troops were kind of must
in the hair of a soldier Named William henderson and he.
Speaker 3 (10:11):
Did not take it.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
WELL i guess he was into his hair or. Something
he got, mad took a swing and got A i
guess a throat chop or, something and got a busted.
Larynx and such That boniface wrote his wife and, said
our mission here is to take the verbal abuse to
kicking the, shoving but to not let it go any.
Further Major henderson lost his cool and blew. It it's
(10:33):
a natural, reaction but he should have known.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
Better, yeah and it was a big. Deal SO i
also saw That henderson was provoked by a journalist who
spat at. Him When henderson stood, up the journalists hit,
him and then Finally henderson hit him, back and all
of a sudden a bunch Of North korean troops jumped on.
Him but the fact that he took the bait was
a big deal because he was a. Major that means
you're a big deal at a camp, already like you're
(10:56):
fairly high. Up so him fighting back Was, yeah that
was a big. Deal.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
Uh maybe an early early ish break here seems like
a good dividing.
Speaker 3 (11:05):
LINE i think we.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
Should, well we'll take a break and we'll come back
and talk about the tree that started the whole, thing all, Right.
Speaker 3 (11:33):
All, Right josh didn't pick up on my bad pun
of the dividing. Line oh what was? It AND i,
said it's a dividing, line like you, know the thirty eighth.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
Parallel it just is so natural that it's. BAD i
totally missed. It it's also early for me.
Speaker 3 (11:47):
TOO i couldn't tell by the.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
Way that short stuff that you sent that we're going
to record later had a bunch of puns in, it
AND i didn't know if that was intentional or.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
NOT i can think of, one and it was. Intentional
there were a. Couple, okay you got to point them.
Speaker 1 (12:01):
Out, yeah, boy what a little tease of a whole different.
Episode you're such a. Tease so all, right now we
get to The Paul. Bunyan what instigated The Paul bunyan
incident or? Operation which was this tree that you Mentioned
that was a. Tree it was a poplar tree near
The bridge Of No. Return and the thing you need
(12:22):
to know about this, tree, well there's a few, things
but one is that it blocked the view of the
line of sight between these two un command. Checkpoints and
that was a big deal because you needed an open
line of site between these checkpoints because you, know there
were incidents of like kidnapping and stuff like that and other,
shenanigans and you just you had to have that line
(12:43):
of sight.
Speaker 3 (12:44):
OPEN. Yep so they said the unc was, like we
got to get rid of this.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
Tree so they sent a couple of Unarmed South korean
workers down there to just sort of figure out the
best way to remove. It and the first sort of
reaction was The North korean guards chased them. Away so
that was sort of the line in the sand was
get out of, here get away from that.
Speaker 4 (13:03):
Tree.
Speaker 2 (13:04):
Yeah apparently they tried again a couple days later and
got rained, out and then finally On august, eighteenth they were, like,
okay we're just gonna go ahead and do. This those
first guys got chased, off so we're gonna essentially assign
a few men to escort. THEM i think a fifteen
man team went over On august, eighteenth led By Captain,
(13:24):
bonifas and they started pruning the, tree just to. Prune
at this, point, yeah they're just pruning it. Back they
just want to make sure that even during summer they
can See checkpoint, three the loneliest outpost in the, world,
because like you, said it's very dangerous to man. That
so they're just pruning it, right and very, quickly The
(13:44):
North koreans came over The bridge Of No return because,
remember mind bogglingly The Joint Security area was, open like
the border didn't exist in The Joint security, area So
North koreans AND Un command could just go wherever they.
Want so The North koreans show up at this, site
at the poplar tree while it's being, pruned and they're
(14:05):
led By Lieutenant. Pacchoule he was known As Lieutenant bulldog
by THE Un command troops because he was very, confrontational
had provoked confrontation in the past plenty of, times and
so he showed. Up so you just immediately knew that
this could go south pretty. Quickly.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
Yeah and apparently he, said you, know they wanted to
keep that tree pristine Because Kim il sung personally planted
it and nourished it and it's growing under his. Supervision so,
apparently or at least they said it was a special
tree and to stand.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
Down, yes Because Kim il sung was the he was
the first deer. Leader Kim jong un is his. Grandson. Yeah,
yeah and so the idea that deer leader planted that.
TREE i don't know if that's. TRUE i never saw.
THAT i just saw it like stated here or. There
but at the very Least pacchool said, that, Right, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
I'm not sure IF i buy, that given what we
now have sort of suspected about this being a, provocation
which we'll get, to but that sounds to me, like,
hey let's tell him, that you know it's a special.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
Tree, Yeah like he's like puck chool seemed like the
kind who would just load you up on bs just
to mess with.
Speaker 4 (15:18):
You.
Speaker 1 (15:19):
Yeah, Yeah so he called for even more. REINFORCEMENTS i
think about thirty More North korean guards showed. Up he
Ordered Captain boniface to, stop but he turned his back on,
him WHICH i think, was you, know a pretty big
insult on top of everything. Else and as the story,
goes one of The american soldiers Saw poc take off
(15:41):
his wristwatch and put it in his, pocket which IS
i guess a cain to Like pansie taking off his
leather jacket like it's about to, happen and tried to Warn,
boniface but it was too late by that, point And
pack ordered the attack basically by, saying LIKE i think he,
said kill the, bastards.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
Right. YEAH i saw in nineteen seven twenty Seven Army
War college report on the, incident and that's what they,
said So i'm prone to believe them, yeah but he
said In korean, obviously. Right but right after that they
the men attacked and ACTUALLY i Saw Lieutenant pocchoul Assaulted Captain,
bonifas who had again his back To. Pocchool, yeah he
(16:19):
hit him with the karate chop in the back of
his neck and Dropped Captain boniface and very very, Sadly
Captain boniface never got to his feet. Again, Yeah, like
immediately he was set upon BY i saw five to
Six North korean troops just started being beaten by. Them
AND i guess the people who were cutting the tree
(16:39):
had a couple of, axes these, civilians and they dropped
their axes and, ran and The North korean troops picked
up the. Axes and here is where the reason that
this is called THE dmz ax incident. Begins that's.
Speaker 1 (16:53):
Right So boniface was bludgeoned to death by these guys attacking.
Him and you can watch this like it was on.
Film it's very. Chaotic you can't really GET i, mean
it's kind of from far, away so you can't get
a lot of, detail, right but you, know there are
still shots in film of this stuff going. On so
he was bludgeoned First Lieutenant Mark barrett was also beaten to.
Speaker 3 (17:15):
Death he was chased.
Speaker 1 (17:16):
Down over a retaining wall and you know sort of
THE i, mean it's sad enough as it, is But
bonifas was due to go home to his wife and
three kids in three, days so it was made, it you,
know sort of especially.
Speaker 2 (17:28):
Brutal, yeah and not like for a, visit like this
was his last three days In. Korea, yeah where he
was murdered by an axe By North korean. Troops it's
almost like a, Parody like it's almost too crazy to
believe that that's how close he was to leave In.
Korea he was also going to be promoted to major,
too like he was his life was like looking up
when he was.
Speaker 3 (17:48):
Murdered, yeah really.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
Sad so this was a really really big. Deal as
you can, imagine this is the first time that any
un command true hoops and Any americans had been killed
In korea since the end of The Korean. War it
was a huge provocation and there was a big question
(18:12):
now on the, table what is The United states military
going to? Do, yeah that two of its officers were
murdered by acts By North korean troops totally. Unprovoked this
was one hundred. Percent The North korean's doing this so
much their fault, that like you, said it almost seems
(18:32):
like it was possibly set. Up we'll talk about that
a little bit. Later and so there was a, big
a big question that needed to be answered and answered really,
fast and that was how are we going to respond to?
Speaker 1 (18:43):
This, Yeah so on THE us side at the, time
we Had Henry kissinger as The secretary Of state Under
President Gerald. Ford like we, mentioned it was seventy, six
so it was the election year Between ford And Jimmy,
carter And ford learned about the incident when and he
was at The Republican National, convention and obviously As secretary Of,
(19:04):
State kissinger was kind of in charge of figuring out
what to. Do calls together The Washington Special Action, group
which was a task force that was formed in sixty
nine out Of vietnam to deal with like sort of
any emergencies like this that came. Up and It's Henry.
Kissinger so he's, like would we should bomb the, Barracks
like he wants to flatten the barracks of the guards
(19:26):
that attack them and react really strongly and sinto you,
know a big message that this will not stand, YEAH.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
I, MEAN i can kind of understand that. Impulse he
was apparently the only one in The Special Action group
that wanted to respond with a violent, action and the
reason why was because this is such a flashpoint still,
today but at this, TIME i, mean it was like
we were still in the middle of The Cold. War
so to, us not only was This North, korea this
(19:56):
is Also china and THE ussr right behind. Them. Right oh,
Yeah so if you sent a missile into THE jsa
against The North, koreans there was a better than even
chance probably that you might spark a Nuclear World war. Three,
unluckily cooler heads. Prevailed But kissinger he was probably a little.
(20:18):
PARANOID i would. Guess he's very widely, reviled including by,
me So i'm pretty sure he was at least a little.
PARANOID i, mean he started out in The nixon, administration
for goodness, sake but he was Also his position was
also that this was a provocation by The north to
Test america's resolve because it was an election, year they
(20:40):
were trying to interfere with the. Election to make the
point Of Gerald ford's, Opponent Jimmy, carter who was, saying
we need to get troops out Of. Korea we don't
have any business being there. Anymore So kissinger thought this
Was North korea doing this to basically show that The
americans didn't belong here, anymore just to get out wasn't worth, it. Basically,
Yeah AND i get the.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
IDEA i, MEAN i was but five at the, time
not super into politics, yet BUT i get the idea
that Getting american troops out Of korea was probably a
pretty popular idea That carter was laying.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
Out, yeah and you Know.
Speaker 3 (21:14):
Vietnam, yeah, well And kissinger was still ticked off About.
Speaker 1 (21:17):
Vietnam so he was, like if we don't do, this
it's going to send a message that to Other asian
countries and THE ussr In china that we have no
resolve and that we're going to stand. Down and you,
know he wanted his Guy forward back in there, Obviously
so he was out, voted like you, said, thankfully but
he was, like all, right we still need to show a,
(21:38):
force like we need to do. Something and the one
thing that everybody in the room agreed, on even if
it WAS i, MEAN i know it was somewhat, strategical
but it was also. Symbolic they were like we're cutting
that gd tree. Down no matter what anyone else, Says
we're going to cut that thing. Down and they were
all like haharump for.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
Umph so, yeah they, Decided, okay we're not going to
actually destroy, anything we're not going to fire any, missiles
we're not going to kill, anybody but that doesn't mean
we're not going to show them that we could do
that if we wanted, to, Right and what they came
up with was known As Operation Paul, bunyan which is
one of the better names of any Operation i've ever. Heard, yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
Totally it was under command Of General Richard. Stillwell he
was the commander in chief of THE un command, there
and the, message like you, said was to sort of,
intimidate show that we could do something if we wanted.
To they had forty thousand troops over there that WERE i,
Mean dave says here it was raised To defcon, three
(22:41):
which is somewhat counterintuitive because it's raising a number even
though it's being, lowered, right.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
Yeah, yeah right in the middle between one and, five
and one's the. Highest it is very.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
Confusing, yeah so you're raising deaf, coon but the number goes.
Lower it took me a second to figure that. Out
BUT i have seen, wargame SO i know how it.
Works and a digit see The house Of. Dynamite have
you seen that, yet the New Catherine bigelow. Movie, no
IT'S i think it's. ON i think it's A netflix
movie about sort of a modern you, know what would
happen if nuclear arms were, Launched like what would we?
(23:14):
Do so it's a very tense thing and there's lots
of deaf con talk.
Speaker 3 (23:20):
AND i liked a lot of. It, YEAH i might
say THAT.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
I can get. THAT i think she's directly funded by THE.
Cia On Catherine, Bigelow, yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:29):
She definitely has her, niche you. Know, yeah for, SURE
i would recommend. IT i didn't care for the third.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
Act that, much But house Of. DYNAMITE i think that's
what it's. Called.
Speaker 1 (23:39):
Great, Nay, YEAH i mean you Get Idris elba as the,
president so that's always a good.
Speaker 3 (23:44):
Move, Oh i'll say.
Speaker 2 (23:45):
That, wait you're talking about. That he's in it With John.
Cena John cena is The American president And Idris elba's
The Prime minister and they actually end up being like action.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
Heroes, No Idris elba is The American, President John cena
is he's nowhere to be.
Speaker 2 (23:58):
Found i'm thinking of something you think it's.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
About, Anyway Operation Paul bunyan is set up. FOR i,
MEAN i Know i'm Saying, bungyan but that's just because
my weird. Accent It's. Bunyan august twenty, first this is
three days after The axe. Attack and what they were
going to do was mobilize sort of the largest mobilization
of our forces and defenses on The korean peninsula since
(24:21):
that fifty Three armistice with some pretty heavy artillery and
airships and sea.
Speaker 3 (24:28):
Ships.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
YEAH i, mean remember When Captain boniface went to escort
the tree trimmers there were fifteen. People now there's eight
hundred men involved in this tree trimming and it's not
even a tree trimming at this. Point right, now they're
aiming to cut the tree.
Speaker 3 (24:45):
Down, yeah they hate this tree at this. Point they
want that tree.
Speaker 2 (24:48):
Dead especially if they think that dear leader planted. It,
right this tree has now become super. Symbolic blood has
been shed to prune this. Tree and you said that
there was a ton of artillery armaments as part of
the show of, force and, boy you got it.
Speaker 1 (25:03):
Right, YEAH i, mean they had flying overhead and clear
view so everyone could, see you, know what was going.
On they had Twenty huey. Helicopters they had Twelve cobra,
GUNSHIPS b fifty two, bombers tank, BUSTER f Four phantom
fighter JETS f one to eleven strategic. BOMBS i mean
(25:23):
they're pulling out all the stops and off the. Coast
they had THE USSS uss DID I sa three s's
or TWO uss, midway four frigates and a cruiser and
aircraft taking off flying. OVERHEAD i mean it was a
real show of.
Speaker 3 (25:41):
Intimidation.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
Yeah THOSE b fifty twos that take the intimidation even
further were flying Inside North korean airspace not too far From.
Peonyang they were also strapped with. Nukes there were nuclear
missiles in this theater, now not just THE b fifty
twos carrying, them but THOSE f one to elevens were
also carrying nuclear warheads as. Missiles so the idea is,
(26:05):
here as part Of Operation Paul bunyan is to trim
the tree or cut the tree down now and also
Show North korea, like do you do not want to
mess with? Us DO i ever do anything like that?
Again and to be prepared that If North korea did do,
something if they were provoked by this tree cutting, down
that they would just be essentially wiped off the map
(26:27):
as a as a. Nation, yeah for.
Speaker 1 (26:29):
Sure and you know the whole AFTER i was studying all,
this right in the middle of, IT i got weirdly
very sad for this.
Speaker 3 (26:36):
Tree.
Speaker 2 (26:37):
YEAH i saw that tree in all of. It i've
seen other people refer to as the poor.
Speaker 1 (26:41):
TREE i, know because in the middle of all this,
STUFF i, mean these you, know bombers are flying, overhead
and these troops are massing these heavy artillery on each
side of the, bridge AND i just picture, that you.
Speaker 3 (26:52):
KNOW i Know i'm.
Speaker 1 (26:53):
ANTHROPOMORPHISING i always say that. Wrong say it for me.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
Anthropomorphizing you, said you just said so, lowly.
Speaker 3 (27:01):
That's, right this.
Speaker 1 (27:02):
Tree BUT i just pictured this poor tree sitting, there like,
MAN i JUST i just want to be a.
Speaker 2 (27:07):
TREE i WISH i were a.
Speaker 3 (27:09):
SHRUB i want to Start World war three or be cut.
Speaker 2 (27:12):
DOWN i know that tree did not get their.
Speaker 3 (27:15):
Wish oh grow, SLOWER i promise.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
Right, HERE i can just shed a few.
Speaker 1 (27:20):
Limbs So Major General john Singlab dave helped us with.
This found a quote that just showed how serious this,
was and he said it was my estimate shared by
many of the, staff that the operation stood a fifty
to fifty chance of starting a, war and that would
have Been World war, three.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
Absolutely a nuclear. War this tree cutting operation could have
Sparked World war, three no. Joke, again that is how
tense things are at THE dmz even still to this.
Speaker 3 (27:48):
Day all, right should we take a.
Speaker 2 (27:50):
Break, yeah let's take a, break and then we're going
to talk About Operation Paul bunyan. Commencing, So, chuck this
(28:18):
is not a reckless. Thing as a matter of, fact
this was really. Calculated you Mentioned General, stilwell who was
in charge of Every american troop In. Korea he personally
came up with this plan and he was not a,
warhawk but he also it was a really good, plan
especially if all of the troops like followed orders and
nobody tried anything provocative and nobody took any bait from
(28:40):
The North. Koreans it was a very good. Plan but
The United states was not reckless in. This in carrying
out this, plan they actually got in touch With china
and THE ussr and basically basically, said, hey you, know
we're thinking about doing something like, this And china and
the USS a both signaled that they were not going
to do anything If North korea started, fighting That North
(29:03):
korea was on their. OWN i think they've blinked twice
and pulled their left ear lobe and then touched the
bill of their, cap and The United states is, like,
oh we. Gotcha so now it was a little less,
tense even though it could still start a war With North.
Korea at least we had this idea That china and
THE ussr wouldn't immediately. Intervene.
Speaker 1 (29:23):
YEAH i immediately thought Of Doctor, strangelove AND i could.
Speaker 3 (29:28):
Just Hear Peter sellers on the phone, going.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
Well, dmitri you see there's this tree that's, Perfect it's so.
GREAT i think we didn't mention too that the actual
tree cutting was going to be done by unarmed military.
Speaker 3 (29:43):
Engineers that they sent.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
Forward.
Speaker 1 (29:45):
YEAH i, mean the fact that they weren't armed is
kind of neither here nor, there because there were so many.
ARMS i think the people actually on the bridge supposedly
just had like, these you, know clubs and axe handles
and side, arms but both sides of the bridge were
stocked with heavy artillery from both. Sides AND i also
saw that The Korean South korean faction that was assisting,
(30:08):
us they rolled in and blocked the, bridge AND i
don't think they were supposed to have anything more than just,
pistols but they unloaded a bunch of sand bags and
had a bunch OF m sixteens hidden that they took.
Speaker 2 (30:20):
Out, yeah they also showed that they had claymore mines
land mines strapped to their chests and they had the
detonators in their other hand and were daring The North
koreans to come get them because they would blow themselves
up in The North. Koreans and this had not been
passed by THE Un Command force or anything like. That
no one had any idea that The South korean commandos
(30:42):
were going to do something like, that because, again we're
trying to not let this, be you, know any more
tense than it already. Is and all of a sudden
there's essentially suicide bombers on the, scenes like mocking The North.
Koreans so that definitely altered things a little. Bit playmore With.
Claymore oh, YEAH i forgot. THAT i knew that from
being a. Kid where where'd you hear? That is that
(31:03):
just from the military and it trickled.
Speaker 3 (31:05):
Out, NO i thought it Was The, simpsons wasn't.
Speaker 2 (31:07):
It. NO i think it was like a maybe in
a rambow or something. Like there's no WAY i would
have known that as a.
Speaker 1 (31:14):
Kid, Otherwise, OKAY i can't remember WHERE i heard it,
first but at any, rate it's a very tense.
Speaker 3 (31:20):
SCENE i think we've setting that.
Speaker 1 (31:22):
Up and, again you, know we had orders not to,
provoke like our mission is to cut that tree, down
but all hell's going to break loose if anything. Happens
and like you, Mentioned North korea had some pretty decent
incentive to kind of start some. Fighting they didn't Want
World war, three but they wanted, to you, know they
Wanted South korea still at this.
Speaker 3 (31:44):
Point.
Speaker 2 (31:44):
Yeah plus Also Kim il, sung The Dear, leader the
First Dear, leader he was A communist guerrilla fighting The
japanese In World War. Two he was battle hardened and. Tested,
yeah so he was totally into. Fighting he wasn't like
a dove or a diplomat at. All.
Speaker 1 (32:03):
Yeah AND i think we didn't mention too that the
previous tree, trimming supposedly we had told them that this
was going to, happen and so the whole provocation to begin,
with if they knew about it ahead of, time then
they came down there with that, knowledge because they didn't
raise any. Objections apparently that we were, like, hey were
going to trim this tree so we can have a
better line of sight and you'll have a better line of,
(32:24):
sight and no one said, anything you, know to the.
Contrary so the whole thing was really provocation by The North.
Speaker 3 (32:31):
Koreans.
Speaker 2 (32:32):
Yeah, absolutely that was the first time When Captain bonifass
And Lieutenant barrett got, murdered.
Speaker 1 (32:37):
Right, yeah, exactly which again made it sort of seem
like it was planned to begin.
Speaker 2 (32:41):
With, yeah for. Sure so at oh seven hundred, hours
that's seven am On august twenty, first nineteen seventy, Six
Operation Paul bunyan, commences and like you, SAID i mean
basically what we described there was there was an order
not to. ENGAGE i mean, essentially if The North koreans
started unloading with sniper fire or machine, guns then, yes
(33:06):
we're going to. Engage and it was a very tense,
operation but they got in. There the military engineers cut
the tree essentially down to a ten foot. Stump they
were USING i Read vietnam era issue chainsaws that weren't
in very good, shape so it took him a little.
While but it took him about forty five minutes to
(33:28):
complete the whole. Thing and they should have sent out Leather.
Face he should.
Speaker 3 (33:33):
Have he could have gotten that done in ten.
Speaker 2 (33:35):
Minutes, Yeah but they left this big stump with a
two like it was branching at the, top and one
of the soldiers who was at the scene said that
it had looked like somebody raising their arms in, surrender
like The North koreans were. Surrendering, YEAH i saw.
Speaker 1 (33:52):
That kissinger tried to get a carving artist in there
to shape it in the form of the middle.
Speaker 3 (33:56):
Finger.
Speaker 2 (33:57):
Right those guys are, great the chainsaw. Artists, Man, yeah
it's pretty. AMAZING i don't know if the intent was
ever to cut down the entire. TREE i don't think
that that was the, plan even in the second, time
even In Operation Paul. Bunyan but they left this. Stump
everybody on THE us side just went back. Out they just.
(34:19):
Withdrew the operation was, successful but things were still quite.
Tense it's not it wasn't clear Whether North korea was
going to respond, still just because the operation was done
and now there weren't a bunch of Troops america or
THE Un. Command they just kept patrolling The Joint Security
area like it was any other day because that's what
(34:40):
it was supposed to. Be even though this operation had,
commenced it was now, over so things were supposed to
go back to, normal but we still had no idea
What North korea was going to.
Speaker 1 (34:48):
Do, so you, know pretext to this was they were
very unapologetic about the whole incident leading up to, that
like After Captain boniface And Lieutenant barrett were, killed but
After Paul bunyan they thankfully backed off that there wasn't
like an expressed, apology But President Kim il sung did
(35:12):
express regret for those, deaths so they clearly were sort
of backing down at this, point you, know much to everyone's.
Relief and it was this incident that basically everyone was, like,
hey you know, what.
Speaker 3 (35:23):
Maybe this maybe we didn't think this through.
Speaker 1 (35:26):
How this thing operates with these guys all being here
in the same place at all, times and so it's
set up much differently. Now so the actual line that
runs the link of THE dmc is the actual dividing
line even through THE gs THE.
Speaker 2 (35:39):
Jsa, yeah that dividing, line the military demarcation, line that
is the actual border as far AS i, understand Between
North korea And South korea with THE dmz buffers on
either side of, It and they just ignored it in THE,
jsa but then they started enforcing. It so now The
North korean troops and THE u And command troops do not,
intermingle even though their posts are feet away from one. Another,
(36:04):
yeah it would be a really big deal for one
to attack the other because you would be crossing the.
Border now there's no free fight. Invasion it would be
an enormous. Deal it'd be an international. Incident and in,
fact there was something like that in nineteen eighty. Four
there was A soviet exchange student who was on a
(36:24):
tour with The North koreans who ran across the border
to defect into The west and a firefight started that
resulted in the deaths of Three North koreans and ONE
u In Command South korean, Soldier and it was a, huge,
again an international incident because some of The North korean
troops had run across the demarcation line to chase after the. Defector,
(36:49):
yeah for.
Speaker 1 (36:49):
Sure so everyone is like pretty happy and considered it
a success except For. Kissinger of, course The North koreans
back down really, quickly so it really didn't give him
any chance during this election year to kind of tout
some big victory Of. AMERICA i, mean it was a,
victory BUT i don't think it was like some huge
(37:10):
international news thing he. Wanted he still wanted them to
have blown up the barracks or to taken out like
a warship or two as like a big show of.
Force so everyone was pretty stoked except For Old.
Speaker 2 (37:22):
Henry so they left that poplar tree there as a,
reminder a monument of. Sorts, actually until the tenth anniversary
of the axe murder incident On august, eighteenth nineteen eighty,
six they pulled the tree, out stump and, all roots and,
all and replaced it with a Memorial and there's a
(37:44):
plaque on it that reads on this spot was located
the yellow poplar tree which was the focal point of
the axe murders of Two United nations command, officers Kept
Arthur bonifas And First Lieutenant Mark, barrett who were attacked
and killed By North korean guards while supervising a work
party trimming the tree on Eighteen august nineteen seventy, six
and it's just so plainly put without any flowery language
(38:08):
that it also just kind of gets across the horrible
absurdity of the whole. Thing, yeah for.
Speaker 1 (38:15):
Sure and just a few years, ago in twenty twenty,
two that was a sort of a.
Speaker 3 (38:21):
Joint show of.
Speaker 1 (38:23):
Not, friendship but like maybe we should kind of literally
put this to rest by planting a. TREE i think
the presidents of the two countries got together in THE
jsa to plant a pine tree of, peace and they took,
turned shoveling soil from each, side watered it with rivers
from each, side and the pine tree Of peace became you,
know and right now is sort of a big symbol
(38:46):
of kind of what happened there and maybe let's try
and just chill things out a little.
Speaker 2 (38:50):
Bit. Yeah what made it even more significant was that
The South korean president Moonjay in was actually one of
The South korean commandos who took part in. Operation, yeah it's.
Crazy and then there's one other little note THAT i
found pretty. Interesting there's a one whole par three well.
(39:10):
GOLF i don't think you could call it a, course
but it's it's like an astro turf part, well a
par three that's surrounded by land mines now where the
poplar tree used to, be and it's called the most
dangerous hole in golf From Sports.
Speaker 1 (39:25):
Illustrated, yeah and we never really, said you, know we
kind of hinted around that this might have been all
planned to begin.
Speaker 3 (39:31):
With and there is circumstantial evidence.
Speaker 1 (39:34):
That suggests that that whole attack was pre planned to begin, with,
right you, know BECAUSE i mentioned that we had gotten
in touch with him and, said, hey we're going to
prune this, tree and no one really said, like, no
don't do, that and so that attack seemingly came out of.
Nowhere but one big clue, WAS i think three minutes
after this incident, Occurred Radio, pyonyang which is The North
(39:57):
korean state, radio they broadcast a very biased report on,
this like right after it. Happened so it seems pretty
clear that it was pre, planned but analysis later on
seems to indicate that The soviets did not know about
it and they were kind of acting on their. Own.
Speaker 2 (40:13):
NO i saw one other piece of circumstantial evidence too
that kind of is pretty, definitive is that within five
hours there was a non aligned, nation which where the
nations during The Cold war who didn't choose. Sides all
of them were meeting In, korea and within five, Hours
korean delegates were at that meeting handing out memos describing
(40:34):
this the axe murders and totally blaming it on The,
americans like had completely flipped it around in an effort
to kind of drum up support to get The americans.
Out so that's it does seem pretty likely that The
North koreans planned the axe. Murders, YEAH i, agreed you
got anything?
Speaker 3 (40:55):
Else got nothing?
Speaker 2 (40:57):
Else this is a good, one. Man hats off to
the the person or people who suggested, it and maybe
listen out for a future random episode where we thank
you for.
Speaker 3 (41:06):
IT i couldn't find. IT i might have found this
on my.
Speaker 2 (41:09):
Own i'll help. You, look you know.
Speaker 1 (41:10):
WHAT i. THINK i was looking for live show topics
and came across.
Speaker 2 (41:14):
This oh, Cool, yeah this would have been a good.
One but there's there's a lot of downers. Too, yeah
not a lot of, jokey ridiculous. Stuff, yeah do you
have anything? ELSE i do? Not, Okay well that means
it's time for. Listener.
Speaker 1 (41:29):
Man i'm gonna call this the pain of, preemption because
that's What michael called. It, hey, guys Love Saturday Morning cartoon.
EPISODE i was born in eighty four and watched them
well into high. School your episode covered a, lot but
you left out one, thing the pain of. Preemption local
channels carried the big networks would often cut off the
cartoons to show.
Speaker 3 (41:49):
Golf baseball or other.
Speaker 1 (41:50):
Sports and as a, KID i, KNOW i never knew
when this is gonna. Happen just, suddenly the joy of
cartoon was abruptly halted show a golf match that no
kid would care. ABOUT i never got to see The
christmas Special, christopher The Christmas, tree or the last episode
Of Ultimate. Muscle you haven't heard of any either one of.
Speaker 2 (42:08):
THOSE i haven't, Either BUT i still feel for, him he.
Speaker 1 (42:13):
SAID i don't want to bring down the, room but
it's important to remember that those wonderful mornings could be
broken at any. Time thanks for making such a great.
Show that is From michael j. Crandall AND i forgot
to Mention. Michael his initial salutation was Dear mike And.
Speaker 2 (42:27):
Josh, wow he's got himself on the. BRAIN i. Know,
well that was a great, Email, michael and thank you
To mike for reading.
Speaker 3 (42:36):
It, Okay i'll Be.
Speaker 2 (42:37):
Mike, no you're Not, mike Your. Chuck everybody knows.
Speaker 1 (42:40):
That that's my brother's middle name, too, though so that
was a plat Yeah, Scott.
Speaker 3 (42:44):
Mike oh, no, no, no that's his first.
Speaker 1 (42:46):
NAME i forget my brother and my sister their middle
name is their, name which is.
Speaker 3 (42:51):
Interesting i'm not sure why that.
Speaker 2 (42:52):
Happened this has gotten so confusing to.
Speaker 3 (42:55):
Me He's Michael, scott is he?
Speaker 2 (42:57):
Really? Yeah that's. Awesome why are you calling him that
all the?
Speaker 3 (43:01):
TIME i don't, KNOW i probably.
Speaker 1 (43:03):
SHOULD i, mean that's the office, guy, right, yeah, yeah,
YEAH i never have thought about that until right.
Speaker 2 (43:09):
Now well that's What i'm going to call him from now.
On all, Right, okay if you want to be Like
michael crandall Not Michael scott and send us an, email
we would love. That please. Do you can send it
off to stuff podcast at iHeartRadio dot.
Speaker 1 (43:22):
Com stuff You Should know is a production Of. iHeartRadio
for more podcasts my Heart, radio visit The iHeartRadio, App Apple,
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