April 2, 2026 • 36 mins
Deciding how to share water is pretty important stuff when there isn't much of it around. Today we dive into the Colorado River Compact.
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Stuff you should know, a production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's
Chuck and Jerry's here too. We're just a few river
rats hanging out thinking about rivers and such.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
That's right. If you live in Wyoming, Colorado, Utah, Nevada,
New Mexico, Arizona, or California, this one's This one's for you.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Yeah. Or if you're interested in water supply, this one's
for you as well. If you like really difficult interstate treaties,
I think you'll like this one as well.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
There's one person out there that's like, oh my god, guys, finally,
So yes.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
We're talking about the Colorado River. We're talking about the
compact of water sharing among those states, the basin states
they call them, which is a pretty cool name of
sharing the water that comes out of the Colorado River,
which is about almost a fifteen hundred mile long river
that winds through the southwestern US all the way into Mexico,
(01:12):
and it helps feed all of those states, most of
which should not have the populations that they have and
wouldn't otherwise were it not for their ability to tap
into the water from the Colorado.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
That's right. And by the way, I remembered halfway through
your opening salvo that this was a listener suggestion. So
I looked at up real quick, and this is from
George Bouncin.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
Oh nice, Thanks a lot, George. This is a good idea.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
Yeah, I agreed. So I bet George lives in one
of those states. But like you said, the Colorado River
very important. It provides I think Julia helped us with this,
and it supports roughly ten percent of Americans and one
point for trillion dollars economically. So it is a very
very important river system that starts there in the Rocky
(02:07):
Mountains and then flows generally southwest, and there are all
sorts of tributaries and things that feed into it. As
we'll see, that has become a bone of contention here
and there, but a lot of it is there are
bones of contention because this river compact that they forged
in nineteen twenty two to say, hey, how are you
(02:27):
going to divide this water up? Everybody wants to use
this stuff. It's it's up now this year, right in
twenty twenty six. Yeah, and they're trying to figure out,
you know, what to do about the next twenty years,
and there's especially between California and Arizona. But a lot
of the states have bones of contention with one another
(02:48):
on how this water is used.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
Yeah, because there's almost a self defeating pickle that they've
been in just from sharing this. By having access to
that water, they've been able to boom like cities like
Las Vegas, Los Angeles, San Diego, Phoenix, Tucson. The list
just goes on. They are able to have these huge
(03:12):
populations in golf courses, in industry, and agriculture in the
Imperial Valley in California because of the Colorado River. So
that's attracted more and more people, which means you need
more and more water. So those bones of contention have
grown over the years. And now that it's one hundred
plus years old, Yeah, there's an issue. There's a problem
(03:32):
with this that we're going to see because this river
is like I can't take any more.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
Yeah. Well yeah, and we're going to get into that
stuff too, because there's not as much water as they
thought there would be and it seems like it's getting
it's not coming back to the boom days for reasons
that we're going to talk about. But one thing we
should talk about is why water is so important out there,
And obviously one of the reasons is because there's not
(04:01):
much of it. Highs out in the desert can reach
over one hundred and twenty five degrees with great regularity
annual rainfall. This is near the Hoover Dam, and you know,
we did a great episode I think on the Hoover Dam.
Between the Vata and Arizona. Annual rainfall there is about
four inches. So the Colorado River is the thing. It's
(04:21):
the most key thing that we have at our disposal
to keep things alive.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
Yeah. It's mother, lifeblood, life giver, that's what they call
it there. Yeah, so let's talk about the Hoover Dam.
Not just the Hoover Dam that one gets all of
the credit. There's also the Imperial Dam too. Yeah, that
diverts water to the All American Canal, which is a
very smart I think name, because it's one of those
(04:46):
things where if you dispute the water going there, they
could be like, well, you don't like the All American Canal?
Do you hate America?
Speaker 1 (04:54):
Yeah? Sure.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
So there's the Boulder Dam, now, the Hoover Dam and
the Imperial Dam. In both of those helped bank water
for what we know as the lower basin states and
the upper basin states are the ones responsible for essentially
filling those water banks.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
That's right. So back when this, you know, in nineteen
twenty two, when this thing was first enacted and ratified, well,
I guess it was ratified a little more slowly over time,
as we'll see, but California and Arizona were developing much
more so than places like you know, Colorado and Wyoming.
(05:33):
So as far as the upper and the lower basin,
the lower basin areas were really exploding at the time.
If you were closer to those headwaters, you didn't have
those dams. There weren't opportunities to sort of divert that
water to save up for the future maybe, So all
of that water was going downstream where they were collecting
it and using it, which is sort of where the
(05:56):
animosity began.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
I think, yeah, and the upstream states and grew that
we're using that water. We're like, well, wait a minute,
we want water too, Like what's going to happen? We
need something. We need somebody to come in and figure
out like how we can get our water too. And
there was a supreme Court decision that really scared the
upper states, the upstream states, which was the doctrine of
(06:20):
prior appropriation, which was applied to water rights. And the
prior appropriation basically means if you were the first one
to start using something from that point on, you have seniority.
So if you ever come up against the conflict between
you and somebody else, if you're the senior one, you
automatically get preference. And California and Arizona have been using
(06:42):
this water through water projects before, say like Colorado or
Wyoming or Utah, and that meant that they were going
to get the short end of the stick no matter what,
just because California and Arizona had these booming populations.
Speaker 1 (06:57):
Yeah, for sure. And you know, to be clear, that
Supreme decision was basically that that first in time, first
and right applied across the state lines.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
So yeah, yeah, good point.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
You're sharing this river, but they were using it, so like,
sorry that you can't now take that away from them essentially,
But like you said, Colorado and Wyoming and other states
in New Mexico were like, well, we want to grow
one day and do these big projects too. We're just
not there yet. It's nineteen twenty two, give us a break.
So they got together to negotiate this thing, the Colorado
River Compact in Santa Fe, New Mexico, in November of
(07:31):
nineteen twenty two. Nice nuts and bolts. Wise, it's kind
of cool. It's the first time more than three US
states divided water among themselves. And we're going to talk
a little bit more about the law of the River
because it's got a lot of like tendrils to it.
But that established what would evolve over time as what's
called the law of the River.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
Yeah, for sure. So here comes Herbert Hoover into our story.
If you were waiting for Hoover to show up, by god,
here he is president. No, he was the Secretary of
Commerce under President Warren G. Harding, but he did such
a good job he eventually became president and they renamed
the Boulder Dam the Hoover damn thanks to Herbert, Yeah, right,
(08:11):
or because of Herbert. So he steps in and says, hey, guys,
we need to figure out what's going on here. We
need to figure out how to basically let these water
thirsty states do their projects, because these are great projects.
We can all agree, but at the same time, we
need to make sure that these upstream groups when they
want to do their own projects, if they aren't do,
(08:33):
they'll have the water that they need. But we want
development throughout the system. That's the key, right. And most
people don't know what Herbert Hoover sounds like, but that
was an exact impersonation of what he sounded like in
the way he talked.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
Yeah. Yeah, but here's the deal. He was like, you know,
let's not divide it up by states. Let's not apportion
it state by state, because that just makes too much sense.
He said, Let's split it. Split up the Colorado River
into two equal parts, and a lot equal amounts to
each half. So you got the upper basin and your
(09:08):
lower basin allotments and we'll talk about numbers here in
a second, sure, but within those, then you distribute by state,
like you've got the upper portion splitting it between I
guess everything. But California and Arizona, right, aren't they the
only two in the lower basin?
Speaker 2 (09:26):
No, Nevada, I think is as well.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
Oh, Nevada, that's right. Okay.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
So the one proposal that they initially came up with,
though kind of one of the key early things was
they promised the lower basin, all right, you're going to
get some extra water here because you've already got these projects.
You're kind of grandfathered in because you've got these projects
and developments underway, so you're going to get some extra water.
And nobody really liked it. The lower Basin didn't even
(09:53):
like this idea to begin with.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
No, Julia helped us with this, and she turned up
a quote from one of the men who was involved
in this compact in nineteen twenty two. He was the
one from the representative from New Mexico. He said, I
will register my vote as a yes, but I do
it only because to my mind it is the least
objectionable of the attempts that have been made to frame
the idea expressed in it, and not because I approve it.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
Yeah, he held his nose and voted yes.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
Yeah, And he apparently was not the only one who
did that. So they met twenty seven times. Yeah, they
finally signed the Colorado River Compact. And another great Hoover
quote is that this was a problem of more extreme
complexity than will ever be appreciated by the outside world.
And just after researching this for a little bit, I
(10:43):
kind of understand where he's coming from, the amount of
stuff that you would have to take into consideration to
do this even remotely fairly. Yeah, your eye on development
is just I can't imagine keeping all that stuff together
and coming up with it, let alone coming up with
one that you could get seven different states to finally
(11:05):
sign on.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
There's no way. I mean, they all signed on, but
like he said, no one really thought it was super fair.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
Right.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
So the compact, like I said, divided things up into
the upper and the lower basin. And that divide actually
has a place, like a physical place, which is Lee
Ferry l.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
E E f E r r Y, not Lee Perry, not.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
Lee scratch Perry. That is at the border where the
river passes from the upper watershed to the lower watershed,
And that is where there's really unique place, quite frankly,
where all the tributaries upstream come together in this one
beautiful single stream before splitting back up again to other
branches on the other side. So they looked at that
and said, hey, Lee Faery, looks like probably a pretty
(11:48):
good spot to divide this into Colorado, Wyoming, New Mexico,
and Utah. And then like Joshua, one day say, Arizona, California,
and don't forget Nevada.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
Chuck for sure. So yeah, it's also just for you
Grand Canyon fans. It's not the same Lee's Ferry. This
is lee Faery and it's nowhere near it.
Speaker 1 (12:10):
I think if you're a Grand Canyon fan, you got
to know that by now.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
You'd hope. So, but what if you're new to being
a fan of the Grand Canyon. You know you don't
want to and I don't want to set them up
to make fools of themselves around the campfire.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
So they this is one of the problems. And we're
going to talk about this later too, but they did
a little bit of research on waterflow because they had
to figure out, like, all right, how much water is
that even And what they measured was sixteen point four
million acre feet, splitting that up into almost fifty percent
of each seven point five million acre feet per basin
(12:46):
in perpetuity, with the rest leftover for Mexico. And we're
going to talk about that, but just so you know,
a water a one acre foot of water is enough
water to submerge an acre of land to the depth
of one foot.
Speaker 2 (13:01):
I came up with that one.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
I knew I wasn't gonna have to make the Joe.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
I knew that. You knew I was gonna make that joke.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
You can't read that without thinking, what Josh, How Josh
waters is lawned.
Speaker 2 (13:13):
That's how I would farm too. I would just submerge
the acres of land in the depth of a foot
and be like, Wow, I'm done with the irrigating for
the year.
Speaker 1 (13:20):
That's right, here's your rice and crayberries. So an acre
of land at the depth of one foot or three
hundred and twenty eight hundred and fifty one gallons of water.
So they measured sixteen point four million acre feet of
that and split it in half, with the rest going
to Mexico.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
Yeah. Mexico is like, hey, what about us, And they're like,
you get one point five million acre feet just from
us for friends. As friends, Mexico, we love you guys,
and they're like, oh, we love you back. So I
think they split Mexico's allotment between the upper and the
lower basin equally.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
Right. There was also another group of stakeholders that kept
getting overlooked and there's still overlooked to some degree, and
that are the Native American tribes whose reservations draw water
from the Colorado River, and the only appearance they made
in the compact was nothing in this compact shall be
construed as affecting the obligations of the United States of
(14:13):
America two Indian tribes.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
What does that mean?
Speaker 2 (14:17):
It means that the Indian tribes are going to have
to fend for themselves in court if they want any
of this water. And apparently every time they did, the states,
the seven Basin states, at least some of them would
lobby behind the scenes, use their clout to try to
get the Native Americans to get them denied their access
(14:37):
to the water. Of course it is I think there
are thirty tribes that have a claim on it, and
right now I think twenty three are legally drawing water
from the Colorado to fulfill their needs. But that means
that seven have not had a chance to in over
one hundred years.
Speaker 1 (14:56):
That's right. So as far as how this actually works,
over a ten year period, the upper basin has to
deliver at least seventy five million acre feet of water
to the lower basin, and they measure it there at
leaf aerry. That's like, that's why the dividing point is
say they're actually measure this water, and the upper basin
(15:17):
can store whatever they have left over after they've delivered
that to the lower basin and their portion to Mexico.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
And then one other thing you kind of already mentioned
it those projects that were already underway were really close
to being developed. Yeah, they were allotted extra water until
I think Lake Mead reached five million acre feet the reservoir.
So yeah, after that it was like, nope, you get
(15:45):
your water from the same allotment as everybody else.
Speaker 1 (15:48):
That's right. And once those projects are done, like for
all new projects, if you're in the lower basin, you
got to start using your reserve or your alitment rather.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
Yeah, I think that fan of complex interstate treaty is
really happy right now.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
I imagine, so you want to take a break, then yeah,
let's do it.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
Okay, we're taking a break. So you can imagine that
(16:35):
there was a lot of problems once they came up
with this proposed plan to get everybody on board, and
in fact, Arizona didn't sign on until nineteen forty four,
like a couple decades later. Yeah, and the other six
were like, okay, we need to just rewrite this a
little bit so this can proceed forward without Arizona. And
I guess Arizona and California have always had this stand off,
(16:59):
this angry kind of tiff a row something like that.
Over water rights in California typically wins that one.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
Yeah, what I couldn't find out is what did they
do in the meantime?
Speaker 2 (17:13):
I guess they just took as much water as they wanted.
Speaker 1 (17:16):
Okay, it's not like they said, that's my guess. Yeah,
all right, That's the one thing I couldn't quite find.
Speaker 2 (17:22):
Because I mean, they wouldn't go like twenty years without
what They'd be like, Wow, we're just gonna go without water?
I would think not. I would guess they'd just take
whatever they wanted. What I don't understand then is if
they did that, why did they finally sign on if
they had unlimited water? You know?
Speaker 1 (17:37):
Yeah, that listener who is really into the river projects
they're going to write and I'm.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
Sure, yeah, we need to hear from them.
Speaker 1 (17:44):
All right, So now I promise talk the law of
the river. That is the more complex set of laws
and compacts in court decisions and contracts and all these
guidelines and stuff that have been issued over the years.
It's all together called the Law of the River, but
the color Rudder River Compact is sort of the spine
of this. Yeah, but we do have to mention these
(18:05):
because a lot of them have popped up over the years.
There was the Boulder Canyon Project Act, which we previously
mentioned in nineteen twenty eight that officially ratified the River Compact.
But that's where the Hoover Dam came from. Boulder Dam
at the time, and that all American Canal And that's
when they officially apportioned everything out within that seven point
(18:26):
five million for each Arizona got for the lower basin,
that is, Arizona got two point eight million, California got
four point four, Nevada got point three million. Yeah, and
the upper basin went with a percentage, right.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
Yes, I think Colorado got the most at fifty one percent,
in Utah twenty three, New Mexico eleven, and Wyoming fourteen.
Right right, So that was that's how they finally got
it a portioned that upper basin. That wasn't until nineteen
forty eight when they finally divided it all up.
Speaker 1 (18:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
And one reason that that could wait is because even
still today, those upper basin states use way less than
their allotment of water. I think California uses more water
than all of the upper basin states combined, even though
the allotment is different. Yeah, and I think that the
upper basin states have basically had to bow to the
(19:22):
idea of progress and just let the lower basin states
use more than their allotment of water.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
Yeah, that's right. There was another and like you said,
that was nineteen forty eight for the Upper Compact. Nineteen
sixty three comes along. You have Arizona v. California, where
the decision was handed out. They were basically like, what
do we do with the surplus water in the lower basin,
And this decision said California Arizona split it at fifty
(19:48):
to fifty. But also these five Native American reservations and
some wildlife refuges and recreational areas, like they get some
water too.
Speaker 2 (19:59):
Yeah. There's also you kind of mentioned how tributaries can
become its own bone of contention or point of contention.
I guess California was using tributary water before it got
to the Colorado River, because, like you said, all those
tributaries branched together and come together at Lee Ferry and
(20:20):
then brant out again. I guess California is just tapping
into one like do do do don't mind us. Yeah,
we're just taking upper basin water from one of the tributaries.
And the court was like, that's fine, that doesn't count
as Colorado River apportionment.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
Yeah, that was nineteen sixty four, right with that decree.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
Yeah, in Arizona one California.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
There was the Colorado River Basin Project Act in nineteen
sixty eight that basically just green lit a bunch of
projects on both sides, you know, both basins, upper and lower.
But the key part of this one, I think was
it said, all right, if there are any overcap reserve
during water shortages, California gets the rights to those.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
Yeah, because they had the earliest projects, so they had
that first in first right thing. Also, that act created
the Central Arizona Project, which brought water to Phoenix and Tucson,
and the population of Arizona doubled since nineteen ninety three
when the Central Arizona Project was finally complained. Doubled because
(21:23):
of the water that was diverted to Arizona from the
Colorado River.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
Yeah. I mean it's gorgeous out there. I lived out there.
People always loved Arizona, but they were thirsty, so this
really helped out.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
Yeah, for sure, it gets kind of dry out there.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
Yeah. I lived in Yuma, and you know that's where well,
we'll see Yuma plays a part, huge part. Surprise pop
up appearance by Yuma coming up everybody.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
Yep, let's see. There's also review mandated reviews every five years.
The Department of the Interior was directed to take over
managing this thing. And then in nineteen seventy three, thanks
to the Knicks Administration of all People, the Endangered Species
Act basically said you need to prioritize environmental protection over
(22:07):
development projects when they conflict, which wow, like is that
still in force?
Speaker 1 (22:15):
Yeah? Probably not. One thing they decided to do in
nineteen seventy four was give Mexico better water. So the
Colorado River Basin Salinity Control Act said, all right, let's
get some salinity control going over the water that we're
sending down to Mexico, so you know, they need good
water down there.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
And then along came a drought, a drought that lasted
from the year two thousand. In the year two thousand
to twenty twenty three, and by two thousand and seven,
the basin states were like, hey, hey, the river's not
flowing quite as much as it used to. So they
got together and they basically like, we need to coordinate
(22:59):
these discharges from Lake Mead and Lake Powell down to
the lower basin states because these allotments were not the
river's not keeping up with the allotments anymore. We need
to rethink this. And they started to really take notice
of this change that the river was undergoing starting in
two thousand and seven, and since then it's just gotten
(23:21):
worse and worse and become more and more critical.
Speaker 1 (23:24):
Yeah, for sure. That led to twenty nineteen with a
drought Contingency Plan, which is basically just like, hey, we
all need to work together with conservation here because this
drought is murdering us.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
Yeah. That meeting was like when they cut to the
control tower and airplane and everybody's just losing their minds. Yeah,
that's what that meeting looks.
Speaker 1 (23:46):
Yeah for sure, Chuck, I feel like.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
We've reached another great place for a break. What say
you about taking a break?
Speaker 1 (23:55):
Let's do it all right, So we're back. We mentioned,
(24:21):
you know, that long drought and conservation efforts that were
happening and are happening, but aren't nearly enough, and we
need to talk about some of the reasons why it's
not enough and what's going on out there. And one
of the problems is that you know, I mentioned early
on when they calculated the flow of the river at
sixteen point four million acre feet per year, this was
(24:45):
one hydrology study that was done in Yuma, Arizona. Of
all cases up, it's very strange they went down to Yuma.
It was based on a single set of measurement measurements.
This is if you don't know where Yuma is, it's
hundreds of min downstream from Lee F. Ferry.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
Some people are like, oh, oh, okay.
Speaker 1 (25:04):
Yeah, So it didn't make a lot of sense to
do right there, and much less just do one. So
they had another available study. Even at the time, there
was a survey from a hydrologists named Eugene Clyde LaRue
who hiked hundreds of miles all up and down the
Colorado River taking measurements all over the place. Yeah, and
(25:27):
that had about a million and a half gallons less.
Speaker 2 (25:32):
Per year acre feet even, And.
Speaker 1 (25:35):
They said let's go with that other one because sixteen
point four million is a higher number, and we think
that's just the one we should go with. And that
was a big mistake.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
That's ultimately what they did. I saw that there was
a total that LaRue study was widely available. People knew
about it, and they were like, nah, that was That
means that the agreement overstretched the water supply from the
Colorado River. From the very first day. It was never
able to supply the all of the water that was
(26:05):
being divided among the states.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
That was a huge, huge.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
Problem from the outset right. And in fact, scientists have
estimated that the basin states have been taking about a
million acre feet per year over what the river can
supply for decades, and right now they think that the
river's producing about thirteen million acre feet per year. So
(26:32):
even if they had gone with LaRue's estimate a fifteen
million acre feet, it would be producing less now. And
not all of it is because more water is being
drawn from it than it can provide. And a lot
of that instead has to do with the fact that
seventy percent of the Colorado River's water flow comes from
(26:52):
snow melt from the rockies. And I don't know what
to tell you if you don't believe in climate change.
But the Rockies ain't been getting nearly as much snow
every year year in general as it used to, and
as a result, the Colorado River is shrunk to eighty
percent of its flow compared to I think the nineteen nineties.
Speaker 1 (27:12):
Yeah, so that's a big problem. Another problem is how
this water is being used and how it's always been used.
If you're talking residential use, commercial use, industrial use, it's
only about twenty to twenty five percent of the Colorado River.
Speaker 2 (27:26):
Yeah, get this.
Speaker 1 (27:27):
The rest of that is agriculture, and specifically agriculture to
mainly grow alfalfa and hay to feed cattle. And if
you're wondering why in the world did anyone ever decide
to raise cattle out in the middle of the desert,
it's because of the eighteen seventy seven Desert Land Act.
(27:50):
I think you can walk us through that. But Julia
found a quote though from a guy from a vox
Media article named Kenny Terrella. He said, if policymakers and
agricultural researchers were to start our food system from scratch,
they probably wouldn't put a bunch of cows in the
middle of a desert.
Speaker 2 (28:05):
Yeah, and there's there's a lot of reasons for that.
They suck up a lot of water because that half
of that water going to just grow. Hey, that doesn't
include all the water the cattle drink themselves. Their hoofs
compact the arid soil more so that soil is less
able to hold moisture when it does get water. And yeah,
the reason that it happened is that that Desert Land Act,
(28:26):
like you said, that was essentially created to send people
out to improve the desert, go figure out good stuff
to develop the desert. And the idea in and of
itself was good. You could just go up and be like,
I want some land please, and they would give you
some land and you would go farm it. There were
two keys. One you didn't have to live there, and
(28:47):
two corporations got a bunch of people to go in
and act as their agents dummies essentially, and get the
land that they then turned around and sold to the
corporation for next to nothing. The corporation put huge amounts
of land together and started raising cattle on it. So
corporations cattle corporations have had a stranglehold on this area
(29:08):
for a very long time. And they've been able to
dictate a lot of the water policy, which is why
agriculture is such a huge part of water consumption in
this area.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
Yeah, for sure. And you know, like you mentioned earlier
that the snow melt not happening. There's been such a
drop that basically we're in danger of what's called the
deadpool state, which is water flowing into a dam but
not enough water coming in to flow back out. So
they're basically saying that what is this Lake Powell later
(29:42):
this year, I guess this is twenty twenty six, the
water level might drop so low that it's not even
going to spend those turbines anymore. And that means you're
not generating hydropower at Glenn Canyon Dam anymore. And that's
a big, big problem.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
And then the next problem beneath that is that the
water level isn't even high enough to make it through
the pen stocks, which basically are like, we're not even
messing with the turbines anymore, we're just trying to get
water out of the reservoir down to the lower basin states.
If the water levels go below those penstocks, that means
the water's not going to make it downstream, which means
(30:16):
that all of those areas have been choked off from
their source of water, which is really really bad, like
catastrophic level bad. The electricity is bad enough, but the
water is just will that would do it for those.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
Areas, Yeah, for sure. So they're trying to figure this
out obviously, because this is a big problem as the
River Compact is coming due for reupping or renegotiating or whatever.
In twenty twenty four, the basin states got together and
they were like, all right, here's our proposals for twenty
twenty six to deal with what we're dealing with now
(30:52):
and also to try and safeguard against the future and
do it maybe in a more fair way. And the
lower basin approach, California, Nevada, and Arizona. They said, all right,
let's have conservation measures that are triggered based on average
capacities of everything combined, like not just our portion, and
we all share these reductions together as well, and we're
(31:16):
committing to being, you know, a part of that.
Speaker 2 (31:19):
Yes, And the upper Basin said, nah, we're not going
to go along with that. Is in fact, we're not
going to commit to any cuts whatsoever because frankly, you
guys have been using all the water up to this time,
and we are sick of it. We're not going to
do anything what it seems like, right, yeah, and so yeah,
they're like California, Arizona. They're like Nevada, You're okay, sorry,
(31:41):
you're wrapped up in this. But California and Arizona have
been using way more water than was their share, and
so now we have this conflict between the lower basin
approach and the Upper Basin approach and the stalemate. It
keeps getting kicked down the road, and they just blew
past their most recent deadline of February thirteenth, twenty twenty six. Yeah,
(32:02):
which was a Friday the thirteenth, which is also my
anniversary too. Oh yeah, yeah, but this was a bat
late anniversary. Thank you very much. But as far as
the basin states were concerned, it was not a happy
Friday the thirteenth.
Speaker 1 (32:16):
No, it wasn't. How long you've been married, by.
Speaker 2 (32:18):
The way, let's see, fourteen years now.
Speaker 1 (32:22):
That's Josh Mathough. What would you me say?
Speaker 2 (32:25):
She would say, that's close at fourteenth fourteen.
Speaker 1 (32:28):
That's nice, nice work.
Speaker 2 (32:29):
Yeah, thank you. I didn't have to come up with
a percentage or anything right.
Speaker 1 (32:33):
Right or big max. So in January of this year,
I mean that was February. They blew past the deadline.
But the Feds basically said in January of this year, like, hey,
like this is getting tiresome and basically sort of like
the parents walking in the room and saying, Hey, if
you guys don't get a framework together yourselves and work together,
(32:57):
we're going to do it for you. And we know
nobody wants that. They released a sixteen hundred page report
with options basically saying, hey, this is we're going to
do this for you if you don't work it out.
Speaker 2 (33:09):
Yeah, and remember that prior appropriation doctrine. Yeah, that's essentially
what will be enforced. That's like the basic option that
the federal government would probably choose if the states don't
come up with their own plan. Yeah, And that means
Arizona is toast and California is going to be just
(33:30):
fine because California has the oldest projects and I think
or Arizona has some of the youngest projects. That's that. Yeah,
I don't know what's going to happen with that. Again,
they just blew past their deadline. I saw that California
is trying to figure out how to do desalination projects. No, yeah,
(33:53):
which would help a lot of stuff, but that's I mean,
they're going to have to build I think forty billion
dollars worth of infrastructure to do it, which I don't
think they have that in their pockets right now.
Speaker 1 (34:03):
Didn't we do a desalination episode like fifteen sixteen years ago?
Speaker 2 (34:09):
I don't know if it was that long ago, but
we definitely did one. It was about desalination saving the
world basically because of the impending water crisis.
Speaker 1 (34:17):
It feels like a long time ago.
Speaker 2 (34:19):
It does that COVID It really messed time up, didn't it.
Speaker 1 (34:23):
Yeah, also just lots of time passing that too, that
really messed up time.
Speaker 2 (34:29):
You got anything else from a man?
Speaker 1 (34:31):
I got nothing else. Sytems a little shorter, but I
hope we cleared it up some for the basin states,
get tracked together. Everybody, you gotta work together. The Feds
are gonna step in and slap your wrist.
Speaker 2 (34:39):
There you go. Well, since Chuck talked about Fed slapping wrists,
of course it's time for a listener mail.
Speaker 1 (34:48):
Yeah, this one goes back. I don't know if we
read something like this or not. But I know what,
during the Julia Child episode, we couldn't think of the
name of the pants, the short pants. A lot of
people said cigarette pants. You said cool lotts.
Speaker 2 (35:01):
Oh yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:03):
The word I think I might have been looking for,
Vicky points out, was probably caprice. Oh yeah, for clam
digger pants.
Speaker 2 (35:10):
Sure, I've heard that too.
Speaker 1 (35:12):
That's what Vicky says. And funny story, guys, I heard
about capriepants on TV. When Mary Tyler Moore was selected
as Rob's wife and The Dick Van Dyke Show, she
specifically didn't want to be wearing pearls and a petticoat
and a dress like Missus Cleaver and Donna Reid, so
producers finally gave in and said, all right, you can
wear those capri pants, which he really had to fight for.
But the pants were considered risque at the time, and
(35:35):
they said that she could never be filmed from the
backside wearing those pants.
Speaker 2 (35:39):
Huh. I've long thought, wow, you never see Mary Tyler
Moore's bottom in the Dick Van Dyke Show.
Speaker 1 (35:46):
Now I know why, And that's from Vicky Reid.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
She I've always thought she dressed so adorably in that. Yeah,
adorable in that show. What a great show too.
Speaker 1 (35:56):
Mary Tyler Moore is a treasure. She is?
Speaker 2 (36:00):
Who is that? Vicky?
Speaker 1 (36:01):
Vicky read?
Speaker 2 (36:02):
Thanks a lot, Vicky Read. We appreciate you. Capri pants, clamdiggers,
whatever you call them, they're pants and they're shorter than normal.
If you want to be like Vicky and get in
touch with us and help us out. We love being
helped out. You can send it via email to stuff
podcast at iHeartRadio dot com. Stuff you Should Know is
(36:26):
a production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 1 (36:28):
For more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Welcome to Stuff you should know, a production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's
Chuck and Jerry's here too. We're just a few river
rats hanging out thinking about rivers and such.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
That's right. If you live in Wyoming, Colorado, Utah, Nevada,
New Mexico, Arizona, or California, this one's This one's for you.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Yeah. Or if you're interested in water supply, this one's
for you as well. If you like really difficult interstate treaties,
I think you'll like this one as well.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
There's one person out there that's like, oh my god, guys, finally,
So yes.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
We're talking about the Colorado River. We're talking about the
compact of water sharing among those states, the basin states
they call them, which is a pretty cool name of
sharing the water that comes out of the Colorado River,
which is about almost a fifteen hundred mile long river
that winds through the southwestern US all the way into Mexico,
(01:12):
and it helps feed all of those states, most of
which should not have the populations that they have and
wouldn't otherwise were it not for their ability to tap
into the water from the Colorado.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
That's right. And by the way, I remembered halfway through
your opening salvo that this was a listener suggestion. So
I looked at up real quick, and this is from
George Bouncin.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
Oh nice, Thanks a lot, George. This is a good idea.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
Yeah, I agreed. So I bet George lives in one
of those states. But like you said, the Colorado River
very important. It provides I think Julia helped us with this,
and it supports roughly ten percent of Americans and one
point for trillion dollars economically. So it is a very
very important river system that starts there in the Rocky
(02:07):
Mountains and then flows generally southwest, and there are all
sorts of tributaries and things that feed into it. As
we'll see, that has become a bone of contention here
and there, but a lot of it is there are
bones of contention because this river compact that they forged
in nineteen twenty two to say, hey, how are you
(02:27):
going to divide this water up? Everybody wants to use
this stuff. It's it's up now this year, right in
twenty twenty six. Yeah, and they're trying to figure out,
you know, what to do about the next twenty years,
and there's especially between California and Arizona. But a lot
of the states have bones of contention with one another
(02:48):
on how this water is used.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
Yeah, because there's almost a self defeating pickle that they've
been in just from sharing this. By having access to
that water, they've been able to boom like cities like
Las Vegas, Los Angeles, San Diego, Phoenix, Tucson. The list
just goes on. They are able to have these huge
(03:12):
populations in golf courses, in industry, and agriculture in the
Imperial Valley in California because of the Colorado River. So
that's attracted more and more people, which means you need
more and more water. So those bones of contention have
grown over the years. And now that it's one hundred
plus years old, Yeah, there's an issue. There's a problem
(03:32):
with this that we're going to see because this river
is like I can't take any more.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
Yeah. Well yeah, and we're going to get into that
stuff too, because there's not as much water as they
thought there would be and it seems like it's getting
it's not coming back to the boom days for reasons
that we're going to talk about. But one thing we
should talk about is why water is so important out there,
And obviously one of the reasons is because there's not
(04:01):
much of it. Highs out in the desert can reach
over one hundred and twenty five degrees with great regularity
annual rainfall. This is near the Hoover Dam, and you know,
we did a great episode I think on the Hoover Dam.
Between the Vata and Arizona. Annual rainfall there is about
four inches. So the Colorado River is the thing. It's
(04:21):
the most key thing that we have at our disposal
to keep things alive.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
Yeah. It's mother, lifeblood, life giver, that's what they call
it there. Yeah, so let's talk about the Hoover Dam.
Not just the Hoover Dam that one gets all of
the credit. There's also the Imperial Dam too. Yeah, that
diverts water to the All American Canal, which is a
very smart I think name, because it's one of those
(04:46):
things where if you dispute the water going there, they
could be like, well, you don't like the All American Canal?
Do you hate America?
Speaker 1 (04:54):
Yeah? Sure.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
So there's the Boulder Dam, now, the Hoover Dam and
the Imperial Dam. In both of those helped bank water
for what we know as the lower basin states and
the upper basin states are the ones responsible for essentially
filling those water banks.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
That's right. So back when this, you know, in nineteen
twenty two, when this thing was first enacted and ratified, well,
I guess it was ratified a little more slowly over time,
as we'll see, but California and Arizona were developing much
more so than places like you know, Colorado and Wyoming.
(05:33):
So as far as the upper and the lower basin,
the lower basin areas were really exploding at the time.
If you were closer to those headwaters, you didn't have
those dams. There weren't opportunities to sort of divert that
water to save up for the future maybe, So all
of that water was going downstream where they were collecting
it and using it, which is sort of where the
(05:56):
animosity began.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
I think, yeah, and the upstream states and grew that
we're using that water. We're like, well, wait a minute,
we want water too, Like what's going to happen? We
need something. We need somebody to come in and figure
out like how we can get our water too. And
there was a supreme Court decision that really scared the
upper states, the upstream states, which was the doctrine of
(06:20):
prior appropriation, which was applied to water rights. And the
prior appropriation basically means if you were the first one
to start using something from that point on, you have seniority.
So if you ever come up against the conflict between
you and somebody else, if you're the senior one, you
automatically get preference. And California and Arizona have been using
(06:42):
this water through water projects before, say like Colorado or
Wyoming or Utah, and that meant that they were going
to get the short end of the stick no matter what,
just because California and Arizona had these booming populations.
Speaker 1 (06:57):
Yeah, for sure. And you know, to be clear, that
Supreme decision was basically that that first in time, first
and right applied across the state lines.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
So yeah, yeah, good point.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
You're sharing this river, but they were using it, so like,
sorry that you can't now take that away from them essentially,
But like you said, Colorado and Wyoming and other states
in New Mexico were like, well, we want to grow
one day and do these big projects too. We're just
not there yet. It's nineteen twenty two, give us a break.
So they got together to negotiate this thing, the Colorado
River Compact in Santa Fe, New Mexico, in November of
(07:31):
nineteen twenty two. Nice nuts and bolts. Wise, it's kind
of cool. It's the first time more than three US
states divided water among themselves. And we're going to talk
a little bit more about the law of the River
because it's got a lot of like tendrils to it.
But that established what would evolve over time as what's
called the law of the River.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
Yeah, for sure. So here comes Herbert Hoover into our story.
If you were waiting for Hoover to show up, by god,
here he is president. No, he was the Secretary of
Commerce under President Warren G. Harding, but he did such
a good job he eventually became president and they renamed
the Boulder Dam the Hoover damn thanks to Herbert, Yeah, right,
(08:11):
or because of Herbert. So he steps in and says, hey, guys,
we need to figure out what's going on here. We
need to figure out how to basically let these water
thirsty states do their projects, because these are great projects.
We can all agree, but at the same time, we
need to make sure that these upstream groups when they
want to do their own projects, if they aren't do,
(08:33):
they'll have the water that they need. But we want
development throughout the system. That's the key, right. And most
people don't know what Herbert Hoover sounds like, but that
was an exact impersonation of what he sounded like in
the way he talked.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
Yeah. Yeah, but here's the deal. He was like, you know,
let's not divide it up by states. Let's not apportion
it state by state, because that just makes too much sense.
He said, Let's split it. Split up the Colorado River
into two equal parts, and a lot equal amounts to
each half. So you got the upper basin and your
(09:08):
lower basin allotments and we'll talk about numbers here in
a second, sure, but within those, then you distribute by state,
like you've got the upper portion splitting it between I
guess everything. But California and Arizona, right, aren't they the
only two in the lower basin?
Speaker 2 (09:26):
No, Nevada, I think is as well.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
Oh, Nevada, that's right. Okay.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
So the one proposal that they initially came up with,
though kind of one of the key early things was
they promised the lower basin, all right, you're going to
get some extra water here because you've already got these projects.
You're kind of grandfathered in because you've got these projects
and developments underway, so you're going to get some extra water.
And nobody really liked it. The lower Basin didn't even
(09:53):
like this idea to begin with.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
No, Julia helped us with this, and she turned up
a quote from one of the men who was involved
in this compact in nineteen twenty two. He was the
one from the representative from New Mexico. He said, I
will register my vote as a yes, but I do
it only because to my mind it is the least
objectionable of the attempts that have been made to frame
the idea expressed in it, and not because I approve it.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
Yeah, he held his nose and voted yes.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
Yeah, And he apparently was not the only one who
did that. So they met twenty seven times. Yeah, they
finally signed the Colorado River Compact. And another great Hoover
quote is that this was a problem of more extreme
complexity than will ever be appreciated by the outside world.
And just after researching this for a little bit, I
(10:43):
kind of understand where he's coming from, the amount of
stuff that you would have to take into consideration to
do this even remotely fairly. Yeah, your eye on development
is just I can't imagine keeping all that stuff together
and coming up with it, let alone coming up with
one that you could get seven different states to finally
(11:05):
sign on.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
There's no way. I mean, they all signed on, but
like he said, no one really thought it was super fair.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
Right.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
So the compact, like I said, divided things up into
the upper and the lower basin. And that divide actually
has a place, like a physical place, which is Lee
Ferry l.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
E E f E r r Y, not Lee Perry, not.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
Lee scratch Perry. That is at the border where the
river passes from the upper watershed to the lower watershed,
And that is where there's really unique place, quite frankly,
where all the tributaries upstream come together in this one
beautiful single stream before splitting back up again to other
branches on the other side. So they looked at that
and said, hey, Lee Faery, looks like probably a pretty
(11:48):
good spot to divide this into Colorado, Wyoming, New Mexico,
and Utah. And then like Joshua, one day say, Arizona, California,
and don't forget Nevada.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
Chuck for sure. So yeah, it's also just for you
Grand Canyon fans. It's not the same Lee's Ferry. This
is lee Faery and it's nowhere near it.
Speaker 1 (12:10):
I think if you're a Grand Canyon fan, you got
to know that by now.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
You'd hope. So, but what if you're new to being
a fan of the Grand Canyon. You know you don't
want to and I don't want to set them up
to make fools of themselves around the campfire.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
So they this is one of the problems. And we're
going to talk about this later too, but they did
a little bit of research on waterflow because they had
to figure out, like, all right, how much water is
that even And what they measured was sixteen point four
million acre feet, splitting that up into almost fifty percent
of each seven point five million acre feet per basin
(12:46):
in perpetuity, with the rest leftover for Mexico. And we're
going to talk about that, but just so you know,
a water a one acre foot of water is enough
water to submerge an acre of land to the depth
of one foot.
Speaker 2 (13:01):
I came up with that one.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
I knew I wasn't gonna have to make the Joe.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
I knew that. You knew I was gonna make that joke.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
You can't read that without thinking, what Josh, How Josh
waters is lawned.
Speaker 2 (13:13):
That's how I would farm too. I would just submerge
the acres of land in the depth of a foot
and be like, Wow, I'm done with the irrigating for
the year.
Speaker 1 (13:20):
That's right, here's your rice and crayberries. So an acre
of land at the depth of one foot or three
hundred and twenty eight hundred and fifty one gallons of water.
So they measured sixteen point four million acre feet of
that and split it in half, with the rest going
to Mexico.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
Yeah. Mexico is like, hey, what about us, And they're like,
you get one point five million acre feet just from
us for friends. As friends, Mexico, we love you guys,
and they're like, oh, we love you back. So I
think they split Mexico's allotment between the upper and the
lower basin equally.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
Right. There was also another group of stakeholders that kept
getting overlooked and there's still overlooked to some degree, and
that are the Native American tribes whose reservations draw water
from the Colorado River, and the only appearance they made
in the compact was nothing in this compact shall be
construed as affecting the obligations of the United States of
(14:13):
America two Indian tribes.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
What does that mean?
Speaker 2 (14:17):
It means that the Indian tribes are going to have
to fend for themselves in court if they want any
of this water. And apparently every time they did, the states,
the seven Basin states, at least some of them would
lobby behind the scenes, use their clout to try to
get the Native Americans to get them denied their access
(14:37):
to the water. Of course it is I think there
are thirty tribes that have a claim on it, and
right now I think twenty three are legally drawing water
from the Colorado to fulfill their needs. But that means
that seven have not had a chance to in over
one hundred years.
Speaker 1 (14:56):
That's right. So as far as how this actually works,
over a ten year period, the upper basin has to
deliver at least seventy five million acre feet of water
to the lower basin, and they measure it there at
leaf aerry. That's like, that's why the dividing point is
say they're actually measure this water, and the upper basin
(15:17):
can store whatever they have left over after they've delivered
that to the lower basin and their portion to Mexico.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
And then one other thing you kind of already mentioned
it those projects that were already underway were really close
to being developed. Yeah, they were allotted extra water until
I think Lake Mead reached five million acre feet the reservoir.
So yeah, after that it was like, nope, you get
(15:45):
your water from the same allotment as everybody else.
Speaker 1 (15:48):
That's right. And once those projects are done, like for
all new projects, if you're in the lower basin, you
got to start using your reserve or your alitment rather.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
Yeah, I think that fan of complex interstate treaty is
really happy right now.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
I imagine, so you want to take a break, then yeah,
let's do it.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
Okay, we're taking a break. So you can imagine that
(16:35):
there was a lot of problems once they came up
with this proposed plan to get everybody on board, and
in fact, Arizona didn't sign on until nineteen forty four,
like a couple decades later. Yeah, and the other six
were like, okay, we need to just rewrite this a
little bit so this can proceed forward without Arizona. And
I guess Arizona and California have always had this stand off,
(16:59):
this angry kind of tiff a row something like that.
Over water rights in California typically wins that one.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
Yeah, what I couldn't find out is what did they
do in the meantime?
Speaker 2 (17:13):
I guess they just took as much water as they wanted.
Speaker 1 (17:16):
Okay, it's not like they said, that's my guess. Yeah,
all right, That's the one thing I couldn't quite find.
Speaker 2 (17:22):
Because I mean, they wouldn't go like twenty years without
what They'd be like, Wow, we're just gonna go without water?
I would think not. I would guess they'd just take
whatever they wanted. What I don't understand then is if
they did that, why did they finally sign on if
they had unlimited water? You know?
Speaker 1 (17:37):
Yeah, that listener who is really into the river projects
they're going to write and I'm.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
Sure, yeah, we need to hear from them.
Speaker 1 (17:44):
All right, So now I promise talk the law of
the river. That is the more complex set of laws
and compacts in court decisions and contracts and all these
guidelines and stuff that have been issued over the years.
It's all together called the Law of the River, but
the color Rudder River Compact is sort of the spine
of this. Yeah, but we do have to mention these
(18:05):
because a lot of them have popped up over the years.
There was the Boulder Canyon Project Act, which we previously
mentioned in nineteen twenty eight that officially ratified the River Compact.
But that's where the Hoover Dam came from. Boulder Dam
at the time, and that all American Canal And that's
when they officially apportioned everything out within that seven point
(18:26):
five million for each Arizona got for the lower basin,
that is, Arizona got two point eight million, California got
four point four, Nevada got point three million. Yeah, and
the upper basin went with a percentage, right.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
Yes, I think Colorado got the most at fifty one percent,
in Utah twenty three, New Mexico eleven, and Wyoming fourteen.
Right right, So that was that's how they finally got
it a portioned that upper basin. That wasn't until nineteen
forty eight when they finally divided it all up.
Speaker 1 (18:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
And one reason that that could wait is because even
still today, those upper basin states use way less than
their allotment of water. I think California uses more water
than all of the upper basin states combined, even though
the allotment is different. Yeah, and I think that the
upper basin states have basically had to bow to the
(19:22):
idea of progress and just let the lower basin states
use more than their allotment of water.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
Yeah, that's right. There was another and like you said,
that was nineteen forty eight for the Upper Compact. Nineteen
sixty three comes along. You have Arizona v. California, where
the decision was handed out. They were basically like, what
do we do with the surplus water in the lower basin,
And this decision said California Arizona split it at fifty
(19:48):
to fifty. But also these five Native American reservations and
some wildlife refuges and recreational areas, like they get some
water too.
Speaker 2 (19:59):
Yeah. There's also you kind of mentioned how tributaries can
become its own bone of contention or point of contention.
I guess California was using tributary water before it got
to the Colorado River, because, like you said, all those
tributaries branched together and come together at Lee Ferry and
(20:20):
then brant out again. I guess California is just tapping
into one like do do do don't mind us. Yeah,
we're just taking upper basin water from one of the tributaries.
And the court was like, that's fine, that doesn't count
as Colorado River apportionment.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
Yeah, that was nineteen sixty four, right with that decree.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
Yeah, in Arizona one California.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
There was the Colorado River Basin Project Act in nineteen
sixty eight that basically just green lit a bunch of
projects on both sides, you know, both basins, upper and lower.
But the key part of this one, I think was
it said, all right, if there are any overcap reserve
during water shortages, California gets the rights to those.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
Yeah, because they had the earliest projects, so they had
that first in first right thing. Also, that act created
the Central Arizona Project, which brought water to Phoenix and Tucson,
and the population of Arizona doubled since nineteen ninety three
when the Central Arizona Project was finally complained. Doubled because
(21:23):
of the water that was diverted to Arizona from the
Colorado River.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
Yeah. I mean it's gorgeous out there. I lived out there.
People always loved Arizona, but they were thirsty, so this
really helped out.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
Yeah, for sure, it gets kind of dry out there.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
Yeah. I lived in Yuma, and you know that's where well,
we'll see Yuma plays a part, huge part. Surprise pop
up appearance by Yuma coming up everybody.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
Yep, let's see. There's also review mandated reviews every five years.
The Department of the Interior was directed to take over
managing this thing. And then in nineteen seventy three, thanks
to the Knicks Administration of all People, the Endangered Species
Act basically said you need to prioritize environmental protection over
(22:07):
development projects when they conflict, which wow, like is that
still in force?
Speaker 1 (22:15):
Yeah? Probably not. One thing they decided to do in
nineteen seventy four was give Mexico better water. So the
Colorado River Basin Salinity Control Act said, all right, let's
get some salinity control going over the water that we're
sending down to Mexico, so you know, they need good
water down there.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
And then along came a drought, a drought that lasted
from the year two thousand. In the year two thousand
to twenty twenty three, and by two thousand and seven,
the basin states were like, hey, hey, the river's not
flowing quite as much as it used to. So they
got together and they basically like, we need to coordinate
(22:59):
these discharges from Lake Mead and Lake Powell down to
the lower basin states because these allotments were not the
river's not keeping up with the allotments anymore. We need
to rethink this. And they started to really take notice
of this change that the river was undergoing starting in
two thousand and seven, and since then it's just gotten
(23:21):
worse and worse and become more and more critical.
Speaker 1 (23:24):
Yeah, for sure. That led to twenty nineteen with a
drought Contingency Plan, which is basically just like, hey, we
all need to work together with conservation here because this
drought is murdering us.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
Yeah. That meeting was like when they cut to the
control tower and airplane and everybody's just losing their minds. Yeah,
that's what that meeting looks.
Speaker 1 (23:46):
Yeah for sure, Chuck, I feel like.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
We've reached another great place for a break. What say
you about taking a break?
Speaker 1 (23:55):
Let's do it all right, So we're back. We mentioned,
(24:21):
you know, that long drought and conservation efforts that were
happening and are happening, but aren't nearly enough, and we
need to talk about some of the reasons why it's
not enough and what's going on out there. And one
of the problems is that you know, I mentioned early
on when they calculated the flow of the river at
sixteen point four million acre feet per year, this was
(24:45):
one hydrology study that was done in Yuma, Arizona. Of
all cases up, it's very strange they went down to Yuma.
It was based on a single set of measurement measurements.
This is if you don't know where Yuma is, it's
hundreds of min downstream from Lee F. Ferry.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
Some people are like, oh, oh, okay.
Speaker 1 (25:04):
Yeah, So it didn't make a lot of sense to
do right there, and much less just do one. So
they had another available study. Even at the time, there
was a survey from a hydrologists named Eugene Clyde LaRue
who hiked hundreds of miles all up and down the
Colorado River taking measurements all over the place. Yeah, and
(25:27):
that had about a million and a half gallons less.
Speaker 2 (25:32):
Per year acre feet even, And.
Speaker 1 (25:35):
They said let's go with that other one because sixteen
point four million is a higher number, and we think
that's just the one we should go with. And that
was a big mistake.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
That's ultimately what they did. I saw that there was
a total that LaRue study was widely available. People knew
about it, and they were like, nah, that was That
means that the agreement overstretched the water supply from the
Colorado River. From the very first day. It was never
able to supply the all of the water that was
(26:05):
being divided among the states.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
That was a huge, huge.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
Problem from the outset right. And in fact, scientists have
estimated that the basin states have been taking about a
million acre feet per year over what the river can
supply for decades, and right now they think that the
river's producing about thirteen million acre feet per year. So
(26:32):
even if they had gone with LaRue's estimate a fifteen
million acre feet, it would be producing less now. And
not all of it is because more water is being
drawn from it than it can provide. And a lot
of that instead has to do with the fact that
seventy percent of the Colorado River's water flow comes from
(26:52):
snow melt from the rockies. And I don't know what
to tell you if you don't believe in climate change.
But the Rockies ain't been getting nearly as much snow
every year year in general as it used to, and
as a result, the Colorado River is shrunk to eighty
percent of its flow compared to I think the nineteen nineties.
Speaker 1 (27:12):
Yeah, so that's a big problem. Another problem is how
this water is being used and how it's always been used.
If you're talking residential use, commercial use, industrial use, it's
only about twenty to twenty five percent of the Colorado River.
Speaker 2 (27:26):
Yeah, get this.
Speaker 1 (27:27):
The rest of that is agriculture, and specifically agriculture to
mainly grow alfalfa and hay to feed cattle. And if
you're wondering why in the world did anyone ever decide
to raise cattle out in the middle of the desert,
it's because of the eighteen seventy seven Desert Land Act.
(27:50):
I think you can walk us through that. But Julia
found a quote though from a guy from a vox
Media article named Kenny Terrella. He said, if policymakers and
agricultural researchers were to start our food system from scratch,
they probably wouldn't put a bunch of cows in the
middle of a desert.
Speaker 2 (28:05):
Yeah, and there's there's a lot of reasons for that.
They suck up a lot of water because that half
of that water going to just grow. Hey, that doesn't
include all the water the cattle drink themselves. Their hoofs
compact the arid soil more so that soil is less
able to hold moisture when it does get water. And yeah,
the reason that it happened is that that Desert Land Act,
(28:26):
like you said, that was essentially created to send people
out to improve the desert, go figure out good stuff
to develop the desert. And the idea in and of
itself was good. You could just go up and be like,
I want some land please, and they would give you
some land and you would go farm it. There were
two keys. One you didn't have to live there, and
(28:47):
two corporations got a bunch of people to go in
and act as their agents dummies essentially, and get the
land that they then turned around and sold to the
corporation for next to nothing. The corporation put huge amounts
of land together and started raising cattle on it. So
corporations cattle corporations have had a stranglehold on this area
(29:08):
for a very long time. And they've been able to
dictate a lot of the water policy, which is why
agriculture is such a huge part of water consumption in
this area.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
Yeah, for sure. And you know, like you mentioned earlier
that the snow melt not happening. There's been such a
drop that basically we're in danger of what's called the
deadpool state, which is water flowing into a dam but
not enough water coming in to flow back out. So
they're basically saying that what is this Lake Powell later
(29:42):
this year, I guess this is twenty twenty six, the
water level might drop so low that it's not even
going to spend those turbines anymore. And that means you're
not generating hydropower at Glenn Canyon Dam anymore. And that's
a big, big problem.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
And then the next problem beneath that is that the
water level isn't even high enough to make it through
the pen stocks, which basically are like, we're not even
messing with the turbines anymore, we're just trying to get
water out of the reservoir down to the lower basin states.
If the water levels go below those penstocks, that means
the water's not going to make it downstream, which means
(30:16):
that all of those areas have been choked off from
their source of water, which is really really bad, like
catastrophic level bad. The electricity is bad enough, but the
water is just will that would do it for those.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
Areas, Yeah, for sure. So they're trying to figure this
out obviously, because this is a big problem as the
River Compact is coming due for reupping or renegotiating or whatever.
In twenty twenty four, the basin states got together and
they were like, all right, here's our proposals for twenty
twenty six to deal with what we're dealing with now
(30:52):
and also to try and safeguard against the future and
do it maybe in a more fair way. And the
lower basin approach, California, Nevada, and Arizona. They said, all right,
let's have conservation measures that are triggered based on average
capacities of everything combined, like not just our portion, and
we all share these reductions together as well, and we're
(31:16):
committing to being, you know, a part of that.
Speaker 2 (31:19):
Yes, And the upper Basin said, nah, we're not going
to go along with that. Is in fact, we're not
going to commit to any cuts whatsoever because frankly, you
guys have been using all the water up to this time,
and we are sick of it. We're not going to
do anything what it seems like, right, yeah, and so yeah,
they're like California, Arizona. They're like Nevada, You're okay, sorry,
(31:41):
you're wrapped up in this. But California and Arizona have
been using way more water than was their share, and
so now we have this conflict between the lower basin
approach and the Upper Basin approach and the stalemate. It
keeps getting kicked down the road, and they just blew
past their most recent deadline of February thirteenth, twenty twenty six. Yeah,
(32:02):
which was a Friday the thirteenth, which is also my
anniversary too. Oh yeah, yeah, but this was a bat
late anniversary. Thank you very much. But as far as
the basin states were concerned, it was not a happy
Friday the thirteenth.
Speaker 1 (32:16):
No, it wasn't. How long you've been married, by.
Speaker 2 (32:18):
The way, let's see, fourteen years now.
Speaker 1 (32:22):
That's Josh Mathough. What would you me say?
Speaker 2 (32:25):
She would say, that's close at fourteenth fourteen.
Speaker 1 (32:28):
That's nice, nice work.
Speaker 2 (32:29):
Yeah, thank you. I didn't have to come up with
a percentage or anything right.
Speaker 1 (32:33):
Right or big max. So in January of this year,
I mean that was February. They blew past the deadline.
But the Feds basically said in January of this year, like, hey,
like this is getting tiresome and basically sort of like
the parents walking in the room and saying, Hey, if
you guys don't get a framework together yourselves and work together,
(32:57):
we're going to do it for you. And we know
nobody wants that. They released a sixteen hundred page report
with options basically saying, hey, this is we're going to
do this for you if you don't work it out.
Speaker 2 (33:09):
Yeah, and remember that prior appropriation doctrine. Yeah, that's essentially
what will be enforced. That's like the basic option that
the federal government would probably choose if the states don't
come up with their own plan. Yeah, And that means
Arizona is toast and California is going to be just
(33:30):
fine because California has the oldest projects and I think
or Arizona has some of the youngest projects. That's that. Yeah,
I don't know what's going to happen with that. Again,
they just blew past their deadline. I saw that California
is trying to figure out how to do desalination projects. No, yeah,
(33:53):
which would help a lot of stuff, but that's I mean,
they're going to have to build I think forty billion
dollars worth of infrastructure to do it, which I don't
think they have that in their pockets right now.
Speaker 1 (34:03):
Didn't we do a desalination episode like fifteen sixteen years ago?
Speaker 2 (34:09):
I don't know if it was that long ago, but
we definitely did one. It was about desalination saving the
world basically because of the impending water crisis.
Speaker 1 (34:17):
It feels like a long time ago.
Speaker 2 (34:19):
It does that COVID It really messed time up, didn't it.
Speaker 1 (34:23):
Yeah, also just lots of time passing that too, that
really messed up time.
Speaker 2 (34:29):
You got anything else from a man?
Speaker 1 (34:31):
I got nothing else. Sytems a little shorter, but I
hope we cleared it up some for the basin states,
get tracked together. Everybody, you gotta work together. The Feds
are gonna step in and slap your wrist.
Speaker 2 (34:39):
There you go. Well, since Chuck talked about Fed slapping wrists,
of course it's time for a listener mail.
Speaker 1 (34:48):
Yeah, this one goes back. I don't know if we
read something like this or not. But I know what,
during the Julia Child episode, we couldn't think of the
name of the pants, the short pants. A lot of
people said cigarette pants. You said cool lotts.
Speaker 2 (35:01):
Oh yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:03):
The word I think I might have been looking for,
Vicky points out, was probably caprice. Oh yeah, for clam
digger pants.
Speaker 2 (35:10):
Sure, I've heard that too.
Speaker 1 (35:12):
That's what Vicky says. And funny story, guys, I heard
about capriepants on TV. When Mary Tyler Moore was selected
as Rob's wife and The Dick Van Dyke Show, she
specifically didn't want to be wearing pearls and a petticoat
and a dress like Missus Cleaver and Donna Reid, so
producers finally gave in and said, all right, you can
wear those capri pants, which he really had to fight for.
But the pants were considered risque at the time, and
(35:35):
they said that she could never be filmed from the
backside wearing those pants.
Speaker 2 (35:39):
Huh. I've long thought, wow, you never see Mary Tyler
Moore's bottom in the Dick Van Dyke Show.
Speaker 1 (35:46):
Now I know why, And that's from Vicky Reid.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
She I've always thought she dressed so adorably in that. Yeah,
adorable in that show. What a great show too.
Speaker 1 (35:56):
Mary Tyler Moore is a treasure. She is?
Speaker 2 (36:00):
Who is that? Vicky?
Speaker 1 (36:01):
Vicky read?
Speaker 2 (36:02):
Thanks a lot, Vicky Read. We appreciate you. Capri pants, clamdiggers,
whatever you call them, they're pants and they're shorter than normal.
If you want to be like Vicky and get in
touch with us and help us out. We love being
helped out. You can send it via email to stuff
podcast at iHeartRadio dot com. Stuff you Should Know is
(36:26):
a production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 1 (36:28):
For more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
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