February 24, 2026 • 42 mins
Stanford University was co-founded by Jane Stanford. Not long after she was murdered and it was covered up. We'll probably never know what really happened. Listen in today.
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's
Chuck and Jerry's here too. And this is Stuff you
should know True crime Murder Mystery edition, like in the
purest form in that we do not know who did it? Sorry?
Who done it?
Speaker 3 (00:26):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (00:27):
And we may never know. We probably will never know,
even though we kind of know.
Speaker 3 (00:31):
It seems like, yeah, I don't think we'll ever know.
This was a listener.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
Suggestion, okay, and I actually from a year ago, almost
to the day.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Oh, that's creepy.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
Sometimes we like to do that, you know. Sure, it's like, yeah,
great idea, We'll do it.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
In one year.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Yeah, we're like, great idea.
Speaker 3 (00:52):
So this has been sitting in the kitty for a while.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
This is from Samuel Krohle, and Olivia helped us out,
and that's it's a real banger about the history of
in a way, the history of Stanford University. It really is,
and one of its co founders and her pretty obvious murder.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Yeah, and the Stanfords were very much intertwined with the
early years of Stanford University, because, after all, you can't
spell Stanford without Stanford. And the reason that this is
a murder mystery is because one of the Stanfords dies mysteriously.
We're not going to say who. You'll figure it out
towards the end, and I say, we jump in and
(01:34):
just start talking about Jane Stanford, who is for the
most part the star of our show.
Speaker 3 (01:40):
That's right, because she was murdered.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
Man, that was the big twist.
Speaker 3 (01:47):
Did you not hear me or are you just is
this all a bit?
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Uh? It's a bit Okay, I didn't hear you, but
it is still a bit. What did you say that
was so pivotal?
Speaker 3 (01:58):
I said that she was murdered, and he said, we're
not going to say he was murdered.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
Right afterward, Oh, I didn't hear you say that. I see, Yeah,
well we'll just edit all this up now.
Speaker 3 (02:07):
We should leave it. So Jane Stanford was.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
You know, she was sort of the prototypical Gilded age
wife at the time, supporting her husband. That was kind
of a job and not kind of it was like
a real job, sort of entertaining, keeping up with like
large residences when you have tons of money, that kind
of thing. But she would go on to be a
(02:32):
she was a very demanding person. It seems like I
want to go on to be a very demanding kind
of lead trustee at Stanford University. And some might even
say a micromanager.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
Oh yeah, I think she definitely fits that mold for sure.
Speaker 3 (02:46):
But as a micromanager, she would just say, I just
want to make sure it's done.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Right, right right. She had some very distinct ideas that
she wanted fulfilled with Stanford, and she had the money
to back it up.
Speaker 3 (02:57):
Basically, yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
But he was born a little background here in upstate
New York in Albany in eighteen twenty eight. One of
seven kids. She was born wealthy. Her parents were shopkeepers,
and she would eventually marry a guy named Leland Stanford.
She was born Jane Lathrop and then would be Jane
Stanford or Jane Lathrope Stanford. He was also from upstate
(03:21):
New York and he was an attorney practicing in Wisconsin.
I keep want to say, Wisconsin, you can.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
Say that's all right. People in Wisconsin don't care.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
Well, we're going to Madison in April. I can't say
that in front of them.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
I think you can. I really think they'll support it.
Speaker 3 (03:37):
They are nice people.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
Yes, pretty much too of herson, except for that one
she was.
Speaker 3 (03:45):
They knew who they are.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
Jane was twenty two at the time, and they were
a part for the beginning of their marriage.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
Though right geographically, yeah, Jane moved back to Albany after
they got married and they were living in Wisconsin. She
wanted to care for her father, which put that just
off to the side. It's not a huge thing, but
she cared for her father until his death. After he died,
(04:12):
she joined her husband, Leland out west. He was a
gold prospector. Well, actually, I don't think he ever got
into prospecting. He was a goods dry goods shop owner
who outfitted prospectors, and he fulfilled like the quintessential Golden
(04:34):
rule of business in a gold brush, don't prospect, sell shovels.
That's exactly what he did.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
Yeah, because you know what, you may not find gold,
but you can always sell a shovel to a gold miner.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
That's precisely right. But I speculate when you can. I
don't know regulate.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
No, I was about to say, Man, if you don't
rhyme that thing, I know, I don't even know who
you are.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
I still didn't do a very good job, but at least.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
No I thought it was pretty good.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
So he made some pretty good money doing that. But
he really really got rich when he became one of
the Big four robber barons that put their money for
it to finance the Central Pacific Railroad in eighteen sixty one,
and all of a sudden, they had this big life
as wealthy people, and he said, well, why not just
(05:22):
get into politics as well?
Speaker 2 (05:24):
Well, the Big Four basically got him into politics to
represent their interests, basically, like they put up some of
their money, but for the most part, they used Leland
Stanford's ron as the governor of California and then later
on as a senator in the United States Senate to
basically lean on the government to get the government to
(05:46):
underwrite the building of the railroad to make connections so
that you could bribe people more easily. Like it was
a so windle. That's how those dudes made that railroad.
They ended up with a monopoly. They seek really bought
the Southern Pacific Railroad, and all of a sudden, Leland
Stanford's the president of that now too, So just to
(06:09):
just kind of like just painted with a big brush
the Stanford's made their money in very questionable ways. So
just just remember that because this is like such a
it's such a great example of American myth making where
some guy just basically fails upward and becomes super super wealthy,
and then you know, very shortly after that he becomes
(06:29):
lionized as like this great heroic builder of America. And
that's just I'm just so sick of that it still
goes on today.
Speaker 3 (06:37):
I mean, haven't most of the Robber Baron's been kind
of kneecapped.
Speaker 2 (06:41):
Uh, yeah, I think so. But I think at least
some of them were legitimately philanthropists. I don't think Leland
Stanford was legitimately a philanthropist. I get the impression. I've
actually seen it written that basically they laundered their ill
gotten gains through the university to leave a prestigious legacy
(07:03):
for themselves instead.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
All right, well, they were smart for the first eighteen
years of their marriage and did not have kids, and
then they ruined that all kind of later in life
for them. When little Leland Junior was born. Jane was
thirty nine at the time, which is especially for the time,
a bit of an advanced stage to give birth certainly,
you know, not without risk. And Leland Senior was, like
(07:29):
you said, he got involved in politics. They also, I mean,
they had their fingers in a lot of pies. They
ran a few wineries, they raised horses. This is just
a little kind of fun side note that Livia dug up.
But yeah, you know the very famous Edward Moybridge his
early motion picture film when he set up twenty four
(07:49):
cameras and showed like a horse running, which a said like, hey,
we can have something called motion pictures and also said, hey,
look that horse has all of its four feet off
the ground.
Speaker 3 (07:59):
At the same time. That was done on their.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
Property, the Palo Alto Stock Farm. So just a fun
little thing, and that's where Stanford University eventually would be.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
Did you ever see the Jordan Peele movie. Nope, yep,
I thought that was a cool little just a little
line yap where the oh I don't remember his name,
but he was also in Get Out to the main Guy. Yeah, yeah,
yeah where he he's his character is descended from the
jockey that rode that horse.
Speaker 3 (08:31):
Yeah. I thought that was cool too, Daniel something right.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
I don't remember. I feel like a total jerk, but.
Speaker 3 (08:37):
Well, you know, you can't remember everything off the dome.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
But it turns out in real life that jockey's name
was Dom do o m m. They think maybe Gilbert Dom.
Speaker 3 (08:48):
So you know his name?
Speaker 2 (08:51):
Yeah, but I looked it up this morning. So all right,
that's it. Smart guy. Here.
Speaker 3 (08:55):
We're glad everybody knows that guy's name.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
Here we go.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
So sadly, Leland Junior would not live very long. He
died at fifteen. He went to Europe with his mom
and it was pretty sad thing, obviously a tragedy for
the family. But a very interesting thing happened at the
funeral when a young woman named Bertha Berner was there
and met Jane. Would later write her a letter and say, Hey,
(09:22):
I think you could use a person like me in
your life. We'll call it personal secretary or whatever, but
basically your right hand person to kind of help you
with everything that you need.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
Yeah, like you said, just the classic Gilded Age wife, right, yeah, okay.
Speaker 3 (09:41):
Along with a little spiritualism thrown in.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
Yeah, that was a big one. And you know that
gets kind of tossed around quite a bit that the Stanfords,
in particular Jane, were really heavy into spiritualism. Well, all
out of people were heavy into spiritualism at this time,
so it was generally looked down upon from the halls
of academia. So in a way it was a little
awkward for the university for their founders to have been
(10:05):
into spiritualism. But it wasn't just completely out of left field.
Speaker 3 (10:10):
No not.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
You know, among especially among the sort of wealthy elites,
they were into that kind of thing.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
And also I mean there was the death of Edward
or the death of Leland Junior was a really huge
turning point. Apparently they were kind of dabbling in it.
But after that she kind of devoted herself to getting
a message from or getting in contact I guess with
Leland Junior again. And she tried for a long time,
and then I think in the end she was she
(10:36):
was dissatisfied. She couldn't find anybody that she considered legitimate
enough to actually do it, even though she believed it
was possible. She found that everyone she came in contact
with was a fraud or huckster.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
So and she's probably right. So Berner gets this job.
You know, people from the outside were like, man, she
really works hard for Jane Stanford, like she doesn't seem
to have any time off. She kind of is run
by Jane Stanford, but they were very close and she
would be with her until the day she died. Put
(11:09):
a pen in that and in fact would get quite
rich from her death. I think she got fifteen grand.
The other household staff got a thousand dollars each in
the will, but Berner got fifteen grand, which is about
half a million today.
Speaker 3 (11:23):
So not too bad, No, not bad at all.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
I Also, I just want to say before we move on,
the actor's name is Daniel Caluja.
Speaker 3 (11:31):
Great.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
So it was Leland Junior's death that actually inspired the
founding of Stanford University.
Speaker 3 (11:38):
There are a couple of stories about how that might
have happened.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
I think Leland took maybe the more acceptable mainstream version,
which is, hey, it came to me in a dream
after my son's death. But there was a medium, maud
Lord Drake, who said, no, that actually happened in a
seance with me. It was a visitation from the afterworld
(12:01):
that I mediated, and he just didn't want to say
that out loud, so he just called it a dream.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
Yeah. Her famous quote was who has two thumbs? And
was the medium who got Leland junior to tell his
parents that he wanted them to found a university, and
she said me.
Speaker 3 (12:15):
Yeah, maud Lord Drake.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
So yeah, you could actually make a case that if
the university was true to form at the time, it's
quite possible that they the Stanford's claimed that it was
from this seance, but the university just basically whitewashed that
over and it became a dream instead. That's right, so, Chuck,
(12:40):
Regardless of how it came about, the Stanfords said that
although they had lost their son, now the children of
California would become their children, and to do that, they
founded Stanford University. For those of you who aren't familiar,
it's one of the most prestigious universities in the world
as far as I know, certainly in the US. Is
(13:00):
the cradle for our current tech explosion, and it's just
a really great university. Its official name is Leland Stanford
Junior University after Leland Stanford Junior. Still today, that's what
it's called. And if you look at the details of
how it was founded and what its mission was when
(13:21):
it was open, it's like the Stanford's definitely did a
good job of opening a public university.
Speaker 1 (13:28):
Yeah, it was pretty unique. Tuition was free first of all,
so that was fairly unique. So it you know, they
led in students that couldn't afford to go to college otherwise. Yeah,
Jane said, I want to make it a co ed school.
There were just a handful of those in the in
the United States at the time.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
And also, I'm doing Sergio, You're what I'm doing, Sergio,
Jane said.
Speaker 3 (13:52):
Oh, I got you.
Speaker 1 (13:54):
The other sort of odd thing was that it was
not associated with a church. It was a Christian university,
but it wasn't like, you know, Jane again was dabbling
in the occult, so she she had sort of loose,
sort of a loose association with particular denominations. So it
was a non denominational Christian school, very much kind of
(14:19):
a liberal arts thing at first. It would later and
in fact, you know, it was part of the friction
between Jane and the eventual president on what kind of
school it would be. She wanted it more liberal arts
and he wanted it more science and research, research based.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
Yeah, but even out of the gate, apparently it was
for preparing students for personal success and direct usefulness in life.
One of the things they did was they created an
extension service for local farmers to find out the latest
agricultural techniques. They accepted high school shop classes as credits.
Like it they were. It wasn't just this. It wasn't
(14:55):
an elite institution meant to create a new generation of
elites like say Harvard was at the time, just at
the time.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
By the way, in my defense, I didn't recognize your
Jane's addiction line because I think that lyric is wrong.
I think it's I'm done with Sergio.
Speaker 2 (15:16):
Well, I think that's the second verse, is it. I
will say anything to make myself right.
Speaker 3 (15:24):
Okay, I just wouldn't. He said. Doing Sergio was like,
who the hell is Sergio?
Speaker 2 (15:29):
She was? That's the point.
Speaker 3 (15:33):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
He treated her like a rag doll.
Speaker 3 (15:35):
Well see now you're getting back on the good side
of history.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
Well die, thanks all right. So Stanford is opening up.
It's October first, eighteen ninety one. Leland gives a great
speech Leland senior, of course, and Jane apparently had a
real banger of a speech written, and she said that
she didn't have the courage to actually do it, but
had she, it would have gone over pretty well, I think,
because in it there was a plea to the students, like, hey,
(16:03):
we're a new school. You know, got to work out
the kinks here. Maybe be a little patient, and hey,
if you're a young male student here, you know you
have girls around, Please treat these young ladies with great deference.
And you might have some kids who don't come from
wealthy backgrounds because it's a free school, and maybe treat
them well as well. So you know, she has this
great letter written and never says it publicly, unfortunately, No.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
But I mean all of these points support our overall point,
like we said, which is they did a pretty good
job of founding a university. Like to mission was great.
The details are pretty.
Speaker 3 (16:36):
Great, better than we've done.
Speaker 2 (16:39):
For sure. Ours is still kind of getting off the ground.
It's just basically a grift right now, right, but hopefully
we'll be able to build it into something real. Yeah,
there is an issue with finding a president. Apparently the
presidents they were looking for were like, I'm good here,
I don't feel like moving out west. I think that
was a big part of it. Like CALIFORNI you was
(17:00):
not like California as it is now. The Stanford University
helped make northern California. What it is now, so it
was still rugged. You know. They couldn't get any just
any Eastern college president to hop from his college out
to Stanford. They finally found a former president of Indiana
(17:20):
University named David Starr Jordan, who was also an ichthyologist
by training and trade. He finally took them up on
the offer.
Speaker 3 (17:30):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
And he also had a lot of pretty gross views
on things, yeah, like super in retrospect. He was into eugenics.
He thought scientific racism was pretty great in that if
you're unfit, like if you're disabled or if you're in prison,
maybe we should.
Speaker 3 (17:50):
Just sterilize you.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
And yeah, women should get educated, but just so they
can be smarter in the home as homemakers.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
He was also like a vocal pacifist, which you're kind
of like, oh, okay, that's not bad. The reason why
he was a pacifist was because he felt war promoted
racial degradation because you send the fittest young men off
to die, that leaves the week to stay home and procreate,
and it degenerates the racer society back home. That was
(18:19):
the reason he was a pacifist in anti war. Yeah,
there was nothing he could do right basically with that
set of views.
Speaker 1 (18:26):
Yeah, I agree, I think we should probably take a break.
Speaker 3 (18:30):
Yeah, set the stage for Stanford's founding. Sure, and we'll
be right back with more on Jane Stanford.
Speaker 2 (18:35):
If you want to know then you're in luck. Just
listen to joshcher Suffus stuffus. No, Okay, So we're whittling
(19:04):
down the people who could possibly have been murdered because
Leland Junior's dead. Now, now Leland Senior dies, there are
very few people left of the Stanfords. Two have been
the murder victim. Now it's just Jane. If that gives
anything away, that's right.
Speaker 1 (19:20):
So Jane was left as the basically the only trustee
of the early university, and she had a situation going
on with the US government where they were like it
was a lawsuit fifteen million bucks and eighteen ninety three dollars,
and the kind of central point of it was they
the government was like, hey, because you or your husband
(19:42):
and your family was part you know, like founded and
has ownership stairs of the Central Pacific Railroad Company, you
should also be responsible for that company's debts and we
helped finance this thing, so like you need to pay
us back for these bonds that we sold, right, and
she actually won that case, which all of a sudd
and you know, they kind of had frozen her assets.
(20:02):
So all of a sudden, these assets were open, and
she gave a huge chunk of eighteen ninety nine dollars
to Stanford and to the tune of ten million bucks.
Speaker 2 (20:11):
Yeah, and we should say to her credit before that.
So this went on for six years. From what I
can tell. During that six year time, the court gave
her a three hundred in today's dollars about a three
hundred and sixty five thousand dollars a month allowance, and
she spent most of it. She gave most of it
to Stanford to run Stanford with. So she wasn't just like, well,
(20:33):
I'm good, good luck Stanford. So and then yeah, after
her assets were on frozen, she was like, hey, how
about ten million dollars? And everyone said, God, this is great,
how wonderful. And she's like, wait a second, there's a
couple of strings I'm going to attach to this. And
they were strings that you would find hard to swallow,
like the kind of strings you would put down your
(20:55):
nose and pull out your mouth at the same time,
back and forth, they were those kind of strings.
Speaker 3 (21:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:00):
I mean she basically had total and complete control of
what happened there, including like how many trustees there would
even be, so she wouldn't get a lot of pushback.
Like I said, she was a micromanager, but not to her.
To her, she just wanted things done right, and she
basically had complete control over the university, said, you know,
(21:23):
like who could get in, who could get out, what
teachers they could hire as staff.
Speaker 3 (21:29):
She said that they capped.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
Even though it was her idea to make it a
co ed school, which is great, she capped it at
five hundred women because she didn't want it. She thought
after that people may think it's a women's college and
that men might stop applying, and that cap was in
place for a while even after she died, until they
got rid of it.
Speaker 2 (21:48):
Yeah. I read that she also had been told rumors
that the men students were being distracted by the women's students,
and Susan B. Anthony wrote her and was just appalled
and was like, what are you doing. She stuck with it.
She was very adamant about that, and like you said,
I don't think it was until the thirties where they
(22:08):
finally were like, we can't just keep it at five hundred,
so they lifted that.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
Yeah, so Star the President did not like this at all.
He didn't like having someone sort of that much in
the business. It seems like they had a pretty friction
riddled relationship. Yeah, especially you know, she tried to get
some of the spiritualism in there. I mentioned before that
she wanted to focus on the liberal arts, but she
(22:34):
also wanted to create an academic chair in psychic psychology.
She also tried to hire this philosopher named William James,
who was a guy who was very much involved in
the paranormal as a visiting professor.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
Yeah. He was also the father of psychology, so he
would have been quite a catch. But I think just
his association with the paranormal made Jordan kind of like
dismiss everything else.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
Yeah, I could see that she finally got this guy
named Julius Gerbel, not Goebels. I don't know if he
dropped that s would or I guess this was pre
World War two so he didn't even know yet, but
he it seems like he was hired basically to kind
of look out over the shoulder of David Starr Jordan,
(23:22):
which he certainly didn't appreciate.
Speaker 2 (23:24):
No, and he reported back to Jane Stanford that Jordan
was basically a patron of the science department and anti
liberal arts departments, and that he was basically running the
university like that. He was going behind Jane Stanford's back
to win that argument over whether it should be a
science or a liberal arts college. And then one thing
(23:45):
that really kind of made huge waves as far as
her micromanagement went. You said that she wanted to have
control over who was hired. She also felt like she
was totally within her rights to say fire that guy
for whatever reason. And there was a professor named Edward A.
Ross who was a social scientist, and he was very
(24:07):
much vocal in his support for William Jennings Bryant, who
was a Democrat, and she did not like that. She
was not in favor of William Jennings Bryant, so she
told Jordan to fire him, and Jordan eventually buckled under pressure,
and this became like a national scandal about whether there
was academic freedom at all at Stanford. It was a
(24:28):
huge deal.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
Well, I think everyone sees where this is headed, and this,
I guess we'll just classify as murder attempt number one
in January of nineteen oh five. That was a servant
that puts some water on her nightstand before Jane Stanford
was going to bed, and there in San Francisco, she
drank some of it, said this doesn't taste quite right.
(24:51):
So she went and gagged herself and made herself throw up,
and then gave it to her secretary and said, here,
you try this. She tried it and was like, yeah,
this doesn't taste right. So they sent it to a
pharmacy and found that, in fact, was poison. It was
it was rat poison, not full Strych nine, but just
sort of over the counter rat poison.
Speaker 2 (25:13):
Yeah, which is bad enough. I mean, it could kill
you for sure. So this was I mean, I can't
imagine that, like if somebody had put rat poison in
your water. So she was like, I'm getting out of here.
I guess after the report came back a few weeks
later that it was rat poison. She went to Hawaii.
I read that she was ultimately on her way to
(25:33):
Japan and that Hawaii was just a stop. I also
read that she was trying to get out of Dodge
and get away from having been poisoned, and so news
of this poisoning started to spread and Jordan, president of Stanford,
was like, nope, no scandals please. We just had that
huge deal with firing Edward A. Ross. There was no poisoning.
(25:53):
Jane Stanford doesn't think she was poisoned. It's all just
some you know, misunderstanding. So nothing to see here, everybody.
Speaker 1 (26:01):
Right, So the media is not fully buying this, at
least the local media. They continue to kind of speculate
and write about it and investigate, you know, people that
were on the scene, notably the servants that were in
the house at the time.
Speaker 3 (26:14):
For a little while, they kind of cooked up a
case because.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
It seems like fully about anti Chinese prejudice going on
in California at the time of her Chinese cook. But
there was no motive, no evidence at all, So that
kind of went away. And then the police did come in.
They questioned some of the servants, but everybody was exonerated
by the cops in the end.
Speaker 2 (26:36):
Yeah, every single one. So Stanford also hired Stanford the university,
I guess through Jordan hired a private detective and he
did an investigation and basically was like, okay, sure, there
was rat poison in the water. It was added after
the fact for one servant to frame another. And I
(26:57):
don't think any of the servants were named. It was
just a theory that was like, good enough, We're not
even going to publicize that one. Let's just let this die. Meanwhile,
Jane Stanford has gone to Hawaii. Remember she's in Waikiki
at the Mowana Hotel, which is still there, and she's
taken two people with her. Bertha Berner, the secretary who's
(27:18):
been with her for years now, who she was like, here,
you taste this, and a new maid, May Hunter, who
was not I don't believe even on the staff at
the time of that first poisoning attempt. She took both
of them to Hawaii with her.
Speaker 1 (27:34):
Yeah, so she's holed up there. We should point out
that Bernard did not want to go. She had an
ill mother in California and she wanted to stay and
be with her. Jane Standard said, nope, You're coming to
Hawaii with me.
Speaker 2 (27:47):
Yeah, that's why I pointed out her. How Jane Stanford
went back to Albi need to care for her father
until he died.
Speaker 3 (27:53):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (27:53):
So a couple of weeks into Hawaii. This is February
twenty eighth. We'll call this a murder, well successful murder,
not murder attempt number two. She said, hey, I got
a little upset, Tom Tum, go get me some baking
soda and water. And Berner went and did that, and
around eleven o'clock she's not feeling too good. She was like,
(28:17):
I'm really really sick. I think I've been poisoned again.
And they call in a local doctor, Francis Humphress, who
came to the hotel room. And by that time, Jane
Stanford was in pretty bad shape.
Speaker 2 (28:30):
Yeah, her, her, she was showing some telltale signs of
Stryck nine poisoning. Remember the somebody put rat poison in
her Poland springs water. That's Stryck nine. And if you
take Strick nine, some very very telltale things uh take
place over your body because Strick nine interferes with your
nerve receptors or your muscle receptors, I guess, along your
(28:52):
spinal column and you suddenly are having like massive, violent,
involuntary muscle clanching. And they followed like certain patterns or whatever.
And Jane was following these these the same I guess
progression of strychnine poisoning is certainly what it looked like.
And ultimately she died with her body clenched still. And
(29:16):
I think she died at eleven forty about but a
little over thirty minutes after she had gotten up and
said she thought she'd been poisoned.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
Uh yeah, And well I think that's a perfect time
actually for back to three to resume.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
Yeah, this is where the gun goes off.
Speaker 3 (29:33):
All right, right after this, we'll be right back.
Speaker 2 (29:35):
If you want to know, then you're in luck. Just
listen to johch Seffus no stuffuse no.
Speaker 1 (30:02):
All right, So Jane Stanford is now dead. Her last
words were this is a horrible death to die, allegedly,
and Jordan was like, all right, this is no good.
You know, it's no good. If she was murdered, it's
no good. If it was suicide, Like, this is all
just bad news. We have to kind of get this
(30:22):
thing taken care of so the university can not be
tainted by the death of this woman. And he gets
a trustee. He flies out there with this guy, Timothy Hopkins,
to Hawaii. They said they were going to get the body,
and there was also a couple of San Francisco police
detectives that went, a guy named Harry Reynolds and Jules
(30:43):
Callendon of the Morse Detective Agency. They go there obviously
to investigate this death because at the time, Hawaii is
very rural sort of. I think there wasn't a lot
of trust and like either the well both the local
cops and the local doctors.
Speaker 2 (30:59):
Yeah, I think I've been a territory for either three
years or five years. At that point, it was considered
a backwater essentially. I think also Jordan was getting there
so he could do whatever he could to control the narrative.
And those two detectives were working at the behest of
the university essentially, not the public. So a coroner's jury
(31:20):
was convened on March eighth. Remember she died on February
twenty eighth, so about a week later, and they heard
three days of testimony. And after the three days of testimony,
they adjourned for two minutes before they came back and
said she was murdered by poison.
Speaker 1 (31:36):
That's right, But that was no good for Stanford University.
So Jordan was like, all right, let me see if
I can rewrite this narrative. He gets another physician in there,
a guy named doctor Waterhouse, has his own and separate
private investigation. Waterhouse doesn't examine the body. He just goes
on the description of events as they happened. He heard
(31:59):
Berner say, hey, you know, when we were at this picnic,
she really ate a lot and she had tummy trouble.
That's why I was getting her that soda water at
the end of the night. And he put out a
four page report that said that was fully announced to
the media, that no, it was not poisoning. She died
of heart failure, and the local doctor and the local
(32:20):
cops were pretty furious.
Speaker 2 (32:23):
Yeah, so this is what Waterhouse came up with, And
this is what Jordan took back to the mainland and
presented to everybody and said, this is what really happened.
This doctor said so that she had overeaten tongue sandwiches,
under cooked gingerbread, lots of coffee, bunch of chocolate candy,
had basically indigestion, made herself hysterical from the indigestion, and
(32:45):
got so hysterical that her heart stopped. That's how she died.
That's basically what President Jordan came back and told the world,
and it actually worked. It worked because he was a
white man in a prominent position, and people just listened
to because who are you going to listen to this
guy or the Hawaii authorities.
Speaker 1 (33:05):
Yeah, and you know, the media was covering in Hawaii,
the media was covering kind of their side of things.
But in the lower forty eight, especially in San Francisco,
that Jordan narrative was the one that got out. He
was criticizing the local doctors, he was criticizing the local cops.
He said, in fact, he fled out, accused the local
(33:26):
doctor there of adding strick nine after the death to
make it look like a murderer, and said, you know,
Berner was a very close friend. There's no way that
she would have been any part. You know, she was
her trusted secretary for years. There's no way that she
had any part in any of this.
Speaker 2 (33:44):
And again the San Francisco PD and the public and
the press were like, Okay, good enough for us. You
said that the one person who was present at both
poisonings is aoka in your book, Great, she's off the hook.
We're not even going to investigate her thoroughly.
Speaker 3 (33:59):
Yeah, they kind of went away from there.
Speaker 1 (34:01):
Yeah, for a little while, the local papers in San
Francisco covered it, you know, they said that there was
still investigations ongoing and that people you know would be
brought in and arrested or at least you know, investigated,
And that lasted for about a month and no charges
were ultimately filed at all, and it was kind of
(34:22):
like that's the way it went until the early two thousands.
It just kind of went cold until a writer named
Robert W. P. Cutler, who was a neurology professor at
Stanford and a physician, put out a book called The
Mysterious Death of Jane Stanford.
Speaker 2 (34:38):
Yeah, and this was a big deal to question the orthodoxy,
which was, like you said, for a century that she
died of natural causes. That's just what the official line was,
and that's you know, the idea that she'd been poisoned
just completely fell out of the public awareness or imagination
until color brought it back in two thousand and three.
And he was a neurology professor from stanf so he
(35:01):
had like a certain amount of medical background that he
applied into this research. And one of the first things
he did was investigate whether Robert Starr Jordan had any
basis in questioning the qualifications of doctor Humphres and the
other doctors that were there, and he found that no, Actually,
(35:22):
they did a really good job of trying to revive her,
and then they once she was dead, preserving the evidence
because it was so clear to these guys that it
was strychnine poisoning, because she was showing all the telltale signs.
So they preserved evidence in the in the room with her.
They preserved the sodium bicarbonate I guess jar, the spoon,
(35:45):
the glass that had been served in the chamber pot,
and some vomit of hers.
Speaker 3 (35:51):
That's gross, it is gross.
Speaker 2 (35:53):
But not only did they preserve it, they got a
judge to come in who served as a witness while
they handed it over to the sheriff. Then the judge
accompanied the sheriff well. He took this evidence to the
chief sanitary officer at the Board of Health for Hawaii.
And when they carried out this autopsy, there were seven
doctors and a toxicologist who worked on this autopsy. Three
(36:17):
of the doctors hadn't been at the scene, so they
hadn't seen They were just working with just the body
and the evidence. That they got from the body, and
they had a mortician and a morge assistant act as witnesses. Essentially,
you could not do a better job of handling a
suspected murder poison case than these guys did in Hawaii. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:38):
He also found a letter from Jordan to the president
of the Board of trustees that had, you know, just
a lot of different explanations. He said, if the tonic
theory of strychnine is not acceptable, you have the other
that it was put in by the doctor just to
bolster up his case and after he had time to
read up on the symptoms a little. He's a man
without professional or personal standing, so he was It seems
(37:01):
like it was just such a clear cover up that
he was offering up all these different theories of what
could have happened besides the obvious.
Speaker 3 (37:07):
Yeah, and Cutler was like, you know, it is super obvious.
Speaker 1 (37:13):
He didn't come out and like accuse anyone, but he
did sort of offer some ideas. Maybe Berner, the personal secretary,
maybe she was there and had the opportunity to do something,
even though she didn't.
Speaker 3 (37:25):
Have much of a motive.
Speaker 1 (37:27):
Jordan certainly had the motive, but he wasn't there, So
maybe those two were in cahoots or something.
Speaker 2 (37:32):
Yes, So that's kind of where it's sa at. This
two thousand and three book, The Mysterious Death of Jane Stanford,
it got some pretty good press that's still around today
that you know, book reviews and stories and stuff like that,
and that just kind of faded away again. Even though
he kind of upset the balance that had been around
(37:55):
for one hundred years, there wasn't anything major about it
until about twenty years later. Another book from another Stanford professor,
a historian named Richard White, came out, and he just
came out and said it Who Killed Jane Stanford was
the title of his book, and he, like Cutler, did
a really good job of digging into the story and
(38:15):
finding new evidence that, as far as he's concerned, pointed
to the murderer.
Speaker 1 (38:21):
Yeah, I mean, he said that Jordan definitely covered this
thing up. But he said, I don't know if he
would have been the murderer though, because just her dying
period was not good for the university. You know, either way,
if it was suicide, that's no good. If it's murder,
that's certainly no good. So he didn't think that Jordan
(38:43):
would have gone that far because Jordan really wanted to
protect Stanford at all costs.
Speaker 2 (38:48):
Yeah, and you might be like, well, what's the problem
with that, Well, the murder, that's a scandal. The suicide
was a legal problem because it would call into question
her mental fitness at the time that she had offered
that grant, and so all of a sudden, airs people
connected to him, relatives would have come out of the
(39:10):
woodwork challenging that ten million dollar grant and saying, no,
that money's supposed to go to us instead. So he
really did have every reason to cover this up, and
it definitely seems that that was his motivation, But like
you said, he probably had nothing to do with the murder. Instead.
Richard White trains his spotlight on Bertha Burner and he
(39:32):
disagrees with Cutler who Cutler was like, she didn't really
have a motive, even though she had opportunity. He was like,
they weren't the best motives. But there are a couple
of motives that she had. One, she knew that she
was getting an inheritance and maybe she wanted it sooner
than later. And two, she could have just gotten sick
of basically being having to devote her life to Jane
(39:55):
Stanford because that's what was expected of her.
Speaker 3 (39:58):
Yeah, the job that she luntarily asked for.
Speaker 2 (40:01):
Yes, but Jane Stanford like tried to keep her from
having any kind of personal life, and that was not
the kind of person Bertha Berner was. So that was
just a constant source of tension between them, and who knows.
Supposedly both of them were like, no, we're actually good friends,
but there were people on the outside who were like,
it's kind of I'm not sure if they're actually friends.
Speaker 1 (40:23):
That's right, So that's it. That's the death of Jane
Stanford probably never be solved. Jordan continued to work there
as university president until nineteen thirteen. Berner lived pretty well,
you know, because she gotd all that dough from the
will and she you know, people were suspicious of her,
but she basically lived a pretty decent life until she
(40:44):
died in nineteen forty five.
Speaker 2 (40:45):
Yeah, she wrote two biographies on Jane Stanford before she died,
and neither one of them revealed much of anything. So
it's almost teasing, tantalizing, if you will.
Speaker 3 (40:57):
That's it, Well, sist Josh said, that's it. It is
time for listener mail.
Speaker 1 (41:01):
You bet, I'm going to call this weird coincidence because
we have these episodes that come out from time to
time that line up with the news, and that's what
happening with our lasers episode. It came out in real
time today, the day after we learned that a laser
was used to shoot down a drone at the El
(41:22):
Paso Airport and close the airport down.
Speaker 2 (41:24):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (41:25):
So this is Josh and Chucker's equal deep state secures
chin strap to my tinfoil hat.
Speaker 3 (41:32):
I'm officially onto you. Guys.
Speaker 1 (41:34):
You release an episode about lasers the day after the
FAA closes the El Paso Airport and their cover story is.
Speaker 3 (41:40):
They had to shoot drones with their new lasers.
Speaker 1 (41:43):
You might slip this one past some of the other
sheep listening, but oh no, not this guy.
Speaker 3 (41:48):
I want to know who you really worked for.
Speaker 1 (41:49):
Guys, Is it Jerry or does it go all the
way to the top? Well, consider not blowing the whistle
on this conspiracy. If you did an episode on bicycles
or the history of mountain biking. Those my demands, and
that is from Dan.
Speaker 2 (42:02):
Yes, Dan, we work for Jerry. Jerry's actually an acronym
like Specter, but we're not at liberty to say what
it stands for.
Speaker 3 (42:09):
I love it.
Speaker 2 (42:11):
Thanks a lot, Dan, you got us figured out. We're
going to have some goons come to your house and
it's not going to be pleasant for you. Maybe that'll
teach you not to email and shoot off your big
mouth from now on. If you want to be like
Dan and have things happen to you, you can send
us an email too. Send it off to stuff Podcasts
at iHeartRadio dot com.
Speaker 3 (42:33):
Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For
more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's
Chuck and Jerry's here too. And this is Stuff you
should know True crime Murder Mystery edition, like in the
purest form in that we do not know who did it? Sorry?
Who done it?
Speaker 3 (00:26):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (00:27):
And we may never know. We probably will never know,
even though we kind of know.
Speaker 3 (00:31):
It seems like, yeah, I don't think we'll ever know.
This was a listener.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
Suggestion, okay, and I actually from a year ago, almost
to the day.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Oh, that's creepy.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
Sometimes we like to do that, you know. Sure, it's like, yeah,
great idea, We'll do it.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
In one year.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Yeah, we're like, great idea.
Speaker 3 (00:52):
So this has been sitting in the kitty for a while.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
This is from Samuel Krohle, and Olivia helped us out,
and that's it's a real banger about the history of
in a way, the history of Stanford University. It really is,
and one of its co founders and her pretty obvious murder.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Yeah, and the Stanfords were very much intertwined with the
early years of Stanford University, because, after all, you can't
spell Stanford without Stanford. And the reason that this is
a murder mystery is because one of the Stanfords dies mysteriously.
We're not going to say who. You'll figure it out
towards the end, and I say, we jump in and
(01:34):
just start talking about Jane Stanford, who is for the
most part the star of our show.
Speaker 3 (01:40):
That's right, because she was murdered.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
Man, that was the big twist.
Speaker 3 (01:47):
Did you not hear me or are you just is
this all a bit?
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Uh? It's a bit Okay, I didn't hear you, but
it is still a bit. What did you say that
was so pivotal?
Speaker 3 (01:58):
I said that she was murdered, and he said, we're
not going to say he was murdered.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
Right afterward, Oh, I didn't hear you say that. I see, Yeah,
well we'll just edit all this up now.
Speaker 3 (02:07):
We should leave it. So Jane Stanford was.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
You know, she was sort of the prototypical Gilded age
wife at the time, supporting her husband. That was kind
of a job and not kind of it was like
a real job, sort of entertaining, keeping up with like
large residences when you have tons of money, that kind
of thing. But she would go on to be a
(02:32):
she was a very demanding person. It seems like I
want to go on to be a very demanding kind
of lead trustee at Stanford University. And some might even
say a micromanager.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
Oh yeah, I think she definitely fits that mold for sure.
Speaker 3 (02:46):
But as a micromanager, she would just say, I just
want to make sure it's done.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Right, right right. She had some very distinct ideas that
she wanted fulfilled with Stanford, and she had the money
to back it up.
Speaker 3 (02:57):
Basically, yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
But he was born a little background here in upstate
New York in Albany in eighteen twenty eight. One of
seven kids. She was born wealthy. Her parents were shopkeepers,
and she would eventually marry a guy named Leland Stanford.
She was born Jane Lathrop and then would be Jane
Stanford or Jane Lathrope Stanford. He was also from upstate
(03:21):
New York and he was an attorney practicing in Wisconsin.
I keep want to say, Wisconsin, you can.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
Say that's all right. People in Wisconsin don't care.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
Well, we're going to Madison in April. I can't say
that in front of them.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
I think you can. I really think they'll support it.
Speaker 3 (03:37):
They are nice people.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
Yes, pretty much too of herson, except for that one
she was.
Speaker 3 (03:45):
They knew who they are.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
Jane was twenty two at the time, and they were
a part for the beginning of their marriage.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
Though right geographically, yeah, Jane moved back to Albany after
they got married and they were living in Wisconsin. She
wanted to care for her father, which put that just
off to the side. It's not a huge thing, but
she cared for her father until his death. After he died,
(04:12):
she joined her husband, Leland out west. He was a
gold prospector. Well, actually, I don't think he ever got
into prospecting. He was a goods dry goods shop owner
who outfitted prospectors, and he fulfilled like the quintessential Golden
(04:34):
rule of business in a gold brush, don't prospect, sell shovels.
That's exactly what he did.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
Yeah, because you know what, you may not find gold,
but you can always sell a shovel to a gold miner.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
That's precisely right. But I speculate when you can. I
don't know regulate.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
No, I was about to say, Man, if you don't
rhyme that thing, I know, I don't even know who
you are.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
I still didn't do a very good job, but at least.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
No I thought it was pretty good.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
So he made some pretty good money doing that. But
he really really got rich when he became one of
the Big four robber barons that put their money for
it to finance the Central Pacific Railroad in eighteen sixty one,
and all of a sudden, they had this big life
as wealthy people, and he said, well, why not just
(05:22):
get into politics as well?
Speaker 2 (05:24):
Well, the Big Four basically got him into politics to
represent their interests, basically, like they put up some of
their money, but for the most part, they used Leland
Stanford's ron as the governor of California and then later
on as a senator in the United States Senate to
basically lean on the government to get the government to
(05:46):
underwrite the building of the railroad to make connections so
that you could bribe people more easily. Like it was
a so windle. That's how those dudes made that railroad.
They ended up with a monopoly. They seek really bought
the Southern Pacific Railroad, and all of a sudden, Leland
Stanford's the president of that now too, So just to
(06:09):
just kind of like just painted with a big brush
the Stanford's made their money in very questionable ways. So
just just remember that because this is like such a
it's such a great example of American myth making where
some guy just basically fails upward and becomes super super wealthy,
and then you know, very shortly after that he becomes
(06:29):
lionized as like this great heroic builder of America. And
that's just I'm just so sick of that it still
goes on today.
Speaker 3 (06:37):
I mean, haven't most of the Robber Baron's been kind
of kneecapped.
Speaker 2 (06:41):
Uh, yeah, I think so. But I think at least
some of them were legitimately philanthropists. I don't think Leland
Stanford was legitimately a philanthropist. I get the impression. I've
actually seen it written that basically they laundered their ill
gotten gains through the university to leave a prestigious legacy
(07:03):
for themselves instead.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
All right, well, they were smart for the first eighteen
years of their marriage and did not have kids, and
then they ruined that all kind of later in life
for them. When little Leland Junior was born. Jane was
thirty nine at the time, which is especially for the time,
a bit of an advanced stage to give birth certainly,
you know, not without risk. And Leland Senior was, like
(07:29):
you said, he got involved in politics. They also, I mean,
they had their fingers in a lot of pies. They
ran a few wineries, they raised horses. This is just
a little kind of fun side note that Livia dug up.
But yeah, you know the very famous Edward Moybridge his
early motion picture film when he set up twenty four
(07:49):
cameras and showed like a horse running, which a said like, hey,
we can have something called motion pictures and also said, hey,
look that horse has all of its four feet off
the ground.
Speaker 3 (07:59):
At the same time. That was done on their.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
Property, the Palo Alto Stock Farm. So just a fun
little thing, and that's where Stanford University eventually would be.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
Did you ever see the Jordan Peele movie. Nope, yep,
I thought that was a cool little just a little
line yap where the oh I don't remember his name,
but he was also in Get Out to the main Guy. Yeah, yeah,
yeah where he he's his character is descended from the
jockey that rode that horse.
Speaker 3 (08:31):
Yeah. I thought that was cool too, Daniel something right.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
I don't remember. I feel like a total jerk, but.
Speaker 3 (08:37):
Well, you know, you can't remember everything off the dome.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
But it turns out in real life that jockey's name
was Dom do o m m. They think maybe Gilbert Dom.
Speaker 3 (08:48):
So you know his name?
Speaker 2 (08:51):
Yeah, but I looked it up this morning. So all right,
that's it. Smart guy. Here.
Speaker 3 (08:55):
We're glad everybody knows that guy's name.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
Here we go.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
So sadly, Leland Junior would not live very long. He
died at fifteen. He went to Europe with his mom
and it was pretty sad thing, obviously a tragedy for
the family. But a very interesting thing happened at the
funeral when a young woman named Bertha Berner was there
and met Jane. Would later write her a letter and say, Hey,
(09:22):
I think you could use a person like me in
your life. We'll call it personal secretary or whatever, but
basically your right hand person to kind of help you
with everything that you need.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
Yeah, like you said, just the classic Gilded Age wife, right, yeah, okay.
Speaker 3 (09:41):
Along with a little spiritualism thrown in.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
Yeah, that was a big one. And you know that
gets kind of tossed around quite a bit that the Stanfords,
in particular Jane, were really heavy into spiritualism. Well, all
out of people were heavy into spiritualism at this time,
so it was generally looked down upon from the halls
of academia. So in a way it was a little
awkward for the university for their founders to have been
(10:05):
into spiritualism. But it wasn't just completely out of left field.
Speaker 3 (10:10):
No not.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
You know, among especially among the sort of wealthy elites,
they were into that kind of thing.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
And also I mean there was the death of Edward
or the death of Leland Junior was a really huge
turning point. Apparently they were kind of dabbling in it.
But after that she kind of devoted herself to getting
a message from or getting in contact I guess with
Leland Junior again. And she tried for a long time,
and then I think in the end she was she
(10:36):
was dissatisfied. She couldn't find anybody that she considered legitimate
enough to actually do it, even though she believed it
was possible. She found that everyone she came in contact
with was a fraud or huckster.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
So and she's probably right. So Berner gets this job.
You know, people from the outside were like, man, she
really works hard for Jane Stanford, like she doesn't seem
to have any time off. She kind of is run
by Jane Stanford, but they were very close and she
would be with her until the day she died. Put
(11:09):
a pen in that and in fact would get quite
rich from her death. I think she got fifteen grand.
The other household staff got a thousand dollars each in
the will, but Berner got fifteen grand, which is about
half a million today.
Speaker 3 (11:23):
So not too bad, No, not bad at all.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
I Also, I just want to say before we move on,
the actor's name is Daniel Caluja.
Speaker 3 (11:31):
Great.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
So it was Leland Junior's death that actually inspired the
founding of Stanford University.
Speaker 3 (11:38):
There are a couple of stories about how that might
have happened.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
I think Leland took maybe the more acceptable mainstream version,
which is, hey, it came to me in a dream
after my son's death. But there was a medium, maud
Lord Drake, who said, no, that actually happened in a
seance with me. It was a visitation from the afterworld
(12:01):
that I mediated, and he just didn't want to say
that out loud, so he just called it a dream.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
Yeah. Her famous quote was who has two thumbs? And
was the medium who got Leland junior to tell his
parents that he wanted them to found a university, and
she said me.
Speaker 3 (12:15):
Yeah, maud Lord Drake.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
So yeah, you could actually make a case that if
the university was true to form at the time, it's
quite possible that they the Stanford's claimed that it was
from this seance, but the university just basically whitewashed that
over and it became a dream instead. That's right, so, Chuck,
(12:40):
Regardless of how it came about, the Stanfords said that
although they had lost their son, now the children of
California would become their children, and to do that, they
founded Stanford University. For those of you who aren't familiar,
it's one of the most prestigious universities in the world
as far as I know, certainly in the US. Is
(13:00):
the cradle for our current tech explosion, and it's just
a really great university. Its official name is Leland Stanford
Junior University after Leland Stanford Junior. Still today, that's what
it's called. And if you look at the details of
how it was founded and what its mission was when
(13:21):
it was open, it's like the Stanford's definitely did a
good job of opening a public university.
Speaker 1 (13:28):
Yeah, it was pretty unique. Tuition was free first of all,
so that was fairly unique. So it you know, they
led in students that couldn't afford to go to college otherwise. Yeah,
Jane said, I want to make it a co ed school.
There were just a handful of those in the in
the United States at the time.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
And also, I'm doing Sergio, You're what I'm doing, Sergio,
Jane said.
Speaker 3 (13:52):
Oh, I got you.
Speaker 1 (13:54):
The other sort of odd thing was that it was
not associated with a church. It was a Christian university,
but it wasn't like, you know, Jane again was dabbling
in the occult, so she she had sort of loose,
sort of a loose association with particular denominations. So it
was a non denominational Christian school, very much kind of
(14:19):
a liberal arts thing at first. It would later and
in fact, you know, it was part of the friction
between Jane and the eventual president on what kind of
school it would be. She wanted it more liberal arts
and he wanted it more science and research, research based.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
Yeah, but even out of the gate, apparently it was
for preparing students for personal success and direct usefulness in life.
One of the things they did was they created an
extension service for local farmers to find out the latest
agricultural techniques. They accepted high school shop classes as credits.
Like it they were. It wasn't just this. It wasn't
(14:55):
an elite institution meant to create a new generation of
elites like say Harvard was at the time, just at
the time.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
By the way, in my defense, I didn't recognize your
Jane's addiction line because I think that lyric is wrong.
I think it's I'm done with Sergio.
Speaker 2 (15:16):
Well, I think that's the second verse, is it. I
will say anything to make myself right.
Speaker 3 (15:24):
Okay, I just wouldn't. He said. Doing Sergio was like,
who the hell is Sergio?
Speaker 2 (15:29):
She was? That's the point.
Speaker 3 (15:33):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
He treated her like a rag doll.
Speaker 3 (15:35):
Well see now you're getting back on the good side
of history.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
Well die, thanks all right. So Stanford is opening up.
It's October first, eighteen ninety one. Leland gives a great
speech Leland senior, of course, and Jane apparently had a
real banger of a speech written, and she said that
she didn't have the courage to actually do it, but
had she, it would have gone over pretty well, I think,
because in it there was a plea to the students, like, hey,
(16:03):
we're a new school. You know, got to work out
the kinks here. Maybe be a little patient, and hey,
if you're a young male student here, you know you
have girls around, Please treat these young ladies with great deference.
And you might have some kids who don't come from
wealthy backgrounds because it's a free school, and maybe treat
them well as well. So you know, she has this
great letter written and never says it publicly, unfortunately, No.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
But I mean all of these points support our overall point,
like we said, which is they did a pretty good
job of founding a university. Like to mission was great.
The details are pretty.
Speaker 3 (16:36):
Great, better than we've done.
Speaker 2 (16:39):
For sure. Ours is still kind of getting off the ground.
It's just basically a grift right now, right, but hopefully
we'll be able to build it into something real. Yeah,
there is an issue with finding a president. Apparently the
presidents they were looking for were like, I'm good here,
I don't feel like moving out west. I think that
was a big part of it. Like CALIFORNI you was
(17:00):
not like California as it is now. The Stanford University
helped make northern California. What it is now, so it
was still rugged. You know. They couldn't get any just
any Eastern college president to hop from his college out
to Stanford. They finally found a former president of Indiana
(17:20):
University named David Starr Jordan, who was also an ichthyologist
by training and trade. He finally took them up on
the offer.
Speaker 3 (17:30):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
And he also had a lot of pretty gross views
on things, yeah, like super in retrospect. He was into eugenics.
He thought scientific racism was pretty great in that if
you're unfit, like if you're disabled or if you're in prison,
maybe we should.
Speaker 3 (17:50):
Just sterilize you.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
And yeah, women should get educated, but just so they
can be smarter in the home as homemakers.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
He was also like a vocal pacifist, which you're kind
of like, oh, okay, that's not bad. The reason why
he was a pacifist was because he felt war promoted
racial degradation because you send the fittest young men off
to die, that leaves the week to stay home and procreate,
and it degenerates the racer society back home. That was
(18:19):
the reason he was a pacifist in anti war. Yeah,
there was nothing he could do right basically with that
set of views.
Speaker 1 (18:26):
Yeah, I agree, I think we should probably take a break.
Speaker 3 (18:30):
Yeah, set the stage for Stanford's founding. Sure, and we'll
be right back with more on Jane Stanford.
Speaker 2 (18:35):
If you want to know then you're in luck. Just
listen to joshcher Suffus stuffus. No, Okay, So we're whittling
(19:04):
down the people who could possibly have been murdered because
Leland Junior's dead. Now, now Leland Senior dies, there are
very few people left of the Stanfords. Two have been
the murder victim. Now it's just Jane. If that gives
anything away, that's right.
Speaker 1 (19:20):
So Jane was left as the basically the only trustee
of the early university, and she had a situation going
on with the US government where they were like it
was a lawsuit fifteen million bucks and eighteen ninety three dollars,
and the kind of central point of it was they
the government was like, hey, because you or your husband
(19:42):
and your family was part you know, like founded and
has ownership stairs of the Central Pacific Railroad Company, you
should also be responsible for that company's debts and we
helped finance this thing, so like you need to pay
us back for these bonds that we sold, right, and
she actually won that case, which all of a sudd
and you know, they kind of had frozen her assets.
(20:02):
So all of a sudden, these assets were open, and
she gave a huge chunk of eighteen ninety nine dollars
to Stanford and to the tune of ten million bucks.
Speaker 2 (20:11):
Yeah, and we should say to her credit before that.
So this went on for six years. From what I
can tell. During that six year time, the court gave
her a three hundred in today's dollars about a three
hundred and sixty five thousand dollars a month allowance, and
she spent most of it. She gave most of it
to Stanford to run Stanford with. So she wasn't just like, well,
(20:33):
I'm good, good luck Stanford. So and then yeah, after
her assets were on frozen, she was like, hey, how
about ten million dollars? And everyone said, God, this is great,
how wonderful. And she's like, wait a second, there's a
couple of strings I'm going to attach to this. And
they were strings that you would find hard to swallow,
like the kind of strings you would put down your
(20:55):
nose and pull out your mouth at the same time,
back and forth, they were those kind of strings.
Speaker 3 (21:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:00):
I mean she basically had total and complete control of
what happened there, including like how many trustees there would
even be, so she wouldn't get a lot of pushback.
Like I said, she was a micromanager, but not to her.
To her, she just wanted things done right, and she
basically had complete control over the university, said, you know,
(21:23):
like who could get in, who could get out, what
teachers they could hire as staff.
Speaker 3 (21:29):
She said that they capped.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
Even though it was her idea to make it a
co ed school, which is great, she capped it at
five hundred women because she didn't want it. She thought
after that people may think it's a women's college and
that men might stop applying, and that cap was in
place for a while even after she died, until they
got rid of it.
Speaker 2 (21:48):
Yeah. I read that she also had been told rumors
that the men students were being distracted by the women's students,
and Susan B. Anthony wrote her and was just appalled
and was like, what are you doing. She stuck with it.
She was very adamant about that, and like you said,
I don't think it was until the thirties where they
(22:08):
finally were like, we can't just keep it at five hundred,
so they lifted that.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
Yeah, so Star the President did not like this at all.
He didn't like having someone sort of that much in
the business. It seems like they had a pretty friction
riddled relationship. Yeah, especially you know, she tried to get
some of the spiritualism in there. I mentioned before that
she wanted to focus on the liberal arts, but she
(22:34):
also wanted to create an academic chair in psychic psychology.
She also tried to hire this philosopher named William James,
who was a guy who was very much involved in
the paranormal as a visiting professor.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
Yeah. He was also the father of psychology, so he
would have been quite a catch. But I think just
his association with the paranormal made Jordan kind of like
dismiss everything else.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
Yeah, I could see that she finally got this guy
named Julius Gerbel, not Goebels. I don't know if he
dropped that s would or I guess this was pre
World War two so he didn't even know yet, but
he it seems like he was hired basically to kind
of look out over the shoulder of David Starr Jordan,
(23:22):
which he certainly didn't appreciate.
Speaker 2 (23:24):
No, and he reported back to Jane Stanford that Jordan
was basically a patron of the science department and anti
liberal arts departments, and that he was basically running the
university like that. He was going behind Jane Stanford's back
to win that argument over whether it should be a
science or a liberal arts college. And then one thing
(23:45):
that really kind of made huge waves as far as
her micromanagement went. You said that she wanted to have
control over who was hired. She also felt like she
was totally within her rights to say fire that guy
for whatever reason. And there was a professor named Edward A.
Ross who was a social scientist, and he was very
(24:07):
much vocal in his support for William Jennings Bryant, who
was a Democrat, and she did not like that. She
was not in favor of William Jennings Bryant, so she
told Jordan to fire him, and Jordan eventually buckled under pressure,
and this became like a national scandal about whether there
was academic freedom at all at Stanford. It was a
(24:28):
huge deal.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
Well, I think everyone sees where this is headed, and this,
I guess we'll just classify as murder attempt number one
in January of nineteen oh five. That was a servant
that puts some water on her nightstand before Jane Stanford
was going to bed, and there in San Francisco, she
drank some of it, said this doesn't taste quite right.
(24:51):
So she went and gagged herself and made herself throw up,
and then gave it to her secretary and said, here,
you try this. She tried it and was like, yeah,
this doesn't taste right. So they sent it to a
pharmacy and found that, in fact, was poison. It was
it was rat poison, not full Strych nine, but just
sort of over the counter rat poison.
Speaker 2 (25:13):
Yeah, which is bad enough. I mean, it could kill
you for sure. So this was I mean, I can't
imagine that, like if somebody had put rat poison in
your water. So she was like, I'm getting out of here.
I guess after the report came back a few weeks
later that it was rat poison. She went to Hawaii.
I read that she was ultimately on her way to
(25:33):
Japan and that Hawaii was just a stop. I also
read that she was trying to get out of Dodge
and get away from having been poisoned, and so news
of this poisoning started to spread and Jordan, president of Stanford,
was like, nope, no scandals please. We just had that
huge deal with firing Edward A. Ross. There was no poisoning.
(25:53):
Jane Stanford doesn't think she was poisoned. It's all just
some you know, misunderstanding. So nothing to see here, everybody.
Speaker 1 (26:01):
Right, So the media is not fully buying this, at
least the local media. They continue to kind of speculate
and write about it and investigate, you know, people that
were on the scene, notably the servants that were in
the house at the time.
Speaker 3 (26:14):
For a little while, they kind of cooked up a
case because.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
It seems like fully about anti Chinese prejudice going on
in California at the time of her Chinese cook. But
there was no motive, no evidence at all, So that
kind of went away. And then the police did come in.
They questioned some of the servants, but everybody was exonerated
by the cops in the end.
Speaker 2 (26:36):
Yeah, every single one. So Stanford also hired Stanford the university,
I guess through Jordan hired a private detective and he
did an investigation and basically was like, okay, sure, there
was rat poison in the water. It was added after
the fact for one servant to frame another. And I
(26:57):
don't think any of the servants were named. It was
just a theory that was like, good enough, We're not
even going to publicize that one. Let's just let this die. Meanwhile,
Jane Stanford has gone to Hawaii. Remember she's in Waikiki
at the Mowana Hotel, which is still there, and she's
taken two people with her. Bertha Berner, the secretary who's
(27:18):
been with her for years now, who she was like, here,
you taste this, and a new maid, May Hunter, who
was not I don't believe even on the staff at
the time of that first poisoning attempt. She took both
of them to Hawaii with her.
Speaker 1 (27:34):
Yeah, so she's holed up there. We should point out
that Bernard did not want to go. She had an
ill mother in California and she wanted to stay and
be with her. Jane Standard said, nope, You're coming to
Hawaii with me.
Speaker 2 (27:47):
Yeah, that's why I pointed out her. How Jane Stanford
went back to Albi need to care for her father
until he died.
Speaker 3 (27:53):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (27:53):
So a couple of weeks into Hawaii. This is February
twenty eighth. We'll call this a murder, well successful murder,
not murder attempt number two. She said, hey, I got
a little upset, Tom Tum, go get me some baking
soda and water. And Berner went and did that, and
around eleven o'clock she's not feeling too good. She was like,
(28:17):
I'm really really sick. I think I've been poisoned again.
And they call in a local doctor, Francis Humphress, who
came to the hotel room. And by that time, Jane
Stanford was in pretty bad shape.
Speaker 2 (28:30):
Yeah, her, her, she was showing some telltale signs of
Stryck nine poisoning. Remember the somebody put rat poison in
her Poland springs water. That's Stryck nine. And if you
take Strick nine, some very very telltale things uh take
place over your body because Strick nine interferes with your
nerve receptors or your muscle receptors, I guess, along your
(28:52):
spinal column and you suddenly are having like massive, violent,
involuntary muscle clanching. And they followed like certain patterns or whatever.
And Jane was following these these the same I guess
progression of strychnine poisoning is certainly what it looked like.
And ultimately she died with her body clenched still. And
(29:16):
I think she died at eleven forty about but a
little over thirty minutes after she had gotten up and
said she thought she'd been poisoned.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
Uh yeah, And well I think that's a perfect time
actually for back to three to resume.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
Yeah, this is where the gun goes off.
Speaker 3 (29:33):
All right, right after this, we'll be right back.
Speaker 2 (29:35):
If you want to know, then you're in luck. Just
listen to johch Seffus no stuffuse no.
Speaker 1 (30:02):
All right, So Jane Stanford is now dead. Her last
words were this is a horrible death to die, allegedly,
and Jordan was like, all right, this is no good.
You know, it's no good. If she was murdered, it's
no good. If it was suicide, Like, this is all
just bad news. We have to kind of get this
(30:22):
thing taken care of so the university can not be
tainted by the death of this woman. And he gets
a trustee. He flies out there with this guy, Timothy Hopkins,
to Hawaii. They said they were going to get the body,
and there was also a couple of San Francisco police
detectives that went, a guy named Harry Reynolds and Jules
(30:43):
Callendon of the Morse Detective Agency. They go there obviously
to investigate this death because at the time, Hawaii is
very rural sort of. I think there wasn't a lot
of trust and like either the well both the local
cops and the local doctors.
Speaker 2 (30:59):
Yeah, I think I've been a territory for either three
years or five years. At that point, it was considered
a backwater essentially. I think also Jordan was getting there
so he could do whatever he could to control the narrative.
And those two detectives were working at the behest of
the university essentially, not the public. So a coroner's jury
(31:20):
was convened on March eighth. Remember she died on February
twenty eighth, so about a week later, and they heard
three days of testimony. And after the three days of testimony,
they adjourned for two minutes before they came back and
said she was murdered by poison.
Speaker 1 (31:36):
That's right, But that was no good for Stanford University.
So Jordan was like, all right, let me see if
I can rewrite this narrative. He gets another physician in there,
a guy named doctor Waterhouse, has his own and separate
private investigation. Waterhouse doesn't examine the body. He just goes
on the description of events as they happened. He heard
(31:59):
Berner say, hey, you know, when we were at this picnic,
she really ate a lot and she had tummy trouble.
That's why I was getting her that soda water at
the end of the night. And he put out a
four page report that said that was fully announced to
the media, that no, it was not poisoning. She died
of heart failure, and the local doctor and the local
(32:20):
cops were pretty furious.
Speaker 2 (32:23):
Yeah, so this is what Waterhouse came up with, And
this is what Jordan took back to the mainland and
presented to everybody and said, this is what really happened.
This doctor said so that she had overeaten tongue sandwiches,
under cooked gingerbread, lots of coffee, bunch of chocolate candy,
had basically indigestion, made herself hysterical from the indigestion, and
(32:45):
got so hysterical that her heart stopped. That's how she died.
That's basically what President Jordan came back and told the world,
and it actually worked. It worked because he was a
white man in a prominent position, and people just listened
to because who are you going to listen to this
guy or the Hawaii authorities.
Speaker 1 (33:05):
Yeah, and you know, the media was covering in Hawaii,
the media was covering kind of their side of things.
But in the lower forty eight, especially in San Francisco,
that Jordan narrative was the one that got out. He
was criticizing the local doctors, he was criticizing the local cops.
He said, in fact, he fled out, accused the local
(33:26):
doctor there of adding strick nine after the death to
make it look like a murderer, and said, you know,
Berner was a very close friend. There's no way that
she would have been any part. You know, she was
her trusted secretary for years. There's no way that she
had any part in any of this.
Speaker 2 (33:44):
And again the San Francisco PD and the public and
the press were like, Okay, good enough for us. You
said that the one person who was present at both
poisonings is aoka in your book, Great, she's off the hook.
We're not even going to investigate her thoroughly.
Speaker 3 (33:59):
Yeah, they kind of went away from there.
Speaker 1 (34:01):
Yeah, for a little while, the local papers in San
Francisco covered it, you know, they said that there was
still investigations ongoing and that people you know would be
brought in and arrested or at least you know, investigated,
And that lasted for about a month and no charges
were ultimately filed at all, and it was kind of
(34:22):
like that's the way it went until the early two thousands.
It just kind of went cold until a writer named
Robert W. P. Cutler, who was a neurology professor at
Stanford and a physician, put out a book called The
Mysterious Death of Jane Stanford.
Speaker 2 (34:38):
Yeah, and this was a big deal to question the orthodoxy,
which was, like you said, for a century that she
died of natural causes. That's just what the official line was,
and that's you know, the idea that she'd been poisoned
just completely fell out of the public awareness or imagination
until color brought it back in two thousand and three.
And he was a neurology professor from stanf so he
(35:01):
had like a certain amount of medical background that he
applied into this research. And one of the first things
he did was investigate whether Robert Starr Jordan had any
basis in questioning the qualifications of doctor Humphres and the
other doctors that were there, and he found that no, Actually,
(35:22):
they did a really good job of trying to revive her,
and then they once she was dead, preserving the evidence
because it was so clear to these guys that it
was strychnine poisoning, because she was showing all the telltale signs.
So they preserved evidence in the in the room with her.
They preserved the sodium bicarbonate I guess jar, the spoon,
(35:45):
the glass that had been served in the chamber pot,
and some vomit of hers.
Speaker 3 (35:51):
That's gross, it is gross.
Speaker 2 (35:53):
But not only did they preserve it, they got a
judge to come in who served as a witness while
they handed it over to the sheriff. Then the judge
accompanied the sheriff well. He took this evidence to the
chief sanitary officer at the Board of Health for Hawaii.
And when they carried out this autopsy, there were seven
doctors and a toxicologist who worked on this autopsy. Three
(36:17):
of the doctors hadn't been at the scene, so they
hadn't seen They were just working with just the body
and the evidence. That they got from the body, and
they had a mortician and a morge assistant act as witnesses. Essentially,
you could not do a better job of handling a
suspected murder poison case than these guys did in Hawaii. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:38):
He also found a letter from Jordan to the president
of the Board of trustees that had, you know, just
a lot of different explanations. He said, if the tonic
theory of strychnine is not acceptable, you have the other
that it was put in by the doctor just to
bolster up his case and after he had time to
read up on the symptoms a little. He's a man
without professional or personal standing, so he was It seems
(37:01):
like it was just such a clear cover up that
he was offering up all these different theories of what
could have happened besides the obvious.
Speaker 3 (37:07):
Yeah, and Cutler was like, you know, it is super obvious.
Speaker 1 (37:13):
He didn't come out and like accuse anyone, but he
did sort of offer some ideas. Maybe Berner, the personal secretary,
maybe she was there and had the opportunity to do something,
even though she didn't.
Speaker 3 (37:25):
Have much of a motive.
Speaker 1 (37:27):
Jordan certainly had the motive, but he wasn't there, So
maybe those two were in cahoots or something.
Speaker 2 (37:32):
Yes, So that's kind of where it's sa at. This
two thousand and three book, The Mysterious Death of Jane Stanford,
it got some pretty good press that's still around today
that you know, book reviews and stories and stuff like that,
and that just kind of faded away again. Even though
he kind of upset the balance that had been around
(37:55):
for one hundred years, there wasn't anything major about it
until about twenty years later. Another book from another Stanford professor,
a historian named Richard White, came out, and he just
came out and said it Who Killed Jane Stanford was
the title of his book, and he, like Cutler, did
a really good job of digging into the story and
(38:15):
finding new evidence that, as far as he's concerned, pointed
to the murderer.
Speaker 1 (38:21):
Yeah, I mean, he said that Jordan definitely covered this
thing up. But he said, I don't know if he
would have been the murderer though, because just her dying
period was not good for the university. You know, either way,
if it was suicide, that's no good. If it's murder,
that's certainly no good. So he didn't think that Jordan
(38:43):
would have gone that far because Jordan really wanted to
protect Stanford at all costs.
Speaker 2 (38:48):
Yeah, and you might be like, well, what's the problem
with that, Well, the murder, that's a scandal. The suicide
was a legal problem because it would call into question
her mental fitness at the time that she had offered
that grant, and so all of a sudden, airs people
connected to him, relatives would have come out of the
(39:10):
woodwork challenging that ten million dollar grant and saying, no,
that money's supposed to go to us instead. So he
really did have every reason to cover this up, and
it definitely seems that that was his motivation, But like
you said, he probably had nothing to do with the murder. Instead.
Richard White trains his spotlight on Bertha Burner and he
(39:32):
disagrees with Cutler who Cutler was like, she didn't really
have a motive, even though she had opportunity. He was like,
they weren't the best motives. But there are a couple
of motives that she had. One, she knew that she
was getting an inheritance and maybe she wanted it sooner
than later. And two, she could have just gotten sick
of basically being having to devote her life to Jane
(39:55):
Stanford because that's what was expected of her.
Speaker 3 (39:58):
Yeah, the job that she luntarily asked for.
Speaker 2 (40:01):
Yes, but Jane Stanford like tried to keep her from
having any kind of personal life, and that was not
the kind of person Bertha Berner was. So that was
just a constant source of tension between them, and who knows.
Supposedly both of them were like, no, we're actually good friends,
but there were people on the outside who were like,
it's kind of I'm not sure if they're actually friends.
Speaker 1 (40:23):
That's right, So that's it. That's the death of Jane
Stanford probably never be solved. Jordan continued to work there
as university president until nineteen thirteen. Berner lived pretty well,
you know, because she gotd all that dough from the
will and she you know, people were suspicious of her,
but she basically lived a pretty decent life until she
(40:44):
died in nineteen forty five.
Speaker 2 (40:45):
Yeah, she wrote two biographies on Jane Stanford before she died,
and neither one of them revealed much of anything. So
it's almost teasing, tantalizing, if you will.
Speaker 3 (40:57):
That's it, Well, sist Josh said, that's it. It is
time for listener mail.
Speaker 1 (41:01):
You bet, I'm going to call this weird coincidence because
we have these episodes that come out from time to
time that line up with the news, and that's what
happening with our lasers episode. It came out in real
time today, the day after we learned that a laser
was used to shoot down a drone at the El
(41:22):
Paso Airport and close the airport down.
Speaker 2 (41:24):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (41:25):
So this is Josh and Chucker's equal deep state secures
chin strap to my tinfoil hat.
Speaker 3 (41:32):
I'm officially onto you. Guys.
Speaker 1 (41:34):
You release an episode about lasers the day after the
FAA closes the El Paso Airport and their cover story is.
Speaker 3 (41:40):
They had to shoot drones with their new lasers.
Speaker 1 (41:43):
You might slip this one past some of the other
sheep listening, but oh no, not this guy.
Speaker 3 (41:48):
I want to know who you really worked for.
Speaker 1 (41:49):
Guys, Is it Jerry or does it go all the
way to the top? Well, consider not blowing the whistle
on this conspiracy. If you did an episode on bicycles
or the history of mountain biking. Those my demands, and
that is from Dan.
Speaker 2 (42:02):
Yes, Dan, we work for Jerry. Jerry's actually an acronym
like Specter, but we're not at liberty to say what
it stands for.
Speaker 3 (42:09):
I love it.
Speaker 2 (42:11):
Thanks a lot, Dan, you got us figured out. We're
going to have some goons come to your house and
it's not going to be pleasant for you. Maybe that'll
teach you not to email and shoot off your big
mouth from now on. If you want to be like
Dan and have things happen to you, you can send
us an email too. Send it off to stuff Podcasts
at iHeartRadio dot com.
Speaker 3 (42:33):
Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For
more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
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Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
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