Have you ever wondered how the radio landscape has evolved over the decades, and what it takes to lead in such a dynamic industry? Join host Buzz Knight on this episode of takin’ a walk as he engages in a captivating conversation with Dan Mason, a legendary broadcasting executive whose career has shaped the very fabric of radio. From his humble beginnings to steering major radio groups through transformative years, Mason’s journey is a treasure trove of insights for anyone interested in the world of music history, inspiring icons and broadcasting.
As they stroll through the intricacies of the radio business, Knight and Dan Mason dive into the art of running successful radio stations, exploring the vital roles of personalities and programmers. The discussion unveils the strategic business decisions that have not only defined Mason’s career but also influenced the wider music journey. With a focus on leadership during times of change, Mason reflects on the challenges of maintaining personality-driven content amidst industry consolidation and rapid technological advancements.
Listeners will be drawn in as Dan Mason shares compelling stories from his book, Fearless: The Life and Times of a Media Maverick, where he recounts his radio history experiences and the invaluable lessons learned along the way. His passion for radio and his connection with audiences resonate throughout the conversation, making this episode a rich exploration of the broadcasting industry and its future. Whether you’re a fan of classic rock history, jazz music, or the latest indie music journey, there’s something here for everyone.
Join Buzz Knight on takin’ a walk for a behind-the-scenes look at the evolution of radio, featuring inspiring stories from legendary musicians and songwriters that have left an indelible mark on the music history landscape. This episode is not just about the past; it’s about the future of radio and the cultural impact of music that continues to inspire artists and audiences alike. Don’t miss out on this insightful discussion that celebrates the heart of Nashville music history and beyond!
#radio legend #music history podcast #inspiring icons #leadership
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Taking a Walk.
Speaker 2 (00:01):
Welcome to the Taking a Walk podcast on Buzz Night,
And on today's episode, we're going to take a step
back into my radio history and we're going to share
a conversation with my former boss, Dan Mason, the legendary
broadcasting executive. He steered the nation's largest radio groups through
some of the most transformative years in the industry's history.
(00:24):
Dan's career in radio spans generations.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
From his early days learning the business from the.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Ground up to leading a portfolio of iconic stations across
America during a time when the entire medium was being
redefined by consolidation, new technology, and changing listener habits. In
this conversation, we talk about the art of running great
radio stations, the personalities and programmers who made them unforgettable,
the business decisions that shaped an era, and what Dan
(00:52):
learned about leadership during times of massive industry change. Whether
you lived through radio's golden age or your discovering its
history now, Dan Mason's story is more than just broadcasting.
It's about vision, resilience, and the power of connecting with audiences.
So let's talk with Dan Mason next on Taking a Walk.
Speaker 3 (01:17):
Taking a Walk, Well, this is a treat. Welcome to
Taking a Walk, Dan Mason.
Speaker 4 (01:22):
Glad to be here, buzz a long time, you'll see,
but I'm always been a fan.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Oh the same here, Dan, So you are not going
to be able to escape our first opening question, which is,
actually you'll appreciate this. It's it's turned out to be
my benchmark for the Taking a Walk podcast, where I
opened it and I asked guests the question if you
(01:47):
could take a walk with somebody living or dad, who
would you take a walk with?
Speaker 3 (01:51):
And maybe where would you take that walk with him?
Speaker 4 (01:54):
You know when I saw that on the sheet here,
I look at that and I kind of had to
smile and I had to do some thinking. But at
the end of the bought process, I think I would
like to walk with Gordon mclindon. And some of the
audience may not know who Gordon Mclinton is. I mean
time has passed by, but in my estimation he was
(02:15):
like the godfather of personality radio. Not necessarily top forty
radio because there's a lot of people that would claim
that thing, but how to get personalities on the radio
and little twist and turns with creating jingles, contests, promotion,
traffic vehicles, you name it. That's and I don't care
(02:35):
where I walk, I'll go anywhere as far as that goes.
But I would like to talk to him about how
he created and what his thought processes were about personality radio.
Not top forty because you know there's a lot of
people that can claim that, but I'm really be interested
in his philosophy on what he thought about contests because
(02:56):
nobody was doing that. I remember if Wa ky Wiman
m clinda owned that station. Back in the sixties, they
came out with color radio. I mean, who would have
ever thought that? And obviously it was in contrast to
color TV. You wanted to make it more bright, more fun.
But that's who I would go with. And like I
don't care where I go, I walk on a bed
(03:19):
of nails, I don't care.
Speaker 3 (03:21):
Would you reflect on them the current state of things?
Speaker 4 (03:26):
Yeah, yeah, I probably would because I'm disappointed, like many
of us in the business that you know, the personalities
have been drained from the radio and another generation either
hasn't been taught or hasn't been picked up on about
what went into that. But you know, I'm even as
(03:48):
a kid. We can get into this a little bit later,
but I listened to Wacky and Looible. That was my station.
And I remember, at fourteen years old, Johnny Randolph, who
was a program director, was taking me to a drug
store for orange juice because I was just into everything
they did. And my image of them was disc jockey's
(04:11):
smoking cigarettes and wearying, wearing the purple velvet jacket and
you know, having fifteen girls around. But you know, and
it's funny that I stood in front of that window
at WKLO and that was where I eventually ended up.
But just you know, begging what somebody come let me in.
(04:34):
It's thirty two degrees and snowing out here. Of course
nobody let me in. But I even with Randolph, what
I would do buzz I would write letters and critique
the radio station, and I would tell him the afternoon
guy should go to all nights, the all night person
needs to do morning drive, and blah blah blah blah blah.
And can you imagine if he ever told those poor
(04:55):
guys that this dumb fourteen year old kid was dictating
the line up at the radio station. But oh it was.
But I only because I loved the business. I'm known
ever since I was twelve years old. I wanted to
do somehow be in radio. I'm still going to radio
anybody let me on, so I do it all the time.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
Well, we're going to talk about that, and we got
to talk about the book also, Fearless, the Life and
Times of a Media Mavericks, So we're going to get
into that obviously the context of it. But before your
love of radio, you had to have a connection, certainly
with music.
Speaker 3 (05:31):
Before that, I'm thinking, is that true?
Speaker 4 (05:33):
Well, yeah, I mean I was a top forty junkie.
You know, I bought my first record was I Get
Around by the Beach Boys. But yeah, I mean I
loved hits by the Hits, and I didn't want to
hear anything past the top forty. You know, don't give
me forty five or fifty. I don't want to hear that.
So it's really funny when I would interview program directors,
(05:55):
I would say, let me ask you, what's your record
collection like? And the people who would say, oh, I've
got two thousand albums, I'd say, next, I'm not going
to hire you. Not a way that look for the
I look for the person who said, well I really
don't have very many. I mean, you're.
Speaker 5 (06:10):
Hired I love that sneaky question but very indicative of
someone because I'm sure you ran across program directors who
would program a radio station like it was their record
collection that they had to play, right.
Speaker 3 (06:24):
That was always a dead spot, right, Yeah.
Speaker 4 (06:28):
Deep tracks in deeper and deeper and deeper tracks.
Speaker 3 (06:30):
Equals no ratings. Yeah right. How about the first concert
you ever went to?
Speaker 1 (06:37):
Oh?
Speaker 4 (06:38):
Boy, first concert? I was supposed to go to the
Beatles concert at Crosley Build in Cincinnati, but it got
rained out. We couldn't which had trip I won on
Wacky or WKLO, one of the two, But I think
I went to maybe maybe one of the Toys for
Talks concerts that WKLO had early in the seventies. Maybe yeah,
(07:00):
maybe late sixties, early seven and something like that. Or
they like, you know, the admission price, which I stole
that concept for both Washington and Atlanta when I was there,
but you know, you for the price with a toy
that lets you in. So that was and it's back
with artists five six, seven artists on the on the agenda,
you know.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
So was that the first bit of your not only
love for radio, but also love for giving back to
communities in terms of charities and doing that work.
Speaker 3 (07:30):
I mean, is that was that a first taste of
it for you? No?
Speaker 4 (07:33):
I didn't. That would be overthinking it for me at
my age back then. No, I was there to have
fun and listen to music and have fun with everybody else. Unfortunately,
I really wasn't geared to that till a little bit
later on in my life.
Speaker 3 (07:47):
But it's still stuck in your head obviously.
Speaker 4 (07:49):
Oh, yeah, Toys for Toss three concerts.
Speaker 3 (07:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (07:52):
I did this promotion at Z ninety three in Atlanta,
and I also did it at WPGC. The exact promotion, Yeah,
ripped it off from Johnny Randolph, those guys.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
So let's trace from the beginning as being fourteen. So
what was the first official job where you were collecting
a radio paycheck?
Speaker 4 (08:13):
Well, I should insert that at fifteen, I got a
hold of a I got a hold of a book
that had all the radio stations in Kentucky, and I
probably sent fifty letters at fifteen years old, handwritten letters
saying I can help your radio station, whatever a fifteen
year old kid would say, And I got an answer
(08:33):
from all those. Fifty One person answered me. It was
a lady at a station in Manchester, Kentucky. A Manchester,
Kentucky was about one hundred miles from Loyal. I had
no driver's license, I had no way to get there.
But I was just so excited that the person answered me.
I mean it was like, wow, I can do this.
So you know, a little by little at the first
(08:55):
job I probably had was maybe I think a ex
W and Jeffersonville, Indiana, or w E K Y and Richmond, Kentucky.
They all kind of run together. But the first really
cool job I had was WVOKA and Lexington. And that
was a heck of a media market radio station. Fabulous station.
Speaker 3 (09:16):
What made it so special.
Speaker 4 (09:19):
They had, First of all, they had a receptionist on Saturday.
Can you believe that I knew I was in high
cotton at that by the.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
Way, in an era and now which you know, there's
no receptionists most of the tunnel.
Speaker 4 (09:32):
No, no, no, They had pafted condition reports, they had
newsmall biles. They when we did the elections, Bill Steakland
was a general manager at that time, and Bill would
take all of us to dis jockeys out to the
Red Lion and eat pizza after the election night was open.
I mean, who does that now. I mean maybe they do,
(09:53):
but I don't know about it. I wish I did
know about it. But he'd take all the guys out
or pizza and coke or beer or whatever. You know,
we were drinking and it was it was just and
everybody contributed and we all went to the we all
did our remotes from the county fair, County Fair, and
it was just a fabulous radio station. And they made
They paid a lot of money in their day. It
(10:15):
was sold accumulus later for a lot of money too,
So they made it.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
What did you learn from like Bill Steaklin while you
were working for him?
Speaker 4 (10:26):
Well, for sake when we would probably be trying to
go to bed earlier than what Bill did. But I
haven't said that though he was he love to have fun.
He's a carrible guy.
Speaker 1 (10:35):
Man.
Speaker 4 (10:36):
He is a carnival guy. And the staff always loved him.
But he was he was amongst the people. Bill was
never in a ivory tower. He was like he was
walking the walk all the time. And and I've really
admired him, you know.
Speaker 3 (10:51):
So, yeah, we couldn't make.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
Yeah, So then what was next after after that? In
terms of job?
Speaker 4 (10:58):
Uh? Well, I probably say out about fifty tapes all
over the country looking for a job after I got
out of school and I went out of college at
Eastern Kentucky and Kiril and Saint Charles, Missouri hired me,
which was part of the Saint Louis Metro, and you know,
it was okay. I mean, they gave me an opportunity,
so what I can't say anything bad. So then about
(11:20):
six weeks later, Chris Bailey, he's passed now, but he
was putting on kb Q in Kansas City, and Steve
Rivers and I were the original staff at that station,
Top forty station in Kansas City. There's been an other
callers are still there, I think their country. But went
from there back to Louisville because I got homesick and
wanted to be back in time for University Kentucky football games.
(11:43):
And I back at wk LO, stayed there for about
nine months and went to Z ninety three in Atlanta,
and then I think things took off from.
Speaker 3 (11:53):
There and you went to Z ninety three in what role.
Speaker 4 (11:58):
Just says the night jock six and yep. Then eventually
I became music direcor and then I became programmers.
Speaker 3 (12:05):
So that your first PD job was Z ninety three.
Speaker 6 (12:08):
Yeah, and how fascinating that over time then that would
be one of the many stations that you would have
oversight over when you ran the cook Inlet properties.
Speaker 4 (12:20):
Yeah, yeah, I mean it gave me, actually, it gave
me an inside track because I knew so much about
the market and I knew so much about the radio
station that I could formulate my own ideas and kind
of guide it to where I wanted it to go.
But we had some really good prepds there. There's a
guy Chrys O'Kelly who was there. I don't know if
you remember Chris. And John Young was there. John Young's
(12:42):
been in it was famous in Nashville. He moved to
Atlanta and he had a great career at C ninety three.
So we had in Bob Case came in later on
after that. Bob was from Seattle. So we had some
really good program directors there.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
And when you first went to Z ninety three, was
cook Inlet the owners.
Speaker 4 (12:59):
Well, no, first media was media. This first media and
they were our sister stations were ZLX in Boston, Cuban, Seattle,
US ninety none, Chicago, WPGC Washington, and we had a
station in Provo, Utah and KF and k in Houston, Texas.
So you know, they built a really good, solid company.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
But you no doubt were focused ultimately on being a
program director from the fourteen year old that was sending
suggestions to that point, so you were focused that you
were not just going to work on the air.
Speaker 4 (13:36):
No, I really I didn't think it was good enough. Didn't.
And this is the only business I can do. I'm
a dismal failure at everything else I do but radio,
and to get ratings. I can get ratings, and I
knew what buttons to push with audiences to get ratings.
And I did realize early on when I got By
the time I got the WPGC, there are a lot
(13:56):
of the disc jockeys around and I went there this
program director. I got off the air and then probably
not maybe not in me. A year after that, KTSA
in San Antonio, which was a KTFM, also we're looking
for a programming oriented general manager. And I had just
at First Media, I had just kind of tapped or
(14:17):
cookedn Yeah, it was First Media. I had tapped and
I resigned and I went to KTSA, and I was
only twenty seven. So now it's a whole different ballgame.
I was starting all over from the very bottom of
the pile. You know, when you when you start, they
don't care. If you were a hotshot at PGC in Washington.
You tell us some business manager at KTSA about that,
(14:39):
and they'll say, I don't care. They don't care, right, No,
I don't care.
Speaker 2 (14:44):
But you knew to add the skill set to understand,
you know, what went into sales and with the whole
picture of being you know, the person coveting the FCC
license and doing what was right for the community. I mean,
you knew for your next move you needed to be
more well rounded.
Speaker 4 (15:03):
Basically, I would always get into a job and not
physically advertise it, but I would mentally think about what
my next job is going to be to try to
prepare myself for that. And I think after KTSA, I
went back to First Media at KFM K as general manager.
Great we had a great radio station back then. And
then cook Inlett took over and I became the president
(15:27):
book Inlet and now I'm getting into in front of
bankers and good bank meetings. So you know, I remember
it specifically. One time, the Whitney family was one of
our partners at cook and the Whitney family from New York,
and a gentleman there who ran the investment for the
Whitney family. We had a bank meeting and it was
(15:49):
in Dallas, I think, and I was doing this presentation
and I said, yeah, I mean, yeah, we had a
great year this year, but you know, first quarter is
not going to really be good.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
You know.
Speaker 4 (15:59):
I was trying to be honest and forthright, and the
gentleman pulled me inside. He goes, Dan, let me give
you a hint. There's no market for bad news. Yeah.
So I said, yes, sir, I got it. So, you know,
you learn those things along the way about how to
present things and do things. And fortunately for me, I
(16:21):
was such a young age, you know that I had
plenty of time where I wasn't in my fifties, so
in my thirties. So it worked out.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
Okay, But that's a pointed lesson that he gave to
you with those words.
Speaker 4 (16:31):
Well yeah, he only said ten words. Look I'm still
repeating them all these years later, I know how powerful.
Speaker 3 (16:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:39):
Yeah, So your time at cook Inlet certainly allowed you
further to understand the investment side that was going on
and understanding certainly the full picture of how to hire
the right people, because one of the things present company excluded.
You knew how to hire the people and the right people.
Speaker 4 (17:02):
I always tried to hire people who were far better
than me at certain areas. You know, nobody can be
great at everything. But I wanted the best disc jockeys
that money could buy. I wanted the best music directors
that I could get my hands on. And I would
always still be involved, but I try to let people
(17:23):
do their jobs. I think if you did have a
background check on me with former people than work for me,
they would say that, yeah, he would. He'll give you
the rope to whatever you need to do. I could
hold my hand up with say, I don't think I
ever micro manage you or any other program director, but
you know, sometimes if it doesn't work out and the
ratings aren't there, they're gone. I was never afraid to
(17:46):
do that. We asked. We used to when Chris Alberto
and I at CBS, we used to do a state
in the station call with the general manager and program
director and the station was lagging in ratings, what's your
plan at that plan didn't work, what's your next plan?
I kind of learned that from mel Karmas ornything. Meil
would always say, you better have a plan, and we
(18:06):
would come up with a plant and then it wouldn't work.
He goes, okay, now what's the plan. But you didn't
just not have a plan. Everybody had to have a
plan to success. So I learned that I'm your mail
credit for that one.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
Well we'll talk. I have a mail story, I remember.
But uh so cook Inlet ultimately sold to Infinity Broadcasting,
and was that something as that took shape? That was
a long process for that to happen. I remember there
was like a hold up period because of Howard Stern.
(18:39):
I remember that stations had to get you, the FCC
had to bless it and all of that.
Speaker 4 (18:45):
Well, that it didn't come to a way later on
Infinity CBS merger, but the cook out again is selling
off radio stations. And I knew that I had a
contract with a cocaine look. But I went to him.
I said, you know what you guys, I mean, I
can see what's going on. That's fine. I mean, you know,
take your money and go. You've been in this investment
five years now, It's worked out well and it's okay.
(19:07):
So I had to had to pay an exit fee
to them, not a lot, but a donation type thing
to the Native American Council or something. But then I
got a call from a headhunter at Westinghouse to go
to Group W and I had a couple of really
good meetings there and I left Cook and let to
go to Group WS as president.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
And then it would come come around where Infinity and
Group W would end up forming together, and.
Speaker 4 (19:37):
Not yet, not yet. What happened first was Westinghouse merged
with CBS, and I took Nancy Woodman's place. Nancy was
a president at CBS Radio. Lovely lady that and she
was getting ready to retire. But she really helped me
a lot, guided me and showed me where the bodies
were buried and who was going to make it, who
(19:57):
wasn't going to make it. Very helpful. I'm always she's
in the book about say that in the book. But
then after that, we then came along Infinity with CBS
and that merger. That was the merger that you know.
The FCC argued back and forth that they wanted their
billion of seven had fined started Infinity before they would
bless it so, and that's where that came.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
When you look at the time, the way the whole
landscape of radio was shifting with deregulation and just the
way you know, companies were becoming larger. Did any of
that in your mind? Were you fearful of any of
that at that point?
Speaker 4 (20:37):
Not at the time, because I didn't know what I
didn't know. I mean, it was always presented that you
got to grow, you got to get big, you got
to get bigger and bigger and bigger. Not sure if
that's really that might be true for business acquisitions, but
I'm not sure it's true for radio listening within a community.
But yet, the powerful group.
Speaker 2 (20:59):
Of stations that you would ultimately be in charge of
were dominant in every marketplace pretty much. There were not
many clunker stations, and they owned a large share of
the revenue, and they were fixtures in their community. Do
you sometimes reflect on that and that part of your
(21:21):
career and sort of think now where things are and
how you know, stations and a lot of markets, not
those stations, but stations and a lot of markets don't
mean what they used to mean.
Speaker 4 (21:34):
Well, yeah, I think a lot of I think as
an industry we've probably given up on brands. You know,
we put so much emphasis on brands, and now you
got I won't say a company, but I talked to
a person the other day that had a major, major market.
They had seventeen salespeople. That's it. They were doing eight
radio stations. They had, oh, they had everything. So how
(21:57):
can how can seventeen people cover all that all that inventory?
I don't think you can. And I think if I
were starting all over again, I would probably be. And
national sales aren't really a factor anymore. They're not like
they used to be. You know, at one point at CBS,
maybe we had twenty five percent of our revenue was
(22:19):
national sales, and that's dwindled down and pass dwindled down
to not very big. I did see a sale that
went through in Tulsa. I was really intrigued by this.
I needed to do more research on it. But Cox
had been in Tulsa ever since I've been in radio.
They all they owned that cluster there for as long
(22:39):
as I can remember them, and they sold it to
a local doctor that I believe he was an eye doctor.
But the eye doctor kind of grew up with the
station advertised on the station and was in love with
the stations. He didn't care about national business. He cared
about local brands because that's what built his business, the
(23:02):
local brands. So he bought it. And I think they
put in a longtime Cox programmer who had really good
business skills, and the way they went and I believe
I can't wait to dive in and see how they're doing.
I mean, it's going to take me a little due diligence,
but I think that for you don't have to you
don't have to own Oklahoma City, you don't have to
(23:24):
own Tulsa. Just own Tulsa, you know, just work on
your own general market. There's money to be made there.
But we'll see where the business goes. But I think
it trends away from national business and more towards local.
I mean, Jeff Warshaw's doing that with Connoisseur. He's really
Piper local now and I think he's right.
Speaker 2 (23:45):
And I think there's a new breed of owners that
are just like you said with the Tulsa example, and
the other example I think we can use is the
owner of WABC as well. That you're going to see
people who have other businesses who believe radio can support
that business. Maybe it's a little bit of a toy
(24:07):
for them because they're billionaires, or if they don't need
it financially, but they're going to use it to support
and grow their existing core business. I think you're going
to see, you know, owners of sports teams maybe go
down that road, and you know, others in business and communities.
(24:28):
I think that's the next generation of a lot of
ownership in my opinion, I don't know what you think.
Speaker 4 (24:33):
I think that anybody who is passionate about a radio
stations within a city would do that, would would go there.
Like you take John cas Matitius at DOE ABC. He
is a New Yorker, he loves New York and look
with that, Look what a job they've done. Is that
station hit aero point six? I believe I look the
other day and they're like a four to one or something.
(24:54):
But I listen to them almost every morning. I bet
I listened to them three times a week in morning
show to listen to. But I heard John on there
this morning. He saw on his own radio station just
having fun. Well I don't know if he's having fun
with him, but he was talking a lot and going
over what was going on in the city and talking
about the election and everything, and that that's what radio does,
that's what that's what they do, that's what that's really refreshing.
(25:18):
I got to be honest, Like in my car now, buzz,
I don't even listen to music anymore. I listened to
sports and talk and that's about it. I mean, I
want to listen to music. I'll go five other different places.
And what I don't want to hear is eighteen minutes
of commercials. I mean, we as an industry, we've shot
ourselves like that. I remember when we put Michael o'she
(25:39):
put Cube on the air in Seattle with six minutes,
and you didn't go over six minutes. That's the way
a lot of stations were back then. It was. It
was always like a maybe a ten to twelve minute
out of music time and then say, okay, twelve minutes
plus three promos plus blah blah blah. No, you got
twelve minutes to be out of music. You'd be in
music forty eight minutes. That's what you got to do
(26:01):
if you want to run three promos and you're going
to have to play nine units of commercials. Sixties so Anyway,
that's my theory.
Speaker 3 (26:07):
I don't know if you know you know Rashad Tobakawala.
Do you know him.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
He used to work for publicists and he's kind of
like a business guru strategist now and he refers to
the these as turds in the punch bowl. So I
think there's two turds in the punch bowl that are
going on here. One you mentioned earlier, the fact that
talent has become not as important and not as vital
(26:32):
for radio. And then the other third in the punch
bowl is the commercial load, which is really a frustrating
part of it because no one can quite figure out
really what to do about it.
Speaker 3 (26:46):
And I'm not sure they're going to.
Speaker 4 (26:48):
I think you hit it right on the hitd You
hit it right on the head. But that is I mean,
we could pontificate and debate all day long, but it's
going to come down to those two issues. No personality
and too many commercials. SIMP.
Speaker 1 (26:59):
We'll be right back with more of the Taking a
Walk Podcast. Welcome back to the Taking a Walk Podcast.
Speaker 2 (27:10):
So tell me what motivated you to write Fearless, The
Life and Times of a Media Maverick.
Speaker 4 (27:18):
Well, you could debate the media Maverick part. That wasn't
really my idea to put that word in there, But nevertheless,
I think it talks about just shifting from transition to transition.
You go from an overnight disc jockey to a program director,
to a general manager, to a CEO to what else
did I do? A chairman of profit and nonprofit companies?
(27:42):
To play by play basketball on a national network when
you never broadcast a game on TV in your life,
and just you know, typical going to acting. I was
in two episodes of House of Cards, but just all
the garbage that I've been through that it's just a
lot of funny stories and there are, and you can't
(28:02):
write a book without giving us some dark side. And
I have had some dark side in my life that
I did put in the book that is not very
pretty to look at. So if you're being honest, you
have to do that. But it's basically it talks a
lot about leadership versus non leadership. Talks a lot about
crazy promotions that I've done over the years, Like one
was back in San Antonio when Doug mo got fined.
(28:26):
Think you got fined ten thousand dollars by the NBA
there's something crazy that he did. We raised dough for
mo and we collected all these pennies, ten thousand dollars
worth of pennies, tried to take them to the NBA,
and of course they ignored us. But stuff like that,
I mean, I mean, who fries an egg on a
sidewalking more when it's one hundred degrees outside? Remember that? Yes,
(28:49):
did that? And they're sleep all the time.
Speaker 3 (28:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (28:52):
I remember a time when the song Short People by
Randy Newman came out. We had a short People's party
at the at the Marriott downtown d C. You know,
you couldn't. We had little pigs in a blanket. We'd
had six ounce beers and we had this, you know,
the statue at six Flaves or wherever it says you
can't get into this ride if you're shorter than this,
(29:14):
and we had that. We took that. We got one
of those cardboard cutouts from the amusement park and did
that at the door. I mean, I don't think you
could get by with that. Now that's no rule, but no.
But you know, constantly we're r on television radio and
that was our big dream. Every radio station's goal was
to somehow get.
Speaker 3 (29:34):
On the TV news.
Speaker 4 (29:35):
Yeah, we were always in the news, and whether it
was Boston or at Phoenix. And I remember one time
at Kala, Sex and Phoenix, which now is the number
one radio station. We put that station on the air
as KOPA back in top forty days. It's Steve Rivers
is a program director, but through a couple I think
Reid Record was the program director. Maybe I hope I'm
(29:55):
saying this right Reid. But April Fool's Day they did
Indian Uprising and all the Indians were coming out of
the mountains in Scottsdale and took over the radio station,
and they did such a great production job that it
sounded real. And the Scottsdale police empty their entire stations
(30:19):
up every piece of arsenal they could find to come
down there and surround the station, which we got in
trouble for as a hoax, you know. So yeah, yeah,
well you know who does that these days. But that
the spirit of those.
Speaker 3 (30:33):
Times exactly is what you know it was.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
It was fearless and people, of course, I'm sure checked
nudge nudge wink wink with the lawyers in the in
the in the company to.
Speaker 4 (30:48):
They we answered the FCC. We said, we had no idea.
We had no idea because if we knew it going in,
we would be in a lot more trouble than we were. Right,
We honestly didn't know and.
Speaker 3 (31:02):
We didn't know. So.
Speaker 2 (31:04):
But the key also back to getting on TV was
you needed to get the call letters on too, because
they could always do oh a local radio station did this,
Doug Mouth. But you needed to get the call letters on.
Speaker 4 (31:16):
Yeah. Of course.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
You know what was your take when electronic measurement came
into the business from you know, the paper diary.
Speaker 4 (31:27):
I told and I said this in a book that
I think I made a huge mistake backing PPM when
I did. And Randy Cabrick, God bless him, he would
always be on my case about this because I was
a proponent and Randy was on the other side of this,
and it got so bad CBS end up blocking in
(31:48):
front of our email systems. But he was he was,
but he was right. And Roy Shapiro told me, the
late Roy Shapiro, who is the KYW years and years
and he was running research for the time. He said, Dan,
take that money and put it back into the diary
systems and get yourself more diaries out there, you're going
to have a better measurement system. But no, And I
(32:11):
was so naive to think that a little meter that
you would put on your belt was going to pick
up every piece of audio flawlessly that it came in
contact with. And obviously Voltaire came along it proved that
wasn't the case. But and now, look, I think last
I've read Nilsen was going to an electronic e diary
(32:36):
email diary. They could have could have done that in
two thousand and six rather than what we've been through
with portable pupil meters. But I don't even know do
they even measure with anymore that can a six a
six year old is going to walk around with a meter,
or how about a seventy year old going to walk
around with a meter? Or a forty five year old
businessman is going to go to his his job with
(33:00):
the meter on. I don't believe that.
Speaker 2 (33:04):
Yeah, And I think the reality of the situation is
look sales is so tied to ratings, obviously, but I
believe you were someone who would say, look, ratings go up,
ratings go down. Back to what you were saying about brands,
your brand needs to sustain this and you still need
(33:26):
to hit budget, right.
Speaker 4 (33:27):
Yeah, and I think that the whole industry became obsessed
with minute to minute tune out, you know, through the
meter that and there was some and I did it
just like everybody else, but I'm not sure that that
was a really good long term strategy because we sacrifice
maybe brand issues. We sacrifice telling DJs that shut up.
(33:51):
And you know, if we ever, God don't forbid it.
We told pierro Berry shut up. I hope we never did,
but maybe we did. I don't know. I don't remember,
but you know, it just doesn't flow right with what
brands are trying to do.
Speaker 3 (34:07):
Did you enjoy going back through your career and writing
the book?
Speaker 4 (34:12):
You know, yes, the parts that were hardest were the
dark side parts. That was the hardest. But yeah, I
did because I wanted to have some kind of written
account out there. And I'm sure Jeff Schmullien did the
same thing when he wrote that. I don't I don't
know if it'll sell one hundred copies, it doesn't matter.
It's just everything is out there on paper. That's what
(34:33):
I wanted, you know. So I think at every it's
and it would be about a couple of hundred pages,
and it's got some funny stories about Stern, mel Moovez,
all true, different groups. I've had to work with, the
rock groups. It's all there, you know, just's it'll be fun.
(34:54):
You could read it in two nights. It's not going
to be a war and peace novel. It's study quick.
Speaker 2 (35:00):
Mail line that I referenced earlier. I remember he had
asked for me to listen to a particular radio station
and because it was suffering in the ratings, and his
line was, you haven't fixed the radio station yet. They
were able to fix the hubble telescope in a matter
(35:20):
of days.
Speaker 4 (35:22):
There's a story out there. I think it's true. I
wasn't at the company then with him. He had a
budget meeting and he hired some guy that climb climbed
Mount Everest. And the guy gets up on stage and
of course call the sales managers there and GM's are there.
The guy gets on stage and talking about that what
he went through, to grime and the blooding guts of
(35:43):
what it took to get up that mountain, and Meil
comes back on and says, all I'm asking you do
is make your damn budget. That's pretty good. That's pretty funny.
Speaker 3 (35:52):
It cuts right to the right to the core, no doubt.
Speaker 4 (35:54):
That seems pretty easy, doesn't it.
Speaker 1 (35:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:56):
Yeah, Now there's another facet I know that you've been
involved with. Are you still involved on the side of
sports betting in terms of, you know, the business of that.
Speaker 4 (36:07):
I bought into vs VSI in I balked about ten
percent of the company and became chairman of the company
in twenty nineteen, and we sold it to DraftKings in
twenty twenty one. So after that, the only other company
I'd invested in on the sports betting side was a
company called Juice Reel is j U I C E
(36:30):
R E e L. It's like a marketplace for people
who want to buy and sell their bets, is what
it's turned into. You know, like you see on Sunday morning,
you get here, the people on the radio saying, twenty
five dollars, let me give you my best best. There's
no accountability there. You don't know if they're winning or
losing or anything. They just get on air and talk
and tell you anything you want to hear. But with
(36:51):
Juice Reel you can actually track the performance of people
in the marketplace, and then you can decide if you
want to pay them or not. They're paid now. Subscription
is free. It's free app, so it's fun to check
out and play with it. I don't know if you've
been on sports, but if you do, you've really enjoy it.
Speaker 3 (37:09):
I have, but then it went south so I stopped.
Speaker 4 (37:14):
Don't feel bad because the average best better, I mean
the best betters. They only win at a fifty three
percent rate. It's not like guys are out there and
when women and men are out there making eighty percent picks.
That's not happening. So it don't feel bad. If you're
fifty one, you're ahead of the game.
Speaker 3 (37:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:34):
Now there is another part of what your life is about,
which involves doing.
Speaker 3 (37:39):
Play by play.
Speaker 2 (37:41):
That's obviously going back to your first loves and talk
about what that feels like and what you're doing there.
Speaker 4 (37:49):
It was It was hard. That may have been one
of the hardest things that I ever had overcome because
I would tease the guys Sean McMahons and his people about,
you know, your guys on CBS Sports Network, they're not
that good. And you know, back then when they first started,
they really weren't that good. They got a lot better now.
(38:10):
But Sean would listen to me. He goes all right,
And I was getting ready to retire, so I had
plenty of talent to do whatever. So Sean says, okay,
but I got to have a tape. You got to
give me a reel. I said okay, and I realized
I didn't have a reel. I had no reel. So
I go to my alma mater, Eastern Kentucky and begged
(38:31):
for a place on pressure roh. I got that. Then
I talked to my friend Ralph Hacker at University of
Kentucky who was a legendre and play by play, and
I got their engineers so let me borrow equipment for
a night. Then I went to Kyle Macy who played
for the Phoenix Suns who went to the UK, and
he was my color guy, and wah, I mean we
(38:52):
had a team. So I did that, and then I
still didn't have the video part. So I had to
go back to Eastern and get three or four engineers
to help me sink the video in the audio together.
And I presented that to Sean and his guys as
here's your real which really wasn't the true real. It
was kind of a maybe a half reel. So Sean says, okay,
(39:15):
all right, we'll give you guys, we'll give you a shot.
So my first game is going to be January of sixteen. Yeah,
and I was at East Carolina. They were playing USF
or South Florida. And now it's coming up on November,
and the games in early January. Most of myself always
(39:38):
came early in January or early February because there was
a football basketball override and all the really good guys
robbed doing that, so they needed help. So anyway, I realized,
I tell my wife, you know what, I have never
talked to a producer. I've never been inside of a
TV truck. I never talked to a director. I haven't
(40:00):
done anything except you get this real this thing that
I put together, and I bus I bet I lost
fifteen pounds, just sweat no break. So I started making
calls and think I better learn the ropes here. I'm
gonna I'm going to be laughed at. Monetarily, it didn't
make any difference, but my bosses were. It was kind
of not the joke, but it was talked about that
(40:22):
Dan was going to do play by play and they
would say, Oh God, what's that going to be like?
Speaker 3 (40:27):
You know?
Speaker 4 (40:27):
So anyway, I found a friend who knew of a
National Hockey League crew that could do it. So I
had to pay sixteen thousand dollars for the month of
December of fifteen, and I had like a five person
crew at six and o'clock in the morning because we
had to be out of there about eight. They worked
(40:47):
with me and had I had a lady as a
stand in, and I had a producer. I had a
director at camera guys, I had stat guys. So I
was for the month of December. I prepped life hell
and made it through the first season. I'm glad I
got invited back for the second. But eventually I went
on to do two years at Coppon State and then
(41:10):
now I'm doing Shnandoah. I'm in my second season at Shannandoah.
But it's a Division III school with a lot of
the really nice facility, nice setup, and they're a lot
nicer than the network people. Nicer to me.
Speaker 3 (41:25):
Isn't it fun doing something that's a little scary.
Speaker 4 (41:28):
Yeah, I think that's part of the book. It's fearless,
you know, it's people are afraid to try, and you
know you got to try. I don't care. You got
to try. You can't just sit back. You got to
give it a shot. But it then work, then that's okay.
You gave it a shot, You did your best. You know,
(41:49):
you go out and play the game, and you can
call your career over when you call it over. Nobody
else can call your career over for you. Let's say
you get fired at tomorrow from radio station. That's not
the end of your career. Careers over when you say
it's over, not somebody else. So look with yourself. You're
not working directly in radio. Maybe if you're doing all
these other things now, so your career is not over.
(42:11):
When was the last time you had a radio john
day to day?
Speaker 3 (42:14):
Oh, end of twenty nineteen.
Speaker 4 (42:17):
Okay, there you go. But when twenty nineteen came and
you decided or they decided or whoever decided, that wasn't
going to be anymore, you didn't call your career over.
You said, well, no, it's not over. And look at
you now, you're doing all these other things. Is it
the same as what you were doing? Maybe not, but
you're in the game still, You're in the game.
Speaker 2 (42:37):
Well, that's really powerful advice for those who are being
displaced often in the business, because I worry about that
generation of people who don't know what the next thing
is and they're calling it over.
Speaker 4 (42:49):
Let me add one other thing. I was talking to
John Saint Augustine. John's in Chicago. He worked at Jubbigg
and he worked for the Oprah Network. You told me
that he was having lunch with a from the Tribune
and the guy told him that if you can write,
if you can announce or produce, and you know production
skills with the equipment on how to use that stuff,
(43:12):
you're going to have a job as long as you want.
Because now audiobooks are here and all these other different
avenues are here. But you need those three basic skills.
And you look at the people who have been displaced.
They've got those three skills. I know they do. It's
just a matter of applying them in new new avenues.
Speaker 3 (43:30):
Yeah, well said well in closing, I remember fondly when
I would go visit you at your office there outside
of DC.
Speaker 2 (43:40):
Once in a while we would literally go take a
walk and grab a cup of coffee around the corner there,
and those are always great places to explore ideas and
thoughts and conversation. So if I was taking that walk
with you, I would be asking you the final question,
which would be what leadership advice would you give right
(44:01):
now to those still in positions of leadership in the
radio business.
Speaker 4 (44:07):
I think two things. One is, never get too high
on your highs or never get too low on your lows.
That are going to happen to you. And there'll be
people in your highs that are gonna come up and say,
buzz man, you're You're the best man. Nobody's better than you,
buzz and you just got to mentally say thanks, but
don't believe them. Just keep moving. And then when it
(44:27):
when you get through the lows, tell me an NFL
coach that hasn't been fired or let go. I mean,
they're all that's all over the place, and what do
they do. Look at Andy Reid, the guy that got
thrown out of Philadelphia. He's Kansas City. He's like a icon,
you know, he's a big dude, and it just evolves.
I think the second thing you have to keep in mind,
(44:49):
what goes up will come down. You don't go up
and up and up and up forever you go up
you go down, you go back up, you go back down,
and it put things in perspective.
Speaker 3 (45:01):
I believe Dan Mason.
Speaker 2 (45:03):
I'm so grateful for everything over the years, and so
grateful to have you on and certainly be connected with
you on Taking a Walk.
Speaker 3 (45:11):
And I'm just I'm so appreciative of knowing you and
having our time.
Speaker 4 (45:17):
I just feel the saying, Buzz. I've always enjoyed talking
with you in your terrific programmer, and I love program directors.
Speaker 2 (45:25):
And I'm lucky I didn't answer that question that I
had two thousand records in my in my record collection because.
Speaker 3 (45:33):
I didn't really how many did you have? A four hundred?
Speaker 4 (45:38):
Okay, how many did you actually play?
Speaker 3 (45:42):
A two hundred?
Speaker 4 (45:43):
Yeah? There you go. Cut your own playlist down exactly.
Speaker 3 (45:47):
Play it at home, Yeah, play that music at home. Yeah.
Thanks Dan, Thank you, Buzz.
Speaker 1 (45:55):
Thanks for listening to this episode of the Taking a
Walk podcast. Sure and other episodes with your friends and
follow us so you never miss an episode. Taking a
Walk is available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, and
wherever you get your podcasts.
Taking a Walk.
Speaker 2 (00:01):
Welcome to the Taking a Walk podcast on Buzz Night,
And on today's episode, we're going to take a step
back into my radio history and we're going to share
a conversation with my former boss, Dan Mason, the legendary
broadcasting executive. He steered the nation's largest radio groups through
some of the most transformative years in the industry's history.
(00:24):
Dan's career in radio spans generations.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
From his early days learning the business from the.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Ground up to leading a portfolio of iconic stations across
America during a time when the entire medium was being
redefined by consolidation, new technology, and changing listener habits. In
this conversation, we talk about the art of running great
radio stations, the personalities and programmers who made them unforgettable,
the business decisions that shaped an era, and what Dan
(00:52):
learned about leadership during times of massive industry change. Whether
you lived through radio's golden age or your discovering its
history now, Dan Mason's story is more than just broadcasting.
It's about vision, resilience, and the power of connecting with audiences.
So let's talk with Dan Mason next on Taking a Walk.
Speaker 3 (01:17):
Taking a Walk, Well, this is a treat. Welcome to
Taking a Walk, Dan Mason.
Speaker 4 (01:22):
Glad to be here, buzz a long time, you'll see,
but I'm always been a fan.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Oh the same here, Dan, So you are not going
to be able to escape our first opening question, which is,
actually you'll appreciate this. It's it's turned out to be
my benchmark for the Taking a Walk podcast, where I
opened it and I asked guests the question if you
(01:47):
could take a walk with somebody living or dad, who
would you take a walk with?
Speaker 3 (01:51):
And maybe where would you take that walk with him?
Speaker 4 (01:54):
You know when I saw that on the sheet here,
I look at that and I kind of had to
smile and I had to do some thinking. But at
the end of the bought process, I think I would
like to walk with Gordon mclindon. And some of the
audience may not know who Gordon Mclinton is. I mean
time has passed by, but in my estimation he was
(02:15):
like the godfather of personality radio. Not necessarily top forty
radio because there's a lot of people that would claim
that thing, but how to get personalities on the radio
and little twist and turns with creating jingles, contests, promotion,
traffic vehicles, you name it. That's and I don't care
(02:35):
where I walk, I'll go anywhere as far as that goes.
But I would like to talk to him about how
he created and what his thought processes were about personality radio.
Not top forty because you know there's a lot of
people that can claim that, but I'm really be interested
in his philosophy on what he thought about contests because
(02:56):
nobody was doing that. I remember if Wa ky Wiman
m clinda owned that station. Back in the sixties, they
came out with color radio. I mean, who would have
ever thought that? And obviously it was in contrast to
color TV. You wanted to make it more bright, more fun.
But that's who I would go with. And like I
don't care where I go, I walk on a bed
(03:19):
of nails, I don't care.
Speaker 3 (03:21):
Would you reflect on them the current state of things?
Speaker 4 (03:26):
Yeah, yeah, I probably would because I'm disappointed, like many
of us in the business that you know, the personalities
have been drained from the radio and another generation either
hasn't been taught or hasn't been picked up on about
what went into that. But you know, I'm even as
(03:48):
a kid. We can get into this a little bit later,
but I listened to Wacky and Looible. That was my station.
And I remember, at fourteen years old, Johnny Randolph, who
was a program director, was taking me to a drug
store for orange juice because I was just into everything
they did. And my image of them was disc jockey's
(04:11):
smoking cigarettes and wearying, wearing the purple velvet jacket and
you know, having fifteen girls around. But you know, and
it's funny that I stood in front of that window
at WKLO and that was where I eventually ended up.
But just you know, begging what somebody come let me in.
(04:34):
It's thirty two degrees and snowing out here. Of course
nobody let me in. But I even with Randolph, what
I would do buzz I would write letters and critique
the radio station, and I would tell him the afternoon
guy should go to all nights, the all night person
needs to do morning drive, and blah blah blah blah blah.
And can you imagine if he ever told those poor
(04:55):
guys that this dumb fourteen year old kid was dictating
the line up at the radio station. But oh it was.
But I only because I loved the business. I'm known
ever since I was twelve years old. I wanted to
do somehow be in radio. I'm still going to radio
anybody let me on, so I do it all the time.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
Well, we're going to talk about that, and we got
to talk about the book also, Fearless, the Life and
Times of a Media Mavericks, So we're going to get
into that obviously the context of it. But before your
love of radio, you had to have a connection, certainly
with music.
Speaker 3 (05:31):
Before that, I'm thinking, is that true?
Speaker 4 (05:33):
Well, yeah, I mean I was a top forty junkie.
You know, I bought my first record was I Get
Around by the Beach Boys. But yeah, I mean I
loved hits by the Hits, and I didn't want to
hear anything past the top forty. You know, don't give
me forty five or fifty. I don't want to hear that.
So it's really funny when I would interview program directors,
(05:55):
I would say, let me ask you, what's your record
collection like? And the people who would say, oh, I've
got two thousand albums, I'd say, next, I'm not going
to hire you. Not a way that look for the
I look for the person who said, well I really
don't have very many. I mean, you're.
Speaker 5 (06:10):
Hired I love that sneaky question but very indicative of
someone because I'm sure you ran across program directors who
would program a radio station like it was their record
collection that they had to play, right.
Speaker 3 (06:24):
That was always a dead spot, right, Yeah.
Speaker 4 (06:28):
Deep tracks in deeper and deeper and deeper tracks.
Speaker 3 (06:30):
Equals no ratings. Yeah right. How about the first concert
you ever went to?
Speaker 1 (06:37):
Oh?
Speaker 4 (06:38):
Boy, first concert? I was supposed to go to the
Beatles concert at Crosley Build in Cincinnati, but it got
rained out. We couldn't which had trip I won on
Wacky or WKLO, one of the two, But I think
I went to maybe maybe one of the Toys for
Talks concerts that WKLO had early in the seventies. Maybe yeah,
(07:00):
maybe late sixties, early seven and something like that. Or
they like, you know, the admission price, which I stole
that concept for both Washington and Atlanta when I was there,
but you know, you for the price with a toy
that lets you in. So that was and it's back
with artists five six, seven artists on the on the agenda,
you know.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
So was that the first bit of your not only
love for radio, but also love for giving back to
communities in terms of charities and doing that work.
Speaker 3 (07:30):
I mean, is that was that a first taste of
it for you? No?
Speaker 4 (07:33):
I didn't. That would be overthinking it for me at
my age back then. No, I was there to have
fun and listen to music and have fun with everybody else. Unfortunately,
I really wasn't geared to that till a little bit
later on in my life.
Speaker 3 (07:47):
But it's still stuck in your head obviously.
Speaker 4 (07:49):
Oh, yeah, Toys for Toss three concerts.
Speaker 3 (07:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (07:52):
I did this promotion at Z ninety three in Atlanta,
and I also did it at WPGC. The exact promotion, Yeah,
ripped it off from Johnny Randolph, those guys.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
So let's trace from the beginning as being fourteen. So
what was the first official job where you were collecting
a radio paycheck?
Speaker 4 (08:13):
Well, I should insert that at fifteen, I got a
hold of a I got a hold of a book
that had all the radio stations in Kentucky, and I
probably sent fifty letters at fifteen years old, handwritten letters
saying I can help your radio station, whatever a fifteen
year old kid would say, And I got an answer
(08:33):
from all those. Fifty One person answered me. It was
a lady at a station in Manchester, Kentucky. A Manchester,
Kentucky was about one hundred miles from Loyal. I had
no driver's license, I had no way to get there.
But I was just so excited that the person answered me.
I mean it was like, wow, I can do this.
So you know, a little by little at the first
(08:55):
job I probably had was maybe I think a ex
W and Jeffersonville, Indiana, or w E K Y and Richmond, Kentucky.
They all kind of run together. But the first really
cool job I had was WVOKA and Lexington. And that
was a heck of a media market radio station. Fabulous station.
Speaker 3 (09:16):
What made it so special.
Speaker 4 (09:19):
They had, First of all, they had a receptionist on Saturday.
Can you believe that I knew I was in high
cotton at that by the.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
Way, in an era and now which you know, there's
no receptionists most of the tunnel.
Speaker 4 (09:32):
No, no, no, They had pafted condition reports, they had
newsmall biles. They when we did the elections, Bill Steakland
was a general manager at that time, and Bill would
take all of us to dis jockeys out to the
Red Lion and eat pizza after the election night was open.
I mean, who does that now. I mean maybe they do,
(09:53):
but I don't know about it. I wish I did
know about it. But he'd take all the guys out
or pizza and coke or beer or whatever. You know,
we were drinking and it was it was just and
everybody contributed and we all went to the we all
did our remotes from the county fair, County Fair, and
it was just a fabulous radio station. And they made
They paid a lot of money in their day. It
(10:15):
was sold accumulus later for a lot of money too,
So they made it.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
What did you learn from like Bill Steaklin while you
were working for him?
Speaker 4 (10:26):
Well, for sake when we would probably be trying to
go to bed earlier than what Bill did. But I
haven't said that though he was he love to have fun.
He's a carrible guy.
Speaker 1 (10:35):
Man.
Speaker 4 (10:36):
He is a carnival guy. And the staff always loved him.
But he was he was amongst the people. Bill was
never in a ivory tower. He was like he was
walking the walk all the time. And and I've really
admired him, you know.
Speaker 3 (10:51):
So, yeah, we couldn't make.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
Yeah, So then what was next after after that? In
terms of job?
Speaker 4 (10:58):
Uh? Well, I probably say out about fifty tapes all
over the country looking for a job after I got
out of school and I went out of college at
Eastern Kentucky and Kiril and Saint Charles, Missouri hired me,
which was part of the Saint Louis Metro, and you know,
it was okay. I mean, they gave me an opportunity,
so what I can't say anything bad. So then about
(11:20):
six weeks later, Chris Bailey, he's passed now, but he
was putting on kb Q in Kansas City, and Steve
Rivers and I were the original staff at that station,
Top forty station in Kansas City. There's been an other
callers are still there, I think their country. But went
from there back to Louisville because I got homesick and
wanted to be back in time for University Kentucky football games.
(11:43):
And I back at wk LO, stayed there for about
nine months and went to Z ninety three in Atlanta,
and then I think things took off from.
Speaker 3 (11:53):
There and you went to Z ninety three in what role.
Speaker 4 (11:58):
Just says the night jock six and yep. Then eventually
I became music direcor and then I became programmers.
Speaker 3 (12:05):
So that your first PD job was Z ninety three.
Speaker 6 (12:08):
Yeah, and how fascinating that over time then that would
be one of the many stations that you would have
oversight over when you ran the cook Inlet properties.
Speaker 4 (12:20):
Yeah, yeah, I mean it gave me, actually, it gave
me an inside track because I knew so much about
the market and I knew so much about the radio
station that I could formulate my own ideas and kind
of guide it to where I wanted it to go.
But we had some really good prepds there. There's a
guy Chrys O'Kelly who was there. I don't know if
you remember Chris. And John Young was there. John Young's
(12:42):
been in it was famous in Nashville. He moved to
Atlanta and he had a great career at C ninety three.
So we had in Bob Case came in later on
after that. Bob was from Seattle. So we had some
really good program directors there.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
And when you first went to Z ninety three, was
cook Inlet the owners.
Speaker 4 (12:59):
Well, no, first media was media. This first media and
they were our sister stations were ZLX in Boston, Cuban, Seattle,
US ninety none, Chicago, WPGC Washington, and we had a
station in Provo, Utah and KF and k in Houston, Texas.
So you know, they built a really good, solid company.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
But you no doubt were focused ultimately on being a
program director from the fourteen year old that was sending
suggestions to that point, so you were focused that you
were not just going to work on the air.
Speaker 4 (13:36):
No, I really I didn't think it was good enough. Didn't.
And this is the only business I can do. I'm
a dismal failure at everything else I do but radio,
and to get ratings. I can get ratings, and I
knew what buttons to push with audiences to get ratings.
And I did realize early on when I got By
the time I got the WPGC, there are a lot
(13:56):
of the disc jockeys around and I went there this
program director. I got off the air and then probably
not maybe not in me. A year after that, KTSA
in San Antonio, which was a KTFM, also we're looking
for a programming oriented general manager. And I had just
at First Media, I had just kind of tapped or
(14:17):
cookedn Yeah, it was First Media. I had tapped and
I resigned and I went to KTSA, and I was
only twenty seven. So now it's a whole different ballgame.
I was starting all over from the very bottom of
the pile. You know, when you when you start, they
don't care. If you were a hotshot at PGC in Washington.
You tell us some business manager at KTSA about that,
(14:39):
and they'll say, I don't care. They don't care, right, No,
I don't care.
Speaker 2 (14:44):
But you knew to add the skill set to understand,
you know, what went into sales and with the whole
picture of being you know, the person coveting the FCC
license and doing what was right for the community. I mean,
you knew for your next move you needed to be
more well rounded.
Speaker 4 (15:03):
Basically, I would always get into a job and not
physically advertise it, but I would mentally think about what
my next job is going to be to try to
prepare myself for that. And I think after KTSA, I
went back to First Media at KFM K as general manager.
Great we had a great radio station back then. And
then cook Inlett took over and I became the president
(15:27):
book Inlet and now I'm getting into in front of
bankers and good bank meetings. So you know, I remember
it specifically. One time, the Whitney family was one of
our partners at cook and the Whitney family from New York,
and a gentleman there who ran the investment for the
Whitney family. We had a bank meeting and it was
(15:49):
in Dallas, I think, and I was doing this presentation
and I said, yeah, I mean, yeah, we had a
great year this year, but you know, first quarter is
not going to really be good.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
You know.
Speaker 4 (15:59):
I was trying to be honest and forthright, and the
gentleman pulled me inside. He goes, Dan, let me give
you a hint. There's no market for bad news. Yeah.
So I said, yes, sir, I got it. So, you know,
you learn those things along the way about how to
present things and do things. And fortunately for me, I
(16:21):
was such a young age, you know that I had
plenty of time where I wasn't in my fifties, so
in my thirties. So it worked out.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
Okay, But that's a pointed lesson that he gave to
you with those words.
Speaker 4 (16:31):
Well yeah, he only said ten words. Look I'm still
repeating them all these years later, I know how powerful.
Speaker 3 (16:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:39):
Yeah, So your time at cook Inlet certainly allowed you
further to understand the investment side that was going on
and understanding certainly the full picture of how to hire
the right people, because one of the things present company excluded.
You knew how to hire the people and the right people.
Speaker 4 (17:02):
I always tried to hire people who were far better
than me at certain areas. You know, nobody can be
great at everything. But I wanted the best disc jockeys
that money could buy. I wanted the best music directors
that I could get my hands on. And I would
always still be involved, but I try to let people
(17:23):
do their jobs. I think if you did have a
background check on me with former people than work for me,
they would say that, yeah, he would. He'll give you
the rope to whatever you need to do. I could
hold my hand up with say, I don't think I
ever micro manage you or any other program director, but
you know, sometimes if it doesn't work out and the
ratings aren't there, they're gone. I was never afraid to
(17:46):
do that. We asked. We used to when Chris Alberto
and I at CBS, we used to do a state
in the station call with the general manager and program
director and the station was lagging in ratings, what's your
plan at that plan didn't work, what's your next plan?
I kind of learned that from mel Karmas ornything. Meil
would always say, you better have a plan, and we
(18:06):
would come up with a plant and then it wouldn't work.
He goes, okay, now what's the plan. But you didn't
just not have a plan. Everybody had to have a
plan to success. So I learned that I'm your mail
credit for that one.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
Well we'll talk. I have a mail story, I remember.
But uh so cook Inlet ultimately sold to Infinity Broadcasting,
and was that something as that took shape? That was
a long process for that to happen. I remember there
was like a hold up period because of Howard Stern.
(18:39):
I remember that stations had to get you, the FCC
had to bless it and all of that.
Speaker 4 (18:45):
Well, that it didn't come to a way later on
Infinity CBS merger, but the cook out again is selling
off radio stations. And I knew that I had a
contract with a cocaine look. But I went to him.
I said, you know what you guys, I mean, I
can see what's going on. That's fine. I mean, you know,
take your money and go. You've been in this investment
five years now, It's worked out well and it's okay.
(19:07):
So I had to had to pay an exit fee
to them, not a lot, but a donation type thing
to the Native American Council or something. But then I
got a call from a headhunter at Westinghouse to go
to Group W and I had a couple of really
good meetings there and I left Cook and let to
go to Group WS as president.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
And then it would come come around where Infinity and
Group W would end up forming together, and.
Speaker 4 (19:37):
Not yet, not yet. What happened first was Westinghouse merged
with CBS, and I took Nancy Woodman's place. Nancy was
a president at CBS Radio. Lovely lady that and she
was getting ready to retire. But she really helped me
a lot, guided me and showed me where the bodies
were buried and who was going to make it, who
(19:57):
wasn't going to make it. Very helpful. I'm always she's
in the book about say that in the book. But
then after that, we then came along Infinity with CBS
and that merger. That was the merger that you know.
The FCC argued back and forth that they wanted their
billion of seven had fined started Infinity before they would
bless it so, and that's where that came.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
When you look at the time, the way the whole
landscape of radio was shifting with deregulation and just the
way you know, companies were becoming larger. Did any of
that in your mind? Were you fearful of any of
that at that point?
Speaker 4 (20:37):
Not at the time, because I didn't know what I
didn't know. I mean, it was always presented that you
got to grow, you got to get big, you got
to get bigger and bigger and bigger. Not sure if
that's really that might be true for business acquisitions, but
I'm not sure it's true for radio listening within a community.
But yet, the powerful group.
Speaker 2 (20:59):
Of stations that you would ultimately be in charge of
were dominant in every marketplace pretty much. There were not
many clunker stations, and they owned a large share of
the revenue, and they were fixtures in their community. Do
you sometimes reflect on that and that part of your
(21:21):
career and sort of think now where things are and
how you know, stations and a lot of markets, not
those stations, but stations and a lot of markets don't
mean what they used to mean.
Speaker 4 (21:34):
Well, yeah, I think a lot of I think as
an industry we've probably given up on brands. You know,
we put so much emphasis on brands, and now you
got I won't say a company, but I talked to
a person the other day that had a major, major market.
They had seventeen salespeople. That's it. They were doing eight
radio stations. They had, oh, they had everything. So how
(21:57):
can how can seventeen people cover all that all that inventory?
I don't think you can. And I think if I
were starting all over again, I would probably be. And
national sales aren't really a factor anymore. They're not like
they used to be. You know, at one point at CBS,
maybe we had twenty five percent of our revenue was
(22:19):
national sales, and that's dwindled down and pass dwindled down
to not very big. I did see a sale that
went through in Tulsa. I was really intrigued by this.
I needed to do more research on it. But Cox
had been in Tulsa ever since I've been in radio.
They all they owned that cluster there for as long
(22:39):
as I can remember them, and they sold it to
a local doctor that I believe he was an eye doctor.
But the eye doctor kind of grew up with the
station advertised on the station and was in love with
the stations. He didn't care about national business. He cared
about local brands because that's what built his business, the
(23:02):
local brands. So he bought it. And I think they
put in a longtime Cox programmer who had really good
business skills, and the way they went and I believe
I can't wait to dive in and see how they're doing.
I mean, it's going to take me a little due diligence,
but I think that for you don't have to you
don't have to own Oklahoma City, you don't have to
(23:24):
own Tulsa. Just own Tulsa, you know, just work on
your own general market. There's money to be made there.
But we'll see where the business goes. But I think
it trends away from national business and more towards local.
I mean, Jeff Warshaw's doing that with Connoisseur. He's really
Piper local now and I think he's right.
Speaker 2 (23:45):
And I think there's a new breed of owners that
are just like you said with the Tulsa example, and
the other example I think we can use is the
owner of WABC as well. That you're going to see
people who have other businesses who believe radio can support
that business. Maybe it's a little bit of a toy
(24:07):
for them because they're billionaires, or if they don't need
it financially, but they're going to use it to support
and grow their existing core business. I think you're going
to see, you know, owners of sports teams maybe go
down that road, and you know, others in business and communities.
(24:28):
I think that's the next generation of a lot of
ownership in my opinion, I don't know what you think.
Speaker 4 (24:33):
I think that anybody who is passionate about a radio
stations within a city would do that, would would go there.
Like you take John cas Matitius at DOE ABC. He
is a New Yorker, he loves New York and look
with that, Look what a job they've done. Is that
station hit aero point six? I believe I look the
other day and they're like a four to one or something.
(24:54):
But I listen to them almost every morning. I bet
I listened to them three times a week in morning
show to listen to. But I heard John on there
this morning. He saw on his own radio station just
having fun. Well I don't know if he's having fun
with him, but he was talking a lot and going
over what was going on in the city and talking
about the election and everything, and that that's what radio does,
that's what that's what they do, that's what that's really refreshing.
(25:18):
I got to be honest, Like in my car now, buzz,
I don't even listen to music anymore. I listened to
sports and talk and that's about it. I mean, I
want to listen to music. I'll go five other different places.
And what I don't want to hear is eighteen minutes
of commercials. I mean, we as an industry, we've shot
ourselves like that. I remember when we put Michael o'she
(25:39):
put Cube on the air in Seattle with six minutes,
and you didn't go over six minutes. That's the way
a lot of stations were back then. It was. It
was always like a maybe a ten to twelve minute
out of music time and then say, okay, twelve minutes
plus three promos plus blah blah blah. No, you got
twelve minutes to be out of music. You'd be in
music forty eight minutes. That's what you got to do
(26:01):
if you want to run three promos and you're going
to have to play nine units of commercials. Sixties so Anyway,
that's my theory.
Speaker 3 (26:07):
I don't know if you know you know Rashad Tobakawala.
Do you know him.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
He used to work for publicists and he's kind of
like a business guru strategist now and he refers to
the these as turds in the punch bowl. So I
think there's two turds in the punch bowl that are
going on here. One you mentioned earlier, the fact that
talent has become not as important and not as vital
(26:32):
for radio. And then the other third in the punch
bowl is the commercial load, which is really a frustrating
part of it because no one can quite figure out
really what to do about it.
Speaker 3 (26:46):
And I'm not sure they're going to.
Speaker 4 (26:48):
I think you hit it right on the hitd You
hit it right on the head. But that is I mean,
we could pontificate and debate all day long, but it's
going to come down to those two issues. No personality
and too many commercials. SIMP.
Speaker 1 (26:59):
We'll be right back with more of the Taking a
Walk Podcast. Welcome back to the Taking a Walk Podcast.
Speaker 2 (27:10):
So tell me what motivated you to write Fearless, The
Life and Times of a Media Maverick.
Speaker 4 (27:18):
Well, you could debate the media Maverick part. That wasn't
really my idea to put that word in there, But nevertheless,
I think it talks about just shifting from transition to transition.
You go from an overnight disc jockey to a program director,
to a general manager, to a CEO to what else
did I do? A chairman of profit and nonprofit companies?
(27:42):
To play by play basketball on a national network when
you never broadcast a game on TV in your life,
and just you know, typical going to acting. I was
in two episodes of House of Cards, but just all
the garbage that I've been through that it's just a
lot of funny stories and there are, and you can't
(28:02):
write a book without giving us some dark side. And
I have had some dark side in my life that
I did put in the book that is not very
pretty to look at. So if you're being honest, you
have to do that. But it's basically it talks a
lot about leadership versus non leadership. Talks a lot about
crazy promotions that I've done over the years, Like one
was back in San Antonio when Doug mo got fined.
(28:26):
Think you got fined ten thousand dollars by the NBA
there's something crazy that he did. We raised dough for
mo and we collected all these pennies, ten thousand dollars
worth of pennies, tried to take them to the NBA,
and of course they ignored us. But stuff like that,
I mean, I mean, who fries an egg on a
sidewalking more when it's one hundred degrees outside? Remember that? Yes,
(28:49):
did that? And they're sleep all the time.
Speaker 3 (28:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (28:52):
I remember a time when the song Short People by
Randy Newman came out. We had a short People's party
at the at the Marriott downtown d C. You know,
you couldn't. We had little pigs in a blanket. We'd
had six ounce beers and we had this, you know,
the statue at six Flaves or wherever it says you
can't get into this ride if you're shorter than this,
(29:14):
and we had that. We took that. We got one
of those cardboard cutouts from the amusement park and did
that at the door. I mean, I don't think you
could get by with that. Now that's no rule, but no.
But you know, constantly we're r on television radio and
that was our big dream. Every radio station's goal was
to somehow get.
Speaker 3 (29:34):
On the TV news.
Speaker 4 (29:35):
Yeah, we were always in the news, and whether it
was Boston or at Phoenix. And I remember one time
at Kala, Sex and Phoenix, which now is the number
one radio station. We put that station on the air
as KOPA back in top forty days. It's Steve Rivers
is a program director, but through a couple I think
Reid Record was the program director. Maybe I hope I'm
(29:55):
saying this right Reid. But April Fool's Day they did
Indian Uprising and all the Indians were coming out of
the mountains in Scottsdale and took over the radio station,
and they did such a great production job that it
sounded real. And the Scottsdale police empty their entire stations
(30:19):
up every piece of arsenal they could find to come
down there and surround the station, which we got in
trouble for as a hoax, you know. So yeah, yeah,
well you know who does that these days. But that
the spirit of those.
Speaker 3 (30:33):
Times exactly is what you know it was.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
It was fearless and people, of course, I'm sure checked
nudge nudge wink wink with the lawyers in the in
the in the company to.
Speaker 4 (30:48):
They we answered the FCC. We said, we had no idea.
We had no idea because if we knew it going in,
we would be in a lot more trouble than we were. Right,
We honestly didn't know and.
Speaker 3 (31:02):
We didn't know. So.
Speaker 2 (31:04):
But the key also back to getting on TV was
you needed to get the call letters on too, because
they could always do oh a local radio station did this,
Doug Mouth. But you needed to get the call letters on.
Speaker 4 (31:16):
Yeah. Of course.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
You know what was your take when electronic measurement came
into the business from you know, the paper diary.
Speaker 4 (31:27):
I told and I said this in a book that
I think I made a huge mistake backing PPM when
I did. And Randy Cabrick, God bless him, he would
always be on my case about this because I was
a proponent and Randy was on the other side of this,
and it got so bad CBS end up blocking in
(31:48):
front of our email systems. But he was he was,
but he was right. And Roy Shapiro told me, the
late Roy Shapiro, who is the KYW years and years
and he was running research for the time. He said, Dan,
take that money and put it back into the diary
systems and get yourself more diaries out there, you're going
to have a better measurement system. But no, And I
(32:11):
was so naive to think that a little meter that
you would put on your belt was going to pick
up every piece of audio flawlessly that it came in
contact with. And obviously Voltaire came along it proved that
wasn't the case. But and now, look, I think last
I've read Nilsen was going to an electronic e diary
(32:36):
email diary. They could have could have done that in
two thousand and six rather than what we've been through
with portable pupil meters. But I don't even know do
they even measure with anymore that can a six a
six year old is going to walk around with a meter,
or how about a seventy year old going to walk
around with a meter? Or a forty five year old
businessman is going to go to his his job with
(33:00):
the meter on. I don't believe that.
Speaker 2 (33:04):
Yeah, And I think the reality of the situation is
look sales is so tied to ratings, obviously, but I
believe you were someone who would say, look, ratings go up,
ratings go down. Back to what you were saying about brands,
your brand needs to sustain this and you still need
(33:26):
to hit budget, right.
Speaker 4 (33:27):
Yeah, and I think that the whole industry became obsessed
with minute to minute tune out, you know, through the
meter that and there was some and I did it
just like everybody else, but I'm not sure that that
was a really good long term strategy because we sacrifice
maybe brand issues. We sacrifice telling DJs that shut up.
(33:51):
And you know, if we ever, God don't forbid it.
We told pierro Berry shut up. I hope we never did,
but maybe we did. I don't know. I don't remember,
but you know, it just doesn't flow right with what
brands are trying to do.
Speaker 3 (34:07):
Did you enjoy going back through your career and writing
the book?
Speaker 4 (34:12):
You know, yes, the parts that were hardest were the
dark side parts. That was the hardest. But yeah, I
did because I wanted to have some kind of written
account out there. And I'm sure Jeff Schmullien did the
same thing when he wrote that. I don't I don't
know if it'll sell one hundred copies, it doesn't matter.
It's just everything is out there on paper. That's what
(34:33):
I wanted, you know. So I think at every it's
and it would be about a couple of hundred pages,
and it's got some funny stories about Stern, mel Moovez,
all true, different groups. I've had to work with, the
rock groups. It's all there, you know, just's it'll be fun.
(34:54):
You could read it in two nights. It's not going
to be a war and peace novel. It's study quick.
Speaker 2 (35:00):
Mail line that I referenced earlier. I remember he had
asked for me to listen to a particular radio station
and because it was suffering in the ratings, and his
line was, you haven't fixed the radio station yet. They
were able to fix the hubble telescope in a matter
(35:20):
of days.
Speaker 4 (35:22):
There's a story out there. I think it's true. I
wasn't at the company then with him. He had a
budget meeting and he hired some guy that climb climbed
Mount Everest. And the guy gets up on stage and
of course call the sales managers there and GM's are there.
The guy gets on stage and talking about that what
he went through, to grime and the blooding guts of
(35:43):
what it took to get up that mountain, and Meil
comes back on and says, all I'm asking you do
is make your damn budget. That's pretty good. That's pretty funny.
Speaker 3 (35:52):
It cuts right to the right to the core, no doubt.
Speaker 4 (35:54):
That seems pretty easy, doesn't it.
Speaker 1 (35:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:56):
Yeah, Now there's another facet I know that you've been
involved with. Are you still involved on the side of
sports betting in terms of, you know, the business of that.
Speaker 4 (36:07):
I bought into vs VSI in I balked about ten
percent of the company and became chairman of the company
in twenty nineteen, and we sold it to DraftKings in
twenty twenty one. So after that, the only other company
I'd invested in on the sports betting side was a
company called Juice Reel is j U I C E
(36:30):
R E e L. It's like a marketplace for people
who want to buy and sell their bets, is what
it's turned into. You know, like you see on Sunday morning,
you get here, the people on the radio saying, twenty
five dollars, let me give you my best best. There's
no accountability there. You don't know if they're winning or
losing or anything. They just get on air and talk
and tell you anything you want to hear. But with
(36:51):
Juice Reel you can actually track the performance of people
in the marketplace, and then you can decide if you
want to pay them or not. They're paid now. Subscription
is free. It's free app, so it's fun to check
out and play with it. I don't know if you've
been on sports, but if you do, you've really enjoy it.
Speaker 3 (37:09):
I have, but then it went south so I stopped.
Speaker 4 (37:14):
Don't feel bad because the average best better, I mean
the best betters. They only win at a fifty three
percent rate. It's not like guys are out there and
when women and men are out there making eighty percent picks.
That's not happening. So it don't feel bad. If you're
fifty one, you're ahead of the game.
Speaker 3 (37:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:34):
Now there is another part of what your life is about,
which involves doing.
Speaker 3 (37:39):
Play by play.
Speaker 2 (37:41):
That's obviously going back to your first loves and talk
about what that feels like and what you're doing there.
Speaker 4 (37:49):
It was It was hard. That may have been one
of the hardest things that I ever had overcome because
I would tease the guys Sean McMahons and his people about,
you know, your guys on CBS Sports Network, they're not
that good. And you know, back then when they first started,
they really weren't that good. They got a lot better now.
(38:10):
But Sean would listen to me. He goes all right,
And I was getting ready to retire, so I had
plenty of talent to do whatever. So Sean says, okay,
but I got to have a tape. You got to
give me a reel. I said okay, and I realized
I didn't have a reel. I had no reel. So
I go to my alma mater, Eastern Kentucky and begged
(38:31):
for a place on pressure roh. I got that. Then
I talked to my friend Ralph Hacker at University of
Kentucky who was a legendre and play by play, and
I got their engineers so let me borrow equipment for
a night. Then I went to Kyle Macy who played
for the Phoenix Suns who went to the UK, and
he was my color guy, and wah, I mean we
(38:52):
had a team. So I did that, and then I
still didn't have the video part. So I had to
go back to Eastern and get three or four engineers
to help me sink the video in the audio together.
And I presented that to Sean and his guys as
here's your real which really wasn't the true real. It
was kind of a maybe a half reel. So Sean says, okay,
(39:15):
all right, we'll give you guys, we'll give you a shot.
So my first game is going to be January of sixteen. Yeah,
and I was at East Carolina. They were playing USF
or South Florida. And now it's coming up on November,
and the games in early January. Most of myself always
(39:38):
came early in January or early February because there was
a football basketball override and all the really good guys
robbed doing that, so they needed help. So anyway, I realized,
I tell my wife, you know what, I have never
talked to a producer. I've never been inside of a
TV truck. I never talked to a director. I haven't
(40:00):
done anything except you get this real this thing that
I put together, and I bus I bet I lost
fifteen pounds, just sweat no break. So I started making
calls and think I better learn the ropes here. I'm
gonna I'm going to be laughed at. Monetarily, it didn't
make any difference, but my bosses were. It was kind
of not the joke, but it was talked about that
(40:22):
Dan was going to do play by play and they
would say, Oh God, what's that going to be like?
Speaker 3 (40:27):
You know?
Speaker 4 (40:27):
So anyway, I found a friend who knew of a
National Hockey League crew that could do it. So I
had to pay sixteen thousand dollars for the month of
December of fifteen, and I had like a five person
crew at six and o'clock in the morning because we
had to be out of there about eight. They worked
(40:47):
with me and had I had a lady as a
stand in, and I had a producer. I had a
director at camera guys, I had stat guys. So I
was for the month of December. I prepped life hell
and made it through the first season. I'm glad I
got invited back for the second. But eventually I went
on to do two years at Coppon State and then
(41:10):
now I'm doing Shnandoah. I'm in my second season at Shannandoah.
But it's a Division III school with a lot of
the really nice facility, nice setup, and they're a lot
nicer than the network people. Nicer to me.
Speaker 3 (41:25):
Isn't it fun doing something that's a little scary.
Speaker 4 (41:28):
Yeah, I think that's part of the book. It's fearless,
you know, it's people are afraid to try, and you
know you got to try. I don't care. You got
to try. You can't just sit back. You got to
give it a shot. But it then work, then that's okay.
You gave it a shot, You did your best. You know,
(41:49):
you go out and play the game, and you can
call your career over when you call it over. Nobody
else can call your career over for you. Let's say
you get fired at tomorrow from radio station. That's not
the end of your career. Careers over when you say
it's over, not somebody else. So look with yourself. You're
not working directly in radio. Maybe if you're doing all
these other things now, so your career is not over.
(42:11):
When was the last time you had a radio john
day to day?
Speaker 3 (42:14):
Oh, end of twenty nineteen.
Speaker 4 (42:17):
Okay, there you go. But when twenty nineteen came and
you decided or they decided or whoever decided, that wasn't
going to be anymore, you didn't call your career over.
You said, well, no, it's not over. And look at
you now, you're doing all these other things. Is it
the same as what you were doing? Maybe not, but
you're in the game still, You're in the game.
Speaker 2 (42:37):
Well, that's really powerful advice for those who are being
displaced often in the business, because I worry about that
generation of people who don't know what the next thing
is and they're calling it over.
Speaker 4 (42:49):
Let me add one other thing. I was talking to
John Saint Augustine. John's in Chicago. He worked at Jubbigg
and he worked for the Oprah Network. You told me
that he was having lunch with a from the Tribune
and the guy told him that if you can write,
if you can announce or produce, and you know production
skills with the equipment on how to use that stuff,
(43:12):
you're going to have a job as long as you want.
Because now audiobooks are here and all these other different
avenues are here. But you need those three basic skills.
And you look at the people who have been displaced.
They've got those three skills. I know they do. It's
just a matter of applying them in new new avenues.
Speaker 3 (43:30):
Yeah, well said well in closing, I remember fondly when
I would go visit you at your office there outside
of DC.
Speaker 2 (43:40):
Once in a while we would literally go take a
walk and grab a cup of coffee around the corner there,
and those are always great places to explore ideas and
thoughts and conversation. So if I was taking that walk
with you, I would be asking you the final question,
which would be what leadership advice would you give right
(44:01):
now to those still in positions of leadership in the
radio business.
Speaker 4 (44:07):
I think two things. One is, never get too high
on your highs or never get too low on your lows.
That are going to happen to you. And there'll be
people in your highs that are gonna come up and say,
buzz man, you're You're the best man. Nobody's better than you,
buzz and you just got to mentally say thanks, but
don't believe them. Just keep moving. And then when it
(44:27):
when you get through the lows, tell me an NFL
coach that hasn't been fired or let go. I mean,
they're all that's all over the place, and what do
they do. Look at Andy Reid, the guy that got
thrown out of Philadelphia. He's Kansas City. He's like a icon,
you know, he's a big dude, and it just evolves.
I think the second thing you have to keep in mind,
(44:49):
what goes up will come down. You don't go up
and up and up and up forever you go up
you go down, you go back up, you go back down,
and it put things in perspective.
Speaker 3 (45:01):
I believe Dan Mason.
Speaker 2 (45:03):
I'm so grateful for everything over the years, and so
grateful to have you on and certainly be connected with
you on Taking a Walk.
Speaker 3 (45:11):
And I'm just I'm so appreciative of knowing you and
having our time.
Speaker 4 (45:17):
I just feel the saying, Buzz. I've always enjoyed talking
with you in your terrific programmer, and I love program directors.
Speaker 2 (45:25):
And I'm lucky I didn't answer that question that I
had two thousand records in my in my record collection because.
Speaker 3 (45:33):
I didn't really how many did you have? A four hundred?
Speaker 4 (45:38):
Okay, how many did you actually play?
Speaker 3 (45:42):
A two hundred?
Speaker 4 (45:43):
Yeah? There you go. Cut your own playlist down exactly.
Speaker 3 (45:47):
Play it at home, Yeah, play that music at home. Yeah.
Thanks Dan, Thank you, Buzz.
Speaker 1 (45:55):
Thanks for listening to this episode of the Taking a
Walk podcast. Sure and other episodes with your friends and
follow us so you never miss an episode. Taking a
Walk is available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, and
wherever you get your podcasts.
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