Maggie Freleng | Journalism, Serial Killers and Podcasting (RE-RELEASE) - Talking to Death with Payne Lindsey

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Talking to Death is released weekly every Wednesday and brought
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Speaker 2 (00:06):
But if you want at.

Speaker 1 (00:07):
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Speaker 3 (00:15):
Talking to Death is a production of tenderfoot TV and
iHeart Podcasts. Listener discretion is advised.

Speaker 2 (00:23):
Welcome to Talking to Death.

Speaker 1 (00:26):
If you're an Up and Vanished listener and this is
the first time you're coming here, Thanks for stopping by.
This is my weekly podcast where I talk about true crime, UFOs,
pop culture, other random weird shit, and I interview my friends,
peers and other people that I look up to and
try to just figure out how they're getting through life

(00:48):
like we are. It's a fun mixed bag of different people,
but a lot of my friends happen to do podcasts.
This whole new season of Up and Vanished, I wanted
to be able to take you a little bit further
behind the scenes and talk more candidly about different aspects
of it, and this seemed like the perfect place to

(01:09):
do that. We're going to discuss what you just listen to,
and we have a really fun list of other true
crime podcasters and experts in the field that will be
coming on as guests every week. I'm gonna go ahead
and say spoiler alert if you haven't listened to episode
one and two of Up in Vanish season four in

(01:30):
the midnight Sun, I would just go ahead and do
that real quick, or you will be spoiled. So please
listen to the whole episode. It's completely worth it, I promised,
And if you do, at the very end, I'm going
to play a short teaser of episode three of Up
and Vanished, definitely worth sticking around for. And we'll be

(01:55):
doing this every week on Fridays after the latest release
of UP and we'll be back here again next Friday
after episode three is out. But yeah, I'm joined here
with Mike and Dylan. You guys were a part of
Up and Vanished. You still are a part of Up
and Vanished. Because it's not over. I feel like, because

(02:17):
my head is so deeply in this, not only in
the case, but the actual edit of the show and
all this tape i'm hearing, it's really hard for me
to step out and just think of anything to even say.
So I'm glad Dylan's here because I want you to just,
you know, throw out some thoughts or some thoughts, starters

(02:40):
or questions of your own, just trying to be as
an objective listener and that'll probably get it going. But
it's like neck deep in complete madness if we're being real.
Mike can definitely test that.

Speaker 4 (02:55):
Yeah, I'm class of season two up and vanished. Yeah,
you're the new recruit now, Dylan, mm hmm.

Speaker 5 (03:03):
What is this season four? Getting my season four metal currently?
Which is pretty cool? It's yeah, you know, it's it's
neat because I've known both of you guys for you know,
ten plus years, work together on and off. But it's
cool to, like, for the first time, get to be
a part of the podcast process and see how it
goes start to finish, see how it all kind of
comes together, really going from nothing to you know something.

(03:25):
That is this release that just came out today, And
props to you guys for all the hard work, all
the editing. I mean it, it looks and it sounds
just so fucking cool. So I listened to it today.

Speaker 2 (03:35):
How's the podcast look, Dylan?

Speaker 5 (03:37):
It looks like blackness? Actually there's did you watch a
thing there at all? I watched it inside my own head. Yeah,
of the mind, right, but no, you know, I'm stoked
to be here. I'm stoked to get to talk to
you guys about it. For those that don't know me,
which is literally everybody, I'm the producer for Talking to Death,
I'm the lead producer, so it's cool to get to
do this crossover and you know, get to see these

(03:58):
worlds come together behind the scenes. But to that end,
we want to kind of use some of this time
in the intros for Talking to Death, to interview Paine,
interview Mike, and I guess myself as well. I can
chat about it and just kind of chat through the process,
chat through your thoughts. Eventually, maybe we can use this
time to answer some questions or comments about the episodes
as we go. But yeah, I'd love to just jump

(04:19):
right into it. If you guys are ready, let's do it.

Speaker 2 (04:22):
Let's talk up and vanish baby, let's do it.

Speaker 5 (04:24):
I'm so curious what your thoughts are now that episode
one is out and it's released and you can't mess
with it anymore. How are you feeling?

Speaker 2 (04:33):
I mean, I'm numb to it at this point.

Speaker 1 (04:38):
Honestly, the only time I ever really listened back to
an episode like in terms of going back in time.
Once it's published is the day that it comes out
and it's too late to delete it. I'll give it
one listen through that day, and so anything I didn't
like or like, you know, I thought could be better
or whatever, it definitely sticks with you because can't change it,

(05:00):
and it's frustrating. But that's kind of my method. But
the thing is, it's once it's out, I'm already on
to the next thing. I My head is deeper in
this case than the context of one and two, and
a lot of that is still actively happening, and that's
the most important thing to me right now.

Speaker 5 (05:20):
I mean, it's it's so much to get through, so
much to work through and put it all together, and
I can't even imagine how it feels. It's probably a
feeling of relief to some degree, just be like it's
finally done, it's out and people are hearing it now.
But then there's this whole other side of you know,
now people are listening to it, and what's that going
to mean.

Speaker 1 (05:36):
It's like a quick, tiny sigh of relief, But then
you it's like I know that this is also just
getting started, So it's not like I have just accomplished
something and I'm like, thanks, guys, see you later. It's like, no,
it really just it's just now beginning in a lot
of ways.

Speaker 5 (05:56):
So let's talk about episode one. Said the Stage four US.
You're kind of giving the audience a period of your
journey into Nome, your first introduction to the case. You're
setting up a little bit of backstory and background on
flow and kind of describing what Gnome is, Like, I mean,
what was your experience with all of them?

Speaker 1 (06:13):
Well, I was thinking about like what I could say
that would be interesting about episode one, and one thing
actually stood out, and I was when I was building
the episode, I was contemplating whether or not to include
this part because I felt like people wouldn't believe it.
And the point I'm talking about is how Cooper told

(06:37):
me about this case and I had really decided to
do this, and then I genuinely did find Deila's email
weeks later after we were already working on this and everything.
I was hoping that would just feel authentic, because it is,
and if it felt like I was just trying to

(06:59):
contribe something to drum up some drama or suspense or whatever,
I was just going to cut it but I was like,
I thought it was wildly weird and unique that that happened,
But I could easily see as an objective listener, You're like, Okay, yeah, bullshit.

Speaker 2 (07:15):
You know what I mean.

Speaker 1 (07:16):
But I got it to work, and I was glad
I got to include it because Dieila and myself both
felt the same way about that. So I thought that
was kind of a neat thing, and if I could
make it work, I was going to include it.

Speaker 5 (07:30):
We talk a lot about, you know, serendipity and synchronicity
when it comes like investigating these things and kind of
connecting the dots, and it's just so strange, Like the
deeper you look into things and the more you pay attention,
a lot of times you find these strange little connections.
Even if they happened, you know, two years before, and
you didn't see it for two years. An email can
resurface two years later when the dots start to connect
in that way, and I think that just it. It

(07:51):
goes to show your really impressive investigation skills more than anything.

Speaker 2 (07:55):
Well, thank you, Dylan, you got it. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (07:57):
I feel like with Sarenpity all that kind of stuff.
I've told Mike this before too, I feel like there
is this sort of plane that I can get on
and off of, right, and when I'm in the thick
of up and vanished investigating, and you know that I'm

(08:21):
that's my entire world essentially, I eventually find myself getting
on some other like this is all in my head,
but like some other plane where if I stay there
and once I'm there, it's everything just clicks. It's happening
before I even think it, and that person's going this way,
and then this happened and that folded into this thing.

(08:44):
And you know, I always so I'm always striving to
kind of get back to that place, but I also
can tell when I'm not there too. I'm not always there.
And this has kind of been like a conscious thought
I've had over years of making true crime podcasts. Were
very strange, you know, coincidental things have happened, and you know,

(09:06):
I think that Mike and I when we were working
on Dead and Gone, the other true crime podcasts that
I have. If you haven't listened to that, you should
season one of that. There were so many moments that
were like that's where I got the word from. Really,
it's just serendipitous, right, I remember you'd saying that too,
Mike when we were out there in Portland, like just

(09:26):
and how much of it is confirmation biased and how
much of it is you know, but sometimes there's just
shit that happens and you're like, either way, that's weird,
right right.

Speaker 4 (09:35):
Yeah. For the longest time, I was like the biggest
skeptic of all of that stuff. I was like the
worst about that, Like nothing was magic, there's no such
thing as synchronosy. But when you see it so many
times over and over again and you see this pattern
of like, oh, this is like it's something telling me
to go this way, like it searchs the kind of
weird you out, and I don't know, I started believing

(09:57):
in whatever that is something.

Speaker 2 (09:59):
What do you think that is? Though?

Speaker 4 (10:01):
Like I haven't the universe, you know, the universe.

Speaker 1 (10:04):
In mother naturedestined way, like this is the correct way
that you were to go, or you are building it
and it's going to work, or you're tapping into something
or is this all just in your head?

Speaker 4 (10:16):
I think it is some kind of connection. I don't
know what it is. I don't know if it's spiritual
connection or like you said, in our head or we're
all in a simulation. Who knows. But I don't think
it's necessarily telling me I'm going the right way. I
think it's just the It's like when people say, well,
a small world, you know, it's like, what are the
odds of you running into somebody like in Alaska that

(10:38):
you went to high school with or something like it?
Just as an example, you know, that's really like statistically unlikely.
And a lot of the stuff that was happening on
Dead and Gone, I was like, there's this isn't confirmation,
but this is something else in play here.

Speaker 1 (10:52):
This is like already turning into like a spiritual cult
sounding podcast right now. This is what happens when you
are just using your brain at its full capacity trying
to solve an unsolved missing person's case. Genuinely, you start

(11:12):
thinking this way because it's so heavy, there's so much
going on. There's so many people that we are talking
to constantly, and it's not even everyone you hear on
the podcast. You know, there's a lot of people in
the community that we're you know, tight with, and law
enforcement and this agency, that agency, other journalists, and there's

(11:36):
so many moving parts and it's a living, breathing thing
that you feel like you're genuinely a part of and
you want to take care of and you start thinking
this way about it when things start clicking.

Speaker 5 (11:50):
Where was your mind at when you first landed innme,
and do you kind of remember where you started the investigation.

Speaker 1 (11:54):
When I touched down in Know, it just feels like
you're on the edge of the way world because you're
looking out and it's nothing but ocean, right, and you
check your your maps on your iPhone and you see
Russia right there, right, and you're I'm just thinking to myself,
I'm still in America, right, It's just so geographically far

(12:18):
from where I live that it's it's almost hard to
comprehend that we're in the same country, just geographically right.
You feel like you're you're far away from what is
familiar to you as an outsider going there, right, it's
just a tiny place. It is incredibly small. I mean,

(12:39):
we've all been there, Like you've been there too, Dylan.
We did a lot of walking around, like you can
mostly walk everywhere unless you're going to the airport. You
know that that would just be a longer walk, but
you could do it. You know, once you kind of
leave the where the housing is it's nothingness. It's just
tundra and mountainous terrain and just wildlife, and it's it's

(13:03):
right around the corner, and it's I've never really been
to a place that felt like that.

Speaker 5 (13:09):
So the journey to know him is, I mean, you
have to take several flights to get to these places
that you're going. Along the way, you meet this character Ray,
who is just like such an interesting old man. What
can you tell me about him and the experiences you
had with him?

Speaker 2 (13:23):
Well, firstly, he is a super nice guy.

Speaker 1 (13:25):
He was just a friendly old man, and he just
he almost seemed like a storybook character to me, Like,
what's that like, not the monopoly guy, but what's the
other guy with a monocle or something like an old miner?

Speaker 4 (13:41):
Are you talking about mister peanut.

Speaker 1 (13:44):
Mister peanut, mister peanut the planners, Yeah, now you know who.

Speaker 4 (13:54):
He actually reminded me of the old the neighbor in
pet Cemetery, you know what I'm talking about.

Speaker 2 (14:01):
Oh yeah, just a little bit of that too.

Speaker 1 (14:03):
I was just you know, it felt like a small
world to me that we bumped into this gold miner
so quickly upon landing there, and that seemed like it
was a mandatory interview that I needed to prioritize in
the moment because of the circumstances of Flow's disappearance. You know,
she went missing on this beach where basically only the

(14:26):
miners live in camp and this guy has been mining
there for twenty five years. This guy probably knows every
single person who's a miner there and who's ever been there,
And so talking to him, I liked being able to
learn a little bit about, you know, what gold mining
actually is up there, and you know, just sort of

(14:48):
some personal thoughts. When I was interviewing him, there were
a few moments that I felt like I didn't fully
understand why he seemed to know so much but also
seem to give so little, and most of the stuff
that he said about Flow's case, like I asked him

(15:10):
like a question, but he kind of went on his own.
And there's even some tape that I didn't put out
yet because I'm still kind of figuring out what it means,
and maybe it comes full circle in it dovetails later
and if it doesn't, then I'll just tell you what
it is. But I don't want to jeopardize it in
the moment. But there are some things that I heard

(15:33):
that I thought were really strange beyond what you heard,
And I'm just curious if that's just the way that
it sounds, or if it connects to any of the
things that I am dealing with now in terms of
the persons of interest in her disappearance.

Speaker 4 (15:51):
I really think Ray was a best case scenario because
you're going somewhere to investigate something that is suspected to be,
you know, a crime done by a minor, and you're
talking to a veteran miner who's been through it all
and has lived there a long time. It's just a
treasure trove of information you can gather real quick on

(16:13):
the plane ride there. Like that's perfect.

Speaker 1 (16:16):
Yeah, And I it bothered me that he didn't know
this guy's name, Like it didn't make sense to me, Like,
how do you know of a person and not know
their name?

Speaker 2 (16:26):
How are you assigning them in your head? Who are they?

Speaker 4 (16:29):
Well, if you think about it, though, how many of
these guys come and work for one season and then
you never see him again. And how many years and
decades has he been with guys like that? You know,
all the names kind of blend together I think in
the faces after a while.

Speaker 1 (16:43):
Yeah, And I guess if he was not close to him,
like he's saying, yeah, that makes sense either way. I
appreciate his involvement, and I think that, you know, I've
been I've found him helpful.

Speaker 5 (16:55):
I'd love to hear more about West Beach. I mean,
how much more information can you tell us about it?

Speaker 1 (16:59):
I feel like I said West Beach over one hundred
times in episode two. Someone should go count that, Like,
you don't have to do that, but if someone has
free time on their hands and you do that, I'm
actually curious. It might be like seven, but I felt
like I said it a thousand times. West Beach is
it's not still that way, is the thing? It used

(17:22):
to be years ago, this big, huge tent camp on
the coastline there, and the city eventually got rid of that.
They fought them on that and they all had to move.
So there's not people outsiders, you know, visitors, you know,
camping for free out there on the beach, like on
the beach like that anymore. But when Florence went missing

(17:43):
in twenty twenty, that was it was kind of.

Speaker 2 (17:45):
At the height of that.

Speaker 1 (17:46):
So there was a lot of different strangers going to
and from town on that beach.

Speaker 4 (17:52):
Yeah. I think there was a whole protest, right, they
didn't want them camping on the beach anymore because they
would come in seasonally and not buy a house or
rent a house and just camp out basically on their
work site.

Speaker 1 (18:06):
Yeah, it's I think it's a weird clash of the
native culture that's been there forever, and it's like the
gold rush hasn't stopped, even though they've mined so much
gold out of that place, and there still our deposits,
but it's in a way it never stopped, right.

Speaker 5 (18:26):
So going into Nome, it's a very very small town
population three thousand. Most of the traffic that comes through
Nome hangs out on the main street called Front Street.
It's right there, right on the coast, I mean, butting
up against the ocean. What was your experience hanging around
Front Street, interviewing people in bars, going at the different places,
seeing that slice of life there.

Speaker 1 (18:47):
I feel like in every true crime documentary they always
say like a quiet little town, and Nome isn't really
a quiet little town.

Speaker 2 (18:55):
There is traffic.

Speaker 1 (18:58):
There are loud vehicles and ATVs and bikes and stuff
like kind of just zipping around. What's bizarre is we
went there first in the time period of summer where
it's at its peak daylight, where it's daylight almost twenty

(19:19):
four hours a day.

Speaker 2 (19:20):
It never really gets dark dark.

Speaker 1 (19:24):
Like the darkest I ever remember it being was probably
like three in the morning. And one time, I remember
we had to change Airbnbs and MAVs.

Speaker 2 (19:33):
Took the truck.

Speaker 1 (19:35):
I don't know why he took the truck, but we
really needed it, and I had four suitcases and I
was trekking through the mud and what's crazy, I was exhausted,
and it was two thirty in the morning, and it
was broad daylight.

Speaker 2 (19:50):
Outside, but it was completely silent.

Speaker 1 (19:52):
Everyone was inside sleeping, and I felt like I need
to be inside sleeping too, But I'm walking around and
it felt like I was in a ghost town. In
the summertime, it's so much different than it is in
the winter. And we got to see a full circle
of that.

Speaker 5 (20:07):
There's not really much to do and know them except
go to the bars on Front Street at night. So
we were hanging out there in a booth and I
remember I looked up and Mike was talking to a
woman at the bar she tells the story about this
guy whose name starts with Jay. Can you set that up?
How much of that do you remember about how that
came together?

Speaker 1 (20:24):
Yeah, So that's in that clip is in episode two
towards the end, and that's when we were kind of
we decided to sort of hit the bar scene there
and what even is that? And if she was last
seen at one of these places before she went to
West Beach, you know, I'm sure that the people who
go there all the time, if they've been there for years,

(20:46):
and they might still be in here, and people talk
in places like that. And we ended up striking up
a conversation with her, and it was weird to me
that I brought up flows disappearance and that sort of
prompted the emergence of this character that she was talking about.
It seems like everyone in town associates her disappearance with

(21:08):
this person. You know, we eventually learned that the guy
starts with Jay. That's probably Oregon John. The coincidence or
are those two stories absolutely related or are there two
different male cab drivers in town who are acting.

Speaker 5 (21:26):
Like that whose names both start with Jay?

Speaker 2 (21:28):
Yeah? Right, whose names both start with Jay? Yeah?

Speaker 5 (21:32):
Was it serendipity that we just might happen to sit
next to her in this bar and track up a conversation.
Or is this something that's so prevalent in that community
that maybe there's a lot of stories like this from
a lot of the women hang out the bars.

Speaker 2 (21:44):
Unfortunately. I feel like there's a lot of stories like this.

Speaker 1 (21:46):
It goes back to sort of the history of Nome
and the know and police department, and we talked about
Sonya Ivanov's case. You know, so some bad stuff has
happened here historically, and it hasn't necessarily entirely gone away.
I think it's also so small that the odds of
you running into someone who knows something is almost like

(22:08):
for certain, unless you're in a place that doesn't have
anyone there. I think that if you're in any group
of people, someone there knows more about the case than
you think they do.

Speaker 4 (22:22):
And no word gets around very quick because of how
small this place is. Pretty much everyone does know everyone there.

Speaker 1 (22:30):
As an outsider like myself trying to help solve her
disappearance with her family.

Speaker 2 (22:38):
That can be a good thing, and that can be
a bad thing, you know.

Speaker 1 (22:40):
The good parts of it are that everyone does know everybody,
meaning that everyone's like one degree away, and so you're
always closer than you think to the smoking.

Speaker 2 (22:52):
Gun, right.

Speaker 1 (22:54):
And then also everyone knows each other, and if you
tell this person this, they might say this or this,
and that goes around. Or maybe these families don't like
each other, and you're getting sort of information that.

Speaker 2 (23:07):
Isn't necessarily, you know, one hundred percent true, and you.

Speaker 1 (23:14):
Got to be able to look at it that way
and be objective as a journalist, and you know, take
everything you hear with a grant assault a little bit
and do your own poking around and investigating. So Wendy,
who you heard in episode one and two, she told
us a story about when they were searching, she was

(23:34):
being followed by this truck and it really spooked her.
You can hear the genuine sound of fear in her
voice in those videos. And so she sent me those
videos and I got to see an interaction with known
police and it just seemed like to me, just from

(23:57):
what I watched and what she told me, and it
wasn't really being taken that seriously. And if this were
a real threat, if if if the truck that was
following them was up to no good. Then in a
lot of ways they put them in danger by doing that,
by not taking it seriously. And I you know again,

(24:22):
I analyzed the video and I don't want to put
out the video with the truck in it yet because
I don't want to highlight some person's vehicle that I
don't necessarily.

Speaker 2 (24:35):
Know whose it is. But I have some ideas.

Speaker 1 (24:40):
So I'm sure people are like, let me see it,
and I'm like, i'll show it to you later. But yes,
I found that story one terrifying.

Speaker 2 (24:49):
Two.

Speaker 1 (24:50):
I think that if if it if what she's implying
is true, if that is what we think it is,
then it's there's more than one person who may know
what happened to Florence that night. And I think that
people are trying to protect themselves. Why else would you

(25:11):
try to shoot them off the beach unless you didn't
want them to search the beach? Well, why didn't you
want them to search the beach? Are you just being
an asshole? Or are you trying to say stop poking
around over here? End of episode two, we learn a
name for the first time, and it's a nickname, Oregon John.

(25:34):
I feel like, if you've been an up and vanished
listener since the beginning. I don't know what's going on,
but Oregon John Catfish, John Bow in season one, Bow
and Dead and Gone. I don't I'm not making this up.

(25:55):
I'm also not even saying anything by that. I'm just
saying there have been some consistent names associated with important
players in these cases. And so we learned about this
person who goes by Oregon John, right, and as a listener,
I can assure you that we explore that to the

(26:16):
fullest extent. We go all the way there with it.
I think that there are other things that we're still
trying to learn right now, but it all starts to
go back to the same story. And I think that
sometimes not all the time, but a lot of times,
maybe the answer is the simplest answer. It's not some

(26:42):
super complicated aliens came in here.

Speaker 2 (26:46):
Serial killer.

Speaker 1 (26:47):
Nope, it's sometimes just exactly what it looks like. So
the structure of Talking to Death typically is that Mike
and I talk in the intros and we basically just
talk about what's going on in our personal lives and podcasts,
and we eventually get to setting.

Speaker 2 (27:06):
Up our guests of the day.

Speaker 1 (27:09):
So today we have an interview with one of my
good friends. She's an amazing podcaster. She's a true crime podcaster,
she's a journalist, Pulitzer Award winning. Actually, she is super talented.
She is one of the strongest voices of justice that
I know about, and she is amazing at what she does.

(27:32):
She works a lot in wrongful convictions. She does her
own investigative journalism and investigative podcasts like I do. She
has a podcast called Murder and Alliance, which is really good.
I highly suggest you listen to that if you haven't.
And she's just super talented, super sweet. But I sat
down with her and we talk a lot about making
true crime podcasts and sort of the journey into this

(27:54):
and how we both sort of cope with some of
the hard parts of this and what keeps us going
and sort of the silver lining of all this stuff.
And so it was a really interesting conversation that I
felt like I learned a lot from and I feel like.

Speaker 2 (28:07):
It's a it's a good way to start.

Speaker 1 (28:09):
This sort of up and vanish talking to death crossover
thing that we're doing, because she is a super super talented,
legitimate journalist who puts herself out there and really investigates
these cases, and I think that's just super admirable. So,
without further ado, here's Maggie Freeling, Maggie Pain. You're late late.

(28:46):
This was supposed to be a three where you were
looked pretty cool.

Speaker 3 (28:50):
Yes, it was very fun. It was a punk show
in Bushwick, lots of people just.

Speaker 1 (28:55):
In the street or something because it looked like.

Speaker 3 (28:58):
Like just like right in the middle of the park.
And it's really fun because kids can go. So there's
you know, like twelve year old kids hanging out at
a punk gig.

Speaker 2 (29:04):
So that's pretty badass.

Speaker 3 (29:06):
It's pretty fun.

Speaker 1 (29:07):
So you live here, I live here, You're in my city.
I'm in your city right now. Came from Atlanta just
to see you, of course you did.

Speaker 2 (29:15):
I want to talk about a whole bunch of things.

Speaker 1 (29:18):
But you and I both have been doing true crime
for a long time.

Speaker 2 (29:23):
You've been a journalist for years. It's it's pretty deep.

Speaker 1 (29:27):
Stuff sometimes, right, it's a tough topic to navigate and
it can be emotionally difficult. How do you manage to
keep your head on straight, to keep going and do
the right thing.

Speaker 3 (29:43):
Honestly, I think just the work itself keeps me going.
Like you know, I've been thinking a lot lately, like
what does this work do to our psyche? Right, because
we hear terrible things every day, people trauma dumping on
you all day every day, kind of like therapists.

Speaker 2 (30:00):
Yeah, I guess, yeah, I.

Speaker 3 (30:02):
Know that's a real term. Like I have people from
prison calling me, right, and it's just like, you're like,
it's a lot, you know. I answer two or three
prison calls a day of people just like forty years in,
what am I supposed to say to you at this point?
And it's like, but then when you do have the wins,
that is what keeps me going to to look forward

(30:23):
to another win.

Speaker 1 (30:24):
Yeah, I feel I feel like, I mean, as a listener,
you may not grasp that entirely if you're just a
true crime podcast listener or something, but I feel like
for the creators and journalists who do this full time
and are pretty good at it and do amazing work,
you cannot fake it. There's got to be real compassion

(30:48):
there absolutely or else you're not going to be able
to get through it.

Speaker 3 (30:50):
Well, that's the and you said the right thing. It's
like the good journalists and the good reporters and podcasters
that do this. You know, in order to connect with somebody,
you have to take on some of that emotional burden,
you know, like it is about compassion and connecting, and
how do you connect with somebody if you're not going
to have empathy with them? And so that's a lot
of emotions to take on.

Speaker 2 (31:12):
What's been the hardest part for you so far?

Speaker 3 (31:15):
The hardest part was actually when I got it wrong
when I did murder an alliance and I thought this
guy was innocent, and I spent two years trying to
get him out and we discovered that he was not innocent.

Speaker 2 (31:29):
In hindsight, how do you think it happened that way?
Or why did it happen?

Speaker 3 (31:34):
You know, it was I was really it was a
crazy case. It was a case that deserved to be
looked at twenty two years later. The police were absolutely corrupt,
completely botched it. It was just one of those things
where it's like the police department was so fucking stupid.
There was no way they could have created a multi agency,
multi person cover up, like it just wasn't going to happen, right,

(31:58):
And I felt betrayed one by this man that was
in prison, but by myself. I felt like I couldn't
trust myself after that, Like, how did I.

Speaker 4 (32:11):
You know?

Speaker 3 (32:11):
It was just I just I think I went into
it like believing in his innocence, or at least believing
there was something wrong with it, And I shouldn't have
gone into it like that, or at.

Speaker 2 (32:19):
Least wanting to believe that this guy's telling you the truth.

Speaker 3 (32:22):
I wanted to. I mean, I really liked the guy,
liked it.

Speaker 2 (32:26):
Yeah, but maybe he did a bad thing.

Speaker 3 (32:29):
Slit his ex pregnant ex wife's head.

Speaker 2 (32:31):
Yeah, pretty bad. Yeah, it's not good.

Speaker 4 (32:33):
Not good.

Speaker 1 (32:34):
So do you think in hindsight you ever had a
moment where you may have thought, Eh, I don't know,
but at the time you had your blinders on a
little bit. And I've like it's through moments like that
that you get better at what you do, right, Like,
do you look at it that way at this point
or how do you see it?

Speaker 2 (32:55):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (32:55):
No, absolutely? Like ever since then, it was like, Okay,
you know, I have this new label of like activist journalist,
right that was never a thing like twenty years ago.
Journalists needs to be unbiased, you know, objective, but we
know now there's no such thing as subjectivity. So I
have this like label of like activist journalist, which also

(33:17):
affords me the privilege of being able to connect with people.
And I just think, you know, I'm very empathetic and
I want to believe that when someone tells me something,
it's true. And so now I know, like, I'm not
going to make that mistake again, even if I like you,
even if I think you're the most innocent person on
the planet, I just need to not get so wrapped

(33:39):
up in it.

Speaker 1 (33:40):
Yeah, I mean that's smart, and that's just it's how
you'd have to do it if you're.

Speaker 2 (33:44):
Going to do the right thing right.

Speaker 3 (33:46):
Well, Roles reverse, like when you went into the Tara
Grinstead case, Yeah, how did you What did you think
about that.

Speaker 2 (33:54):
At which stage, like in the beginning.

Speaker 3 (33:55):
I mean when you started, I guess getting like names
of like people that could done it. I mean Bo
and Ryan, you had their names.

Speaker 1 (34:03):
I think that I went down every single person that
was a person of interest in.

Speaker 2 (34:12):
Great depths, and.

Speaker 1 (34:16):
There were so many things that were weird and suspicious,
but it was never fully convincing. It was just all
kind of circumstantial. You could paint it this way if
you wanted to. It doesn't look good because we don't
have the bad guys yet, and I would just kind
of toggle back and forth, and you know, learn one

(34:36):
thing about this person and start leaning more that way,
just like internally in my head.

Speaker 2 (34:43):
And then once they announced that it.

Speaker 1 (34:45):
Was somebody else entirely, it kind of actually made more sense.

Speaker 2 (34:51):
And you know, I got a lot.

Speaker 1 (34:53):
Of shit for that, but I I personally feel like,
you know, sure, I went down and explored all of
the publicly named persons of interest that had been in
the media for the past decade who knew Tara.

Speaker 2 (35:13):
And were acquaintances of hers.

Speaker 1 (35:15):
I explored all those same things in more depth, and
if anything, I think we learned that they didn't do it,
because I never learned that they did do it, And
I think that also is what helped us get to
the point where, hey, we were looking in the wrong place.
And if you really want to throw the salts on it,
you could also say that in two thousand and five,

(35:38):
they got a tip with these guys' names and they
fucking blew it. So, you know, but I also learned
a lot because I was trying to be.

Speaker 2 (35:49):
Objective, but.

Speaker 1 (35:51):
It wasn't that convincing to me that it was someone
totally out of this bubble here, but it was also
the only I knew to look at. But now I know, hey,
it's not always right here. Look over there there there.
There's got to be some sort of weird reason why
this thing is unsolved for all these years. If one

(36:12):
of these guys did it, like why didn't they find
anything yet? And in hindsight, I see it that way.

Speaker 3 (36:17):
Now, well, that's like what happened with this case. I
was just talking about the reason we came to the conclusion,
like not that he is guilty, but that we couldn't
help him. There was nothing we could do because we
did a two year investigation boots on the ground and
found absolutely nothing pointing away from his guilt. No one
changed their story, Every witness stuck to what they said.

(36:39):
We found nothing, nothing that could help him. And it
was like like what you used like kind of in
like the opposite vein, like there was nothing we could
do to help you because we found no evidence for
your innocence.

Speaker 1 (36:51):
Really, so over the course of two years, how did
that relationship with this person evolve?

Speaker 2 (36:56):
I mean, how did it end? Did it end with?

Speaker 1 (37:00):
I mean it had to have started with you know,
some sort of trust and let's go do this together vibe.
But it certainly didn't end that way, right.

Speaker 3 (37:11):
Well, you know what I realized is someone like him
as a narcissist and probably many other personality disorders, so
he knows how to hook somebody in, how to be
this like charming guy. I'm wrongfully convicted, I had a kid,
my wife is dead, like, I'm just this lovely guy

(37:32):
and the world did me wrong.

Speaker 2 (37:33):
So did you feel duped by him? Yeah?

Speaker 3 (37:36):
And I put my phone call in the podcast with
him where I confronted him on all of this, and
that was really what solidified it for me, was confronting him,
Why did you lie about this? Why did you lie
about this? This didn't line up? Why did you omit this?
And there was no answers, There was no answers.

Speaker 2 (37:54):
And then you got it was just like final answer right.

Speaker 3 (37:57):
There, right, It was just like an innocent person has answers.
They're not going to be lying, They're not going to
be circling in circles like he was doing nothing to
help himself, to help me help him. It was just
I will never let that happen again, and I won't
be that naive to not ask certain questions right off

(38:19):
the bat.

Speaker 2 (38:20):
Did you block his number?

Speaker 3 (38:21):
He is deleted from all my JP's number JP.

Speaker 1 (38:25):
I remember that. If you don't know what JPay is,
then what are you doing? And you're really missing out
on a new hip app where you can text prisoners.

Speaker 2 (38:36):
Yeah, yeah, I was, I learned. I've only used it,
I think, really were you messaging a few times?

Speaker 1 (38:43):
But I first ever used it when I was talking
to Wayne Williams, the Atlanta child murderer.

Speaker 3 (38:49):
And you think he did it?

Speaker 2 (38:50):
Absolutely, he did it. Did he do all of the murders? No?
But the list was no, you liked him?

Speaker 3 (38:58):
Yeah? Did you like him?

Speaker 2 (39:00):
What do you mean I liked? I don't know.

Speaker 3 (39:01):
I look, I liked this guy a lot, and he
was a fucking mother murderer.

Speaker 2 (39:06):
Like I hated this guy.

Speaker 3 (39:08):
You hated him.

Speaker 1 (39:09):
But he was very charming and he was you know, friendly,
he was never mean, he was never but he was
so fucking annoying because was it like narcissistic, Like he
would just run the conversation so much, like I would
just blow through two hours of like I didn't even.

Speaker 2 (39:30):
Get a word in.

Speaker 1 (39:30):
Yeah, And so I had to really like think about
how I would insert myself and plot out getting him
to answer anything.

Speaker 2 (39:39):
And I didn't have the luxury of talking to him
across the room.

Speaker 1 (39:43):
It's on a little phone and the payphone in the
prison and oh gotta go.

Speaker 2 (39:47):
It's like, oh my god.

Speaker 1 (39:50):
Yeah, yeah, but I have similar ending to my relationship
with Wayne.

Speaker 2 (39:55):
I'm in front of him on all the things. I
just did a deeper sid in the podcast. I think
it's probably the last episode or.

Speaker 3 (40:02):
I listened to it. I just don't remember. OK.

Speaker 1 (40:04):
Yeah, I just kind of went down all the things
that he said and just played them all back and
how they didn't add up and how they contradicted themselves,
and they were key points that he was saying proved
his innocence, and I felt I essentially caught him in
a lie.

Speaker 2 (40:23):
And it just proves that he is a murderer.

Speaker 1 (40:28):
And I think the cases he likes to talk about
are the ones that he didn't do.

Speaker 2 (40:33):
He didn't do, Yeah, but he still probably killed fifteen kids.
So what are we talking about?

Speaker 3 (40:38):
No, exactly exactly. Well, that's like you know right now,
with Rex Huerman, the Gilgo Beach, Long Island serial killer,
there was eleven bodies, ten over ten bodies, I think,
and he's charged with three of them, and it's like
everyone's like, oh whatever, like it's just three and I'm like, yeah,
but that's three bodies that we have now like identified

(40:59):
who has killed them. I don't know if you follow
that case. What's his name again, Rex Huerman?

Speaker 1 (41:05):
Can we talk about something? Yeah, I mean, let's be honest.
Doesn't he look like a serial gilly?

Speaker 3 (41:11):
Yes, he's.

Speaker 2 (41:12):
I mean, if there was a look, he has it.

Speaker 3 (41:15):
Well, I feel like the look was like it used
to be like the Dahmer Bundy look, like the glasses
and like, you know, the nerdy looking dude. And now
I feel like, yeah, Hureman was an ogre. That's what
the witness said. They they bungled this ten years ago
and she said it was an ogre.

Speaker 2 (41:31):
Dude. That is there he is?

Speaker 3 (41:34):
He is, Yeah, there he is.

Speaker 1 (41:36):
I mean it looks like he's wearing a mask of
his face skin right, Like it's a weird.

Speaker 3 (41:42):
Men in Black quoting men in Black today?

Speaker 2 (41:46):
Yeah? Yeah, you said you've been quoting men in Black
today like the original time.

Speaker 3 (41:52):
Yeah. Remember when he wears the skin suit and the
sugar water and coming out of it.

Speaker 1 (41:57):
Yeah, yeah, sugar where's that guy now?

Speaker 2 (42:03):
Like, I hope he's just walking the streets just going.

Speaker 3 (42:08):
Traumatized.

Speaker 2 (42:10):
Holy shit, dude, that let's stay away from that guy.

Speaker 3 (42:13):
Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1 (42:16):
I want to kind of shift gears to some of
the other stuff you've worked on. You you did a
you did a lot of research on the Mora Murray case,
and you you had that TV show with Oxygen. Also
want to give a shout out to ten and Lance,
who did a whole bunch of work on that case.
If you could just, you know, briefly, kind of just

(42:37):
break down the circumstances of her disappearance in the car
and just how they found that she was missing.

Speaker 3 (42:44):
Yes, So Maura Murray went missing in two thousand and
four in Havevioral, New Hampshire. She was driving from umss
Ammerst which is where I also went to college, and
she was driving up through the White Mountains. We have
no idea why she went up there. Why this young
college girl went up to New Hampshire by herself, randomly,

(43:07):
didn't tell anybody and crashed her car. We don't know how.
Maybe a snowbank, maybe ice spun out. A bus driver
drove by, butch Atwood saw a young woman crashed car,
spun out, it was turned the opposite direction. Do you
need help? She said, no, I called the police already.

(43:29):
She did not, in fact call the police. There was
no service there to call police, especially in two thousand
and four even now, when you're there you don't get service.
And by the time first responder showed up, she was gone,
that's it. That is that is it.

Speaker 2 (43:45):
So what do you think happened?

Speaker 3 (43:48):
You know, I think there was a very shady character
in the house at the spot she crashed at.

Speaker 2 (43:57):
Nearby, there's a house nearby right there.

Speaker 3 (44:00):
So this is the thing. Everyone says it's super remote.
It was not remote. It was actually there was four
houses live over there. There was four houses that are
significantly closer than people, like closer than this okay people, right,
everyone's like this remote area in New Hampshire, and it's
like when you go up there, you're like, wait, this house, house,
this house. Yeah, like yes, it's New Hampshire, it's the

(44:20):
fucking Boons. But like there were houses people could see.
So one of the houses was this very shady guy
who has assorted past inserted himself into the case, specifically
saying she was like in his basement, like cooking him dinner,
just like fucking weird shit.

Speaker 1 (44:36):
Like after the crash or something or yeah yeah yeah,
like he came. He said this himself.

Speaker 3 (44:40):
He said this to people. He'd be like, oh yeah,
I have more Moray in my basement, like just like
fucking weird.

Speaker 2 (44:44):
Just a fucking psychopath or is he? I mean, why
would he say that if.

Speaker 3 (44:48):
You really exactly? I don't know he he has. You know,
he's had a few restraining orders xes stalking. I mean,
he's not a great guy, and he's always been a
person of interest. We tried to talk to him in
the trailer of the documentary. It didn't make it into
the documentary, but I got a high speed car chase
with him, ninety five miles an hour, chasing him, chasing

(45:12):
him in a car with Art Roderick just being like
Maggie Floric. I'm like Arthur, I'm not a US Marshall,
Like what is.

Speaker 2 (45:19):
Happening right now? How did that end?

Speaker 3 (45:22):
It ended with us pulling into like a Walmart parking lot.
I think it was like a wal Mart or target.
I t boned him, like straight up.

Speaker 1 (45:31):
Like hit his car, no, like like hold like traps
some State Artet.

Speaker 3 (45:35):
Now fucking us Martial Art Roderick gets out of our
fucking Nissan rogue that I'm driving and was like, are
you his name? I'm not going to say his name,
but are you this guy? And he was like, what
do you want? What do you mean? Like you must
you just gotten a high speed car chase with us.

Speaker 2 (45:54):
You literally were running from casually that fast.

Speaker 3 (45:57):
Yeah, he was running from us, like he knew. And
you know, he just said he didn't want to talk,
and Art said, did you get my phone calls? And
he goes, when you don't get a call back, that's me.

Speaker 2 (46:12):
What do you mean about that?

Speaker 3 (46:15):
You tell me of paim?

Speaker 1 (46:16):
Does that mean when you don't get a call back,
that's me?

Speaker 3 (46:22):
Yeah, it makes no sense exactly. So this is the
dealing with it or no a stupid line.

Speaker 2 (46:30):
He's like, man, I goofed that one.

Speaker 3 (46:32):
Tim and Lanz can send to you when Tim and
Lance hear this. There's a song he wrote called Groupie
Turned Stalker and it's him playing acoustic guitar on YouTube
about a groupie turn stalker. So the guy's just fucking weird. Yeah,
And it's always been like, okay, is he just a
weird fucking guy or it dissolved. This actually means something.

Speaker 1 (46:54):
I mean, I feel. I mean, I'm hoping that if
he came forward and said these things that could have
been admissions of guilt and a potential murder of her.
Was it investigated by the police and.

Speaker 3 (47:08):
You're very aware of him.

Speaker 1 (47:10):
What Art and I can't find anything, right, And they
didn't find a body in the basement.

Speaker 3 (47:14):
And so when meet Tim and Land started doing the
ground penetrating radar, we went to his house and we
GPRD his house. The current owners led us and we
didn't find anything. But do you answer your question, I
think that the dogs lost her scent in front of
his house. I think it was very likely that he
was driving by and said, hey, do you want to ride?

(47:35):
And she said no to Butch and I think by
the time he pulled up, she realized like shit, I'm fucked,
like there is no service, I'm going to take this ride.
And I think it was probably an attempted sexual accounter
that she rejected and he killed her. This guy has

(47:55):
a lot of hunting property that's private that we've never
been able to search, right. I think that's probably what happened.

Speaker 1 (48:01):
I mean, it feels like to me, it's either the
butch guy, this other guy you're talking about cross or
for whatever reason she.

Speaker 2 (48:12):
Wandered off into the woods and wasn't found.

Speaker 3 (48:14):
Yeah, we had like we just did, never believed in
the woods situation because why would she go into the woods.
She wasn't stupid.

Speaker 2 (48:24):
How bad was the car crush?

Speaker 3 (48:26):
Wasn't bad. The car actually could start is the scary thing.
She didn't know?

Speaker 1 (48:30):
But don't wait, wasn't she already acting kind of strange
for like why was she going there?

Speaker 2 (48:36):
Why? Right?

Speaker 1 (48:37):
I don't know, just thinking was she not in a
normal state in that moment and was already doing something
that was kind of That's what they both.

Speaker 3 (48:45):
Thought, you know, they thought that she hit her head
because there was like a crack in the windshield and
she went into the woods. The thing was, there was
no footprints into the woods.

Speaker 1 (48:54):
Yeah, it's still weird because there's like there's nothing definitive
till you know, there.

Speaker 3 (48:59):
Was snow, so there was no footprints into the wood
woods by all the first responders. There's no footprints into
the woods. You know. The dogs there was dogs going
up and down. So when we talked to the state troopers,
search and rescue. They showed us the whole areas that
they did search and rescue, heat, heat radar, dogs, everything,

(49:23):
and it's just like, I don't think she was in
the woods. I think somebody picked her up exactly where
the dogs lost her cent and who knows where she is.
I've always thought the way I wanted that documentary to
go was art and I speak to law enforcement about
how law enforcement agencies in different states are not required

(49:46):
to communicate with each other. So you could have a
Jane or John Doe in one morgue, and when Vermont
is querying, they're not querying New York, Connecticut for these
other Jane Doe's and John. It's just like you have
to make it really depends. So there's like the national system,
then there's the state system, and none of it is
particularly streamlined. So I've always believed it's possible she's a

(50:10):
Jane Doe somewhere Colorado and just no one has searched
for her there, I mean not more. Yeah, if you
watch there's a show that I love, I think it
was on Ide. It's called Who Killed Jane Doe? And
it's literally about this, like people finally figuring out like
a runaway from Vermont has been in Arizona in a
morgue for twenty years.

Speaker 2 (50:31):
This whole time, this whole time. Wow? What? Yeah? Yeah,
incredibly frustrating case.

Speaker 3 (50:37):
You know, it's tragic. I mean, we're approaching are we
at twenty years?

Speaker 5 (50:42):
Yet?

Speaker 3 (50:43):
We're about next year's twenty? Is it really two thousand
and four?

Speaker 2 (50:46):
Wow?

Speaker 3 (50:47):
February two thousand and four.

Speaker 1 (50:51):
We were texting before this interview. I was like, what do
you want to talk about?

Speaker 2 (50:57):
And then you I'm pretty sure you said it in
all caps or something Menendez yes.

Speaker 3 (51:04):
And I was like, I Aliens or Menendez.

Speaker 1 (51:08):
Yeah, It's like, yeah, totally totally different things. But I
guess I've been living under a rock because I didn't.

Speaker 5 (51:16):
Know they know.

Speaker 3 (51:17):
I was shocked.

Speaker 2 (51:18):
I guess I had.

Speaker 1 (51:19):
Seen some stuff on TikTok and Instagram, but I just
hadn't watched it all the way yet, and I just
didn't I wasn't aware that there was anything substantial that
was new that changed.

Speaker 2 (51:32):
The narratives here huge.

Speaker 1 (51:33):
So I definitely want to get into this for a
minute with you. Yeah, let's just kind of start with
if you don't know the Menendez case, what happened.

Speaker 3 (51:43):
Okay, so are we the same age? I think what
year were you born?

Speaker 2 (51:47):
Eighty seven?

Speaker 3 (51:48):
Okay, so I'm eighty nine. So you were two when
the murders happened.

Speaker 2 (51:51):
So Eric, I don't remember them.

Speaker 3 (51:53):
Yeah. So Eric and Lyle Menendez were two young boys,
eighteen nineteen college age. One of them might have been twenty.
Don't quote me, but I know they were eighteen nineteen
twenty something like that. Two brothers grew up in an
affluent family in Los Angeles. Their father, Jose Menendez, was
part of RCA records. You know, what people saw was this,

(52:17):
you know, high income, happy, all American dream family.

Speaker 2 (52:22):
Right.

Speaker 3 (52:22):
He was an immigrant and they made it here in America.
In nineteen eighty nine, the boys murdered both of their
parents point blank with shotguns, and when on a spending spree,
then were arrested. And that's really what the rest of
us know. Court TV this crazy trial of these two

(52:45):
young boys for murdering their parents, and the narrative was
they were spoiled, rich kids. They were mad at their
dad for some money, and the spending spray afterwards is
just because they wanted their parents' money. And that was
the narrative. I mean, that's what I remember growing up seeing, Like, yeah,
I do remember court TV and I do remember watching
OJ and like I just remember, you know, we were

(53:07):
five six, you were a little older, but like that's
that's stuck in my head. And I always remember these.

Speaker 1 (53:12):
Things, their faces to me in the court room or
kind of this iconic image in my head.

Speaker 3 (53:17):
Argyle, sweaters. And it was awfully attentional too. But the
narrative was these kids cold blood murdered their parents because
they're spoiled assholes, was the narrative. And we always heard
about this abuse excuse, is what it was called. There

(53:38):
was two trials. Their first trial they were acquitted and
they were allowed to enter evidence of abuse.

Speaker 2 (53:45):
In the first trial, abuse by their parents.

Speaker 3 (53:48):
The father, so Jose Menendez, has been alleged by the
boys that he was sexually abusive and abusing them up
until right before the murder. Wow, And I'm not going
to tell you why I believe that yet. So the
first trial they were allowed to enter evidence of the

(54:11):
abuse and they were acquitted. Trial too, the abuse evidence
was not allowed in by the judge, and during trial
the prosecutor called it this abuse excuse and that was
the only defense they had. They didn't have a defense.
They admit, yes, we point blank murdered our parents in

(54:32):
cold blood.

Speaker 2 (54:32):
They did not did we did this? This is why.

Speaker 3 (54:35):
But this is why. However, trial too, and they were
not allowed to put in a this is why the
judge did not allow any abuse evidence. So they were mocked.
I mean, if you go back and you watch us
and l from back then they do they do this
whole skit with the boys like they were. They were
so demonized in the media, in the public. I mean,

(54:58):
they did kill their parents, they killed their parents, sure,
but it was more mocked that these were two boys
men At the time, they were called boys. I mean,
nineteen year old is a boy. I personally believe.

Speaker 2 (55:10):
They're definitely still they're definitely boys.

Speaker 3 (55:12):
They're boys.

Speaker 2 (55:13):
I mean I was a boy at nineteen.

Speaker 3 (55:16):
Yes, no, you're a boy at nineteen, and so you know,
it was it was, that's that's what happened. So they
were convicted. They were convicted. They had no defense, absolutely
no defense, and they were convicted. And that's where they
were until recently, a man named Roy Roussello who was
in minudo and for people who don't know Minudo. They

(55:39):
were an inredibly popular boy band, like literal boys, like
fourteen year olds in the eighties from Mexico, Colombia.

Speaker 2 (55:51):
Okay, like Latin American artists that were like a Spanish
it was.

Speaker 3 (55:56):
It was a Spanish insanct so they were from Puerto
Rico and they were a world phenomenon. Menudo back then
it was like InSync Backstreet Boys before that. The world
loved Mnudo. The interesting thing about Menudo is that they
had to be boys so they would age out. So
there was a lot of members of Menudo. It wasn't

(56:18):
just me like boys like but the time they'd turn
like sixteen seventeen, it was like, okay, we're already we
got to get another boy in like.

Speaker 2 (56:25):
A fourteen were the same band.

Speaker 3 (56:27):
It was never the same band. It was never the
same band. The whole thing was that they wouldn't get old,
so it was like imagine Backstreet Boys, how we knew
like you doesn't really every year. That was the whole
like appeal of Menudo. It was just like these young
boys that were always singing these like awesome pop songs.
So this one boy, Roy was in Menudo during their

(56:48):
prime and Jose Menendez was one of the record executives
at RCI Records, and recently Roy Roussello has come out
and said, I believe Eric and Lyle Menendez because Jose
Menendez actually sexually assaulted me when I was a child
in menudo. And then all these menudo boys started saying,

(57:09):
oh yeah, no, if you were in a mudo in menudo,
you were being like sexually abused by wow, Jose Menendez.
And there was another guy that was just as bad
his partner. So that has now led us in twenty
twenty three where we now know that boys can be
raped and abused, because we did not believe that in

(57:29):
nineteen eighty nine boys could not be raped. So now
in twenty twenty three, they have filed a habeas corpus petition,
which is their attempt to get a new trial to
present the evidence that was never allowed in back in
nineteen ninety four.

Speaker 1 (57:47):
And so if they are able to pull this off
and enter this new evidence, because they still did kill
their parents and this was they've been admitted to that,
how does it change the consequences.

Speaker 3 (58:04):
So basically, if this evidence was allowed in back then
they wouldn't have had a murder first degree charge.

Speaker 2 (58:11):
Okaylaughter charge.

Speaker 3 (58:12):
It would have been a manslaughter charge. Ok Because significantly different,
significantly different. There's mitigating circumstances. Okay. These boys like the
abuse that they went through, and I'm blanking on which
brother was specifically the one that was abused, because one
of them was very, very badly abused. They they would

(58:33):
have been able to add that as a defense. Like
his his father. One of the main things that they
found out right before the murder was that one of
the brothers was supposed to be able to go to
college and that was his escape from this abusive home,
to be out of this, to get out. He was
supposed to be allowed to go to kay, got accepted
somewhere in California. He was going to get out of
La get out of his parents' house, and his dad said,

(58:54):
you're not going You're staying here. Like his dad still
wanted to control and abuse him. So we know that
this abuse was happening up until he was abusing his
eighteen year old son. Like these boys were so fucked
up from children to quote adulthood. They had just found
out that their mother knew and did nothing for years,

(59:16):
for years she knew this was happening. It has come
out all of this was in the first trial that
people that went to the house knew if jose is
in the room with the boys, don't go back there,
don't go back there, like really gross shit. And then
one of the pieces of evidence, So this is the
crux of the habeas corpus. With a habeas corpus, it's

(59:38):
an appeal, but you have to put in new evidence.
So the evidence could not have been litigated before they
did have abuse litigated and they were acquitted. It turns
out that one of the cousins, one of the boys cousins,
had a letter written from them, one of them again

(59:59):
I'm blanking on which brother from eight months before the murder,
saying my dad is he It says, my dad is
so fat it grosses, like it's gross every time he
comes near me, Like I'm disgusted, Like it's gotten so bad,
Like you don't I think the cousin was Andrew. He's like,

(01:00:19):
Andrew's gotten so bad, you don't know, Like every night
I wake up thinking is he going to be in here?
Like very clearly telling his cousin.

Speaker 1 (01:00:26):
Before the abuse excuse concepts the months before the so
kind of validates that.

Speaker 3 (01:00:32):
Yeah, so this is a letter that they're now using
to validate the abuse. Of course there's menudo boys validating
the abuse. So I think they have a really good
chance of actually getting out of prison because if it
was a manslaughter charge, they've done thirty three years. They
wouldn't have done thirty three years with a manslaughter charge, right,
so they should have time served.

Speaker 1 (01:00:53):
It's such a weird thing. It's like a just a
strange scenario for me. I mean, love my dad, love
my parents, but dad, sorry, if you abuse me for
my whole life, I would definitely kill you two yes,
but I would also assume that there was going to
be some consequences for that.

Speaker 3 (01:01:13):
And that's the thing. There's no one saying there shouldn't
be consequences.

Speaker 1 (01:01:18):
But it's like, what is your opinion on that? You know,
just well I think you know, I just that happened
to me in like you know an slaughter is well,
we don't know.

Speaker 3 (01:01:30):
We you know what it didn't. I haven't been abused
since I was a child. There is a photo of
Jose Menendez with the boys sitting on his lap like children,
like five six years old. Yeah, and his hand is
in the crotch of one of the boys, and the
boy just he just looks so.

Speaker 2 (01:01:45):
Vacant.

Speaker 3 (01:01:46):
From six years old, this boy all he knew was
my dad, is like he this is one of the
things that they knew. What made it really valid is
an aunt one time saw him one of the boys
eating lemons and she's like, why are you eating lemons?
Like randomly, and he was like, because it gets rid

(01:02:09):
of the taste from dad in my mouth. What child
knows to do that? Like they were raped by their father.

Speaker 2 (01:02:18):
That is horrible, Yes.

Speaker 3 (01:02:19):
It's horrible, and like to think of what they went
through and then to go back and think of when
we were kids and seeing all this like mockery of
them on SNL, Like really go back and watch that SNL.
They were destroyed in the media.

Speaker 2 (01:02:34):
Absolutely their lives. That's how I remember them.

Speaker 1 (01:02:37):
But I don't even remember them because just from the
Zeitgeiste of the whole thing.

Speaker 3 (01:02:41):
Spoiled rich kids and you know what the spending spree,
they were like, we were finally free. We just wanted
to like it was you know, I can't speak to
what it's like to be abused for nineteen years and
then when you're finally free what I would do, Like,
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:03:00):
I just thought of have you seen the movie Cable Guy,
do you know with Jim.

Speaker 3 (01:03:04):
Carrey, Yeah, like about oh yeah, of course.

Speaker 1 (01:03:07):
They're in the like in the background of that whole plot.
I think it's in the beginning, middle end on the TV.
Is Ben Stiller?

Speaker 2 (01:03:18):
Right? I think I think it's Ben.

Speaker 1 (01:03:19):
Stiller, who I believe directed it. In the courtroom in
like this twin brother.

Speaker 3 (01:03:26):
Oh my god, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:03:28):
Definitely drawn from the Menindez case. Yeah, it has to be.
It has to be summertime period.

Speaker 1 (01:03:35):
I mean, it was pretty funny the way they did it,
but just shows you, I guess how big it was
at the time and how much they were painted as
what right.

Speaker 3 (01:03:44):
It was, and and you know when we talk about
like the rise of true crime, I mean that was
Court TV. That that was nineteen ninety four, was like
prime time Court TV. It was OJ, it was the
Menendez brothers, John benet Ramsey like that was yeah the time.
And you know, it's so interesting for people to remember
all of that and now have to, you know, thirty

(01:04:09):
something years later, create a new narrative like actually, they're
not these evil monsters that we cold blooded fucking monsters
that we thought they were. They were actually horribly abused
children that did not see any way out. Dad just
told me, I can't go to college, I can't go anywhere.
I'm stuck here with this man that's abused to me
my whole life.

Speaker 1 (01:04:29):
And they can't kill their parents again. So right, I mean,
I think and that's clearly what it was.

Speaker 2 (01:04:36):
Messed up.

Speaker 3 (01:04:37):
No, it is. And you know, I think everyone should
watch Minudo Verse Menendez, and I think everyone should really
think about you know what I think we think about
it more abuse. But these things that jurors, what they
get to see and trial and what they don't is

(01:04:58):
very interesting.

Speaker 2 (01:04:58):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:04:59):
And it can show everything, yeah, everything.

Speaker 1 (01:05:02):
And you can see it just quite literally in this situation,
this trial, in that trial, you left this part out and.

Speaker 3 (01:05:09):
Well the first one they were acquitted, Yeah, right, because
they were allowed to have the abuse evidence. If this
and that's the whole thing. If this happened today, they
would not have There's no way they would have been
out in ten years. They would have done their time
and like hopefully gotten therapy, hopefully gotten help and gotten
out in been productive members of society.

Speaker 1 (01:05:29):
In true crime as a genre of podcasts, TV shows,
documentaries in today's age, How do you want to see
it evolve from here? Any strong feelings about where it
should go or what should stop or there should be
more of or I don't know.

Speaker 3 (01:05:48):
I mean it's such an interesting thing, right, because you
have shows that do one offs like every week or
like every day. I don't know, like their shows like Disappeared,
like Cruise Ship Killers, which is one of my favorites
right now. But like, you know, there are those shows
that are are silacious and that a lot of people

(01:06:10):
would consider, you know, like trashy.

Speaker 1 (01:06:12):
What what do you consider silacious? You don't have to
call anybody out. I'm just saying, like, what, what what
does it sound like to you?

Speaker 3 (01:06:24):
I'll tell you it's a show that I actually like.
But Nightmare next Door, right, Okay, if you ever watch
it on ID and it's just like, you know, the
whole thing is like and then they were having an affair,
did you netlib that's pot yeah, like and then he
like cut her throat during this, Like the whole thing

(01:06:46):
it's just like weird like puns and I'm just like, yeah,
that's sillacious, right, But at the same time. I think
the reason true crime is so popular with women, and
this is I think I've gone back and psychologically analyzed
why I was watching ID from like twelve years old
to now, right, is I think that women watch true

(01:07:10):
crime to learn how to not be victims. Actually, so, yes,
these shows are kind of salacious, but I feel like
the more you watch like what happened to people, sometimes
you learn how to not be that victim, and you
can you can learn patterns like Okay, I've seen so
much of this, Like do you not feel from watching
true crime and listening to so much of it that

(01:07:31):
you feel like you've learned things?

Speaker 2 (01:07:33):
You've sure?

Speaker 1 (01:07:34):
Absolutely, I mean you've been introduced to scenarios that you
didn't think could have existed before, or you know, sure
or unlocked some new fears right many.

Speaker 3 (01:07:47):
But I do think I do think that women watch
true crime to learn how to not be victims. And
I think you know, a lot of shows are made entertainingly,
that's the business, so like you know, there's the salacious shows.
Your question was, where do I want to see it go?
I want to just see it be more compassionate. I

(01:08:08):
think I think there's a big problem with people parachuting
in trying to make a buck and leaving. I think,
going back to why I have this title as like
an activist journalist is because I don't just use people
as sources. I build relationships, which is not something you're
supposed to do as a journalist. I'm not supposed to

(01:08:29):
have emotions with these people.

Speaker 1 (01:08:30):
I wouldn't say that. I think we're past that now,
That's what I mean. Moving You're not supposed to do it.
I think that you don't have to do it if
you're a journalist. I think sometimes if you do it,
it can mess things up, and if you don't do
it can mess things up.

Speaker 3 (01:08:45):
There's the thing. You have to know how to do it,
and you have to be skilled, and you have to
be trained.

Speaker 2 (01:08:49):
Yes, And.

Speaker 3 (01:08:52):
I think that's another thing is don't get me started
on people that are not journalists.

Speaker 2 (01:08:59):
That I'm definitely not sure.

Speaker 3 (01:09:00):
It's interesting because your bio does say like you're like
an investigative podcast. It says something like that, but I
think you are. Though it doesn't mean you have to
have a degree. You've done this for so long that
you we were just talking about this before. Everything that
you've learned from doing this for so long, like you

(01:09:21):
are skilled and trained, and we have made mistakes.

Speaker 1 (01:09:24):
Maybe now from all the work that I've done, I
remember quite vividly in twenty sixteen.

Speaker 3 (01:09:31):
I mean, twenty sixteen was a bad year for me,
was it. I mean that was where when I started
doing the more Murray stuff, Like I fucked up a
lot of that. I was a child, Like that was
so long ago.

Speaker 2 (01:09:41):
It's so long ago. That's when I realized, Wow, the
Internet is really mean.

Speaker 3 (01:09:46):
Yeah, And I was one of those mean Internet people
to you. I'm sorry, No, I wasn't on the internet.

Speaker 2 (01:09:51):
I do you like you? What?

Speaker 3 (01:09:54):
I just didn't like you. I think I was jealous.
I think I was like, look at this motherfucker like
doing all this shit. I'm doing the same ship and
like he's like doing better.

Speaker 2 (01:10:02):
That's it, Yeah, him doing his thing that I'm doing.

Speaker 3 (01:10:06):
Like look at this fucking white guy man just Marin
doing his thing like I'm doing that.

Speaker 1 (01:10:11):
I'm doing it, you know, Like no, like try your
best to imagine back and and like, trust me, I'm
not gonna be offended. I would probably be like look
at this motherfucker too. I'd be like this guy this,
who does he think he is. I can fundamentally understand.

Speaker 3 (01:10:29):
That, Oh that's that's what I thought.

Speaker 2 (01:10:31):
You thought what I did?

Speaker 3 (01:10:32):
I thought that I was like, who the fuck is this?
Who's this fucking guy?

Speaker 2 (01:10:37):
And how did it change then? Which is my own curiosity.

Speaker 3 (01:10:42):
I know when did it change that I decided I
didn't hate you.

Speaker 2 (01:10:46):
This morning this It was probably this morning.

Speaker 3 (01:10:49):
We'll get this morning like this guy, I guess I
don't hate him. No, we hung out. Maybe it was
a crime con or something, yeah, because I remember you
were doing you started then you started sponsoring crime con.
I was like, this fucking motherfucker.

Speaker 2 (01:11:04):
Think you can spont or stuff just looking at.

Speaker 3 (01:11:06):
Me in his fucking money, just like he's successful too.
Like I can admit that now. It probably was like
some sort of jealousy, just like some sort of like whatever.
But you know what, when I met you, I cannot
remember where we actually met and hung out, but I
was like.

Speaker 2 (01:11:26):
It's probably a crime con or something.

Speaker 3 (01:11:27):
It probably was con, but I was like, this person
is not the person that I thought you were. You're
just so nice and genuine. I was like, this is
not the douche that he portrays himself to be at all.

Speaker 2 (01:11:40):
I got your You tricked me.

Speaker 3 (01:11:43):
I thought you were a douche.

Speaker 2 (01:11:45):
No, I thought I'm actually a douche. Yeah, I think
I will.

Speaker 3 (01:11:49):
I know you well enough now that I'm like, you're
absolutely not a douche, like you're not a do Thank you.

Speaker 2 (01:11:54):
I appreciate that.

Speaker 1 (01:11:56):
I think what you didn't realize is that I mean,
I'm sure it looked optically annoying in some instances, but
really inside I'm like, god, dude, I'm I'm dying in here.
This is I don't know what, I don't know what.
I'm doing this so hard. It's like, don't be jealous,
this is really hard.

Speaker 2 (01:12:15):
Yeah. It was like I'm in over my head. This
is crazy. Just go work.

Speaker 3 (01:12:20):
Well, you you went from just like doing this podcast.
I remember you were like a documentary filmmaker that starts
doing a podcast and the next thing, you know, you
like blow up, Like how do you Yeah, that's overwhelming,
that's fucking overwhelming.

Speaker 1 (01:12:34):
It was weird, but I also was from a creators standpoint,
from a freelance filmmaker music video director at the time,
I was like, I am not letting go of these horns.
This is like, no matter what it takes, I'm riding

(01:12:54):
this and it just so happened that the ride I
was getting on and is one of the craziest ones
you can get on poking around an unsolved murder case.

Speaker 3 (01:13:05):
Yeah, yeah, no, it's fucking crazy.

Speaker 1 (01:13:08):
Yeah, And so I learned a lot about myself, I
think through that through and other people too.

Speaker 2 (01:13:15):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:13:16):
Absolutely, it's a it's a really how much of har
I was you know, it's a it's a crazy it's
a weird industry.

Speaker 2 (01:13:25):
Now, I do remember.

Speaker 1 (01:13:27):
I mean, if you just even google Payne Lindsay read it,
you're gonna do it.

Speaker 2 (01:13:33):
I already know there's there's plenty for you to take it.

Speaker 3 (01:13:37):
I mean, there's enough terrible ship about me on read
I literally like, I'm like, please never start.

Speaker 1 (01:13:41):
You're probably right, there's but there's a lot and like
I've seen it evolve from this thing where they don't
even really know why anymore they hate me.

Speaker 2 (01:13:52):
And I'm like, but you know, because that one time
you just you know what, I'm like, No, I don't.

Speaker 3 (01:14:01):
It's the weirdest thing to do your job, right, Like, like.

Speaker 1 (01:14:06):
I could make you hate me for really like actually no,
exact same something right now, and in fins you would
be like, oh see, yes, but I really tried not
to do that.

Speaker 4 (01:14:15):
No, exactly.

Speaker 3 (01:14:16):
Off it's crazy to just like do your job like
And that's why I think these conventions are very weird
for me, right, because it's like, I'm a journalist. Journalists
aren't celebrities, Like I never intended Maggie Freeling. Nancy Grace well,
I guess she was a prosecutor.

Speaker 2 (01:14:36):
Just got a celebrity now, but like so.

Speaker 3 (01:14:40):
Interesting Cooper celebrity journalist, right, But like I never went
into this business to be a celebrity.

Speaker 2 (01:14:44):
I'm like, I'm.

Speaker 3 (01:14:45):
Doing my job. I'm reporting. Yeah, So I'm like, it's
weird to me when people want to like take pictures
with me and like meet me and it's really cool.
Like I'm not complaining, it's just like a it's like.

Speaker 2 (01:14:58):
A you're not an actress, You're not exactly.

Speaker 3 (01:15:01):
I think we live in a very interesting limbo. That's
how I feel. It's somewhere between, like in this world
of true crime, it's somewhere between like celebrity and like professional.
And I'm like, I don't know how to exist, honestly.

Speaker 1 (01:15:19):
And I think that because I used to be a
music artist.

Speaker 2 (01:15:23):
Actually I was.

Speaker 3 (01:15:24):
I have like this video online that we've all seen.

Speaker 2 (01:15:30):
No, there's a couple, there's a couple.

Speaker 1 (01:15:32):
There's more than a couple, but I've only seen one
that was like my mentality for my early twenties.

Speaker 2 (01:15:38):
I was an artist.

Speaker 1 (01:15:39):
I viewed myself that way, and so it's kind of
just been ingrained in just the way I am as
a creator, and it's woven itself a little bit into
I guess my presentation as a journalist, but that I
leave at the door when I'm actually doing.

Speaker 3 (01:15:56):
Okay, so you are calling yourself a journalist.

Speaker 2 (01:15:58):
I'm sure that I can see that.

Speaker 1 (01:16:00):
There's probably a little bit of a hint of that
in the air.

Speaker 2 (01:16:06):
But it's it's so not deep. It's it's like caveman brain.

Speaker 1 (01:16:12):
Like that looks cool, let's post that, like it's seriously
the least deep thing. But I could see how someone
could perceive it as some narcissistic thing.

Speaker 2 (01:16:23):
It's like it it isn't, but whatever.

Speaker 3 (01:16:27):
What are you gonna do?

Speaker 2 (01:16:28):
Yeah it isn't, but yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:16:30):
But I've learned a lot just through that, And I
was like, you know, what fuck it like? And you
have two Instagrams for that reason.

Speaker 3 (01:16:37):
I have two instagrams.

Speaker 2 (01:16:38):
Yeah, I'm not gonna say what your other one is.

Speaker 3 (01:16:39):
No, don't say what my other one is. I'm not,
but you're an actual friend, so you get that instagram.

Speaker 2 (01:16:44):
I know.

Speaker 1 (01:16:45):
I wish I did that now I guess it's not
too late. But I'm like, I don't even feel like
doing both, Like one is annoying.

Speaker 3 (01:16:53):
It's really annoying. I don't my professional one. I actually
don't use I have a friend do it because I
can't get sometimes that you have to know and I
can't use the other one. I fucking go on. I'm like,
I don't my friend just posts for me just to
like engage, like I just did it. I don't like
social media. I'm not a social media person at all,
zero percent.

Speaker 1 (01:17:12):
There's a level of toxicity at some point where it's
not good for your head.

Speaker 3 (01:17:17):
No, I like going on it when like, here's the thing.
I like TikTok because I don't follow a single friend
on TikTok. I don't follow work people on TikTok. What
I follow is like alien conspiracy accounts, like you know,
wild ass conspiracy accounts. That's what I follow on my TikTok.
It's like that's what I want to see. I don't

(01:17:38):
want to see my friend's baby.

Speaker 2 (01:17:39):
What's on your TikTok, Mike?

Speaker 3 (01:17:43):
Yeah? What accounts do I need to be following now?

Speaker 1 (01:17:46):
I'm sure yours is riddled with that and probably guitars
or something. Right, Yeah, we should, we need to post more.

Speaker 3 (01:17:57):
Yeah, we need a lot of social media.

Speaker 2 (01:18:00):
Do TikTok.

Speaker 3 (01:18:00):
No, I'm really stupid with social media.

Speaker 2 (01:18:02):
I mean, I'll post on TikTok, but I can't. I don't.
I feel too out of control of it.

Speaker 3 (01:18:10):
It feels very out of control.

Speaker 1 (01:18:12):
I even down to just the presentation of I want
to see it within a box.

Speaker 3 (01:18:16):
It feels like chaos.

Speaker 2 (01:18:17):
I don't want it to be my whole phone. And
I'm like, holy ship, and I'm like, well.

Speaker 3 (01:18:21):
They finally just made the fucking thing where you don't
open it and it like it's screaming at you and
it's like, oh.

Speaker 1 (01:18:27):
Watch and follow. Yeah, I'm like, absolutely not. I don't
even want to.

Speaker 3 (01:18:31):
Watch and follow.

Speaker 1 (01:18:35):
Well, this has been a blast, and thank you for
making the time, and I'm glad we got to do
it in person and I'll.

Speaker 2 (01:18:42):
See you soon.

Speaker 1 (01:18:44):
It obsessedst cool have already happened when this comes out,
so so when we get in the fight there, you
know I'm already I'm sorry in advance, all right good.

Speaker 4 (01:19:00):
Talking to Death is a production of Tenorfoot TV and
iHeart Podcasts, created and hosted by Payne Lindsay. For Tenorfoot TV,
executive producers are Payne Lindsay and Donald Albright. Co executive
producer is Mike Rooney. For iHeart Podcasts, executive producers are
Matt Frederick and Alex Williams. With original music by Makeup

(01:19:20):
and Vanity Set. Additional production by Mike Rooney, Dylan Harrington,
Sean Nurney, Dayton Cole, and Gustav Wilde for Coohedo. Production
support by Tracy Kaplan, Mara Davis, and Trevor Young. Mixing
and mastering by Cooper Skinner and Dayton Cole. Our cover
art was created by Rob Sheridan. Check out our website

(01:19:41):
Talking to Death podcast dot com.

Speaker 1 (01:19:49):
Thanks for listening, and here's an exclusive sneak peek of
the brand new season of Up and Vanished. Tune in
to Up and Vanished every Friday starting February sixteenth for
the full EF episodes.

Speaker 2 (01:20:05):
Is the Police Chief in Today?

Speaker 5 (01:20:07):
Oh Year is out?

Speaker 2 (01:20:08):
The office this week. Folks here, what're burdy?

Speaker 1 (01:20:15):
We are journalists from Atlanta and we're here to discuss
some missing persons cases.

Speaker 2 (01:20:22):
Please hold, hey doing? Hey, hey, nice nicely? Maja.

Speaker 1 (01:20:31):
Is there a chance we can do tomorrow potentially?

Speaker 2 (01:20:35):
Okay? If we can get.

Speaker 3 (01:20:36):
Something tomorrow and that would I be moren't happy to
sit down with you, guys. I just if I've got
administrative stuff, I gotta wrap up here.

Speaker 2 (01:20:44):
What what what time would work best for you, guys?

Speaker 1 (01:20:46):
I mean really, anytime tomorrow be okay? Is earlier midday
better for you?

Speaker 5 (01:20:52):
Probably?

Speaker 1 (01:20:53):
Let's let's shoot for earlier in the morning.

Speaker 4 (01:20:55):
You know, we'll talk then and then we'll make a decision.
I know you guys are out of Atlanta for some
kind of hot gas.

Speaker 2 (01:21:03):
Yeah, yeah, so just call a station or awesome. Thanks
again me. I appreciate it.

Speaker 6 (01:21:14):
No, please try I can help you.

Speaker 2 (01:21:16):
Yes, I'm calling for Deputy Chief Crockett.

Speaker 6 (01:21:20):
The miss who's calling?

Speaker 2 (01:21:21):
What is hurting? This is Payne Lindsay. I'm a journalist
from Atlanta.

Speaker 1 (01:21:24):
I spoke with him yesterday briefly about possibly meeting today.

Speaker 6 (01:21:30):
Give me one chake of please, sure, thanks for holding.
I appreciate that he is unavailable for the rest of
the cold to take a message.

Speaker 2 (01:21:44):
Is he not there?

Speaker 6 (01:21:46):
I wasn't able to reach it. I'm not sure what
he's got going on right now.

Speaker 2 (01:21:50):
Okay, do you know when he might be in again?

Speaker 6 (01:21:55):
I'm not sure. If you'd like, you can check call
him back tomorrow.

Speaker 2 (01:22:04):
Thanks for listening to this episode of Talking to Death.

Speaker 1 (01:22:07):
This series is released weekly absolutely free, but if you
want ad free listening and exclusive bonuses, you can subscribe
to tenderfoot Plus on Apple Podcasts or go to tenderfootplus
dot com.

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Maggie Freleng | Journalism, Serial Killers and Podcasting (RE-RELEASE)

Episode Transcript

Host

Payne Lindsey

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Maggie Freleng | Journalism, Serial Killers and Podcasting (RE-RELEASE)