February 9, 2026 • 55 mins
In this episode of the 99 for One Podcast, Granger, Tyler, Parker, and AntMan take on one of the most challenging and controversial topics facing Christians today: immigration, ICE, and the role of government—through a biblical lens. Rather than approaching the issue through politics or cultural pressure, the conversation begins where Scripture begins—with the truth that every human being is created in the image of God.
Drawing from Genesis 1, Romans 13, Leviticus 19, and 2 Corinthians 5, the group explores how Christians are called to walk a narrow path—holding compassion and justice together without falling into the extremes of cruelty or lawlessness. They discuss the distinct responsibilities of the church and the state, why laws and borders exist, how enforcement should be carried out with wisdom and restraint, and why the gospel must remain central above political tribalism.
This episode challenges believers to reject fear, dehumanization, and partisanship, and instead live as ambassadors of reconciliation, committed to truth, love, and faithful obedience to Christ. No matter where you land politically, this is a thoughtful, Scripture-centered conversation that brings the focus back to the gospel and the call to seek the narrow way.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
What's up.
Speaker 2 (00:01):
I'm Granger, I'm yeah man, I'm Tyler, I'm Parker.
Speaker 3 (00:04):
This is the ninety nine for one podcast where our
mission is to reach the one and to equip the
ninety nine to do the same. That comes from Luke fifteen,
where Jesus is saying, how many of you that had
a hundred cheap and lost one wouldn't go find that one?
And really that's what this podcast has become. What is
this episode five by? And we have repeatedly said that
(00:26):
no matter the topic we do, we want to we
want to not think about a global appeal as much
as one gospel changed perspective amen, which brings us to
our topic today.
Speaker 4 (00:41):
How should Christians feel about Ice? Not that it's winner,
not that you live north, but the immigration organization.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
So it's interesting because as we started talking about this topic,
Parker immediately said that topic is a lose lose.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
And I do not disagree.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
And what do you mean by that though?
Speaker 3 (01:06):
Well, I mean it from a social media marketing building
a platform standpoint, this topic we can't win. No matter
what we say in this podcast. People are already mad
right now. They're mad listening to us, and we haven't
even gotten to the topic on both sides. And so,
(01:26):
but that's appealing to me because I've already built the
platform and I've chased the things. I don't really care.
I'm actually I want to seek truth and ground it
in the Bible and kind of communicate how we would
work through a very sensitive topic that's highly debated and
(01:50):
bringing all kinds of disunity, not only in this country
but in the world.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
What do we do?
Speaker 3 (01:55):
How do we work through that as Christians? And so
it would be easy to just avoid this time. You
can say, did dinosaurs really live, you know, on Earth?
Or is the Earth really you know, a billion years old?
We could do that and be safe and no one's
going to worry. Or we could dive it right into
a very hot topic and and use the Bible to
it help inform how we'd speak about it.
Speaker 4 (02:17):
Yeah, well, I know that there's a lot of new
people that are you know, just found this podcast and
just came in on it.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
Several of you are OG's and they.
Speaker 4 (02:24):
Came from the Granger Smith podcast or came from the
e podcast. And the truth was the same there too.
It was it always went back to, well, what does
the Bible say about it? Regardless of what it is.
We've talked about nicotine on this one already. Yeah, we've
talked about online church, we've talked about today, we're talking
about ice. Before this, we talked about everything else, and
it was always it always went back to the word, well,
what does the Bible say about it? And that we
(02:47):
hope and we believe that that should change whatever that
that's stirring up is inside you. If you're mad about something,
reflect and look, well, what does the Bible say about it?
And the Bible should change what hell we live and
what we do and how we think about it, not
the opposite.
Speaker 3 (03:04):
Yeah, because opinions are fleeting and we change our minds
and it you know, like the seasons, and we could
be influenced by a really good speaker or a really
passionate person speaking about this, or we could be influenced
by this and this could actually be manipulated in some
way because of a political agenda, and so all these
things change. Even our own emotions change, Like day to day,
(03:27):
I wake up in different moods depending on how well
I slept, if I have allergies or not. You know,
there's a thousand things that change me and the way
I feel the Bible says the same.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (03:40):
I always like what John Piper, the pastor said, he
would say, I'm just I'm going to explain this to
you because this is what I'm seeing in the text.
But don't just take my word for it, and don't
take anybody's word for it. Go test it for yourself
and see if you're seeing this in the text.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
So good. So where do we start with this topic?
Speaker 3 (03:56):
How should Christians feel about ice and immigration and illegal
immigration and refugees, and how should we think through these
things when we when we say that, where do we start?
Speaker 4 (04:10):
I was going to be my question to you, like
what what at? How deep do you jump into this point?
But what do you look first at? What is that
there is a right way in the wrong way? Or
do you know that's that's I think that a lot
of the discussion kind of starts there, Well, this is
the wrong way, what is the right way?
Speaker 1 (04:26):
Well? The right ways too hard or the you know
does that negate? You know? Okay, Well then now the
wrong way is fine? You know? Yeah, I hear you.
Speaker 3 (04:35):
I think probably the best place to start is in
a book called beginnings Oh yeah, otherwise known as Genesis,
which is the first book in the Bible, and on
that very most people. In the first page of the
of the first chapter of the first book of the Bible,
there's a little verse twenty seven down here, and this
(04:58):
is a good place to start for a lot of topics.
If you're dealing with people, let's start here first, and
a lot of topics are dealing with people. Verse twenty seven.
So God created man in his own image, in the
image of God. He created him male and female. He
created them. That is that's incredible, And you could think
(05:21):
for a year, you could meditate on that one idea
and still not unpack what it means that the creator
of the universe decided to create a being and that
would image him. That doesn't mean we look like him
in every way, but we are an image of him.
(05:43):
So when you see another human being, although there's seven
billion of them, you can get numb to the fact
because there's so many of them, you can get numb
to the fact that that every single one of them,
whether it's a baby or an old man, or a
homeless person or a president, they are an imager of
(06:03):
the creator of the and that should change the perspective
on how you hear them and treat them or think
of them. It should if you think about that long enough,
and it should.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
Yeah, I think we forget that a lot too.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
It's easy to forget.
Speaker 3 (06:21):
So before we think about politics or Democrats or Republicans,
or ice or borders or or policy that we might
disagree with, it all starts starts with the image bearers
of God. That's who we're dealing with on both sides.
Whether you're four eyes or against ice, whether you're four
immigrants or against immigrants or illegal immigrants, they're all people.
(06:46):
Meaning we start with this, We start with understanding that.
It might sound obvious, right, but it's if we don't
start there, then we start to dehumanize people and make
people less Because this person works for this government they're
less or because this person fled and is seeking asylum
here they're less of, or because this person's rich or poor.
(07:06):
We start becoming we start having partiality in these things,
and we start ranking people into systems, and eventually one
of the groups gets dehumanized and becomes less of a
human and you go but.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
They act like it.
Speaker 3 (07:21):
No, that's besides the point. If you start with they are,
then that doesn't matter how they act. We first we
look at them as they are image bearers of God.
Speaker 5 (07:30):
Yeah yeah, agreed, Meaning like you could view illegal immigrants
with a lack of that godly lens of I guess
sympathy is the right amount of word or a love
for them, like you can you can love them as
image bearers of God, not to say that you're going
(07:53):
to continue to allow them to participate in illegal activity.
That that's the lens that you're you're viewing it with.
Not dehumanizing them. I'm just processing what.
Speaker 3 (08:04):
You say, yeah, or flip it and the ice officer
that's demonized, same same argument.
Speaker 5 (08:10):
Yeah, just someone just a yeah, putting them in a
category of just a white guy who's abusing power. Yeah yeah.
Speaker 3 (08:21):
So to to that point, what we're dealing with with
this topic is Christians is two lanes. It's so many
times I think about this, but just go ahead and
use the analogy of a back road and you got
you got ditches on either side, call it left and right,
whatever you want to call it. But there's a there's
a road, there's a path, and it's probably a narrow path,
(08:42):
and there's ditches on either side. Here's in this specific topic.
Here's one ditch. One ditches. There are image bearers. They're people.
We should love them. Yes, they've broken the law, Yes
they are illegal. Yes some of them are criminals. But hey,
love them, have compassion on them, be merciful to them,
(09:04):
go easy, allow them to do what they need to do,
and because because we love them, have empathy for their situation.
That's one ditch. You can't go there, you can't go
all the way in there. The other side is we
have a law that's for our good, and the law
exists for our protection. If you break the law, you're
(09:28):
outside of it. And if you get punished for that,
that's on you. If you get killed for this, that's
on you. It doesn't matter you broke the law. You're
putting me in danger, in my family, my country in danger.
So it doesn't matter what else you do, you're out.
Good riddance. Those are two ditches. You can't get either
(09:48):
one of those ditches. Why you have to take the
path in the middle.
Speaker 5 (09:50):
Why is the second one a ditch? Just like curiosity,
like what's wrong?
Speaker 3 (09:53):
Because it actually where's the love of your neighbor? Where
is Leviticus nineteenth thirty three When a stranger sojourns with
you in your land, you shall not do him wrong.
You shall treat the stranger who sojourns with you as
the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself,
for you were strangers in the land of Egypt. I
am the Lord, your God. So where is on the
(10:15):
right ditch? We'll call it the right ditch mine as well?
Where is the love you love your neighbor? What the
wor's the the story of the good Samaritan in this
where it doesn't matter what they have done, You love him.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
So they should all stay.
Speaker 3 (10:35):
So what I'm saying is both of them are dangerous ditches.
You can't be all of either one of those. So
you have to walk a path as a Christian down
the middle that says laws are good. Yes, laws are
for our protection. Yes, countries should have borders. Yes, But
people that break those laws are not less human. They
(10:57):
should face the consequences of breaking the law. But we
should love them, and we should have compassion on them,
and we should seek their good and we should seek
policy change if necessary. But as the law exists now,
they cannot break it, and we couldn't encourage them to
break it. But if someone enforces the law with too
much force without compassion, that is wrong, and they must
(11:19):
face the consequences for upholding the law that has been
granted to you by the people, probably in some kind
of capacity, from the public. You are misusing the power
that's been given to you by God, says Roman thirteen,
and you are misusing it for abuse.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
So you are now in the wrong.
Speaker 5 (11:37):
So you see this narrow path, and then on the
other side you say, well, you can't have hordes of
people blowing ear splitting whistles in that God given law's
ears to purposely piss them off, to purposely mess with
their authority, their judgment, and to impede the judgment that
(11:57):
they're trying to enact on behalf of the government. ICE
is not making all this stuff up on their own.
They're just they're enforcing what the government is telling them
to do.
Speaker 4 (12:06):
And I think that's an important point. It's not a
group of guys who just got together and go, hey,
let's go find all the quote unquote, you know, the
illegals and get them all out of this country. Now
it's it came from the government. It wasn't just a
group of dudes that got together and when did this right?
Speaker 1 (12:21):
You know?
Speaker 4 (12:21):
And how does that? How do you know as we
talk about what is that? What is that line in
the middle that you're not in one ditch on the
left or one ditch on the right.
Speaker 1 (12:29):
Yeah, in middle? What does the tone of that conversation
sound like? Then it's it.
Speaker 3 (12:34):
It has to remain without partiality, which is difficult because
that means.
Speaker 4 (12:40):
And I think establishing that is important though, is to go, hey,
this isn't an easy thing to do.
Speaker 3 (12:44):
No, it's not easy. It's we have to also admit
that most of what we see and know has been
manipulated for some kind of political agenda. Yeah, on either side, ratings, ratings,
whatever it might be.
Speaker 5 (12:57):
Because both ditches get the eyeballs, which make money.
Speaker 3 (13:00):
Yeah, both both dishes get eyeballs. Maybe it's some of
maybe what we're seeing isn't even true anyway. So let's
just let's get past all that fluff that's the cream
on the coffee. Let's get rid of it all, and
let's let's talk just us, us in this room right now,
talk about what we know to be true. So we'll
start with this, should a country have borders?
Speaker 4 (13:21):
Yeah, I don't think you're a country if you don't, right, Yeah,
I think you're right. You can just wide open land. Yeah,
you're not a country.
Speaker 3 (13:29):
Without borders and God and the Bible, God is very
very clear with borders. Yeah, so should the board then,
building on that, should borders be defended? If or is
it even a border at all?
Speaker 1 (13:44):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (13:45):
If if it has if anyone can come and go
as they please, and there's no there's no need for
any kind of documentation, or.
Speaker 5 (13:54):
There would be no order, there'd be no citizens, there
would be no there would be no state of order.
Who's in charge here, who's doing who's the good authority?
You know, like we need we're human beings built by
God to be under good authority, and the government is
these people that are to enact a in an ideal
it doesn't happen everywhere obviously, and it doesn't happen perfectly,
(14:16):
but in an ideal situation, they're enacting good God given
authority for the citizens.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
Good.
Speaker 5 (14:22):
But if you just have a bunch of people wandering
around and there's no border and there's no order, then
that can't happen.
Speaker 4 (14:27):
Well, no one's traveled more than you in this room,
you know, with the four of us here. There's no
in Preston and Caden over there. I don't think anybody's
traveled more. Every time you've gone into another country, they've
always stamped the passport right to know that you came in,
what you were there for, and then when you were
going to leave.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
Why did they do that?
Speaker 3 (14:48):
Yeah, there has to be a vetting process of some kind,
and a large part of that is protection for their
own country right, protection from not not only criminals, but
protection for biological reasons, like what have you walked in
(15:09):
a field with sick cows? Because we don't want that stuff?
You know, it could be just that, it could be
like smuggling reasons. We don't want your your your your
money or your drugs or whatever you might be. Do
you have do you have this much money or any
more than this money? You need to report it. So
if we've established now that a country should have borders
(15:30):
and the borders should be protected, then the next question,
if we build on this art small argument, should there
be an agency that does that work?
Speaker 5 (15:42):
Somebody has to that's obvious, right, that protects the borders.
Speaker 3 (15:47):
If the country, if the country needs borders, and that's
a good thing, And then the borders need to be protected,
and that's a good thing. Then should there be delegated
a some kind of organization that does the job of
that protection.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
Yes, okay, I think so.
Speaker 3 (16:06):
What if people break that law and break through that
protection and break through that agency and are now wreaking
havoc in the said country? Should there be an agency
of some kind then make sure they find them and
take them back out. So so far we haven't hit
(16:28):
any snags. And I don't really know who would disagree
with this so far.
Speaker 5 (16:31):
I think a lot of people disagree with the wreaking havoc.
He'd say, oh, you know, they would just say they're
just here living their lives, loving their neighbor producing for
the economy.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
I think you lose a lot of people. So let's
just disagree with you.
Speaker 3 (16:46):
Let's not make let's not make speculation yet, let's not
make what we know from the news. Let's just say
we know for a fact someone came across that's a
criminal in some way. Should there be an agency that
tries to find them or should this just be every
man for himself.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
If you find someone, kick him out.
Speaker 4 (17:08):
Well, I think if it's going back to you going
to another country. They want to know what you're there for.
And if they found out that while you were here
you went and robbed a bunch of stores, they.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
Would go, Okay, that's right.
Speaker 4 (17:21):
Granger came into our country on this day and he
was picked up for this.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
Yeah, we can't have that here. What you would be
shipped out? Right? Yes, I think that that's I don't.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
Think by who by that citizen, no, no.
Speaker 1 (17:35):
No, no, no. I definitely think it's by the government.
Speaker 3 (17:37):
By some kind of government agency. So I think so
far we haven't really made an argument in this specific
context besides the fact that okay, yeah, if there is
an agency that does this extrication, then okay, fine.
Speaker 1 (17:55):
I think more of it maybe, and we may be
getting to this so it backed me.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
I don't know where we're going.
Speaker 4 (17:59):
What I want to say is like, I think that
that is that's the I want to say that that
comes across to me, like.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
The common sense part of it.
Speaker 4 (18:08):
You know, Okay, if you if you did it the
right way and you came in and you started making trouble,
you're gonna get escorted out.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
You've asked to leave.
Speaker 4 (18:13):
What about people who have a terrible, terrible life in
the country that they live in, and they want to
come here and they want to make a better life
for themselves, but going through the normal legal way of
getting into this country is so extraneous that they can't.
It just doesn't happen for them, and won't happen for them,
or if it does, even the hope is five, ten, fifteen,
(18:37):
twenty years down the line, not today where I am
suffering today. I think that that's the other ditch where
people go. You haven't even talked about those people, not us.
I just mean in general, is that what are you
doing for those people? That's the ones that I'm more
concerned about than I am. The guy just you know,
coming in.
Speaker 3 (18:53):
Okay, let's kind of break apart. I think what you're
saying is great for discussions, so it's to break it apart.
This week, as we were preparing, knowing that we were
going to talk about this, I texted maybe twenty maybe
maybe twenty guys, what are your thoughts on this? One
(19:14):
of them was Preston's sitting here with us off camera,
and Preston said something interesting. I like to ask guys
because it's like, oh, I don't think my brain immediately
would have gone there. But Preston said, I can't help
but think that if someone came to you and asked
you should I sneak my family into the US for
(19:35):
a better life, would we tell them, Oh, of course,
that's a great idea. No, we would actually would not
say that, right. We would say, brother or sister, that
is dangerous. I care for you. Don't put yourself in
a position to live in fear and possibly get in trouble. Instead,
we would offer help in some other way. So that's
(19:57):
not totally what you're saying yet, but it's the beginning
of the I'm say sure.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
Of let's start.
Speaker 3 (20:02):
Let's start with if we had a friend in Mexico,
he goes, man, I need a better life. I'm thinking
about swimming the river and just taking my chances. I
would be like, actually, don't do that, right, I would
say don't do that?
Speaker 5 (20:18):
Because initially you were talking about should a government have
an agency that enforces the uh taking of and getting
out of the country illegal immigrants who are criminals. So
it's like, I think that's an easy thing to be like, yes,
if you're came into a country illegally and then now
you're engaging in criminal activity. That's an obvious thing to
(20:39):
get behind me, like, yeah, we should get them out.
And so then the thing I was going to say was, Okay,
well what if they came in illegally, but they're just
law abiding citizens once they're here, Well, they still came
here illegally.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
You know.
Speaker 5 (20:49):
And then so that's kind of the middle ground. And
then what you just mentioned was an interesting scenario, and
a lot of people like to mention like the extreme,
Like a man said, well, because on the right ditch
you say, well, they're all just criminals, and then the
left it you say they're all completely innocent and are
coming from terrible circumstances, and actually, if you don't allow
them in, then you're like basically a murderer because they're
(21:10):
just gonna die, and you're really cruel, you have no compassion, right, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
So.
Speaker 3 (21:17):
Part of your question was what about it? There's two
things going on. You're one from you and one from you, Parker.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
Yours is lot.
Speaker 3 (21:24):
I want to get to what about the people that
have are they're already here, what you do with them?
And then you're Another one of your questions, aunt was
what about the people that are stuck in a country
that's really bad, right, and they might never get here.
Speaker 1 (21:37):
Both of those scenarios.
Speaker 3 (21:39):
The problem is, let's start with Romans thirteen one. We
have to see this biblical lens of Romans thirteen one.
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities, But
there's no authority except from God, and those that exist
have been instituted by God. Therefore, whoever resist the authorities
(22:01):
resist what God is appointed. And those who resist will
encourage judgment. For rules are not a terror of good conduct,
but to bad so. For rulers are not a terror
to good conduct, but to bad so. There is never
a situation where compassion has to compete against God's law.
(22:26):
There's there's never a time when you go love wins
over law. And you should also never say will love
wins or excusing law wins over love. Those two things
must coexist. That's the narrow path. And so to ant man,
what about the family that we love that the people
can't they can't get here? That still doesn't it doesn't
(22:51):
give us license to break the law. Correct, because we
love them so much and they're in such a bad
situation that this is now the finally the reason we
should break the law and sneak them in right.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
To Parker's.
Speaker 3 (23:05):
They've been here for twenty years, so they have broken
the law. Our compassion doesn't overwhelm the law where we say, well,
because twenty years has gone by and because you're actually
written not a criminal, I guess the law doesn't matter
for you. However, that person, that same person, we love
(23:29):
them and we care for them, and we invite them
to our house for a meal, and we feed them
and we tell them we share the gospel with them.
So there's this middle ground of I'm gonna love you
and care for you and feed you and clothe you and.
Speaker 5 (23:45):
Help their law abiding citizens. Because you just lost a
lot of people with what you just said, because they're
imagining the the criminal smalls in Minneapolis.
Speaker 3 (23:54):
I would say correct, because if you're a if you're
if you are actively breaking the law and dangerous to
my family.
Speaker 2 (24:04):
I'm not going to bring you into my house.
Speaker 1 (24:05):
Because that's what everybody says.
Speaker 5 (24:06):
Well, Granger, why don't you open up your house to them?
You know, Billie Eilish, we're all on still on land.
You're in a fourteen million dollar mansion. Why don't you
have them all.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
Up to your you know, that's no.
Speaker 5 (24:15):
No, So you're not saying that you should have criminals
over to your house.
Speaker 3 (24:18):
No, I'm actually saying I'm I'm saying that the law
applies to the Somalians, and it applies to the woman
that was seven years old from Mexico, who's now thirty seven.
Thirty seven years old, she's been here thirty years. They're
both illegal. I'm saying neither one of them. Because the
woman's been here thirty years and she doesn't break the
law anymore, doesn't make her now legal according to the law,
(24:43):
not according to me, right, but according to.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
The law, she's still illegal.
Speaker 3 (24:48):
So that's where compassion never competes against law. She's not
better than the Somalians and doesn't. But we treat we
do treat them differently as far as as not out
of in a way of loving the woman more, but
in a way of, well, we should be smart with
protecting us against criminals that could actually hurt us. And
(25:12):
if you love them the criminal, which we should, we
want to prevent them from digging into deeper sin and
sinning more as criminals. We don't want that to happen.
So I would rather him be arrested and incarcerated behind
bars under a controlled environment where he has a chance
then to hear the Gospel and not keep sinning.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
Okay, So.
Speaker 3 (25:38):
The question is, then, how if you're the officer, flip
the scenario. The officer is now meeting the woman that's
been here thirty years, that hasn't heard a fly, and
you're an ice officer. You coming in with brute force.
You've throwing her in handcuffs. You're trying to prove a
(25:58):
point with her, making a political point with us. You're
in the wrong now, you're breaking God's law. That still
doesn't get the woman off the hook because he did
that to her. But this is the kind of impartiality
we have to think of as Christians. It's very difficult
because whatever side of the bed we roll out of
(26:19):
in the morning, we have to come in and go.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
God is always right.
Speaker 3 (26:25):
And this has proven itself over and over and over
and over. The Bible is always right. So I have
a friend, you guys known two who's what was on
border patrol for a long.
Speaker 2 (26:42):
Time, Jesse. He texted me.
Speaker 3 (26:46):
He said, I believe in the enactment and the enforcement
of laws. Not a shocking thing to hear from a
former patrol. That being said, the law is what dictates
immigration policies, and there's a difference between illegal immigration and immigration.
Today's society conflates the two. The distinction is critical. He says,
(27:08):
you could before the enforcement of law while simultaneously wanting
reform to allow more opportunity to rescue those who seek
freedoms of America.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
That's a big thing to understand.
Speaker 3 (27:21):
You could be for the laws of America and for
saying these laws aren't good enough, we need reform. But
until they're reformed, I still have to obey the law,
so it'll go well for us. Then, Jesse continues, when
lawmaking amending is bypassed by feelings and perceived quote fairness,
(27:42):
we make a dangerous president very similar to that problem
of us as individuals. So we do what's right in
our own eyes. That's a great, great text too. Yeah,
then we get deeper. Are we ready to go deeper?
(28:05):
The church as Christians be Christians structure. The church is
not the state, and the state's not the church. That
is highly that's a very divisive statement in itself, But
here's what we need to think through this Sewo Corinthians
(28:26):
five twenty. We are ambassadors for Christ, God making his
appeal through us. We implore you, on behalf of Christ,
be reconciled to God. That's our first ministry. We are
ambassadors for Christ. So before our country, before our political party,
(28:48):
before our emotional agenda, we are ambassadors for Christ. God
making is a built through us. We employ you on
behalf of be reconciled to God. So God gives this
authority of courts Romans. According to Romans thirteen, God gives
the authority to the state to restrain evil and maintain order.
And then God gives the church a totally different charge
(29:10):
here right according to Second Corinthians, reconcile through the Gospel.
That's the charge of the church. Reconcile people to God
and be the mouthpiece of God to tell, to proclaim
the Gospel. We at a Bible solity this morning, we
talked about talking about two Timothy and Paul says I
(29:33):
was appointed a preacher. That word that he says is
actually herald. He's appointed me a herald, And in Spanish,
for instance, it's heraldo. That's how that is rendered. So
a herald is someone that is the mouthpiece for the king.
(29:55):
He goes, He's like if you think about the old
medieval times movies where they go here, ye hear, ye,
thus says the king, a new law has been made.
You shall obey the law from the king.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
That's the herald. That's what he does.
Speaker 3 (30:10):
So Paul says, I was appointed a herald, and we
have that same ministry that we were appointed, this ministry
of reconciliation to herald the gospel that comes before heralding
the country or the law.
Speaker 2 (30:26):
Right.
Speaker 3 (30:28):
But when Christians confuse those two things, the state restrains
evil and the church heralds the gospel, bad things happen
because they what happens is they either demand that the
state preaches grace or that the church.
Speaker 2 (30:51):
Enforces the law.
Speaker 1 (30:53):
You can't.
Speaker 3 (30:54):
The church could not enforce the law, and the state
is not responsible for grace.
Speaker 1 (31:01):
Yeah, that's kind of it.
Speaker 5 (31:04):
Is.
Speaker 1 (31:04):
That's almost like having the.
Speaker 4 (31:07):
Instead of walking between the two ditches, having the ditches
come together.
Speaker 2 (31:12):
Yeah. Yeah, way to look at it.
Speaker 4 (31:15):
And it makes the path even more narrow if if
one's trying to do.
Speaker 1 (31:19):
The other's job, so is your We're not going to
be good either way?
Speaker 5 (31:23):
Is your point that the local church should not suit
up in body armor and get some ars and go
and handcuffs and go tracking down illegals, because our primary
responsibility is to make disciples of all nations and share
the Gospel. And that you're saying that the government's primary
(31:44):
responsibility is not to proclaim, repent and believe in Jesus Christ.
Everybody in the United States, like, I'm just trying to
connect because I've always been confused by church and state.
Speaker 3 (31:58):
Well, if our mission, well, we are to obey the
law insofar as we're not in sin. This is a
big This was a huge discussion in Nazi Germany, like,
well what about Rome's thirteen. Yeah, well the government is
(32:20):
in sin here. Yeah, they're telling you to sin and
you cannot violate that, so you're out. Then now you
might be breaking the law of the land, but you're
not breaking God's law on that. That takes discernment. That
that was very obvious in Nazi.
Speaker 5 (32:35):
Germany, and those on the right would be very weary
of government overreach and prefer small government and be like,
you stay out of my business government. But then at
the same time, when it comes to enforcing something with
illegal immigration, where like you need to consent to the government,
you know, so it's kind of interesting, especially in the
conservative right, kind of those two things hanging into balance.
(32:59):
Desiring small government, being very weary of government overreach with
the history of the United States, but then also desiring
for them to enforce enforce strong borders. Sorry, I don't
know if that threw you off, but.
Speaker 3 (33:16):
No, no, it's important to think through because as we
are ambassadors for Christ and the Gospel comes out from us,
we can't ever limit that to laws, because that's our ministry.
So although we can ourselves obey law, and we could
(33:36):
we could tell others that it would go well for
them to not break the law, that should none of
that should ever stop us from our first ministry of
proclaiming heralding the Gospel. And if you forget the very
first point we made that we're image bearers, then you
lose all that.
Speaker 4 (33:56):
So I'm ask you this, what does it practically look
like for the true to remain the church ambassadors of
reconciliation without either baptizing state power or demanding that the
state act like the church.
Speaker 3 (34:10):
So the churches over the you know, really since the Reformation,
have kind of battled out what that needs to look like.
A Roman Catholics had a you know, a very different,
a very different stance because they were the authority. And
(34:35):
it's interesting because there's a there's there. There are still
groups that say we are totally separated, like the Mennonites.
Speaker 1 (34:43):
In fact, Marv, dear friend of mine, they stay out
of politics all together.
Speaker 3 (34:48):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, not not only the church as a whole,
but individually, they wouldn't be in law.
Speaker 2 (34:56):
Enforcement or in city councils, the council.
Speaker 3 (35:02):
And so Marv guest of this podcast, friend of this
podcast and just longtime brother. I asked him, because he's gonna,
he's gonna, he's going to give his ideas, and this
is what he said. He said, this is one area
that can get sticky for Christians that are politically involved.
He said, without without speaking of himself, without having a
(35:24):
foot in government and a foot in the church, I
could focus fully on loving them as my neighbor and
sharing the gospel.
Speaker 2 (35:30):
He said.
Speaker 3 (35:31):
I know that Paul exercising his rights as a Roman
is often put forth as an example, but it was
never at the expense of sharing the Gospel. And I
think these verses sum it up very well. He's talking
about First Corinthians nine sixteen to twenty three, He says,
for I preached the gospel. This is Paul talking. For
(35:52):
I preached the gospel. That gives me no ground for boasting,
for necessity is laid upon me. Woe to me if
I do not preach the gospel. For if I do
this of my own, will I have a reward. But
if not my own will I am still entrusted with
the stewardship. Then what is my of my reward? That
(36:15):
in my preaching I may present the Gospel free of charge,
so as to not make full so it does not
make full use of my right in the Gospel. For
though I am free from all, I have made myself
a servant to all, that I might win more of them.
To the Jews, I become a Jew in order to
win Jews to those under the law. I've become one
(36:37):
under the law, though not myself, being under the law,
that I might win those who are under the law.
To those outside the law. I became as one outside
the law, not that I am outside the law of God,
but under the law of Christ, that I might win
those outside the law. To the weak ones, I became
weak that I might win the week. I have become
all things to all people that by all means I
(36:59):
might save some. I do all for the sake of
the Gospel that I might share with them and its blessings.
There are stories and even in our American history of
African American Christians that sold themselves into slavery in Jamaica
(37:23):
to share the Gospel with the Jamaicans.
Speaker 2 (37:27):
That's one example. I was just reading.
Speaker 3 (37:29):
Yesterday, talk about living out one Corinthians nine. There have
been people that have sold themselves into slavery to preach
the gospel to the slaves. Patrick's an example of this
in the fourth century. Well, we tend to think of
(37:49):
Saint Patrick as you know the March seventeenth leprechaun guy
drinking green beer. Patrick was and it was an amazing saint,
an amazing story, and he would not have spoken of
himself in that way.
Speaker 2 (38:02):
He's talked of himself as the lowliest of the low.
Speaker 3 (38:07):
And he was taken captive and brought into slavery in Ireland.
From England, he escaped, went back to England and was
overwhelmed with the idea that he needed to go back
and sell himself back into it in order to preach
back to those people. The gospel because that's what mattered
(38:27):
above everything else to him.
Speaker 6 (38:29):
What an encouragement to us, like goy that makes me
feel horrible. They're literally selling their sauce and back into slavery,
slavery to preach the gospel. And I'm thinking of my mind,
did I even tell anybody the gospel this week?
Speaker 2 (38:43):
Yeah?
Speaker 6 (38:44):
Like here in my safe, comfortable United States of America, Like,
you know, I needed to step up my game.
Speaker 3 (38:55):
The word does that kind of convicting with all of us?
Speaker 2 (39:00):
Yeah?
Speaker 6 (39:01):
So I had a question about primary postor being to
be a gospel witness. How do you do that with criminals?
Because many times in this episode we said love, love
your neighbors, yourself. We should love criminals as we should,
is what you said. We're supposed to be a gospel witness,
(39:22):
We're supposed to preach the gospel. How do you do
that to somebody that is here or that's leaving because
they were they were captured. How do you love them
and be a gospel witness when they killed one hundred
and ten babies?
Speaker 2 (39:41):
The loving thing to do to a criminal?
Speaker 3 (39:44):
And I think we're not talking about illegal immigrant woman
that you know that cleans houses in San Antonio. That's
been doing that twenty five right, that's not quite what
we're saying.
Speaker 6 (39:56):
You're talking about like I'm talking about like federal prison
hardcore murder. Yeah, like trafficking, killing babies.
Speaker 3 (40:04):
The loving thing to do to love your neighbor with
that man is to have him arrested and under just
penalty of the civil law, because it is that's the
only chance he has to stop sinning, to stop digging
the hole deeper, to be incarcerated, and even if he's
(40:26):
on death row, to be put in an isolated situation
to then hear the gospel. That is the most loving thing,
the most loving thing to do to a sinner is
get him to stop sinning.
Speaker 6 (40:37):
Okay, yeah, that makes complete sense.
Speaker 2 (40:39):
Yeah, that's good.
Speaker 6 (40:41):
Yeah, So don't because I think, yeah, I think that's
the biggest question for a lot of people. It's like,
make sure that they are sent away for good, but
there's a there's a follow up to that, which is cool,
make sure they're sent away, but Lord willing, they hear
the gospel in their cell, they have a Bible in
(41:03):
their cell, and they come to know Jesus.
Speaker 5 (41:04):
Yeah, you don't lose that compassion like you see them,
not as somebody who Man, I can't wait for that
guy for what he's done. He's gonna rotten.
Speaker 1 (41:14):
Hell.
Speaker 5 (41:14):
God's gonna judge him because look at everything that he deserves.
And then you just the posture of the Christian is just,
oh God, I deserve. How bad a punishment do I deserve?
For all of my sins? We all know inwardly how
wicked our hearts are. If our hearts and our minds
played on a projector our thoughts for the last twenty
(41:34):
years of our life in view of a stadium, how
awful would people know that? Truly I am so. The
posture is, yes, enforce the law. The penalty for their
law is hopefully to bring their soul to repentance, you know,
and then preach the Gospel as you enact the law,
and then but not dehumanizing them and thinking that, I mean, truly,
(41:57):
that you're any better.
Speaker 6 (41:58):
One of my favorite stories is the thief on the Cross,
and the law was obviously enforced with him for whatever
he did, because he was on the cross to be
put to death and he was saved the last second.
Speaker 4 (42:15):
Yeah, man, some object objections that people would have. I
want to kind of get your thoughts on these. So,
starting the first one, if you really loved immigrants, you
wouldn't support ice or enforcement at all.
Speaker 3 (42:27):
Okay, that's great that we just talked about it. So
what Tyler saying is, what's the loving thing to do
to a hardened criminal? Have them incarcerated. Have you guys seen,
by chance that crazy prison in El Salvador. Oh, man,
y'all gotta find this on YouTube. There's documentaries about this.
El Salvador created this prison. That's the hardest. You got
(42:51):
heard of this got heard of this. It's the craziest prison.
I forget the name.
Speaker 2 (42:54):
Of it, SUTs.
Speaker 3 (42:56):
You look it up a dog, but it is crazy
and it is so locked down. It's the it's the
most secure prison in the world. But the gangs that
what's that? That gang that's like that Latin American gang
that's crazy. That thirteen something, what was it MS thirteen. Yeah,
(43:20):
all the leaders of MS thirteen, they're all in there.
The crime has gone down Thel Salvador at.
Speaker 2 (43:28):
A crazy rate because of this prison. Because of this prison.
Speaker 3 (43:31):
It's so scary that no one wants to go there,
and so they do. In the documentary, there's this there's
a section in there. They're all in there here in
the gospel, these these Ms thirteen gang leaders with the
with all covered and tattoos, with tear drops all down
their face and their prison garments, sitting there listen to
(43:54):
a man, what's the Bible telling them about Jesus? How
else would they here if they weren't taken out of
their sin and put in this isolated incarceration. That's the
most loving thing to do, right. So the question how
could you love immigrants and support ICE is how would
(44:15):
that pret What agency or organization is there to enforce
taking the criminal away from the sin that he's in.
It has to be somebody. Is there going to be
local law enforcement, local sheriffs, you should it seems practical
to have an agency that does it. Therefore we have ICE.
(44:38):
And then you flip the coin and you go. And
if you're an ICE agent, you've been given a great responsibility. Yes,
you better use this responsibility that you've been given, and
you better show compassion while upholding the law at the
same time, because if you go in ruthless and make
stupid decisions or or use bad judgment, then you need
(45:02):
you will pay for that.
Speaker 2 (45:04):
This is the narrow.
Speaker 1 (45:05):
Path narrow path for sure. Another one it's called.
Speaker 5 (45:09):
It's called the Terrorism Confinement Center CENTRO. Well, yeah, the
Spanish acronym is CenTra is a Seacott Seacott call it
up to forty thousand inmates. El Salvador's government under President
naib Ul, launched the crackdown in twenty twenty two after
a wave of gang violence. Tens of thousands of suspected
(45:30):
gang members have been arrested and held in the facilities.
Speaker 2 (45:35):
Yeah, this would never work in the US because there
would be protest.
Speaker 5 (45:41):
A med A nation, they had a nationwide state of
emergency because there was so much gang related violence there.
One MS thirteen.
Speaker 3 (45:49):
Seacott comes in there. They get fed probergill like this.
They get fed like eight hundred calories a day or
something crazy low, and it's all like flower and no protein.
It's it's basically rice and bread eight hunder calaries. So
they're all super skinny and they have no protein and
no energy on purpose part of their punishment.
Speaker 4 (46:14):
These people who say, or someone who would say little
Bitticus only applies to legal immigrants, so Christians don't owe
anything to undocumented people. I think I didn't read that
part that we owe nothing to undocumented people.
Speaker 1 (46:29):
Did we read that in the Bible?
Speaker 2 (46:33):
All of us at some point were undocumented?
Speaker 1 (46:35):
Of course.
Speaker 3 (46:37):
Yeah, that's that's that's the other side of the ditch.
That's using that's using law without compassion without love.
Speaker 4 (46:46):
Yeah, and kind of saying that Romans thirteen means Christians
to support whatever Ice does without question.
Speaker 2 (46:52):
Yeah, alutely of course not. Of course not.
Speaker 3 (46:56):
Law breaking never infringes upon compassion, and compassion should never
become lawbreaking.
Speaker 1 (47:05):
How do we do in a lose lose conversation about this?
Speaker 2 (47:08):
I think people are still mad.
Speaker 5 (47:11):
I'm trying to think of what people may have heard. Yeah,
I don't know.
Speaker 4 (47:15):
Yeah, I'm just trying to Also, and if you listened
or watched all the way to the end here, did
you take it all?
Speaker 1 (47:22):
Energy? Only take parts? Which is what we do so
much with.
Speaker 4 (47:27):
Well with this topic, is that we're only given a
little slivers of what is happening.
Speaker 1 (47:33):
We're not given the overall picture. We're only given a
little bit of this here, And I'm going to use this.
Speaker 4 (47:38):
It'll incite people for this, and this will get the
other side, and this little piece will get the other side.
Speaker 3 (47:42):
You know, Yeah, I think I think we have to
stand firm and say that that Christians don't have the
luxury of panic, yeah, or our cruelty or tribalism. Yeah, oh,
we don't have a luxury. We have to be impartial
(48:02):
and we have to stand for them.
Speaker 1 (48:03):
We have to.
Speaker 3 (48:05):
We can't outsource oppression to governments, or we can't outsource
over loving compassion to the governments. That's on us. And
we also don't get to pretend that law doesn't matter.
We don't get any of those. We're set free from
all that with the gospel.
Speaker 2 (48:26):
From the Gospel.
Speaker 3 (48:27):
We're set free in christ We're set free from panic
and anxiety and lack of self control and worry and
reliance on a government.
Speaker 1 (48:40):
Civil entity, rely on that stuff.
Speaker 3 (48:42):
We know that God appointed them for our good, and
we know that we must obey because things will go
well for us. That is such an obvious thing. Obey
the law and things will go well for you. Don't
speed and you're not gonna get pulled over, and then
you're not gonna have to pay a crazy fine, and
you do not have to go to the d m
V and stand in line. Things will go well for
you if you just go the speed limit but I
don't like the speed limit. Then we could work on
(49:04):
reforming that. But in the meantime, go the speed limit. Hey.
Sometimes sometimes I get preaching on this on this podcast
and I forget to mention that I live inside this world.
Speaker 2 (49:17):
I'm I speed.
Speaker 3 (49:19):
Sometimes I break thinking and I go, oh, I gotta.
I have to reel myself back in, so I'm not
I don't ever want to speak on your like. I'm
the guy that knows it all. I know what the
Bible says, and then I have to then adapt the
way I act to this because I know this is.
Speaker 1 (49:35):
Right, same for us all.
Speaker 3 (49:41):
We have spoken a couple of times that we're set
free from this gospel, and then we know. We've also
spoken that Paul was appointed as a herald of the gospel,
and this gospel is We have this podcast called ninety
nine for one I'm seeking the one That's lost. We
don't ever want an episode to go by without reminding
(50:02):
people that the Gospel is an offer to all people.
It goes out and is proclaimed to all people. Not
all people will respond, but that does not negate the
fact that we proclaim it to all, and that message
is that Christ came to die for sinners, and that
(50:22):
all that turned to him would be forgiven because of
his sacrifice. Not because of what you've done, but because
of your faith and your trust and him and what
he did on the cross, you will be forgiven. And
those that believe that with faith in that, their faith
shows itself up in good works. Not because the good
works create the faith, but good faith that's alive is
(50:45):
always active. Right, look to Christ and be saved. Turn
from your sin, Turn to Christ and you will be saved. God,
I love this, spurgeon said. God Jesus has never denied
center that has come to him, and he will not
start with you. All who come to Him will be saved.
Speaker 1 (51:05):
Amen.
Speaker 3 (51:06):
You got a book over there, appropriately titled Narrow Gate,
Narrow Way Cool.
Speaker 1 (51:13):
Paul Washer wrote this book.
Speaker 3 (51:14):
We do a book giveaway every time here and this
book is a whopping fifty pages, like half pages the
small and they're small and there's small pages. In fact,
mine's all marked up. I need to find one that's
not marked up. But man, it's such a good book.
If you're listening right now. What we do is these
(51:35):
book giveaways. We want to be able to mail a
book out for every episode and This doesn't necessarily have
to be something you read.
Speaker 2 (51:44):
I hope you read it, but it could also.
Speaker 3 (51:45):
Be something you share, or you get four of them
on Amazon for six books or where they are and
pass them out to your friends. It's a great little book,
Narrow Gate, Narrowway, Paul Washer, and it is understanding the
gospel in all in all all ways. So how what's
the what should they comment below on the YouTube channel?
Speaker 1 (52:08):
What do you think?
Speaker 2 (52:10):
Narrow?
Speaker 1 (52:11):
Narrow? Just narrow?
Speaker 3 (52:15):
I like to look on there though and see comments
that actually encourage me.
Speaker 2 (52:20):
So how about seek the narrow Way?
Speaker 1 (52:27):
That's good? Does it need to be hashtaged?
Speaker 2 (52:30):
No, Seek the narrow Way.
Speaker 4 (52:33):
It's the beginning or the end of whatever. You're right,
and maybe that's all you write.
Speaker 3 (52:36):
I want people that haven't listened yet to go to
the episode and look on the comments and a bunch
of people saying, right.
Speaker 1 (52:43):
That's good.
Speaker 5 (52:45):
It really is a good book. You guys should really
read that one.
Speaker 2 (52:47):
That's one of my favorite books.
Speaker 3 (52:49):
Yeah have you read this yet yet?
Speaker 1 (52:52):
No?
Speaker 6 (52:53):
Well, I'll will get you one too, because you're gonna
love it. It's super easy. Yeah, even if you win.
Everybody should just go to Amazon. It's like, what's and
just getting this very.
Speaker 3 (53:01):
Cheap the yeah, narrowgate narrowway comment below. So wherever you're
listening right now, go to run over to our YouTube
page which is ninety nine for one the podcast that's
right on YOUTUBEI go ahead.
Speaker 2 (53:13):
And have to hit that subscribe, dude, that would be nice.
Speaker 1 (53:15):
And what was the what was the comment.
Speaker 2 (53:17):
Again, comment seek the narrow Way?
Speaker 1 (53:20):
All right, there you go, seek the Narrowway.
Speaker 2 (53:22):
Many comments read Yeah.
Speaker 4 (53:23):
I got one from last week's sorry closed out here.
This is good. Thank you for always talking. Last week
we were talking about online church. Thank you for always talking
about this stuff out I have learned so much in
the couple of years that I have been watching.
Speaker 1 (53:39):
This is Melissa.
Speaker 4 (53:40):
She says, I live in North Phoenix area and was
a member of a megachurch for many years. It wasn't
until we went through a major crisis with family that
my eyes were open to know what a healthy church
looked like. By the Holy Spirit, through you, we have
now been attending a smaller church that preaches by exposition.
I have grown so much in the last year. Thank
you for teaching me. Love you guys A man. Yeah,
(54:02):
that's the one for this one. That's say one yeah
for anyone.
Speaker 3 (54:07):
Else, I would love to hear from you. I'd love
to hear where you're listening from. So comment below your
name and where you're listening from, and a man will
read that and then little tease. On next week, we're
going to bring Marshall Canalis in here, nice former guest
of the Granger Smith podcast, and we're going to discuss
something that was we got a lot of comments from
on the last one because we kind of teased.
Speaker 2 (54:25):
A little bit.
Speaker 3 (54:28):
Are small groups actually hurting the fellowship in your local church?
Speaker 2 (54:36):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (54:36):
The comments are firing up right now and I can
feel it because our small groups actually hurting you. And
I'm and I need to clarify, I'm not talking about
small groups. I'm talking about small groups all one word,
as said in America small groups. My church has small groups.
Is that actually hurting your fellowship? Marshall's going to come
(54:57):
in talk about that, Lord Willing on the next episode.
Speaker 2 (55:01):
See you guys, yege
What's up.
Speaker 2 (00:01):
I'm Granger, I'm yeah man, I'm Tyler, I'm Parker.
Speaker 3 (00:04):
This is the ninety nine for one podcast where our
mission is to reach the one and to equip the
ninety nine to do the same. That comes from Luke fifteen,
where Jesus is saying, how many of you that had
a hundred cheap and lost one wouldn't go find that one?
And really that's what this podcast has become. What is
this episode five by? And we have repeatedly said that
(00:26):
no matter the topic we do, we want to we
want to not think about a global appeal as much
as one gospel changed perspective amen, which brings us to
our topic today.
Speaker 4 (00:41):
How should Christians feel about Ice? Not that it's winner,
not that you live north, but the immigration organization.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
So it's interesting because as we started talking about this topic,
Parker immediately said that topic is a lose lose.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
And I do not disagree.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
And what do you mean by that though?
Speaker 3 (01:06):
Well, I mean it from a social media marketing building
a platform standpoint, this topic we can't win. No matter
what we say in this podcast. People are already mad
right now. They're mad listening to us, and we haven't
even gotten to the topic on both sides. And so,
(01:26):
but that's appealing to me because I've already built the
platform and I've chased the things. I don't really care.
I'm actually I want to seek truth and ground it
in the Bible and kind of communicate how we would
work through a very sensitive topic that's highly debated and
(01:50):
bringing all kinds of disunity, not only in this country
but in the world.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
What do we do?
Speaker 3 (01:55):
How do we work through that as Christians? And so
it would be easy to just avoid this time. You
can say, did dinosaurs really live, you know, on Earth?
Or is the Earth really you know, a billion years old?
We could do that and be safe and no one's
going to worry. Or we could dive it right into
a very hot topic and and use the Bible to
it help inform how we'd speak about it.
Speaker 4 (02:17):
Yeah, well, I know that there's a lot of new
people that are you know, just found this podcast and
just came in on it.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
Several of you are OG's and they.
Speaker 4 (02:24):
Came from the Granger Smith podcast or came from the
e podcast. And the truth was the same there too.
It was it always went back to, well, what does
the Bible say about it? Regardless of what it is.
We've talked about nicotine on this one already. Yeah, we've
talked about online church, we've talked about today, we're talking
about ice. Before this, we talked about everything else, and
it was always it always went back to the word, well,
what does the Bible say about it? And that we
(02:47):
hope and we believe that that should change whatever that
that's stirring up is inside you. If you're mad about something,
reflect and look, well, what does the Bible say about it?
And the Bible should change what hell we live and
what we do and how we think about it, not
the opposite.
Speaker 3 (03:04):
Yeah, because opinions are fleeting and we change our minds
and it you know, like the seasons, and we could
be influenced by a really good speaker or a really
passionate person speaking about this, or we could be influenced
by this and this could actually be manipulated in some
way because of a political agenda, and so all these
things change. Even our own emotions change, Like day to day,
(03:27):
I wake up in different moods depending on how well
I slept, if I have allergies or not. You know,
there's a thousand things that change me and the way
I feel the Bible says the same.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (03:40):
I always like what John Piper, the pastor said, he
would say, I'm just I'm going to explain this to
you because this is what I'm seeing in the text.
But don't just take my word for it, and don't
take anybody's word for it. Go test it for yourself
and see if you're seeing this in the text.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
So good. So where do we start with this topic?
Speaker 3 (03:56):
How should Christians feel about ice and immigration and illegal
immigration and refugees, and how should we think through these
things when we when we say that, where do we start?
Speaker 4 (04:10):
I was going to be my question to you, like
what what at? How deep do you jump into this point?
But what do you look first at? What is that
there is a right way in the wrong way? Or
do you know that's that's I think that a lot
of the discussion kind of starts there, Well, this is
the wrong way, what is the right way?
Speaker 1 (04:26):
Well? The right ways too hard or the you know
does that negate? You know? Okay, Well then now the
wrong way is fine? You know? Yeah, I hear you.
Speaker 3 (04:35):
I think probably the best place to start is in
a book called beginnings Oh yeah, otherwise known as Genesis,
which is the first book in the Bible, and on
that very most people. In the first page of the
of the first chapter of the first book of the Bible,
there's a little verse twenty seven down here, and this
(04:58):
is a good place to start for a lot of topics.
If you're dealing with people, let's start here first, and
a lot of topics are dealing with people. Verse twenty seven.
So God created man in his own image, in the
image of God. He created him male and female. He
created them. That is that's incredible, And you could think
(05:21):
for a year, you could meditate on that one idea
and still not unpack what it means that the creator
of the universe decided to create a being and that
would image him. That doesn't mean we look like him
in every way, but we are an image of him.
(05:43):
So when you see another human being, although there's seven
billion of them, you can get numb to the fact
because there's so many of them, you can get numb
to the fact that that every single one of them,
whether it's a baby or an old man, or a
homeless person or a president, they are an imager of
(06:03):
the creator of the and that should change the perspective
on how you hear them and treat them or think
of them. It should if you think about that long enough,
and it should.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
Yeah, I think we forget that a lot too.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
It's easy to forget.
Speaker 3 (06:21):
So before we think about politics or Democrats or Republicans,
or ice or borders or or policy that we might
disagree with, it all starts starts with the image bearers
of God. That's who we're dealing with on both sides.
Whether you're four eyes or against ice, whether you're four
immigrants or against immigrants or illegal immigrants, they're all people.
(06:46):
Meaning we start with this, We start with understanding that.
It might sound obvious, right, but it's if we don't
start there, then we start to dehumanize people and make
people less Because this person works for this government they're
less or because this person fled and is seeking asylum
here they're less of, or because this person's rich or poor.
(07:06):
We start becoming we start having partiality in these things,
and we start ranking people into systems, and eventually one
of the groups gets dehumanized and becomes less of a
human and you go but.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
They act like it.
Speaker 3 (07:21):
No, that's besides the point. If you start with they are,
then that doesn't matter how they act. We first we
look at them as they are image bearers of God.
Speaker 5 (07:30):
Yeah yeah, agreed, Meaning like you could view illegal immigrants
with a lack of that godly lens of I guess
sympathy is the right amount of word or a love
for them, like you can you can love them as
image bearers of God, not to say that you're going
(07:53):
to continue to allow them to participate in illegal activity.
That that's the lens that you're you're viewing it with.
Not dehumanizing them. I'm just processing what.
Speaker 3 (08:04):
You say, yeah, or flip it and the ice officer
that's demonized, same same argument.
Speaker 5 (08:10):
Yeah, just someone just a yeah, putting them in a
category of just a white guy who's abusing power. Yeah yeah.
Speaker 3 (08:21):
So to to that point, what we're dealing with with
this topic is Christians is two lanes. It's so many
times I think about this, but just go ahead and
use the analogy of a back road and you got
you got ditches on either side, call it left and right,
whatever you want to call it. But there's a there's
a road, there's a path, and it's probably a narrow path,
(08:42):
and there's ditches on either side. Here's in this specific topic.
Here's one ditch. One ditches. There are image bearers. They're people.
We should love them. Yes, they've broken the law, Yes
they are illegal. Yes some of them are criminals. But hey,
love them, have compassion on them, be merciful to them,
(09:04):
go easy, allow them to do what they need to do,
and because because we love them, have empathy for their situation.
That's one ditch. You can't go there, you can't go
all the way in there. The other side is we
have a law that's for our good, and the law
exists for our protection. If you break the law, you're
(09:28):
outside of it. And if you get punished for that,
that's on you. If you get killed for this, that's
on you. It doesn't matter you broke the law. You're
putting me in danger, in my family, my country in danger.
So it doesn't matter what else you do, you're out.
Good riddance. Those are two ditches. You can't get either
(09:48):
one of those ditches. Why you have to take the
path in the middle.
Speaker 5 (09:50):
Why is the second one a ditch? Just like curiosity,
like what's wrong?
Speaker 3 (09:53):
Because it actually where's the love of your neighbor? Where
is Leviticus nineteenth thirty three When a stranger sojourns with
you in your land, you shall not do him wrong.
You shall treat the stranger who sojourns with you as
the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself,
for you were strangers in the land of Egypt. I
am the Lord, your God. So where is on the
(10:15):
right ditch? We'll call it the right ditch mine as well?
Where is the love you love your neighbor? What the
wor's the the story of the good Samaritan in this
where it doesn't matter what they have done, You love him.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
So they should all stay.
Speaker 3 (10:35):
So what I'm saying is both of them are dangerous ditches.
You can't be all of either one of those. So
you have to walk a path as a Christian down
the middle that says laws are good. Yes, laws are
for our protection. Yes, countries should have borders. Yes, But
people that break those laws are not less human. They
(10:57):
should face the consequences of breaking the law. But we
should love them, and we should have compassion on them,
and we should seek their good and we should seek
policy change if necessary. But as the law exists now,
they cannot break it, and we couldn't encourage them to
break it. But if someone enforces the law with too
much force without compassion, that is wrong, and they must
(11:19):
face the consequences for upholding the law that has been
granted to you by the people, probably in some kind
of capacity, from the public. You are misusing the power
that's been given to you by God, says Roman thirteen,
and you are misusing it for abuse.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
So you are now in the wrong.
Speaker 5 (11:37):
So you see this narrow path, and then on the
other side you say, well, you can't have hordes of
people blowing ear splitting whistles in that God given law's
ears to purposely piss them off, to purposely mess with
their authority, their judgment, and to impede the judgment that
(11:57):
they're trying to enact on behalf of the government. ICE
is not making all this stuff up on their own.
They're just they're enforcing what the government is telling them
to do.
Speaker 4 (12:06):
And I think that's an important point. It's not a
group of guys who just got together and go, hey,
let's go find all the quote unquote, you know, the
illegals and get them all out of this country. Now
it's it came from the government. It wasn't just a
group of dudes that got together and when did this right?
Speaker 1 (12:21):
You know?
Speaker 4 (12:21):
And how does that? How do you know as we
talk about what is that? What is that line in
the middle that you're not in one ditch on the
left or one ditch on the right.
Speaker 1 (12:29):
Yeah, in middle? What does the tone of that conversation
sound like? Then it's it.
Speaker 3 (12:34):
It has to remain without partiality, which is difficult because
that means.
Speaker 4 (12:40):
And I think establishing that is important though, is to go, hey,
this isn't an easy thing to do.
Speaker 3 (12:44):
No, it's not easy. It's we have to also admit
that most of what we see and know has been
manipulated for some kind of political agenda. Yeah, on either side, ratings, ratings,
whatever it might be.
Speaker 5 (12:57):
Because both ditches get the eyeballs, which make money.
Speaker 3 (13:00):
Yeah, both both dishes get eyeballs. Maybe it's some of
maybe what we're seeing isn't even true anyway. So let's
just let's get past all that fluff that's the cream
on the coffee. Let's get rid of it all, and
let's let's talk just us, us in this room right now,
talk about what we know to be true. So we'll
start with this, should a country have borders?
Speaker 4 (13:21):
Yeah, I don't think you're a country if you don't, right, Yeah,
I think you're right. You can just wide open land. Yeah,
you're not a country.
Speaker 3 (13:29):
Without borders and God and the Bible, God is very
very clear with borders. Yeah, so should the board then,
building on that, should borders be defended? If or is
it even a border at all?
Speaker 1 (13:44):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (13:45):
If if it has if anyone can come and go
as they please, and there's no there's no need for
any kind of documentation, or.
Speaker 5 (13:54):
There would be no order, there'd be no citizens, there
would be no there would be no state of order.
Who's in charge here, who's doing who's the good authority?
You know, like we need we're human beings built by
God to be under good authority, and the government is
these people that are to enact a in an ideal
it doesn't happen everywhere obviously, and it doesn't happen perfectly,
(14:16):
but in an ideal situation, they're enacting good God given
authority for the citizens.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
Good.
Speaker 5 (14:22):
But if you just have a bunch of people wandering
around and there's no border and there's no order, then
that can't happen.
Speaker 4 (14:27):
Well, no one's traveled more than you in this room,
you know, with the four of us here. There's no
in Preston and Caden over there. I don't think anybody's
traveled more. Every time you've gone into another country, they've
always stamped the passport right to know that you came in,
what you were there for, and then when you were
going to leave.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
Why did they do that?
Speaker 3 (14:48):
Yeah, there has to be a vetting process of some kind,
and a large part of that is protection for their
own country right, protection from not not only criminals, but
protection for biological reasons, like what have you walked in
(15:09):
a field with sick cows? Because we don't want that stuff?
You know, it could be just that, it could be
like smuggling reasons. We don't want your your your your
money or your drugs or whatever you might be. Do
you have do you have this much money or any
more than this money? You need to report it. So
if we've established now that a country should have borders
(15:30):
and the borders should be protected, then the next question,
if we build on this art small argument, should there
be an agency that does that work?
Speaker 5 (15:42):
Somebody has to that's obvious, right, that protects the borders.
Speaker 3 (15:47):
If the country, if the country needs borders, and that's
a good thing, And then the borders need to be protected,
and that's a good thing. Then should there be delegated
a some kind of organization that does the job of
that protection.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
Yes, okay, I think so.
Speaker 3 (16:06):
What if people break that law and break through that
protection and break through that agency and are now wreaking
havoc in the said country? Should there be an agency
of some kind then make sure they find them and
take them back out. So so far we haven't hit
(16:28):
any snags. And I don't really know who would disagree
with this so far.
Speaker 5 (16:31):
I think a lot of people disagree with the wreaking havoc.
He'd say, oh, you know, they would just say they're
just here living their lives, loving their neighbor producing for
the economy.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
I think you lose a lot of people. So let's
just disagree with you.
Speaker 3 (16:46):
Let's not make let's not make speculation yet, let's not
make what we know from the news. Let's just say
we know for a fact someone came across that's a
criminal in some way. Should there be an agency that
tries to find them or should this just be every
man for himself.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
If you find someone, kick him out.
Speaker 4 (17:08):
Well, I think if it's going back to you going
to another country. They want to know what you're there for.
And if they found out that while you were here
you went and robbed a bunch of stores, they.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
Would go, Okay, that's right.
Speaker 4 (17:21):
Granger came into our country on this day and he
was picked up for this.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
Yeah, we can't have that here. What you would be
shipped out? Right? Yes, I think that that's I don't.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
Think by who by that citizen, no, no.
Speaker 1 (17:35):
No, no, no. I definitely think it's by the government.
Speaker 3 (17:37):
By some kind of government agency. So I think so
far we haven't really made an argument in this specific
context besides the fact that okay, yeah, if there is
an agency that does this extrication, then okay, fine.
Speaker 1 (17:55):
I think more of it maybe, and we may be
getting to this so it backed me.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
I don't know where we're going.
Speaker 4 (17:59):
What I want to say is like, I think that
that is that's the I want to say that that
comes across to me, like.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
The common sense part of it.
Speaker 4 (18:08):
You know, Okay, if you if you did it the
right way and you came in and you started making trouble,
you're gonna get escorted out.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
You've asked to leave.
Speaker 4 (18:13):
What about people who have a terrible, terrible life in
the country that they live in, and they want to
come here and they want to make a better life
for themselves, but going through the normal legal way of
getting into this country is so extraneous that they can't.
It just doesn't happen for them, and won't happen for them,
or if it does, even the hope is five, ten, fifteen,
(18:37):
twenty years down the line, not today where I am
suffering today. I think that that's the other ditch where
people go. You haven't even talked about those people, not us.
I just mean in general, is that what are you
doing for those people? That's the ones that I'm more
concerned about than I am. The guy just you know,
coming in.
Speaker 3 (18:53):
Okay, let's kind of break apart. I think what you're
saying is great for discussions, so it's to break it apart.
This week, as we were preparing, knowing that we were
going to talk about this, I texted maybe twenty maybe
maybe twenty guys, what are your thoughts on this? One
(19:14):
of them was Preston's sitting here with us off camera,
and Preston said something interesting. I like to ask guys
because it's like, oh, I don't think my brain immediately
would have gone there. But Preston said, I can't help
but think that if someone came to you and asked
you should I sneak my family into the US for
(19:35):
a better life, would we tell them, Oh, of course,
that's a great idea. No, we would actually would not
say that, right. We would say, brother or sister, that
is dangerous. I care for you. Don't put yourself in
a position to live in fear and possibly get in trouble. Instead,
we would offer help in some other way. So that's
(19:57):
not totally what you're saying yet, but it's the beginning
of the I'm say sure.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
Of let's start.
Speaker 3 (20:02):
Let's start with if we had a friend in Mexico,
he goes, man, I need a better life. I'm thinking
about swimming the river and just taking my chances. I
would be like, actually, don't do that, right, I would
say don't do that?
Speaker 5 (20:18):
Because initially you were talking about should a government have
an agency that enforces the uh taking of and getting
out of the country illegal immigrants who are criminals. So
it's like, I think that's an easy thing to be like, yes,
if you're came into a country illegally and then now
you're engaging in criminal activity. That's an obvious thing to
(20:39):
get behind me, like, yeah, we should get them out.
And so then the thing I was going to say was, Okay,
well what if they came in illegally, but they're just
law abiding citizens once they're here, Well, they still came
here illegally.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
You know.
Speaker 5 (20:49):
And then so that's kind of the middle ground. And
then what you just mentioned was an interesting scenario, and
a lot of people like to mention like the extreme,
Like a man said, well, because on the right ditch
you say, well, they're all just criminals, and then the
left it you say they're all completely innocent and are
coming from terrible circumstances, and actually, if you don't allow
them in, then you're like basically a murderer because they're
(21:10):
just gonna die, and you're really cruel, you have no compassion, right, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
So.
Speaker 3 (21:17):
Part of your question was what about it? There's two
things going on. You're one from you and one from you, Parker.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
Yours is lot.
Speaker 3 (21:24):
I want to get to what about the people that
have are they're already here, what you do with them?
And then you're Another one of your questions, aunt was
what about the people that are stuck in a country
that's really bad, right, and they might never get here.
Speaker 1 (21:37):
Both of those scenarios.
Speaker 3 (21:39):
The problem is, let's start with Romans thirteen one. We
have to see this biblical lens of Romans thirteen one.
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities, But
there's no authority except from God, and those that exist
have been instituted by God. Therefore, whoever resist the authorities
(22:01):
resist what God is appointed. And those who resist will
encourage judgment. For rules are not a terror of good conduct,
but to bad so. For rulers are not a terror
to good conduct, but to bad so. There is never
a situation where compassion has to compete against God's law.
(22:26):
There's there's never a time when you go love wins
over law. And you should also never say will love
wins or excusing law wins over love. Those two things
must coexist. That's the narrow path. And so to ant man,
what about the family that we love that the people
can't they can't get here? That still doesn't it doesn't
(22:51):
give us license to break the law. Correct, because we
love them so much and they're in such a bad
situation that this is now the finally the reason we
should break the law and sneak them in right.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
To Parker's.
Speaker 3 (23:05):
They've been here for twenty years, so they have broken
the law. Our compassion doesn't overwhelm the law where we say, well,
because twenty years has gone by and because you're actually
written not a criminal, I guess the law doesn't matter
for you. However, that person, that same person, we love
(23:29):
them and we care for them, and we invite them
to our house for a meal, and we feed them
and we tell them we share the gospel with them.
So there's this middle ground of I'm gonna love you
and care for you and feed you and clothe you and.
Speaker 5 (23:45):
Help their law abiding citizens. Because you just lost a
lot of people with what you just said, because they're
imagining the the criminal smalls in Minneapolis.
Speaker 3 (23:54):
I would say correct, because if you're a if you're
if you are actively breaking the law and dangerous to
my family.
Speaker 2 (24:04):
I'm not going to bring you into my house.
Speaker 1 (24:05):
Because that's what everybody says.
Speaker 5 (24:06):
Well, Granger, why don't you open up your house to them?
You know, Billie Eilish, we're all on still on land.
You're in a fourteen million dollar mansion. Why don't you
have them all.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
Up to your you know, that's no.
Speaker 5 (24:15):
No, So you're not saying that you should have criminals
over to your house.
Speaker 3 (24:18):
No, I'm actually saying I'm I'm saying that the law
applies to the Somalians, and it applies to the woman
that was seven years old from Mexico, who's now thirty seven.
Thirty seven years old, she's been here thirty years. They're
both illegal. I'm saying neither one of them. Because the
woman's been here thirty years and she doesn't break the
law anymore, doesn't make her now legal according to the law,
(24:43):
not according to me, right, but according to.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
The law, she's still illegal.
Speaker 3 (24:48):
So that's where compassion never competes against law. She's not
better than the Somalians and doesn't. But we treat we
do treat them differently as far as as not out
of in a way of loving the woman more, but
in a way of, well, we should be smart with
protecting us against criminals that could actually hurt us. And
(25:12):
if you love them the criminal, which we should, we
want to prevent them from digging into deeper sin and
sinning more as criminals. We don't want that to happen.
So I would rather him be arrested and incarcerated behind
bars under a controlled environment where he has a chance
then to hear the Gospel and not keep sinning.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
Okay, So.
Speaker 3 (25:38):
The question is, then, how if you're the officer, flip
the scenario. The officer is now meeting the woman that's
been here thirty years, that hasn't heard a fly, and
you're an ice officer. You coming in with brute force.
You've throwing her in handcuffs. You're trying to prove a
(25:58):
point with her, making a political point with us. You're
in the wrong now, you're breaking God's law. That still
doesn't get the woman off the hook because he did
that to her. But this is the kind of impartiality
we have to think of as Christians. It's very difficult
because whatever side of the bed we roll out of
(26:19):
in the morning, we have to come in and go.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
God is always right.
Speaker 3 (26:25):
And this has proven itself over and over and over
and over. The Bible is always right. So I have
a friend, you guys known two who's what was on
border patrol for a long.
Speaker 2 (26:42):
Time, Jesse. He texted me.
Speaker 3 (26:46):
He said, I believe in the enactment and the enforcement
of laws. Not a shocking thing to hear from a
former patrol. That being said, the law is what dictates
immigration policies, and there's a difference between illegal immigration and immigration.
Today's society conflates the two. The distinction is critical. He says,
(27:08):
you could before the enforcement of law while simultaneously wanting
reform to allow more opportunity to rescue those who seek
freedoms of America.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
That's a big thing to understand.
Speaker 3 (27:21):
You could be for the laws of America and for
saying these laws aren't good enough, we need reform. But
until they're reformed, I still have to obey the law,
so it'll go well for us. Then, Jesse continues, when
lawmaking amending is bypassed by feelings and perceived quote fairness,
(27:42):
we make a dangerous president very similar to that problem
of us as individuals. So we do what's right in
our own eyes. That's a great, great text too. Yeah,
then we get deeper. Are we ready to go deeper?
(28:05):
The church as Christians be Christians structure. The church is
not the state, and the state's not the church. That
is highly that's a very divisive statement in itself, But
here's what we need to think through this Sewo Corinthians
(28:26):
five twenty. We are ambassadors for Christ, God making his
appeal through us. We implore you, on behalf of Christ,
be reconciled to God. That's our first ministry. We are
ambassadors for Christ. So before our country, before our political party,
(28:48):
before our emotional agenda, we are ambassadors for Christ. God
making is a built through us. We employ you on
behalf of be reconciled to God. So God gives this
authority of courts Romans. According to Romans thirteen, God gives
the authority to the state to restrain evil and maintain order.
And then God gives the church a totally different charge
(29:10):
here right according to Second Corinthians, reconcile through the Gospel.
That's the charge of the church. Reconcile people to God
and be the mouthpiece of God to tell, to proclaim
the Gospel. We at a Bible solity this morning, we
talked about talking about two Timothy and Paul says I
(29:33):
was appointed a preacher. That word that he says is
actually herald. He's appointed me a herald, And in Spanish,
for instance, it's heraldo. That's how that is rendered. So
a herald is someone that is the mouthpiece for the king.
(29:55):
He goes, He's like if you think about the old
medieval times movies where they go here, ye hear, ye,
thus says the king, a new law has been made.
You shall obey the law from the king.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
That's the herald. That's what he does.
Speaker 3 (30:10):
So Paul says, I was appointed a herald, and we
have that same ministry that we were appointed, this ministry
of reconciliation to herald the gospel that comes before heralding
the country or the law.
Speaker 2 (30:26):
Right.
Speaker 3 (30:28):
But when Christians confuse those two things, the state restrains
evil and the church heralds the gospel, bad things happen
because they what happens is they either demand that the
state preaches grace or that the church.
Speaker 2 (30:51):
Enforces the law.
Speaker 1 (30:53):
You can't.
Speaker 3 (30:54):
The church could not enforce the law, and the state
is not responsible for grace.
Speaker 1 (31:01):
Yeah, that's kind of it.
Speaker 5 (31:04):
Is.
Speaker 1 (31:04):
That's almost like having the.
Speaker 4 (31:07):
Instead of walking between the two ditches, having the ditches
come together.
Speaker 2 (31:12):
Yeah. Yeah, way to look at it.
Speaker 4 (31:15):
And it makes the path even more narrow if if
one's trying to do.
Speaker 1 (31:19):
The other's job, so is your We're not going to
be good either way?
Speaker 5 (31:23):
Is your point that the local church should not suit
up in body armor and get some ars and go
and handcuffs and go tracking down illegals, because our primary
responsibility is to make disciples of all nations and share
the Gospel. And that you're saying that the government's primary
(31:44):
responsibility is not to proclaim, repent and believe in Jesus Christ.
Everybody in the United States, like, I'm just trying to
connect because I've always been confused by church and state.
Speaker 3 (31:58):
Well, if our mission, well, we are to obey the
law insofar as we're not in sin. This is a
big This was a huge discussion in Nazi Germany, like,
well what about Rome's thirteen. Yeah, well the government is
(32:20):
in sin here. Yeah, they're telling you to sin and
you cannot violate that, so you're out. Then now you
might be breaking the law of the land, but you're
not breaking God's law on that. That takes discernment. That
that was very obvious in Nazi.
Speaker 5 (32:35):
Germany, and those on the right would be very weary
of government overreach and prefer small government and be like,
you stay out of my business government. But then at
the same time, when it comes to enforcing something with
illegal immigration, where like you need to consent to the government,
you know, so it's kind of interesting, especially in the
conservative right, kind of those two things hanging into balance.
(32:59):
Desiring small government, being very weary of government overreach with
the history of the United States, but then also desiring
for them to enforce enforce strong borders. Sorry, I don't
know if that threw you off, but.
Speaker 3 (33:16):
No, no, it's important to think through because as we
are ambassadors for Christ and the Gospel comes out from us,
we can't ever limit that to laws, because that's our ministry.
So although we can ourselves obey law, and we could
(33:36):
we could tell others that it would go well for
them to not break the law, that should none of
that should ever stop us from our first ministry of
proclaiming heralding the Gospel. And if you forget the very
first point we made that we're image bearers, then you
lose all that.
Speaker 4 (33:56):
So I'm ask you this, what does it practically look
like for the true to remain the church ambassadors of
reconciliation without either baptizing state power or demanding that the
state act like the church.
Speaker 3 (34:10):
So the churches over the you know, really since the Reformation,
have kind of battled out what that needs to look like.
A Roman Catholics had a you know, a very different,
a very different stance because they were the authority. And
(34:35):
it's interesting because there's a there's there. There are still
groups that say we are totally separated, like the Mennonites.
Speaker 1 (34:43):
In fact, Marv, dear friend of mine, they stay out
of politics all together.
Speaker 3 (34:48):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, not not only the church as a whole,
but individually, they wouldn't be in law.
Speaker 2 (34:56):
Enforcement or in city councils, the council.
Speaker 3 (35:02):
And so Marv guest of this podcast, friend of this
podcast and just longtime brother. I asked him, because he's gonna,
he's gonna, he's going to give his ideas, and this
is what he said. He said, this is one area
that can get sticky for Christians that are politically involved.
He said, without without speaking of himself, without having a
(35:24):
foot in government and a foot in the church, I
could focus fully on loving them as my neighbor and
sharing the gospel.
Speaker 2 (35:30):
He said.
Speaker 3 (35:31):
I know that Paul exercising his rights as a Roman
is often put forth as an example, but it was
never at the expense of sharing the Gospel. And I
think these verses sum it up very well. He's talking
about First Corinthians nine sixteen to twenty three, He says,
for I preached the gospel. This is Paul talking. For
(35:52):
I preached the gospel. That gives me no ground for boasting,
for necessity is laid upon me. Woe to me if
I do not preach the gospel. For if I do
this of my own, will I have a reward. But
if not my own will I am still entrusted with
the stewardship. Then what is my of my reward? That
(36:15):
in my preaching I may present the Gospel free of charge,
so as to not make full so it does not
make full use of my right in the Gospel. For
though I am free from all, I have made myself
a servant to all, that I might win more of them.
To the Jews, I become a Jew in order to
win Jews to those under the law. I've become one
(36:37):
under the law, though not myself, being under the law,
that I might win those who are under the law.
To those outside the law. I became as one outside
the law, not that I am outside the law of God,
but under the law of Christ, that I might win
those outside the law. To the weak ones, I became
weak that I might win the week. I have become
all things to all people that by all means I
(36:59):
might save some. I do all for the sake of
the Gospel that I might share with them and its blessings.
There are stories and even in our American history of
African American Christians that sold themselves into slavery in Jamaica
(37:23):
to share the Gospel with the Jamaicans.
Speaker 2 (37:27):
That's one example. I was just reading.
Speaker 3 (37:29):
Yesterday, talk about living out one Corinthians nine. There have
been people that have sold themselves into slavery to preach
the gospel to the slaves. Patrick's an example of this
in the fourth century. Well, we tend to think of
(37:49):
Saint Patrick as you know the March seventeenth leprechaun guy
drinking green beer. Patrick was and it was an amazing saint,
an amazing story, and he would not have spoken of
himself in that way.
Speaker 2 (38:02):
He's talked of himself as the lowliest of the low.
Speaker 3 (38:07):
And he was taken captive and brought into slavery in Ireland.
From England, he escaped, went back to England and was
overwhelmed with the idea that he needed to go back
and sell himself back into it in order to preach
back to those people. The gospel because that's what mattered
(38:27):
above everything else to him.
Speaker 6 (38:29):
What an encouragement to us, like goy that makes me
feel horrible. They're literally selling their sauce and back into slavery,
slavery to preach the gospel. And I'm thinking of my mind,
did I even tell anybody the gospel this week?
Speaker 2 (38:43):
Yeah?
Speaker 6 (38:44):
Like here in my safe, comfortable United States of America, Like,
you know, I needed to step up my game.
Speaker 3 (38:55):
The word does that kind of convicting with all of us?
Speaker 2 (39:00):
Yeah?
Speaker 6 (39:01):
So I had a question about primary postor being to
be a gospel witness. How do you do that with criminals?
Because many times in this episode we said love, love
your neighbors, yourself. We should love criminals as we should,
is what you said. We're supposed to be a gospel witness,
(39:22):
We're supposed to preach the gospel. How do you do
that to somebody that is here or that's leaving because
they were they were captured. How do you love them
and be a gospel witness when they killed one hundred
and ten babies?
Speaker 2 (39:41):
The loving thing to do to a criminal?
Speaker 3 (39:44):
And I think we're not talking about illegal immigrant woman
that you know that cleans houses in San Antonio. That's
been doing that twenty five right, that's not quite what
we're saying.
Speaker 6 (39:56):
You're talking about like I'm talking about like federal prison
hardcore murder. Yeah, like trafficking, killing babies.
Speaker 3 (40:04):
The loving thing to do to love your neighbor with
that man is to have him arrested and under just
penalty of the civil law, because it is that's the
only chance he has to stop sinning, to stop digging
the hole deeper, to be incarcerated, and even if he's
(40:26):
on death row, to be put in an isolated situation
to then hear the gospel. That is the most loving thing,
the most loving thing to do to a sinner is
get him to stop sinning.
Speaker 6 (40:37):
Okay, yeah, that makes complete sense.
Speaker 2 (40:39):
Yeah, that's good.
Speaker 6 (40:41):
Yeah, So don't because I think, yeah, I think that's
the biggest question for a lot of people. It's like,
make sure that they are sent away for good, but
there's a there's a follow up to that, which is cool,
make sure they're sent away, but Lord willing, they hear
the gospel in their cell, they have a Bible in
(41:03):
their cell, and they come to know Jesus.
Speaker 5 (41:04):
Yeah, you don't lose that compassion like you see them,
not as somebody who Man, I can't wait for that
guy for what he's done. He's gonna rotten.
Speaker 1 (41:14):
Hell.
Speaker 5 (41:14):
God's gonna judge him because look at everything that he deserves.
And then you just the posture of the Christian is just,
oh God, I deserve. How bad a punishment do I deserve?
For all of my sins? We all know inwardly how
wicked our hearts are. If our hearts and our minds
played on a projector our thoughts for the last twenty
(41:34):
years of our life in view of a stadium, how
awful would people know that? Truly I am so. The
posture is, yes, enforce the law. The penalty for their
law is hopefully to bring their soul to repentance, you know,
and then preach the Gospel as you enact the law,
and then but not dehumanizing them and thinking that, I mean, truly,
(41:57):
that you're any better.
Speaker 6 (41:58):
One of my favorite stories is the thief on the Cross,
and the law was obviously enforced with him for whatever
he did, because he was on the cross to be
put to death and he was saved the last second.
Speaker 4 (42:15):
Yeah, man, some object objections that people would have. I
want to kind of get your thoughts on these. So,
starting the first one, if you really loved immigrants, you
wouldn't support ice or enforcement at all.
Speaker 3 (42:27):
Okay, that's great that we just talked about it. So
what Tyler saying is, what's the loving thing to do
to a hardened criminal? Have them incarcerated. Have you guys seen,
by chance that crazy prison in El Salvador. Oh, man,
y'all gotta find this on YouTube. There's documentaries about this.
El Salvador created this prison. That's the hardest. You got
(42:51):
heard of this got heard of this. It's the craziest prison.
I forget the name.
Speaker 2 (42:54):
Of it, SUTs.
Speaker 3 (42:56):
You look it up a dog, but it is crazy
and it is so locked down. It's the it's the
most secure prison in the world. But the gangs that
what's that? That gang that's like that Latin American gang
that's crazy. That thirteen something, what was it MS thirteen. Yeah,
(43:20):
all the leaders of MS thirteen, they're all in there.
The crime has gone down Thel Salvador at.
Speaker 2 (43:28):
A crazy rate because of this prison. Because of this prison.
Speaker 3 (43:31):
It's so scary that no one wants to go there,
and so they do. In the documentary, there's this there's
a section in there. They're all in there here in
the gospel, these these Ms thirteen gang leaders with the
with all covered and tattoos, with tear drops all down
their face and their prison garments, sitting there listen to
(43:54):
a man, what's the Bible telling them about Jesus? How
else would they here if they weren't taken out of
their sin and put in this isolated incarceration. That's the
most loving thing to do, right. So the question how
could you love immigrants and support ICE is how would
(44:15):
that pret What agency or organization is there to enforce
taking the criminal away from the sin that he's in.
It has to be somebody. Is there going to be
local law enforcement, local sheriffs, you should it seems practical
to have an agency that does it. Therefore we have ICE.
(44:38):
And then you flip the coin and you go. And
if you're an ICE agent, you've been given a great responsibility. Yes,
you better use this responsibility that you've been given, and
you better show compassion while upholding the law at the
same time, because if you go in ruthless and make
stupid decisions or or use bad judgment, then you need
(45:02):
you will pay for that.
Speaker 2 (45:04):
This is the narrow.
Speaker 1 (45:05):
Path narrow path for sure. Another one it's called.
Speaker 5 (45:09):
It's called the Terrorism Confinement Center CENTRO. Well, yeah, the
Spanish acronym is CenTra is a Seacott Seacott call it
up to forty thousand inmates. El Salvador's government under President
naib Ul, launched the crackdown in twenty twenty two after
a wave of gang violence. Tens of thousands of suspected
(45:30):
gang members have been arrested and held in the facilities.
Speaker 2 (45:35):
Yeah, this would never work in the US because there
would be protest.
Speaker 5 (45:41):
A med A nation, they had a nationwide state of
emergency because there was so much gang related violence there.
One MS thirteen.
Speaker 3 (45:49):
Seacott comes in there. They get fed probergill like this.
They get fed like eight hundred calories a day or
something crazy low, and it's all like flower and no protein.
It's it's basically rice and bread eight hunder calaries. So
they're all super skinny and they have no protein and
no energy on purpose part of their punishment.
Speaker 4 (46:14):
These people who say, or someone who would say little
Bitticus only applies to legal immigrants, so Christians don't owe
anything to undocumented people. I think I didn't read that
part that we owe nothing to undocumented people.
Speaker 1 (46:29):
Did we read that in the Bible?
Speaker 2 (46:33):
All of us at some point were undocumented?
Speaker 1 (46:35):
Of course.
Speaker 3 (46:37):
Yeah, that's that's that's the other side of the ditch.
That's using that's using law without compassion without love.
Speaker 4 (46:46):
Yeah, and kind of saying that Romans thirteen means Christians
to support whatever Ice does without question.
Speaker 2 (46:52):
Yeah, alutely of course not. Of course not.
Speaker 3 (46:56):
Law breaking never infringes upon compassion, and compassion should never
become lawbreaking.
Speaker 1 (47:05):
How do we do in a lose lose conversation about this?
Speaker 2 (47:08):
I think people are still mad.
Speaker 5 (47:11):
I'm trying to think of what people may have heard. Yeah,
I don't know.
Speaker 4 (47:15):
Yeah, I'm just trying to Also, and if you listened
or watched all the way to the end here, did
you take it all?
Speaker 1 (47:22):
Energy? Only take parts? Which is what we do so
much with.
Speaker 4 (47:27):
Well with this topic, is that we're only given a
little slivers of what is happening.
Speaker 1 (47:33):
We're not given the overall picture. We're only given a
little bit of this here, And I'm going to use this.
Speaker 4 (47:38):
It'll incite people for this, and this will get the
other side, and this little piece will get the other side.
Speaker 3 (47:42):
You know, Yeah, I think I think we have to
stand firm and say that that Christians don't have the
luxury of panic, yeah, or our cruelty or tribalism. Yeah, oh,
we don't have a luxury. We have to be impartial
(48:02):
and we have to stand for them.
Speaker 1 (48:03):
We have to.
Speaker 3 (48:05):
We can't outsource oppression to governments, or we can't outsource
over loving compassion to the governments. That's on us. And
we also don't get to pretend that law doesn't matter.
We don't get any of those. We're set free from
all that with the gospel.
Speaker 2 (48:26):
From the Gospel.
Speaker 3 (48:27):
We're set free in christ We're set free from panic
and anxiety and lack of self control and worry and
reliance on a government.
Speaker 1 (48:40):
Civil entity, rely on that stuff.
Speaker 3 (48:42):
We know that God appointed them for our good, and
we know that we must obey because things will go
well for us. That is such an obvious thing. Obey
the law and things will go well for you. Don't
speed and you're not gonna get pulled over, and then
you're not gonna have to pay a crazy fine, and
you do not have to go to the d m
V and stand in line. Things will go well for
you if you just go the speed limit but I
don't like the speed limit. Then we could work on
(49:04):
reforming that. But in the meantime, go the speed limit. Hey.
Sometimes sometimes I get preaching on this on this podcast
and I forget to mention that I live inside this world.
Speaker 2 (49:17):
I'm I speed.
Speaker 3 (49:19):
Sometimes I break thinking and I go, oh, I gotta.
I have to reel myself back in, so I'm not
I don't ever want to speak on your like. I'm
the guy that knows it all. I know what the
Bible says, and then I have to then adapt the
way I act to this because I know this is.
Speaker 1 (49:35):
Right, same for us all.
Speaker 3 (49:41):
We have spoken a couple of times that we're set
free from this gospel, and then we know. We've also
spoken that Paul was appointed as a herald of the gospel,
and this gospel is We have this podcast called ninety
nine for one I'm seeking the one That's lost. We
don't ever want an episode to go by without reminding
(50:02):
people that the Gospel is an offer to all people.
It goes out and is proclaimed to all people. Not
all people will respond, but that does not negate the
fact that we proclaim it to all, and that message
is that Christ came to die for sinners, and that
(50:22):
all that turned to him would be forgiven because of
his sacrifice. Not because of what you've done, but because
of your faith and your trust and him and what
he did on the cross, you will be forgiven. And
those that believe that with faith in that, their faith
shows itself up in good works. Not because the good
works create the faith, but good faith that's alive is
(50:45):
always active. Right, look to Christ and be saved. Turn
from your sin, Turn to Christ and you will be saved. God,
I love this, spurgeon said. God Jesus has never denied
center that has come to him, and he will not
start with you. All who come to Him will be saved.
Speaker 1 (51:05):
Amen.
Speaker 3 (51:06):
You got a book over there, appropriately titled Narrow Gate,
Narrow Way Cool.
Speaker 1 (51:13):
Paul Washer wrote this book.
Speaker 3 (51:14):
We do a book giveaway every time here and this
book is a whopping fifty pages, like half pages the
small and they're small and there's small pages. In fact,
mine's all marked up. I need to find one that's
not marked up. But man, it's such a good book.
If you're listening right now. What we do is these
(51:35):
book giveaways. We want to be able to mail a
book out for every episode and This doesn't necessarily have
to be something you read.
Speaker 2 (51:44):
I hope you read it, but it could also.
Speaker 3 (51:45):
Be something you share, or you get four of them
on Amazon for six books or where they are and
pass them out to your friends. It's a great little book,
Narrow Gate, Narrowway, Paul Washer, and it is understanding the
gospel in all in all all ways. So how what's
the what should they comment below on the YouTube channel?
Speaker 1 (52:08):
What do you think?
Speaker 2 (52:10):
Narrow?
Speaker 1 (52:11):
Narrow? Just narrow?
Speaker 3 (52:15):
I like to look on there though and see comments
that actually encourage me.
Speaker 2 (52:20):
So how about seek the narrow Way?
Speaker 1 (52:27):
That's good? Does it need to be hashtaged?
Speaker 2 (52:30):
No, Seek the narrow Way.
Speaker 4 (52:33):
It's the beginning or the end of whatever. You're right,
and maybe that's all you write.
Speaker 3 (52:36):
I want people that haven't listened yet to go to
the episode and look on the comments and a bunch
of people saying, right.
Speaker 1 (52:43):
That's good.
Speaker 5 (52:45):
It really is a good book. You guys should really
read that one.
Speaker 2 (52:47):
That's one of my favorite books.
Speaker 3 (52:49):
Yeah have you read this yet yet?
Speaker 1 (52:52):
No?
Speaker 6 (52:53):
Well, I'll will get you one too, because you're gonna
love it. It's super easy. Yeah, even if you win.
Everybody should just go to Amazon. It's like, what's and
just getting this very.
Speaker 3 (53:01):
Cheap the yeah, narrowgate narrowway comment below. So wherever you're
listening right now, go to run over to our YouTube
page which is ninety nine for one the podcast that's
right on YOUTUBEI go ahead.
Speaker 2 (53:13):
And have to hit that subscribe, dude, that would be nice.
Speaker 1 (53:15):
And what was the what was the comment.
Speaker 2 (53:17):
Again, comment seek the narrow Way?
Speaker 1 (53:20):
All right, there you go, seek the Narrowway.
Speaker 2 (53:22):
Many comments read Yeah.
Speaker 4 (53:23):
I got one from last week's sorry closed out here.
This is good. Thank you for always talking. Last week
we were talking about online church. Thank you for always talking
about this stuff out I have learned so much in
the couple of years that I have been watching.
Speaker 1 (53:39):
This is Melissa.
Speaker 4 (53:40):
She says, I live in North Phoenix area and was
a member of a megachurch for many years. It wasn't
until we went through a major crisis with family that
my eyes were open to know what a healthy church
looked like. By the Holy Spirit, through you, we have
now been attending a smaller church that preaches by exposition.
I have grown so much in the last year. Thank
you for teaching me. Love you guys A man. Yeah,
(54:02):
that's the one for this one. That's say one yeah
for anyone.
Speaker 3 (54:07):
Else, I would love to hear from you. I'd love
to hear where you're listening from. So comment below your
name and where you're listening from, and a man will
read that and then little tease. On next week, we're
going to bring Marshall Canalis in here, nice former guest
of the Granger Smith podcast, and we're going to discuss
something that was we got a lot of comments from
on the last one because we kind of teased.
Speaker 2 (54:25):
A little bit.
Speaker 3 (54:28):
Are small groups actually hurting the fellowship in your local church?
Speaker 2 (54:36):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (54:36):
The comments are firing up right now and I can
feel it because our small groups actually hurting you. And
I'm and I need to clarify, I'm not talking about
small groups. I'm talking about small groups all one word,
as said in America small groups. My church has small groups.
Is that actually hurting your fellowship? Marshall's going to come
(54:57):
in talk about that, Lord Willing on the next episode.
Speaker 2 (55:01):
See you guys, yege
Host
Granger Smith
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