February 2, 2026 • 69 mins
In this week’s episode of the 9941 Podcast, Granger, Tyler, Parker, and AntMan take on a bold and necessary conversation: Is online church actually church? Rooted in Scripture and real-life pastoral experience, the discussion challenges modern assumptions about faith practiced in isolation and examines what the Bible truly defines as the church.
Drawing from key passages in Acts, Hebrews, Matthew, and Ephesians, the guys explain why physical gathering, church membership, pastoral oversight, and meaningful Christian community are not optional extras—but essential elements of biblical Christianity. While acknowledging the usefulness of online sermons and digital ministry as tools, they clearly distinguish between supplemental resources and the dangers of replacing the local church with online-only faith.
The episode dives into church discipline, accountability, assurance of salvation, spiritual growth, and the long-term impact of isolation on believers and families. With conviction, humility, and personal reflection, Granger, Tyler, Parker, and AntMan call listeners to pursue healthy local churches where believers are known, loved, challenged, and shepherded.
If you’ve ever questioned whether watching church online is enough—or struggled to understand the importance of belonging to a local body—this episode offers biblical clarity, pastoral urgency, and a compelling call to live out faith the way Scripture intends: together.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
What's up on Granger.
Speaker 2 (00:01):
I'm the amp Man, I'm Tyler, I'm Parker.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
We are at the ninety nine for one podcast coming
from Luke fifteen, where our goal is to seek the
one and equip the ninety nine to do the same.
Really good topic today, we're making a declaration.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Here why online church is not church.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
It's not church at all.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
That's interesting comments from this last one they talked about
because we teased this on last week's episode. I think
it's funny is they took online church and then I
think they swapped it out with and combined last week's
episode in the new episode this week. AI church doesn't
offer community, so now we're going to AI leading your church.
(00:44):
But I think they were talking about online church. Yeah,
it does not offer community, and we are called to
be in community with like minded individuals. Ee from Salem, Oregon.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
Were there any comments of people defending themselves sending no
I attendant online church.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
My church has an online presence, which is great for
when folks are traveling, but also for the shut ins
who can't be there in person.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
We'll deal with that.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
We also have some who cannot drive at night. I
don't know whether that has to do anything driving at night.
But uh, my church does services in person and by video.
Because we have multiple churches led by the same pastor,
he's one that helps stay open. I guess I'm assuming
that has to do with when everything was shut down.
All named Crosstown Alliance Church, bad Church, and the churches
(01:28):
have a campus pastor. So yes, yeah, there.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
Was one though that there was a specific one. I
was thinking though a person defending saying that I attend
online church. Okay, I didn't you see that one. Okay, Okay,
that's kind of what's burred. Well, we talked about this
last week, and hey, we're not We're not going to
sugarcoat this at all. If the effect y'all known me
by now, I'm not going to go easy on this stuff,
(01:52):
because I have I believe it's that dangerous. I believe
that you are if you are if you are watching
church online and not attending a regular church in person,
and you're not a member of that church, you're not
a member of any church you just attend by viewing only,
(02:16):
and you call yourself a Christian, there's a chance you
might be going to hell. Any objections in the room
to that statement.
Speaker 3 (02:34):
I mean Yeah, sure. I mean, there's many reasons why
you potentially could be going to Hell.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (02:39):
The problem is, I'm just trying to think of why somebody, like,
if you're that invested to attend your online church every summer,
why not just go to a church in person.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
Let's dig into that. I think that's the good question, Parker.
What we're gonna say.
Speaker 4 (02:54):
I was just gonna say, when people hear you say that,
they're hearing you say going to church. Attending church gets
you into Heaven.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
Absolutely not. Usually record this podcast earlier in the day,
and I've already had like my energy drink and stuff,
and so I'm like, I'm like kind of on fire.
I feel like I feel like I'm I need to
have a little more a little more graciousness. So maybe
before we get too far. That's why my brother's out
here to slow me down before we get too far.
Speaker 3 (03:27):
In this episode, I think it's important to define what
a biblical church.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
Is good idea, good idea. So a church in its
essence is a gathering of people. The church is not
a it's not a proclamation of the Gospel. The church
isn't isn't preaching. The church isn't serving a community the church.
(03:53):
And it's in fact, if we look at the word
for church in the New Testament, it's ecclesia, and that
church comes from two parts, the the the the side
of the Greek side where we get this from. We
get this word from means the gathering, right, it's it's
always in terms of people and and it it's it
(04:18):
could be called a called out assembly or a public congregation,
but but more commonly known as a gathering, okay, And
then church it's like c h U r h that kind.
That's that's the word that's interpreted from ecclesia, and that
that's an English word obviously, and that English word comes
(04:39):
from belonging to the Lord. So that's how in the
early English translators were taking ecclesia and going, hey, this
is a gathering, this is a called out assembly, this
is a gathering of people for the Lord. And so
we're gonna we're going to use the best English equivalent,
which is this belonging to the Lord word. So quite literally,
(05:04):
we're looking at the church is a group of people
called out by the Lord and belonging to him. You
could say it that way. That would be the intention
of the biblical word of church, so that we need
to start with that. It is a There is a
capital C church, that's the what we would call Catholic
(05:26):
lowercase see Catholic Church. Is it's the the global church, right,
capital C global church. But the global church, the capital
C church is made visible always by the lowercase see
local churches. So the capital see the Church of God, right,
(05:47):
the Church of Christ is only visible in thousands and
thousands of little lower kse see churches, which are covenant
bound gathering congregations of Bible believers that have been born again,
that are Christians, that that gather regularly under the preaching
(06:11):
of God's Word, submit themselves to pastors otherwise known as elders.
They practice the ordinances. There's two ordinances, Baptism and the
Lord's Supper, and they commit to watching over each other's lives,
living together side by side in a meaningful way. And
it is not in any it's it's not any other
(06:32):
interpretation outside of that. It is not a platform or
a digital outreach or a you know, it's it's not
any or it's not a it's not a a revival tent.
It's not an evangelistic movement. It is in its essence
the lower case ce. Local church is a gathering of
(06:55):
believers that are sitting under God's word and practicing ordinances
and caring for each other. In the Bible says that
in this way people will know that your mind because
you love each other in this way. So your witness
to the world is that you love each other in
(07:16):
the church. So we'll start there. We haven't gotten into
the online component of it yet, but we'll start there.
That makes sense.
Speaker 3 (07:27):
Yeah, to recap, a church is a local assembly of
believers who physically gather under qualified leadership to worship God,
hear his word, practice the ordinances Lord, separate baptism like
you said, and live in accountable fellowship.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
Yeah, that's right. So Acts two forty two, talking about
the early Church, it says, and they devoted themselves to
the apostles teaching, which is the New Testament. You could
also say the prophets, which would be the Old Testament,
and the fellowship to the breaking of bread and the prayers.
(08:04):
So this is early on in the early Church. In
the Book of Acts, we start to see the Christian
Church operating Hebrews ten twenty four. This is a famous
one when we think about church, and let us consider
how to stir one another up and to love and
to love and good works, not neglecting to meet together.
(08:28):
It's in the habit of some, but encouraging one another
in all.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
So do you think that.
Speaker 4 (08:36):
Do you think that churches should not even offer an
online service.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
Because.
Speaker 4 (08:44):
You're saying, Okay, you shouldn't only be watching church online.
But I think the argument that all our churches would
make is you'd rather have online services available to some
almost like an evangelistic opportunity, or that like it's better
to have it and some hear it than to just
(09:05):
not have it at all, I guess would be their argument.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
Yeah, so, I guess I guess my My answer to
that would be that as far as an evangelistic situation,
you could watch that a re recording or a rerun
of that are pre recorded. We'll get my words right,
A pre recorded version of that's fine, But but I
(09:29):
think I would be more concerned with if if it's
if it is online. I wouldn't be against a church.
I certainly would not be against the church having an
online presence live even live, but I think that is
primarily for members of that church who woke up that
(09:50):
morning with the flu, or they can't get out of
bed because they you know, they had knee surgery, And
there could be many other reasons. For instance, we just
had this big eye storm where there were probably thousands
of churches canceled their Sunday gathering because of literally people
couldn't leave the driveways because of the ice. And so
(10:14):
we personally didn't do this at a Mais. But there
are other churches that would have some kind of online
service for that, but that that would be a rare
and very a very rare instance. We'll put it that way,
that the church would do that, and then we need
(10:34):
to separate in this conversation early on, we're not talking
about We're not saying it's bad to watch church online.
We're saying it's it is bad if that's the only church.
Speaker 3 (10:45):
You're to answer your question, Parker, it's a great tool
and resource. I believe it's like it's like if you're
working out. If you're not working out and you take
creatine in wagh protein, it's not going to do anything.
It's not going to build You have to also go
work out.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
You know.
Speaker 3 (11:03):
Online problem online church is like creatine. You can't just
take creating and expect something to happen. You got to
go actually work out, go to church.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
Going to church is working out.
Speaker 1 (11:13):
Yeah, it was better in my head.
Speaker 2 (11:17):
But watching Apple Fitness is your online church, getting up
and going to the gym as church.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
There you go. It's a great tool and resource. Here's
another benefit, like if I if I'm if I'm preaching
at another church, that afternoon of me preaching, I will
go and watch that our online or replay month a
month later, You'd be like, what were we saying in
Hebrews back in or that November? Because I'm reading it
(11:46):
personally in my Bible study now, so I want to
go reference what Marshall was saying in Hebrews. That's great? Yeah,
what a great What a great way to utilize an
online what's my Why am I struggling with the word.
It's not replay an online episode.
Speaker 4 (12:04):
Of church just like a recorded sermon.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
Yeah sermon. Yeah, look at I keep wanting to say
rerun like we're watching old TV shows. So yeah, I'm not.
I wouldn't be against having an online presence and having
you know what you know, I do a lot. It's
like someone's someone's in a town. They go, Hey, I'm
I'm attending so and so church. You think it's a
good church. First, I'm gonna go on there, and i'm
(12:27):
gonna go on there about page. I'm gonna see the staff.
I'm gonna see who their pastors are and how they're
labeling their pastors. And then i'm gonna go to latest
sermons and I'm gonna see if the guy's preaching expositionally.
Is he getting on there and he's doing a sermon
series about money or marriage or suffering. I'm like, this
(12:49):
is this is probably an unhealthy church. But if I
go on there and it says latest sermon, Luke seven,
you know, one to seventeen. Hey, guys, we're picking up
from last week where we left off. And Luke six go, Okay,
this guy's preaching line by line that all start there.
That's a good that's a good indicator on as I'm
(13:12):
looking for churches. And it's all because they have that
online resource.
Speaker 3 (13:15):
Well, you got to kind of expand on that. It
could be another episode. But why exponent expository preaching? Why
is that important over topical which you're comparing it against. Yeah, yeah, quickly,
I mean because we have a lot we have. This
is a ton of stuff you don't have to, but
I thank you.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
But yeah, the I guess the the easiest way to
say it is it's it's a protection for the people
that they are hearing the point of the author of
the Biblical text, and there then they're looking at culture
and their world through the lens of that Biblical text.
(13:54):
Instead of saying, let's pick a cultural worldly topic and
then we're going to go to a thousand Bible verses
looking through the lens of the of the topic at
the Bible verses. The nuance would be there's nothing wrong
with occasionally going to a topical preaching, but that cannot
(14:14):
be the regular diet. Otherwise believers are not built up,
they're not growing at all. What are you gonna say? So,
here's another idea. If you're if you are on, if
you're online only, and I had a friend recently this happened.
(14:35):
I bet you everybody has a story in here. But
a recently a friend reached out and he's asking me
some questions about the Bible. And I'm a little upfront
sometimes and I just said, who's pastoring you? That's like
a thing I ask people because it says a lot,
it ends up saying a lot with how they answer.
(14:56):
In fact, there's a guy that was just talking to
this morning. They lost her, a little baby girl. She
was seventeen months old, and he reaching out to me.
He's like, what do I do? What do I do?
Speaker 2 (15:07):
What I do?
Speaker 1 (15:09):
And I'm a Christian? What do I do? And so
my first before I say anything, I want to say,
who's pastoring you? I just want to know who is
discipling you through this because it can't be me. Don't
put it on me. I can't. I can't be there.
I can give you, you know, bits of advice. And he said, well,
I don't know my pastor. I'm a Hughes said, I'm
(15:32):
part of this church and it was in one of
the Midwest states. I ended up looking it up, but
he said, I don't know the guy. Another story is
a friend of ours, a mutual friend of everybody here.
He reached out and he was asking me some Bible questions.
I said, who's pastoring you? And he said what was
his name? I told you earlier, Judah Judas Smith. Judas Smith.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
Who's my main church is church home in Seattle in
Washington I know he also has another campus in la
He's he's probably the most famous for being justin Bieber's.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
Just so he said that, and I wasn't sure exactly
who that was. I'm not always familiar with the big
pastors like that. But then I looked it up and
I realized he's on He's on one coast and this
pastor he's talking about is on the other coast. I
was like, how could how could your pastor be in
(16:24):
Seattle and you're on the east coast. And I realized
I was naive to what he was saying. But then
I realized, oh, he's a member online, he doesn't attend,
so he says he actually does know that guy Judah
Judah Smith, but he he's one of you, he and
(16:46):
he doesn't actually physically go. And so all we got
to do a podcast about this because it's very dangerous.
And the reason I said earlier that I did, I
didn't mean to shock, to bring some kind of shock
value of if you're if you tend an online church,
are going to hell. But what here's let me say
it more plainly, and and in a farm, if you've
(17:09):
got a flock of sheep on the protection of the
shepherd and some big guard dogs. What do they call
those big white guard dogs sheep dogs? Yeah, those big
white ones. Man, They're just like, yeah, is that what
it is? No, that's a little great Pyrenees there you go.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
I would never guessed that.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
But so you got those sheep in there, great Pyrenees shepherds,
you know, and then you got one sheep way off
on the hill by itself. I would say that sheep
is in great danger of wolves. So that's that's what
I'm saying. They go, yeah, but but my I go,
I go, and I get my feeding. They're looking at
(17:53):
the trot though they know where the fluck is. They're
just watching from a distance.
Speaker 4 (17:56):
On their little iPad.
Speaker 1 (17:59):
So let's talk about a pastor should know you, and
you should know your pastor. I don't know how many
times have I said this on this podcast, this kind
of idea a lot, and people still push back on it.
I didn't put it's impossible you and I did that
reaction video. It's impossible to know all your sheep, is it?
(18:21):
How could a shepherd not know one of his sheep.
How could one of the sheep not know one of
his pastors? And if he doesn't because there's too many sheep.
Then they need more shepherds. One Peter five to one says,
So I exhort the elders among you, as a fellow
elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, shepherd
(18:42):
the flock of God that is among you, exercising oversight,
not under compulsion, but willingly as God would have you.
Hebrews thirteen seven. Obey your leaders and submit to them,
for they are keeping watch over your souls as those
who will have to give an account. I have texted
guys that a thousand times when they push back on
(19:04):
I don't need to know my elder, and I said, well,
your elder needs to know you. Hebrews thirteen seventeen says
that he will give an account. One day. He will
stand before the Lord and judgment and give an account
over you. And if he doesn't know you, that is
a that is a big problem. I have a pastor
friend one time that I heard him say there was
(19:27):
a guy that just kept coming to the church, coming, coming, coming, coming,
but never never more than just coming to the church.
And one day he grabbed him in the four year
and he said, hey, am I going to have to
give an account over you or not. You know, he's
just thinking of the Hebrews thirteen. Are you one that
I will give an account for? Because if you are,
I need to know you. And that's good shepherding.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
Yeah, it's good. Yeah, And I do think a little yes,
I think they tied together. I think they're a little
bit se with the online church in this because I
have some opinions on the other side, and I'm actually
seeing some reflection of myself a lot, because a lot
of times when I I speak with a lot of
(20:14):
excitement and the conviction, and I'm on the other side
experiencing it from you. Right now. You're very adamant, very
you already said it at the beginning. You're very on fire.
And I actually have some good things for online church.
For about a year and a half, my wife and
I served online church, and I'm looking for the I
(20:34):
want to go. I want to set some standards and
that's why I just I don't want to say anything
until now. But like some of the things that you've
already talked about, boxes were checked with online church, and
I think that there's if you haven't experienced it, some
people think is a nightclub. You bounce in, you bounce out,
(20:56):
You do it when it's convenient, and you leave an
elder who oversaw that particular service. I knew more about
the people in my online in this specific service that
we did than previously I knew about in a physical church.
(21:18):
I say previously because I'm in a very healthy church.
Now I knew more about them. I still am close
friends with I say close friends. I know a lot
about some of their lives, several of the people especially
that we served with. But I did experience the side
that most people see of people just bouncing in bouncing out.
(21:40):
They didn't come every week that you know, it wasn't,
but it was for them for a lot of it.
It was everything you experience in a good, healthy, physical church,
just not physically. And so I think there are some
advantages I say advantages. And it was also during a time.
(22:03):
This was the time when people couldn't go to church
at all or didn't daring COVID. Yeah, during COVID, yeah,
I want a lot of stuff was shut down. But
it's also it started off because it was what was
familiar to me, leaving an unhealthy church, moving crazy time
in my life, divorce, all this other stuff, and it
(22:25):
was what I was familiar with. I knew the teaching
was solid, and I knew that the growth. And I
don't mind saying what it was Life Church and who
some people might say as the pioneer of a lot
of online church. But I will tell you that even recently,
as in two three weeks ago, Craig Rochels looked straight
down the lens of the camera and said, if the
(22:46):
only place that you are getting the word is online,
you need to find a physical church to get into.
He didn't say you need to find a physical life
church to get into, you need to find it. He goes, Today,
here we're laying hands on each other and praying for
one another. There's something that happens when you physically touch
another person that you are not going to get to experience.
(23:10):
That is the part that I I it's the community.
I think for me it was the community outside of
the ten to eleven thirty, if that makes sense. The
time we're together is sitting in a pew listening, you know,
worshiping together, listening to the Word, agreeing with your taking
communion all that. Yes, obviously that is what the Bible
(23:33):
calls us to. But it is even more than that.
It's the stuff outside you know of when you leave
that service, of who are you having lunch with and having,
you know, getting involved in other people's lives that I
see as just as important as the church as what
we call lowercase C church is, which we you know,
(23:56):
other than the physical aspect of it. I had in
the online service and the online church group that I
was with, what.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
About ordinances as then two ordinances Lord, Supper and baptism.
Speaker 2 (24:08):
Yeah, those two and we I know, we hadn't discussed
those here yet. Those we we we did we would
take communion together at the online online yeah. Uh and
uh obviously no baptism you just grab grape from your
everybody prepped their own. Yeah, absolutely, yeah, and he did
it together.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
And the reason, my gosh, just help me.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
Farker, No, you go ahead.
Speaker 1 (24:34):
No, No, I've talked about your eyes thoughts. I I would,
I would, I would implore anyone listening to run from
this kind of teaching Grocell type teaching. Actually twenty twenty eight,
(24:57):
pay careful attention to yourself and to all the flock
in which the Holy Spirit has made you. Overseers speaking
to the elders to care for the Church of God,
which he obtained with his own blood, and a pastor
that is not hearing this Acts twenty twenty eight Paul
exhorting the elders. If he's not paying careful attention to
(25:22):
the flock that was obtained by the blood of Christ,
in which the Holy Spirit has made this particular pastor
an overseer, then he is he is grossly disobeying what
his purpose is as a as a pastor. Yeah, and
(25:42):
I can't imagine if Paul knew that one day people
could actually gather and take the Lord's supper. I don't
know what one Corinthians eleven would mean in that aspect
of taking it in an unhealthy manner, But if Paul
possibly knew that people would be scattered, I think he
would be absolutely appalled. I'm so I am so adamant
(26:07):
about this. Let's let's find another argument. And man, you
correctly talked about life as a church member outside of
just the gathering. The Bible is full of verses that
(26:28):
talk about a lot living alongside each other. Can't do
that online. I would say a big argument that people
listening right now are thinking, Okay, Granger, thanks you know,
thanks for you know, pushing my buttons here, but there
(26:49):
is no good church in my town.
Speaker 2 (26:52):
I did see one of those in comments on the
last episode.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
Yeah, I want to try to cover as many of
these type of ideas as you and I don't want to.
I don't want to leave this podcast without Well, we
missed a group. You should either start one or you
should move. If that's the case, Okay, elaborate on on
start one.
Speaker 3 (27:12):
Uh, you would have to help me there, my I mean,
because I wouldn't start one, but I would.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
I would.
Speaker 3 (27:18):
I would have to seriously consider moving because if we're
seeking first the Lord and obeying him and scripture and
putting him above everything else, being in a healthy church
is very top priority.
Speaker 1 (27:31):
Yeah, I agree. I think I think people look and
let me, let me just like tether all of this
real quick to myself. I I've lived most of my
life against what I'm teaching right now, m and I'm
so convicted by it because of how long I lived
(27:53):
outside of a meaningful relationship with a healthy church. Sure
always called myself for Christian I took you guys know,
I just had a Spanish class with my teacher. She's
in Honduras and she's a Christian. She says, she's a
Christian talking about the Bible, you know, through most of
(28:15):
our Spanish teaching. And I sent a pastor to her
in her town, a pastor in another town that I know.
I sent him to her, and she said he came
to our door. She doesn't speak in English, but but
we were talking about today. He came to our door
and tried to get her in church, and she says,
I can't. I go to I attend university on Sunday mornings.
(28:39):
And she told me, she said, Granger, I get God
through his word, so I don't need the gathering. Basically, well,
that's wrong, which is something I've always I always believed
like at some level I might not have set it
that way, but I always existed. I always existed around
the church, knowing a church and occasionally popping into the church,
(29:02):
but mostly I was working and touring, so I didn't
there's no way to have a relationship. So I want
to just say that is if you guys hear me
speaking right now, It's not like I'm some know it
all that's been doing this my whole life. I'm I'm
the passion in me and the pleading, and me comes
from a man who was sick outside of a church
(29:22):
for so long, And it's so obvious in the Bible.
And so to what Tyler said, I think we wouldn't
even consider as Americans moving for this.
Speaker 3 (29:35):
No, but you know what we would do. We would
consider moving for our children to get them into a
school that has a good football team. Oo yeah, baseball
team basketball, because we love our kids and we went
the best for them.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
Or we would move for a job. Yea and a heartbeat.
Speaker 3 (29:49):
We moved for raise got a good job, offer good benefits,
But we would when would you ever move for? Have
you ever in your life heard somebody say I moved
because of a healthy church? And probably you have recently,
very few, but we know in our circle we know
people that have moved across the country for a healthy church.
But but that's the obvious answer. Regardless of job, regardless
(30:13):
of family, being close in a close proximity to a
healthy church. Is that the first priority as a Christian
when considering.
Speaker 1 (30:25):
Where you live.
Speaker 2 (30:26):
Right?
Speaker 1 (30:29):
Yeah, ideally there's over here steaming at me, Parkner. You guys,
you got all these ideas.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
I'm just listening.
Speaker 1 (30:36):
Not much going on in my head, So I would, yes,
I would move. If you're in a town with no
healthy church, I would move long before I would say,
let's be a member of a online church, I think,
which I hope that we've we've already said that that
actually doesn't exist. There is no online church that would
(30:57):
defy the definition of what church is.
Speaker 4 (31:00):
The problem with that, though, is everybody who on earth
is going to hear that and acknowledge that their church
is unhealthy or even know what that means.
Speaker 1 (31:07):
This podcast is called nine to nine for one, so
maybe one, maybe one person, because there's ninety nine right
now that are going at those and never going to
tune in again. This is so stupid. This podcast is
now off my list. These guys are literally telling they're
telling me to move, and I've this town is all
I've ever known, And I would say, maybe there's one person.
Speaker 4 (31:31):
So I know that this podcast is not about this technically,
but maybe you could just give a refresher on what
you This isn't Granger's opinion. We're not here to hear
Granger's opinion. It's what you're seeing, and your job here
is to try to convince us that the Bible can
show us indications of what a church looks like when
it's healthy and then implying this is what actually what
(31:55):
it looks like when it's not healthy. And by healthy,
I heard my old pastor describe it as uh healthy
meaning the members are growing just like a healthy body
grows as it should, so a healthy church member would
be growing in their faith as they should. Do you
want to just give a quick recap of what you
mean by that? What are or maybe you could say
(32:17):
what what are some potential red flags that somebody could
consider some characteristics of their church that they would think
because this just isn't on anybody's radar. There's just church
and then there's not.
Speaker 3 (32:30):
I think the most important if we're if we're just
making this super simple, is does your pastor know your name?
Speaker 4 (32:40):
If you're the person preaching on Sunday mornings doesn't know
your first name, you.
Speaker 1 (32:45):
Can that's a red flag. It's potentially a.
Speaker 4 (32:47):
Red flag of your church, unless you're just sneaking in
and out in or.
Speaker 2 (32:54):
Avoiding him.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
I guess Parker, with this discussion, a lot of times
we can go to Matthew eighteen, not because it's like
the perfect passage, but because It really implies that you
must have a church and you must be in a
relationship with him in a meaningful way. Listen to this.
If your brother sends against you, go tell him his
(33:15):
fault between you and him alone. We'll start there. Can
you do that online?
Speaker 2 (33:25):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (33:25):
Maybe?
Speaker 2 (33:26):
Yeah, Well that's what you know.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
Okay, let's just imagine one person is in Podunt, Nebraska.
There's no healthy church, and so he's attending Judas Smith's
church in Seattle. Okay, he's just by himself and he's
attending that church. So let's walk through Matthew eighteen and
just see how this affects this guy. If your brother
sends against you, go tell him his fault between you
(33:49):
and him alone.
Speaker 4 (33:49):
Maybe there's probably knowing that church. There's probably a Facebook group,
and he's probably say he's a devout follower of that
online church. He's going to join the Facebook group and
say somebody send against him online, he could DM them.
Speaker 3 (34:06):
Why can't this be his buddy down the street though?
Why does this have to have anything to do with church?
From Matthew eighteen. Yeah, good question, we'll get there. It's
in this passage.
Speaker 1 (34:20):
If he listens to you, you've gained your brother. And
Jesus is talking here, and Jesus is implying we're talking
about believers and not you're not a random neighbor, because
he does talk plenty about your neighbor. He does in
this context for sixteen. But if he does not listen,
(34:43):
take one or two others among you that every charge
may be established with evidence of two or three witnesses.
If he refuses to listen, tell it to the church.
If he refuses to listen, even to the church, let
him be as to you as a gentile or a
(35:04):
tax collector. This is the essence of church discipline.
Speaker 3 (35:10):
So and did you have accountability? Okay, So ant could
take that with other believers. We get together, you go
to the person that's sending, and if he still doesn't comply,
he could take it to the whoever at the church
for discipline, right yep.
Speaker 1 (35:26):
So so everybody in the online church would then suddenly
be involved in this this dispute.
Speaker 2 (35:34):
How many people depends on like that service. I'm just
I mean everybody has a different experience. There's people, right,
I don't think any one unless I has experienced an
online church like I have in this room. So you
may have experienced an online church in a in a
very casual I checked the box when to church on Sunday. Way, okay,
(35:58):
and those I think definitely are I will say, I'll
adamantly say you're at risk. You are at risk. You're
not being held accountable, you're not being fed. No one
knows who you are, no one you're you are living
in isolation. If you experienced the way that I did. Yes,
there I would say probably one hundred and fifty total
(36:22):
people that would be on in that's that particular service,
somewhere between seventy five to one hundred people. One hundred
and fifty people, one hundred and fifty people.
Speaker 1 (36:29):
And those people were covet in it together every single
they lived life together.
Speaker 2 (36:34):
The majority of the time. And fifty Yes, but and
that's where I and that's the part yes. To answer
this particular question, yes, those.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
People that yes, Okay, did you ever see church discipline happen?
Speaker 2 (36:47):
Did I particularly see it?
Speaker 5 (36:48):
No?
Speaker 2 (36:49):
I had heard about it after the fact. It would
be with I think there was one instance with a volunteer,
if I remember correctly, there's something we didn't know all
the details, but there was some discipline of something particular
I can't tell you. It's been a while. Now here.
Speaker 1 (37:09):
Here's another question, how how did you become a member
of this online community?
Speaker 2 (37:18):
Went through like you could just go in and start going.
It was there was no barrier, just like walking in
the front door of the church.
Speaker 1 (37:27):
And you would one of these one and fifty if
you do that. Yeah, so you're you're risking unbelievers being
in this group.
Speaker 2 (37:36):
Sure, yeah, so you would.
Speaker 1 (37:39):
You'd be taking church discipline, for instance, in this Matthew
eighteen context, to potential unbelievers.
Speaker 2 (37:47):
Yeah. And I think the argument in that is that
you could have unbelievers walking in the front door of
a church too.
Speaker 1 (37:53):
Unbelievers do not have a say in.
Speaker 2 (37:54):
Our No, no, no, I didn't say that. I said going
to a physical church. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:59):
No. But but going to a physical church is not
a meaningful membership in the church, which is just this discussion.
Just like watching a church service online is not bad,
walking into an unhealthy church and sitting through the whole
service not bad. But we're talking about meaningful covenantal relationship
(38:20):
with the church. Sure, and everything based on membership that
like it all, I should say this way, It all
begins with are you a Christian, right, we want to
know and if you're not, you can't. It would be
it would we would be putting our whole church at
risk by bringing in non believers into membership. Yeah, once again,
(38:44):
not talking about attendants.
Speaker 2 (38:46):
That may have worre We got off then because I
was just talking about attendants. It was about one hundred
and fifty attendants. How many members, I don't know, right,
those were exactly members.
Speaker 1 (38:57):
Leaders would be brought up through the church. Yeah, So
the church is rebuked in the Bible for allowing false
teaching by Jesus in the Book of Revelation. So you
would rebuke potentially online viewers for their bad doctrine that
(39:24):
they're enduring when they might not even be Christians. You see,
you see the inconsistent the problem with this, It becomes
a huge It has eternal implications. You're talking about raising
up leaders through unbelievers, that there's ambiguity in who they are.
You're talking about I being casual with Lord's Supper. You're
(39:47):
you're The Lord's Supper is a tangible, visible reminder, a
remembrance of the Gospel through the bread and the wine,
and do this together in remembrance of me and you're
not doing it with anyone. So there's there's these there's
like eternal poisons with with this online church. Do you
(40:13):
guys said man, I feel like I'm talking too much
and I'm we're are we in this doll? Do you
hear me on this? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (40:23):
So I think one thing we need to touch on
is what about people with disabilities?
Speaker 1 (40:31):
Great, great point. Yeah, so we're we are not talking
about people that want that watch online with a disability
and they're part they're still members of a church. Because
if you're still members of a local church, then you
have members and church leaders visiting you.
Speaker 3 (40:54):
Okay, that's great, but what about after Like what if
you be disabled, you hear about Jesus, you want to
start searching for churches, you find one online, you can't
leave the house. You don't have same body of believers
and members that can come.
Speaker 1 (41:12):
Same thing. But you can't leave the house same thing.
And that's a great point, a great question. It would
be the same thing if you're in po Dunk, Iowa
and you are, say your wheelchair bound, and someone preaches
the Gospel to you in your care facility and you
believe and you're reading the Bible and you go I
(41:33):
want to be part of a church. Then you would
find one still in that area call them. I mean,
can you imagine for me if this happened to me.
It gives me chillos just thinking about it. If someone
called me and said, Pastor Granger, I've been in a
(41:53):
care facility, I'm disabled. I heard the gospel. I believe.
I want you to be my pastor. I want to
be part. I want to be a member of a
maas church. We would mount up and meet that person there.
Speaker 3 (42:06):
Yeah, that's just such a good point on just the
importance of a church and it's members. Like I think
about our grandma, you know, the the later stages of
her life. I think about many people that come to mind. Well,
my first question is what church are you part of?
(42:27):
What members can come help? Can you imagine if you're
the later stages of your life, an old widow and
you just don't have anybody, You're just in your house, disabled,
can't leave. To Granger's point, it's like that's what members
are for. Like you said, like mount up, we got
you had our meals, will come every day, We'll bring
(42:48):
you to church. If you can't come to church, we'll
come worship with you.
Speaker 1 (42:52):
We had a member had a baby this morning, and
Parker's one of our deacons of member needs and his
wife and I I was like, hey, and a baby born,
could we start a meal train? And they will start
that mill trains, you know, members taking meals to that
family with that newborn baby. There's as you know, party,
(43:14):
there's like a meal train all the time because of
surgery or a new baby, or a loss of a
loved one, or there's like people, it's not just a
Sunday thing. People are constantly in each other's lives and
coming over and bringing food and visiting and and we're willing,
you know, going to weddings and sometimes funerals together, living
(43:37):
life together. You know, President are sitting here. We were
talking just last night. We talked for like an hour
about about when you're part of a local church, a
healthy local church, you no longer have to make decisions anymore,
or no, you no longer have to have like decision
fatigue and decision after you could say, hey, man, I
(43:57):
got Tyler, I got this thing going on. What should
I do? And I'm I've been praying about it, and
Tyler goes do this Parker Tyler said this. I've been
thinking this park goes do this, and you go, okay,
all right, Lord, and then you say, can you guys
go with me? Can you talk to this guy with me? Hey?
Can you You know we're in it. We're in it together.
(44:18):
That's that's what it means. Preston. I talked about this
last night. When Jesus says, come to me, all you
are wearing burden, and I'll give you rest or in
all the verses that says the Lord is near to
the broken hearted, What does that mean physically? What is
near to the broken hearted mean? Physically? Of course, he's
near us, He's in our hearts as the Holy Spirit,
(44:38):
you know, the Holy Spirit dwells in us. But but
more than that, what does it mean to be near us?
He uses as people and they come around us and
they love you, and they bring you a meal, and
they give you a hug, and they take you to coffee,
and they they they they're they're there with you, living
life with you. That's always what it's intended to be.
(45:00):
Taking that away and making it a cold online presence
is stripping the church. God's grace of the church with
all of its beauty, you're stripping it away, and you're
leaving the Christian with a skeleton version of preaching and singing,
and it's a it's a distant, cold reality that doesn't
(45:21):
warm your heart, and it eventually will kill you. I'm
convinced of this, pretty passionate about it. I'm so passionate
about this topic, and I kind of wish you guys
would talk more because I'm feeling like I'm talking too much.
Speaker 3 (45:37):
I think it's it's kind of interesting too that Jesus
came in the flesh, like he he prioritized enough to
enter the world literally physically, to be with us, to disciplists,
to teach us, to show us. You know, it's not
(45:59):
really I was just a thought that came to my
mind about how important that being together is. The King
of kings literally came to sit with us better speaking
from online through the clouds.
Speaker 1 (46:16):
You know, as a not human. I think that's an
incredible way to think about it. Christ came the incarnation
mean God, dwelt among us in the flesh and broke
bread with us.
Speaker 2 (46:30):
A God.
Speaker 1 (46:32):
Ate with us, and drank with us, and cried with us,
and slept in tents and walked through dirt and suffered
the loss of great friends and ultimately died on a
cross and the worst form of execution with his people
(46:54):
for his people, to be a substitute for his people,
to forgive his people all because he loved as people. Yeah,
so that his people would know him and love each
other and tend to each other, and so that there
could be leaders that tend to the flock, and there
(47:14):
could be that there could be sheep that that raise
up to become leaders from within the flock and then
go off and start new flocks. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (47:23):
So you take that, and then you compare that against
online and Jesus's love and everything that you just said
for us, for his people, And then you think about
the isolation and how much the devil would love for
you to stay in your pajamas in your home with
(47:47):
nobody there but you and a screen. You know, it's
something to think about.
Speaker 1 (47:53):
Another thing is what would what does it communicate to
your kids, like parents out there, what is it communicating
to your kids when you're deprioritizing a physical gathering. I
promise you those kids will not respect going to a
physical church later in their life if they grew up
(48:13):
seeing mom and dad watch it online. Why would they
ever go into a real building when they could sleep
in and eat a donut and wear their pajamas.
Speaker 2 (48:21):
Never be I think even more, Never be challenged, never
be questioned, Never have any kind of listen grangeer. If
you text me and said, hey, I missed you today,
how come you didn't come over for the podcast? Yeah,
I'm sorry. I got busy. But I saw you and
(48:42):
you looked at me, and you go where were you?
That's way different. We're staring at each other now and
you just want to know, Yeah, there's some accountability between
two physical people that is not there with this or
(49:05):
a computer screen or anything else. And as much as
I've told you my good I had a great experience
with online church for what you can have a great
experience online church with sure, And I will tell you
oft you said to you want other people to talk.
I I pushed back on things, but I will tell
(49:27):
you it is not the answer. Online church is not
the answer you. If you can't be what you just said,
we can't be involved in each other's lives in a
physical way. If all it is is digital, there's a barrier.
(49:49):
It's a bear. There's a barrier it's you know, more
than more than clothes.
Speaker 1 (49:55):
Almost, like we talked about last week.
Speaker 2 (49:58):
Yeah, it's a lot of that, and it all kind
of and it's funny that that one comment that I
read was that it said AI church, which evidently you
know that is what it can and could become. What
are you? How are you involved in each other's lives
every day of the week, seven days a week, not
one day, not for thirty minutes or forty five minutes.
(50:21):
How you know? Who are you doing life with? And
I will tell you, Oh, go ahead, go ahead, I'll
tell you that that right there was what we were like,
we're having a good experience, but we're missing something. Wow,
we're having a great experience and we're investing in others'
lives and we're praying with people and we're seeing God
change people, but we're missing something. And He's like, not
(50:46):
in my church.
Speaker 1 (50:47):
And dude, and I'm sorry, I didn't know this conversation
was going this way before we started recording. And I
didn't know that you were going to have this. Here's
history with online church?
Speaker 2 (50:57):
Yeah, and I didn't tell you until we sit down.
I actually had a long history with them.
Speaker 1 (51:01):
So like you kind of see my shock in this
was real time. Well good, But I want to tell
you also, first of all, I love you. And what
the local church also does is it it gives you
assurance of the faith. Yes, because we could deceive ourselves
(51:24):
and we could start to say things like I don't
know I read the Bible and I don't even know
if I'm actually a Christian. Yep, I still sin so
have these thoughts. Who's to say I'm not just deceiving myself.
Speaker 3 (51:36):
I'm not.
Speaker 1 (51:37):
I'm not even a believer or the flip side of that. Yeah,
I'm a believer. Of course, I'm a believer. I've always
been a believer. Nothing gonna stop me from thinking I'm
a believer. What the church does is they affirm that
belief that you make the profession, and the church affirms
the profession because they walk with you. So your people
(52:01):
at first Baptist Slado Anthony, is he a Christian? Yeah?
How do you know? I've seen him day in and
day out. I've seen hi. I'm seeing him, pray. I've
seen him coming in here with his wife and his daughter.
I've seen him through good times and bad times. I've
seen him. I've seen him come through and this and that,
and I've seen him. I've seen him steadfast with the Lord.
(52:23):
It's not that he's perfect, but i've seen him. I've
seen his walk. That man is a believer. And then
how about you, Sally, I could affirm ant man's a
bel how about you, Tom, I'm with him too. We
could all affirm Anthony's. So even when you're saying I
don't know if I'm a Christian, there's all these people
come around and you go, you are brother, stand firm,
you're with us?
Speaker 2 (52:43):
A church does that, agreed?
Speaker 1 (52:49):
Man? Don't we need that?
Speaker 2 (52:51):
Everyone does? And it's not some people, and it's not
a few of us or the majority of us. Every
single believer needs that. Yeah, every single one. Yeah. The
ninety nine and the one are just numbers that Jesus
used in the parables. It's every single it's not one hundred,
(53:13):
it's every single one.
Speaker 3 (53:15):
You online, you could ask that question and then you
could give a little thumbs emoji.
Speaker 1 (53:19):
Do we affirm? And everybody does it?
Speaker 2 (53:22):
So you have done it.
Speaker 1 (53:25):
But I could imagine what it's like. Ephesians four fifteen says,
rather speaking the truth and love, we are to grow
up in every way into Him who is the head
into Christ, from whom the whole body joined and held
together by every joint with which it is equipped. When
(53:47):
each part is working properly, making the body grow so
that it builds itself up in love. So when each member,
each part of the body is working properly, the body
grows and is built up in itself. That growth happens together.
We grow together.
Speaker 3 (54:09):
So for the people listening like that don't know where
to find a healthy church, what is a resource that
we can give them? That's this little book? Why should
I join a church? I mean they live in Podunk, Nebraska.
Speaker 1 (54:32):
Seem to giving this away. Maybe we should do this, Okay,
so specifically to Podunk Nebraska.
Speaker 3 (54:39):
There an hour outside of Lincoln, middle of nowhere.
Speaker 1 (54:43):
If you're in if you're in America, you're already in
good shape. Which is literally the reason we have missions,
because there are unreached people that don't even You know what,
when we think about missions, we think about global outreach,
and our are absolute mandate to do that as believers,
(55:03):
to carry out the Great commission, along with other believers
from every decade before us, to take the Gospel to
all nations, to teach with discipleship others to obey Christ.
When we say that and we think about unreached people,
we're not talking about the neighbor down the road who's
never heard the gospel because he has access to it.
(55:27):
Mike down here, who he doesn't have a God at all,
he's just an atheist, and we go, he's never even
heard the gospel. That's Mike's not considered unreached because he's
around the Bible belt. He has, you know, he drives
to work every day and sees fifteen churches. But we're
talking about unreached people who literally will will be born,
(55:49):
will they will, they will be born, and they will
die and never hear about Christ, not because they don't
want to, because it's literally not accessible. So we take
it when we when we think about reaching the nations,
we're thinking in that way. But when we're talking about
Potunt Nebraska, there is most likely in Podunk Nebraska a
(56:10):
church that might not check every box, but it's a
it's got a pastor who fears the Lord, loves Jesus,
and and he will be sufficient for sitting under and
loving your neighbor within that.
Speaker 2 (56:27):
Local body.
Speaker 1 (56:30):
Better than church home in Seattle online. But pattro I
would highly encourage that brother or sister to consider moving
to another town with it what they know is a
healthy church.
Speaker 3 (56:51):
Yeah, that the town where we grew up, or at
least Parker did. Population two twenty seven. I looked it
up the other day. Is talking about hometowns, and there's
two churches that I know of and in a town
with a population of two hundred people. So yeah, that's
a good place to start.
Speaker 1 (57:12):
And then and then I've heard of people driving because
some people drive an hour, live in Podunk, whatever, drive
an hour to to Lincoln or to Omaha to uh
a good church. So there's there's three options. I would
say my my biggest encouragement would be move. It's it's
(57:35):
that important to leave your job and get a new job.
It's that important to move your kids out of the school.
It's that important to move. Second option to be drive
an hour, drive an hour. It's hard to do that
because you're now you're you're needing to spend the entire
Sunday and sometimes Wednesdays. You wouldn't think twice if it's
(57:56):
your job to drive into town for an hour for
that commute. People do that all the time. And then
the third option, take your kids to practice. Yeah, but
you hesitate when it's you take your kids to a
to a travel ball tournament three hours away, no problem
on a Sunday. And then the third option, there's there's
(58:16):
some church in that town where some some pastor loves
the Lord and you might not check every box, but
he loves the Lord and you could serve your people.
Well there, that's that's option number three. All of those
prevent death over online church Parker nothing. Don Marker knows
(58:40):
a lot about this topic.
Speaker 5 (58:42):
He knows a lot. And he is being very quiet,
and her dad's some caffeine. Back into mind my life.
We're going to do a book giveaway.
Speaker 2 (58:54):
Yeah, you're gonna give that one away.
Speaker 1 (58:55):
I was thinking about it.
Speaker 2 (58:56):
I had this one you had somebody there.
Speaker 1 (58:58):
Oh, I love that book. One begin to read that.
Have you read that book?
Speaker 2 (59:01):
Which one? Is it?
Speaker 1 (59:02):
Narrow Gate?
Speaker 2 (59:03):
Narrow Way?
Speaker 1 (59:03):
No? I have two of them. They're they're little bitty books.
And and then as I started to kind of think
it through ideas, I was like, maybe I should do
this book. Why should I join a church? It has
it super It's like forty pages. But he gives. He gives,
like I think there's seven reasons. Join a church to
(59:24):
display the gospel. The gospel. The church is the gathered people.
That's the church. The gospel is displayed through the gathered
people loving each other from all different all different backgrounds,
coming together united in Christ and loving each other. That
is a strange thing to the world. Number two, Join
(59:47):
a church because the Bible requires it. We talked a
little bit about that. Number three, Join a church to
love other Christians and edify the church. If our commandment
is love your neighbor, love others, how could you do that?
(01:00:08):
And you can't do that in isolation. You can't do
that in isolation. Number what am I for? Join a
church to evangelize the world. The church then sends out
and goes. It gathers to scatter, goes into the neighborhoods
to evangelize, goes into the nations as the church. Number five.
Join a church to assure yourself. We talked about that
(01:00:29):
assurance comes from the church. Number six. Join a church
to expose false gospels. The church decides if there's false teaching,
and we know this because Jesus rebukes the church. You
allowed this false teaching you allowed. This is funny. There's
plenty of rebuking the false teachers, but it's funny that
(01:00:50):
he goes after the church. You allowed this. So this
is on you. This blood's on your hands. Oh man, yeah, yeah, okay.
So the church, the collective God that gathered church rejects
false Gospel number seven. Of course we should guess join
a church to glorify God. If you're a Christian, you
(01:01:15):
should join a church for the glory of God. Peter
wrote to some early Christians live such good lives among
the pagans that they accuse you of doing wrong. They
may see your good deeds and glorify God on the
day that he visits us one Peter, two twelve. That's amazing.
Speaker 2 (01:01:34):
What's it called?
Speaker 1 (01:01:36):
Why should I Join a Church? A little pamphlet about
forty pages long.
Speaker 2 (01:01:40):
All right, so comment join a church? Join a church,
And for the people asking about how are they notified?
You'll have a comment on your comment from Caden that
will be asking you for some details. So that's how
you'll know it's you. If it's you, you will have
a comment on you your comment. Uh, so you can
(01:02:02):
write anything else you want to make sure you're right,
join a church if you would like to get that book.
Speaker 1 (01:02:08):
We have some guests here as we always do. Plus, Kayden,
did we miss anything in this conversation? Did you guys
have something occurred to you as we're talking. You're like,
you didn't bring that up? That they should where they
have small Yeah, we should do another episode on small groups.
(01:02:34):
I'm actually against you might say what he said because yeah, sorry,
you're right. He said, what if your what if your
church is so big that your pastors can't know you
because it's so big, but they have small groups? Which
is which is such an American argument, so many churches,
And it's a good question, Caleb, but I would actually
argue that small groups actually hinder the fellowship of the
gathering because it for men in many ways, one being
(01:02:57):
it creates clicks, and it actually harms the church from
being able to come together as a church. Instead, they're
coming together in groups that never see each other and
never have fellowship and usually stay for long periods of
time and are hard to get into and hard to
(01:03:18):
get out of. And so big churches constantly push this idea, Well,
we have a big church in our pastor may not
know you but that's why we have small groups, and
so we just get But now the teachings divided, the
people are segregated. They're usually clicking together because of they
like each other and they have stuff in common, and
all of that is actually hindering fellowship of the body
(01:03:42):
itself because Jesus talks about the body coming together with
all its different members and building each other up because
of all the differences in the members. But then you're
clicking out in these small groups that are similar to
each other, and nobody's beenefitting and it ends up just
being a buddy group that you just sit there and
(01:04:03):
talk about, Hey, who else has got something going on
wrong in their life right now? And how could we
give a word of encouragement? And that's just not church,
not Smarker.
Speaker 4 (01:04:12):
Yeah, I don't know if you how much you want
to go into small groups, but the other issues a
lot of times they you just end up in a
group of people who are in a similar life stage
as you, or you'd probably be friends with anyway, even
if Jesus didn't rise from the dead.
Speaker 1 (01:04:26):
And like, one of the things that's so cool.
Speaker 4 (01:04:28):
About about a gospel witness of a church is when
you have people like I'm convicted about this right now
because I do meet with guys in my similar life
stage weekly, and I need to like constantly be challenged
to reach out to people who are not in my
same life stage, because that's what makes the church so
awesome is when you have somebody that's you know, you
(01:04:52):
have the sixty five year old black guy with the
twenty five year old white guy and that are in
completely different life stages, but get together because they both
love Jesus and they can like live that out in
a way that the world is like. And what world
would you two be getting lunched together on a Tuesday.
Speaker 1 (01:05:14):
This beautiful man. Amen. Yeah, that's that's such a gospel
witness when you which is once again why I'm against
cowboy churches. That's why I'm against biker churches. I'm not
saying this every podcast. I'm against any kind of clique
churches that calls out specific kinds or groups or or
ethnicities of people. And when you call a group out
(01:05:36):
like that, it's not a church that, as you have
decided now because because of you're you agree politically or
you agree even work wise. Now, I'm not saying you
whenever I make this argument. I got to say too,
it's not like you go to Kenya and you go
look at this churches. Everyone looks very Kenyon. Well, of course,
(01:05:58):
because you're going to be influenced by your geography obviously,
but I think as so much as your community allows,
your church should look like a ragtag group of people
that Christ called out of the world and to each other.
And that's different age groups and different different economic statuses,
(01:06:19):
and many times even looking very different small groups always
hinder that they end up dividing people that were kind
of like Parker said, same age group, kind of same
life stage.
Speaker 4 (01:06:31):
And God's just so specific about the shepherd's role, not
the small group's role. Like there is like interpersonal co
accountability that happens through the church, that can happen through
meeting regularly for coffee during the week and stuff, but
that doesn't replace God's means of the shepherding of the flock,
(01:06:53):
which is for the pastors.
Speaker 1 (01:06:56):
You think about Jesus when he called his group of
disciples it's original group. He called a zelot, a Jewish
zelot that was like, you know, the hardcore keeper of
the religion. And then he calls a tax collector, and
he says, you guys, work it out your mind. Now
(01:07:17):
I'm calling you guys both. Can you imagine the conversations
between a Zelot and a tax collector, tax collector being
a jew that was working with the Roman government right
to tax the Jewish people, and the Zelots like, we
need a breakaway, we need a revolt from the Roman empire.
And you got this trader that's working with him. And
Jesus says, you and you together, let's go, ready to walk.
(01:07:44):
Those two guys would never have picked each other.
Speaker 2 (01:07:45):
Yeah, oh yeah, and more times than I did, did
everything they could just stay away from that other.
Speaker 1 (01:07:53):
Absolutely. Okay, where are we at it?
Speaker 2 (01:07:56):
Like it's it, We're good. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:08:00):
The gospel, which which I said earlier, is that Christ
Christ is in our place. He died of the cross
so that anyone who looks to him, anyone that looks
to him, would be saved and be forgiven of their sins,
would be what would not be seen as condemned in
front of a holy God because of their sin. Amen, hallelujah.
Christ did that to all who looked at him, all
(01:08:22):
different people and tongues and economic situations in life stages,
all who look to him will be saved. That's the gospel.
And when those people believe and they look to Christ
as their savior, they always it's like a it's like
a knee jerk reflex. They want to find other people
(01:08:43):
who see Christ the same way, and they end up
in the church. You don't have to tell Christians to
find a church. They will find it eventually. They want
to start looking, and so sometimes we do this podcast.
The whole idea is we say things just so that
one person out there goes he's saying what I knew
(01:09:04):
to be true in my heart already. You know, I'm
not telling you a new idea that the Holy Spirit
has not already witnessed within you. You're hearing it and
you go, that's what I thought was right, and I
just couldn't articulate it. Honey. Let's find the church. That's
all we got. Let's seey'll next time, ye
What's up on Granger.
Speaker 2 (00:01):
I'm the amp Man, I'm Tyler, I'm Parker.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
We are at the ninety nine for one podcast coming
from Luke fifteen, where our goal is to seek the
one and equip the ninety nine to do the same.
Really good topic today, we're making a declaration.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Here why online church is not church.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
It's not church at all.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
That's interesting comments from this last one they talked about
because we teased this on last week's episode. I think
it's funny is they took online church and then I
think they swapped it out with and combined last week's
episode in the new episode this week. AI church doesn't
offer community, so now we're going to AI leading your church.
(00:44):
But I think they were talking about online church. Yeah,
it does not offer community, and we are called to
be in community with like minded individuals. Ee from Salem, Oregon.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
Were there any comments of people defending themselves sending no
I attendant online church.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
My church has an online presence, which is great for
when folks are traveling, but also for the shut ins
who can't be there in person.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
We'll deal with that.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
We also have some who cannot drive at night. I
don't know whether that has to do anything driving at night.
But uh, my church does services in person and by video.
Because we have multiple churches led by the same pastor,
he's one that helps stay open. I guess I'm assuming
that has to do with when everything was shut down.
All named Crosstown Alliance Church, bad Church, and the churches
(01:28):
have a campus pastor. So yes, yeah, there.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
Was one though that there was a specific one. I
was thinking though a person defending saying that I attend
online church. Okay, I didn't you see that one. Okay, Okay,
that's kind of what's burred. Well, we talked about this
last week, and hey, we're not We're not going to
sugarcoat this at all. If the effect y'all known me
by now, I'm not going to go easy on this stuff,
(01:52):
because I have I believe it's that dangerous. I believe
that you are if you are if you are watching
church online and not attending a regular church in person,
and you're not a member of that church, you're not
a member of any church you just attend by viewing only,
(02:16):
and you call yourself a Christian, there's a chance you
might be going to hell. Any objections in the room
to that statement.
Speaker 3 (02:34):
I mean Yeah, sure. I mean, there's many reasons why
you potentially could be going to Hell.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (02:39):
The problem is, I'm just trying to think of why somebody, like,
if you're that invested to attend your online church every summer,
why not just go to a church in person.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
Let's dig into that. I think that's the good question, Parker.
What we're gonna say.
Speaker 4 (02:54):
I was just gonna say, when people hear you say that,
they're hearing you say going to church. Attending church gets
you into Heaven.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
Absolutely not. Usually record this podcast earlier in the day,
and I've already had like my energy drink and stuff,
and so I'm like, I'm like kind of on fire.
I feel like I feel like I'm I need to
have a little more a little more graciousness. So maybe
before we get too far. That's why my brother's out
here to slow me down before we get too far.
Speaker 3 (03:27):
In this episode, I think it's important to define what
a biblical church.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
Is good idea, good idea. So a church in its
essence is a gathering of people. The church is not
a it's not a proclamation of the Gospel. The church
isn't isn't preaching. The church isn't serving a community the church.
(03:53):
And it's in fact, if we look at the word
for church in the New Testament, it's ecclesia, and that
church comes from two parts, the the the the side
of the Greek side where we get this from. We
get this word from means the gathering, right, it's it's
always in terms of people and and it it's it
(04:18):
could be called a called out assembly or a public congregation,
but but more commonly known as a gathering, okay, And
then church it's like c h U r h that kind.
That's that's the word that's interpreted from ecclesia, and that
that's an English word obviously, and that English word comes
(04:39):
from belonging to the Lord. So that's how in the
early English translators were taking ecclesia and going, hey, this
is a gathering, this is a called out assembly, this
is a gathering of people for the Lord. And so
we're gonna we're going to use the best English equivalent,
which is this belonging to the Lord word. So quite literally,
(05:04):
we're looking at the church is a group of people
called out by the Lord and belonging to him. You
could say it that way. That would be the intention
of the biblical word of church, so that we need
to start with that. It is a There is a
capital C church, that's the what we would call Catholic
(05:26):
lowercase see Catholic Church. Is it's the the global church, right,
capital C global church. But the global church, the capital
C church is made visible always by the lowercase see
local churches. So the capital see the Church of God, right,
(05:47):
the Church of Christ is only visible in thousands and
thousands of little lower kse see churches, which are covenant
bound gathering congregations of Bible believers that have been born again,
that are Christians, that that gather regularly under the preaching
(06:11):
of God's Word, submit themselves to pastors otherwise known as elders.
They practice the ordinances. There's two ordinances, Baptism and the
Lord's Supper, and they commit to watching over each other's lives,
living together side by side in a meaningful way. And
it is not in any it's it's not any other
(06:32):
interpretation outside of that. It is not a platform or
a digital outreach or a you know, it's it's not
any or it's not a it's not a a revival tent.
It's not an evangelistic movement. It is in its essence
the lower case ce. Local church is a gathering of
(06:55):
believers that are sitting under God's word and practicing ordinances
and caring for each other. In the Bible says that
in this way people will know that your mind because
you love each other in this way. So your witness
to the world is that you love each other in
(07:16):
the church. So we'll start there. We haven't gotten into
the online component of it yet, but we'll start there.
That makes sense.
Speaker 3 (07:27):
Yeah, to recap, a church is a local assembly of
believers who physically gather under qualified leadership to worship God,
hear his word, practice the ordinances Lord, separate baptism like
you said, and live in accountable fellowship.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
Yeah, that's right. So Acts two forty two, talking about
the early Church, it says, and they devoted themselves to
the apostles teaching, which is the New Testament. You could
also say the prophets, which would be the Old Testament,
and the fellowship to the breaking of bread and the prayers.
(08:04):
So this is early on in the early Church. In
the Book of Acts, we start to see the Christian
Church operating Hebrews ten twenty four. This is a famous
one when we think about church, and let us consider
how to stir one another up and to love and
to love and good works, not neglecting to meet together.
(08:28):
It's in the habit of some, but encouraging one another
in all.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
So do you think that.
Speaker 4 (08:36):
Do you think that churches should not even offer an
online service.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
Because.
Speaker 4 (08:44):
You're saying, Okay, you shouldn't only be watching church online.
But I think the argument that all our churches would
make is you'd rather have online services available to some
almost like an evangelistic opportunity, or that like it's better
to have it and some hear it than to just
(09:05):
not have it at all, I guess would be their argument.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
Yeah, so, I guess I guess my My answer to
that would be that as far as an evangelistic situation,
you could watch that a re recording or a rerun
of that are pre recorded. We'll get my words right,
A pre recorded version of that's fine, But but I
(09:29):
think I would be more concerned with if if it's
if it is online. I wouldn't be against a church.
I certainly would not be against the church having an
online presence live even live, but I think that is
primarily for members of that church who woke up that
(09:50):
morning with the flu, or they can't get out of
bed because they you know, they had knee surgery, And
there could be many other reasons. For instance, we just
had this big eye storm where there were probably thousands
of churches canceled their Sunday gathering because of literally people
couldn't leave the driveways because of the ice. And so
(10:14):
we personally didn't do this at a Mais. But there
are other churches that would have some kind of online
service for that, but that that would be a rare
and very a very rare instance. We'll put it that way,
that the church would do that, and then we need
(10:34):
to separate in this conversation early on, we're not talking
about We're not saying it's bad to watch church online.
We're saying it's it is bad if that's the only church.
Speaker 3 (10:45):
You're to answer your question, Parker, it's a great tool
and resource. I believe it's like it's like if you're
working out. If you're not working out and you take
creatine in wagh protein, it's not going to do anything.
It's not going to build You have to also go
work out.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
You know.
Speaker 3 (11:03):
Online problem online church is like creatine. You can't just
take creating and expect something to happen. You got to
go actually work out, go to church.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
Going to church is working out.
Speaker 1 (11:13):
Yeah, it was better in my head.
Speaker 2 (11:17):
But watching Apple Fitness is your online church, getting up
and going to the gym as church.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
There you go. It's a great tool and resource. Here's
another benefit, like if I if I'm if I'm preaching
at another church, that afternoon of me preaching, I will
go and watch that our online or replay month a
month later, You'd be like, what were we saying in
Hebrews back in or that November? Because I'm reading it
(11:46):
personally in my Bible study now, so I want to
go reference what Marshall was saying in Hebrews. That's great? Yeah,
what a great What a great way to utilize an
online what's my Why am I struggling with the word.
It's not replay an online episode.
Speaker 4 (12:04):
Of church just like a recorded sermon.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
Yeah sermon. Yeah, look at I keep wanting to say
rerun like we're watching old TV shows. So yeah, I'm not.
I wouldn't be against having an online presence and having
you know what you know, I do a lot. It's
like someone's someone's in a town. They go, Hey, I'm
I'm attending so and so church. You think it's a
good church. First, I'm gonna go on there, and i'm
(12:27):
gonna go on there about page. I'm gonna see the staff.
I'm gonna see who their pastors are and how they're
labeling their pastors. And then i'm gonna go to latest
sermons and I'm gonna see if the guy's preaching expositionally.
Is he getting on there and he's doing a sermon
series about money or marriage or suffering. I'm like, this
(12:49):
is this is probably an unhealthy church. But if I
go on there and it says latest sermon, Luke seven,
you know, one to seventeen. Hey, guys, we're picking up
from last week where we left off. And Luke six go, Okay,
this guy's preaching line by line that all start there.
That's a good that's a good indicator on as I'm
(13:12):
looking for churches. And it's all because they have that
online resource.
Speaker 3 (13:15):
Well, you got to kind of expand on that. It
could be another episode. But why exponent expository preaching? Why
is that important over topical which you're comparing it against. Yeah, yeah, quickly,
I mean because we have a lot we have. This
is a ton of stuff you don't have to, but
I thank you.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
But yeah, the I guess the the easiest way to
say it is it's it's a protection for the people
that they are hearing the point of the author of
the Biblical text, and there then they're looking at culture
and their world through the lens of that Biblical text.
(13:54):
Instead of saying, let's pick a cultural worldly topic and
then we're going to go to a thousand Bible verses
looking through the lens of the of the topic at
the Bible verses. The nuance would be there's nothing wrong
with occasionally going to a topical preaching, but that cannot
(14:14):
be the regular diet. Otherwise believers are not built up,
they're not growing at all. What are you gonna say? So,
here's another idea. If you're if you are on, if
you're online only, and I had a friend recently this happened.
(14:35):
I bet you everybody has a story in here. But
a recently a friend reached out and he's asking me
some questions about the Bible. And I'm a little upfront
sometimes and I just said, who's pastoring you? That's like
a thing I ask people because it says a lot,
it ends up saying a lot with how they answer.
(14:56):
In fact, there's a guy that was just talking to
this morning. They lost her, a little baby girl. She
was seventeen months old, and he reaching out to me.
He's like, what do I do? What do I do?
Speaker 2 (15:07):
What I do?
Speaker 1 (15:09):
And I'm a Christian? What do I do? And so
my first before I say anything, I want to say,
who's pastoring you? I just want to know who is
discipling you through this because it can't be me. Don't
put it on me. I can't. I can't be there.
I can give you, you know, bits of advice. And he said, well,
I don't know my pastor. I'm a Hughes said, I'm
(15:32):
part of this church and it was in one of
the Midwest states. I ended up looking it up, but
he said, I don't know the guy. Another story is
a friend of ours, a mutual friend of everybody here.
He reached out and he was asking me some Bible questions.
I said, who's pastoring you? And he said what was
his name? I told you earlier, Judah Judas Smith. Judas Smith.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
Who's my main church is church home in Seattle in
Washington I know he also has another campus in la
He's he's probably the most famous for being justin Bieber's.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
Just so he said that, and I wasn't sure exactly
who that was. I'm not always familiar with the big
pastors like that. But then I looked it up and
I realized he's on He's on one coast and this
pastor he's talking about is on the other coast. I
was like, how could how could your pastor be in
(16:24):
Seattle and you're on the east coast. And I realized
I was naive to what he was saying. But then
I realized, oh, he's a member online, he doesn't attend,
so he says he actually does know that guy Judah
Judah Smith, but he he's one of you, he and
(16:46):
he doesn't actually physically go. And so all we got
to do a podcast about this because it's very dangerous.
And the reason I said earlier that I did, I
didn't mean to shock, to bring some kind of shock
value of if you're if you tend an online church,
are going to hell. But what here's let me say
it more plainly, and and in a farm, if you've
(17:09):
got a flock of sheep on the protection of the
shepherd and some big guard dogs. What do they call
those big white guard dogs sheep dogs? Yeah, those big
white ones. Man, They're just like, yeah, is that what
it is? No, that's a little great Pyrenees there you go.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
I would never guessed that.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
But so you got those sheep in there, great Pyrenees shepherds,
you know, and then you got one sheep way off
on the hill by itself. I would say that sheep
is in great danger of wolves. So that's that's what
I'm saying. They go, yeah, but but my I go,
I go, and I get my feeding. They're looking at
(17:53):
the trot though they know where the fluck is. They're
just watching from a distance.
Speaker 4 (17:56):
On their little iPad.
Speaker 1 (17:59):
So let's talk about a pastor should know you, and
you should know your pastor. I don't know how many
times have I said this on this podcast, this kind
of idea a lot, and people still push back on it.
I didn't put it's impossible you and I did that
reaction video. It's impossible to know all your sheep, is it?
(18:21):
How could a shepherd not know one of his sheep.
How could one of the sheep not know one of
his pastors? And if he doesn't because there's too many sheep.
Then they need more shepherds. One Peter five to one says,
So I exhort the elders among you, as a fellow
elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, shepherd
(18:42):
the flock of God that is among you, exercising oversight,
not under compulsion, but willingly as God would have you.
Hebrews thirteen seven. Obey your leaders and submit to them,
for they are keeping watch over your souls as those
who will have to give an account. I have texted
guys that a thousand times when they push back on
(19:04):
I don't need to know my elder, and I said, well,
your elder needs to know you. Hebrews thirteen seventeen says
that he will give an account. One day. He will
stand before the Lord and judgment and give an account
over you. And if he doesn't know you, that is
a that is a big problem. I have a pastor
friend one time that I heard him say there was
(19:27):
a guy that just kept coming to the church, coming, coming, coming, coming,
but never never more than just coming to the church.
And one day he grabbed him in the four year
and he said, hey, am I going to have to
give an account over you or not. You know, he's
just thinking of the Hebrews thirteen. Are you one that
I will give an account for? Because if you are,
I need to know you. And that's good shepherding.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
Yeah, it's good. Yeah, And I do think a little yes,
I think they tied together. I think they're a little
bit se with the online church in this because I
have some opinions on the other side, and I'm actually
seeing some reflection of myself a lot, because a lot
of times when I I speak with a lot of
(20:14):
excitement and the conviction, and I'm on the other side
experiencing it from you. Right now. You're very adamant, very
you already said it at the beginning. You're very on fire.
And I actually have some good things for online church.
For about a year and a half, my wife and
I served online church, and I'm looking for the I
(20:34):
want to go. I want to set some standards and
that's why I just I don't want to say anything
until now. But like some of the things that you've
already talked about, boxes were checked with online church, and
I think that there's if you haven't experienced it, some
people think is a nightclub. You bounce in, you bounce out,
(20:56):
You do it when it's convenient, and you leave an
elder who oversaw that particular service. I knew more about
the people in my online in this specific service that
we did than previously I knew about in a physical church.
(21:18):
I say previously because I'm in a very healthy church.
Now I knew more about them. I still am close
friends with I say close friends. I know a lot
about some of their lives, several of the people especially
that we served with. But I did experience the side
that most people see of people just bouncing in bouncing out.
(21:40):
They didn't come every week that you know, it wasn't,
but it was for them for a lot of it.
It was everything you experience in a good, healthy, physical church,
just not physically. And so I think there are some
advantages I say advantages. And it was also during a time.
(22:03):
This was the time when people couldn't go to church
at all or didn't daring COVID. Yeah, during COVID, yeah,
I want a lot of stuff was shut down. But
it's also it started off because it was what was
familiar to me, leaving an unhealthy church, moving crazy time
in my life, divorce, all this other stuff, and it
(22:25):
was what I was familiar with. I knew the teaching
was solid, and I knew that the growth. And I
don't mind saying what it was Life Church and who
some people might say as the pioneer of a lot
of online church. But I will tell you that even recently,
as in two three weeks ago, Craig Rochels looked straight
down the lens of the camera and said, if the
(22:46):
only place that you are getting the word is online,
you need to find a physical church to get into.
He didn't say you need to find a physical life
church to get into, you need to find it. He goes, Today,
here we're laying hands on each other and praying for
one another. There's something that happens when you physically touch
another person that you are not going to get to experience.
(23:10):
That is the part that I I it's the community.
I think for me it was the community outside of
the ten to eleven thirty, if that makes sense. The
time we're together is sitting in a pew listening, you know,
worshiping together, listening to the Word, agreeing with your taking
communion all that. Yes, obviously that is what the Bible
(23:33):
calls us to. But it is even more than that.
It's the stuff outside you know of when you leave
that service, of who are you having lunch with and having,
you know, getting involved in other people's lives that I
see as just as important as the church as what
we call lowercase C church is, which we you know,
(23:56):
other than the physical aspect of it. I had in
the online service and the online church group that I
was with, what.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
About ordinances as then two ordinances Lord, Supper and baptism.
Speaker 2 (24:08):
Yeah, those two and we I know, we hadn't discussed
those here yet. Those we we we did we would
take communion together at the online online yeah. Uh and
uh obviously no baptism you just grab grape from your
everybody prepped their own. Yeah, absolutely, yeah, and he did
it together.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
And the reason, my gosh, just help me.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
Farker, No, you go ahead.
Speaker 1 (24:34):
No, No, I've talked about your eyes thoughts. I I would,
I would, I would implore anyone listening to run from
this kind of teaching Grocell type teaching. Actually twenty twenty eight,
(24:57):
pay careful attention to yourself and to all the flock
in which the Holy Spirit has made you. Overseers speaking
to the elders to care for the Church of God,
which he obtained with his own blood, and a pastor
that is not hearing this Acts twenty twenty eight Paul
exhorting the elders. If he's not paying careful attention to
(25:22):
the flock that was obtained by the blood of Christ,
in which the Holy Spirit has made this particular pastor
an overseer, then he is he is grossly disobeying what
his purpose is as a as a pastor. Yeah, and
(25:42):
I can't imagine if Paul knew that one day people
could actually gather and take the Lord's supper. I don't
know what one Corinthians eleven would mean in that aspect
of taking it in an unhealthy manner, But if Paul
possibly knew that people would be scattered, I think he
would be absolutely appalled. I'm so I am so adamant
(26:07):
about this. Let's let's find another argument. And man, you
correctly talked about life as a church member outside of
just the gathering. The Bible is full of verses that
(26:28):
talk about a lot living alongside each other. Can't do
that online. I would say a big argument that people
listening right now are thinking, Okay, Granger, thanks you know,
thanks for you know, pushing my buttons here, but there
(26:49):
is no good church in my town.
Speaker 2 (26:52):
I did see one of those in comments on the
last episode.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
Yeah, I want to try to cover as many of
these type of ideas as you and I don't want to.
I don't want to leave this podcast without Well, we
missed a group. You should either start one or you
should move. If that's the case, Okay, elaborate on on
start one.
Speaker 3 (27:12):
Uh, you would have to help me there, my I mean,
because I wouldn't start one, but I would.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
I would.
Speaker 3 (27:18):
I would have to seriously consider moving because if we're
seeking first the Lord and obeying him and scripture and
putting him above everything else, being in a healthy church
is very top priority.
Speaker 1 (27:31):
Yeah, I agree. I think I think people look and
let me, let me just like tether all of this
real quick to myself. I I've lived most of my
life against what I'm teaching right now, m and I'm
so convicted by it because of how long I lived
(27:53):
outside of a meaningful relationship with a healthy church. Sure
always called myself for Christian I took you guys know,
I just had a Spanish class with my teacher. She's
in Honduras and she's a Christian. She says, she's a
Christian talking about the Bible, you know, through most of
(28:15):
our Spanish teaching. And I sent a pastor to her
in her town, a pastor in another town that I know.
I sent him to her, and she said he came
to our door. She doesn't speak in English, but but
we were talking about today. He came to our door
and tried to get her in church, and she says,
I can't. I go to I attend university on Sunday mornings.
(28:39):
And she told me, she said, Granger, I get God
through his word, so I don't need the gathering. Basically, well,
that's wrong, which is something I've always I always believed
like at some level I might not have set it
that way, but I always existed. I always existed around
the church, knowing a church and occasionally popping into the church,
(29:02):
but mostly I was working and touring, so I didn't
there's no way to have a relationship. So I want
to just say that is if you guys hear me
speaking right now, It's not like I'm some know it
all that's been doing this my whole life. I'm I'm
the passion in me and the pleading, and me comes
from a man who was sick outside of a church
(29:22):
for so long, And it's so obvious in the Bible.
And so to what Tyler said, I think we wouldn't
even consider as Americans moving for this.
Speaker 3 (29:35):
No, but you know what we would do. We would
consider moving for our children to get them into a
school that has a good football team. Oo yeah, baseball
team basketball, because we love our kids and we went
the best for them.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
Or we would move for a job. Yea and a heartbeat.
Speaker 3 (29:49):
We moved for raise got a good job, offer good benefits,
But we would when would you ever move for? Have
you ever in your life heard somebody say I moved
because of a healthy church? And probably you have recently,
very few, but we know in our circle we know
people that have moved across the country for a healthy church.
But but that's the obvious answer. Regardless of job, regardless
(30:13):
of family, being close in a close proximity to a
healthy church. Is that the first priority as a Christian
when considering.
Speaker 1 (30:25):
Where you live.
Speaker 2 (30:26):
Right?
Speaker 1 (30:29):
Yeah, ideally there's over here steaming at me, Parkner. You guys,
you got all these ideas.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
I'm just listening.
Speaker 1 (30:36):
Not much going on in my head, So I would, yes,
I would move. If you're in a town with no
healthy church, I would move long before I would say,
let's be a member of a online church, I think,
which I hope that we've we've already said that that
actually doesn't exist. There is no online church that would
(30:57):
defy the definition of what church is.
Speaker 4 (31:00):
The problem with that, though, is everybody who on earth
is going to hear that and acknowledge that their church
is unhealthy or even know what that means.
Speaker 1 (31:07):
This podcast is called nine to nine for one, so
maybe one, maybe one person, because there's ninety nine right
now that are going at those and never going to
tune in again. This is so stupid. This podcast is
now off my list. These guys are literally telling they're
telling me to move, and I've this town is all
I've ever known, And I would say, maybe there's one person.
Speaker 4 (31:31):
So I know that this podcast is not about this technically,
but maybe you could just give a refresher on what
you This isn't Granger's opinion. We're not here to hear
Granger's opinion. It's what you're seeing, and your job here
is to try to convince us that the Bible can
show us indications of what a church looks like when
it's healthy and then implying this is what actually what
(31:55):
it looks like when it's not healthy. And by healthy,
I heard my old pastor describe it as uh healthy
meaning the members are growing just like a healthy body
grows as it should, so a healthy church member would
be growing in their faith as they should. Do you
want to just give a quick recap of what you
mean by that? What are or maybe you could say
(32:17):
what what are some potential red flags that somebody could
consider some characteristics of their church that they would think
because this just isn't on anybody's radar. There's just church
and then there's not.
Speaker 3 (32:30):
I think the most important if we're if we're just
making this super simple, is does your pastor know your name?
Speaker 4 (32:40):
If you're the person preaching on Sunday mornings doesn't know
your first name, you.
Speaker 1 (32:45):
Can that's a red flag. It's potentially a.
Speaker 4 (32:47):
Red flag of your church, unless you're just sneaking in
and out in or.
Speaker 2 (32:54):
Avoiding him.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
I guess Parker, with this discussion, a lot of times
we can go to Matthew eighteen, not because it's like
the perfect passage, but because It really implies that you
must have a church and you must be in a
relationship with him in a meaningful way. Listen to this.
If your brother sends against you, go tell him his
(33:15):
fault between you and him alone. We'll start there. Can
you do that online?
Speaker 2 (33:25):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (33:25):
Maybe?
Speaker 2 (33:26):
Yeah, Well that's what you know.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
Okay, let's just imagine one person is in Podunt, Nebraska.
There's no healthy church, and so he's attending Judas Smith's
church in Seattle. Okay, he's just by himself and he's
attending that church. So let's walk through Matthew eighteen and
just see how this affects this guy. If your brother
sends against you, go tell him his fault between you
(33:49):
and him alone.
Speaker 4 (33:49):
Maybe there's probably knowing that church. There's probably a Facebook group,
and he's probably say he's a devout follower of that
online church. He's going to join the Facebook group and
say somebody send against him online, he could DM them.
Speaker 3 (34:06):
Why can't this be his buddy down the street though?
Why does this have to have anything to do with church?
From Matthew eighteen. Yeah, good question, we'll get there. It's
in this passage.
Speaker 1 (34:20):
If he listens to you, you've gained your brother. And
Jesus is talking here, and Jesus is implying we're talking
about believers and not you're not a random neighbor, because
he does talk plenty about your neighbor. He does in
this context for sixteen. But if he does not listen,
(34:43):
take one or two others among you that every charge
may be established with evidence of two or three witnesses.
If he refuses to listen, tell it to the church.
If he refuses to listen, even to the church, let
him be as to you as a gentile or a
(35:04):
tax collector. This is the essence of church discipline.
Speaker 3 (35:10):
So and did you have accountability? Okay, So ant could
take that with other believers. We get together, you go
to the person that's sending, and if he still doesn't comply,
he could take it to the whoever at the church
for discipline, right yep.
Speaker 1 (35:26):
So so everybody in the online church would then suddenly
be involved in this this dispute.
Speaker 2 (35:34):
How many people depends on like that service. I'm just
I mean everybody has a different experience. There's people, right,
I don't think any one unless I has experienced an
online church like I have in this room. So you
may have experienced an online church in a in a
very casual I checked the box when to church on Sunday. Way, okay,
(35:58):
and those I think definitely are I will say, I'll
adamantly say you're at risk. You are at risk. You're
not being held accountable, you're not being fed. No one
knows who you are, no one you're you are living
in isolation. If you experienced the way that I did. Yes,
there I would say probably one hundred and fifty total
(36:22):
people that would be on in that's that particular service,
somewhere between seventy five to one hundred people. One hundred
and fifty people, one hundred and fifty people.
Speaker 1 (36:29):
And those people were covet in it together every single
they lived life together.
Speaker 2 (36:34):
The majority of the time. And fifty Yes, but and
that's where I and that's the part yes. To answer
this particular question, yes, those.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
People that yes, Okay, did you ever see church discipline happen?
Speaker 2 (36:47):
Did I particularly see it?
Speaker 5 (36:48):
No?
Speaker 2 (36:49):
I had heard about it after the fact. It would
be with I think there was one instance with a volunteer,
if I remember correctly, there's something we didn't know all
the details, but there was some discipline of something particular
I can't tell you. It's been a while. Now here.
Speaker 1 (37:09):
Here's another question, how how did you become a member
of this online community?
Speaker 2 (37:18):
Went through like you could just go in and start going.
It was there was no barrier, just like walking in
the front door of the church.
Speaker 1 (37:27):
And you would one of these one and fifty if
you do that. Yeah, so you're you're risking unbelievers being
in this group.
Speaker 2 (37:36):
Sure, yeah, so you would.
Speaker 1 (37:39):
You'd be taking church discipline, for instance, in this Matthew
eighteen context, to potential unbelievers.
Speaker 2 (37:47):
Yeah. And I think the argument in that is that
you could have unbelievers walking in the front door of
a church too.
Speaker 1 (37:53):
Unbelievers do not have a say in.
Speaker 2 (37:54):
Our No, no, no, I didn't say that. I said going
to a physical church. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:59):
No. But but going to a physical church is not
a meaningful membership in the church, which is just this discussion.
Just like watching a church service online is not bad,
walking into an unhealthy church and sitting through the whole
service not bad. But we're talking about meaningful covenantal relationship
(38:20):
with the church. Sure, and everything based on membership that
like it all, I should say this way, It all
begins with are you a Christian, right, we want to
know and if you're not, you can't. It would be
it would we would be putting our whole church at
risk by bringing in non believers into membership. Yeah, once again,
(38:44):
not talking about attendants.
Speaker 2 (38:46):
That may have worre We got off then because I
was just talking about attendants. It was about one hundred
and fifty attendants. How many members, I don't know, right,
those were exactly members.
Speaker 1 (38:57):
Leaders would be brought up through the church. Yeah, So
the church is rebuked in the Bible for allowing false
teaching by Jesus in the Book of Revelation. So you
would rebuke potentially online viewers for their bad doctrine that
(39:24):
they're enduring when they might not even be Christians. You see,
you see the inconsistent the problem with this, It becomes
a huge It has eternal implications. You're talking about raising
up leaders through unbelievers, that there's ambiguity in who they are.
You're talking about I being casual with Lord's Supper. You're
(39:47):
you're The Lord's Supper is a tangible, visible reminder, a
remembrance of the Gospel through the bread and the wine,
and do this together in remembrance of me and you're
not doing it with anyone. So there's there's these there's
like eternal poisons with with this online church. Do you
(40:13):
guys said man, I feel like I'm talking too much
and I'm we're are we in this doll? Do you
hear me on this? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (40:23):
So I think one thing we need to touch on
is what about people with disabilities?
Speaker 1 (40:31):
Great, great point. Yeah, so we're we are not talking
about people that want that watch online with a disability
and they're part they're still members of a church. Because
if you're still members of a local church, then you
have members and church leaders visiting you.
Speaker 3 (40:54):
Okay, that's great, but what about after Like what if
you be disabled, you hear about Jesus, you want to
start searching for churches, you find one online, you can't
leave the house. You don't have same body of believers
and members that can come.
Speaker 1 (41:12):
Same thing. But you can't leave the house same thing.
And that's a great point, a great question. It would
be the same thing if you're in po Dunk, Iowa
and you are, say your wheelchair bound, and someone preaches
the Gospel to you in your care facility and you
believe and you're reading the Bible and you go I
(41:33):
want to be part of a church. Then you would
find one still in that area call them. I mean,
can you imagine for me if this happened to me.
It gives me chillos just thinking about it. If someone
called me and said, Pastor Granger, I've been in a
(41:53):
care facility, I'm disabled. I heard the gospel. I believe.
I want you to be my pastor. I want to
be part. I want to be a member of a
maas church. We would mount up and meet that person there.
Speaker 3 (42:06):
Yeah, that's just such a good point on just the
importance of a church and it's members. Like I think
about our grandma, you know, the the later stages of
her life. I think about many people that come to mind. Well,
my first question is what church are you part of?
(42:27):
What members can come help? Can you imagine if you're
the later stages of your life, an old widow and
you just don't have anybody, You're just in your house, disabled,
can't leave. To Granger's point, it's like that's what members
are for. Like you said, like mount up, we got
you had our meals, will come every day, We'll bring
(42:48):
you to church. If you can't come to church, we'll
come worship with you.
Speaker 1 (42:52):
We had a member had a baby this morning, and
Parker's one of our deacons of member needs and his
wife and I I was like, hey, and a baby born,
could we start a meal train? And they will start
that mill trains, you know, members taking meals to that
family with that newborn baby. There's as you know, party,
(43:14):
there's like a meal train all the time because of
surgery or a new baby, or a loss of a
loved one, or there's like people, it's not just a
Sunday thing. People are constantly in each other's lives and
coming over and bringing food and visiting and and we're willing,
you know, going to weddings and sometimes funerals together, living
(43:37):
life together. You know, President are sitting here. We were
talking just last night. We talked for like an hour
about about when you're part of a local church, a
healthy local church, you no longer have to make decisions anymore,
or no, you no longer have to have like decision
fatigue and decision after you could say, hey, man, I
(43:57):
got Tyler, I got this thing going on. What should
I do? And I'm I've been praying about it, and
Tyler goes do this Parker Tyler said this. I've been
thinking this park goes do this, and you go, okay,
all right, Lord, and then you say, can you guys
go with me? Can you talk to this guy with me? Hey?
Can you You know we're in it. We're in it together.
(44:18):
That's that's what it means. Preston. I talked about this
last night. When Jesus says, come to me, all you
are wearing burden, and I'll give you rest or in
all the verses that says the Lord is near to
the broken hearted, What does that mean physically? What is
near to the broken hearted mean? Physically? Of course, he's
near us, He's in our hearts as the Holy Spirit,
(44:38):
you know, the Holy Spirit dwells in us. But but
more than that, what does it mean to be near us?
He uses as people and they come around us and
they love you, and they bring you a meal, and
they give you a hug, and they take you to coffee,
and they they they they're they're there with you, living
life with you. That's always what it's intended to be.
(45:00):
Taking that away and making it a cold online presence
is stripping the church. God's grace of the church with
all of its beauty, you're stripping it away, and you're
leaving the Christian with a skeleton version of preaching and singing,
and it's a it's a distant, cold reality that doesn't
(45:21):
warm your heart, and it eventually will kill you. I'm
convinced of this, pretty passionate about it. I'm so passionate
about this topic, and I kind of wish you guys
would talk more because I'm feeling like I'm talking too much.
Speaker 3 (45:37):
I think it's it's kind of interesting too that Jesus
came in the flesh, like he he prioritized enough to
enter the world literally physically, to be with us, to disciplists,
to teach us, to show us. You know, it's not
(45:59):
really I was just a thought that came to my
mind about how important that being together is. The King
of kings literally came to sit with us better speaking
from online through the clouds.
Speaker 1 (46:16):
You know, as a not human. I think that's an
incredible way to think about it. Christ came the incarnation
mean God, dwelt among us in the flesh and broke
bread with us.
Speaker 2 (46:30):
A God.
Speaker 1 (46:32):
Ate with us, and drank with us, and cried with us,
and slept in tents and walked through dirt and suffered
the loss of great friends and ultimately died on a
cross and the worst form of execution with his people
(46:54):
for his people, to be a substitute for his people,
to forgive his people all because he loved as people. Yeah,
so that his people would know him and love each
other and tend to each other, and so that there
could be leaders that tend to the flock, and there
(47:14):
could be that there could be sheep that that raise
up to become leaders from within the flock and then
go off and start new flocks. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (47:23):
So you take that, and then you compare that against
online and Jesus's love and everything that you just said
for us, for his people, And then you think about
the isolation and how much the devil would love for
you to stay in your pajamas in your home with
(47:47):
nobody there but you and a screen. You know, it's
something to think about.
Speaker 1 (47:53):
Another thing is what would what does it communicate to
your kids, like parents out there, what is it communicating
to your kids when you're deprioritizing a physical gathering. I
promise you those kids will not respect going to a
physical church later in their life if they grew up
(48:13):
seeing mom and dad watch it online. Why would they
ever go into a real building when they could sleep
in and eat a donut and wear their pajamas.
Speaker 2 (48:21):
Never be I think even more, Never be challenged, never
be questioned, Never have any kind of listen grangeer. If
you text me and said, hey, I missed you today,
how come you didn't come over for the podcast? Yeah,
I'm sorry. I got busy. But I saw you and
(48:42):
you looked at me, and you go where were you?
That's way different. We're staring at each other now and
you just want to know, Yeah, there's some accountability between
two physical people that is not there with this or
(49:05):
a computer screen or anything else. And as much as
I've told you my good I had a great experience
with online church for what you can have a great
experience online church with sure, And I will tell you
oft you said to you want other people to talk.
I I pushed back on things, but I will tell
(49:27):
you it is not the answer. Online church is not
the answer you. If you can't be what you just said,
we can't be involved in each other's lives in a
physical way. If all it is is digital, there's a barrier.
(49:49):
It's a bear. There's a barrier it's you know, more
than more than clothes.
Speaker 1 (49:55):
Almost, like we talked about last week.
Speaker 2 (49:58):
Yeah, it's a lot of that, and it all kind
of and it's funny that that one comment that I
read was that it said AI church, which evidently you
know that is what it can and could become. What
are you? How are you involved in each other's lives
every day of the week, seven days a week, not
one day, not for thirty minutes or forty five minutes.
(50:21):
How you know? Who are you doing life with? And
I will tell you, Oh, go ahead, go ahead, I'll
tell you that that right there was what we were like,
we're having a good experience, but we're missing something. Wow,
we're having a great experience and we're investing in others'
lives and we're praying with people and we're seeing God
change people, but we're missing something. And He's like, not
(50:46):
in my church.
Speaker 1 (50:47):
And dude, and I'm sorry, I didn't know this conversation
was going this way before we started recording. And I
didn't know that you were going to have this. Here's
history with online church?
Speaker 2 (50:57):
Yeah, and I didn't tell you until we sit down.
I actually had a long history with them.
Speaker 1 (51:01):
So like you kind of see my shock in this
was real time. Well good, But I want to tell
you also, first of all, I love you. And what
the local church also does is it it gives you
assurance of the faith. Yes, because we could deceive ourselves
(51:24):
and we could start to say things like I don't
know I read the Bible and I don't even know
if I'm actually a Christian. Yep, I still sin so
have these thoughts. Who's to say I'm not just deceiving myself.
Speaker 3 (51:36):
I'm not.
Speaker 1 (51:37):
I'm not even a believer or the flip side of that. Yeah,
I'm a believer. Of course, I'm a believer. I've always
been a believer. Nothing gonna stop me from thinking I'm
a believer. What the church does is they affirm that
belief that you make the profession, and the church affirms
the profession because they walk with you. So your people
(52:01):
at first Baptist Slado Anthony, is he a Christian? Yeah?
How do you know? I've seen him day in and
day out. I've seen hi. I'm seeing him, pray. I've
seen him coming in here with his wife and his daughter.
I've seen him through good times and bad times. I've
seen him. I've seen him come through and this and that,
and I've seen him. I've seen him steadfast with the Lord.
(52:23):
It's not that he's perfect, but i've seen him. I've
seen his walk. That man is a believer. And then
how about you, Sally, I could affirm ant man's a
bel how about you, Tom, I'm with him too. We
could all affirm Anthony's. So even when you're saying I
don't know if I'm a Christian, there's all these people
come around and you go, you are brother, stand firm,
you're with us?
Speaker 2 (52:43):
A church does that, agreed?
Speaker 1 (52:49):
Man? Don't we need that?
Speaker 2 (52:51):
Everyone does? And it's not some people, and it's not
a few of us or the majority of us. Every
single believer needs that. Yeah, every single one. Yeah. The
ninety nine and the one are just numbers that Jesus
used in the parables. It's every single it's not one hundred,
(53:13):
it's every single one.
Speaker 3 (53:15):
You online, you could ask that question and then you
could give a little thumbs emoji.
Speaker 1 (53:19):
Do we affirm? And everybody does it?
Speaker 2 (53:22):
So you have done it.
Speaker 1 (53:25):
But I could imagine what it's like. Ephesians four fifteen says,
rather speaking the truth and love, we are to grow
up in every way into Him who is the head
into Christ, from whom the whole body joined and held
together by every joint with which it is equipped. When
(53:47):
each part is working properly, making the body grow so
that it builds itself up in love. So when each member,
each part of the body is working properly, the body
grows and is built up in itself. That growth happens together.
We grow together.
Speaker 3 (54:09):
So for the people listening like that don't know where
to find a healthy church, what is a resource that
we can give them? That's this little book? Why should
I join a church? I mean they live in Podunk, Nebraska.
Speaker 1 (54:32):
Seem to giving this away. Maybe we should do this, Okay,
so specifically to Podunk Nebraska.
Speaker 3 (54:39):
There an hour outside of Lincoln, middle of nowhere.
Speaker 1 (54:43):
If you're in if you're in America, you're already in
good shape. Which is literally the reason we have missions,
because there are unreached people that don't even You know what,
when we think about missions, we think about global outreach,
and our are absolute mandate to do that as believers,
(55:03):
to carry out the Great commission, along with other believers
from every decade before us, to take the Gospel to
all nations, to teach with discipleship others to obey Christ.
When we say that and we think about unreached people,
we're not talking about the neighbor down the road who's
never heard the gospel because he has access to it.
(55:27):
Mike down here, who he doesn't have a God at all,
he's just an atheist, and we go, he's never even
heard the gospel. That's Mike's not considered unreached because he's
around the Bible belt. He has, you know, he drives
to work every day and sees fifteen churches. But we're
talking about unreached people who literally will will be born,
(55:49):
will they will, they will be born, and they will
die and never hear about Christ, not because they don't
want to, because it's literally not accessible. So we take
it when we when we think about reaching the nations,
we're thinking in that way. But when we're talking about
Potunt Nebraska, there is most likely in Podunk Nebraska a
(56:10):
church that might not check every box, but it's a
it's got a pastor who fears the Lord, loves Jesus,
and and he will be sufficient for sitting under and
loving your neighbor within that.
Speaker 2 (56:27):
Local body.
Speaker 1 (56:30):
Better than church home in Seattle online. But pattro I
would highly encourage that brother or sister to consider moving
to another town with it what they know is a
healthy church.
Speaker 3 (56:51):
Yeah, that the town where we grew up, or at
least Parker did. Population two twenty seven. I looked it
up the other day. Is talking about hometowns, and there's
two churches that I know of and in a town
with a population of two hundred people. So yeah, that's
a good place to start.
Speaker 1 (57:12):
And then and then I've heard of people driving because
some people drive an hour, live in Podunk, whatever, drive
an hour to to Lincoln or to Omaha to uh
a good church. So there's there's three options. I would
say my my biggest encouragement would be move. It's it's
(57:35):
that important to leave your job and get a new job.
It's that important to move your kids out of the school.
It's that important to move. Second option to be drive
an hour, drive an hour. It's hard to do that
because you're now you're you're needing to spend the entire
Sunday and sometimes Wednesdays. You wouldn't think twice if it's
(57:56):
your job to drive into town for an hour for
that commute. People do that all the time. And then
the third option, take your kids to practice. Yeah, but
you hesitate when it's you take your kids to a
to a travel ball tournament three hours away, no problem
on a Sunday. And then the third option, there's there's
(58:16):
some church in that town where some some pastor loves
the Lord and you might not check every box, but
he loves the Lord and you could serve your people.
Well there, that's that's option number three. All of those
prevent death over online church Parker nothing. Don Marker knows
(58:40):
a lot about this topic.
Speaker 5 (58:42):
He knows a lot. And he is being very quiet,
and her dad's some caffeine. Back into mind my life.
We're going to do a book giveaway.
Speaker 2 (58:54):
Yeah, you're gonna give that one away.
Speaker 1 (58:55):
I was thinking about it.
Speaker 2 (58:56):
I had this one you had somebody there.
Speaker 1 (58:58):
Oh, I love that book. One begin to read that.
Have you read that book?
Speaker 2 (59:01):
Which one? Is it?
Speaker 1 (59:02):
Narrow Gate?
Speaker 2 (59:03):
Narrow Way?
Speaker 1 (59:03):
No? I have two of them. They're they're little bitty books.
And and then as I started to kind of think
it through ideas, I was like, maybe I should do
this book. Why should I join a church? It has
it super It's like forty pages. But he gives. He gives,
like I think there's seven reasons. Join a church to
(59:24):
display the gospel. The gospel. The church is the gathered people.
That's the church. The gospel is displayed through the gathered
people loving each other from all different all different backgrounds,
coming together united in Christ and loving each other. That
is a strange thing to the world. Number two, Join
(59:47):
a church because the Bible requires it. We talked a
little bit about that. Number three, Join a church to
love other Christians and edify the church. If our commandment
is love your neighbor, love others, how could you do that?
(01:00:08):
And you can't do that in isolation. You can't do
that in isolation. Number what am I for? Join a
church to evangelize the world. The church then sends out
and goes. It gathers to scatter, goes into the neighborhoods
to evangelize, goes into the nations as the church. Number five.
Join a church to assure yourself. We talked about that
(01:00:29):
assurance comes from the church. Number six. Join a church
to expose false gospels. The church decides if there's false teaching,
and we know this because Jesus rebukes the church. You
allowed this false teaching you allowed. This is funny. There's
plenty of rebuking the false teachers, but it's funny that
(01:00:50):
he goes after the church. You allowed this. So this
is on you. This blood's on your hands. Oh man, yeah, yeah, okay.
So the church, the collective God that gathered church rejects
false Gospel number seven. Of course we should guess join
a church to glorify God. If you're a Christian, you
(01:01:15):
should join a church for the glory of God. Peter
wrote to some early Christians live such good lives among
the pagans that they accuse you of doing wrong. They
may see your good deeds and glorify God on the
day that he visits us one Peter, two twelve. That's amazing.
Speaker 2 (01:01:34):
What's it called?
Speaker 1 (01:01:36):
Why should I Join a Church? A little pamphlet about
forty pages long.
Speaker 2 (01:01:40):
All right, so comment join a church? Join a church,
And for the people asking about how are they notified?
You'll have a comment on your comment from Caden that
will be asking you for some details. So that's how
you'll know it's you. If it's you, you will have
a comment on you your comment. Uh, so you can
(01:02:02):
write anything else you want to make sure you're right,
join a church if you would like to get that book.
Speaker 1 (01:02:08):
We have some guests here as we always do. Plus, Kayden,
did we miss anything in this conversation? Did you guys
have something occurred to you as we're talking. You're like,
you didn't bring that up? That they should where they
have small Yeah, we should do another episode on small groups.
(01:02:34):
I'm actually against you might say what he said because yeah, sorry,
you're right. He said, what if your what if your
church is so big that your pastors can't know you
because it's so big, but they have small groups? Which
is which is such an American argument, so many churches,
And it's a good question, Caleb, but I would actually
argue that small groups actually hinder the fellowship of the
gathering because it for men in many ways, one being
(01:02:57):
it creates clicks, and it actually harms the church from
being able to come together as a church. Instead, they're
coming together in groups that never see each other and
never have fellowship and usually stay for long periods of
time and are hard to get into and hard to
(01:03:18):
get out of. And so big churches constantly push this idea, Well,
we have a big church in our pastor may not
know you but that's why we have small groups, and
so we just get But now the teachings divided, the
people are segregated. They're usually clicking together because of they
like each other and they have stuff in common, and
all of that is actually hindering fellowship of the body
(01:03:42):
itself because Jesus talks about the body coming together with
all its different members and building each other up because
of all the differences in the members. But then you're
clicking out in these small groups that are similar to
each other, and nobody's beenefitting and it ends up just
being a buddy group that you just sit there and
(01:04:03):
talk about, Hey, who else has got something going on
wrong in their life right now? And how could we
give a word of encouragement? And that's just not church,
not Smarker.
Speaker 4 (01:04:12):
Yeah, I don't know if you how much you want
to go into small groups, but the other issues a
lot of times they you just end up in a
group of people who are in a similar life stage
as you, or you'd probably be friends with anyway, even
if Jesus didn't rise from the dead.
Speaker 1 (01:04:26):
And like, one of the things that's so cool.
Speaker 4 (01:04:28):
About about a gospel witness of a church is when
you have people like I'm convicted about this right now
because I do meet with guys in my similar life
stage weekly, and I need to like constantly be challenged
to reach out to people who are not in my
same life stage, because that's what makes the church so
awesome is when you have somebody that's you know, you
(01:04:52):
have the sixty five year old black guy with the
twenty five year old white guy and that are in
completely different life stages, but get together because they both
love Jesus and they can like live that out in
a way that the world is like. And what world
would you two be getting lunched together on a Tuesday.
Speaker 1 (01:05:14):
This beautiful man. Amen. Yeah, that's that's such a gospel
witness when you which is once again why I'm against
cowboy churches. That's why I'm against biker churches. I'm not
saying this every podcast. I'm against any kind of clique
churches that calls out specific kinds or groups or or
ethnicities of people. And when you call a group out
(01:05:36):
like that, it's not a church that, as you have
decided now because because of you're you agree politically or
you agree even work wise. Now, I'm not saying you
whenever I make this argument. I got to say too,
it's not like you go to Kenya and you go
look at this churches. Everyone looks very Kenyon. Well, of course,
(01:05:58):
because you're going to be influenced by your geography obviously,
but I think as so much as your community allows,
your church should look like a ragtag group of people
that Christ called out of the world and to each other.
And that's different age groups and different different economic statuses,
(01:06:19):
and many times even looking very different small groups always
hinder that they end up dividing people that were kind
of like Parker said, same age group, kind of same
life stage.
Speaker 4 (01:06:31):
And God's just so specific about the shepherd's role, not
the small group's role. Like there is like interpersonal co
accountability that happens through the church, that can happen through
meeting regularly for coffee during the week and stuff, but
that doesn't replace God's means of the shepherding of the flock,
(01:06:53):
which is for the pastors.
Speaker 1 (01:06:56):
You think about Jesus when he called his group of
disciples it's original group. He called a zelot, a Jewish
zelot that was like, you know, the hardcore keeper of
the religion. And then he calls a tax collector, and
he says, you guys, work it out your mind. Now
(01:07:17):
I'm calling you guys both. Can you imagine the conversations
between a Zelot and a tax collector, tax collector being
a jew that was working with the Roman government right
to tax the Jewish people, and the Zelots like, we
need a breakaway, we need a revolt from the Roman empire.
And you got this trader that's working with him. And
Jesus says, you and you together, let's go, ready to walk.
(01:07:44):
Those two guys would never have picked each other.
Speaker 2 (01:07:45):
Yeah, oh yeah, and more times than I did, did
everything they could just stay away from that other.
Speaker 1 (01:07:53):
Absolutely. Okay, where are we at it?
Speaker 2 (01:07:56):
Like it's it, We're good. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:08:00):
The gospel, which which I said earlier, is that Christ
Christ is in our place. He died of the cross
so that anyone who looks to him, anyone that looks
to him, would be saved and be forgiven of their sins,
would be what would not be seen as condemned in
front of a holy God because of their sin. Amen, hallelujah.
Christ did that to all who looked at him, all
(01:08:22):
different people and tongues and economic situations in life stages,
all who look to him will be saved. That's the gospel.
And when those people believe and they look to Christ
as their savior, they always it's like a it's like
a knee jerk reflex. They want to find other people
(01:08:43):
who see Christ the same way, and they end up
in the church. You don't have to tell Christians to
find a church. They will find it eventually. They want
to start looking, and so sometimes we do this podcast.
The whole idea is we say things just so that
one person out there goes he's saying what I knew
(01:09:04):
to be true in my heart already. You know, I'm
not telling you a new idea that the Holy Spirit
has not already witnessed within you. You're hearing it and
you go, that's what I thought was right, and I
just couldn't articulate it. Honey. Let's find the church. That's
all we got. Let's seey'll next time, ye
Host
Granger Smith
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