July 23, 2026 • 72 mins
In Part 2, former Detective Sergeant Chaz Balogh shares publicly how he survived childhood sexual abuse and carried that secret for more than 40 years, even while investigating crimes against children. Chaz and Alicia discuss the silence and stigma faced by male survivors, why viewing child sexual abuse material is never a victimless crime, and the devastating mental-health toll this work can take on investigators. They also reflect on the victims Chaz continues to support, the healing power of speaking out, and how his K-9 partner Spike helped save his life.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hello, and thank you so much for joining the Alicia
Cozac podcast. This is part two of my conversation with
my friend, former detective Sergeant Chas Ballock. In part one,
we talked about how Chaz got here is child a
dream of being a hero and becoming a cop, and
we ended on that really powerful story about how his
EESDK nine Spike helped a little girl find her voice.
And in part two, we go a lot deeper. Chaz
(00:25):
shares his own story as a survivor and talks about
his journey of saying it out loud for the first time,
which led to someone very close to him revealing that
he was also a victim. We talk about how a
vendors exploit trust, how they keep kids and even entire
families silent, and why it can take years to be
able to say this happened to me. We also dig
into one of the biggest questions in the space. Is
it ever a victimless crime to just look at child's
(00:48):
sexual abuse material? Chaz and I talk about what those
images really are, the ongoing harm to children in them,
and as someone who not only works in this space
but was also filmed and exploited, I have a lot
to say about this. Also get into the power of
finally sharing your voice, the stigma and in silence that
so many men carry around abuse and why breaking that
silence matters, and then changing the vibe a bit. We
(01:09):
also get into some lighter, really funny spike stories and
an honest conversation about mental health, burnout and knowing when
you have to step away from this work to take
care of yourself. As always, this conversation centers around real
victims and the real people who are doing this work.
So please take care of yourself while you listen. And
if this conversation is meaningful and helpful, please take a
second to like all Out and subscribe on our YouTube
(01:32):
and follow us across social media on at Alicia Kosackpod.
All right, let's get back into it. This work is
it seems so overwhelming that I don't know if we will.
I mean, I don't think it's possible to ever eradicate
all of this. We're never going to stop see sam
or child abuse. We can hopefully keep up with it
(01:56):
and move along with technology as it does, and say
these kids and catch these perpetrators. But for that little girl,
her her whole world was saved and you have saved
so many worlds. And I love that Spike brings this
this light and this joy. And I'm thinking about him
(02:20):
as a bowl in a china shop, like his big tail,
knocking everything over and just being really silly. Do you
have also any funny stories about Spike? Has he You've
taken this little fluffy creature into hell with you?
Speaker 2 (02:37):
Yeah, let's talk about this because I need a little
humor in my life right now. You know, uh, you
know when we talked about Spike, I mean, I tell
you how much I love him, and I tell I
want his legacy to forever live. You know, it's one
of the reasons why we wrote a children's book, you know,
(03:00):
Detective Spike, which is the coolest book in the world,
the coolest book.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
I remember when he sent me to like read over
and I was like, this is perfect.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
And but yeah, you know, I can tell you. I
remember we were out of search warrant and we were
in a rather cluttered bedroom and Spike just got done
clearing the bed area and there was a large amount
of clothing on the on the side right near a nightstand.
(03:35):
And so as Spike is going through this clothing, I
could tell clearly some kind of indication that something is here.
He's digging down into these clothes and I'm telling everyone,
I'm like, oh, there's something here and about you know.
Thirty seconds later, Spike has a he pulled out a
(04:00):
toy and uh in his mouth, and I'm thinking.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
Getting not with his hands, he doesn't have hands.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
Not with his hands, and I'm like, oh, my goodness, no,
this is not no, absolutely, and so of course it was.
Everyone laughed. He says, I'm thinking to myself, what are
you doing? What? This is not a dog's toy. This
is not a dog toy. And so yes, that's probably
(04:29):
one of the funnier things that Spike has come across
that caught me off guards.
Speaker 3 (04:36):
Let me you get a teeth brush?
Speaker 1 (04:37):
Did he give a teeth brush?
Speaker 2 (04:39):
One? Not only teeth brush? I have just you know,
we carry little medical bags. You always carry stuff. Goff forbid,
something should happen to your dog. You're ready to go.
But it's a little peanut butter spray. It's like exactly
peanut butter minty spray. It's a little green, delicious. It
is delicious for him. Right, I tried it. I was worried, well,
(05:03):
I mean, you do get some after it's not funny
if you don't want to do that outside. But yes,
so I was springing this mouth and but yes, I
was a little worried for a little bit there, but
you know, it is what it is. He went to work,
he's you know, and people, why did he find that? Well,
(05:26):
I tell people, these these devices anymore are us be charged,
and so they are being plugged in with a USB
device to be charged. So I'm going to leave it
at that.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
So he was able to find it because of that,
did you just okay, you you gave him a nice
little scrub down. You just put that back. And whoever's
it was like just later on, they don't know what
happened and that.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
Yeah, that's that's for them to find out, what you know.
Yeah on right, yeah, right, rather interesting, I gotta tell
you. You know, but hey, that's just part of the humor
of the job, right, I mean, you know, and that
that comes with this job, right in light of seeing
(06:21):
bad things and dealing with bad things. You know, that
kind of humor happens. And you know, it's just like
anything else in any other profession. We all have to
exhibit some kind of laughter. In certain situations. So there's
(06:41):
dark humor in this job. We all know it. And
I can tell you there's been a lot of good stories,
and I think one that I'd like to share with you,
and I hope it's not too much for your audience,
but oh.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
No, I want to go there. I we don't have
to censor anything. It's one thing I really like about
this podcast. Also, I love the dark humor. It is
a big reason why I wanted to create this podcast
because I sit down and I hear these stories and
I'm like, oh, I want to share this, but what
am I going to do? Share it over brunch with
my girlfriends? Like that's shared at the Thanksgiving dinner table.
Speaker 3 (07:13):
You can't do that. So where can I share these here?
Speaker 1 (07:16):
And they are the most ridiculous stories. And that dark
humor has always really helped me after I was rescued.
My mom called it whistling through the graveyard, and it
really it gave me this different perspective on everything, and
it allows you to escape what is happening, because no
matter how dark and awful it is, being so lost
(07:41):
in it, being hurt by it, you're not going to
be able to do what you also need to do.
And also these situations that you get in are just
utterly also ridiculous without any of the other things. So
I do want to hear some of these stories and
just go for it. Use all the language you want
to use.
Speaker 3 (08:00):
We can beep things, we can do whatever.
Speaker 1 (08:03):
We can. Just put a bunch of beeps and we
can let people wonder. Be fun. Go ahead, all right.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
So I specifically remember a time when we were executing
a search for We were assisting a neighboring county and
it's a very it's kind of like an apartment building
kind of where apartments appear to be very small but
a little longer. And so we're making an announcement that
(08:30):
we're entering the house. No one's answering the door, so
the doors forced opened, and as we're going through the apartment,
very small apartment, you know, you're hitting the kitchen and
like a little, very small little bedroom, and then you
get to like the rear, which is like it was
like a living room kind of. I guess, per se,
(08:51):
you want to sing. So we got through that door,
we noticed there was a look a female and there
was this couch and she was kneeling in front of
the couch and we're like, yeah, police, Like as we're
going through young police search whire, you know, if you're here,
make yourself known, all that kind of stuff. And this
person's not moving like at all, and we're gearing, I
(09:14):
mean we're and it's a small it's a small it's
a small room. We're like, what is going on? So
as we approach, we realized that this and and it's female,
had long hair. And as we approached this item, we
(09:35):
realized it was a human flesh doll. I've never ever, ever,
in all my time, I've come across a lot of
crazy things, and doing this job, I've never ever come
across a human size left doll. And this doll was
(09:56):
had a wing on, it had like a kind of
lingerie top on, and then it had underwear. And now
what was odd about this whole thing was that this
fresh ball, although it appeared to have very large breasts,
it had all the anatomy as a human and it's
(10:20):
a female, and but it was odd to me that
the underwear didn't match the kind of launch right top,
and the underwear actually were like a children a female
children's underwear again, Yeah, a little girl underwear and it
(10:43):
sort of took us back. And so when we looked
closely and actually rolled this doll over in the front
near the crotch area, was the word and the letters
and the numbers ten. Why oh and my terminology right,
(11:10):
a ten year old. For the listeners who don't understand
the world that we live in, that's a lot of
you know, the video descriptions or the image descriptions is
with the number in the age of that that poor
child victim.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
You know.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
So we went from a funny moment in that dark
humor real fast, but then it went right to reality,
like why we're there, right? I mean, we almost didn't
really get to enjoy the moment, Like I look back
and you think about it, and you know, to realize
that this sick individual literally has this economy human size
(11:51):
flus ball and with little girls underwear that is signifying
that it's a ten year old, you know. And then
we of course found other pairs of underwear that had
very similar markings different agents. Yes, and jess as John,
(12:11):
I couldn't tell you specifically, but I know the ten
year old was on the that doll at that time,
the ten yo and you know, there was a book
that was found that was very commonly used by individual
who sexually abused and sexually exploited children. So it's it's
(12:32):
sort of like, as much as we were that dark
humor was there, it just it sort of hit us
real fast, so very short, Yeah, it was. It sort
of was because we were like, but what was crazy?
Even more so that behind the couch if you could
have visioned this now, so she was on her knees
facing the couch, and behind the couch was a window
(12:56):
and he actually the perpetrator had a go pro set
because the mounts were on the window they seeing him.
Uh you know, so God only knows what's going on.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
There, right, using the stall of some sort.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
Right exactly, and then using a go pro camera to
record whatever was happening.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
Did you find the videos? Ye?
Speaker 2 (13:21):
I cannot remember if they found the those videos. I'd
be speaking on her if I told you they did,
of course, And I don't want to put out something
that I'm not one.
Speaker 3 (13:30):
Of course, I do want to ask to it.
Speaker 1 (13:35):
I'm frustrated because it sounded like a really funny story first.
So I'm imagining I picture this as like you walk
into a home and it's dark, and you can't really
see what's going on, and you are saying all your
little cop freezes to get this person to do what
they need to do. And I imagine you walking up
to it and it like falling over, and for a
moment you're like, oh no, It's like there had to
(13:56):
be this like moment of realization of what it was
that had to be really funny. And then you look
down and you see that. Oh and then and then
find more of the panties were do you know, if
you can remember or if you know or can share,
were they from? Do you know if they're from real children?
(14:17):
Or was he buying underwear and just writing ages on it.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
I don't know, because it was we were just assisting
the local agency. But right, if memory served it correctly,
I believe that you know, obviously they were not clean,
Oh no underwear, whether you know it was ejaculation from him,
like you know what I'm saying, so right exactly? So
(14:46):
you know I couldn't tell you that.
Speaker 1 (14:49):
All right, Chaz, give me a funny story. Are there
any that are day kind of money? I mean, I
know the circumstances are always bad.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
Okay, yeah, there's always good.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
There's always a bad circumstance. You're going and investigate something
really bad. But let's like, is there one that you
got to stay in the area is a little bit, Yeah,
me because I need it all right.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
So I remember a time when we did the search warrant.
It was in the southern part of Loser Counting and
we did a search warrant. And back in the day
when when I was first on the team, we had
a supervisor who if we can get in through a
window or a door without taking a door down. In
(15:34):
other words, if we're knocking announcing Saint Police search warrant,
no one's come to the door, and we didn't. We
weren't sure someone was in and out. We would try
to look for a window and if we can get
in because we have a search wark into the house.
This way, we're not taking the door down. I remember
getting you know, you know, get pushed your windows to
get into residences to gain access so I could get
(15:57):
to the door to let the rest of the team
in to clear the house. Secure to house, so we're
all safe. But yeah, so when we we execute a
search war in this particular part of the county, I
remember there's music playing it's it's all really loud music blasting.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
And Brits.
Speaker 2 (16:15):
Music. I couldn't even tell you what kind of it's
just it's, you know, it's a funny story. It's a
dark humor story. But it's something that you try to
forget sometimes that you actually have been part of this. Right, So,
as upon entering suspect's bedroom, this individual is actually having
(16:37):
a sexual relationship with a blow up doll. And it's
specifically it was a Jamie Jennison's blow up doll. J Yes,
And as we're going into this individual's room, he was, yes,
having like you know, or or and I should really
(17:01):
say shortly thereafter having sex with because let's just say,
bodily fluids were found on that doll.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
Now he had to stop. So he's twing his thing.
How the music's really loud? Did you you have to
like say, excuse me, police send to you as like,
oh no, I mean, I'm sure it's more energy in
the moment than that. But what what happened there?
Speaker 2 (17:32):
Yeah, well I listen. It's just it's so hard to
explain because I just remember the guys going into that
room and when they went in and they had told
us like Hey, you're not going to believe this, right
about this. He's got a blow up doll. Clearly there's
(17:53):
bodily fluid in this doll. And I'm like, no, you
got to be kidding me, right, Like that's not for real. Right,
They're like, no, it's for real. And so yes, So
he was having a sexual relationship with that doll with
some loud music, and here the police coming to his
residence to execute search war for child sexual abuset material. So, uh,
(18:19):
that's that's interesting. It's definitely something that you don't find
every day when you're dealing this job. And again, we
find crazy things, you know, don't I tell people. Here's
what I tell you. If you're a listener and you
do have these kind of devices, think about putting in
(18:41):
somewhere where if the police were to come to do
a search for at your house, it's not right next
to your bed, because it's one of the first places
we're searching, right, Like, we find all your stuff, right,
so maybe put it somewhere. Not because we don't want
to find it. We don't want to see it. I
don't want to have to touch it, we don't want
to have to look at it. It's not what we're
there for. But it's just amazing the stuff that you
(19:03):
come across when you're you're doing this particular job, right,
you know. So again that's one of those dark humor
moments that you know, you come across that moment and
you think about that and like it's like, wow, it's
a different job. You know. You you leave there and say, well,
that's something you never really thought you'd run into in
(19:23):
your lifetime, right or come across. Right, So now, so
it's it's pretty it's pretty it's pretty interesting to think
about that, you know. And then you know, there's that
moment and then there's always sad moments when you know,
we you know, we find things, and that uh, you know,
(19:45):
it makes you realize that why you're doing a job.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
You do, why it's real, why you're there.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
Yeah. Yeah, and you know when we're talking about this,
and it really was a I don't really consider a
dark humor, but it was. It was an incredible find.
It was great work by the investigators on scene. Again,
we were executing a search warrant for a neighboring county
and this individual was a coach of some sort and
(20:19):
memory serves me correct, I believe he was a soccer.
Speaker 1 (20:22):
Coach, lots of access to children, trustworthy community member.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
You know, yes, you know that. And I never say
there's a norm, because there really isn't a norm, right,
I mean, there's not a you know, there's not a norm.
So but yes, I mean, and I remember doing the
search WARRK, and we knew going in there that this
this individual had access to children or some type of coach.
(20:54):
And during this search, I remember one of the investigators
came across a find that was very well hidden and
it wasn't an electronic swords device. It was an image
of a young girl, a picture of this beautiful young girl,
(21:15):
and it was cut out the shape of her head
and when you look at that picture, where her mouth
was was cut out.
Speaker 1 (21:31):
So he's abasing this little girl in his mi oh.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
Gosh, it is in his sexual fantasies. He was using
that image of that minor child. And just a thought
of that, you know, always brings you back to like
reality of why you're doing the job you're doing, what
(21:55):
is going on with this individual? You know, Yeah, it's
why we're there, right, We're there not only to you know,
stop child self exploitation, but certainly child sexual abuse, and
you know, to identify victims that we may not even
be aware of, right, and so as much as dark
(22:17):
humor we get to have, then we get moments like
that that you're just like, my god, this is someone's daughter.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
I have to go back because speaking of identifying there,
this is a real child, were you able to find
out who that child was?
Speaker 3 (22:34):
And did was there?
Speaker 1 (22:36):
I think? Was that child within his circle of connections?
Speaker 2 (22:43):
Yes, that child was in his circle of connection. Again,
if memories serves it correctly, I do not believe, thankfully,
that child was sexually abused by him, and and and
I don't say this lightly, but thank god it was
only his fantasy at that point, because God only knows
(23:04):
where that was progressive? Right, And we know a deal
in these individuals that their stages. There's the child erotica stages,
there's you know, and then it goes from child erotica
to the child's sexual abuse material, to the hands on
to I'm going to take someone from their home and
away from their family, right, so we know the steps.
(23:25):
People of society may hear about it, but when you
live every day of your life, it's just it's just
that progression. It's like a ladder for us, and we
just look at that individual and we try to figure
out where is this person on that ladder in that
progression and.
Speaker 3 (23:43):
He had a real victim in mind.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
And did you have to I would think you'd have
to sit down with this victim and speak with her
and her family about this.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
Yes, but the investigators did in fact, yes, of course
you know. And how scary, right, I mean, did you
imagine as a parent, you're finding out maybe this individual
might be your coach, your daughter's coach, and he's standardizing
that you're daughter in a sexual manner.
Speaker 1 (24:17):
Or who might be taking them to the pizza after
the game. And you want to trust people and think
that people are having good influence in your child's life.
And it's so sad, but people out there who have kids,
you can't trust anybody. And Chas you would know that
(24:39):
better than most people. That this is so far reaching.
And like you said, there's not a type, but it
often is somebody who seems to be hiding in plain
sight and they are at the top of the community.
They're so kind, they're involved hair about kids, they would
(25:01):
never seem to hurt anybody. They seem like good people,
so that you look the other way and again just
thankfully you are there to find to find this and
investigate it and not even just look at the image
and be like, Okay, well don't know who that is,
don't go further. That investigations take so much work, and
(25:22):
that it's not just as simple as okay, hey we
found a device, there's CESAM on it. Okay, arrest done,
prison for life. That's not how how any of this works.
And we have to really work to protect our children
because that soccer coach or whatever kind of coach he was,
like I said, was probably the kindest person and children
(25:47):
likely really trusted him and liked him, and he was
a terrible predator. What a disgusting, awful story. One of
the things I tend to hear a lot, and you
wouldn't be surprised to hear this, but people really might
be that people. Oh, it's just images. They would never
(26:09):
hurt anybody, it's just a fantasy.
Speaker 3 (26:11):
But they're getting.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
Out their urges by doing this, that they would never
hurt anybody because they got out their urge and now
they fulfilled their fantasy in that way. And that is
my friend I'm gonna swear it's bullshit. It's bullshit.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
I agree, you know. And and when we're on that topic,
since we're talking about this, I really want listeners to
understand something that when people hear about child sexual abuse
material in society in general may not understand the context
of this. But you know, there are people in our
(26:49):
society who believe, Okay, well, what harm are these individuals
doing if they're just looking? And I got to tell
you something right now, there's nothing more that kisses me
out more than hearing someone say that, because that's the
that's just simply bullshit. There. You don't know where they
(27:11):
are in that progression when they they may be that
your child away from doing something and sexually abusing a child.
And you know, I hate that. I hate when I
hear people say that. I hate when I hear people
in politically affiliated with in our society who say they're
(27:39):
just looking at it. But there's not just looking at it.
I mean, that's the worst. That's the worst thing to say.
If you're one of those child sexual exploitation survivors. That
would probably crush me if I'd been a survivor of
child sexual exploitation to hear someone say that would probably
(28:01):
crush me because that is furtherest from the truth, and
it's just nothing more than bullshit. These people are proressing.
It's just a matter of what stage are we getting.
So I just want people to understand that because I
think it's one of the biggest misconceptions in our society.
(28:22):
When we talked about this child sexual abuse materials and
it just really pissed me off.
Speaker 1 (28:31):
I'm right with you on that, and I'm sure so
many of our listeners are pissed off right now too.
It is a huge movement to minimize this. I've even
seen organizations out there that have really pushed let's do
child sex dolls because then again they can fulfill that
(28:53):
urge and they won't have to harm an actual child.
And I don't know anytime I've ever seen And why
do advertisements exist? Why do we have pretend things? It's
because it makes us want the real thing, right we watch.
It's a terrible thing here to say, but we watch
(29:13):
like a I won't name a fast food place, but
I don't think they like that, but a fast food
place and you see it on TV and you're like, Okay,
I want that. I'm going to go get it. It
doesn't make you go, Okay, I've had it and I'm done.
I don't I'm not hungry now.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
No, totally agree. It's a great analogy of what's going
on in our society. I totally agree with you. I mean,
it's just our society needs to understand that at the
end of the day, they need to understand that these
individuals are progressive and to say that they're just looking
is nothing more. When you say just looking, no, I
(29:50):
think about this, think about not only just looking. They're
sexually gratifying themselves. Ninety eight percent of people I've arrested
in my rear for child sexual abuse, child sexual exploitations specifically,
they're sexually gratifying themselves. Just like you said, It's exactly
(30:10):
what you said it. They're how much more are they
going to keep pretending before they say I want the
real thing?
Speaker 1 (30:17):
Right?
Speaker 2 (30:18):
It's not. It's like drugs, right. The people take drugs
and they keep getting more they get they take, you know,
start off with a smaller drug and up to a
really heavy illicit drug because they want that better feeling.
I don't understand this is the same thing. This is
the same analogy that we should be using in society
(30:39):
when we're talking about this problem.
Speaker 1 (30:41):
And you said that it would crush a child's exploitation survivor.
The man who did this to me was obviously a
hands on a fender and he did this, but he
had live stream what he was doing to me. And
there were people who watched that. Those people, I don't
(31:02):
know who they are, but they were watching a little
girl be tied up and beaten and screaming and crying
and begging, and they were enjoying the pain and the suffering.
And it's such a fine line between the watcher and
(31:24):
the doer, and we can't ignore that. So hopefully people
who are listening, who are in this space and in
this world too, and the political figures, as you said,
who really push this message stop stop stop stop, because
(31:45):
you can either save kids or you can hurt kids.
And to push this premise is you are hurting kids
and you are helping offenders. Which side do you want
to be on? I know which side I will want
to be on and have fought to be on and
then fight in and live in. I know what side you,
Jazz and so many other people, What side do you
(32:06):
want to be on your work. To you, I don't
think it's just a case number. I don't think it
comes down to a badge or even one arrest, right,
it's and I can see and I know from speaking
with so many law enforcement officers who are in this
(32:27):
space that it's not something you can just leave at
the door. I know when I was working on my
psych degree, that's something they would say, just leave it
at the door. And it's like, you can't leave it
at the door. That's not how empathy works. You can try,
but that you carry those images in these stories and
(32:47):
the voices and children suffering with you so often. And
you've did this for is it sixteen plus years now
that you've worked in crimes against children?
Speaker 2 (33:00):
Yes, sixteen over just over sixteen years, and you know,
and that's it.
Speaker 1 (33:06):
I mean, you're right, And it was ever just a job,
right you were like, Okay, I'm going to work today
doing my job.
Speaker 2 (33:16):
No, unfortunately, that's not how I work. I mean, And yeah,
you talk. You touched on something just a couple of
seconds ago that I'd like to maybe elaborate a little
bit more on, if I may, is about cops, you know,
leading at the door. Yeah, Well, you're a police officer,
if you're trained to like kind of like, don't take
(33:37):
the job home with you, right, leave it, leave it.
You take your uniform off, put it in your locker,
like everything's supposed to stay there. That's the furthest from
the truth. I mean, I can tell you that when
I have child victims, I develop a relationship to those
individuals because most of them have been not only abused
(34:03):
but misled by trusted adults, and to have them to
trust me, I would never leave them ever. And you know,
I'm proud to say that I never left it at
the door. And I know it lays heavy on my heart.
I know it weighs heavy on my mind, but at
(34:24):
the end of the day, that passion has got to
be there, and it's sort of what motivates you to
do these kind of investigations, you know. And I've been
proud to say that. You know, I've been a part
of probably one of the best teams in the country
here at Pennsylvania with my life Internet Crimes against Children's
(34:45):
Taskports for sixteen years. And I would put our team
up against any other team. And I don't want to
say we're the best. I want to say everything is
just as good as we are.
Speaker 1 (34:53):
Well, we've all said that so far, and I love that.
I want to I'm trying to think it, like what
kind of game show could I put to put you
all up against each other in fine at the top.
But yeah, you've all you've all said that, which is
really beautiful because it means that you trust your your
agency and your team and you all of you that
I've interviewed so far, and everybody that I know, nobody's
been like always suck uh uh. That you're part of
(35:17):
something that that's moving forward and that you can trust
and that you're you're proud to be a part of
and that they're making a difference.
Speaker 2 (35:27):
Yeah, for sure, I believe that we are, you know,
and I I developed these relationships with with my child survivors,
and you know, I see them walk into a child
Actacy center as a victim, and when I watch and
walk out that door, I just think, you are now,
You're now survivor, you're you're on the road to recovery.
(35:52):
Little do they know it. I will always be there
for them. I'll be that trusted adult that that should
have been there for them. I will never turn my
back to them. I I love getting invited to graduation parties,
to weddings, to go visit, to see now them, vot
to their life. Still I get invited to graduations. I
(36:14):
get invited. It is the most incredible feeling ever, you know.
You know, I'm proud to say that I could tell
you where most of my differences are today and because
I stay in touch with them, and I'm proud to
say that I don't you know. And and furthermore, they
(36:35):
stay in touch with me, they reach out to me.
There's nothing better than on Father's Day, Father's Day, I
had child victim reach out to me and wish me
a happy Father's Day, not even a month.
Speaker 1 (36:51):
Ago, Father's dage just passed, and say Father's Day just passed.
This is this is.
Speaker 3 (36:56):
Current, and you're not even doing this anymore.
Speaker 2 (37:01):
And and I received that. I received that message, you know,
like that's when, that's when you know, we make sacrifices
doing this child, Alisha, When you do crimes against children,
child sexual exploitation. Every investigator in the United States that
does this child, I don't care what they say. You
(37:21):
are making a sacrifice. And I know it's a very
high cost, but at the end of the day, it's
well worth it if and you know, that's what keeps
me going and kept things in perspective for me for
all those years, knowing that we are making a difference,
and more poorly in their life, in their that in
(37:42):
that child's life, and then I can look at another
child survivors had made a difference in their life, and
I'm there for them. You know, I have one mother
who just NonStop reaches out to me. We rescued four
children out of a house as a result of a
cyber tip, and that mother has Boy, she is just incredible.
(38:04):
She reaches out to me monthly and thanks me for
everything that not just me, but my hire team because
it is a team effort. But I get I'm the
contact person, and you know, it's just amazing to have that,
to have that connection, you know, to me, it's just
(38:25):
it means the world to me.
Speaker 1 (38:27):
That makes me so happy to hear for so many reasons,
the people who are listening to this and they think
about all the victims who are left behind and that
you didn't leave them behind. It and also makes me really
happy because I kept in contact with the people who
rescued me and for many years until most of them
are tired. I would send them a birthday cake on
(38:50):
my birthday because I wouldn't have had that birthday without them.
And I've reconnected and I've done trainings with some of them,
which has been a full circle moment. I've spent time
with their kids. They are I am now the age
that they were when I was rescued, which is really
(39:11):
twisty because they seemed like such sure adults and now
I realized like they were just bumbling through life. I
think we just never stopped doing that. But that the
story doesn't end there for the victims, and that support
doesn't end that the one little girl that you talked
about and she had to leave her home and that
(39:33):
Spike was there for her, but that she may have
left her home, but she didn't. She doesn't have to
lose lose support. As you said, a lot of these
children have been hurt by people who are so close
to them and who trusts that who they trust and
who should protect and love them, and they lose that,
and that you can kind of fill in that spot
(39:56):
on whatever level and provide that care because it's it's
it's lonely being a survivor. And the world feels so
scary afterwards. And I have a beautiful family and I'm
so lucky to have a wonderful support and if I didn't,
I don't know where I would be. But I still was,
(40:19):
and still am a little bit afraid of the world
and afraid of trusting people. And to have that person
that you can trust and that you can call and
that you can wish a happy Father's Day, it's just
really beautiful. Thank you for being, for being you and
(40:40):
for not leaving any of these children behind.
Speaker 2 (40:48):
It's an honor and an honor for thirty five years.
I'm very fortunate.
Speaker 1 (40:53):
And it's expensive as far as physical cost, emotional cost,
all of it, and people, I don't think realize that.
I really think a lot of people think, Okay, this
is what I do. I signed up for this job.
I go to work, I have a nine to five,
I come home. Maybe it's a little bad sometimes, but
(41:15):
people don't really know. And this is a true crime podcast.
It is in the true crime category, and I'm really
proud of that, but I also call it real crime
versus I feel like true crime has become this like
more so entertainment, which is fine and I'm a true
crime person. I don't want to say true crime fan.
I always think about like if I was like, I'm
(41:36):
a fan of true crime, that makes sense. If I
say I am a fan of real crime, you would
maybe arrest me. I said in your introduction that Spike
saved your life and that you are a survivor, that
you've carried this weight not only as an officer, but
(41:58):
as a survivor yourself, and that you've shared this publicly,
that you are a survivor. Can you share as much
as you are comfortable sharing about that part of your story?
Speaker 2 (42:09):
Of course? Of course you know, and you know, being
in law enforcement and investigating crimes against shovel specifically sexual
abuse and job sexual exploitation for sixteen years, you know,
I you know, this job really had me. My mental
(42:34):
health wasn't very well. And knowing that part of that
of this job is to you know, see the stuff
we have to see and hear the things that we
see and then have to write a report about what
we were actually watching and listening to, you know, it
took its toll on me. I As much as I
(42:58):
love doing my job, love doing a shop, I love
saving you know, children and but it took its toll
on my on my metal weal being. And so with
that being said, I I started seeking out counseling because
when I thought things couldn't get worse what I was
(43:19):
actually reviewing on my computer screens, it got a lot worse.
And I realized I was starting to self medicate myself
with alcohol. No one in my family is a big
drinker at Lisha. We never have been drinkers. And I
(43:42):
just found myself doing things I normally haven't done. And
you know, my family, my brother specifically, how did an
intervention me one time say, Hey, I can't help to
notice that, you know, since you've been doing this job,
you're you're drinking. I'm worried a little bit more about you,
and you know, and then of course the rest of
(44:04):
my family all stepped up and, you know, maybe realize
that I am actually going down a hole. Maybe I
need to get myself some help, right, And.
Speaker 1 (44:15):
It's not as your jovial self that you're that you're struggling.
They could see that from the outside.
Speaker 2 (44:24):
Well, let me let me just back up a little bit,
because I was Sometimes it was a little hard to
tell if Chad Balow was having a bad day because
I'm not the kind of person that wants to bring
people down. I'm that kind of person who wants to
you know, but if I get quiet, then you know
(44:46):
it's probably something's wrong, right, And so that's pretty much
what happened. And you know, after my family, not just
to my tention, I wroized maybe I I need to
go get some and doing that because of what I've
been experiencing and what I've been witnessing on a computer
screen for so many years is affecting my mental health
(45:10):
and my metal well being. I in fact did do that.
I started going to a psychologist, Alicia. I was going
every Monday at twelve o'clock every week, I mean for
several or several months. Never had I've realized, yes, but
never did I realize what good would have come out
(45:30):
of this, and never realize, you know, how much it
helped me, Because when you're in this line of work,
there's a lot of things that go with it. First
of all, you know, you're seeing things you shouldn't have
to see. Ever, no humans should have to see what
we're seeing or hear what we have to see. But
the didn't have to transcribe that and then you know,
(45:55):
you reliving some of these child victims most horrific moments
of their life with them. And you know, I was
getting to the point where, Okay, I'm going to need
some help. But you think everyone listening, all the listeners
out there, think they got safeguards in place and they're
gonna help you. They're gonna prevent you from going down
(46:18):
this deep hole. I'm going to tell you something. And
there's agencies out there that are allowing people to do
the job I did, and they're not actually helping us
with our mental health and our mental well being. And
I'm ashamed to say that. And you know what, and
I don't And I'm not upset at agencies. I'm not.
(46:41):
Everyday life gets in the way. Everyone's doing their thing,
but I think there's got to be check the balances.
And I find that there's that wasn't being done. It
wasn't being done. In the sixteen years that I did that, Alisha,
not one person ever came to me in my agency
and said, hey, are you doing okay? Are you okay?
(47:02):
Sixteen years of looking at child sexual res material.
Speaker 1 (47:05):
Nobody ever, never if you're involved in a shooting or anything,
you have to go to therapy and they require you
to do things, but they're not asking you about this.
I always think that you are also a victim of
the material that you have to see against your will.
(47:27):
You have to see it, but you're still a victim
of it, and it still has to impact you. There
has to be, like you said, checks and balances, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (47:37):
Right, and there are. They have policies in place, but
you'll be surprised to know that agencies are following your
own policies when it comes to dealing with Internet crimes
against Children's Task Force investigators, and it's shameful. And then
and then you have the other side of the of
the coin where you have guys say I'm okay, I'm okay,
(47:59):
I'm really okay. That's all bullshit. You're not okay. You
are not okay. You know. I used to try to
tell myself that. I used to say that to myself,
I'm gonna be okay. I'm a big guy, I'm a
strong guy. I'm gonna be all right. Let me tell
you something that's bullshit. I wasn't okay. I was not okay.
(48:20):
I'll never forget the night I had a breakdown at
a neighbor's house party, and I just totally lost it.
I just totally lost it. And there was a police
officer there who was a friend, a good friend, and
he's like, I'll never forget him, saying, you need to
get out of that line of work or it's gonna
(48:41):
kill you. You need to get yourself some help, you know,
And and it just resonated with me, with my family
telling me everything that's going on, having that breakdown, I'm like,
I need to get help, and you know, so that
big tough cop and oh, we're gonna be okay, you
know what again, bullshit, we need to get help. Every
(49:03):
investigator out there, do not be that person. I'm telling you.
I was that person. I'm telling you I was going
at a place where I don't know if I was ever
going to come out of it. And when you get
to that point, sometimes it's too late. So I highly
recommend them getting help. And hence my story being a survivor, right,
(49:27):
so I go get help, and out of that of
not telling anyone in over forty years that I was
sexually abused by a step parent, it changed my life.
(49:58):
Another huge moment in my life that I finally got
some burden off my shoulder. And I say the burden
because it would. I always thought about it. And when
I talk about this, and let's not forget I'm a
detective who investigates crimes against children, specifically sexual abuse and
(50:20):
child sexual exploitation. Think about that for one second. Who
am I ever gonna How could I ever talk about this?
I was always afraid that if I went to get help.
First of all, they're gonna say there's something wrong. Maybe
you can't do this job anymore. And now my livelihood's gone, right,
Like I have no livelihood. So as a cop, we
(50:41):
have to think like that, right, Oh, if I gotta
go see Colls, They're gonna think there's something wrong with me.
We gotta put him on leave. You gotta go who
you know? As cops, that's first thing we think they're
taking my gun and badge. And then once you get
past that, like I did, I go and get this help,
and then to only find out that me going there
(51:03):
helped me disclose to my psychologists. The only person, the
first person ever to know that I was a survivor
of sexual abuse was her. And I can't begin to
tell you how great that felt. After I was done.
I felt so relieved. I was worried because and I
(51:26):
told her this that day. I'll never forget her telling
her this story. I said, I can never really talk
to my family about this or anyone else. I don't
want people to know. I don't ever want it to
get out because I used to think, if I'm gonna
I'm taking trials with these interviews, they're taking trials denying me.
Get all this time. I'm me a next to a
child victim. I'm one of the next witnesses that's gonna
(51:50):
cibstantiate what that child survivor told me and relate to me.
And I'm putting everything together. There's a defense turning on
the other side of that table, just waiting to come
at me with whatever they got to try to help
their client get off of whatever they did. Right, So
you don't think.
Speaker 1 (52:08):
They weaponize it, Oh my goodness.
Speaker 2 (52:10):
Well, and that's what that But as a cop, that's
how I had to think. You understand, like I had
to worry that if I ever came out publicly and
said I'm a you know, a survivor of sexual abuse
as a child, They're gonna just say, oh, is it
a true detective value that you have nothing. You are,
(52:31):
you are had you house to get these guys because
you were victimized, you know. And I know people listening
to this might say that's the most observed thing, But
let me just tell you something that's bullshit too, because
we think like that we're cops, and that's what I
had to think. I had to worry about stupid shit
like that and not like and it's crazy. So amongst
(52:54):
all the stuff that was going on in my life now,
I had that that was always in my in my
mind and more so in my heart because I carried it,
never told anyone, and so here I am dealing with
this now, right, And I can tell you after that.
(53:17):
I remember my brother and I we we had a
family dinner. We were all out at a family local
restaurant and we were all out of It was a
beautiful summer day and my family were all together and
we're all hanging out and everyone left. My brother said,
he why don't you stay behind? And I'm like, yeah, sure, sure,
let's stay down. We'll just we'll chat it out. I'm like, okay,
(53:40):
we're just gonna talk and just be brothers. And you know,
all of a sudden within minutes after everyone left, and
you know, we're sitting there. My brother, I could just
tell my space got so serious and I thought, oh
my god, what's wrong? Like I could tell something was
wrong immediately. So he said, I I asked you a question,
(54:02):
and I go yes, he goes, yes, I go yes,
he goes, I didn't ask a question, and I it
was the weirdest moment because now I know, just by
(54:29):
his face and by what he was saying, and he
was trying to purr, was hey, you know, did John
ever touch you? And my answer was yes. And when
he said when I said yes, and he didn't asked
the question, and I told him I knew what he
(54:50):
was referring to my brother, it seemed like the life
came out of him because he felt like he didn't
protect me, and because you know, obviously he was also
a part of that abuse, and he felt he was
(55:14):
going to take that and so that it would never
happen to me. And my brother used to always be
like tough on me about sleeping downstairs. Don't ever fall
asleep on the couch downstairs, Never fall asleep. He'd lose
his mind, he'd flipped out on me. He'd met, and
(55:37):
I can never understand why he yelled at me, like
I thought he was losing his mind. And all the
time think about this, how many years later on how
thinking he was telling me he's trying to save me,
he was trying to see me the whole time. And
I'm like, you've got to be kidding me, you know.
So I'm like, oh my god, it was just it's
(56:00):
just a moment, you know, that we shared together that
we were both survivors of that.
Speaker 1 (56:10):
Perpetrator and he was protecting you all that time, and.
Speaker 2 (56:19):
You know, it's just it's just crazy. It's crazy to
think about that, and you know, it feels good to
be able to talk about it, not to be embarrassed
about it. You know, again, I was ashamed, right, I mean,
(56:39):
I had every sign that survivors have when I you know,
and I'm investigating these crimes, I'm dealing with these people
on a daily basis. I can. They had no idea
how much I can relate to what they were telling
in some of the stories that they were telling. Uh,
you know, and I've never shared this before. I remember
(57:08):
dealing with a male victim and telling him that I
was a victim of sexual abuse, and it was just
(57:29):
him and I have the kitchen cable, and he was
very luck to tell me what happened to him. And
after talking to him and telling him, I understand how
he feels on what he's going through and what what
(57:50):
it means to be a guy and for what people
might think. And you know, he finally actually disclosed to
me what actually happened to him, you know, And you know,
I think about I go back, I think about something
bad happened to me, and I wasn't using it, but
(58:13):
I wanted him to know that I know exactly what
you're going through. You know, when I talked to females
that have been sexually abused, I don't know what they
went through, right, but I know what he went through.
I know what it's like. I know what's going through
his mind. So for me, it was a defining moment,
(58:35):
like I can actually help people if I'm not afraid
to talk about it. And you know, but it took
years after that, It took years. It took many many
years because I was always worried about my job and
what these people, you know, are gonna think on the
(58:55):
defense side or outside, you know. So but yeah, it's tough.
It's just an overall tough job, you know. So you know,
all this comes back to how Spike saved my life, right,
Like I wrote an article about how Spike wrote my
(59:16):
you know, he saved my life, like, and I was
going through those bad times when I had Spike, and man,
you have no idea how much he means to me,
how much he went through with me when no one
else knew. Spike knew, right, he knew, he knew those
(59:37):
bad days, he knew those you know, times in the
car around just talking to or crying. I'm crying and
he looks at you with those beautiful brown eyes and
telling you, like reassuring things are gonna be okay. You know.
So you know when you read that story that that's
the meaning behind that story, that Spike was.
Speaker 1 (59:56):
There for you when other people couldn't be, and that
he was able to recognize that you were acting different
differently and he didn't and he couldn't ask you the questions.
All he could do was offer you that comfort and
support and love. And what a great great sidekick and
(01:00:19):
a great partner. And just thank you so much for sharing,
for sharing that story and the way that you did,
and You are just so brave, and I'm so sorry
that not only did that happen to you and happened
to your brother, but that when these people commit these crimes,
(01:00:41):
that it doesn't just end. It doesn't just end with
the abuse, that it continues on and on and on
and on for so many years, and that you that
you carried it, and you carried it for so many
different reasons, that you were protecting your job. That there
is this tear riable stigma surrounding this, how it would
(01:01:02):
be used against you by defense attorneys who are trying
to get these horrible people who are abusing children to
not go to prison. It's horrendous, and I'm so sorry
that you had to experience that. And I'm just so grateful.
I'm just so grateful for you, Chaz. I'm so grateful
for your friendship. I'm so lucky to know you and
(01:01:26):
to know Spike and to be a part of this
world with you, And thank you for just all that
you've done in so many ways. And I know that
you've recently retired and you've stepped away from this part
of it, and I have to wonder how that impacts
(01:01:48):
you too, because you are so good at your job
and that differences were being made and children's lives were
being saved and somebody had to take over for your position.
Was that hard for you to step away?
Speaker 2 (01:02:05):
Yeah, that it's always been the hardest thing, Alicia. You know,
it was never a job for me. It was never
ever you know, it was something I I'm going to
tell you, no will ever say I didn't work hard
and I wasn't passionate about the job I did. And
it got to the point where you know, I I
(01:02:27):
would not go on vacations. There are so many things
I wouldn't do because I felt if I stepped away
from my duties, is that leaving a child to be
abused for another week? Why I'm with my family, enjoying
myself and doing things and not helping someone. And you know,
(01:02:51):
people don't realize that not just a statement, it's it's
it's the truth. There's there are a lot more investigators
just like Chaz balloout there who have that same passion
and the same belief and they need to know that
we need to step away once a while. I know
it's not easy, it's hard. It's hard to say that.
(01:03:17):
You know, you can't be that life saving person for
the entire world, even though that we try to be
and I know they're trying to be, but you know,
our mental health is so important, and you know, for
me is an honor to have done the job I've
done and to know that although I retire, I'm still
(01:03:40):
doing something good and I'm still in the good fight.
Helping agency fight child sexual exploitation and helping them and
providing them with the tools they need brings me happiness
knowing although I don't have to look at those material
that material anymore, but just to know that I'm there,
I'm with them, I'm supporting them, and I'm certainly going
(01:04:04):
to be there for them. I will be there. If
they're any investigator that ever is going through this and
you're having that bad day, let me just tell you something.
Reach out contact me. It's very easy to reach out
to me because we're all in this together. And I
admire all the investigators doing the job they're doing that
I did, and you know, I applaud every single one
(01:04:27):
of them because at the end of the day, they
are saving children and we are we are making a
difference in the world, and there's nothing more satisfying than that. Ever,
no matter what we do in life, there's nothing more
satisfying saving a kid and helping them get through a
(01:04:51):
very tough time in their lives. So it's been an honor.
Let's say the least, thank you.
Speaker 3 (01:05:00):
And I know law enforcement.
Speaker 1 (01:05:03):
That it's hard to step away and take that break,
that breather and take time off. When I give my
presentations and I talk to law enforcement, and I always
hope that their commander or the chief or whomever is
in the room that has the power to do this,
I'm like, it's okay, Go ask for a day off.
Speaker 3 (01:05:23):
They're right there.
Speaker 1 (01:05:24):
Go it's okay. And I feel maybe sometimes as a
survivor that maybe even that permission is okay, that you
can step away, that you have to in order to
do this job. You are not You do not have
to victimize yourself and cause yourself so much pain. You
(01:05:49):
have to take care of yourself. No victim wants you
to suffer either, and you cannot do the job if
you are not taking care of your mental and physical health.
I know that law enforcement works out all the time.
They're always at the gym. There's all these physical tests
(01:06:10):
and all these things you have to do that physical
part is so important to keep up. You have to
keep up that mental health part too, especially in this
line of it. And Chaz means that please do reach
out to him. I will put his contact information jazz.
You might get a lot of a lot of messages
from people, but that they'll invite you to their weddings
(01:06:36):
and their graduations. You're gonna be busy.
Speaker 2 (01:06:38):
Oh no.
Speaker 3 (01:06:39):
What the other thing about law enforcement.
Speaker 1 (01:06:43):
Is that you don't ever really retire, like retirement for
you is not a beach and a mye tie. It
is going to another position that does similar work. And
I know you talked a little bit about your position.
Can you tell me a little bit more about your
current position and with our Rescue?
Speaker 2 (01:07:03):
Yes, So my current position is with our Rescue, which
is our mission is to eradicate human trafficking and child
sexual exploitation and actually empower survivors. And my position is
specifically I am the ESD Canine Relationship Manager, where you know,
(01:07:29):
I actually help law enforcement obtain electronics storage detection canines
throughout the United States and to provide them at no
cost or very little cost to that agency so that
they have the tools necessary to find those devices that
are hidden that they're going to miss if they don't
(01:07:50):
have that tool.
Speaker 1 (01:07:51):
But I do want to ask, because I've asked everybody,
and I want to continue to ask this. I think
it's a really important question. Do you think evil is winning?
You've worked in the space for sixteen plus years, You've
seen technology change within that time. Do you think evil
is winning?
Speaker 2 (01:08:09):
Although that technology is always moving faster than law enforcement
to keep up with. I want to say that there's
always more good in the world than evil. So I
will say this. I will say this, there's not enough
(01:08:29):
law enforcement to fight the evil, to keep up with
the evil, is what I'm going to tell you.
Speaker 1 (01:08:37):
That's absolutely true. And you and I we've worked together
on Alicia's Law in Pennsylvania. Maybe by the time that
this launches, we could do a celebration because it has
been years now that we have been working on getting
law enforcement funding and resources through Alicia's Law. And you've
(01:08:57):
come with me to the press conferences and have spoken
and have fought for this alongside me, and so grateful
for your support there, and really hope it passes because
it is so true. There is just there is so
much evil out there. There are so many bad people
out there doing horrible things that we go over in
(01:09:20):
this podcast, and we'll continue to talk about and it
will get worse and the stories are going to be heartbreaking.
But we have to fund the ones who can make
a difference. We have to fund law enforcement, We have
to fund investigators. We have to get these wonderful ESDK
nines in with these different agencies so that everybody has
(01:09:43):
the resources, because it doesn't matter what the community is,
if it's the seemingly safest community in the world or
the most dangerous from the outside. This is happening everywhere,
and it is happening in your community and in your neighborhood,
and we have to make sure that your local law
(01:10:06):
enforcement has the ability to rescue these children and take
these people off the streets. In Chaz, I have thanked
you six million times and I will continue to thank
you because I am just so eternally grateful for the
amazing work that you have done over the years. I
think back to this little boy, you on your big wheel,
(01:10:29):
and like, I really just want you to take a
moment with me. This is very silly, but I want
you to take a moment with me and like, tell him,
tell him a sentence. Tell him what you want him
to know about his journey. Talk to that little boy
on the big wheel.
Speaker 2 (01:10:48):
You did it. I'll say, you did it, and you're
going to keep going. That's what I tell and he's.
Speaker 1 (01:10:57):
Going to be so excited and proud to grow up
to be Chaz Bellow. Chaz, thank you so much for
joining me. Thank you so much for being so open,
and thank you for all the work that you do
and continue to do. I'm honored to know you and
to be your friend, and hopefully we will be celebrating
(01:11:17):
Alicia's law very soon together. Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (01:11:22):
It's been a pleasure. Thank you very much for having me,
and you know I always look forward to seeing you
and working with you. And for sure, Petsyvania, we're going
to pass that. We're going to get Alisia's la past.
Speaker 1 (01:11:33):
And give Spike a little scratch pi the ears for
me and tell him he's a good point.
Speaker 2 (01:11:37):
That's a given.
Speaker 1 (01:11:44):
Thank you so much for tuning in. We really appreciate it.
We'll be releasing new episodes every Thursday. Make sure you
check out our YouTube channel and hit us up on
our social media on at Alicia Cosback Pod for extra
content around each episode, and please remember to subscribe on Apple, Spotify,
or wherever you get your podcasts.
Hello, and thank you so much for joining the Alicia
Cozac podcast. This is part two of my conversation with
my friend, former detective Sergeant Chas Ballock. In part one,
we talked about how Chaz got here is child a
dream of being a hero and becoming a cop, and
we ended on that really powerful story about how his
EESDK nine Spike helped a little girl find her voice.
And in part two, we go a lot deeper. Chaz
(00:25):
shares his own story as a survivor and talks about
his journey of saying it out loud for the first time,
which led to someone very close to him revealing that
he was also a victim. We talk about how a
vendors exploit trust, how they keep kids and even entire
families silent, and why it can take years to be
able to say this happened to me. We also dig
into one of the biggest questions in the space. Is
it ever a victimless crime to just look at child's
(00:48):
sexual abuse material? Chaz and I talk about what those
images really are, the ongoing harm to children in them,
and as someone who not only works in this space
but was also filmed and exploited, I have a lot
to say about this. Also get into the power of
finally sharing your voice, the stigma and in silence that
so many men carry around abuse and why breaking that
silence matters, and then changing the vibe a bit. We
(01:09):
also get into some lighter, really funny spike stories and
an honest conversation about mental health, burnout and knowing when
you have to step away from this work to take
care of yourself. As always, this conversation centers around real
victims and the real people who are doing this work.
So please take care of yourself while you listen. And
if this conversation is meaningful and helpful, please take a
second to like all Out and subscribe on our YouTube
(01:32):
and follow us across social media on at Alicia Kosackpod.
All right, let's get back into it. This work is
it seems so overwhelming that I don't know if we will.
I mean, I don't think it's possible to ever eradicate
all of this. We're never going to stop see sam
or child abuse. We can hopefully keep up with it
(01:56):
and move along with technology as it does, and say
these kids and catch these perpetrators. But for that little girl,
her her whole world was saved and you have saved
so many worlds. And I love that Spike brings this
this light and this joy. And I'm thinking about him
(02:20):
as a bowl in a china shop, like his big tail,
knocking everything over and just being really silly. Do you
have also any funny stories about Spike? Has he You've
taken this little fluffy creature into hell with you?
Speaker 2 (02:37):
Yeah, let's talk about this because I need a little
humor in my life right now. You know, uh, you
know when we talked about Spike, I mean, I tell
you how much I love him, and I tell I
want his legacy to forever live. You know, it's one
of the reasons why we wrote a children's book, you know,
(03:00):
Detective Spike, which is the coolest book in the world,
the coolest book.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
I remember when he sent me to like read over
and I was like, this is perfect.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
And but yeah, you know, I can tell you. I
remember we were out of search warrant and we were
in a rather cluttered bedroom and Spike just got done
clearing the bed area and there was a large amount
of clothing on the on the side right near a nightstand.
(03:35):
And so as Spike is going through this clothing, I
could tell clearly some kind of indication that something is here.
He's digging down into these clothes and I'm telling everyone,
I'm like, oh, there's something here and about you know.
Thirty seconds later, Spike has a he pulled out a
(04:00):
toy and uh in his mouth, and I'm thinking.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
Getting not with his hands, he doesn't have hands.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
Not with his hands, and I'm like, oh, my goodness, no,
this is not no, absolutely, and so of course it was.
Everyone laughed. He says, I'm thinking to myself, what are
you doing? What? This is not a dog's toy. This
is not a dog toy. And so yes, that's probably
(04:29):
one of the funnier things that Spike has come across
that caught me off guards.
Speaker 3 (04:36):
Let me you get a teeth brush?
Speaker 1 (04:37):
Did he give a teeth brush?
Speaker 2 (04:39):
One? Not only teeth brush? I have just you know,
we carry little medical bags. You always carry stuff. Goff forbid,
something should happen to your dog. You're ready to go.
But it's a little peanut butter spray. It's like exactly
peanut butter minty spray. It's a little green, delicious. It
is delicious for him. Right, I tried it. I was worried, well,
(05:03):
I mean, you do get some after it's not funny
if you don't want to do that outside. But yes,
so I was springing this mouth and but yes, I
was a little worried for a little bit there, but
you know, it is what it is. He went to work,
he's you know, and people, why did he find that? Well,
(05:26):
I tell people, these these devices anymore are us be charged,
and so they are being plugged in with a USB
device to be charged. So I'm going to leave it
at that.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
So he was able to find it because of that,
did you just okay, you you gave him a nice
little scrub down. You just put that back. And whoever's
it was like just later on, they don't know what
happened and that.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
Yeah, that's that's for them to find out, what you know.
Yeah on right, yeah, right, rather interesting, I gotta tell
you. You know, but hey, that's just part of the humor
of the job, right, I mean, you know, and that
that comes with this job, right in light of seeing
(06:21):
bad things and dealing with bad things. You know, that
kind of humor happens. And you know, it's just like
anything else in any other profession. We all have to
exhibit some kind of laughter. In certain situations. So there's
(06:41):
dark humor in this job. We all know it. And
I can tell you there's been a lot of good stories,
and I think one that I'd like to share with you,
and I hope it's not too much for your audience,
but oh.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
No, I want to go there. I we don't have
to censor anything. It's one thing I really like about
this podcast. Also, I love the dark humor. It is
a big reason why I wanted to create this podcast
because I sit down and I hear these stories and
I'm like, oh, I want to share this, but what
am I going to do? Share it over brunch with
my girlfriends? Like that's shared at the Thanksgiving dinner table.
Speaker 3 (07:13):
You can't do that. So where can I share these here?
Speaker 1 (07:16):
And they are the most ridiculous stories. And that dark
humor has always really helped me after I was rescued.
My mom called it whistling through the graveyard, and it
really it gave me this different perspective on everything, and
it allows you to escape what is happening, because no
matter how dark and awful it is, being so lost
(07:41):
in it, being hurt by it, you're not going to
be able to do what you also need to do.
And also these situations that you get in are just
utterly also ridiculous without any of the other things. So
I do want to hear some of these stories and
just go for it. Use all the language you want
to use.
Speaker 3 (08:00):
We can beep things, we can do whatever.
Speaker 1 (08:03):
We can. Just put a bunch of beeps and we
can let people wonder. Be fun. Go ahead, all right.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
So I specifically remember a time when we were executing
a search for We were assisting a neighboring county and
it's a very it's kind of like an apartment building
kind of where apartments appear to be very small but
a little longer. And so we're making an announcement that
(08:30):
we're entering the house. No one's answering the door, so
the doors forced opened, and as we're going through the apartment,
very small apartment, you know, you're hitting the kitchen and
like a little, very small little bedroom, and then you
get to like the rear, which is like it was
like a living room kind of. I guess, per se,
(08:51):
you want to sing. So we got through that door,
we noticed there was a look a female and there
was this couch and she was kneeling in front of
the couch and we're like, yeah, police, Like as we're
going through young police search whire, you know, if you're here,
make yourself known, all that kind of stuff. And this
person's not moving like at all, and we're gearing, I
(09:14):
mean we're and it's a small it's a small it's
a small room. We're like, what is going on? So
as we approach, we realized that this and and it's female,
had long hair. And as we approached this item, we
(09:35):
realized it was a human flesh doll. I've never ever, ever,
in all my time, I've come across a lot of
crazy things, and doing this job, I've never ever come
across a human size left doll. And this doll was
(09:56):
had a wing on, it had like a kind of
lingerie top on, and then it had underwear. And now
what was odd about this whole thing was that this
fresh ball, although it appeared to have very large breasts,
it had all the anatomy as a human and it's
(10:20):
a female, and but it was odd to me that
the underwear didn't match the kind of launch right top,
and the underwear actually were like a children a female
children's underwear again, Yeah, a little girl underwear and it
(10:43):
sort of took us back. And so when we looked
closely and actually rolled this doll over in the front
near the crotch area, was the word and the letters
and the numbers ten. Why oh and my terminology right,
(11:10):
a ten year old. For the listeners who don't understand
the world that we live in, that's a lot of
you know, the video descriptions or the image descriptions is
with the number in the age of that that poor
child victim.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
You know.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
So we went from a funny moment in that dark
humor real fast, but then it went right to reality,
like why we're there, right? I mean, we almost didn't
really get to enjoy the moment, Like I look back
and you think about it, and you know, to realize
that this sick individual literally has this economy human size
(11:51):
flus ball and with little girls underwear that is signifying
that it's a ten year old, you know. And then
we of course found other pairs of underwear that had
very similar markings different agents. Yes, and jess as John,
(12:11):
I couldn't tell you specifically, but I know the ten
year old was on the that doll at that time,
the ten yo and you know, there was a book
that was found that was very commonly used by individual
who sexually abused and sexually exploited children. So it's it's
(12:32):
sort of like, as much as we were that dark
humor was there, it just it sort of hit us
real fast, so very short, Yeah, it was. It sort
of was because we were like, but what was crazy?
Even more so that behind the couch if you could
have visioned this now, so she was on her knees
facing the couch, and behind the couch was a window
(12:56):
and he actually the perpetrator had a go pro set
because the mounts were on the window they seeing him.
Uh you know, so God only knows what's going on.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
There, right, using the stall of some sort.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
Right exactly, and then using a go pro camera to
record whatever was happening.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
Did you find the videos? Ye?
Speaker 2 (13:21):
I cannot remember if they found the those videos. I'd
be speaking on her if I told you they did,
of course, And I don't want to put out something
that I'm not one.
Speaker 3 (13:30):
Of course, I do want to ask to it.
Speaker 1 (13:35):
I'm frustrated because it sounded like a really funny story first.
So I'm imagining I picture this as like you walk
into a home and it's dark, and you can't really
see what's going on, and you are saying all your
little cop freezes to get this person to do what
they need to do. And I imagine you walking up
to it and it like falling over, and for a
moment you're like, oh no, It's like there had to
(13:56):
be this like moment of realization of what it was
that had to be really funny. And then you look
down and you see that. Oh and then and then
find more of the panties were do you know, if
you can remember or if you know or can share,
were they from? Do you know if they're from real children?
(14:17):
Or was he buying underwear and just writing ages on it.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
I don't know, because it was we were just assisting
the local agency. But right, if memory served it correctly,
I believe that you know, obviously they were not clean,
Oh no underwear, whether you know it was ejaculation from him,
like you know what I'm saying, so right exactly? So
(14:46):
you know I couldn't tell you that.
Speaker 1 (14:49):
All right, Chaz, give me a funny story. Are there
any that are day kind of money? I mean, I
know the circumstances are always bad.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
Okay, yeah, there's always good.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
There's always a bad circumstance. You're going and investigate something
really bad. But let's like, is there one that you
got to stay in the area is a little bit, Yeah,
me because I need it all right.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
So I remember a time when we did the search warrant.
It was in the southern part of Loser Counting and
we did a search warrant. And back in the day
when when I was first on the team, we had
a supervisor who if we can get in through a
window or a door without taking a door down. In
(15:34):
other words, if we're knocking announcing Saint Police search warrant,
no one's come to the door, and we didn't. We
weren't sure someone was in and out. We would try
to look for a window and if we can get
in because we have a search wark into the house.
This way, we're not taking the door down. I remember
getting you know, you know, get pushed your windows to
get into residences to gain access so I could get
(15:57):
to the door to let the rest of the team
in to clear the house. Secure to house, so we're
all safe. But yeah, so when we we execute a
search war in this particular part of the county, I
remember there's music playing it's it's all really loud music blasting.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
And Brits.
Speaker 2 (16:15):
Music. I couldn't even tell you what kind of it's
just it's, you know, it's a funny story. It's a
dark humor story. But it's something that you try to
forget sometimes that you actually have been part of this. Right, So,
as upon entering suspect's bedroom, this individual is actually having
(16:37):
a sexual relationship with a blow up doll. And it's
specifically it was a Jamie Jennison's blow up doll. J Yes,
And as we're going into this individual's room, he was, yes,
having like you know, or or and I should really
(17:01):
say shortly thereafter having sex with because let's just say,
bodily fluids were found on that doll.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
Now he had to stop. So he's twing his thing.
How the music's really loud? Did you you have to
like say, excuse me, police send to you as like,
oh no, I mean, I'm sure it's more energy in
the moment than that. But what what happened there?
Speaker 2 (17:32):
Yeah, well I listen. It's just it's so hard to
explain because I just remember the guys going into that
room and when they went in and they had told
us like Hey, you're not going to believe this, right
about this. He's got a blow up doll. Clearly there's
(17:53):
bodily fluid in this doll. And I'm like, no, you
got to be kidding me, right, Like that's not for real. Right,
They're like, no, it's for real. And so yes, So
he was having a sexual relationship with that doll with
some loud music, and here the police coming to his
residence to execute search war for child sexual abuset material. So, uh,
(18:19):
that's that's interesting. It's definitely something that you don't find
every day when you're dealing this job. And again, we
find crazy things, you know, don't I tell people. Here's
what I tell you. If you're a listener and you
do have these kind of devices, think about putting in
(18:41):
somewhere where if the police were to come to do
a search for at your house, it's not right next
to your bed, because it's one of the first places
we're searching, right, Like, we find all your stuff, right,
so maybe put it somewhere. Not because we don't want
to find it. We don't want to see it. I
don't want to have to touch it, we don't want
to have to look at it. It's not what we're
there for. But it's just amazing the stuff that you
(19:03):
come across when you're you're doing this particular job, right,
you know. So again that's one of those dark humor
moments that you know, you come across that moment and
you think about that and like it's like, wow, it's
a different job. You know. You you leave there and say, well,
that's something you never really thought you'd run into in
(19:23):
your lifetime, right or come across. Right, So now, so
it's it's pretty it's pretty it's pretty interesting to think
about that, you know. And then you know, there's that
moment and then there's always sad moments when you know,
we you know, we find things, and that uh, you know,
(19:45):
it makes you realize that why you're doing a job.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
You do, why it's real, why you're there.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
Yeah. Yeah, and you know when we're talking about this,
and it really was a I don't really consider a
dark humor, but it was. It was an incredible find.
It was great work by the investigators on scene. Again,
we were executing a search warrant for a neighboring county
and this individual was a coach of some sort and
(20:19):
memory serves me correct, I believe he was a soccer.
Speaker 1 (20:22):
Coach, lots of access to children, trustworthy community member.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
You know, yes, you know that. And I never say
there's a norm, because there really isn't a norm, right,
I mean, there's not a you know, there's not a norm.
So but yes, I mean, and I remember doing the
search WARRK, and we knew going in there that this
this individual had access to children or some type of coach.
(20:54):
And during this search, I remember one of the investigators
came across a find that was very well hidden and
it wasn't an electronic swords device. It was an image
of a young girl, a picture of this beautiful young girl,
(21:15):
and it was cut out the shape of her head
and when you look at that picture, where her mouth
was was cut out.
Speaker 1 (21:31):
So he's abasing this little girl in his mi oh.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
Gosh, it is in his sexual fantasies. He was using
that image of that minor child. And just a thought
of that, you know, always brings you back to like
reality of why you're doing the job you're doing, what
(21:55):
is going on with this individual? You know, Yeah, it's
why we're there, right, We're there not only to you know,
stop child self exploitation, but certainly child sexual abuse, and
you know, to identify victims that we may not even
be aware of, right, and so as much as dark
(22:17):
humor we get to have, then we get moments like
that that you're just like, my god, this is someone's daughter.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
I have to go back because speaking of identifying there,
this is a real child, were you able to find
out who that child was?
Speaker 3 (22:34):
And did was there?
Speaker 1 (22:36):
I think? Was that child within his circle of connections?
Speaker 2 (22:43):
Yes, that child was in his circle of connection. Again,
if memories serves it correctly, I do not believe, thankfully,
that child was sexually abused by him, and and and
I don't say this lightly, but thank god it was
only his fantasy at that point, because God only knows
(23:04):
where that was progressive? Right, And we know a deal
in these individuals that their stages. There's the child erotica stages,
there's you know, and then it goes from child erotica
to the child's sexual abuse material, to the hands on
to I'm going to take someone from their home and
away from their family, right, so we know the steps.
(23:25):
People of society may hear about it, but when you
live every day of your life, it's just it's just
that progression. It's like a ladder for us, and we
just look at that individual and we try to figure
out where is this person on that ladder in that
progression and.
Speaker 3 (23:43):
He had a real victim in mind.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
And did you have to I would think you'd have
to sit down with this victim and speak with her
and her family about this.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
Yes, but the investigators did in fact, yes, of course
you know. And how scary, right, I mean, did you
imagine as a parent, you're finding out maybe this individual
might be your coach, your daughter's coach, and he's standardizing
that you're daughter in a sexual manner.
Speaker 1 (24:17):
Or who might be taking them to the pizza after
the game. And you want to trust people and think
that people are having good influence in your child's life.
And it's so sad, but people out there who have kids,
you can't trust anybody. And Chas you would know that
(24:39):
better than most people. That this is so far reaching.
And like you said, there's not a type, but it
often is somebody who seems to be hiding in plain
sight and they are at the top of the community.
They're so kind, they're involved hair about kids, they would
(25:01):
never seem to hurt anybody. They seem like good people,
so that you look the other way and again just
thankfully you are there to find to find this and
investigate it and not even just look at the image
and be like, Okay, well don't know who that is,
don't go further. That investigations take so much work, and
(25:22):
that it's not just as simple as okay, hey we
found a device, there's CESAM on it. Okay, arrest done,
prison for life. That's not how how any of this works.
And we have to really work to protect our children
because that soccer coach or whatever kind of coach he was,
like I said, was probably the kindest person and children
(25:47):
likely really trusted him and liked him, and he was
a terrible predator. What a disgusting, awful story. One of
the things I tend to hear a lot, and you
wouldn't be surprised to hear this, but people really might
be that people. Oh, it's just images. They would never
(26:09):
hurt anybody, it's just a fantasy.
Speaker 3 (26:11):
But they're getting.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
Out their urges by doing this, that they would never
hurt anybody because they got out their urge and now
they fulfilled their fantasy in that way. And that is
my friend I'm gonna swear it's bullshit. It's bullshit.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
I agree, you know. And and when we're on that topic,
since we're talking about this, I really want listeners to
understand something that when people hear about child sexual abuse
material in society in general may not understand the context
of this. But you know, there are people in our
(26:49):
society who believe, Okay, well, what harm are these individuals
doing if they're just looking? And I got to tell
you something right now, there's nothing more that kisses me
out more than hearing someone say that, because that's the
that's just simply bullshit. There. You don't know where they
(27:11):
are in that progression when they they may be that
your child away from doing something and sexually abusing a child.
And you know, I hate that. I hate when I
hear people say that. I hate when I hear people
in politically affiliated with in our society who say they're
(27:39):
just looking at it. But there's not just looking at it.
I mean, that's the worst. That's the worst thing to say.
If you're one of those child sexual exploitation survivors. That
would probably crush me if I'd been a survivor of
child sexual exploitation to hear someone say that would probably
(28:01):
crush me because that is furtherest from the truth, and
it's just nothing more than bullshit. These people are proressing.
It's just a matter of what stage are we getting.
So I just want people to understand that because I
think it's one of the biggest misconceptions in our society.
(28:22):
When we talked about this child sexual abuse materials and
it just really pissed me off.
Speaker 1 (28:31):
I'm right with you on that, and I'm sure so
many of our listeners are pissed off right now too.
It is a huge movement to minimize this. I've even
seen organizations out there that have really pushed let's do
child sex dolls because then again they can fulfill that
(28:53):
urge and they won't have to harm an actual child.
And I don't know anytime I've ever seen And why
do advertisements exist? Why do we have pretend things? It's
because it makes us want the real thing, right we watch.
It's a terrible thing here to say, but we watch
(29:13):
like a I won't name a fast food place, but
I don't think they like that, but a fast food
place and you see it on TV and you're like, Okay,
I want that. I'm going to go get it. It
doesn't make you go, Okay, I've had it and I'm done.
I don't I'm not hungry now.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
No, totally agree. It's a great analogy of what's going
on in our society. I totally agree with you. I mean,
it's just our society needs to understand that at the
end of the day, they need to understand that these
individuals are progressive and to say that they're just looking
is nothing more. When you say just looking, no, I
(29:50):
think about this, think about not only just looking. They're
sexually gratifying themselves. Ninety eight percent of people I've arrested
in my rear for child sexual abuse, child sexual exploitations specifically,
they're sexually gratifying themselves. Just like you said, It's exactly
(30:10):
what you said it. They're how much more are they
going to keep pretending before they say I want the
real thing?
Speaker 1 (30:17):
Right?
Speaker 2 (30:18):
It's not. It's like drugs, right. The people take drugs
and they keep getting more they get they take, you know,
start off with a smaller drug and up to a
really heavy illicit drug because they want that better feeling.
I don't understand this is the same thing. This is
the same analogy that we should be using in society
(30:39):
when we're talking about this problem.
Speaker 1 (30:41):
And you said that it would crush a child's exploitation survivor.
The man who did this to me was obviously a
hands on a fender and he did this, but he
had live stream what he was doing to me. And
there were people who watched that. Those people, I don't
(31:02):
know who they are, but they were watching a little
girl be tied up and beaten and screaming and crying
and begging, and they were enjoying the pain and the suffering.
And it's such a fine line between the watcher and
(31:24):
the doer, and we can't ignore that. So hopefully people
who are listening, who are in this space and in
this world too, and the political figures, as you said,
who really push this message stop stop stop stop, because
(31:45):
you can either save kids or you can hurt kids.
And to push this premise is you are hurting kids
and you are helping offenders. Which side do you want
to be on? I know which side I will want
to be on and have fought to be on and
then fight in and live in. I know what side you,
Jazz and so many other people, What side do you
(32:06):
want to be on your work. To you, I don't
think it's just a case number. I don't think it
comes down to a badge or even one arrest, right,
it's and I can see and I know from speaking
with so many law enforcement officers who are in this
(32:27):
space that it's not something you can just leave at
the door. I know when I was working on my
psych degree, that's something they would say, just leave it
at the door. And it's like, you can't leave it
at the door. That's not how empathy works. You can try,
but that you carry those images in these stories and
(32:47):
the voices and children suffering with you so often. And
you've did this for is it sixteen plus years now
that you've worked in crimes against children?
Speaker 2 (33:00):
Yes, sixteen over just over sixteen years, and you know,
and that's it.
Speaker 1 (33:06):
I mean, you're right, And it was ever just a job,
right you were like, Okay, I'm going to work today
doing my job.
Speaker 2 (33:16):
No, unfortunately, that's not how I work. I mean, And yeah,
you talk. You touched on something just a couple of
seconds ago that I'd like to maybe elaborate a little
bit more on, if I may, is about cops, you know,
leading at the door. Yeah, Well, you're a police officer,
if you're trained to like kind of like, don't take
(33:37):
the job home with you, right, leave it, leave it.
You take your uniform off, put it in your locker,
like everything's supposed to stay there. That's the furthest from
the truth. I mean, I can tell you that when
I have child victims, I develop a relationship to those
individuals because most of them have been not only abused
(34:03):
but misled by trusted adults, and to have them to
trust me, I would never leave them ever. And you know,
I'm proud to say that I never left it at
the door. And I know it lays heavy on my heart.
I know it weighs heavy on my mind, but at
(34:24):
the end of the day, that passion has got to
be there, and it's sort of what motivates you to
do these kind of investigations, you know. And I've been
proud to say that. You know, I've been a part
of probably one of the best teams in the country
here at Pennsylvania with my life Internet Crimes against Children's
(34:45):
Taskports for sixteen years. And I would put our team
up against any other team. And I don't want to
say we're the best. I want to say everything is
just as good as we are.
Speaker 1 (34:53):
Well, we've all said that so far, and I love that.
I want to I'm trying to think it, like what
kind of game show could I put to put you
all up against each other in fine at the top.
But yeah, you've all you've all said that, which is
really beautiful because it means that you trust your your
agency and your team and you all of you that
I've interviewed so far, and everybody that I know, nobody's
been like always suck uh uh. That you're part of
(35:17):
something that that's moving forward and that you can trust
and that you're you're proud to be a part of
and that they're making a difference.
Speaker 2 (35:27):
Yeah, for sure, I believe that we are, you know,
and I I developed these relationships with with my child survivors,
and you know, I see them walk into a child
Actacy center as a victim, and when I watch and
walk out that door, I just think, you are now,
You're now survivor, you're you're on the road to recovery.
(35:52):
Little do they know it. I will always be there
for them. I'll be that trusted adult that that should
have been there for them. I will never turn my
back to them. I I love getting invited to graduation parties,
to weddings, to go visit, to see now them, vot
to their life. Still I get invited to graduations. I
(36:14):
get invited. It is the most incredible feeling ever, you know.
You know, I'm proud to say that I could tell
you where most of my differences are today and because
I stay in touch with them, and I'm proud to
say that I don't you know. And and furthermore, they
(36:35):
stay in touch with me, they reach out to me.
There's nothing better than on Father's Day, Father's Day, I
had child victim reach out to me and wish me
a happy Father's Day, not even a month.
Speaker 1 (36:51):
Ago, Father's dage just passed, and say Father's Day just passed.
This is this is.
Speaker 3 (36:56):
Current, and you're not even doing this anymore.
Speaker 2 (37:01):
And and I received that. I received that message, you know,
like that's when, that's when you know, we make sacrifices
doing this child, Alisha, When you do crimes against children,
child sexual exploitation. Every investigator in the United States that
does this child, I don't care what they say. You
(37:21):
are making a sacrifice. And I know it's a very
high cost, but at the end of the day, it's
well worth it if and you know, that's what keeps
me going and kept things in perspective for me for
all those years, knowing that we are making a difference,
and more poorly in their life, in their that in
(37:42):
that child's life, and then I can look at another
child survivors had made a difference in their life, and
I'm there for them. You know, I have one mother
who just NonStop reaches out to me. We rescued four
children out of a house as a result of a
cyber tip, and that mother has Boy, she is just incredible.
(38:04):
She reaches out to me monthly and thanks me for
everything that not just me, but my hire team because
it is a team effort. But I get I'm the
contact person, and you know, it's just amazing to have that,
to have that connection, you know, to me, it's just
(38:25):
it means the world to me.
Speaker 1 (38:27):
That makes me so happy to hear for so many reasons,
the people who are listening to this and they think
about all the victims who are left behind and that
you didn't leave them behind. It and also makes me really
happy because I kept in contact with the people who
rescued me and for many years until most of them
are tired. I would send them a birthday cake on
(38:50):
my birthday because I wouldn't have had that birthday without them.
And I've reconnected and I've done trainings with some of them,
which has been a full circle moment. I've spent time
with their kids. They are I am now the age
that they were when I was rescued, which is really
(39:11):
twisty because they seemed like such sure adults and now
I realized like they were just bumbling through life. I
think we just never stopped doing that. But that the
story doesn't end there for the victims, and that support
doesn't end that the one little girl that you talked
about and she had to leave her home and that
(39:33):
Spike was there for her, but that she may have
left her home, but she didn't. She doesn't have to
lose lose support. As you said, a lot of these
children have been hurt by people who are so close
to them and who trusts that who they trust and
who should protect and love them, and they lose that,
and that you can kind of fill in that spot
(39:56):
on whatever level and provide that care because it's it's
it's lonely being a survivor. And the world feels so
scary afterwards. And I have a beautiful family and I'm
so lucky to have a wonderful support and if I didn't,
I don't know where I would be. But I still was,
(40:19):
and still am a little bit afraid of the world
and afraid of trusting people. And to have that person
that you can trust and that you can call and
that you can wish a happy Father's Day, it's just
really beautiful. Thank you for being, for being you and
(40:40):
for not leaving any of these children behind.
Speaker 2 (40:48):
It's an honor and an honor for thirty five years.
I'm very fortunate.
Speaker 1 (40:53):
And it's expensive as far as physical cost, emotional cost,
all of it, and people, I don't think realize that.
I really think a lot of people think, Okay, this
is what I do. I signed up for this job.
I go to work, I have a nine to five,
I come home. Maybe it's a little bad sometimes, but
(41:15):
people don't really know. And this is a true crime podcast.
It is in the true crime category, and I'm really
proud of that, but I also call it real crime
versus I feel like true crime has become this like
more so entertainment, which is fine and I'm a true
crime person. I don't want to say true crime fan.
I always think about like if I was like, I'm
(41:36):
a fan of true crime, that makes sense. If I
say I am a fan of real crime, you would
maybe arrest me. I said in your introduction that Spike
saved your life and that you are a survivor, that
you've carried this weight not only as an officer, but
(41:58):
as a survivor yourself, and that you've shared this publicly,
that you are a survivor. Can you share as much
as you are comfortable sharing about that part of your story?
Speaker 2 (42:09):
Of course? Of course you know, and you know, being
in law enforcement and investigating crimes against shovel specifically sexual
abuse and job sexual exploitation for sixteen years, you know,
I you know, this job really had me. My mental
(42:34):
health wasn't very well. And knowing that part of that
of this job is to you know, see the stuff
we have to see and hear the things that we
see and then have to write a report about what
we were actually watching and listening to, you know, it
took its toll on me. I As much as I
(42:58):
love doing my job, love doing a shop, I love
saving you know, children and but it took its toll
on my on my metal weal being. And so with
that being said, I I started seeking out counseling because
when I thought things couldn't get worse what I was
(43:19):
actually reviewing on my computer screens, it got a lot worse.
And I realized I was starting to self medicate myself
with alcohol. No one in my family is a big
drinker at Lisha. We never have been drinkers. And I
(43:42):
just found myself doing things I normally haven't done. And
you know, my family, my brother specifically, how did an
intervention me one time say, Hey, I can't help to
notice that, you know, since you've been doing this job,
you're you're drinking. I'm worried a little bit more about you,
and you know, and then of course the rest of
(44:04):
my family all stepped up and, you know, maybe realize
that I am actually going down a hole. Maybe I
need to get myself some help, right, And.
Speaker 1 (44:15):
It's not as your jovial self that you're that you're struggling.
They could see that from the outside.
Speaker 2 (44:24):
Well, let me let me just back up a little bit,
because I was Sometimes it was a little hard to
tell if Chad Balow was having a bad day because
I'm not the kind of person that wants to bring
people down. I'm that kind of person who wants to
you know, but if I get quiet, then you know
(44:46):
it's probably something's wrong, right, And so that's pretty much
what happened. And you know, after my family, not just
to my tention, I wroized maybe I I need to
go get some and doing that because of what I've
been experiencing and what I've been witnessing on a computer
screen for so many years is affecting my mental health
(45:10):
and my metal well being. I in fact did do that.
I started going to a psychologist, Alicia. I was going
every Monday at twelve o'clock every week, I mean for
several or several months. Never had I've realized, yes, but
never did I realize what good would have come out
(45:30):
of this, and never realize, you know, how much it
helped me, Because when you're in this line of work,
there's a lot of things that go with it. First
of all, you know, you're seeing things you shouldn't have
to see. Ever, no humans should have to see what
we're seeing or hear what we have to see. But
the didn't have to transcribe that and then you know,
(45:55):
you reliving some of these child victims most horrific moments
of their life with them. And you know, I was
getting to the point where, Okay, I'm going to need
some help. But you think everyone listening, all the listeners
out there, think they got safeguards in place and they're
gonna help you. They're gonna prevent you from going down
(46:18):
this deep hole. I'm going to tell you something. And
there's agencies out there that are allowing people to do
the job I did, and they're not actually helping us
with our mental health and our mental well being. And
I'm ashamed to say that. And you know what, and
I don't And I'm not upset at agencies. I'm not.
(46:41):
Everyday life gets in the way. Everyone's doing their thing,
but I think there's got to be check the balances.
And I find that there's that wasn't being done. It
wasn't being done. In the sixteen years that I did that, Alisha,
not one person ever came to me in my agency
and said, hey, are you doing okay? Are you okay?
(47:02):
Sixteen years of looking at child sexual res material.
Speaker 1 (47:05):
Nobody ever, never if you're involved in a shooting or anything,
you have to go to therapy and they require you
to do things, but they're not asking you about this.
I always think that you are also a victim of
the material that you have to see against your will.
(47:27):
You have to see it, but you're still a victim
of it, and it still has to impact you. There
has to be, like you said, checks and balances, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (47:37):
Right, and there are. They have policies in place, but
you'll be surprised to know that agencies are following your
own policies when it comes to dealing with Internet crimes
against Children's Task Force investigators, and it's shameful. And then
and then you have the other side of the of
the coin where you have guys say I'm okay, I'm okay,
(47:59):
I'm really okay. That's all bullshit. You're not okay. You
are not okay. You know. I used to try to
tell myself that. I used to say that to myself,
I'm gonna be okay. I'm a big guy, I'm a
strong guy. I'm gonna be all right. Let me tell
you something that's bullshit. I wasn't okay. I was not okay.
(48:20):
I'll never forget the night I had a breakdown at
a neighbor's house party, and I just totally lost it.
I just totally lost it. And there was a police
officer there who was a friend, a good friend, and
he's like, I'll never forget him, saying, you need to
get out of that line of work or it's gonna
(48:41):
kill you. You need to get yourself some help, you know,
And and it just resonated with me, with my family
telling me everything that's going on, having that breakdown, I'm like,
I need to get help, and you know, so that
big tough cop and oh, we're gonna be okay, you
know what again, bullshit, we need to get help. Every
(49:03):
investigator out there, do not be that person. I'm telling you.
I was that person. I'm telling you I was going
at a place where I don't know if I was ever
going to come out of it. And when you get
to that point, sometimes it's too late. So I highly
recommend them getting help. And hence my story being a survivor, right,
(49:27):
so I go get help, and out of that of
not telling anyone in over forty years that I was
sexually abused by a step parent, it changed my life.
(49:58):
Another huge moment in my life that I finally got
some burden off my shoulder. And I say the burden
because it would. I always thought about it. And when
I talk about this, and let's not forget I'm a
detective who investigates crimes against children, specifically sexual abuse and
(50:20):
child sexual exploitation. Think about that for one second. Who
am I ever gonna How could I ever talk about this?
I was always afraid that if I went to get help.
First of all, they're gonna say there's something wrong. Maybe
you can't do this job anymore. And now my livelihood's gone, right,
Like I have no livelihood. So as a cop, we
(50:41):
have to think like that, right, Oh, if I gotta
go see Colls, They're gonna think there's something wrong with me.
We gotta put him on leave. You gotta go who
you know? As cops, that's first thing we think they're
taking my gun and badge. And then once you get
past that, like I did, I go and get this help,
and then to only find out that me going there
(51:03):
helped me disclose to my psychologists. The only person, the
first person ever to know that I was a survivor
of sexual abuse was her. And I can't begin to
tell you how great that felt. After I was done.
I felt so relieved. I was worried because and I
(51:26):
told her this that day. I'll never forget her telling
her this story. I said, I can never really talk
to my family about this or anyone else. I don't
want people to know. I don't ever want it to
get out because I used to think, if I'm gonna
I'm taking trials with these interviews, they're taking trials denying me.
Get all this time. I'm me a next to a
child victim. I'm one of the next witnesses that's gonna
(51:50):
cibstantiate what that child survivor told me and relate to me.
And I'm putting everything together. There's a defense turning on
the other side of that table, just waiting to come
at me with whatever they got to try to help
their client get off of whatever they did. Right, So
you don't think.
Speaker 1 (52:08):
They weaponize it, Oh my goodness.
Speaker 2 (52:10):
Well, and that's what that But as a cop, that's
how I had to think. You understand, like I had
to worry that if I ever came out publicly and
said I'm a you know, a survivor of sexual abuse
as a child, They're gonna just say, oh, is it
a true detective value that you have nothing. You are,
(52:31):
you are had you house to get these guys because
you were victimized, you know. And I know people listening
to this might say that's the most observed thing, But
let me just tell you something that's bullshit too, because
we think like that we're cops, and that's what I
had to think. I had to worry about stupid shit
like that and not like and it's crazy. So amongst
(52:54):
all the stuff that was going on in my life now,
I had that that was always in my in my
mind and more so in my heart because I carried it,
never told anyone, and so here I am dealing with
this now, right, And I can tell you after that.
(53:17):
I remember my brother and I we we had a
family dinner. We were all out at a family local
restaurant and we were all out of It was a
beautiful summer day and my family were all together and
we're all hanging out and everyone left. My brother said,
he why don't you stay behind? And I'm like, yeah, sure, sure,
let's stay down. We'll just we'll chat it out. I'm like, okay,
(53:40):
we're just gonna talk and just be brothers. And you know,
all of a sudden within minutes after everyone left, and
you know, we're sitting there. My brother, I could just
tell my space got so serious and I thought, oh
my god, what's wrong? Like I could tell something was
wrong immediately. So he said, I I asked you a question,
(54:02):
and I go yes, he goes, yes, I go yes,
he goes, I didn't ask a question, and I it
was the weirdest moment because now I know, just by
(54:29):
his face and by what he was saying, and he
was trying to purr, was hey, you know, did John
ever touch you? And my answer was yes. And when
he said when I said yes, and he didn't asked
the question, and I told him I knew what he
(54:50):
was referring to my brother, it seemed like the life
came out of him because he felt like he didn't
protect me, and because you know, obviously he was also
a part of that abuse, and he felt he was
(55:14):
going to take that and so that it would never
happen to me. And my brother used to always be
like tough on me about sleeping downstairs. Don't ever fall
asleep on the couch downstairs, Never fall asleep. He'd lose
his mind, he'd flipped out on me. He'd met, and
(55:37):
I can never understand why he yelled at me, like
I thought he was losing his mind. And all the
time think about this, how many years later on how
thinking he was telling me he's trying to save me,
he was trying to see me the whole time. And
I'm like, you've got to be kidding me, you know.
So I'm like, oh my god, it was just it's
(56:00):
just a moment, you know, that we shared together that
we were both survivors of that.
Speaker 1 (56:10):
Perpetrator and he was protecting you all that time, and.
Speaker 2 (56:19):
You know, it's just it's just crazy. It's crazy to
think about that, and you know, it feels good to
be able to talk about it, not to be embarrassed
about it. You know, again, I was ashamed, right, I mean,
(56:39):
I had every sign that survivors have when I you know,
and I'm investigating these crimes, I'm dealing with these people
on a daily basis. I can. They had no idea
how much I can relate to what they were telling
in some of the stories that they were telling. Uh,
you know, and I've never shared this before. I remember
(57:08):
dealing with a male victim and telling him that I
was a victim of sexual abuse, and it was just
(57:29):
him and I have the kitchen cable, and he was
very luck to tell me what happened to him. And
after talking to him and telling him, I understand how
he feels on what he's going through and what what
(57:50):
it means to be a guy and for what people
might think. And you know, he finally actually disclosed to
me what actually happened to him, you know, And you know,
I think about I go back, I think about something
bad happened to me, and I wasn't using it, but
(58:13):
I wanted him to know that I know exactly what
you're going through. You know, when I talked to females
that have been sexually abused, I don't know what they
went through, right, but I know what he went through.
I know what it's like. I know what's going through
his mind. So for me, it was a defining moment,
(58:35):
like I can actually help people if I'm not afraid
to talk about it. And you know, but it took
years after that, It took years. It took many many
years because I was always worried about my job and
what these people, you know, are gonna think on the
(58:55):
defense side or outside, you know. So but yeah, it's tough.
It's just an overall tough job, you know. So you know,
all this comes back to how Spike saved my life, right,
Like I wrote an article about how Spike wrote my
(59:16):
you know, he saved my life, like, and I was
going through those bad times when I had Spike, and man,
you have no idea how much he means to me,
how much he went through with me when no one
else knew. Spike knew, right, he knew, he knew those
(59:37):
bad days, he knew those you know, times in the
car around just talking to or crying. I'm crying and
he looks at you with those beautiful brown eyes and
telling you, like reassuring things are gonna be okay. You know.
So you know when you read that story that that's
the meaning behind that story, that Spike was.
Speaker 1 (59:56):
There for you when other people couldn't be, and that
he was able to recognize that you were acting different
differently and he didn't and he couldn't ask you the questions.
All he could do was offer you that comfort and
support and love. And what a great great sidekick and
(01:00:19):
a great partner. And just thank you so much for sharing,
for sharing that story and the way that you did,
and You are just so brave, and I'm so sorry
that not only did that happen to you and happened
to your brother, but that when these people commit these crimes,
(01:00:41):
that it doesn't just end. It doesn't just end with
the abuse, that it continues on and on and on
and on for so many years, and that you that
you carried it, and you carried it for so many
different reasons, that you were protecting your job. That there
is this tear riable stigma surrounding this, how it would
(01:01:02):
be used against you by defense attorneys who are trying
to get these horrible people who are abusing children to
not go to prison. It's horrendous, and I'm so sorry
that you had to experience that. And I'm just so grateful.
I'm just so grateful for you, Chaz. I'm so grateful
for your friendship. I'm so lucky to know you and
(01:01:26):
to know Spike and to be a part of this
world with you, And thank you for just all that
you've done in so many ways. And I know that
you've recently retired and you've stepped away from this part
of it, and I have to wonder how that impacts
(01:01:48):
you too, because you are so good at your job
and that differences were being made and children's lives were
being saved and somebody had to take over for your position.
Was that hard for you to step away?
Speaker 2 (01:02:05):
Yeah, that it's always been the hardest thing, Alicia. You know,
it was never a job for me. It was never
ever you know, it was something I I'm going to
tell you, no will ever say I didn't work hard
and I wasn't passionate about the job I did. And
it got to the point where you know, I I
(01:02:27):
would not go on vacations. There are so many things
I wouldn't do because I felt if I stepped away
from my duties, is that leaving a child to be
abused for another week? Why I'm with my family, enjoying
myself and doing things and not helping someone. And you know,
(01:02:51):
people don't realize that not just a statement, it's it's
it's the truth. There's there are a lot more investigators
just like Chaz balloout there who have that same passion
and the same belief and they need to know that
we need to step away once a while. I know
it's not easy, it's hard. It's hard to say that.
(01:03:17):
You know, you can't be that life saving person for
the entire world, even though that we try to be
and I know they're trying to be, but you know,
our mental health is so important, and you know, for
me is an honor to have done the job I've
done and to know that although I retire, I'm still
(01:03:40):
doing something good and I'm still in the good fight.
Helping agency fight child sexual exploitation and helping them and
providing them with the tools they need brings me happiness
knowing although I don't have to look at those material
that material anymore, but just to know that I'm there,
I'm with them, I'm supporting them, and I'm certainly going
(01:04:04):
to be there for them. I will be there. If
they're any investigator that ever is going through this and
you're having that bad day, let me just tell you something.
Reach out contact me. It's very easy to reach out
to me because we're all in this together. And I
admire all the investigators doing the job they're doing that
I did, and you know, I applaud every single one
(01:04:27):
of them because at the end of the day, they
are saving children and we are we are making a
difference in the world, and there's nothing more satisfying than that. Ever,
no matter what we do in life, there's nothing more
satisfying saving a kid and helping them get through a
(01:04:51):
very tough time in their lives. So it's been an honor.
Let's say the least, thank you.
Speaker 3 (01:05:00):
And I know law enforcement.
Speaker 1 (01:05:03):
That it's hard to step away and take that break,
that breather and take time off. When I give my
presentations and I talk to law enforcement, and I always
hope that their commander or the chief or whomever is
in the room that has the power to do this,
I'm like, it's okay, Go ask for a day off.
Speaker 3 (01:05:23):
They're right there.
Speaker 1 (01:05:24):
Go it's okay. And I feel maybe sometimes as a
survivor that maybe even that permission is okay, that you
can step away, that you have to in order to
do this job. You are not You do not have
to victimize yourself and cause yourself so much pain. You
(01:05:49):
have to take care of yourself. No victim wants you
to suffer either, and you cannot do the job if
you are not taking care of your mental and physical health.
I know that law enforcement works out all the time.
They're always at the gym. There's all these physical tests
(01:06:10):
and all these things you have to do that physical
part is so important to keep up. You have to
keep up that mental health part too, especially in this
line of it. And Chaz means that please do reach
out to him. I will put his contact information jazz.
You might get a lot of a lot of messages
from people, but that they'll invite you to their weddings
(01:06:36):
and their graduations. You're gonna be busy.
Speaker 2 (01:06:38):
Oh no.
Speaker 3 (01:06:39):
What the other thing about law enforcement.
Speaker 1 (01:06:43):
Is that you don't ever really retire, like retirement for
you is not a beach and a mye tie. It
is going to another position that does similar work. And
I know you talked a little bit about your position.
Can you tell me a little bit more about your
current position and with our Rescue?
Speaker 2 (01:07:03):
Yes, So my current position is with our Rescue, which
is our mission is to eradicate human trafficking and child
sexual exploitation and actually empower survivors. And my position is
specifically I am the ESD Canine Relationship Manager, where you know,
(01:07:29):
I actually help law enforcement obtain electronics storage detection canines
throughout the United States and to provide them at no
cost or very little cost to that agency so that
they have the tools necessary to find those devices that
are hidden that they're going to miss if they don't
(01:07:50):
have that tool.
Speaker 1 (01:07:51):
But I do want to ask, because I've asked everybody,
and I want to continue to ask this. I think
it's a really important question. Do you think evil is winning?
You've worked in the space for sixteen plus years, You've
seen technology change within that time. Do you think evil
is winning?
Speaker 2 (01:08:09):
Although that technology is always moving faster than law enforcement
to keep up with. I want to say that there's
always more good in the world than evil. So I
will say this. I will say this, there's not enough
(01:08:29):
law enforcement to fight the evil, to keep up with
the evil, is what I'm going to tell you.
Speaker 1 (01:08:37):
That's absolutely true. And you and I we've worked together
on Alicia's Law in Pennsylvania. Maybe by the time that
this launches, we could do a celebration because it has
been years now that we have been working on getting
law enforcement funding and resources through Alicia's Law. And you've
(01:08:57):
come with me to the press conferences and have spoken
and have fought for this alongside me, and so grateful
for your support there, and really hope it passes because
it is so true. There is just there is so
much evil out there. There are so many bad people
out there doing horrible things that we go over in
(01:09:20):
this podcast, and we'll continue to talk about and it
will get worse and the stories are going to be heartbreaking.
But we have to fund the ones who can make
a difference. We have to fund law enforcement, We have
to fund investigators. We have to get these wonderful ESDK
nines in with these different agencies so that everybody has
(01:09:43):
the resources, because it doesn't matter what the community is,
if it's the seemingly safest community in the world or
the most dangerous from the outside. This is happening everywhere,
and it is happening in your community and in your neighborhood,
and we have to make sure that your local law
(01:10:06):
enforcement has the ability to rescue these children and take
these people off the streets. In Chaz, I have thanked
you six million times and I will continue to thank
you because I am just so eternally grateful for the
amazing work that you have done over the years. I
think back to this little boy, you on your big wheel,
(01:10:29):
and like, I really just want you to take a
moment with me. This is very silly, but I want
you to take a moment with me and like, tell him,
tell him a sentence. Tell him what you want him
to know about his journey. Talk to that little boy
on the big wheel.
Speaker 2 (01:10:48):
You did it. I'll say, you did it, and you're
going to keep going. That's what I tell and he's.
Speaker 1 (01:10:57):
Going to be so excited and proud to grow up
to be Chaz Bellow. Chaz, thank you so much for
joining me. Thank you so much for being so open,
and thank you for all the work that you do
and continue to do. I'm honored to know you and
to be your friend, and hopefully we will be celebrating
(01:11:17):
Alicia's law very soon together. Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (01:11:22):
It's been a pleasure. Thank you very much for having me,
and you know I always look forward to seeing you
and working with you. And for sure, Petsyvania, we're going
to pass that. We're going to get Alisia's la past.
Speaker 1 (01:11:33):
And give Spike a little scratch pi the ears for
me and tell him he's a good point.
Speaker 2 (01:11:37):
That's a given.
Speaker 1 (01:11:44):
Thank you so much for tuning in. We really appreciate it.
We'll be releasing new episodes every Thursday. Make sure you
check out our YouTube channel and hit us up on
our social media on at Alicia Cosback Pod for extra
content around each episode, and please remember to subscribe on Apple, Spotify,
or wherever you get your podcasts.
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