Protecting Kids Online: ICAC Investigator Karen O'Connor & Bogey the Digital Detection Dog

How do investigators stay one step ahead of online predators? Alicia Kozak sits down with the D ICAC (Internet Crimes Against Children) investigator Karen O'Connor for a fascinating look inside the fight to protect children from online exploitation. Karen shares how she and her electronic storage detection dog, Bogey, work together to locate hidden phones, hard drives, USB devices, and other digital media that can contain critical evidence in child exploitation cases. She also discusses the realities of investigating these crimes, and the practical steps her and Alicia take to keep kids safer online. 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:06):
Hi am Alicia Kozak, and this is the Alisia kozac Podcast.
If you're new here, welcome and if you're a returning listener,
welcome back. This is the second episode of my show
so Here. We don't do sensational true crime. We talk
about real crime, what actually happens when a child is hurt,
what it takes to fight this, and what it costs
the people who do this work every single day. And

(00:29):
lately I've been thinking a lot about this concept of
sensational true crime because of what's happening online around the
murder of seven year old Ateni Strand. Athenis Strand was
murdered by a FedEx driver who was dropping off a
Christmas present at her home, and if you've been anywhere
in your social media right now or have looked at
the news, you've probably seen her story. And people are

(00:52):
treating her death like content, like a way to get views,
or like some sort of true crime fandom. And this
happens with so many cases now that hit the news.
And I understand. I understand why people are drawn to
these stories. I understand why they want to read about
them and hear about them and learn, But what I'm
seeing over and over is how quickly that real child

(01:14):
and the real family's needs for privacy and dignity get
pushed into the background. Through my work and just my
life experience, I've spent years walking alongside families like Athenas
as they're grieving and they're trying to survive the unthinkable
hell that they're in. What I've learned from my own
story and from stories like this is that almost everybody

(01:37):
will share words of sympathy, and they're so open with
saying that they're so sorry that this happened. But when
it comes to actually respecting what the family is asking for,
which is so often privacy in respect, it often just
gets thrown out the window. I believe that there's a
difference between sympathy and empathy. So sympathy is a feeling

(01:58):
and empathy is behavior. And that's a big reason why
I wanted to start this podcast diving quickly a little
bit into my own story in my background, and also
why I want to do this podcast is that I'm
a survivor of child abduction and online exploitation. When I
was thirteen, I became the first known case of a
child to be kidnapped by an online predator, and for

(02:21):
more than twenty years, I've worked alongside investigators, prosecutors, digital
forensic experts, and advocates who are on the frontlines, and
they have become some of my closest friends. And their
job it often takes them on a deep dive into hell.
These people, they open the worst files that you can imagine.

(02:44):
They live with these images and videos and stories that
most people couldn't tolerate for even five seconds, and then
they keep getting up and they keep doing it. Anyway,
this podcast is my chance to introduce them to you,
not as a badge or a title, but as human
beings who choose to walk into the dark so kids

(03:05):
don't have to. I said this won't be sensational true crime,
but don't mistake that for steering away from sensitive and
horrifying topics. Give a trigger warning, but I think it's
pretty obvious you are going to hear hard things here.
You're going to hear about child abuse, exploitation, and the
very real impact of online harm. But we're also going

(03:26):
to laugh. We're going to be totally silly. We're going
to share lots of dark humor, and we're going to
talk about courage, friendship, and how they cope. My hope
is that when you finish an episode, you walk away
with the small peak into the scariest part of human nature,
the part that we can't pretend doesn't exist, but that

(03:47):
you also feel hopeful because you know that there are
good people out there who are fighting this battle every day,
and then you understand what it takes for them to
keep going. All right, So let's get into the so too.
Today's guest is one of my dearest, closest friends and
one of the toughest people that I know. Her name

(04:07):
is Karen O'Connor, and she is the director of the
Knox County High Tech Crime Unit in Indiana. Her path
into this work, it's complicated, and it's deeply personal, and
we're going to talk about what it means to do
this job when your own history is all tangled up
in it. And Karen, she wears lots of hats. Her
coworkers they literally call her Kim Possible, and her ring

(04:28):
tone is even the Kim Possible theme song. She also
has a super cute sidekick, canine with a really big attitude,
and his name's Bogie. I met Karen back in Gosh.
I think it was twenty twenty four at a training
and we instantly clicked. She invited me out to Indiana
to speak at a couple schools, and I stayed at
her house, and in what feels like a very short time,

(04:50):
we have actually lived like a whole lifetime of things together.
We've gone on long drives, We've had movie nights, We've
had sight seeing days, We've done lots of FaceTime calls
from the car. We bed full on ugly cries. I
also have a unicorn shaped coffee mug in her kitchen
that nobody else is allowed to use, and she has
literally sent me to the store to pick out wallpaper

(05:10):
for her. But I've also watched her do this work
up close. I've seen the hell that she has to
look at every single day and the toll that it takes.
But I've also seen her come home, be a mom
and love the heck out of her kids, and somehow
she keeps it all going. I've taken care of her dog,

(05:31):
and I've watched those kids while she was out rescuing
a child in a neighboring state. I've seen how fiercely
she protects not only her family, but everybody else's kids.

Speaker 2 (05:40):
Too.

Speaker 1 (05:41):
Karen inspires me constantly every single day, the way that
she keeps showing up in the dark and still finds
room for humor, hope and love. I am so excited
for you to meet her, and I know that she
is just going to inspire you to Karen. Welcome to
the show. So we went over a year of very
official title. What is it that you actually.

Speaker 2 (06:04):
Do, Karen? I come to work and deal with cases
that save lives like little kids. And I don't really
know how to explain it because our unit has so
many different cases. Day to day is pretty different. But
basically we're just the We're the behind the scene evidence

(06:27):
people who just look through everything that nobody would ever
think to look at that you don't even realize is
on your phone. So we're on your computer, we're in
the cloud, just everywhere, just everywhere. It's everywhere, all the
digital things, all the digital things.

Speaker 1 (06:44):
And then you're also all the bread crumbs. And then
you are also kind of a dog mom. I think
earlier you were saying that you're.

Speaker 2 (06:52):
Shoulder glorified Lee shoulder, Yeah, giver of the treats. It's
about it. If you ever look at like pictures of
of us out in the field. It's generally like a
really great picture of Bogie and my feet and like
a leash.

Speaker 1 (07:05):
So I love that. So tell me about Bogey, your
eesd Kde and your partner. How did this happen? Who's Bogee?

Speaker 2 (07:17):
Oh gosh, Bogie's a hot mess, great knine though, great,
great worker. I ended up with Bogey actually kind of
like I ended up here. I just kind of fell
into him. I was at an ICAT conference in Atlanta,
Georgia in twenty two where I met Todd Jordan, who
does the Jordan Canine Detection Center, and all of these

(07:41):
dogs were running around my hotel floor and I was like,
I don't know what's going on, but like.

Speaker 1 (07:45):
Items like the best hotel ever, right.

Speaker 2 (07:47):
Yeah, it was the best. It was like the whole
floor was just dogs and they were just running around
and I was like, I want to pay all those dogs,
like all of them. And so we got to talking.
He told me that they were there for and who
he was. I talked to him about the lab that
I run here and what I do, and I was like, man,
this would be a perfect tool for us. And so

(08:11):
he and I talked a bit about that and then
I met Nicole, who is my handler. I call her
my handler. She works for OI had sponsors. I have
a handler, the handler has a handler. She like tells
me what I can and cannot do. But got a
hold of her. And then that was in I want
to say, maybe June of twenty two, and by November

(08:35):
I was in certification in Nianapolis with Bogie, who talks
like Chewbacca. So his brother was also in that class.
His name is Kahu and he's in Hawaii. The CC
his handler, and we're the only two female handlers in
our class, and we have the noisiest dogs, like they're
just yapping it up in the back. And I just

(09:00):
remember Todd saying I like to give handler's dogs that
match their personalities. And I was like, I feel like
I just got attacked. Or maybe they just really need
good dog moms to teach them how to be obedient.
We're gonna go with that. They just very like loving moms. Yeah,
so that's Bogey.

Speaker 1 (09:22):
Okay, I got to I've got to spend a lot
of time with Bogie. And I think it's funny when
you mention that he is so loud, because one of
my very first experiences which is where I met you
in twenty twenty four, which was the advanced training with
the dogs, and I came up with this idea being
me that I wanted to do a presentation for the

(09:42):
dogs and you and I had just met. We didn't
even really know each other yet. No, and everybody, all
the officers brought their dogs in and had them on
little chairs, and I wanted the dogs to know the
important work that they did, like maybe they wouldn't get it,
but what if they did. I just wanted to thank
the dogs personally, which is such a weird Alicia thing.
And I remember why. I remember think like why did

(10:04):
I ask for this? Like I got up there and
I was like this is kind of embarrassing. But then
I started to talk to the dogs and tell my story,
and Bogie just kept like talking, talking back and talking
is like yeah, yeah, he was just so you had
to take him out like a yeah.

Speaker 2 (10:20):
It was to the point where I like took him
out the back door and I watched from the window.
Yeah he's a mess. Maybe Todd knows what he's doing.
We call him the Todd Father, the dog Father, so
he yeah, maybe something's going on there. It's got a
hidden tie that we're not aware of.

Speaker 1 (10:38):
I've heard that that he has like a questionnaire, and
I would love to know what you put on your questionnaire,
because he.

Speaker 2 (10:45):
Unless you never filled out the questionnaire.

Speaker 1 (10:48):
You didn't. He just matched up like personality wise.

Speaker 2 (10:51):
We hung out at conference for that evening and I
like sat there and got to know about what he did,
and we talked about what I did, and he was like, yeah, yeah,
this is this is good.

Speaker 1 (11:03):
This is your dog.

Speaker 2 (11:03):
We'll talk but yeah.

Speaker 1 (11:04):
But also how amazing that you were like this is
a great tool, and you were able to go to
your agency and your department and say this is a
good tool when they listen to you, and that you
were able to get a resource which is such an
important resource. So tell me about esd knines just a
little bit and what they do, because they are they're
like little superheroes, but they're super magical sniffers. But what

(11:25):
do they actually do too? What's his day?

Speaker 2 (11:27):
Really? Really great life? In general? They live and eat
and sleep with us and work with us. So eesd
knines are electronic storage detection canines and we use them
as a tool to find hidden electronic devices that store
digital data, whether that be in a scene during a

(11:51):
search warrant, we can use them out in public. I
know that you know Spencer. I know you've met Spencer
and his dog, a little precious Laylah.

Speaker 1 (12:02):
She's like, oh without her, her little Golden Retriever and
she doesn't.

Speaker 2 (12:05):
Have any legs, Like she just smelts my heart and
she's so dainty. But anyway, so he works in the
private sector, so uh kind of it's it's it's just
a great tool for us because you know, as humans
and especially as officers, when we go into a search warrant,
we're so overwhelmed anyway. I mean there's a lot going on,

(12:29):
and you're you're you're trying to find everything that you
can't always see what you can't see. So if you've
got a hidden camera in a light socket, or you know,
somebody's sewn a secret pocket into a mattress or a
backpack or things like that, or there's something in the
ceiling tiles, we're not going to We're just not capable

(12:52):
of seeing everything. We're only human, right, So the dogs
are really great about finding those things that we just miss.
I mean, nobody's perfect, and so for us to just
be able to have that extra tool to help us
do our job. It's most commonly the difference between a

(13:13):
case making it and victims seeing justice then not.

Speaker 1 (13:18):
Yeah, I think that's something that a lot of people
don't understand with a search warrant. And I've gone on
the various search warrants with the dogs without the dogs,
and it's been eye opening to me to see how
this really goes down and how you can't look at
everything you really are just a human, and that you're
not going to rip open the couch cushions, you're not
going to take the light sockets out necessarily you can

(13:42):
do that. You also can't just destroy somebody's house and
be like, I think there's something in this cup. It's
mysterious crack. So these dogs are able to stiff that out.
And what I like to say and tell me if
you agree with this, but a case is really is
only as strong as it's evidence. So what these dogs
are able to find is the ability to get these
people convicted. Whereas if that material was hidden, and it's

(14:04):
not hard to hide something like that, I would think
any way, really that's now places.

Speaker 2 (14:12):
And it's just a sim card in general, or a
micros SD is just it's so super tiny, and I
mean they're getting so great at making things to hide
them in that look like normal everyday thing. I mean,
you've seen me train Bogie. He's got a chess piece
and a debit card and something that looks like a

(14:32):
key charm. We've got a quarter. If I was to
hide this SD quarter in a jar of change, like,
you're never gonna I'm never gonna be able to see
that in a coin. So they they have them and
they look like coins, but they just pop out and
it's insane, and it's just it's just gonna get even

(14:55):
more intricate and more disguised as we continue to go on.
And so the dogs are great. They really take a
lot of the guesswork out of do I need to
look there? Or could that be something that we need
to look at, because they're pretty adamant.

Speaker 1 (15:12):
So do you feel more confident when you're leaving a
site that you've searched, that you did all that you
could do because of your dog superhero side kick?

Speaker 2 (15:22):
I would say so, yeah. I feel like I've been
on warrance where I've left and gone, Man, did we
get everything? Did we miss a place? Was there a
hidden compartment. So to be able to go in and
sweep an area with a dog and see them not
indicate on something that we would maybe question. I trust
my dog, so if he's telling me there's nothing there,

(15:43):
there's nothing there that, Yeah, I would say it makes
everybody feel kind of better about it when we leave,
to know that we did the most thorough job that
we could while we were there, right.

Speaker 1 (15:54):
Because lives are in the balance, and it really speaks
to how the links that these people are willing to
go to to hide these various devices, and they would
hide what has the worst content. I would say, So
that's that's incredible that you get to have that resource,

(16:15):
and that there's more and more of these popping up
all over the country. And I'm honored to have Kozak,
who is an e SDK nine. Unfortunately he had recently passed,
but he was in Wisconsin and he was named after me,
and his handler is incredible and he has he's really
saved lives and it's it's really beautiful that we're able

(16:38):
to use so many different kinds of tools, and these
big fluffy ones are some of my favorite. I can
see how when probably you walk into anywhere with in
a room with Bogee, people come up to the dog
and not you. And I've just kind of done the

(16:59):
same thing where I'm like, Karen, tell everybody that Bookie
tell everybody about that. So let's let's talk about Karen.
And it kind of makes it thinking, like so growing
up and my mom going and managing my speaking engagements
and helping me sett all this up I had. We
actually got our business cards and mine had like a

(17:19):
title and hers just said Alicia's mom. And so I feel,
is that that's kind of you, right, Karen? Yeah, Bookie's
Boogie's handler, And I see that even in like your email, right,
that's your signature partially, but you're so much more obviously,
and I have gotten to know you so well. You

(17:40):
have become truly one of my best friends. I've stayed
at your house for quite a while. Yeah, I've been
at your house when you went off to go rescue
a young girl and you stroll back in at eight
a m exhausted And we'll go into that story in
a little bit. Is it such an important story to tell?

(18:02):
But how did you get here? Like? What is what is?
What is Karen's journey? Did you think that this is
something that you were going to do as a kid.
Is it something you dreamed about? Is it something that
people would say, Oh, that's what Karen's going to go.
She's going to go be a cop? Like, how did you?
How'd you get here?

Speaker 2 (18:21):
Oh gosh, if you would have asked me five years ago,
if I would have been in law enforcement, and I
probably would have looked at you like you were crazy.
That I had an opportunity from an old student to
come in and work in the lab and just kind
of assist with what they were doing here and ended
up really falling in love with with what I do

(18:43):
and what it stands for. So No, as a child,
I did not think that I was going to be
actually that I was gonna be an occupational therapist. But
that didn't happen either.

Speaker 1 (18:52):
So, and you've lived several lives, You've had different career
paths that you've gone down, and you've landed here and
have stayed here. But what were you doing? What were
you doing before this? What are a couple of those
different journeys that you've been on?

Speaker 2 (19:09):
Oh gosh, before this, I was in pharmacy for thirteen
years and that took me down a lot of pathways.
I've worked in retail and hospital and the end of
my pharmacy career, I was teaching pharmacy at a local
university here and that led me to teaching English and China,
which doesn't have anything to do with pharmacy, but gave

(19:32):
me a great opportunity to do that. And then after COVID,
I just kind of took a step back and you know,
reevaluated what I wanted to do and kind of walked
into this.

Speaker 1 (19:48):
You and I have become really close friends, and you've
opened up to me about your childhood and things that
you've experienced as little Karen, before you you were even
in this world, and we talked about it and you
said that you would like to talk about it here.
I'd never want to put you on the spot, but
can you tell me a little bit about what you've

(20:11):
shared with me, about what makes you see this work
kind of from a different perspective?

Speaker 2 (20:20):
I have to say, and this is my personal experience
with other female officers who do the same kind of
work that I do that we've talked and gotten close with,
is typically, you know, you find that female investigators in
the ICAC world have either been a victim themselves as

(20:40):
a child, or they've been really close to a victim,
or in my case both where you know, dealt with
victimization as a child. And then you know, we talked
about when I was fifteen, I found out my dad

(21:01):
went to prison for sexually assaulting a sixteen year old,
so a girl a year older than me at the time,
So that landed him on the lifetime violent sex offender
registry and just basically left me just wondering what is

(21:22):
going on? And is this what the world really is?
And then when you get older and you you know,
you go through lots of therapy. Of course, you know,
you asked me as a child, would I ever have
seen myself in this work? And I said no. But
now that I'm here, I kind of feel like there's
a reason that I am because I can see that
from multiple angles. I can see it as you know,

(21:46):
a victim who never got justice, and I can see
it as the daughter of a perpetrator and how that
kind of feels and looks like and how you process that.
But then I also see it as longforced and you know,
I have kids in my own now and get to
look at that from the lens of a mother and
a parent. So it's I think that that when you

(22:10):
have life experiences like that and then you do the
work that I do, I think that brings a push
of passion that some investigators just don't have. So you
got thrown into I CAAC and you were low man
on the totem pole, and this is where you got
stuck in investigations, and then you're like, this is my
life now, Like I'm just looking at all these images

(22:30):
all day and trying to figure out what's going on.
And it's I think if you have almost a personal
interest or something that drives you to come to work
every day like I do. I mean you've seen me.
You've seen me on some tired days. I am not

(22:54):
the only officer or investigator that gets up every day
and puts my shoes on and walks out the door
or and it's just like all right, I'm gonna go
get this cup of coffee another day. And you you know,
I remember you asking me one time, like do I
feel like the work I do makes a difference? And

(23:16):
we talked about David and Goliath and how you know,
as investigators, especially in this niche of investigations, that we're in.
I feel like we're just David throwing little pebbles at
the evil that is Goliath. And there's just not enough
of us for the amount of ICAC cases that are

(23:40):
out there, and not even just ICAC, I mean, I
CAC is very specific and you know that, and so
just child abuse and sexual assault and just whatever kind
of there's just not enough of us. There's not and
so you deal with lack of funding, and you deal

(24:01):
with lack of mental health care and breaks because there
aren't enough of us. I mean, you've been here. There's
two investigators in this unit, and we run thirteen counties
that goes over five hundred thousand people. And we assist
other agencies too, so it's I mean, we are an

(24:24):
assisting agency, and so we work with you know, local, state,
and federal levels, and they're all saying the same thing.
There's not enough manpower. It changes so fast. AI is
going to take us out of the water, essentially. It's
growing so fast. So you know, I just feel like,

(24:47):
personally as an investigator, and I'm not trying to speak
for anybody else, my life experience has definitely impact the
way that I come in to work every day and
push through things in hard days. But it makes as
wins so much better. You know, I really feel like
that little girl and you finally got one for the team, Like, hey, yeah,

(25:07):
I got it. So I would say that, you know,
if you if you've been through it and you've lived
that life, or you've been with somebody or are close
to somebody. I mean, you and I are really close.
Just your story was way worse than mine, but we
still see the same scars and here we are what

(25:28):
forever ago, Yeah, just hanging out talking about it.

Speaker 3 (25:35):
Yeah, here we are right here we are, And the
turnover in in this work is.

Speaker 1 (25:48):
Is really high, like you've been here for a while.
People don't stay that long right now.

Speaker 2 (25:53):
Typically officers who specialize in in icaic or see SAM cases,
I would say the average is to two and a
half years in that department before they request, you know,
to move to a different department of investigations like homicide
or narcotics. It's it takes a lot out of you
to come to work every day and continue to just

(26:16):
put yourself in front of this. But there are some
really great people that I've known that have done it
for years. You've met them. I mean, you've got gosh,
how long has Darren been doing internet crimes and indie
and then retired and still does it with Hunter, Like
he just went to a different department. And so some
people just really have a passion for what they do

(26:40):
and they see the need. So you're gonna have that
handful that kind of stick around for the long haul.

Speaker 1 (26:49):
Yeah, and you've seen technology grow and change in this
world really developed, and you talk about going into work,
So what does that typical work day look like for you?

Speaker 2 (27:01):
Like, you get up.

Speaker 1 (27:02):
In the morning. I've seen it, because I've stayed at
your house. I've seen you get up. I've seen you
make me very all.

Speaker 2 (27:07):
Three of my children ready for school.

Speaker 1 (27:10):
And then and then you know, you make a mean
cup of coffee.

Speaker 2 (27:14):
I don't know what you do, but it's great special media.
It's the cup. It's the Unicorn cup.

Speaker 1 (27:21):
What is it? The Unicorn cup is the leasiest cup.

Speaker 2 (27:24):
Nobody uses it. Now, it's your cup, my cup.

Speaker 1 (27:27):
Nobody judges.

Speaker 2 (27:28):
Yeah, no, oh gosh, I feel like this is probably
the least of my favorite questions. It's it's actually one
of the questions I hate the worst that people ask me,
Like what your typical day like because it's never the same.
I'm sorry, no, it's it's fine, but it's just hard
to explain, like with the roles that we play, especially
with me as a director, so I have a lot

(27:50):
of administrative duties, but I also am the lead investigator
in our unit, and so if I get called on
to an investigation, I have to stop what I'm doing
and go do that, and then I have Bogie. So
it just depends on what the day brings me. So
I always just tell people, well, I make it to work,

(28:12):
and then I just see where it lands. So yesterday
I got caught out. I was sitting down for an
hour and got called out with Bogie to Evansville for
us Her to warrant with them. And it was a
very long day, but it was rewarding and then I
picked my daughter up and then I went home. So
it's just it's every day is different. Some weeks are crazy,

(28:35):
some weeks are pretty chill back in the lab and
we're just analyzing evidence and writing reports, and then some
weeks were in court. I just to be able to say,
you know, I go to I go to work every
day and I do a B and C it's not
it's not a true tribute to what we do every
day because we just never know. We answer a call

(28:55):
and then we answer the call. So that's probably the
easiest way I can explain it. Like the phone rings,
we answer the call, and that's what we do and
whatever means that that has to happen in So so.

Speaker 1 (29:08):
You definitely can't plan your day. You're not waking up
in the morning and saying, Okay, here's my to do
list and here's what I need to get done, and
this is what I didn't do yesterday, so I get
to do it today. And here's my routine.

Speaker 2 (29:19):
I have a to do list every very often gets
flipped to the next day. I have to put check marks.
I'm like, okay, I'm gonna move this over to tomorrow,
and then when when I get there tomorrow, I focus
on that until something mouse comes up.

Speaker 1 (29:31):
So yeah, and really it's not like a nine to
five position at all. You are always available and on call.

Speaker 2 (29:42):
You've witnessed that I did.

Speaker 1 (29:45):
So the story, it's a great story because I got
to see I got to see that dedication and exhaustion.
I hear about it, but I saw it, I felt it.
I wanted to like tuck you in and like it's okay,

(30:08):
and like make you feel better. So tell the story
of this young girl. So I remember I was at
your house and you were off on an investigation and
looking into this case which we'll talk about, and then
you messaged me and you were like, I'm going to Chicago,
and I thought, and you're based in Indiana, so Chicago

(30:30):
is not super far. So it's it's far, it's far far,
but like, so you're go, I'm going to Chicago. I'm
going to go bring this girl home. And I'm like, oh, okay,
I just thought you'd be home in a couple hours.
And I ended up feeding Bogey that night and staying
up and being like where is she? And we have
we have each other on fine my friends. I like, yeah,

(30:52):
she made it, but she's not coming back yet. So
tell tell the story of this this rescue really that
you did.

Speaker 2 (31:01):
Yeah. So, this particular story was a joint investigation with
a local PD here where a sixteen year old female
ran away with an older man in his twenties to Chicago.
She had met him on Snapchat. They had talked back

(31:22):
and forth, had some gaming interactions, and she had decided
she's in love with this man and he's great for her,
and he's going to come get her and whisker away.
So it took us, I would say, about three to
four hours to identify where she was and then another
two hours to contact any officer on the detective division

(31:47):
in Chicago that not just had the time, but this
the willingness to stop what he was doing. And because
it's Chicago, I can't imagine the case slither to check
into this for us, and we were very lucky to
land on a great detective there who was like, oh, yeah,
sure thing, let me check it out for you. Found

(32:09):
this female, brought her back to their department, in which
the detective that I was working with had to drive
the six hours to Chicago to pick her up and
bring her back to her mom and her cat because
she of course took the cat, so we had to
take the cat. So it was a very interesting write

(32:29):
home with two law enforcement personnel and a cat and
a sixteen year old girl. So but that for us
was a win. I mean, she was found, she was safe.
Looking into the evidence of that case. Had we not

(32:49):
found her, that may not have been the situation because
that individual that came and picked her up was planning
on sharing her with other people he was talking to
on Snapchat. So just the situation that she was in
was not a great one. In summary, thankful that we
were able to find her and go get her and
bring her back, even if it was against her wishes.

(33:12):
Her mom was very excited to see her home. So
that's just kind of one thing that we deal with
here of the many I just social media and teenagers
and the fake illusion of safety.

Speaker 1 (33:30):
I like and appreciate that you had said essentially that
she was unhappy that you found her, because I don't
know if people connect those dots too often that a
lot of kids, when we say that they're rescued, they
don't know that what's happening to them is bad and

(33:50):
that they've been tricked or groomed or lured into it,
and they think that they're doing it willingly and they
want to be there and you are the one who
is actually kidnapping them and take them away. And this
is such a case. But you went and you brought
her back. Even though you were the bad guy in
her story to her at this point, you still did

(34:13):
that because it's obviously the right thing to do, and
you know that this girl is a victim. But it
speaks to something that I really want listeners to hear.
Law enforcement sees kids as victims, even if they don't
see themselves or to them. Are behaving like a victim.

(34:40):
And kids are making so many mistakes where they're sending photos,
they are talking to people, they're meeting people, they are
exploiting themselves. I mean, you talk to me about the
one a group of girls there who how do I
say this carefully, but you can recognize them by their

(35:05):
by the private parts because you have seen it come
across in the office that much. That's something that people
need to know about this world is that kids, kids
are absolutely victims, and they're victims of society. They're being
groomed by society and what they're seeing online and pornography.

Speaker 2 (35:23):
For sure, m h.

Speaker 1 (35:27):
And they're also falling right into it. I've heard of
cases where girls will will have menus where they put
the list of you know, if I take this picture,
then you give me this. Have you seen that?

Speaker 2 (35:46):
Yeah, We've had a couple of cases in our jurisdiction
that do you deal with that, one of which was
multiple instances it was more than one case, like it
happened and then took care of it, and then it
happened again. Same juvenile. But yeah, we see a lot
of that where teams are reaching out to men on

(36:06):
the Internet and saying, oh, you know, if you here's
a list of the things that you can purchase from me,
and whether it be like a live stream or you know,
a photo of a certain pose or a body part
or things like that, and just it's it's the cash
app Venmo. We've had have had cases where men will

(36:30):
send them things to their homes, like vapes. They'll go
buy them vapes and send them to their home. And
so these girls are giving out their addresses these complete
strangers to receive payment for things. And it's just as
a mother, it's terrifying with having a daughter as young
as I do, and yeah, I just don't I don't

(36:52):
think that parents understand that their kids have always had
the Internet. So like my generation, I'm in my forties,
I grew up before, during and after, and so it's
we've always had that sense of stranger danger in the
back of ourda to us as children, but like our

(37:14):
kids don't have that their entire lives. Are on the internet.
That's how they socialize, that's how they make friends. That's
if you're the kid that doesn't fit in at school,
but you you know, you're really good at a game,
and so you have this whole friend group in this game,
and and so that's just how they cope now, and
so they don't sense the danger in it and saying oh, yeah,
I live in such and such town and Kansas and

(37:37):
you know I go to this school, and just giving
out all of these identifiers to locate them. So I
think that parents just are baffled when they find out
that these kids are giving out all this information because
they're like, oh, I would never do that. But we're
in a different time and so you have one hundred

(38:02):
million thousand ways for influencers to show you how to
make money online, and not all of them are great.
So we're really stumbling across that on a daily, daily
time frame here.

Speaker 1 (38:14):
So so many people have stories and people who see
the worst of the worst on a daily basis. You know,
there's no necessarily like a trigger warning for you that's
going to pop up.

Speaker 2 (38:30):
You have to can't.

Speaker 1 (38:32):
You have to keep barreling through with what you do.
And I think that's so brave, and as a survivor,
I love that you said one for the team, And
I just wonder, do you feel like maybe you've gotten
some justice because you've gotten justice for other people? Because
that's how I feel like, that's what drives me. Yeah,
I didn't get this, but I can give it to
somebody else. I can help somebody else going forward.

Speaker 2 (38:52):
Yeah. Absolutely. You know that twenty four hour shift that
we talked about, it was one person. There's one victim,
and I'd do it twenty four hours over again because

(39:12):
what if somebody had done that for me? You know what,
I feel differently about the way that things are now.
And so that's what we tell people that we come
to work and every day is not a win. It's
not a win, but that one win that we get
out of the thirty just cases hanging out there, it

(39:34):
pushes us to keep going because that's what we're here for.
And we know that. You know, if I can just
save one, it makes all five years worth it.

Speaker 1 (39:44):
So you would say, this isn't just a job that
you go and you put on. Everybody calls you Kim Possible,
which I love you put on your Kim Possible utiful
Kim Possible. You do kind of look like an adorable
Kim Possible, but you don't just put on your beautiful
and go do a nine to five like you just
it's always different. It's always this, is always that. But

(40:06):
it's not just it's not just work, it is life.
It is in a passion, like you have so much
driving you to keep doing this every day and it's hard,
and I hate to hear that you don't have the resources.
And I know this very well. One of the big things,
of course I work on, is Alicia's Law, which dedicates

(40:27):
and gets that funding and resources to law enforcement and
ICAT groups who so desperately desperately need it. And it's
currently not in Indiana, so we need to to get
to work on that. Yeah, we're working at it, and
we're working on it, so hopefully it will that'll pass
soon and just give you more more boulders instead of

(40:50):
little pebbles, because you are strong enough to lift that boulder, right,
And that's the thing, Like you have the strength and
the capacity to lift giant boulders, but you're only given pebbles.

Speaker 2 (41:02):
Yeah, we have an amazing every agency an officer that
I worked with in the state across the state of
Indiana is just they're one hundred and twenty percent in
And it's so nice to have teams like that, even
teams that you just meet that day. Like i could
be assisting an agency at North and I've met these
people for the first time and I'm like, let's do it,

(41:23):
and they're like, yeah, let's do it. And you can
just tell that when they go to work every day
they have the same process. It's just one more. If
I can only take care of one, then that makes
it all worth it.

Speaker 1 (41:36):
So it's a quote that I I live by myself,
and I'd love to hear you to say it. And
I see that passion in you, like I've got to
see it personally. I've got to see you drive through it.
I've got to see you cry with exhaustion. You're big

(41:58):
and tough, but I definitely seen the You're tiny and tough,
I should say, but you are very so strong. But
this work is hard, and people say that it's really
one of the hardest jobs that you can possibly do.
The content that you're seeing, the losses that you're experiencing,

(42:19):
the experience also of tech just constantly growing and winning
and not being able to keep up on what the
offenders are doing. And I'm just wondering, what are some
of those coping mechanisms that you have when you're having
one of those really dark days where maybe you have
to go through disgusting, painful material. Maybe even and forgive

(42:43):
me for saying this, but like even of your own
little girl's age, right, that has to that's a spark something.

Speaker 2 (42:53):
Yeah, you know, I feel like there are kinds a
time and those investigations where you're just going on and
on and on through images and images and messages. Then
you just have to turn it off. You gotta turn
it off and you gotta walk away. And I'm very
fortunate to have Bogie because he does give me a

(43:15):
ton of comfort. But I'm also really lucky to have
some really great kids. My kids, two older boys and
a really young daughter. My boys know what I do.
They know what it entails. So if I come home
and I'm like, hey, I just need to just need it,
you can press grab a glass of wine, hang out

(43:38):
with the dog, you know, they get it. And you know,
I hate to say it, but I feel like your
kids can sense that in you, especially my daughter, she
will come up and just Mommy, let's let's watch a
movie and snuggle. And there's just something better than like

(43:58):
a whole like snug puddle of like dogs and kids,
and you like, I don't care what I'm watching. We
could watch Is It Cake? Fifty times because you know,
I've seen that a thousand times. I could probably recite
every show because it's one of her favorite shows. And
she's like, let's watch is It Cake? I'm like, sure,
let's let's get my mind off of what it's been

(44:20):
on all day. And so we'll binge watches It Cake
for hours. So you just you really just have to
learn to step away and you know, go to things
that you truly love and bring you peace and comfort.
And it's also a really good reminder of why you're
doing it for me anyway. But other than those babies, Yeah,

(44:47):
you gotta protect those babies. Like if not me, then
who who else? Who's better gonna protect my kids than me?
And they're dad? But right, it's kind of just how
you just kind of step away sometimes take a day off.

(45:07):
You know, I tell my team all the time, I
know what we do is an easy If you ever
get to a point where you need a few days off,
you let me know and I won't ask questions. Take
a few days and they do, and I'm thankful that
they do it, and thankful that they trust me to
be like, hey, I know you said to take a
couple of days off, because I know that's not always

(45:29):
the atmosphere in some places, but like we truly, I
truly strive to make sure that my team doesn't get
burned out. So yeah, you need a couple of days off,
I got it. If I need a couple of days off,
you got it. I mean, you know, I had a
month of medical leave here recently, and I have the

(45:50):
best team here, like zero worries. So now that I'm back,
I'm like, hey, do you need some days off? Because
I know it's been a minute and I kind of
died like so, but now, just having a good team
and knowing when to step away, I think is the
best and what you need to do, whether it be

(46:12):
you know, go for a long car ride or just
go to the gym.

Speaker 1 (46:17):
Or FaceTime and and be like I have the worst day.

Speaker 2 (46:25):
We're just tynging out with my family. So it makes
it really nice when I go home.

Speaker 1 (46:31):
So the Board of kink is a coping mechanism for
your office, right.

Speaker 2 (46:36):
We'll call it that. It's a it's a way to
laugh at things that we are just like completely thrown
off by. So we do digital forensics here and a
lot of the evidence and things that we search. So
we see Google searches and you know, just phrases that
people are searching for, and they just sometimes are just

(46:57):
so out of this world. You know, one day, we've
seen a lot. There's not a lot we haven't seen.
But if it makes the kink of the day board,
that's that's pretty bizarre. So you saw the one we
had that's all from one case when you go in

(47:20):
typically when you go in there, like they're not they're
all just very random. It's like a conglomeration of craziest
Google search. I saw that today. That just kind of
threw me for a loop. But no, today, it's today
was a bad day. It was a bad day to
pick it because it's just a place.

Speaker 1 (47:38):
On the board right now.

Speaker 2 (47:40):
Yeah, I think in the past. Yeah, So I went
in there this morning when you asked me to take
a picture.

Speaker 1 (47:48):
Okay, I'm just gonna read one of them. So I
have it up on my screen there too, book, I
gotta do it. They're awful because they're all having to
do with a diaper, an adult baby and things like that.
But one of them is like essentially tied up in
a diaper and I don't want to say it, but
made to go to the bathroom tied up and locked

(48:11):
in a high chair. And I do have to ask
them because I'm reading these in their utterly heartbreaking to
think if that is somebody searching for Sea Sam or
if it's their own adult kink. And I want to
be careful not to shame on here, though some things
are done worth raising an eyebrow at, and somebody is.

Speaker 2 (48:35):
Not really allowed to talk about that because it is
and like it. You can think about. The types of
searches that you're reading are very similar in adults seeking
sea SAM material. So it's not the first time we've

(49:00):
had the diaper kink in relation to a CESAM investigation here,
But typically when we see searches like that, it's specifically
either somebody who is on the line of starting to
look for those things online and so they're just kind

(49:22):
of meandering into the vaguely legal. I don't is that
a good way to explain it, like like I'm fantasy,
I'm interested to see if I'm interested in this, and
then sometimes we see those later on in cases go
even further into the CESAM world. And so I think
it typically starts out as I, and I again can't

(49:43):
speak for everybody because I don't know. Yeah, I don't know.
It's it's one of the most bizarre ones we've had
for a while. I can definitely say that.

Speaker 1 (50:00):
And it's so horrifying to know that right like in
another room that's where that is, and that this is
so dark that I can't share it and don't even
want to read it out loud. So I would say
that sometimes it's a coping mechanism and sometimes it is
a coping mechodism of just like WTF, we need to

(50:23):
write this down, Like I need to get.

Speaker 2 (50:24):
This out of my It's like the shock factor. It's
like what am I reading right now? And so and
it's also kind of a reminder because typically we're all
working on different cases at the same time, and it's like,
here's what I dealt with today, Like it's kind of
a venting board to just keep each other on the
same track that like, wow, I had a really crazy

(50:46):
case today, and then I'm like, I also had a
really crazy case thing, And so it's it's a it's
a place for us to just kind of share our
experiences within cases and what we're all seeing. And sometimes
I'll walk in and I haven't been here all day,
and I'm just like, what has been going on in here?

(51:06):
And it's a way for us to I don't even
know how to explain it. It's a dark humor. It's
in a lot. A lot of people in law enforcement,
as you have come across and talked to, will tell
you that, you know, we in order to deal with

(51:28):
some of the really bad things. It's almost kind of
like saying you have to laugh at yourself sometimes, like
sometimes we just have to be like what is going on?
Like what is this? This can't be real, like, you know.
So it's just as a team for for us to
be able to all be like, Okay, we're all dealing

(51:50):
with crazy today. So we're all on the crazy train together.
Here's our train of crazy, and here's what I dealt
with today, and here's what he dealt with today, and
it's it's I don't know. We have a sign on
the door and it's like it's basically like color stages

(52:11):
and then there's a dumpster fire right at the top.
It's like a picture of the dumpster fire emoji and
we move it and that way when officers who are
coming to like talk to us about cases, no, they know,
is it like are we in deaf Con one, deaf
Con two? Like how busy are they in the last?

Speaker 1 (52:33):
Like how likely there's.

Speaker 2 (52:36):
Oh gosh, yeah, And so they'll come up and like
if the arrow is on red but it's like not
quite towards dumpster fire, they know they're still safe. But
if it's at dumpster fire and the door's closed, like
to leave us alone, man like, because I mean, we
have so many agencies that we work for that it's
just we could have five phones come in one week,

(53:00):
and we could have the ATF bring us thirty one
in a day. So we are just like, okay, the
death con Radar, that's what we call it.

Speaker 1 (53:11):
It just came to me, death quad Rader. What what
level are we at before?

Speaker 2 (53:17):
N are we at right now? Yeah? Are we good?
Is it safe? Can we proceed? Do we enter? Like? Yeah,
That's it's funny because sometimes it's on Yeah, sometimes it'll
be on like the dumpster fire, and the guys will
shut the door and we have we're in an old
post office, so like we have the mail slots and
all of our office doores. People will just like shove

(53:37):
snacks in there, or like a.

Speaker 1 (53:40):
Bad day, here's a cookie.

Speaker 2 (53:45):
I like, you have a cupcake.

Speaker 1 (53:48):
And you've had really hard days, of course, but you've
also had so many wins. I know that what I
asked you about your winds. When we hang out, like
you are like we really always we always get our mark,
like we're good at what we do here.

Speaker 2 (54:04):
And we have a great team, and you really do.

Speaker 1 (54:08):
And I've got to meet and work with them. And
you know, we've known each other for not as long
as I thought we did. I thought we've known each
other for many many years. It's been like two years.
But two years they are wonderful too, wonderful years. But
one of the things that you had me come do,
and this is the first time I stayed at your

(54:29):
house that I remember being like, oh, I'm staying at
her house and what's this going to be like? And
I don't know really her all that well, but she
is long for like all these things going through my
head and we had become really good friends. But the
reason that you had brought me there is to speak
in schools. And I was speaking to entire school districts.
I was having exhausting days where you're like feeding me

(54:51):
stacks and carrying me through. And one of the things
that I require in my presentations is to have a
counselor and a police officer in the rooms that these
kids can get help right away. And you were the
police officer who was in the room, so you had
me come speak in the schools. You speak in schools.

(55:13):
Why did you want me to come talk to the
students after you had had a conversation with them.

Speaker 2 (55:19):
There's such a difference in the way that students listen
and take in what law enforcement like we can go
in and talk about internet safety all day long. That
they see us all the time, they know who we are.
They've got resource officers in the school, and it almost
becomes like a mono tone, like nagging in the background.

(55:43):
I feel like like the Charlie Yeah, it's like Charlie
Ram's teacher is just like wan wank wank wong, stay
off the internet, be careful, you know, don't share your
data after drugs, all the things don't do drugs, like
don't send nudes, don't talk to people you don't know,

(56:04):
and let them know where you live. They've heard it
so many times in the repetition and they've just they've
tuned us out. And so to be able to put
somebody who's been through what you've been through in front
of them in a completely just different atmosphere. One that

(56:25):
the story is extremely interesting, so you already captivated them
by that, but then they're like, oh, like she really
went through this and that could be me, Like you
never thought that would have been you. And so to
give them kind of a view from the other side
of the window. Hey, if you know, investigator is going

(56:49):
to sit here and say don't do these things, but like,
I can't sit here and be like I did this
one time and this is what happened to me, and
I never would have thought that would have happened, and
I'm still here to tell about it. Some people aren't
like it clicks. It hits a different different level with them,
and you can see it when you talk to them,

(57:10):
and we sit there and have to tell teachers and
counselors that they're just going to have to let these
students be late for class because they're, you know, waiting
to talk to you. I feel like the person at
the bar, but the bouncer with like the little rope
at the end of your presentations, because I'm just like, okay, next, next.
But I love it. I love that kids feel comfortable

(57:32):
enough after that to come down and talk to you,
because they're not doing that to us. So something is
different between you know, law enforcement that they see all
the time. They're tired of hearing about. If I didn't
have bogie, they won't even look at me. They just
want the dog. And I'm fine with that if that's
what it takes for me to get into that classroom

(57:53):
and for people to pay attention to what I'm saying. Right,
I'll bring the dog every day. But I'm not you.
You know, I've not been on Oprah and what's that
YouTuber is always like, oh my god, yeah, I'm still
to this day, sorry, Anthony Patilla, I have no idea

(58:13):
who this guy is. My kids do mm hmm. And
so that's you're You're more in their world than we are.
Where they see us as Let's keep them on that
side of the room. While we are in our little
bubble because that they're just here to do that stuff

(58:35):
and we don't. We don't want to hear it anymore,
so to hear it from somebody who has actually happened
to that survived it, and that has dedicated our life
to educating children about internet safety and like what can
really happen and what does happen And to sit here
and go, you know, you can say it's not gonna
happen to me, but I'm living through right in front

(58:58):
of you. It happened to me. Yeah, So you know,
I think it's crazy because these students are like, oh, no,
that only happens to such and such type of people.
Look at your family, Like you tell the story and
you're like, oh, we were eating dinner and like we
always have dessert. And I'm like, I can't sit here

(59:19):
and think about a time that I really sat down
and ate dinner with my family as a child at
that age, Like it just didn't happen. That wasn't the dynamic.
So I think when kids hear that, they're like, oh, okay.

Speaker 1 (59:34):
I think they hear that she had a lot of
protective factors and that is the kind of kid that
this shouldn't have happened to because I had.

Speaker 2 (59:43):
A stereotypical like, yeah, right, not.

Speaker 1 (59:46):
That I was perfect and had a perfect, perfect childhood,
but no, it was close. And yeah, I've had a
number of presentations, but one that really stuck out to me.
I was speaking out at school for troubled girls who's
been in and out of the justice system, and this
girl started crying her eyeballs out, and she was like,

(01:00:07):
if this could happen, like if she if this could
happen to her. I could see how easily this could
happen to me and why all of this happened, And
it was a really eye opening moment. But you have
seen me present so so many times, and we have
more coming up. You have charged the devices and gotten
the things and got me the stacks and sat with

(01:00:28):
me as I talked with students for over half an hour. Afterwards,
we had the young girl who would run out of
the room because she had realized when I was talking
about grooming that she had been groomed, and she had
no idea that that was even happening. When I talked
to her afterwards, she had actually told me that when
she was younger, her dad's friend had started to groom her.

(01:00:52):
She now realizes he proposed to her married her, and she,
in her mind, has been having a consensual sexual relation
with him for years and she had no idea that
that was even something that was not acceptable and that
she was a victim. So these conversations is it's so

(01:01:12):
important to talk to kids, and they really do come
up afterwards, and it's like you do have to be
a bouncer because they do have so many disclosures. But
we did have one disclosure that is a story that
I tell in almost every single presentation because it really
speaks to what kids are going through and how one
child coming forward can really make an impact. So I'll

(01:01:37):
start the story off. But I had given my presentation
and this adorable young girl comes up to me. She's
like fifteen, I think, and she handed me her phone
and she was like, I'm being cyberstocked and she showed
me all these awful messages and I was like, Okay,
this is this is this is real. We need to
do something about this.

Speaker 3 (01:01:55):
Ha Hu.

Speaker 1 (01:01:55):
I have Karen here, she can so talk to her.
And at first she's like, oh, I don't know. I
just said I'm a little nervous, and so I get
her to agree, which is something that I do. I
don't say you have to go talk to this person,
but I sit with them until they make that choice themselves,
and it will be half hour hours sometimes, but she agrees.

(01:02:16):
She comes up to you and she tells you the story,
and it leads to this investigation. And I had no
idea where this went, but it's wild. Can you tell
that story?

Speaker 2 (01:02:25):
So that investigation led us all the way to Florida
to a suspect who knew for us. The detective that
I worked with on this case and I were just
baffled at the outcome of this. But essentially, an individual
male who resided in Florida was reaching out to girls

(01:02:51):
age fourteen fifteen who were showing signs of like mental
health or you know, being very unhappy in their situations
online and he would say, oh, I dealt with mental
health too, like if you ever need a friend, we
can talk, which then you're devious, just very manipulative. Let

(01:03:11):
me be here for you. And so he would talk
to these girls and then you know, he would we
talked about the snapchat thing where he would be like,
I want to be on your my my eas only,
and you have to keep your location on on your
snap and I need to know where all of these
things are. And to the point where like he was
making these girls record themselves, teaching you how to do

(01:03:39):
CPR while singing, staying alive, and he would be like,
roll up your sleeves and act like you're really hot
while you're doing compressions or something like that. And you know,
none of this was for the purpose of sexual gratification.
When interviewing him, realized that he just liked the feeling

(01:04:02):
of being in control, and he figured out that he
could control these girls who were already in a fragile
mental state. And then when they turned their location off
or they blocked him, he would go through one of
his other accounts, because we talked he had multiple accounts,

(01:04:22):
and he would go in there and get back to him.
And that's essentially what he was doing to our victim
that came and spoke to you, was had her on
multiple platforms, kept kept creeping in, was like, hey, like
I hope your boyfriend breaks up with you, and you know,
just very mean things all the way to the point

(01:04:43):
of some of his victims that we'd found, he was threatening,
you know, to come and kill their families.

Speaker 1 (01:04:51):
Or and he knew where they all were, right.

Speaker 2 (01:04:55):
So look at their windows. He's like, you continue location off,
it's finer. Do you know where you live? I'll just
come look in your window. If you're not going to
show me your private snapchats. It was crazy. So we
were able to, through a lot of open source and
social media investigations, figure out where he was located in

(01:05:17):
Florida and identify him. We brought him up here for
her case, charged him. He did his time here and
then went back. But we also discovered I want to say,
forty three to forty eight other victims that were nationwide
of just these poor girls that this one person was

(01:05:41):
just ruining their lives to the point of some of
these girls were dare I say suicidal at some point
because they were just like, I don't know what else
to do. I can't get this guy to leave me alone.
And so it's scary to think that, you know, we've
got fourteen fifteen year old children to teenagers, but they're

(01:06:07):
still very young dealing with this. They are. And you know,
I remember when she was speaking to you, going well,
I told my mom and dad about it, but they
really didn't know how to handle it, so they just
told me to ignore it. Well, you can only ignore
so much when you're fourteen, fifteen years old and your
whole entire she blocked him, Yeah, and she would block

(01:06:30):
and he would find her again.

Speaker 1 (01:06:33):
She did everything she thought she was supposed to do.

Speaker 2 (01:06:36):
Yeah, yeah she did. She was really great. And her
parents even were like, just block him, you know, don't
communicate with him anymore. So it's just it's crazy what
these kids are dealing with. And like I said, it's

(01:06:56):
one guy had forty eight victims, same thing across the platform,
same threats. Samemo wasn't about sexual gratification but about control
and a lot of that, you know, learning about him,
how to do with his past. That it just disaffles me.

(01:07:18):
He was I don't want to say, maybe twenty early twenties,
I believe.

Speaker 1 (01:07:28):
Was he setting photos back and forth to them too?
Did it seem like they were having a relationship with
him at first?

Speaker 2 (01:07:34):
Now he was very much just conversation and just befriending
and grooming them and making him feel them feel like
he was there for them to help them through their
their mental health situation.

Speaker 1 (01:07:45):
And then because he was targeting these girls, Yeah, struggling readily,
like that was his his profiles kind of whole persona
was mental health and and things like that, and you're
not alone.

Speaker 2 (01:07:59):
And so he was just baiting these girls in and
then in turn, if they didn't keep their location on
where he could see it, and he realized that he
wasn't on there, you know, my eyes only and snapchat
and like he wasn't getting this exclusive invite into their
lives anymore, then the threats began. And you know, if

(01:08:25):
you don't turn your location off, I'm gonna I'm gonna
come over there. You're only like an hour away. Like
it was, it was insane. I'd be terrified as a
fourteen year old little girl if somebody said, I see
that your family is on vacation, I'm going to come
and see you. And i'mful, and I'm like.

Speaker 1 (01:08:45):
It's terrifying. It's like you said, he started out as
like mean and mean is bad enough. I don't think
people really get this idea of like how bad mean
is to a kid. Yeah, mean, in some ways, if
you're already fragileuse right, like that is harming your self
worth and your I dedit everything but I remember when

(01:09:06):
you called me when you were going in to interview him,
and you were actually going in between these meetings, and
you were giving me just a little bit of information
about it as you were going through it, and I
was just like, I am really surprised because I thought
there would be some sort of sexual predation here and
there wasn't, and predators and bad actors. It's not always
right after that sexual gratification, it is control and harming

(01:09:34):
and just hurting other people. And he's a really good
example of that. But it makes it too, Like you
were talking about earlier, how there's not enough of you
as law enforcement officers, but also there's not enough of you.
I'd love to have more Karens personally.

Speaker 2 (01:09:50):
Just for me. I don't know that everybody agrees with that.

Speaker 1 (01:09:54):
I would, but it's hard out here for Karens ones.
But you're talking about how there's not enough, and I'm
thinking about like the one person who in each of
these bits of this story that did the right thing
and really helped, so you and inviting me there to

(01:10:17):
speak right, thinking outside of the box, which led to
this young girl, very special, wonderful young girl coming forward
and opening up telling me, this me saying okay, I
believe you. Let's do something about it, having you there
in the back of the room to do something with it.

(01:10:38):
And that's really where all these resources do come in,
where at any point in time, any of us could
have dropped that ball and there would be forty eight
other victims who never got justice, and this this man
would continue to do the harm that he was doing,
and it wasn't going to get any better. I don't
think he was going to wake up one day and

(01:10:59):
be like, oh I did I got the CPR video.
It sounds like it was going towards when you tell
me it now, I really think about seven six four
and these groups that the nihilistic, biolistic extrements who just
want to see the world burn and really hurt people.

(01:11:19):
But thank goodness she came forward. She is incredible, and
it really it brings light to what kids are going through.
And it's something I always tell people, like before I present,
is that, like with adults, is that you don't understand
what kids are really going through. You might think that
they're crushing down with them, or they don't have the

(01:11:42):
pen for school, or they're late. Yes, and now they
have detention. But they are going through hell, and we
need to talk to them because they live in this
world that we live in now, the dark the darkest
parts of the world that you bear a little bit
of it extreme. But as you as a listener who
is out there and that world that you know that

(01:12:03):
you are exhausted or tired of, disgusted of let down about,
you know, all this darkness and horrible things in the world,
your kids are also living directly in that world. It's
not that it is separated from them. They get on
the social media platforms and they see the people shot
and beheaded and and all of these things too. They
see the pornography that is right in front of their faces.

(01:12:26):
It is not the separate universe. It's not a kid
world anymore. There's no kid world. There's no play zone.

Speaker 2 (01:12:35):
Anymore. It's it's all right. It are right.

Speaker 1 (01:12:40):
And and and far worse. And so we need to
talk to kids as they're living in that world. And
it's the world that you work in every single day.
So this podcast, while it falls under like a true
crime realm, and my story inherently does, and it's told

(01:13:01):
on many true crime podcasts and YouTube channels and TV
shows and all sorts of things. But what I really
want to talk about is like real crime, and that's
what I want.

Speaker 2 (01:13:11):
To come across.

Speaker 1 (01:13:12):
I feel like there's true crime, which is people watch
it for entertainment, is dark and awful. It as it is,
and I get that. I'm a true crime fan in
many ways as well. I hate what's happening, but it's
interesting to learn the stories and see what's going on
in the world and get behind the predators and mindsets
and all of that. But then there's the real crime,

(01:13:33):
which is what you see every day. And I just
want to ask you, what would you want to tell
the people who like binge watch true crime channels and
TV shows and podcasts, and like, what is the difference
between what you do and what they are listening to.

Speaker 2 (01:13:51):
I feel like it's been very dramatized, and by dramatized,
I don't mean like made to sound really interesting. If
I could say anything to those people, is you know,
when you sit and listen to a case and somebody
talk about how a case unfolded, stop and think for

(01:14:15):
a second, like what that investigator, what that team goes
through when it's over or during it, Like when they
go home every day. I think a lot of people
forget that we don't just stay in this office or
out in the field, like that's not our only point
of contact, Like we're we're wives and friends and parents

(01:14:42):
and what we deal with. The crimes that you're listening to. Albeit,
they're very interesting, and I totally get it because I
also listen to a lot of it for research purposes
of course, or just like to figure out learn a lot.
But and it's it's really interesting. But you know, I

(01:15:06):
listen to those things as an investigator, and sometimes I
can't help but think, like, God, I know exactly how
that person felt after they investigated that stuff that day.

Speaker 1 (01:15:18):
Oh and so nobody's thinking about them.

Speaker 2 (01:15:23):
Right, think about the they're thinking about the crime, but
they should be. That's the topic of the story, Like
they're listening to a crime story. But like you know,
when you are a person who lives that life and
you hear about a case that is maybe something really
similar to something you work that day, you're like, man,
I'm really feeling for that investigator today because that's that's

(01:15:47):
a heavy burden to take home. And you think, you know,
do they have kids, are they married, is there somebody
at home that's got a meal cooked form, or like
a shoulder to cry on, or you know. I think
I posted something on social media a while back then
you were like, hey, I want to steal a part

(01:16:08):
of this, and I couldn't remember what it was. I
think I was. I had a really bad day and
I opened up social media and all I saw was
just like all of this disdain towards law enforcement, and
I was just like, you know, I get where these
people are coming from. I do. I get why people

(01:16:28):
are angry. But at the same time, we're just people.
We're just people. We go home and we open our
door and we walk into our homes just like everybody else,
except for you know, we may come off a homicide
scene and when we get home the first thing we're
doing is throwing up because we're just then emotionally processed

(01:16:50):
like everything that we've been through that day, because we're
in a safe space for us, like we're a home.
I can't sit here and decompress in front of twelve
other people who I barely know, like what I just saw.
Sometimes I have to go.

Speaker 1 (01:17:06):
They might also judge your ability to do the job.

Speaker 2 (01:17:08):
Right, like exactly and nobody in this in this building would,
and the people that I worked with, but it's just
like you were law enforcement, we're kind of guess we
don't cry. You've been in that situation where you've got
a room full of law enforcement. Somebody's like, just feel
your feelings, and we're like, nope, no, thank you, I'm

(01:17:30):
not going to do that today. But you do. You
go home and you can only hold it for so
long before you walk into a room and you just
you know, get in a shower and let it out,
or you know, look at your kids and think I
worked a case today where the victim in that case

(01:17:51):
was the same age as my daughter, and I just
could never imagine her going through that or my reaction
because we're all still parents and we're all human. But yeah,
when people listen to those, I just I know from
my point of view, like when I listen to those,
sometimes I hear about a scene or you know, what

(01:18:13):
an investigator had to go through to get some information
or see or do, and I just think, oh, man, buddy,
I've been there. I get it, Okay, I know I
know how you feel. Hope when you went home that night,
you you got to sit on the front porch with
a glass of wine and watch all the traffic go

(01:18:33):
by or the birds sing or something whatever it is.
That what the officers do when they go home, Like
you always, I always wonder like how do how do
other people deal with it? So I love that crimes
are really cool, but.

Speaker 1 (01:18:50):
Like the crimes are really cool, and I know the.

Speaker 2 (01:18:52):
Story is great, like it's very interesting. Okay that I
shouldn't say they're cool, but like, no, no, how that
investigation delves out, Like that's how people think about it.
Like you see the reels where it's like the wife's listening,
your wife's ear pods connect to the car and it's
like just explaining this terrible murder scene and you're like,

(01:19:13):
but that's what people are interested in, and it's human
natured to be interested in stuff like that. But just
for me, I just want people to know that we
feel too. We're not all rock hard warriors. We will
make you think we are. We do like to put
that face forward, unless you're a child, and then we're

(01:19:36):
just like, come, I just want to give you a hug.
But yeah, I mean, I don't know how you do
what you do it Every every time you speak I'm
just amazed to be like, there's no way I would

(01:19:56):
put myself through that, Like that takes so much bravery
and strength to stand up in front of hundreds of
students that you don't know and just tell your story
over and over and over and over and over again.
That you do it, and I'm thankful that you do
because they don't listen to us, but they listen to you,

(01:20:18):
and we've seen them do it. So I'll continue to
plug you into schools as much as I can if
it means that we save one.

Speaker 1 (01:20:28):
So and we have and we know that we had
through that way led to yeah, we did it.

Speaker 2 (01:20:37):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:20:39):
Well again, just thank you so much for all that
you do. And I hope I get to see you
soon because I really miss you and it has been.

Speaker 2 (01:20:48):
I feel like I feel like the beach is calling
my name.

Speaker 1 (01:20:51):
Actually, thank you so much for tuning in. We really
appreciate it. We'll be releasing new episodes every Thursday. Make
sure you check out our YouTube channel and hit us
up on our social media on at Alicia kozac pot
for extra content around each episode, and please remember to
subscribe on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts