On Episode 14 of The Away End, John and Daniel start with a discussion about the heartbreaking injury of the great Liverpool player, Hugo Ekitike and the implications it has on the World Cup, along with several other poorly-timed injuries, less than two months out from kickoff. Then, Daniel and John give their perspective on gambling and the dilution of the shared experience of sport and the problems that arise as a result. Plus a very special guest joins the show to curate the mailbag segment!
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
Welcome to the Way, and I'm Danielle Alercon, I'm John Green,
and we have special episodes today. But before we get started,
I wanted to ask our listeners. You know, John, this
is a new podcast. We're trying to grow an audience. Yeah,
and I think it's worth asking our loyal listeners. And
I know they're out there because you send us so
many emails to rate and review our show and to
(00:27):
tell your friends about it, and that would be really helpful.
So I wanted to say that at the top, John,
we're gonna do something a little bit different, different than
usual today. We're not going to tell a story, We're
not going to do a deep dive into a country,
and we have a special guest at the end.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Really special guests, very.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
Special, I would say. But so you did want to
talk about something that I think is unique and.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
Complicated, something that happens once every four years. And I
wanted to ask you about this because you are yourself
an a lad athlete and so you might have some
insight for me. So the Liverpool, the great Liverpool player
Ugo Akitik, just tore his achilles and it was a
brutal injury. It was awful to watch. It was heartbreaking,
(01:18):
But part of what made it so heartbreaking was that
Akitik was realizing in the same moment that the rest
of us were, that, in addition to facing a very
long period of recovery and potentially, you know, struggling to
ever be the same player again, he was going to
miss the World Cup. And this is something that happens
(01:41):
in every World Cup cycle. I remember when Sergio Ramos
injured Mohammed Salad in the Champions League final. Salah went
off in tears because he knew that he was at
least going to be compromised for the World Cup and
would at least miss some of the games. And indeed
he wasn't a particularly impactful player in that World Cup
(02:03):
and it just it just breaks my heart and it
makes me wonder, from your perspective.
Speaker 3 (02:10):
As an elite athlete, Yeah, as.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
An elite athlete, do you think players have that in
their minds? Like, let's say you're Liverpool and you've basically
locked up the Champions League and you're not going to
win anything this year, and so your last four games
are being played for pride and glory, not for any
particular matter of import like Is it in your mind
that if you get injured, you're going to miss the
(02:33):
World Cup, this thing you've been dreaming about since you
were literally two or three years old.
Speaker 3 (02:37):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
Or let's say you're Arsenal and your season's over and
you're basically not playing for anything anymore. You probably are
declan Rice and you've run the equivalent of seven thousand
kilometers over the course of the last nine months.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
I'll tell you what, if you had eleven Deklan rices,
you would win the Premier League.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
That's fair enough, fair enough, but we don't. That will
be my only illusion in this episode to what happened
this weekend. So uh yeah, I think it's in your mind.
I think it's got to be in your mind. And
I I'm glad you mentioned the you know, the much
beloved and world renowned good guy, Sirghill Ramos, who's probably
(03:21):
injured more players and affected more careers negatively than any
other player, say for Pepe, his his partner in the midfield. Uh,
I mean in the in the defense of Madrid in
those days. Look, it's impossible not to feel compassion towards
a player like a kit k.
Speaker 3 (03:40):
You know, I I.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
It is one of those really poignant moments, and that
it's happening so close to the tournament. Worre just just
you know, weeks away literally from the beginning of the
tournament at this point, and uh, and to know that
this might be it, and also you know you might
not get another chance, especially if he played for France,
like in four years there will be another crop of
(04:05):
incredible young players pounding at the door and possibly you know.
Speaker 3 (04:09):
Keeping you out of the team.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
Yeah, for Liverpool, I think he's been the best signing
of the summer, which was probably surprising to a lot
of people, given who else.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
Surprising to me. Yeah, but a bit of a low
bar to jump over, it must.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
Be said, yes, and now in his injured state he
could not jump over it. Indeed, indeed, Jesus, that's a
little dark.
Speaker 3 (04:31):
Sorry.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
I pulled up the list John of some of the
kind of potential high profile absentees this year and actually
should say, my assistant Eliseo pulled up this list. One
fourth Argentina out, Christian Romero from Argentina possibly out. Brazil,
Rodrigo and Rafina are possible. Well, Rodrigo definitely is out.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
I think the law of Rodrigo I mean, in addition
to the personal heartbreak of Rodrigo and his family and
his friends and everything. I think that's really damaging for Brazil.
Speaker 3 (05:09):
Yeah I do too.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
I do too, and Rafina if he doesn't make it
would be I mean, he's a class player man Croatia Guardiol,
one of the best defenders in the last tournament, one
of the best defenders in the Premier League.
Speaker 3 (05:23):
He's a doubt England.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
James Madison, I haven't seen him play in eighteen months.
This poor guy has Yeah, well he's injury.
Speaker 3 (05:34):
He's been injured. Yeah, yeah, he's been injured.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
I think that he would have probably been a fairly
peripheral player to England. I don't think that he's as
essential as someone like Raffine is to Brazil. But I
think that, you know, you always want to have all.
And again, there's there's the there's the part of you
that cares about how the team does, and then there's
the part of you that cares about the player, and
(05:58):
the part of you that cares about the player heartbroken
regardless because he would have been in the team and
he would have had a chance to play, you know,
play in the World Cup. And that's I mean, you
and I date our lives by every four years the
World Cup. But if you're a professional football player, you
really date your life. But I mean it's the defining
(06:19):
opportunity of your career.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
No, and you and I as fans have you know,
a dozen or more World Cups?
Speaker 3 (06:26):
As players? You know you have two, three if you're lucky,
you know.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
Six, if five if you're oh yeah, infinite number if
you're a Because Mexico only has one goalkeeper every two
per century, apparently you know who could have used James
Madison is Tottenham. But that's another story that's very true France.
We mentioned I did want to mention and this was
(06:55):
a story that happened while I was traveling that apparently,
you know, France could could have been without Imbappe. He's
had knee problems and one of the reasons they had
this problem was because the crack medical team at Real
Madrid we did an MRI on the wrong knee of
killing Abappe and told him he was fine to play,
and in fact he wasn't because they checked the wrong
(07:16):
knee and.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
When they checked the right knee it turned out that
there were some issues. That is an epic failure, Like,
if that happens to me, it's a significant medical failure.
To have it happen to literally killing in Bompe is
just beyond the pale. I mean, everyone should be fired.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
Everyone should be fired and rehired at Tottenham Mexico. Marcel
Ruiz at Snalvarez Netherlands, Mattiste de Licht and Justin Clybert
are both doubts. And this is one that I want
to mention as an Arsenal fan. Michel Marino, wonderful midfield player, solid,
so versatile, he can score, he can play anywhere in
(07:57):
the midfield and upfront, and he's a doubt with a
weird foot injury that kind of came out of nowhere.
Speaker 3 (08:04):
So it's sad.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
It's sad because also as a fan, you want to
see the best players in the best shape of their lives,
playing at the very highest level. And I think there's
something here that we should mention John, which is that
these guys are just getting played into the ground.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
I mean, I was watching the Arsenal versus Manchester City
game and thinking about how tired those Arsenal players look.
The Manchester City players don't look that tired because they're
not actually human, they're automatons. But the Arsenal players looked exhausted,
and you know, at the end of a run, you
could see them pulling on their shorts, you could see
them leaning over. It's interesting. I mean, as a fan
(08:46):
of third potentially soon to be fourth tier English soccer,
those players play just as many games, run just as far,
and you don't see it quite as much. And maybe
I don't think it's I think the fitness levels in
(09:07):
the Premier League are obviously higher, the fitness levels in
the Champions League are obviously higher than they are in
the third or fourth tier of you know, some some
random countries football league. But that's always been what I've
my response to it. When when coaches or players at
the top levels say, well, we simply play too much,
(09:28):
my response has always been, well, you know, down in
the third division, nobody says, like, forty six games is
too many. They play forty six games a season, plus
an FA Cup run if they're lucky, plus the league
Cup games, plus some random cups, and they end up
playing fifty five games a season and nobody spares a
thought for them and making you know, one hundred thousand
(09:49):
bucks a year. But I'm starting to think that there's
clearly something wrong with fixture congestion, not just because of
the injuries, but because of the quality of the football
at the end of the season. It's it's really not there.
I mean, yeah, it's not there universally. Like watching Liverpool
versus Everton this weekend, I was thinking the quality is
(10:10):
different than it was in October.
Speaker 3 (10:13):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
I mean, top players in Europe haven't had a summer
off and.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
That's what's that's a key insight is that they don't
get a summer off because they're either traveling with their
club or they're in the Euros of the World Cup.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
Right and the Club World Cup from last season. Again,
you look at a team like Chelsea and they've fallen off.
Cole Palmer is a great player and he, you know,
hasn't been the same since that tournament.
Speaker 3 (10:43):
Yeah, so.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
You kind of feel for these guys because their careers
are so short they last. You know, if you're lucky,
you get seven eight years a decade and that's it.
So they want to take advantage of it. But then
they get played overplayed and there's a limit I worry about.
I'll tell you how I worry about I worry about
Lamina Mal. He's yeah, and everyone's like, oh, he's you know, seventeen,
(11:10):
he's eighteen.
Speaker 3 (11:11):
He's a phenomenon.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
But then you look at Bukayasaka, who came up at
that age, and you know, he's twenty four now and
he's had an injury plagued season and is not the
same player who was two years ago. If you start
at age sixteen, it doesn't mean that you're going to
play till age thirty two, and it means that you
might be done at age twenty five, right.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
I think a lot about those young phenoms. It's almost
like being a child prodigy. Oh you know, you think
about the people who bombed out, or the people who
didn't live up to their promise, or the wonder kids
who didn't, the starboys who didn't become great players, and
then you think about the ones who did and a
lot of times you're right, they're not great into their thirties,
(11:55):
and some of that has to be the way that
they've been been utilized or played. I worry about those
people because they never got to be kids.
Speaker 3 (12:06):
You know.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
I worry about Lamina Mal because he almost has like
a justin Bieber child star phenomenon where he never got
to be fifteen, not in a meaningful way, because he
was already on the fringes of Barcelona's first team.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
John is someone who did get to be fifteen. Uh, Like,
what exactly is there to recommend being fifteen in your estimation?
From your own exploi uce I, there were aspects of
being fifteen that that I didn't love. As a friend
of ours from our high school once told me that
(12:42):
place saved my life.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
It also did lots of other things.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
Right, yeah, I mean, okay, So to argue against myself,
I would you know, perhaps you could say that the
parts the other things are what you wrote, you know,
your first novel about Yeah, and maybe you know gave
you sort of a jumpstar on your on your on
your literary career. Like I don't know that la Mignamal
(13:08):
is going to write a great novel about his troubled youth.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
Although he could he could write a great novel about
being fifteen and being on the edge of Barcelle in
his first team. Are you kidding? I'd read that, but
I think that yeah, I mean, certainly it gave me,
in particular a lot of gifts that it it, you
know that that are particular to my experience. I do
think that it's developmentally important to be an adolescent. As
(13:31):
hard as it is, I think that it's helpful. It
makes it so that you're not an adolescent when you're
an adult.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
Yeah, that's true. There's a kid named Julian Hall. I
don't know if you hear you're following MLS. I believe
he might be top scorer of a New York Red Bull.
He's a real one touch in the box poacher. He's
super quick, he's got an instinct for goal. He's like sixteen,
I think seventeen maybe. But I've been hearing about him
(13:59):
for years because my son's. One of my son's friends
played with him and they're they're they're close friends, and
you know, everyone's always been talking about him, and I
just wonder, you know, even for him, the pressure playing
in a you know, uh in in MLS, which is
not the star league like La Liga or you know,
(14:20):
Maxdelman in the Premier League. It just it's it's a lot,
you know. Yeah, you're right, he doesn't he's not gonna
go to prom. He's not even gonna get to go
to like a like a party at someone's house when
the parents are out of town, which is like this
like normal high school thing to do. You know, Like
he's not gonna have those milestones that you were just
talking about.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
The other thing he's not going to have. And we
it turned out that this was not a segment about
injuries so much as it was a segment about trying
to psychoanalyze the mind of elite footballers. But the other
thing he's not going to have is he's not going
to have an experience of being anonymous.
Speaker 3 (14:57):
Like HM.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
One of the things about being fifteen or sixteen years
old is that you don't have to worry about anyone
but your parents and the police caring about what you do.
And that's not the case for the meinam al right,
Like if he gets drunk at a party, it's national news,
(15:21):
international yeah, international news, Whereas when we got drunk at parties,
it was mostly it wasn't news. I never got drunk
at any party, correct, especially given our special guests presence Exactly,
it's important it's important to note that Daniel was never
never involved in any of that. Shenanigan's Sean on the
(15:44):
other hand.
Speaker 1 (15:44):
My god, incorrigible, incordibal a miracle he survived that rowdy adolescence. Yeah,
I find all this interesting, and I think we have
to worry. You know, the connection between what we're discussing
now and the injuries is sort of like the concern
(16:05):
for player welfare, which I think is something that we
don't talk about enough because we assume that all of
these guys are super well paid, pampered millionaires whose job
all they got to do is kick the ball under
the net, and we don't worry so much about their
mental health, their physical health, or their their long term health.
You know, they're their long term health, you know when
they're our age, you know, which which is tough. I
(16:28):
do think John, if you go back to writing young
adult novels, maybe you could write one about an elite
athlete in one of these situations. And I'm happy to,
you know, sort of give you the insight as an
elite athlete.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
That's what I was going to say is I think
you're almost more qualified to do it because of your
incredible skill as a high school athlete. Maybe you can
have a little bit of insight into what it's like
to be so special that nobody at school treats you normally.
Speaker 3 (16:54):
Yeah, it was rough. It was rough. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
Let's take a break and we'll come back with the
discussion about another thing that's been bothering me about about
elite sports.
Speaker 3 (17:07):
Yeah, we'll be right back.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
All right, we're back on the way, and John, I
want to talk about something that is bad. Like many
bad American things, this bad thing emerges from New Jersey.
Speaker 3 (17:34):
So the backstory is this.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
In twenty twelve, then a New Jersey governor, Chris Christie,
was tired of Nevada being the only state in the
Union allowed to take money from working people, and so
he signed a bill legalizing gambling in state license sites.
This case naturally wound up with the Supreme Court, and there,
in their infinite wisdom, without giving much thought to the
(17:56):
kind of social implications, they ruled kind of a narrow
regulatory on the narrow regulatory concern and basically said, the
states and not the Feds are the ones who have
the authority regular gambling. And that was kind of the
beginning of where we are today. And what I mean
(18:16):
by that that decision came in twenty eighteen. What I
mean by that is that gambling now is everywhere. It's everywhere,
not just in sports, but kind of in all aspects
of our society and culture. And it's spread, you know,
not just across the United States, across the world. I've
been living in Bogoada. Every ad at halftime, literally every
(18:40):
ad is about a different gambling site.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
It's the same in England. I mean it's it's every.
Speaker 3 (18:46):
Ad, every ad.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
Eleven of the twenty Premier League teams have betting sponsors
on the front of their shirt. And this is all
all come to mind. We've had a number of betting
scandals in the uh uh an NBA, in MLB, you know, we.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
Had We should also mention that there's a betting scandal
related to oil prices and the closing of this trait
of horror moves. I mean there there are betting scandals,
not just in sports, but in anything that can be
speculated about.
Speaker 1 (19:20):
Yes, that's like a whole different issue because the level
of corruption that we have not yet uncovered about, say,
insiders betting with inside information on things like we're gonna
bomber on today are uh that has yet to be uncovered.
Who's making money, but they've made millions and millions and
millions of dollars off of inside information of US foreign policy.
(19:44):
But I feel like that's that's like kind of a.
Speaker 3 (19:47):
Level of outside the scope of the away end.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
Yes, that's the the away, away end. All of this
came to mind because I read this really great piece
in The Atlantic called My Year as a Degenerate Gambler
by the writer M McKay coppins, and he writes this,
practically overnight, we took an ancient vice long regarded as
soul rotting and civilizationally ruinous, and put it on everyone's
phone and made it as normal and frictionless as checking
(20:12):
the weather. What could possibly go wrong? He writes this
really brilliant essay kind of a deep dive into sports
gambling culture and tracks his own sort of like descent
into this world. He begins by saying, like, I'm not
(20:33):
the addictive type. You know this won't be a problem,
and then you know, tracks about how, over the course
of a year researching this gambling takes over his life
and you know, ruins I wouldn't say ruined, at least
colors a lot of really kind of sacricyanct family interactions, friendships,
(20:55):
and crucially the way he enjoys sports. So there's this
one scene that I want to mention John because I
think understand what I'm talking about. He goes to one
of these like sport books where he can watch games,
and he's like, oh, finally get to watch games with
people who care. And he finds that everyone's watching games
for different reasons, because everyone has these little micro bets
on things that are might or may or may not happen.
(21:18):
And he writes, this gambling has made us all care
much more about the games, but it just also atomized us,
taking the last and purest expression of American monoculture and
turning it into a hyper individualized, every man for himself
portfolio of micro bets. I hate gambling. I hate fantasy football.
I hate watching a game and instead of just caring
(21:38):
about if my team wins or loses, caring if a
player on a team that I hate might score a goal,
like I'd find out to be just a perversion of fandom.
And the stakes are huge. The stakes are huge because look,
in twenty seventeen, American's legally bet four point nine billion
on sports. Last year, that number was one hundred and
(21:59):
sixty billion dollars for a percentage of people who get
involved in gambling, they're going.
Speaker 3 (22:04):
To lose big. They're going to lose big.
Speaker 1 (22:08):
Ninety percent of sportsbooks revenue comes from less than ten
percent of their users. So those people who are like
losing their wages, their pensions, their college their kids college funds,
you know. And then the impacts of course are downstream
are like, you know, their families, their relationships, their jobs,
their futures. You know, it's just a tragedy. And I
(22:28):
I really sort of like.
Speaker 3 (22:31):
Hate that.
Speaker 1 (22:32):
It dilutes the experience of being a fan, of of
of watching a game and knowing what you want from
that game, and the simplicity of it. It it just
ruins it. I hate it, and I wanted to know
what you think.
Speaker 2 (22:49):
Well, we've talked before about that. One of the things
that football provides for both of us is a purity
of emotion. You know, you're simply sad when Arsenal get
beat by Manchester City.
Speaker 3 (23:04):
See it didn't happen.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
Yeah, you're simply happy when Arsenal win the Champions League
in a month, and you you do dilute that. I
think there are people who can play fantasy football responsibly,
and you know, like I'll give you an example. So
I'm in an IndyCar Fantasy league. I'm in the only
(23:28):
IndyCar Fantasy league in the world. There's five of us,
and we had to invent the rules because there is
no rules for IndyCar Fantasy League and watching IndyCar. I'm
going to say this carefully. Outside of the Indianapolis five
hundred is a bit of a chore, and it allows
(23:49):
me to be invested in watching the sport in a
different way. And I think that's okay. I know what
you mean about the added I know what the writer
means about the atomization of experience, and it is true,
like you want everybody to be every Green Bay Packers
fan in the stadium to be watching rooting for the
green Bay Packers to win, not rooting for a particular
(24:12):
number of points or a particular number of yards thrown
by the quarterback, and that it does dilute the shared
experience of a shared experience, and that concerns me because
we have so few shared experiences left. I absolutely know
what you're talking about there. I think there is I
think that there is a difference between the radical ostracization
(24:37):
of a lot of sports scandaling versus the community building
potential of a fantasy league. So you and I were
in a fantasy league several years ago with a bunch
of writer friends. And for me it was incredible because
not because I didn't care if I want or lost.
In fact, I don't think I ever updated my team,
(24:58):
but the email threat was incredible, like, for sure, so cool.
Speaker 3 (25:03):
It made me feel so cool.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
To be on that email thread. And I would participate
in it very sparingly, and when I did very carefully,
like I would reread my emails thirty times before I
sent them to make sure that they were as funny
as possible.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
Yeah, when you're in an email thread with like Robbie
a Lamadine National Book Award winner and Sasha m On
mac MacArthur genius, Uh, you're.
Speaker 2 (25:26):
Kemuel Alarcon MacArthur genius. I mean, why don't you ever
talk about the fact that you're a MacArthur genius. I
would talk about it non stop.
Speaker 1 (25:33):
Yeah, Look, it was. It was a beautiful community of writers.
Speaker 3 (25:37):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (25:38):
So that's what I'm talking about. When it builds community,
I'm all for it. And when it ostracizes you from
your community by making you by by garnishing your wages,
by ruining your relationships by you know that, then then
it's devastating and there's no question that the harm is
greater than the good, right, Like we could have had
(26:00):
an email thread where everybody rooting for Arsenal is rooting
for Arsenal and everybody rooting for Liverpool is rooting for Liverpool,
and it's a great email thread, you know, and it
doesn't involve whether or not Airlin Holland scores a goal
or whatever. And that's that to me is the central
question when it comes to sports is does this deepen
(26:23):
the community ties that people feel toward each other and
with each other. Does it make them want to work
with and for each other in pursuit of a greater
good or greater human connection, or does it make them
feel further apart from each other. And when it makes
them feel further apart from each other, we've lost the
whole point of sports. There is no reason to do it.
Speaker 1 (26:43):
Yeah, yeah, I mean that's what worries me. It worries
me that that we're not able to focus on like
that it's not enough, Like why isn't it Why isn't
it enough just to watch the game and see who wins,
as opposed to like, why do you have to add
all these other things when the game itself should be enough.
Speaker 2 (27:06):
Yeah, the game itself should be enough, and the game
itself is enough if you let yourself get invested. Yet
I've really been experimenting with the Danielle Alercone theory of
(27:28):
don't let myself get negatively invested in emotional football experiences.
And the team that I sponsor, AFC Wimbledon, have lost
six straight games and are on the edge of relegation.
They need to win one of their last two games,
but there's no indication that they can because they have
an injury crisis and lots of other and the lowest
budget in the league and everything else. And they lost
(27:48):
on Saturday, And I was like, I'm going to channel
my inner Alercone and not get emotionally invested in this
and not let it ruin myself Saturday in Richmond, Virginia
speaking to all these people and having a lovely opportunity
to speak to lots of students and adults, and I'm
not gonna let it ruin that. I'm not gonna let
(28:10):
it ruin time with my family. But it did Daniel,
it did, it did. I was negatively impacted. I didn't
want to be, but I was. I was like, I can't.
Speaker 3 (28:20):
It's so hard to get promoted. It's so hard to
get promoted. After you get relegated, it's so hard to
get back up there.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
Tottenham are going to experience this. It's harder than you
think it's going to be.
Speaker 1 (28:33):
We have a question about this in the mailback section.
I'm gonna give you my experience because, as you know,
on Sunday, I'm told that Arsenal lost to man City.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
Yeah, you were only going to reference it once, but
I took the over. I actually just made a hundred
bucks off DraftKings, the polymarket or whatever. I'll tell you what, man,
I didn't watch the game.
Speaker 3 (28:57):
I knew no.
Speaker 1 (28:57):
I did not watch the game. I added a cafe.
I read a sci fi novel set in space.
Speaker 3 (29:04):
Wow, was it a good book? Do you want to
mention it?
Speaker 1 (29:06):
It's an Orbital Men Booker Prize winner from twenty twenty four.
Halfway through, it's quite good. And the reason that I
did that is just because I knew it was going
to ruin my day and soon I had just thrived
in New York and we wanted to. I wanted to
have a day, you know. I didn't want Yeah on me,
(29:27):
and I just knew that I wouldn't be able to
handle it, you know. It was too anxiety inducing. And
I turned my phone off, read this book and it
didn't ruin my day. It didn't ruin my day.
Speaker 2 (29:39):
I almost texted you and Sean a joke, and then
I was like, no, it's probably not the right vibe.
Speaker 1 (29:47):
I will say that it hurt very badly. I care
very deeply about this team, and I have been, you know,
like I have to put up with all the nonsense
of other fans being petty, and it's fine. I like
Arsenal deserve it. I think that's totally fine. I don't
take offense to it. I think it's we've earned it.
Speaker 2 (30:05):
You know.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
But I just didn't want to go through the two
hours of hoping and wondering what was going to happen
in the anxiety. I felt it was going to be
too much for my middle aged heart. And I didn't
watch it, and I feel okay about it, and as
a result, it didn't ruin my day. It ruined my
(30:27):
day a little bit, A little bit A tiny little bit,
a tiny little bit. I was very I was sad,
but you know I was functional, you know, right, right,
I functioned throughout the day. I just kept thinking, Yeah,
I functioned. I functioned on Saturday. I got through the day,
and I had a lot of joy in the day. Actually,
it was just they're working in the background. Was always
(30:49):
this sadness. But you're right, the game should be enough.
The game is enough. Yeah, and I think that. Look,
the reason these companies are able to advertise the way
that they do is precisely because they make, you know,
if there's one hundred and eighty billion dollars of legal
(31:09):
gambling a year, they make you know, twenty billion dollars,
and you know that's a pretty good return on your investment.
Speaker 3 (31:18):
Well, look, here's a couple other facts. Men.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
You have to win fifty two point five percent of
your bets just to break even. That's right, and that's
before taxes.
Speaker 3 (31:27):
Right.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
Here's here's a shocking statistic, again from the Mickay Coppins article,
which I highly recommend. More than a third of men's
Division I college basketball players say they've received abusive messages
from gamblers. Twenty one percent of gamblers themselves admit to
lashing out at athletes in person or online. There's even
a I mean, you know, imagine you're like a nineteen
(31:49):
year old player at like Wichita State, and you miss
a free throw that someone had a parlay on, and
then you're getting abusive emails from randoms like people who
would never you know, who are probably normal, decent people
in their real life, but their entire expectation of the
enjoyment of sport has been distorted and mutated into this
(32:13):
kind of vile, you know, lecherous greed, and you're and
you're find yourself writing a hateful email to a nineteen
year old like what's wrong with you?
Speaker 3 (32:23):
You know what?
Speaker 2 (32:24):
This takes us back, though, to the question of the
well being of people and the ways that which I think,
especially with the professionalization of college basketball college football, now
that those players are paid, and sometimes paid very well,
there is a feeling not just among gamblers, I don't think,
but among lots of people that if you are paid well,
(32:45):
then part of the and this may be getting into
some personal territory, Daniel, but part of the social benefit
that the public gets to experience from you being paid
well is the right to abuse you. It is the
right to you know, yell at you and tell you
(33:06):
that you're a terrible person. And it's it's punching up
to do that because they're rich, right, Like it's punching
up to tell Lebron James's son that he's a nepo
baby because he's wealthy. It's punching up to tell some
nineteen year old who plays for Wichita State that he's
an you know, a piece of crap because he missed
a free throw. And that's just not true. I mean,
(33:29):
it's it's true. You're absolutely punching up if you punch
up at me or Daniel, Like, you know, we're in
our forties and have stable, functional relationships and you know
a sense of self and everything. But you're not punching
up when you say that to a professional athlete who's
twenty two years old. I'm sorry, You're you're you're making
the world worse.
Speaker 1 (33:50):
Yeah, I also think about this, and you've seen this phenomenon, right,
So in the real world, you have a bad day
at work, it was a terrible meeting, you had a presentation,
you blew it, and then afterwards you're like, oh, and
you go out and get a drink with some friends
and to commiserate, right, normal, No one thinks bat's an eye,
right because you're, like, you had a rough day. So
(34:10):
let's say you're an Arsenal player and you lost to
Man City and you you know, missed a golden chance
to tie the game. You know, minute, I've been told.
Speaker 2 (34:22):
This is now three times. Yeah, but yeah, go on.
Speaker 1 (34:26):
And I'm not saying this happened, but like, what if
after that game you go out to get a drink
with some friends to talk about your feelings, and then
someone takes a picture of you, and then it's a scandal.
It's like right, you know, and you know, twenty six
year old, you know, highly paid Arsenal players celebrating their
loss to whatever. This isn't This didn't happen necessarily, but
you've seen it before where players, young men athletes get
(34:52):
vilified for doing something that's absolutely normal, which is like
going out with friends after a disappointment, not to celebrate,
but just to like let steam because it's hard, you're
under pressure all the time. And they get criticized as
if they didn't care about the team, as if you know,
going out to a bar, whether you're you know, getting
(35:12):
hammered or not is incompatible with winning, you know, when
we know.
Speaker 3 (35:16):
From history it's not. I don't know.
Speaker 1 (35:18):
It just seems to me that that athletes are both
incredibly privileged and also help to these impossible standards that
they aren't allowed to be human.
Speaker 3 (35:26):
You know.
Speaker 2 (35:27):
Yeah, well they're really not allowed to be human in
some fundamental way, which is that we don't think of
them as people. This is one of the great benefits
of lower league football is that you do think of
them as people, because they're in the bar afterwards with you,
they're on the train home from the away game with
you sometimes, and so you have to think of them
(35:48):
as people. But still the lower league athletes receive all
kinds of abuse. And you know, the other thing about
it is that sometimes people will say, like, oh, I
should be allowed to say whatever I want on Twitter
and tag this person, you know, tag Sokka or whatever
and say whatever I want, because like, he shouldn't be looking,
you know, he shouldn't look. Well you try, You tried
(36:11):
being twenty four years old and not looking at your replies?
Like you try that? Yeah, show me how easy it is.
Because I remember when I was in middle school, I was.
This is going to surprise you, But I was a
pretty big nerd. It was really really unpopular, and I
was bullied heavily bullied physically, emotionally. It was really really
(36:33):
difficult for me before I got to our school where
I became immensely popular and beloved. But I remember I
had I had these two popular kids who would carpool
with me, and I remember wanting to put a recording
device in there in the car so that I could
(36:56):
hear what they were saying about me, so that I
could understand what was wrong with me. I really wanted
to understand what was wrong with me, why I was
getting bullied so much, because it just I just couldn't
figure out how to make it not happen. And Twitter
and read It and Facebook are recording devices where everyone
(37:17):
will tell any famous person exactly what they think of
them all the time. And the idea that it's easy
to resist that is just ludicrous. It is really hard
to resist it.
Speaker 3 (37:28):
That's very well said.
Speaker 1 (37:29):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 3 (37:31):
Do you read your reviews my reviews?
Speaker 1 (37:35):
Well, I don't write books anymore, Uh, John.
Speaker 2 (37:37):
No, but you know what I mean, Like, do you
read reviews of the away ND? Do you read reviews
of radio and Viulante.
Speaker 1 (37:44):
Yeah occasionally, No, occasionally I do.
Speaker 2 (37:46):
But it also I just want to stop you for
a second because you just said something that I strongly
disagree with.
Speaker 3 (37:53):
Oh go for you.
Speaker 2 (37:54):
Yeah what that you don't write books anymore? You better
write at least one more book?
Speaker 1 (37:59):
Oh oh yeah, And that's actually a nice place to land,
because there is one kind of wager, one kind of
gambling that is okay, which is if you, as a novelist,
bet against your friend who has also written novels in
the past, about who will better predict the outcome of
the World Cup, and on the line is a mention
(38:20):
in an forthcoming novel. I think we can all agree
that kind of gambling is allowed and.
Speaker 2 (38:25):
Probably beneficial to the world, precisely because it brings a
community together. To go back to my point earlier, yeah,
so you have to write at least one more book.
Speaker 3 (38:35):
I will, okay.
Speaker 2 (38:36):
I mean I'm going to be personally devastated just because
I love your writing, but also because you will have
flagrantly failed the wager. Well, we're assuming you're assuming you're
going to win, which no, I think Sean's going to
win because he knows the least about football.
Speaker 3 (38:54):
That's true. That's true.
Speaker 1 (38:56):
Maybe we can bring him our special guests in on
the wager and we can all wager, and then we'll
have even more novels to dissect and to find our
mentions in.
Speaker 2 (39:05):
I love that, and I love the idea of him participating.
And I also just want to say, for the record,
I remember you told me like years ago that you
were going to be a journalist and that you weren't
going to write novels for a while.
Speaker 3 (39:20):
And I remember.
Speaker 2 (39:21):
Thinking like, and I may have even said this to you,
like that's the wrong decision, Like you're a brilliant fiction writer,
and you should write fiction. But actually I was wrong,
Like you're also a brilliant journalist, and you should continue
to do what you do and what you love to
do and what you want to do. But you do
have to write one more book.
Speaker 1 (39:41):
I will, I will, And I just want to say
that recording this podcast has been just being bullied with
praise episode after episode, and it's doing wonders for my ego.
And I want to thank you for always being so
kind and generous with your compliments.
Speaker 2 (39:53):
I mean it, I mean I've admired both of you,
both you and Shawn since I was fifteen. I've only
admired Kurt for the last like eight weeks or so,
but I admire everybody who makes this podcast.
Speaker 1 (40:07):
That's great, and I'm glad you never were able to
slip the recording device into the carpool and here, which I'm.
Speaker 3 (40:12):
Sting man, it would not have been good news.
Speaker 1 (40:15):
All right, let's take a quick break and we'll be
back with the mail bag and our special guests. We're
back at the Away and we have a special guest, Eddisel.
Speaker 2 (40:37):
Hello.
Speaker 3 (40:38):
Hello, how you doing? Man? Good? Who are you?
Speaker 4 (40:41):
I'm your son?
Speaker 3 (40:42):
There you go, There you go?
Speaker 2 (40:43):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (40:44):
So Eddie Sale has been in charge of curating this
week's mail bag, and we have six very spicy questions
lined up. Great and so and so, who's your favorite team?
Speaker 4 (40:58):
Like national team or both? The Columbia national team okay,
or the Arsenal.
Speaker 3 (41:06):
Thank you, thank you, that's the right answer. That's great.
Speaker 2 (41:08):
At least you're gonna win the Premier League. Don't listen
to your dad.
Speaker 4 (41:11):
No, I'm confident.
Speaker 2 (41:13):
I love the confidence.
Speaker 3 (41:14):
He's confident.
Speaker 4 (41:15):
They have to play against Villa, our toughest opponent's Newcastle.
Speaker 3 (41:19):
Yeah, Newcastle's tough, not Villa.
Speaker 1 (41:23):
Newcastle's in fourteenth Daniel, Yeah, but yeah, okay. Alisal speaks
with the confidence of a young man whose heart has
not been broken, and I I I'm here for it.
I love it, and you know, I will be very
happy if we win the Premier League. I'll be very
happy if we win anything. Uh Anyway, but that's not
(41:46):
what we're here to discuss, because that now it's been
since I said that will be my only mention of Arsenal,
it's been five mentions now. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (41:55):
So someone on poly market is setting up over under
right now on how how many? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (42:01):
Okay, just a director's note. And so don't look behind
you at John. Okay, resist the urg resist the urg
to look behind you at the giant screen of John
Green's face hovering over you, as if he say about John,
lift your hands up like this. Okay, hold that, hold that,
and he said it looks scared.
Speaker 3 (42:21):
There we go.
Speaker 1 (42:23):
Okay, God, that's a terrifying feature. Okay, okay, So just
look at us. The camera's there, John's not there, just
John is that voice in your head?
Speaker 3 (42:34):
Okay? So what's the first question? Hit us?
Speaker 4 (42:36):
Dear John and Daniel I am a longtime John Green reader,
fairly new rad listener, and as I'm listening to this podcast,
I'm realizing how much Daniel inspired the character Chip Martin
and Looking for Alaska. So whether or not John or
Daniel wins the World Cup bet one could argue Daniel
is already in one of Joan's novels, and so it's
automatically Daniel's turn. Please discuss best Jasmine.
Speaker 3 (42:59):
Wow wow, I think you got to explain this. It's funny.
Speaker 2 (43:06):
It's funny that person says that because when my best
friend from high school, Todd Carti, was in the audience
once for a book event, somebody said, who's your favorite
character in Looking for Alaska? And I said, I don't know, Todd,
who's your favorite character? And Todd said, I can't remember
what you called me?
Speaker 3 (43:25):
Oh wow.
Speaker 1 (43:29):
I was told once in writing that if you wanted
to write about somebody without them knowing, just name another
character after them, right, so you wanted.
Speaker 2 (43:39):
To You could also make the case that I was
writing about our friend Chip, since we actually have a
friend named Chip and Chip Martin, you know, I mean
I was writing about all of us. I was writing
about me. I was writing about Sean. I was writing
about you, I was writing about all of us.
Speaker 1 (43:53):
Yeah, there was a there was a noticeable absence of
provings in the novel by Reforc.
Speaker 3 (44:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (44:01):
It was egregious. It was noted. It was definitely noted
by the critics, by the the you know people on Reddit.
Speaker 3 (44:09):
I noticed it. Uh yeah, but I've forgiven you for that, and.
Speaker 1 (44:15):
I'm looking forward to my mention in your upcoming book.
Speaker 2 (44:19):
Yeah. I think that in the upcoming book, I will
definitely mention that you are Peruvian. It will be the
Peruvian movie director Danielle Aller.
Speaker 3 (44:29):
Can I just say the only umbrince? Is that the
right word? Umbrince? Yeah? Sure? Did I take with Jasmine's umbradge? Umbridge? Umbridge? Okay?
Is umbrnts offense? Why don't you say offence? You don't
sound literate here in front of my son. The only offense, yes,
(44:50):
thank you, that I will take with this wonderful note
from our listener Jasmine, is that it does not uh
you know, speculate that I could win uh you know,
the World Cup back. It's just taking me completely or
elliots a if he's participating in it. But like you know,
so I just I should acknowledge that I think that.
Speaker 1 (45:11):
You're the favorite. I agree, I think will be encumbered
by our knowledge and you will be free to pick
Corusaw over Germany in the semi final.
Speaker 3 (45:27):
And who knows. I mean, I'm not an idiot either,
you know. So it's not like I'm you know, making
these predictions just completely throwing all caution to the wind. Yeah,
Sean's not like a nineteen eighty six algorithm, like he's
able to make some choices. Reason in logic do apply? Yeah? Sure,
(45:49):
all right. So wait, so just to nail this down,
I'm not Chick Martin.
Speaker 2 (45:55):
None of us is.
Speaker 3 (45:56):
Oh Man.
Speaker 1 (45:57):
All right, Okay, Well I hope that answers are our
listeners questions. Okay, ady, say what's next?
Speaker 4 (46:05):
This is a long one.
Speaker 3 (46:06):
Okay, is this the Bulgarian question? Yes, okay to our listeners. Kolia, Kolia, Coolio, Colio.
Speaker 1 (46:15):
Colio, so to Kolio, Atlissa and I worked hard on
the pronunciations of these Bulgarian names in preparation for this
recording session, and we're doing our best. I also edited
lightly to to sort of cut out some of the
names because it was it was a challenge Stutchkov is
the one you.
Speaker 4 (46:31):
Need to know too, Stoutchekov and my Mi Mihailov.
Speaker 2 (46:37):
Okay, there you go, hi, John Daniel.
Speaker 4 (46:40):
In the nineteen nineties, we Bulgarians were fortunate to have
an exceptionally talented Generation one superstar Stuchekov, four to five
top players, and we finished fourth at the nineteen ninety
four feet for World Cup. Since then, things have gone
steadily downhill. In the early two thousands, the narrative was
that the remnants of the communist era leadership were holding
Bulgarian football back. In two thousand and five, Borislav Mihaalyov,
(47:05):
the captain of the nineteen ninety four team, was elected
president of the Football Union and held the position for
seventeen years, alongside other members of that same golden generation.
Seventeen years is a long time, and the trajectory of
Bulgarian football during that period was very consistent downward year
after year. And here's my question, how should I feel
about Borislav Mikhalyov, especially now after his passing. How should
(47:29):
I interpret the public condolences from his peers, even critics
who describe him as a great president, when all evidence
would seem to imply the contrary, I'd really value your
perspective on these philosophical questions, knowing they are not simple.
Speaker 3 (47:41):
All the best koil.
Speaker 2 (47:44):
Interesting or not simple. That's a great point. It's really
hard because there used to be an impulse Koyo to
not say bad things about people after they died, and
on Twitter at least that impulse has gone away. And
I don't know if that's good or bad. Like, I
think it's good to have a reckoning with who someone
(48:05):
really was, right, Like I remember when the poet Derek
Walcott passed. You know, it's a brilliant poet who also
caused a lot of harm to a lot of people,
And the tension there was profound and explored, not always
in nuanced ways, but at least explored. And I think
(48:27):
it's important to explore that. I think it's important to
acknowledge that. So I don't think that it's I don't
think you can simply say like, there goes the passing
of a great man. If you feel like it was
more complicated than that.
Speaker 1 (48:41):
What do you think, Daniel, Yeah, I think first of all,
there's no indication in the letter. I don't know much
about Bulgarian football, Beyonnest. Although Stitchkoff was incredible player, incredible player,
but I don't know enough about this the captain of
that team who became the president of the federation to
say what exactly what. There's no occation that he was
(49:02):
a kind of Derek Walcott, you know, kind of predator preditor, right,
It's more like he was incompetent at his job. And
I think there's probably a lot of reasons one could
not have the results that one wants, and they may
or may not be moral failings, you know. Like I
always think about this when I'm if I'm asked to
review a book and I don't like it, and sometimes
(49:25):
you feel like angry that I had to read this book,
that it wasn't good, And then before I write my review,
so I don't come off like a complete asshole, I
have to remind myself that writing a bad novel is
not a moral failure. It's very difficult to write a
good novel. Yeah, it's arguably one of the hardest things
to do. Same Like, similarly, I think it's hard to
(49:47):
run a football federation, or you know, to be a
metronomic midfielder, you know, making an offense tick I think
all these things are hard, and you could be trying
your damnedest and not pull it off, and it's not
a moral failure, So don't I don't think we're in
a situation. There's no indication from Coldia's letter that we're
in a situation where this guy was a bad person.
(50:08):
He just might have been bad at his job despite
his best efforts.
Speaker 2 (50:11):
But seventeen years, so you could say, I think I
think when someone like when someone dies in that situation,
I think you have to say this person tried their
best at a hard job.
Speaker 1 (50:23):
Yeah, And I guess the only critique there that I
think would be fair is if you're bad at your
job despite your best efforts and you stay for seventeen years.
Speaker 3 (50:31):
Yeah, maybe there.
Speaker 1 (50:32):
Was a the a kind of diabolical lack of self
awareness that might have been addressed earlier.
Speaker 2 (50:40):
Right, But it's so hard to stop doing a job
that you're bad at. It's so hard because it's so
hard to have that self awareness. Anyway, I feel bad
for everyone in this situation. But I but I if
I were a Bulgarian football fan, I would be I
would be very resentful. I mean I am very resentful
as an American of the US Soccer Federation, so it's
(51:02):
not hard for me to imagine being angry at the
federation and it's it's president.
Speaker 1 (51:07):
I saw the third place game of the nineteen ninety
four World Cup at a bar in Annapolis, Maryland, and
watched Bulgary get absolutely destroyed, hammered, hammered for nothing.
Speaker 3 (51:22):
Against two I think it was sweet. Is that right?
Speaker 1 (51:26):
I can't remember, but I just remember them getting destroyed
and being like, they shouldn't have a third place game.
You already did so great. You got to the semi finals,
and then for the last two games of your tournament
to be two losses seem super cruel after everything you
did to get there. It was Sweden, by the way,
it was okay, yeah, good memory. Despite my advanced age
(51:51):
aty so I still have a good time. I don't
know that that's that's maybe a question for another day.
But like it is the third place game an act
of cruelty by FIFA, I would argue, yes, yeah, yeah, okay,
next question.
Speaker 4 (52:10):
Hello, John and Daniel. I'm interested in what you think
are unacceptable reasons for supporting a national team. Obviously, nationality ancestry. Friends'
nationalities are good reasons for support. Is a memorable vacation
to a place enough to support a team? What about
a killer national anthem? As an example, I've always been
a fan of the Dutch. There are several interlocking reasons,
(52:30):
but honestly, the most significant is just because Dutch orange
is so beautifully audacious. Still, I'm not so confident in
any of these good these are good reasons to consign
myself to a life of heartbreak. Please discuss best, Ryan.
Speaker 2 (52:45):
I think liking the color is adequate. Actually, it's a
really good color. It's an exceptional orange. It's a great color.
I agree, is it enough? I also think the national
anthem is adequate. You know, the Greek national anthem has
one hundred and seventeen verses. That's a good enough reason.
Speaker 1 (53:00):
Do you know the Spanish national anthem doesn't have lyrics?
Speaker 3 (53:03):
Yes, it's nice, so they can't sing along?
Speaker 1 (53:05):
No, they just kind of hum it's yeah, yeah, yeah.
I find that to be surreal.
Speaker 2 (53:10):
God, I wish we had a better national anthem. This
is one of my fundamental disagreements with most Americans. I
think our national anthem is catastrophically bad, and I think
there are so many good songs about America that we
could be singing. Instead. We could be singing America the Beautiful.
We could be singing God Bless America. We could be
singing this this land is your land. We could be
(53:33):
singing the Battle Hymn of the Republic. I mean there,
it's endless. Yeah, and yet we choose somehow to sing
this song that Francis scott Key wrote that is not good.
The best thing Francis Scott Key ever did was give
Francis Scott Key Fitzgerald his name.
Speaker 1 (53:49):
Oh huh, I didn't realize that's where the name came from.
I think that's a controversial take. I actually like it.
Speaker 3 (53:58):
Well, I hate to say this, but you're wrong and
you're rarely wrong.
Speaker 1 (54:05):
Okay, Okay, that's fair to answer Ryan's question, I think,
I mean, it depends how deep your arbitrary love for
the color orange, Like how far you've taken that. I
don't know if, like you know, I went on vacation,
you know, once to a country, and now I have
(54:25):
the emblem of the Federation like tattooed on my lower back.
Like I think that might be weird, but I think
all like if all things are neutral and you've went
you know, you're watching a group stage game, and you're like,
you know this country that I've that I went to
once in that country that I've never been to, and
you're like, you know, if I want to create a
(54:46):
sporting interest in order to make this game more intriguing
to me, you know, I often will pick a team
and just sort of see what happens. I usually pick
the underdog if I don't know anything. I think that's
just more interesting and more ethically defensible.
Speaker 2 (55:00):
All right, let me say I only have time for
one more question because I have to go to Sierra Leon.
Speaker 1 (55:05):
Oh my gosh. Okay, pick one, pick a good one?
Speaker 4 (55:08):
Difficult, Okay, Dear John and Daniel. During your discussion of
the German team in the recent episode, John mentioned that
it feels surreal seeing Julian Nagel's been coaching because he
still remembers him as a player. That indeed would be
surreal as he never played professional football.
Speaker 3 (55:31):
Good choice, So that's a perfect question. At least sale
you could have picked any question. We got so many
this week. He's mad at you for having to cut
it short straight to the juggular on this one. Keep going, Keep.
Speaker 4 (55:46):
Going, John, probably remembers him from his first Bundesliga head
coach job at Hoffenheim, which Naglesman started when he was
twenty nine and therefore younger than many players. So here's
my question what makes a good coach and the fact
that many of the best coaches were not old class
players themselves. Keep up the good work, best, Mattias.
Speaker 1 (56:03):
Before you answer, can I just say something? Because the
setup was like, John, why are you hallucinating? Like to
at GBT, But the question was very respectful, so respectful
after having slapped you around for once again making shit up,
much like the game that I allegedly attended with you
at the World Cup. You're you just make shit up
(56:26):
like a fiction writer.
Speaker 3 (56:27):
I do, and I married.
Speaker 2 (56:28):
I married blessedly to an absolutely committed fact checker. And
so I'll give you an example. I recently told a friend.
I was like, you know, I had meningitis, which is true.
I got meningitis on a trip with Bill Gates. I
got meningitis in Ethiopia, and I was traveling with the
(56:49):
folks from the Gates Foundation, including Bill Gates. And when
I got meningitis, Bill Gates sent me an orchid to
say he was sorry. And I was like, and look
at this beautiful orkid that Bill Gates sennas And Sarah
was like, that's not Bill Gates's orchid. That's a completely
different orchids from years later. Ah, you don't know how orkids.
Speaker 3 (57:13):
Work, Sarah. Just let me have this, just let me know.
Speaker 2 (57:16):
But I actually appreciate the fact checking because I am
such a wild fabulouist. I need someone in my life
who grounds me a little bit. So thank you for
that incredibly generous correction. Like if i'd been I would
have dunked on me so much harder than that.
Speaker 3 (57:35):
In the times, I love it. I love it.
Speaker 1 (57:39):
So it's now the respectful question that came out of
that kind of swipe at you, respectful swipe. Yeah, what
makes a great coach, especially, you know, if they haven't
come out of the game as players themselves.
Speaker 2 (57:54):
I've only observed up close coaches in the third tier
of English soccer, and not sure that that that I
can answer the question with any any clarity. But I
think there is a mix of tactics and and and
being able to understand human nature. I think that there
are a wide variety of ways you can understand human nature,
(58:17):
like the way you're gonna clop coaches is very different
from the way that say, Poachattino coaches or Jose Mourinho coaches.
But Jose Mourinho, Sorry, I know, I know Daniel's going
to correct me anyway, So I'm just going to get
out in front of it.
Speaker 1 (58:33):
I feel like, but Ti has already corrected you so brilliantly.
I don't want to It's redundant at this point to
correct you.
Speaker 2 (58:41):
But I think you do have to understand people, and
then I think you have to have a good tactical
understanding of your level of football.
Speaker 1 (58:47):
What do you think, Daniel, Yeah, I think a good
coach protects as players. I think a good coach, you know,
builds them up when they're suffering, and also takes the blame,
you know, and doesn't throw them under the bus. And
in addition, having the you know, the tactile acumen and
understanding who's peaking at the right moments. So yeah, I
(59:11):
think all of those things are are true. The emotional,
I think psychological side is probably under rated. Yeah, because
all of these guys at that level are elite.
Speaker 3 (59:24):
They're incredible athletes.
Speaker 1 (59:25):
They have they have the skills, they're technically gifted, but
the psychological aspect of and here's my sixth mention of
Arsenal is for example, what I think separates Pep from
uh from Arteta who hasn't been able to rouse his
players in the last six games when a title was
in their grasp.
Speaker 2 (59:45):
But I think there's also the pressure that comes with
that that can bring you down that two percent, right,
Like I've I've been thinking about that a lot with
AFC Wimbledon, that like, what's what's really where they're really
struggling is they've been pushed down that two percent by
the pressure of the prospect of relegation. And that's the
two percent that's the difference between a two to one
win and two one loss.
Speaker 3 (01:00:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:00:05):
Absolutely, uh, thank you Eliseo for curating these questions for us. Yeah,
welcome and John have safe travels to Sierra Leone.
Speaker 2 (01:00:14):
Thank you. People call it Africa's Peru because they've also
never qualified for the World Cup.
Speaker 3 (01:00:22):
We have qualified for the World Cup. Yeah, I'm a
fabulous Daniel. I'm having a good time over here.
Speaker 1 (01:00:30):
I thought you were gonna say, because we also have tuberculosis,
you do, We certainly.
Speaker 3 (01:00:35):
Do lots of it. Yes, Yes, okay, safe travels.
Speaker 1 (01:00:38):
We'll see you next week. Thank everyone for listening. Remember
to rate and review us. Thank you Sean and Kurt
and behieb and we'll see you next week.
Speaker 3 (01:00:46):
And most importantly, thank you Elise.
Speaker 4 (01:00:48):
You're welcome.
Speaker 3 (01:00:49):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (01:00:49):
Oh it's a great joy to be with you.
Speaker 3 (01:00:51):
Yes, wonderful, wonderful. All right, see you next week.
Speaker 1 (01:00:54):
Thanks everybody,
Welcome to the Way, and I'm Danielle Alercon, I'm John Green,
and we have special episodes today. But before we get started,
I wanted to ask our listeners. You know, John, this
is a new podcast. We're trying to grow an audience. Yeah,
and I think it's worth asking our loyal listeners. And
I know they're out there because you send us so
many emails to rate and review our show and to
(00:27):
tell your friends about it, and that would be really helpful.
So I wanted to say that at the top, John,
we're gonna do something a little bit different, different than
usual today. We're not going to tell a story, We're
not going to do a deep dive into a country,
and we have a special guest at the end.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Really special guests, very.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
Special, I would say. But so you did want to
talk about something that I think is unique and.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
Complicated, something that happens once every four years. And I
wanted to ask you about this because you are yourself
an a lad athlete and so you might have some
insight for me. So the Liverpool, the great Liverpool player
Ugo Akitik, just tore his achilles and it was a
brutal injury. It was awful to watch. It was heartbreaking,
(01:18):
But part of what made it so heartbreaking was that
Akitik was realizing in the same moment that the rest
of us were, that, in addition to facing a very
long period of recovery and potentially, you know, struggling to
ever be the same player again, he was going to
miss the World Cup. And this is something that happens
(01:41):
in every World Cup cycle. I remember when Sergio Ramos
injured Mohammed Salad in the Champions League final. Salah went
off in tears because he knew that he was at
least going to be compromised for the World Cup and
would at least miss some of the games. And indeed
he wasn't a particularly impactful player in that World Cup
(02:03):
and it just it just breaks my heart and it
makes me wonder, from your perspective.
Speaker 3 (02:10):
As an elite athlete, Yeah, as.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
An elite athlete, do you think players have that in
their minds? Like, let's say you're Liverpool and you've basically
locked up the Champions League and you're not going to
win anything this year, and so your last four games
are being played for pride and glory, not for any
particular matter of import like Is it in your mind
that if you get injured, you're going to miss the
(02:33):
World Cup, this thing you've been dreaming about since you
were literally two or three years old.
Speaker 3 (02:37):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
Or let's say you're Arsenal and your season's over and
you're basically not playing for anything anymore. You probably are
declan Rice and you've run the equivalent of seven thousand
kilometers over the course of the last nine months.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
I'll tell you what, if you had eleven Deklan rices,
you would win the Premier League.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
That's fair enough, fair enough, but we don't. That will
be my only illusion in this episode to what happened
this weekend. So uh yeah, I think it's in your mind.
I think it's got to be in your mind. And
I I'm glad you mentioned the you know, the much
beloved and world renowned good guy, Sirghill Ramos, who's probably
(03:21):
injured more players and affected more careers negatively than any
other player, say for Pepe, his his partner in the midfield. Uh,
I mean in the in the defense of Madrid in
those days. Look, it's impossible not to feel compassion towards
a player like a kit k.
Speaker 3 (03:40):
You know, I I.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
It is one of those really poignant moments, and that
it's happening so close to the tournament. Worre just just
you know, weeks away literally from the beginning of the
tournament at this point, and uh, and to know that
this might be it, and also you know you might
not get another chance, especially if he played for France,
like in four years there will be another crop of
(04:05):
incredible young players pounding at the door and possibly you know.
Speaker 3 (04:09):
Keeping you out of the team.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
Yeah, for Liverpool, I think he's been the best signing
of the summer, which was probably surprising to a lot
of people, given who else.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
Surprising to me. Yeah, but a bit of a low
bar to jump over, it must.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
Be said, yes, and now in his injured state he
could not jump over it. Indeed, indeed, Jesus, that's a
little dark.
Speaker 3 (04:31):
Sorry.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
I pulled up the list John of some of the
kind of potential high profile absentees this year and actually
should say, my assistant Eliseo pulled up this list. One
fourth Argentina out, Christian Romero from Argentina possibly out. Brazil,
Rodrigo and Rafina are possible. Well, Rodrigo definitely is out.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
I think the law of Rodrigo I mean, in addition
to the personal heartbreak of Rodrigo and his family and
his friends and everything. I think that's really damaging for Brazil.
Speaker 3 (05:09):
Yeah I do too.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
I do too, and Rafina if he doesn't make it
would be I mean, he's a class player man Croatia Guardiol,
one of the best defenders in the last tournament, one
of the best defenders in the Premier League.
Speaker 3 (05:23):
He's a doubt England.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
James Madison, I haven't seen him play in eighteen months.
This poor guy has Yeah, well he's injury.
Speaker 3 (05:34):
He's been injured. Yeah, yeah, he's been injured.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
I think that he would have probably been a fairly
peripheral player to England. I don't think that he's as
essential as someone like Raffine is to Brazil. But I
think that, you know, you always want to have all.
And again, there's there's the there's the part of you
that cares about how the team does, and then there's
the part of you that cares about the player, and
(05:58):
the part of you that cares about the player heartbroken
regardless because he would have been in the team and
he would have had a chance to play, you know,
play in the World Cup. And that's I mean, you
and I date our lives by every four years the
World Cup. But if you're a professional football player, you
really date your life. But I mean it's the defining
(06:19):
opportunity of your career.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
No, and you and I as fans have you know,
a dozen or more World Cups?
Speaker 3 (06:26):
As players? You know you have two, three if you're lucky,
you know.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
Six, if five if you're oh yeah, infinite number if
you're a Because Mexico only has one goalkeeper every two
per century, apparently you know who could have used James
Madison is Tottenham. But that's another story that's very true France.
We mentioned I did want to mention and this was
(06:55):
a story that happened while I was traveling that apparently,
you know, France could could have been without Imbappe. He's
had knee problems and one of the reasons they had
this problem was because the crack medical team at Real
Madrid we did an MRI on the wrong knee of
killing Abappe and told him he was fine to play,
and in fact he wasn't because they checked the wrong
(07:16):
knee and.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
When they checked the right knee it turned out that
there were some issues. That is an epic failure, Like,
if that happens to me, it's a significant medical failure.
To have it happen to literally killing in Bompe is
just beyond the pale. I mean, everyone should be fired.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
Everyone should be fired and rehired at Tottenham Mexico. Marcel
Ruiz at Snalvarez Netherlands, Mattiste de Licht and Justin Clybert
are both doubts. And this is one that I want
to mention as an Arsenal fan. Michel Marino, wonderful midfield player, solid,
so versatile, he can score, he can play anywhere in
(07:57):
the midfield and upfront, and he's a doubt with a
weird foot injury that kind of came out of nowhere.
Speaker 3 (08:04):
So it's sad.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
It's sad because also as a fan, you want to
see the best players in the best shape of their lives,
playing at the very highest level. And I think there's
something here that we should mention John, which is that
these guys are just getting played into the ground.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
I mean, I was watching the Arsenal versus Manchester City
game and thinking about how tired those Arsenal players look.
The Manchester City players don't look that tired because they're
not actually human, they're automatons. But the Arsenal players looked exhausted,
and you know, at the end of a run, you
could see them pulling on their shorts, you could see
them leaning over. It's interesting. I mean, as a fan
(08:46):
of third potentially soon to be fourth tier English soccer,
those players play just as many games, run just as far,
and you don't see it quite as much. And maybe
I don't think it's I think the fitness levels in
(09:07):
the Premier League are obviously higher, the fitness levels in
the Champions League are obviously higher than they are in
the third or fourth tier of you know, some some
random countries football league. But that's always been what I've
my response to it. When when coaches or players at
the top levels say, well, we simply play too much,
(09:28):
my response has always been, well, you know, down in
the third division, nobody says, like, forty six games is
too many. They play forty six games a season, plus
an FA Cup run if they're lucky, plus the league
Cup games, plus some random cups, and they end up
playing fifty five games a season and nobody spares a
thought for them and making you know, one hundred thousand
(09:49):
bucks a year. But I'm starting to think that there's
clearly something wrong with fixture congestion, not just because of
the injuries, but because of the quality of the football
at the end of the season. It's it's really not there.
I mean, yeah, it's not there universally. Like watching Liverpool
versus Everton this weekend, I was thinking the quality is
(10:10):
different than it was in October.
Speaker 3 (10:13):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
I mean, top players in Europe haven't had a summer
off and.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
That's what's that's a key insight is that they don't
get a summer off because they're either traveling with their
club or they're in the Euros of the World Cup.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
Right and the Club World Cup from last season. Again,
you look at a team like Chelsea and they've fallen off.
Cole Palmer is a great player and he, you know,
hasn't been the same since that tournament.
Speaker 3 (10:43):
Yeah, so.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
You kind of feel for these guys because their careers
are so short they last. You know, if you're lucky,
you get seven eight years a decade and that's it.
So they want to take advantage of it. But then
they get played overplayed and there's a limit I worry about.
I'll tell you how I worry about I worry about
Lamina Mal. He's yeah, and everyone's like, oh, he's you know, seventeen,
(11:10):
he's eighteen.
Speaker 3 (11:11):
He's a phenomenon.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
But then you look at Bukayasaka, who came up at
that age, and you know, he's twenty four now and
he's had an injury plagued season and is not the
same player who was two years ago. If you start
at age sixteen, it doesn't mean that you're going to
play till age thirty two, and it means that you
might be done at age twenty five, right.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
I think a lot about those young phenoms. It's almost
like being a child prodigy. Oh you know, you think
about the people who bombed out, or the people who
didn't live up to their promise, or the wonder kids
who didn't, the starboys who didn't become great players, and
then you think about the ones who did and a
lot of times you're right, they're not great into their thirties,
(11:55):
and some of that has to be the way that
they've been been utilized or played. I worry about those
people because they never got to be kids.
Speaker 3 (12:06):
You know.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
I worry about Lamina Mal because he almost has like
a justin Bieber child star phenomenon where he never got
to be fifteen, not in a meaningful way, because he
was already on the fringes of Barcelona's first team.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
John is someone who did get to be fifteen. Uh, Like,
what exactly is there to recommend being fifteen in your estimation?
From your own exploi uce I, there were aspects of
being fifteen that that I didn't love. As a friend
of ours from our high school once told me that
(12:42):
place saved my life.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
It also did lots of other things.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
Right, yeah, I mean, okay, So to argue against myself,
I would you know, perhaps you could say that the
parts the other things are what you wrote, you know,
your first novel about Yeah, and maybe you know gave
you sort of a jumpstar on your on your on
your literary career. Like I don't know that la Mignamal
(13:08):
is going to write a great novel about his troubled youth.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
Although he could he could write a great novel about
being fifteen and being on the edge of Barcelle in
his first team. Are you kidding? I'd read that, but
I think that yeah, I mean, certainly it gave me,
in particular a lot of gifts that it it, you
know that that are particular to my experience. I do
think that it's developmentally important to be an adolescent. As
(13:31):
hard as it is, I think that it's helpful. It
makes it so that you're not an adolescent when you're
an adult.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
Yeah, that's true. There's a kid named Julian Hall. I
don't know if you hear you're following MLS. I believe
he might be top scorer of a New York Red Bull.
He's a real one touch in the box poacher. He's
super quick, he's got an instinct for goal. He's like sixteen,
I think seventeen maybe. But I've been hearing about him
(13:59):
for years because my son's. One of my son's friends
played with him and they're they're they're close friends, and
you know, everyone's always been talking about him, and I
just wonder, you know, even for him, the pressure playing
in a you know, uh in in MLS, which is
not the star league like La Liga or you know,
(14:20):
Maxdelman in the Premier League. It just it's it's a lot,
you know. Yeah, you're right, he doesn't he's not gonna
go to prom. He's not even gonna get to go
to like a like a party at someone's house when
the parents are out of town, which is like this
like normal high school thing to do. You know, Like
he's not gonna have those milestones that you were just
talking about.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
The other thing he's not going to have. And we
it turned out that this was not a segment about
injuries so much as it was a segment about trying
to psychoanalyze the mind of elite footballers. But the other
thing he's not going to have is he's not going
to have an experience of being anonymous.
Speaker 3 (14:57):
Like HM.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
One of the things about being fifteen or sixteen years
old is that you don't have to worry about anyone
but your parents and the police caring about what you do.
And that's not the case for the meinam al right,
Like if he gets drunk at a party, it's national news,
(15:21):
international yeah, international news, Whereas when we got drunk at parties,
it was mostly it wasn't news. I never got drunk
at any party, correct, especially given our special guests presence Exactly,
it's important it's important to note that Daniel was never
never involved in any of that. Shenanigan's Sean on the
(15:44):
other hand.
Speaker 1 (15:44):
My god, incorrigible, incordibal a miracle he survived that rowdy adolescence. Yeah,
I find all this interesting, and I think we have
to worry. You know, the connection between what we're discussing
now and the injuries is sort of like the concern
(16:05):
for player welfare, which I think is something that we
don't talk about enough because we assume that all of
these guys are super well paid, pampered millionaires whose job
all they got to do is kick the ball under
the net, and we don't worry so much about their
mental health, their physical health, or their their long term health.
You know, they're their long term health, you know when
they're our age, you know, which which is tough. I
(16:28):
do think John, if you go back to writing young
adult novels, maybe you could write one about an elite
athlete in one of these situations. And I'm happy to,
you know, sort of give you the insight as an
elite athlete.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
That's what I was going to say is I think
you're almost more qualified to do it because of your
incredible skill as a high school athlete. Maybe you can
have a little bit of insight into what it's like
to be so special that nobody at school treats you normally.
Speaker 3 (16:54):
Yeah, it was rough. It was rough. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
Let's take a break and we'll come back with the
discussion about another thing that's been bothering me about about
elite sports.
Speaker 3 (17:07):
Yeah, we'll be right back.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
All right, we're back on the way, and John, I
want to talk about something that is bad. Like many
bad American things, this bad thing emerges from New Jersey.
Speaker 3 (17:34):
So the backstory is this.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
In twenty twelve, then a New Jersey governor, Chris Christie,
was tired of Nevada being the only state in the
Union allowed to take money from working people, and so
he signed a bill legalizing gambling in state license sites.
This case naturally wound up with the Supreme Court, and there,
in their infinite wisdom, without giving much thought to the
(17:56):
kind of social implications, they ruled kind of a narrow
regulatory on the narrow regulatory concern and basically said, the
states and not the Feds are the ones who have
the authority regular gambling. And that was kind of the
beginning of where we are today. And what I mean
(18:16):
by that that decision came in twenty eighteen. What I
mean by that is that gambling now is everywhere. It's everywhere,
not just in sports, but kind of in all aspects
of our society and culture. And it's spread, you know,
not just across the United States, across the world. I've
been living in Bogoada. Every ad at halftime, literally every
(18:40):
ad is about a different gambling site.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
It's the same in England. I mean it's it's every.
Speaker 3 (18:46):
Ad, every ad.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
Eleven of the twenty Premier League teams have betting sponsors
on the front of their shirt. And this is all
all come to mind. We've had a number of betting
scandals in the uh uh an NBA, in MLB, you know, we.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
Had We should also mention that there's a betting scandal
related to oil prices and the closing of this trait
of horror moves. I mean there there are betting scandals,
not just in sports, but in anything that can be
speculated about.
Speaker 1 (19:20):
Yes, that's like a whole different issue because the level
of corruption that we have not yet uncovered about, say,
insiders betting with inside information on things like we're gonna
bomber on today are uh that has yet to be uncovered.
Who's making money, but they've made millions and millions and
millions of dollars off of inside information of US foreign policy.
(19:44):
But I feel like that's that's like kind of a.
Speaker 3 (19:47):
Level of outside the scope of the away end.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
Yes, that's the the away, away end. All of this
came to mind because I read this really great piece
in The Atlantic called My Year as a Degenerate Gambler
by the writer M McKay coppins, and he writes this,
practically overnight, we took an ancient vice long regarded as
soul rotting and civilizationally ruinous, and put it on everyone's
phone and made it as normal and frictionless as checking
(20:12):
the weather. What could possibly go wrong? He writes this
really brilliant essay kind of a deep dive into sports
gambling culture and tracks his own sort of like descent
into this world. He begins by saying, like, I'm not
(20:33):
the addictive type. You know this won't be a problem,
and then you know, tracks about how, over the course
of a year researching this gambling takes over his life
and you know, ruins I wouldn't say ruined, at least
colors a lot of really kind of sacricyanct family interactions, friendships,
(20:55):
and crucially the way he enjoys sports. So there's this
one scene that I want to mention John because I
think understand what I'm talking about. He goes to one
of these like sport books where he can watch games,
and he's like, oh, finally get to watch games with
people who care. And he finds that everyone's watching games
for different reasons, because everyone has these little micro bets
on things that are might or may or may not happen.
(21:18):
And he writes, this gambling has made us all care
much more about the games, but it just also atomized us,
taking the last and purest expression of American monoculture and
turning it into a hyper individualized, every man for himself
portfolio of micro bets. I hate gambling. I hate fantasy football.
I hate watching a game and instead of just caring
(21:38):
about if my team wins or loses, caring if a
player on a team that I hate might score a goal,
like I'd find out to be just a perversion of fandom.
And the stakes are huge. The stakes are huge because look,
in twenty seventeen, American's legally bet four point nine billion
on sports. Last year, that number was one hundred and
(21:59):
sixty billion dollars for a percentage of people who get
involved in gambling, they're going.
Speaker 3 (22:04):
To lose big. They're going to lose big.
Speaker 1 (22:08):
Ninety percent of sportsbooks revenue comes from less than ten
percent of their users. So those people who are like
losing their wages, their pensions, their college their kids college funds,
you know. And then the impacts of course are downstream
are like, you know, their families, their relationships, their jobs,
their futures. You know, it's just a tragedy. And I
(22:28):
I really sort of like.
Speaker 3 (22:31):
Hate that.
Speaker 1 (22:32):
It dilutes the experience of being a fan, of of
of watching a game and knowing what you want from
that game, and the simplicity of it. It it just
ruins it. I hate it, and I wanted to know
what you think.
Speaker 2 (22:49):
Well, we've talked before about that. One of the things
that football provides for both of us is a purity
of emotion. You know, you're simply sad when Arsenal get
beat by Manchester City.
Speaker 3 (23:04):
See it didn't happen.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
Yeah, you're simply happy when Arsenal win the Champions League
in a month, and you you do dilute that. I
think there are people who can play fantasy football responsibly,
and you know, like I'll give you an example. So
I'm in an IndyCar Fantasy league. I'm in the only
(23:28):
IndyCar Fantasy league in the world. There's five of us,
and we had to invent the rules because there is
no rules for IndyCar Fantasy League and watching IndyCar. I'm
going to say this carefully. Outside of the Indianapolis five
hundred is a bit of a chore, and it allows
(23:49):
me to be invested in watching the sport in a
different way. And I think that's okay. I know what
you mean about the added I know what the writer
means about the atomization of experience, and it is true,
like you want everybody to be every Green Bay Packers
fan in the stadium to be watching rooting for the
green Bay Packers to win, not rooting for a particular
(24:12):
number of points or a particular number of yards thrown
by the quarterback, and that it does dilute the shared
experience of a shared experience, and that concerns me because
we have so few shared experiences left. I absolutely know
what you're talking about there. I think there is I
think that there is a difference between the radical ostracization
(24:37):
of a lot of sports scandaling versus the community building
potential of a fantasy league. So you and I were
in a fantasy league several years ago with a bunch
of writer friends. And for me it was incredible because
not because I didn't care if I want or lost.
In fact, I don't think I ever updated my team,
(24:58):
but the email threat was incredible, like, for sure, so cool.
Speaker 3 (25:03):
It made me feel so cool.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
To be on that email thread. And I would participate
in it very sparingly, and when I did very carefully,
like I would reread my emails thirty times before I
sent them to make sure that they were as funny
as possible.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
Yeah, when you're in an email thread with like Robbie
a Lamadine National Book Award winner and Sasha m On
mac MacArthur genius, Uh, you're.
Speaker 2 (25:26):
Kemuel Alarcon MacArthur genius. I mean, why don't you ever
talk about the fact that you're a MacArthur genius. I
would talk about it non stop.
Speaker 1 (25:33):
Yeah, Look, it was. It was a beautiful community of writers.
Speaker 3 (25:37):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (25:38):
So that's what I'm talking about. When it builds community,
I'm all for it. And when it ostracizes you from
your community by making you by by garnishing your wages,
by ruining your relationships by you know that, then then
it's devastating and there's no question that the harm is
greater than the good, right, Like we could have had
(26:00):
an email thread where everybody rooting for Arsenal is rooting
for Arsenal and everybody rooting for Liverpool is rooting for Liverpool,
and it's a great email thread, you know, and it
doesn't involve whether or not Airlin Holland scores a goal
or whatever. And that's that to me is the central
question when it comes to sports is does this deepen
(26:23):
the community ties that people feel toward each other and
with each other. Does it make them want to work
with and for each other in pursuit of a greater
good or greater human connection, or does it make them
feel further apart from each other. And when it makes
them feel further apart from each other, we've lost the
whole point of sports. There is no reason to do it.
Speaker 1 (26:43):
Yeah, yeah, I mean that's what worries me. It worries
me that that we're not able to focus on like
that it's not enough, Like why isn't it Why isn't
it enough just to watch the game and see who wins,
as opposed to like, why do you have to add
all these other things when the game itself should be enough.
Speaker 2 (27:06):
Yeah, the game itself should be enough, and the game
itself is enough if you let yourself get invested. Yet
I've really been experimenting with the Danielle Alercone theory of
(27:28):
don't let myself get negatively invested in emotional football experiences.
And the team that I sponsor, AFC Wimbledon, have lost
six straight games and are on the edge of relegation.
They need to win one of their last two games,
but there's no indication that they can because they have
an injury crisis and lots of other and the lowest
budget in the league and everything else. And they lost
(27:48):
on Saturday, And I was like, I'm going to channel
my inner Alercone and not get emotionally invested in this
and not let it ruin myself Saturday in Richmond, Virginia
speaking to all these people and having a lovely opportunity
to speak to lots of students and adults, and I'm
not gonna let it ruin that. I'm not gonna let
(28:10):
it ruin time with my family. But it did Daniel,
it did, it did. I was negatively impacted. I didn't
want to be, but I was. I was like, I can't.
Speaker 3 (28:20):
It's so hard to get promoted. It's so hard to
get promoted. After you get relegated, it's so hard to
get back up there.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
Tottenham are going to experience this. It's harder than you
think it's going to be.
Speaker 1 (28:33):
We have a question about this in the mailback section.
I'm gonna give you my experience because, as you know,
on Sunday, I'm told that Arsenal lost to man City.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
Yeah, you were only going to reference it once, but
I took the over. I actually just made a hundred
bucks off DraftKings, the polymarket or whatever. I'll tell you what, man,
I didn't watch the game.
Speaker 3 (28:57):
I knew no.
Speaker 1 (28:57):
I did not watch the game. I added a cafe.
I read a sci fi novel set in space.
Speaker 3 (29:04):
Wow, was it a good book? Do you want to
mention it?
Speaker 1 (29:06):
It's an Orbital Men Booker Prize winner from twenty twenty four.
Halfway through, it's quite good. And the reason that I
did that is just because I knew it was going
to ruin my day and soon I had just thrived
in New York and we wanted to. I wanted to
have a day, you know. I didn't want Yeah on me,
(29:27):
and I just knew that I wouldn't be able to
handle it, you know. It was too anxiety inducing. And
I turned my phone off, read this book and it
didn't ruin my day. It didn't ruin my day.
Speaker 2 (29:39):
I almost texted you and Sean a joke, and then
I was like, no, it's probably not the right vibe.
Speaker 1 (29:47):
I will say that it hurt very badly. I care
very deeply about this team, and I have been, you know,
like I have to put up with all the nonsense
of other fans being petty, and it's fine. I like
Arsenal deserve it. I think that's totally fine. I don't
take offense to it. I think it's we've earned it.
Speaker 2 (30:05):
You know.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
But I just didn't want to go through the two
hours of hoping and wondering what was going to happen
in the anxiety. I felt it was going to be
too much for my middle aged heart. And I didn't
watch it, and I feel okay about it, and as
a result, it didn't ruin my day. It ruined my
(30:27):
day a little bit, A little bit A tiny little bit,
a tiny little bit. I was very I was sad,
but you know I was functional, you know, right, right,
I functioned throughout the day. I just kept thinking, Yeah,
I functioned. I functioned on Saturday. I got through the day,
and I had a lot of joy in the day. Actually,
it was just they're working in the background. Was always
(30:49):
this sadness. But you're right, the game should be enough.
The game is enough. Yeah, and I think that. Look,
the reason these companies are able to advertise the way
that they do is precisely because they make, you know,
if there's one hundred and eighty billion dollars of legal
(31:09):
gambling a year, they make you know, twenty billion dollars,
and you know that's a pretty good return on your investment.
Speaker 3 (31:18):
Well, look, here's a couple other facts. Men.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
You have to win fifty two point five percent of
your bets just to break even. That's right, and that's
before taxes.
Speaker 3 (31:27):
Right.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
Here's here's a shocking statistic, again from the Mickay Coppins article,
which I highly recommend. More than a third of men's
Division I college basketball players say they've received abusive messages
from gamblers. Twenty one percent of gamblers themselves admit to
lashing out at athletes in person or online. There's even
a I mean, you know, imagine you're like a nineteen
(31:49):
year old player at like Wichita State, and you miss
a free throw that someone had a parlay on, and
then you're getting abusive emails from randoms like people who
would never you know, who are probably normal, decent people
in their real life, but their entire expectation of the
enjoyment of sport has been distorted and mutated into this
(32:13):
kind of vile, you know, lecherous greed, and you're and
you're find yourself writing a hateful email to a nineteen
year old like what's wrong with you?
Speaker 3 (32:23):
You know what?
Speaker 2 (32:24):
This takes us back, though, to the question of the
well being of people and the ways that which I think,
especially with the professionalization of college basketball college football, now
that those players are paid, and sometimes paid very well,
there is a feeling not just among gamblers, I don't think,
but among lots of people that if you are paid well,
(32:45):
then part of the and this may be getting into
some personal territory, Daniel, but part of the social benefit
that the public gets to experience from you being paid
well is the right to abuse you. It is the
right to you know, yell at you and tell you
(33:06):
that you're a terrible person. And it's it's punching up
to do that because they're rich, right, Like it's punching
up to tell Lebron James's son that he's a nepo
baby because he's wealthy. It's punching up to tell some
nineteen year old who plays for Wichita State that he's
an you know, a piece of crap because he missed
a free throw. And that's just not true. I mean,
(33:29):
it's it's true. You're absolutely punching up if you punch
up at me or Daniel, Like, you know, we're in
our forties and have stable, functional relationships and you know
a sense of self and everything. But you're not punching
up when you say that to a professional athlete who's
twenty two years old. I'm sorry, You're you're you're making
the world worse.
Speaker 1 (33:50):
Yeah, I also think about this, and you've seen this phenomenon, right,
So in the real world, you have a bad day
at work, it was a terrible meeting, you had a presentation,
you blew it, and then afterwards you're like, oh, and
you go out and get a drink with some friends
and to commiserate, right, normal, No one thinks bat's an eye,
right because you're, like, you had a rough day. So
(34:10):
let's say you're an Arsenal player and you lost to
Man City and you you know, missed a golden chance
to tie the game. You know, minute, I've been told.
Speaker 2 (34:22):
This is now three times. Yeah, but yeah, go on.
Speaker 1 (34:26):
And I'm not saying this happened, but like, what if
after that game you go out to get a drink
with some friends to talk about your feelings, and then
someone takes a picture of you, and then it's a scandal.
It's like right, you know, and you know, twenty six
year old, you know, highly paid Arsenal players celebrating their
loss to whatever. This isn't This didn't happen necessarily, but
you've seen it before where players, young men athletes get
(34:52):
vilified for doing something that's absolutely normal, which is like
going out with friends after a disappointment, not to celebrate,
but just to like let steam because it's hard, you're
under pressure all the time. And they get criticized as
if they didn't care about the team, as if you know,
going out to a bar, whether you're you know, getting
(35:12):
hammered or not is incompatible with winning, you know, when
we know.
Speaker 3 (35:16):
From history it's not. I don't know.
Speaker 1 (35:18):
It just seems to me that that athletes are both
incredibly privileged and also help to these impossible standards that
they aren't allowed to be human.
Speaker 3 (35:26):
You know.
Speaker 2 (35:27):
Yeah, well they're really not allowed to be human in
some fundamental way, which is that we don't think of
them as people. This is one of the great benefits
of lower league football is that you do think of
them as people, because they're in the bar afterwards with you,
they're on the train home from the away game with
you sometimes, and so you have to think of them
(35:48):
as people. But still the lower league athletes receive all
kinds of abuse. And you know, the other thing about
it is that sometimes people will say, like, oh, I
should be allowed to say whatever I want on Twitter
and tag this person, you know, tag Sokka or whatever
and say whatever I want, because like, he shouldn't be looking,
you know, he shouldn't look. Well you try, You tried
(36:11):
being twenty four years old and not looking at your replies?
Like you try that? Yeah, show me how easy it is.
Because I remember when I was in middle school, I was.
This is going to surprise you, But I was a
pretty big nerd. It was really really unpopular, and I
was bullied heavily bullied physically, emotionally. It was really really
(36:33):
difficult for me before I got to our school where
I became immensely popular and beloved. But I remember I
had I had these two popular kids who would carpool
with me, and I remember wanting to put a recording
device in there in the car so that I could
(36:56):
hear what they were saying about me, so that I
could understand what was wrong with me. I really wanted
to understand what was wrong with me, why I was
getting bullied so much, because it just I just couldn't
figure out how to make it not happen. And Twitter
and read It and Facebook are recording devices where everyone
(37:17):
will tell any famous person exactly what they think of
them all the time. And the idea that it's easy
to resist that is just ludicrous. It is really hard
to resist it.
Speaker 3 (37:28):
That's very well said.
Speaker 1 (37:29):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 3 (37:31):
Do you read your reviews my reviews?
Speaker 1 (37:35):
Well, I don't write books anymore, Uh, John.
Speaker 2 (37:37):
No, but you know what I mean, Like, do you
read reviews of the away ND? Do you read reviews
of radio and Viulante.
Speaker 1 (37:44):
Yeah occasionally, No, occasionally I do.
Speaker 2 (37:46):
But it also I just want to stop you for
a second because you just said something that I strongly
disagree with.
Speaker 3 (37:53):
Oh go for you.
Speaker 2 (37:54):
Yeah what that you don't write books anymore? You better
write at least one more book?
Speaker 1 (37:59):
Oh oh yeah, And that's actually a nice place to land,
because there is one kind of wager, one kind of
gambling that is okay, which is if you, as a novelist,
bet against your friend who has also written novels in
the past, about who will better predict the outcome of
the World Cup, and on the line is a mention
(38:20):
in an forthcoming novel. I think we can all agree
that kind of gambling is allowed and.
Speaker 2 (38:25):
Probably beneficial to the world, precisely because it brings a
community together. To go back to my point earlier, yeah,
so you have to write at least one more book.
Speaker 3 (38:35):
I will, okay.
Speaker 2 (38:36):
I mean I'm going to be personally devastated just because
I love your writing, but also because you will have
flagrantly failed the wager. Well, we're assuming you're assuming you're
going to win, which no, I think Sean's going to
win because he knows the least about football.
Speaker 3 (38:54):
That's true. That's true.
Speaker 1 (38:56):
Maybe we can bring him our special guests in on
the wager and we can all wager, and then we'll
have even more novels to dissect and to find our
mentions in.
Speaker 2 (39:05):
I love that, and I love the idea of him participating.
And I also just want to say, for the record,
I remember you told me like years ago that you
were going to be a journalist and that you weren't
going to write novels for a while.
Speaker 3 (39:20):
And I remember.
Speaker 2 (39:21):
Thinking like, and I may have even said this to you,
like that's the wrong decision, Like you're a brilliant fiction writer,
and you should write fiction. But actually I was wrong,
Like you're also a brilliant journalist, and you should continue
to do what you do and what you love to
do and what you want to do. But you do
have to write one more book.
Speaker 1 (39:41):
I will, I will, And I just want to say
that recording this podcast has been just being bullied with
praise episode after episode, and it's doing wonders for my ego.
And I want to thank you for always being so
kind and generous with your compliments.
Speaker 2 (39:53):
I mean it, I mean I've admired both of you,
both you and Shawn since I was fifteen. I've only
admired Kurt for the last like eight weeks or so,
but I admire everybody who makes this podcast.
Speaker 1 (40:07):
That's great, and I'm glad you never were able to
slip the recording device into the carpool and here, which I'm.
Speaker 3 (40:12):
Sting man, it would not have been good news.
Speaker 1 (40:15):
All right, let's take a quick break and we'll be
back with the mail bag and our special guests. We're
back at the Away and we have a special guest, Eddisel.
Speaker 2 (40:37):
Hello.
Speaker 3 (40:38):
Hello, how you doing? Man? Good? Who are you?
Speaker 4 (40:41):
I'm your son?
Speaker 3 (40:42):
There you go, There you go?
Speaker 2 (40:43):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (40:44):
So Eddie Sale has been in charge of curating this
week's mail bag, and we have six very spicy questions
lined up. Great and so and so, who's your favorite team?
Speaker 4 (40:58):
Like national team or both? The Columbia national team okay,
or the Arsenal.
Speaker 3 (41:06):
Thank you, thank you, that's the right answer. That's great.
Speaker 2 (41:08):
At least you're gonna win the Premier League. Don't listen
to your dad.
Speaker 4 (41:11):
No, I'm confident.
Speaker 2 (41:13):
I love the confidence.
Speaker 3 (41:14):
He's confident.
Speaker 4 (41:15):
They have to play against Villa, our toughest opponent's Newcastle.
Speaker 3 (41:19):
Yeah, Newcastle's tough, not Villa.
Speaker 1 (41:23):
Newcastle's in fourteenth Daniel, Yeah, but yeah, okay. Alisal speaks
with the confidence of a young man whose heart has
not been broken, and I I I'm here for it.
I love it, and you know, I will be very
happy if we win the Premier League. I'll be very
happy if we win anything. Uh Anyway, but that's not
(41:46):
what we're here to discuss, because that now it's been
since I said that will be my only mention of Arsenal,
it's been five mentions now. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (41:55):
So someone on poly market is setting up over under
right now on how how many? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (42:01):
Okay, just a director's note. And so don't look behind
you at John. Okay, resist the urg resist the urg
to look behind you at the giant screen of John
Green's face hovering over you, as if he say about John,
lift your hands up like this. Okay, hold that, hold that,
and he said it looks scared.
Speaker 3 (42:21):
There we go.
Speaker 1 (42:23):
Okay, God, that's a terrifying feature. Okay, okay, So just
look at us. The camera's there, John's not there, just
John is that voice in your head?
Speaker 3 (42:34):
Okay? So what's the first question? Hit us?
Speaker 4 (42:36):
Dear John and Daniel I am a longtime John Green reader,
fairly new rad listener, and as I'm listening to this podcast,
I'm realizing how much Daniel inspired the character Chip Martin
and Looking for Alaska. So whether or not John or
Daniel wins the World Cup bet one could argue Daniel
is already in one of Joan's novels, and so it's
automatically Daniel's turn. Please discuss best Jasmine.
Speaker 3 (42:59):
Wow wow, I think you got to explain this. It's funny.
Speaker 2 (43:06):
It's funny that person says that because when my best
friend from high school, Todd Carti, was in the audience
once for a book event, somebody said, who's your favorite
character in Looking for Alaska? And I said, I don't know, Todd,
who's your favorite character? And Todd said, I can't remember
what you called me?
Speaker 3 (43:25):
Oh wow.
Speaker 1 (43:29):
I was told once in writing that if you wanted
to write about somebody without them knowing, just name another
character after them, right, so you wanted.
Speaker 2 (43:39):
To You could also make the case that I was
writing about our friend Chip, since we actually have a
friend named Chip and Chip Martin, you know, I mean
I was writing about all of us. I was writing
about me. I was writing about Sean. I was writing
about you, I was writing about all of us.
Speaker 1 (43:53):
Yeah, there was a there was a noticeable absence of
provings in the novel by Reforc.
Speaker 3 (44:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (44:01):
It was egregious. It was noted. It was definitely noted
by the critics, by the the you know people on Reddit.
Speaker 3 (44:09):
I noticed it. Uh yeah, but I've forgiven you for that, and.
Speaker 1 (44:15):
I'm looking forward to my mention in your upcoming book.
Speaker 2 (44:19):
Yeah. I think that in the upcoming book, I will
definitely mention that you are Peruvian. It will be the
Peruvian movie director Danielle Aller.
Speaker 3 (44:29):
Can I just say the only umbrince? Is that the
right word? Umbrince? Yeah? Sure? Did I take with Jasmine's umbradge? Umbridge? Umbridge? Okay?
Is umbrnts offense? Why don't you say offence? You don't
sound literate here in front of my son. The only offense, yes,
(44:50):
thank you, that I will take with this wonderful note
from our listener Jasmine, is that it does not uh
you know, speculate that I could win uh you know,
the World Cup back. It's just taking me completely or
elliots a if he's participating in it. But like you know,
so I just I should acknowledge that I think that.
Speaker 1 (45:11):
You're the favorite. I agree, I think will be encumbered
by our knowledge and you will be free to pick
Corusaw over Germany in the semi final.
Speaker 3 (45:27):
And who knows. I mean, I'm not an idiot either,
you know. So it's not like I'm you know, making
these predictions just completely throwing all caution to the wind. Yeah,
Sean's not like a nineteen eighty six algorithm, like he's
able to make some choices. Reason in logic do apply? Yeah? Sure,
(45:49):
all right. So wait, so just to nail this down,
I'm not Chick Martin.
Speaker 2 (45:55):
None of us is.
Speaker 3 (45:56):
Oh Man.
Speaker 1 (45:57):
All right, Okay, Well I hope that answers are our
listeners questions. Okay, ady, say what's next?
Speaker 4 (46:05):
This is a long one.
Speaker 3 (46:06):
Okay, is this the Bulgarian question? Yes, okay to our listeners. Kolia, Kolia, Coolio, Colio.
Speaker 1 (46:15):
Colio, so to Kolio, Atlissa and I worked hard on
the pronunciations of these Bulgarian names in preparation for this
recording session, and we're doing our best. I also edited
lightly to to sort of cut out some of the
names because it was it was a challenge Stutchkov is
the one you.
Speaker 4 (46:31):
Need to know too, Stoutchekov and my Mi Mihailov.
Speaker 2 (46:37):
Okay, there you go, hi, John Daniel.
Speaker 4 (46:40):
In the nineteen nineties, we Bulgarians were fortunate to have
an exceptionally talented Generation one superstar Stuchekov, four to five
top players, and we finished fourth at the nineteen ninety
four feet for World Cup. Since then, things have gone
steadily downhill. In the early two thousands, the narrative was
that the remnants of the communist era leadership were holding
Bulgarian football back. In two thousand and five, Borislav Mihaalyov,
(47:05):
the captain of the nineteen ninety four team, was elected
president of the Football Union and held the position for
seventeen years, alongside other members of that same golden generation.
Seventeen years is a long time, and the trajectory of
Bulgarian football during that period was very consistent downward year
after year. And here's my question, how should I feel
about Borislav Mikhalyov, especially now after his passing. How should
(47:29):
I interpret the public condolences from his peers, even critics
who describe him as a great president, when all evidence
would seem to imply the contrary, I'd really value your
perspective on these philosophical questions, knowing they are not simple.
Speaker 3 (47:41):
All the best koil.
Speaker 2 (47:44):
Interesting or not simple. That's a great point. It's really
hard because there used to be an impulse Koyo to
not say bad things about people after they died, and
on Twitter at least that impulse has gone away. And
I don't know if that's good or bad. Like, I
think it's good to have a reckoning with who someone
(48:05):
really was, right, Like I remember when the poet Derek
Walcott passed. You know, it's a brilliant poet who also
caused a lot of harm to a lot of people,
And the tension there was profound and explored, not always
in nuanced ways, but at least explored. And I think
(48:27):
it's important to explore that. I think it's important to
acknowledge that. So I don't think that it's I don't
think you can simply say like, there goes the passing
of a great man. If you feel like it was
more complicated than that.
Speaker 1 (48:41):
What do you think, Daniel, Yeah, I think first of all,
there's no indication in the letter. I don't know much
about Bulgarian football, Beyonnest. Although Stitchkoff was incredible player, incredible player,
but I don't know enough about this the captain of
that team who became the president of the federation to
say what exactly what. There's no occation that he was
(49:02):
a kind of Derek Walcott, you know, kind of predator preditor, right,
It's more like he was incompetent at his job. And
I think there's probably a lot of reasons one could
not have the results that one wants, and they may
or may not be moral failings, you know. Like I
always think about this when I'm if I'm asked to
review a book and I don't like it, and sometimes
(49:25):
you feel like angry that I had to read this book,
that it wasn't good, And then before I write my review,
so I don't come off like a complete asshole, I
have to remind myself that writing a bad novel is
not a moral failure. It's very difficult to write a
good novel. Yeah, it's arguably one of the hardest things
to do. Same Like, similarly, I think it's hard to
(49:47):
run a football federation, or you know, to be a
metronomic midfielder, you know, making an offense tick I think
all these things are hard, and you could be trying
your damnedest and not pull it off, and it's not
a moral failure, So don't I don't think we're in
a situation. There's no indication from Coldia's letter that we're
in a situation where this guy was a bad person.
(50:08):
He just might have been bad at his job despite
his best efforts.
Speaker 2 (50:11):
But seventeen years, so you could say, I think I
think when someone like when someone dies in that situation,
I think you have to say this person tried their
best at a hard job.
Speaker 1 (50:23):
Yeah, And I guess the only critique there that I
think would be fair is if you're bad at your
job despite your best efforts and you stay for seventeen years.
Speaker 3 (50:31):
Yeah, maybe there.
Speaker 1 (50:32):
Was a the a kind of diabolical lack of self
awareness that might have been addressed earlier.
Speaker 2 (50:40):
Right, But it's so hard to stop doing a job
that you're bad at. It's so hard because it's so
hard to have that self awareness. Anyway, I feel bad
for everyone in this situation. But I but I if
I were a Bulgarian football fan, I would be I
would be very resentful. I mean I am very resentful
as an American of the US Soccer Federation, so it's
(51:02):
not hard for me to imagine being angry at the
federation and it's it's president.
Speaker 1 (51:07):
I saw the third place game of the nineteen ninety
four World Cup at a bar in Annapolis, Maryland, and
watched Bulgary get absolutely destroyed, hammered, hammered for nothing.
Speaker 3 (51:22):
Against two I think it was sweet. Is that right?
Speaker 1 (51:26):
I can't remember, but I just remember them getting destroyed
and being like, they shouldn't have a third place game.
You already did so great. You got to the semi finals,
and then for the last two games of your tournament
to be two losses seem super cruel after everything you
did to get there. It was Sweden, by the way,
it was okay, yeah, good memory. Despite my advanced age
(51:51):
aty so I still have a good time. I don't
know that that's that's maybe a question for another day.
But like it is the third place game an act
of cruelty by FIFA, I would argue, yes, yeah, yeah, okay,
next question.
Speaker 4 (52:10):
Hello, John and Daniel. I'm interested in what you think
are unacceptable reasons for supporting a national team. Obviously, nationality ancestry. Friends'
nationalities are good reasons for support. Is a memorable vacation
to a place enough to support a team? What about
a killer national anthem? As an example, I've always been
a fan of the Dutch. There are several interlocking reasons,
(52:30):
but honestly, the most significant is just because Dutch orange
is so beautifully audacious. Still, I'm not so confident in
any of these good these are good reasons to consign
myself to a life of heartbreak. Please discuss best, Ryan.
Speaker 2 (52:45):
I think liking the color is adequate. Actually, it's a
really good color. It's an exceptional orange. It's a great color.
I agree, is it enough? I also think the national
anthem is adequate. You know, the Greek national anthem has
one hundred and seventeen verses. That's a good enough reason.
Speaker 1 (53:00):
Do you know the Spanish national anthem doesn't have lyrics?
Speaker 3 (53:03):
Yes, it's nice, so they can't sing along?
Speaker 1 (53:05):
No, they just kind of hum it's yeah, yeah, yeah.
I find that to be surreal.
Speaker 2 (53:10):
God, I wish we had a better national anthem. This
is one of my fundamental disagreements with most Americans. I
think our national anthem is catastrophically bad, and I think
there are so many good songs about America that we
could be singing. Instead. We could be singing America the Beautiful.
We could be singing God Bless America. We could be
singing this this land is your land. We could be
(53:33):
singing the Battle Hymn of the Republic. I mean there,
it's endless. Yeah, and yet we choose somehow to sing
this song that Francis scott Key wrote that is not good.
The best thing Francis Scott Key ever did was give
Francis Scott Key Fitzgerald his name.
Speaker 1 (53:49):
Oh huh, I didn't realize that's where the name came from.
I think that's a controversial take. I actually like it.
Speaker 3 (53:58):
Well, I hate to say this, but you're wrong and
you're rarely wrong.
Speaker 1 (54:05):
Okay, Okay, that's fair to answer Ryan's question, I think,
I mean, it depends how deep your arbitrary love for
the color orange, Like how far you've taken that. I
don't know if, like you know, I went on vacation,
you know, once to a country, and now I have
(54:25):
the emblem of the Federation like tattooed on my lower back.
Like I think that might be weird, but I think
all like if all things are neutral and you've went
you know, you're watching a group stage game, and you're like,
you know this country that I've that I went to
once in that country that I've never been to, and
you're like, you know, if I want to create a
(54:46):
sporting interest in order to make this game more intriguing
to me, you know, I often will pick a team
and just sort of see what happens. I usually pick
the underdog if I don't know anything. I think that's
just more interesting and more ethically defensible.
Speaker 2 (55:00):
All right, let me say I only have time for
one more question because I have to go to Sierra Leon.
Speaker 1 (55:05):
Oh my gosh. Okay, pick one, pick a good one?
Speaker 4 (55:08):
Difficult, Okay, Dear John and Daniel. During your discussion of
the German team in the recent episode, John mentioned that
it feels surreal seeing Julian Nagel's been coaching because he
still remembers him as a player. That indeed would be
surreal as he never played professional football.
Speaker 3 (55:31):
Good choice, So that's a perfect question. At least sale
you could have picked any question. We got so many
this week. He's mad at you for having to cut
it short straight to the juggular on this one. Keep going, Keep.
Speaker 4 (55:46):
Going, John, probably remembers him from his first Bundesliga head
coach job at Hoffenheim, which Naglesman started when he was
twenty nine and therefore younger than many players. So here's
my question what makes a good coach and the fact
that many of the best coaches were not old class
players themselves. Keep up the good work, best, Mattias.
Speaker 1 (56:03):
Before you answer, can I just say something? Because the
setup was like, John, why are you hallucinating? Like to
at GBT, But the question was very respectful, so respectful
after having slapped you around for once again making shit up,
much like the game that I allegedly attended with you
at the World Cup. You're you just make shit up
(56:26):
like a fiction writer.
Speaker 3 (56:27):
I do, and I married.
Speaker 2 (56:28):
I married blessedly to an absolutely committed fact checker. And
so I'll give you an example. I recently told a friend.
I was like, you know, I had meningitis, which is true.
I got meningitis on a trip with Bill Gates. I
got meningitis in Ethiopia, and I was traveling with the
(56:49):
folks from the Gates Foundation, including Bill Gates. And when
I got meningitis, Bill Gates sent me an orchid to
say he was sorry. And I was like, and look
at this beautiful orkid that Bill Gates sennas And Sarah
was like, that's not Bill Gates's orchid. That's a completely
different orchids from years later. Ah, you don't know how orkids.
Speaker 3 (57:13):
Work, Sarah. Just let me have this, just let me know.
Speaker 2 (57:16):
But I actually appreciate the fact checking because I am
such a wild fabulouist. I need someone in my life
who grounds me a little bit. So thank you for
that incredibly generous correction. Like if i'd been I would
have dunked on me so much harder than that.
Speaker 3 (57:35):
In the times, I love it. I love it.
Speaker 1 (57:39):
So it's now the respectful question that came out of
that kind of swipe at you, respectful swipe. Yeah, what
makes a great coach, especially, you know, if they haven't
come out of the game as players themselves.
Speaker 2 (57:54):
I've only observed up close coaches in the third tier
of English soccer, and not sure that that that I
can answer the question with any any clarity. But I
think there is a mix of tactics and and and
being able to understand human nature. I think that there
are a wide variety of ways you can understand human nature,
(58:17):
like the way you're gonna clop coaches is very different
from the way that say, Poachattino coaches or Jose Mourinho coaches.
But Jose Mourinho, Sorry, I know, I know Daniel's going
to correct me anyway, So I'm just going to get
out in front of it.
Speaker 1 (58:33):
I feel like, but Ti has already corrected you so brilliantly.
I don't want to It's redundant at this point to
correct you.
Speaker 2 (58:41):
But I think you do have to understand people, and
then I think you have to have a good tactical
understanding of your level of football.
Speaker 1 (58:47):
What do you think, Daniel, Yeah, I think a good
coach protects as players. I think a good coach, you know,
builds them up when they're suffering, and also takes the blame,
you know, and doesn't throw them under the bus. And
in addition, having the you know, the tactile acumen and
understanding who's peaking at the right moments. So yeah, I
(59:11):
think all of those things are are true. The emotional,
I think psychological side is probably under rated. Yeah, because
all of these guys at that level are elite.
Speaker 3 (59:24):
They're incredible athletes.
Speaker 1 (59:25):
They have they have the skills, they're technically gifted, but
the psychological aspect of and here's my sixth mention of
Arsenal is for example, what I think separates Pep from
uh from Arteta who hasn't been able to rouse his
players in the last six games when a title was
in their grasp.
Speaker 2 (59:45):
But I think there's also the pressure that comes with
that that can bring you down that two percent, right,
Like I've I've been thinking about that a lot with
AFC Wimbledon, that like, what's what's really where they're really
struggling is they've been pushed down that two percent by
the pressure of the prospect of relegation. And that's the
two percent that's the difference between a two to one
win and two one loss.
Speaker 3 (01:00:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:00:05):
Absolutely, uh, thank you Eliseo for curating these questions for us. Yeah,
welcome and John have safe travels to Sierra Leone.
Speaker 2 (01:00:14):
Thank you. People call it Africa's Peru because they've also
never qualified for the World Cup.
Speaker 3 (01:00:22):
We have qualified for the World Cup. Yeah, I'm a
fabulous Daniel. I'm having a good time over here.
Speaker 1 (01:00:30):
I thought you were gonna say, because we also have tuberculosis,
you do, We certainly.
Speaker 3 (01:00:35):
Do lots of it. Yes, Yes, okay, safe travels.
Speaker 1 (01:00:38):
We'll see you next week. Thank everyone for listening. Remember
to rate and review us. Thank you Sean and Kurt
and behieb and we'll see you next week.
Speaker 3 (01:00:46):
And most importantly, thank you Elise.
Speaker 4 (01:00:48):
You're welcome.
Speaker 3 (01:00:49):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (01:00:49):
Oh it's a great joy to be with you.
Speaker 3 (01:00:51):
Yes, wonderful, wonderful. All right, see you next week.
Speaker 1 (01:00:54):
Thanks everybody,
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