On Episode 18 of The Away End, Daniel’s story about watching the Arsenal v. West Ham game and the aftermath leads John to zero in on a major problem with human behavior. In his Brazil deep dive, Daniel introduces us to jogo bonito (The Beautiful Game), talks about his hero Ronaldinho and wonders if Brazil has recovered from the 7-1 loss to Germany in the semi-finals of the 2014 World Cup. Plus, John continues to construct the legend of “everyone’s favorite third-tier English soccer team”, AFC Wimbledon.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
Welcome to your way, and I'm Amiel Alarcon.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
I'm John Green.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
John. We have a lot to talk about today, but
I guess I wanted to start with a question for you.
You are a fan of an opposing team, and I've
discovered the closer that Arsenal get to the possibility of
maybe winning a Premier League, that all the people that
I thought were my friends actually are hate my team
(00:30):
with like white hot passion and want Arsenal to lose
and want me to be unhappy and can't even bear
the thought of me smiling. And I just was wondering,
as a fan of another team, why do you think
that is? Why does everyone hate Arsenal so much?
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Well, I think Arsenal are the most dislike team according
to a social media recent social media study, and everyone
knows that those social media studies are totally reliable. I
think that there are a few things going on here.
I mean, first off, I don't think about when I
think about Arsenal winning the league. I don't think about
you being happy, because that brings me no joy. I
think about the Sierra Leonian tuberculosis survivor who told me
(01:05):
North London forever being happy and that brings me joy.
There are always fans that you should be happy for.
I mean, Arsenal are one of the biggest clubs in
the world. I think that's part of it, and they've
been in hard times. It's like if Manchester United were
to suddenly succeed again, Manchester United would become the most
hated club in the Premier League because people don't like
to see big clubs succeed. It's kind of a bummer.
(01:26):
But I would argue it's a bigger bummer to watch
man City succeed with their one hundred and fifteen or
however many charges for financial malfeasance and the fact that
you know, an infinite amount of state money came into
a football club and allowed it to become what Manchester
City has become, to me is a much bigger bummer
(01:46):
than Arsenal succeeding.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
See John, that's what I thought. That's what I thought,
and then you know, here's what happened. Let me just
paint a picture for you and then you can go
back to your take on this. So, as you know,
last weekend Arsenal was beating west Ham, won nothing and
in extra time an injury time basically ninety something minute,
(02:09):
a goal is scored off a corner kick of a
west Ham corner and then it's a judged that the
west Ham striker had basically thrown his arm into David
Raya's neck and was holding his other arm and that
was a foul.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
I think that's the critical thing. The critical thing is
that the west Ham player was preventing David Rayah from
raising his arm by holding his arm down, and therefore
Rayah did not get to the ball, or he kind
of got to the ball, but he wasn't able to
really get a big punch on it because someone was
holding his arm down. And that's its unambiguous foul. And
(02:49):
the thing is everyone agrees that it's a foul. Yes,
this gets to one of the but people will say, now, oh,
you know, video assistant referee handed Arsenal the title. This
gets to one of my big frustrations with contemporary football discourse,
which is that we act like these purportedly controversial moments
(03:10):
are the moments that actually determine the winner of the
Premier League, rather than acknowledging that over a thirty eight
game season that stuff evens out, which it does. There
is no bias against big clubs. There is no bias
toward Arsenal among the referees. What it boils down to
is that we like to have conversations about controversial moments
because we can't have conversations about whether or not ninety
(03:34):
nine percent of Arsenal's you know, one hundred goals this
season or goals. Instead, we have conversations about the one
or two that might be controversial. But in this case
it's actually not controversial. Like I've had this argument with
a bunch of my friends where I've said, well, it
was a foul, and they write back, yes, it was
a foul, but there were other times when Arsenal committed
(03:54):
fouls on goalkeepers and scored from corners, And this is
what means that it's been unfair the whole time, and
they weren't saying that before this foul was committed. So
to me, it's all illegitimate, it's all bad faith. But
what it reminds me of is really important going into
the World Cup, I think, which is that we will
(04:15):
end up focusing on the controversial moments, but the teams
that win the World Cup will not win the World
Cup because of primarily because of controversial moments. They will
win the World Cup because they are better and they
play better on the day and they win the game
on the day. And we need to on the internet especially,
we are so obsessed with what can divide us with
(04:37):
the arguments that can create two easy camps. It was
a foul and David Raya, it wasn't a foul on
David Raya. Arsenal deserve to win the Premier League. Arsenal
don't deserve to win the Premier League. We are so
obsessed with any wedge issue that can split us into
two neat groups, where you know, one is on the
side of all that is right and noble in the world,
and the other is on the side of evil that like,
(04:59):
we do this sports and it's it's even it's it's
much dumber in sports than it is in the rest
of life. Because it was a foul. Everyone acknowledges it
was a foul, and and you're watching it and even
like on the commentators were like, yeah, it was a foul,
but no, no, but it was a foul, and so
it of course it was called back. Of course it
(05:20):
doesn't count as a goal because it wasn't a goal,
because there was a foul in the lead up to
the goal.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
Right, I hear you on that. I mean, obviously I
hear you on that because I'm an Arsenal fan and
if you want to.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
Know, you don't have to be an Arsenal fan to
know that was a foul.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
But that's okay. But yes, but here's what I want
to point out, because here's the crazy part. Right, So,
as our listeners will know, west Ham and Tottenham are
basically fighting it out to see who gets relegated or
who gets to stay up, I guess, and that call
that would have given west Ham a point, but took
that point away and gave Arsenal three points, left west
Ham with no points benefited primarily Spurs. So both sides
(05:58):
of North London, Tottenham and Arsenal benefited from that call.
And so you would think you would think that Tottenham
fans would, through their fury, be able to see, hey,
this is actually not only the right call but also
it benefits us. But no, there was a pylon from
Tottenham fans and it was almost friends of mine in
(06:22):
you know, people I quite like people who are friends
of mine, you know, And there was like all of
this talk, you know, Arsenal cheating, blah blah, and I
was like, do you prefer to go down? Is that
what you're saying is like, is that the the argument
that's being made here? Because not only was this the
right call, but it was also a direct benefit, directly
(06:46):
benefiting Spurs, Hans and Tottenams.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
Okay, Daniel, I think you have hit upon the second
thing that drives me crazy about contemporary internet discourse, which
is that we would rather see our enemies suffer than
ourselves do.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
Well.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
I think that those Tottenham fans genuinely would rather go
down and have Arsenal not win the title than have
Arsenal win the title and not go down. I think
it's wow, so horrifying the I think that's that has
to be it, right, Otherwise they would say thank you
var for saving us from going down. And this is
(07:24):
a problem not just in sports, this is a problem
in the regular real world, where seeing our enemies suffer.
Schadenfreude is so much more enjoyable a form of shodden
than just pleasure. That we want to see our enemies suffer,
even unto our own misery.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
Wow, it's wild to me. It's wild to me, and
I actually had a friend of mine, Spurs fan, tell me,
ask me if I preferred not winning the PREM if
Spurs went down, and I was like, no, absolutely not.
I would obviously rather win the PREM. And I've been
on the record like if Spurs go down, I would
never stop laughing. I think would be hilarious. But if
(08:05):
you give me a choice between not winning the PREM
and Spurs going down or winning the PREM and Spurs
staying up, like one thousand times, I would choose to
win the Premier League because the other thing is inconceivable
to me. It's irrelevant in my life if Spurs stay
in the Premier League or not. But winning the league
would give me as a fan. And again I've been
(08:25):
a fan. I've never seen us win the Premier League.
I might never see us win the Premier League. You
never know. It would give me such joy, it would be,
it would be a beautiful thing, and I would I
would relish it. And you know, Spurs's travails is of
no consequence in my emotional life really aside from a
little laughter.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
Yeah. But I think that this is because you're not
chronically online. I think if you were chronically online like
I am, you would experience more joy in the failure
of others and less joy and the success of yourself
and your team.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
I would quibble with that. I'm really petty. I mean,
I'm super petty, you know. I was just thinking today.
I was thinking today as I was putting on my
purple shoes. I was like, Wow, if all it takes
for Real Madrid to never win a trophy is for
me to buy a pair of Real Madrid shoes every year, like,
maybe it's worth it, because I just find when Real
Madrid fails to be that to be so funny. I
(09:19):
was like, ah, maybe I'm petty enough to consider that.
I mean, obviously it won't do it, but I'm petty
enough to consider that. Uh. You know, I just don't
I want you to think that I'm some kind of like,
you know, perfectly generous, uh, you know, elegant fan, because
I definitely am not.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
No, no, no, I understand that you're a petty person.
But you would rather see Arsenal succeed than Tottenham fail.
And I actually think that, in contemporary discourse, makes you
a little unusual.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
Hm hmm. Interesting.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
I would also rather see my team succeed then, and
maybe it's generational. I don't know byan. I would also
rather see like this year at AFC Wimbledon's Big rivals
and this this is a bit of a spoil or
from my story in part three, But this year AFC
Wimbledon's Big Rivals got promoted and I didn't think about
it at all. I don't, I don't. All I think
(10:09):
is well, that means we play them twice and that's
going to be uncomfortable and weird. But like, I don't,
I don't care the whole point, you know. Uh there.
I'm reminded of one time I was talking to someone
who graduated from Yale, and like everyone who graduated from Yale,
he let me know almost immediately and he uh he said,
(10:32):
you know, at Yale, we used to say Harvard sucks
in Princeton doesn't matter. And I always loved that insult
because the idea of not mattering is so much worse
than sucking. And like, that's how I feel about Milton Keynes,
like they don't matter, and I think that's way, way,
way more powerful than hating something is being like, oh,
(10:54):
I'm sorry, you just don't matter very much to me.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
Did I tell you about my my uncle Ubert and
what he told me about childs when I was like
thirteen years old. Okay, the context here is important, as
you know, we were I was being raised in Birmingham, Alabama,
peruven family, five or six proven families in our neighborhood.
We all knew each other obviously, and my Deallbert was
like my pediatrician and also close family friend. He had
(11:19):
grown up with my dad and how to keep up,
and his kids were a little bit older than me.
But we were all kind of friends and hung out
and stuff. So one day I was over there and
he was like, I was washing the cars with with
my uncle and he says to me out of nowhere.
First of all, he told me that the Incas were
seven feet tall, which I was like, huh okay, yeah,
And I was like why, I asked him, I remember,
(11:41):
why why are proving so short? Then? And he was
like the Spanish, the Spanish ruined Dutch and Spanish the
Spanish influence. Yeah. So I was like okay, well, okay, sure,
and then he said to me he started getting on
it like very nationalists, and he said to me, he's like, Nanny,
one day you will meet at chilean I was like okay,
and he was like, and you will tell him you're
(12:02):
Peruvian and he won't be able to look you in
the eye because he'll be so ashamed of what his
people did to your people. And I was like, wow,
it's like Birmingham, like nineteen ninety. Yeah, I'm like okay.
So many years later, I was in Santiago to Chile,
and I was at a restaurant with a friend of
mine and some friend of hers had won some award
(12:25):
and they were all celebrating. She's like, come along, everyone's
being super nice, and I don't know why. I'd had
a couple of glasses of wine. Chilean wine is delicious, amazing,
and I just I don't know what possessed me to
tell the random Chilean guys today next to me this story.
And then he was like huh. He was basically like,
Princeton doesn't matter to me. He was like, no, actually, actually,
(12:49):
we just don't think about you guys very much. It
was like really, wait, wait, wait, wait, hold on, when
finish the story, because he points out in this restaurant
there was these giant paintings and the painting was of
the War of the Pacific and a Chilean guy planting
a flag and a bunch of dead Peruvin soldiers like
around him, like classical, like very like West, you know,
kind of like a classical painting, you know, realist and
(13:13):
kind of heroic. And there's all these dead Peruvins around
this Chilean planting a flag. And I was like, so
his response to like, I was expecting him because my
uncle had told me that he would apologize, And his
response was like, oh, look at all those dead Peruvins.
And then he was like, want more wine? And I
was like, yes, please, just.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
Give me the bottle.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
Just give me the bottle.
Speaker 2 (13:35):
Yeah, this reminds me of an ex girlfriend's story. I
think I'm I think I'm sworn by by obligation only
to tell one ex girlfriend's story on this podcast. But
so I'll use my I'll use my exemption. This time.
I a girl and I had broken up, but we
were still friends ostensibly, and we went on this hiking
(13:57):
trip together in Denali National Park and it was you know,
we were hiking above the clouds and the tundra and
it was really beautiful. And I said to her, you know,
why do you think we broke up? And she said, well,
have you ever fallen out of love with someone? And
I said, I guess And she said, I guess I
kind of fell out of like with you.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (14:22):
Wow. Yeah. Yeah, such a thing as too hard. It
sucks and Princeton doesn't matter.
Speaker 1 (14:28):
Yeah, there's such a thing as too honest. John, You've
done a remarkable job recovering from that.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
Really. Thank you, Yeah, thank you. We're gonna We're gonna
throw to a break now so that I can off
the record tell Daniel the other story about this same person.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
Sounds great. Okay, we'll be right back on new end.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
Welcome back to the away, and I think you're going
to introduce us to the beautiful game.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
Oh jogo bonito. Yeah. I actually was excited to do
this Brazil deep dive because when I think of, you know,
last week we spoke with Simon Cooper, who wrote this
wonderful book World Cup Fever, and we talked a lot
about national identity and how at different moments, stylistic ways
of playing football had been very identified with different nations,
and I think probably Brazil is the country that is
(15:26):
most identified with the style of play. There's a phrase
for it, jogo bonito. The beautiful game. And when we
think of Brazil, we think of the Peleis, we think of,
you know, the fabulous nineteen seventy squad. That it was
a team that was both like elegant and entertaining. They
were winners, but they also like redefined football. It was
(15:47):
like they were I mean, and this is obviously cliche,
and my apologies to all Brazilian listeners, but it was
like they were dancing zamba while they were playing. It
was a style that was deeply rooted in national identity.
Like almost tactics were less important than aesthetics. Football had
to be beautiful, alive, attacking, and they won. They won
playing this game in part, I think because you know,
we're talking about nineteen seventies. You know, it was before
(16:13):
you know, Latin America exported its best players to Europe.
So there was a real sort of like the teams
from Europe would play the teams from Latin America and
it was like encountering a style they hadn't played before.
They didn't know what to do. And so this football
and culture not only produced World Cup winning teams but
also some of the greatest players that we've ever seen.
You know, I remember them. I'm sure you do do
(16:34):
as well. Ronaldo obviously the first one. Ronaldo, the real one,
or Gordino they call him now because he's put on
a little weight.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
There's an amazing song about Ronaldo that I've always loved.
He's big, he's round, He's worth a million pounds. Ranaldo.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
Ronaldo was fantastic, I mean of phenomenal. I mean he
was God what a player. Man a player and also
has a beautiful narrative arc of like his his panic
attack before the ninety eight World Cup final, winning it
in two thousand and two, his terrible haircut, you know,
like all these things like he's just you know, multiple
(17:13):
times he came back from ACL injuries back in the
day before they had these kind of like you know,
magical surgeries that they do now where they're like wizards.
Like back then they would like staple your ACL together
and tied it a not or something. Just a wonderful player.
But to me, I want to mention my absolute hero
growing up was Ronaldinho. I mean, dno, man, you know,
(17:35):
the most electric and audacious player ever to put on cleats.
I mean you just never knew what he was going
to do. Fearless and you just never you couldn't defend
him because even he didn't know what he was going
to do next. But he was just brazen about attempting
the craziest things later, like entering Paraguay without a without
(17:59):
a passport and ending up in a prison. But that's
a whole another story, which maybe will tell on this
very pod one day. Okay, So here's the baseline. Brazil
are football's unquestioned elite. They've won the Copamitica nine times,
most recently in twenty nineteen against Peru in the final.
I should say at an international level, only Brazil has
won five World Cups nineteen fifty eight, sixty two, seventy,
(18:21):
ninety four and two thousand and two. Okay, but let's
be honest, two thousand and two was a while ago,
and they haven't really looked like themselves for several World
Cup cycles now. Even in ninety four when they won,
and also in two thousand and two, a lot of
Brazilians criticized the team for playing more kind of pragmatic football,
a little bit more defensive, as opposed to the jogo
(18:43):
bonito that we all associate with them. So that's the
context even of their last two World Cup victories. Then
comes twenty fourteen, and John, I want to ask you
where were you when Germany and Brazil played in the
twenty fourteen World Cup semifinal.
Speaker 2 (19:01):
I was in Union Peer, Michigan, and I remember that
Brazil had played pretty poorly throughout the tournament. They never
looked like they were firing on all cylinders. That World
Cup was in Brazil, right, it was in Brazil. That's
an important part of the context. It was in Brazil,
(19:21):
and so I remember that, like, they didn't look good
in the group, but they had a really weak group
because they were a host nation. They didn't look good
in the round of sixteen, and then suddenly they're in
the semifinals, and I remember having a bad feeling, like
as as somebody who follows Brazil, I remember having a
bad feeling that said, I could never have imagined what occurred.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
Right, You couldn't have imagined. I don't think anyone could
have imagined it. I think the context you mentioned that
Brazil were the host country is very important. I think
everyone in Brazil expected them to win. It was like
their birthright. You know, you host the World Cup, you
have to win it. If you're in Brazil. They in
the in the they had your right to say that
they hadn't played particularly well, but they had They had Neymar,
(20:06):
and basically the plan was to keep the game close
and then have Neymar do something spectacular, and he often did.
He was incredible that that tournament. However, in the quarterfinal
they played against Columbia and Neymar was fouled with a
knee in the back and nearly had his back broken,
apparently was centimeters away from from being paralyzed, and so
(20:28):
they played. They entered the semifinal without Neymar and also
without Jago Silva, who was their captain and their best defender.
And then we all know what happened. They go out
to play Germany, a kind of prototypically like the most
organized European team around, and they got They didn't just
get beaten, they got humiliated, humiliated. I remember watching this
(20:49):
game at a Cafe Jenny Cafe in Oakland, and some
of the goals were so similar, and they were coming
so quickly that people thought they were replaced. You know.
I called my dad at halftime and my dad was
speech He was like, I was like, what's happening, what's happening?
Speaker 2 (21:07):
Yeah, so Brazil lost seven to one, which flattered them
as a score line, like they could have easily lost
by more than seven to one, but Germany kind of
took Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
Absolutely, I think the first half was so easy for
Germany that they didn't even know what it was happening.
They themselves were confused, and it really was a brutal humiliation.
Seven to one is an unthinkable score line in a
World Cup semifinal. And I guess the question is this
has Brazil recovered And I would argue that they haven't.
(21:42):
I would argue that they are still sort of dealing
with the hangover from that humiliation they went out in
the quarters in twenty eighteen and twenty twenty two. You know,
going on the quarters is respectable if you're the US
men's national team. If you're Brazil, it's not, you know,
(22:03):
And I guess, you know begs the question, can you
win on Aura alone? And can you win on Aura
after that Ora has been so thoroughly damaged. If it's
the Copamenica final and it's against Peru, then yeah you
can maybe, you know, But if it's against a strong
European side like Belgium in twenty eighteen or Croati in
twenty twenty two, then maybe not. I mean demonstrably they've
been unable to get past that. Brazil has some of
(22:26):
the most talented players in the world, undoubtedly mentioned a
couple in attack, you know, Vinni Junior, Rafina, you know,
to the top players in La Liga, possibly Neymar though
he isn't the player that he was. And you know
we're recording on Monday morning. This afternoon, the Brazilian national team,
you know, will be announced name ar may or may
(22:47):
not be in that team. You're listening from the future,
so you already know what Carlo Ancelotti has done with Neymar.
I would argue, and again I'm not arguing against Jogo Bonito,
but I am argu doing that. In tournaments, you know,
defense is very important, though we tend to focus on
players like Vinnie Junior, who were all excitement and kind
(23:07):
of the heirs of Ronaldinho. I think just as significant,
if not more so. We're going to be Markinos from PSG,
Gabrielle from Arsenal, Bruno Gui Mariesch from Newcastle or Casimiro
from Man United. That is the stalwarts center of the
park that is going to keep the other teams from
getting too close to your goal and hopefully keeping clean sheets,
(23:29):
which is another thing that matters in these tournaments. There's
some significant absentees from Brazil, Rodrigo Elmigitao Estevao from Chelsea
who was a really young, exciting player, and even Rafina.
You know, I think he'll be in the squad for sure,
but you know, he's had an injury hit season and
last season he was arguably the best player at Barcelona,
and I think this season, with the injuries and whatnot,
(23:51):
he hasn't been the wild card for all. This is
the man in the legend Carlo Ancelotti. I would have
to fact check this, John, but I believe it's the
first time they're going to have a foreign manager for
the national side. And he's not just any manager, John,
he is the greatest club manager in history, five time
(24:11):
Champions League winner, six domestic league titles in Spain and Italy, France, Germany, England.
I mean, this is a man who knows how to
how to manage egos at the very highest level, how
to get the best out of his players, you know,
even in in in you know, in difficult circumstances. I
think he's proven He's a serial winner, and now he's
(24:35):
going to try to replicate that magic with the most
iconic national side in the sport. And I think it's
just going to be a very fascinating watch, even if
the football is not going to be at the level
that we associate with Brazil, because we see that yellow jersey,
that iconic yellow jersey, we just think God ruin for retreat.
(24:55):
It's probably not going to be that. You know, Simon
Cooper was telling us that last week as well. You
know that the the tournament doesn't allow for that anymore
in some ways. But I think if they win, no
one will care. If they win, no one will care.
Everyone will be dancing and it'll be great. I want
to say. I saw once John, I think the greatest
(25:17):
woman to ever play the sport, Martha from Brazil. I
saw her play in a championship game and it was
it wasn't the women's league that we currently have in
the It was an earlier iteration of the women's like MLS. Basically,
she was playing on a team based in the Bay
Area and I went and it was a very small
(25:40):
stadium outside Oakland, at like literally at some community college,
and there were Brazilians there with the drums, with the tambourines,
and this the whole game, a steady beat, the whole game.
And it was just infectious to see her play and
to see Brazilian fans supporting, you know, in this case,
not even the national team, just to play and not
(26:00):
just any player, Marta who look it up. Just an
absolute class player, you know, one of the best ever.
And I think she scored a brace that day. She
was incredible. So the other I think wildcard I mentioned
Carlo Ancelotti. The other wild card are the fans, and
you know, Brazilian fans are the greatest. And I kind
(26:21):
of want to end with just a little sort of
what we've been doing. Some recommendations from Brazil. I saw
The Secret Agent that film. Did you get to see
that time?
Speaker 2 (26:29):
Yeah? It was great.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
What a beautiful film. I'm in for an Oscar last year.
I want to recommend Clarice le Spector, who I'm sure
you've read of The Star is a great place to start.
Wonderful writer, such an interesting story too. And the band
there's kind of this whole seventies kind of psychedelic Brazilian rock,
(26:51):
vibe rock, sort of like movement that happened to Picaalia,
And my favorite of that kind of vibe is this
band called Sickles in Ohio's and I would just recommend
that to anybody who happens to be listening, just go
down the rabbit hole of like Brazilian psychedelic rock from
the seventies. It's incredible. And I for one, you know,
(27:11):
like when we did our hierarchy of loyalties, John, I
didn't have Brazil at the very top of the of
my South American teams in part because they've humiliated and
embarrassed through so often that it's hard to root for them. However,
if it comes down to it and it's Brazil against
any any other European team or any other team that
isn't Latin American, I will absolutely one hundred percent throw
(27:32):
on the yellow jersey and support Brazil because because they've
given me so much joy in the past. So many
Brazilian players have just made me smile with their creativity
and their audacity, and world football is better for the
presence of Brazil, and I hope they go very far
in the tournament.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
Yeah, I agree, And I have to say Brazilian fans
are not just only remarkable when it comes to football,
they're also remarkable when it comes to novels. My books
translated into Portuguese became big best sellers in Brazil in
the twenty tens. And it was the coolest experience, one
of the coolest experiences of my life, to be able
to visit Brazil and meet some of those fans and
(28:12):
they were like waiting for me outside the hotel and
it was like, I felt like Tom Cruise. It was crazy, Wow,
it's really cold, so love a love a Brazilian fan.
And then everybody would give me jerseys from their look,
from their club team, and I would like Then the
next day I would wear a jersey and people would
be like, I can't believe you're supporting that team instead
of the other teams. And I was like, well, this
(28:32):
is just what the so anyway, now I have like
six different club jerseys from you know what you should
have done to everything.
Speaker 1 (28:40):
Else, Yeah, we should have done. John is just where
the national team jersey, which I've discovered having seen a
few bands. You know, foreign bands come to Borda, everyone
comes and throws on the jersey like at some point
in their concert at Sharon was here last weekend and
we went to see him and at Charon threw onto
the national team jersey. He's not going to throw on
the Santa Fe or the meals jersey. You know, he's
got to throw the right He's a smart man and everyone. Yeah,
(29:02):
so like you can get behind it. This is a
really cool Flameno jersey. And then you're gonna get all
the anti Flamengo haters, you know, with words to say.
So right the way it goes where we're just where
the national team jersey good wesson.
Speaker 2 (29:16):
For me, we're the national jersey when you travel. Yeah. Well,
I also hope Brazil do well in this World Cup.
No spoilers for my eventual bracket, but I'm pretty enthusiastic.
I will say I think the loss of Rodrigo is
super significant. I think that he would have been a key,
(29:38):
key player for Brazil and so I think that's a
big loss. But I still think they've got a lot
of special players.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
There was I want to mention one thing that happened
this weekend that is one of those things that is
I can understand why everyone was upset, but also it's
a little bit funny. I'm sorry. I apologizes to nay
our stands and Brazilians everywhere, but U it was it
was Neymar's last chance to impress Carlo Ancelotti the game
this weekend, and there was a mistake on the board
(30:07):
and they accidentally substituted him with like thirty minutes to go.
He was like very upset, I mean very upset, you know,
as if like this last thirty and this last thirty
minutes was going to prove, you know, he was going
to score a hat trick in the last thirty minutes
and and and prove that that he was worth taking
a risk on. Anyway, it was I just thought it
(30:28):
was just one of those things that dare I say spursy,
you know, was just a very yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
I saw the I saw the team sheet. Neymar was
holding the sheet saying, look, this is the wrong substitution.
But they made it so they'd already done it.
Speaker 1 (30:45):
It was done.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
It was very spursy.
Speaker 1 (30:47):
And if you want to feel old, you know the
player that they brought on, did you know this, The
player that they brought on to replace no Neymar by
accident was Robinho Junior.
Speaker 2 (30:57):
No, no, but Robinho is only forty.
Speaker 1 (31:01):
That's how old you are John. That's how old you are?
Speaker 2 (31:04):
God? He just retired.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
Yeah, you know the play so old. Do you remember
Bebeto from ninety four? Yeah, you'll remember it this okay.
The Beetel famously celebrated a goal by rocking the cradle,
you know, like because his wife had just had a baby.
Speaker 2 (31:21):
M hm.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
That baby is now like in their thirties. You know,
that baby would already be retired basically, you know.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, if I met that baby, I would
be like, this is a peer basically, even though I
was in my mind the adult in nineteen ninety four.
Speaker 1 (31:41):
Yeah, I was there.
Speaker 2 (31:43):
Yeah, that's wild. Life is strange. Aging is very weird.
Hopefully Brazil is able to recapture some of their earlier magic.
We shall see. After the break, I'm going to tell
a story about how you become a football legend in
just three months. Hey Daniel, we're back on the away End.
(32:13):
Before we get to my story, I just want to
talk about two things. First off, a fan made awayendbracket
dot Com, where you, as an Away End fan, can
go and join other away End listeners in a bracket
pool competition and we will give the winner a prize
to be determined a non monetary prize, right, of course,
(32:35):
that's the only kind of prize, Daniel. Yeah, okay, good, good, good, yeah, wonderful,
the kind of prize that makes everyone smile.
Speaker 1 (32:43):
Yeah. No, I'm really looking forward exactly, the only kind
of of gambling eye support.
Speaker 2 (32:49):
And then secondly, we wanted to let you know that
your questions are not going unanswered. We're just saving them
for a mail bag next week. So next week we
will be answering all of your questions, not all of them,
many of your questions, and it'll be great.
Speaker 1 (33:08):
Yeah, I'm looking forward to it. There's been some great ones.
Please keep sending them in. It warms the heart actually,
like literally, it makes me very happy when people write in.
Speaker 2 (33:16):
All right, Daniel, I'm not going to tell you the
story of how you become a legend for a football
club despite only playing sixteen games for that football club
and only playing there for three months, one of which
you were injured.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
For great, So.
Speaker 2 (33:29):
All of your stories are about the big world and
interviewing Lionel Messi and hanging out in Peruvian prison playing football,
and all of my stories are about one football club
AFC Wimbledon, your favorite third tier English soccer team, everyone's
favorite third tier English soccer team. A little bit of
historical context is necessary for this story, which is that
(33:49):
in two thousand and one, the English Football Association decided
that Wimbledon FC, which had existed in Southwest London for
at that point, you know, one hundred and twenty years,
would move against the will of Wimbledon's fans, would move
to Milton Keynes, this pre planned city, and so Wimbledon
(34:11):
FC ostensively became MK Dons in Milton Keynes, and they
took over this thirty thousand seat stadium and stole Wimbledon's
league place, And then Wimbledon started back in the ninth
tier of English football and slowly worked their way up
to being a professional team again until by twenty twenty
(34:35):
four AFC Wimbledon and Milton Keynes. We don't call them
MK Dons just so you know, Daniel, we call them
the franchise currently plying their trade in Milton Keynes got it.
Milton Keynes were back in the same division, and Milton
Keynes and Wimbledon were in the same division, playing each
other twice a season. There are football rivalries, you know,
(34:57):
like between Arsenal and Tottenham or whatever, where you know,
there's a lot of disagreement and Spurs fans want to
see Arsenal fans suffer and they hate each other and
they have to be separated by lines of police and
whatever whatever, and all of that is real, and I
don't want to take anything away from all those football
rivalries Liverpool versus Manchester United, whatever, those are all intense rivalries.
(35:19):
The difference between say a Manchester City Manchester United rivalry
or an Arsenal Chelsea rivalry and the Wimbledon MK rivalry
is that this rivalry shouldn't exist because in the minds
of all Wimbledon fans and most world football fans, Milton
(35:39):
Keynes shouldn't have a team in the Football League because
they stole that spot, They stole that football club away,
They stole a community asset and relocated it. And so
it's a different kind of rivalry and it is properly intense.
It is. You know, I think most Wimbledon fans prefer
not to play Milton Keynes, would rather just the game
(36:01):
didn't exist. But it does exist. It's going to exist
next season as well. That's why I was thinking about
this story because MK got promoted. They're up in the
third division now and so next season they'll play Wimbledon twice.
In twenty twenty four, Wimbledon had never beaten Milton Keynes
at home in front of fans. They won a game
(36:21):
during COVID with the stadium empty, but they'd never beaten,
you know, beaten this team, and it was a real albatross.
You know, it was a real hard thing to do
because the players feel it really intensely. They feel the pressure.
(36:42):
The fans are booing the entire game. It's hard to
tell even who they're booing against. They just like hate everything.
The energy is just off. It's an intense energy, but
it's also just a it's a bad energy, to be
frank with you. And Wimbledon had just signed this guy,
(37:03):
Ronan Curtis. We signed him in January. He was a
free agent. He hadn't played it all the first half
of the season because no team had picked him up,
but we picked him up in the January transfer window
for free. You know, he was a bit of a journeyman.
You know, he'd played a lot of games for Portsmouth,
but he'd been released by Portsmouth and now he was
(37:24):
just trying to find a way to play football again,
and Wimbledon came calling and he joined up. He was
only there for three months, like I said, only played
sixteen games. But one of those games was against Milton
Keynes at home and after a scoreless ninety three minutes,
with about one minute left in the game, Milton Keynes
had an opportunity to score that you or I would
(37:47):
have finished. I mean, you definitely would have finished it.
I probably would have finished it. It was a empty
net and they managed to find a way to not score.
And that was the moment where I was like, all right,
it's going to be a nil nil draw and that's
a great outcome. Actually, you know, like we're gonna go
to the pub after this and we're all going to say, like,
that's a good point, and now we don't have to
(38:09):
think about them again for the rest of the season,
and you know, one day we'll win, but not today.
And then in the last minute of the game, for
some reason, our center back was playing left wing and
I mean wimbled it. It's very disorganized football down in
(38:29):
League One, to be honest with you, and so it's
not that surprising that the center back ended up playing
left wing. But somehow he ends up with the ball
on the left wing. It's like, yeah, exactly, crosses the
ball into the center and there's a moment. My friend
Lex was actually recording this, and so I have video
of myself and my friend Stuart and we start to
(38:52):
stand up because there's a moment where the ball is
going into the box and you realize this ball is
going to fall to Ronan Curtis, and Ronan Curtis is
going to do one of two things. He's either going
to do what the MK player just did, which is
wildly missed the goal, or he's going to bury it
in the back of the net. And if he buries
it in the back of the net, it's not just
that it means something for that moment, It's that it
(39:13):
means something for the twenty two years of moments that
came before, all the years that Wimbledon were down in
the ninth or eighth or seventh tier of English football,
you know, spending fifty cents to watch their team away
and sit on hey bales. This is a team that
was playing Manchester United in Liverpool, you know, in the
nineteen nineties, and here they are like down in the
combined Counties League playing east Ridge and Bromhall or whatever
(39:36):
the names of English towns are. And you know one
of these two things is going to happen. Either all
hope is going to be rewarded and we're going to
live outside of our bodies for the next several hours,
or we're going to like live with this disappointment. And
the truth of football is you almost always live with
the disappointment. Like you said to me once that when
(40:00):
and you're watching Peru, you don't even wait until the
striker misses to exclaim in misery, because you know the
striker will miss. Well, Wimbledon are even worse than Peru,
and so I start to stand up, and then Ronan
Curtis buries the ball in the back of the net.
And that's not even the miracle. The miracle is that
(40:22):
then he runs to the corner and he runs he
knows enough about he knows nothing of Wimbledon's history, but
he knows just enough to run to the fans who
own the club, to run to the fans who built
the stadium he's playing in, and he picks up this
ball boy, this pudgy nine year old ball boy, and
the ball boy is absolutely consumed by twenty six Wimbledon players,
(40:46):
by every coach, by everybody, until you can't see the
ball boy, and you can't even you don't even know
where the line is between the fans and the players,
because they're all in the stands together, and you see
little flashes of pink, which is this ball boy's you know,
little uniform, but that's all you see of the ball boy.
Later I talked to the ball boy and I was like,
(41:08):
that must have been very scary, and he said, this
is the best day of my life. And I said, well, buddy,
it's also the best day of my life. I have
two beautiful children, I had a wonderful wedding day, and
I've never felt this good, amazing.
Speaker 1 (41:26):
Oh man, I love that. I love that.
Speaker 2 (41:28):
I can't wait to go to a Navecy Wimbledon game.
So it's still called Curtis Corner. That corner of the
stadium is called Curtis Corner forever because of Ronan Curtis,
who then promptly left in May and has ever since
then played for port Vale and Plymouth Argyle. Good for him,
but he'll never have to buy his own beer, and
he'll never buy a beer in Wimbledon.
Speaker 1 (41:47):
Yeah, that's lovely, man, that's lovely. The lore that you're
building around this club, it's unreal. It's almost if they're
not a real team. They're just like this figment of
your imagination. You the novelists have invented the most perfect
underdog story that every sentient person with the you know,
(42:10):
basic moral compass can get behind. You know, I get question.
I don't. I don't actually want to google it if
AFC Wimbledon is real, because I feel like they might
be your greatest fictional creation, John, They would be if
they weren't real.
Speaker 2 (42:25):
If they were.
Speaker 1 (42:25):
Yeah, well, one day I'll fly to London and you're
gonna take me to Way. That's what I'll know they're real.
I'm not gonna know anything first. I don't even know
what colors.
Speaker 2 (42:36):
That's great. I love it. Don't don't find out anything.
You'll find out. You'll you'll you'll be surprised at the
club shop.
Speaker 1 (42:42):
Yeah, I'll be like, Wow, he built this whole Potempkin
Stadium just for me to attend that he hadn't made
this team up.
Speaker 2 (42:52):
I love it. Well, we'll be back next week with
a mail Bag episode where we're going to answer your questions,
look deep into the hearts of our listensteners, and respond
hopefully with empathy and thoughtfulness, but also probably a bit
of good cheer in the meantime. Thank you to Kurt
and Sean and Daniel for making this pod with me.
What a joy it is, and that will see you
(43:13):
next week sounds good.
Speaker 1 (43:14):
Thanks John,
Welcome to your way, and I'm Amiel Alarcon.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
I'm John Green.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
John. We have a lot to talk about today, but
I guess I wanted to start with a question for you.
You are a fan of an opposing team, and I've
discovered the closer that Arsenal get to the possibility of
maybe winning a Premier League, that all the people that
I thought were my friends actually are hate my team
(00:30):
with like white hot passion and want Arsenal to lose
and want me to be unhappy and can't even bear
the thought of me smiling. And I just was wondering,
as a fan of another team, why do you think
that is? Why does everyone hate Arsenal so much?
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Well, I think Arsenal are the most dislike team according
to a social media recent social media study, and everyone
knows that those social media studies are totally reliable. I
think that there are a few things going on here.
I mean, first off, I don't think about when I
think about Arsenal winning the league. I don't think about
you being happy, because that brings me no joy. I
think about the Sierra Leonian tuberculosis survivor who told me
(01:05):
North London forever being happy and that brings me joy.
There are always fans that you should be happy for.
I mean, Arsenal are one of the biggest clubs in
the world. I think that's part of it, and they've
been in hard times. It's like if Manchester United were
to suddenly succeed again, Manchester United would become the most
hated club in the Premier League because people don't like
to see big clubs succeed. It's kind of a bummer.
(01:26):
But I would argue it's a bigger bummer to watch
man City succeed with their one hundred and fifteen or
however many charges for financial malfeasance and the fact that
you know, an infinite amount of state money came into
a football club and allowed it to become what Manchester
City has become, to me is a much bigger bummer
(01:46):
than Arsenal succeeding.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
See John, that's what I thought. That's what I thought,
and then you know, here's what happened. Let me just
paint a picture for you and then you can go
back to your take on this. So, as you know,
last weekend Arsenal was beating west Ham, won nothing and
in extra time an injury time basically ninety something minute,
(02:09):
a goal is scored off a corner kick of a
west Ham corner and then it's a judged that the
west Ham striker had basically thrown his arm into David
Raya's neck and was holding his other arm and that
was a foul.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
I think that's the critical thing. The critical thing is
that the west Ham player was preventing David Rayah from
raising his arm by holding his arm down, and therefore
Rayah did not get to the ball, or he kind
of got to the ball, but he wasn't able to
really get a big punch on it because someone was
holding his arm down. And that's its unambiguous foul. And
(02:49):
the thing is everyone agrees that it's a foul. Yes,
this gets to one of the but people will say, now, oh,
you know, video assistant referee handed Arsenal the title. This
gets to one of my big frustrations with contemporary football discourse,
which is that we act like these purportedly controversial moments
(03:10):
are the moments that actually determine the winner of the
Premier League, rather than acknowledging that over a thirty eight
game season that stuff evens out, which it does. There
is no bias against big clubs. There is no bias
toward Arsenal among the referees. What it boils down to
is that we like to have conversations about controversial moments
because we can't have conversations about whether or not ninety
(03:34):
nine percent of Arsenal's you know, one hundred goals this
season or goals. Instead, we have conversations about the one
or two that might be controversial. But in this case
it's actually not controversial. Like I've had this argument with
a bunch of my friends where I've said, well, it
was a foul, and they write back, yes, it was
a foul, but there were other times when Arsenal committed
(03:54):
fouls on goalkeepers and scored from corners, And this is
what means that it's been unfair the whole time, and
they weren't saying that before this foul was committed. So
to me, it's all illegitimate, it's all bad faith. But
what it reminds me of is really important going into
the World Cup, I think, which is that we will
(04:15):
end up focusing on the controversial moments, but the teams
that win the World Cup will not win the World
Cup because of primarily because of controversial moments. They will
win the World Cup because they are better and they
play better on the day and they win the game
on the day. And we need to on the internet especially,
we are so obsessed with what can divide us with
(04:37):
the arguments that can create two easy camps. It was
a foul and David Raya, it wasn't a foul on
David Raya. Arsenal deserve to win the Premier League. Arsenal
don't deserve to win the Premier League. We are so
obsessed with any wedge issue that can split us into
two neat groups, where you know, one is on the
side of all that is right and noble in the world,
and the other is on the side of evil that like,
(04:59):
we do this sports and it's it's even it's it's
much dumber in sports than it is in the rest
of life. Because it was a foul. Everyone acknowledges it
was a foul, and and you're watching it and even
like on the commentators were like, yeah, it was a foul,
but no, no, but it was a foul, and so
it of course it was called back. Of course it
(05:20):
doesn't count as a goal because it wasn't a goal,
because there was a foul in the lead up to
the goal.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
Right, I hear you on that. I mean, obviously I
hear you on that because I'm an Arsenal fan and
if you want to.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
Know, you don't have to be an Arsenal fan to
know that was a foul.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
But that's okay. But yes, but here's what I want
to point out, because here's the crazy part. Right, So,
as our listeners will know, west Ham and Tottenham are
basically fighting it out to see who gets relegated or
who gets to stay up, I guess, and that call
that would have given west Ham a point, but took
that point away and gave Arsenal three points, left west
Ham with no points benefited primarily Spurs. So both sides
(05:58):
of North London, Tottenham and Arsenal benefited from that call.
And so you would think you would think that Tottenham
fans would, through their fury, be able to see, hey,
this is actually not only the right call but also
it benefits us. But no, there was a pylon from
Tottenham fans and it was almost friends of mine in
(06:22):
you know, people I quite like people who are friends
of mine, you know, And there was like all of
this talk, you know, Arsenal cheating, blah blah, and I
was like, do you prefer to go down? Is that
what you're saying is like, is that the the argument
that's being made here? Because not only was this the
right call, but it was also a direct benefit, directly
(06:46):
benefiting Spurs, Hans and Tottenams.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
Okay, Daniel, I think you have hit upon the second
thing that drives me crazy about contemporary internet discourse, which
is that we would rather see our enemies suffer than
ourselves do.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
Well.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
I think that those Tottenham fans genuinely would rather go
down and have Arsenal not win the title than have
Arsenal win the title and not go down. I think
it's wow, so horrifying the I think that's that has
to be it, right, Otherwise they would say thank you
var for saving us from going down. And this is
(07:24):
a problem not just in sports, this is a problem
in the regular real world, where seeing our enemies suffer.
Schadenfreude is so much more enjoyable a form of shodden
than just pleasure. That we want to see our enemies suffer,
even unto our own misery.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
Wow, it's wild to me. It's wild to me, and
I actually had a friend of mine, Spurs fan, tell me,
ask me if I preferred not winning the PREM if
Spurs went down, and I was like, no, absolutely not.
I would obviously rather win the PREM. And I've been
on the record like if Spurs go down, I would
never stop laughing. I think would be hilarious. But if
(08:05):
you give me a choice between not winning the PREM
and Spurs going down or winning the PREM and Spurs
staying up, like one thousand times, I would choose to
win the Premier League because the other thing is inconceivable
to me. It's irrelevant in my life if Spurs stay
in the Premier League or not. But winning the league
would give me as a fan. And again I've been
(08:25):
a fan. I've never seen us win the Premier League.
I might never see us win the Premier League. You
never know. It would give me such joy, it would be,
it would be a beautiful thing, and I would I
would relish it. And you know, Spurs's travails is of
no consequence in my emotional life really aside from a
little laughter.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
Yeah. But I think that this is because you're not
chronically online. I think if you were chronically online like
I am, you would experience more joy in the failure
of others and less joy and the success of yourself
and your team.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
I would quibble with that. I'm really petty. I mean,
I'm super petty, you know. I was just thinking today.
I was thinking today as I was putting on my
purple shoes. I was like, Wow, if all it takes
for Real Madrid to never win a trophy is for
me to buy a pair of Real Madrid shoes every year, like,
maybe it's worth it, because I just find when Real
Madrid fails to be that to be so funny. I
(09:19):
was like, ah, maybe I'm petty enough to consider that.
I mean, obviously it won't do it, but I'm petty
enough to consider that. Uh. You know, I just don't
I want you to think that I'm some kind of like,
you know, perfectly generous, uh, you know, elegant fan, because
I definitely am not.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
No, no, no, I understand that you're a petty person.
But you would rather see Arsenal succeed than Tottenham fail.
And I actually think that, in contemporary discourse, makes you
a little unusual.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
Hm hmm. Interesting.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
I would also rather see my team succeed then, and
maybe it's generational. I don't know byan. I would also
rather see like this year at AFC Wimbledon's Big rivals
and this this is a bit of a spoil or
from my story in part three, But this year AFC
Wimbledon's Big Rivals got promoted and I didn't think about
it at all. I don't, I don't. All I think
(10:09):
is well, that means we play them twice and that's
going to be uncomfortable and weird. But like, I don't,
I don't care the whole point, you know. Uh there.
I'm reminded of one time I was talking to someone
who graduated from Yale, and like everyone who graduated from Yale,
he let me know almost immediately and he uh he said,
(10:32):
you know, at Yale, we used to say Harvard sucks
in Princeton doesn't matter. And I always loved that insult
because the idea of not mattering is so much worse
than sucking. And like, that's how I feel about Milton Keynes,
like they don't matter, and I think that's way, way,
way more powerful than hating something is being like, oh,
(10:54):
I'm sorry, you just don't matter very much to me.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
Did I tell you about my my uncle Ubert and
what he told me about childs when I was like
thirteen years old. Okay, the context here is important, as
you know, we were I was being raised in Birmingham, Alabama,
peruven family, five or six proven families in our neighborhood.
We all knew each other obviously, and my Deallbert was
like my pediatrician and also close family friend. He had
(11:19):
grown up with my dad and how to keep up,
and his kids were a little bit older than me.
But we were all kind of friends and hung out
and stuff. So one day I was over there and
he was like, I was washing the cars with with
my uncle and he says to me out of nowhere.
First of all, he told me that the Incas were
seven feet tall, which I was like, huh okay, yeah,
And I was like why, I asked him, I remember,
(11:41):
why why are proving so short? Then? And he was
like the Spanish, the Spanish ruined Dutch and Spanish the
Spanish influence. Yeah. So I was like okay, well, okay, sure,
and then he said to me he started getting on
it like very nationalists, and he said to me, he's like, Nanny,
one day you will meet at chilean I was like okay,
and he was like, and you will tell him you're
(12:02):
Peruvian and he won't be able to look you in
the eye because he'll be so ashamed of what his
people did to your people. And I was like, wow,
it's like Birmingham, like nineteen ninety. Yeah, I'm like okay.
So many years later, I was in Santiago to Chile,
and I was at a restaurant with a friend of
mine and some friend of hers had won some award
(12:25):
and they were all celebrating. She's like, come along, everyone's
being super nice, and I don't know why. I'd had
a couple of glasses of wine. Chilean wine is delicious, amazing,
and I just I don't know what possessed me to
tell the random Chilean guys today next to me this story.
And then he was like huh. He was basically like,
Princeton doesn't matter to me. He was like, no, actually, actually,
(12:49):
we just don't think about you guys very much. It
was like really, wait, wait, wait, wait, hold on, when
finish the story, because he points out in this restaurant
there was these giant paintings and the painting was of
the War of the Pacific and a Chilean guy planting
a flag and a bunch of dead Peruvin soldiers like
around him, like classical, like very like West, you know,
kind of like a classical painting, you know, realist and
(13:13):
kind of heroic. And there's all these dead Peruvins around
this Chilean planting a flag. And I was like, so
his response to like, I was expecting him because my
uncle had told me that he would apologize, And his
response was like, oh, look at all those dead Peruvins.
And then he was like, want more wine? And I
was like, yes, please, just.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
Give me the bottle.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
Just give me the bottle.
Speaker 2 (13:35):
Yeah, this reminds me of an ex girlfriend's story. I
think I'm I think I'm sworn by by obligation only
to tell one ex girlfriend's story on this podcast. But
so I'll use my I'll use my exemption. This time.
I a girl and I had broken up, but we
were still friends ostensibly, and we went on this hiking
(13:57):
trip together in Denali National Park and it was you know,
we were hiking above the clouds and the tundra and
it was really beautiful. And I said to her, you know,
why do you think we broke up? And she said, well,
have you ever fallen out of love with someone? And
I said, I guess And she said, I guess I
kind of fell out of like with you.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (14:22):
Wow. Yeah. Yeah, such a thing as too hard. It
sucks and Princeton doesn't matter.
Speaker 1 (14:28):
Yeah, there's such a thing as too honest. John, You've
done a remarkable job recovering from that.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
Really. Thank you, Yeah, thank you. We're gonna We're gonna
throw to a break now so that I can off
the record tell Daniel the other story about this same person.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
Sounds great. Okay, we'll be right back on new end.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
Welcome back to the away, and I think you're going
to introduce us to the beautiful game.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
Oh jogo bonito. Yeah. I actually was excited to do
this Brazil deep dive because when I think of, you know,
last week we spoke with Simon Cooper, who wrote this
wonderful book World Cup Fever, and we talked a lot
about national identity and how at different moments, stylistic ways
of playing football had been very identified with different nations,
and I think probably Brazil is the country that is
(15:26):
most identified with the style of play. There's a phrase
for it, jogo bonito. The beautiful game. And when we
think of Brazil, we think of the Peleis, we think of,
you know, the fabulous nineteen seventy squad. That it was
a team that was both like elegant and entertaining. They
were winners, but they also like redefined football. It was
(15:47):
like they were I mean, and this is obviously cliche,
and my apologies to all Brazilian listeners, but it was
like they were dancing zamba while they were playing. It
was a style that was deeply rooted in national identity.
Like almost tactics were less important than aesthetics. Football had
to be beautiful, alive, attacking, and they won. They won
playing this game in part, I think because you know,
we're talking about nineteen seventies. You know, it was before
(16:13):
you know, Latin America exported its best players to Europe.
So there was a real sort of like the teams
from Europe would play the teams from Latin America and
it was like encountering a style they hadn't played before.
They didn't know what to do. And so this football
and culture not only produced World Cup winning teams but
also some of the greatest players that we've ever seen.
You know, I remember them. I'm sure you do do
(16:34):
as well. Ronaldo obviously the first one. Ronaldo, the real one,
or Gordino they call him now because he's put on
a little weight.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
There's an amazing song about Ronaldo that I've always loved.
He's big, he's round, He's worth a million pounds. Ranaldo.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
Ronaldo was fantastic, I mean of phenomenal. I mean he
was God what a player. Man a player and also
has a beautiful narrative arc of like his his panic
attack before the ninety eight World Cup final, winning it
in two thousand and two, his terrible haircut, you know,
like all these things like he's just you know, multiple
(17:13):
times he came back from ACL injuries back in the
day before they had these kind of like you know,
magical surgeries that they do now where they're like wizards.
Like back then they would like staple your ACL together
and tied it a not or something. Just a wonderful player.
But to me, I want to mention my absolute hero
growing up was Ronaldinho. I mean, dno, man, you know,
(17:35):
the most electric and audacious player ever to put on cleats.
I mean you just never knew what he was going
to do. Fearless and you just never you couldn't defend
him because even he didn't know what he was going
to do next. But he was just brazen about attempting
the craziest things later, like entering Paraguay without a without
(17:59):
a passport and ending up in a prison. But that's
a whole another story, which maybe will tell on this
very pod one day. Okay, So here's the baseline. Brazil
are football's unquestioned elite. They've won the Copamitica nine times,
most recently in twenty nineteen against Peru in the final.
I should say at an international level, only Brazil has
won five World Cups nineteen fifty eight, sixty two, seventy,
(18:21):
ninety four and two thousand and two. Okay, but let's
be honest, two thousand and two was a while ago,
and they haven't really looked like themselves for several World
Cup cycles now. Even in ninety four when they won,
and also in two thousand and two, a lot of
Brazilians criticized the team for playing more kind of pragmatic football,
a little bit more defensive, as opposed to the jogo
(18:43):
bonito that we all associate with them. So that's the
context even of their last two World Cup victories. Then
comes twenty fourteen, and John, I want to ask you
where were you when Germany and Brazil played in the
twenty fourteen World Cup semifinal.
Speaker 2 (19:01):
I was in Union Peer, Michigan, and I remember that
Brazil had played pretty poorly throughout the tournament. They never
looked like they were firing on all cylinders. That World
Cup was in Brazil, right, it was in Brazil. That's
an important part of the context. It was in Brazil,
(19:21):
and so I remember that, like, they didn't look good
in the group, but they had a really weak group
because they were a host nation. They didn't look good
in the round of sixteen, and then suddenly they're in
the semifinals, and I remember having a bad feeling, like
as as somebody who follows Brazil, I remember having a
bad feeling that said, I could never have imagined what occurred.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
Right, You couldn't have imagined. I don't think anyone could
have imagined it. I think the context you mentioned that
Brazil were the host country is very important. I think
everyone in Brazil expected them to win. It was like
their birthright. You know, you host the World Cup, you
have to win it. If you're in Brazil. They in
the in the they had your right to say that
they hadn't played particularly well, but they had They had Neymar,
(20:06):
and basically the plan was to keep the game close
and then have Neymar do something spectacular, and he often did.
He was incredible that that tournament. However, in the quarterfinal
they played against Columbia and Neymar was fouled with a
knee in the back and nearly had his back broken,
apparently was centimeters away from from being paralyzed, and so
(20:28):
they played. They entered the semifinal without Neymar and also
without Jago Silva, who was their captain and their best defender.
And then we all know what happened. They go out
to play Germany, a kind of prototypically like the most
organized European team around, and they got They didn't just
get beaten, they got humiliated, humiliated. I remember watching this
(20:49):
game at a Cafe Jenny Cafe in Oakland, and some
of the goals were so similar, and they were coming
so quickly that people thought they were replaced. You know.
I called my dad at halftime and my dad was
speech He was like, I was like, what's happening, what's happening?
Speaker 2 (21:07):
Yeah, so Brazil lost seven to one, which flattered them
as a score line, like they could have easily lost
by more than seven to one, but Germany kind of
took Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
Absolutely, I think the first half was so easy for
Germany that they didn't even know what it was happening.
They themselves were confused, and it really was a brutal humiliation.
Seven to one is an unthinkable score line in a
World Cup semifinal. And I guess the question is this
has Brazil recovered And I would argue that they haven't.
(21:42):
I would argue that they are still sort of dealing
with the hangover from that humiliation they went out in
the quarters in twenty eighteen and twenty twenty two. You know,
going on the quarters is respectable if you're the US
men's national team. If you're Brazil, it's not, you know,
(22:03):
And I guess, you know begs the question, can you
win on Aura alone? And can you win on Aura
after that Ora has been so thoroughly damaged. If it's
the Copamenica final and it's against Peru, then yeah you
can maybe, you know, But if it's against a strong
European side like Belgium in twenty eighteen or Croati in
twenty twenty two, then maybe not. I mean demonstrably they've
been unable to get past that. Brazil has some of
(22:26):
the most talented players in the world, undoubtedly mentioned a
couple in attack, you know, Vinni Junior, Rafina, you know,
to the top players in La Liga, possibly Neymar though
he isn't the player that he was. And you know
we're recording on Monday morning. This afternoon, the Brazilian national team,
you know, will be announced name ar may or may
(22:47):
not be in that team. You're listening from the future,
so you already know what Carlo Ancelotti has done with Neymar.
I would argue, and again I'm not arguing against Jogo Bonito,
but I am argu doing that. In tournaments, you know,
defense is very important, though we tend to focus on
players like Vinnie Junior, who were all excitement and kind
(23:07):
of the heirs of Ronaldinho. I think just as significant,
if not more so. We're going to be Markinos from PSG,
Gabrielle from Arsenal, Bruno Gui Mariesch from Newcastle or Casimiro
from Man United. That is the stalwarts center of the
park that is going to keep the other teams from
getting too close to your goal and hopefully keeping clean sheets,
(23:29):
which is another thing that matters in these tournaments. There's
some significant absentees from Brazil, Rodrigo Elmigitao Estevao from Chelsea
who was a really young, exciting player, and even Rafina.
You know, I think he'll be in the squad for sure,
but you know, he's had an injury hit season and
last season he was arguably the best player at Barcelona,
and I think this season, with the injuries and whatnot,
(23:51):
he hasn't been the wild card for all. This is
the man in the legend Carlo Ancelotti. I would have
to fact check this, John, but I believe it's the
first time they're going to have a foreign manager for
the national side. And he's not just any manager, John,
he is the greatest club manager in history, five time
(24:11):
Champions League winner, six domestic league titles in Spain and Italy, France, Germany, England.
I mean, this is a man who knows how to
how to manage egos at the very highest level, how
to get the best out of his players, you know,
even in in in you know, in difficult circumstances. I
think he's proven He's a serial winner, and now he's
(24:35):
going to try to replicate that magic with the most
iconic national side in the sport. And I think it's
just going to be a very fascinating watch, even if
the football is not going to be at the level
that we associate with Brazil, because we see that yellow jersey,
that iconic yellow jersey, we just think God ruin for retreat.
(24:55):
It's probably not going to be that. You know, Simon
Cooper was telling us that last week as well. You
know that the the tournament doesn't allow for that anymore
in some ways. But I think if they win, no
one will care. If they win, no one will care.
Everyone will be dancing and it'll be great. I want
to say. I saw once John, I think the greatest
(25:17):
woman to ever play the sport, Martha from Brazil. I
saw her play in a championship game and it was
it wasn't the women's league that we currently have in
the It was an earlier iteration of the women's like MLS. Basically,
she was playing on a team based in the Bay
Area and I went and it was a very small
(25:40):
stadium outside Oakland, at like literally at some community college,
and there were Brazilians there with the drums, with the tambourines,
and this the whole game, a steady beat, the whole game.
And it was just infectious to see her play and
to see Brazilian fans supporting, you know, in this case,
not even the national team, just to play and not
(26:00):
just any player, Marta who look it up. Just an
absolute class player, you know, one of the best ever.
And I think she scored a brace that day. She
was incredible. So the other I think wildcard I mentioned
Carlo Ancelotti. The other wild card are the fans, and
you know, Brazilian fans are the greatest. And I kind
(26:21):
of want to end with just a little sort of
what we've been doing. Some recommendations from Brazil. I saw
The Secret Agent that film. Did you get to see
that time?
Speaker 2 (26:29):
Yeah? It was great.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
What a beautiful film. I'm in for an Oscar last year.
I want to recommend Clarice le Spector, who I'm sure
you've read of The Star is a great place to start.
Wonderful writer, such an interesting story too. And the band
there's kind of this whole seventies kind of psychedelic Brazilian rock,
(26:51):
vibe rock, sort of like movement that happened to Picaalia,
And my favorite of that kind of vibe is this
band called Sickles in Ohio's and I would just recommend
that to anybody who happens to be listening, just go
down the rabbit hole of like Brazilian psychedelic rock from
the seventies. It's incredible. And I for one, you know,
(27:11):
like when we did our hierarchy of loyalties, John, I
didn't have Brazil at the very top of the of
my South American teams in part because they've humiliated and
embarrassed through so often that it's hard to root for them. However,
if it comes down to it and it's Brazil against
any any other European team or any other team that
isn't Latin American, I will absolutely one hundred percent throw
(27:32):
on the yellow jersey and support Brazil because because they've
given me so much joy in the past. So many
Brazilian players have just made me smile with their creativity
and their audacity, and world football is better for the
presence of Brazil, and I hope they go very far
in the tournament.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
Yeah, I agree, And I have to say Brazilian fans
are not just only remarkable when it comes to football,
they're also remarkable when it comes to novels. My books
translated into Portuguese became big best sellers in Brazil in
the twenty tens. And it was the coolest experience, one
of the coolest experiences of my life, to be able
to visit Brazil and meet some of those fans and
(28:12):
they were like waiting for me outside the hotel and
it was like, I felt like Tom Cruise. It was crazy, Wow,
it's really cold, so love a love a Brazilian fan.
And then everybody would give me jerseys from their look,
from their club team, and I would like Then the
next day I would wear a jersey and people would
be like, I can't believe you're supporting that team instead
of the other teams. And I was like, well, this
(28:32):
is just what the so anyway, now I have like
six different club jerseys from you know what you should
have done to everything.
Speaker 1 (28:40):
Else, Yeah, we should have done. John is just where
the national team jersey, which I've discovered having seen a
few bands. You know, foreign bands come to Borda, everyone
comes and throws on the jersey like at some point
in their concert at Sharon was here last weekend and
we went to see him and at Charon threw onto
the national team jersey. He's not going to throw on
the Santa Fe or the meals jersey. You know, he's
got to throw the right He's a smart man and everyone. Yeah,
(29:02):
so like you can get behind it. This is a
really cool Flameno jersey. And then you're gonna get all
the anti Flamengo haters, you know, with words to say.
So right the way it goes where we're just where
the national team jersey good wesson.
Speaker 2 (29:16):
For me, we're the national jersey when you travel. Yeah. Well,
I also hope Brazil do well in this World Cup.
No spoilers for my eventual bracket, but I'm pretty enthusiastic.
I will say I think the loss of Rodrigo is
super significant. I think that he would have been a key,
(29:38):
key player for Brazil and so I think that's a
big loss. But I still think they've got a lot
of special players.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
There was I want to mention one thing that happened
this weekend that is one of those things that is
I can understand why everyone was upset, but also it's
a little bit funny. I'm sorry. I apologizes to nay
our stands and Brazilians everywhere, but U it was it
was Neymar's last chance to impress Carlo Ancelotti the game
this weekend, and there was a mistake on the board
(30:07):
and they accidentally substituted him with like thirty minutes to go.
He was like very upset, I mean very upset, you know,
as if like this last thirty and this last thirty
minutes was going to prove, you know, he was going
to score a hat trick in the last thirty minutes
and and and prove that that he was worth taking
a risk on. Anyway, it was I just thought it
(30:28):
was just one of those things that dare I say spursy,
you know, was just a very yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
I saw the I saw the team sheet. Neymar was
holding the sheet saying, look, this is the wrong substitution.
But they made it so they'd already done it.
Speaker 1 (30:45):
It was done.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
It was very spursy.
Speaker 1 (30:47):
And if you want to feel old, you know the
player that they brought on, did you know this, The
player that they brought on to replace no Neymar by
accident was Robinho Junior.
Speaker 2 (30:57):
No, no, but Robinho is only forty.
Speaker 1 (31:01):
That's how old you are John. That's how old you are?
Speaker 2 (31:04):
God? He just retired.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
Yeah, you know the play so old. Do you remember
Bebeto from ninety four? Yeah, you'll remember it this okay.
The Beetel famously celebrated a goal by rocking the cradle,
you know, like because his wife had just had a baby.
Speaker 2 (31:21):
M hm.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
That baby is now like in their thirties. You know,
that baby would already be retired basically, you know.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, if I met that baby, I would
be like, this is a peer basically, even though I
was in my mind the adult in nineteen ninety four.
Speaker 1 (31:41):
Yeah, I was there.
Speaker 2 (31:43):
Yeah, that's wild. Life is strange. Aging is very weird.
Hopefully Brazil is able to recapture some of their earlier magic.
We shall see. After the break, I'm going to tell
a story about how you become a football legend in
just three months. Hey Daniel, we're back on the away End.
(32:13):
Before we get to my story, I just want to
talk about two things. First off, a fan made awayendbracket
dot Com, where you, as an Away End fan, can
go and join other away End listeners in a bracket
pool competition and we will give the winner a prize
to be determined a non monetary prize, right, of course,
(32:35):
that's the only kind of prize, Daniel. Yeah, okay, good, good, good, yeah, wonderful,
the kind of prize that makes everyone smile.
Speaker 1 (32:43):
Yeah. No, I'm really looking forward exactly, the only kind
of of gambling eye support.
Speaker 2 (32:49):
And then secondly, we wanted to let you know that
your questions are not going unanswered. We're just saving them
for a mail bag next week. So next week we
will be answering all of your questions, not all of them,
many of your questions, and it'll be great.
Speaker 1 (33:08):
Yeah, I'm looking forward to it. There's been some great ones.
Please keep sending them in. It warms the heart actually,
like literally, it makes me very happy when people write in.
Speaker 2 (33:16):
All right, Daniel, I'm not going to tell you the
story of how you become a legend for a football
club despite only playing sixteen games for that football club
and only playing there for three months, one of which
you were injured.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
For great, So.
Speaker 2 (33:29):
All of your stories are about the big world and
interviewing Lionel Messi and hanging out in Peruvian prison playing football,
and all of my stories are about one football club
AFC Wimbledon, your favorite third tier English soccer team, everyone's
favorite third tier English soccer team. A little bit of
historical context is necessary for this story, which is that
(33:49):
in two thousand and one, the English Football Association decided
that Wimbledon FC, which had existed in Southwest London for
at that point, you know, one hundred and twenty years,
would move against the will of Wimbledon's fans, would move
to Milton Keynes, this pre planned city, and so Wimbledon
(34:11):
FC ostensively became MK Dons in Milton Keynes, and they
took over this thirty thousand seat stadium and stole Wimbledon's
league place, And then Wimbledon started back in the ninth
tier of English football and slowly worked their way up
to being a professional team again until by twenty twenty
(34:35):
four AFC Wimbledon and Milton Keynes. We don't call them
MK Dons just so you know, Daniel, we call them
the franchise currently plying their trade in Milton Keynes got it.
Milton Keynes were back in the same division, and Milton
Keynes and Wimbledon were in the same division, playing each
other twice a season. There are football rivalries, you know,
(34:57):
like between Arsenal and Tottenham or whatever, where you know,
there's a lot of disagreement and Spurs fans want to
see Arsenal fans suffer and they hate each other and
they have to be separated by lines of police and
whatever whatever, and all of that is real, and I
don't want to take anything away from all those football
rivalries Liverpool versus Manchester United, whatever, those are all intense rivalries.
(35:19):
The difference between say a Manchester City Manchester United rivalry
or an Arsenal Chelsea rivalry and the Wimbledon MK rivalry
is that this rivalry shouldn't exist because in the minds
of all Wimbledon fans and most world football fans, Milton
(35:39):
Keynes shouldn't have a team in the Football League because
they stole that spot, They stole that football club away,
They stole a community asset and relocated it. And so
it's a different kind of rivalry and it is properly intense.
It is. You know, I think most Wimbledon fans prefer
not to play Milton Keynes, would rather just the game
(36:01):
didn't exist. But it does exist. It's going to exist
next season as well. That's why I was thinking about
this story because MK got promoted. They're up in the
third division now and so next season they'll play Wimbledon twice.
In twenty twenty four, Wimbledon had never beaten Milton Keynes
at home in front of fans. They won a game
(36:21):
during COVID with the stadium empty, but they'd never beaten,
you know, beaten this team, and it was a real albatross.
You know, it was a real hard thing to do
because the players feel it really intensely. They feel the pressure.
(36:42):
The fans are booing the entire game. It's hard to
tell even who they're booing against. They just like hate everything.
The energy is just off. It's an intense energy, but
it's also just a it's a bad energy, to be
frank with you. And Wimbledon had just signed this guy,
(37:03):
Ronan Curtis. We signed him in January. He was a
free agent. He hadn't played it all the first half
of the season because no team had picked him up,
but we picked him up in the January transfer window
for free. You know, he was a bit of a journeyman.
You know, he'd played a lot of games for Portsmouth,
but he'd been released by Portsmouth and now he was
(37:24):
just trying to find a way to play football again,
and Wimbledon came calling and he joined up. He was
only there for three months, like I said, only played
sixteen games. But one of those games was against Milton
Keynes at home and after a scoreless ninety three minutes,
with about one minute left in the game, Milton Keynes
had an opportunity to score that you or I would
(37:47):
have finished. I mean, you definitely would have finished it.
I probably would have finished it. It was a empty
net and they managed to find a way to not score.
And that was the moment where I was like, all right,
it's going to be a nil nil draw and that's
a great outcome. Actually, you know, like we're gonna go
to the pub after this and we're all going to say, like,
that's a good point, and now we don't have to
(38:09):
think about them again for the rest of the season,
and you know, one day we'll win, but not today.
And then in the last minute of the game, for
some reason, our center back was playing left wing and
I mean wimbled it. It's very disorganized football down in
(38:29):
League One, to be honest with you, and so it's
not that surprising that the center back ended up playing
left wing. But somehow he ends up with the ball
on the left wing. It's like, yeah, exactly, crosses the
ball into the center and there's a moment. My friend
Lex was actually recording this, and so I have video
of myself and my friend Stuart and we start to
(38:52):
stand up because there's a moment where the ball is
going into the box and you realize this ball is
going to fall to Ronan Curtis, and Ronan Curtis is
going to do one of two things. He's either going
to do what the MK player just did, which is
wildly missed the goal, or he's going to bury it
in the back of the net. And if he buries
it in the back of the net, it's not just
that it means something for that moment, It's that it
(39:13):
means something for the twenty two years of moments that
came before, all the years that Wimbledon were down in
the ninth or eighth or seventh tier of English football,
you know, spending fifty cents to watch their team away
and sit on hey bales. This is a team that
was playing Manchester United in Liverpool, you know, in the
nineteen nineties, and here they are like down in the
combined Counties League playing east Ridge and Bromhall or whatever
(39:36):
the names of English towns are. And you know one
of these two things is going to happen. Either all
hope is going to be rewarded and we're going to
live outside of our bodies for the next several hours,
or we're going to like live with this disappointment. And
the truth of football is you almost always live with
the disappointment. Like you said to me once that when
(40:00):
and you're watching Peru, you don't even wait until the
striker misses to exclaim in misery, because you know the
striker will miss. Well, Wimbledon are even worse than Peru,
and so I start to stand up, and then Ronan
Curtis buries the ball in the back of the net.
And that's not even the miracle. The miracle is that
(40:22):
then he runs to the corner and he runs he
knows enough about he knows nothing of Wimbledon's history, but
he knows just enough to run to the fans who
own the club, to run to the fans who built
the stadium he's playing in, and he picks up this
ball boy, this pudgy nine year old ball boy, and
the ball boy is absolutely consumed by twenty six Wimbledon players,
(40:46):
by every coach, by everybody, until you can't see the
ball boy, and you can't even you don't even know
where the line is between the fans and the players,
because they're all in the stands together, and you see
little flashes of pink, which is this ball boy's you know,
little uniform, but that's all you see of the ball boy.
Later I talked to the ball boy and I was like,
(41:08):
that must have been very scary, and he said, this
is the best day of my life. And I said, well, buddy,
it's also the best day of my life. I have
two beautiful children, I had a wonderful wedding day, and
I've never felt this good, amazing.
Speaker 1 (41:26):
Oh man, I love that. I love that.
Speaker 2 (41:28):
I can't wait to go to a Navecy Wimbledon game.
So it's still called Curtis Corner. That corner of the
stadium is called Curtis Corner forever because of Ronan Curtis,
who then promptly left in May and has ever since
then played for port Vale and Plymouth Argyle. Good for him,
but he'll never have to buy his own beer, and
he'll never buy a beer in Wimbledon.
Speaker 1 (41:47):
Yeah, that's lovely, man, that's lovely. The lore that you're
building around this club, it's unreal. It's almost if they're
not a real team. They're just like this figment of
your imagination. You the novelists have invented the most perfect
underdog story that every sentient person with the you know,
(42:10):
basic moral compass can get behind. You know, I get question.
I don't. I don't actually want to google it if
AFC Wimbledon is real, because I feel like they might
be your greatest fictional creation, John, They would be if
they weren't real.
Speaker 2 (42:25):
If they were.
Speaker 1 (42:25):
Yeah, well, one day I'll fly to London and you're
gonna take me to Way. That's what I'll know they're real.
I'm not gonna know anything first. I don't even know
what colors.
Speaker 2 (42:36):
That's great. I love it. Don't don't find out anything.
You'll find out. You'll you'll you'll be surprised at the
club shop.
Speaker 1 (42:42):
Yeah, I'll be like, Wow, he built this whole Potempkin
Stadium just for me to attend that he hadn't made
this team up.
Speaker 2 (42:52):
I love it. Well, we'll be back next week with
a mail Bag episode where we're going to answer your questions,
look deep into the hearts of our listensteners, and respond
hopefully with empathy and thoughtfulness, but also probably a bit
of good cheer in the meantime. Thank you to Kurt
and Sean and Daniel for making this pod with me.
What a joy it is, and that will see you
(43:13):
next week sounds good.
Speaker 1 (43:14):
Thanks John,
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