May 27, 2026 • 54 mins
After Daniel takes a victory lap for his (Arsenal's) finish atop the Premiere League and talks about sharing the joy with his son Eliseo, albeit for different reasons, John, Daniel, and Sean read and discuss several listener questions. Plus a most excellent listener story about being an American in Spain while Spain was winning the World Cup!
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
Welcome to the Way, and I Danielle Alarcon.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
I'm John Green and today we're joined by the invisible
puppet master behind our entire operation, our producer Sean Titone.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
Hi.
Speaker 3 (00:16):
Sean, Hey, John, Hey Daniel.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
Good to see you guys, as always good to see
you man.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
So we're waiting on a mail bag show and I
think that's very important, and that's why we've got Sean today.
He's going to ask us questions and help us through
the mail bag. Thank you for all your questions at
awayndpod at gmail dot com. But today we need to
do something first, which is congratulate our friend Daniel on
(00:43):
his big winning of the Premier League.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
It's huge. It's huge for me personally. It's also I
want to take full I want it all by myself.
Is an accomplishment for me. No, I want to say
this like m the You know, there's been a bunch
of content that has been produced after this this win. Eliseo,
my son, who was on the show a couple months ago,
(01:10):
was quick to remind me, as adolescents will, that he
was right and I was wrong. Because if the listeners
will recall, after I went to London and saw the
worst game of the season. I was bereft, I was despondent.
I was mired in a kind of existential funk, thinking
that it was over. Alisa came on the show and uh,
(01:34):
and he basically was like, no, Bobby, you're wrong. And
so who's your favorite team.
Speaker 4 (01:42):
Like national team or both the Columbia national team, okay,
or the Arsenal.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
Thank you, thank you. It's the right answer.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
That's great, Aliso, You're gonna win the Premier League. Don't
listen to your dad.
Speaker 4 (01:55):
No, I'm confident.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
I love the confidence. He's confident.
Speaker 4 (01:59):
It's they have to play against Villa, our toughest opponents, Newcastle.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
Yeah, Newcastle's tough, but it's.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
Not Villas fourteenth Daniel.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
Yeah, but yeah okay. Edisale speaks with the confidence of
a young man whose heart has not been broken, and
so immediately after the win, in like sort of like
twinned with his happiness and his sort of feeling of
satisfaction as a fan. Was his feeling of satisfaction, happiness
(02:30):
that he was able to say to his father, I
was right and you were wrong, which was like almost
as I think pleasurable for him as winning was. It
was it was as great. It's been great, it's been beautiful.
I wasn't expecting to be so emotional about it, but
it really does feel like a like something, something really
(02:51):
lovely and special, and it doesn't happen every year. It
won't happen every year, and for that very reason, it's
it's something to really save her. Now. If the Knicks
end up winning, then this will be my greatest sports
year ever. And if Columbia wins the World Cup, then
I should just retire from sports because there's nothing more
that I could ever ask for in a single calendar year.
(03:14):
You know, you've had this experience down I never have, so.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
Yeah, it's pretty special though. I mean, it really does
feel like I remember when Liverpool won the Premier League
in twenty twenty. I just felt like a huge weight
had been lifted. I felt excited and happy, but I
also felt relieved because you know, all those times that
(03:38):
Manchester United fans for the last thirty years had sung
you'll never win the league instead of you'll never walk alone.
I just felt like, well, that should shut them up
for a bit, and it has.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
Yeah, it has. Yeah, so there's that feeling.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
But you've also got to feel a measure of joy
in the camaraderie of it, in the other Arsenal fans
you know, of who's getten through the last twenty two
years with you.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
Absolutely, I mean I got texts from friends in Lima,
in London, in New York, in Oakland, in Kenya, you know, like,
I heard from fans from all over and then and
I posted. I don't post much on Instagram, but I
posted like a couple of pictures and just sort of
like a little thing about how happy I was, and
got so many nice comments. And my friends who hate
(04:27):
Arsenal were dignified enough to not post like comments on
my post. And generally it's been it's been really lovely
to hear from friends.
Speaker 3 (04:36):
You know.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
When I was in London, I went with two clumbing
friends to the game, and I remember walking around and
we talked about it on the show walking around after
the game, and how everyone was just like cars would
pass by and people would hang out of the cars
and make fun of us, you know, calling us, you know,
cause we were wearing our like sad kits, you know,
our little our red jerseys, and we were walking around
London looking for a place to eat and just feeling
(04:58):
kind of sad, and people were like bottlers, bottlers, you know,
like everything. We were getting all this hate and we
couldn't do anything about You couldn't say anything because we
hadn't won anything, you know, and now we have and
you know, kind of feels different, you know.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
So, yeah, it's great, Well you're a champion. There is
a key here, though, which is then winning the Premier
League does not make you a better person. The Great
podcast host Michael Davies have pointed this out. Yeah, it
does not make you a better person, and if you're
not careful, it makes you a worse one.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
Yeah. Yeah, that's that's fair. That's fair. I haven't noticed
a steep decline in my like moral compass since last Tuesday,
but I'll keep an eye out. Yeah, well, thank you.
Got to look out for it, Sean, and I will
let you know. Yeah I did. I did appreciate the
(05:52):
text that you guys sent and the congratulations and it
felt nice. It felt nice. I got, you know, and
I started off by saying, how you know, like that
it felt like a huge accomplishment, as if I had
accomplished anything, but the way people were congratulating me and
genuinely happy for me. It felt almost as if I
had done something. And I guess what I did do
(06:14):
is watch you know, ninety percent of Arsenal games over
the last you know, two decades or a decade and
a half basically, and follow the team and know the players,
and follow the stories and cheer for them and hope
for them and think about the team. And I guess
that that helps. You know, when I've been in the stadium,
(06:35):
I've cheered my heart out and sang the songs and
you know, and I've been with friends. You know, I
remember seeing a guy when we beat Chelsea. We scored
the season, we scored a goal in like the last minute,
and there was a guy in the bar next to me.
There's an Arsenal bar here in Bouta, And at the
end of the game he was weeping and his girlfriend
(06:57):
was like like rubbing his face like this like it's
gonna it's going to be okay. And I and you know,
as much as it as silly as it is to
get invested in the fortunes of a team that plays
eight thousand kilometers from where you currently call home, you know,
(07:17):
try explaining that to that guy. You know, like, that's
what this means. And it was very special and I
also wondered about his home life. But it's a lovely thing.
It's a lovely thing. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
I mean, look, a football club is not the players
who play for it, right, because those players change. And
it's not the manager because that person changes. And it's
not the kit man because that person changes. A football
club is the people who love it, and of course
that also changes, but there's continuity there between the people
who love it, among the people who love it, and
that's what the football club is.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
So like you did win the Premier League.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
I don't think that, you know, I don't want to
minimize that accomplishment, because it is an accomplishment that you
are the football club in many ways, and so the
club being bigger than anyone within the institution is precisely
what makes football so magical to me. It's not the
person who owns it. It's not the players who play
(08:14):
on the pitch. It's all of us together.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
Yeah. Yeah, and still mckel won't answer my texts. It's strange.
I mean, there is that. There is that. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
One day, a glossy magazine will offer you a three
day adventure with mikel Arteta, that'll turn into a one hour,
really bad interview. But not today. Today, we're going to
answer some questions in our mail bag Sean, let's dive
right into it.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
Let's do it.
Speaker 3 (08:42):
Yeah, I mean this is I think you know, it's
our long awaited mail bag show. I will say with
both of you guys that some of our listeners will
remember we did do a mail bag show earlier. In
the away end it was just me and Daniel very
last minute when John was unable to join.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
But uh, when John was testifying in a federal case. Sean, well, yes, yes,
allegedly allegedly. Yeah, I just say, just to draw parallel
from what John just said, the away end is not
our show, it's your show. And you guys, right, this
is great that Charles and and and it really feels
special to be able to to to answer them, and
(09:23):
and it's also cool. We got emails from all over
the world, which is really exciting. So let's do it.
Speaker 3 (09:30):
So yeah, uh, you know, next week we'll be back
to our usual uh banter deep dive story.
Speaker 2 (09:37):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
But yeah, we've got so.
Speaker 3 (09:38):
Many good emails, so we're gonna we're gonna jump in,
all right, This one is from Alan. Alan says, Hello,
John and Daniel. As a football novice but fervent supporter
of Bergamo uh it leaves Adelanta b C. I have
been thoroughly enjoying the podcast. Just yesterday I gave the
(10:00):
salutorian speech my high school graduation, a speech that I
built around a quote from the show, though I admittedly
heard it first on a VLOGG Brothers episode. That quote
is of all the unimportant things, football is the most important,
by Pope John Paul. I. Like I said, though I'm
a novice, so I chose to talk about an unimportant
thing I am more of an expert on, and that's
(10:22):
being a lacrosse goalie.
Speaker 1 (10:24):
Hmm.
Speaker 3 (10:24):
This brings me to my question. I've been teased a
few times by my friends who are more familiar with
football than I am because I've said that my favorite
player is Marco Keannaseki, the superstar keeper for Atalanta. They
seem to say that no one considers goalies their favorite players,
and as a goalie, this hurts and I would love
to know what you think about this keeper slander. Great question,
(10:47):
yeah all, and nobody has keepers as their favorite player.
Speaker 1 (10:50):
That's weird. Oh I love David Rya.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
Yeah, I know you love David Rya, but not like
you love Soaka. Look, I'm going to say this.
Speaker 1 (10:59):
I think there's a strong case to be made that
David Raya is this season's most valuable player for Arsenal.
I think he's you know, the certainty and the assuredness
that he brings to the team is remarkable. The confidence
that the defenders have to play the way they do
knowing that he's behind them, The way he organizes the defense,
(11:20):
the way he dominates his box, the big saves that
he's made that are just you know, he's a catlike. Yeah,
but generally, you know, like you won't see a goalie,
uh in the in the discussion for ballond or you know,
the kind of the biggest prize for individual players. But
you know who was a goalie. Albert Camu was a goalie.
(11:44):
You know, like goalies are freaking crazy.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
Yeah, they're kind of they're a different stock. They god,
they they're they're fearless. They put their body in the
line in ways that other players don't. You see them
diving into the scrum to grab the ball. I mean,
you know, that's a dangerous games, that's arguably the most
dangerous position, and their bravery and fearlessness, you know, not
(12:09):
to call it recklessness, is something to be admired or
at the very least respected.
Speaker 1 (12:14):
I agree.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
I also think that some of the goalie slander, and
you're right alan that it is unfair, dates back to
the age when all goalies did was catch the ball
with their hands or try to stop the ball from
going in the net. Now, the position of goalie is
vastly more complicated because you have to be a brilliant
distributor of the ball, you have to have an understanding
of space, you have to be able to use all
(12:37):
four of your limbs with incredible dexterity. You know, in
many ways, it's become the most challenging position on the field,
and a lot of the you know, goalies are just
sort of brave people with quick reaction times. Way of
thinking about the position I think is outdated. And that's
(12:58):
true of lacross too, by the way, right, lacrosse goalie
is not just about how how many shots you stop.
It's also about how well you distribute the ball after
you stop a shot. So yeah, I think that with
that emergence of of of the role of goalkeeper. We
need to be more respectful of the position.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
Yeah. Yeah, so the goalkeeper is not just your last
line of defense but also your first line of attack, you.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
Know, right, And the best goalkeepers get assists.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (13:28):
Do you guys think that keepers feel the most pressure
of all of the positions on the team because they
are that last line of defense in some way, It's like.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
I do Sewan in this one unique way, which is
that if you if you, if you make a mistake
in the midfield or up front, it doesn't always lead
to a goal, but if you make a mistake as
a as a goalie, it leads to a goal nine
times out of ten. So that you're you're there's like
a bigger spotlight trained on your errors, and no one
(13:59):
is error free over the course of a game or
over the course of a season. But you know, midfielders
will lose a duel all the time, and you know,
then something happens and event you know, eventually a goal
get scored. And generally people don't point the finger at
someone who lost the ball in ninety seconds earlier, you know.
Speaker 2 (14:17):
Yeah, but for god, yeah, I think the cost of
mistakes is higher, and then also the benefit of doing
your job is lower, you know, like, very rarely are
saved celebrated like goals. Occasionally they are. I remember there
was one save the Jersey du Deck made in two
thousand and five during the Champions League Final against Schifchenko
(14:38):
that was the most amazing save I've ever seen in
my life, and that was celebrated a little bit like
a goal. But you've got to have a really special
save for it to be celebrated like an ordinary goal.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
Yeah, I mean, I think I think of the West
Ham game Matteos Fernandez is in on goal one on
one and and uh that I just stood stayed big,
stayed big for as long as possible and forced them
to go in near post and saved with a kicksabe
And that arguably one is you know, one is the title.
(15:08):
So yeah, I think I have in my head when
I think of the highlights of this season, there's five
or six game saving, point winning saves that the David
Reyah made that deserve as much credit as a as
a goal here or there. You know.
Speaker 3 (15:25):
All right, well you guys ready to move on to
the next Yeah, Yeah, let's do it.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
Let's do it.
Speaker 3 (15:31):
Hello, John and Daniel, I'm not a big sports fan,
but I enjoy your perspectives on soccer, especially the personal
or historical stories. I have a question, is there such
a thing as a compelling pre or postgame interview? Whenever
I catch an interview on the radio, it seems to
me that coaches and players use the same old, vague
(15:52):
and diplomatic phrases. But I'm also at a loss as
to what they're supposed to say that's more interesting than
we gave it, are all or our opponent proved to
be the better team. I'm looking forward to following the
Men's World Cup exclusively through the lens of your podcast.
Speaker 1 (16:07):
Cheers. Moretz love this question. I love this question. Yeah,
don what do you want from a postgame interview?
Speaker 2 (16:15):
Occasionally you'll see a postgame interview that is really honest
and it's always shocking, or when somebody's able to penetrate
the morass of sport related cliche and find a way
to express something that's fresh or original or exciting. But
it's very occasional. The only thing I'll say is that
(16:36):
there is something worse than the bland, boring press conference,
which is Mohammed Salah going to the press every time
Mohammed Sala like went out into the press area.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
In his entire.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
Liverpool career, it was to deliver an absolute bomb. That
was like, I have no confidence in the manager or
my teammates are not playing with the fire that I
would appreciate. Like, it was always to deliver an attack.
Speaker 1 (17:06):
So yeah, I'd rather you be bland than that. I
was thinking about this question a lot, actually, and I
remembered there was a guy at NBA's you know, leaving
the world of football for a moment. There was an
NBA sideline report named Craig Sager who was known for
wearing these wild suits, right yeah, And in the playoffs,
(17:31):
I can remember what season it was, like, first seed
was LA and last seed was the Timberwolves, and the
Timberwolves won the game one surprised everybody, and Kevin Garnett
gave a you know, immediately after the whistle gave us
gave an interview to Craig Sager, and of course everyone
had counted out the t Wolves, and Garnett says to
(17:53):
Craig Sager, he goes like, we're like you in that suit.
We don't care what people say. And I just remember thinking, man,
I love KG I love him. Yeah, you know. Also,
I think these guys are it's so rare. Yeah. Have
you seen John or Sean? Have you seen interviews with
(18:17):
Cole Palmer? Yes, man, I don't think so.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
I feel bad watching them. I feel guilty, like I
feel like I'm watching footballer.
Speaker 1 (18:28):
Yeah, it's uncomfortable. It's uncomfortable. I don't know what to
say about it. But if anyone here is listening, I
don't want to use any adjectives or make any long
distance diagnoses. But uh, man, wow.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
He does seem disengaged with the world of the press,
is what I would say about it.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
Yeah, it seems like the media training didn't take.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
Yeah, it's possible he's disengaged in a larger way, like with.
Speaker 1 (18:59):
It reality.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
Yeah, I think with Cole Palmer, I do wonder. I
know this, this person has an interior life that is
as complex and rich as my own. But he doesn't
seem to want to share with the media.
Speaker 1 (19:15):
That's for sure. Yes, and that's possibly a generous interpretation.
I'm not going to say anymore because I don't want
to slander someone that I've never met, who I'm sure
is a nice person despite playing for Chelsea. But yeah,
I think I think more. It's two things. I think
you should also watch the games, not just listen to
our pod. And I think you just have to learn
(19:36):
to live with bland postgame interviews, because that's how elite
athletes now are trained to engage with the media.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
You know, well, I have to say I've had a
lot of media training, and the main thing media training
attempts to do is make it so that you don't
end your career by saying something stupid. And when the
prospect of like ending your career by saying something stupid
is sitting on one of your shoulders, the other shoulder
(20:08):
is like, be bland, Be bland at all costs.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
Right, Wow, I haven't had any media training. You never
had media training? No, oh, man, I've had.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
I've had a lot of it. Really really beat the
individuality out of me.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
But and yet your career continues. So here you are, and.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
Yet like, if you watch me in an interview, you'll
be like, now, there's a guy who is looking to
deflect every question that he's asked and return it to
the issue of at hand, which is that His new novel,
Hollywood Ending, comes out on September twenty second, is available
for pre order.
Speaker 1 (20:46):
Now there's a guy who has two kids to put
through college. Yeah, exactly, all right.
Speaker 3 (20:54):
I will say I've been on the other really quick.
I've been on the other side of it, where I've
been the inner viewer, not on camera, but where I've
interviewed people after a sporting event and tried to get
those answers. And there is nothing worse than talking to
an athlete or whomever you're talking to who is either
giving you one word answers or very bland answers, and
(21:15):
it will make a two minute interview feel like an
eternity and you're just like ready to be done with
it as quickly as possible. But you know, in your
back of your mind, you're like, I have to if
it's live or not live, I'm going to have to
edit this later, so I need to get some kind
of good answers out of this person, hopefully to use
(21:36):
for whatever I'm going to be editing.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
So I don't know.
Speaker 3 (21:40):
I'm always thankful. I was always thankful for people that
had a really good answer to certain questions. And maybe
the bland answers just make the more unconventional answers all
the more enjoyable when they do have.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
That's more you'll shine through, sure, true, like watching a
boring game of football makes football richer and more exciting
when it's good. Yeah, all right, we're going to take
a break and we'll be back with more of your
questions shortly.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
All right, we're back on your way in Sean. What
do we got? All right?
Speaker 3 (22:22):
Dear Daniel and John, Is there a particular way that
you feel sport has shaped your perspectives, helped in your
career or in your personal life? Perhaps his parents Love
from London, North London Forever Jess, Hmmm, Yes, it's a
deep one.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
Yeah. There was a time when my boys were younger
when I kept in my pocket red cards and yellow cards, uh,
and and they would do something annoying and I would
just you know, put up with the yellow card. And
this really worked, you know, and like you know, you
(23:00):
didn't want to get a double yellow at a playdate,
you know, And this was actually a really good parenting technique.
And I think in my career, I think I spoke
about this on the way and but I've gotten to
play soccer in some pretty crazy places and it's always
(23:20):
helped me make friends when I've moved to new places,
new towns, or make friends in the context of reporting,
and have sort of a baseline set of shared knowledge
that I can draw upon with almost anybody that I
that I meet around the world. So that's been super helpful.
Speaker 2 (23:39):
What about you, John, Yeah, I would say that part
of it for sure is true for me as well,
that you know, anywhere I travel, football is a common
language and we can talk about that. You know, it's
not universal. Of course, not everybody's a football fan, but
a lot of people are, and that's a good point
of connection, shared side of interest. The other thing I
(24:02):
would say, though, is something else we've talked about a
lot on the pod, which is that soccer players at
a really elite level have an unbelievable amount of self belief.
They really think that they can do things that are
exceptional and hard. And that's true not only for you know,
players for Arsenal who just lifted the Premier League trophy.
(24:23):
It's also true for players in the third and fourth
divisions of English football. They have to believe that they
are really, really good and that they are capable of
extraordinary things, and that when they stick together they can,
for instance, if they get an FA Cup tie against Liverpool,
that they can beat Liverpool. They have to believe that.
(24:44):
And I've learned in my career that that ability to
tell yourself that you belong and you are good is
really useful. Y'all knew me when I was fifteen years old.
I am not somebody who has a lot of inborn
(25:04):
built in confidence. I didn't grow up with a ton
of confidence. I grew up nerdy and bullied and uncomfortable.
And I learned, partly from watching sports, that you just
have to believe in yourself. It's really really important no
matter what you do in life.
Speaker 1 (25:24):
Absolutely love that. Thank you, Jess. That was a great question.
North London Forever. Okay, what's next, Jean.
Speaker 3 (25:32):
Hello, John and Daniel. In your episode with Simon Cooper,
it was mentioned that Team USA would be playing quote
practical soccer while other countries will play quote beautiful soccer
in the upcoming World Cup. I do not know what
this means. I've tried to understand the difference between MLS
and Premier League play styles, but I just do not
(25:52):
know what to look for between these leagues regardless. Does
quote beautiful football mean better football or is considered a
specific style of play. There's any insight either of you
would be able to provide, I would appreciate it. Brand
And he's referencing, you know, Simon Cooper. We had the
great Simon Cooper, author of the most recent book World
(26:13):
Cup Fever, on a previous episode of The Away End.
You guys had a great conversation with him. If you
haven't listened to that episode, go check that one out
as well.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
Yeah, I think this is a really great question. You
want to go Tom, sure. I think part of it
is how you set up to play. You know, so
you set up one way usually to play when you
have the ball, in one way when you don't have
the ball, and a lot of teams that are playing
sort of practical football that don't have the talent level
(26:44):
of their opponents are going to set up with what
sometimes called a low block. They're going to set up
in a really defensive position and try to kind of
withstand pressure. And then when they have the ball, which
they know will be for a minority of the game,
they you know, organize themselves differently or they try to
focus on counterattacking, so getting the ball back and then
(27:05):
moving very very quickly up the field. And trying to
make something happen that way. That way of playing football
is generally considered, although perhaps unfairly, less beautiful, less moving,
less like visually exciting and interesting and intricate than you know,
like the way Brazil or the Netherlands play football, where
(27:27):
everybody is touching the ball all the time, and you know,
the sort of total football of the Dutch from the
nineteen seventies where you know, your your your defenders can
become attackers and your attackers can become defenders, and everybody
is moving in a very flowing, coordinated, open way.
Speaker 1 (27:48):
Is that fair to say, Daniel, Or have I missed something? Yeah? No,
I think that's that's exactly right. I think you know,
this season Arsenal one. I'm sorry I keep referencing this
thing that happened because it's prettympore to me. But you know,
a lot of the critique I think was fairly lobbed
at Arsenal was that it wasn't a particularly beautiful game
to watch. They scored a lot of goals from corner kicks,
(28:09):
they from set pieces. Uh, pretty turgid offensively and just
impenetrable defensively. Uh, you know, Titanic defenders. So I think,
you know, next weekend, uh Arsenal's playing PSG in the
Champions League Final. PSG is a team that has played
much less football than Arsenal because of the way the
(28:31):
league League league is set up, and they save their best,
very best players to for for for Europe, and they
play an incredible attacking I mean, they're just irresistible to watch,
and it's really gonna be a clash of styles. And
I would say to Brandt, you know, watch that game,
or even just watch the highlights of you know, uh
(28:52):
Arsenal Atletico and then watched the highlights of uh PSG
Byron of the first leg of either of those games.
Both that were very entertaining games in their own way,
but for the untrained eye, you know, the PSD Byron
game was box office. I mean that was incredible. You know,
it had everything. It was just attacking, attacking, attacking, two
(29:14):
teams of incredible attacking talent who seemed not that interested
in playing defense, just seeing who could you know, it
was like a basketball game, who can who can score more?
The Arsenal game was attritional, was very tactical, both teams
sort of playing within themselves, and you know ended up
(29:35):
in a draw one one. It's totally different and you
could you know, that's probably the starkest difference. And then
you'll see a huge difference on Saturday in the Champions
League Final because Arsenal's not going to go out there
to try to play expansive, free flowing you know, front
to back and in like six intricate one touch passes
through the midfield of PSD. It would be it would
(29:57):
be silly to do that. What they're going to do
is try to narrow the game and hit them on
the counter or hit them on a set piece, you know,
and that's what's gonna happen, because it just doesn't make sense,
you know. I think both are great once you know,
I understand why Arsenal got so much criticism this season
for playing that way. I also think that if you
look at you know, there's reasons why you end up
(30:19):
playing that way. Injuries, you know, playing against the low
block all the time forces you to try different things,
including set pieces, to try to you know, break the
dead luck. I don't know's it's I find it all
kind of fun. I've definitely seen boring games in my life,
but a really kind of Cagy tactical game can be
fun to watch as well.
Speaker 2 (30:37):
Yeah, And as for the difference between MLS and the
Premier League, I think that you're right to not be
able to see a visual difference.
Speaker 1 (30:44):
Like they both cross the ball really well.
Speaker 2 (30:49):
I mean they're probably a little more somewhat more crosses
into the box in MLS, but like they both cross
the ball well, they both switch fields of play well.
MLS is a little slower pace of it is a
little slower, and you can you can tell that difference.
The players are more likely to be walking, which is
why it's also a great league if you're thirty eight
year old li at all MESSI but I think they're
(31:13):
you know, technically very good and the level of you know,
like that basic technical stuff is pretty high. Where you
will really see the difference is if you come watch
an AFC Wimbledon game with me, then you'll be like, oh,
I get it. Like these are like you know, these
are long passes where lots of people are heading it
(31:33):
and then they're heading it and then they're heading it
and nobody really has the ball forty minutes of the
ninety minutes, and there you can see the difference.
Speaker 1 (31:42):
I want to say one more thing about this In Spanish,
In Spanish announcers, you know, proven announcers, I'll say this, Well,
when someone kicks the ball high, they'll say dividel ballogne.
You know, like when someone just clears the ball away,
they're like, he just divided the ball. And it's basically like,
you know, he didn't say like he cleared it, he spang,
did he you know, defensive clear? No, it's like divided ballone,
(32:03):
meaning he got the ball away and now we don't
know who's going to get it. And there's it's a
bit of a pejorative because like you should be you know,
even defensively building right, And I think that that, you know,
that's one of the things that if you have a
high level of technical play, then you're more likely to
be able to do that successfully.
Speaker 2 (32:20):
But you have to have the quality to build, and
a lot of exacts don't have the quality to build.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
I have a good friend, my friend Luke Dempsey, who
told me that when he was growing up at England
he's a little bit older than us, you put the
worst players in the midfield because basically you would kick it,
you know, as hard as you could as high as
you could over the midfield. It was equivalent of being
like playing softball as a kid and you suck, so
they put you in the outfield. So the midfield players
(32:46):
barely ever touched the ball. You go straight from defense
to attack, and often with the you know ballon DVD deal,
you know, the ball was divided between two teams and
then it would just bounce around until someone would get
a shove. You know. That's obviously changed, you know, tremendously,
and now you put your best players in the midfield,
(33:06):
your most technical players, your players who were most assured
or two footed, you know, and put them in the
field because they can distribute and they can do things
that you otherwise would be able to do.
Speaker 3 (33:16):
All right, let's go to our next question. Hi, Daniel,
John and Sean. My question is specifically for Daniel, can
you please explain to me the allure of the North
London Derby. I've been following soccer for a long time,
but as an American, it took me a while to
choose a European team to support. However, a few years ago,
after many years of waffling, I made the highly dubious
(33:39):
decision to support Tottenham in part having been romance by
the beautiful play and gleeful smile of the now departed
sun hung men. Now a few years in, I still
don't get the allure of the North London Derby. That is,
I don't get why I'm supposed to dislike Arsenal. As
a longtime Arsenal supporter yourself, I'd be interested. I'd be
interested to hear any insight into this matter. You may
(34:02):
have thanks and keep up the great work, Evan god
I love this question, John, I love this question. Okay,
So there's there are historical reasons, and there's also the
most important reason, which is like, the reason you buy
into rivalry is because it's part of belonging, you know.
And I think as a as a Spurs fan, Evan,
(34:23):
you should hate Arsenal because that's part of the kind
of contract, you know, that's part of what you signed
on for. And so the historical reasons, I'll just jump
into these, because Arsenal is a team that was originally
formed in South London fifteen workers at this munitions factory
that was called Woolwich, and that club was founded in
(34:44):
the late eighteen hundreds, originally called Dial Square, then Royal
Arsenal and Woolwich Arsenal eventually just Arsenal.
Speaker 1 (34:51):
In nineteen thirteen, Arsenal moved from South London to Highbury
and this was just four miles down the road from
Whitehart Lane, which was Tottenham Stadium, and that's where the
beef begins. They played before, but it wasn't a Darby,
it wasn't a rivalry because they were just two teams
from London, from different parts of London. When Arsenal moved
in and encroached upon Tottenham's territory, that's when the rivalry began,
(35:18):
and it's basically just a neighborhood beef, like who's the
king of North London is the thing. The rivalry escalated
a few years later, and this is I think Tottenham
fans and Tottenham historians have a legitimate beef here because
the English top flight expanded to twenty two teams and
Tottenham was one of the teams that had been relegated.
So one of the options was just to keep the
(35:39):
teams that have been relegated and then add a few more.
But the Powers would be skipped over Tottenham and grabbed
Arsenal from the league below. They'd finished like sixth in
the league below and brought them up to expand the league.
And you know what, that's super unfair and that sort
of cemented sort of the historical reasons why Tottenham and
(36:00):
Arsenal do not get along. But you know, I mean,
Darby's are just rivalries just mean more. And so you
can have a shit season if you're an Everton fan,
if you have a bad season, but you beat Liverpool,
you know, and if you do the unthinkable, which is
like be Liverpool at Anfield, that's a great season. That's
(36:20):
that's one of the moments that you have. And winning
at white Hart Lane or winning at Tottenham Stadium is
better than winning at Brighton. You know. It's just it's
just more pleasurable, you know. And I would just encourage you, Evan,
just to lean into it, man, lean into it and
(36:44):
enjoy it. One day you're gonna beat us and it's
going to be great. Could happen next season? Yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:48):
I think about this in the context of whether it's
possible to create an US that doesn't also create a them.
You know, to what extent can we create strong communities
that don't have others? And I think it's really hard.
It's a lot easier to make that US affairs of them,
(37:08):
and this is a relatively healthy way to do it,
as long as you remember that it's just a construct
and it's not real, and like you know, Tottenham fans
are not like inherently better or worse than Arsenal fans.
It's just, uh, it's just a way of strengthening the
sense of us.
Speaker 1 (37:25):
Yeah. Yeah, and I use I use hate in air quotes,
you know, like the rival recourse. I know is it's
it's all it's all fun and games, and it's not.
It's not and nor should it be anything more than that,
you know, uh and yeah, and there's it's really hard
sometimes because there's so much furvor and emotion around these games,
(37:45):
and you see it all over the world where fandom
becomes something else that it shouldn't be. You know, that
is not it's not about belonging. It's about you know,
it's about violence and anger and and rancor. And that
isn't any fun for anybody. So don't lean into that, evan,
(38:07):
lean into the fun parts of a rivalry and celebrate
your team and congratulations for staying up. All right, So
let's take a quick break, guys, and we'll come back
with a few more questions and then a story from
a listener.
Speaker 2 (38:36):
All right, we're back on the away and Sean, what's
our next question?
Speaker 3 (38:39):
Hello, John and Daniel. In my life, I have deeply
loved two football teams, the US women's national team and Liverpool.
They have both given me so much over the years,
from epic highs to devastating lows and some of the
best people in the world. But as happens with the
all professionals sports teams, they change over time. Players retire
(39:00):
or get traded, managers rotate through and the team that
you fell in love with doesn't really exist anymore. To me,
this feeling is like a prolonged, excruciating breakup that you
have no control over it, and I can't seem to
figure out how to get over it. As season team
supporters who have seen many, many versions of the teams
you love, do you get this feeling too, and if so, how.
Speaker 1 (39:22):
Do you deal with it? Jamie?
Speaker 2 (39:25):
I am devastated when a player I really love leaves
the football club, like I remember when Roberto Fromino left Liverpool.
It was like a not like a close family member
had abandoned me, but like a first cousin or something
was like, I don't want you in my life anymore.
Speaker 1 (39:43):
I want to go to Saudi.
Speaker 2 (39:44):
Arabia now, and I was really actively sad, which I
know is ludicrous. Roberta Formo doesn't think about me, and
nor should he when he's making his decisions about his
footballing career. But I guess the benefit of having been
a long term fan is that you see all those
people come back. You know, you see that. You just
(40:06):
know that Roberta Fermino is going to return to anfield
twenty years from now, and he's going to hear those
same songs that we sung for him when he was
a player, and he's gonna cry, and he's gonna have
his kids with him, and his kids are going to
be twenty years old and playing for Barcelona's youth team
or something. You just you're able to zoom out and
see that in the context of this being part of
(40:27):
Liverpool or the US women's national team will always have
been an important part of these people's lives, and so
they aren't really all the way gone just because they've
they've moved on or retired.
Speaker 1 (40:40):
Yeah. Absolutely, that's a great answer. I also think that
the the trajectories of teams and the fallow periods are
what make the Swede moments all the all the sweeters.
So you see a player go and your heartbroken, especially
when players go to a bigger club or for more
(41:02):
money or for the chances to win the trophies that
your particular club can't offer at the moment. And then
you know, some kid from the academy shows up and
embodies the values of the club or the values that
you associate with your club, and loves the shirt and
just loves playing for the team and brings new energy,
(41:25):
and then you fall in love all over again. And
that's part of the process of loving a team and
supporting a team. And with the national team it's the same,
you know. You know there are good there are players
that we have not really heard of yet who in
six weeks time will be household names across the world
(41:47):
who are going to make their mark on this tournament
and do beautiful, amazing things for their national teams and
become heroes, you know, And that's a really exciting thing
to not yet know who those players are.
Speaker 3 (42:00):
Can I just note that when Jamie said, as seasoned
team supporters who have seen many, many versions of the
teams you love. I felt that I felt that a
little bit. It do a little bit like an attack.
They could have just said one mini would have sufficed,
but yeah, two many.
Speaker 1 (42:20):
Yeah. I was asked to when I was playing in
New York a few years ago. I was asked to
join a team and I was like, guys, I'm pretty old,
and he's like, yeah, but the club has lots of
different age levels, and the age level that I was
asked to play in was the age level was Legends.
It was like deceased, you know. I was like, oh wow,
(42:46):
And then I want to play with Legends and I couldn't.
I couldn't hang. They were in such good shape. These
were all like fifty five year old guys, who could,
you know, run for days. I was like, nah, I
can't do it. I can't do it anyway, all right.
Speaker 3 (43:00):
Next question, Hello Daniel and John. What do you think
of the straight red card rumored to be a new
rule in this Men's World Cup for any player who
covers his mouth during a dispute with an opposing player.
It feels kind of bonkers, but maybe it's grounded in
something that I'm not getting with Giant appreciation for all
(43:20):
you were doing in your pod. Liz from Washington State, Liz,
there is an unfortunate reason that this has to be
a rule, And the reason, I'm sorry is that people
around the world are racist. And there have been multiple
incidents of people players covering their mouths and then saying
(43:44):
something racist, and then a player reporting it and not
either not being believed or being dismissed or being booed
by opposing fans and some teams who are also racist,
and the whole thing is ann fortunate, just reality of
the world that we live in. I wonder how closely
(44:07):
this rule is going to be enforced. I think so
many yeah, so many players just have the habit of
doing this because you don't want the cameras to pick
up if you're having a conversation about tactics or who's
going to take the free kick or whatever. And it's
just becomes such a habit that some player is going
to accidentally cover their mouth not say something racist, you know,
(44:30):
but just to have a conversation with another player on
the pitch, and they might get a red card.
Speaker 1 (44:37):
And I'm worried about that. But there is a reason,
and that's the reason there is a good reason.
Speaker 2 (44:42):
I'm worried that it will be enforced haphazardly, or that
it'll be somebody who accidentally covers their mouth while saying
something totally innocuous and gets a red card, and that's
such a huge shift in the overall vibe of a
game that it would be a catastrophic mistake player to make.
And so I just I worry about that. But I
(45:02):
absolutely understand that you know, this is this has been
a problem over and over and over again, and every
time the offending player says, well, I didn't say anything,
and they're they always set it behind their hand so
that you can't read their lips or and the referee
might not hear it, and so you know.
Speaker 1 (45:21):
It's it.
Speaker 2 (45:23):
It comes from an important place. We'll see how it's
actually implemented.
Speaker 3 (45:29):
Yeah, absolutely, it's going to be curious. It's going to
be curious.
Speaker 1 (45:33):
And I'm reminded of something in Simon Cooper's book where
he talks about the way referees for World Cups are chosen,
and it's not necessarily because they're the best referees, you know,
because FIFA and all the federations that are beneath FIFA
the national organizations sort of suffer from the same level
(45:54):
of corruption. You're not going to necessarily get the greatest
refs around. You're just going to get someone who is
you know, plucked from their national league and thrown into
the mixer, and they either don't have the training, they
might not have the expertise, or they might not have
the cohonis to make you know, the right calls at
(46:17):
the right moments. So adding this kind of rule, although
I support anything that we can do to sort of
stamp out racism in the game and in the world.
You know, let's see how it works. It could really backfire,
but it remains to be seen. But that is the reason. Liz,
all right, Sean, what have we got? All Right?
Speaker 3 (46:39):
We have a pretty epic story here from listener William.
You know, as a way and listeners know, you know,
we usually end the podcast with a story from one
of you guys, but when we got this email from William,
we felt like it deserved to end today's episod. So yeah,
(47:02):
we will dive in here to his story. William. It's
a great story. Dear John and Daniel. I was sixteen,
the brain of the Vuvazela dominated the halls of my
Long Island High School, and all of my friends and
I followed along with the games as best as we could.
I grew more and more excited as the tournament progressed.
That year, the school's foreign language class trip was to
(47:25):
Spain and we would be there during the semi final
and final matches. Fast forward to the trip and twenty
five high schoolers are going from city to city in
Spain with some teachers as chaperones. We watched the semifinal
match while we're there, and we celebrate with the country
that they're going to the final. The whole country was electric.
I had never felt anything like it in the United States,
(47:46):
and to this day, I still have not. We were
going to watch Spain play for the World Cup while
actually in Spain. It was going to be amazing. My
friends and I immediately went to our teachers, who we
were on great terms with, and tried to figure out
where we would be watching the final. We thought that
this was a dream come true for us and them.
(48:06):
What better cultural immersion for a foreign language class than this.
Speaker 1 (48:11):
Well, as it.
Speaker 3 (48:12):
Turned out, our itinerary was already set for that time.
Our teachers had months beforehand scheduled a party cruise for
all of us. It was meant to be a river
cruise in Sevilla, where we'd get the chance to hang
out with other people our age. I had never in
my life argued to get out of a party more
than I did for us to skip that cruise. My
(48:36):
friends and I desperately tried to explain that there was
no way that anyone would be on that boat during
the final I honestly wasn't even sure it would be
manned with a crew.
Speaker 1 (48:48):
In the way.
Speaker 3 (48:48):
Only Americans who don't understand that football is the world's
sport could be. My teachers confidently asserted that plenty of
people would be there, regardless of the game listeners they were.
The total population of this river cruise turned out to
be twenty five American high schoolers, three American high school teachers,
(49:13):
one young American couple, two very upset bartenders. It was
a dry cruise, and presumably the captain of this fine vessel.
My friends and I spent the entirety of the cruise
with the bartenders huddled around a radio, desperately trying to
follow along with the game. We floated along the river
(49:37):
seeing watch parties at beautiful luxury riverside homes go by.
At one point, the captain slowed down as much as
possible because one of these parties was projecting the game
onto the side of a building. Those few minutes were
the only part of the final that I ever got
(49:58):
to watch. Then, of course, Spain won in the country erupted.
If I thought the tournament was electric, this was something else.
Speaker 1 (50:08):
Entirely.
Speaker 3 (50:10):
We watched from our hotel rooms that night, as the
partying never stopped on the streets below. Our tour guide
and bus driver told us how they celebrated all night
running through the fountains in the city. Since then, all
I've wanted was for the US to experience that kind
of energy. The love and excitement that can come from
the sport is something I've truly never seen replicated elsewhere.
(50:33):
I hope fervently that hosting this World Cup would do it,
but I have to say I am not confident that
it will. Maybe one day.
Speaker 5 (50:41):
Best William, amazing, amazing, that's so such a great way
to watch slash.
Speaker 1 (50:51):
Listen to the final. Oh god, this is the absence
of it, just like the longing. You know you can
see from the boat, but you're just like that far
offshore and you can't leave, and you're a kid too,
you know. And the bartenders with the dry cruise, Oh god,
those poor guys. It's a fundamental and he's right. I
(51:14):
feel bad for the teachers, but he's right to call
him out because it's a fundamental misunderstanding of how this
stuff works, you know. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (51:24):
I remember when the US women's national team won the
World Cup back in nineteen ninety six, I think maybe
ninety eight. I can't remember for sure, but in the
nineties I was working at a ice cream shop outside
of Moose Pass, Alaska, and when the final penalty kick
(51:47):
went in and Brandy Chastain ripped off her shirt to celebrate,
I went outside and I heard one horn honking, and
then after a long moment of silence, I heard fuck yeah, America.
And that was as close as I've ever come to that, William,
That's as close as I've ever come.
Speaker 1 (52:04):
To that feeling. Wow. Yeah, I gotta say I'm very
excited to watch the World Cup mostly from Boruta, mostly
here in Columbia, because everyone's gonna be watching the World Cup,
and it is different. It is different. I think the
United States is so big and so vast and contain
so many multitudes. There's in any monoculture anymore, and certainly
(52:24):
none that embraces football and puts it at its very center,
as often happens in other parts of the world. So yeah,
it's a different experience. It's gonna be a different experience.
I don't think we'll have that level. But maybe in
New York, maybe in Philly, maybe in the cities that
are hosting World Cup games, in Miami, in Atlanta. You know,
(52:47):
you know, I I think if you just you need
to seek out those places where people are going to
watch the games. I remember I can remember which World
Cup it was. It must have been twenty ten, watching
the game in in a big plaza in front of
City Hall in San Francisco, packed with people. It was
a USA England game. Do you remember the game where
(53:09):
Rob Green? Rob Green let the ball between his legs. Yeah, yeah,
we watched that. Yah, yeah, yeah, that was rough. I
watched that in a bar with some buddies. That was
a fun game. It was a fun game. So, William,
I think you are obviously now an adult who can
make your own decisions abou where to watch the games
and I would just do everything possible to watch them
(53:30):
with friends and family or with people who have kind of,
you know, emotional stake in the outcome of the games,
you know, with different communities of folks, and that's going
to be great. Just it's gonna be a great experience.
I loved your story, William, Thank you so much for
sharing that with us.
Speaker 2 (53:47):
Yeah, and thanks to everybody who writes in at away
ndpod at gmail dot com. We love reading your emails.
We'll be sure to read more of them on the
air in the future. In the meantime, thank you to
Daniel and Sean and Kurt.
Speaker 1 (53:59):
Are edited and producers for.
Speaker 2 (54:02):
All their work.
Speaker 1 (54:03):
And we'll see you next week. See you guys, MHM.
Welcome to the Way, and I Danielle Alarcon.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
I'm John Green and today we're joined by the invisible
puppet master behind our entire operation, our producer Sean Titone.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
Hi.
Speaker 3 (00:16):
Sean, Hey, John, Hey Daniel.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
Good to see you guys, as always good to see
you man.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
So we're waiting on a mail bag show and I
think that's very important, and that's why we've got Sean today.
He's going to ask us questions and help us through
the mail bag. Thank you for all your questions at
awayndpod at gmail dot com. But today we need to
do something first, which is congratulate our friend Daniel on
(00:43):
his big winning of the Premier League.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
It's huge. It's huge for me personally. It's also I
want to take full I want it all by myself.
Is an accomplishment for me. No, I want to say
this like m the You know, there's been a bunch
of content that has been produced after this this win. Eliseo,
my son, who was on the show a couple months ago,
(01:10):
was quick to remind me, as adolescents will, that he
was right and I was wrong. Because if the listeners
will recall, after I went to London and saw the
worst game of the season. I was bereft, I was despondent.
I was mired in a kind of existential funk, thinking
that it was over. Alisa came on the show and uh,
(01:34):
and he basically was like, no, Bobby, you're wrong. And
so who's your favorite team.
Speaker 4 (01:42):
Like national team or both the Columbia national team, okay,
or the Arsenal.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
Thank you, thank you. It's the right answer.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
That's great, Aliso, You're gonna win the Premier League. Don't
listen to your dad.
Speaker 4 (01:55):
No, I'm confident.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
I love the confidence. He's confident.
Speaker 4 (01:59):
It's they have to play against Villa, our toughest opponents, Newcastle.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
Yeah, Newcastle's tough, but it's.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
Not Villas fourteenth Daniel.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
Yeah, but yeah okay. Edisale speaks with the confidence of
a young man whose heart has not been broken, and
so immediately after the win, in like sort of like
twinned with his happiness and his sort of feeling of
satisfaction as a fan. Was his feeling of satisfaction, happiness
(02:30):
that he was able to say to his father, I
was right and you were wrong, which was like almost
as I think pleasurable for him as winning was. It
was it was as great. It's been great, it's been beautiful.
I wasn't expecting to be so emotional about it, but
it really does feel like a like something, something really
(02:51):
lovely and special, and it doesn't happen every year. It
won't happen every year, and for that very reason, it's
it's something to really save her. Now. If the Knicks
end up winning, then this will be my greatest sports
year ever. And if Columbia wins the World Cup, then
I should just retire from sports because there's nothing more
that I could ever ask for in a single calendar year.
(03:14):
You know, you've had this experience down I never have, so.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
Yeah, it's pretty special though. I mean, it really does
feel like I remember when Liverpool won the Premier League
in twenty twenty. I just felt like a huge weight
had been lifted. I felt excited and happy, but I
also felt relieved because you know, all those times that
(03:38):
Manchester United fans for the last thirty years had sung
you'll never win the league instead of you'll never walk alone.
I just felt like, well, that should shut them up
for a bit, and it has.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
Yeah, it has. Yeah, so there's that feeling.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
But you've also got to feel a measure of joy
in the camaraderie of it, in the other Arsenal fans
you know, of who's getten through the last twenty two
years with you.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
Absolutely, I mean I got texts from friends in Lima,
in London, in New York, in Oakland, in Kenya, you know, like,
I heard from fans from all over and then and
I posted. I don't post much on Instagram, but I
posted like a couple of pictures and just sort of
like a little thing about how happy I was, and
got so many nice comments. And my friends who hate
(04:27):
Arsenal were dignified enough to not post like comments on
my post. And generally it's been it's been really lovely
to hear from friends.
Speaker 3 (04:36):
You know.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
When I was in London, I went with two clumbing
friends to the game, and I remember walking around and
we talked about it on the show walking around after
the game, and how everyone was just like cars would
pass by and people would hang out of the cars
and make fun of us, you know, calling us, you know,
cause we were wearing our like sad kits, you know,
our little our red jerseys, and we were walking around
London looking for a place to eat and just feeling
(04:58):
kind of sad, and people were like bottlers, bottlers, you know,
like everything. We were getting all this hate and we
couldn't do anything about You couldn't say anything because we
hadn't won anything, you know, and now we have and
you know, kind of feels different, you know.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
So, yeah, it's great, Well you're a champion. There is
a key here, though, which is then winning the Premier
League does not make you a better person. The Great
podcast host Michael Davies have pointed this out. Yeah, it
does not make you a better person, and if you're
not careful, it makes you a worse one.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
Yeah. Yeah, that's that's fair. That's fair. I haven't noticed
a steep decline in my like moral compass since last Tuesday,
but I'll keep an eye out. Yeah, well, thank you.
Got to look out for it, Sean, and I will
let you know. Yeah I did. I did appreciate the
(05:52):
text that you guys sent and the congratulations and it
felt nice. It felt nice. I got, you know, and
I started off by saying, how you know, like that
it felt like a huge accomplishment, as if I had
accomplished anything, but the way people were congratulating me and
genuinely happy for me. It felt almost as if I
had done something. And I guess what I did do
(06:14):
is watch you know, ninety percent of Arsenal games over
the last you know, two decades or a decade and
a half basically, and follow the team and know the players,
and follow the stories and cheer for them and hope
for them and think about the team. And I guess
that that helps. You know, when I've been in the stadium,
(06:35):
I've cheered my heart out and sang the songs and
you know, and I've been with friends. You know, I
remember seeing a guy when we beat Chelsea. We scored
the season, we scored a goal in like the last minute,
and there was a guy in the bar next to me.
There's an Arsenal bar here in Bouta, And at the
end of the game he was weeping and his girlfriend
(06:57):
was like like rubbing his face like this like it's
gonna it's going to be okay. And I and you know,
as much as it as silly as it is to
get invested in the fortunes of a team that plays
eight thousand kilometers from where you currently call home, you know,
(07:17):
try explaining that to that guy. You know, like, that's
what this means. And it was very special and I
also wondered about his home life. But it's a lovely thing.
It's a lovely thing. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
I mean, look, a football club is not the players
who play for it, right, because those players change. And
it's not the manager because that person changes. And it's
not the kit man because that person changes. A football
club is the people who love it, and of course
that also changes, but there's continuity there between the people
who love it, among the people who love it, and
that's what the football club is.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
So like you did win the Premier League.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
I don't think that, you know, I don't want to
minimize that accomplishment, because it is an accomplishment that you
are the football club in many ways, and so the
club being bigger than anyone within the institution is precisely
what makes football so magical to me. It's not the
person who owns it. It's not the players who play
(08:14):
on the pitch. It's all of us together.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
Yeah. Yeah, and still mckel won't answer my texts. It's strange.
I mean, there is that. There is that. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
One day, a glossy magazine will offer you a three
day adventure with mikel Arteta, that'll turn into a one hour,
really bad interview. But not today. Today, we're going to
answer some questions in our mail bag Sean, let's dive
right into it.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
Let's do it.
Speaker 3 (08:42):
Yeah, I mean this is I think you know, it's
our long awaited mail bag show. I will say with
both of you guys that some of our listeners will
remember we did do a mail bag show earlier. In
the away end it was just me and Daniel very
last minute when John was unable to join.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
But uh, when John was testifying in a federal case. Sean, well, yes, yes,
allegedly allegedly. Yeah, I just say, just to draw parallel
from what John just said, the away end is not
our show, it's your show. And you guys, right, this
is great that Charles and and and it really feels
special to be able to to to answer them, and
(09:23):
and it's also cool. We got emails from all over
the world, which is really exciting. So let's do it.
Speaker 3 (09:30):
So yeah, uh, you know, next week we'll be back
to our usual uh banter deep dive story.
Speaker 2 (09:37):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
But yeah, we've got so.
Speaker 3 (09:38):
Many good emails, so we're gonna we're gonna jump in,
all right, This one is from Alan. Alan says, Hello,
John and Daniel. As a football novice but fervent supporter
of Bergamo uh it leaves Adelanta b C. I have
been thoroughly enjoying the podcast. Just yesterday I gave the
(10:00):
salutorian speech my high school graduation, a speech that I
built around a quote from the show, though I admittedly
heard it first on a VLOGG Brothers episode. That quote
is of all the unimportant things, football is the most important,
by Pope John Paul. I. Like I said, though I'm
a novice, so I chose to talk about an unimportant
thing I am more of an expert on, and that's
(10:22):
being a lacrosse goalie.
Speaker 1 (10:24):
Hmm.
Speaker 3 (10:24):
This brings me to my question. I've been teased a
few times by my friends who are more familiar with
football than I am because I've said that my favorite
player is Marco Keannaseki, the superstar keeper for Atalanta. They
seem to say that no one considers goalies their favorite players,
and as a goalie, this hurts and I would love
to know what you think about this keeper slander. Great question,
(10:47):
yeah all, and nobody has keepers as their favorite player.
Speaker 1 (10:50):
That's weird. Oh I love David Rya.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
Yeah, I know you love David Rya, but not like
you love Soaka. Look, I'm going to say this.
Speaker 1 (10:59):
I think there's a strong case to be made that
David Raya is this season's most valuable player for Arsenal.
I think he's you know, the certainty and the assuredness
that he brings to the team is remarkable. The confidence
that the defenders have to play the way they do
knowing that he's behind them, The way he organizes the defense,
(11:20):
the way he dominates his box, the big saves that
he's made that are just you know, he's a catlike. Yeah,
but generally, you know, like you won't see a goalie,
uh in the in the discussion for ballond or you know,
the kind of the biggest prize for individual players. But
you know who was a goalie. Albert Camu was a goalie.
(11:44):
You know, like goalies are freaking crazy.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
Yeah, they're kind of they're a different stock. They god,
they they're they're fearless. They put their body in the
line in ways that other players don't. You see them
diving into the scrum to grab the ball. I mean,
you know, that's a dangerous games, that's arguably the most
dangerous position, and their bravery and fearlessness, you know, not
(12:09):
to call it recklessness, is something to be admired or
at the very least respected.
Speaker 1 (12:14):
I agree.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
I also think that some of the goalie slander, and
you're right alan that it is unfair, dates back to
the age when all goalies did was catch the ball
with their hands or try to stop the ball from
going in the net. Now, the position of goalie is
vastly more complicated because you have to be a brilliant
distributor of the ball, you have to have an understanding
of space, you have to be able to use all
(12:37):
four of your limbs with incredible dexterity. You know, in
many ways, it's become the most challenging position on the field,
and a lot of the you know, goalies are just
sort of brave people with quick reaction times. Way of
thinking about the position I think is outdated. And that's
(12:58):
true of lacross too, by the way, right, lacrosse goalie
is not just about how how many shots you stop.
It's also about how well you distribute the ball after
you stop a shot. So yeah, I think that with
that emergence of of of the role of goalkeeper. We
need to be more respectful of the position.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
Yeah. Yeah, so the goalkeeper is not just your last
line of defense but also your first line of attack, you.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
Know, right, And the best goalkeepers get assists.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (13:28):
Do you guys think that keepers feel the most pressure
of all of the positions on the team because they
are that last line of defense in some way, It's like.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
I do Sewan in this one unique way, which is
that if you if you, if you make a mistake
in the midfield or up front, it doesn't always lead
to a goal, but if you make a mistake as
a as a goalie, it leads to a goal nine
times out of ten. So that you're you're there's like
a bigger spotlight trained on your errors, and no one
(13:59):
is error free over the course of a game or
over the course of a season. But you know, midfielders
will lose a duel all the time, and you know,
then something happens and event you know, eventually a goal
get scored. And generally people don't point the finger at
someone who lost the ball in ninety seconds earlier, you know.
Speaker 2 (14:17):
Yeah, but for god, yeah, I think the cost of
mistakes is higher, and then also the benefit of doing
your job is lower, you know, like, very rarely are
saved celebrated like goals. Occasionally they are. I remember there
was one save the Jersey du Deck made in two
thousand and five during the Champions League Final against Schifchenko
(14:38):
that was the most amazing save I've ever seen in
my life, and that was celebrated a little bit like
a goal. But you've got to have a really special
save for it to be celebrated like an ordinary goal.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
Yeah, I mean, I think I think of the West
Ham game Matteos Fernandez is in on goal one on
one and and uh that I just stood stayed big,
stayed big for as long as possible and forced them
to go in near post and saved with a kicksabe
And that arguably one is you know, one is the title.
(15:08):
So yeah, I think I have in my head when
I think of the highlights of this season, there's five
or six game saving, point winning saves that the David
Reyah made that deserve as much credit as a as
a goal here or there. You know.
Speaker 3 (15:25):
All right, well you guys ready to move on to
the next Yeah, Yeah, let's do it.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
Let's do it.
Speaker 3 (15:31):
Hello, John and Daniel, I'm not a big sports fan,
but I enjoy your perspectives on soccer, especially the personal
or historical stories. I have a question, is there such
a thing as a compelling pre or postgame interview? Whenever
I catch an interview on the radio, it seems to
me that coaches and players use the same old, vague
(15:52):
and diplomatic phrases. But I'm also at a loss as
to what they're supposed to say that's more interesting than
we gave it, are all or our opponent proved to
be the better team. I'm looking forward to following the
Men's World Cup exclusively through the lens of your podcast.
Speaker 1 (16:07):
Cheers. Moretz love this question. I love this question. Yeah,
don what do you want from a postgame interview?
Speaker 2 (16:15):
Occasionally you'll see a postgame interview that is really honest
and it's always shocking, or when somebody's able to penetrate
the morass of sport related cliche and find a way
to express something that's fresh or original or exciting. But
it's very occasional. The only thing I'll say is that
(16:36):
there is something worse than the bland, boring press conference,
which is Mohammed Salah going to the press every time
Mohammed Sala like went out into the press area.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
In his entire.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
Liverpool career, it was to deliver an absolute bomb. That
was like, I have no confidence in the manager or
my teammates are not playing with the fire that I
would appreciate. Like, it was always to deliver an attack.
Speaker 1 (17:06):
So yeah, I'd rather you be bland than that. I
was thinking about this question a lot, actually, and I
remembered there was a guy at NBA's you know, leaving
the world of football for a moment. There was an
NBA sideline report named Craig Sager who was known for
wearing these wild suits, right yeah, And in the playoffs,
(17:31):
I can remember what season it was, like, first seed
was LA and last seed was the Timberwolves, and the
Timberwolves won the game one surprised everybody, and Kevin Garnett
gave a you know, immediately after the whistle gave us
gave an interview to Craig Sager, and of course everyone
had counted out the t Wolves, and Garnett says to
(17:53):
Craig Sager, he goes like, we're like you in that suit.
We don't care what people say. And I just remember thinking, man,
I love KG I love him. Yeah, you know. Also,
I think these guys are it's so rare. Yeah. Have
you seen John or Sean? Have you seen interviews with
(18:17):
Cole Palmer? Yes, man, I don't think so.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
I feel bad watching them. I feel guilty, like I
feel like I'm watching footballer.
Speaker 1 (18:28):
Yeah, it's uncomfortable. It's uncomfortable. I don't know what to
say about it. But if anyone here is listening, I
don't want to use any adjectives or make any long
distance diagnoses. But uh, man, wow.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
He does seem disengaged with the world of the press,
is what I would say about it.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
Yeah, it seems like the media training didn't take.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
Yeah, it's possible he's disengaged in a larger way, like with.
Speaker 1 (18:59):
It reality.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
Yeah, I think with Cole Palmer, I do wonder. I
know this, this person has an interior life that is
as complex and rich as my own. But he doesn't
seem to want to share with the media.
Speaker 1 (19:15):
That's for sure. Yes, and that's possibly a generous interpretation.
I'm not going to say anymore because I don't want
to slander someone that I've never met, who I'm sure
is a nice person despite playing for Chelsea. But yeah,
I think I think more. It's two things. I think
you should also watch the games, not just listen to
our pod. And I think you just have to learn
(19:36):
to live with bland postgame interviews, because that's how elite
athletes now are trained to engage with the media.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
You know, well, I have to say I've had a
lot of media training, and the main thing media training
attempts to do is make it so that you don't
end your career by saying something stupid. And when the
prospect of like ending your career by saying something stupid
is sitting on one of your shoulders, the other shoulder
(20:08):
is like, be bland, Be bland at all costs.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
Right, Wow, I haven't had any media training. You never
had media training? No, oh, man, I've had.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
I've had a lot of it. Really really beat the
individuality out of me.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
But and yet your career continues. So here you are, and.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
Yet like, if you watch me in an interview, you'll
be like, now, there's a guy who is looking to
deflect every question that he's asked and return it to
the issue of at hand, which is that His new novel,
Hollywood Ending, comes out on September twenty second, is available
for pre order.
Speaker 1 (20:46):
Now there's a guy who has two kids to put
through college. Yeah, exactly, all right.
Speaker 3 (20:54):
I will say I've been on the other really quick.
I've been on the other side of it, where I've
been the inner viewer, not on camera, but where I've
interviewed people after a sporting event and tried to get
those answers. And there is nothing worse than talking to
an athlete or whomever you're talking to who is either
giving you one word answers or very bland answers, and
(21:15):
it will make a two minute interview feel like an
eternity and you're just like ready to be done with
it as quickly as possible. But you know, in your
back of your mind, you're like, I have to if
it's live or not live, I'm going to have to
edit this later, so I need to get some kind
of good answers out of this person, hopefully to use
(21:36):
for whatever I'm going to be editing.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
So I don't know.
Speaker 3 (21:40):
I'm always thankful. I was always thankful for people that
had a really good answer to certain questions. And maybe
the bland answers just make the more unconventional answers all
the more enjoyable when they do have.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
That's more you'll shine through, sure, true, like watching a
boring game of football makes football richer and more exciting
when it's good. Yeah, all right, we're going to take
a break and we'll be back with more of your
questions shortly.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
All right, we're back on your way in Sean. What
do we got? All right?
Speaker 3 (22:22):
Dear Daniel and John, Is there a particular way that
you feel sport has shaped your perspectives, helped in your
career or in your personal life? Perhaps his parents Love
from London, North London Forever Jess, Hmmm, Yes, it's a
deep one.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
Yeah. There was a time when my boys were younger
when I kept in my pocket red cards and yellow cards, uh,
and and they would do something annoying and I would
just you know, put up with the yellow card. And
this really worked, you know, and like you know, you
(23:00):
didn't want to get a double yellow at a playdate,
you know, And this was actually a really good parenting technique.
And I think in my career, I think I spoke
about this on the way and but I've gotten to
play soccer in some pretty crazy places and it's always
(23:20):
helped me make friends when I've moved to new places,
new towns, or make friends in the context of reporting,
and have sort of a baseline set of shared knowledge
that I can draw upon with almost anybody that I
that I meet around the world. So that's been super helpful.
Speaker 2 (23:39):
What about you, John, Yeah, I would say that part
of it for sure is true for me as well,
that you know, anywhere I travel, football is a common
language and we can talk about that. You know, it's
not universal. Of course, not everybody's a football fan, but
a lot of people are, and that's a good point
of connection, shared side of interest. The other thing I
(24:02):
would say, though, is something else we've talked about a
lot on the pod, which is that soccer players at
a really elite level have an unbelievable amount of self belief.
They really think that they can do things that are
exceptional and hard. And that's true not only for you know,
players for Arsenal who just lifted the Premier League trophy.
(24:23):
It's also true for players in the third and fourth
divisions of English football. They have to believe that they
are really, really good and that they are capable of
extraordinary things, and that when they stick together they can,
for instance, if they get an FA Cup tie against Liverpool,
that they can beat Liverpool. They have to believe that.
(24:44):
And I've learned in my career that that ability to
tell yourself that you belong and you are good is
really useful. Y'all knew me when I was fifteen years old.
I am not somebody who has a lot of inborn
(25:04):
built in confidence. I didn't grow up with a ton
of confidence. I grew up nerdy and bullied and uncomfortable.
And I learned, partly from watching sports, that you just
have to believe in yourself. It's really really important no
matter what you do in life.
Speaker 1 (25:24):
Absolutely love that. Thank you, Jess. That was a great question.
North London Forever. Okay, what's next, Jean.
Speaker 3 (25:32):
Hello, John and Daniel. In your episode with Simon Cooper,
it was mentioned that Team USA would be playing quote
practical soccer while other countries will play quote beautiful soccer
in the upcoming World Cup. I do not know what
this means. I've tried to understand the difference between MLS
and Premier League play styles, but I just do not
(25:52):
know what to look for between these leagues regardless. Does
quote beautiful football mean better football or is considered a
specific style of play. There's any insight either of you
would be able to provide, I would appreciate it. Brand
And he's referencing, you know, Simon Cooper. We had the
great Simon Cooper, author of the most recent book World
(26:13):
Cup Fever, on a previous episode of The Away End.
You guys had a great conversation with him. If you
haven't listened to that episode, go check that one out
as well.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
Yeah, I think this is a really great question. You
want to go Tom, sure. I think part of it
is how you set up to play. You know, so
you set up one way usually to play when you
have the ball, in one way when you don't have
the ball, and a lot of teams that are playing
sort of practical football that don't have the talent level
(26:44):
of their opponents are going to set up with what
sometimes called a low block. They're going to set up
in a really defensive position and try to kind of
withstand pressure. And then when they have the ball, which
they know will be for a minority of the game,
they you know, organize themselves differently or they try to
focus on counterattacking, so getting the ball back and then
(27:05):
moving very very quickly up the field. And trying to
make something happen that way. That way of playing football
is generally considered, although perhaps unfairly, less beautiful, less moving,
less like visually exciting and interesting and intricate than you know,
like the way Brazil or the Netherlands play football, where
(27:27):
everybody is touching the ball all the time, and you know,
the sort of total football of the Dutch from the
nineteen seventies where you know, your your your defenders can
become attackers and your attackers can become defenders, and everybody
is moving in a very flowing, coordinated, open way.
Speaker 1 (27:48):
Is that fair to say, Daniel, Or have I missed something? Yeah? No,
I think that's that's exactly right. I think you know,
this season Arsenal one. I'm sorry I keep referencing this
thing that happened because it's prettympore to me. But you know,
a lot of the critique I think was fairly lobbed
at Arsenal was that it wasn't a particularly beautiful game
to watch. They scored a lot of goals from corner kicks,
(28:09):
they from set pieces. Uh, pretty turgid offensively and just
impenetrable defensively. Uh, you know, Titanic defenders. So I think,
you know, next weekend, uh Arsenal's playing PSG in the
Champions League Final. PSG is a team that has played
much less football than Arsenal because of the way the
(28:31):
league League league is set up, and they save their best,
very best players to for for for Europe, and they
play an incredible attacking I mean, they're just irresistible to watch,
and it's really gonna be a clash of styles. And
I would say to Brandt, you know, watch that game,
or even just watch the highlights of you know, uh
(28:52):
Arsenal Atletico and then watched the highlights of uh PSG
Byron of the first leg of either of those games.
Both that were very entertaining games in their own way,
but for the untrained eye, you know, the PSD Byron
game was box office. I mean that was incredible. You know,
it had everything. It was just attacking, attacking, attacking, two
(29:14):
teams of incredible attacking talent who seemed not that interested
in playing defense, just seeing who could you know, it
was like a basketball game, who can who can score more?
The Arsenal game was attritional, was very tactical, both teams
sort of playing within themselves, and you know ended up
(29:35):
in a draw one one. It's totally different and you
could you know, that's probably the starkest difference. And then
you'll see a huge difference on Saturday in the Champions
League Final because Arsenal's not going to go out there
to try to play expansive, free flowing you know, front
to back and in like six intricate one touch passes
through the midfield of PSD. It would be it would
(29:57):
be silly to do that. What they're going to do
is try to narrow the game and hit them on
the counter or hit them on a set piece, you know,
and that's what's gonna happen, because it just doesn't make sense,
you know. I think both are great once you know,
I understand why Arsenal got so much criticism this season
for playing that way. I also think that if you
look at you know, there's reasons why you end up
(30:19):
playing that way. Injuries, you know, playing against the low
block all the time forces you to try different things,
including set pieces, to try to you know, break the
dead luck. I don't know's it's I find it all
kind of fun. I've definitely seen boring games in my life,
but a really kind of Cagy tactical game can be
fun to watch as well.
Speaker 2 (30:37):
Yeah, And as for the difference between MLS and the
Premier League, I think that you're right to not be
able to see a visual difference.
Speaker 1 (30:44):
Like they both cross the ball really well.
Speaker 2 (30:49):
I mean they're probably a little more somewhat more crosses
into the box in MLS, but like they both cross
the ball well, they both switch fields of play well.
MLS is a little slower pace of it is a
little slower, and you can you can tell that difference.
The players are more likely to be walking, which is
why it's also a great league if you're thirty eight
year old li at all MESSI but I think they're
(31:13):
you know, technically very good and the level of you know,
like that basic technical stuff is pretty high. Where you
will really see the difference is if you come watch
an AFC Wimbledon game with me, then you'll be like, oh,
I get it. Like these are like you know, these
are long passes where lots of people are heading it
(31:33):
and then they're heading it and then they're heading it
and nobody really has the ball forty minutes of the
ninety minutes, and there you can see the difference.
Speaker 1 (31:42):
I want to say one more thing about this In Spanish,
In Spanish announcers, you know, proven announcers, I'll say this, Well,
when someone kicks the ball high, they'll say dividel ballogne.
You know, like when someone just clears the ball away,
they're like, he just divided the ball. And it's basically like,
you know, he didn't say like he cleared it, he spang,
did he you know, defensive clear? No, it's like divided ballone,
(32:03):
meaning he got the ball away and now we don't
know who's going to get it. And there's it's a
bit of a pejorative because like you should be you know,
even defensively building right, And I think that that, you know,
that's one of the things that if you have a
high level of technical play, then you're more likely to
be able to do that successfully.
Speaker 2 (32:20):
But you have to have the quality to build, and
a lot of exacts don't have the quality to build.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
I have a good friend, my friend Luke Dempsey, who
told me that when he was growing up at England
he's a little bit older than us, you put the
worst players in the midfield because basically you would kick it,
you know, as hard as you could as high as
you could over the midfield. It was equivalent of being
like playing softball as a kid and you suck, so
they put you in the outfield. So the midfield players
(32:46):
barely ever touched the ball. You go straight from defense
to attack, and often with the you know ballon DVD deal,
you know, the ball was divided between two teams and
then it would just bounce around until someone would get
a shove. You know. That's obviously changed, you know, tremendously,
and now you put your best players in the midfield,
(33:06):
your most technical players, your players who were most assured
or two footed, you know, and put them in the
field because they can distribute and they can do things
that you otherwise would be able to do.
Speaker 3 (33:16):
All right, let's go to our next question. Hi, Daniel,
John and Sean. My question is specifically for Daniel, can
you please explain to me the allure of the North
London Derby. I've been following soccer for a long time,
but as an American, it took me a while to
choose a European team to support. However, a few years ago,
after many years of waffling, I made the highly dubious
(33:39):
decision to support Tottenham in part having been romance by
the beautiful play and gleeful smile of the now departed
sun hung men. Now a few years in, I still
don't get the allure of the North London Derby. That is,
I don't get why I'm supposed to dislike Arsenal. As
a longtime Arsenal supporter yourself, I'd be interested. I'd be
interested to hear any insight into this matter. You may
(34:02):
have thanks and keep up the great work, Evan god
I love this question, John, I love this question. Okay,
So there's there are historical reasons, and there's also the
most important reason, which is like, the reason you buy
into rivalry is because it's part of belonging, you know.
And I think as a as a Spurs fan, Evan,
(34:23):
you should hate Arsenal because that's part of the kind
of contract, you know, that's part of what you signed
on for. And so the historical reasons, I'll just jump
into these, because Arsenal is a team that was originally
formed in South London fifteen workers at this munitions factory
that was called Woolwich, and that club was founded in
(34:44):
the late eighteen hundreds, originally called Dial Square, then Royal
Arsenal and Woolwich Arsenal eventually just Arsenal.
Speaker 1 (34:51):
In nineteen thirteen, Arsenal moved from South London to Highbury
and this was just four miles down the road from
Whitehart Lane, which was Tottenham Stadium, and that's where the
beef begins. They played before, but it wasn't a Darby,
it wasn't a rivalry because they were just two teams
from London, from different parts of London. When Arsenal moved
in and encroached upon Tottenham's territory, that's when the rivalry began,
(35:18):
and it's basically just a neighborhood beef, like who's the
king of North London is the thing. The rivalry escalated
a few years later, and this is I think Tottenham
fans and Tottenham historians have a legitimate beef here because
the English top flight expanded to twenty two teams and
Tottenham was one of the teams that had been relegated.
So one of the options was just to keep the
(35:39):
teams that have been relegated and then add a few more.
But the Powers would be skipped over Tottenham and grabbed
Arsenal from the league below. They'd finished like sixth in
the league below and brought them up to expand the league.
And you know what, that's super unfair and that sort
of cemented sort of the historical reasons why Tottenham and
(36:00):
Arsenal do not get along. But you know, I mean,
Darby's are just rivalries just mean more. And so you
can have a shit season if you're an Everton fan,
if you have a bad season, but you beat Liverpool,
you know, and if you do the unthinkable, which is
like be Liverpool at Anfield, that's a great season. That's
(36:20):
that's one of the moments that you have. And winning
at white Hart Lane or winning at Tottenham Stadium is
better than winning at Brighton. You know. It's just it's
just more pleasurable, you know. And I would just encourage you, Evan,
just to lean into it, man, lean into it and
(36:44):
enjoy it. One day you're gonna beat us and it's
going to be great. Could happen next season? Yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:48):
I think about this in the context of whether it's
possible to create an US that doesn't also create a them.
You know, to what extent can we create strong communities
that don't have others? And I think it's really hard.
It's a lot easier to make that US affairs of them,
(37:08):
and this is a relatively healthy way to do it,
as long as you remember that it's just a construct
and it's not real, and like you know, Tottenham fans
are not like inherently better or worse than Arsenal fans.
It's just, uh, it's just a way of strengthening the
sense of us.
Speaker 1 (37:25):
Yeah. Yeah, and I use I use hate in air quotes,
you know, like the rival recourse. I know is it's
it's all it's all fun and games, and it's not.
It's not and nor should it be anything more than that,
you know, uh and yeah, and there's it's really hard
sometimes because there's so much furvor and emotion around these games,
(37:45):
and you see it all over the world where fandom
becomes something else that it shouldn't be. You know, that
is not it's not about belonging. It's about you know,
it's about violence and anger and and rancor. And that
isn't any fun for anybody. So don't lean into that, evan,
(38:07):
lean into the fun parts of a rivalry and celebrate
your team and congratulations for staying up. All right, So
let's take a quick break, guys, and we'll come back
with a few more questions and then a story from
a listener.
Speaker 2 (38:36):
All right, we're back on the away and Sean, what's
our next question?
Speaker 3 (38:39):
Hello, John and Daniel. In my life, I have deeply
loved two football teams, the US women's national team and Liverpool.
They have both given me so much over the years,
from epic highs to devastating lows and some of the
best people in the world. But as happens with the
all professionals sports teams, they change over time. Players retire
(39:00):
or get traded, managers rotate through and the team that
you fell in love with doesn't really exist anymore. To me,
this feeling is like a prolonged, excruciating breakup that you
have no control over it, and I can't seem to
figure out how to get over it. As season team
supporters who have seen many, many versions of the teams
you love, do you get this feeling too, and if so, how.
Speaker 1 (39:22):
Do you deal with it? Jamie?
Speaker 2 (39:25):
I am devastated when a player I really love leaves
the football club, like I remember when Roberto Fromino left Liverpool.
It was like a not like a close family member
had abandoned me, but like a first cousin or something
was like, I don't want you in my life anymore.
Speaker 1 (39:43):
I want to go to Saudi.
Speaker 2 (39:44):
Arabia now, and I was really actively sad, which I
know is ludicrous. Roberta Formo doesn't think about me, and
nor should he when he's making his decisions about his
footballing career. But I guess the benefit of having been
a long term fan is that you see all those
people come back. You know, you see that. You just
(40:06):
know that Roberta Fermino is going to return to anfield
twenty years from now, and he's going to hear those
same songs that we sung for him when he was
a player, and he's gonna cry, and he's gonna have
his kids with him, and his kids are going to
be twenty years old and playing for Barcelona's youth team
or something. You just you're able to zoom out and
see that in the context of this being part of
(40:27):
Liverpool or the US women's national team will always have
been an important part of these people's lives, and so
they aren't really all the way gone just because they've
they've moved on or retired.
Speaker 1 (40:40):
Yeah. Absolutely, that's a great answer. I also think that
the the trajectories of teams and the fallow periods are
what make the Swede moments all the all the sweeters.
So you see a player go and your heartbroken, especially
when players go to a bigger club or for more
(41:02):
money or for the chances to win the trophies that
your particular club can't offer at the moment. And then
you know, some kid from the academy shows up and
embodies the values of the club or the values that
you associate with your club, and loves the shirt and
just loves playing for the team and brings new energy,
(41:25):
and then you fall in love all over again. And
that's part of the process of loving a team and
supporting a team. And with the national team it's the same,
you know. You know there are good there are players
that we have not really heard of yet who in
six weeks time will be household names across the world
(41:47):
who are going to make their mark on this tournament
and do beautiful, amazing things for their national teams and
become heroes, you know, And that's a really exciting thing
to not yet know who those players are.
Speaker 3 (42:00):
Can I just note that when Jamie said, as seasoned
team supporters who have seen many, many versions of the
teams you love. I felt that I felt that a
little bit. It do a little bit like an attack.
They could have just said one mini would have sufficed,
but yeah, two many.
Speaker 1 (42:20):
Yeah. I was asked to when I was playing in
New York a few years ago. I was asked to
join a team and I was like, guys, I'm pretty old,
and he's like, yeah, but the club has lots of
different age levels, and the age level that I was
asked to play in was the age level was Legends.
It was like deceased, you know. I was like, oh wow,
(42:46):
And then I want to play with Legends and I couldn't.
I couldn't hang. They were in such good shape. These
were all like fifty five year old guys, who could,
you know, run for days. I was like, nah, I
can't do it. I can't do it anyway, all right.
Speaker 3 (43:00):
Next question, Hello Daniel and John. What do you think
of the straight red card rumored to be a new
rule in this Men's World Cup for any player who
covers his mouth during a dispute with an opposing player.
It feels kind of bonkers, but maybe it's grounded in
something that I'm not getting with Giant appreciation for all
(43:20):
you were doing in your pod. Liz from Washington State, Liz,
there is an unfortunate reason that this has to be
a rule, And the reason, I'm sorry is that people
around the world are racist. And there have been multiple
incidents of people players covering their mouths and then saying
(43:44):
something racist, and then a player reporting it and not
either not being believed or being dismissed or being booed
by opposing fans and some teams who are also racist,
and the whole thing is ann fortunate, just reality of
the world that we live in. I wonder how closely
(44:07):
this rule is going to be enforced. I think so
many yeah, so many players just have the habit of
doing this because you don't want the cameras to pick
up if you're having a conversation about tactics or who's
going to take the free kick or whatever. And it's
just becomes such a habit that some player is going
to accidentally cover their mouth not say something racist, you know,
(44:30):
but just to have a conversation with another player on
the pitch, and they might get a red card.
Speaker 1 (44:37):
And I'm worried about that. But there is a reason,
and that's the reason there is a good reason.
Speaker 2 (44:42):
I'm worried that it will be enforced haphazardly, or that
it'll be somebody who accidentally covers their mouth while saying
something totally innocuous and gets a red card, and that's
such a huge shift in the overall vibe of a
game that it would be a catastrophic mistake player to make.
And so I just I worry about that. But I
(45:02):
absolutely understand that you know, this is this has been
a problem over and over and over again, and every
time the offending player says, well, I didn't say anything,
and they're they always set it behind their hand so
that you can't read their lips or and the referee
might not hear it, and so you know.
Speaker 1 (45:21):
It's it.
Speaker 2 (45:23):
It comes from an important place. We'll see how it's
actually implemented.
Speaker 3 (45:29):
Yeah, absolutely, it's going to be curious. It's going to
be curious.
Speaker 1 (45:33):
And I'm reminded of something in Simon Cooper's book where
he talks about the way referees for World Cups are chosen,
and it's not necessarily because they're the best referees, you know,
because FIFA and all the federations that are beneath FIFA
the national organizations sort of suffer from the same level
(45:54):
of corruption. You're not going to necessarily get the greatest
refs around. You're just going to get someone who is
you know, plucked from their national league and thrown into
the mixer, and they either don't have the training, they
might not have the expertise, or they might not have
the cohonis to make you know, the right calls at
(46:17):
the right moments. So adding this kind of rule, although
I support anything that we can do to sort of
stamp out racism in the game and in the world.
You know, let's see how it works. It could really backfire,
but it remains to be seen. But that is the reason. Liz,
all right, Sean, what have we got? All Right?
Speaker 3 (46:39):
We have a pretty epic story here from listener William.
You know, as a way and listeners know, you know,
we usually end the podcast with a story from one
of you guys, but when we got this email from William,
we felt like it deserved to end today's episod. So yeah,
(47:02):
we will dive in here to his story. William. It's
a great story. Dear John and Daniel. I was sixteen,
the brain of the Vuvazela dominated the halls of my
Long Island High School, and all of my friends and
I followed along with the games as best as we could.
I grew more and more excited as the tournament progressed.
That year, the school's foreign language class trip was to
(47:25):
Spain and we would be there during the semi final
and final matches. Fast forward to the trip and twenty
five high schoolers are going from city to city in
Spain with some teachers as chaperones. We watched the semifinal
match while we're there, and we celebrate with the country
that they're going to the final. The whole country was electric.
I had never felt anything like it in the United States,
(47:46):
and to this day, I still have not. We were
going to watch Spain play for the World Cup while
actually in Spain. It was going to be amazing. My
friends and I immediately went to our teachers, who we
were on great terms with, and tried to figure out
where we would be watching the final. We thought that
this was a dream come true for us and them.
(48:06):
What better cultural immersion for a foreign language class than this.
Speaker 1 (48:11):
Well, as it.
Speaker 3 (48:12):
Turned out, our itinerary was already set for that time.
Our teachers had months beforehand scheduled a party cruise for
all of us. It was meant to be a river
cruise in Sevilla, where we'd get the chance to hang
out with other people our age. I had never in
my life argued to get out of a party more
than I did for us to skip that cruise. My
(48:36):
friends and I desperately tried to explain that there was
no way that anyone would be on that boat during
the final I honestly wasn't even sure it would be
manned with a crew.
Speaker 1 (48:48):
In the way.
Speaker 3 (48:48):
Only Americans who don't understand that football is the world's
sport could be. My teachers confidently asserted that plenty of
people would be there, regardless of the game listeners they were.
The total population of this river cruise turned out to
be twenty five American high schoolers, three American high school teachers,
(49:13):
one young American couple, two very upset bartenders. It was
a dry cruise, and presumably the captain of this fine vessel.
My friends and I spent the entirety of the cruise
with the bartenders huddled around a radio, desperately trying to
follow along with the game. We floated along the river
(49:37):
seeing watch parties at beautiful luxury riverside homes go by.
At one point, the captain slowed down as much as
possible because one of these parties was projecting the game
onto the side of a building. Those few minutes were
the only part of the final that I ever got
(49:58):
to watch. Then, of course, Spain won in the country erupted.
If I thought the tournament was electric, this was something else.
Speaker 1 (50:08):
Entirely.
Speaker 3 (50:10):
We watched from our hotel rooms that night, as the
partying never stopped on the streets below. Our tour guide
and bus driver told us how they celebrated all night
running through the fountains in the city. Since then, all
I've wanted was for the US to experience that kind
of energy. The love and excitement that can come from
the sport is something I've truly never seen replicated elsewhere.
(50:33):
I hope fervently that hosting this World Cup would do it,
but I have to say I am not confident that
it will. Maybe one day.
Speaker 5 (50:41):
Best William, amazing, amazing, that's so such a great way
to watch slash.
Speaker 1 (50:51):
Listen to the final. Oh god, this is the absence
of it, just like the longing. You know you can
see from the boat, but you're just like that far
offshore and you can't leave, and you're a kid too,
you know. And the bartenders with the dry cruise, Oh god,
those poor guys. It's a fundamental and he's right. I
(51:14):
feel bad for the teachers, but he's right to call
him out because it's a fundamental misunderstanding of how this
stuff works, you know. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (51:24):
I remember when the US women's national team won the
World Cup back in nineteen ninety six, I think maybe
ninety eight. I can't remember for sure, but in the
nineties I was working at a ice cream shop outside
of Moose Pass, Alaska, and when the final penalty kick
(51:47):
went in and Brandy Chastain ripped off her shirt to celebrate,
I went outside and I heard one horn honking, and
then after a long moment of silence, I heard fuck yeah, America.
And that was as close as I've ever come to that, William,
That's as close as I've ever come.
Speaker 1 (52:04):
To that feeling. Wow. Yeah, I gotta say I'm very
excited to watch the World Cup mostly from Boruta, mostly
here in Columbia, because everyone's gonna be watching the World Cup,
and it is different. It is different. I think the
United States is so big and so vast and contain
so many multitudes. There's in any monoculture anymore, and certainly
(52:24):
none that embraces football and puts it at its very center,
as often happens in other parts of the world. So yeah,
it's a different experience. It's gonna be a different experience.
I don't think we'll have that level. But maybe in
New York, maybe in Philly, maybe in the cities that
are hosting World Cup games, in Miami, in Atlanta. You know,
(52:47):
you know, I I think if you just you need
to seek out those places where people are going to
watch the games. I remember I can remember which World
Cup it was. It must have been twenty ten, watching
the game in in a big plaza in front of
City Hall in San Francisco, packed with people. It was
a USA England game. Do you remember the game where
(53:09):
Rob Green? Rob Green let the ball between his legs. Yeah, yeah,
we watched that. Yah, yeah, yeah, that was rough. I
watched that in a bar with some buddies. That was
a fun game. It was a fun game. So, William,
I think you are obviously now an adult who can
make your own decisions abou where to watch the games
and I would just do everything possible to watch them
(53:30):
with friends and family or with people who have kind of,
you know, emotional stake in the outcome of the games,
you know, with different communities of folks, and that's going
to be great. Just it's gonna be a great experience.
I loved your story, William, Thank you so much for
sharing that with us.
Speaker 2 (53:47):
Yeah, and thanks to everybody who writes in at away
ndpod at gmail dot com. We love reading your emails.
We'll be sure to read more of them on the
air in the future. In the meantime, thank you to
Daniel and Sean and Kurt.
Speaker 1 (53:59):
Are edited and producers for.
Speaker 2 (54:02):
All their work.
Speaker 1 (54:03):
And we'll see you next week. See you guys, MHM.
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