February 4, 2026 • 47 mins
On the third episode of The Away End, Daniel and John highlight Uruguay and their coach, Marcelo “El Loco” Bielsa while exploring Uruguay's chances of advancing to the knockout round and beyond. They also discuss the possibility of a World Cup boycott, and John recounts the unbelievable events of the 1994 Caribbean Cup match between Barbados and Grenada.
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
Welcome to the Away and I'm John Green.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
I'm Danian Alercon. How are you doing, John, I'm.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Doing all right. It's good to be with you. I'm
excited to do our first deep dive into a national
football team.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Oh my god, me too. I had a lot of
fun preparing this a lot. We're gonna do Uruguay today.
I'm gonna do Uruguay.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
Just I've been just.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Some ground rules maybe or just ground invitations. I'll talk,
but feel free to rupt me at any time with
questions that I may or I will answer. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So this is the way, and everyone knows it's a
soccer podcast. We're building up to the World Cup and
we're gonna spend a lot of time in the show
going deep onto you know, different national teams. I'm gonna
start today with Uruguay. I have to thank my friend
(00:48):
and colleague Bruno, who's Uruguayan. You may know I know,
you know John. Listeners may know I run another podcast
company called Studios. Bruno is like me, a soccer obsessive
and he's not the only one on the team. But
I called him up because I wanted to talk about
Uruguay and he's based in Montevideo and he's a crazy
(01:10):
soccer fan like we are. So I'm going to annoy
all of my Uruguayan friends by saying that. In order
underson Uruguay, we got to start by talking about an Argentine.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
Oh is that very controversial. That's super controversial. I imagine
it is because of the the soccer history, if not
anything else geopolitical.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Yeah, I mean, I think you know, Uruguay is a
very small country relative to Argentina.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
You're annoying, You're Uruguayan friends more now, Yeah, no, no.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
But it's it's I think there's there's a kind of
tension there because they don't like to be considered a
small country in soccer terms. They're punching way above their
weight historically. But there's always a rivalry with your neighbors,
you know. So I want to start with your guy
talking about this Argentine and I want to talk about
someone that you have certainly heard of John and I'm
talking about Marcelo Bielza. Also. Yeah, I have a long
(02:00):
standing I don't want to say love affair, but a
deep admiration for this totally crotchety lunatic. I even pitched
the new Yorker profile of him, which you know, weirdly,
I never heard back about this, but I read.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
I find me my favorite Marcello Biels's story real quick, Yes,
go ahead. So he's such a football obsessive that he
had the line painted from his house to the Leeds
Football Stadium so he didn't have to look up.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Yeah, and he would ride on his bike with his
with his uh so so he and his assistant coach
could prepare for the that day's training without having to
worry about getting lost. That was what I heard.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
I love that story.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Yes, that says a lot about who he is for
those of us, for the listeners who might don't really
know a lot more or a lot about yet Sam
and I'm talking to our producer Sean. Obviously, modern football
would not be the same without him. Perhaps the most
famous example is that Pep Guardiola, you know, generally regarded
as the greatest coach of his generation. When he took
the Barcelona job. The first thing he did when he
(02:58):
was he was given the job was to go visit
Bieza and spent you know, two days just sort of
picking his brain to sort of understand how he could
modernize his tactics so he's like a coach's coach, a
manager's manager. And I want to give an example that again,
this is going to annoy my Yuruguay and friends because
this is not Uruguay specific, but a game that you
certainly remember. John It says possibly one of his greatest
(03:21):
compstruments as a coach was to bring Leeds United back
up to the Premier League. So they're promoted, first game back.
Who do they have to play but Liverpool at anfield
and newly proted side playing the champions that year, and
Liverpool scores very early in the game, leads ties it up,
Liverpool scores again, leads ties it up, Liverpool scores for
(03:43):
a third time, leads ties again, and at this point
it's like seventieth minute and a newly proted team against
the champions away from home. Like a normal human being,
a normal manager would just take the draw, like shut
it down and just play out the game. But Bearsa
doesn't do that because he's a purist and he's a dogmatic, obsessive.
(04:06):
And I pulled out this quote from a journalist named
Seki Fernandez Moree when I interviewed him when I was
literally pitching this profile to the New Yorker and he said,
because he doesn't care how many goals get scored on you.
He only cares about scoring one goal more than his rival, right,
And so he kept attacking at anfield away from home
(04:27):
Newly from decided first game of the season, and of
course the inevitable happened, which is Liverpool scored and Leads
lost that season. That first season that Bissa was in
the Premier League with Leeds United, he you get headlines
like this one. Bersa says Leads will not abandon playing
style after six' to two thrashing A Man. United so
(04:47):
he's like, absolutely just like this is this is the
Hill i'm going to die on attacking football, always AND
i should mention, that as crazy as it, sounds they
didn't just stay. Up they finished ninth that, season which
is firmly promoted side. Incredible but of Course bielsa was
sacked the next, season as he always. Is bissa is
(05:07):
the kind of coach who wears his teams. Down he
always starts great and always the wheels always come. Off
so that's the kind of. BACKSTORY a couple other examples of.
This he. Managed his first manager job was At messi's first,
Club Noel's Old boys In. Argentina his other great achievement
was he Took Athletic club of Bill bao to two
(05:28):
Finals Europa league And cope Deel.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
Re An Athletic club of Bill boo is an unusual
football club in that they can only Play basque players by,
tradition and so they have an incredibly small pool of
players to draw. From and yet they had this astonishing
success With, bielsa.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
Yes where they made it to two finals and they
lost both of them through nothing To barcelona and To.
Athletico so he's kind of known In argentina as this
lovable philosopher king mad scientist who kind of doesn't win
he gets.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
Close biels is one of those guys, who if he
had Eleven bielsa's he would win every. Game but he. Does,
yes he has eleven regular football, players.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
Right he demands a level of obsession like that a
lot of players can't maintain energy levels that players can't.
Maintain so he uh takes Over uruguay the national. Team
Now i'm getting to the Interesting uruguay part of the.
Story he takes Over uruguay at this moment of kind
of generational change players Like Forlan, muslera they're, Out cavani's you,
(06:37):
know on his way. Out suatz is on his last.
KNEE i wouldn't say last, LEG i would say last.
Knee and he brings in some new, players but he
doesn't actually bring in any of the youngsters who won
the twenty twenty Three under Twenty World. Cup there's actually
zero of those players on the national team. Now and
he's kind of known for having a short. Bench you,
know he has his players he, trusts and he doesn't
bring in other. Players but he manages this generational shit pretty.
(07:00):
Well there, is, however a point of, inflection AND i
want to point this. Out before The copamerica twenty twenty,
Four uruguay won a possible thirteen points out of a
possible eighteen points In South american, qualifiers. Right that included
victories Over argentina And, brazil the first time THAT i
had ever Beaten brazil in qualifying. Matches so this is, huge,
(07:23):
right and thirteen out of eighteen points is pretty damn. Good,
however After Copa, America uruguay won only fifteen out of
a possible thirty six, points so they really fell off
THE biersa effect happened, NOW i think to understand, this
And bruno explained this to. Me he's, like let's let's
get into what happened At. Copamedica you might remember those, Scenes,
(07:47):
john BECAUSE i think he was one of your players
at that, Point Darwin nunyaz running into the stands to
Fight colombian fans in the semifinals of The.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
Copamenica he did not cover himself in glory that.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
Day he, didn't nor did The colombian. Fans to be,
fair it was a really unpleasant. Situation it was a
very complicated situation where nobody behaved. Well but THAT i
think reflected most poorly on the organizers of the event,
itself because they shouldn't have had the family members of
the players anywhere near any place that could have put
(08:19):
them in. Danger the players obviously can't go into the
stands and fight. Fans the fans obviously can't throw things
at the players or threaten people from another. TEAM i,
mean it's, like it was all kinds of nasty and unpleasant. Scenes,
honestly SCENES i think THAT i hope that they've ironed
out for The World cup to, come but it was
it was a bad. Scene so, afterwards several players are,
(08:39):
sanctioned AND i don't know. HOW i don't have all
the top my. Head how many players were banned from certain.
GAMES i Know Darwin juniez was banned from a, few
but just as significantly after That copamedica, debacle ALTHOUGH i should,
say let me parenthetically BEFORE i get to, That bruno
says that it was actually.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
A pretty Good.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
Copamedica making it to the semifinals was not a bad
result at all For, uruguay so he wasn't upset about
what happened on the.
Speaker 1 (09:04):
Field he.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
Was What bruno was telling me was kind of like
the knock on effects of the, chaos and one of
them was that Swat is kind officially retired from the
national team and then gave an interview where he kind
of split the. Team he basically talked bad About, bieza he,
said doesn't listen to the, players people don't like, him
and the team kind of broke up after. That and you,
(09:26):
know the results speak for, themselves and Although uruguay finishes
fourth on twenty eight, points they're you, Know paraguay also
has twenty eight. Points in, fact you could kind of
break Down South american qualifiers Into argentina in one, group
all on zone because they were way ahead of the,
pack and then everyone from place two to, six which Is, Ecuador, Columbia, Uruguay,
(09:50):
Brazil paraguay all twenty nine twenty eight, Points bolivia In
venezuela fighting it out for the last spot in the intercontinental,
qualifiers and Then bruni fighting it out to see who's the.
Worst so, sorry but basically what you see after The
copaminica Is uruguay nos diving and the culmination of all,
(10:12):
this according To bruno and according to lots of people
in the media and then turn of THE us, media
was the five to one loss in a friendly to
The United. States so in THE us that was interpreted
as sort of Like pochettino has finally sort of gotten
his players to. Respond In, uruguay it was kind of
a ratification of trajectory that they'd seen coming that it
(10:34):
was just like this team is. Broken SO i find
that really. FASCINATING i find it totally of a piece
with everything THAT i know About pietresa and the way
his teams fall, apart which honestly doesn't make me like him.
Less he seems to me like a, poetic tragic. Figure
you know you're gonna see him on the sidelines at
The World. Cup he's in his late seventies, now kind
(10:55):
of scowling and like sitting on an upside down, bucket
like staring into the. Distance he's going to give weird
post match press. Conferences it's going to be interesting to
have him. There, Obviously you're guy has some fantastic, players
some individual talents that play on some of the greatest
teams in the, world you, Know, barbrajo. Etc like really great,
players et.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
Cetera but.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
Something psychically broke with that, team according To bruno there At,
copaminica AND i find those inflection points really. Interesting What
biezza is historically not known for is recovering. From like
once he loses a locker, room it's. Gone it's. Gone
he doesn't get them back because he's such a weirdly,
polarizing you, know complicated. Personality he's not a warm and fuzzy.
(11:42):
Manager you, know.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
He doesn't hug you like you're going clop hugs.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
You he does not hug you like you're in clop hugs.
You he's he's got the kind OF i woun't want
to say he doesn't he lacks, charisma BECAUSE i think's
quite charismatic in the way of like a weird. Professor
but it's like getting a hug from a chain link,
fence you, know it's like not it's not gonna feel
you make you feel warm and. Fuzzy SO i Asked, bruno,
like so what do you expect to? Happen and he
says something really. Interesting bruno was, like, well every you,
(12:08):
know we work at a narrative podcast, company so everyone
on the team speaks in. Narrative But bruno said something
THAT i really, liked and he, said, like every team
has a story to, write AND i don't know what
your guy's story is in This World, cup but the
story that he would, like the story that would make him,
satisfied is to get second place out of the, group
(12:30):
to Face argentina and to eliminate them elimin at. Campion
that's what he. Said that's what he, said Eliminat campion
and if that, happens whatever happens after that is, fine no.
Problem so just knock Out argentina and everything's. Good.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
NOW i want to finish with this BECAUSE i think
it's so. Great can we cut in actually and Ask
SEAN a. Question, yeah, Hey, sean what's up. Guys this
is our Producer sean also a friend of ours from high. School,
sean what do you think gets you a star on your?
Jersey you know how some teams have stars on their,
jersey LIKE i Think brazil has. Five other teams have
like one or. None what do you think it's your
(13:07):
star on the? Jersey And i'll confess this is a
bit of a trick. QUESTION i would.
Speaker 3 (13:15):
You've either MAYBE, mvp like did they have MVPs if
you were you, know do DID?
Speaker 1 (13:22):
Mvp or?
Speaker 3 (13:23):
MAYBE i guess everyone on the team has the. Stars
so you've won a certain, championship then you nailed.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
It yeah a. Star there you. Go you've nailed. It
took it two, swings, man.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
But you got.
Speaker 2 (13:33):
It. Nice, So sean And, JOHN i want to tell
you about the four stars, controversy Which, bruno AS i,
mentioned is an obsessive like. Me he actually went To
zurich to THE fifa museum and to him it's not
controversial at. All he's, like it's in the, museum this
is totally. Legit but you're going hosted the First World
(13:53):
cup in nineteen thirty and, one right then they Beat
brazil in nineteen fifty at the Famous markanasso where they
Beat brazil In brazil and one nothing for their what
would you would think would be their second.
Speaker 1 (14:11):
Star because they won their Second World, cup their second one, cup,
right but they wear four, stars and the question is.
Why so the reasoning is very simple that before there
was A World, cup but ONCE fifa had already been,
CREATED fifa organized the soccer portion of The olympics and
so those are RECOGNIZED Fifa World. Championships the nineteen twenty
(14:35):
Four olympics they Beat argentina in The olympic. Final the
Following World cup they Beat holland or The netherlands in
The olympic final nineteen twenty. Eight then they won in
nineteen thirty their third, star and they won a nineteen
fifty their four. Star so they're the only team that
has four stars that are not sort of strictly, Speaking
(14:57):
World cup, stars, right four, stars but Two World cups.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
Four, stars but Two World cups. Exactly What bruno said
to me THAT i thought was really. Interesting he's, like
if we had lost one of those, finals then we
would have an ally in. This But uruguay at a
time when soccer was an amateur. Sport, Sure uruguay was a,
monster you, know and you can imagine if The netherlands
had won in nineteen twenty eight they would obviously put
(15:23):
that star on their damn. Jersey In argentina too would
love to, have you, know four stars instead of, three
but Since uruguay won them both then they have no.
Allies and so somebody complained BEFORE i believe the twenty
Eighteen World, cup And bruno insists that it was Some
argentine and there was briefly a controversy THAT fifa squashed
(15:44):
And uruguay's allowed officially to have four, stars which is
why they will have four stars when the tournament starts In. June,
wow that's, it any Questions.
Speaker 3 (15:54):
Uruguay so all, right they're In GROUP h, Right they're
playing Against Saudi Arabia, verde who is obviously a massive
UNDERDOG i would imagine in this, group and Then, spain
WHO i would imagine as a perennial favorite to. Advance
so that seems very feasible that they would get out
of the group in, yes second, place With spain being
(16:17):
the ones who would ultimately win the. Group is that
kind of how you guys are seeing this.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
Shakeout, YEAH i, Mean i'm going to do a deep
dive Into Cape perty later on in the season before
The World cup, starts And i'm super. EXCITED i have
a close friend From Cape, barty AND i want to
see them do. WELL i think there's only one way
to look at first and second, place which Is spain And.
Uruguay if you're why were not to get out of this,
group that would be a, catastrophe a Very bielsen. Catastrophe,
(16:45):
actually he famously flopped with the two thousand and Two
Argentina World cup, team so it wouldn't Be it would
be of a piece with his kind of tragic career
in some, ways like never has there been someone so
successful who's been so. Successful but, yeah the money is
On spain, Winning uruguay getting, second and Then uruguay would
(17:06):
face first place Of argentina', group which would probably Be,
argentina and that's When bruno's dreams come true or.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
Not So bruno's dream is very, realistic except for the
part Where uruguay Beats, argentina WHICH i think is not impossible,
certainly but a.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
CHALLENGE i, mean, LOOK i think that's the beauty about.
Knockouts is that in ninety, minutes anything can, happen, RIGHT
i mean we've all seen those games where you, know
the goalie plays a blinder and then someone scuffs the
ball in off their shin at the other, end and you,
know the team that had twenty two shots on target somehow.
(17:39):
Loses you, know you know those kinds Of that's one
of the beauties of this.
Speaker 1 (17:46):
Sport you.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
Know in, basketball a team that's hot is always going to,
win you, Know AND i love. Basketball i'm not dissing that.
Sport it's, wonderful you, know but it's much. Harder you,
know you can make one, shot you can have one
shot on target the whole, game and if it goes,
in you. Win and if your goalkeeper at the other
end is playing a, blinder then you know you get
(18:08):
lucky and there you're through and anything can. Happen.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
Yeah, OH i don't think it would be that big
of an upset. EITHER i, mean like you, Said urugua
has some really extraordinary. Players, argentina the team isn't as
young as they used to. Be anything could.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
Happen, YEAH i have a lot of hang ups and
reservations About World cup. Winners the next time, around you,
know it's. HARD i think it's hard on, managers especially
if you don't change. Managers you, Know scaloni is going
to trust the players who took him to The Promised
land In, qatar, right so he's gonna keep much of
the same. Team and four years is a long. Time
(18:44):
players get, older players get, slower and there's also a
new talent that you might be. Overlooking and who knows
If argentine's going to be The argentina that we. Think you,
know you think About france in ninety, eight they. Win
in two thousand and, two they don't make it out
of the. Group you, know you think About spain in twenty,
ten they. Win in twenty, fourteen they're illiminated By. Chile
(19:04):
like this stuff happens because it requires a really, cold
calculating and discipline manager to, say you know, what those
guys they took me to The Promised, land But i'm
not don't trust them anymore because they're four years, older
And i've got to bring in new. Blood And i'm
not sure how much scottalone has really done that With.
Artis you, know we're going to talk more about that
when we do a deep dive In, argentina BUT i
(19:25):
don't think it's necessarily a given The uruguay if they
have a great day and by the better they play as,
well that they can't make it.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
Happen, sorry let's go to a break and then we'll
come back and talk about whether or not there's going
to be A World. Cup sounds.
Speaker 2 (19:37):
Good we're back at the away, end And, JOHN i
want to read you this. Note as you, Know i'm
a once and Future New, yorker So i'm on a
bunch of soccer chats with lots of friends with WHOM
i have shared a, pitch and so one of these
(20:01):
someone posted this. Note it says the following, Says hey,
GUYS i wanted to share something that happened. Yesterday two
of our players were detained by ice At peer. Forty
luckily they were able to call me AND i contacted
a police officer who works in the. Area after a
stressful and difficult, situation we were able to get them. Released
please take this as a serious reminder if you ever
go To peer, forty make sure you have your passport with,
you or at least a clear photo of it on your.
(20:23):
PHONE a driver's license or regular idea will not be.
Enough stay safe. Everyone SO i got this note last
week in the midst of the news coming out Of,
minneapolis in the midst of the fatal killing Of Renee
good And Alex, pretty and it struck me that it
was something we should talk. About there's starting to be
discussions In, europe mostly From european, politicians about the possibility
(20:48):
of boycotting THE Us World. Cup there's the, sense THAT
i think, accurately the sense that THE us is not
a welcoming place for outsiders right. Now there's a lot of.
Fear AND i was just you, KNOW i have a
lot of thoughts on. THIS i presume you do, too
AND i just wanted to see what your take was
on all this as you read notes like. That it's,
(21:08):
IMPOSSIBLE i, think to separate football from politics and A
World cup from the political situation The United. States, so,
yeah what do you?
Speaker 1 (21:16):
Think, YEAH i do think it's, impossible BECAUSE i DON'T
i think football has always been. Political we'll talk about
that a little bit actually in my story That i'm
going to tell you about the nineteen ninety Four Caribbean.
Cup but there is no way to separate world football from,
politics certainly because you, know it's an expression of state.
Power that's part of what it, is you, know is
(21:38):
we're bringing together all the countries of the, world or
all the countries of the world that made it this
far into the. Tournament AND i think there's two different
kinds of boycotts that we should be thinking. About one
is a boycott by the, fans where you, KNOW fifa
struggles to sell out its allocation of, however many millions
(22:01):
of seats for however many thousands of dollars per, seat
AND i think that was already going to. HAPPEN i
think a lot of people were already talking about maybe
not coming to The United, states partly because of, cost
probably because of the political. SITUATION i, mean there have
been reports of people having their social media checked at the,
border which is, distressing and CERTAINLY i wouldn't pass that.
(22:25):
Check i'm conscious of the fact that if you AND
i were to play At peer, forty you would be
vastly more likely to be asked for a passport THAN
i would. Be and that is itself fundamentally On, america
in my, Opinion and so we're getting to a place
where it becomes untenable for a lot of people to
(22:45):
visit The United, states including for The World. Cup so
that's one kind of boycott and then there's the other
kind of boycott that people and that's the kind of boycott,
that for, instance Set bladder has been talking.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
About paragon of virtue and. Diplomacy exact, yeah, exactly, Yes Set.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
Yes Step ladder known widely for running international sporting organizations
with the kind of pluck and a plum that you
would expect of a proper. Mobster and he's, saying maybe
people should stay away from The World. Cup AND i
think a lot of people are going to do. That
(23:21):
but then there's the kind of boycott that for the
first time we've been hearing rumblings of among sports, MINISTERS
i think one vice sports minister In germany who said
that perhaps it is time to consider a national boycott
of The World, cup which would be very different and
would be not entirely without. Precedent but, LOOK i, mean
(23:45):
we've had The World cup In, Russia we've had The
World cup in lots of places that are complicated, PLACES
i would, say and they've always managed to have a.
TOURNAMENT i think there is an open. QUESTION i think
a lot can, happen you, know in five. Months If
i've earned anything from the first month of twenty twenty,
six that a lot can happen in a, year AND
(24:08):
i think there is an open question as to whether
there will be a, tournament and that's just the.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
Reality, YEAH i, MEAN i think it's interesting because it's
two sort of things happening at. Once one is what
this note refers, to which Is World cup, related but
also strikes me as kind of core to my experience
as a person who's lived in many Cities United states
and always played soccer Wherever i've. Lived, soccer particularly The United,
(24:35):
states is so, international so. International it's such an immigrant.
Sport so obviously there's always native Born americans playing, obviously
but you, KNOW i remember living In oakland and there was,
like you, know Bush Rod park at certain times was
like those were The ethiopian guys and if you wanted to,
play you had to play with. Them and then there
was like The yemeni game at the park On MacArthur
(24:55):
and there was, like you, KNOW i remember coming upon
a game it was like All tibetan dudes In, berkeley
and you sort of get to know who your neighbors,
are the community that you live in and it's a
really beautiful thing to make connections with people across, cultures across,
languages often across, generations and in every city That i've
(25:15):
lived in The United, states that has been my experience
of like soccer and basically pick up soccer, specifically has
introduced me to some really wonderful people from all over the.
World so IF ice is going after that aspect of
this beautiful, game which is the community that is built around,
(25:36):
it AND i want to give a special shout out
to my team In New, york The Five Borough Football
club where this message was. Shared if that's under, attack
then in a certain, way the spirit of The World
cup is under, attack you. Know so that's one and
the second THING i, think particularly coming from The, europeans
is that we have to remember that it wasn't until relatively,
(25:57):
recently like you, know a few days ago that The
President United states was threatening to take over part Of,
denmark you, know Like greenland is an autonomous region of
The kingdom Of. Denmark So, russia after it Attacked, ukraine
was kicked out OF yuefha. Competitions, right there are No
(26:17):
russian teams in The Champions. League There's, russia who's not
going to be in The World cup because it didn't
they wouldn't let them play qualifiers they weren't in The.
Euros you, know there were consequences for that belligerent foreign
policy and military. Action it stands to reason that that
would happen to The United, states where The United states,
to you, Know god, forbid Attack greenland or take it over,
(26:40):
militarily which for the moment is off the. Table but,
again as you, said anything could happen in five. Months
it's off the table. Now but who knows what whim
will strike our president tomorrow or the day. After SO
i think it's a really, complicated intense, situation AND i
agree with.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
YOU i find.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
It kind of A it saddens me deeply to consider
the possibility of No World. Cup it also negates the
entire point of this show that you AND i are
having so much fun. Producing BUT i don't think we
can ignore that as a. Possibility, yeah, NO i don't
think we can. EITHER i, MEAN i THINK i hope
there's A World.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
CUP i. HOPE i, mean on every, LEVEL i hope
there's A World. Cup but it's hard to blame people
who don't want to come. Here if the requirements involved
in coming to The United states now are such that
you have to swear fealty to a government that's genuinely
without precedent In american, history and it should have consequences
for people who want to visit, here and SO i
think it probably. Will it's very difficult for me to
(27:40):
get my head around this whole. THING i, MEAN i remember,
feeling you, know having very mixed feelings about there being
A World cup In, qatar given the circumstances of visiting
workers foreign nationals living In qatar and working In. Qatar and,
look it's not like there was a time In american,
history you. Know it's Something i've been reflecting on a.
Lot at the end encouragement of a lot of my
(28:01):
friends is that there was no time In american history
when the rule of law was enforced justly or, fairly you.
KNOW i, mean from which trials to lynching's to extra
judicial killing by the government has long been part of
The american. Story But i'm responsible for the parts of
The american story that are happening. Now Like i'm a
participant in those parts of The american, story AND i
(28:23):
don't know the right way, forward, really BUT i know
the right way forward is some form of rejection of
that of those. Ideas you, know you were talking about
The yemeni games and The ethiopian games and The tibetan.
Games here In, indianapolis it's The burmese games and The
syrian And iraqi And afghan. Games and you, know the
joy of playing pick up. FOOTBALL i, KNOW i sometimes
(28:44):
play on the little field artificial terf field that The
butler football plays. On and the joy of playing football
is that you don't have to speak the same, language
you don't have to be from the same, place you
play by the same, Rules and to, me there's something
really lovely about, that and that becomes the point of.
(29:05):
Connection losing that is really hard to. Imagine but when
the thread is that you have to bring your passport
everywhere you, GO i think we do is? That so
it's really it was heartbreaking to read that message and
really really.
Speaker 2 (29:21):
Alarming, yeah for, SURE i was thinking about a former
student of, Mine Sophia mariike Was. Argentine she did a
story for me when she was my student about A
venezuelan team out In queens and it was basically All
venezuelans all, migrants all recently. Arrived everybody's working super, hard you,
know labor, intensive dangerous. Jobs but Every sunday they get
(29:44):
together and play unfortunately Wearing Men city, jerseys but that's.
Okay and it was such an uplifting and inspiring story
of community around. Sport And i've played in leagues like,
that you, know where it's it's not just the, game
it's the everyone's family comes, along everyone's kids. THERE i
used to play in a league out In oakland by
the airport and it was, all you, know these brothers
(30:05):
From guadaljada and cousins and. Uh AND i just got
put on that team and joined the team and loved.
It you. Know we had we had team dinners AND
i was, served you, know a giant goat stew with
the head of the goat pulled out of this giant
uh like literally the biggest Pot i've ever seen in my,
life you, know like a, cauldron like a witch's, cauldron
(30:25):
and the most.
Speaker 1 (30:26):
Delicious Stew i've ever.
Speaker 2 (30:27):
Had after the end of our season and, uh they
pulled the goat's head out of, IT i was, Like,
okay this is. It you, Know i'm gonna get innder
and it was it was. Incredible you, Know i've been
on those, teams And i've been in those, Communities i've
been in those, spaces AND i think it's something we
need to. PROTECT i think it's something that is, valuable
not just in terms of, sport but in terms of
the fabric of a nation to create those spaces where
(30:49):
people feel at home as they start making new lives
in their adopted. Countries So i'm all for protecting pickup
soccer and what it.
Speaker 1 (30:58):
Means i'd like to, close IF i, can And daniel
by quoting your favorite, President Ronald, reagan uh, huh go,
ahead who said that you can move To france and
it's hard to become A, frenchman and you can move
To england and it's hard to become An. Englishman but
the only way to Become american is to move To
america and become An. American and like that's been the
(31:20):
story for a long. TIME i hate the idea of losing.
That and diversity has you, know always been a strength
of The american, story and the failure to acknowledge that
has always been a great weakness in The american. Story
so those things have been intentioned for a very long
(31:41):
time in the history of this, country and right now
what's ascendant is on the wrong side of. HISTORY i
think it'll be.
Speaker 2 (31:50):
INTERESTING i think you're going to do the deep dive
in THE, us BUT i Think i'm going to just
put that out as a. Question in ninety, eight When
france won The World, cup one big part of the
story was how multiracial and multicultural the national team was
and how it represented a New, france and et, cetera et.
Cetera The United states team is equally you, know it's Very,
(32:11):
latino it's very, diverse AND i wonder to what extent
that the makeup of that team will be a rebuke
to this new narrative of what it means to Be,
american or If puschatino and the boys will sort of
prefer to stay quiet about all. THIS i really wonder
(32:32):
at what point a prominent athlete is going to say
something we. Did i'm, SORRY i should say that we
did have lots OF nba stars for the T wolves
and other other, players who, are you, know commenting on
The minnesota. Situation So i'm NOT i DON'T i don't
want to say or imply there's been no voices out.
Speaker 1 (32:49):
There BUT i wonder the national.
Speaker 2 (32:51):
Team you, know it's one thing to represent a, city
it's nothing to represent a, nation and the very idea
of a nation when you put on that jersey is in.
Play SO i wonder if any of the players are
going to say.
Speaker 1 (33:01):
Something, yeah it'll be. INTERESTING i, MEAN i think it's
a tough it's a tough position to be, in to
be an athlete with a lot of. CELEBRITY i don't
envy that, position AND i don't really buy the argument,
that you, know everyone has a responsibility to speak about.
Everything LIKE i remember When Muhammad ali. Died someone On
(33:23):
twitter was, like why aren't you speaking up About Muhammad ali's?
Death AND i was, LIKE i don't, Know i'm just
processing it, Personally LIKE i don't have to comment on
every you, Know i'm not The New York, Times LIKE
i don't write. Obituaries AND i understand, that like people
feel pressure to speak up on things they may not
be experts in or. Whatever BUT i do think that
(33:44):
being able to Reflect america back to itself is very
valuable AND i think that OUR i hope our national
team players will be able to do. That In june
and hopefully also In, july.
Speaker 2 (34:02):
Maybe In july early, week at least in Early, july the, early,
early earliest day Of.
Speaker 1 (34:10):
July, yeah, yeah we got a. BREAK i just want
to SAY i have very mixed feelings about that wrong
with breaking, quote BECAUSE i do think you can move
To france and Become. FRENCH i reject the idea that that's.
IMPOSSIBLE i, mean just look At George. Clooney he did. It,
yeah he did. It all, Right now we're going to
take a, break all, Right, DANIEL i am so excited
(34:40):
to tell you this story of the most bonkers football
GAME i never. Saw it's nineteen ninety, four the year
that we went to The World cup. Together by the, way,
Update daniel AND i did not go to The World cup.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
TOGETHER i don't know why we had to get fact
checked on this WHEN i CLEARLY i was pretty adamant
about the fact THAT i wasn't at that. Game but it's.
Speaker 1 (35:03):
Fine, yeah BUT i didn't believe. YOU i, do, however
believe the army of witnesses that have emerged since our
first episode. Aired so several of our friends from high,
school our listeners to this, Podcast hello, everybody thank, you
and two of them our Friends clay And neil wrote
in to, say in, fact they were with me at
(35:27):
That World cup game and you were not, there SO
i thought it was you And. Sean it was Actually
clay And. Neil to be fair to, Me clay And
neil are very similar To daniel And. Sean they were
all friends in high. School if they could have been
any of, them basically interchangeable. Characters, okay so it's nice.
Speaker 2 (35:48):
TO i just just, say, Great i'm glad THAT i
thought we're going to bring your father on to judicate.
Speaker 1 (35:54):
This my dad also offered to be a guest on the,
podcast which would be fun. Regardless but he was also,
like it Was clay And. Neil don't you? Remember AND i.
Didn't it was the. Answer the memory is a funny.
Thing so it's nineteen ninety, four It's, january and you'll
Recall daniel that like before the Big World, cup there
is often a sort of mini tournament that, winter or
(36:15):
at least there used to, be like they used to
DO i think The Gold cup in The United states
maybe a year, earlier.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
Or The Confederation's cup they. Do, yeah, yeah something like.
Speaker 1 (36:24):
That, yeah some weird. Cup this was The Caribbean. Cup
it was sponsored By shell because football has always been
political and has always had an oil, problem so it
was called The Shell. Cup and it's just like any
other international soccer. Tournament to get to the actual, tournament
you have to qualify for the. Tournament so like you
start out with two hundred and sixteen nations or, whatever
(36:45):
you end up with forty eight going to The World
cup in The Caribbean. Cup in The Shell, cup you
started out with Every caribbean nation, participating but only a
certain number got to go to the actual final. Tournament
to get to that final, tournament barbe had to Play.
Granada and the situation was at once extremely simple and extremely.
(37:06):
Complex so let me walk you through. It If barbados
wins by two, goals they move on to the. Finals
any other result a, tie winning by one, goal losing
by seventeen, Goals granada goes. Forward So barbados has to
win by two. Goals this is to qualify for the.
Tournament this is to qualify for the finals of the.
(37:26):
Tournament oh for the finals of the. Tournament oh, no, no,
no for the. Tournament to qualify for the. Tournament it
was called the, finals but it was to qualify for the.
Speaker 2 (37:33):
Tournament that's brilliantly.
Speaker 1 (37:35):
Confusing got it, Following, well it only gets worse from.
There and you also recall that in nineteen ninety FOUR
fifa instituted this wonderful thing called golden. Goal remember golden.
GOAL i love golden. GOAL i love golden goal. Too
we should bring it.
Speaker 2 (37:49):
Back it's so, dramatic it's so. Dramatic.
Speaker 1 (37:53):
Yeah, so golden goal is if a game is tied
at the end of ninety, minutes it goes to thirty
minutes of extra, time and at any point in that thirty,
minutes if a team, scores the game is. Over golden.
Goal it's a great. Rule it's like a walk off home,
run you, know like exactly every moment is fraught with
the potential for glory or. Disaster but at this particular,
(38:17):
tournament golden goals were for some reason worth two. Goals
so if you tie one to one and you scored
a golden, goal you won three to. One, okay you
can probably start to see where this is. Going, YEAH
i love. It. Okay barbados is up in the second
half two, nil which is the amount they have to win,
(38:38):
by but Then grenada scores a goal so it's two to.
One grenada scores in the eighty third, minute they only
have like seven minutes. Left barbados only has like seven
minutes left to try to find a second. Goal grenada
goes into a complete park the bus, situation total, defense
and eventually The barbados players realize there's no way they're
going to score in the last five minutes of this,
(38:58):
game but if they can take the game to extra,
time then they can score a golden, goal which is
worth two, goals and then they can win by two
and proceed to the. Tournament. Wow so What barbados does
is they intentionally score an own goal to make it,
tied and then for the last three minutes of the,
game All grenada has to do is score a goal
(39:22):
at either end of the. Pitch it doesn't matter if
they score an own goal or if they score a
goal Against. Barbados any goal will work because they either
lose by one or they win by, one in which
case they move forward to the end of the to the. Tournament. Right,
So grenada is out there desperately trying to score a,
goal not only on The barbados, goal but also on their. Goal,
(39:45):
Meanwhile barbados is having to guard both goals at the same,
time which they are able to do successfully for five,
minutes sending the game into extra, time Where grenadas loses
the game by two goals Because barbados scores a golden
goal that is worth two, goals And barbados goes to
the tournament where promptly they.
Speaker 2 (40:04):
Lose, Wow so CAN i jump in. Here one of
the things that you one of the ways you train
in like you, know kiddie soccer sometimes is that you'll
have to defend two, goals or sometimes there'll be a
triangular goal and the defense has to to sort of
constantly move, around and The office of trained the offense
to sort of switch sides and try to score from different.
(40:26):
Angles SO i just would love to see video Of
barbados trying to defend both goals and sort of, like,
uh you know which which? Way you, know that's a
lot of, running you. Know so you have your strikers
defending The grenada goal and your defenders defending your own.
Speaker 1 (40:44):
GOAL i think you go with a classic five to five.
Formation five guys defending one goal and if five guys
defending the. Other, right five zero five classic five zero? Five, yeah?
Speaker 2 (40:56):
Right oh my.
Speaker 1 (40:57):
Gosh and so there is video of. This, unfortunately there
is not video of the chaotic minutes When barbados was
defending both of their, goals but there is, video and
you can imagine The grenaden players and coaches really felt
that this was an, injustice really felt this was fundamentally
against the rules of the game For barbados to intentionally
(41:19):
score an own goal and then get two goals from
scoring one.
Speaker 2 (41:22):
Goal, YEAH i, MEAN i think they're.
Speaker 1 (41:25):
RIGHT i think they're. Right it's just a reminder that
there are often unintended consequences in football and, Elsewhere, johnny were.
Speaker 2 (41:33):
The intended consequences of making adding a two point goal
that doesn't make any sense. WHATSOEVER i, MEAN i would
love someone to sort of sit down and explain, Me,
oh let's add a three point line to this. Soccer oh,
man that reminds. Me, ACTUALLY i once played an indoor
tournament and it was one of those WHERE i signed.
UP i was put on a team With rando's and
it was a indoor soccer on one of those like
(41:55):
hockey rink style.
Speaker 1 (41:56):
Pitches oh, yeah, Yeah i've played.
Speaker 2 (41:58):
There, Yeah and they had a if you took a
shot from outside the hockey. Area it counted for. Two oh, wow,
yeah WHICH i MEAN i should say something about proven soccer.
Culture if you don't walk the ball into the, net
it's really not worth, celebrating you, know like like we
are a, team we over. Elaborate if you play pick
(42:21):
up In, lima it's like ping ping ping ping ping little.
Speaker 1 (42:23):
Touches it's so.
Speaker 2 (42:24):
Cute and then you, know one, time we'm playing with
my cousins AND i took a shot from like sixteen.
Yards it went, in And remer looked at me, like
who do you think you? Are how do you think you?
Are Roberto carlos like what's your?
Speaker 1 (42:38):
Problem?
Speaker 2 (42:39):
Man and SO i felt like kind of personally offended
by this. Rule and ALSO i didn't really sort of
vibe with my. Teammates we, lost, like you, know eighteen
to six or something ridiculous like, that AND i probably
quit the team and looked for another, league BUT i just.
Didn't the two point golden goal is. INSANE i WONDER
(42:59):
i would love to be at the committee note the
meeting notes from that the day they decided to, like
oh let's try something to let's.
Speaker 1 (43:05):
Innovate you, Know i'm Sure sep ladder was. THERE i
played indoor soccer in my, thirties AND i remember one
time towards the end of my, career a guy kept,
saying why do you keep fouling? Me BECAUSE i would
pull him down as he ran past. Me AND i,
said because you're you're faster THAN i. Am, yeah and
(43:26):
those are the. Rules, yeah there's a couple things about.
THAT i want to just latch onto the word. Career,
yeah it was a Career, daniel lastly from kindergarten to eighth,
grade and then it's kind of struck up again in
my late, twenties and then it ended around the age
of thirty.
Speaker 2 (43:44):
Six, okay all, right all, right all, right that's. Fair
and then the, YEAH i mean that that's.
Speaker 1 (43:52):
Good that's.
Speaker 2 (43:52):
Good I've i've also had a career that, is you,
know coming to the. End AND i do sort of
think of it, THAT i, mean the rules are the,
rules and you, know just because someone's just because they
don't like you being pulled, down it's not their job
to judicate. That that's what the ref is. For, Yeah
AND i was reminded of this. Recently WAS i used
(44:15):
to play on a team out in The bayry called
left WING, fc AND i was reminded by a friend
of a particularly rousing team. TALK i gave it a
halftime of one of these games where we'd been chasing
around this other team that had this incredible player who
was just running us. Ragged and APPARENTLY i told the,
team my, teammates you, know this guy was just killing.
(44:36):
US i was, like don't, worry, guys he won't be so.
Fast in fifteen. Years we'll get any. Now, Yeah AND
i said, this you, know got imagine me saying, this
like out of, breath and you know, What it's probably
been fifteen, years And i'm sure he's still faster Than
he's faster than, you for, sure for. Sure, Yeah and
(45:00):
you're faster THAN i. Am that's just the way things.
Speaker 1 (45:02):
Are. Man we gotta we gotta lean into what skills we.
Have and the SKILL i had was always THAT i
wanted it very. BADLY i didn't have any talent for,
it But god DID i want. It so This World
Cup daniel will sadly not feature golden, goal nor will
it feature this incredible rule where a golden goal is
(45:24):
worth two.
Speaker 2 (45:24):
Goals it, won't nor will there be a three point
line or a laying. Violation So, JOHN i want to
highlight something for our. Listeners we now have an email,
address which is away And pod at gmail dot com
where you can send us questions or stories or opinions
(45:48):
or photos of your you, know little league soccer team
or whatever you, want and we'll try to get some
of your stories on the.
Speaker 1 (45:56):
Air so again it's a way end. Pod, also please
send us all your photographs of you in nineteen ninety
four or nineteen ninety six to go along with the
photograph That, daniel without my, permission shared of me in
nineteen ninety six On, instagram.
Speaker 2 (46:12):
Or send photos of eBay links Where john could get
The yaegermeister. Shirt but he's wearing in that. PHOTO i,
Mean i'm.
Speaker 1 (46:21):
Wearing A yeagermeister. Shirt i'm also wearing a backwards baseball,
cap which is so. Cringey And i'm sure that in
nineteen ninety six it. Wasn't but like NOW i look
at that kid And i'm, like oh my, god AND
i have to, Say, daniel thank you for loving me,
then BECAUSE i know it wasn't. Easy, sean thank you
for loving me? THEN i know it was all my, Goodness,
(46:41):
wow Rousing end to. This, SORRY i just wanted TO
i wanted to get a little emotional here at the
end of the. Pod but thanks to everybody for. Listening
we're very very grateful to be with. You, yeah absolutely,
absolutely las of love to, You.
Speaker 2 (46:53):
JOHN i want to thank our Producer Sean, Titane Kurt.
GARREN i also want to thank my Son, eliseo who
is serving as a kind of editor on the, show
because WHEN i get the links From kurt for the
mixes of.
Speaker 1 (47:06):
These, EPISODES i give them To Eddy sale and he.
Speaker 2 (47:10):
Listens to me and tells me if it's funny or.
Speaker 1 (47:11):
Not so thank You.
Speaker 2 (47:12):
Eddie so all, right thanks so, Much, John thanks everybody for.
Speaker 1 (47:15):
Listening we'll see you next. Week
Welcome to the Away and I'm John Green.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
I'm Danian Alercon. How are you doing, John, I'm.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Doing all right. It's good to be with you. I'm
excited to do our first deep dive into a national
football team.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Oh my god, me too. I had a lot of
fun preparing this a lot. We're gonna do Uruguay today.
I'm gonna do Uruguay.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
Just I've been just.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Some ground rules maybe or just ground invitations. I'll talk,
but feel free to rupt me at any time with
questions that I may or I will answer. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So this is the way, and everyone knows it's a
soccer podcast. We're building up to the World Cup and
we're gonna spend a lot of time in the show
going deep onto you know, different national teams. I'm gonna
start today with Uruguay. I have to thank my friend
(00:48):
and colleague Bruno, who's Uruguayan. You may know I know,
you know John. Listeners may know I run another podcast
company called Studios. Bruno is like me, a soccer obsessive
and he's not the only one on the team. But
I called him up because I wanted to talk about
Uruguay and he's based in Montevideo and he's a crazy
(01:10):
soccer fan like we are. So I'm going to annoy
all of my Uruguayan friends by saying that. In order
underson Uruguay, we got to start by talking about an Argentine.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
Oh is that very controversial. That's super controversial. I imagine
it is because of the the soccer history, if not
anything else geopolitical.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Yeah, I mean, I think you know, Uruguay is a
very small country relative to Argentina.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
You're annoying, You're Uruguayan friends more now, Yeah, no, no.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
But it's it's I think there's there's a kind of
tension there because they don't like to be considered a
small country in soccer terms. They're punching way above their
weight historically. But there's always a rivalry with your neighbors,
you know. So I want to start with your guy
talking about this Argentine and I want to talk about
someone that you have certainly heard of John and I'm
talking about Marcelo Bielza. Also. Yeah, I have a long
(02:00):
standing I don't want to say love affair, but a
deep admiration for this totally crotchety lunatic. I even pitched
the new Yorker profile of him, which you know, weirdly,
I never heard back about this, but I read.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
I find me my favorite Marcello Biels's story real quick, Yes,
go ahead. So he's such a football obsessive that he
had the line painted from his house to the Leeds
Football Stadium so he didn't have to look up.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Yeah, and he would ride on his bike with his
with his uh so so he and his assistant coach
could prepare for the that day's training without having to
worry about getting lost. That was what I heard.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
I love that story.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Yes, that says a lot about who he is for
those of us, for the listeners who might don't really
know a lot more or a lot about yet Sam
and I'm talking to our producer Sean. Obviously, modern football
would not be the same without him. Perhaps the most
famous example is that Pep Guardiola, you know, generally regarded
as the greatest coach of his generation. When he took
the Barcelona job. The first thing he did when he
(02:58):
was he was given the job was to go visit
Bieza and spent you know, two days just sort of
picking his brain to sort of understand how he could
modernize his tactics so he's like a coach's coach, a
manager's manager. And I want to give an example that again,
this is going to annoy my Yuruguay and friends because
this is not Uruguay specific, but a game that you
certainly remember. John It says possibly one of his greatest
(03:21):
compstruments as a coach was to bring Leeds United back
up to the Premier League. So they're promoted, first game back.
Who do they have to play but Liverpool at anfield
and newly proted side playing the champions that year, and
Liverpool scores very early in the game, leads ties it up,
Liverpool scores again, leads ties it up, Liverpool scores for
(03:43):
a third time, leads ties again, and at this point
it's like seventieth minute and a newly proted team against
the champions away from home. Like a normal human being,
a normal manager would just take the draw, like shut
it down and just play out the game. But Bearsa
doesn't do that because he's a purist and he's a dogmatic, obsessive.
(04:06):
And I pulled out this quote from a journalist named
Seki Fernandez Moree when I interviewed him when I was
literally pitching this profile to the New Yorker and he said,
because he doesn't care how many goals get scored on you.
He only cares about scoring one goal more than his rival, right,
And so he kept attacking at anfield away from home
(04:27):
Newly from decided first game of the season, and of
course the inevitable happened, which is Liverpool scored and Leads
lost that season. That first season that Bissa was in
the Premier League with Leeds United, he you get headlines
like this one. Bersa says Leads will not abandon playing
style after six' to two thrashing A Man. United so
(04:47):
he's like, absolutely just like this is this is the
Hill i'm going to die on attacking football, always AND
i should mention, that as crazy as it, sounds they
didn't just stay. Up they finished ninth that, season which
is firmly promoted side. Incredible but of Course bielsa was
sacked the next, season as he always. Is bissa is
(05:07):
the kind of coach who wears his teams. Down he
always starts great and always the wheels always come. Off
so that's the kind of. BACKSTORY a couple other examples of.
This he. Managed his first manager job was At messi's first,
Club Noel's Old boys In. Argentina his other great achievement
was he Took Athletic club of Bill bao to two
(05:28):
Finals Europa league And cope Deel.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
Re An Athletic club of Bill boo is an unusual
football club in that they can only Play basque players by,
tradition and so they have an incredibly small pool of
players to draw. From and yet they had this astonishing
success With, bielsa.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
Yes where they made it to two finals and they
lost both of them through nothing To barcelona and To.
Athletico so he's kind of known In argentina as this
lovable philosopher king mad scientist who kind of doesn't win
he gets.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
Close biels is one of those guys, who if he
had Eleven bielsa's he would win every. Game but he. Does,
yes he has eleven regular football, players.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
Right he demands a level of obsession like that a
lot of players can't maintain energy levels that players can't.
Maintain so he uh takes Over uruguay the national. Team
Now i'm getting to the Interesting uruguay part of the.
Story he takes Over uruguay at this moment of kind
of generational change players Like Forlan, muslera they're, Out cavani's you,
(06:37):
know on his way. Out suatz is on his last.
KNEE i wouldn't say last, LEG i would say last.
Knee and he brings in some new, players but he
doesn't actually bring in any of the youngsters who won
the twenty twenty Three under Twenty World. Cup there's actually
zero of those players on the national team. Now and
he's kind of known for having a short. Bench you,
know he has his players he, trusts and he doesn't
bring in other. Players but he manages this generational shit pretty.
(07:00):
Well there, is, however a point of, inflection AND i
want to point this. Out before The copamerica twenty twenty,
Four uruguay won a possible thirteen points out of a
possible eighteen points In South american, qualifiers. Right that included
victories Over argentina And, brazil the first time THAT i
had ever Beaten brazil in qualifying. Matches so this is, huge,
(07:23):
right and thirteen out of eighteen points is pretty damn. Good,
however After Copa, America uruguay won only fifteen out of
a possible thirty six, points so they really fell off
THE biersa effect happened, NOW i think to understand, this
And bruno explained this to. Me he's, like let's let's
get into what happened At. Copamedica you might remember those, Scenes,
(07:47):
john BECAUSE i think he was one of your players
at that, Point Darwin nunyaz running into the stands to
Fight colombian fans in the semifinals of The.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
Copamenica he did not cover himself in glory that.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
Day he, didn't nor did The colombian. Fans to be,
fair it was a really unpleasant. Situation it was a
very complicated situation where nobody behaved. Well but THAT i
think reflected most poorly on the organizers of the event,
itself because they shouldn't have had the family members of
the players anywhere near any place that could have put
(08:19):
them in. Danger the players obviously can't go into the
stands and fight. Fans the fans obviously can't throw things
at the players or threaten people from another. TEAM i,
mean it's, like it was all kinds of nasty and unpleasant. Scenes,
honestly SCENES i think THAT i hope that they've ironed
out for The World cup to, come but it was
it was a bad. Scene so, afterwards several players are,
(08:39):
sanctioned AND i don't know. HOW i don't have all
the top my. Head how many players were banned from certain.
GAMES i Know Darwin juniez was banned from a, few
but just as significantly after That copamedica, debacle ALTHOUGH i should,
say let me parenthetically BEFORE i get to, That bruno
says that it was actually.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
A pretty Good.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
Copamedica making it to the semifinals was not a bad
result at all For, uruguay so he wasn't upset about
what happened on the.
Speaker 1 (09:04):
Field he.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
Was What bruno was telling me was kind of like
the knock on effects of the, chaos and one of
them was that Swat is kind officially retired from the
national team and then gave an interview where he kind
of split the. Team he basically talked bad About, bieza he,
said doesn't listen to the, players people don't like, him
and the team kind of broke up after. That and you,
(09:26):
know the results speak for, themselves and Although uruguay finishes
fourth on twenty eight, points they're you, Know paraguay also
has twenty eight. Points in, fact you could kind of
break Down South american qualifiers Into argentina in one, group
all on zone because they were way ahead of the,
pack and then everyone from place two to, six which Is, Ecuador, Columbia, Uruguay,
(09:50):
Brazil paraguay all twenty nine twenty eight, Points bolivia In
venezuela fighting it out for the last spot in the intercontinental,
qualifiers and Then bruni fighting it out to see who's the.
Worst so, sorry but basically what you see after The
copaminica Is uruguay nos diving and the culmination of all,
(10:12):
this according To bruno and according to lots of people
in the media and then turn of THE us, media
was the five to one loss in a friendly to
The United. States so in THE us that was interpreted
as sort of Like pochettino has finally sort of gotten
his players to. Respond In, uruguay it was kind of
a ratification of trajectory that they'd seen coming that it
(10:34):
was just like this team is. Broken SO i find
that really. FASCINATING i find it totally of a piece
with everything THAT i know About pietresa and the way
his teams fall, apart which honestly doesn't make me like him.
Less he seems to me like a, poetic tragic. Figure
you know you're gonna see him on the sidelines at
The World. Cup he's in his late seventies, now kind
(10:55):
of scowling and like sitting on an upside down, bucket
like staring into the. Distance he's going to give weird
post match press. Conferences it's going to be interesting to
have him. There, Obviously you're guy has some fantastic, players
some individual talents that play on some of the greatest
teams in the, world you, Know, barbrajo. Etc like really great,
players et.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
Cetera but.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
Something psychically broke with that, team according To bruno there At,
copaminica AND i find those inflection points really. Interesting What
biezza is historically not known for is recovering. From like
once he loses a locker, room it's. Gone it's. Gone
he doesn't get them back because he's such a weirdly,
polarizing you, know complicated. Personality he's not a warm and fuzzy.
(11:42):
Manager you, know.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
He doesn't hug you like you're going clop hugs.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
You he does not hug you like you're in clop hugs.
You he's he's got the kind OF i woun't want
to say he doesn't he lacks, charisma BECAUSE i think's
quite charismatic in the way of like a weird. Professor
but it's like getting a hug from a chain link,
fence you, know it's like not it's not gonna feel
you make you feel warm and. Fuzzy SO i Asked, bruno,
like so what do you expect to? Happen and he
says something really. Interesting bruno was, like, well every you,
(12:08):
know we work at a narrative podcast, company so everyone
on the team speaks in. Narrative But bruno said something
THAT i really, liked and he, said, like every team
has a story to, write AND i don't know what
your guy's story is in This World, cup but the
story that he would, like the story that would make him,
satisfied is to get second place out of the, group
(12:30):
to Face argentina and to eliminate them elimin at. Campion
that's what he. Said that's what he, said Eliminat campion
and if that, happens whatever happens after that is, fine no.
Problem so just knock Out argentina and everything's. Good.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
NOW i want to finish with this BECAUSE i think
it's so. Great can we cut in actually and Ask
SEAN a. Question, yeah, Hey, sean what's up. Guys this
is our Producer sean also a friend of ours from high. School,
sean what do you think gets you a star on your?
Jersey you know how some teams have stars on their,
jersey LIKE i Think brazil has. Five other teams have
like one or. None what do you think it's your
(13:07):
star on the? Jersey And i'll confess this is a
bit of a trick. QUESTION i would.
Speaker 3 (13:15):
You've either MAYBE, mvp like did they have MVPs if
you were you, know do DID?
Speaker 1 (13:22):
Mvp or?
Speaker 3 (13:23):
MAYBE i guess everyone on the team has the. Stars
so you've won a certain, championship then you nailed.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
It yeah a. Star there you. Go you've nailed. It
took it two, swings, man.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
But you got.
Speaker 2 (13:33):
It. Nice, So sean And, JOHN i want to tell
you about the four stars, controversy Which, bruno AS i,
mentioned is an obsessive like. Me he actually went To
zurich to THE fifa museum and to him it's not
controversial at. All he's, like it's in the, museum this
is totally. Legit but you're going hosted the First World
(13:53):
cup in nineteen thirty and, one right then they Beat
brazil in nineteen fifty at the Famous markanasso where they
Beat brazil In brazil and one nothing for their what
would you would think would be their second.
Speaker 1 (14:11):
Star because they won their Second World, cup their second one, cup,
right but they wear four, stars and the question is.
Why so the reasoning is very simple that before there
was A World, cup but ONCE fifa had already been,
CREATED fifa organized the soccer portion of The olympics and
so those are RECOGNIZED Fifa World. Championships the nineteen twenty
(14:35):
Four olympics they Beat argentina in The olympic. Final the
Following World cup they Beat holland or The netherlands in
The olympic final nineteen twenty. Eight then they won in
nineteen thirty their third, star and they won a nineteen
fifty their four. Star so they're the only team that
has four stars that are not sort of strictly, Speaking
(14:57):
World cup, stars, right four, stars but Two World cups.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
Four, stars but Two World cups. Exactly What bruno said
to me THAT i thought was really. Interesting he's, like
if we had lost one of those, finals then we
would have an ally in. This But uruguay at a
time when soccer was an amateur. Sport, Sure uruguay was a,
monster you, know and you can imagine if The netherlands
had won in nineteen twenty eight they would obviously put
(15:23):
that star on their damn. Jersey In argentina too would
love to, have you, know four stars instead of, three
but Since uruguay won them both then they have no.
Allies and so somebody complained BEFORE i believe the twenty
Eighteen World, cup And bruno insists that it was Some
argentine and there was briefly a controversy THAT fifa squashed
(15:44):
And uruguay's allowed officially to have four, stars which is
why they will have four stars when the tournament starts In. June,
wow that's, it any Questions.
Speaker 3 (15:54):
Uruguay so all, right they're In GROUP h, Right they're
playing Against Saudi Arabia, verde who is obviously a massive
UNDERDOG i would imagine in this, group and Then, spain
WHO i would imagine as a perennial favorite to. Advance
so that seems very feasible that they would get out
of the group in, yes second, place With spain being
(16:17):
the ones who would ultimately win the. Group is that
kind of how you guys are seeing this.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
Shakeout, YEAH i, Mean i'm going to do a deep
dive Into Cape perty later on in the season before
The World cup, starts And i'm super. EXCITED i have
a close friend From Cape, barty AND i want to
see them do. WELL i think there's only one way
to look at first and second, place which Is spain And.
Uruguay if you're why were not to get out of this,
group that would be a, catastrophe a Very bielsen. Catastrophe,
(16:45):
actually he famously flopped with the two thousand and Two
Argentina World cup, team so it wouldn't Be it would
be of a piece with his kind of tragic career
in some, ways like never has there been someone so
successful who's been so. Successful but, yeah the money is
On spain, Winning uruguay getting, second and Then uruguay would
(17:06):
face first place Of argentina', group which would probably Be,
argentina and that's When bruno's dreams come true or.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
Not So bruno's dream is very, realistic except for the
part Where uruguay Beats, argentina WHICH i think is not impossible,
certainly but a.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
CHALLENGE i, mean, LOOK i think that's the beauty about.
Knockouts is that in ninety, minutes anything can, happen, RIGHT
i mean we've all seen those games where you, know
the goalie plays a blinder and then someone scuffs the
ball in off their shin at the other, end and you,
know the team that had twenty two shots on target somehow.
(17:39):
Loses you, know you know those kinds Of that's one
of the beauties of this.
Speaker 1 (17:46):
Sport you.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
Know in, basketball a team that's hot is always going to,
win you, Know AND i love. Basketball i'm not dissing that.
Sport it's, wonderful you, know but it's much. Harder you,
know you can make one, shot you can have one
shot on target the whole, game and if it goes,
in you. Win and if your goalkeeper at the other
end is playing a, blinder then you know you get
(18:08):
lucky and there you're through and anything can. Happen.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
Yeah, OH i don't think it would be that big
of an upset. EITHER i, mean like you, Said urugua
has some really extraordinary. Players, argentina the team isn't as
young as they used to. Be anything could.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
Happen, YEAH i have a lot of hang ups and
reservations About World cup. Winners the next time, around you,
know it's. HARD i think it's hard on, managers especially
if you don't change. Managers you, Know scaloni is going
to trust the players who took him to The Promised
land In, qatar, right so he's gonna keep much of
the same. Team and four years is a long. Time
(18:44):
players get, older players get, slower and there's also a
new talent that you might be. Overlooking and who knows
If argentine's going to be The argentina that we. Think you,
know you think About france in ninety, eight they. Win
in two thousand and, two they don't make it out
of the. Group you, know you think About spain in twenty,
ten they. Win in twenty, fourteen they're illiminated By. Chile
(19:04):
like this stuff happens because it requires a really, cold
calculating and discipline manager to, say you know, what those
guys they took me to The Promised, land But i'm
not don't trust them anymore because they're four years, older
And i've got to bring in new. Blood And i'm
not sure how much scottalone has really done that With.
Artis you, know we're going to talk more about that
when we do a deep dive In, argentina BUT i
(19:25):
don't think it's necessarily a given The uruguay if they
have a great day and by the better they play as,
well that they can't make it.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
Happen, sorry let's go to a break and then we'll
come back and talk about whether or not there's going
to be A World. Cup sounds.
Speaker 2 (19:37):
Good we're back at the away, end And, JOHN i
want to read you this. Note as you, Know i'm
a once and Future New, yorker So i'm on a
bunch of soccer chats with lots of friends with WHOM
i have shared a, pitch and so one of these
(20:01):
someone posted this. Note it says the following, Says hey,
GUYS i wanted to share something that happened. Yesterday two
of our players were detained by ice At peer. Forty
luckily they were able to call me AND i contacted
a police officer who works in the. Area after a
stressful and difficult, situation we were able to get them. Released
please take this as a serious reminder if you ever
go To peer, forty make sure you have your passport with,
you or at least a clear photo of it on your.
(20:23):
PHONE a driver's license or regular idea will not be.
Enough stay safe. Everyone SO i got this note last
week in the midst of the news coming out Of,
minneapolis in the midst of the fatal killing Of Renee
good And Alex, pretty and it struck me that it
was something we should talk. About there's starting to be
discussions In, europe mostly From european, politicians about the possibility
(20:48):
of boycotting THE Us World. Cup there's the, sense THAT
i think, accurately the sense that THE us is not
a welcoming place for outsiders right. Now there's a lot of.
Fear AND i was just you, KNOW i have a
lot of thoughts on. THIS i presume you do, too
AND i just wanted to see what your take was
on all this as you read notes like. That it's,
(21:08):
IMPOSSIBLE i, think to separate football from politics and A
World cup from the political situation The United. States, so,
yeah what do you?
Speaker 1 (21:16):
Think, YEAH i do think it's, impossible BECAUSE i DON'T
i think football has always been. Political we'll talk about
that a little bit actually in my story That i'm
going to tell you about the nineteen ninety Four Caribbean.
Cup but there is no way to separate world football from,
politics certainly because you, know it's an expression of state.
Power that's part of what it, is you, know is
(21:38):
we're bringing together all the countries of the, world or
all the countries of the world that made it this
far into the. Tournament AND i think there's two different
kinds of boycotts that we should be thinking. About one
is a boycott by the, fans where you, KNOW fifa
struggles to sell out its allocation of, however many millions
(22:01):
of seats for however many thousands of dollars per, seat
AND i think that was already going to. HAPPEN i
think a lot of people were already talking about maybe
not coming to The United, states partly because of, cost
probably because of the political. SITUATION i, mean there have
been reports of people having their social media checked at the,
border which is, distressing and CERTAINLY i wouldn't pass that.
(22:25):
Check i'm conscious of the fact that if you AND
i were to play At peer, forty you would be
vastly more likely to be asked for a passport THAN
i would. Be and that is itself fundamentally On, america
in my, Opinion and so we're getting to a place
where it becomes untenable for a lot of people to
(22:45):
visit The United, states including for The World. Cup so
that's one kind of boycott and then there's the other
kind of boycott that people and that's the kind of boycott,
that for, instance Set bladder has been talking.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
About paragon of virtue and. Diplomacy exact, yeah, exactly, Yes Set.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
Yes Step ladder known widely for running international sporting organizations
with the kind of pluck and a plum that you
would expect of a proper. Mobster and he's, saying maybe
people should stay away from The World. Cup AND i
think a lot of people are going to do. That
(23:21):
but then there's the kind of boycott that for the
first time we've been hearing rumblings of among sports, MINISTERS
i think one vice sports minister In germany who said
that perhaps it is time to consider a national boycott
of The World, cup which would be very different and
would be not entirely without. Precedent but, LOOK i, mean
(23:45):
we've had The World cup In, Russia we've had The
World cup in lots of places that are complicated, PLACES
i would, say and they've always managed to have a.
TOURNAMENT i think there is an open. QUESTION i think
a lot can, happen you, know in five. Months If
i've earned anything from the first month of twenty twenty,
six that a lot can happen in a, year AND
(24:08):
i think there is an open question as to whether
there will be a, tournament and that's just the.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
Reality, YEAH i, MEAN i think it's interesting because it's
two sort of things happening at. Once one is what
this note refers, to which Is World cup, related but
also strikes me as kind of core to my experience
as a person who's lived in many Cities United states
and always played soccer Wherever i've. Lived, soccer particularly The United,
(24:35):
states is so, international so. International it's such an immigrant.
Sport so obviously there's always native Born americans playing, obviously
but you, KNOW i remember living In oakland and there was,
like you, know Bush Rod park at certain times was
like those were The ethiopian guys and if you wanted to,
play you had to play with. Them and then there
was like The yemeni game at the park On MacArthur
(24:55):
and there was, like you, KNOW i remember coming upon
a game it was like All tibetan dudes In, berkeley
and you sort of get to know who your neighbors,
are the community that you live in and it's a
really beautiful thing to make connections with people across, cultures across,
languages often across, generations and in every city That i've
(25:15):
lived in The United, states that has been my experience
of like soccer and basically pick up soccer, specifically has
introduced me to some really wonderful people from all over the.
World so IF ice is going after that aspect of
this beautiful, game which is the community that is built around,
(25:36):
it AND i want to give a special shout out
to my team In New, york The Five Borough Football
club where this message was. Shared if that's under, attack
then in a certain, way the spirit of The World
cup is under, attack you. Know so that's one and
the second THING i, think particularly coming from The, europeans
is that we have to remember that it wasn't until relatively,
(25:57):
recently like you, know a few days ago that The
President United states was threatening to take over part Of,
denmark you, know Like greenland is an autonomous region of
The kingdom Of. Denmark So, russia after it Attacked, ukraine
was kicked out OF yuefha. Competitions, right there are No
(26:17):
russian teams in The Champions. League There's, russia who's not
going to be in The World cup because it didn't
they wouldn't let them play qualifiers they weren't in The.
Euros you, know there were consequences for that belligerent foreign
policy and military. Action it stands to reason that that
would happen to The United, states where The United states,
to you, Know god, forbid Attack greenland or take it over,
(26:40):
militarily which for the moment is off the. Table but,
again as you, said anything could happen in five. Months
it's off the table. Now but who knows what whim
will strike our president tomorrow or the day. After SO
i think it's a really, complicated intense, situation AND i
agree with.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
YOU i find.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
It kind of A it saddens me deeply to consider
the possibility of No World. Cup it also negates the
entire point of this show that you AND i are
having so much fun. Producing BUT i don't think we
can ignore that as a. Possibility, yeah, NO i don't
think we can. EITHER i, MEAN i THINK i hope
there's A World.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
CUP i. HOPE i, mean on every, LEVEL i hope
there's A World. Cup but it's hard to blame people
who don't want to come. Here if the requirements involved
in coming to The United states now are such that
you have to swear fealty to a government that's genuinely
without precedent In american, history and it should have consequences
for people who want to visit, here and SO i
think it probably. Will it's very difficult for me to
(27:40):
get my head around this whole. THING i, MEAN i remember,
feeling you, know having very mixed feelings about there being
A World cup In, qatar given the circumstances of visiting
workers foreign nationals living In qatar and working In. Qatar and,
look it's not like there was a time In american,
history you. Know it's Something i've been reflecting on a.
Lot at the end encouragement of a lot of my
(28:01):
friends is that there was no time In american history
when the rule of law was enforced justly or, fairly you.
KNOW i, mean from which trials to lynching's to extra
judicial killing by the government has long been part of
The american. Story But i'm responsible for the parts of
The american story that are happening. Now Like i'm a
participant in those parts of The american, story AND i
(28:23):
don't know the right way, forward, really BUT i know
the right way forward is some form of rejection of
that of those. Ideas you, know you were talking about
The yemeni games and The ethiopian games and The tibetan.
Games here In, indianapolis it's The burmese games and The
syrian And iraqi And afghan. Games and you, know the
joy of playing pick up. FOOTBALL i, KNOW i sometimes
(28:44):
play on the little field artificial terf field that The
butler football plays. On and the joy of playing football
is that you don't have to speak the same, language
you don't have to be from the same, place you
play by the same, Rules and to, me there's something
really lovely about, that and that becomes the point of.
(29:05):
Connection losing that is really hard to. Imagine but when
the thread is that you have to bring your passport
everywhere you, GO i think we do is? That so
it's really it was heartbreaking to read that message and
really really.
Speaker 2 (29:21):
Alarming, yeah for, SURE i was thinking about a former
student of, Mine Sophia mariike Was. Argentine she did a
story for me when she was my student about A
venezuelan team out In queens and it was basically All
venezuelans all, migrants all recently. Arrived everybody's working super, hard you,
know labor, intensive dangerous. Jobs but Every sunday they get
(29:44):
together and play unfortunately Wearing Men city, jerseys but that's.
Okay and it was such an uplifting and inspiring story
of community around. Sport And i've played in leagues like,
that you, know where it's it's not just the, game
it's the everyone's family comes, along everyone's kids. THERE i
used to play in a league out In oakland by
the airport and it was, all you, know these brothers
(30:05):
From guadaljada and cousins and. Uh AND i just got
put on that team and joined the team and loved.
It you. Know we had we had team dinners AND
i was, served you, know a giant goat stew with
the head of the goat pulled out of this giant
uh like literally the biggest Pot i've ever seen in my,
life you, know like a, cauldron like a witch's, cauldron
(30:25):
and the most.
Speaker 1 (30:26):
Delicious Stew i've ever.
Speaker 2 (30:27):
Had after the end of our season and, uh they
pulled the goat's head out of, IT i was, Like,
okay this is. It you, Know i'm gonna get innder
and it was it was. Incredible you, Know i've been
on those, teams And i've been in those, Communities i've
been in those, spaces AND i think it's something we
need to. PROTECT i think it's something that is, valuable
not just in terms of, sport but in terms of
the fabric of a nation to create those spaces where
(30:49):
people feel at home as they start making new lives
in their adopted. Countries So i'm all for protecting pickup
soccer and what it.
Speaker 1 (30:58):
Means i'd like to, close IF i, can And daniel
by quoting your favorite, President Ronald, reagan uh, huh go,
ahead who said that you can move To france and
it's hard to become A, frenchman and you can move
To england and it's hard to become An. Englishman but
the only way to Become american is to move To
america and become An. American and like that's been the
(31:20):
story for a long. TIME i hate the idea of losing.
That and diversity has you, know always been a strength
of The american, story and the failure to acknowledge that
has always been a great weakness in The american. Story
so those things have been intentioned for a very long
(31:41):
time in the history of this, country and right now
what's ascendant is on the wrong side of. HISTORY i
think it'll be.
Speaker 2 (31:50):
INTERESTING i think you're going to do the deep dive
in THE, us BUT i Think i'm going to just
put that out as a. Question in ninety, eight When
france won The World, cup one big part of the
story was how multiracial and multicultural the national team was
and how it represented a New, france and et, cetera et.
Cetera The United states team is equally you, know it's Very,
(32:11):
latino it's very, diverse AND i wonder to what extent
that the makeup of that team will be a rebuke
to this new narrative of what it means to Be,
american or If puschatino and the boys will sort of
prefer to stay quiet about all. THIS i really wonder
(32:32):
at what point a prominent athlete is going to say
something we. Did i'm, SORRY i should say that we
did have lots OF nba stars for the T wolves
and other other, players who, are you, know commenting on
The minnesota. Situation So i'm NOT i DON'T i don't
want to say or imply there's been no voices out.
Speaker 1 (32:49):
There BUT i wonder the national.
Speaker 2 (32:51):
Team you, know it's one thing to represent a, city
it's nothing to represent a, nation and the very idea
of a nation when you put on that jersey is in.
Play SO i wonder if any of the players are
going to say.
Speaker 1 (33:01):
Something, yeah it'll be. INTERESTING i, MEAN i think it's
a tough it's a tough position to be, in to
be an athlete with a lot of. CELEBRITY i don't
envy that, position AND i don't really buy the argument,
that you, know everyone has a responsibility to speak about.
Everything LIKE i remember When Muhammad ali. Died someone On
(33:23):
twitter was, like why aren't you speaking up About Muhammad ali's?
Death AND i was, LIKE i don't, Know i'm just
processing it, Personally LIKE i don't have to comment on
every you, Know i'm not The New York, Times LIKE
i don't write. Obituaries AND i understand, that like people
feel pressure to speak up on things they may not
be experts in or. Whatever BUT i do think that
(33:44):
being able to Reflect america back to itself is very
valuable AND i think that OUR i hope our national
team players will be able to do. That In june
and hopefully also In, july.
Speaker 2 (34:02):
Maybe In july early, week at least in Early, july the, early,
early earliest day Of.
Speaker 1 (34:10):
July, yeah, yeah we got a. BREAK i just want
to SAY i have very mixed feelings about that wrong
with breaking, quote BECAUSE i do think you can move
To france and Become. FRENCH i reject the idea that that's.
IMPOSSIBLE i, mean just look At George. Clooney he did. It,
yeah he did. It all, Right now we're going to
take a, break all, Right, DANIEL i am so excited
(34:40):
to tell you this story of the most bonkers football
GAME i never. Saw it's nineteen ninety, four the year
that we went to The World cup. Together by the, way,
Update daniel AND i did not go to The World cup.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
TOGETHER i don't know why we had to get fact
checked on this WHEN i CLEARLY i was pretty adamant
about the fact THAT i wasn't at that. Game but it's.
Speaker 1 (35:03):
Fine, yeah BUT i didn't believe. YOU i, do, however
believe the army of witnesses that have emerged since our
first episode. Aired so several of our friends from high,
school our listeners to this, Podcast hello, everybody thank, you
and two of them our Friends clay And neil wrote
in to, say in, fact they were with me at
(35:27):
That World cup game and you were not, there SO
i thought it was you And. Sean it was Actually
clay And. Neil to be fair to, Me clay And
neil are very similar To daniel And. Sean they were
all friends in high. School if they could have been
any of, them basically interchangeable. Characters, okay so it's nice.
Speaker 2 (35:48):
TO i just just, say, Great i'm glad THAT i
thought we're going to bring your father on to judicate.
Speaker 1 (35:54):
This my dad also offered to be a guest on the,
podcast which would be fun. Regardless but he was also,
like it Was clay And. Neil don't you? Remember AND i.
Didn't it was the. Answer the memory is a funny.
Thing so it's nineteen ninety, four It's, january and you'll
Recall daniel that like before the Big World, cup there
is often a sort of mini tournament that, winter or
(36:15):
at least there used to, be like they used to
DO i think The Gold cup in The United states
maybe a year, earlier.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
Or The Confederation's cup they. Do, yeah, yeah something like.
Speaker 1 (36:24):
That, yeah some weird. Cup this was The Caribbean. Cup
it was sponsored By shell because football has always been
political and has always had an oil, problem so it
was called The Shell. Cup and it's just like any
other international soccer. Tournament to get to the actual, tournament
you have to qualify for the. Tournament so like you
start out with two hundred and sixteen nations or, whatever
(36:45):
you end up with forty eight going to The World
cup in The Caribbean. Cup in The Shell, cup you
started out with Every caribbean nation, participating but only a
certain number got to go to the actual final. Tournament
to get to that final, tournament barbe had to Play.
Granada and the situation was at once extremely simple and extremely.
(37:06):
Complex so let me walk you through. It If barbados
wins by two, goals they move on to the. Finals
any other result a, tie winning by one, goal losing
by seventeen, Goals granada goes. Forward So barbados has to
win by two. Goals this is to qualify for the.
Tournament this is to qualify for the finals of the.
(37:26):
Tournament oh for the finals of the. Tournament oh, no, no,
no for the. Tournament to qualify for the. Tournament it
was called the, finals but it was to qualify for the.
Speaker 2 (37:33):
Tournament that's brilliantly.
Speaker 1 (37:35):
Confusing got it, Following, well it only gets worse from.
There and you also recall that in nineteen ninety FOUR
fifa instituted this wonderful thing called golden. Goal remember golden.
GOAL i love golden. GOAL i love golden goal. Too
we should bring it.
Speaker 2 (37:49):
Back it's so, dramatic it's so. Dramatic.
Speaker 1 (37:53):
Yeah, so golden goal is if a game is tied
at the end of ninety, minutes it goes to thirty
minutes of extra, time and at any point in that thirty,
minutes if a team, scores the game is. Over golden.
Goal it's a great. Rule it's like a walk off home,
run you, know like exactly every moment is fraught with
the potential for glory or. Disaster but at this particular,
(38:17):
tournament golden goals were for some reason worth two. Goals
so if you tie one to one and you scored
a golden, goal you won three to. One, okay you
can probably start to see where this is. Going, YEAH
i love. It. Okay barbados is up in the second
half two, nil which is the amount they have to win,
(38:38):
by but Then grenada scores a goal so it's two to.
One grenada scores in the eighty third, minute they only
have like seven minutes. Left barbados only has like seven
minutes left to try to find a second. Goal grenada
goes into a complete park the bus, situation total, defense
and eventually The barbados players realize there's no way they're
going to score in the last five minutes of this,
(38:58):
game but if they can take the game to extra,
time then they can score a golden, goal which is
worth two, goals and then they can win by two
and proceed to the. Tournament. Wow so What barbados does
is they intentionally score an own goal to make it,
tied and then for the last three minutes of the,
game All grenada has to do is score a goal
(39:22):
at either end of the. Pitch it doesn't matter if
they score an own goal or if they score a
goal Against. Barbados any goal will work because they either
lose by one or they win by, one in which
case they move forward to the end of the to the. Tournament. Right,
So grenada is out there desperately trying to score a,
goal not only on The barbados, goal but also on their. Goal,
(39:45):
Meanwhile barbados is having to guard both goals at the same,
time which they are able to do successfully for five,
minutes sending the game into extra, time Where grenadas loses
the game by two goals Because barbados scores a golden
goal that is worth two, goals And barbados goes to
the tournament where promptly they.
Speaker 2 (40:04):
Lose, Wow so CAN i jump in. Here one of
the things that you one of the ways you train
in like you, know kiddie soccer sometimes is that you'll
have to defend two, goals or sometimes there'll be a
triangular goal and the defense has to to sort of
constantly move, around and The office of trained the offense
to sort of switch sides and try to score from different.
(40:26):
Angles SO i just would love to see video Of
barbados trying to defend both goals and sort of, like,
uh you know which which? Way you, know that's a
lot of, running you. Know so you have your strikers
defending The grenada goal and your defenders defending your own.
Speaker 1 (40:44):
GOAL i think you go with a classic five to five.
Formation five guys defending one goal and if five guys
defending the. Other, right five zero five classic five zero? Five, yeah?
Speaker 2 (40:56):
Right oh my.
Speaker 1 (40:57):
Gosh and so there is video of. This, unfortunately there
is not video of the chaotic minutes When barbados was
defending both of their, goals but there is, video and
you can imagine The grenaden players and coaches really felt
that this was an, injustice really felt this was fundamentally
against the rules of the game For barbados to intentionally
(41:19):
score an own goal and then get two goals from
scoring one.
Speaker 2 (41:22):
Goal, YEAH i, MEAN i think they're.
Speaker 1 (41:25):
RIGHT i think they're. Right it's just a reminder that
there are often unintended consequences in football and, Elsewhere, johnny were.
Speaker 2 (41:33):
The intended consequences of making adding a two point goal
that doesn't make any sense. WHATSOEVER i, MEAN i would
love someone to sort of sit down and explain, Me,
oh let's add a three point line to this. Soccer oh,
man that reminds. Me, ACTUALLY i once played an indoor
tournament and it was one of those WHERE i signed.
UP i was put on a team With rando's and
it was a indoor soccer on one of those like
(41:55):
hockey rink style.
Speaker 1 (41:56):
Pitches oh, yeah, Yeah i've played.
Speaker 2 (41:58):
There, Yeah and they had a if you took a
shot from outside the hockey. Area it counted for. Two oh, wow,
yeah WHICH i MEAN i should say something about proven soccer.
Culture if you don't walk the ball into the, net
it's really not worth, celebrating you, know like like we
are a, team we over. Elaborate if you play pick
(42:21):
up In, lima it's like ping ping ping ping ping little.
Speaker 1 (42:23):
Touches it's so.
Speaker 2 (42:24):
Cute and then you, know one, time we'm playing with
my cousins AND i took a shot from like sixteen.
Yards it went, in And remer looked at me, like
who do you think you? Are how do you think you?
Are Roberto carlos like what's your?
Speaker 1 (42:38):
Problem?
Speaker 2 (42:39):
Man and SO i felt like kind of personally offended
by this. Rule and ALSO i didn't really sort of
vibe with my. Teammates we, lost, like you, know eighteen
to six or something ridiculous like, that AND i probably
quit the team and looked for another, league BUT i just.
Didn't the two point golden goal is. INSANE i WONDER
(42:59):
i would love to be at the committee note the
meeting notes from that the day they decided to, like
oh let's try something to let's.
Speaker 1 (43:05):
Innovate you, Know i'm Sure sep ladder was. THERE i
played indoor soccer in my, thirties AND i remember one
time towards the end of my, career a guy kept,
saying why do you keep fouling? Me BECAUSE i would
pull him down as he ran past. Me AND i,
said because you're you're faster THAN i. Am, yeah and
(43:26):
those are the. Rules, yeah there's a couple things about.
THAT i want to just latch onto the word. Career,
yeah it was a Career, daniel lastly from kindergarten to eighth,
grade and then it's kind of struck up again in
my late, twenties and then it ended around the age
of thirty.
Speaker 2 (43:44):
Six, okay all, right all, right all, right that's. Fair
and then the, YEAH i mean that that's.
Speaker 1 (43:52):
Good that's.
Speaker 2 (43:52):
Good I've i've also had a career that, is you,
know coming to the. End AND i do sort of
think of it, THAT i, mean the rules are the,
rules and you, know just because someone's just because they
don't like you being pulled, down it's not their job
to judicate. That that's what the ref is. For, Yeah
AND i was reminded of this. Recently WAS i used
(44:15):
to play on a team out in The bayry called
left WING, fc AND i was reminded by a friend
of a particularly rousing team. TALK i gave it a
halftime of one of these games where we'd been chasing
around this other team that had this incredible player who
was just running us. Ragged and APPARENTLY i told the,
team my, teammates you, know this guy was just killing.
(44:36):
US i was, like don't, worry, guys he won't be so.
Fast in fifteen. Years we'll get any. Now, Yeah AND
i said, this you, know got imagine me saying, this
like out of, breath and you know, What it's probably
been fifteen, years And i'm sure he's still faster Than
he's faster than, you for, sure for. Sure, Yeah and
(45:00):
you're faster THAN i. Am that's just the way things.
Speaker 1 (45:02):
Are. Man we gotta we gotta lean into what skills we.
Have and the SKILL i had was always THAT i
wanted it very. BADLY i didn't have any talent for,
it But god DID i want. It so This World
Cup daniel will sadly not feature golden, goal nor will
it feature this incredible rule where a golden goal is
(45:24):
worth two.
Speaker 2 (45:24):
Goals it, won't nor will there be a three point
line or a laying. Violation So, JOHN i want to
highlight something for our. Listeners we now have an email,
address which is away And pod at gmail dot com
where you can send us questions or stories or opinions
(45:48):
or photos of your you, know little league soccer team
or whatever you, want and we'll try to get some
of your stories on the.
Speaker 1 (45:56):
Air so again it's a way end. Pod, also please
send us all your photographs of you in nineteen ninety
four or nineteen ninety six to go along with the
photograph That, daniel without my, permission shared of me in
nineteen ninety six On, instagram.
Speaker 2 (46:12):
Or send photos of eBay links Where john could get
The yaegermeister. Shirt but he's wearing in that. PHOTO i,
Mean i'm.
Speaker 1 (46:21):
Wearing A yeagermeister. Shirt i'm also wearing a backwards baseball,
cap which is so. Cringey And i'm sure that in
nineteen ninety six it. Wasn't but like NOW i look
at that kid And i'm, like oh my, god AND
i have to, Say, daniel thank you for loving me,
then BECAUSE i know it wasn't. Easy, sean thank you
for loving me? THEN i know it was all my, Goodness,
(46:41):
wow Rousing end to. This, SORRY i just wanted TO
i wanted to get a little emotional here at the
end of the. Pod but thanks to everybody for. Listening
we're very very grateful to be with. You, yeah absolutely,
absolutely las of love to, You.
Speaker 2 (46:53):
JOHN i want to thank our Producer Sean, Titane Kurt.
GARREN i also want to thank my Son, eliseo who
is serving as a kind of editor on the, show
because WHEN i get the links From kurt for the
mixes of.
Speaker 1 (47:06):
These, EPISODES i give them To Eddy sale and he.
Speaker 2 (47:10):
Listens to me and tells me if it's funny or.
Speaker 1 (47:11):
Not so thank You.
Speaker 2 (47:12):
Eddie so all, right thanks so, Much, John thanks everybody for.
Speaker 1 (47:15):
Listening we'll see you next. Week
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