John's back! We're less than 100 days out from kick off in the United States, Canada, and Mexico, and on today's episode, John and Daniel start things off by breaking down their hierarchy of loyalties with the teams in this year's World Cup. Then, John leads the way on a deep dive of the USMNT. Could this finally be their year? And Daniel tells a story about how he ended up with some sweet purple sneakers with a questionable team's name on them.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
Hey, welcome back to the Away End. I'm John Green.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
I'm Danielle Alercon. John. You missed an incredible episode last week.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
We really addressed some of the really thorny existential questions
in world football, like, for example, why does everyone hate
Marco Gorilla. We also analyzed the chances of a hypothetical
team made up of players of the Upper West Side
of Manhattan and wondered if they would do better than
(00:34):
Kurusa in the World Cup. So I want to ask you,
on behalf of all the people listening, why weren't you
here last week?
Speaker 1 (00:40):
Yeah? So I have an excused absence because I was
a witness in a federal fraud trial. I was contacted
by the FBI a couple of weeks ago. They called
me and they left a message, and of course I
thought it was fraud because why would the FBI contact
you and how would they even get your number? Well,
it turns out they get your number because they're the FBI.
(01:03):
They thought that was my question.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
I assumed that they can get your number. That wasn't
my question would be more like why would they call you?
And most stories that begin with I was contacted by
the FBI don't end well, but go on. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
To be fair, the FBI agent when he called me,
the first thing he said was you're not in any trouble,
And I thought to myself, I bet they say that
to all of their potential defendants. But it turns out
my image and name were used in a flyer, a
direct mail campaign for a pyramid scheme. Only I John
(01:39):
Green was not identified as an author, YouTuber or indeed
as my most important gig, the host of the away.
And I was identified as a pharmacist and as a
Level four participant in this pyramid scheme, such that I
was making over one hundred and fifty thousand dollars a year.
And so the FBI said, are you and fact a pharmacist?
(02:00):
And I said I think we both know the answer
to that. And they said were you a pharmacist in
twenty eighteen? And I said I was not a pharmacist
then either, and they said, all right, that should be
all we need. And then they called back the next
day and there were four Department of Justice lawyers on
the phone and they were like, hey, can you come
testify at a trial in Milwaukee? And I was like,
you know, guys, I wish you all the best with
(02:23):
this and everything. And it sounds like a lot of people,
especially really vulnerable elderly people, were defrauded by this, and
I know millions of dollars were lost and everything. But
I'm a pretty busy guy, and like.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
I have a soccer podcast. I don't know if you've
heard of it.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
Yeah, it's called The Away End. And they were like,
very nicely, they were like, well, here's a subpoena. It
turns out that when you're issued a subpoena, you can't
actually turn down the opportunity to come testify a It's
not an optional opportunity.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
Got it? Got it?
Speaker 1 (03:00):
So I found myself in Milwaukee, and I sat in
a great town. I sat in a witness room for
five hours waiting to testify, and then I testified, and
there were objections to my testimony. It was the full
court experience. I sat in the witness box, I raised
(03:22):
my right hand. I swore to tell the truth, the
whole truth, and nothing but the truth. And I testified
to the fact that I'm not a pharmacist and that
I'd never heard of this pyramid scheme. And they asked
me what I did for a living and I said
mostly I host the away n but I also do
some other stuff.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
And then I.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
Was cross examined for like fifteen minutes, where somewhat in
my opinion, condescending defense attorney kept saying, well, I haven't
read any of your books, and I was like, well,
that's I wanted to say what I usually say in
that situation, which is, well, there's still in print, but instead.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
There's a library down the block on.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
Exactly you can get one if you've it's not important
to you. Instead, I just said, that's all right, And yeah,
it was a weird experience, man, But I just found
out today that the trial concluded with the conviction of
these two folks. And yeah, I mean I wasn't there,
(04:18):
you know, to convict or not convict. I was just
there to tell the truth. That was what I kept
telling myself, that.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
The long arm of the law. Well, I learned most
of the things that I know about the law from
the movie my cousin Vinny. Yes, and so did you
get a sidebar? Because I feel like those are so cool, Like.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
There was no sidebar while I was testifying. However, my
friend was in the courtroom for the entire thing. Because
he flew to Milwaukee with me because he wanted to
have what he called a high contrast experience. And he
told me there were a number of sidebars earlier in
the trial, but I didn't get a personal sidebar.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
The little whispering between the judge. It's like, you know, yeah,
love it all right, man. Well, I will leave it
up to the listeners to accept or reject your excused
absence or your absence. But I think that's a legitimate reason.
And I'm glad the long arm of the law caught
up with these fraudsters who were pretending to be you,
(05:16):
and I guess making making you party to a scam.
That sucks.
Speaker 1 (05:21):
Yeah, I mean, it's not the worst thing that's ever
happened in my public reputation, but it wasn't. It's not great,
and I feel bad for the people who were defrauded,
of course, so of course, yeah, anyway, what's been going
on with you?
Speaker 2 (05:33):
Well, we soldiered on without you. Sean filled in. He
was called up, uh, you know, off the bench, off
the bench into the starting eleven, a kind of game
day decision. Did wonderfully ably and you know, like I said,
we tackled a lot of those those really great questions
that listeners have been sending into us. And actually that's
(05:54):
where kind of where I wanted to start today, if
that's all right, sure, because we got an email to
set it up a little bit, and I want to
shout out a deer departed friend of mine named Ibrahim Mattein,
who was just a wonderful guy. We were friends back
in Oakland and he used to wear a glove everywhere
he went, like just one glove. And one time we
were like him, what's up? What's up with the glove?
(06:16):
We were going out to this bar and he was like,
He's like, exactly what's up with the glove? And he
was like and his whole thing was like, ladies are
gonna just be like, you know, come over and just
you know, it's such a conversation starter, like oh and
what are what are you doing with one glove? And
not too you know. But he had a single and
relentless talking point, which was loyalty. He would always talk
(06:38):
about loyalty, and I think he meant it in terms
of family and friends, to whom he was very dedicated
and generous and loving. But I but it's something I
think about a lot specifically in terms of of football soccer,
because there was a thing that my uncle, my deod
Fredo said to me once which I hesitate to share,
(07:02):
but I will. He said, Donny, you can trust a
man who changes his politics, and you can trust a
man who changes his wife, but you can't trust a
man who changes his soccer team. I mean, you know,
I was like ten, you know, I'm like wife. Oh no,
(07:23):
girls are girls are goodies, you know, like, uh, but
you know the the uh in politics. I was like, well,
what do you mean anyway? Uh So that's the setup.
And I want to read an email we got from
a listener named Luke, and he said the following, because
I want to talk about loyalties in football, specifically in
honor of Iberhem and my tiol. Fredo says, uh. Luke says, hello,
(07:45):
Daniel and John. I write to you as a conflicted man.
I am a Canadian who comes from Italian roots, and
I am at a loss. I never thought I'd see
the day where Canada and Italy both qualified for the
World Cup. What's worse, Assuming Italy qualifies for the World Cup,
which is far from certain, Canada and Italy will have
to play each other. I have very strong feelings on
both sides. Any insight from you two would be very
(08:05):
much appreciated. Who do I root for in the World Cup?
Thank you? Luke? So? I mean, first off, you know
Italy might not make it, so you might be off
the hook. But what if it happens, John, what do
you think? What should we tell Luke?
Speaker 1 (08:19):
It's a tough one because I feel a certain connection.
My family's Irish, and I feel a certain connection with
the Irish national team. I feel a bigger connection with
the US men's national team. But I think it's where
you where you feel the connection. You know, sometimes you
can flip a coin and say like that's going to
decide who I root for here, and then the coin
(08:39):
lands on tails and you're like, wait a second, that's
not what I wanted. Maybe you do that, maybe that's
how you figure it out, but it can be really difficult.
And I know it's got to be hard for you
because you grew up in the US, but you were
born in Peru. You feel a deeper connection, i'd imagine
to the Peruvian men's national team than to the US.
But you've talked about how you have a fondness for
(09:00):
the US M and t I.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
Do I do. In my case, it's an easy decision.
And I don't know if this helps loop, but I
think of it in terms of who needs it more,
you know. And I really think a country like Peru,
like my country where I was born, like we could
use a win, you know, right, And I feel like,
you know, the US wins a lot. Us is a
(09:23):
powerhouse in you know, in global politics, bully, in global politics,
our economy, you know, our cultural power is everywhere, and
you know, like Peru gets like, you know, no love
and is a you know, kind of a global political
punchline now because we had just had our eighth president
in ten years, and so it's almost like, you know,
(09:46):
this kind of revolving door presidency that's kind of a
joke in political science circles and otherwise, like, you know,
folks don't know much about Peru. I feel like a
win for Peru would be super important emotionally for the country.
I know that because I was in Peru when when
we made the World Cup in twenty eighteen, and I
know what that meant to everybody across all political divisions
(10:10):
and class divisions and ethnic divisions. So you know, for me,
it wouldn't be hard, Luke. It would be like Peru's
playing United States Peru, no questions asked. Now in your
case Canadon and Italy, I mean Canada, it would mean
It's hard to say because Italy hasn't even made the
World Cup in the last two times, and so Italy
(10:33):
is a country with a proud and you know, important
footballing legacy, and for them to make the World Cup
is going to be huge if they can pull it off,
and for them to go far and you know, would
be great too. But I don't know, I don't know
what should we tell, Luke.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
I think that if you're going to base it on
who needs it more, I think Canada needs it more
because they've had less success and they actually have a
pretty good chance this year to go fairly far in
the tournament and they're hosting it. So if you're basically
on who needs it more, I think that's the call.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
Yeah, yeah, So in preparation for answering this, this is
and this is another bit of advice for Luke or
for whoever who's who's gonna watch the World Cup and
you know, you may or may not have a team,
but I always make my hierarchy of loyalties.
Speaker 1 (11:20):
This is key. You need it because when when Uzbeka
Stan plays Morocco, you need to know who you're rooting for.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
Yes, yes, you absolutely do, because you can watch the
game just for for for the spectacle. But it's more
fun to watch the game when you know what you want. Right.
So John and I both prepare a list. I want
to say off the top, though, John, these are not
I have no enmity towards no nation. This is not
(11:47):
a like you know, list of countries I like or dislike.
It's just the strictly footballing loyalties. This is not anything,
you know. I'm not trying to start a world war
or anything. And I do think that the World Cup
is one of the places that I find where I
find nationalism to be acceptable and appropriate, and I'm keen
(12:12):
on it. I love expressions of national pride and in
this context as long as they aren't sort of denigrating
other countries. So I just want to get that out
of the way, because I don't want people to write me.
I don't want Chileans to write me nasty emails, basically
is what I'm saying.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
Yet, John, you want to go through your list, Sho'll
go through my list. So first I've got the USA.
It's just it's where I'm from. It's you know, the
team I've watched the most over the last twenty five years,
and heartbreak and joy and everything. It's who I am,
whether I like it or not. I remember when I
(12:47):
was in the Netherlands. When I lived in the Netherlands
for a little while, someone called me incurably American and
I ended up using that in the Faultner Stars. And
I think I am a little incurably American, even when
I against my will. So USA first, Then second, I
have the Netherlands because we lived there and they've never
won the World Cup and they deserve. They deserve to
win a World Cup. They are incredibly strong footballing nation
(13:12):
that has changed the way football has played in profound ways.
And yeah, so I've got the Netherlands. Then I've got
CONCA CAF teams that aren't Mexico, so Currosow, Trinidad and Tobago, Jamaica, Bermuda,
all those teams. I always want them to do well.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
Costa Rica, the Upper West Side of Manhattan, anyone, the.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
Upper West Side of Manhattan, absolutely all those teams, So
all those teams that aren't Mexico. Then we've got every
African team every I'm going to root for every African
team next. None of them have won a World Cup.
It's incredibly exciting for all those countries to go far
in the World Cup. I remember when Morocco mane its semifinals. Incredible,
(13:55):
incredibly joyful. Then I've got Peru because of my friend Daniel,
Thank you. Than threw over all other South American teams
because of my friend, and because over the years I've
just developed a fondness for them, even though they're not
going to be in the World Cup this time. Then
I've got and this is going to be a controversial
pick in this family, I've got England because I watch
(14:16):
a lot of English soccer and so I feel connected
to a lot of the English players. I'm one of
my closest friends is English, and I want good things
for him. He's a high school history teacher. It's a
tough time to be a classroom teacher, and I want
good things for him.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
Then I've gotten mad at that. I'm not mad at that.
I like a lot of the English players. I watch
a lot of the Premier leagu obviously, so yeah, I'm
not bad at that all. Right.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
Then i got Brazil. I like Brazil because my books
were very successful there before they were successful in the
United States. And I'm very grateful to the people of
Brazil for supporting my work so early on when I
really needed it, and I will never forget that. And
then I have all other South American teams. South American
football is just a joy to watch, and I know
how much it means in South America, and I just
(15:00):
I like it when Argentina or Chile play well. I
like it when Columbia plays well. It just brings me joy.
Then I've got every Asian team, maybe a little less
of the nation's game than it is in South America
or Europe or whatever, but still really fun. No team
from Asia has ever won the World Cup. That would
(15:21):
be incredibly exciting. Then I've got all European teams that
haven't won the World Cup. Right, so if you haven't
won a World Cup, I'm interested in you. Then I've
got Mexico, my least favorite CONKA CAF team are great
rivals in football, But the thing is, when Mexico wins,
I'm not that unhappy, except when they play us, then
(15:42):
I've got Italy. Now this is going to devastate our
friend Sean, our producer Sean, who is himself Italian. I
also have other close friends who are Italian. I just
struggled to root for the Italian national team Sewan because
they're very defensive, they're very negative. I don't like the
way they play football. I feel like that may be
uh a legacy. That Yeah, that made me need some revising.
(16:04):
I'm also had it only very low on my list
for for a different reason, which I'll explain. But I'm
not sure that's still the case.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
But go on, we'll see. Just look at it. Just
look at how the Italians. I mean, first of all,
they're so handsome. You know, it's hard to very good looking,
very so Sean obviously, uh the uh if you look
at the Italian teams in the you know nowadays when
they play in Europe, these are high scoring affairs. They're
(16:32):
not you know, Cuttanaccio as they used to be. So
that might need a little a closer look. But this
is all about our prejudices and and and sort of
like what we you know, the truths we've inherited over
the years and hole deer, I have similar ones.
Speaker 1 (16:46):
So yeah, then I rounded out with Germany, France and
Spain Spain being in last place because they win all
the time and tiki taka boring, boring, no drama, no,
uh wow, nothing in it for me. I don't love.
I just don't love Spanish football. I don't love. I
(17:08):
don't and I'm tired of Spain and France and winning
every World Cup.
Speaker 2 (17:12):
Yeah, I agree with that. I agree with that. They're good.
They're good, they're good teams, They're wonderful teams.
Speaker 1 (17:17):
They're really good. They're really good, they have the best
players in the world, and so of course they're going
to win a lot. But I struggle to root for
them because because I love an underdog. That's there, Yeah, I.
Speaker 2 (17:27):
Mean to me, that's always like the tiebreaker there because
if you have, say, you know, two Asian teams playing
each other and they're in your same category, John, I
think you know, you look to see who's the underdog,
you know, or I mean the other deal. The tiebreaker
for me is like, do I have a close friend
from that country, you know, and that that's important to me, yep,
as it is important to you and I appreciate.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
Is there someone I can text about this? Is there
someone I can text whose joy I will feel vicariously?
All right, what's your wist? Daniel?
Speaker 2 (17:57):
Yeah, okay, So Peru obviously is the top for the
same reasons you described about the US. Then Colombia, where
my wife is from and I have so I have
two kids who are Colombian, and where I'm currently living,
and I happened to be here in twenty fourteen when
Colombia had that wonderful run and had this really powerful,
beautiful team and I loved it. Then any Latin American
(18:21):
team except for Brazil and Chile. Now Brazil because they
win a lot, and because I've played soccer with a
lot of Brazilians over the years, and they just don't
pass the Peruvians. That just might that just might be
my experience. But I remember playing like a seven aside
and six of the guys were from Brazil and it's
(18:42):
you know, they're all speaking fallen the Portuguese, and I'm like, okay,
you know, like I'm wide open here and no one's
passing me the ball because because they're Brazilians and because
they're so good and so they just don't see the Peruvians,
so you know, I just hold a grudge, you know.
So then Brazil, because I'm not I'm not. I just
sort of like any Latin American team first except for
(19:04):
Brazil and today and then Brazil, you know, got it.
Then Japan. We have some really close friends from Japan
and my son's my youngest son, his best friend moved
their family moved from New York to Tokyo, and we
went to visit a couple of years ago and it
was magical and beautiful. And I've played, I've had some
really incredible I've played with some incredible Japanese players in
New York over the years and in Oakland actually, and
(19:27):
and just really love how technical they are. Then Cape
verdie That's a shout out to my friend Janine, who
is Cape Verdian from the Boston area and it is
a dream of mine to see a game with her family,
and I'm hoping that that can happen. Then the United States,
and I you know, I'll root for the United States
(19:47):
in many situations, in most situations because I do. I
do love the team. I want good things for them.
I just always worry how US patriotism is misused then Ireland. Yeah,
because Irish are just like Ireland. Irish are great, great people,
great fans. They're basically Latin American. They're Catholic, they have
(20:09):
lots of guilt, they like to drink. I mean, they're
just like, you know, I'm just a fan, you know,
never been to Dublin. I love Irish writers also, so
you know, Ireland's a good pick. I feel like, then
any European team that hasn't won the World Cup for
the reasons we described, I would put a slight asterisk there.
And I'm like, of the many multiple wars that have
(20:31):
been intra European I'm usually against the the tiebreaker be
like are they an aggressor are they not an aggressor?
You know which is I understand that's like a kind
of false historical thing because all the countries have been
aggressors and victims at different points in history. But you know,
for whatever that's worth, you know.
Speaker 1 (20:50):
Last time out, last time out, were they aggressors? I
think is not a bad tiebreaker.
Speaker 2 (20:56):
Yeah. Yeah, It's like, you know, I love Russian littercy
so if Russia were playing in the World Cup, I would,
you know, and I like Russians. I have lots of
Russian friends, you know, but it's kind of hard to
root for Russia right now. I find it hard to
root for Russia right now personally.
Speaker 1 (21:10):
Yeah, I think that's a reasonable take.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
Yeah, And then I'm with you. I kind of I
think I would put this is tough. I have Spain
than England, but I could really do the other way around.
I really do like the English team. A lot of
a lot of players I think are really good, and
I like Okayosaka. So England, Spain right around there, and
then Germany, France, Italy and Italy I want to say
(21:34):
is close to the bottom. Because the first World Cup
game I ever watched was Bulgaria versus Italy in nineteen
eighty six. And I remember my uncle Bippet when Bulgaria tied,
like close to the end of the game and Italy
had played they were the reigning champions for eighty two
and they had played, you know, such a dreary, boring,
(21:57):
defensive game. As you were describing Bulgary tide and my
uncle I remember this very clearly, he clapped his hands
and rubbed him together and he's like, footballer, you know,
now we're gonna see what football is right. She was like,
the towns are gonna wake up and show us finally
what they're made of, you know, because they're Italians and
you know this kind of like. And I remember watching
(22:19):
the remaining like five, six, ten minutes of the game,
waiting for this thing to happen, and my uncle had
promised me was about to happen, and it never happened,
and I was like, oh, come on, like this sucks,
you know, And so I, like I said, I hold
a grudge. I love Italy. I have many Italian friends,
including our producer Sean, but that that shit is boring. Lastly, Chile,
(22:42):
and again I could spend the rest of the hour
naming all my Chilean friends, but you know, we have
a rivalry in Latin America, in South America, Brew Chile,
we have a rivalry. So she just got to be
at the bottom. Luckily, I don't think that's gonna ever
come up. You know, I won't ever see Chile. And
in a final, I did actually go with my great
(23:02):
friend Alejandro Sambra, the incredible Chiland novelist. He was in
New York and he invited me to the Copamenica Centennadio final,
which was Argentina Chile, and I refused to wear a
Chile jersey, but I wore a red Arsenal jersey just
to make him happy. We went to the game because
I love Alejandro. You know, I pretended to be It
was a boring zero zero that ended up in penalty kicks,
(23:24):
which they won, and I pretended to be kind of
nominally happy because you know, On's part of mine. So
that's my list, and Luke, I hope that helps. I
really recommend that everyone make a hierarchy of loyalties because
it really simplifies things. And you don't want to there's
so many games in the first round, right in the
(23:44):
group stages. You don't want to be in a situation
where you sit on to watch a game and you
don't know who to root for. So to this ahead
of time, prepare. You've got months to do it. I
think it's really important.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
All Right, we'll be back after a break to talk
about the US men's national team.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
We're back on the away end on Vanilla Arcone. John,
what's up with US men's national team? Talk to me.
Speaker 1 (24:17):
So, I've always thought of the US men's national team
as being a tremendous disappointment and a cause of misery
in my life. They do nothing but break my heart.
They infuriate me, They misplaced back passes, send Barbados in
on goal, etc. Right Like, it's not just losing, it's
losing to Trinidad and Tobago or failing to beat trinid
out in Tobago and then failing to qualify for the
(24:38):
World Cup. Right like, that's humiliating. Nothing against my Trinidadian friends,
but where a nation of three hundred and fifty million people,
we should be able to find eleven people who can
be trinnerd aut in Tobago in a game of football.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
Agreed.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
And so my feeling has always been the United States
sucks at soccer and always will And this is a
sort of ongoing misery in my life. And in doing
this research over the last week, I have realized that
I was wrong on every possible level. So, first off,
in the very first World Cup in nineteen thirty, the
(25:13):
US finished third, which is the highest ever finish for
any country outside of South America or Europe. The United
States is the highest finishing country outside of South America
or Europe.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
Full stop. Okay, to be fair, there was like twelve
teams in the first World Cup.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
Yes, I don't disagree with you, but still it's a statistic, Daniel,
And you can't argue.
Speaker 2 (25:35):
With statistics, not arguing, not arguing, you know.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
So then there's the fact that in two thousand and two,
when I personally desperately needed it, because I was living
in a furnished studio apartment in the midst of trying
to recover from a mental health crisis and the worst
breakup of all time. And you know, Daniel, I've had
some bad breakups.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
Yeah, yeah, I've seen this was this was worse than those. Okay,
all right.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
I was recovering from this mental health crisis, and the
US made it to the quarterfinals. They won a knockout
game against Mexico. It was incredible. And so when I
really needed the US men's national team, in fact, they
showed up for me amidst my loneliness and fragility, And
so I should be grateful for that.
Speaker 2 (26:17):
Can I jump in there, because I think it's important
to say that not only did they make the quarterfinals,
they should have won that game.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
They might Oliver won that game.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
They might have won that game. Look, they played against Germany,
Michael Ballach closer, Miroslav Closer, like you know, one of
the high scoring players in the history of the World Cup.
Their goalkeeper Oliver Kah made a number of incredible saves
and there was a blatant handball. Blatant handball to Greg Berhalter,
(26:50):
who we're going to mention his son later on took
a shot. It appeared at first that Oliver kind had
saved it, but later it was clear in replays that
it actually there was a German defender who kept it
out with his hand, with his left hand, and in
the age of ar that would have absolutely been a
penalty kick. Now we all know penalty case can be missed, etc.
But I'm just saying that, like it was a one
to one game, it was close, and the US had
(27:10):
a ton of chances. Landon Landnovan was in on goal twice,
one on one with Oliver Kahan and couldn't put it
away because Oliver Kon made some incredible saves.
Speaker 1 (27:20):
So yeah, Oliver kN played his butt off that game.
And I agree with you that that year something special
did happen, and something more special might have happened, and
in fact, getting out of the group in nineteen ninety
four was an incredible result. And then they played Brazil
and lost one nil, and Brazil should have had a
red card and that game might have gone differently, And
(27:41):
so you could argue the US has actually been a
little unlucky in World Cups. But actually where they usually
get is they go out in the round of sixteen,
which is about right, because I have to remind myself
the US men's national team just doesn't have that great
of player base to work from. Like I, of course
(28:04):
expect them to be very good, because our women's hockey
team is good, and our cross country skiers are good,
and we generally overperform in athletics because we spend a
lot of money on it in the US.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
But and then the US women's national team is incredible.
Speaker 1 (28:22):
The US women's national team is you know, certainly was
the best in the world for many decades, might still
be the best in the world. And so I have
this expectation that we should be competing for the World
Cup every time we go out, and then I'm devastated
when we tie trind Out in Tobago uh one one
(28:43):
in On October tenth, twenty seventeen, the day that my
book Turtles all the way down came out, thus ruining
my publication date not to make it about me. So
the truth is, in nineteen ninety four we made it
out of the group with a bunch of players who
played in England and Germany second and third and in
a couple cases fourth divisions. There was no professional soccer
league in the US at the time, and now all
(29:06):
of that has changed, right, Like, there is a pretty good,
not great, but pretty good professional soccer league in the
United States. We have good players who play in the
top leagues in Europe. We've got Timothy Waia, who's the
son of Liberian president and former great footballer George Way.
We've got Weston McKinney. We've got our Lord and Savior,
(29:27):
Christian Polistic. But I think we also need to remember,
like there are one hundred over one hundred English players
in the Premier League. There are over twenty Spanish players
in the Premier League. Like I'm not talking about who
plays at Real Madrid and Barcelona. There's over twenty who
play in England, and there's over ten Irish players in
(29:48):
the Premier League, and there are four Americans. This similar
underrepresentation in Italy and Germany and Spain. We just don't
have that many great players, Like we don't have a
standout goalie right now, we don't have a standout striker.
We aren't Brazil, and so if we make it to
the round of sixteen and then lose, which has historically
(30:10):
been approximately our level, I shouldn't be that disappointed. I
should understand like we are doing about as good as
we can do.
Speaker 2 (30:20):
Can I jump in there because I agree with you,
especially about the strikers. However, our two strikers have really
world class, outstanding names, true, just say them and they're
so fun to say. Regard though Peppi, I just I
love that name Fuller in Belligan again, like world class name.
(30:42):
Can they finish not consistently, but they're really fun to say.
Speaker 1 (30:47):
Yeah, No, I don't disagree with you. I think that
there's a lot to recommend it. A Haji Wright is
a great name, wonderful name. You know, We've got some
great names on the team, no getting around, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:57):
Yeah no, got a respect, full respect.
Speaker 1 (31:01):
I'm not sure about the finishing quality. And then I'm
not sure about our goalkeeping, which has historically been an
American strength. You know, the line in England was always
like those Americans, they can't play with their feet, but
they're pretty good with their hands.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
Yeah, which is which is funny because now goalkeepers are
are asked now to play with their feet, which has.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
Got to be very good.
Speaker 2 (31:22):
Shut the door on a lot of American goalkeepers. Shout
out to that guy who played at Arsenal for a season,
and then Michel was like, bye, I can't remember his name.
Speaker 1 (31:32):
Matt Turner.
Speaker 2 (31:33):
Oh, Matt Turner, poor guy, shot supper, you know, terrible
to his feet.
Speaker 1 (31:40):
Yeah. Yeah, we should mention, by the way, that there
are a few figures in American soccer that, depending on
your worldview, are either people who bridge the gap between
the game and the American public or people who make
it impossible for us to ever pete on a truly
(32:01):
international level. And among the top of them is Alexi Lawless,
the soccer commentator of former American defender Ginger famously yeah,
famously red curly hair flowing to his shoulders back in
the day. And you know, we've got we've got some
(32:23):
good soccer commentators, We've got Rob Stone. We also have
some bad soccer commentators like Alexi Lallis.
Speaker 2 (32:30):
So yeah, I've seen Alexi las play live. Actually, the
first game that I ever saw the World Cup was
the very famous, slash infamous US Columbia game in in
nineteen ninety four, in the game where at the Rose
Bowl where Andres Escobar scored an own goal that he
(32:50):
later lost his life was killed when he returned to
Columbia because of his own goal. Yeah, so I was
at that game, and I remember, so I'm of the
two of US. I can say that I've seen Alexi
Lawis in all his glory uh in nineteen ninety four
play and I agree with you on your your sort
of uh. There's a real blowhard quality to his commentating
(33:11):
and and most of what he says I find inane.
I don't think he's the problem though. I think that
the problem really is the hunger of the US players,
And I think that comes from soccer being a suburban
sport and a kind of suburban middle class sport. And
(33:32):
I think the kids who play elsewhere in the world
plet's play with more hunger. You know, there's more at
stake if you're you know, if you're Lucho Diaz, you
know from Columbia, Like you know, soccer is is is
your savior. You know, I had a friend and hit
her son played on a pretty good team. I think
(33:56):
it was a Red Bulls Academy team, and they went
to they went to play a few like you know,
they were like fourteen. They went to play fifteen games
in England. So it went on a tour. And she
told me later that when the kid came back, he
you know, he wouldn't say anything about the trip. You know,
it's like, how was the trip, Oh, yeah, it was fine,
went to this museum and he would say things, but
(34:16):
never about the games. And finally she was like, okay, son,
what about the games? And she was like, mom, we
never touched the ball.
Speaker 1 (34:28):
You know.
Speaker 2 (34:28):
So they're like the Red Bulls Academy team or whatever
it was. You know, the best players in New York
from the Upper West Side and elsewhere go to New
York and play like the aston Villa. Go to England.
I'm sorry, played aston Villa, you know, under fourteens and
just it's like, you know, men against boys, they just
never touched the ball. They get trounced and come back
with their tail between their legs, and I think it's just,
(34:50):
you know, the training is harder elsewhere the tactical understanding
is more sophisticated, and then in the case of lots
of places, people are playing with just more hunger because
they're lives depend on it.
Speaker 1 (35:01):
Yeah. I also think we have a big pay to
play problem in the United States, which is why soccer
is such a suburban sport in the US. Because you know,
in fact, we were preparing for this, our producer, Sean Sean,
if you don't mind coming on for a second, you
were like, I don't know a ton about soccer, but
I can't help but notice I recognize some of these names.
Speaker 3 (35:22):
Yeah, well, you know, as someone that probably followed it
closer in the nineties and growing up like all of
these people, I was like, oh, yeah, I mean these
guys played on the team, you know, back in the nineties,
or they're you know, coaches in the past ten years
or whatever. So yeah, there's definitely it feels. I mean,
(35:44):
maybe nepotism is not a fair word here, and maybe
you guys can get into some of the nuances of that,
but it's hard to ignore at the same time considering
the you know, very number of spots.
Speaker 1 (36:02):
Yeah no, I mean we've got Giorana, We've got seb Berhalter,
We've got Tim Wao. Like, these are famous last names
in American football and global football. And I think that
is not because of like fancy bloodlines, or indeed even
because of like nepotism on the level of, oh you
have a famous last names, you are more likely to
(36:22):
get selected for the national team. I think it's that,
you know, it's about the way we develop players. It's
it's a pay to play game. Like you have to
pay thousands of dollars to be in a year to
be in some of these elite soccer clubs, and those
who can afford the best training just have a better
shot of becoming the best players. If you'd given Daniel,
(36:44):
if you'd given Daniel the best club team in the
world when he was six years old and you told him,
which his parents would never do, unfortunately, stop paying attention
to school, Focus on football, you know, Do not become
a doctor, Do not become I'm a writer. Focus on
what matters. I genuinely think he would have had a shop.
(37:05):
And there's a lot of kids like that. To be fair,
I think they did say did not become a writer?
Speaker 2 (37:09):
Uh was actually said, so yeah, yeah, I mean again,
I hesitate to say that, I, you know, I could
have done what like gotten a junior college scholarship that,
you know, to play Birmingham Southern Like maybe you know,
(37:30):
I don't know, but I think you're onto something. I
remember talking to a friend of mine, college professor in Texas,
Mexican guy, his son goalkeeper, and one day his son announced, uh,
he's like mom, Dad, He's like, soccer is going to
lift this family out of poverty. And my friend was like,
(37:56):
looking around, He's like, what are you talking? Like for
a second, what in our life has led you to
believe we're living in property? Like I teach at the
University of Texas, Like you know, I have tenure, I
have tenure. Your mom is you know, is a profession?
Like you know, what are you talking about?
Speaker 1 (38:10):
You know?
Speaker 2 (38:10):
And then it was just this conversation was like look
all right, man, you know you go, you know whatever
you need to justify this to to, like you know,
give it your all, goo go for it. But like
you know, he told the story with this look of
just absolutely like like you know the things kids say,
you know, but I think there's something about that, like
that that that that level of passion of a player
(38:31):
like you know lutely as I mentioned earlier, Uh, you know,
suburban US kids don't have that, and we can thank
our quality of life for a lot of things, but
maybe not for that.
Speaker 1 (38:42):
I think you need a mix of passion and resources though,
because you have to have the resources surrounding you to
be able to develop into a good player like all.
You know, this is the problem with the Sierra Leonian
national team, right, is that they just don't have the
resources to develop their best players. And you know whereas
a country like Nigeria does have more resources to develop
(39:03):
their best players. So I think it depends. I think
you need to hit some kind of think. I think
that's part of what makes it hard, some kind of balance.
But I think in the US we're doing it all wrong,
and we're starting to get some things right, We're starting
to do a better job of developing players. But I
also think there's something to recommend, like not having a
(39:23):
system like they have in England, where you know, you
bomb out at the age of eleven, or at the
age of fourteen, or at the age of sixteen, and
you're told I'm sorry, you're never going to be able
to live this dream and you've put all your eggs
into that metaphorical basket, and like it's very difficult to
do anything else with your life. Like I see that
all the time as an AFC Wimbledon fans fan. We
get kids from other academies, from Premier League academies who
(39:46):
end up at AFC Wimbledon and they're really limited in
some of their some of their educational opportunities because they've
been told to focus so much on football. So I
think it's a mixed bag. I think it's a complicated,
complicated story. And the pure of a country, of course,
is not necessarily to make great footballers.
Speaker 2 (40:07):
Right, that's true. That's true, there's the that's that's absolutely true.
I remember seeing a video of Jack Grealish at the
England camp and someone help a map of England and
they were like, so can you point to where you're from?
And you know, he had no idea, He couldn't, like
he couldn't, He just didn't know, you know, And and
my first reaction was like, you know, kind of shock
and and i'll be honest, a little like titters and laughter.
(40:30):
And then I was like, man, he's been failed by
the system, and thank god he has an you know,
incredible athletic talent, and he can you know, he's not
going to go hungry. But what if he was just
like fifteen percent worse, he would not be in the
Premier League, he wouldn't be a national team player. He
would and he has not been given any education to
to you know, even know where his you know, where
(40:52):
his hometown is on a on a map of England's,
which is nuts.
Speaker 1 (40:57):
I struggled to find Indianapolis, to be fair, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (40:59):
I agree, but you can find Birmingham, Daniel.
Speaker 3 (41:05):
Are you saying that you also have trouble finding Indianapolis
on a map? That's why you agree?
Speaker 2 (41:11):
No, I think I know where Indiana is. If you
showed me the fifty states, I could find Indiana and
then I would just put indian Apps in the middle somewhere.
Speaker 1 (41:20):
That's actually how they did it. Yeah. They drew a
line down the center of the horizontally and vertically, and
they were like, oh, there's a river there, that's where
we'll build our capital. And that's how Indianapolis came to be.
Speaker 2 (41:31):
No joke, that's actually true. That's a fact.
Speaker 1 (41:34):
Yeah, No, that's a true story. Shout out to the
Indiana legislature back in eighteen thirty nine.
Speaker 2 (41:39):
I love it.
Speaker 1 (41:40):
I love it, all right, all right, Daniel, I think
we have delved adequately deep into the US men's national team.
I think the goal for the USMNT in this cycle
is to make it to the knockout rounds, maybe to
win one knockout game, make it to the last sixteen.
If we can go further than that, that'd be amazing that.
That's got to be the goal.
Speaker 2 (42:00):
You've made me want to move to you as bump
us up a couple of places. So in my loyalty hierarchy.
So you did your job.
Speaker 1 (42:07):
That's good to hear.
Speaker 2 (42:08):
Well done. Okay, we'll be right back after a quick break.
We're back on the way end. And don I want
(42:29):
to tell you a story about a soccer club called
Left Wing FC. I played for many years with Left
Wing FC, and when I moved to the Bay Area,
my sister and her wife were already playing on left
Wing FC, and it was told The story they told
me was that it was basically a bunch of activists
(42:52):
blocked the Bay Bridge as a protest against the imminent
Second Iraqi War, second war in Iraq. Talking about George W. Bush.
Speaker 1 (43:01):
This would have been two thousand and two, two thousand.
Speaker 2 (43:03):
And three exactly. So these were huge protests. You can
go back and find the video of this on YouTube.
I'm sure two thousand and two they blocked the Bay
Bridge and then a lot of these folks realized they
were really out of shape when they had to run
from the cops. And so as a result of this
sort of like kind of striking and sudden awareness of
(43:28):
their own decrepitude and lack of athleticism, they were like,
we need to start getting in shape, you know, for
the next protests. And they did it with soccer, and
they did it specifically with a set of values and
ideals which I think are really lovely. One the game
is open to all, the score is always too too
and we're we're not here to whin, We're here to learn,
(43:49):
you know. So I played with this group, and there
was a kind of an offshoot of this group that
was a little bit more competitive, so that we play
these games on Sundays and then say Wednesday nights we
would play our league games and those were competitive, but
the Sunday games were really just all about family and
friends and similar group. You know, people in Oakland is
(44:10):
basically like an extension of LA in some ways, and
so a lot of people were constantly coming and going
from LA. And there was a similar group formed in
LA called Footballistas. And about ten twelve years ago we
started something called Copacumunida, which is just alternating years either
in LA or in Oakland. Everyone from LA would come
up and we would you know, have a weekend of
(44:31):
soccer and parties, and then everyone would go the next
year down to La. Super fun. And I played with
this group for a long time, basically until my youngest
son was born. And then you know, the kind of
like lackadaisical California, you know, hippie activists vibe was like
really tough because when you have a young kid, I
(44:52):
need the game to start at the time it's going
to start, because I need to go back home, you know.
And you know these these acts ever was activists and
organizers and teachers and you know, and weekends they're just
like Lucy Goosey and I'm like, it's like tenet, we're
playing at ten o'clock, right, and you show up at
like ten o'clock and like no one's there, and they
like eleven o'clock people start playing, and I was just like,
(45:13):
and I moved to like meet up where you like
pay money to play and have to show up at
the time. And so I gave in to the kind
of strictures of domestic life and kind of stopped playing.
Now I'm going to all through this because last weekend
I was back in Oakland to visit my family, and
my nieces have started playing with Left WINGFC, and they're
(45:34):
seventeen and fourteen, and my sister and her wife still
go out and they don't play anymore, but they sort
of kind of watch and cheer, and so they were like,
til Downey, do Doney, you want to play with us?
And I was like, yeah, sure. And then something happened,
which is actually a great thing if you like, you know,
soccer stuff. I had not brought any soccer stuff, so
(45:55):
I was in this situation where I was morally obligated
to go buy soccer gear. WI is like, great, a
terrible thing. It's a wonderful excuse. You're like, you know,
I could either be a bad uncle or I could,
you know, go buy some shoes. So I went to
the soccer store in El Crito, just went a town
next to Oakland and and I'm looking, I'm looking, I'm looking,
(46:16):
and I want to spend too much, but I also
want to buy something I'm never gonna wear again. And
I have this conundrum, and I want to show you
these shoes, and I want to say prepfast by saying
I love the color. And two they were on sale,
and these are the shoes. But now, yeah, do you
see what they say on there?
Speaker 1 (46:35):
No, what do they say?
Speaker 2 (46:37):
So I can't say, maybe you'll maybe you'll recognize that.
Oh they're real Madrid shoes. They're real Madrid shoes. O.
Speaker 1 (46:45):
Yikes.
Speaker 2 (46:46):
Okay, so there were fifty bucks, which is a really
good price. They're purple, which I love right away.
Speaker 1 (46:50):
Look at look at my shoes.
Speaker 2 (46:54):
Oh those are nice. Those are really nice. Kind of
match kind of match, yeah, they kind of match. Uh
So these are a Da Sambas and they are purple,
and they have this one defect, which is that they
say real Madrid on them, and they have the real
Madrid logo on the back. And I'm just wondering don
this whole setup was because I ended up sort of
(47:14):
being like, well, the price is right, the color's nice.
No one's gonna know and then I just you know,
and and I get to be a good uncle. So
I went to go play to my triumphant slash competent
return to Action with love Wing FC, and it was
really fun. I played with my nieces and saw a
bunch of old friends. But I was wearing Real Madrid shoes,
(47:34):
and I was wondering, if you were in a similar situation,
would you have bought Red Say Man United shoes.
Speaker 1 (47:44):
That's gonna be a hard no for me. That's gonna
be a hard no, not least because of the no. Yeah,
I would not have done that.
Speaker 2 (47:54):
I would, But what if the other shoes were like
like these were half off? Because I presume most people
aren't hip enough to love purple shoes.
Speaker 1 (48:00):
I think it's more than most people are too hip
to love Real Madrid.
Speaker 2 (48:06):
Okay, we're talking about like the most popular club in
the world, and no disrespect to your club or to
any others, but like Real Madrid is objectively like a
gigantic club with fans everywhere in every little last milk
and cranny of this planet of ours. So I think
that's not.
Speaker 1 (48:23):
Accept Oakland except Oakland.
Speaker 2 (48:28):
That is true. Actually, I mean I will say that
a left wing FC. At left wing FC, there were
no Madrid fans because Madrid was, you know, this very
political team. Madrid is the team of Franco, to the
point where one time we were looking at maybe getting
in away jersey and our home jerseys were red obviously,
and I meekly suggested that we get white jerseys. And
(48:51):
I was like, nearly like excommunicated from this group of leftists.
I would have to do like a a kind of uh,
you know, self criticism. And I was like, look, I
didn't meet like Franco real Madrid white. I just met
white jerseys. But I had to explain myself. So I
(49:11):
understand maybe maybe maybe among left wing like no one
wears real Madrid gear. Certainly you don't see it much.
That's interesting. I think I made a choice and it
was an economical choice and it was a stylistic choice,
and uh, and I got to be a good uncle.
I got to be a good uncle.
Speaker 1 (49:31):
Definitely. It's definitely good to be a good uncle. And
it's good to have cool purple shoes. I wonder if
you could sort of decorate the madridness off of them
somehow to change the vibe. If you could have maybe
your niece's paint the white part of the shoes so
that it doesn't have the Real Madrid logo on it anymore.
Speaker 2 (49:51):
I've thought about that. Yeah. I like Madrid as a city, lovely,
great city. Yeah, thought it was an interesting question to
bring up, and uh, you know, unresolved.
Speaker 1 (50:05):
I just I don't think I feel that strongly about fashion.
In the end. I feel, you know, I'd rather wear
the colors and logo of almost any other team than
Manchester United. And I feel similarly about Real Madrid just
because they beat Liverpool in the Champions League finals so
many times over the years. So I uh, I would
not I would not. I would not have done that.
(50:25):
But also I'm less price sensitive than you are, and
that's that's a character flaw of mine.
Speaker 2 (50:31):
Yeah, I mean, you know I've splurged. Believe me, I've splurged.
You know. I went with my older son to the
Emirates and and and you know, uh, he probably can't
do a semester of college because of that, but it
was worth it, you know. So I just think I
just think in the end that no one has to know,
(50:54):
although I did just tell everyone and show everyone. Yeah,
but uh, I just want to choose that I would
be happy to wear later, you know, like because they're
purpleant they seem cool, at least to me. It's it's
my it's my my, my shtake my my vibe, my style,
and I didn't want to buy shoes that I was
never gonna wear again.
Speaker 1 (51:13):
So yeah, I get and I like that. I like
that we both wear Adidas Sambas well into our forties.
Speaker 2 (51:22):
Yeah yeah, I mean I've been a Dyas for since
I was, you know, a child, So yeah, I kind
of can't get over.
Speaker 1 (51:31):
Hey, listen, before we go, we need to give a
shout out to Button City FC. Daniel Ryan from New
Mexico wrote to tell us about his club team, which
just won their first trophy. It is a team of
game developers whose jerseys are absolute bangers. If you are
on YouTube you can see them now. We just wanted
to show you. It's very clear that these folks are
(51:52):
having a lot of fun, and I mean the crest
is special.
Speaker 2 (51:57):
Wow, it's a beauty. And they also I want to
in the photo that Ryan sent us, not only do
all do you all have these really lovely jerseys and
they're all, you know, doing that thing where you bite
the metal. They have a flag. That's so cool. Left
Wing had a flag. My friend Jacob probably still has
it hanging on his wall. I think it's important for
a club to have a flag. And you know, big
(52:18):
big congrats to Button CITYFC and Ryan, thanks for listening.
And yeah again, if you're on YouTube, you should, you should,
you'll you'll appreciate these photos for sure, John, I think
that's all the time we have.
Speaker 1 (52:30):
Yeah, well, it's been a pleasure, as it always is
to talk football with you. Up the men's national team
in the United States, and up Button City FC.
Speaker 2 (52:39):
Absolutely, and up Purple Sneakers, but not from Realdred. Well yeah, okay,
fair enough. Remember you can write us at away and
pod at gmail dot com. And thanks to our producer
Sean and Kurt who make everything work. John's you next week, Man,
can't wait.
Speaker 3 (53:00):
Didn't
Hey, welcome back to the Away End. I'm John Green.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
I'm Danielle Alercon. John. You missed an incredible episode last week.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
We really addressed some of the really thorny existential questions
in world football, like, for example, why does everyone hate
Marco Gorilla. We also analyzed the chances of a hypothetical
team made up of players of the Upper West Side
of Manhattan and wondered if they would do better than
(00:34):
Kurusa in the World Cup. So I want to ask you,
on behalf of all the people listening, why weren't you
here last week?
Speaker 1 (00:40):
Yeah? So I have an excused absence because I was
a witness in a federal fraud trial. I was contacted
by the FBI a couple of weeks ago. They called
me and they left a message, and of course I
thought it was fraud because why would the FBI contact
you and how would they even get your number? Well,
it turns out they get your number because they're the FBI.
(01:03):
They thought that was my question.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
I assumed that they can get your number. That wasn't
my question would be more like why would they call you?
And most stories that begin with I was contacted by
the FBI don't end well, but go on. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
To be fair, the FBI agent when he called me,
the first thing he said was you're not in any trouble,
And I thought to myself, I bet they say that
to all of their potential defendants. But it turns out
my image and name were used in a flyer, a
direct mail campaign for a pyramid scheme. Only I John
(01:39):
Green was not identified as an author, YouTuber or indeed
as my most important gig, the host of the away.
And I was identified as a pharmacist and as a
Level four participant in this pyramid scheme, such that I
was making over one hundred and fifty thousand dollars a year.
And so the FBI said, are you and fact a pharmacist?
(02:00):
And I said I think we both know the answer
to that. And they said were you a pharmacist in
twenty eighteen? And I said I was not a pharmacist
then either, and they said, all right, that should be
all we need. And then they called back the next
day and there were four Department of Justice lawyers on
the phone and they were like, hey, can you come
testify at a trial in Milwaukee? And I was like,
you know, guys, I wish you all the best with
(02:23):
this and everything. And it sounds like a lot of people,
especially really vulnerable elderly people, were defrauded by this, and
I know millions of dollars were lost and everything. But
I'm a pretty busy guy, and like.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
I have a soccer podcast. I don't know if you've
heard of it.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
Yeah, it's called The Away End. And they were like,
very nicely, they were like, well, here's a subpoena. It
turns out that when you're issued a subpoena, you can't
actually turn down the opportunity to come testify a It's
not an optional opportunity.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
Got it? Got it?
Speaker 1 (03:00):
So I found myself in Milwaukee, and I sat in
a great town. I sat in a witness room for
five hours waiting to testify, and then I testified, and
there were objections to my testimony. It was the full
court experience. I sat in the witness box, I raised
(03:22):
my right hand. I swore to tell the truth, the
whole truth, and nothing but the truth. And I testified
to the fact that I'm not a pharmacist and that
I'd never heard of this pyramid scheme. And they asked
me what I did for a living and I said
mostly I host the away n but I also do
some other stuff.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
And then I.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
Was cross examined for like fifteen minutes, where somewhat in
my opinion, condescending defense attorney kept saying, well, I haven't
read any of your books, and I was like, well,
that's I wanted to say what I usually say in
that situation, which is, well, there's still in print, but instead.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
There's a library down the block on.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
Exactly you can get one if you've it's not important
to you. Instead, I just said, that's all right, And yeah,
it was a weird experience, man, But I just found
out today that the trial concluded with the conviction of
these two folks. And yeah, I mean I wasn't there,
(04:18):
you know, to convict or not convict. I was just
there to tell the truth. That was what I kept
telling myself, that.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
The long arm of the law. Well, I learned most
of the things that I know about the law from
the movie my cousin Vinny. Yes, and so did you
get a sidebar? Because I feel like those are so cool, Like.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
There was no sidebar while I was testifying. However, my
friend was in the courtroom for the entire thing. Because
he flew to Milwaukee with me because he wanted to
have what he called a high contrast experience. And he
told me there were a number of sidebars earlier in
the trial, but I didn't get a personal sidebar.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
The little whispering between the judge. It's like, you know, yeah,
love it all right, man. Well, I will leave it
up to the listeners to accept or reject your excused
absence or your absence. But I think that's a legitimate reason.
And I'm glad the long arm of the law caught
up with these fraudsters who were pretending to be you,
(05:16):
and I guess making making you party to a scam.
That sucks.
Speaker 1 (05:21):
Yeah, I mean, it's not the worst thing that's ever
happened in my public reputation, but it wasn't. It's not great,
and I feel bad for the people who were defrauded,
of course, so of course, yeah, anyway, what's been going
on with you?
Speaker 2 (05:33):
Well, we soldiered on without you. Sean filled in. He
was called up, uh, you know, off the bench, off
the bench into the starting eleven, a kind of game
day decision. Did wonderfully ably and you know, like I said,
we tackled a lot of those those really great questions
that listeners have been sending into us. And actually that's
(05:54):
where kind of where I wanted to start today, if
that's all right, sure, because we got an email to
set it up a little bit, and I want to
shout out a deer departed friend of mine named Ibrahim Mattein,
who was just a wonderful guy. We were friends back
in Oakland and he used to wear a glove everywhere
he went, like just one glove. And one time we
were like him, what's up? What's up with the glove?
(06:16):
We were going out to this bar and he was like,
He's like, exactly what's up with the glove? And he
was like and his whole thing was like, ladies are
gonna just be like, you know, come over and just
you know, it's such a conversation starter, like oh and
what are what are you doing with one glove? And
not too you know. But he had a single and
relentless talking point, which was loyalty. He would always talk
(06:38):
about loyalty, and I think he meant it in terms
of family and friends, to whom he was very dedicated
and generous and loving. But I but it's something I
think about a lot specifically in terms of of football soccer,
because there was a thing that my uncle, my deod
Fredo said to me once which I hesitate to share,
(07:02):
but I will. He said, Donny, you can trust a
man who changes his politics, and you can trust a
man who changes his wife, but you can't trust a
man who changes his soccer team. I mean, you know,
I was like ten, you know, I'm like wife. Oh no,
(07:23):
girls are girls are goodies, you know, like, uh, but
you know the the uh in politics. I was like, well,
what do you mean anyway? Uh So that's the setup.
And I want to read an email we got from
a listener named Luke, and he said the following, because
I want to talk about loyalties in football, specifically in
honor of Iberhem and my tiol. Fredo says, uh. Luke says, hello,
(07:45):
Daniel and John. I write to you as a conflicted man.
I am a Canadian who comes from Italian roots, and
I am at a loss. I never thought I'd see
the day where Canada and Italy both qualified for the
World Cup. What's worse, Assuming Italy qualifies for the World Cup,
which is far from certain, Canada and Italy will have
to play each other. I have very strong feelings on
both sides. Any insight from you two would be very
(08:05):
much appreciated. Who do I root for in the World Cup?
Thank you? Luke? So? I mean, first off, you know
Italy might not make it, so you might be off
the hook. But what if it happens, John, what do
you think? What should we tell Luke?
Speaker 1 (08:19):
It's a tough one because I feel a certain connection.
My family's Irish, and I feel a certain connection with
the Irish national team. I feel a bigger connection with
the US men's national team. But I think it's where
you where you feel the connection. You know, sometimes you
can flip a coin and say like that's going to
decide who I root for here, and then the coin
(08:39):
lands on tails and you're like, wait a second, that's
not what I wanted. Maybe you do that, maybe that's
how you figure it out, but it can be really difficult.
And I know it's got to be hard for you
because you grew up in the US, but you were
born in Peru. You feel a deeper connection, i'd imagine
to the Peruvian men's national team than to the US.
But you've talked about how you have a fondness for
(09:00):
the US M and t I.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
Do I do. In my case, it's an easy decision.
And I don't know if this helps loop, but I
think of it in terms of who needs it more,
you know. And I really think a country like Peru,
like my country where I was born, like we could
use a win, you know, right, And I feel like,
you know, the US wins a lot. Us is a
(09:23):
powerhouse in you know, in global politics, bully, in global politics,
our economy, you know, our cultural power is everywhere, and
you know, like Peru gets like, you know, no love
and is a you know, kind of a global political
punchline now because we had just had our eighth president
in ten years, and so it's almost like, you know,
(09:46):
this kind of revolving door presidency that's kind of a
joke in political science circles and otherwise, like, you know,
folks don't know much about Peru. I feel like a
win for Peru would be super important emotionally for the country.
I know that because I was in Peru when when
we made the World Cup in twenty eighteen, and I
know what that meant to everybody across all political divisions
(10:10):
and class divisions and ethnic divisions. So you know, for me,
it wouldn't be hard, Luke. It would be like Peru's
playing United States Peru, no questions asked. Now in your
case Canadon and Italy, I mean Canada, it would mean
It's hard to say because Italy hasn't even made the
World Cup in the last two times, and so Italy
(10:33):
is a country with a proud and you know, important
footballing legacy, and for them to make the World Cup
is going to be huge if they can pull it off,
and for them to go far and you know, would
be great too. But I don't know, I don't know
what should we tell, Luke.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
I think that if you're going to base it on
who needs it more, I think Canada needs it more
because they've had less success and they actually have a
pretty good chance this year to go fairly far in
the tournament and they're hosting it. So if you're basically
on who needs it more, I think that's the call.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
Yeah, yeah, So in preparation for answering this, this is
and this is another bit of advice for Luke or
for whoever who's who's gonna watch the World Cup and
you know, you may or may not have a team,
but I always make my hierarchy of loyalties.
Speaker 1 (11:20):
This is key. You need it because when when Uzbeka
Stan plays Morocco, you need to know who you're rooting for.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
Yes, yes, you absolutely do, because you can watch the
game just for for for the spectacle. But it's more
fun to watch the game when you know what you want. Right.
So John and I both prepare a list. I want
to say off the top, though, John, these are not
I have no enmity towards no nation. This is not
(11:47):
a like you know, list of countries I like or dislike.
It's just the strictly footballing loyalties. This is not anything,
you know. I'm not trying to start a world war
or anything. And I do think that the World Cup
is one of the places that I find where I
find nationalism to be acceptable and appropriate, and I'm keen
(12:12):
on it. I love expressions of national pride and in
this context as long as they aren't sort of denigrating
other countries. So I just want to get that out
of the way, because I don't want people to write me.
I don't want Chileans to write me nasty emails, basically
is what I'm saying.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
Yet, John, you want to go through your list, Sho'll
go through my list. So first I've got the USA.
It's just it's where I'm from. It's you know, the
team I've watched the most over the last twenty five years,
and heartbreak and joy and everything. It's who I am,
whether I like it or not. I remember when I
(12:47):
was in the Netherlands. When I lived in the Netherlands
for a little while, someone called me incurably American and
I ended up using that in the Faultner Stars. And
I think I am a little incurably American, even when
I against my will. So USA first, Then second, I
have the Netherlands because we lived there and they've never
won the World Cup and they deserve. They deserve to
win a World Cup. They are incredibly strong footballing nation
(13:12):
that has changed the way football has played in profound ways.
And yeah, so I've got the Netherlands. Then I've got
CONCA CAF teams that aren't Mexico, so Currosow, Trinidad and Tobago, Jamaica, Bermuda,
all those teams. I always want them to do well.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
Costa Rica, the Upper West Side of Manhattan, anyone, the.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
Upper West Side of Manhattan, absolutely all those teams, So
all those teams that aren't Mexico. Then we've got every
African team every I'm going to root for every African
team next. None of them have won a World Cup.
It's incredibly exciting for all those countries to go far
in the World Cup. I remember when Morocco mane its semifinals. Incredible,
(13:55):
incredibly joyful. Then I've got Peru because of my friend Daniel,
Thank you. Than threw over all other South American teams
because of my friend, and because over the years I've
just developed a fondness for them, even though they're not
going to be in the World Cup this time. Then
I've got and this is going to be a controversial
pick in this family, I've got England because I watch
(14:16):
a lot of English soccer and so I feel connected
to a lot of the English players. I'm one of
my closest friends is English, and I want good things
for him. He's a high school history teacher. It's a
tough time to be a classroom teacher, and I want
good things for him.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
Then I've gotten mad at that. I'm not mad at that.
I like a lot of the English players. I watch
a lot of the Premier leagu obviously, so yeah, I'm
not bad at that all. Right.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
Then i got Brazil. I like Brazil because my books
were very successful there before they were successful in the
United States. And I'm very grateful to the people of
Brazil for supporting my work so early on when I
really needed it, and I will never forget that. And
then I have all other South American teams. South American
football is just a joy to watch, and I know
how much it means in South America, and I just
(15:00):
I like it when Argentina or Chile play well. I
like it when Columbia plays well. It just brings me joy.
Then I've got every Asian team, maybe a little less
of the nation's game than it is in South America
or Europe or whatever, but still really fun. No team
from Asia has ever won the World Cup. That would
(15:21):
be incredibly exciting. Then I've got all European teams that
haven't won the World Cup. Right, so if you haven't
won a World Cup, I'm interested in you. Then I've
got Mexico, my least favorite CONKA CAF team are great
rivals in football, But the thing is, when Mexico wins,
I'm not that unhappy, except when they play us, then
(15:42):
I've got Italy. Now this is going to devastate our
friend Sean, our producer Sean, who is himself Italian. I
also have other close friends who are Italian. I just
struggled to root for the Italian national team Sewan because
they're very defensive, they're very negative. I don't like the
way they play football. I feel like that may be
uh a legacy. That Yeah, that made me need some revising.
(16:04):
I'm also had it only very low on my list
for for a different reason, which I'll explain. But I'm
not sure that's still the case.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
But go on, we'll see. Just look at it. Just
look at how the Italians. I mean, first of all,
they're so handsome. You know, it's hard to very good looking,
very so Sean obviously, uh the uh if you look
at the Italian teams in the you know nowadays when
they play in Europe, these are high scoring affairs. They're
(16:32):
not you know, Cuttanaccio as they used to be. So
that might need a little a closer look. But this
is all about our prejudices and and and sort of
like what we you know, the truths we've inherited over
the years and hole deer, I have similar ones.
Speaker 1 (16:46):
So yeah, then I rounded out with Germany, France and
Spain Spain being in last place because they win all
the time and tiki taka boring, boring, no drama, no,
uh wow, nothing in it for me. I don't love.
I just don't love Spanish football. I don't love. I
(17:08):
don't and I'm tired of Spain and France and winning
every World Cup.
Speaker 2 (17:12):
Yeah, I agree with that. I agree with that. They're good.
They're good, they're good teams, They're wonderful teams.
Speaker 1 (17:17):
They're really good. They're really good, they have the best
players in the world, and so of course they're going
to win a lot. But I struggle to root for
them because because I love an underdog. That's there, Yeah, I.
Speaker 2 (17:27):
Mean to me, that's always like the tiebreaker there because
if you have, say, you know, two Asian teams playing
each other and they're in your same category, John, I
think you know, you look to see who's the underdog,
you know, or I mean the other deal. The tiebreaker
for me is like, do I have a close friend
from that country, you know, and that that's important to me, yep,
as it is important to you and I appreciate.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
Is there someone I can text about this? Is there
someone I can text whose joy I will feel vicariously?
All right, what's your wist? Daniel?
Speaker 2 (17:57):
Yeah, okay, So Peru obviously is the top for the
same reasons you described about the US. Then Colombia, where
my wife is from and I have so I have
two kids who are Colombian, and where I'm currently living,
and I happened to be here in twenty fourteen when
Colombia had that wonderful run and had this really powerful,
beautiful team and I loved it. Then any Latin American
(18:21):
team except for Brazil and Chile. Now Brazil because they
win a lot, and because I've played soccer with a
lot of Brazilians over the years, and they just don't
pass the Peruvians. That just might that just might be
my experience. But I remember playing like a seven aside
and six of the guys were from Brazil and it's
(18:42):
you know, they're all speaking fallen the Portuguese, and I'm like, okay,
you know, like I'm wide open here and no one's
passing me the ball because because they're Brazilians and because
they're so good and so they just don't see the Peruvians,
so you know, I just hold a grudge, you know.
So then Brazil, because I'm not I'm not. I just
sort of like any Latin American team first except for
(19:04):
Brazil and today and then Brazil, you know, got it.
Then Japan. We have some really close friends from Japan
and my son's my youngest son, his best friend moved
their family moved from New York to Tokyo, and we
went to visit a couple of years ago and it
was magical and beautiful. And I've played, I've had some
really incredible I've played with some incredible Japanese players in
New York over the years and in Oakland actually, and
(19:27):
and just really love how technical they are. Then Cape
verdie That's a shout out to my friend Janine, who
is Cape Verdian from the Boston area and it is
a dream of mine to see a game with her family,
and I'm hoping that that can happen. Then the United States,
and I you know, I'll root for the United States
(19:47):
in many situations, in most situations because I do. I
do love the team. I want good things for them.
I just always worry how US patriotism is misused then Ireland. Yeah,
because Irish are just like Ireland. Irish are great, great people,
great fans. They're basically Latin American. They're Catholic, they have
(20:09):
lots of guilt, they like to drink. I mean, they're
just like, you know, I'm just a fan, you know,
never been to Dublin. I love Irish writers also, so
you know, Ireland's a good pick. I feel like, then
any European team that hasn't won the World Cup for
the reasons we described, I would put a slight asterisk there.
And I'm like, of the many multiple wars that have
(20:31):
been intra European I'm usually against the the tiebreaker be
like are they an aggressor are they not an aggressor?
You know which is I understand that's like a kind
of false historical thing because all the countries have been
aggressors and victims at different points in history. But you know,
for whatever that's worth, you know.
Speaker 1 (20:50):
Last time out, last time out, were they aggressors? I
think is not a bad tiebreaker.
Speaker 2 (20:56):
Yeah. Yeah, It's like, you know, I love Russian littercy
so if Russia were playing in the World Cup, I would,
you know, and I like Russians. I have lots of
Russian friends, you know, but it's kind of hard to
root for Russia right now. I find it hard to
root for Russia right now personally.
Speaker 1 (21:10):
Yeah, I think that's a reasonable take.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
Yeah, And then I'm with you. I kind of I
think I would put this is tough. I have Spain
than England, but I could really do the other way around.
I really do like the English team. A lot of
a lot of players I think are really good, and
I like Okayosaka. So England, Spain right around there, and
then Germany, France, Italy and Italy I want to say
(21:34):
is close to the bottom. Because the first World Cup
game I ever watched was Bulgaria versus Italy in nineteen
eighty six. And I remember my uncle Bippet when Bulgaria tied,
like close to the end of the game and Italy
had played they were the reigning champions for eighty two
and they had played, you know, such a dreary, boring,
(21:57):
defensive game. As you were describing Bulgary tide and my
uncle I remember this very clearly, he clapped his hands
and rubbed him together and he's like, footballer, you know,
now we're gonna see what football is right. She was like,
the towns are gonna wake up and show us finally
what they're made of, you know, because they're Italians and
you know this kind of like. And I remember watching
(22:19):
the remaining like five, six, ten minutes of the game,
waiting for this thing to happen, and my uncle had
promised me was about to happen, and it never happened,
and I was like, oh, come on, like this sucks,
you know, And so I, like I said, I hold
a grudge. I love Italy. I have many Italian friends,
including our producer Sean, but that that shit is boring. Lastly, Chile,
(22:42):
and again I could spend the rest of the hour
naming all my Chilean friends, but you know, we have
a rivalry in Latin America, in South America, Brew Chile,
we have a rivalry. So she just got to be
at the bottom. Luckily, I don't think that's gonna ever
come up. You know, I won't ever see Chile. And
in a final, I did actually go with my great
(23:02):
friend Alejandro Sambra, the incredible Chiland novelist. He was in
New York and he invited me to the Copamenica Centennadio final,
which was Argentina Chile, and I refused to wear a
Chile jersey, but I wore a red Arsenal jersey just
to make him happy. We went to the game because
I love Alejandro. You know, I pretended to be It
was a boring zero zero that ended up in penalty kicks,
(23:24):
which they won, and I pretended to be kind of
nominally happy because you know, On's part of mine. So
that's my list, and Luke, I hope that helps. I
really recommend that everyone make a hierarchy of loyalties because
it really simplifies things. And you don't want to there's
so many games in the first round, right in the
(23:44):
group stages. You don't want to be in a situation
where you sit on to watch a game and you
don't know who to root for. So to this ahead
of time, prepare. You've got months to do it. I
think it's really important.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
All Right, we'll be back after a break to talk
about the US men's national team.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
We're back on the away end on Vanilla Arcone. John,
what's up with US men's national team? Talk to me.
Speaker 1 (24:17):
So, I've always thought of the US men's national team
as being a tremendous disappointment and a cause of misery
in my life. They do nothing but break my heart.
They infuriate me, They misplaced back passes, send Barbados in
on goal, etc. Right Like, it's not just losing, it's
losing to Trinidad and Tobago or failing to beat trinid
out in Tobago and then failing to qualify for the
(24:38):
World Cup. Right like, that's humiliating. Nothing against my Trinidadian friends,
but where a nation of three hundred and fifty million people,
we should be able to find eleven people who can
be trinnerd aut in Tobago in a game of football.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
Agreed.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
And so my feeling has always been the United States
sucks at soccer and always will And this is a
sort of ongoing misery in my life. And in doing
this research over the last week, I have realized that
I was wrong on every possible level. So, first off,
in the very first World Cup in nineteen thirty, the
(25:13):
US finished third, which is the highest ever finish for
any country outside of South America or Europe. The United
States is the highest finishing country outside of South America
or Europe.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
Full stop. Okay, to be fair, there was like twelve
teams in the first World Cup.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
Yes, I don't disagree with you, but still it's a statistic, Daniel,
And you can't argue.
Speaker 2 (25:35):
With statistics, not arguing, not arguing, you know.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
So then there's the fact that in two thousand and two,
when I personally desperately needed it, because I was living
in a furnished studio apartment in the midst of trying
to recover from a mental health crisis and the worst
breakup of all time. And you know, Daniel, I've had
some bad breakups.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
Yeah, yeah, I've seen this was this was worse than those. Okay,
all right.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
I was recovering from this mental health crisis, and the
US made it to the quarterfinals. They won a knockout
game against Mexico. It was incredible. And so when I
really needed the US men's national team, in fact, they
showed up for me amidst my loneliness and fragility, And
so I should be grateful for that.
Speaker 2 (26:17):
Can I jump in there, because I think it's important
to say that not only did they make the quarterfinals,
they should have won that game.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
They might Oliver won that game.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
They might have won that game. Look, they played against Germany,
Michael Ballach closer, Miroslav Closer, like you know, one of
the high scoring players in the history of the World Cup.
Their goalkeeper Oliver Kah made a number of incredible saves
and there was a blatant handball. Blatant handball to Greg Berhalter,
(26:50):
who we're going to mention his son later on took
a shot. It appeared at first that Oliver kind had
saved it, but later it was clear in replays that
it actually there was a German defender who kept it
out with his hand, with his left hand, and in
the age of ar that would have absolutely been a
penalty kick. Now we all know penalty case can be missed, etc.
But I'm just saying that, like it was a one
to one game, it was close, and the US had
(27:10):
a ton of chances. Landon Landnovan was in on goal twice,
one on one with Oliver Kahan and couldn't put it
away because Oliver Kon made some incredible saves.
Speaker 1 (27:20):
So yeah, Oliver kN played his butt off that game.
And I agree with you that that year something special
did happen, and something more special might have happened, and
in fact, getting out of the group in nineteen ninety
four was an incredible result. And then they played Brazil
and lost one nil, and Brazil should have had a
red card and that game might have gone differently, And
(27:41):
so you could argue the US has actually been a
little unlucky in World Cups. But actually where they usually
get is they go out in the round of sixteen,
which is about right, because I have to remind myself
the US men's national team just doesn't have that great
of player base to work from. Like I, of course
(28:04):
expect them to be very good, because our women's hockey
team is good, and our cross country skiers are good,
and we generally overperform in athletics because we spend a
lot of money on it in the US.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
But and then the US women's national team is incredible.
Speaker 1 (28:22):
The US women's national team is you know, certainly was
the best in the world for many decades, might still
be the best in the world. And so I have
this expectation that we should be competing for the World
Cup every time we go out, and then I'm devastated
when we tie trind Out in Tobago uh one one
(28:43):
in On October tenth, twenty seventeen, the day that my
book Turtles all the way down came out, thus ruining
my publication date not to make it about me. So
the truth is, in nineteen ninety four we made it
out of the group with a bunch of players who
played in England and Germany second and third and in
a couple cases fourth divisions. There was no professional soccer
league in the US at the time, and now all
(29:06):
of that has changed, right, Like, there is a pretty good,
not great, but pretty good professional soccer league in the
United States. We have good players who play in the
top leagues in Europe. We've got Timothy Waia, who's the
son of Liberian president and former great footballer George Way.
We've got Weston McKinney. We've got our Lord and Savior,
(29:27):
Christian Polistic. But I think we also need to remember,
like there are one hundred over one hundred English players
in the Premier League. There are over twenty Spanish players
in the Premier League. Like I'm not talking about who
plays at Real Madrid and Barcelona. There's over twenty who
play in England, and there's over ten Irish players in
(29:48):
the Premier League, and there are four Americans. This similar
underrepresentation in Italy and Germany and Spain. We just don't
have that many great players, Like we don't have a
standout goalie right now, we don't have a standout striker.
We aren't Brazil, and so if we make it to
the round of sixteen and then lose, which has historically
(30:10):
been approximately our level, I shouldn't be that disappointed. I
should understand like we are doing about as good as
we can do.
Speaker 2 (30:20):
Can I jump in there because I agree with you,
especially about the strikers. However, our two strikers have really
world class, outstanding names, true, just say them and they're
so fun to say. Regard though Peppi, I just I
love that name Fuller in Belligan again, like world class name.
(30:42):
Can they finish not consistently, but they're really fun to say.
Speaker 1 (30:47):
Yeah, No, I don't disagree with you. I think that
there's a lot to recommend it. A Haji Wright is
a great name, wonderful name. You know, We've got some
great names on the team, no getting around, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:57):
Yeah no, got a respect, full respect.
Speaker 1 (31:01):
I'm not sure about the finishing quality. And then I'm
not sure about our goalkeeping, which has historically been an
American strength. You know, the line in England was always
like those Americans, they can't play with their feet, but
they're pretty good with their hands.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
Yeah, which is which is funny because now goalkeepers are
are asked now to play with their feet, which has.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
Got to be very good.
Speaker 2 (31:22):
Shut the door on a lot of American goalkeepers. Shout
out to that guy who played at Arsenal for a season,
and then Michel was like, bye, I can't remember his name.
Speaker 1 (31:32):
Matt Turner.
Speaker 2 (31:33):
Oh, Matt Turner, poor guy, shot supper, you know, terrible
to his feet.
Speaker 1 (31:40):
Yeah. Yeah, we should mention, by the way, that there
are a few figures in American soccer that, depending on
your worldview, are either people who bridge the gap between
the game and the American public or people who make
it impossible for us to ever pete on a truly
(32:01):
international level. And among the top of them is Alexi Lawless,
the soccer commentator of former American defender Ginger famously yeah,
famously red curly hair flowing to his shoulders back in
the day. And you know, we've got we've got some
(32:23):
good soccer commentators, We've got Rob Stone. We also have
some bad soccer commentators like Alexi Lallis.
Speaker 2 (32:30):
So yeah, I've seen Alexi las play live. Actually, the
first game that I ever saw the World Cup was
the very famous, slash infamous US Columbia game in in
nineteen ninety four, in the game where at the Rose
Bowl where Andres Escobar scored an own goal that he
(32:50):
later lost his life was killed when he returned to
Columbia because of his own goal. Yeah, so I was
at that game, and I remember, so I'm of the
two of US. I can say that I've seen Alexi
Lawis in all his glory uh in nineteen ninety four
play and I agree with you on your your sort
of uh. There's a real blowhard quality to his commentating
(33:11):
and and most of what he says I find inane.
I don't think he's the problem though. I think that
the problem really is the hunger of the US players,
And I think that comes from soccer being a suburban
sport and a kind of suburban middle class sport. And
(33:32):
I think the kids who play elsewhere in the world
plet's play with more hunger. You know, there's more at
stake if you're you know, if you're Lucho Diaz, you
know from Columbia, Like you know, soccer is is is
your savior. You know, I had a friend and hit
her son played on a pretty good team. I think
(33:56):
it was a Red Bulls Academy team, and they went
to they went to play a few like you know,
they were like fourteen. They went to play fifteen games
in England. So it went on a tour. And she
told me later that when the kid came back, he
you know, he wouldn't say anything about the trip. You know,
it's like, how was the trip, Oh, yeah, it was fine,
went to this museum and he would say things, but
(34:16):
never about the games. And finally she was like, okay, son,
what about the games? And she was like, mom, we
never touched the ball.
Speaker 1 (34:28):
You know.
Speaker 2 (34:28):
So they're like the Red Bulls Academy team or whatever
it was. You know, the best players in New York
from the Upper West Side and elsewhere go to New
York and play like the aston Villa. Go to England.
I'm sorry, played aston Villa, you know, under fourteens and
just it's like, you know, men against boys, they just
never touched the ball. They get trounced and come back
with their tail between their legs, and I think it's just,
(34:50):
you know, the training is harder elsewhere the tactical understanding
is more sophisticated, and then in the case of lots
of places, people are playing with just more hunger because
they're lives depend on it.
Speaker 1 (35:01):
Yeah. I also think we have a big pay to
play problem in the United States, which is why soccer
is such a suburban sport in the US. Because you know,
in fact, we were preparing for this, our producer, Sean Sean,
if you don't mind coming on for a second, you
were like, I don't know a ton about soccer, but
I can't help but notice I recognize some of these names.
Speaker 3 (35:22):
Yeah, well, you know, as someone that probably followed it
closer in the nineties and growing up like all of
these people, I was like, oh, yeah, I mean these
guys played on the team, you know, back in the nineties,
or they're you know, coaches in the past ten years
or whatever. So yeah, there's definitely it feels. I mean,
(35:44):
maybe nepotism is not a fair word here, and maybe
you guys can get into some of the nuances of that,
but it's hard to ignore at the same time considering
the you know, very number of spots.
Speaker 1 (36:02):
Yeah no, I mean we've got Giorana, We've got seb Berhalter,
We've got Tim Wao. Like, these are famous last names
in American football and global football. And I think that
is not because of like fancy bloodlines, or indeed even
because of like nepotism on the level of, oh you
have a famous last names, you are more likely to
(36:22):
get selected for the national team. I think it's that,
you know, it's about the way we develop players. It's
it's a pay to play game. Like you have to
pay thousands of dollars to be in a year to
be in some of these elite soccer clubs, and those
who can afford the best training just have a better
shot of becoming the best players. If you'd given Daniel,
(36:44):
if you'd given Daniel the best club team in the
world when he was six years old and you told him,
which his parents would never do, unfortunately, stop paying attention
to school, Focus on football, you know, Do not become
a doctor, Do not become I'm a writer. Focus on
what matters. I genuinely think he would have had a shop.
(37:05):
And there's a lot of kids like that. To be fair,
I think they did say did not become a writer?
Speaker 2 (37:09):
Uh was actually said, so yeah, yeah, I mean again,
I hesitate to say that, I, you know, I could
have done what like gotten a junior college scholarship that,
you know, to play Birmingham Southern Like maybe you know,
(37:30):
I don't know, but I think you're onto something. I
remember talking to a friend of mine, college professor in Texas,
Mexican guy, his son goalkeeper, and one day his son announced, uh,
he's like mom, Dad, He's like, soccer is going to
lift this family out of poverty. And my friend was like,
(37:56):
looking around, He's like, what are you talking? Like for
a second, what in our life has led you to
believe we're living in property? Like I teach at the
University of Texas, Like you know, I have tenure, I
have tenure. Your mom is you know, is a profession?
Like you know, what are you talking about?
Speaker 1 (38:10):
You know?
Speaker 2 (38:10):
And then it was just this conversation was like look
all right, man, you know you go, you know whatever
you need to justify this to to, like you know,
give it your all, goo go for it. But like
you know, he told the story with this look of
just absolutely like like you know the things kids say,
you know, but I think there's something about that, like
that that that that level of passion of a player
(38:31):
like you know lutely as I mentioned earlier, Uh, you know,
suburban US kids don't have that, and we can thank
our quality of life for a lot of things, but
maybe not for that.
Speaker 1 (38:42):
I think you need a mix of passion and resources though,
because you have to have the resources surrounding you to
be able to develop into a good player like all.
You know, this is the problem with the Sierra Leonian
national team, right, is that they just don't have the
resources to develop their best players. And you know whereas
a country like Nigeria does have more resources to develop
(39:03):
their best players. So I think it depends. I think
you need to hit some kind of think. I think
that's part of what makes it hard, some kind of balance.
But I think in the US we're doing it all wrong,
and we're starting to get some things right, We're starting
to do a better job of developing players. But I
also think there's something to recommend, like not having a
(39:23):
system like they have in England, where you know, you
bomb out at the age of eleven, or at the
age of fourteen, or at the age of sixteen, and
you're told I'm sorry, you're never going to be able
to live this dream and you've put all your eggs
into that metaphorical basket, and like it's very difficult to
do anything else with your life. Like I see that
all the time as an AFC Wimbledon fans fan. We
get kids from other academies, from Premier League academies who
(39:46):
end up at AFC Wimbledon and they're really limited in
some of their some of their educational opportunities because they've
been told to focus so much on football. So I
think it's a mixed bag. I think it's a complicated,
complicated story. And the pure of a country, of course,
is not necessarily to make great footballers.
Speaker 2 (40:07):
Right, that's true. That's true, there's the that's that's absolutely true.
I remember seeing a video of Jack Grealish at the
England camp and someone help a map of England and
they were like, so can you point to where you're from?
And you know, he had no idea, He couldn't, like
he couldn't, He just didn't know, you know, And and
my first reaction was like, you know, kind of shock
and and i'll be honest, a little like titters and laughter.
(40:30):
And then I was like, man, he's been failed by
the system, and thank god he has an you know,
incredible athletic talent, and he can you know, he's not
going to go hungry. But what if he was just
like fifteen percent worse, he would not be in the
Premier League, he wouldn't be a national team player. He
would and he has not been given any education to
to you know, even know where his you know, where
(40:52):
his hometown is on a on a map of England's,
which is nuts.
Speaker 1 (40:57):
I struggled to find Indianapolis, to be fair, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (40:59):
I agree, but you can find Birmingham, Daniel.
Speaker 3 (41:05):
Are you saying that you also have trouble finding Indianapolis
on a map? That's why you agree?
Speaker 2 (41:11):
No, I think I know where Indiana is. If you
showed me the fifty states, I could find Indiana and
then I would just put indian Apps in the middle somewhere.
Speaker 1 (41:20):
That's actually how they did it. Yeah. They drew a
line down the center of the horizontally and vertically, and
they were like, oh, there's a river there, that's where
we'll build our capital. And that's how Indianapolis came to be.
Speaker 2 (41:31):
No joke, that's actually true. That's a fact.
Speaker 1 (41:34):
Yeah, No, that's a true story. Shout out to the
Indiana legislature back in eighteen thirty nine.
Speaker 2 (41:39):
I love it.
Speaker 1 (41:40):
I love it, all right, all right, Daniel, I think
we have delved adequately deep into the US men's national team.
I think the goal for the USMNT in this cycle
is to make it to the knockout rounds, maybe to
win one knockout game, make it to the last sixteen.
If we can go further than that, that'd be amazing that.
That's got to be the goal.
Speaker 2 (42:00):
You've made me want to move to you as bump
us up a couple of places. So in my loyalty hierarchy.
So you did your job.
Speaker 1 (42:07):
That's good to hear.
Speaker 2 (42:08):
Well done. Okay, we'll be right back after a quick break.
We're back on the way end. And don I want
(42:29):
to tell you a story about a soccer club called
Left Wing FC. I played for many years with Left
Wing FC, and when I moved to the Bay Area,
my sister and her wife were already playing on left
Wing FC, and it was told The story they told
me was that it was basically a bunch of activists
(42:52):
blocked the Bay Bridge as a protest against the imminent
Second Iraqi War, second war in Iraq. Talking about George W. Bush.
Speaker 1 (43:01):
This would have been two thousand and two, two thousand.
Speaker 2 (43:03):
And three exactly. So these were huge protests. You can
go back and find the video of this on YouTube.
I'm sure two thousand and two they blocked the Bay
Bridge and then a lot of these folks realized they
were really out of shape when they had to run
from the cops. And so as a result of this
sort of like kind of striking and sudden awareness of
(43:28):
their own decrepitude and lack of athleticism, they were like,
we need to start getting in shape, you know, for
the next protests. And they did it with soccer, and
they did it specifically with a set of values and
ideals which I think are really lovely. One the game
is open to all, the score is always too too
and we're we're not here to whin, We're here to learn,
(43:49):
you know. So I played with this group, and there
was a kind of an offshoot of this group that
was a little bit more competitive, so that we play
these games on Sundays and then say Wednesday nights we
would play our league games and those were competitive, but
the Sunday games were really just all about family and
friends and similar group. You know, people in Oakland is
(44:10):
basically like an extension of LA in some ways, and
so a lot of people were constantly coming and going
from LA. And there was a similar group formed in
LA called Footballistas. And about ten twelve years ago we
started something called Copacumunida, which is just alternating years either
in LA or in Oakland. Everyone from LA would come
up and we would you know, have a weekend of
(44:31):
soccer and parties, and then everyone would go the next
year down to La. Super fun. And I played with
this group for a long time, basically until my youngest
son was born. And then you know, the kind of
like lackadaisical California, you know, hippie activists vibe was like
really tough because when you have a young kid, I
(44:52):
need the game to start at the time it's going
to start, because I need to go back home, you know.
And you know these these acts ever was activists and
organizers and teachers and you know, and weekends they're just
like Lucy Goosey and I'm like, it's like tenet, we're
playing at ten o'clock, right, and you show up at
like ten o'clock and like no one's there, and they
like eleven o'clock people start playing, and I was just like,
(45:13):
and I moved to like meet up where you like
pay money to play and have to show up at
the time. And so I gave in to the kind
of strictures of domestic life and kind of stopped playing.
Now I'm going to all through this because last weekend
I was back in Oakland to visit my family, and
my nieces have started playing with Left WINGFC, and they're
(45:34):
seventeen and fourteen, and my sister and her wife still
go out and they don't play anymore, but they sort
of kind of watch and cheer, and so they were like,
til Downey, do Doney, you want to play with us?
And I was like, yeah, sure. And then something happened,
which is actually a great thing if you like, you know,
soccer stuff. I had not brought any soccer stuff, so
(45:55):
I was in this situation where I was morally obligated
to go buy soccer gear. WI is like, great, a
terrible thing. It's a wonderful excuse. You're like, you know,
I could either be a bad uncle or I could,
you know, go buy some shoes. So I went to
the soccer store in El Crito, just went a town
next to Oakland and and I'm looking, I'm looking, I'm looking,
(46:16):
and I want to spend too much, but I also
want to buy something I'm never gonna wear again. And
I have this conundrum, and I want to show you
these shoes, and I want to say prepfast by saying
I love the color. And two they were on sale,
and these are the shoes. But now, yeah, do you
see what they say on there?
Speaker 1 (46:35):
No, what do they say?
Speaker 2 (46:37):
So I can't say, maybe you'll maybe you'll recognize that.
Oh they're real Madrid shoes. They're real Madrid shoes. O.
Speaker 1 (46:45):
Yikes.
Speaker 2 (46:46):
Okay, so there were fifty bucks, which is a really
good price. They're purple, which I love right away.
Speaker 1 (46:50):
Look at look at my shoes.
Speaker 2 (46:54):
Oh those are nice. Those are really nice. Kind of
match kind of match, yeah, they kind of match. Uh
So these are a Da Sambas and they are purple,
and they have this one defect, which is that they
say real Madrid on them, and they have the real
Madrid logo on the back. And I'm just wondering don
this whole setup was because I ended up sort of
(47:14):
being like, well, the price is right, the color's nice.
No one's gonna know and then I just you know,
and and I get to be a good uncle. So
I went to go play to my triumphant slash competent
return to Action with love Wing FC, and it was
really fun. I played with my nieces and saw a
bunch of old friends. But I was wearing Real Madrid shoes,
(47:34):
and I was wondering, if you were in a similar situation,
would you have bought Red Say Man United shoes.
Speaker 1 (47:44):
That's gonna be a hard no for me. That's gonna
be a hard no, not least because of the no. Yeah,
I would not have done that.
Speaker 2 (47:54):
I would, But what if the other shoes were like
like these were half off? Because I presume most people
aren't hip enough to love purple shoes.
Speaker 1 (48:00):
I think it's more than most people are too hip
to love Real Madrid.
Speaker 2 (48:06):
Okay, we're talking about like the most popular club in
the world, and no disrespect to your club or to
any others, but like Real Madrid is objectively like a
gigantic club with fans everywhere in every little last milk
and cranny of this planet of ours. So I think
that's not.
Speaker 1 (48:23):
Accept Oakland except Oakland.
Speaker 2 (48:28):
That is true. Actually, I mean I will say that
a left wing FC. At left wing FC, there were
no Madrid fans because Madrid was, you know, this very
political team. Madrid is the team of Franco, to the
point where one time we were looking at maybe getting
in away jersey and our home jerseys were red obviously,
and I meekly suggested that we get white jerseys. And
(48:51):
I was like, nearly like excommunicated from this group of leftists.
I would have to do like a a kind of uh,
you know, self criticism. And I was like, look, I
didn't meet like Franco real Madrid white. I just met
white jerseys. But I had to explain myself. So I
(49:11):
understand maybe maybe maybe among left wing like no one
wears real Madrid gear. Certainly you don't see it much.
That's interesting. I think I made a choice and it
was an economical choice and it was a stylistic choice,
and uh, and I got to be a good uncle.
I got to be a good uncle.
Speaker 1 (49:31):
Definitely. It's definitely good to be a good uncle. And
it's good to have cool purple shoes. I wonder if
you could sort of decorate the madridness off of them
somehow to change the vibe. If you could have maybe
your niece's paint the white part of the shoes so
that it doesn't have the Real Madrid logo on it anymore.
Speaker 2 (49:51):
I've thought about that. Yeah. I like Madrid as a city, lovely,
great city. Yeah, thought it was an interesting question to
bring up, and uh, you know, unresolved.
Speaker 1 (50:05):
I just I don't think I feel that strongly about fashion.
In the end. I feel, you know, I'd rather wear
the colors and logo of almost any other team than
Manchester United. And I feel similarly about Real Madrid just
because they beat Liverpool in the Champions League finals so
many times over the years. So I uh, I would
not I would not. I would not have done that.
(50:25):
But also I'm less price sensitive than you are, and
that's that's a character flaw of mine.
Speaker 2 (50:31):
Yeah, I mean, you know I've splurged. Believe me, I've splurged.
You know. I went with my older son to the
Emirates and and and you know, uh, he probably can't
do a semester of college because of that, but it
was worth it, you know. So I just think I
just think in the end that no one has to know,
(50:54):
although I did just tell everyone and show everyone. Yeah,
but uh, I just want to choose that I would
be happy to wear later, you know, like because they're
purpleant they seem cool, at least to me. It's it's
my it's my my, my shtake my my vibe, my style,
and I didn't want to buy shoes that I was
never gonna wear again.
Speaker 1 (51:13):
So yeah, I get and I like that. I like
that we both wear Adidas Sambas well into our forties.
Speaker 2 (51:22):
Yeah yeah, I mean I've been a Dyas for since
I was, you know, a child, So yeah, I kind
of can't get over.
Speaker 1 (51:31):
Hey, listen, before we go, we need to give a
shout out to Button City FC. Daniel Ryan from New
Mexico wrote to tell us about his club team, which
just won their first trophy. It is a team of
game developers whose jerseys are absolute bangers. If you are
on YouTube you can see them now. We just wanted
to show you. It's very clear that these folks are
(51:52):
having a lot of fun, and I mean the crest
is special.
Speaker 2 (51:57):
Wow, it's a beauty. And they also I want to
in the photo that Ryan sent us, not only do
all do you all have these really lovely jerseys and
they're all, you know, doing that thing where you bite
the metal. They have a flag. That's so cool. Left
Wing had a flag. My friend Jacob probably still has
it hanging on his wall. I think it's important for
a club to have a flag. And you know, big
(52:18):
big congrats to Button CITYFC and Ryan, thanks for listening.
And yeah again, if you're on YouTube, you should, you should,
you'll you'll appreciate these photos for sure, John, I think
that's all the time we have.
Speaker 1 (52:30):
Yeah, well, it's been a pleasure, as it always is
to talk football with you. Up the men's national team
in the United States, and up Button City FC.
Speaker 2 (52:39):
Absolutely, and up Purple Sneakers, but not from Realdred. Well yeah, okay,
fair enough. Remember you can write us at away and
pod at gmail dot com. And thanks to our producer
Sean and Kurt who make everything work. John's you next week, Man,
can't wait.
Speaker 3 (53:00):
Didn't
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