July 18, 2026 • 43 mins
Lindsey Olin Graham (July 9, 1955 – July 11, 2026) was an American politician, attorney, and Air Force officer who represented South Carolina in the U.S. Senate from 2003 until his death in 2026. He was one of the most influential Republican senators of his era, particularly on national security, judicial nominations, and foreign policy.
Early Life
Graham was born in Central, South Carolina, where his parents owned a restaurant, pool hall, and liquor store. He became the first member of his family to attend college, earning both a bachelor's degree and a law degree from the University of South Carolina. While in school, he suffered the loss of both parents within about 15 months and took responsibility for helping raise his younger sister.
Military Service
After law school, Graham joined the U.S. Air Force Judge Advocate General (JAG) Corps, serving as a military lawyer. He served on active duty from 1982 to 1989, including assignments in Germany, and later continued in the South Carolina Air National Guard and Air Force Reserve. During his military career he reached the rank of Colonel and retired in 2015 after 33 years of service.
Entry into Politics
Graham began his political career in the South Carolina House of Representatives, serving from 1993 to 1995. In 1994, he won election to the U.S. House of Representatives from South Carolina's 3rd Congressional District, becoming the first Republican elected from that district since Reconstruction.
During his time in the House, he gained national attention as one of the House managers who prosecuted the impeachment case against President Bill Clinton in 1999.
U.S. Senate Career
Graham was elected to the U.S. Senate in 2002 and took office in January 2003. He won reelection in 2008, 2014, and 2020. Throughout his Senate career he served on several powerful committees, including Judiciary, Appropriations, Budget, and Environment and Public Works. He also chaired the Senate Judiciary Committee and later the Senate Budget Committee.
Key Political Positions
Graham became known for:
- Strong support for a robust U.S. military and interventionist foreign policy.
- Advocacy for American support of allies such as Ukraine and Israel.
- Leadership on judicial confirmations, including helping advance the confirmations of Supreme Court Justices Neil Gorsuch, Brett Kavanaugh, and Amy Coney Barrett.
Relationship with Donald Trump
One of the most notable aspects of Graham's career was his evolving relationship with Donald Trump. During the 2016 Republican presidential primary, Graham strongly criticized Trump, but after Trump's election, however, Graham became one of his closest allies in Congress and frequently advised him on foreign-policy and judicial matters.
Legacy
His supporters remember him as a skilled legislator, military veteran, and influential voice on national security. Critics often challenged his changing political alliances and hawkish foreign-policy positions. Nevertheless, he remained one of the most recognizable and consequential Republican senators of the early 21st century
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome in his verdict with Ted Cruz week in Review,
and it's so nice to have you with us. As
you know, normally we do the top stories of the
week and let you get up to date on what
you may have missed this past week. However, we're going
to do a special show today and is remembering our
good friend Lindsey Graham. If you missed Senator Cruz talking
about Lindsay after his sudden death, We took a moment
(00:22):
to talk about everything he'd accomplished in some really cool
behind the scenes stories. So with that being said, it
is the weeknd Review and it starts right now.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Look, this was a hard day. This was a shocking day.
I woke up, as so many people did across America,
with the news that Lindsay had passed away of what
has been reported to be a massive heart attack at
his home Saturday night. I was stunned. I had five
or six texts in my phone as I woke up,
(00:54):
and I just stared at them in disbelief. It did
not seem real. Lindsay was a good friend of mine.
Lindsay was he was one of a kind. He was
someone he and I did not always see eye to eye.
In fact, we battled on a lot of issues, but
we also agreed on a whole bunch of issues. And
we were close allies fighting for years uh to confirm
(01:19):
conservative judges and conservative conservative justices. We were close allies
fighting to defend the Second Amendment. We were close allies
fighting to support the men and women of the military.
We were close allies fighting to defend our national security,
to stand with our allies, to stand with Israel. And
(01:40):
we were close allies standing up to America's enemies, that
especially Iran, and and and Lindsay was someone he was
a force of nature. But his personality, I gotta say,
if you spent time with Lindsay, I think it was
impossible to dislike Lindsay. He was charming, He was funny
(02:02):
as hell, like just witty. For years, I used to
say to Lindsay and John Kennedy, I'd ask each of them,
I don't know which one of you is funnier, and
they'd kind of both sort of bow up their chests
and get mad at E and I Actually I do
have a theory. I think John Kennedy is the better
stand up comedian. Like, like, if John Kennedy and John
(02:25):
prepares a fair amount of his material, but when he's
delivering it, he could be a professional comedian, yes, But
but Lindsey was wittier just sitting there. He would fire
zingers that you're like it was, and many of them
were self deprecating. He did not take himself too seriously.
He would make fun of himself like crazy he did,
(02:48):
and it was you know, I've traveled abroad with Lindsay
multiple times. He loved our country absolutely with a passion. Look,
Lindsey wasn't married, he didn't have kids. Every ounce of
his life was the Senate. He would travel all over
(03:09):
the world. I mean, it's just what he did. He
was out, you know, I think it was beautiful in
some ways fitting. So he had just come back from Ukraine.
He'd been meeting with President Zelensky, came back to the
United States Saturday night. He was on the phone with
President Trump. And by the way, he was one of
President Trump's closest friends. And I say that without exaggeration
(03:31):
because Lindsay and Trump disagreed on a lot of issues.
But Trump loved the guy, and it was was hard.
Speaker 3 (03:39):
If you saw him.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
They're talking about him on Meet the Press He's like,
he kind of had like unfeathered access to the White House.
He goes out, he really did a lot of people,
but he was like, Lindsay just came over all the time.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
Look, Look, Lindsay was like the Trump whisper. He would
call Trump. He talked to him early in the morning,
he talked to him late at night. He talked to
them day after day after day. And Trump Trump didn't
always agree with him, but he would listen to him
and Lindsey. When Trump was really mad about at something,
Lindsey could kind of walk him back off that cliff
a little bit. Lindsey was like, and I've spent a
(04:11):
lot of time with Lindsay and Trump together, and the
bond they had was really special, and it was in
some ways almost a perfect distillation of his life. That
he is in Ukraine, he flies back to the United States.
He's on the phone with President Trump and Sunday morning
he was scheduled to be on Meet the Press. It
(04:32):
would have been his sixty fourth appearance on Meet the Press.
Speaker 3 (04:36):
And it's a.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
Lot in colleges. By the way, Meet the Press is
kind of like Saturday Night Live. If you're like a
celebrity being on Meet the Press. That's a number that
I would love to know what that is ranking compared
to other Republicans. You've done it a lot, but it's
not sixty something times.
Speaker 4 (04:54):
Now.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
I've done it a lot, but it's nowhere close to that.
And I try to be pretty deliberate. I do Sunday
shows when I've got a particular message that I'm trying
to drive, like, when there's a reason, I try to
be quite deliberate about doing it. Lindsey, Look, look, I
have two teenage daughters, I've got a wife, I've got
a family. I want to be back in Texas, you know,
with my family, and so a Sunday show there had
(05:17):
to be a reason to do it. Yeah, Lindsay, part
of what he was was just a warrior. Every day.
He'd go to the Sunday shows when the news were great.
He'd go to the Sunday shows when the news was
terrible and like, nobody wanted to be out there defending
whatever was on fire at that moment, and Lindsay was like,
I'll do it, and he would. Part of it is
he would do it in a cheerful, funny, affable way.
(05:39):
If things were a mess he'd kind of acknowledge, Yeah,
they're a mess, but you know, all right, it was
I literally have been been walking around in a daze
much of today because I mean I spent a lot
of time with Lindsay and we would go out and
I've been texting you guys.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
By the way, you shared a picture that proud up
on your phone. You guys were recently in Paris.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
So so, and this was just you know how iPhone
kind of randomly picks pictures.
Speaker 3 (06:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Now I'm sort of convinced our phones like spy on
us and know everything.
Speaker 3 (06:12):
Yeah, but yeah, that's that is accurate. I agree with
you on that one.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
But bizarrely enough, today my iPhone kind of midday popped
up a picture of me and Lindsey and Katie Britt
and Eric Schmidt, all four of us in Paris and
we're on a river boat and we're right in front
of the Eiffel Tower and we went for the eightieth
anniversary of D Day. It was an amazing trip. It
was a powerful, beautiful trip with you know, we got
(06:38):
to see these World War Two veterans who it's it's
the very tail end of their journey on Earth, and
the four of us are just arm in arm and
it was just beautiful. And I've been I've been texting
and talking to friends and colleagues, and all of us
are just going, this doesn't seem real real, Yeah, I
(06:59):
mean it's you know, I did an interview with a
reporter today who said, who will fill the void? Who
will fill Lindsey Graham's shoes? And my answer is nobody. Nobody.
The role he played in the Senate, he was universally respected,
but also universally liked and even adored by people who
(07:21):
disagreed with him. Passionately he could be by the way,
the guy was as effective a cross examiner as I've
ever seen. Lindsay was a South Carolina trial lawyer, and
he could. On the Judiciary committee, the two.
Speaker 3 (07:39):
Were committees together.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
So people understand, you guys, it wasn't just being like
centaers together. You guys worked on committees as well.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
We worked judiciary. We spent thousands of hours together. We
were on Senate Armed Services together, we were on Foreign
Relations together, and we just worked hand in hand on
a lot of issues. There are issues where we just immigration.
Lindsay and I were in very different places, but there
were a lot of issues when Lindsey was with you.
(08:08):
I don't know that there was a more potent ally
in the Senate when he.
Speaker 4 (08:12):
Was with you.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
Yeah, and it would he could be look it was
I can't count. There are a hundred different Senate Republican
lunches when people were having really passionate, sharp disagreements about
something and Lindsey would stand up and say something, and
he'd always have a joke and people be double over laughing.
(08:34):
There be times when people are like screaming at each other,
almost ready to like, you know, take a swing at
each other. Yeah, and Lindsey would sort of cut the
tension and bring people back to the task at hand.
You know, when I'm in d C fairly regularly, I'll
have dinner with other senators and there's kind of a
group of folks that I invite that are sort of
(08:56):
the like guys I like hanging out with. And Lindsey
was almost the auto invite, because if Lindsay showed up
at the table, your ribs would hurt from laughing. And
by the way, it wasn't just that he was like
telling jokes. He was just insightful and smart and he cared. Look,
look whether you are his customer.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
That's one of the things I don't think people understand
how much he loved this country you mentioned. Didn't have
he wasn't married, he didn't have kids. His family was America.
His family was defending America. I said this this morning
on Fox and Friends. He had a grand It was
a love story with the United States of America.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
Yes, I'll tell you, it was also with our military.
So Lindsay sosolutely. Lindsey spent thirty three years in the
Air Force, active duty.
Speaker 3 (09:43):
As a colonel. People don't know that he.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
Rose up to being a colonel. I did tell him.
I said, Lindsay, if the clowns at the Pentagon ever
try to give you a star, damn it. I'm going
to the Florida filibuster it. I ain't calling you General Graham.
You could be Colonel Graham, but just under there's a
hard ceiling. And and he basically agreed with me and said, yeah,
I sure hope they'll make me a general. They shouldn't.
(10:06):
I mean, I mean, that's like a classic he was.
And I've been with him both in the US and
abroad where we would meet with service men and women,
and he had a connection to the men and women
of the armed services, a love affair where they loved
(10:26):
him and I would see them come up and like
hug him, and he would. He viewed it as his mission.
I'm going to fight for you. If you're defending this country,
if you signed up to be in the military, I'm
going to fight ferociously for you. And that was it
was real, It was sincere, it was passionate. That was
(10:48):
a beautiful thing.
Speaker 3 (10:49):
You know.
Speaker 1 (10:50):
I think one of the cool things about his services country.
I've got a lot of friends that sign up after
nine to eleven, and in politics sometimes they get frustrated
with people that serve their country and they go to
Washington and everything is based on why I was in
the military.
Speaker 3 (11:04):
And you weren't. Kind of thing.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
He didn't use his military service that night, and a
lot of people didn't realize that. Number One, he was
a colonel until he passed away. A lot of people
didn't realize he was in for thirty years. A lot
of PEO didn't realize he was in the reserves while
serving his country. In Congress, he continued to be in
the reserves and to continue to do that, but he
didn't come in and go, well, I would I serve
it wasn't a trump card for him, and it was
(11:30):
it was. It was he obviously fought hard for military
and he fought hard for things in a state that
were related to military and military complex and bases. But
it wasn't his number one thing on TV, like, well,
let me tell you why because I served and you didn't.
He didn't use it that way publicly.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
Never.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
A lot and a lot of people that I know
that are in the military and have recently retired that
gave twenty twenty five years, that's what they liked about
him the most.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
Well, and look to understand Lindsay, he grew up in
modest circuit stances in South Carolina. He grew up his
parents ran a bar in a pool hall. And part
of to understand Lindsay's magic is he was like the
best bartender you've ever seen, who would smile and crack
a joke and and whether you were celebrating a great
(12:18):
thing that happened in your life, or you were there
weeping because your wife just divorced you, or you just
had a death in the family, and and he could
the charm that he brought, the sort of effortless. I
remember years ago I was at a Silver Elephant dinner,
which is the big Republican dinner in South Carolina, and
he was speaking there.
Speaker 3 (12:39):
And at the.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
Time, Ryan's prebus was the chairman of the r NC,
and I think Ryance was speaking at that dinner. This
was a while ago, but I think Ryance was speaking
at that dinner. I remember Lindsay got up and went
Ryan's previous, Ryan's previous, What the hell is that is
not like a French electric car, and like it brought
(13:04):
the house down. I mean, he would throw lines out
there all the time, and it was He also had
a special gift for I would say, earning the trust
of and providing really valuable counsel to extraordinarily volatile, larger
(13:28):
than life figures and two in particular, John McCain and
Donald Trump. Yes, now, look John McCain, I served a
lot of years with John. When I arrived in the Senate,
John McCain hated my guts. In fact, he was quoted
as saying I hate his eff and guts. Like John
and I battled in a bloody way. Yes, over the years,
(13:50):
John and I became friends. But John was you know,
in terms of the history of the Senate. John McCain
was one of those legends who have walked the halls
of the s And I disagreed with so many positions
John had. But but the man was a war hero.
The man fought for a country. He was He was
imprisoned in Vietnam, he was tortured, he denied early release.
(14:11):
I mean, he was larger than life, yes, and he
could be volcanic like John's temper.
Speaker 3 (14:18):
It was real. It was real.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
Oh, I had been on this.
Speaker 3 (14:21):
I've been on the other end of that.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
You've been on the other end of that, and it
is let me tell you, I the talking to is
that I received you earlier in my career were brutal
when I got them.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
Lindsey was John McCain's best friend in the Senate, and
he was the McCain whisperer. I mean, it was an
amazing thing. And Lindsey would kind of soften John's you know,
he come in and pound the hell out of someone,
and Lindsay sort of cut a joke and like, you know, men, Yeah, it.
Speaker 1 (14:50):
Was Joe Aberman said, he spoke Democrat and Republican. Well
is I think the way he described it he could.
He could, he could, and he could speak McCain, which
was really important.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
And he also speaks Trump. Like, look their times, just
like John McCain. We get really pissed off their times.
This is no secret. When Donald Trump gets pissed off
and when he's angry and he's like on a tear, Lindsey,
we kind of all say, Lindsey, go on in there
and sort of talk him down, and Lindsey could. It
was an amazing thing. He'd just sort of laugh a
(15:22):
little bit, and you know, Trump would yell at him,
and he'd make Trump laugh and it would just soften
the whole thing. He had a gift for that, and
it was not just because he wanted people to like him.
He had a gift because he was trying to get
these these great men. He was trying to move them
in what he believed was a positive direction for America.
And it was a beautiful thing to watch him do that.
(15:48):
I will say, Lindsey, some of y'all who listened to
Verdict may not know this. Lindsey Graham was the very
first guest in the history of Verdict, Like when we
had just launched this show. This show launched on the
first night of the very first Trump impeachment and the
show went from zero. Look, before we launched, we had
(16:08):
zero viewers, zero listeners. Yeah, it's skyrocketed up the charts
and it became the number one ranked podcast in the world.
And as we're doing it, and we would do it
every night. This was PB pre Ben. This is what
I was doing with Michael Knowles, who's a great friend
of both of ours. Yeah, and it would be every
(16:31):
night after the impeachment trial, we'd go and do a
Verdict that night and put it out real time. And
Lindsey came, all right, I want you to watch the
cold open for our show that Lindsey recorded as our
very first guest ever.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
All right, take a listen. This is again the cold
open Lindsey Graham, the first guest on Verdict back in
the day.
Speaker 4 (16:52):
Hello, I'm senner Lindsey Graham. Welcome to Verdict with Ted Cruz,
the number one podcast in the entire country.
Speaker 5 (16:59):
What is the fun guest, Welcome back to Verdict with
Ted Cruz. I'm Michael Knowles.
Speaker 6 (17:11):
I'm joined by not one, but two US Senators to
help us break down the most shocking day of the
entire impeachment trial. Senator Graham, thank you so much for
being here at VI. Here gentlemen. The last time that
we sat down, I was told this impeachment was going
to drag on for weeks. We were going to get witnesses.
We were going to get Bolton, we were going to
get Hunter Biden. This was going to get long and ugly.
(17:33):
I go to sleep. I wake up today and the
senators are voting no more witnesses. This thing could be
over next week. Senator Cruz, what happened?
Speaker 2 (17:42):
Well, today was a big day. And let me say, Lindsey,
thank you well you. I appreciate your coming. This is
late at night. We spent all day in.
Speaker 4 (17:49):
The setting and a lot of money on production.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
Well, this was you're right yesterday. If the vote had
gone differently today, this trial could have gone on for months.
We could have seen it drag on and on and on,
and it was a big deal. It was up in
the air, and today was the most important vote we've
had in the.
Speaker 3 (18:08):
Entire By the way, I love it. Even there he
cracked a joke.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
He's like, you're not spend a lot on production, like
he had to get his zinger in there.
Speaker 3 (18:16):
That's just what made Lindsay Lindsay.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
Well, and look, at the time, we were filming Verdict
in a basement studio about a mile from Capitol Hill,
and so we drove there after the day of the trial.
It was like midnight, and you went to this basement studio.
You walked at a dark alley and you walked down
these like concrete stairs, and listen, Lindsay and I at
(18:38):
the time were not actually that close of friends. We
had been more adversaries than friends. Our friendship developed over
the years. And as we're walking down the stairs, he's like,
I feel like Joe Peshi and good Fellows. Are you
getting ready to whack me? Because like we're like walking
into a dark basement in the middle of nowhere. And
(18:58):
he looks around. In our studio, we had this this
shag carpet out of the nineteen seventies. We had these
big old brown leather chairs. We had these giant microphones,
kind of like we still have the giant microphones. Yeah,
and he says on the show, the cactus don't yeah, Okay,
I miss miss our cactus. Our cactus is still our
cactus is still part of the Verdict family. But he
(19:23):
looked around and he said this on the podcast. He's like,
you guys are the number one podcast in the world.
Who the hell is number two? Some guy in a
van by the river Like it was. It was size splitting,
But but that charm, it had real power, Yes, because
(19:46):
it would cause people to listen. It would break through
and listen. He was not always joking. If you were
to think of the singular moment, what is the number
one thing people remember that Lindsey Graham did, And I'm
gonna suggest it was when during the Brett Kavanaugh confirmation.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
Here I was gonna say no doubt Brett Kavanaugh and
saving Brett Kavanaugh from the insanity of the left that
were accusing him of the most horrific crimes without any evidence,
making it up as they went trying to destroy him,
the same way they went after Clarence Thomas very much,
but in a TMZ twenty twenty plus year type of
going after him, just more vile social media. You didn't
(20:29):
have that with a Clarence Thomas, right, Like Clarence Thomas
was ABCNBC, CNN, it was mainstream. Now they were trying
to assassinate Brett Kavanaugh's integrity and they were using all
social media to try to accomplish it.
Speaker 2 (20:42):
Well, and Lindsey unloaded on the Democrats and it changed
the entire dynamics of the hearing. I want you, most
of y'all have seen and heard this, but I want
you to give a listen again, because I think there's
a real argument. Without Lindsay doing this, Brett Kavanaugh may
not get confirmed. Give a listen to Lindsay at the hearing.
Speaker 4 (21:00):
Are you aware that at nine to twenty three on
the night of July the ninth, the day you were
nominated to the Supreme Court by President Trump, Senator Schumer
said twenty three minutes after your nomination, I will oppose
Judge Kavanaugh's nomination with everything I have. I have a
bypartisan I hope a by person majority will do the same.
(21:23):
The stakes are simply too high for anything less. Well,
if you weren't aware of it, you are now. Did
you meet with Senator Diane Feinstein on August twentieth? I
did meet with Centa Finestine. Did you know that her
staff had already recommended a lawyer to dodnor Ford. I
did not know that. Did you know that her and
her staff had this allegations for over twenty days.
Speaker 5 (21:47):
I did not know that at the time.
Speaker 4 (21:49):
If you wanted an FBI investigation, you could have come
to us. What you want to do is destroy this
guy's life. Hold this seat open and hope you went
in twenty twenty. You've said that, not me. You've got
nothing to apologize for. When you see Soda Maron Kagan,
tell him that Lindsay said, oh, because I voted for them,
(22:12):
I would never do to them what you've done.
Speaker 2 (22:14):
To this guy.
Speaker 3 (22:16):
This is the most unethical sham.
Speaker 4 (22:20):
Since I've been in politics. And if you really wanted
to know the truth, you sure as hell wouldn't have
done what you've done to this guy. Are you a
gang rapist?
Speaker 6 (22:31):
No?
Speaker 4 (22:32):
I cannot imagine what you and your family have gone through. Boy,
y'all want power. God, I hope you never get it.
I hope the American people can see through this sham
that you knew about it and you held it. You
had no intention of protecting doctor Ford none. She's as
much of a victim as you are.
Speaker 3 (22:53):
God.
Speaker 4 (22:53):
I hate to say it because these have been my friends,
but let me tell you, when it comes to this,
you're looking for a fair process. You came to the
wrong town at the wrong time, my friend.
Speaker 3 (23:07):
Senator, you look at that frustration. That was genuine.
Speaker 1 (23:11):
It wasn't inauthentic, It wasn't something that was a pre
planned moment.
Speaker 3 (23:16):
It wasn't scripted.
Speaker 1 (23:17):
We see a lot of scripted moments from politicians these days,
and some of these hearings there it's all pre organized,
pre planned protesters involved. That was real and raw and
as you mentioned, and I think you should explain a
little bit more, this forced and change the direction that
hearing was going.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
Well, and listen Lindsey's career. For a lot of his career,
he's been a very bipartisan senator. Senator, He's worked with
a lot of Democrats. As he noted, he voted to
confirm both Justice Sotoma Ora and Justice Kagan, and the
Democrats were all happy with him. They were all lovey
dove And so when he says, look, I would never
do to them what you're doing to Brett Kavanaugh, that
(23:57):
had power to it. I was sitting there at the
DAAs when when Lindsay was unloading, and you could have
heard a pin drop in the room, you know, the
silence when he asked Brett Kavanaugh, Are you a gang rapist?
And Brett says no, and Lindsey's just silent for about
four seconds, and the entire silence, there's not a peep
(24:21):
in the hearing room. That was a riveting moment. And
by the way, you mentioned Clarence Thomas. Clarence Thomas is
on the Supreme Court because during his confirmation hearing, the
Democrats did the same thing, which is they sand bagged
him with allegations from Anita Hill. And the American people
heard Anita Hill's testimony in Clarence Thomas's and by a
(24:42):
margin of about two to one, they believe Justice Thomas.
The same thing happened with Brett Kavanaugh. That's why Clarence
Thomas got confirmed. That's why Brett Kavanaugh got confirmed. And
Lindsey's that moment there played I think a real part
in people assessing and saying, wait a second, this is
not a real inquiry, this is not a fair assessment.
This is a political slime job. These guys had these
(25:05):
allegations for weeks, they sat on them, they held them back.
This is it is a drive by shooting by partisans
who just want power. That was what was effective. And
I'll tell you. So my mom, Ben, you know my mom.
She's love my mom. She's ninety one, about to be
ninety two in November. She is as conservative it can be.
(25:25):
My mom thinks you and I are little wobbly. She
is a rock rib conservative.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
By the way, I don't know if I ever said
this on the show, I've never had more fun hanging
out with your mom than than your reelection night, watching
her be excited, watching her son not a senator, her
son when reelection, and just the beaming joy.
Speaker 3 (25:47):
On her face. You weren't there when in that part.
Speaker 1 (25:50):
You were busy, and she came in and she was
just so happy, and I was like, this might be
my favorite moment of the whole night.
Speaker 2 (25:59):
So my mom, prior to the Kavanaugh hearing, was not
a Lindsay Graham fan. She mostly knew Lindsay because he
and I had battled a lot on immigration. We had
very different views on immigration, and so that's, you know,
anyone who fights her son my mom doesn't like. And
so when that cross examined examination ends, my mother sends
(26:22):
me a text and says, Okay, I now love Lindsey Graham,
And I actually got up a few minutes later and
I walked over to Lindsay and I pulled out my phone.
I said, Lindsay, here's a text I just got from
my mom, and I clicked on it and he cracked
up laughing, and then my mother proceeded to go to
(26:45):
his website and to give him thirty five dollars?
Speaker 3 (26:50):
Are you serious that I am?
Speaker 2 (26:52):
I am serious? And I told him, I said, Lindsay,
in my entire time in politics, my mother's never contributed
to my campaign. She's given you money like it was.
And he loved that. But it was look he could
be when he was engaged in a fight. He was
as effective a warrior as you could see. And that
(27:18):
was powerful. And it was he and I worked together. Look,
you look last summer the Working Family's tax cut, the
big Reconciliation bill, which we've talked a lot about on
this podcast. I still think it's the legislation that has
the most conservative victories in it of any bill that's
ever passed into law. Yeah, Lindsay was the chairman of
(27:40):
the Budget Committee, and the Budget committee plays a critical
part in reconciliation has to pass the budget resolution. To
begin with, Lindsay and I worked hand in hand I
don't know that we win that reconciliation battle without Lindsay's
leadership as chairman of the Budget Committee, and he would
there were times when people are you know, look, our
(28:02):
majority is not always rock solid. You have people that
run off this way, run off that way, and to
get fifty votes to yes is really really hard. And
Lindsey was awfully good at it.
Speaker 3 (28:18):
He was all making friends.
Speaker 1 (28:20):
I mean, that's one of the lost arts in politics,
I think, is just how good he was at making
friends and making friends that he disagreed with in his
own party and making friends on other side. But he
also had just a way of understanding when there's moments
to laugh and not.
Speaker 3 (28:37):
I told this earlier. I was young. I don't think
I've ever told you this story.
Speaker 1 (28:42):
It was probably two thousand and five or six seven,
somewhere in there, and it was something to deal with
Iraq or Afghanistan. And I was on I think it
was Shepherd Smith's show on Fox back in the day,
and they asked me directly about Lindsay Graham and something
he'd said. They played the soot come out of it,
asked me, and I was pretty blunt, and I was like,
(29:03):
I strongly disagree with him.
Speaker 3 (29:04):
YadA YadA, YadA. I get done.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
And it was one of those you don't know it's
coming moments, welcome to Live TV, and so I gave
my assessment.
Speaker 3 (29:12):
I get done.
Speaker 1 (29:13):
Center within probably a minute. I was not out of
the seat yet. My phone rings. Now, if you're twenty something,
in your phone rings, and it's a senator like that's like,
it's you know, you answer right? So I answer it.
It's two two number and it's Lindsey Graham. I don't
know who he got my number from. And I answer
and he starts just unloading on me, telling me why
(29:35):
I'm wrong.
Speaker 3 (29:36):
But it was all a ruse.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
He was messing with me because he was down the
hall in the green room at Fox, knowing he was
gonna see me in twenty seconds. So I'm on the
phone walking out of the studio and it's you know,
the hallway there, it's a short hallway you go down
make it's on the left, green rooms on the right,
and I'm hearing the conversation in my ear delayed, and
I'm hearing his voice and I walk in and we'd
(29:59):
never met before.
Speaker 3 (30:00):
I never had met before that moment.
Speaker 1 (30:02):
And I'm on the phone with him and he looks
at me and goes, gotcha, And that.
Speaker 3 (30:05):
Was it, Like he didn't mind that was ripping on him.
And I walked in there.
Speaker 1 (30:09):
We laughed and he talked to me for a minute,
but he literally just wanted to mess with me. Like
it was like the perfect you know joke there, and
that's how he was. But like after that, it was hard.
He was smart. It was harder for me to go
after him on TV because I liked him personally from
that moment of him.
Speaker 3 (30:26):
He could have been a jerk, he wasn't.
Speaker 1 (30:28):
He saw the humor in the moment and was like,
I'm gonna mess with this guy, and it was.
Speaker 3 (30:32):
It was a brilliant political move.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
And that's who Lindsay was. I don't know a single
senator out of ninety nine other senators who didn't didn't
like genuinely like Lindsay and consider him a friend like
all of them. And it was a gift. And by
the way, I've been in Senate lunches, and we've talked
about a lot of those Senate lunches on this podcast
where things got raw and bare knuckles and on foreign policy, look,
(31:02):
Lindsey was an interventionist. He was an aggressive interventionist in
the style of John McCain. He believed it, it was honest,
but he was very much an interventionist. We've had lunches
where Lindsey and Ran Paul would scream at each other
and Lindsay Rand is very much an isolationist Lindsay and
by the way, I'm in the middle of both of them,
(31:22):
I agree with with with with Lindsay about half the
time and Rand about half the time. I've also been
in lunches where Lindsay and JD Vance would be screaming
at each other. JD is is much more of an
isolationist and disagreed with Lindsay. Like on Ukraine. I mean
they would go at it where where JD Vance wanted
us to get the hell out of Ukraine yesterday, Lindsey
(31:45):
was passionate on the other side, and they would slug
it out.
Speaker 5 (31:48):
You know.
Speaker 2 (31:48):
JD put out a very kind and gracious tweet today
actually telling that story, saying, look, you know, Lindsay has
yelled at me, but I respected him and he was
my friend. And actually I saw a clip today that
I never seen before. So Blake Masters, Blake Masters ran
for Senate in Arizona. I like Blake. I went and
campaigned for him. He didn't win. I wish Blake had won,
(32:10):
but he did not. Uh and uh, you know, Blake
is is more on the isolation side of things. He's
more with with Rand and JD. And on Ukraine, he
was a vocal opponent of the Ukraine conflict. And it's
interesting Lindsey went to campaign for Blake and and they
asked him, all, wait a second, you guys disagree on Ukraine.
(32:31):
I want you to listen to to Lindsay's response as
the he's there campaigning for a guy with whom he
has sharp disagreements on foreign policy.
Speaker 4 (32:39):
Give a listen, remember my race, Remember Lindsey Graham dot com.
Anybody watched Sean Hannity. So I was on Sean Hannity
three nights a week. Blake saying they're gonna shoot my
dog tomorrow at midnight. If you don't give me I
know you're living on cat food, but you can. You
(33:00):
can spare a few bucks here, people responded. My opponent
raised one hundred and thirty two million dollars against me,
the most in the history of the Senate. Man, why
have across the cabin. They hated my guts. They wanted
to destroy the guy's life. I sort of got in
the way. That's the way these people are, right, There's
(33:21):
nothing they won't do for power. So the reason people
responded to me is you don't have to agree with
me all the time, but when there's a fight, I
will show up.
Speaker 3 (33:31):
He shows up. He's not lying when he says that.
Speaker 2 (33:34):
Yeah, And look, he would joke all the time, like
when he was running for reelection the last time. He
would go on on Hannity, to go on Fox News
and he'd say Lindsey Graham dot Comlinsy Graham dot Comlinsy
Graham dot com. And he was shameless. I mean, he
was like, Hi, my name is Lindsay Graham dot com.
He would raise money and he'd say he'd say, if
you're a little old lady and you're trying to feed
your cat, don't feed your cat tonight, go and give
(33:55):
me money instead. And it would people would crack up,
but they would do it. But so Blake Masters who
lost that race. He tweeted out that video. But here's
what he said in his tweet, which is interesting. Blake said,
quote once when a donor asked Senator Graham, why are
you helping Blake given how much you two disagree on
(34:16):
foreign policy. He replied with a grin. So Blake's wrong
about Ukraine. Who gives a shit. We aren't here to
talk about how correct I am all the time. We're
here to talk about getting the Senate majority because I
want to be chairman of my committees. And Blake continues,
(34:37):
Lindsey was cheerful and determined, and he understood that he
played a team sport. May his memory be eternal. That's
pure Lindsey Graham. He could disagree with you, and Lord
knows he and I did, but it wasn't personally, wasn't
angry with you, and and that sort of joy. Look,
it is amazing the number of times you look at
(34:59):
his relationship with Trump. Lindsay was a huge Trump critic. Yeah,
and he ran against him, said he was going to
destroy the world. But by the way, you look at me,
all right, So in the presidential look, Lindsay ran against Trump,
ran against me. And in the course of that campaign,
Lindsay said, you know, if you killed Ted on the
(35:20):
Senate floor, and the Senate was the jury, nobody could
convict you. I gonn admit that. That was funny as hell.
I like laughed, I'm like, all right, that's a hell
of a line. Now, Lindsay ended up not prevailing in
that race, obviously, he dropped out, and after Lindsay dropped out,
he endorsed my campaign. So he came and endorsed my campaign,
(35:41):
and he campaigned with me for president twenty sixteen. And
and Lindsey said at the time, he and I were
doing a fundraiser together, and I stood up and I said,
you know, I got to say, this is the first
time in my life I've ever been endorsed by someone
who's publicly called for my murder. And that was kind
(36:02):
of how Lindsay was. He He had, you know, in
the same time. You know, he and Trump would battle
like crazy, but Trump just liked him and it was real,
and Lindsey liked Trump. Lindsey saw the power. Look, Trump
has a cast iron backbone, he has courage, and and
Lindsey saw that the historic value of President Trump's strength,
(36:29):
and it was really important. Now, all right, I'll give
you another story from from first term Trump. We were
having a disputed about funding the border wall, and the
President wanted to sign and was going to sign an
emergency declaration and use the emergency powers of the president
to shift funding to the border wall. I came up
with a different legal theory that would let him build
(36:50):
the border wall, let him build every penny of the
border wall one hundred percent, but not do it through
an emergency declaration. And my concern was, look, if you
create the precedent for doing this the next Democrat president,
the next if we have a President Bernie Sanders or
President Elizabeth Warren, they're going to declare an emergency on
climate change. They're gonclare an emergency on gun violence and
(37:12):
use it to justify all sorts of bad policies. So
I had a second theory that would have done one
hundred percent of the upside without the downside of the
bad president. And I pitched it to Lindsay, and Lindsay
was like, Yeah, that makes sense. And so Lindsey and
I spent a day trying to call the President and
pitch this theory. And at the time, the White House
(37:33):
staff did not want Lindsay and me to talk to
the president, so they were blocking us. They were preventing
us from getting through to the president.
Speaker 3 (37:40):
The oldest trick in Washington is that one right there.
Speaker 2 (37:44):
And so we were sitting there, it was getting to
be maybe seven seven thirty at night. We were on
the Senate floor, and we were both frustrated because for
twenty four hours we'd been calling the president, we hadn't
gotten through. And I finally said to lindsay, screw it,
let's get in the car and drive over there. Like
what And I'm like, yeah, let's just go over there
right now. He's like all right, let's go. And then
oddly enough, a third senator jumped in the car, Ben Sass,
(38:07):
who was another friend, but he was just kind of
standing there, and Ben's like, oh, I'll go. And so
the three of us drove over and we're literally we're
not invited. We're uninvited.
Speaker 3 (38:16):
We're just you're not list.
Speaker 1 (38:17):
And by the way, people need to understand, there's two
gates you go through and if you're not on the list,
they look at you like you're an alien.
Speaker 2 (38:24):
Okay, So we're driving over and and Lindsey calls and
actually gets Trump on the phone as we're driving over,
and he's like, yeah, we're come over right now. And
Trump was getting ready to have dinner with Milania, and
it was like their first like couple's dinner, a romantic
dinner in like a month. And Lindsey's like, no, we
(38:44):
need to see you right now. And so we go
up to the residence and Trump is pissed. He is
madder than a hornet because like his whole date night
has been blown up by us going over to the
White House. And so we come over there and we're
up in the residence and and Trump brings up a
couple of lawyers from the White House Counsel's office, and
(39:04):
and they're smart guys, but they were on the other
side of this. And we begin arguing, and I got
to say, look, Lindsey could judge the prevailing wins really quickly,
and and he could see that Trump was not buying
what I was selling that particular night. So Lindsey very
quickly abandons me. He just jumps out, and he goes
and sits with with with with Trump, and I'm arguing
(39:25):
with this lawyer from the White House Council. I mean,
we are slugging it out. I mean it's uh, it
was a bare knuckle fight. And Lindsey turns to Trump
and said, who do you think is winning. How they
do it, and like Trump's kind of laughing, and they're
almost like color commentators watching us have this legal argument.
(39:45):
And then in the middle of it, Trump calls one
of one of the staff of the White House and says,
bring us some of those pigs in a blanket, those
those those little ordures. So they bring a plate of
pigs in the blanket and this goes on for like
three hours.
Speaker 3 (39:59):
No, so you guys straight up Trump the date night.
Speaker 2 (40:02):
Yeah, it blew up the date night. We ended up
not being persuasive that night. Although I will say lindsay,
cut me loose so fast and any job. But he didn't,
like he admitted after he is like, yeah, you weren't winning,
So I wasn't gonna be with that. He's like, I'll
be behind you, way way way behind you.
Speaker 3 (40:20):
Right behind you. Yeah, around the corner.
Speaker 2 (40:22):
But it was the sort of thing that's that was
very much Lindsey Graham, and it's part of why Trump
listened to him, because he didn't win every argument, but
he was there to go again and to go again,
and it was really effective. And I'll tell you where
it mattered enormously. There's no area Lindsay and I worked
(40:44):
more closely on than Iran and standing up to the
incredible danger to America. If the Iyotola ever gets a
nuclear weapon, I think it's an existential threat to America.
I think if the Iatola who chanced death to America
it's a nuclear weapon, I think the odds are unacceptably
high that that hundreds of thousands or even millions of
(41:06):
Americans would be murdered. And Lindsay agreed with that, and
he and I wereked hanned in hand over and over
and over again, talking with President Trump every week, sometimes
every day, saying you're exactly right to stand up to Iran.
The President has said repeatedly Iran will never get a
nuclear weapon. There will be zero enrichment. And Lindsey was
(41:28):
an incredible ally UH that that that I've was fighting
alongside and the President listened to us, which is part
of why we've seen, UH seen the President's incredible strong
leadership UH taking out Iran's military capacity and stopping them
from getting nuclear weapons. That that that was one of
(41:49):
the most important legacies Lindsay ever had.
Speaker 3 (41:51):
It's it's really incredible.
Speaker 1 (41:53):
We're gonna do something really fun this week as well,
that first podcast that you did with your first guests
was Lindsay Graham. We're gonna put that out this week,
so look for that on the feed as well. Senator,
I'm so glad you got to talk about your friend.
I mean this so sincerely. I'm so sorry for your loss.
When you lose a friend, I've lost too many you lose,
especially a sudden like this.
Speaker 3 (42:14):
It is gut wrenching.
Speaker 1 (42:15):
Hug your family, Hug your friends, call your friends, check
on your friends. I say that often to people you
just never know. And and I'm glad You've got to
spend so much quality time with him.
Speaker 2 (42:28):
Well, he will be missed. He left a legacy that
was extraordinary. And I will say, whether you agreed with
him or disagreed with him, Lindsey loved this country and
he devoted every waking moment of his life to fighting
for this country. That that was his mission. And I
(42:50):
admired that. I admired that it was real, it was genuine,
and he made a profound difference. It is a good
reminder Lindsay was just seventy one years old. He was
full of energy and vigor. To be honest, if I
were to pick one of my colleagues who was not
going to be making not gonna make it. Lindsey would
not have been on the list. He had the energy
(43:12):
that that he was unstoppable at energy. And it's a
good remindered all of us that that that none of
us are guaranteed to be here tomorrow. So so hug
your family, hug your kids, and and say thanks to
God for the for the privilege of living in a
time of consequence and and and making a difference in
our country. And I will say this, Lindsey Graham made
(43:34):
an enormous difference for our country.
Speaker 3 (43:36):
Amen to that as always.
Speaker 1 (43:38):
Thank you for listening to Verdict with Center Ted Cruz
Ben Ferguson with you don't forget to deal with my podcast,
and you can listen to my podcast every other day
you're not listening to Verdict or each day when you
listen to Verdict. Afterwards, I'd love to have you as
a listener to again, Ben Ferguson Podcasts, and we will
see you back here on Monday morning.
Welcome in his verdict with Ted Cruz week in Review,
and it's so nice to have you with us. As
you know, normally we do the top stories of the
week and let you get up to date on what
you may have missed this past week. However, we're going
to do a special show today and is remembering our
good friend Lindsey Graham. If you missed Senator Cruz talking
about Lindsay after his sudden death, We took a moment
(00:22):
to talk about everything he'd accomplished in some really cool
behind the scenes stories. So with that being said, it
is the weeknd Review and it starts right now.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Look, this was a hard day. This was a shocking day.
I woke up, as so many people did across America,
with the news that Lindsay had passed away of what
has been reported to be a massive heart attack at
his home Saturday night. I was stunned. I had five
or six texts in my phone as I woke up,
(00:54):
and I just stared at them in disbelief. It did
not seem real. Lindsay was a good friend of mine.
Lindsay was he was one of a kind. He was
someone he and I did not always see eye to eye.
In fact, we battled on a lot of issues, but
we also agreed on a whole bunch of issues. And
we were close allies fighting for years uh to confirm
(01:19):
conservative judges and conservative conservative justices. We were close allies
fighting to defend the Second Amendment. We were close allies
fighting to support the men and women of the military.
We were close allies fighting to defend our national security,
to stand with our allies, to stand with Israel. And
(01:40):
we were close allies standing up to America's enemies, that
especially Iran, and and and Lindsay was someone he was
a force of nature. But his personality, I gotta say,
if you spent time with Lindsay, I think it was
impossible to dislike Lindsay. He was charming, He was funny
(02:02):
as hell, like just witty. For years, I used to
say to Lindsay and John Kennedy, I'd ask each of them,
I don't know which one of you is funnier, and
they'd kind of both sort of bow up their chests
and get mad at E and I Actually I do
have a theory. I think John Kennedy is the better
stand up comedian. Like, like, if John Kennedy and John
(02:25):
prepares a fair amount of his material, but when he's
delivering it, he could be a professional comedian, yes, But
but Lindsey was wittier just sitting there. He would fire
zingers that you're like it was, and many of them
were self deprecating. He did not take himself too seriously.
He would make fun of himself like crazy he did,
(02:48):
and it was you know, I've traveled abroad with Lindsay
multiple times. He loved our country absolutely with a passion. Look,
Lindsey wasn't married, he didn't have kids. Every ounce of
his life was the Senate. He would travel all over
(03:09):
the world. I mean, it's just what he did. He
was out, you know, I think it was beautiful in
some ways fitting. So he had just come back from Ukraine.
He'd been meeting with President Zelensky, came back to the
United States Saturday night. He was on the phone with
President Trump. And by the way, he was one of
President Trump's closest friends. And I say that without exaggeration
(03:31):
because Lindsay and Trump disagreed on a lot of issues.
But Trump loved the guy, and it was was hard.
Speaker 3 (03:39):
If you saw him.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
They're talking about him on Meet the Press He's like,
he kind of had like unfeathered access to the White House.
He goes out, he really did a lot of people,
but he was like, Lindsay just came over all the time.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
Look, Look, Lindsay was like the Trump whisper. He would
call Trump. He talked to him early in the morning,
he talked to him late at night. He talked to
them day after day after day. And Trump Trump didn't
always agree with him, but he would listen to him
and Lindsey. When Trump was really mad about at something,
Lindsey could kind of walk him back off that cliff
a little bit. Lindsey was like, and I've spent a
(04:11):
lot of time with Lindsay and Trump together, and the
bond they had was really special, and it was in
some ways almost a perfect distillation of his life. That
he is in Ukraine, he flies back to the United States.
He's on the phone with President Trump and Sunday morning
he was scheduled to be on Meet the Press. It
(04:32):
would have been his sixty fourth appearance on Meet the Press.
Speaker 3 (04:36):
And it's a.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
Lot in colleges. By the way, Meet the Press is
kind of like Saturday Night Live. If you're like a
celebrity being on Meet the Press. That's a number that
I would love to know what that is ranking compared
to other Republicans. You've done it a lot, but it's
not sixty something times.
Speaker 4 (04:54):
Now.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
I've done it a lot, but it's nowhere close to that.
And I try to be pretty deliberate. I do Sunday
shows when I've got a particular message that I'm trying
to drive, like, when there's a reason, I try to
be quite deliberate about doing it. Lindsey, Look, look, I
have two teenage daughters, I've got a wife, I've got
a family. I want to be back in Texas, you know,
with my family, and so a Sunday show there had
(05:17):
to be a reason to do it. Yeah, Lindsay, part
of what he was was just a warrior. Every day.
He'd go to the Sunday shows when the news were great.
He'd go to the Sunday shows when the news was
terrible and like, nobody wanted to be out there defending
whatever was on fire at that moment, and Lindsay was like,
I'll do it, and he would. Part of it is
he would do it in a cheerful, funny, affable way.
(05:39):
If things were a mess he'd kind of acknowledge, Yeah,
they're a mess, but you know, all right, it was
I literally have been been walking around in a daze
much of today because I mean I spent a lot
of time with Lindsay and we would go out and
I've been texting you guys.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
By the way, you shared a picture that proud up
on your phone. You guys were recently in Paris.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
So so, and this was just you know how iPhone
kind of randomly picks pictures.
Speaker 3 (06:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Now I'm sort of convinced our phones like spy on
us and know everything.
Speaker 3 (06:12):
Yeah, but yeah, that's that is accurate. I agree with
you on that one.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
But bizarrely enough, today my iPhone kind of midday popped
up a picture of me and Lindsey and Katie Britt
and Eric Schmidt, all four of us in Paris and
we're on a river boat and we're right in front
of the Eiffel Tower and we went for the eightieth
anniversary of D Day. It was an amazing trip. It
was a powerful, beautiful trip with you know, we got
(06:38):
to see these World War Two veterans who it's it's
the very tail end of their journey on Earth, and
the four of us are just arm in arm and
it was just beautiful. And I've been I've been texting
and talking to friends and colleagues, and all of us
are just going, this doesn't seem real real, Yeah, I
(06:59):
mean it's you know, I did an interview with a
reporter today who said, who will fill the void? Who
will fill Lindsey Graham's shoes? And my answer is nobody. Nobody.
The role he played in the Senate, he was universally respected,
but also universally liked and even adored by people who
(07:21):
disagreed with him. Passionately he could be by the way,
the guy was as effective a cross examiner as I've
ever seen. Lindsay was a South Carolina trial lawyer, and
he could. On the Judiciary committee, the two.
Speaker 3 (07:39):
Were committees together.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
So people understand, you guys, it wasn't just being like
centaers together. You guys worked on committees as well.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
We worked judiciary. We spent thousands of hours together. We
were on Senate Armed Services together, we were on Foreign
Relations together, and we just worked hand in hand on
a lot of issues. There are issues where we just immigration.
Lindsay and I were in very different places, but there
were a lot of issues when Lindsey was with you.
(08:08):
I don't know that there was a more potent ally
in the Senate when he.
Speaker 4 (08:12):
Was with you.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
Yeah, and it would he could be look it was
I can't count. There are a hundred different Senate Republican
lunches when people were having really passionate, sharp disagreements about
something and Lindsey would stand up and say something, and
he'd always have a joke and people be double over laughing.
(08:34):
There be times when people are like screaming at each other,
almost ready to like, you know, take a swing at
each other. Yeah, and Lindsey would sort of cut the
tension and bring people back to the task at hand.
You know, when I'm in d C fairly regularly, I'll
have dinner with other senators and there's kind of a
group of folks that I invite that are sort of
(08:56):
the like guys I like hanging out with. And Lindsey
was almost the auto invite, because if Lindsay showed up
at the table, your ribs would hurt from laughing. And
by the way, it wasn't just that he was like
telling jokes. He was just insightful and smart and he cared. Look,
look whether you are his customer.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
That's one of the things I don't think people understand
how much he loved this country you mentioned. Didn't have
he wasn't married, he didn't have kids. His family was America.
His family was defending America. I said this this morning
on Fox and Friends. He had a grand It was
a love story with the United States of America.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
Yes, I'll tell you, it was also with our military.
So Lindsay sosolutely. Lindsey spent thirty three years in the
Air Force, active duty.
Speaker 3 (09:43):
As a colonel. People don't know that he.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
Rose up to being a colonel. I did tell him.
I said, Lindsay, if the clowns at the Pentagon ever
try to give you a star, damn it. I'm going
to the Florida filibuster it. I ain't calling you General Graham.
You could be Colonel Graham, but just under there's a
hard ceiling. And and he basically agreed with me and said, yeah,
I sure hope they'll make me a general. They shouldn't.
(10:06):
I mean, I mean, that's like a classic he was.
And I've been with him both in the US and
abroad where we would meet with service men and women,
and he had a connection to the men and women
of the armed services, a love affair where they loved
(10:26):
him and I would see them come up and like
hug him, and he would. He viewed it as his mission.
I'm going to fight for you. If you're defending this country,
if you signed up to be in the military, I'm
going to fight ferociously for you. And that was it
was real, It was sincere, it was passionate. That was
(10:48):
a beautiful thing.
Speaker 3 (10:49):
You know.
Speaker 1 (10:50):
I think one of the cool things about his services country.
I've got a lot of friends that sign up after
nine to eleven, and in politics sometimes they get frustrated
with people that serve their country and they go to
Washington and everything is based on why I was in
the military.
Speaker 3 (11:04):
And you weren't. Kind of thing.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
He didn't use his military service that night, and a
lot of people didn't realize that. Number One, he was
a colonel until he passed away. A lot of people
didn't realize he was in for thirty years. A lot
of PEO didn't realize he was in the reserves while
serving his country. In Congress, he continued to be in
the reserves and to continue to do that, but he
didn't come in and go, well, I would I serve
it wasn't a trump card for him, and it was
(11:30):
it was. It was he obviously fought hard for military
and he fought hard for things in a state that
were related to military and military complex and bases. But
it wasn't his number one thing on TV, like, well,
let me tell you why because I served and you didn't.
He didn't use it that way publicly.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
Never.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
A lot and a lot of people that I know
that are in the military and have recently retired that
gave twenty twenty five years, that's what they liked about
him the most.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
Well, and look to understand Lindsay, he grew up in
modest circuit stances in South Carolina. He grew up his
parents ran a bar in a pool hall. And part
of to understand Lindsay's magic is he was like the
best bartender you've ever seen, who would smile and crack
a joke and and whether you were celebrating a great
(12:18):
thing that happened in your life, or you were there
weeping because your wife just divorced you, or you just
had a death in the family, and and he could
the charm that he brought, the sort of effortless. I
remember years ago I was at a Silver Elephant dinner,
which is the big Republican dinner in South Carolina, and
he was speaking there.
Speaker 3 (12:39):
And at the.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
Time, Ryan's prebus was the chairman of the r NC,
and I think Ryance was speaking at that dinner. This
was a while ago, but I think Ryance was speaking
at that dinner. I remember Lindsay got up and went
Ryan's previous, Ryan's previous, What the hell is that is
not like a French electric car, and like it brought
(13:04):
the house down. I mean, he would throw lines out
there all the time, and it was He also had
a special gift for I would say, earning the trust
of and providing really valuable counsel to extraordinarily volatile, larger
(13:28):
than life figures and two in particular, John McCain and
Donald Trump. Yes, now, look John McCain, I served a
lot of years with John. When I arrived in the Senate,
John McCain hated my guts. In fact, he was quoted
as saying I hate his eff and guts. Like John
and I battled in a bloody way. Yes, over the years,
(13:50):
John and I became friends. But John was you know,
in terms of the history of the Senate. John McCain
was one of those legends who have walked the halls
of the s And I disagreed with so many positions
John had. But but the man was a war hero.
The man fought for a country. He was He was
imprisoned in Vietnam, he was tortured, he denied early release.
(14:11):
I mean, he was larger than life, yes, and he
could be volcanic like John's temper.
Speaker 3 (14:18):
It was real. It was real.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
Oh, I had been on this.
Speaker 3 (14:21):
I've been on the other end of that.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
You've been on the other end of that, and it
is let me tell you, I the talking to is
that I received you earlier in my career were brutal
when I got them.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
Lindsey was John McCain's best friend in the Senate, and
he was the McCain whisperer. I mean, it was an
amazing thing. And Lindsey would kind of soften John's you know,
he come in and pound the hell out of someone,
and Lindsay sort of cut a joke and like, you know, men, Yeah, it.
Speaker 1 (14:50):
Was Joe Aberman said, he spoke Democrat and Republican. Well
is I think the way he described it he could.
He could, he could, and he could speak McCain, which
was really important.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
And he also speaks Trump. Like, look their times, just
like John McCain. We get really pissed off their times.
This is no secret. When Donald Trump gets pissed off
and when he's angry and he's like on a tear, Lindsey,
we kind of all say, Lindsey, go on in there
and sort of talk him down, and Lindsey could. It
was an amazing thing. He'd just sort of laugh a
(15:22):
little bit, and you know, Trump would yell at him,
and he'd make Trump laugh and it would just soften
the whole thing. He had a gift for that, and
it was not just because he wanted people to like him.
He had a gift because he was trying to get
these these great men. He was trying to move them
in what he believed was a positive direction for America.
And it was a beautiful thing to watch him do that.
(15:48):
I will say, Lindsey, some of y'all who listened to
Verdict may not know this. Lindsey Graham was the very
first guest in the history of Verdict, Like when we
had just launched this show. This show launched on the
first night of the very first Trump impeachment and the
show went from zero. Look, before we launched, we had
(16:08):
zero viewers, zero listeners. Yeah, it's skyrocketed up the charts
and it became the number one ranked podcast in the world.
And as we're doing it, and we would do it
every night. This was PB pre Ben. This is what
I was doing with Michael Knowles, who's a great friend
of both of ours. Yeah, and it would be every
(16:31):
night after the impeachment trial, we'd go and do a
Verdict that night and put it out real time. And
Lindsey came, all right, I want you to watch the
cold open for our show that Lindsey recorded as our
very first guest ever.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
All right, take a listen. This is again the cold
open Lindsey Graham, the first guest on Verdict back in
the day.
Speaker 4 (16:52):
Hello, I'm senner Lindsey Graham. Welcome to Verdict with Ted Cruz,
the number one podcast in the entire country.
Speaker 5 (16:59):
What is the fun guest, Welcome back to Verdict with
Ted Cruz. I'm Michael Knowles.
Speaker 6 (17:11):
I'm joined by not one, but two US Senators to
help us break down the most shocking day of the
entire impeachment trial. Senator Graham, thank you so much for
being here at VI. Here gentlemen. The last time that
we sat down, I was told this impeachment was going
to drag on for weeks. We were going to get witnesses.
We were going to get Bolton, we were going to
get Hunter Biden. This was going to get long and ugly.
(17:33):
I go to sleep. I wake up today and the
senators are voting no more witnesses. This thing could be
over next week. Senator Cruz, what happened?
Speaker 2 (17:42):
Well, today was a big day. And let me say, Lindsey,
thank you well you. I appreciate your coming. This is
late at night. We spent all day in.
Speaker 4 (17:49):
The setting and a lot of money on production.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
Well, this was you're right yesterday. If the vote had
gone differently today, this trial could have gone on for months.
We could have seen it drag on and on and on,
and it was a big deal. It was up in
the air, and today was the most important vote we've
had in the.
Speaker 3 (18:08):
Entire By the way, I love it. Even there he
cracked a joke.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
He's like, you're not spend a lot on production, like
he had to get his zinger in there.
Speaker 3 (18:16):
That's just what made Lindsay Lindsay.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
Well, and look, at the time, we were filming Verdict
in a basement studio about a mile from Capitol Hill,
and so we drove there after the day of the trial.
It was like midnight, and you went to this basement studio.
You walked at a dark alley and you walked down
these like concrete stairs, and listen, Lindsay and I at
(18:38):
the time were not actually that close of friends. We
had been more adversaries than friends. Our friendship developed over
the years. And as we're walking down the stairs, he's like,
I feel like Joe Peshi and good Fellows. Are you
getting ready to whack me? Because like we're like walking
into a dark basement in the middle of nowhere. And
(18:58):
he looks around. In our studio, we had this this
shag carpet out of the nineteen seventies. We had these
big old brown leather chairs. We had these giant microphones,
kind of like we still have the giant microphones. Yeah,
and he says on the show, the cactus don't yeah, Okay,
I miss miss our cactus. Our cactus is still our
cactus is still part of the Verdict family. But he
(19:23):
looked around and he said this on the podcast. He's like,
you guys are the number one podcast in the world.
Who the hell is number two? Some guy in a
van by the river Like it was. It was size splitting,
But but that charm, it had real power, Yes, because
(19:46):
it would cause people to listen. It would break through
and listen. He was not always joking. If you were
to think of the singular moment, what is the number
one thing people remember that Lindsey Graham did, And I'm
gonna suggest it was when during the Brett Kavanaugh confirmation.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
Here I was gonna say no doubt Brett Kavanaugh and
saving Brett Kavanaugh from the insanity of the left that
were accusing him of the most horrific crimes without any evidence,
making it up as they went trying to destroy him,
the same way they went after Clarence Thomas very much,
but in a TMZ twenty twenty plus year type of
going after him, just more vile social media. You didn't
(20:29):
have that with a Clarence Thomas, right, Like Clarence Thomas
was ABCNBC, CNN, it was mainstream. Now they were trying
to assassinate Brett Kavanaugh's integrity and they were using all
social media to try to accomplish it.
Speaker 2 (20:42):
Well, and Lindsey unloaded on the Democrats and it changed
the entire dynamics of the hearing. I want you, most
of y'all have seen and heard this, but I want
you to give a listen again, because I think there's
a real argument. Without Lindsay doing this, Brett Kavanaugh may
not get confirmed. Give a listen to Lindsay at the hearing.
Speaker 4 (21:00):
Are you aware that at nine to twenty three on
the night of July the ninth, the day you were
nominated to the Supreme Court by President Trump, Senator Schumer
said twenty three minutes after your nomination, I will oppose
Judge Kavanaugh's nomination with everything I have. I have a
bypartisan I hope a by person majority will do the same.
(21:23):
The stakes are simply too high for anything less. Well,
if you weren't aware of it, you are now. Did
you meet with Senator Diane Feinstein on August twentieth? I
did meet with Centa Finestine. Did you know that her
staff had already recommended a lawyer to dodnor Ford. I
did not know that. Did you know that her and
her staff had this allegations for over twenty days.
Speaker 5 (21:47):
I did not know that at the time.
Speaker 4 (21:49):
If you wanted an FBI investigation, you could have come
to us. What you want to do is destroy this
guy's life. Hold this seat open and hope you went
in twenty twenty. You've said that, not me. You've got
nothing to apologize for. When you see Soda Maron Kagan,
tell him that Lindsay said, oh, because I voted for them,
(22:12):
I would never do to them what you've done.
Speaker 2 (22:14):
To this guy.
Speaker 3 (22:16):
This is the most unethical sham.
Speaker 4 (22:20):
Since I've been in politics. And if you really wanted
to know the truth, you sure as hell wouldn't have
done what you've done to this guy. Are you a
gang rapist?
Speaker 6 (22:31):
No?
Speaker 4 (22:32):
I cannot imagine what you and your family have gone through. Boy,
y'all want power. God, I hope you never get it.
I hope the American people can see through this sham
that you knew about it and you held it. You
had no intention of protecting doctor Ford none. She's as
much of a victim as you are.
Speaker 3 (22:53):
God.
Speaker 4 (22:53):
I hate to say it because these have been my friends,
but let me tell you, when it comes to this,
you're looking for a fair process. You came to the
wrong town at the wrong time, my friend.
Speaker 3 (23:07):
Senator, you look at that frustration. That was genuine.
Speaker 1 (23:11):
It wasn't inauthentic, It wasn't something that was a pre
planned moment.
Speaker 3 (23:16):
It wasn't scripted.
Speaker 1 (23:17):
We see a lot of scripted moments from politicians these days,
and some of these hearings there it's all pre organized,
pre planned protesters involved. That was real and raw and
as you mentioned, and I think you should explain a
little bit more, this forced and change the direction that
hearing was going.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
Well, and listen Lindsey's career. For a lot of his career,
he's been a very bipartisan senator. Senator, He's worked with
a lot of Democrats. As he noted, he voted to
confirm both Justice Sotoma Ora and Justice Kagan, and the
Democrats were all happy with him. They were all lovey
dove And so when he says, look, I would never
do to them what you're doing to Brett Kavanaugh, that
(23:57):
had power to it. I was sitting there at the
DAAs when when Lindsay was unloading, and you could have
heard a pin drop in the room, you know, the
silence when he asked Brett Kavanaugh, Are you a gang rapist?
And Brett says no, and Lindsey's just silent for about
four seconds, and the entire silence, there's not a peep
(24:21):
in the hearing room. That was a riveting moment. And
by the way, you mentioned Clarence Thomas. Clarence Thomas is
on the Supreme Court because during his confirmation hearing, the
Democrats did the same thing, which is they sand bagged
him with allegations from Anita Hill. And the American people
heard Anita Hill's testimony in Clarence Thomas's and by a
(24:42):
margin of about two to one, they believe Justice Thomas.
The same thing happened with Brett Kavanaugh. That's why Clarence
Thomas got confirmed. That's why Brett Kavanaugh got confirmed. And
Lindsey's that moment there played I think a real part
in people assessing and saying, wait a second, this is
not a real inquiry, this is not a fair assessment.
This is a political slime job. These guys had these
(25:05):
allegations for weeks, they sat on them, they held them back.
This is it is a drive by shooting by partisans
who just want power. That was what was effective. And
I'll tell you. So my mom, Ben, you know my mom.
She's love my mom. She's ninety one, about to be
ninety two in November. She is as conservative it can be.
(25:25):
My mom thinks you and I are little wobbly. She
is a rock rib conservative.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
By the way, I don't know if I ever said
this on the show, I've never had more fun hanging
out with your mom than than your reelection night, watching
her be excited, watching her son not a senator, her
son when reelection, and just the beaming joy.
Speaker 3 (25:47):
On her face. You weren't there when in that part.
Speaker 1 (25:50):
You were busy, and she came in and she was
just so happy, and I was like, this might be
my favorite moment of the whole night.
Speaker 2 (25:59):
So my mom, prior to the Kavanaugh hearing, was not
a Lindsay Graham fan. She mostly knew Lindsay because he
and I had battled a lot on immigration. We had
very different views on immigration, and so that's, you know,
anyone who fights her son my mom doesn't like. And
so when that cross examined examination ends, my mother sends
(26:22):
me a text and says, Okay, I now love Lindsey Graham,
And I actually got up a few minutes later and
I walked over to Lindsay and I pulled out my phone.
I said, Lindsay, here's a text I just got from
my mom, and I clicked on it and he cracked
up laughing, and then my mother proceeded to go to
(26:45):
his website and to give him thirty five dollars?
Speaker 3 (26:50):
Are you serious that I am?
Speaker 2 (26:52):
I am serious? And I told him, I said, Lindsay,
in my entire time in politics, my mother's never contributed
to my campaign. She's given you money like it was.
And he loved that. But it was look he could
be when he was engaged in a fight. He was
as effective a warrior as you could see. And that
(27:18):
was powerful. And it was he and I worked together. Look,
you look last summer the Working Family's tax cut, the
big Reconciliation bill, which we've talked a lot about on
this podcast. I still think it's the legislation that has
the most conservative victories in it of any bill that's
ever passed into law. Yeah, Lindsay was the chairman of
(27:40):
the Budget Committee, and the Budget committee plays a critical
part in reconciliation has to pass the budget resolution. To
begin with, Lindsay and I worked hand in hand I
don't know that we win that reconciliation battle without Lindsay's
leadership as chairman of the Budget Committee, and he would
there were times when people are you know, look, our
(28:02):
majority is not always rock solid. You have people that
run off this way, run off that way, and to
get fifty votes to yes is really really hard. And
Lindsey was awfully good at it.
Speaker 3 (28:18):
He was all making friends.
Speaker 1 (28:20):
I mean, that's one of the lost arts in politics,
I think, is just how good he was at making
friends and making friends that he disagreed with in his
own party and making friends on other side. But he
also had just a way of understanding when there's moments
to laugh and not.
Speaker 3 (28:37):
I told this earlier. I was young. I don't think
I've ever told you this story.
Speaker 1 (28:42):
It was probably two thousand and five or six seven,
somewhere in there, and it was something to deal with
Iraq or Afghanistan. And I was on I think it
was Shepherd Smith's show on Fox back in the day,
and they asked me directly about Lindsay Graham and something
he'd said. They played the soot come out of it,
asked me, and I was pretty blunt, and I was like,
(29:03):
I strongly disagree with him.
Speaker 3 (29:04):
YadA YadA, YadA. I get done.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
And it was one of those you don't know it's
coming moments, welcome to Live TV, and so I gave
my assessment.
Speaker 3 (29:12):
I get done.
Speaker 1 (29:13):
Center within probably a minute. I was not out of
the seat yet. My phone rings. Now, if you're twenty something,
in your phone rings, and it's a senator like that's like,
it's you know, you answer right? So I answer it.
It's two two number and it's Lindsey Graham. I don't
know who he got my number from. And I answer
and he starts just unloading on me, telling me why
(29:35):
I'm wrong.
Speaker 3 (29:36):
But it was all a ruse.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
He was messing with me because he was down the
hall in the green room at Fox, knowing he was
gonna see me in twenty seconds. So I'm on the
phone walking out of the studio and it's you know,
the hallway there, it's a short hallway you go down
make it's on the left, green rooms on the right,
and I'm hearing the conversation in my ear delayed, and
I'm hearing his voice and I walk in and we'd
(29:59):
never met before.
Speaker 3 (30:00):
I never had met before that moment.
Speaker 1 (30:02):
And I'm on the phone with him and he looks
at me and goes, gotcha, And that.
Speaker 3 (30:05):
Was it, Like he didn't mind that was ripping on him.
And I walked in there.
Speaker 1 (30:09):
We laughed and he talked to me for a minute,
but he literally just wanted to mess with me. Like
it was like the perfect you know joke there, and
that's how he was. But like after that, it was hard.
He was smart. It was harder for me to go
after him on TV because I liked him personally from
that moment of him.
Speaker 3 (30:26):
He could have been a jerk, he wasn't.
Speaker 1 (30:28):
He saw the humor in the moment and was like,
I'm gonna mess with this guy, and it was.
Speaker 3 (30:32):
It was a brilliant political move.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
And that's who Lindsay was. I don't know a single
senator out of ninety nine other senators who didn't didn't
like genuinely like Lindsay and consider him a friend like
all of them. And it was a gift. And by
the way, I've been in Senate lunches, and we've talked
about a lot of those Senate lunches on this podcast
where things got raw and bare knuckles and on foreign policy, look,
(31:02):
Lindsey was an interventionist. He was an aggressive interventionist in
the style of John McCain. He believed it, it was honest,
but he was very much an interventionist. We've had lunches
where Lindsey and Ran Paul would scream at each other
and Lindsay Rand is very much an isolationist Lindsay and
by the way, I'm in the middle of both of them,
(31:22):
I agree with with with with Lindsay about half the
time and Rand about half the time. I've also been
in lunches where Lindsay and JD Vance would be screaming
at each other. JD is is much more of an
isolationist and disagreed with Lindsay. Like on Ukraine. I mean
they would go at it where where JD Vance wanted
us to get the hell out of Ukraine yesterday, Lindsey
(31:45):
was passionate on the other side, and they would slug
it out.
Speaker 5 (31:48):
You know.
Speaker 2 (31:48):
JD put out a very kind and gracious tweet today
actually telling that story, saying, look, you know, Lindsay has
yelled at me, but I respected him and he was
my friend. And actually I saw a clip today that
I never seen before. So Blake Masters, Blake Masters ran
for Senate in Arizona. I like Blake. I went and
campaigned for him. He didn't win. I wish Blake had won,
(32:10):
but he did not. Uh and uh, you know, Blake
is is more on the isolation side of things. He's
more with with Rand and JD. And on Ukraine, he
was a vocal opponent of the Ukraine conflict. And it's
interesting Lindsey went to campaign for Blake and and they
asked him, all, wait a second, you guys disagree on Ukraine.
(32:31):
I want you to listen to to Lindsay's response as
the he's there campaigning for a guy with whom he
has sharp disagreements on foreign policy.
Speaker 4 (32:39):
Give a listen, remember my race, Remember Lindsey Graham dot com.
Anybody watched Sean Hannity. So I was on Sean Hannity
three nights a week. Blake saying they're gonna shoot my
dog tomorrow at midnight. If you don't give me I
know you're living on cat food, but you can. You
(33:00):
can spare a few bucks here, people responded. My opponent
raised one hundred and thirty two million dollars against me,
the most in the history of the Senate. Man, why
have across the cabin. They hated my guts. They wanted
to destroy the guy's life. I sort of got in
the way. That's the way these people are, right, There's
(33:21):
nothing they won't do for power. So the reason people
responded to me is you don't have to agree with
me all the time, but when there's a fight, I
will show up.
Speaker 3 (33:31):
He shows up. He's not lying when he says that.
Speaker 2 (33:34):
Yeah, And look, he would joke all the time, like
when he was running for reelection the last time. He
would go on on Hannity, to go on Fox News
and he'd say Lindsey Graham dot Comlinsy Graham dot Comlinsy
Graham dot com. And he was shameless. I mean, he
was like, Hi, my name is Lindsay Graham dot com.
He would raise money and he'd say he'd say, if
you're a little old lady and you're trying to feed
your cat, don't feed your cat tonight, go and give
(33:55):
me money instead. And it would people would crack up,
but they would do it. But so Blake Masters who
lost that race. He tweeted out that video. But here's
what he said in his tweet, which is interesting. Blake said,
quote once when a donor asked Senator Graham, why are
you helping Blake given how much you two disagree on
(34:16):
foreign policy. He replied with a grin. So Blake's wrong
about Ukraine. Who gives a shit. We aren't here to
talk about how correct I am all the time. We're
here to talk about getting the Senate majority because I
want to be chairman of my committees. And Blake continues,
(34:37):
Lindsey was cheerful and determined, and he understood that he
played a team sport. May his memory be eternal. That's
pure Lindsey Graham. He could disagree with you, and Lord
knows he and I did, but it wasn't personally, wasn't
angry with you, and and that sort of joy. Look,
it is amazing the number of times you look at
(34:59):
his relationship with Trump. Lindsay was a huge Trump critic. Yeah,
and he ran against him, said he was going to
destroy the world. But by the way, you look at me,
all right, So in the presidential look, Lindsay ran against Trump,
ran against me. And in the course of that campaign,
Lindsay said, you know, if you killed Ted on the
(35:20):
Senate floor, and the Senate was the jury, nobody could
convict you. I gonn admit that. That was funny as hell.
I like laughed, I'm like, all right, that's a hell
of a line. Now, Lindsay ended up not prevailing in
that race, obviously, he dropped out, and after Lindsay dropped out,
he endorsed my campaign. So he came and endorsed my campaign,
(35:41):
and he campaigned with me for president twenty sixteen. And
and Lindsey said at the time, he and I were
doing a fundraiser together, and I stood up and I said,
you know, I got to say, this is the first
time in my life I've ever been endorsed by someone
who's publicly called for my murder. And that was kind
(36:02):
of how Lindsay was. He He had, you know, in
the same time. You know, he and Trump would battle
like crazy, but Trump just liked him and it was real,
and Lindsey liked Trump. Lindsey saw the power. Look, Trump
has a cast iron backbone, he has courage, and and
Lindsey saw that the historic value of President Trump's strength,
(36:29):
and it was really important. Now, all right, I'll give
you another story from from first term Trump. We were
having a disputed about funding the border wall, and the
President wanted to sign and was going to sign an
emergency declaration and use the emergency powers of the president
to shift funding to the border wall. I came up
with a different legal theory that would let him build
(36:50):
the border wall, let him build every penny of the
border wall one hundred percent, but not do it through
an emergency declaration. And my concern was, look, if you
create the precedent for doing this the next Democrat president,
the next if we have a President Bernie Sanders or
President Elizabeth Warren, they're going to declare an emergency on
climate change. They're gonclare an emergency on gun violence and
(37:12):
use it to justify all sorts of bad policies. So
I had a second theory that would have done one
hundred percent of the upside without the downside of the
bad president. And I pitched it to Lindsay, and Lindsay
was like, Yeah, that makes sense. And so Lindsey and
I spent a day trying to call the President and
pitch this theory. And at the time, the White House
(37:33):
staff did not want Lindsay and me to talk to
the president, so they were blocking us. They were preventing
us from getting through to the president.
Speaker 3 (37:40):
The oldest trick in Washington is that one right there.
Speaker 2 (37:44):
And so we were sitting there, it was getting to
be maybe seven seven thirty at night. We were on
the Senate floor, and we were both frustrated because for
twenty four hours we'd been calling the president, we hadn't
gotten through. And I finally said to lindsay, screw it,
let's get in the car and drive over there. Like
what And I'm like, yeah, let's just go over there
right now. He's like all right, let's go. And then
oddly enough, a third senator jumped in the car, Ben Sass,
(38:07):
who was another friend, but he was just kind of
standing there, and Ben's like, oh, I'll go. And so
the three of us drove over and we're literally we're
not invited. We're uninvited.
Speaker 3 (38:16):
We're just you're not list.
Speaker 1 (38:17):
And by the way, people need to understand, there's two
gates you go through and if you're not on the list,
they look at you like you're an alien.
Speaker 2 (38:24):
Okay, So we're driving over and and Lindsey calls and
actually gets Trump on the phone as we're driving over,
and he's like, yeah, we're come over right now. And
Trump was getting ready to have dinner with Milania, and
it was like their first like couple's dinner, a romantic
dinner in like a month. And Lindsey's like, no, we
(38:44):
need to see you right now. And so we go
up to the residence and Trump is pissed. He is
madder than a hornet because like his whole date night
has been blown up by us going over to the
White House. And so we come over there and we're
up in the residence and and Trump brings up a
couple of lawyers from the White House Counsel's office, and
(39:04):
and they're smart guys, but they were on the other
side of this. And we begin arguing, and I got
to say, look, Lindsey could judge the prevailing wins really quickly,
and and he could see that Trump was not buying
what I was selling that particular night. So Lindsey very
quickly abandons me. He just jumps out, and he goes
and sits with with with with Trump, and I'm arguing
(39:25):
with this lawyer from the White House Council. I mean,
we are slugging it out. I mean it's uh, it
was a bare knuckle fight. And Lindsey turns to Trump
and said, who do you think is winning. How they
do it, and like Trump's kind of laughing, and they're
almost like color commentators watching us have this legal argument.
(39:45):
And then in the middle of it, Trump calls one
of one of the staff of the White House and says,
bring us some of those pigs in a blanket, those
those those little ordures. So they bring a plate of
pigs in the blanket and this goes on for like
three hours.
Speaker 3 (39:59):
No, so you guys straight up Trump the date night.
Speaker 2 (40:02):
Yeah, it blew up the date night. We ended up
not being persuasive that night. Although I will say lindsay,
cut me loose so fast and any job. But he didn't,
like he admitted after he is like, yeah, you weren't winning,
So I wasn't gonna be with that. He's like, I'll
be behind you, way way way behind you.
Speaker 3 (40:20):
Right behind you. Yeah, around the corner.
Speaker 2 (40:22):
But it was the sort of thing that's that was
very much Lindsey Graham, and it's part of why Trump
listened to him, because he didn't win every argument, but
he was there to go again and to go again,
and it was really effective. And I'll tell you where
it mattered enormously. There's no area Lindsay and I worked
(40:44):
more closely on than Iran and standing up to the
incredible danger to America. If the Iyotola ever gets a
nuclear weapon, I think it's an existential threat to America.
I think if the Iatola who chanced death to America
it's a nuclear weapon, I think the odds are unacceptably
high that that hundreds of thousands or even millions of
(41:06):
Americans would be murdered. And Lindsay agreed with that, and
he and I wereked hanned in hand over and over
and over again, talking with President Trump every week, sometimes
every day, saying you're exactly right to stand up to Iran.
The President has said repeatedly Iran will never get a
nuclear weapon. There will be zero enrichment. And Lindsey was
(41:28):
an incredible ally UH that that that I've was fighting
alongside and the President listened to us, which is part
of why we've seen, UH seen the President's incredible strong
leadership UH taking out Iran's military capacity and stopping them
from getting nuclear weapons. That that that was one of
(41:49):
the most important legacies Lindsay ever had.
Speaker 3 (41:51):
It's it's really incredible.
Speaker 1 (41:53):
We're gonna do something really fun this week as well,
that first podcast that you did with your first guests
was Lindsay Graham. We're gonna put that out this week,
so look for that on the feed as well. Senator,
I'm so glad you got to talk about your friend.
I mean this so sincerely. I'm so sorry for your loss.
When you lose a friend, I've lost too many you lose,
especially a sudden like this.
Speaker 3 (42:14):
It is gut wrenching.
Speaker 1 (42:15):
Hug your family, Hug your friends, call your friends, check
on your friends. I say that often to people you
just never know. And and I'm glad You've got to
spend so much quality time with him.
Speaker 2 (42:28):
Well, he will be missed. He left a legacy that
was extraordinary. And I will say, whether you agreed with
him or disagreed with him, Lindsey loved this country and
he devoted every waking moment of his life to fighting
for this country. That that was his mission. And I
(42:50):
admired that. I admired that it was real, it was genuine,
and he made a profound difference. It is a good
reminder Lindsay was just seventy one years old. He was
full of energy and vigor. To be honest, if I
were to pick one of my colleagues who was not
going to be making not gonna make it. Lindsey would
not have been on the list. He had the energy
(43:12):
that that he was unstoppable at energy. And it's a
good remindered all of us that that that none of
us are guaranteed to be here tomorrow. So so hug
your family, hug your kids, and and say thanks to
God for the for the privilege of living in a
time of consequence and and and making a difference in
our country. And I will say this, Lindsey Graham made
(43:34):
an enormous difference for our country.
Speaker 3 (43:36):
Amen to that as always.
Speaker 1 (43:38):
Thank you for listening to Verdict with Center Ted Cruz
Ben Ferguson with you don't forget to deal with my podcast,
and you can listen to my podcast every other day
you're not listening to Verdict or each day when you
listen to Verdict. Afterwards, I'd love to have you as
a listener to again, Ben Ferguson Podcasts, and we will
see you back here on Monday morning.
Host
Ben Ferguson
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