Alynda Segarra

Alynda Segarra is the front person and major creative force of Hurray for the Riff-Raff. Listen as they tell the tale of dropping out of high school, riding the rails, moving to New Orleans, starting as a pure indie, and then moving to ATO and ultimately Nonesuch, changing musical direction along the way. You may not know their music, but you'll want to after listening to this podcast!

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Leftstets Podcast. My
guest today is a Lindas Cigara of Hooray for the
riff Raff. Alinda is Hooray for the riff Raff. Basically
you and a roving cast of characters or is it
a band?

Speaker 2 (00:26):
It's both. It's definitely my project, it's my songwriting, but
I really, you know, I'm in it for the band feeling.
I'm in it for the family of the band. So
even though it is a rotating cast of characters throughout
the years, I definitely get attached to the bands of

(00:47):
certain records.

Speaker 1 (00:50):
Okay, So presently, how many members in the band.

Speaker 2 (00:54):
Altogether? There's four of us, sometimes five when I'm lucky.

Speaker 1 (00:59):
Okay, let's start with the four. How long have the
same four been together? Uh?

Speaker 2 (01:05):
They joined for this record, So we've been all playing
together since February.

Speaker 1 (01:11):
Okay, so every record might be a new band.

Speaker 2 (01:16):
Yeah, I think. You know, for a while I was
rolling with the same crew of people. But then with
moving around, you know, and also just like life changes
that the transition of late twenties into early thirties into
pandemic times was very interesting with having band members. So
everyone goes through like huge life changes. So I would

(01:40):
love to hold onto this band as long as possible.
I'd love to continue playing with them for next record too.

Speaker 1 (01:47):
Okay, let's break this down. Tell me about the transition
from twenties to thirties.

Speaker 2 (01:53):
Well, people start having kids. I'm not, but you know,
sometimes your drummer does, or a bassist or you know,
people start just having different lifestyles. So I thought that
was a really interesting time to be a semi hustling
touring musician in a van.

Speaker 1 (02:16):
Okay, since not everybody is familiar with you, how old.

Speaker 2 (02:19):
Are you today, I'm thirty seven.

Speaker 1 (02:22):
Oh, you look so much younger. So you say, you know,
I'm older than you are, And I find every decade,
especially as you get older, it's really quite a transition.
Have you find a straight evolution or can you sympathize
and identify with them going from their twenties to their thirties.

Speaker 2 (02:43):
Oh, I can definitely sympathize. I feel like, you know,
my transitions have been artistic for sure. I feel like
I don't really have this urge to start a family
per se in the typical sense of the word. But

(03:03):
I definitely feel like I'm looking for more stability. I'm
looking for more Also when it comes to creating art,
I'm looking for something that feels more fresh to me,
or I guess realer. I'm trying to get to this
root feeling of making something that feels very true to me.

(03:25):
So I guess that's my That's the track that I'm
on as I get older.

Speaker 1 (03:33):
When you say about having a family that is something,
just go a little deeper on that.

Speaker 2 (03:40):
Well, I've always wanted a family in a certain sense
since I was a kid. I grew up feeling very
out of place, very a bit like an alien, like
I was drop. I grew up in the Bronx. I'm
from a Puerto Rican family, and I was interested in

(04:00):
things that weren't necessarily what is typical like at the
time for a kid like me, and I felt very
out of place. So I went to music, to going
to live shows, and then eventually to making a band
because I wanted to feel like I was a part

(04:21):
of something and I had people to depend on and
people that I was getting vulnerable with.

Speaker 1 (04:27):
You know.

Speaker 2 (04:27):
I just didn't want to go through this life alone.
And I never felt that urge to become a mother
or to you know, to get married or something. So
songwriting and creating a band is a way that I
put those It's a place for those feelings.

Speaker 1 (04:45):
I think, let's go back to growing up in the Bronx.
You know, the Box has been through a lot of
transitions in the seventies and eighties, or a lot of
movies about the South Bronx. Tell us about growing up
in the Bronx. It was.

Speaker 2 (05:01):
It was a very friendly neighborhood for me to grow
up in. I feel really lucky. It was pretty old school.
Everybody talked to each other, a lot of older people
and families, a lot of working class people, a lot
of like union talk. It felt Now that I look back,

(05:24):
it feels very special. It feels like something I don't
really see that much anymore, you know, as in terms
of neighborhood and neighbors communicating with each other. But at
the same time, I felt like it was horribly boring
and all I wanted to do was be in the

(05:44):
Lower east Side because I heard that that's where the
weirdos were. I started listening to punk music and I
heard that everybody who was a punk was in the
Lower east Side. So I would take the train and
it would take me about two hours, and I loved
every second of it because I just wanted to be

(06:05):
like where that action was.

Speaker 1 (06:08):
Okay? You know, on one hand, you have the Rolling
Stone song Miss You, which they now sing live. I
just saw and they left this line out. You know,
there's some Puerto Rican girls just dying to meet you, okay,
and then in New York, you know, uh, there's just

(06:29):
there's been racism. You know. What was it like growing
up being a Puerto Rican kid in the Bronx.

Speaker 2 (06:38):
Well, I feel like for me, I was really confused
because I was constantly told that I didn't act like
what a Puerto Rican kid or girl was supposed to act.
Like the idea of what that was was Jlo, you know,
like or before her it was West Side Story. There

(07:01):
just like wasn't a lot of representation or a lot
of that in the media that I understood, you know,
that I could see. So I just was constantly told
that I wasn't doing you know, whatever I am correctly,
and that was from kids that weren't Puerto Rican that

(07:22):
you know, or kids that were So I guess my
experience of it was just constantly feeling like Okay, I
guess I'm doing everything wrong, and this is just naturally
the way I am and the things that I'm interested in.
You know, as I got older and when I made
my record in twenty seventeen, The Navigator, I started doing

(07:43):
more research into just Puerto Rican activism and I found
out about the Young Lords, and that's when everything starting
started to make sense to me. You know, here's like
these really inspired and serious intellectual Puerto Rican women and men,
like all in their twenties, who were all into revolution

(08:06):
and they were into revolutionary art and community activism. And
suddenly all these things that people told me, I'm like,
that's not true. I come from these from these people
very obviously, you know, like these are my ancestors in
a way, or like my elders.

Speaker 1 (08:23):
You know, what do your parents do for a living?

Speaker 2 (08:27):
My mother was, she actually worked for Giuliani. She was, Yeah,
she was the deputy mayor for Rudolph Giuliani for both
of his terms. And my dad, well, whoa whoa, whoa,
whoa woah.

Speaker 1 (08:39):
Not everybody's familiar, including myself. Is the deputy mayor an
appointed position.

Speaker 2 (08:45):
Elected position? No, well actually appointed, yeah, it's not elected.
And I think there are four.

Speaker 1 (08:51):
That was my next question.

Speaker 2 (08:52):
Okay, yeah, yeah, wait wait wait, wait, wait.

Speaker 1 (08:54):
Wait, your mother isn't walking down the street and all
of a sudden, Juliani says, oh you I want you.
You have to climb the ladder to get to that job.
So what did she do to ultimately get that gig?

Speaker 2 (09:08):
To be honest, I don't know. I didn't grow up
with her. I grew up with my with my aunt,
that's actually my dad's sister, and she's who raised me.
So my relationship with my mother is very strained. You know.
I grew up seeing her a couple of times a year,
or I would live with her for a stint in

(09:30):
elementary school, and then I would get sent back to
my aunt. You know. It was a lot of where
am I gonna end up? And my aunt always being
the person who was like, I will take a Linda,
you know. So yeah, so the relationship is it remains
mysterious for me. It's like one of the big mysteries

(09:50):
in my life.

Speaker 1 (09:50):
Okay, were your parents ever married? Yes? And you have
brothers and sisters? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (09:58):
I have a brother. I have an older brother.

Speaker 1 (10:00):
And did they share the same parents?

Speaker 2 (10:01):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (10:03):
And when you were growing up with your aunt? Who
was he living with?

Speaker 2 (10:06):
He was with my dad.

Speaker 1 (10:09):
Okay, so do you ever remember living under the same
roof with both your parents and your brother.

Speaker 2 (10:17):
In elementary school, like in kindergarten and first grade, which
is when she was first she first got her appointment.
You know, I don't know how you'd say it, right,
So I think that there was a bit of like, let's,
you know, look like a normal family. She had already
split up with my dad though, so there was this

(10:39):
brief period of living under the same roof, but my
aunt still being our caretaker, and that ended pretty quickly.

Speaker 1 (10:50):
Okay. And what did your father do for a living.

Speaker 2 (10:53):
He was a music teacher at a public school and
then he became vice principal.

Speaker 1 (10:58):
Okay, now you say your Puerto Rican heritage? How many
generations was your family in New York?

Speaker 2 (11:06):
My aunt and dad were both born in Puerto Rico,
but they grew up here, so I'm second.

Speaker 1 (11:15):
Okay, So what's your relationship with your mother today?

Speaker 2 (11:19):
Uh, there isn't one, really, I'm just kinda yeah, there
there isn't one. It's it's become more. I don't know,
it's one that I'm working through but the older I get,
the more it becomes you know, I'm not waiting for
some kind of change. It's more of accepting this is

(11:41):
the story of us, and I'm happy with the life
that I have.

Speaker 1 (11:47):
You know, what do you speculate happened such that you
lived with your aunt as opposed to your biological mother.

Speaker 2 (11:58):
I'm not sure. I mean, honestly, that was a question
that was asked a lot of me when I was
a kid, and I would always be a little bit
confused about how to answer. When I was younger, I
would give a very you know, generous answer of well,

(12:19):
and I do think that this is still true. You know,
my mother is of a generation where you really had
to choose between being a mother or being a professional,
and it seemed like those two things were very in
conflict with each other. So I think that being a
professional person was really where her heart was and where
her passion was, and I don't think that motherhood was

(12:43):
where she was called, you know which, you know, as
I get older, it definitely makes sense for me. This
idea of becoming a mother is a very big deal
to me. Like I would not want to do it
unless I was completely ready and ready to put my
obsession with songwriting a little bit to the side, you know,

(13:06):
because I don't I'm so afraid that I wouldn't be
able to do it well. I see other people juggle
it just perfectly or you know, beautifully. But for me,
I've learned from being a kid that was like, well,
I you know what's going on here?

Speaker 1 (13:24):
So, yeah, okay, what is your mother doing now?

Speaker 2 (13:30):
I don't know, not sure.

Speaker 1 (13:34):
You were living with your aunt. Yeah, brother was living
with his father, also your father. Why were the two
of you living in different locations.

Speaker 2 (13:44):
I think it was just easier for my dad to handle,
you know. He Yeah, I don't know. I mean I
grew up with my aunt and uncle and it was
like a really stable household. So I felt really lucky.
And my brother grew up with my dad and it
seemed like that worked out really well. So I never

(14:05):
really asked a lot of questions about it because I
was really happy with staying with them.

Speaker 1 (14:12):
Okay, and then when your brother was living with your
father and you're living with his sister and her husband,
how much contact are you having with the father and
the brother.

Speaker 2 (14:22):
Oh, I would see them a lot. We would do
we would do these big trips every summer when we
were out of school, where we would all drive from
New York to Florida together because we had family down there.
So we would do big trips like that and like
be together all summer. Or I would see my dad
I don't know, like every other week or something and

(14:42):
talk to him on the phone a lot. So that
was a pretty you know, in contact relationship.

Speaker 1 (14:51):
Okay, your aunt and your uncle, did they have any
of their own kids?

Speaker 2 (14:56):
Yeah? They had two, two daughters that are my older cousins,
but kind of like my older sisters. They were all
they're like in their fifties now.

Speaker 1 (15:07):
Okay, so they were good fifteen odd years older than you.

Speaker 2 (15:10):
Yeah. Yeah, So you know, this decision to take on
a new kid, you know, when you're done raising your own.
I mean, as I get older, it's something I also
think about that it was such a big decision to
make and they did, and I never felt any type

(15:33):
of I don't know, it was like they made that
decision and they never looked back, and it was like,
I'm their kid.

Speaker 1 (15:41):
And what did they do for a living?

Speaker 2 (15:44):
My uncle worked in the housing project that we lived in.
He would do maintenance and stuff like that. And then
before that he was a construction worker, but he got
hurt on the job at one point. So just jobs
like that.

Speaker 1 (16:00):
And your aunt worked in the home. Yeah, you know,
I have to ask, is it ignorant suburbanite? One thinks
of bronx and one thinks of projects, and one thinks
of crime and danger. Is that an accurate or a
fantasy thought about it?

Speaker 2 (16:20):
I mean, I think it's both. It's definitely accurate, and
also at the same time, there's a lot there is normalcy,
you know. I think people get used to the environment
that they're in and you learn to watch out for
certain things, and you also learn to acknowledge Yeah, there

(16:40):
are people who are addicted to drugs and they're standing
outside the building, but also they're just people, you know.
And I think, especially growing up in New York, everybody
that I was growing up around was just very matter
of fact of here are the dangers, and here is
you can maneuver them. But at the same time, I

(17:04):
also feel like it was a really like great neighborhood.
You know, I could walk at night by myself and
never feel nervous, and I could go there were like
a lot of really great parks and stuff like that.
So in that way, I mean, especially when I moved
to New Orleans, I felt like I was naive about,

(17:26):
you know, certain dangers and stuff. I felt really independent
when I was growing up in New York and.

Speaker 1 (17:33):
The neighborhood you grew up in. Was that a mixed
neighborhood race wise mostly Puerto Rican? What was it like?

Speaker 2 (17:39):
It was really mixed. It was Irish for sure, definitely
Jewish population. Yeah, also like Middle Eastern. I felt like
there were people from every part of the world.

Speaker 1 (18:01):
Okay, you're going to school. You good student, bad student,
have friends, don't have friends.

Speaker 2 (18:09):
I was a good student in certain ways. I was
really obsessed with poetry early on. In English class in
like you know classes that have a lot of conversation,
discussion stuff about the arts, I was all in. And
when it came to subjects like math and science, I

(18:31):
was just I couldn't do it. I just felt like
I couldn't. I don't know, I couldn't handle the pressure
of it or something. And I was a good student
really until I got into high school. Pretty quickly. Into
high school is when I started making friends and hanging

(18:53):
out more like in the Lower East side scene, and
that was when most of my friends were outside of
my school, and I just started really questioning this kind
of track I was on. I started questioning, like, would
I really ever be able to go to college? What
kind of college could I really afford? Anyway, it was

(19:13):
a lot of these existential questionings of this track that
everybody was telling me I should be on.

Speaker 1 (19:22):
You know, Okay, you're obviously there's a few years of
gone by, but you're wise and you have insight into
the landscape. Did you have friends that felt the same
way or did you feel kind of you were out
of place and you had these thoughts and there were

(19:42):
people really you could relate to you or you couldn't
relate to them.

Speaker 2 (19:46):
I feel really lucky to have found the punk scene
when I did, because I definitely felt like I wasn't alone.
And also, you know, in my freshman year, I pretty
much in the first week of school, if I remember correctly,
was nine to eleven, and that experience really changed all

(20:09):
of my generation at the time, you know, and I
felt really lucky to well, I'd feel really lucky now
to have gone through such an intense historic moment with
other kids that were like minded that were. I don't know.
I just I didn't feel alone, you know, during it,

(20:31):
and I think if I had, it would have been
really bad for me.

Speaker 1 (20:38):
So how did you find out about THEE And where
were you when the planes hit the towers.

Speaker 2 (20:44):
I was in art class and my somebody came in
and westbood in my teacher's ear and she yelled holy
shit or like oh shit or something like that. It
was like this moment of you see your teacher break
the facade for a second. And what I remember after
that was just pretty much chaos, like kids immediately needing

(21:08):
to find out if their parents are okay, just total
madness in the school, them trying to basically get all
of us out and finding out how we can get home.
You know. I don't remember a lot of it, but
I remember the chaotic feeling, and none of us have
cell phones obviously at the time. And I remember going

(21:29):
into one office and there being a little TV and
it playing on the TV. It I didn't recognize at
that age how big of a shift it was for
me to see this bubble of normalcy get popped like that,

(21:52):
you know, at the time, because I was, you know,
fourteen going on fifteen, I was just like, Wow, something's
happen happening. Life has been so boring, and now something
is happening. But it did create just a really different
view of, you know, what is possible, and it was

(22:17):
really interesting to be so young and to watch people
deal with grief in different ways, and to watch certain
people want revenge, and you know, to just really get
this look outside of just me and my personal life
and my home. Suddenly I was looking out at the
world and at our country, and that was the first

(22:37):
time I really started to do that.

Speaker 1 (22:40):
Okay, so you say you were a freshman in high
school and you started getting into the punk scene. How
did you get into the punk scene.

Speaker 2 (22:47):
It started off with pretty like mainstream bands, you know,
like I went to go see Wheezer or I I
I'm trying to think of some other bands, like the
band Rancid. You know, there are definitely bands that you
hear of, and then it leads you to smaller and
smaller bands and more local bands. You go to a

(23:09):
show because you bought a CD that looked cool in
Tower Records, and then you go to the show and
somebody hands you a flyer and it's like handwritten photocopied
and you're like, what is this? I got to go
to this, you know, it was like this treasure map
of finding out the deeper and deeper road where you

(23:31):
could make more friends and go see a band that
nobody had ever heard of because like they're playing out
of a basement or something like that. It became like
a reason for me to live. Really, all of a sudden,
I was like, this is what I'm supposed to do.

Speaker 1 (23:50):
You know, Okay, I live through this myself, and I
certainly go on to see a lot of bands in
nowhere spots. Yeah, were you so young that it was
just so exciting that you said, well, you know, these
people really aren't that good, but I'm here and this
is something.

Speaker 2 (24:08):
Oh yeah. I didn't care if anybody was good. I
just loved I mean, probably if they were, you know,
quote unquote bad, I probably liked it more because I
was just really excited. I think at that age, I
didn't even want to be entertained, and I didn't even
want to really be blown away by artistry. I mostly

(24:32):
wanted to feel like there was no separation between me
and the band. I wanted to feel like we could
become friends, right after this, and that anyone in the
room was actually capable of doing what the band was doing.
We were all just like shifting our positions for temporarily
between like audience and performer or something. So it was

(24:56):
all about being connected.

Speaker 1 (24:58):
Okay, let's just go a little bit lower. You're a girl,
you're going on a freshman year in high school. Yeah,
how do you literally hear punk? Do you have a
friend say, oh, you have to listen to this record,
or you hear something on the radio, or were you
a someone who bought a lot of records to begin with?
How did you literally discover punk?

Speaker 2 (25:16):
I bought a lot of CDs, especially on those drives
to Florida. You know, as I got older, I was
feeling more rebellious and more just confused and feeling less
like a happy, go lucky kid, and I wanted to
buy as many CDs as I could and listen on

(25:38):
my headphones in the car for that really long drive
to Florida. And I remember buying a Dead Kennedy CD
simply because it looked cool, you know, And that was
my first experience. And then after that, I get a
Bikini Kill CD because it looks cool and they're girls,

(25:59):
you know, instead, it's like this, like, yeah, that's how
it started. Was I see something that catches my eye,
and then I go to the next band, and then
this band mentions a band in their thank yous or
something like that. It felt like piecing together little like

(26:22):
tips that were left behind.

Speaker 1 (26:24):
Okay, at the time, did you literally have to go
Manhattan to see these acts or was there a scene
in the Bronx where you grew up.

Speaker 2 (26:32):
If there was, I didn't know about it. I definitely
think it's different now. You know, genres are so different
now in a way that I'm really excited about. At
the time, it felt very clear that if you listened
to hip hop, you could not listen to punk. And
if you dressed a certain way, you were over here,

(26:54):
and if you dressed this way, then you're over here.
So it felt like in my neighborhood, everybody loved hip
hop and that's what people were listening to. So I
didn't know of a scene in the Bronx, if there
was one. So it really felt like the Lower East
Side was the place to be.

Speaker 1 (27:14):
And were you out there alone or did you have
a compatriot or what?

Speaker 2 (27:19):
I started going alone, you know, to those earlier shows,
and then in high school, I did make a couple
of friends that there was a place that we would
all gather, you know, we just kids just like to
sit outside and like smoke cigarettes and talk shit with
each other. So I started making friends that way, not
through classes or anything. And I started gathering a couple

(27:44):
of friends who would want to go to shows. And
then at the shows you meet other people, and so
that's how it started.

Speaker 1 (27:52):
Let's be point blank. Yeah, a woman goes alone to
a show is different from a man going alone to
a sho show, Amica, or a boy can go be
one hundred percent alone. If you are a woman going
to show, a guy's going to come up and talk
to you. If not, twenty guys, what was it your experience?

Speaker 2 (28:10):
Like, it really wasn't that It was not that I
uh yeah, I felt pretty good, honestly. I mean it
was all like other teenage kids, you know, so I
never really felt any creepiness. I was going to mostly
to shows at this place called ABC No Rio, and

(28:32):
that was really good because it was pretty much designed
for younger kids. It was it was a matinee show,
so it started at like three o'clock and ended at
like six, you know, and it was like five dollars,
so I felt, really, I don't know, it was a
lot more.

Speaker 1 (28:53):
Not like.

Speaker 2 (28:56):
I mean, everybody was drinking and stuff, but there was
not a lot of like creepy be feelings or feelings
of predatory stuff going on. So I feel lucky in
that way.

Speaker 1 (29:06):
Did your and uncle have any idea what you were doing?
Did they ever set limits or did they just trust you?

Speaker 2 (29:14):
They definitely tried to set limits, you know. At first
it was I think also my aunt really was happy
that I was finding something that I was excited about,
and she wasn't really intimidated by music, and she didn't
seem to like distrust it. You know. She was happy

(29:37):
that I was excited about going to shows and I
wasn't coming home drunk or anything. You know. It was
like I was pretty good at coming home. And then
as I got older, I would say into sixteen and
seventeen was when it started to be really noticeable that,
you know, I was like dropping out of school and

(30:00):
things were just kind of like spiraling into a chaos
that my aunt couldn't really handle. She would really try
to keep track of me and try to track me
down when I would be coming home late and stuff
like that, that there was only really so much that
they could do.

Speaker 1 (30:27):
Tell me about dropping out of school.

Speaker 2 (30:31):
I mean, I was just doing bad and I was
So it's really hard sometimes to tap into the stubborn
brain of like a sixteen or seventeen year old at
this point in my life because there's so much that
like I don't relate to now, and that being this

(30:54):
very very confident belief that there was just something out
there for me that I was going to find that
nobody else could see. And it was just like truth
to me, Like nobody could convince me that my life
was going to be shit because of Now, if I
had a kid at that age, it'd be like, what

(31:17):
is your plan, you know? And my big plan was like, well,
I'm going to become a squatter and I'm gonna, you know,
go ride freight trains and I'm going to learn how
to live outside of society and it's going to be great.
Like that was just the life track that I was
learning about from different people I was meeting in the
Lower East Side, and it seemed so yeah, factual to me.

(31:43):
So that was where my head was at.

Speaker 1 (31:47):
Okay, is it one day you say I can't take
this anymore, or you drop out, or you can't wait
till you turn sixteen, or you're thinking it about six months?
Are your aunt and uncle involved? How does it actually
come to be that you drop out?

Speaker 2 (32:05):
It was, you know, a lot of trouble at school,
the school talking to us, and then it's like, okay,
let's try this different public school. And then I try
a different public school, and then that school it's like
guidance counselor gets involved. We think you have so much
promise what's going on? And then it's like, okay, let's

(32:26):
go to this third school where like kids go to
when they're on the verge of dropping out. And then
eventually when I got to that school, it was like,
let's okay, let's talk seriously about me just getting my ged,
you know. And it was a countdown for me of Okay,
I'm gonna turn seventeen and I'm going to find a

(32:49):
way to get out of here. And my mind was
very focused on I'm I'm not doing anybody any favors
by sticking around, you know. I felt very much like
I'm stressing out my family and they don't see this
thing that I see for myself, this future that I

(33:11):
see for myself. So I'm just gonna have to go
do it. And then once I do it, I'll prove
to them that, you know, they can relax. They'll see
that I'm okay. It's like it's a theme that I
hear in a lot of folk songs. At once. I
left this idea of like I have to go, I

(33:31):
can't go home this way, like I'll I'll show you
by doing it, and you'll see that what I saw
for myself was real. You know, did you get your
ged I didn't.

Speaker 1 (33:44):
Now, okay, you drop out. You have this dream of
being a squatter going on the rails, what do you
actually do?

Speaker 2 (33:53):
I actually do that. I've become a squatter. I start
writing for trains with some friends. I start playing on
the street eventually, because at first it was just spare
changing and asking for money on the street, which can
be just so like, you know, mind numbing and so

(34:18):
just can drive you crazy. So I felt lucky when
I started meeting kids that were playing on the street,
specifically when I went to New Orleans.

Speaker 1 (34:27):
Wait wait, let's let's before we get to New Orleans.
Tell meybe is riding freight tree in something you did
once or something you did a few times, and what
was that.

Speaker 2 (34:38):
Like, I did it for about two years. It was
and there were very different experiences throughout doing it, because
I feel like it can get shaped so much by
who you're with or if you're alone. You know, that's
something I never did alone. I was way too scared.

(34:59):
So there are a lot of diferent experiences. Sometimes me
and another young woman I was traveling with, or me
and a band. When I finally started my first band
that was based in New Orleans, there were all other
hobo kids, uh or before I started playing music, and
it was just like me and a bunch of guys

(35:21):
that I knew. That was kind of like a shitty vibe,
you know, it was. It was so many different things.
Sometimes it was extremely hard, and sometimes it was like
the biggest high I've ever had of feeling like wow,
I've done it. I've like escaped the matrix to use like,
you know, a tired metaphor like here I am looking

(35:45):
at these tiny towns as we like whiz by them
at night, and just this feeling of like I escaped America,
like I am on the outside and I don't have
to like function in this system anymore.

Speaker 1 (36:02):
Okay. You know the old myth and movie thing is
the train is moving slowly and you run onto the
train and you ride it far away and then it
stops you get off. What was it actually like.

Speaker 2 (36:16):
Well, some people can do that, they have very good
upper body strength. For someone like me, it was a
lot more of you know, you wait until the train
is stopped. You like start to learn about, like you know,
how long people, how long engineers and conductors are on call,

(36:37):
and you learn that it's like an eight hour shift,
so you start to you know, just figure out when
a train has stopped. It's a lot of this is
like really before the Internet, so a lot of like
word of mouth, a lot of people telling you if
you want to go he if you want to go

(36:57):
west to this town, like be in this specific spot.
A lot of like writing down directions and going through
holes in the fence and stuff. It was like extremely
detailed and really like it has to be your whole life,
you know, because you get to a spot sometimes you're
waiting for like two days for a train to arrive,

(37:19):
and you have all these different ideas of knowing Okay,
this has like a Freddy on the back. It's like
a blinking light. It means it's going somewhere. You watch
the conductor and the engineer get off, You're like, okay,
we have this amount of time probably before somebody else
comes on. So a lot of that, a lot of
like nerd stuff that I really loved. But I only

(37:43):
tried to get on when it was moving. I'd say
maybe twice, and it was terrifying. At one point I
got thrown off. So I definitely knew, like when not
to temp fate.

Speaker 1 (37:58):
Okay, if you're starting in New York, yeah, how far
would you take the train?

Speaker 2 (38:03):
Well, in New York it was very difficult. We like
went to New Jersey and that was a terrible experience
to try to get out of there. We ended up
going to Buffalo. That was a really scary experience. So
that was hard. What I did, you know, It wasn't
like I solely rode trains, Like I took the Chinatown

(38:24):
bus to Philly, and from Philly is a very much
easier place to get a train or than at some
point I would hitchhike, which I hated doing. That was
like the that I felt like was the most dangerous
of course. So so yeah, getting out of New York
is a shit show. All it all transits.

Speaker 1 (38:47):
So how far are you know Philadelphia? You know, less
than two hours away or so? How far west or
south did you actually get?

Speaker 2 (38:58):
Well, I've written trains like basically on the east coast.
It was mostly the southeast, and I also did the
whole top half of the country, so across Montana, which
is so beautiful and like North Dakota and stuff, and
then also a lot down up and down the West

(39:18):
coast all over the place, because that is just like
it was so beautiful and it was really a lot
easier to do, and a lot of the southeast. So
I never did really the I never did the lower
half of the country, which I regret. And I did
a little bit of going through the Midwest until I

(39:40):
reached Nebraska, which I talk about in a song. And
then we had to like take a greyhound, which was
always like when you took a greyhound, it was like
the biggest humiliation. It was like such defeat that you
you couldn't figure it out or something, you know, So
it was like the walk of a certain type of
walk of shame, and.

Speaker 1 (40:01):
You were doing what for money to you know, eat.

Speaker 2 (40:06):
A lot of spare changing at first, a lot of
like what we would call drug studies, where people would
like ask you about your life on the street. They
would ask you if you did certain drugs or you know,
people trying to like get I guess, like focus group
type information. And also we would eat at like a

(40:29):
lot of Christian feedings. We would do a lot of
dumpster diving. But this was all before I started playing
music on the street, which was when life got a
lot better.

Speaker 1 (40:40):
Okay, So in this long history, you know, punk is
a DIY movement. At what point do you say, hey,
I can do this.

Speaker 2 (40:51):
I don't know. I think probably when I there was
something when I turned sixteen, you know, I won a
poetry contest, and I think that really did something for
my confidence as a writer. And even though I wasn't sure,

(41:12):
I had no idea that I could like play music
because I tried to and I felt like I failed horribly.
That was my perception at the time. But writing poetry
felt really like something I was good at, and I
got really obsessed with beat poetry. I was so into

(41:33):
Alan Ginsburg. I just like thought about him all the
time and read him all the time, and street poetry
really spoke to me, So that was that was really
the beginning. Is like that type of poetry mixed with
going to shows. It felt like, Okay, I think there's
a place for me here somewhere, but I'm not sure

(41:54):
where it is.

Speaker 1 (41:56):
So how did you find it?

Speaker 2 (41:59):
I think through desperation, honestly, you know, the desperation at
first of really needing like camaraderie, really needing people to
be my friend and to feel confused with me and
to feel angry with me. I was really if I

(42:23):
could have hung out, Like hanging out was just like
the best drug to me. I wanted to hang out
all day long. So this feeling of like I need friends,
this isn't like a light thing for me, you know,
It's like if I don't have friends who who see
me as I see myself and who share a worldview,

(42:45):
then I'm I'm gonna not survive because I felt even
though my aunt and uncle gave me so much stability
and love, I was just really struggling mentally and emotionally.
So then the desperation of really leaving home, you know,

(43:05):
like running away and needing a place to stay and
needing to you know, the people I meet, doing a
gut check of like can I trust these people are not?
I don't know. I think something about that desperation led
me to just like really strong connections and also a
feeling of like I don't have a choice, like this

(43:27):
life is for me because this is the only one
I can see.

Speaker 1 (43:34):
Okay, you win the poetry contest. How does it become music?

Speaker 2 (43:41):
Well, really that really started in New Orleans.

Speaker 1 (43:45):
So I oh wait, wait, wait, wait, So you drop
out of school, you're squatting, you go on trains. Do
you not play music on the street until you're in
New Orleans? Yeah? Okay, So how do you end up
in New Orleans?

Speaker 2 (44:04):
Through word of mouth? I ended up back in New
York City, and I'm it was for I think the
RNC was happening there and there were like huge protests,
so all these people were heading back to New York
or heading to New York. I go and I end

(44:25):
up staying at this squatter building and meeting a bunch
of people, and people are telling me that New Orleans
is unlike any other place in America. I came back
from probably eight or nine months on the road just
feeling completely destroyed and like I had one friend with

(44:47):
me and just feeling really lost, and hearing about this city,
I was like, that's where I want to go. So
I actually caught a ride in a van from New
York to New Orleans with some other people that were
living there that are still my friends to today. And

(45:08):
the minute I got there, it was like, yeah, I
felt like this is where I'm supposed to be.

Speaker 1 (45:15):
Well. New Orleans has a unique culture, even a unique
legal system, the French legal system. But it's moist and
it's hot. It's not really good to be poor in
New Orleans. See.

Speaker 2 (45:29):
I was just trying to get away from the cold.
So I was like, bring it on, you know, but
to be fair, when the summer came, we did like
all scatter because the summer is so intense there. But
when I when I got there, you know, it was
definitely a place of the way street kids make money

(45:52):
is playing music. So I met some people who some
two other musicians, this guy Barnabas is kid Kiowa, and
I had this little washboard that someone had given me
and that was how I started to play. They were
you know, we were all hanging out. It was like

(46:12):
a campfire. Kiowa was playing Johnny Cash songs and that
was also a huge like folk awakening for me. Early
on was listening to Johnny Cash, so I knew all
these songs that he was playing, and I started singing
with him. And I was playing my washboard with just
like some fucking rocks or something that I found on

(46:35):
the street, and Barnabas was learning how to play the violin.
So we just like started to gather every day and
think of different songs that we could sing together, like
Tom Waite songs or that's where I started learning Why
Guthrie songs. And through that we formed my first band,

(46:56):
a hobo band called the dead Man Street Orchestra.

Speaker 1 (46:59):
But you're playing the washboard, yeah, And in the first band,
to what degree is it your lyrics in your voice?

Speaker 2 (47:10):
That was hurry for the riff raff. That was the first.
It was after this hobo band that I was in
for about a year. It was when everybody started to
scatter from that, from that project that I felt devastated.

Speaker 1 (47:29):
You know.

Speaker 2 (47:29):
I put so much of my time and so much
of my identity became being in a band with these people,
and I just really remember this feeling of I can't
risk that again. I have to have something that's mine.
So I started putting poetry that I had to song

(47:52):
with my first like instrument after the washboard, which was
the banjo, and it was I was in this apartment
in Brooklyn that all these other feminists were living in
and they let me stay there. You know, they are
probably seven of us in the apartment, and I recorded
my first record or EP on my friend Emily's just

(48:17):
like her laptop with like a built in microphone. I
like locked myself in a room and recorded like eight
or nine songs.

Speaker 1 (48:32):
Okay, the Hobo band is that something you're just playing
around the campfire? Are you playing on the streets? Is
this a working band?

Speaker 2 (48:43):
We would yeah, we would play on the street. So
we would we would ride mostly you know what they
called junk. It's like cargo that is not deemed like
very important. So we had this idea of like, well,
it'll be less secure because you know there's high traffic
stuff that like the security risk is that you're gonna

(49:05):
steal it. So we're like, okay, we'll ride junk all
around the Southeast and end up in tiny little towns
like Waycross, Georgia or like random towns in Florida or
North Carolina. And what we would do is we would
get off the train in this tiny town, go walk,
find like the main street, and basically busk until we

(49:30):
could like meet someone and you know, hopefully meet another punk.
There was a lot of that, looking for anyone who
like looked kind of weird, and sometimes people would let
us play in their backyard. We would end up playing
in a in a you know, a living room or something,
or at a coffee shop. Sometimes we were really a

(49:51):
spectacle because there were like six of us and a dog,
so it was it was easy to attract attention. It
was kind of like we were a magnet that the
weirdos of the town would like be drawn to us,
and suddenly on the third day it would be like,
I've heard about you guys wandering through town, you know.

Speaker 1 (50:12):
And how did that fall apart?

Speaker 2 (50:15):
I think the same way all bands do, you know, Like,
especially at that age, people have these different goals. Someone's
like I'm trying to get on a barge to Alaska.
Someone's like I'm trying to like go on a bike
trip through Europe, like everyone is just everyone had these

(50:35):
like really lofty ideas of like what their next adventure
would be, and it felt like this adventure had run
its course. But a lot of us did end up
in New Orleans, and everyone's still playing music to this day,
just in different projects.

Speaker 1 (50:53):
Okay, you start playing the bando before you get to
New York or when you get to New York.

Speaker 2 (51:01):
I started playing the banjo in New Orleans after I
would say, like, uh, like four or five months into
playing with Dead Man, just because I wanted to sing more.
And everybody in the group had their own folk music inclinations.

(51:23):
You know. Some people who were playing stringed instruments or
the accordion player. They wanted to learn a lot of
like Eastern European music, and I was really drawn to
the old time ballads or like more early country songs
just because what I wanted to do to do was sing.

(51:44):
And that was what I learned with that band, was
that I loved to sing. And I knew that when
I was a kid. When I was a kid, I
would play songs with my dad. But once I hit puberty,
I really lost touch with that, you know. So this
was the beginning of me knowing what kind of lyrics
I liked, what kind of song structures I liked, and

(52:07):
also I started learning some early blues songs like by
Bessie Smith.

Speaker 1 (52:13):
Okay, you're playing the biancho. Then you end up in
New York with these women. How do you end up
in New York?

Speaker 2 (52:21):
Just from the same type of wanderings, you know, it
was like a really long northern journey on the Last
Dead Man Street Orchestra tour where we ended up. The
fiddle players had family and like rural New York I think,
like near Fishkill or something like that. And then it's

(52:44):
like I find I make my way back to the city.
And it was my friends Amelia and Emily, who were
still my best friends today. They were in school and
you know, these like really tough feminists I met who
were a part of that like squatter movement during this

(53:06):
protest period, and they started just like being in regular
contact with me. We would email each other. They started
teaching me about feminism and teaching me like different you know,
they'd like lend me a book that I should read,
like here's Bill Hooks, here's Angela Davis. All these types
of people.

Speaker 1 (53:27):
Okay, you're in the apartment, you record these songs on
a laptop. They become your first EP. As I say,
we're now more than ever you can do it yourself.
When you were singing those songs into the laptop, are
you thinking this is a record or are you thinking
I'm just making a permanent record of the music.

Speaker 2 (53:48):
In my mind, I think at that point I was
thinking I'm making a tape because that was still like
we still had. It was a bit nostalgic, not as
nostalgic as it is now, but there was this like
romanticism about getting a mixtape or something that we were

(54:11):
really excited about, and that was my preferred way of
listening to music. So I think I was thinking, Okay,
I'm gonna record this and then put it on CD.
We all knew CDs were terrible, So I was excited
to make tapes. And I definitely had the intention of
like distributing it, like you know, in a DIY way,

(54:33):
but I was excited to There was something about thinking
I can make this tape and I can give it
to these people and they'll be able to really see me.
There was this really this excitement of being seen in
a way that I felt like I couldn't quite communicate

(54:55):
Throughout just like being myself every day.

Speaker 1 (55:00):
Okay, you record it, you then put it on CD.
Then what do you do?

Speaker 2 (55:10):
Uh? I started just making copies, making tapes, asked a
friend to make some album art for me. We would
have shows at that you know, acoustic shows at that apartment,
and that was something that I was doing. It started

(55:30):
to become more of like, oh, this is something I
could do. I started to take on more of an
identity of I think it's possibly could be a singer songwriter.

Speaker 1 (55:42):
Okay, you put out this EP in two thousand and seven,
you put out two more albums two thousand and eight,
twenty ten. You're doing it. But is it there any reaction?
Is it growing? Are you trying to get on the radio?
What is going on with your career at that point?

Speaker 2 (56:01):
Definitely not trying to get on the radio that I
wish I thought of that time. At first, it was
purely Okay, I'm trying to give something to my friends.
And then you know, I had to make the realization
that was time for me to really buckle down in

(56:21):
New Orleans after the Hobo band fell apart, and I
started to really think like, Okay, I want to live somewhere.
I want to have a home and I want to
focus on songwriting. So I get jobs at coffee shops
and start living in a house with three other four
other artists. And that when I made the record it

(56:45):
don't mean I don't love you. I had started playing
around New Orleans a lot. I made friends with a
local musician there, Walt McClements, who is still making really
beautiful music today. He starts playing with me, he starts
supporting me and just helping me get respect in the local,

(57:08):
you know, underground scene, the scene that's separate from from
the jazz world there, and I was getting a lot
of really great a lot of great support and excitement.
At one point, there was a brief period where I
was able to get a manager and then that fell apart.

(57:31):
And that was during the second record, what I called
the second record, Young Blood Blues. I briefly got a
manager and then she very quickly, you know, dumped me.
And then it was there was a local lawyer who
was hanging out and who was my close friend named

(57:52):
Andy Buiser, and he was like, I'm just going to
become your manager. And from there it felt like, okay,
this is go time. Let's really let's go on tour.
Let's try to do something, you know, And that was
all leading up to making Lookout Mama, and look Out
Mama felt like a real change in my life, like

(58:14):
this is what I do. I'm on the road. I
finally met, you know, a real producer in a even
though it's I call it a real studio, but it
was his house, Andrea Tokic in Nashville.

Speaker 1 (58:29):
Okay, let's go back a little bit. If I heard
you correctly, at this point, when you first moved back
to New Orleans, you have a straight gig working in
the coffee shop. Yeah, okay, that's paying the bills. While
that is going on, you're working on your music. Are
you playing live at all?

Speaker 2 (58:48):
Yeah? A lot of playing live, Yeah.

Speaker 1 (58:51):
For money or just in the background for money.

Speaker 2 (58:57):
Probably not a lot of money. But it was definitely
shows where you know, it's multiple acts, and so I was.
I was definitely playing a lot. And then also I
was still playing on the street. That was when I
started to play on the street purely for money. Was
playing traditional jazz on the banjo or singing, doing both

(59:21):
with some bands that were like pretty established on the
street scene there. And I mean honestly that paid better
than the coffee shop gig. Like that was. I felt
very conflicted with playing in those bands because they paid
so well, but I found them to be so boring,
and all I wanted to do was write my own music.

(59:43):
But I felt like, man, I could play a wedding,
I could play two shifts on the street on a
beautiful day and come out with like four hundred dollars,
because it was like we were just making an insane
amount of money.

Speaker 1 (59:57):
At what point do you start playing the guitar?

Speaker 2 (01:00:01):
That was closer to look Out Mama. I think the
first time I'm recorded playing the guitar was on Young
Blood Blues, and that was the record right before I
look Out Mama. In like twenty ten, I started playing
the guitar because I would go see family in New
York and I would end up at the well. It
wasn't at the Jalapie. It's something called Ruts and Rucis.

(01:00:25):
That is a night of folk music with like many
different revolving performers, and it was it used to be
at Cafe is it? Oh? No, the village, Ma, Yeah,
it used to be at the Village, Ma. A friend
of mine started the night, so I would go play
that for some money and also to see other great

(01:00:47):
folk musicians and be inspired. And it was hanging out
with those people that I started to really fall in
love with the guitar.

Speaker 1 (01:00:58):
Okay, in this you're making a couple of records, you're driven.
Are there any signs that things are opening up you
certain reactions, certain breaks, or you just doing it on
a real underground level.

Speaker 2 (01:01:16):
It was a lot of local reaction, which felt like
the whole world to me. You know, this is really
before we were still like really clued into the internet.
I definitely wasn't. I wasn't really that focused on anything
outside of New Orleans. Anything outside of New Orleans felt
like it was it didn't involve me. So when I

(01:01:39):
would get local reaction, or when I would be on
a show and one hundred people show up at the show,
it felt like, man, I made it, you know. So
that really did a lot for me. But I, like
I said, a major change was when I got in
contact with this look, with this manager and she was

(01:02:02):
talking to you know, she like flew down to meet me.
I'm thinking, like, oh, it's all happening, Like like what
people say is going to happen. And then pretty quickly
she's like, I don't see this going anywhere for you,
you know, which I don't blame her, because at the time,
I don't think I seemed very like like I made

(01:02:22):
sense in any sort of there was like this. It
was kind of still inde sleeves going on or something
going on in music at that time. So that was
I really had to reckon with that. Though I had to.
I think it woke me up and it also made me.

(01:02:45):
It made me less naive of Oh, things are just
going to flow. It's going to be some like music
documentary where someone discovers you and then you're a folk
star or something like that that you see. It made
me think, Okay, I don't want to play jazz gigs

(01:03:06):
for my living anymore. That's not what I like to do.
I need to find a way to get more serious
about my songwriting. And that's when Andy Buiser became my manager,
and when I made look Out Mama. That was when
I started to feel like, Okay, let's try to make something.
Let's try to get attention from outside of this city.

Speaker 1 (01:03:30):
Okay, at what point do you call it hooray for
the riff raf.

Speaker 2 (01:03:36):
From the beginning from the very first one.

Speaker 1 (01:03:40):
Okay, I have to ask the obvious question, why hooray
for the riff.

Speaker 2 (01:03:44):
Rath Okay, my memory is shoddy, but I remember that
fiddle player I mentioned Barnabas. We were all, you know
that the Jovo band ended up at this their family house.
They let like the six seven hobo kids like all sleepover,
and we're all hanging out and we were all saying goodbye.

(01:04:06):
The next day we got like, I think she dropped
me and Barnabas off at a train yard nearby. We
were going somewhere and she said something about riff raff
and she said it in this really like loving way,
just and it. I remember in that moment thinking like

(01:04:26):
I like that. And I'd already been toying around with like, well,
what would I call a band if it was just
my band? What would you know? I really didn't like
the idea of just using my name. I was a
big fan of cat Power, and I was like, I
loved that she had a cool, weird name, you know.
I just thought like it was more mysterious, So I

(01:04:47):
got it. I remember it was inspired by my friend's mom.
And then and then I used.

Speaker 1 (01:04:53):
To Okay, there are a million bands who say, hey,
we just settled on a name, and if we knew
it was going to be the ultimate name of a
big wish, it wasn't this. Are you happy that it's
hooray for the riff Raff?

Speaker 2 (01:05:08):
I wouldn't say I'm overjoyed, but I've learned to. I've
learned to love it. I've learned to. I think it's
good for me that I have to you know, I'm here.
It's kind of like when you get a tattoo when
you're seventeen. It's like, I'm still very much in touch

(01:05:31):
with that young kid. And also I do think that
the threads and the themes are still so much of
what inspires me and what is like the colors that
I paint with, you know, I think that a lot
has changed, and also like the main themes are still there.

Speaker 1 (01:05:51):
Okay, you make the Lookout Mom a record? What changes
after you make that?

Speaker 2 (01:05:57):
That was when we started to get more attention. That
was when you know, we're still the tours. We were
still rough, but at that age, I'm probably like twenty
four twenty five, I was just so excited to like
live on the road for two months in the van

(01:06:18):
and we start meeting other like like minded musicians that
are it felt like there was something really happening in
the Southeast that was really exciting. And that was when,
you know, as I was making the next record, small
Town Heroes, or writing those songs, I started to get

(01:06:38):
contacted by Ato Records, by this woman Kirby Lee, who
actually saw me play at a Roots and Ruckus set
in New York one time, like when I'm playing by
myself and she, you know, approached me and we became
fast friends. And that was my first time getting attention

(01:07:00):
from a label. And also then the next record, small
Town Heroes, was my first record with a label in
the US.

Speaker 1 (01:07:08):
Okay, you're going on the road. It's a band? Is
it the same people? How did the economics work?

Speaker 2 (01:07:17):
We split everything equally, which I think was very generous.
I just didn't you know we would just split everything
split like the CD sales. I mean back then CD
sales were you could be like a working, just like
hustling musician and you sold so many CDs. It's so

(01:07:41):
crazy to think that, Like, we don't sell physical copies anymore.
You know, I had made I made look Out Mama
into physical pressings through a Kickstarter. That was how we
paid for the vinyl and how we paid for like
the album art and everything, but we would split everything equally.

(01:08:01):
We would sleep on people's floors. Sometimes at the end
of a set, we'd be like, and we're looking for
blades to stay We like end up staying in random
people's houses. So it was it was very like still Hoboesque,
but it was the same people for that period of time.

(01:08:22):
I'd say, like look Out Mama and Small Town were
a similar group, a similar band. It was two people
from a band called the Deslons that are still going
and Yos Pearlstein who played on h Young Blood Blues

(01:08:42):
and look at Mama and small Town Heroes.

Speaker 1 (01:08:45):
So yeah, okay, Kickstarter, how much money do you ask for?
And in Kickstarter you have to reach that level on
like cah go go how much money? And how do
you get the word out?

Speaker 2 (01:08:59):
Uh? Well, I think think that was when Facebook was
finally here, So we were putting it out to like
a lot of our friends and family, and I think
it's like I want to say, it was not a
lot like seventy five hundred or something. I should find
it because you know, we were recording with Andrea at

(01:09:23):
his house still, so it wasn't like a crazy amount
and we just wanted to make physical you know, CDs,
So it wasn't a lot, but we made our goal
and and yeah, I thought it was a big success.

Speaker 1 (01:09:41):
Now you made a covers album via Kickstarter after that, right, well, that.

Speaker 2 (01:09:45):
Was one of their rewards. I wanted to give people
a reward, so I said, okay, you'll get uh, you'll
get some of my covers record that I'll also record
with Andrea as like an incentive. And you know, I
think we had we had like a mailing li at
the time. We definitely had some like cult fan base
in the Southeast, particularly because that was where we would

(01:10:09):
you know, tour so often in like Alabama and North
Carolina and Georgia. So there were people that were really supportive.

Speaker 1 (01:10:25):
Okay, this comes out before the person from Ato makes contact.
Other than getting the money on kickscharter and having enough
money to make the record, did that grow the act?

Speaker 2 (01:10:39):
Yeah? I mean it really it felt like that record
was reaching outside of our bubble. It felt like people
were hearing about it. It felt like we could go
on tour on the West Coast, and people would come.
It felt like there was a word of mouth and
it was also at a good time for that sound.
I felt like that sound was you know, during that time,

(01:11:00):
we met Brittany and members of Alabama Sheikhs, and there
was a band Shovels and Rope. It felt like there
was really something going on with that type of sound.
So it felt like it was growing for sure.

Speaker 1 (01:11:14):
Okay, by time you get the deal with Ato, is
the lawyer still your manager? Do you have an agent?
What's the status of the band?

Speaker 2 (01:11:26):
By the time Ato came to us, Andy was still
our manager and it was signing with Ato. I'd say
after small Town when we started to realize that it
was getting really big for him, you know, he started
starting his own family that and then Kirby Lee, who
signed me, actually became my manager.

Speaker 1 (01:11:49):
And who is your manager today, Chris chen So how
did you get from Kirby to Chris.

Speaker 2 (01:11:57):
Gosh? I mean, well, me and Kirk we were together
for a couple of records and that was amazing, and
we were really we were best friends and we still
are very very close. And I felt like after you know,
me and Kirby were together from small Town till the Navigator,

(01:12:19):
and after the Navigator, things in my life and in
the life of the band felt really confusing. After I
put out that record, I had no idea what to do.
And then you know, after that, we're hit with the pandemic.
So I was in a really tough spot and me

(01:12:39):
and Kirby weren't working together anymore. And actually Chris Chris
chen I met him because when none Such approached me,
uh after the Navigator, he was working at None Such.
So we became friends and stayed in touch, and it
was through that meeting that he became my manager.

Speaker 1 (01:12:59):
Okay, let's back up. Yeah, you're an ATO. Do you
have an agent?

Speaker 2 (01:13:05):
At first we didn't. Then we eventually signed with Josh
Brinkman for a little bit. This is the part of
the interview I'm going to be bad at because I
feel like I don't remember a lot of people's names.
But we're with Josh Brinkman for a little and he
became our booking agent. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:13:23):
Well, how many booking agents since then?

Speaker 2 (01:13:27):
Uh? Just too including the one that we're with now.
So now we're with Martial Debts.

Speaker 1 (01:13:35):
And what is the difference between booking agents.

Speaker 2 (01:13:41):
Well, I think there's been a big difference in me.
You know, I learned a lot with small town Heroes
because I was coming from this scene in New Orleans
that it wasn't the genre didn't really matter as much,
and I didn't really understand anything about like your presentation

(01:14:04):
and your brand and all these types of just like
aesthetic choices that you make about a band and how
that affects where you play, the type of festivals you play, like,
you know, the genre that you end up in, and
small town heroes to me, I didn't really know that
it would mean I would be on this Americana track,

(01:14:27):
which is funny to say now, but I wanted to
get off of it pretty fast once I was. Once
I put out that record, I felt like I was
presenting myself the wrong way, and it was really hard
for the people that work with me to understand what
I meant. You know, It's like I don't want to

(01:14:48):
play these like Americana festivals. It's like, well, you play
Americana music, so what do you want. So that's why
with The Navigator, I wanted to really shift the focus
and I wanted to take the reins and just change
the track of where I was going.

Speaker 1 (01:15:06):
You know, that's not that easy. Was it easy for you.

Speaker 2 (01:15:10):
To seem so hard? So hard? And so many people
were like, you're ruining your career, and I don't even
doubt them. I was just like, well, I'm miserable though
I'm in situations. I was in environments where I felt
extremely un like respected and I felt very sometimes unsafe,

(01:15:35):
just like I felt like an outsider at my own gigs,
you know, not ones that were particularly for me, but
I felt like I was being placed in the wrong settings.
And I just had this idea of yeah, I play
the singer songwriter music and sometimes there's a fiddle, but
it's still a little bit indie rock. It's still a
little bit off kilter. I don't want to go down

(01:15:58):
this like I want to somehow show the off kilter
of it and show that it's still a little bit
weird in the best use of the word, you know.
So it was really difficult, and a lot of people
were just like, you're not gonna be able to do this.
And luckily, I feel like now genre has been blown up,

(01:16:23):
so I think it's working a lot better than it
did at first.

Speaker 1 (01:16:26):
So at first it was a struggle career wise.

Speaker 2 (01:16:30):
Definitely The Navigator in general was a really hard time
for me. I'm so proud of that record, and I'm
so proud of of just like the campaign that we
made and the people that I worked with. You know,
I was working with shore Fire. I still do on publicity,

(01:16:50):
and I learned so much in how that was a
part of my art. You know, that was a major
I think, just a tool that I was able to
express these other parts of myself, Like I was able
to talk to writers I really respect, and to thinkers
and to show the side of me that I think
is a huge part of the music. But as far

(01:17:15):
as as educating an audience, taking you know, taking them
a new direction from this like idea of me that
they first met with small Town, it was really hard.
And it was also a very you know, it was
the beginning of a very tense political climate of course,

(01:17:40):
so it was just rough. Being on the road was rough.
Playing shows was rough. Sometimes we'd get heckled. I mean,
I've been pretty lucky with stuff like that, but a
lot of like why are you speaking out about things
like go back to playing the fucking banjo or whatever.
You know, it was really it was a really hard time.

Speaker 1 (01:18:01):
Okay, in this evolution, did the audience adjust or did
people fall off and you get new people?

Speaker 2 (01:18:11):
People fell off and I got new people, and then
you know there is a section that adjusts. I think
there's a there's a core group that always saw me
as just an artist, a songwriter. I think some people
who've who've like, they have artists that they love, and
they also are willing to go down a journey with

(01:18:35):
them and expect changes and expect different influences. So people
who listen in that way and our fans in that
way were ready for the ride and if anything, excited
about it. And then some people drop off and then
you make new fans or I made new fans.

Speaker 1 (01:18:57):
Okay, you obviously decide I did to go down this path,
and you were staying the path. But in the transition,
which had was not one hundred percent smooth, to what
degree were you personally angstying?

Speaker 2 (01:19:13):
Oh it's really hard. Yeah, I was experiencing a lot
of stage fright. I was experiencing just like I still
was in a place where I wasn't that worried about
like my overall future. I still think I had some
of that like gift of like of youth where I

(01:19:37):
was like, no, I'm on my hero's journey and something
is going to happen. But I hated the feeling of
being misunderstood and I hated the feeling of being scared.
And I felt like when I had to go play
sometimes I had to come out with such a warrior energy,

(01:19:59):
and it is exhausting to be a warrior all the time.
I felt like I wasn't giving the subtlety that I wanted,
and it was also just really hard on my nervous system,
hard on my body, and also you know, we're like
still in the van, so it's just a hard touring life. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:20:21):
So if you put out that album The Navigator, at
what point do you say, I've turned it around. I'm comfortable,
this is who I am. It's working. If you've even
reached that point.

Speaker 2 (01:20:36):
I think it took a lot of time. It took,
you know. Now is when I feel like that, because
people mention that record to me, and it's so it
blows my mind every time. I'm like, Wow, I'm so
glad that you're here. You know. Now, people talk about
Balante and at first, like I remember telling people about

(01:21:00):
this song and it was just like I felt crazy.
I felt, you know, they didn't know what this word meant.
I hardly knew what the word meant. It means to
keep going. It's like Puerto Rican slang about continuing on.
So and I will say, even though during that time

(01:21:20):
I didn't know, I felt very uncertain about the audience reception.
I did feel like the people I worked with were
real believers. The producer Paul Paul Butler was such a
believer and we I felt like I went through like
a spiritual transformation while making that record. That that was

(01:21:44):
how I survived because I felt a very deep spiritual
connection to the music.

Speaker 1 (01:21:51):
Okay, you produce the first ATO record, as you say,
Paul Butler produced the second. What's that transition about.

Speaker 2 (01:22:02):
I think I just understood that I don't want to
be good at everything, or I don't have to be
the best at everything. I felt like I wanted some guidance.
I wanted to say, hey, I don't know what to
do with this, and also to say I'm at a
stalemate here, help me get out, you know, like I'm

(01:22:26):
trying to change my sound or I'm trying to expand it,
I should say. And I was listening to a lot
of Georgia Ben and listening to Rodriguez. So I had
all these sounds in my head and also this idea
of like this music should be put to a play
that I was also working on the side that was writing.

(01:22:51):
So I wanted a creative partner. And when I met Paul,
I just knew that this was it and he would
challenged me, but he was also really excited to make
something ambitious.

Speaker 1 (01:23:06):
Okay, you know Ato, the majors mean less, the independence
mean more. I remember when Ato was much smaller. Aho
is kind of a major thing now. But you're making
these two records. How much money are they giving you
to make these records.

Speaker 2 (01:23:23):
For a small town. We really didn't get a lot, uh,
because you know, Andrea was extremely affordable at the time.
I'm sure its rates have gone up, but also we
didn't really need We had a band, so that was
the touring band for Navigator. We had to get more,

(01:23:43):
and I don't know, like it wasn't a lot. I
would say it was like when me or I don't know.
I feel like I'm the worst person to ask, but
I remember it not being an insane amount.

Speaker 1 (01:23:57):
Okay, let's be point blank for the ato records. They
cost X Did you ever make a royalty? No? Okay,
at this point in time, other than selling music at
the gig, are you making any money from music being
streamed or used in any way online?

Speaker 2 (01:24:21):
From my early record well? Actually no, that's like I
didn't even have them. Well, I was selling them at
the gigs, you know, I had these CDs that I
could sell at the gig.

Speaker 1 (01:24:31):
But I'm talking about online.

Speaker 2 (01:24:33):
Oh online? No, no, no, no.

Speaker 1 (01:24:35):
To this day, you're not making any money from online?

Speaker 2 (01:24:39):
Not really no, I mean definitely not recouped.

Speaker 1 (01:24:43):
So okay, wait before you switch to none, such, what
does the touring look like? Are you headlining? Are you opening? What?
And how are you traveling? Et cetera.

Speaker 2 (01:24:57):
A lot of headlining the gigs were not as frequent.
It would be like an occasional gig.

Speaker 1 (01:25:05):
You know, Well, do you're not opening by you know,
I have a friend who's got a philosophy. My acts
never open, so if somebody comes, they're coming to see them.
It might be a smaller gig, but it's their audience. Yeah,
Were you headlining by choice because of that or it
just happened that way?

Speaker 2 (01:25:24):
We would do which we still do you know, like
a year of headlining and then hoping to get it, like,
I'll definitely go on a tour like I just went,
you know, for Life on Earth. I went on tour
with Bright Eyes for like on and off for like
four or five months. And if it's the right act

(01:25:46):
then and it pays the bills, then for sure, I'll
do it. But it seemed like nobody was really knocking
on our door to open. And yeah, I really agree
that we had a small but dedicated fan base. It
just was better for us to headline.

Speaker 1 (01:26:03):
Okay, bright Eyes got a good reputation, not exactly your sound.
How was that experience opening for Bright Eyes?

Speaker 2 (01:26:12):
It was it really it made more sense than you'd think.
You know, we're all like in that band, and for me,
we're all obsessed with the song. You know, it's very
song storyteller focused. And also these are guys that are
interested in all genres just like me. It was a

(01:26:36):
really amazing experience. Life on Earth was my last record,
and that was also a tough time for me and
a tough time on the road. Coming back through pandemic
times and going on tour with them saved me. I also,
I didn't grow up as big of a Bright Eyes fan.

(01:26:57):
Of course I knew who they were, and of course
I listened to some songs on mixtapes and stuff, But
this was my first time really experiencing Connor's lyrical genius
every night, and that was a lifesaver. Hearing those lyrics
every night just expanded my mind. I felt like, okay,

(01:27:18):
I'm learning each night, you.

Speaker 1 (01:27:20):
Know, Okay, tell me about switching to none such.

Speaker 2 (01:27:26):
It was again, well, this was right before the pandemic.
My you know, my time with Ato ran its course,
and I had these.

Speaker 1 (01:27:39):
Yeah, theoretically, if you'd wanted to make another record with Ato,
could you have? And if not, was it with a
choice to separate their's yours?

Speaker 2 (01:27:49):
It was their?

Speaker 1 (01:27:50):
Okay?

Speaker 2 (01:27:51):
Yeah, you know the Navigator. It wasn't a huge success commercially,
and I think again, like for people who first worked
with me with small town heroes, maybe they thought that
they were getting a certain type of artists and then
I do this complete change or it. You know, it
was a pretty drastic change. And then coming into life

(01:28:14):
on Earth, the demos I had were even weirder. And
now I'm like playing with electronics stuff and I'm just
starting to go in this just experimenting in this other way.
So I think it just wasn't what they were interested in,
and none such was really.

Speaker 1 (01:28:33):
Well, was a little bit slower, a little bit slower. Huh,
Ato says we're going to part ways. Yeah, how do
you handle that emotionally?

Speaker 2 (01:28:45):
I mean, even though I'm sensitive, I can be really
tough and stubborn where I'm just like okay, like I'm
gonna find a way where there is no way.

Speaker 1 (01:28:57):
Okay. Then, how does nuns you said, nuns such found you?

Speaker 2 (01:29:02):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (01:29:03):
I mean, did you have a manager of somebody putting
out demos feelers? How did none such ultimately make contact
with you?

Speaker 2 (01:29:10):
Yeah? I mean I think it was probably I had
a brief manager after Kirby Lee, and I feel like
that was the connection. I remember meeting, you know, David
By there came to New Orleans, where I lived at
the time. I just recently moved.

Speaker 1 (01:29:30):
And wait, wait we live where now?

Speaker 2 (01:29:34):
And now I live in Chicago.

Speaker 1 (01:29:36):
And why Chicago?

Speaker 2 (01:29:39):
I love it here. I mean also, my whole band
is based out of here, and I've I've slowly started
to become obsessed with the music scene in Chicago that
this like independent music scene specifically my Bassis Namdi, who
puts out really he's been putting out really amazing weird
music forever. Also send Marie Mooto. There's just like a

(01:30:01):
really cool scene of kind of genre lists, really inspired
artists here. So I started making friends and I'm excited
about the change.

Speaker 1 (01:30:15):
Okay, so by There comes to New Orleans and.

Speaker 2 (01:30:19):
And we have a dinner and it was really great
and I felt really respected, and it was just everything
I was looking for, you know. It was It's like
a prestigious label with uh, just a roster of artists
that I'm I'm just like, I want to have a

(01:30:41):
career like that. I want to have a career that's long.
I want to have a career that is inspired and
takes chances where the art is is first. And so
I felt like that was the home for me.

Speaker 1 (01:30:55):
Well, No Such is great on a million levels, and
by There was great, but point blank, you've made two
records for None Such, which really is a major label.
You know, it lives in its own world, but it's
part of the Warner Group, et cetera. What is different
about being un Done Such as opposed to your prior records.

Speaker 2 (01:31:19):
I mean, I think I've I think the experiences are
pretty similar, honestly, like I've never had the experience of
people telling me what to do with the art. I've
gotten lucky for both rounds with Ato and None Such
that they're very the artist knows what you want, so

(01:31:43):
so yeah, I would say, I mean also, of course,
like this time for life on Earth and for for
the past is still alive. The money was better, and
especially I needed that because I'm working with a producer,
Brad Cook, and just like everything's leveled up and it's
kind of like, okay, we're in the big leagues. Now

(01:32:03):
we got to do some big leak stuff, you know, Okay, you.

Speaker 1 (01:32:14):
Know, irrelevant of view, irrelevant of none such. The landscape
continues to evolve. The old paradigm has dead. You know,
let's get print to TV, getting on the radio now,
you know, it's more. Yeah, you have your fan base,
but growing your fan base is on the road. And
then there's like some luck you know, Spotify, TikTok. You know,

(01:32:38):
is there anything that None such has done in particular
that a previous outfit did not do that you can
see to your benefit.

Speaker 2 (01:32:47):
I think they were just very supportive to what to
the process I was going through. I think Life on Earth.
You know, Life on Earth also wasn't a blockbus by
any means, but they were very patient and very supportive
of this weird record I made that I really believe in,

(01:33:09):
and then I think staying with me and staying supportive
during that time and giving me what I needed to
make the past is still alive. This is by far
like the most successful record I've made, and I think
it'll continue to be. I think it'll be a life
changing record for me, and I think when other labels

(01:33:32):
would have started to really freak out, they were just
extremely supportive and really listened to me and Chris and
followed our lead.

Speaker 1 (01:33:42):
Okay, how can you feel or how you measuring that
the new latest album is so successful?

Speaker 2 (01:33:50):
I can feel it in the audiences. I can feel
it also just in like a cultural sense. It feels
like it's I mean, the type of press that I've
gotten and the responses that I've gotten, it feels like
it really connected, like the vision I had in mind

(01:34:12):
was being I brought it to people. And also I'm
starting to feel like other avenues are opening up for me,
like this record has somehow opened up avenues for me
in writing and in meeting other thinkers that I really respect,
and just getting into rooms that I felt like I

(01:34:33):
was locked out of before because I'm just like a
musician solely. Something about this record has really opened up
a multi faceted future for me. I think.

Speaker 1 (01:34:45):
Now, if I remember correctly, they did a feature on
you in the New York Times, Right, that feels good?
You know, did you hear from the people you grew
up with? Did it have any effect? Or you say
that was nice?

Speaker 2 (01:34:59):
Now it's Wednesday, Definitely, that was nice. Now it's Wednesday, definitely,
that was nice. Time to go on tour. We better
fucking sell tickets on this tour, you know. And in
that way, I think, I think things are still growing
for sure in the touring world. That's where my focus is.

(01:35:21):
Is like I want to get out of the fucking
van and I'm just stubborn as hell, and I'm gonna
work until I do. You know, there's a huge chasm
between like van band to bus band. It feels like
the fucking Grand Canyon, like you just you don't know

(01:35:42):
how to get over there. And I think a lot
of it is luck and the right timing and the
right placement and the right like you know. So that's
my like struggle right now. But I'm gonna just keep working.

Speaker 1 (01:35:58):
Okay, the economics. You know, you were literally, you know,
a squatter. What's your economic status today?

Speaker 2 (01:36:08):
I mean I feel rich. It's like I can pay rent,
and I mean my life is still compared to other people.
It's like I don't have a car, you know, I
don't own any land or anything. I don't I but
I can go out to dinner, I can pay my rent.
I'm just I'm also constantly working. I'm at a place

(01:36:28):
where I'd really love to not tour as much as
I do. I've been on tour on and off since February,
you know. I've had like two weeks off recently, and
it was so good for my body. So I'd love
to get to a place where I'm not consistently touring.
Because I tour and then I find a way to

(01:36:49):
tour the second year of a record, and then when
that starts to dry up, I'm like, well, I can
do solo shows.

Speaker 1 (01:36:56):
You know.

Speaker 2 (01:36:56):
There's always some kind of get back on the road
to make some money hustle, and I want to start writing.
I want to find a way to spend more time
at home.

Speaker 1 (01:37:10):
So tell me about how you cope with the pandemic.

Speaker 2 (01:37:14):
By writing through it. For sure, I felt really lucky
to be in New Orleans. It's just it was so
beautiful and we didn't have to deal with like the winner,
you know. I was always able to go outside. Luckily
we had a democratic governor who believed in science, or
else I think we would have been fucked, you know.

(01:37:37):
So I felt like the state actually handled it really well.
We were able to get testing pretty early on. It
was also the time that I met Brad that I
started to a friend, I'm a terrible driver. I'm like
always a New Yorker who didn't grow up driving. So

(01:38:00):
I didn't want to fly, of course, So I convinced
two separate friends on two separate trips, to drive with
me to Durham, and I'd like, get an Airbnb and
we would get, you know, get tested, and then I'd
go get into the studio with Brad. So that was
how I coped, was making life on Earth and meeting

(01:38:23):
Brad and getting inspired in that way.

Speaker 1 (01:38:26):
And how'd you cope financially?

Speaker 2 (01:38:30):
I was pretty okay, I mean, really not doing anything helped.
Not doing anything, not going anywhere definitely had to like
buckle down. But also I'd just gotten this. I felt
really lucky to have gotten a record deal, you know,
before the pandemic hit. It was like a week before

(01:38:53):
so where I feel like maybe they would have been
a little bit more timid about signing me. A couple
of weeks later, when the world shuts down, I just
had this record deal go through. I felt like, let's
I don't know. I felt like there was actually a
lot of opportunity for me, and I was so happy

(01:39:14):
to not be on tour.

Speaker 1 (01:39:16):
Okay, I've seen you live Beyond before the pandemic. I'm aware.
But in all the press for these none such work,
they've referenced non binary and they them pronouns.

Speaker 2 (01:39:32):
Ye.

Speaker 1 (01:39:33):
Is it just because this is something I'm aware of
now or is it something that was always the case
in I'm late or is it a change what's going
on there?

Speaker 2 (01:39:45):
It was a change during the pandemic. I think there
was something about not being you know, this word perceived
that I feel like people are using a lot. It
was a but a major time of I was getting
a lot of nostalgia and I was also doing a

(01:40:05):
lot of recounting my life and the people that meant
a lot to me, and a lot of those people
are trans people. That's a huge part of this band
still existing is just like trans community throughout my whole life.
Somehow coming in seeing me the way I saw myself

(01:40:28):
supporting me. And there was this moment in the Pandemic
where I just kind of got this little inkling of like,
why am I not allowing myself to just like, for
lack of a better term, to like fuck around with gender,
Like why don't I allow myself that freedom? I allow

(01:40:48):
myself a lot of creative freedom, but I have I
focus so much on performance and the art and the band.
And it felt like giving myself this gift to allow
my own personal life and the way that I see
myself and the way I communicate with people and ask

(01:41:09):
them to address me and stuff. It felt like a
gift of allowing myself, Yeah, a new freedom and an exploration.
It's also extremely vulnerable because you're just you're like, well,
a lot of people aren't going to get it. Some
people are going to make fun of it. Some people

(01:41:30):
it's going to make them really mad, and you're not
sure why. But it felt like suddenly I was getting
closer to this, to the truth of like the kid
in me who never felt like gender quite made sense

(01:41:51):
to me in my experience of it, who felt like
I was always this like kind of third other thing.
And it felt like I feel very fine with that,
you know. Just it felt like I was giving myself
a gift to be a little bit more complicated to
people and to not care.

Speaker 1 (01:42:10):
You know, theoretically you could have changed this but not
announced it. You chose to announce it because.

Speaker 2 (01:42:22):
Because it's just the truth of where I'm at, you know,
announcing it. Also, it mostly was just telling press like
when they write when they wrote about me, And also
I felt like, well, people are also gonna write whatever
they want. But it felt important to me to say

(01:42:43):
this is where I'm at. This would have been thinking about,
you know, and this is how I see myself. So
you can refer to me as this or you cannot.
But I'm still going to be doing what I'm doing.

Speaker 1 (01:42:57):
Okay, So you have these thoughts. You gave yourself this freedom, Yeah,
has your life changed or it's a terrible term to
say you've acted on this freedom. But once you've come
to this realization and announced it has your life changed.

Speaker 2 (01:43:16):
I feel a sense of relief and I feel, you know,
who knows what of it is also from just aging
in the great way of a new confidence and just
more of a rooted feeling in knowing who I am.

(01:43:37):
You know, I definitely feel like what's funny about freeing
yourself from identity is like then you just get new categories.
It's like then you get more boxed in in a way,
but as far. But I also feel like that has
so much to do with outside perception and the Internet

(01:43:58):
and just like all this bullshit when it comes to me,
It's like, I feel happier at this time in my
life than I've ever felt. And I think a lot
of that is by is a testament to just being
honest about who I am and to be unapologetic about it.

Speaker 1 (01:44:19):
You mentioned that you had a lot of trans friends
the trans community. I certainly have trans people, I know.
I guess what I'm saying is the way you mentioned
it sound like you had more trans friends than someone
who might live in the city, and for some reason

(01:44:41):
you fell into a world where you had more trans friends.
Is it just the luck of the draw, or is
there something about your drawn to this community and how
does that affect you.

Speaker 2 (01:44:53):
I was definitely drawn to the community for sure. I
think also there was something going on in the punk
scene when I was, you know, in Turning, like eighteen nineteen,
that there was this like queer punk like revolution happening.
And I was also meeting a lot of trans train writers.

(01:45:16):
You know, my old fiddle player Yo C. Pearlstein, who
was on three records. We rode freight trains together before
he joined the band, and he was a part of
like a really cool crew of trans train writers called
bent Rails. So it was definitely the world that I
was drawn to. And I felt like when I would

(01:45:39):
be in these very queer spaces, very trans spaces, I
felt a sense of freedom.

Speaker 1 (01:45:46):
You know.

Speaker 2 (01:45:46):
I used to play this one DIY festival out in
rural Tennessee called Ida that was all mostly trans artists,
and I couldn't I didn't have the language for why
I felt well, extremely why I felt more comfortable there,
but I just knew that I did. So it was

(01:46:08):
just something that I kept with me this whole time.

Speaker 1 (01:46:11):
Are you in a relationship presently?

Speaker 2 (01:46:14):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (01:46:16):
And I'm going to ask, yeah, man, woman, trans person.

Speaker 2 (01:46:21):
It's as a man. Yeah, okay, And how long has
this gone on for a year now?

Speaker 1 (01:46:31):
And you live together with him in this apartment?

Speaker 2 (01:46:34):
I do, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:46:35):
And is he a musician?

Speaker 2 (01:46:37):
He is, yeah, but he doesn't he does, he's mostly
does front of house.

Speaker 1 (01:46:42):
Now and in the past with this itinerant lifestyle. Yeah,
have you been mostly solo or had relationships mostly solo?

Speaker 2 (01:46:53):
A lot of obsessive songwriting.

Speaker 1 (01:46:57):
Yeah, and prior to now, what is the law longest
relationship you've had?

Speaker 2 (01:47:03):
It was for actually for seven years?

Speaker 1 (01:47:05):
Seven years a long time.

Speaker 2 (01:47:07):
It is a long time. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:47:08):
How old were you when this happened?

Speaker 2 (01:47:12):
This was after Navigator, which is how I see my
life in the chapters of albums. But yeah, it was
for seven years after Navigator until you know, until pretty recently.

Speaker 1 (01:47:26):
Okay, I mean until pretty recently. Yeah, was this person?
What was their life about?

Speaker 2 (01:47:34):
They were not a musician. I don't normally I just
don't really talk about my especially not for people who
are not in the music world. So I try to
give them their privacy.

Speaker 1 (01:47:48):
Okay, Then let me ask you a different question. Why
did it end?

Speaker 2 (01:47:53):
Gosh, just like complete fork in the road, life, life stuff,
definitely two different lifestyles me, especially going into these last
two records, being like I need to pedal to the metal,
do everything I can for my career, you know, and

(01:48:16):
their life is very not like this. And also I
think I think there is something to just like to
not wanting a traditional relationship, not wanting a traditional not
wanting marriage eventually you know that type of life.

Speaker 1 (01:48:35):
Okay, but relationships of that length. Breakups are really hard. Yeah,
sometimes you get back together other people. I'm more of
this school. It's like when it's done, I can't have
contact with you, it's just too painful.

Speaker 2 (01:48:50):
Yeah, for sure.

Speaker 1 (01:48:52):
What is going on with you in this person?

Speaker 2 (01:48:54):
That's definitely more of it. I'm you know, But I
also have I feel lucky to be a part of
a world that's like, even though it's big, it's small,
and I definitely feel a lot of love. But I
feel so like, especially mixing that with the loss of

(01:49:19):
my dad, it's like, right now I have to be
like I'm forward motion and I'm changing my life and
I'm going to a new chapter because if I look back,
it's just so difficult. It's just like the nostalgia will
just like take over me. And also it's like this
this grief about being a younger version of myself and

(01:49:44):
just like a different part of life. It really feels
like that was a magical time and now it's like
I have to let that be and I need to
find a way to, you know, keep moving and look
forward to the future.

Speaker 1 (01:49:58):
When did your father pass us?

Speaker 2 (01:50:01):
He passed away a month before this record. We supported
it before I recorded it. Yeah, so it was a
year ago in February, and then I went into the
studio in March. So it was really sudden, and it
was pretty Yeah, it was pretty recent.

Speaker 1 (01:50:22):
Okay, you've had this parapatetic lifestyle, you drop out of
high school, you go on the road. Now, as we
said earlier in the New York Times, where were your father,
your aunt, and your uncle about all this?

Speaker 2 (01:50:40):
They were really supportive. My dad particularly was really supportive
of my music. You know. He he randomly sent me,
like the week that he got sick, he randomly sent
me a box with every CD I'd ever sent him.

(01:51:02):
Because I just like thought he was the coolest. I mean,
he drove me crazy, but he was like a jazz musician,
so I just thought he was the shit. And he
sent me. It was CDs from jazz bands on the
Street that I'd sent him that I was recorded on.
It was the dead Man Street Orchestra, was all my
early records.

Speaker 1 (01:51:21):
You know.

Speaker 2 (01:51:21):
He's on the cover of Lookout Mama. So that was
a huge moment for him. So he was so supportive.
And my aunt and uncle were really supportive too.

Speaker 1 (01:51:33):
Let's be very clear, when you're riding the trains and
you're in the Dead Mid Orchestra, were they supportive then?

Speaker 2 (01:51:41):
I mean more so are you gonna die? Like? My
aunt for sure went through many years of are you
going to die?

Speaker 1 (01:51:50):
Like?

Speaker 2 (01:51:50):
That was just I mean, bless her heart, you know,
Like to me, I was like, I'm having the time
of my fucking life, even when it's horrible, I'm having
the time of my life. And to her, she's just like,
what are you doing? Are you gonna survive? You know?
Once I started, I think her life got a lot
easier when I like settled in New Orleans, got a job,

(01:52:14):
and she was excited that I was, you know, starting
to write songs, and she didn't understand the music at all.
It's definitely not her style of music. But once that
started happening, there was so much relief. There was never
a lot of like shame about me not going to college.
I mean now we joke about how I saved so

(01:52:35):
much debt, Like I'm not in debt because I didn't
go to fucking college, you know. So, but there was
this relief and appreciation when when I started this band.

Speaker 1 (01:52:49):
And what is your brother up to?

Speaker 2 (01:52:52):
He was a police officer in New York for a
long time. That was attention. That was like to completely
separate it separate people. But he was super supportive too.
We just like didn't talk about politics ever.

Speaker 1 (01:53:09):
Okay, do you have health insurance?

Speaker 2 (01:53:11):
I do? Now?

Speaker 1 (01:53:12):
Yeah, when did you get it?

Speaker 2 (01:53:15):
Uh? Well, actually when I signed to none such.

Speaker 1 (01:53:18):
Okay, So you've had this amazing career going on for
basically two decades at this point or so. You're living
the dream. But you're an incredibly driven, persistent person, constantly
putting one foot in front of the other. Yeah, what
is the dream? What is the target in front of you?

Speaker 2 (01:53:42):
I think about this all the time. For me, it's
that I want to get to a place where I
can have when I can where I have a solid
and supportive crew that I can pay well, and that
we can tour in a way that's easier on our bodies,

(01:54:03):
and that also we're putting on the best show we
can put on. Like, I want to feel more support
in doing the art of performing, so that means I
would My goal is to get to a place where
I have a small crew, you know, like monitors, front
of house, maybe lighting, and my band, and that we

(01:54:27):
can be in a bus and that we can play
for a dedicated fan base until I'm old. But also
I want to start writing. I think that's like a
really important part of my future. I don't want to
I want to tour when I put out a record,

(01:54:48):
but I don't want to be constantly hustling. I'd love
to explore writing more and I would love to write
a memoir one day and just open up those roads
for myself. For me success. I don't have any illusions
about becoming this huge commercial success. I don't really like

(01:55:10):
I would. What I want is to feel like I'm
I have the tools and the support to make my
art and that I'm a working musician. That isn't Also
like just sometimes I think tour is like constant punishment
at this level, and I want it to be a
little less punishing.

Speaker 1 (01:55:31):
You know, Okay, the goal is direct, but let's snap
our fingers. You're in a bus, You're playing to two
thousand people a night. You can tour pretty much as
much as you want to. Let's say you we hit
that hurdle and you can do that to the end
of time. Yeah, you think that's going to be happy

(01:55:54):
enough for you? Are you going to say, well, I'm
here now, I'd like to get to the next level.

Speaker 2 (01:56:00):
No, no, if you I mean you talk to musicians
all the time. Sometimes the most the people that are
struggling the most are above that level. And like, I
see that a lot, and I don't like. Fame doesn't
look great to me. Fame looks terrible. What looks great
to me is like se level fame. You know, like

(01:56:22):
your situation.

Speaker 1 (01:56:23):
Your situation is not the average beer. Okay, you made
records independently, you put them out on independent records. You're
on the major label. Now. Most people never make it
to the major label unless they're pop or hip hop. Yeah,
and a lot of them. The major label came early
yeah okay, and then it went behind. So there's a

(01:56:47):
level of persistence and belief that the average person doesn't have,
never mind that almost everybody would have given up along
the way. Yeah, so it's hard. Two things. I've never
met an artist who didn't want to have more people
exposed to their art. And of course, being an artist,

(01:57:10):
your stuff is out there. You don't really know who's listening,
You don't really know how much acceptance is there. But yes,
you're moving forward. You're moving forward, You're climbing the ladder.
You know, are you going to sit here and say no,
I don't want to play Madison Square Garden or say
that'd be pretty good?

Speaker 2 (01:57:29):
Yeah, that'd be pretty good.

Speaker 1 (01:57:32):
Right, Okay? And in terms of musicians, you know, as
one gains success both critically and commercially, opportunities arise. You're
on the road with the bright eyes. But now have
there been other opportunities of meeting heroes, whether it's just
being in the environment or working with them.

Speaker 2 (01:57:56):
You know, it's been mostly literary heroes, which I've find
really interesting. I haven't really connected with that many musicians
who are my heroes, but like I've met recently some
poets and some writers. Honey f Abduah KiB Me and

(01:58:18):
him did a talk when I was in New York,
and I met this poet Ocean w Wang and of
course Eileen Miles, who I talk about on this record.
That to me is where I really feel like I
am living my dream. When I'm meeting like these types

(01:58:39):
of artists of different mediums, it kind of frees me
of like the bullshit of music. Sometimes with other musicians,
I feel so like the hierarchies are so a part
of the conversation, and there's a lot of sizing up,
and there's a lot of like you're at this level.

(01:59:00):
I'm at this level. So I really enjoy being around
writers because I feel like all of that goes away.
I don't have to worry about that stuff, which is
another reason why I came to Chicago, because I felt
like musicians here are not really playing that game, you know,
a similar thing with New Orleans. So I haven't really

(01:59:20):
met a lot of my musical heroes.

Speaker 1 (01:59:23):
In terms of these poets and other writers you've met,
Has this just been by accident? Have you reached out
to them? Have they reached out to you?

Speaker 2 (01:59:32):
Well, with Honi, if it was you know, a set,
it was like an event. So my publicist Greg reached
out to him and he was he wanted to do it.
So I was excited, and then with these other poets,
it was like, I, well, one person reached out to me.
But then like by chance, I happened to actually meet

(01:59:55):
Eileen Miles, who's a poet that I'm completely obsessed with.
So it's been a mixture.

Speaker 1 (02:00:02):
Okay, a couple of times during our conversation you mentioned
political things. Yeah, the nature of being a touring musician
is you're in all of these communities that a lot
of people were writing at infinite and really have no
idea what's going on, what is going on in the country.

Speaker 2 (02:00:21):
Jesus, I've been trying to check out. Honestly, I like
I've after life on Earth, I you know, especially living
in New Orleans and with watching the Insurrection live on TV,
I definitely felt like I don't want to be the
warrior in this fucking crazy war. Like I felt a

(02:00:46):
very real this is not it's not safe, and it's
not good for me to be out trying to convince
people of something or rally people in the same way
that I was during Navigator. I felt much more like
I have to take care of my my spiritual health,

(02:01:09):
my physical health, you know. So and also more and
more I don't understand what's going on with our country
because I don't think I'm as online as a lot
of the the like, which is the method of like
what's drawing up the chaos and the insanity. The America

(02:01:34):
that I see when I'm touring is the people that
are not hiding behind their computer, you know. So I'm
just seeing this different these different people, like I'm seeing
the person side of them. And it's also felt personally

(02:01:56):
in my travels. It's felt a lot less tense than
it was when we were touring under Trump. That was
it just felt like that was the first time I
really experienced like, oh, you walk into a gas station,
It's like we should get the fuck out at this
gas station, you know. And that's after I had toured
with like trans people looking crazy all over the Southeast

(02:02:19):
before he before he was elected, you know, and I'd
never felt the way I did like when he was president.
So it's feeling it's definitely been feeling less tense, less
like at war. But also there's just this feeling of like,
whatever is brewing, I have no idea what's going to

(02:02:41):
happen with this election, and I'm trying not to consistently
check my phone every hour for like a new poll.
I told myself I wouldn't.

Speaker 1 (02:02:51):
And you know, there's some musicians who only listen to
their own music, others who are really students of the
game check everything out. Where are you on that continuum?

Speaker 2 (02:03:03):
I love to check everything out. I'm definitely a music lover,
and I'm really excited about new music. I I feel
like there was a period where I really didn't relate,
and that was when I was putting out like Lookout Mama.
You know, I related to this scene in the Southeast,

(02:03:23):
but that was really it. But now there's just like
so many very popular artists in like indie world that
I love and I'm really inspired by.

Speaker 1 (02:03:36):
Well, since you say that, give me two.

Speaker 2 (02:03:39):
Adrian Linker, of course, I think is just like one
of the best songwriters that's ever lived. Sometimes listening to
her music just like makes me sad because I'm like,
how did you write that song? But I also love
that feeling. I love feeling like damn, how the fuck

(02:04:00):
did you write that? So that's a really great example.
And also I've been a huge fan of Ezra Furman
for a long time. She put out a record called
Transandelic Exodus right when I put out Navigator, and that
was someone that I thought, Wow, we are on the

(02:04:21):
same page, We're the same type of artist. I'd really
like to collaborate with her someday. And I just think
that record, trans Angelic Exodus is like one of the
best albums in like the past decade for sure. It
feels like it feels very similar to like Hedwig, also

(02:04:42):
to like Ziggy start Us. I don't know, it just
feels like this epic tale, you know.

Speaker 1 (02:04:47):
Okay, Linda, I think we've come to the end of
the feeling we've known. It's been great talking to you.
Thank you so much for being open and honest. It's
been a pleasure.

Speaker 2 (02:04:56):
Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Speaker 1 (02:05:00):
Next time, this is Bob left Sex

Speaker 2 (02:05:24):
Sh