February 8, 2026 • 45 mins
Money isn’t just math. It’s memory, identity, fear, hope, and survival. Shannah Game, certified financial planner and author of Unraveling Your Relationship with Money, shares why so many of us feel anxious, ashamed, or stuck around money... regardless of how much we make.
We talk about financial trauma (the obvious kind and the subtle kind), why “being good with money” is a myth, how shame keeps us frozen, and why women in particular carry so much silent stress around finances. Shanna shares her own story of losing everything after divorce, the patterns she sees again and again in high-performing women, and simple ways to start rebuilding trust with money without perfection or punishment.
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📲 Follow @shannahgame on Instagram.
📖 Buy her book Unraveling Your Relationship with Money.
📲 Follow @takethispersonally on Instagram.
📲 Follow @webgirlmorgan on Instagram.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
Thank you personally, Fuelsman. It's some of the love and
all things relationships, and that's what we're going to get
into all month. But for today, we're talking about a
relationship that many people may not even realize they have
a relationship with money. I'm bringing on a woman this
week to share why money isn't just math but emotional wiring.
(00:33):
She's going to help us unpack our money shames so
we can all move forward to have a better relationship
with money. This week, I'm joined by Shauna Game. I'm
so excited to talk to her all about money stuff.
She is the author of Unraveling Your Relationship with Money,
and we are going to do some unraveling today. That's
(00:55):
what's about to happen. Welcome Shauna. Thanks so much for
having me de scited to talk to you about all
the things. But before we get into that, I love
to hear the background and why this topic is so
important to you. I want to hear a little bit
of your story and the genesis of all of this
before we really dive into the good details of everything.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
My first sort of foray into business actually was when
I was in college, and at the time I started
what was the first national Student Film Festival, and I
ran that for five years and ended up actually selling
it to a Hollywood producer. Crazy story, but that was
really like my boots on the ground rogue BA style
learning about money, because I had to learn about everything
(01:37):
budgeting and pr and guests and just all sorts of things.
And it wasn't until after that I went and got
an MBA and my dad had been in the financial
industry his whole career and he had a small firm
and he was like, I'm bored, Do you want to
come work with me? I'm like, yeah, sure, why not?
And it was interesting because at that time he was
(01:59):
working with people who had a lot of money. This
was in Los Angeles, people with multimillion dollar estates, and
I was working with my MBA corehorts who knew nothing
about personal finance. And I started to see the same
things emerged that regardless of how much money somebody had,
they all got stuck in the same patterns, in the
(02:19):
same belief systems and the same sort of mindsets around money.
And that was really my first awakening that hey, there's
more to this than just reading a book, right and
learning how to do a budget and learning how to
save and all those sorts of things. But it really
wasn't until I went through a divorce in my very
early thirties where I lost everything. I lost basically had
(02:42):
to walk away from all my possessions and to pay
my ex husband, and I saw my money that I realized, like, WHOA, Okay,
this relationship with money is a thing, and I better
start practicing what I'm trying to teach clients, because I
was not, and I was anxious around money. And that
(03:03):
was really where sort of the genesis of all of
this came together. And I'm a certified financial planner, a
trauma of money expert. But where I love to play
is with women, and particularly women in what I call
kind of our midlife. Right, so we've had enough things
happen to us, and we are anxious about money. We're
nervous about money. But on the outside, we're like high
(03:26):
performing women, right, Like we're doing things and we're in
our career and we've got families, and nobody would think
that inside we're like these nervous, anxious people around money.
And so I like to really help decode this for
women and show them that you're not bad with money. Right,
you just haven't learned the skill set around unraveling your
(03:47):
relationship with money and coming to a place where you
know your nervous system can relax and feel safe around money.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
Okay, so let's start there, because you talk about the
relationship with money, and so many people I've watched a
lot of your videos and their relationship with money as
the first it comes to debt or what their net
worth is, or how have I saved for retirement. There's
just so much associated with money. But you're the first
person I've really come across where it's like this relationship
(04:15):
with money. So let's start there. Tell me what that
looks like for you when you're working with people and
you're seeing relationships with money.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
Morgan, it's just if we're in a relationship with anyone else,
Like I just read that you got engaged right over
the congratulations, thank you. So it's the same thing as
if you're in relationship with a partner, right, Like you've
got to give some sort of teal see to the relationship.
There's a give and take, there's compromise, there's an effort
(04:45):
that you have to put into like making a relationship,
and certainly when you're talking about marriage, that's a whole
other battle of wax. It's the same thing around money,
because I say that money is the longest relationship we're
ever going to have in our lives, right, It follo
from day one all the way until at the very end.
And so most of us are in some sort of negative, shameful,
(05:11):
guilt ridden relationship around money, like we should do these things,
but we do the opposite. Or we go spend money
and have drinks to their friends and then we feel
really guilty. Or we read articles right or social media
about people and we're like, oh, I should have a
seven figure business now and I don't. And it's constantly
around us. And I think the really important thing is
(05:33):
to first ask yourself, like how do I feel about money?
And whatever? Your answer to that question is, I need
to dig a little deeper. Why is that? If I'm
anxious around money? Why is that? Where does that come from?
Did I witness that in childhood? Parents or ever raised me.
Was I in a maybe a relationship where there was
some sort of financial abuse, or did I struggle when
(05:55):
I came out of college? Where does this anxiety come from?
And that's the police we start at to redevelop and
sort of rewire this relationship around money.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
Okay, and I'm assuming too, based on what you're saying,
this also relates to their financial trauma that a lot
of people experience. So they're depending on the things that
they have experienced through their life and what's gone on.
There could be this more traumatizing side of that where
it's not just anxiety and it's not just stressed. It
might be a little bit even further deeper than that.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
Yeah, I use like trauma's kind of a big word, right.
We hear the word trauma a lot, and I really
just want, if you're listening, you to think about it
as any place that just feels like a little icky
around money, and it could be something big, like maybe
you grew up in poverty, maybe there was lack For instance,
(06:48):
my husband grew up in a family where they were
always having to move because they were always delinquent on
home payments because his stepdad would lose jobs and he
would come up from school and they'd have to like
move to a new house, the electricity would be off,
or whatever it might be that created like this deep
sense of trauma and just nervous always. We can have
(07:11):
a bill come in and he just you know, immediately
you can see him go to an anxiety response around that,
and it's just because it's so wired in him right
from being so young. So you can have something like that.
But trauma could also show up in situations like maybe
you forgot to pay a bill and maybe that bill
(07:32):
went to collections, and then maybe it lowered your credit score,
and so every time you like log down to your
bank app, you're expecting to see something terrible happen, and
you're just like your body and your nervous system is
just stuck kind of in that moment and it just
doesn't know how to figure its way out. So trauma
(07:55):
can be something big, but it also could be these
little nuanced moments that don't necessarily have to be negative,
but they just tell your body like whoa, Okay, we've
either got a freeze or we got to flee or
we gotta fights. Right, we have to have some sort
of response that's happening.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
And I would imagine too, it also goes on the
flip side of this too, where if you're so stingy
with money where you save consistently, you don't utilize your
money for we love to say on social media your
free will to do things where you'd like to go
out and explore the world and be adventurous or go
to dinner with your friends, and you're so stingy. I
would imagine that's also a side to this, and not
(08:34):
just that really hardcore side.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
Yeah, I'm really glad you brought that up, because that's
absolutely the truth. Like, we can see it on both sides.
Sometimes people are stuck in and I see this a
lot with women too. We're stuck in being like older
conservative because we've got the messaging around money that we
have to be quote unquote good girls, and we're just
still not sure what that means. Are we supposed to spend?
(08:58):
Are we supposed to save? Are we supposed to never
do something? Are we supposed to be big in our careers?
Are we supposed to be small in our careers? Like,
it's just your brain is just on overload, and this
is all of us, right, you're laughing, but I'm I'm
sure you probably like, oh.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
Yeah, it's just honestly, anything with being a woman is
so complex, and this just adds to another list of
things where I'm like, yeah, that tracks okay, I just
pushed it aside and probably a lot of my messaging.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
Yeah, for sure, there isn't necessarily like when we talk
about relationship with money, we talk about financial trumba. There
isn't a right or wrong side to be on. And
that's something I really want people to understand, because I
feel like there's this falsity out there that there is
like a perfect way to do money, and there are
these certain like hierarchies that you need to be at
(09:49):
certain ages, and if you're not at that hierarchy, then
you know you're not doing something right and you're a
bad person. And so that really ends up breeding even
and war, shame and guilt into just an already complex
environment around money. And so I really want to just
break down that stereotypes. There isn't anything perfect. There isn't
(10:13):
a necessarily always a right choice. You could do this
or you could do that, but it depends on what
do you ultimately want to do in your life. So
that's I think what makes it really tricky, and it
makes it hard to just listen to a money podcast
episode or just read a book and be like, oh,
I know instantly what I should do. It's just not
that easy and I so.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
Want to keep going down this rabbit hole. But something
in what you just said really taught me something of
what I've been seeing a lot on social media. Being
in comment sections is one of my least favorite and
favorite things. I learn a lot about people. I see
a lot of main people take what you will. But
something that I've really noticed about a lot of people,
especially on financial posts, is you're just seeing a lot
(10:55):
of there's lost hope in the belief that they can
have things that their parents had, that they can have
a house when the finances now look so differently, And
there's this conversation about this start comparison about what people
today are experiencing versus what people twenty thirty, fifty years
ago experience when it came to affording things. And I'm
(11:17):
curious your take on this because I feel like this
is something that would be so in your wheelhouse and
I'm sad reading a lot of it online and just
vast differences that people are experiencing.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
I think that no matter what generation we're dealing with,
they're gonna be these huge differences. If we look at
our parents and how they grew up, they did not
have access to social media, like we have. They were
not online, they were not running podcasts, like, things were
just very different. If we look back to our grandparents
(11:50):
and my great grandparents generation, specifically women, they did not
have access to credit they didn't have access to bank accounts,
they didn't have access to credit cards, right, and so
there's always going to be something different in each generation.
And I think it's really easy to highlight the things
that feel out of our control, right, Like we can't
(12:12):
control what the stock market's doing, we can't control what
the interest rates are, we can't control what home prices are, Like,
there are a lot of things that are just absolutely
out of our control. But it's really easy to highlight
those because they make really good headlines. And we're taught
via social media and now with news that if we
can't capture your attention in the first three seconds, you're
(12:33):
not going to pay attention. And so we go with
these big, splashy, big headlines, especially around money, and that
makes you feel probably usually even worse about yourself that
you're not in that situation. But I want you to
focus on what you can control, the things that you
can do, and part of that starts with this relationship
(12:53):
with money, with thinking about how do I want to
spend and save my money and what do I actually
want to spend and save my moneys? And so I
think when we can bring the focus more internal, we
can feel a greater sense of control and even though
there are so many things that are up against us,
it doesn't mean we still can't move towards those or
(13:15):
make those happen. If that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
It absolutely does, and I love that because again, this
is just a really hot topic on social media, but
not even just that people are posting about, but you
see it on those posts where it goes, if you
have this amount of money, you can afford this house,
and you can do this in five years and save
the rabbit holes of especially AI and chat GBT or
helping people create this content, right, But really in the
(13:40):
comment section is where the humanity is happening, and people
are discussing, Okay, I can't afford this, and there's just
feels like this lost hope. And I love the idea
of talking about relationship with money because I do want
to give people hope. I want them to have control
of their life back in a sense of what they're
seeing online may not actually be their reality, even if
it is broken down in a certain way and a
(14:02):
certain chart to show some similar thing. And so, speaking
on that relationship of money, what can somebody do? You
mention those questions to ask themselves, But what can somebody
really do to start working on that relationship with money?
Where does that all begin?
Speaker 2 (14:19):
There's an exercise that sounds really simple that I love
to suggest to people, but I promise you it once
you do it, there's more complexity to it than it sounds.
But I want you to get out a blank sheet
of paper. Don't do this on your computer. You actually
need to like handwrite this out.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
Oh I love a handwriting activity.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
Handwriting. We're going back to handwriting. Set your phone timer
for fifteen minutes, and I want you to just get out.
I want you to just write with like reckless, abandon
everything that you wish you would have done around money,
that feels unfair, that you're upset about, Like everything you
feel like is a mistake. I just want you to
(14:59):
vomit it out on this sheet of paper. When the
timer's up, step away, just walk away. Come back twenty
four hours later. Quick read over. You're going to notice
different patterns that start to emerge when you've removed yourself
a little bit from this. But the last part of
this exercise is we've got to get rid of it.
We've got to shred it, burn it, tear it up,
(15:20):
something whatever feels like the right mechanism for you. There
is science behind obviously writing things down on paper, getting
them out of our heads, right, That helps get it
out of our nervous system. And then there's science behind
getting rid of something. And it doesn't immediately take this
stuff away from you, but it starts to tell your
(15:41):
body and your nervous system. Hey, okay, maybe we don't
like what's happened to us in the past, but there
is a way we can recreate something moving forward. So
then I need you to think about what is it
I actually really want and what is actually enough. So
we spend so much time in what we think other
(16:02):
people's version of enough is that this is where like
comparison starts to come up, and a lot of guilt
around money. But I want you to think about what
is enough for me? How much money do I need,
what kind of career do I want, where do I
want to live, what do I like? Really think about that, right,
because once we can create what enough looks like for you.
And my guess is there's already some pieces of that
(16:25):
you're living today, you just might not be recognizing it.
But once we have that sketch, then it's okay, Now,
how do we get our money to actually take us
in that direction? And so we want to start bringing
this back internally but in a healthy way, so that
we can start just baby stepping our way towards what
(16:46):
that vision of enoughness is.
Speaker 1 (16:49):
Oh enoughness? Yeah, And that's tough, right, because we've been
taught growing up, and I'll speak from my personal experience,
you get taught certain things growing up. Or you need
to make sure you're saving by this point, make sure
you have this prepared. You need to have a career
that sustains you. You need to have financial freedom, you
need to invest, you need to I can tell you
the messaging that I've just taken in from every corner
(17:12):
of the world on money, and it's so interesting to
reframe that to think what actually is enough for me?
Because I've been listening to everybody else this whole time.
Speaker 2 (17:26):
Yes, and you're not alone. That's the beauty. That's the beauty.
And this is a thing that if I could go
out and just create this movement of especially women. If
we could just talk about all the things that we
really struggle with around money, we would see that we
are so much alike. It's so funny because every time
(17:48):
I work with a woman or I have a group
cohort program and I have twenty women at a time,
they say the exact same things around money. It's just
like clockwork. And so it's really interesting because like, regardless
of how much money we make, regardless of our demographic,
regardless of our backgrounds and our ethnicities, we tend to
(18:10):
fall in the same sort of patterns and mistakes and
beliefs around money. We just don't talk about it, so
it feels like super isolating and you feel like I
must be the only one who has not done this
or who has done this.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
And I'd love to if you feel like you can,
I'd love to hear some of those patterns or behaviors
that we're all similar, because sometimes we have to have
it spelled out to really think, oh, that is me,
because they could be listening right now, whoever it is,
and be like, that's not me. I haven't done that.
But then you start to hear the language and you're like,
oh crap, that is me. I am in that group.
(18:51):
So some of those patterns, behaviors, things that you see
a lot of people alike having these same thoughts and
feelings on if you're able to share, would be awesome.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
For sure, and they're I'm going to just throw them
out and we can dissect whichever ones you want to.
But certainly the first one is always around this enough thing. Right,
So it's always some form of I don't have enough,
I will never have enough, there isn't enough, and it's regardless. Again,
I worked with someone a couple weeks ago who made
(19:21):
over seven figures a year, and the first thing out
of her mouth was, my biggest fear is there's not enough.
And so there's just this feeling I think of just
constant lack, and it's just perpetuated by social media and
society and all of this. Right, So this idea of
(19:42):
I'm behind, I'm just chronically behind. I'm never going to
be able to catch up. Another one is that your money,
and this kind of goes with career, that it should
be a solid upward line that if there are any blips,
if I get laid off or a client fires me,
or whatever it might be in your line of work.
(20:03):
That doesn't happen to other people. And I'm going to
tell you other people might not admit it, but it
happens all the time, all the time. It is never
an upward line, and anyone who tells you it is
is just lying through their teeth, right. It's their twists
and turns. And people have to do things like people
(20:24):
have to pull money out of their retirement plans, people
have to ask parents for loans, people have to turn
to credit cards. There is just stuff that happens. And
so that makes us feel very shameful when we're up
against those types of decisions because we feel like I'm
filling the blank age. I should not need to ask
(20:45):
my parents for help, or I should not have to
put this on a credit card, or I should not
be in debt, or I should not have to pull
money out of my retirement plan. And so that feels
very lonely, right, and it goes back to this idea
of I'm not good with money, I can't be trusted
with money. Look at me, I just did this. A
lot of women and a lot of people have this
(21:06):
scenario where you get out of debt and then you
get back in debt, and then you might get out
of debt, then you might get back in debt, and
you feel so terrible when you're in the place of debt.
And so what we also tend to do is associate
whatever numbers in our bank account with our identity. That
(21:27):
if I have X amount of dollars, ooh, I feel
a certain way about myself. But if I get a raise, ooh,
I feel a different way. And oh then I lost
my job. Oh now I'm feeling And so we tie
these two things together that really need to be separated,
otherwise we're just constantly going to be drug around by
this thing called money.
Speaker 1 (21:47):
Love to know too, because I'm hearing you share all
of these and what is the balance? Right? We talk
about what is enough? But then it's okay, there is
a level of I do need to save and I don't.
I don't want to be in debt, and I also
would like to live my life. Where is this middle ground?
Where do we find that? How do we find that?
Speaker 2 (22:06):
I think it comes from really thinking out the choices
that we're making and really having some ownership, which kind
of sucks a lot at the time. Over it, I
will say I struggle with this myself, I don't really
want to do that, or oh, I really want to
go out and spend the money. And so I like
to teach like a pause. So you're up against a
(22:29):
spending decision, right, just built in half a second pause
where you can ask yourself, Okay, this is really what
I want to do. If the answer is yeah, I
really want to do it, Okay, am I gonna be
okay with it tomorrow? I don't know, build yourself in
this little questioning model. Now A lot of times the
answer can be yes, right, because this is not we're
(22:50):
not going for absolute perfection here. We're going for seventy
percent of the time. Maybe I pause and decide, Okay,
I'm gonna you know what, I'm gonna wait till tomorrow,
and if I still want to buy the thing tomorrow,
then I'll go ahead and do it right. And we
know usually tomorrow comes and we've already decided we don't
need the thing.
Speaker 1 (23:07):
Right.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
So I think you need to create a system for
yourself where you build in some of these tiny little
pauses where you can think through your spending and saving
decisions in a way that feels a little bit more
grounded and a little less like, especially around spending right,
a little less I need a dopamine hit. Can I
(23:29):
get my dopamine hit somewhere else? Like maybe I should
just go have a piece of chocolate or go for
a walk or something. And then sometimes it's no, I
need the dopamine hit. I'm just gonna go buy the thing.
But bringing this sense of intention so instead of feeling
like you're out of control with it, especially if you
have debt, right and you want to pay off the debt,
(23:50):
it's bring it back into your body, bring it back
into your nervous system and saying, okay, let me try
to be a little bit more intentional with the decisions
I make, and that then is going to help me
be more intentional with how I approach paying off this debt.
Speaker 1 (24:08):
That's really good and it's so funny you mentioned that
because I really think about this conversation that I have too,
because you mentioned the side of women and how we think,
and my fiance has this more different mindset whereas we
can always make more money, and I'm like, but I
don't think we can. I'm not going to ever think
that way. Money's not it doesn't grow on trees. I
(24:28):
learned that my whole life growing up. It doesn't come
out of nowhere. And it's not that he's not even
reckless with money. It's just more that he is really
much more intentional about also enjoying our life and being
happy while also doing the things that we need to
do and striking that balance that you're talking about of
(24:49):
intention and something that I've found that really works, especially
when it comes to purchases, because I'm also trying to
not just buy a bunch of stuff. I don't like
to have a lot of stuff. And I always sit
there for a few days if it's a big purchase
that I'm about to make, me big purchase over one
hundred dollars, right, like an a lot of things that
cost almost one hundred dollars by themselves these days, but
(25:10):
all over one hundred dollars, And I look at it
and I say, do I love this? Is it going
to just make me the happiest person in the world
to own whatever I'm about to buy? And if I
can't confidently say yes, I love this, this is everything
that I need, I'm going to think about it. If
I leave and I don't buy it, then I won't
get it. If I do not feel so much overlapping
(25:32):
joy over this one thing, I won't get it. And
that's what you're talking about with that pause.
Speaker 2 (25:36):
Absolutely, it's such a beautiful example. And you bring up
your your fiance, and this is where money gets really
tricky with relationships, because we tend to choose the person
who has a different money personality than we have, and
also that person has grown up with their own belief
(25:58):
systems around money and their own experiences, and so you
put that on top of us individually having really no
idea what our own relationship is around money, and you're
trying to bridge two people coming together, and it usually
is this is where arguments come up because you don't
(26:19):
even necessarily understand why you might be anxious or why
you might get in arguments about money, and your partner
doesn't necessarily know either, right, and so you're just like
to force this classing into each other and it's really learning, Okay,
what are your strengths, what are my strengths? And how
do we move just half an inch inward towards each
(26:43):
other knowing that your strengths are going to continue to
be yours and mine are going to continue to be mine.
And we're going to obviously have differences around this thing,
but let's see if we can do it in a
way that doesn't ignite one or both of our sort
of nervous system reactions all the time.
Speaker 1 (27:00):
Yes, And that's why I'm such a listen. I'm a
big person who I was single for a significant amount
of time and dating and going through the whole thing,
and I firmly believe in bringing up financial conversations very
early on in relationships. If this is somebody that you're
considering dating, you better at least understand who they are
with money and what they think about money, and what
(27:23):
do they like to save, do they not like to save?
Just what is their whole as we talk about it,
relationship with money. And I'm such a huge believer in
that I acted out in that believe. I'm pretty sure
my fiance we were like three or four days and
I'm like, so let's talk about this really quick. What
am I getting into here? What's so funny is he
already knew me pretty well at that point to be like,
(27:43):
I anticipated you to have these very bold conversations early on,
and I really am so happy that I did that,
and I just I wish more people would have those
conversations very early. I think it would save people a
lot of this grief and these stress that they enter into.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
And I think too, if you can come at it
with a sense of curiosity and not blame, that is
the best way in opening these conversations. So really trying
to understand, ask questions, Ask open ended questions, and let
the person respond and don't say something like I wouldn't
do it that way. Learn about how they interact with money,
(28:24):
learn about what makes them nervous or anxious around money,
learn about their childhood around money, like all of this
is really important information. But if we come at the
place where we start judging and passing blame, which most
of us do, then we get into the real sort
of danger area around this. So I say, just start
(28:46):
with questions and just if you have to sow your
mouth shut, just go the h okay, that's interesting, right,
and just keep it as information that going forward without
replying something negative.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
Absolutely, and that's how we should approach most conversations, right.
If you're having a hard conversation, it should be you're
listening with the intent to listen, not to respond, and
I know we're all guilty of that. It's hard not
to because we want to. I don't know if you're
like me, but I want to help them, Like I
can help with that. I know what we can do,
and I very much didn't. And I was proud of
(29:22):
myself in this situation. I was like, Okay, yeah, and
I'm just thinking my mind, I can work with that.
This is stuff that like, we clearly are similar in
a lot of ways, but it also reminds me of
I see a lot of people talk about how they
either grow up with SODA's and apps family, or they
grew up with a water only family. This is also
a topic of conversation.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
That's a great way to open up the conversation.
Speaker 1 (29:48):
Yeah, were you getting only waters or did you also
experience a lot of joy around the dinner table when
you go on to eat with every food item you
could possibly have. It's a very easy way to start
having that conversation. I actually love it. It's funny to
see the differences of people through that.
Speaker 2 (30:04):
That is great. I love that and any questions like that, right,
if we can just be if we can laugh about it,
if we can have fun with it, especially when you're
dating somebody that just takes the person off from immediately
like feeling defensive, maybe about having to justify something. And
if the other person is in debt or has student
(30:25):
loan debt or whatever it might be, or business failed
or something like that, they already feel bad enough. I
guarantee you about it. So yeah, I love that. Come
with fun, come with compassion, and it will change how
you interact.
Speaker 1 (30:42):
We talk about money, but money's another one of those
like really which is so interesting to me. Another thing,
especially as women, we've been told not to talk about money.
Don't talk about your finances, don't talk about what this is,
don't talk about how much you make. Don't you dare
find out what anybody else makes. There's this very kind
of hard conversation about not talking about money, and I
(31:05):
have liked to be a little devil on the shoulder
with that one and not done that. I very much
like to talk about money. So I'm curious your thoughts
on this because I think it's important. That's why we're
having this whole episode.
Speaker 2 (31:18):
I think it's really important. Like I wish when we
went out with our girlfriends we would talk about not
just like getting the raises and scoring the big deals,
but also talk about oof, I spent way too much
last month, or oh I'm paying off that last bit
of debt, or oh whatever it might be like, talk
about the things that feel shameful, maybe the things that
(31:41):
we never say out loud, but open them up as
conversations because I think that it helps the other person
as much as I know that it helps you. And
we can bring this this language around talking about money,
maybe we can change the dynamic, and we can change
how we ternalize it, just from the act of being
(32:02):
able to talk about these topics that feel very taboo,
especially around money.
Speaker 1 (32:08):
Very much so. And again, I don't want it to
be taboo anymore. If you're listening to this, I hope
you start having these conversations with girlfriends at dinner or
you're just talking about it a little bit more here
and there, maybe not to like the cashier at Kroger, but.
Speaker 2 (32:20):
You know, that could be like a really good conversation.
You never know, Dang, I.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
Can't believe my hunter for me that could open up.
Grocers are intensive right now. So you also talk a
lot about how people feel shame around money, and that's
really not how it's supposed to be, but feeling that
way makes them feel stuck, and the stuckness is what
gets a lot of people caught when it comes to
finances and moving forward. We discussed that how to do
(32:46):
something about where you're feeling right now. But I'm so
curious about this stuck face that a lot of people
get in because cycles love to repeat themselves, and if
we can avoid that would be awesome for a lot
of people.
Speaker 2 (32:58):
I think she is the most prevalent emotion around money
that people feel like it's just built in almost We
live in a very scarcity driven society, so it's hard
to escape it. Even you turn on the TV and
watch the commercials, and if you watch it from like
(33:19):
a different lens, you'll notice how many times money has
talked about, and how many times it's talked about in
the context of you're not where you should be, or
you're behind, or just something like that. Right, You're just
constantly hearing these messages over and over again. And I
think what's interesting about shame is it could be something
tiny that maybe caused a sense of shame, or could
(33:40):
be something big, and so we all have a different
definition or a different experience I should say around shame,
but we all internalize it and it creates a stuckness
because when we're in a pattern of feeling shameful about
whatever it might be, it doesn't tell our nervous system.
(34:01):
It actually tells our nervous system you can't be trusted
around money. And when you feel like you can't be
trusted about around money, you're not going to make decisions
that are in your best interest, or usually you don't
make any decision at all because you just get in
this freeze place where it's if I just don't do anything,
maybe that will make me feel better, and so it
(34:24):
doesn't spoiler alert. And so this stuckness is really getting
to what is it? Why am I stuck?
Speaker 1 (34:32):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (34:33):
I keep using the debt example, but it's the most
prevalent example. Maybe it's I'm in some debt, whether I
have a student loan debt or whatever it might be,
and I feel stuck. I make some payments, I get ahead,
and then there's more interest and like I just can't
get ahead. So it's really thinking about, Okay, what does
it go back to this? What is in my control?
What is that in my control? Is there any way
(34:54):
I could find like an extra twenty bucks a month. Yeah, okay,
maybe I could do that. Okay, maybe that twenty extra
buck is like the springboard to start paying more of
that debt off. And then maybe that thinking about you
know what I could do that. Maybe then that tells
my nervous system, ooh there's other things I could do.
Oh I could do this and this, and oh oh
(35:16):
I can make this decision instead of that decision. And
maybe I have drinks at home and I only have
one drink out with my friends or whatever it might be,
and you start to see opportunities. So when you're in
the place of shame, you're just in a shutdown mode
and you just it's not that you don't have the skills,
it's not that you're not smart, it's not any of
(35:36):
those things. It's just your body is wired to keep
you in that place because we're still like that way back.
We're still like the people where we're trying to outrun
the tigers. Our bodies still feel that same way, and
so start thinking about what is a tiny little something
I can do, tiny little thing, tiny little step. If
(35:58):
we're in five thousand dollars a debt going to pay
it all off tomorrow, But could I pay off ten
dollars this month? Maybe that's a tiny step. And those
tiny steps are going to budge you out of that
place of stuckness, and it's also going to help tame
down that shame a little bit. It doesn't all go away,
but it's just going to start moving you forward. And
(36:20):
when you can start to see progress, your body, your brain,
everything starts to respond to that happening.
Speaker 1 (36:28):
And I love this so much because I do feel
debt is such a unfortunately important topic for so many people,
even though we don't talk about that often, just like
we don't talk about finances. A lot of people don't
talk about their debt and the things because it's associated
with shame, and nobody wants to admit that they're in
debt or that they have things. And there's so many
(36:48):
people that are dealing with this, and debt is that
like hot button of I feel like as soon as
you even say that word, it triggers people to something
in them, just me idiately, like shivers where they're just
I have to identify this, and I am curious your take.
I love the tools to be able to start paying
(37:09):
off that debt, but somebody who is in it and
they're trying to figure things out with their life, but
they also want to live because there is this also.
I know I always have this thought in my mind
where I really want to save money, but what if
I'm not alive tomorrow and I don't ever get to
spend it? And that thought creeps in my mind way
(37:29):
more often than it probably should. But I imagine a lot
of people who are experiencing debt also have that where they're, yes,
I want to pay it off, but what happens if
I'm not here tomorrow and I never did anything I
wanted to do? So how do you handle that subject
where it's, yes, you need to pay this off and
take care of it, but also you want to live
life a little bit. It is such a good.
Speaker 2 (37:51):
Question, and I will say, and I talk about this
in my book with extreme honesty. I am a money expert,
and I have been in and out of debt myself.
I have probably made every money mistake humanly possible. And
I feel like it's important for someone like me to
say that because I know all the things you should do.
(38:13):
I know all the tips the tricks, like I know
all of that, and yet I've still had these things happen,
and I've still battled with exactly what you're talking about myself. First,
just know this is a very normal human reaction. And
I think there's a couple of things to think about.
One is that you are on your own personal journey
(38:34):
and your own personal relationship with money, and you are
the one that gets to set the rules. So if
you're in debt, but you're like, you know what, I
really want to go on a vacation with my friends
or my partner, that's your decision to make, and you
can actually make that decision. You could make that decision, Yeah,
I need to go on the vacation, Like the vacation
is going to give me a mental health break. I'm
(38:57):
gonna have fun, it's gonna be memories, blah blah blah,
whatever it is. You don't have to justify that to yourself.
You just go on the vacation. Or you could decide
and I really want to focus on paying off the debt, right,
But only you get to decide what is right and
what is wrong. No one else gets to tell you
what that is. So that's the first thing I want
you to know. Even though all the textberoks, all the
(39:18):
experts will say, Nope, you have to stay home and
just pay off your debt. Right, You're human, like you said,
So sometimes you're gonna make the choice of I need
to live. This thing is really important for me, I
need to see the ocean, et cetera, et cetera. And
I want you to just go do it without shame.
If that is your choice, just pick it and go
and tell yourself, I'm making a choice. There's no shame
(39:40):
involved in this. But then also if we're looking at okay,
but I'm in debt, I really want to pay off debt,
we tend to limit ourselves around what we think we
can do. There is so much more you can do
than you think you can do. I tell everyone this,
I can find money in your bank account. I can
find money in absolutely anybody's bank account because I'm looking
(40:03):
for opportunities to find ways we could do something better.
And there are lots of things like I call my
cell phone carrier every six months and say, hey, am
I on the best plan? Is there a better plan?
And I would say probably eight out of ten times,
I end up saving like twenty or thirty bucks a
month because there's a better plan that comes out, or
shopping my car insurance or things like that that may
seem like a chore, but these are like little extra
(40:26):
buckets of money that I can find where I don't
have to earn more money, but then I can reposition
that towards debt or towards whatever I want it to
go towards. There are opportunities inside your bank account right now.
You just need to find them. And you can find
them when you start letting go of the shame and
just saying, let me see if there's like some interesting
(40:47):
things I can do here. But there are other options
to pay off debt. Right Maybe you're gonna have to
get a personal loan. Maybe you might have to get
a second job just to pay off that debt. We
get stuck in like our own. I don't want to
do that. I have a friend who lost their job,
and I'm like, you go Trader Joe's right now and
get like probably a really good paying job to bring
(41:08):
in some man. Oh, I don't know that. What does
that say about me? And I've got degrees, and I'm like,
what choice do you want to make? Like you have options,
you have things in your control So that's the second
part of this, right, is what do I want and
broadening the vision to go, oh, there are actually some
things I can do right, and it's actually maybe not
that hard. Like I can actually do a few things.
(41:30):
I love to bake cupcakes, and so I bake cupcakes,
and everybody hires me for like their parties and things.
It's an extra fifty bucks every time somebody buys a
dozen of cupcakes. I can take that money and I
can put it towards something else. So those are just
a couple of things. I wish there was like a
magic answer, but those are just a couple of things
(41:51):
to think about. But I really want you to know
like you have ultimate choice in what you decide. Yeah,
I want you to be human too, and I also
want you to pay off debt. And you don't have
to do the two things all at once, Like you
can pick and choose, but pick and choose without that
sense of shame.
Speaker 1 (42:07):
I know you said there's no magic answer, but I
really liked your answer. I thought it was great, and
I gave us the ability to have both because that
is the human experience right there. There is not a
single person in this world who doesn't want to not
pay off their debt, who doesn't want to save money,
who would also like to go on vacations, who would
also like to do the things that they allow them
(42:28):
to live their life. There's not a single person who
would not disagree with any of those things. And so
to really start to understand that relationship that we have
with life is what you're doing to help people truly
get a better way of living with their finances. And
I think that's so cool. So magic answer to me.
I know it's not the actual magic answer, and we
(42:49):
can't just like any boppityboo and debt is gone. That
would be great, but I loved your answer. I thought
it was awesome, So thank you. I do love to
end the podcast with a piece of advice or a
piece of motivation or inspiration or just something maybe we
didn't talk about where you it feels really heavy for
you that you were like, I need to share this information.
So it's where I just hand the platform over to
(43:10):
you and you're gonna take us on whatever journey you
want to end this thing.
Speaker 2 (43:15):
Wow, we have talked about so much when it comes
to money. I also give you just one extra little
something to do a little journal prompt for the journal
listeners out there. This is something I love to do.
I end every night with this. I write myself what
I call a Hey shawna letter, so whatever your name is,
(43:35):
a Morgan, whatever, and I literally just get out everything
around money that has been stored up during the day.
So sometimes it's good things, sometimes it's bad things. Sometimes
it's me cursing at the it. Sometimes it's me can't
decide what I'm doing about a certain option, but I
just get it out of my head and get it
(43:56):
down on paper. And I would say, find something we
talked about lots of different tools, but find something that
works for you, that feels like you can have some
sort of ease around money, because that's what I want
you to feel, not that it's always going to be easy,
but that you can sit in the messy and you
still have this sense of ease.
Speaker 1 (44:17):
Oh that's really good. And you loved us with something
to do. I love an activity. My journal has all
kinds of different scribbles in it. Now it'll have another
scribble in it of different things. So Shanna, thank you
so much for your expertise and being vulnerable and sharing
parts of your story. Too, and it was just really
awesome to have you on.
Speaker 2 (44:36):
Thanks so much.
Speaker 1 (44:37):
If you resonated with Shawna's story, you can connect with
her more on social media at Shauna Game or check
out her book, Unraveling Your Relationship with Money. More to
come in the next few weeks on all things love
and relationships. If there's anything you want me to address
under that umbrella, then dm me on Instagram at take
this personally. If this is where I leave you, I
hope you have a great week, Stay safe. Thanks for
(44:58):
being here with me, and I love you. Please tell
more people that you love them. That's what this month
is actually all about, reminding people that we care, we're there,
and hey, I love you.
Thank you personally, Fuelsman. It's some of the love and
all things relationships, and that's what we're going to get
into all month. But for today, we're talking about a
relationship that many people may not even realize they have
a relationship with money. I'm bringing on a woman this
week to share why money isn't just math but emotional wiring.
(00:33):
She's going to help us unpack our money shames so
we can all move forward to have a better relationship
with money. This week, I'm joined by Shauna Game. I'm
so excited to talk to her all about money stuff.
She is the author of Unraveling Your Relationship with Money,
and we are going to do some unraveling today. That's
(00:55):
what's about to happen. Welcome Shauna. Thanks so much for
having me de scited to talk to you about all
the things. But before we get into that, I love
to hear the background and why this topic is so
important to you. I want to hear a little bit
of your story and the genesis of all of this
before we really dive into the good details of everything.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
My first sort of foray into business actually was when
I was in college, and at the time I started
what was the first national Student Film Festival, and I
ran that for five years and ended up actually selling
it to a Hollywood producer. Crazy story, but that was
really like my boots on the ground rogue BA style
learning about money, because I had to learn about everything
(01:37):
budgeting and pr and guests and just all sorts of things.
And it wasn't until after that I went and got
an MBA and my dad had been in the financial
industry his whole career and he had a small firm
and he was like, I'm bored, Do you want to
come work with me? I'm like, yeah, sure, why not?
And it was interesting because at that time he was
(01:59):
working with people who had a lot of money. This
was in Los Angeles, people with multimillion dollar estates, and
I was working with my MBA corehorts who knew nothing
about personal finance. And I started to see the same
things emerged that regardless of how much money somebody had,
they all got stuck in the same patterns, in the
(02:19):
same belief systems and the same sort of mindsets around money.
And that was really my first awakening that hey, there's
more to this than just reading a book, right and
learning how to do a budget and learning how to
save and all those sorts of things. But it really
wasn't until I went through a divorce in my very
early thirties where I lost everything. I lost basically had
(02:42):
to walk away from all my possessions and to pay
my ex husband, and I saw my money that I realized, like, WHOA, Okay,
this relationship with money is a thing, and I better
start practicing what I'm trying to teach clients, because I
was not, and I was anxious around money. And that
(03:03):
was really where sort of the genesis of all of
this came together. And I'm a certified financial planner, a
trauma of money expert. But where I love to play
is with women, and particularly women in what I call
kind of our midlife. Right, so we've had enough things
happen to us, and we are anxious about money. We're
nervous about money. But on the outside, we're like high
(03:26):
performing women, right, Like we're doing things and we're in
our career and we've got families, and nobody would think
that inside we're like these nervous, anxious people around money.
And so I like to really help decode this for
women and show them that you're not bad with money. Right,
you just haven't learned the skill set around unraveling your
(03:47):
relationship with money and coming to a place where you
know your nervous system can relax and feel safe around money.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
Okay, so let's start there, because you talk about the
relationship with money, and so many people I've watched a
lot of your videos and their relationship with money as
the first it comes to debt or what their net
worth is, or how have I saved for retirement. There's
just so much associated with money. But you're the first
person I've really come across where it's like this relationship
(04:15):
with money. So let's start there. Tell me what that
looks like for you when you're working with people and
you're seeing relationships with money.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
Morgan, it's just if we're in a relationship with anyone else,
Like I just read that you got engaged right over
the congratulations, thank you. So it's the same thing as
if you're in relationship with a partner, right, Like you've
got to give some sort of teal see to the relationship.
There's a give and take, there's compromise, there's an effort
(04:45):
that you have to put into like making a relationship,
and certainly when you're talking about marriage, that's a whole
other battle of wax. It's the same thing around money,
because I say that money is the longest relationship we're
ever going to have in our lives, right, It follo
from day one all the way until at the very end.
And so most of us are in some sort of negative, shameful,
(05:11):
guilt ridden relationship around money, like we should do these things,
but we do the opposite. Or we go spend money
and have drinks to their friends and then we feel
really guilty. Or we read articles right or social media
about people and we're like, oh, I should have a
seven figure business now and I don't. And it's constantly
around us. And I think the really important thing is
(05:33):
to first ask yourself, like how do I feel about money?
And whatever? Your answer to that question is, I need
to dig a little deeper. Why is that? If I'm
anxious around money? Why is that? Where does that come from?
Did I witness that in childhood? Parents or ever raised me.
Was I in a maybe a relationship where there was
some sort of financial abuse, or did I struggle when
(05:55):
I came out of college? Where does this anxiety come from?
And that's the police we start at to redevelop and
sort of rewire this relationship around money.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
Okay, and I'm assuming too, based on what you're saying,
this also relates to their financial trauma that a lot
of people experience. So they're depending on the things that
they have experienced through their life and what's gone on.
There could be this more traumatizing side of that where
it's not just anxiety and it's not just stressed. It
might be a little bit even further deeper than that.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
Yeah, I use like trauma's kind of a big word, right.
We hear the word trauma a lot, and I really
just want, if you're listening, you to think about it
as any place that just feels like a little icky
around money, and it could be something big, like maybe
you grew up in poverty, maybe there was lack For instance,
(06:48):
my husband grew up in a family where they were
always having to move because they were always delinquent on
home payments because his stepdad would lose jobs and he
would come up from school and they'd have to like
move to a new house, the electricity would be off,
or whatever it might be that created like this deep
sense of trauma and just nervous always. We can have
(07:11):
a bill come in and he just you know, immediately
you can see him go to an anxiety response around that,
and it's just because it's so wired in him right
from being so young. So you can have something like that.
But trauma could also show up in situations like maybe
you forgot to pay a bill and maybe that bill
(07:32):
went to collections, and then maybe it lowered your credit score,
and so every time you like log down to your
bank app, you're expecting to see something terrible happen, and
you're just like your body and your nervous system is
just stuck kind of in that moment and it just
doesn't know how to figure its way out. So trauma
(07:55):
can be something big, but it also could be these
little nuanced moments that don't necessarily have to be negative,
but they just tell your body like whoa, Okay, we've
either got a freeze or we got to flee or
we gotta fights. Right, we have to have some sort
of response that's happening.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
And I would imagine too, it also goes on the
flip side of this too, where if you're so stingy
with money where you save consistently, you don't utilize your
money for we love to say on social media your
free will to do things where you'd like to go
out and explore the world and be adventurous or go
to dinner with your friends, and you're so stingy. I
would imagine that's also a side to this, and not
(08:34):
just that really hardcore side.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
Yeah, I'm really glad you brought that up, because that's
absolutely the truth. Like, we can see it on both sides.
Sometimes people are stuck in and I see this a
lot with women too. We're stuck in being like older
conservative because we've got the messaging around money that we
have to be quote unquote good girls, and we're just
still not sure what that means. Are we supposed to spend?
(08:58):
Are we supposed to save? Are we supposed to never
do something? Are we supposed to be big in our careers?
Are we supposed to be small in our careers? Like,
it's just your brain is just on overload, and this
is all of us, right, you're laughing, but I'm I'm
sure you probably like, oh.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
Yeah, it's just honestly, anything with being a woman is
so complex, and this just adds to another list of
things where I'm like, yeah, that tracks okay, I just
pushed it aside and probably a lot of my messaging.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
Yeah, for sure, there isn't necessarily like when we talk
about relationship with money, we talk about financial trumba. There
isn't a right or wrong side to be on. And
that's something I really want people to understand, because I
feel like there's this falsity out there that there is
like a perfect way to do money, and there are
these certain like hierarchies that you need to be at
(09:49):
certain ages, and if you're not at that hierarchy, then
you know you're not doing something right and you're a
bad person. And so that really ends up breeding even
and war, shame and guilt into just an already complex
environment around money. And so I really want to just
break down that stereotypes. There isn't anything perfect. There isn't
(10:13):
a necessarily always a right choice. You could do this
or you could do that, but it depends on what
do you ultimately want to do in your life. So
that's I think what makes it really tricky, and it
makes it hard to just listen to a money podcast
episode or just read a book and be like, oh,
I know instantly what I should do. It's just not
that easy and I so.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
Want to keep going down this rabbit hole. But something
in what you just said really taught me something of
what I've been seeing a lot on social media. Being
in comment sections is one of my least favorite and
favorite things. I learn a lot about people. I see
a lot of main people take what you will. But
something that I've really noticed about a lot of people,
especially on financial posts, is you're just seeing a lot
(10:55):
of there's lost hope in the belief that they can
have things that their parents had, that they can have
a house when the finances now look so differently, And
there's this conversation about this start comparison about what people
today are experiencing versus what people twenty thirty, fifty years
ago experience when it came to affording things. And I'm
(11:17):
curious your take on this because I feel like this
is something that would be so in your wheelhouse and
I'm sad reading a lot of it online and just
vast differences that people are experiencing.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
I think that no matter what generation we're dealing with,
they're gonna be these huge differences. If we look at
our parents and how they grew up, they did not
have access to social media, like we have. They were
not online, they were not running podcasts, like, things were
just very different. If we look back to our grandparents
(11:50):
and my great grandparents generation, specifically women, they did not
have access to credit they didn't have access to bank accounts,
they didn't have access to credit cards, right, and so
there's always going to be something different in each generation.
And I think it's really easy to highlight the things
that feel out of our control, right, Like we can't
(12:12):
control what the stock market's doing, we can't control what
the interest rates are, we can't control what home prices are, Like,
there are a lot of things that are just absolutely
out of our control. But it's really easy to highlight
those because they make really good headlines. And we're taught
via social media and now with news that if we
can't capture your attention in the first three seconds, you're
(12:33):
not going to pay attention. And so we go with
these big, splashy, big headlines, especially around money, and that
makes you feel probably usually even worse about yourself that
you're not in that situation. But I want you to
focus on what you can control, the things that you
can do, and part of that starts with this relationship
(12:53):
with money, with thinking about how do I want to
spend and save my money and what do I actually
want to spend and save my moneys? And so I
think when we can bring the focus more internal, we
can feel a greater sense of control and even though
there are so many things that are up against us,
it doesn't mean we still can't move towards those or
(13:15):
make those happen. If that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
It absolutely does, and I love that because again, this
is just a really hot topic on social media, but
not even just that people are posting about, but you
see it on those posts where it goes, if you
have this amount of money, you can afford this house,
and you can do this in five years and save
the rabbit holes of especially AI and chat GBT or
helping people create this content, right, But really in the
(13:40):
comment section is where the humanity is happening, and people
are discussing, Okay, I can't afford this, and there's just
feels like this lost hope. And I love the idea
of talking about relationship with money because I do want
to give people hope. I want them to have control
of their life back in a sense of what they're
seeing online may not actually be their reality, even if
it is broken down in a certain way and a
(14:02):
certain chart to show some similar thing. And so, speaking
on that relationship of money, what can somebody do? You
mention those questions to ask themselves, But what can somebody
really do to start working on that relationship with money?
Where does that all begin?
Speaker 2 (14:19):
There's an exercise that sounds really simple that I love
to suggest to people, but I promise you it once
you do it, there's more complexity to it than it sounds.
But I want you to get out a blank sheet
of paper. Don't do this on your computer. You actually
need to like handwrite this out.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
Oh I love a handwriting activity.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
Handwriting. We're going back to handwriting. Set your phone timer
for fifteen minutes, and I want you to just get out.
I want you to just write with like reckless, abandon
everything that you wish you would have done around money,
that feels unfair, that you're upset about, Like everything you
feel like is a mistake. I just want you to
(14:59):
vomit it out on this sheet of paper. When the
timer's up, step away, just walk away. Come back twenty
four hours later. Quick read over. You're going to notice
different patterns that start to emerge when you've removed yourself
a little bit from this. But the last part of
this exercise is we've got to get rid of it.
We've got to shred it, burn it, tear it up,
(15:20):
something whatever feels like the right mechanism for you. There
is science behind obviously writing things down on paper, getting
them out of our heads, right, That helps get it
out of our nervous system. And then there's science behind
getting rid of something. And it doesn't immediately take this
stuff away from you, but it starts to tell your
(15:41):
body and your nervous system. Hey, okay, maybe we don't
like what's happened to us in the past, but there
is a way we can recreate something moving forward. So
then I need you to think about what is it
I actually really want and what is actually enough. So
we spend so much time in what we think other
(16:02):
people's version of enough is that this is where like
comparison starts to come up, and a lot of guilt
around money. But I want you to think about what
is enough for me? How much money do I need,
what kind of career do I want, where do I
want to live, what do I like? Really think about that, right,
because once we can create what enough looks like for you.
And my guess is there's already some pieces of that
(16:25):
you're living today, you just might not be recognizing it.
But once we have that sketch, then it's okay, Now,
how do we get our money to actually take us
in that direction? And so we want to start bringing
this back internally but in a healthy way, so that
we can start just baby stepping our way towards what
(16:46):
that vision of enoughness is.
Speaker 1 (16:49):
Oh enoughness? Yeah, And that's tough, right, because we've been
taught growing up, and I'll speak from my personal experience,
you get taught certain things growing up. Or you need
to make sure you're saving by this point, make sure
you have this prepared. You need to have a career
that sustains you. You need to have financial freedom, you
need to invest, you need to I can tell you
the messaging that I've just taken in from every corner
(17:12):
of the world on money, and it's so interesting to
reframe that to think what actually is enough for me?
Because I've been listening to everybody else this whole time.
Speaker 2 (17:26):
Yes, and you're not alone. That's the beauty. That's the beauty.
And this is a thing that if I could go
out and just create this movement of especially women. If
we could just talk about all the things that we
really struggle with around money, we would see that we
are so much alike. It's so funny because every time
(17:48):
I work with a woman or I have a group
cohort program and I have twenty women at a time,
they say the exact same things around money. It's just
like clockwork. And so it's really interesting because like, regardless
of how much money we make, regardless of our demographic,
regardless of our backgrounds and our ethnicities, we tend to
(18:10):
fall in the same sort of patterns and mistakes and
beliefs around money. We just don't talk about it, so
it feels like super isolating and you feel like I
must be the only one who has not done this
or who has done this.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
And I'd love to if you feel like you can,
I'd love to hear some of those patterns or behaviors
that we're all similar, because sometimes we have to have
it spelled out to really think, oh, that is me,
because they could be listening right now, whoever it is,
and be like, that's not me. I haven't done that.
But then you start to hear the language and you're like,
oh crap, that is me. I am in that group.
(18:51):
So some of those patterns, behaviors, things that you see
a lot of people alike having these same thoughts and
feelings on if you're able to share, would be awesome.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
For sure, and they're I'm going to just throw them
out and we can dissect whichever ones you want to.
But certainly the first one is always around this enough thing. Right,
So it's always some form of I don't have enough,
I will never have enough, there isn't enough, and it's regardless. Again,
I worked with someone a couple weeks ago who made
(19:21):
over seven figures a year, and the first thing out
of her mouth was, my biggest fear is there's not enough.
And so there's just this feeling I think of just
constant lack, and it's just perpetuated by social media and
society and all of this. Right, So this idea of
(19:42):
I'm behind, I'm just chronically behind. I'm never going to
be able to catch up. Another one is that your money,
and this kind of goes with career, that it should
be a solid upward line that if there are any blips,
if I get laid off or a client fires me,
or whatever it might be in your line of work.
(20:03):
That doesn't happen to other people. And I'm going to
tell you other people might not admit it, but it
happens all the time, all the time. It is never
an upward line, and anyone who tells you it is
is just lying through their teeth, right. It's their twists
and turns. And people have to do things like people
(20:24):
have to pull money out of their retirement plans, people
have to ask parents for loans, people have to turn
to credit cards. There is just stuff that happens. And
so that makes us feel very shameful when we're up
against those types of decisions because we feel like I'm
filling the blank age. I should not need to ask
(20:45):
my parents for help, or I should not have to
put this on a credit card, or I should not
be in debt, or I should not have to pull
money out of my retirement plan. And so that feels
very lonely, right, and it goes back to this idea
of I'm not good with money, I can't be trusted
with money. Look at me, I just did this. A
lot of women and a lot of people have this
(21:06):
scenario where you get out of debt and then you
get back in debt, and then you might get out
of debt, then you might get back in debt, and
you feel so terrible when you're in the place of debt.
And so what we also tend to do is associate
whatever numbers in our bank account with our identity. That
(21:27):
if I have X amount of dollars, ooh, I feel
a certain way about myself. But if I get a raise, ooh,
I feel a different way. And oh then I lost
my job. Oh now I'm feeling And so we tie
these two things together that really need to be separated,
otherwise we're just constantly going to be drug around by
this thing called money.
Speaker 1 (21:47):
Love to know too, because I'm hearing you share all
of these and what is the balance? Right? We talk
about what is enough? But then it's okay, there is
a level of I do need to save and I don't.
I don't want to be in debt, and I also
would like to live my life. Where is this middle ground?
Where do we find that? How do we find that?
Speaker 2 (22:06):
I think it comes from really thinking out the choices
that we're making and really having some ownership, which kind
of sucks a lot at the time. Over it, I
will say I struggle with this myself, I don't really
want to do that, or oh, I really want to
go out and spend the money. And so I like
to teach like a pause. So you're up against a
(22:29):
spending decision, right, just built in half a second pause
where you can ask yourself, Okay, this is really what
I want to do. If the answer is yeah, I
really want to do it, Okay, am I gonna be
okay with it tomorrow? I don't know, build yourself in
this little questioning model. Now A lot of times the
answer can be yes, right, because this is not we're
(22:50):
not going for absolute perfection here. We're going for seventy
percent of the time. Maybe I pause and decide, Okay,
I'm gonna you know what, I'm gonna wait till tomorrow,
and if I still want to buy the thing tomorrow,
then I'll go ahead and do it right. And we
know usually tomorrow comes and we've already decided we don't
need the thing.
Speaker 1 (23:07):
Right.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
So I think you need to create a system for
yourself where you build in some of these tiny little
pauses where you can think through your spending and saving
decisions in a way that feels a little bit more
grounded and a little less like, especially around spending right,
a little less I need a dopamine hit. Can I
(23:29):
get my dopamine hit somewhere else? Like maybe I should
just go have a piece of chocolate or go for
a walk or something. And then sometimes it's no, I
need the dopamine hit. I'm just gonna go buy the thing.
But bringing this sense of intention so instead of feeling
like you're out of control with it, especially if you
have debt, right and you want to pay off the debt,
(23:50):
it's bring it back into your body, bring it back
into your nervous system and saying, okay, let me try
to be a little bit more intentional with the decisions
I make, and that then is going to help me
be more intentional with how I approach paying off this debt.
Speaker 1 (24:08):
That's really good and it's so funny you mentioned that
because I really think about this conversation that I have too,
because you mentioned the side of women and how we think,
and my fiance has this more different mindset whereas we
can always make more money, and I'm like, but I
don't think we can. I'm not going to ever think
that way. Money's not it doesn't grow on trees. I
(24:28):
learned that my whole life growing up. It doesn't come
out of nowhere. And it's not that he's not even
reckless with money. It's just more that he is really
much more intentional about also enjoying our life and being
happy while also doing the things that we need to
do and striking that balance that you're talking about of
(24:49):
intention and something that I've found that really works, especially
when it comes to purchases, because I'm also trying to
not just buy a bunch of stuff. I don't like
to have a lot of stuff. And I always sit
there for a few days if it's a big purchase
that I'm about to make, me big purchase over one
hundred dollars, right, like an a lot of things that
cost almost one hundred dollars by themselves these days, but
(25:10):
all over one hundred dollars, And I look at it
and I say, do I love this? Is it going
to just make me the happiest person in the world
to own whatever I'm about to buy? And if I
can't confidently say yes, I love this, this is everything
that I need, I'm going to think about it. If
I leave and I don't buy it, then I won't
get it. If I do not feel so much overlapping
(25:32):
joy over this one thing, I won't get it. And
that's what you're talking about with that pause.
Speaker 2 (25:36):
Absolutely, it's such a beautiful example. And you bring up
your your fiance, and this is where money gets really
tricky with relationships, because we tend to choose the person
who has a different money personality than we have, and
also that person has grown up with their own belief
(25:58):
systems around money and their own experiences, and so you
put that on top of us individually having really no
idea what our own relationship is around money, and you're
trying to bridge two people coming together, and it usually
is this is where arguments come up because you don't
(26:19):
even necessarily understand why you might be anxious or why
you might get in arguments about money, and your partner
doesn't necessarily know either, right, and so you're just like
to force this classing into each other and it's really learning, Okay,
what are your strengths, what are my strengths? And how
do we move just half an inch inward towards each
(26:43):
other knowing that your strengths are going to continue to
be yours and mine are going to continue to be mine.
And we're going to obviously have differences around this thing,
but let's see if we can do it in a
way that doesn't ignite one or both of our sort
of nervous system reactions all the time.
Speaker 1 (27:00):
Yes, And that's why I'm such a listen. I'm a
big person who I was single for a significant amount
of time and dating and going through the whole thing,
and I firmly believe in bringing up financial conversations very
early on in relationships. If this is somebody that you're
considering dating, you better at least understand who they are
with money and what they think about money, and what
(27:23):
do they like to save, do they not like to save?
Just what is their whole as we talk about it,
relationship with money. And I'm such a huge believer in
that I acted out in that believe. I'm pretty sure
my fiance we were like three or four days and
I'm like, so let's talk about this really quick. What
am I getting into here? What's so funny is he
already knew me pretty well at that point to be like,
(27:43):
I anticipated you to have these very bold conversations early on,
and I really am so happy that I did that,
and I just I wish more people would have those
conversations very early. I think it would save people a
lot of this grief and these stress that they enter into.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
And I think too, if you can come at it
with a sense of curiosity and not blame, that is
the best way in opening these conversations. So really trying
to understand, ask questions, Ask open ended questions, and let
the person respond and don't say something like I wouldn't
do it that way. Learn about how they interact with money,
(28:24):
learn about what makes them nervous or anxious around money,
learn about their childhood around money, like all of this
is really important information. But if we come at the
place where we start judging and passing blame, which most
of us do, then we get into the real sort
of danger area around this. So I say, just start
(28:46):
with questions and just if you have to sow your
mouth shut, just go the h okay, that's interesting, right,
and just keep it as information that going forward without
replying something negative.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
Absolutely, and that's how we should approach most conversations, right.
If you're having a hard conversation, it should be you're
listening with the intent to listen, not to respond, and
I know we're all guilty of that. It's hard not
to because we want to. I don't know if you're
like me, but I want to help them, Like I
can help with that. I know what we can do,
and I very much didn't. And I was proud of
(29:22):
myself in this situation. I was like, Okay, yeah, and
I'm just thinking my mind, I can work with that.
This is stuff that like, we clearly are similar in
a lot of ways, but it also reminds me of
I see a lot of people talk about how they
either grow up with SODA's and apps family, or they
grew up with a water only family. This is also
a topic of conversation.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
That's a great way to open up the conversation.
Speaker 1 (29:48):
Yeah, were you getting only waters or did you also
experience a lot of joy around the dinner table when
you go on to eat with every food item you
could possibly have. It's a very easy way to start
having that conversation. I actually love it. It's funny to
see the differences of people through that.
Speaker 2 (30:04):
That is great. I love that and any questions like that, right,
if we can just be if we can laugh about it,
if we can have fun with it, especially when you're
dating somebody that just takes the person off from immediately
like feeling defensive, maybe about having to justify something. And
if the other person is in debt or has student
(30:25):
loan debt or whatever it might be, or business failed
or something like that, they already feel bad enough. I
guarantee you about it. So yeah, I love that. Come
with fun, come with compassion, and it will change how
you interact.
Speaker 1 (30:42):
We talk about money, but money's another one of those
like really which is so interesting to me. Another thing,
especially as women, we've been told not to talk about money.
Don't talk about your finances, don't talk about what this is,
don't talk about how much you make. Don't you dare
find out what anybody else makes. There's this very kind
of hard conversation about not talking about money, and I
(31:05):
have liked to be a little devil on the shoulder
with that one and not done that. I very much
like to talk about money. So I'm curious your thoughts
on this because I think it's important. That's why we're
having this whole episode.
Speaker 2 (31:18):
I think it's really important. Like I wish when we
went out with our girlfriends we would talk about not
just like getting the raises and scoring the big deals,
but also talk about oof, I spent way too much
last month, or oh I'm paying off that last bit
of debt, or oh whatever it might be like, talk
about the things that feel shameful, maybe the things that
(31:41):
we never say out loud, but open them up as
conversations because I think that it helps the other person
as much as I know that it helps you. And
we can bring this this language around talking about money,
maybe we can change the dynamic, and we can change
how we ternalize it, just from the act of being
(32:02):
able to talk about these topics that feel very taboo,
especially around money.
Speaker 1 (32:08):
Very much so. And again, I don't want it to
be taboo anymore. If you're listening to this, I hope
you start having these conversations with girlfriends at dinner or
you're just talking about it a little bit more here
and there, maybe not to like the cashier at Kroger, but.
Speaker 2 (32:20):
You know, that could be like a really good conversation.
You never know, Dang, I.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
Can't believe my hunter for me that could open up.
Grocers are intensive right now. So you also talk a
lot about how people feel shame around money, and that's
really not how it's supposed to be, but feeling that
way makes them feel stuck, and the stuckness is what
gets a lot of people caught when it comes to
finances and moving forward. We discussed that how to do
(32:46):
something about where you're feeling right now. But I'm so
curious about this stuck face that a lot of people
get in because cycles love to repeat themselves, and if
we can avoid that would be awesome for a lot
of people.
Speaker 2 (32:58):
I think she is the most prevalent emotion around money
that people feel like it's just built in almost We
live in a very scarcity driven society, so it's hard
to escape it. Even you turn on the TV and
watch the commercials, and if you watch it from like
(33:19):
a different lens, you'll notice how many times money has
talked about, and how many times it's talked about in
the context of you're not where you should be, or
you're behind, or just something like that. Right, You're just
constantly hearing these messages over and over again. And I
think what's interesting about shame is it could be something
tiny that maybe caused a sense of shame, or could
(33:40):
be something big, and so we all have a different
definition or a different experience I should say around shame,
but we all internalize it and it creates a stuckness
because when we're in a pattern of feeling shameful about
whatever it might be, it doesn't tell our nervous system.
(34:01):
It actually tells our nervous system you can't be trusted
around money. And when you feel like you can't be
trusted about around money, you're not going to make decisions
that are in your best interest, or usually you don't
make any decision at all because you just get in
this freeze place where it's if I just don't do anything,
maybe that will make me feel better, and so it
(34:24):
doesn't spoiler alert. And so this stuckness is really getting
to what is it? Why am I stuck?
Speaker 1 (34:32):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (34:33):
I keep using the debt example, but it's the most
prevalent example. Maybe it's I'm in some debt, whether I
have a student loan debt or whatever it might be,
and I feel stuck. I make some payments, I get ahead,
and then there's more interest and like I just can't
get ahead. So it's really thinking about, Okay, what does
it go back to this? What is in my control?
What is that in my control? Is there any way
(34:54):
I could find like an extra twenty bucks a month. Yeah, okay,
maybe I could do that. Okay, maybe that twenty extra
buck is like the springboard to start paying more of
that debt off. And then maybe that thinking about you
know what I could do that. Maybe then that tells
my nervous system, ooh there's other things I could do.
Oh I could do this and this, and oh oh
(35:16):
I can make this decision instead of that decision. And
maybe I have drinks at home and I only have
one drink out with my friends or whatever it might be,
and you start to see opportunities. So when you're in
the place of shame, you're just in a shutdown mode
and you just it's not that you don't have the skills,
it's not that you're not smart, it's not any of
(35:36):
those things. It's just your body is wired to keep
you in that place because we're still like that way back.
We're still like the people where we're trying to outrun
the tigers. Our bodies still feel that same way, and
so start thinking about what is a tiny little something
I can do, tiny little thing, tiny little step. If
(35:58):
we're in five thousand dollars a debt going to pay
it all off tomorrow, But could I pay off ten
dollars this month? Maybe that's a tiny step. And those
tiny steps are going to budge you out of that
place of stuckness, and it's also going to help tame
down that shame a little bit. It doesn't all go away,
but it's just going to start moving you forward. And
(36:20):
when you can start to see progress, your body, your brain,
everything starts to respond to that happening.
Speaker 1 (36:28):
And I love this so much because I do feel
debt is such a unfortunately important topic for so many people,
even though we don't talk about that often, just like
we don't talk about finances. A lot of people don't
talk about their debt and the things because it's associated
with shame, and nobody wants to admit that they're in
debt or that they have things. And there's so many
(36:48):
people that are dealing with this, and debt is that
like hot button of I feel like as soon as
you even say that word, it triggers people to something
in them, just me idiately, like shivers where they're just
I have to identify this, and I am curious your take.
I love the tools to be able to start paying
(37:09):
off that debt, but somebody who is in it and
they're trying to figure things out with their life, but
they also want to live because there is this also.
I know I always have this thought in my mind
where I really want to save money, but what if
I'm not alive tomorrow and I don't ever get to
spend it? And that thought creeps in my mind way
(37:29):
more often than it probably should. But I imagine a lot
of people who are experiencing debt also have that where they're, yes,
I want to pay it off, but what happens if
I'm not here tomorrow and I never did anything I
wanted to do? So how do you handle that subject
where it's, yes, you need to pay this off and
take care of it, but also you want to live
life a little bit. It is such a good.
Speaker 2 (37:51):
Question, and I will say, and I talk about this
in my book with extreme honesty. I am a money expert,
and I have been in and out of debt myself.
I have probably made every money mistake humanly possible. And
I feel like it's important for someone like me to
say that because I know all the things you should do.
(38:13):
I know all the tips the tricks, like I know
all of that, and yet I've still had these things happen,
and I've still battled with exactly what you're talking about myself. First,
just know this is a very normal human reaction. And
I think there's a couple of things to think about.
One is that you are on your own personal journey
(38:34):
and your own personal relationship with money, and you are
the one that gets to set the rules. So if
you're in debt, but you're like, you know what, I
really want to go on a vacation with my friends
or my partner, that's your decision to make, and you
can actually make that decision. You could make that decision, Yeah,
I need to go on the vacation, Like the vacation
is going to give me a mental health break. I'm
(38:57):
gonna have fun, it's gonna be memories, blah blah blah,
whatever it is. You don't have to justify that to yourself.
You just go on the vacation. Or you could decide
and I really want to focus on paying off the debt, right,
But only you get to decide what is right and
what is wrong. No one else gets to tell you
what that is. So that's the first thing I want
you to know. Even though all the textberoks, all the
(39:18):
experts will say, Nope, you have to stay home and
just pay off your debt. Right, You're human, like you said,
So sometimes you're gonna make the choice of I need
to live. This thing is really important for me, I
need to see the ocean, et cetera, et cetera. And
I want you to just go do it without shame.
If that is your choice, just pick it and go
and tell yourself, I'm making a choice. There's no shame
(39:40):
involved in this. But then also if we're looking at okay,
but I'm in debt, I really want to pay off debt,
we tend to limit ourselves around what we think we
can do. There is so much more you can do
than you think you can do. I tell everyone this,
I can find money in your bank account. I can
find money in absolutely anybody's bank account because I'm looking
(40:03):
for opportunities to find ways we could do something better.
And there are lots of things like I call my
cell phone carrier every six months and say, hey, am
I on the best plan? Is there a better plan?
And I would say probably eight out of ten times,
I end up saving like twenty or thirty bucks a
month because there's a better plan that comes out, or
shopping my car insurance or things like that that may
seem like a chore, but these are like little extra
(40:26):
buckets of money that I can find where I don't
have to earn more money, but then I can reposition
that towards debt or towards whatever I want it to
go towards. There are opportunities inside your bank account right now.
You just need to find them. And you can find
them when you start letting go of the shame and
just saying, let me see if there's like some interesting
(40:47):
things I can do here. But there are other options
to pay off debt. Right Maybe you're gonna have to
get a personal loan. Maybe you might have to get
a second job just to pay off that debt. We
get stuck in like our own. I don't want to
do that. I have a friend who lost their job,
and I'm like, you go Trader Joe's right now and
get like probably a really good paying job to bring
(41:08):
in some man. Oh, I don't know that. What does
that say about me? And I've got degrees, and I'm like,
what choice do you want to make? Like you have options,
you have things in your control So that's the second
part of this, right, is what do I want and
broadening the vision to go, oh, there are actually some
things I can do right, and it's actually maybe not
that hard. Like I can actually do a few things.
(41:30):
I love to bake cupcakes, and so I bake cupcakes,
and everybody hires me for like their parties and things.
It's an extra fifty bucks every time somebody buys a
dozen of cupcakes. I can take that money and I
can put it towards something else. So those are just
a couple of things. I wish there was like a
magic answer, but those are just a couple of things
(41:51):
to think about. But I really want you to know
like you have ultimate choice in what you decide. Yeah,
I want you to be human too, and I also
want you to pay off debt. And you don't have
to do the two things all at once, Like you
can pick and choose, but pick and choose without that
sense of shame.
Speaker 1 (42:07):
I know you said there's no magic answer, but I
really liked your answer. I thought it was great, and
I gave us the ability to have both because that
is the human experience right there. There is not a
single person in this world who doesn't want to not
pay off their debt, who doesn't want to save money,
who would also like to go on vacations, who would
also like to do the things that they allow them
(42:28):
to live their life. There's not a single person who
would not disagree with any of those things. And so
to really start to understand that relationship that we have
with life is what you're doing to help people truly
get a better way of living with their finances. And
I think that's so cool. So magic answer to me.
I know it's not the actual magic answer, and we
(42:49):
can't just like any boppityboo and debt is gone. That
would be great, but I loved your answer. I thought
it was awesome, So thank you. I do love to
end the podcast with a piece of advice or a
piece of motivation or inspiration or just something maybe we
didn't talk about where you it feels really heavy for
you that you were like, I need to share this information.
So it's where I just hand the platform over to
(43:10):
you and you're gonna take us on whatever journey you
want to end this thing.
Speaker 2 (43:15):
Wow, we have talked about so much when it comes
to money. I also give you just one extra little
something to do a little journal prompt for the journal
listeners out there. This is something I love to do.
I end every night with this. I write myself what
I call a Hey shawna letter, so whatever your name is,
(43:35):
a Morgan, whatever, and I literally just get out everything
around money that has been stored up during the day.
So sometimes it's good things, sometimes it's bad things. Sometimes
it's me cursing at the it. Sometimes it's me can't
decide what I'm doing about a certain option, but I
just get it out of my head and get it
(43:56):
down on paper. And I would say, find something we
talked about lots of different tools, but find something that
works for you, that feels like you can have some
sort of ease around money, because that's what I want
you to feel, not that it's always going to be easy,
but that you can sit in the messy and you
still have this sense of ease.
Speaker 1 (44:17):
Oh that's really good. And you loved us with something
to do. I love an activity. My journal has all
kinds of different scribbles in it. Now it'll have another
scribble in it of different things. So Shanna, thank you
so much for your expertise and being vulnerable and sharing
parts of your story. Too, and it was just really
awesome to have you on.
Speaker 2 (44:36):
Thanks so much.
Speaker 1 (44:37):
If you resonated with Shawna's story, you can connect with
her more on social media at Shauna Game or check
out her book, Unraveling Your Relationship with Money. More to
come in the next few weeks on all things love
and relationships. If there's anything you want me to address
under that umbrella, then dm me on Instagram at take
this personally. If this is where I leave you, I
hope you have a great week, Stay safe. Thanks for
(44:58):
being here with me, and I love you. Please tell
more people that you love them. That's what this month
is actually all about, reminding people that we care, we're there,
and hey, I love you.
Hosts And Creators
Bobby Bones
Amy Brown
Lunchbox
Eddie Garcia
Morgan Huelsman
Raymundo
Mike D
Abby Anderson
Scuba Steve
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