The Book of Joe: Castellanos future, Trout Plan, ABS Ready, and Dodgers Spring Training!

Hosts Joe Maddon and Tom Verducci open with the future of Nick Castellanos with the Padres.  Tom looks at what's ahead for Mike Trout this season while Joe suggests a plan for the team to follow for success.  It's time for the ABS system in baseball and Tom explains how teams are preparing to use it.  After being at Dodgers camp, Tom talks about the team and Shohei Ohtani's start to the season. Plus, our hosts pay homage to the passing of Robert Duvall.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:04):
The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.

Speaker 2 (00:15):
Hey There and Welcome back.

Speaker 1 (00:17):
It's the Book of Joe Podcast with me, Tom Verducci
and Joe med Joe watching the San Diego Padres recently,
it reminded me of garage sales.

Speaker 2 (00:29):
You fan of garage sales or were you at any point?

Speaker 3 (00:32):
I always driving by? You got to take a look.

Speaker 4 (00:34):
I don't always walk in, but if something really appeals
from the from the drive by, I might stop.

Speaker 2 (00:41):
Yeah, it's the treasurer hunt in a way.

Speaker 3 (00:43):
That seems to be.

Speaker 1 (00:44):
Uh, that's what the Padres are doing. You know, they
needed a they were looking around for a right handed bat,
so they picked up one. Then they picked up another,
and they picked up another. He needed some starting pitching depth,
and they picked up one, they picked up another and another.
I mean we're talking about Miguel and dujar Ty France,

(01:04):
Nick Castillanos on the offensive side, and he just picked
up Walker Bueller, Griffin Canning and Herman Marquez. That's a
lot of flyers to pick up there, and obviously they're
not all going to make the team. But let me
start with Nick Castillanos, because Joe, you had him with
the Cubs. It's a fascinating story the way his tenure

(01:25):
with the Philadelphia Phillies ended ungloriously. And give him his credit,
he actually came out and explained what happened there with
the Phillies. We're a little bit circumspect about the reasons
why they gave up on him, but you know him
pretty well.

Speaker 2 (01:40):
Joe.

Speaker 1 (01:41):
First of all, tell me your thoughts on Nick Castianos.
It did seem like that divorce had to be finalized
in Philadelphia, and it was.

Speaker 2 (01:48):
And where he goes from here.

Speaker 4 (01:50):
Yeah, Nicki's a different cat. I'm here to say we
had a wonderful relationship. What I mean is, in today's world,
Nicki is like brutally frank and honest. It's it's almost
he he doesn't filter anything. He just says what's on
his mind in the moment. And because of that, I
really I did enjoy that we had. You know, primarily

(02:11):
our conversations were always good. Before every game, he come
up to me and he would always shake my hand,
look me right in the eyes because he has this
like real piercing starees. His eyes have that way about
them that they really they kind of cut through you.
Happy Opening Day, Happy Opening Day, he would always add.
Before every game he came up, shake my hand, look

(02:32):
me in the eyeballs, and say happy opening Day. It
was just his zeal for the game. He really loves baseball.
He does. He loves the game. He loves to play
the game. I felt he always played it hard. He
always played wherever you asked him to play, went from
the infield to the outfield with Detroit. When I got
in with the Cubbies, there was a big rap on

(02:54):
his defense, and I asked analytical team, what do you
mean by that?

Speaker 3 (02:58):
Why? Why do you do not like his defense? And
they weren't.

Speaker 4 (03:01):
Unable to give me an answer, which I always found
disconce because if you don't like something, to tell me why.
So I had to like dig into that a little
bit and come up to my own conclusions with it.
But with the Cubs, man the guy. The guy only
hit line gap gap line. It was amazing. He was
a doubles machine. It's just the way his swing works.
It was like carved to right center of down the

(03:21):
rightfield line. It was hooked into the gap or down
the line on the left side. So he's a very
interesting fellow, deeply rooted in his family, loves his son.

Speaker 3 (03:32):
Man, they're inseparable.

Speaker 4 (03:34):
So there's so many complicated individual I guess that's what
I'm describing. I think in his heart of hearts, he's
just a real honest guy. I mean, he's just he's
just like an open book again, no filter, And I
can understand why. You know, in a moment, if he
gets upset, maybe something came out that either misinterpreted in

(03:55):
a sense, or something that he just couldn't hold back
from saying, because that's just who he is. But if
he goes down there to San Diego or to San
Diego and regains his confidence in a sense and starts
doing the line gap gap.

Speaker 3 (04:09):
Line thing again.

Speaker 4 (04:10):
I see they're working with him at first base, which
I find interesting. But the guy's at doubles machine. He
loves to play the game, and I enjoyed my time
with him. He's just he does. Here's a different beat,
and you have to understand that.

Speaker 1 (04:24):
Yeah, listen, I think it's a good move by the
Padres to at least take a flyer here. It's literally
costing nothing major league minimum salary because he still has
the twenty mil coming from Philadelphia.

Speaker 2 (04:35):
Yeah, listen, he knows Manny Machado.

Speaker 1 (04:38):
Let's face it, a j Peler made sure he goes
to Manny Machado before he signs someone like that, and
many is all endorsed it.

Speaker 2 (04:46):
So that's all good.

Speaker 1 (04:47):
You've got Craig Stammin, a rookie manager there and never
even coached in pro ball. You know how he arranges
playing time, first base, outfield.

Speaker 2 (04:56):
Whatever. We'll see, But I do think, Joe, that it
had to end in Philly.

Speaker 3 (05:01):
Now.

Speaker 2 (05:01):
We saw the writing on the wall when they signed
a Dolie Garcia.

Speaker 1 (05:04):
And he's another guy who he's a bounced back candidate.
Terrible year last year, actually the last couple of years
where it looks like he's just late on everything.

Speaker 2 (05:14):
We'll see if Kevin Long can get him right, as
he's has done a lot of people.

Speaker 1 (05:19):
But listen, you bring a beer into the dugout after
being taken out of the game, you question the manager.

Speaker 2 (05:25):
He's too strict in some ways, too loose in to
other ways. It just can't happen.

Speaker 1 (05:29):
And listen, if you're a star player and you're playing well,
you know this, Joe, you get a little more rope
right and you kind of move on from that because
the guy's productive bottom line is he hadn't been productive
with the Phillies or else he might still be there.
He's below average defensively, you know, I know what you
said about the analytics. I get it, but just eyeballing it.
You know, he's okay, but he's probably below major league

(05:50):
gaverage on the corners of the outfield. And his bat
actually has not been the same in the last couple
of years. He's been slightly below average offensively. So I
think it's a change of scenery candidate, and it's a
good move by aj Preller to pick him up. But
I do think he just couldn't bring him back to
Philadelphia because internally and even externally in that city.

Speaker 2 (06:10):
And you know that well, Joe, no no doubt.

Speaker 3 (06:12):
I mean, listen, that was irreparable.

Speaker 4 (06:15):
I thought, I don't know that anything could have been
said to bring Robbie and him back together again. And
it's sometimes things like that's just occur, and it's.

Speaker 3 (06:23):
Part of life.

Speaker 4 (06:24):
It's part of the world, not just in baseball. So
the Phillies did what they had to do. I think
on the San Diego side of it, it's like you said,
it's a low risk potentially decently high reward if everything
works out, so both teams.

Speaker 3 (06:37):
That's just how that. Again, the game works.

Speaker 4 (06:39):
You know, you sometimes you're the fortunate group to get
a guy after a couple of years it's a little
bit older. I normally talk about that in regards to
again the twenty seven or twenty eight year old. However,
it was irreparable. There's no question about that, and that's
fine and whatever. However you want to slice and dice it.
It's stuff like this occurs. So Phillies moved on. Padres

(07:01):
pick it up. I like Nikki, I wish him well
and like I said, if he comes out of this
and just re establishes confidence. The other point I was
trying to make and I forgot, was.

Speaker 3 (07:12):
Just to Chase.

Speaker 4 (07:12):
I mean, he says a lack of discipline in the
box sometime is really what gets him in trouble. He'll
just start, He'll get in like Chase slider mode down
in a way. You don't have to throw him a
strike at all.

Speaker 1 (07:22):
Oh Joe, we're talking about a guy who swings more
than seventy percent of the time on first pitches. You
just can't do that in major leagues. There's aggressiveness. Then
there's over aggressiveness, right.

Speaker 4 (07:32):
If he could somehow curb his enthusiasm, they're just a
little bit that would be very helpful. But I'll tell
you what, I've seen him hot man, Damn when when
when that boy gets hot, it gets real hot. And
like I said, it's it's extra base hits. He's always
in scoring position. So that's that's what the Padres are
probably betting on, and I really wish him well.

Speaker 1 (07:50):
I can give your thumbnail thoughts on the Padres too,
because we all know, you know, the Dodgers are the
class of Major League Baseball. That's how you measure yourself
in that division. Arizona was a really good team last year,
just barely missed out in the playoffs. I think they're
going to be good again. I'm fascinated by the Giants,
you know, I don't know how much they've improved, but
they've had a different vibe there with Tony Vattello there

(08:13):
taking over. But the Padres to me, because this team
now is up for sale and we know that they
don't have the kind of dough they We're spending for
a while there to try to keep up with the Dodgers,
or at least draft behind them. I'm a little bit
worried about their depth going in, relying big time on
guys like Joe Musgrove and King and Michael King and
guys who are coming off injuries. This is not to me,

(08:36):
Joe the same sort of Padres team with a lot
of depth to hang with the Dodgers. So a j
Preller bringing a lot of guys in trying to think,
you know, find some lightning in a bottle here. But
give me your take on San Diego and where they
reside in the order of the NL West as we
start spring training here.

Speaker 4 (08:56):
Well, they just probably just got a contract extension, correct,
I think Crash read that today. So there's there's that
kind of continuity there that I think definitely supports and
aids the next several years. Regarding how the players view
this whole situation, you know, casting call like this a

(09:17):
lot of times is because, like you're saying, I'm not
happy with my depth going into the season, I'm not
quite sure in these different areas. So I'm going to
go out and sign the Nikky's and all the other
fellows that you had mentioned regarding trying to one or
two stick.

Speaker 3 (09:32):
I really I'm a Griffin Canning fan. I hope I hope.

Speaker 4 (09:35):
Griff as well and pitches as well as he did
last year with the Mets. This guy is a great athlete.
He's got really good stuff. It's not high end velocity,
but he knows how to pitch. And like I said,
he's a superior athlete from the UCLA Chine. I'd love
to see that work out for him. So he's trying
to create depth there obviously through these multiple signings and
see what happens is a lot of these guys have

(09:57):
been successful. Obviously, it's not like you're just bringing in
unknown commodities. So that's I've always thought when you go
into spring training a really good team, because with the Rais,
we got good. We break for camp and you go
to camp and there might be one, maybe two positions,
you know, barring injury, that you kind of are having

(10:18):
like auditions for during that spring training, and when you're
having more than that, it gets a little bit disconcerting
because obviously I didn't think we were as good if
you have that many auditions going on in order to
make your roster, I like the more settled group, and
then you could build your depth from people that you like,
whether during spring training, acquisition, or young guys coming up.

(10:38):
So I think it speaks a little bit to their uncertainty.
Having said all that, to me, the most fascinating and
interesting place to be in baseball right now would be
a team in the NL West that is not known
as the Los Angeles Dodgers. I think, to me, the
ability the opportunity to play against those people often and

(11:03):
be those people at some point and to send above them,
to me, it would be the most fascinating job to have.
And while you're doing that, understand one thing, and I
believe this very firmly, just you can't go about it
in the same method or manner as they are. I mean,
they are out bringing out resource you. They're going to
have talent you a bit to a certain extent. So

(11:25):
if you just want to go toe to toe, big gloves,
fifteen round heavyweight fight, it's gonna be very difficult. This
is we talked about a gorilla warfare, you know, uh,
banging their kneecaps, kicking the shins, whatever. You Really you
just have to create a different plan of attack, and
on a nightly basis, not We're not be concerned about

(11:47):
taking risks chances and never worry about losing. You you
got to beat them mentally somehow and play a better
brand of baseball.

Speaker 3 (11:55):
So to me, it's exciting to be.

Speaker 4 (11:57):
A Padre, a Rocky, a Giant Diamondback right now, Diamondbacks
are okay. That to me is like really fascinating situation.
So if you're in Padre camp on a nightly basis
or all any of those camps, to sit there among
your players and your staff to talk about ways that
we're going to get over the top of these guys,

(12:18):
I think it'd be really fascinating and really fun. And
people might think nuts for saying that stuff, but I
it's like the race versus the Yankees and the Red
Sox and then two thousand and five to twenty ten
range the most fun on a daily basis, plotting and
planning to beat those guys.

Speaker 2 (12:35):
No, I love that thinking, Joe. It reminds me of
I'm sure this happened to you.

Speaker 1 (12:39):
You're getting a foursome with a scratch golfer, right, You're
scratching and claw on yourself and you're thinking, I can
beat this guy, right right?

Speaker 2 (12:46):
I mean, you love the challenge. That's what it's about.

Speaker 1 (12:49):
Hey, I want to ask you about another one of
your former outfielders, Mike Trout. Mike Trout shows up at
the Angels camp and basically says, I want to play
center field, which you didn't do a lot of last
year after you had that knee bruise it came off
the e and spend a lot of time as a DH.
But Mike Trapp believes he's better in center field. You know,

(13:10):
they tried him in the corner. But he actually said
something interesting Joe where he thought, of course people talk
about the wear and tear and trying to keep Mike Healthay,
maybe he's better off on the corner.

Speaker 2 (13:19):
He actually said he's better off in center field.

Speaker 1 (13:22):
That he thought when he was in rayfield there was
more wear and tear, and that could be true backing
up bases and whatnot. But I think in this case
you have to respect the player there and listen. They
don't have a center fielder, d Angels. You know Joe
Adell played out there, not a center fielder.

Speaker 2 (13:38):
Not my book.

Speaker 1 (13:39):
He's a much better on a quarter anyway. You've got
Solaire's the DH there taking up those with bats.

Speaker 2 (13:45):
So they've got to give this a run.

Speaker 1 (13:47):
You know, put Mike Trout out there in center field
and spring training, see how it goes. You know, Joe,
if you're Kurtzuzuki first year manager, like Craig Staman, he's
a guy who's never coached even in a professional level,
is now the manager of this team on a one
year deal. By the way, I think you just had
to honor Mike Trout and see how it goes in
the center field. You start with him, and you hope

(14:08):
it works out, and you hope he stays healthy.

Speaker 3 (14:09):
Agreed.

Speaker 4 (14:10):
I mean, I really, you know, you all hope that
he stays well and healthy. I mean, it's been a
while since that's occurred, you know, upfront and center. Watching
his physical talents on a nightly basis, it's it's pretty impressive.

Speaker 3 (14:23):
He is all of that. I think his his plea
right here is basically based on comfort more than anything.
I I can't tell you.

Speaker 4 (14:32):
I mean, theoretically, you would think that a center field
has more to cover, more movement whatever than any any
either of the corner outfielders on a nightly basis, going
right to left, coming in, going back, diving a little.

Speaker 3 (14:44):
Bit either way all the above, I would.

Speaker 4 (14:48):
I would think that a center fielder normally would have
more wear and tear on his body than a corner
guy would. I think that's just breaking it down. I'd
really like to take a poll of other guys. Although,
like Jimmy played center and right field in the minor
leagues a little bit for the Angels, I just like
there for more center fielders exactly if they've played other positions.

Speaker 3 (15:06):
Maybe Cody Bellen should be a good take on that.

Speaker 4 (15:08):
But I think it's more of a comfort zone for him,
the way he sees the ball off the bat. I
think primarily, you know, if you really pressed them, I
think that would be the reason why he wants to
do it. I mean to try to like parcel out
which which is the more difficult on the body. That's
going to be subjective to the to the player. So
I think it's a comfort zone thing. I think he
wants to get back where he had been great, and

(15:30):
I think that's part of it.

Speaker 3 (15:31):
You're right.

Speaker 4 (15:31):
I mean with the younger manager, you there's gonna be
a little push or blowback regarding that, and there really
shouldn't be in this situation. Like I said, there's no
other real viable candidates that they are not breaking in
the next center field there after Mike leaves. So that's
it's kind of an easy dialogue, I think, especially in
the situation that they're in. So putting Mike back in
his comfort zone, you know, really you still got to

(15:55):
create a plan with him. I believe, for Rest I do.
That has to be built in before this season begins.
How many days and again, it's just something that's you
come up with your thoughts and your plans. It's not
like you just write it down right now and you
need to give him days off. You just really watch
and monitor it. You look at your day games, after
night games, all that kind of good stuff. I think

(16:16):
a combination of putting him back he's comfortable and then
really plodding out internally. We're gonna give this guy days
off and not like a day off and have him
dh day off. I get him off his speed, let
him permit him to come in, relax his mind, relax
his body, and probably if you get one hundred and
twenty five games out of him this year, god bless.
I think they'd sign up for that right now.

Speaker 2 (16:36):
It's a great point, John, I'm with you.

Speaker 1 (16:38):
I think you do have to realize that right now,
Mike Trout is what thirty four years old.

Speaker 2 (16:43):
He's a very physical player, as you know. I mean,
he's what two hundred and forty pounds.

Speaker 1 (16:48):
It's easy, big dude plans center field, plays the game hard,
still has above average speed, so you got to be
really careful. And Mike always wants to play. We know
that almost have to protect them from himself. But here,
Joe is you know what kind of hitter can Mike
be at this point? I maybe you go back in

(17:10):
the last two years and understanding always.

Speaker 2 (17:12):
Been battling through injuries.

Speaker 1 (17:13):
Right, He's hit two thirty over one hundred and fifty
nine games in the last two years. And there's only
one hitter in baseball who saw more fastballs last year
than Mike Trout, and that was Luise Rise. And let's
face it, you're going at Luis or Rise with fastballs
because first of all, you can hit just about anything
spinning it off speed up there. But he's generally not

(17:35):
going to hit the ball out of the park, so
people challenge him.

Speaker 2 (17:38):
If you're looking at.

Speaker 1 (17:39):
The guys who see the highest percentage of fastball, it's
normally guys who are not power hitters. In this case,
Mike Trout still hasn't really covered the fastball above the hands,
and so he sees that over and over and over again.
And I'm just wondering, I don't think there's gonna be
a major swing change with Mike Trout. You know what

(18:01):
Mike Trout can be with sort of this limitation that
he has the whole at the top of the zone
on velocity, especially now since when you think about Mike
when he broke in Joe and where velocity is now,
I mean, it's a rough I remember talking to Paul
Goldschmid about this and the course of their careers. Guys
who are in their mid thirties, the amount of velocity

(18:22):
of the game has just exploded, and you're not getting
any younger. So you don't fire as quickly against the
against pitchers who are literally firing faster. It's a challenge
for Mike Trout.

Speaker 4 (18:35):
Yeah, and we're describing right there. There's a perfect example
of how scouting and analytics evolved just based on notoriety, size, whatever.
Before most every team got into the analytical world and
really started to develop pitching plans based on heart facts.

Speaker 3 (18:53):
And data.

Speaker 4 (18:54):
It would be all anecdotal. I mean, the big guy,
strong guy rockets throw on the fastball. Were you nuts,
He's gonna kill your fastball? But then you realize, no,
let's look at this. We're finding out there's this, this,
this hole right here we can take advantage of. I
know when I was with the when he first started
out with the Raid, when I was at the Rays,
and I love Jake McGee on him.

Speaker 3 (19:14):
I would love to bring Jake McGee on him.

Speaker 4 (19:16):
Jake left handed pitch with that riding fastball in that
little quadrant up and away from a writing that was,
to me was my favorite matchup any any of all
of our guys that could ride a fastball. I wanted
them pitching on him even back then. But you know,
a guy like McGee was really obvious to me. So
that was like my first taker indicator of this that

(19:36):
I this is observational for me that I thought I
liked elevated fastball, elevated fastball slightly up and away from
him also. But then again more teams got onto this
kind of stuff and then it was exposed he is
a great low ball hitter. I'm always baffled, like when
he hits a home run. I'll watch the video because
I want to find out what kind of pitch was it,
where it was it located. Almost it seems like often

(19:59):
it is something off speed and off speed down. It
doesn't miss that very often. Whenever he takes a pitch down,
even a fastball down, he should be upset with himself
anything like you're saying from belt down, this guy he
should really just want to go up there hacking on it.

Speaker 3 (20:13):
Agreed. I don't think it's being easy. Excuse me.

Speaker 4 (20:16):
It would not be an easy adjustment to start learning
how to get on top of that pitch up.

Speaker 3 (20:22):
Maybe if he.

Speaker 4 (20:24):
At least wanted to develop a little bit more of
a two strike approach and even to the point of
choking up and really conceding certain things. You have to
make certain concessions, I think in order to be where
he's at and have to become successful against this pitch
that everybody knows about.

Speaker 3 (20:38):
So that's my history with him.

Speaker 4 (20:41):
But I'll tell you one thing, if you make a
mistake down, it's going off the rocks.

Speaker 2 (20:44):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (20:44):
Him and Mark Maguire are the two best low ball
hitters I've ever seen. By the way, it's sixty five
percent fastballs that he sees. And I'd also like to
see Mike just pull the trigger on first pitch fastballs
a little more often and not concede though, just gear
up for those.

Speaker 2 (20:59):
Hey, we're going to take a quick break here of
the Book of Joe.

Speaker 1 (21:02):
I really want to ask Joe about the automatic ball
strike system that's coming, the Challenge system. I just got
back from Arizona talked with a lot of general managers
and managers about what is there a strategy for this
new strategy.

Speaker 2 (21:17):
In Major League Baseball. We'll talk about that right after
this on the Book of Joe. Welcome back to the
Book of Joe.

Speaker 1 (21:34):
Well, it's here, Joe, the Challenge system on balls and strikes.

Speaker 2 (21:39):
Now, don't get all bad of shape about it.

Speaker 1 (21:41):
You know, it's not going to change the game a
whole lot. On average, you're going to see four challenges
of a game. It's going to literally add about one
minute to the length of the game.

Speaker 2 (21:54):
But you will see in very big moments there will
be challenges, and that's exactly what it's designed to do
to remedy those game changing calls that everybody can see
were missed. I like that end of it.

Speaker 1 (22:10):
My question for you, Joe, is that as a manager,
this is something you're going to have to manage. There
are some teams now are looking at this and waiting
to see how it plays out.

Speaker 2 (22:20):
Some are saying, we don't want our pitchers.

Speaker 1 (22:23):
Challenging because they're farthest from the strike zone on the
mound and they think everything's a strike. And then there
are certain hitters you're probably gonna have to coach up
and say, listen, I know you think you have this
great idea of the strike zone, but you really don't.
So you better save these challenges and not be burning
them in the second inning with two outs and.

Speaker 2 (22:41):
Nobody on base. So, Joe, how would you approach this?

Speaker 1 (22:45):
The thing I did notice talking to these people out
in Arizona was that last year people didn't take it
too seriously. Remember they had it in spring training last
year because they knew it wasn't going to be used
in the regular season. Now they know it is going
to be used, and I think it's more of a
dress rehearsal that, you know, let's try to figure out
how we're going to use this again. I don't think

(23:06):
it's going to be a huge impact on the game,
but it will have some impact. What's your thoughts on
as a manager, how you would adjudicate this new system
of challenges.

Speaker 4 (23:15):
First of all, I'd like to have been on the field,
to be on the field to really watch and see
this to give you probably a better answer, just observationally
and speaking with the primarily with you about it, because
I trust your judgment implicitly. All this stuff you just
said makes sense. Would you'd want to trust the catcher?

(23:38):
But I'm telling you what, even with certain catchers, there's
some guys you would trust more than others, And it's
just knowing.

Speaker 3 (23:44):
It's kind of comes down to knowing your guys.

Speaker 4 (23:47):
I think you would have a group meeting, but then
you might have to have some like one on one
meetings primarily with those that you don't really trust in
this moment more so than the guys that you do.
I think you could have like a blanket meeting that
covers the whole thing in regards to philosophically how we
feel about this, we want to utilize it. And then

(24:07):
after that there's going to be certain guys that you
just really don't trust their opinion at all. Balls and strikes.
It's it's been played out over time. The guys that
you've had, guys that you're just coming in the door,
maybe not so much reputation might will precede.

Speaker 3 (24:23):
Them, and you have to listen to that too.

Speaker 4 (24:24):
But for me, this is something that requires a lot
of one on one conversation. Beyond, like they said, the
group meeting, I think you'd have to make adjustments during
the course of the year.

Speaker 3 (24:35):
Possibly you you might see things differently.

Speaker 4 (24:38):
But the fact that they've done it, even in spring training,
and the fact that it's been done in the minor leagues,
I'm sure there's been a lot of anecdotal information being
given to major league guys now from guys in the
minor leagues that have seen it more often, and you're
going to get a better kind of opinion on how
to do this from folks that have actually been through it. So,

(25:01):
like I said, from a distance, it would be a
group meeting absolutely, and then to be an individual meeting
to encourage or suggest to those or ask those that
you don't really missing.

Speaker 3 (25:12):
Man, you're always.

Speaker 4 (25:12):
Complaining about borderline pitches. You know you might be you know,
thirty forty percent right at best. I prefer that you
did not do not do this right now, that kind
of a thing. I mean, it's it's gonna be some
tough conversations. But in order to preserve these challenges for
when you need them, you have to be honest with
your guys. In the one number two, this could happen

(25:33):
in the first inning, then it's absolutely required. I mean,
bases loaded, two outs, whatever, full count pitch if you
didn't like it, or you liked it and you want
to dispute the umpire's call. So it could happen in
the first inning as well as the ninth inning. It's
not like it's built for a particular inning in the game.

Speaker 2 (25:47):
Well, you're right, Joe.

Speaker 1 (25:48):
They do have the data when it was used in
the minor leagues, not that it's exactly the same as
the major leagues, but I think it's something to go
by here. And the fact is, even with these challenges,
they're one only about fifty percent of the times a
coin flip.

Speaker 2 (26:04):
I mean we're talking about borderline pitches, right.

Speaker 1 (26:08):
Yes, Pitchers when they have challenge and they don't challenge
as often as the hitter or the catcher, they're wrong
more than the pitcher. And then the better and the
catcher I think this plays a tremendous responsibility. Even more
not they don't have a lot on their plate already
on catchers, because they do see the strikes on best
with their vantage point directly behind it. They work with

(26:31):
umpires all the time, and as far as the strategy
the game goes, I think they have a really good
understanding of when to challenge when not to.

Speaker 2 (26:38):
So I think, almost like Joe, if you have a catcher.

Speaker 1 (26:41):
Behind a plate who's really just, for lack of a
better term, smart high baseball IQ, that could be a
bit of an edge. And I say again, a bit
of an edge because you're only talking about maybe two
or three challenges that are overturned the course of the game.
But again and in some situations, it could change a game.

Speaker 2 (26:59):
So I like it. I like the fact that there's
fan engagement here.

Speaker 1 (27:02):
It takes fifteen sixteen seconds extup on the scoreboard, everybody
can follow along in real time. If there's going to
be the biggest change, I think it's that, based on
the minor league history, strikeouts are going to go down slightly.
That's a good thing, and walks are going to go
up slightly because remember, these umpires now have to call

(27:24):
the exact zone where you know, and I know that
traditionally they call a zone that's more oval than it
is rectangular. And especially it's count dependent, right that three
to zero pitch that is a little bit off the plate.
The umpire's ninety percent of the time going to call
out a strike, not gonna do that anymore. So that's

(27:45):
why you're going to see walks go up slightly in
twenty twenty six.

Speaker 4 (27:50):
Do you discuss situationally meaning leadoff hitters, you know, in
a two strike situation like say a full count two
leadoff hitter, that's big because this is I'm saying number one,
number two would be unders in scoring position and even
to the point of like the hitter coming up with
two outs like say say, for instance, judges on deck

(28:11):
and it's like you know, a borderline three two pitch,
two outs that would load the bases, there's no place
to put judge.

Speaker 3 (28:18):
Is that also an indicator situation to go.

Speaker 4 (28:21):
Ahead and challenge I would have to believe that analytics
can could pinpoint those particular moments situations that we are
more highly charged and regardings to challenging because the benefits
could be greater.

Speaker 2 (28:37):
Yeah, I think you're right.

Speaker 1 (28:38):
It's almost like a football coach having that card right
when to go for two when not. The only thing
here is this has to be done instantaneously, right by
the batter, pitcher, catcher.

Speaker 2 (28:46):
So you're talking about one or two seconds.

Speaker 4 (28:48):
Of course, of course, in that nobody could yell from
the dugout. No, the manager can't yell.

Speaker 2 (28:52):
Nobody can yell from the dougouts.

Speaker 4 (28:53):
Interesting, Yeah, so okay, again, i'd have to see this
in play.

Speaker 3 (29:00):
It'd be like, really, oh my god.

Speaker 4 (29:02):
There's certain guys okay, like the guy hitting in front
of judge or like you know whomever. O Tawny like
to have a conversation with him because I want him
at the play. This is going to be the third out,
third strike, and it was borderline eating over. Maybe that's
a good time the challenge. Get him up with multiple
runners on base as an example, you know, with the
leadoff hitter again, that's that's kind of obvious, and the

(29:25):
runners in scoring position in general, you know, getting that
to that next pitch. I don't know if it's a
is it a zero out play, is it a one
out plays?

Speaker 3 (29:33):
Is it a two out play?

Speaker 4 (29:34):
Meaning the play being the challenge the system and what
regards to the different number of outs and innings play
into the challenge or not. You would think with zero
outs you would be more app But like I'm saying,
with the two out situation with a prodigious hitter on
deck and when there's multiple runners, I think that have
to be something interesting to think about. So there's a

(29:55):
lot to talk about and to have, like you know,
the baseball I Q among the players themselves to be
able to be in the moment enough or maybe like
the manager reminds him where a coach reminds you before
he goes up to here. Listen, if we get deep
into count, we get to this point and it's borderline,
we want, we want so and so up to the plate.
If you honestly believe it's a borderline, go ahead and
challenge it. I mean, there's got to be some kind

(30:17):
of reminder system. If in fact you're going to come
out with this laundry list of dues and don'ts.

Speaker 3 (30:22):
There's got to be some.

Speaker 4 (30:23):
Kind of like a pre maybe whether hitters in the hole,
just to remind him of certain little things. Maybe there's
a seasons in progress you have to remind him less,
maybe earlier in the season remind him more.

Speaker 2 (30:34):
Yeah, we'll see.

Speaker 1 (30:35):
That's so I said, I think spring training this year
is going to be interesting because I do think they
have to take it on a game type, like a
regular season game type situation, to just kind of try
it out all those scenarios you were mentioning.

Speaker 2 (30:49):
As a fan.

Speaker 1 (30:50):
I think this is pretty cool that when you're watching
game on television now or you're following it online, the
strike zone that you see will be exactly the strike
zone that's being called by the ABS system.

Speaker 2 (31:04):
In the past, those did not merge, they did not
match up.

Speaker 1 (31:08):
So a lot of times you'd be watching a game
on television and you see this K zone or the
bars of the strike zone, you're thinking, man, that was
a strike. Well, not necessarily, because it all varied based
on who is doing the broadcast. Now it's the exact
strike zone. These guys are all laser laser measured in
spring training, and they have a formula to decide how

(31:28):
tall the strike zone is. We know how wide it
is at seventeen inches where it starts on the top
of the bottom based on a percentage of your height.
So that strike zone is immutable I mean, it is
what it is based on your height, and it'll be
the same everywhere. Now. The only change that apparently they're
going to make is that when you're watching the game
on TV, a lot of times they would show where

(31:48):
the ball crossed the strike zone in real time on
those hairlines of the strike zone. That ain't happening anymore.
You know, in real time you're not going to see that.
So if you're watching the game, you will have to
decide yourself whether that pitch should be challenged or not.
It's not going to be obvious, like you could see
a dot on the strike zone in or out. He

(32:08):
should challenge that because obviously that's out there.

Speaker 2 (32:11):
In real time.

Speaker 1 (32:13):
You've got issues in terms of what people are looking
at in the ballpark and especially around the.

Speaker 2 (32:18):
Clubhouse in the dugout.

Speaker 1 (32:19):
So, at least as a fan, though, when you see
the strike zone on your television screen or on your
iPad whatever, it's going to be the official strike zone.

Speaker 4 (32:28):
This is a shift in strategy, a strategical shift. This
is a part of strategy now when to utilize the
challenge or not.

Speaker 3 (32:37):
And now the fans are going to.

Speaker 4 (32:39):
Be even another reason to be more involved in a
new version of baseball strategy regarding calling, whether you think
it's a ball or a strike, situation safer out on
the basis, all the the shifts and strategy have become
more technical, technically involved as opposed to baseball involved. You know,

(33:00):
again what you as the subtraction or of strategy based.

Speaker 3 (33:05):
On role changes.

Speaker 4 (33:06):
Run around you know, run around second base, extra innings,
three batter minimum, the number of throwers over throw overs
the first base, these kind of things that have limited
strategy and have really again kind of leveled playing fields
based on experience of people having been in the game
from a period of time, whereas they could see things

(33:28):
that maybe others cannot. So we're we're from a from
I'm trying to figure this out, as I'm talking about
from a fans perspective, an observer's perspective, we're going to
be more interested in calling balls and strikes now than
actual game strategy. But part of it is the game
strategy has been ameliorated in a sense, it's been lightened.
It's it's like baseball light strategy wise, first with the

(33:51):
elimination of the nationally game and then the elimination of
different strategies within the game. So we're becoming we're becoming
more obviously more tech involved as opposed to human strategy
involved in the ebb and flow of the game. I mean,
just that just tipped me as you're talking about it,
when you said that the fans are going to be
really paying attention to the strike zone.

Speaker 3 (34:13):
I think they are.

Speaker 4 (34:14):
Their interest level is going to be more in tune
to that than you know, watching a beautifully executed relay
or whatever.

Speaker 2 (34:20):
Well, ye, one hundred percent, right, Joe.

Speaker 1 (34:22):
I mean I can see fans in the stands yelling challenge, challenge, challenge, right, Yeah,
that's going to be mean, just eyeballing it from the stands.
Everybody thinks there's an they're an umpire from the third
deck of a stadium.

Speaker 2 (34:33):
I get it. Uh, And what does it mean for
a manager? What does it mean for somebody like Aaron Boone.

Speaker 1 (34:38):
Who's gotten on umpires after like three pitches have been
called in a game. Well, you have a redress here.
You can challenge if you want. If you think I'm
that bad, challenge these pitches. Is Aaron Boone going to
be riding umpires in the same way?

Speaker 3 (34:50):
But is it good?

Speaker 4 (34:51):
Because again, you're talking about the elimination of emotion. That's
that's what I've always argued again.

Speaker 2 (34:55):
Yeah, that's another question.

Speaker 1 (34:57):
Absolutely, the more heavy we get into technology, the more
you take out the human moment and emotion.

Speaker 2 (35:03):
There's no question about that.

Speaker 1 (35:05):
But the technology has advanced so far that baseball and
society in general feels like we can't stop it. You know,
this is coming anyway, so we have to find a
way to, if not embrace it, at least deploy it.
But you're right, there's always a cost. The more we
go down the road of technology.

Speaker 4 (35:25):
Yeah, the more we seek perfection based on the fact
that we are so imperfect, so we're seeking perfection in
other ways.

Speaker 3 (35:32):
I mean, perfection.

Speaker 4 (35:32):
Always was to practice field right physically and then the
practice field mentally, coming up with your own process and
programs internally in order to replicate your swing, your fielding,
your release point. That was perfection was that it was
the ability to recreate movement. Talking about golf, how horrible

(35:56):
golf my driver's swing is. Some days it's great, some
days it's horrible. It's the inability to recreate that. But
we rely that we have all these different golf taking
all these other things we want to go to and
have a machine correct us.

Speaker 3 (36:08):
Is that good? Maybe I don't know.

Speaker 4 (36:10):
But there's this constant shift or seeking or searching for perfection.
And I've always I told you years. I used to
sit next to Troy Gloss on a tough day and
I would tell him, Troy, perfection is a boring concept.
And I will also tell him it only takes one

(36:31):
at bat to have a great night on those nights
that were very difficult for him. So I don't know
that I have to be convinced this constant searching for
technological perfection is that actually a better method and attitude
for us to pursue as opposed to us on an
individual basis, just through work, effort, brain power, cunting, whatever

(36:54):
you want to call it, seeking our own personal perfection.

Speaker 3 (36:58):
That's where I got I think that's where I get
confused or upset because I think.

Speaker 4 (37:04):
My whole career, my whole life, has been the fact
that if I work harder than Tom Verducci and I
see things a little bit more clearly than Tom does,
I might have an edge on him in the game
where today these talk about blurred lines because nobody's even
going there anymore, because all the methods, all the information
is homogenized. Everybody's working from the same sheet of music.

(37:27):
So again, I do believe perfection is a boring concept.

Speaker 1 (37:32):
Well like it or not, we have a perfectly defined
strike zone now and we'll see how that plays out
in twenty twenty six.

Speaker 2 (37:40):
I'm going to take a quick break, Joe.

Speaker 1 (37:41):
I spent a lot of time in the Dodgers camp
out in Bendel, Arizona.

Speaker 2 (37:45):
Fascinating to see how deep this team is with pitching.

Speaker 1 (37:50):
I'm going to talk about the Dodgers and their deep,
deep roster of pitchers right after this on the.

Speaker 2 (37:55):
Book of Joe. Welcome back to the Book of Joe.
It's uh. I don't know about you, Joe.

Speaker 1 (38:12):
One of my favorite parts of spring training is to
go to the bullpen mounts and watch guys throw their bullpens.
You know, the Dodgers have a ten pack of mounds,
and not that they fill every mound, but you'll see
four or five guys thrown at the same time.

Speaker 2 (38:27):
First of all, if you stand up close to.

Speaker 1 (38:28):
Major leaguers as they're throwing bullpen sessions and that many
of them, you wonder how anybody ever gets a hit?
It is just remarkable, especially you know, first time on
the mound in spring training. Guys have been thrown off
a mountd for you know, a week or two before
they get there. I mean, they are almost that mid
season form when spring training starts.

Speaker 2 (38:48):
They never used to be that way.

Speaker 1 (38:50):
But anyway, I'm watching the Dodgers throw, and you know,
Otani's out there as purposeful as ever.

Speaker 2 (38:56):
Watching him throw a bullpen man, there is no wasted motion.
You know, he takes his time.

Speaker 1 (39:01):
He actually, if you had a pitch timer, he probably
would the fifteen or twenty seconds. He wants to know
the spin rates and the spin axis on all the pitches.
Just a craftsman at work watching him throw. A couple
of things stood out to me, though we know that
to me, they're gonna slow play show hey, because he's
not pitching in the WBC, He's gonna start throwing live vps.

(39:25):
He's gonna throw while he goes over to Team Japan
and serves as their DH and you know, obviously keep
his throwing program up, but he might not be in
the opening day rotation. Listen, you're gonna get about twenty
three starts at his showway in the course of the season.
There's no reason why you have to force it in
from day one to this season. So he's fine, he's

(39:48):
gonna throw one hundred and sixty innings twenty three starts.
I wouldn't worry about it, but I wouldn't be surprised
if he doesn't start. Literally the first series of the season,
Blake Snell slow played. As Scott Boris told me, he's
a trophy pitcher. In other words, you want him at
the end of the year. You don't want him for
two hundred innings. He ain't gonna come close to that.

(40:09):
But if you want to win a championship and maybe
the Cy young for him with one hundred and sixty innings,
he's your guy.

Speaker 2 (40:15):
But here's what stood out to me, Joe.

Speaker 1 (40:17):
You forgot about guys like River Ryan Gavin Stone, who
actually led their staff and innings a couple of years ago.
These guys were just throwing the tar out of the
baseball And then there's Roki Sasaki. People forget Roki Sasaki
could be one of the best pitchers in the world.
This guy is throwing ninety eight in his first time
on the mound. He's got a nasty split that actually

(40:41):
goes any which way. He can cut it, sink it,
run it. And this year the Dodgers have added cutter
and a two seamer to Sasaki. Now, the foundation of
his pitching is always going to be the four seam
fastball and the split just a deadly accommodation.

Speaker 2 (40:57):
But the way the world is now, you need to
at least show some other pitches.

Speaker 1 (41:01):
And the cutter actually is a pitch they like him
to throw now again, and it's not just lefties getting
in on their hands, but the right handed hitters as well.
So if Roki Sasaki can stretch the width of the
plate a little bit, because he works primarily up and down,
and this guy's stuff is just nasty. I mean, they
have like five potential number one starters on that step

(41:24):
and that's not even talking about the emmit Chians and
the Ben Kasparius is the world. As Andrew Friedman told me, Joe,
this is the most pitching depth he has ever had
in his major league career, and I saw on the
mound it is outstanding.

Speaker 3 (41:38):
Yeah, all the above.

Speaker 4 (41:41):
We try to get that done here with the Rays
back in the day, and we were pretty good different
speing at that time. Our intention at that time we
didn't have we had good arms, and not necessarily the
depth of those arms there. But I was always I
had always challenged our starters to throw a thousand innings.
That wasn't just five guys. It might have been seven,
might have been eight guys. But if our starters threw

(42:03):
a thousand innings in pretty good shape, that's really, like
you just suggested, that's not a part of the landscape anymore.
Part of it is the depth, and part of it
is the depth has been created through really good scouting
techniques plus cash, so they got those things going on.
So yes, intentional show, Hey, absolutely slow playing, there's no question,

(42:23):
there's no reason to not do that, and that's absolutely
what's going to happen. And then you talk about guys
like SNeW I mean, of course that's going to.

Speaker 3 (42:30):
Dovetail be part of that.

Speaker 4 (42:31):
Maybe not as much as show, but absolutely A Scott said,
being a trophy pitcher in today's game and how.

Speaker 3 (42:38):
It's set up.

Speaker 4 (42:40):
So that's absolutely probably what's gonna happen. And then you
describe the players. Now, while you're saying all this, it
also meant me this would be part of my messaging
with the Padres, the giants, et cetera.

Speaker 3 (42:52):
I mean, you really number one.

Speaker 4 (42:55):
I think the one thing I would harp on as
much as anything which they did anyway, but this would
even be maybe more prominent now, is to get off
the good start. You got to beat these guys early.
Beat them early. Because they're they're coming off of two
in a row. There's going to be this this protectionism
going on because they're playing with house money. Getting three

(43:16):
would be great, three peat us wonderful, But you know,
playing the long game, which they will do, they're not
going to push guys necessarily, so I think the fact
that they want to and if they start presenting that
they're going.

Speaker 3 (43:28):
To hold people back.

Speaker 4 (43:30):
Man, I mean out put the pedal to the metal
regarding we got to get off to a good start.
Let's get on these guys early, and whenever we get
an opportunity to beat them, beat them earlier in the season,
because they should get better season in progress, and furthermore,
just in general terms, we have to get out of
the gates early and well in order to be competitive
this year. That would be like probably the number one

(43:52):
thing to talk about. I know a lot of guys do,
but I was really big on that. I mean with
the Rais and we ascend it in two thousand and
eight because we had two seven game losing streaks that
year going to the World Series. But we got we
got good, we got out really good. And it's a
difference maker. So just look into all these different like
this is conversation. This is this segment right here to
me would fuel the other if I'm working with another team.

Speaker 3 (44:15):
This is really our schematic. This is what we got
to do, and we can't absolutely can do this.

Speaker 4 (44:19):
You got to ambush these people early and often, and
you can't take your foot off the pedal, and you
got to start creating this believability and what we can
and cannot do here. And this is like what Henry
Ford once said, if you think you can, you can,
and if you think you can't, you cannot. I think
that was a Henry Ford isn't back in the early
nineteen hundreds, and that's exactly the attitude they have to adopt.

Speaker 2 (44:40):
Yeah, I love that thinking.

Speaker 1 (44:41):
I had not thought about that, But as everybody wants
to get up to a good start, we all know that.
But even more important, I think to make that an issue,
you know, a topic for a team and just sort
of doubling down on it, like, let's get after this
right away and not ease into the season. Because I
think you're right. We've seen it with most defending champions.
They do tend to start slower. Some of that is

(45:03):
just the where or terror of playing for that seventh month.
So yeah, I'm all about that. By the way, when
I mentioned all these pitchers and the depth the Dodgers have,
they use their depth. They've basically rewritten the rules of
the game, partly because of signing people like Otani and
Yamamoto at Sasaki who are used to that once a

(45:24):
week pitching schedule in Japan.

Speaker 2 (45:26):
I looked at this, Joe.

Speaker 1 (45:27):
The last three years twenty twenty three through twenty twenty five,
the fewest starts on four days rest. Now we have
to change our minds because that used to be normal rest.
Right started going on the fifth day. Most starts now
have five days or rest of rest, or more so
normal rest. That four days is like short rest now.

(45:48):
So the fewest starts on four days of rest in
the past three years by far, the Los Angeles Dodgers
only sixty four. The next fewest the Houston Astros, at
ninety six. The median is one hundred fifty seven. So like,
no one is close to the Dodgers as far as

(46:09):
giving their starters extra rest and listen, you need the
depth to do that. Right There's a lot of teams
struggling to find a fifth starter right now. The Dodgers
have about eight, nine or ten of them who could
start in any rotation right now. So this is kind
of where the resources and the depth of the Dodgers
really shows up in that they can afford to give

(46:34):
pitchers five, six, even seven days of rest between starts
and when you're planning on playing that seventh month man,
that's huge.

Speaker 4 (46:42):
Well, that was part of the landscape the last years
with the Angels, this last managerial stint, my motto was
it's easier to find a six man rotation that you like.
It'd be easier to find six men than five.

Speaker 3 (46:57):
And the point was with five, the threat of injury
was there.

Speaker 4 (47:02):
The thread of five was at these guys weren't used
to pitching that many innings with that little rest without
getting injured. It's just not part of the way the
baseball pitching world works right now. So I thought, let's
find a six man rotation with the built in extra day,
which then should permit you to be more comfortable with
letting guys pitch more deeply in the games, just normally,

(47:25):
like you know, the third man, third time through. Hopefully
that would become a thing of the past. You teach
guys to get through that. Throwing one hundred and ten
hundred and fifteen pitches not a big deal. They always
have an extra day, and if there's a day off,
they might have an extra two days off. And then
with the ascension of you said of the Asian pitcher,
the Japanese pitcher, these guys are used to a different
training schedule. We had showhy at that particular moment, and

(47:45):
of course, like you mentioned, there's others, and especially the
Dodgers right now. So we went from four men back
in the day, which was the way to go, and
these guys through two hundred plus innings. It's up to
three hundred innings, sometimes with a bunch of strikeouts. And
then we got to the five man rotation. I remember
every spring training people would agonize on the fifth starter
who would that be, and sometimes the fourth and the

(48:07):
fifth starter, just to try to find that was really
a pain in the butt.

Speaker 3 (48:11):
So at some point is it easier to find six.

Speaker 4 (48:14):
Again because more rest in between, less opportunity to get injured,
more comfort regarding having them throw more pitches than normal
based on the fact that they're not going to be
back on the mount as soon. I think that's what
it's evolved into, and the Dodgers have really taken this
to an art form. In order to do that, you
have to have guys that you like. This happened with

(48:35):
the Rays.

Speaker 3 (48:36):
Can't remember the exact year was.

Speaker 4 (48:37):
It might have been a World Series art or maybe
right after that, but Alex Cobb was ascending. Who's one
of my favorite all time pitchers that I've ever had.
So Cobra was doing great, but we chose to pop
him in as a sixth man post for All Star
Break and it was great because Cobbra came in, we
broke Cobber in, He's given a regular rotation or rest.
All of a sudden, it was six. These guys felt

(48:58):
great and it helped us all the way into September.
So we actually worked a kind of a truncated six
man back in the day based on the fact we
had such a wonderful pitcher like him, that Maddie Moore.

Speaker 3 (49:10):
There's another example of that.

Speaker 4 (49:12):
Jeremy Hellixen came along, Jeff Neemon. I mean, really, I
know Andrew's saying and it's it's probably true. But back
in there, man, we also had like Jeff McGee, we
had Davis. We had all these guys piled up, and
then you had Shields, Kasmer, et cetera, David Price. It
was really it's not unlike what he's talking about or

(49:32):
seeing right now. So this is something we had done
back then and it was very successful, and I think
that's going into a season like this Padres Giants, I
would have to believe I got to have six coming
out of the out of camp and then really understanding
how to utilize this just how they do that, I
mean they being the Dodgers, that would be the way

(49:53):
of the world today, based on injuries and discomfort with
pitch numbers and the third time to the batting order.

Speaker 2 (50:00):
And by the way, that is such a medanism. It
deserves to be on a T shirt. It's easier to
find six than five.

Speaker 3 (50:06):
Right it is. I mean, I in today's world, it is.

Speaker 1 (50:10):
Well, we'll get to your thought of the day in
a moment. But first I wanted to acknowledge we lost
a great actor. Yeah, right, did you see Robert Wall
passed away? How about this Joe in nineteen fifty five
at the Neighborhood Playhouse, an acting school in New York.
He was there in nineteen fifty five in New York,
as were Dustin Hoffman and Gene Hackman. How about that

(50:34):
Dustin Hoffman, Gene Hackman, Robert Duvall in the same essentially
class at an acting school in New York.

Speaker 4 (50:40):
Yeah, I mean did he ended up being a roommate
with was with Hoffman or Paccino? He was in roommate
with somebody eventually? I think I read about that today too.
He's in arguably some of the best movies ever made.
I mean The Godfather, Tom Hagen there and then Apocalypse.
Now he loves the smell of napalm in the morning
as he's kneeling there with no shirt on, or like
in the Catcher's Squat. He's had some of the greatest

(51:03):
moments and lines, and one of my favorites he played
in the great Santini Pat Conroy's book. I mean, yes that,
I mean I've often talked about this. I just did
a small gig down here at the Saint Pete Country
Club and whatever reason I ventured into Pat conroy territory
and how he's my favorite author of all time. And
then of course Tom Berducci. But you know, the character

(51:25):
of the bull in that particular book and movie is spectacular.

Speaker 3 (51:29):
He did a great job with that.

Speaker 4 (51:30):
So yes, it's a great loss ninety five or ninety
six whatever, But my god, a very simple approach to
what he did.

Speaker 3 (51:37):
He was like, I think what we saw on the
screen is actually who he was. I don't think he
was really acting. This guy.

Speaker 2 (51:43):
Yeah, more to range.

Speaker 1 (51:45):
I mean, he can play anything and just and just
bring it to an incredible height.

Speaker 2 (51:51):
I mean, this is what he once said.

Speaker 1 (51:53):
I just want to run this by you, Joe, because
he he was not your traditional Hollywood leading man, right,
but it was like he had a leading man's career
when you think about the roles that he had, as
you mentioned, the films are just unforg gettable, and he
was an unforgettable actor.

Speaker 2 (52:07):
He said.

Speaker 1 (52:07):
Somebody once said that the best life of the world
is the life of a second leading man. You travel,
you get a per diem, and you probably got a
better part anyway, And you don't have.

Speaker 2 (52:19):
The weight of the entire movie on your shoulders. I
wonder if he really believed that he's.

Speaker 3 (52:25):
A backup quarterback.

Speaker 4 (52:28):
He probably loved all those backup quarterback commercials when it
was a progressive whatever's going on these days and they
step in there and they nurture the child. Yeah, I
mean throw of the backup QB, the backup leading man.
That's exactly what he was. And there's no question about that.

Speaker 3 (52:43):
But he did.

Speaker 4 (52:44):
He He was a force multiplier. He always added to
everything that he did. And never got a chance to
meet him, but always a big fan and The Godfather.
Anybody ever asked what is your favorite movie of all time?

Speaker 3 (52:55):
Would be that.

Speaker 4 (52:56):
And I got to meet mister Coppola in my office
with his wife Eleanor in Chicago one time, and I
actually was standing there having a conversation with Francis port
Copeland his wife Eleanor.

Speaker 3 (53:07):
You're thinking to yourself, how does this happen?

Speaker 4 (53:10):
Kid from Eleventh Street, you know, played for Unuko Heeslton
High School Mountain here and I'm standing here with the
dude that put together The Godfather and another passing Jesse Jackson.
Just happened Also and Jesse used to come down and
talk to me at Wrigley. He'd be in the ballpark,
he'd come down by the dugout. We'd have like a

(53:30):
fifteen to twenty minute conversation. And again I'm standing there. Yeah,
I just think a Chicago fan, I might. Yeah, it's
like you got to like, really, you know this, whether
you agree with the.

Speaker 3 (53:42):
Political stance or not.

Speaker 4 (53:43):
Very interesting guy. And he was there when doctor King
was shot. I mean this is like, you know, you
talk about history, so that being the manager of the
Cubs had its other other worldly perks that it really
was fortunate to be able to take part in.

Speaker 1 (53:59):
Well, we enjoy the perks that you bring him to
us in terms of your thoughts of the day.

Speaker 2 (54:03):
What do you got for us today, Joe?

Speaker 4 (54:05):
I saw a clip of John Schneider with his opening
remarks to his players, which you know, that's today's world
having that video, and I'd never really wanted that. I
remember when I was the manager of the two thousand
and nine All Star team in Saint Louis, they wanted
to come in while I was addressing the team.

Speaker 3 (54:21):
I didn't want him to do that. There's certain things
that I just think I don't know, it's an overreach
and we're just getting too too much, too deeply involved.
I maybe some fans would disagree with me, but I
mean it's just so personal.

Speaker 4 (54:37):
Anyhow, it led me to this, the opening statement you
have with your team, and how much I really took
that to heart, trying to set the standard or the
goal or the dialogue or the narrative for the season.
And so I just came up with two today because
they both I think held true to me. So when
you do that Hemingway's one true sentence, that's not it.

(54:58):
But Hemingway, as he said at the Typewriters, he's writing
his new novel and sometimes he gets stuck. His thought
to him self was right, one true sentence, the truest
sentence that I know that everything would become on lodge
at that point, which I really I utilize at times
even to today. But speak your heart. They don't understand.
The message was never meant for them anyway, So you're

(55:18):
just really trying. There's always gonna be My point was,
there's always gonna be some in the in the audience
here that I mean just don't get it, don't care,
don't understand. But you got to get to the majority somehow,
and then this way the dovetails into it. Honestly, if
everyone likes what you but you say if every if
everyone likes what you say, something is wrong with your message.

Speaker 3 (55:40):
And that's what you have to understand too. There's gonna
be dissenters.

Speaker 4 (55:43):
Always if you always, and I think as a humans
we always focus on the dissenters and not the acceptors,
right and and and the dissenters are gonna be away.
That's gonna be like the largest minority ever. But the
squeaky wheel gets the most grease. And sometimes we we
give that we apply too much attention to the to

(56:03):
this we wheels. And I'm here to say, don't do that.
You know, right, the one true sentence speak, the one
true sentence. This is what you're paid to do. And
I think that's watching John today, I think that's what
he was doing. So that's that was always this time
of the year meant to me. And last point, I
always had Kenny Rivisa. Kenny's no longer with this, but

(56:24):
I would always run it by Kenny what the message
was for the year. I wanted his honest opinion, and
then he would we would go to Long Beach State
and go to blair Field and I would address a
lot the dirt bags. I went to his class at
cal State Fullerton with one of his classes, and I
would run it by the class or the group, just
like a little practice session.

Speaker 3 (56:43):
Was that important to me?

Speaker 2 (56:44):
Yeah, it's one of the great moments. I think you
know this well, Joe.

Speaker 1 (56:47):
There's eight managers who are new to their teams this year,
and that first time you addressed the group, the entire group,
not just the pitchers and the catchers, but full squad
work out. That's just an unforgettable moment, especially guys who
are doing it for the first time ever. And a
lot of that happening around Arizona and Florida this week.
I'm sure you can relate to that.

Speaker 3 (57:10):
Joe's staunting. It's daunting. I thought it was.

Speaker 4 (57:13):
I mean, I remember the first one was down at
Saint Pete at al lank Field, which is absolute. I
think it's one of the cathedrals in baseball as far
as I'm concerned.

Speaker 3 (57:23):
It's right now. It's a soccer field, I think.

Speaker 4 (57:25):
But actually hitchhike to go see the Mets and the
Cardinals there in nineteen seventy three when I was down
here at Lafayette.

Speaker 3 (57:31):
I mean, it was that important to me to do
it at that field.

Speaker 4 (57:34):
But I'm here to tell you man, I'd lay awake
and and I'd go to the ballpark all kind of
nervous and stuff. And you do have this, right, Am
I going to really be able to pull this off
the way I want to? And the best feeling is
after you get done with something like this, that you
could say to yourself, I didn't forget anything. I included
everything I wanted to say, and I said it the

(57:54):
way I wanted to.

Speaker 3 (57:55):
That if you could walk away from that moment like that,
that's pretty.

Speaker 2 (57:58):
Cool, awesome stuff. Joe, We'll see you next time on
the Book of Joe.

Speaker 3 (58:02):
Thanks brother, to see you soon.

Speaker 1 (58:03):
But The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.
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