May 26, 2026 • 52 mins
Joe Maddon and Tom Verducci look at hitting in May and an unexpected result from the addition of the pitch clock. Tom gives his thoughts on 'combined' no-hitters and different ways the feat can happen. Meanwhile, Joe explains what he's seeing with Kyle Schwarber. We hear the latest example of 'analytics' gone too far. Plus, how about players try something new and different?
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
The Book of Joe Podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Hey Aaron, welcome back. It's the Book of Joe Podcast.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
It's me Tom Berducci and Joe Madden. Joe, we just passed,
as you know, Memorial Day weekend. It's kind of like
a turning point not just for the summer, but the
baseball season. We basically have if you can believe this
one third of this season in the books.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
How's your season going?
Speaker 3 (00:38):
The growing season hasn't begun yet.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Farmer Joe, tell us about your farm.
Speaker 4 (00:43):
Yeah, I mean, I'm really getting into the vegetable stuff
right now. But recently purchased a lot of house with
a really large backyard, if you want to call it that,
and so had to get an actual tractor to cut
the grass. You couldn't just do it the lawnmower. And
I'm loving it. I cut the grass through out of
four days in anticipation of the ring. I didn't want
(01:03):
to have to like cut this really high wet grass
that's done. Bought a tiller because just as a trying
to take it to the next level of gardening and
just trying to get some till, some soil, plant some seeds,
actually in the ground, not raised beds, that kind of stuff,
just fun things. And we were just talking before we started,
and I understand why farmers are so tired at the
(01:24):
end of the day. They come home and probably in sleep,
sleep by eight o'clock at night. You get up so early,
and then they work so hard all day. But it's
been fun. It's a nice way to park it, you know.
I think we talked about it last week, just to
park the brain, right. Spoke to that about somebody parking
your mind in an activity that you really enjoy it.
It's almost borderline passionate if it's not. And the parking
(01:47):
of the brain is really a good way to exist.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
It's your version of a zen garden. I guess that's correct.
Speaker 4 (01:52):
That's another way to put It's a tomato garden zen
garden save thing.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
This time of year, I like to kind of take
stock of where we are a couple of interesting trends
for you, and i'd love to get your reaction.
Speaker 3 (02:03):
Here.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
I'm looking at the Major League batting average in the
month of May, as you know, every April. You know,
people like to save pitchers are ahead of the hitters.
They talk about how the weather isn't great, you know,
and hitting is gonna come around as the weather warms up.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Well, the batting average in Major.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
League Baseball in April was two forty three. In May
it was two thirty five. Now, how bad is that?
That is the third lowest batting average in the month
of May in the history of baseball. The only two
Mays where the batting average was worse nineteen sixty eight.
That's like when baseball bottomed out offensively, right, they had
(02:41):
to start, you know, adding a DH, lowering the mound,
all these things to get more offense back in the game.
And the other year was nineteen oh eight, which is
smack dab in the middle of the dead ball era.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
That is amazing to me.
Speaker 1 (02:54):
The overall batting average this year is two thirty nine
from a similar point last year.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
That's down five points.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
I don't know if this is caught your attention, Joe,
but you know, looking around the game, the games that
I'm at, you just don't see a lot of hits.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
I mean, it is a pitcher's game right now.
Speaker 4 (03:14):
Okay, you kind of alluded to this recently, and okay,
it's two forty three.
Speaker 3 (03:19):
I know, when I was a young scout.
Speaker 4 (03:22):
We were able to give a fifty grade on our
scout and report present and or future if we thought
the guy could hit.
Speaker 3 (03:31):
I think it was right around two fifty five or
two sixty.
Speaker 4 (03:33):
I think that's what we considered in that general ballpark.
What was an average major league hitter? That was it,
And of course you get the eighty grade. That was
the highest grade you can give for the guy that
would hit you thought would hit like maybe three hundred
or better, you know, like the seven hit it up
into the high two nineties. That kind of a thing,
and those are becoming fewer and way far between.
Speaker 3 (03:54):
Now.
Speaker 4 (03:54):
I'm just just writing some notes and as we were
talking about this, and there's got to be several reasons
I would have guessed, and they're all interconnected.
Speaker 3 (04:03):
I think.
Speaker 4 (04:03):
In all carry different weight regarding why it's come down.
And you could say better pitching in regards to more velocity.
You could talk about the shape of the pitches, those
kinds of things. But make god, if you watch old videos,
there's some dudes with some good stuff and good pitch shape,
there's no shift and the batting averages come down. So
that's kind of interesting to me. Also, when you break
(04:25):
down this batting average. I'd left to see righty's and
lefties like the left haended batting averages, have they progressed
or remained the same, or even regressed. And then the
same thing with writings that I would look at it
in two different ways. Defensive metrics, you know where you
start your defenders on defense that continually has gotten really
(04:45):
you know, obviously better.
Speaker 3 (04:46):
And everybody's doing it now.
Speaker 4 (04:47):
I mean, when when the race started in two thousand
and eight, we were into it, nobody everybody laughed at
us the some of the things we did. And now
again it's a homogenized version of baseball. There's everybody's doing
the same things all the time, all working off the
same sheet of music, all the same information. And I
think that's why the a lot of five hundred stuff
going on too. But the defensive metrics have something to
(05:08):
do with that, because my line was we catch line drives.
I wanted to be closer or one of our defenders
to be closer where heart hit balls occurred, you know,
according to this our maps versus this with this hitter
and sometimes specifically against the pitchers, and that picture. And
then also philosophically, what are we teaching, and what are
(05:29):
the what are the what are the what's what's the
desired result? Right here is contact? A desired result is
two strike approach desired. His opposite field desired is uh
the b hacker again the two strike approach are we
are you willing to curtail cut down some how your
swing as account got deeper, or you're supposed to just
keep it full throttle the whole all the way through.
(05:51):
So I think there's a variety of different reasons why,
But I philosophically.
Speaker 3 (05:56):
I would really just start there.
Speaker 4 (05:58):
Pitching, Yeah, it's good, no shift, okay, that should be
make that batting average, this higher metrics is nothing you
can do about that. They're here to stay. But philosophically
teaching again, I still think that has something to do
with it. The method's being employed. Hitters just like one
size fits all kind of a mentality, and there's no
real adaptations made during the yet bat it's just like
(06:23):
ful gorilla.
Speaker 3 (06:24):
Here we go.
Speaker 4 (06:24):
So I'm just those are the things that come to
my mind why this might be where it's at. So curious,
anything more deep that you have on.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
That, Yeah, I've gotten deep into this. I do agree
to some extent this is about hitting. There still is
an emphasis on getting the ball in the air, especially
pole side power. Getting the ball in the air and
you're going to be prone to swing and miss, and
not only that if you don't catch it right. The
batting average on balls in the air is extremely low,
(06:56):
especially now that outfield to play so deep. It's hard
to get a ball in the gap in the air.
It's got to be a line drive. That's part of it.
I think the biggest driver of this is really is
the way pitching has evolved with pitch shaping.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
Yes, velocity is up, but they're throwing fewer fastballs.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
And it's interesting that this is all happening, Joe in
the first year of ABS. Hitting has gone down in
the first year of ABS. And there was a thought
that ABS would force pitchers into the middle of the
strike zone, that the strike zone now being clearly defined,
you couldn't. As a lot of pitchers did stretch the
strike zone and get some calls and the pitch framing
(07:34):
and all that, we're seeing the exact opposite, where pitchers
now are keeping the ball on the edges of the
strike zone better than ever, with a variety of pitchers.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
To me, there's too much now for a hitter to cover.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
And just as an example, you know now there's really
no such thing as a fastball count, right. Maybe it's
three to zero, maybe, but you're seeing spin it off
speed in any kind of count.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
Fastballs down the middle.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
We're essentially talking about challenge fastballs. They're at the lowest
point since we've been tracking pitches. That's nineteen seasons, with
a big drop in the last ten years. It's down
thirteen percent. Hitters are not seeing fastballs over the plate.
The challenge fastball is essentially dead, and I think that's
(08:24):
got a lot to do it.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
And the other thing, and this again.
Speaker 1 (08:27):
Dovetails with all the pitch shaping and the lack of
just those challenge fastballs. If you were a hitter ten
years ago, you could classify a lot of pitchers as
a sinker slider guy, as a high four seam, high
vert guy.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
Guys had certain profiles.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
Now everybody, it seems, is moving the ball four different
ways in all quadrants of the zone.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
And this really struck me.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
Joe looking at batting average according to age right, it's
the first time I think this has ever happened where
there was a direct correlation. The older you are, the
worst you hit. If you go back ten years, the
highest batting average was by guys in the thirty one
to thirty five slot. Now you're starting to combine the
(09:15):
experience of hitting and you still have some skills. The
worst was the younger guys because you got to the
major leagues and you're seeing stuff you.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
Never saw before. It's the exact opposite.
Speaker 1 (09:25):
Now, batting average on players twenty five and under is
two forty two. From twenty six to thirty it goes
down to two forty one. From thirty one to thirty
five it goes down to two thirty three. That's the
lowest in the history of the game for that age group.
And then thirty six and above you're down to two
(09:46):
twenty six. The game is squeezing out those guys, the
thirty six plus guys. It's that they've been cut in
half just in the last ten years and the amount
of plate appearances they get.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
So to sum up for you.
Speaker 1 (10:01):
The batting average for younger the young LONGUS players is
the highest, and it gets worse as the players age.
I think the game has changed on these thirty something
hitters where they're seeing stuff they never saw before, whereas
the younger guys, younger, maybe faster twitch, are able to
react more to what's happening in the game.
Speaker 4 (10:21):
It's a lot of logical stuff. Okay, back to the
batting average. Rick Down a very good hitting instructor no
longer with us. Ricus used to always talk about we
did we tried not to teach hitting fly balls. We
thought ground balls and hard ground balls and line drives
was where it was at. Because that's aid a moment
in time when we you know, batting average was considered
(10:43):
kind of a benchmark to a good hitter, whereas today
it's not necessarily considered as much.
Speaker 3 (10:48):
But that was the mantra back then to.
Speaker 4 (10:51):
Do that, And I mean I talk about that continually
as a hitting coach. You know, sta out of the
air because you know you're talking about it. Unless the
guy's an extreme power then you didn't say anything. But
the most part, we didn't have as many, you know,
guys coming up through the minor leagues coming up to
your big league club. There was the guys that could
put the ball on air, hit it out, and there's
(11:12):
others that you just didn't want to put have the
ball put in the air. But the overarching philosophy was
line drives, hard ground balls, fly balls, areroutes, just like
you said, but everything that that also speaks to adjustments.
If everything's happening on the edges, it's almost like the
definition of insanity. Why do I just keep coming on
glue trying to lift the ball up. I'm not going
(11:33):
to get the pitch I can hit with more consistency.
Home Runs are thrown by the pitchers more than they're
hit by the hitter. And again, you will react if
you have pop, you're strong, you've got a good hack.
Look at Aaron Judge if they make a mistake in
the area that you like and you could really drive
the ball. The secret is not the filed off not
to take it. They hit it hard and keep it fair.
(11:55):
But if you're going to have like just say, the
guys hit had twenty five home runs a year and
they're considered really you know, powerful, lead as good hitters
in that regard, But how about the the six hundred
plate appearances they get and what do they do with those?
That's always been my bone of contention. I want the
twenty five homers, yeah, but I want better overall at bass,
how many times you get into a two strike count
(12:15):
and don't change anything. How many times you step in
the box and you don't feel really good, just in
a bad moment, you're not seeing the ball well, and
you keep trying to do the same thing without any
kind of adjustments or just two strikes. I left on left,
if you're going to play left on left, my left.
If you're trying to teach a young hitter to be
a left on left guy, I would ask them to
go to their b hack with one strike, not with
(12:36):
two strikes. As an example. I mean, there's adjustments to
be made in order to move the ball more consistently
and hopefully, you know, grab a couple more knocks right there,
or just frustrate the pitchers see a lot of pitches,
fall off pitches and get to potentially a walk is
also obviously a very good thing. So all these things
are as you're talking, these are all the things that
are coming to my head. And then when it talks
(12:58):
about the older player, Okay, how many guys are actually
older playing now compared to the past, I mean, does
it have anything to do with the amount of money
being made? Like I'm talking about better players. Better players
who have made a lot of dough do they really
want to play in an advanced stage? Are there less
better players playing at an advanced age today than there
had been years ago when the money made during the
(13:19):
season was still really important to players as opposed to
now a lot of these guys you were playing into
a significant age, You've probably made a lot of dough
by now. So these I think, all these different things
come to my head as you're talking about it. But
for me, this all speaks to philosophical making adjustments. If
I'm not seeing my pitch, what do I keep trying
to hit a ball out of a ballpark that I
(13:41):
cannot the pitcher's not permitting it right now? And that's
where I would start. And again this is we talk
minor leagues. This has got to start there, man, it
this doesn't start on a big league level. It's hard
to get a guide in the major leagues. And all
of a sudden, notice this is being deficient and you
want to make these kind of changes. Hard to do,
really hard to do. This guy just trying to survive.
(14:03):
He can be a level guy. He's just trying to
stay in the big leagues. He hasn't arrived at the
point he belongs to he can do this. So this
is where the minor league system in general, to me,
if it was a little bit more complete, a little
bit more thick as compared to what it happened what
it is right now, you could teach these kind of things.
There's more time to but the accelerated journey of a
(14:24):
lot of these young players doesn't permit that. And again,
I guess that's when I'm getting driving. It's a myriad
of different reasons, but I would start philosophically, and you
think about the older players. I'm just curious the number
of better older players still in the game compared to
the past, just based on finances.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
Yeah, I don't think he has anything to do with finances.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
I think if you go back at generation, it began
with ped testing. I mean, it was a joke what
people were doing the late nineties, early two thousand's thirty
five plus plan like they were twenty five plus in
terms of bat speed, never taking days off peds, carrying
them through the months of August in September. It warped
(15:05):
the game, and it wasn't just home run records. It
was the older players extending their prime, so we got
rid of that, thankfully.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
That's part of it.
Speaker 1 (15:15):
And I just think because the game has changed so
much in the last ten years, especially with velocity and spin,
it's harder for the older players. I mean, you're seeing
it this year with guys like Manny Machado, Marcus Simi
and Trey Turner, and I realized there are guys every
year you can pick and choose, but in general, I
don't think there is as many good older players for
(15:36):
a lot of reasons, but essentially because if you got
to the big league ten eleven years ago, the average
fastball has gone up like two miles per hour and
you're throwing it less than ever because they're spinning it more. So,
think about how much of that game has changed, and
you got guys training off the high velocity machines now
to try to catch up with it. It's a rough
(15:56):
world for the older player. So I think that's got
something to do with it. Let me ask you, Joe
about since we're taking stock of one third of the
way through the season, if you look at three of
the last place teams, I mean, this is a story
about when good teams go bad.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
Are the Mets, the Red Sox, and the Tigers.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
And we talk about offense, the bottom five offensive teams.
Speaker 2 (16:21):
And I'll go reverse order, the last being the Giants.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
Red Sox are twenty ninth, The Tigers are twenty eighth,
the Mets are twenty sixth, and the Mets have the lowest.
Speaker 2 (16:31):
Slugging percentage in Baseball? Mets, Red Sox, Tigers.
Speaker 1 (16:36):
Can any of those teams rally to be a postseason team?
Speaker 4 (16:41):
Among those three teams? First of all, are any of
the missing key offensive components that are going to be
coming back?
Speaker 1 (16:49):
Well, Detroit's missing a lot, yeah, I mean they've had
Kerry Carpenter out, Glaber Torres out, Parker Meadows out, They've
had a bunch of injuries, the Mets obviously with Lindor,
I mean, you know story now with the Red Sox.
Speaker 4 (17:05):
So to me, the most significant team that's been hurt
by it has been the Tigers. And so among those three,
I would just say that they probably stand the best
chance if these guys do come back in a relatively
short period of time. And plus that division is not
just being run away with correct, I mean, how many
games are they back?
Speaker 3 (17:21):
I haven't even looked at that research.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
Yeah, I mean the division always to me is very forgiving, right,
so it's very it's gettable. Yet Cleveland is for real,
we know that, right, You never discount them. But Detroit
being in last place, they're ten games out behind Cleveland.
Speaker 4 (17:39):
That's tough. Yeah, that's tough. Yeah, tens a big number,
not impossible. I've done it with the Rays when we
came back in a September, almost at that particular number.
So I mean, looking at the team that's not completely
out of it would be for me, like I'm saying,
looking at those because you can't you can't rely on
acquisitions that ain't gonna happen. But if you already have
the acquisitions within the group, guys that have been injured
(18:01):
are coming back and relatively short period of time, that
would be the one that I would pin the hope on.
So among the three, like I said, Lindors is so
great player. Love Lindor, but just hot and cold kind
of a guy. The Red Sox, I just think you know,
they've they've gone through a lot of stuff right now
and they're just trying to hold on and try to
just get their salvage their season in a sense. But
(18:22):
I think Detroit having legitimate guys coming back, that would
be the group I would look at.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
I'm with you one hundred percent. I think the Tigers
still have a chance.
Speaker 1 (18:31):
It's getting remote because they've ever since Trek Scoogle went
on the IL, they've been a really bad team. And
you know, I never really love them offensively, but I
thought their pitching would carry them. The Mets and the
Red Sox both look like it ain't.
Speaker 3 (18:45):
Can I happen?
Speaker 1 (18:46):
I mean, there's just you know, the Mets just don't
have the depth, and the Red Sox I think miscast
their team. They had a team that really, to me
was not a good offensive team. When you play in
Fenway Park, you have to be able to bang the
ball a little bit, and they can't. So I'm not
sure what the future is for those two teams. Tiger's
got a shot. Let's look at the other end of
(19:06):
the spectrum, some of the surprise teams. Joe, who might
be able to hold up Cardinals, Pirates, Nationals, White Sox.
Give me one of those teams you think has the
best shot of being a postseason team.
Speaker 3 (19:22):
Like the Nationals. Those plays can hit, or.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
They can hit the ball, place can.
Speaker 4 (19:26):
Hit man, I really make sure every day to watch
the Nationals video. They got some young, serious pop. I
don't really know how good their pitching staff is, but
as a group of young offensive players and we're talking
about offense leading the way, I kind of dig on that.
Speaker 3 (19:46):
And Walker.
Speaker 4 (19:47):
I'm a big fan of Walker with the Cardinals, and
I love what he's doing. And I have a couple
of years ago I read an article about him. His
voice was heard in the article and he was struggling,
and I guess there was a lot of different suggestions
being thrown as way, and he pretty much said, you know, listen,
that's enough and I really have to narrow this down
(20:08):
and adhere to what I believe in. And I loved
when I read that, and I'm loving watching his ascension
right now. I think the White Sox. The White Sox
have some pop too. I like their Third Basement a lot.
Vargas and you know, Montgomery's come on there a little bit.
They got some interesting folks over there. But Vargas is
very interesting, he really is. And Pittsburgh, of course, I
(20:29):
just don't know if that they're going to have enough.
They got the great pitching though, and you can't you
can't discount that. But the team I really enjoy tuning
into on a morning basis is the Nationals. I never thought,
you know, never thought about it, but I saw what
would hit another home run, leadoff home rund yesterday.
Speaker 3 (20:46):
And they got some dudes.
Speaker 4 (20:48):
Man, they got and every time they turned it on,
somebody else's going deep lyle I mean, they got some
guys that and they're playing with enthusiasm. I like the
way they're playing a little bit too so. And they
got some their managers, got some Tampa Bay Devil Ray
influence in them. So there's all these little stuff going on.
So I'm gonna go with the Nationals.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
That's a good call.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
I love watching them play as well, younger group that
they hit a ton of extra base hits. They run
the base as well. They're athletic, fun team to watch.
I'm not sure if they're pitching it's gonna hold up.
It's you know, the way they hit. Their pitching just
has to be okay, it doesn't have to be great.
I'm going with the Pirates since that was my preseason
pick that they would make the postseason. A little bit concerned.
(21:29):
There's a ton of strikeouts in that lineup. But man,
I love watching that pitching staff. I mean, I know
Skeens is there, but you know, between Chandler and Ashkraft Macginski,
they're just loaded with great power arms and that is
a fastball based staff, so they're fun to watch pitch.
So that's my team there out of that surprise group. Hey,
(21:53):
let's take a quick break, jaw. There's a lot of
things I want to get to. I want to get
to no hitters. I want to get to Kyle Schwarber,
and I got to talk to you about one of
the great quotes about analytics and sports.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
It's so much fun.
Speaker 1 (22:07):
We'll talk about that right after this on the Book
of Joe.
Speaker 2 (22:23):
Welcome back to the Book of Joe.
Speaker 1 (22:25):
I don't know how you feel about no hitters, but
I cannot get enthused about combined no hitters.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
I really can't.
Speaker 1 (22:33):
I mean, it took two years to get from our
last no hitter to get one. We got it the
other night with Houston using three pitchers to no hit
the Texas Rangers, who, by the way, looked miserable offensively.
Rangers actually had four players in their lineup hitting under
two hundred. Are you kidding me? So the astro throw
(22:55):
no hitter. I started the game. He had an ERA
even after the game over six and the guy who
closed the game, Alimber Santa, was making his major league debut.
I mean crazy, but I don't know about you, Joe,
but it's just not the same. I realized it's no
(23:15):
hitter because the other team didn't get a hit. As
a fan, Joe, what's your thought on combined no hitters?
Speaker 3 (23:23):
Save them for spring training games? You know, I I'm
really you're right.
Speaker 4 (23:28):
I mean, I was watching you know, you get TV
last night. I was in that little box pops up.
I had no hitters in progress. So I talked to myself,
hmm Houston, and then I tuned in and I immediately
recognized the fact that this is going to be a
combined no hitter. I lost interest immediately, quite frankly, I did. I.
I mean, it's it's kind of nice that these guys did.
And was it the kid's name Maya Wright? The picture right,
(23:51):
several walks, just a couple of punching ball, a lot
of balls in play. It wasn't. It was one of
those fortunate no hitters. So I don't I have nothing there,
I have nothing it's it doesn't move the the needle
for me whatsoever. I'm sure for the kids a little bit,
the players. That is something that not going to be
spoken about for generations. It's going to be forgotten about
(24:14):
by next week. So again, the lack of the marquee
matchup involved, or you know, even just somebody that's just
bursting into the scene, Mark Fidwich or something. Really it's
kind of yawnable and ohum quite frankly.
Speaker 2 (24:28):
Yeah, I'm with you.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
It's by the way, they had more the Astros pitchers,
more walks than strikeouts and a no hitter.
Speaker 3 (24:36):
There you go.
Speaker 1 (24:37):
They had only four strikeouts of the game with a
no hitter. It's only the eleventh no hitter in history
with four or fewer strikeouts and more walks. So it
wasn't even you know, interesting from a dominant standpoint. You
think of no hitters as being dominant. But I wanted
to give you Joe and talk to talking about combined
(24:59):
no hitters or even just weird no hitters. I think
one of the greatest no hitters ever thrown was like
Ken Holtzman. Do you remember him, the old lefty.
Speaker 3 (25:06):
Oh yeah, lefty across his body, big.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
Time nineteen sixty nine. He throws a no hitter. Okay,
three walks, no strikeouts. A no hitter with zero strikeouts,
that is impressive.
Speaker 4 (25:21):
There had to be a ton of ground balls, right,
he had that across his body was a I don't
know if you have those stats, but would have.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
Bet a lot of ground Yeah he had fifteen ground
ball outs.
Speaker 3 (25:28):
Okay, okay, nice?
Speaker 4 (25:29):
Yeah, I mean I liked him. I always loved Kenny Holtzman.
I mean I did. He's just like almost like a
Gumby figure the way he unwound and threw the ball.
But it was always down, down, and away from the rightys.
They probably frustrated them, like a Tommy john kind of
a guy, or Jeff'son kind of a guy. There was
several of those that was part of a genre of
pitching back then, the Tommy john S kind of lefty.
(25:52):
And it's a horrible at bat, Jamie Moore, horrible at
bat for a writing.
Speaker 3 (25:56):
I'm telling you right now, you've done it yourself. No,
you know, righting? Is that like lefties? Yeah?
Speaker 4 (26:01):
Okay, cool, But lefties that throw like that, Randy Jones,
all those guys pain in the butt. The ball just
never gets there. It's so hard to wait.
Speaker 1 (26:10):
The other one in terms of combined no hitters with
the most walks was by the Chicago White Sox nineteen
seventy six against the Oakland A's, and the game was
started by Blue Moon Otam, who at the time was
with the White Sox, pitching against his former team. He
went five innings, walked nine, struck out three. Francisco Barrios
(26:33):
came into the game relieved. Through the last four innings,
he walked to and struck out two, so they had
eleven walks and five strikeouts. It was the last win
of Blue Moon Odam's career, put his record at eighty
four and eighty four. He pitched one more game and loss,
so he finished at eighty four and eighty five.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
You remember Blue Moon Otam, don't you.
Speaker 4 (26:55):
Absolutely sounds like a getaway day. Might have been a
Sunday afternoon, nine thousand degrees.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
He was at the coliseum. There was three thousand people
in this day and.
Speaker 4 (27:03):
Ago, a lot of energy, a lot of energy going
on there. That's what those kind of things happened. I mean,
I was involved in a no hitter, was a perfect game.
Eric Milton in Minnesota was that it was just a
no hitter.
Speaker 3 (27:16):
I think, right, I think it was a hitter eleven
o'clock in a earning game. Left.
Speaker 4 (27:20):
Yeah, I mean, I'm like the interim manager, right. So
we went the night before I think we had already
had the series one we were out of. It was
in September, out of the race. We were not in
a race. So we had the call ups, man, and
we had good call ups. It was Greeney, Todd Green,
Ronando pal Merrow, Troy Gloss, Jeff Devannon. It was a
good group. It wasn't a bad it was a good group.
(27:40):
These guys became good major league players. But they had
this thing of playing eleven o'clock in the morning game
at that time of the year so they could transform
the Metrodome, one of the worst ever into a football
field by the end of the day for the University
of Minnesota. So we get out there and I told
my guys the night before the regular lineup, you guys
aren't playing tomorrow playing these guys so forth and so on.
(28:03):
So we no hit, and all of a sudden, I'm
a bad guy for doing that. And then some of
the players actually mentioned that they were surprised that they
didn't get to pinch it, and I'm saying you got
to because none of those guys wanted to get their
motor running to pinch it in that game.
Speaker 3 (28:16):
And the point was I that was a Saturday game.
Speaker 4 (28:19):
So the point I made was it not evenna, They're
not gonna carry with him, the more it doesn't matter,
blah blah blah. And then we went on Sunday. So you know,
those are the kind of things that happened. They hardly
stick whatsoever. But the Eric Milton one was something that
stands out to me and not unlike your Blue mood
odum or and what was.
Speaker 3 (28:39):
It, Barrios, Yes versus Brios very nice, very nice?
Speaker 1 (28:43):
Yeah, Blue moon odem By the way, I used to
think that it was Charlie Finley who gave him that nickname,
because Charlie Finley basically came up with the nickname of
Catfish for Jim Hunter, and he tried to get Vita
Blue to change his name.
Speaker 2 (28:57):
To true so he'd be True Blue.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
But it turns out Blue moon Odum had his nickname
going back to when he was in fifth grade in Making, Georgia.
A friend of his called him Moonhead and just the
shape of his head and turned it into blue moon.
Speaker 2 (29:15):
So it goes back to fifth grade.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
And by the way, I said, making Georgia, he went
to the same high school as Otis Redding and little Richard.
Speaker 4 (29:23):
Oh my god, how about that, myst have like, how
about that you have your school player, your school whatever
at the end of the year. My god, it had
to be fantastic.
Speaker 3 (29:33):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
Oh, which brings us to Kyle Schwarber. Speaking about school plays.
I always love this about Kyle Schwarber. When he was
in high school, what was it he was in like
this sheer choir girl or something, Yes, popping in little
linebacker on the.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
Football team and he's out there with the choir, was.
Speaker 4 (29:50):
Popping up on the big board once in a while
it was out. I mean I respected him even more.
I mean, if you remember, we'd walk out to left
field and Wrigley and he'd do a little dance for
the fans out there.
Speaker 3 (30:00):
All the time. He'd get them all riled up.
Speaker 4 (30:02):
I mean, h Schwarves got a little bit of showman
in him, and he wears it well. He plays it
well because he's got like this, like you said, this
is like this is this is absolute blue collar to
the max. This guy is down and dirty. He is
he's just He's just a guy. And then all of
a sudden he does all these this this kind of
artsy side of him that you would never possibly expect.
(30:25):
Comes from a family of first responders. It's his foundation
and the work they do. They're spectacular. So there's he's
got all these different levels about him that nobody would
ever expect.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
He also has twenty one home runs this year.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
As I mentioned, we're just getting to the one third
point of the season. This guy's got a legitimate shot
at sixty home runs.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
Kyle Schwerber is thirty three.
Speaker 1 (30:48):
If he's going to hit sixty home runs, he will
be the first player at that age not on peds
to hit sixty. You know, Barry Bonds was thirty six,
Maguire did it at thirty four and thirty five. He
would be the oldest at thirty three in the testing era.
This is amazing when you look at his career. Joe
(31:09):
and I know we've talked before about you know, he's
conquered left handed pitching. He's in a lot of ways
in better shape than he's ever been. When just the
way he carries himself and runs. From his first full
five seasons in the big leagues, he averaged twenty seven
home runs a year. In the last five seasons previous five,
(31:30):
he's averaged forty seven home runs a year.
Speaker 2 (31:35):
How do you explain that to me, Joe, I.
Speaker 4 (31:37):
Honestly believe it's mechanical. I mean it's it's it's you know,
better mental mechanics, but absolutely better physical mechanics.
Speaker 3 (31:44):
Is balanced.
Speaker 4 (31:45):
When he hits the baseball spectacular, he hits he hits
absolute bombs, and he can just stand there and admire
them on the conclusion of his swing because he's not
over swinging, he's staying inside the ball, his head is
staying still, the backside is coming through. He hits him
all over the place, left center, center, right field, right center.
I think it's a big part of it is that
(32:07):
that he's finally got his balance and his stride lentth
and all that stuff is under control. And you combine
that with the mental mechanics. He knows what he's doing
up there now, he knows what he's looking for. You know,
he's gonna go cold once, so he's gonna start punching out.
Everybody's gonna get all upset and wonder what's wrong with Schwarber.
It's like anything else, man, when you play that game.
I just did a gig recently and I talked about
(32:27):
one of the most respectful things. To me, one of
the most difficult things in all sport to do is
to be an everyday player in baseball that nobody you
have no idea, nobody understands what that's like to see
your name on that lineup card.
Speaker 3 (32:40):
I don't even know.
Speaker 4 (32:41):
Let's just say one fifty out of one sixty two
or one fifty five out of one sixty two, and
all the failure involved in that, and all the times
you don't feel good and you go up to the
plate and the ball looks like a p and the
ocean other times looks like a volleyball. It's just there's
all these ups and downs of the season, and when
a guy like him is he's going to absorb the
bad moments. But his confidence is self confidence and is
(33:04):
to shed all that crap and just.
Speaker 3 (33:06):
Keep moving it forward.
Speaker 4 (33:07):
Permits him to strike out, you know, five, six, seven,
out of ten times whatever, and not let it cause
him to blink his eyes because his confidence never really
WANs and then he gets hot like this. So it's
a combination of a lot of things. I think Kevin
Long has been really good for him there. I think
that ballpark. I think Philadelphia is really good for him
because I think there's a natural affinity both sides. It's
(33:30):
an attraction that goes back and forth. It's just like
the perfect spot for him, and that's why I thought
it was wise that they resigned him this year.
Speaker 2 (33:36):
Listen, Kyle doesn't hit too many fence scrapers.
Speaker 3 (33:39):
You know.
Speaker 2 (33:39):
I know the ballpark is great for him. It's a
great hitters ballpark.
Speaker 1 (33:42):
But I think it's more of the comfort with the
city and the team and the group of guys all
of that than it is the ballpark playing into his
hands because, like I said, but he hits them their
way gone. He's able to admire most of the home
runs he hits and stand there and watch. He's a
great fastball hitter. The high fastball he conquered years ago.
Maybe he always did that. A lot of guys do
(34:03):
have trouble with that in the game. And he's in
that age group we talked about to begin with, you
know that thirty one to thirty five where the game
has changed on them. Well, guess what he's conquered it.
I mean, he's better than ever. He's a better hitter
than ever. With the way pitching has changed, has not
been a problem for college Schwerber.
Speaker 2 (34:21):
I'm just so.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
Impressed by, you know, the quality of hisit bats. Now,
I mean when you had him, Joe, I'm sure you
saw the potential there. He could always had that power,
but there was a lot of swing and miss, and
his strike's own discipline has just gotten.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
Better and better over the years.
Speaker 1 (34:39):
I mean, it's a great case study that some guys
do get better as they age.
Speaker 4 (34:42):
Yeah, I mean, for me, the thing that stands out
he would really drift a lot. He was still had
a good eye. He always had a good eye, And
that's why I wanted hit him lead off, because I
always thought that he was going to be a combination
of power and on base percentage. But if I've just
seeing him in mind's eye, left handed, he would get
really heavy on his backside and kind of drift out
where he can be fooled or commit.
Speaker 3 (35:01):
To a pitch too soon.
Speaker 4 (35:03):
But now, I mean, I actually when I'm playing golf
with my driver, I think of him or Aaron Judge
and how they just stay put and rotate and stay
behind the ball.
Speaker 3 (35:12):
So well, that's what he's doing. He gave himself.
Speaker 4 (35:14):
When you do do that that way, you give yourself
more time. And after all, hitting is just about time management.
Speaker 3 (35:20):
It's this this.
Speaker 4 (35:21):
Very brief moment that you have to be able to
control this distance and time and as a picture is
coming towards you, if you want to charge towards the
picture with your body in your hands, you're taking time
away from yourself. He's created more time by the way
his body moves and this and the stride foot and
how it lands and everything stays behind and his head
stays behind. So I just think he's learned how to
(35:42):
manage his time a whole lot better. And with that,
and the same thing with Judge. If you watch Judge Man,
when they show those side videos after you know you
hit a ball really well, you'll see like a little
bit of angle back with his body and you see
there's no drift forward, and that's really that's that's to
me the biggest thing that Shorts has done differently from
the time I had had him with the Cubbies.
Speaker 1 (36:04):
Well, I remember theo Epstein telling me when he drafted
Kyle Schwarber. Remember he was a catcher at Indiana. They
weren't sure where he would play. A national league team,
taking a guy who was a bad first guy back
then there was no universal DH and theo's thought was,
we're going to take him and probably just kind of
figure him out in left field, and we just want him.
(36:27):
Let him put up big poppy numbers, like the bat
was worth it. A big poppy was the comp. You
know what, that's the best comp now for KYLEE.
Speaker 2 (36:35):
Schwarber.
Speaker 1 (36:36):
Kel Schouber may wind up hitting five hundred home runs,
And like David Ortiz, he's getting better as he ages,
because I think it's also part of just being smarter
as a hitter. There's a lot of baseball IQ there,
you know that, Joe.
Speaker 3 (36:51):
Oh there is. He's a great student of the game.
Speaker 4 (36:53):
Like I said, I think he's got this unwavering confidence
because I saw David Ortiz when it was with Minnesota
as a baby before he went to the Red Sox,
and the thing that God that I love about him,
this dude would just foul off two strike pitches that
weren't his to get to the next pitch and then
the one night he hit a home run into the
left field bullpen at Anaheim, which is a pretty good
(37:14):
poke at night, and that that.
Speaker 3 (37:16):
Convinced me when I saw that.
Speaker 4 (37:17):
But it was a combination of his eye, his ability
to foul off the pitcher's pitch to get to the
next pitch, and hopefully his own and his appo power.
Speaker 3 (37:25):
And that's what you know. Kyle probably did not have the.
Speaker 4 (37:30):
Sophistication with fouling off a pitch to get to the
next one younger, but he always had that appo pop.
And now this sophistication is catching up with his bats
of Schwarbs versus Big Poppy. Big Poppy just had that
in his DNA man, and all of a sudden he
goes to Boston and he blooms, even though he was
on the verge of doing that with Minnesota when I
(37:50):
had seen him there. So it's a great comp It's
it's absolutely accurate and got a like you just mentioned.
I saw Schwarbs during the Cup convention this year in January. Gosh,
he almost looked smaller and he but he was in
great shape. You know, there's definitely he leaned out. He
looks really good. Hey, he knows, he knows what's going on,
(38:11):
and he you know, he's in the at the point of,
you know, realizing a nice payoff, which you received. But
you can pay a guy like Schwerber and that's not
going to change him, that's going to make him better.
Speaker 1 (38:22):
Well, I promised you a great quote about analytics, and
it actually.
Speaker 2 (38:25):
Comes from a coach.
Speaker 1 (38:28):
We're going to get to that right after this on
the Book of Joe. Welcome back to the Book of Joe.
Kenny Atkins, Cleveland having Lear's coach. You know him, right, Joe.
(38:50):
You've heard about Kenny Atkinson, Yes, yes, yes, actually covered
him as a high school player. Who's a high school
player at Northport High School on Long Island. I was
at Newsday. That's how far back I go. Anyway, the
Cavaliers were in the process, as it turned out, of
getting swept by your New York Knicks, and it was
(39:11):
after the third game. They're down oh three, and Kenny
Atkinson's actually at this press conference says, analytically, we're two
out of three in the expected outcome, we've won two
out of three.
Speaker 3 (39:27):
That's so funny, that is so funny.
Speaker 1 (39:29):
And he looked up in the room of course, everybody's like,
what is this dude talking about your in the process
of getting swept Here you're trying to tell me we
should think that you've won two of the first three
based on analytics, And he said, listen, I know you're
looking confused, but if you believe in the process and
all that, I know you don't want to hear it,
(39:50):
but we've won two out of three. I mean, come on,
you just cannot say that. We understand the point. You
can find whatever number you want to justify or explain.
Speaker 2 (40:03):
Why you're down three to zero.
Speaker 1 (40:05):
You cannot get in front of a microphone and tell
the media that analytically you've won two out of every
three games when you've lost three in a row. I mean,
we've talked a lot about execut you speak, Joe. It's
rare when I hear a coach or a manager laps
into that.
Speaker 4 (40:24):
Yeah, that's that's there's reality, and then there's that wow.
Speaker 3 (40:28):
I mean, that's.
Speaker 4 (40:29):
That's probably the highest level of rationalization possible, the fact
that you lost but you won.
Speaker 1 (40:34):
And he actually did say, I'm sure you know nobody
wants to hear this.
Speaker 2 (40:39):
Well, don't say it then.
Speaker 3 (40:40):
Of course not.
Speaker 4 (40:41):
I mean how could you possibly I listen, the guys
had a great year of coaching when he came from
the nets before that, right, and he's done a nice
job with everything. But don't say that. Just don't say that.
It means nothing. It literally means nothing. There's you could
talk about that in a meeting and you could somehow
gain solace in the fact that we lost. But man,
(41:01):
we played really well. And then you substainiate, you know,
whether your game plan was about you could substantiate the
people you chose. But here comes the analytical inability to
measure heart and desire and performance on the court in
the moment.
Speaker 3 (41:15):
And why did the Knicks just kick their butt? I
mean kick their butt?
Speaker 4 (41:18):
And if you watch the game last night, don't tell
me analytically they won that game.
Speaker 3 (41:22):
They were just barely making it up and down the court.
Speaker 4 (41:24):
So it's just a it's a bad method, it's a gosh,
that's something that again, keep it in your own personal boardroom.
Don't say it out loud. Everybody can hear you, because
that really plays poorly.
Speaker 1 (41:35):
Yeah, especially to your fan base, that's the last thing
they want to hear. Absolutely, it takes some accountability. That's
what they want to hear. You know, I think when
a coach gets in that situation, I get it, he's
trying to justify it, and there probably is some numbers
you can look at, but you can look at all
these numbers. Like what really bothers me is when people
in the industry in baseball talk about media and some
(41:57):
people actually in uniform talk about the luck factor in baseball,
like to look at the expected batting average or the
exit velocity, and they'll say, he's unlucky. It's bound to change.
Stop it. It's not luck. It's just the residue of
what baseball is. And it doesn't mean it's going to
(42:19):
turn around. It doesn't mean you're just hitting in bad luck.
You're having a bad year. Things aren't falling. I get it,
it happens, but don't try to explain it to me
as the residue of quote unquote luck. I hate hearing
that players are either lucky because they have a high
batting average on balls and play, or they're unlucky because
they don't and things are due to turn around.
Speaker 4 (42:39):
Reality versus the people that want to change history in
some way or change the outcome to fit.
Speaker 3 (42:47):
Probably most of the time.
Speaker 4 (42:48):
With they thought would have occurred, and they're going to
stick to that, Like you're saying, they can't even admit
we is it wrong.
Speaker 3 (42:54):
I don't know if you're wrong. I don't know if
that's the right word. But it didn't happen that way.
Speaker 4 (42:58):
Revision is historians to me are so boring. The only
time I you know what, I like, revision is history.
It's like eleven twenty two sixty three when Stephen King
wrote that revision is historian moment about the jfk assassination.
Speaker 3 (43:11):
That was brilliant.
Speaker 4 (43:12):
I love that because I knew it was fiction. I
could play it all the way through and you could
just you know, have fun with something like that. But
when you start doing revision is history regarding actual athletic events,
the moment like postwarningly after like ten minutes or an
hour after the game or the next day, stop just stop.
(43:33):
You could talk about things that could have possibly gone differently,
but that's that's they didn't. They didn't go differently. This
is the way the game was played. And I just
I like the idea of reporting on how the game
was played and not necessarily trying to flip the script.
Had this happened instead, it did happen that way. I'm like,
so practical with that, and so because I know as
an athlete when I stunk, when you when you screwed
(43:56):
something up, you never tried to revise it in a way. Well,
if I had done this better, No, you didn't.
Speaker 3 (44:01):
Do it better. Okay, go to the practice range.
Speaker 4 (44:04):
To go to batting practice range, you know, stay after
with the wide receivers. Afterwards, get a couple more reps,
get the ball in the air before they complete their break,
things like that's where's my spot? Where the linebackers get
that done in advance of the moment, But don't tell
me how or why the game. In my mind's eye, well,
(44:24):
if this had happened, or if somebody had done this differently,
of course, of course, but that is not real and
people that deal with that all the time drive me crazy.
Speaker 2 (44:34):
And fans don't want to hear it. No, you know,
they really don't.
Speaker 1 (44:37):
I mean, if you go to a baseball game and
you sit in the stands, nobody is talking about analytics
in the stands, that's right. And listen, I like the
numbers as much as anybody. We all do, and we
want information. I get that, But to explain something away
to your fan base based on analytics, nobody wants to
hear that.
Speaker 2 (44:54):
I mean nobody. They want accountability.
Speaker 4 (44:57):
And you know, one of my conclusions is that analytics
provides a safety net for decision making. Voila, there you
have it right there, whatever decisions are made, the game plan,
like I said, whatever, whatever, whatever, So there's a safety
that you know, analytically, we did everything we're supposed to
and actually it was a little bit better than the
result actually indicated. So thus we're going to stay with
(45:18):
the analytical process. And listen, I'm all about the process.
I am big on process. I think when you stick
with your process over a course of time, if you're
good and the process is a good one, at the
end of the year, whatever the sport may be, you
should have more wins in that wind pile than you
have losses in the loss pile.
Speaker 3 (45:37):
After all, that's what we're all about.
Speaker 4 (45:39):
And if you're able to stay with that process in
a bad moment when things aren't right or you're just
not feeling it kind of like an anchor to hold
on to, like a little rope to hang onto that
keeps going from going to the quick sand it's a
good thing.
Speaker 3 (45:55):
It's a good thing.
Speaker 4 (45:56):
That process is a good thing. But at the end
of the day, it's performance that counts. And everybody in
the world today just relies too much on data analytics
and the fact that it's omnipotent, that it's infoulble.
Speaker 3 (46:10):
It's not. It's not.
Speaker 4 (46:11):
It's basically somebody's opinion analytics. It's just about putting this
cocktail together that you run through a machine that a
lot has a lot of your own personal biases, organizational
biases is in it in order to come to conclusion
because they change all the time.
Speaker 3 (46:25):
It's like diets.
Speaker 4 (46:26):
It's like with the American Medical Associations raised the standards
for blood pressure, whereas a couple of years ago was
completely different. It changes. It just changes based on perceived
and I guess it's science to a certain extent. But
the side when the science keeps changing, it's like religions
that change. I have a hard time with that. Religion
should be tough and not easy in my mind's eye.
(46:47):
So anyhow, off on another tangent, so I reality versus
vision is historians man stick with reality. It's a lot,
it's authentic and it's real.
Speaker 2 (46:58):
Well, we get nothing but the truth from you, Joe Madden.
Speaker 1 (47:01):
Here on the Book of Joe, there's no there's no disassembling,
there's no rationalization, and so I know you always give
us nothing but the truth, especially to end these episodes.
Speaker 2 (47:12):
What do you have as for us today on the
Book of Joe.
Speaker 4 (47:14):
Well, honestly, you know, watching my videos in the morning
and this celebratory manner is really starting to work in
on me, even to the point now where guys after
home and have to recognize everybody in the bullpen. How
much time do these guys spend on all these these
indicators and signs to include everybody in this joyful moment?
Speaker 1 (47:37):
Ack you, thank you, thank you for bringing that up.
I've had the same reaction watching this come on.
Speaker 4 (47:43):
Okay, recently, a good friend and a great player at GA,
Garrett Anderson passed away and GA was as stoic as
it came. GA was the same cat, through good or bad,
and GA was really good. Check out the video of
the seventh game of the World Series and hits his
bullet on the right field line against was Hernandez and
(48:03):
Angels end up winning four to one. But watch his
reaction as he's standing at second base. Done it before,
I'm gonna do it again.
Speaker 3 (48:09):
So odd. It's the seventh game of the World Series.
I just I'm so over it.
Speaker 4 (48:14):
I'm looking for the team that just goes the opposite,
the team that doesn't celebrate. They just hit a home run,
they cross on plate, they shake hands, and they get
to the dugout, they shake somebody sound. They don't put
on a coat, they don't they don't go through all
these and listen, I'm part of the I'm part of
the responsible for this happening in the first place. I
get it, but it's gone too far. It's like everything else, analytics,
(48:34):
everything goes too far. You just can't get enough of
a bad thing. It sounds like so with that, I
had a couple things here. The most dangerous time to
celebrate is the moment you think.
Speaker 3 (48:43):
You've already won. I mean, what do you right.
Speaker 4 (48:45):
It's like the fourth Indian you're losing by seven or
eight runs, somebody hits the home run, and all of
a sudden, they're pointing at they're pointing out relief pitchers.
They come inside, they're wearing jackets. Whatever they're putting on helmets.
I do like the traffic coneer with the Pirates.
Speaker 3 (48:59):
I gotta admit that.
Speaker 4 (49:00):
So wait, and I'm all about celebrating accomplishment. Stop stop,
stop the madness, Let the kids play. That's not what
was meant by all of this. It's a really it's
becoming borish behavior. I'd much prefer see professionals be professionals,
you know, celebrate when it's all over. Okay, the ice bucket, whatever.
(49:21):
But we had a celebration room in Chicago. We had
a celebration room in Tampa Bay. The whole room, the
whole clubhouse was There was a disco ball, there was
loud music, there was instruments. Game over in your clubhouse
by yourself. Wait, wait, wait till the game's over. I'd
much prefer that.
Speaker 1 (49:37):
I'm glad you brought that up, because it is stopped
long ago being organic. It's contrived, right, So there's almost
like a peer pressure aspect to it where everybody now
has to acknowledge the bullpen.
Speaker 2 (49:50):
What is that about? Anyway?
Speaker 1 (49:52):
If you're a relief pitcher sitting out there in the
third inning, you know, spit in your sunflower seeds? Are
you going to be upset if a guy doesn't acknowledge
you when he hits a home run?
Speaker 2 (50:01):
What does that have to do with relief pitching.
Speaker 1 (50:04):
I don't get it, and the whole we have to
find some kind of head gear or let's have our
own home run celebration, no matter what the score. There's
almost an obligation now to contrive something. That's what I
don't like about it. It's not organic, it's contrived. It's
a can you top this world? Be your own person,
do your own thing. You're telling me that everybody who
(50:25):
HiT's a home run thinks it's cool to acknowledge relief.
Speaker 2 (50:30):
Pictures in the bullpen.
Speaker 1 (50:31):
Everybody, No, everybody has to do it now because of
the peer pressure aspect.
Speaker 2 (50:36):
I don't get it. I'm not sure where it came from.
Speaker 1 (50:38):
I don't really care where it came from, right, but man,
I jumped the shark long ago.
Speaker 4 (50:43):
Even even when they get on base and they got
to look at the dugout and then they got to
acknowledge them to all that.
Speaker 1 (50:48):
He let's have our secret society hand signal.
Speaker 4 (50:53):
Come on God, Like I said, I think I was
part of the genesis of all that with Tim Buss
and Bussy Stole is the best he's with the angels.
Speaker 3 (51:01):
But anyway, let's let's just tone it down.
Speaker 4 (51:03):
Let's let's get let's go the opposite direction for a
while and see if like we don't do anything except
shake somebody's hand or give them a fist pump whatever. See,
I see how that works. But this other side of
it's gotten way over the top. And like you said,
it's inauthentic, and anything non organic or inauthentic really turns
me off.
Speaker 1 (51:21):
Yeah, and it's not a matter of you know, being
the fun police here and saying stop, get off my
lawn all that. But we're seeing guys. Now you get
an infield single, you have to give us a hand
signal to dugout, like look at me, aren't we great?
Speaker 2 (51:34):
Right, that's the problem here.
Speaker 1 (51:36):
Like you said, you've taken something that was cool in
special moments, and it's not special.
Speaker 2 (51:43):
It's just you know, overdone too much.
Speaker 3 (51:46):
I'm with you.
Speaker 2 (51:47):
Well, let's get to work on that. Let's uh.
Speaker 1 (51:50):
I don't know what we can do about it, but
it's it's gone a little bit too far.
Speaker 4 (51:55):
Just well, just keep preaching organic baseball or excuse me,
analog baseball.
Speaker 3 (51:59):
We'll see if we can bring it on back to
where it had.
Speaker 2 (52:01):
I like organic baseball too, so that's plug organic.
Speaker 3 (52:05):
Bring it on.
Speaker 2 (52:06):
It's kind of like your garden.
Speaker 4 (52:08):
That's right, and that's I'm gonna attend to that right
when we get done here.
Speaker 1 (52:11):
All right, we'll let you get on the tiller and
go do your tilling. See you next time on the
Book of Joe.
Speaker 3 (52:16):
See you brother.
Speaker 2 (52:25):
The Book of.
Speaker 1 (52:26):
Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts
from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
you get your podcasts.
The Book of Joe Podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Hey Aaron, welcome back. It's the Book of Joe Podcast.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
It's me Tom Berducci and Joe Madden. Joe, we just passed,
as you know, Memorial Day weekend. It's kind of like
a turning point not just for the summer, but the
baseball season. We basically have if you can believe this
one third of this season in the books.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
How's your season going?
Speaker 3 (00:38):
The growing season hasn't begun yet.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Farmer Joe, tell us about your farm.
Speaker 4 (00:43):
Yeah, I mean, I'm really getting into the vegetable stuff
right now. But recently purchased a lot of house with
a really large backyard, if you want to call it that,
and so had to get an actual tractor to cut
the grass. You couldn't just do it the lawnmower. And
I'm loving it. I cut the grass through out of
four days in anticipation of the ring. I didn't want
(01:03):
to have to like cut this really high wet grass
that's done. Bought a tiller because just as a trying
to take it to the next level of gardening and
just trying to get some till, some soil, plant some seeds,
actually in the ground, not raised beds, that kind of stuff,
just fun things. And we were just talking before we started,
and I understand why farmers are so tired at the
(01:24):
end of the day. They come home and probably in sleep,
sleep by eight o'clock at night. You get up so early,
and then they work so hard all day. But it's
been fun. It's a nice way to park it, you know.
I think we talked about it last week, just to
park the brain, right. Spoke to that about somebody parking
your mind in an activity that you really enjoy it.
It's almost borderline passionate if it's not. And the parking
(01:47):
of the brain is really a good way to exist.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
It's your version of a zen garden. I guess that's correct.
Speaker 4 (01:52):
That's another way to put It's a tomato garden zen
garden save thing.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
This time of year, I like to kind of take
stock of where we are a couple of interesting trends
for you, and i'd love to get your reaction.
Speaker 3 (02:03):
Here.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
I'm looking at the Major League batting average in the
month of May, as you know, every April. You know,
people like to save pitchers are ahead of the hitters.
They talk about how the weather isn't great, you know,
and hitting is gonna come around as the weather warms up.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Well, the batting average in Major.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
League Baseball in April was two forty three. In May
it was two thirty five. Now, how bad is that?
That is the third lowest batting average in the month
of May in the history of baseball. The only two
Mays where the batting average was worse nineteen sixty eight.
That's like when baseball bottomed out offensively, right, they had
(02:41):
to start, you know, adding a DH, lowering the mound,
all these things to get more offense back in the game.
And the other year was nineteen oh eight, which is
smack dab in the middle of the dead ball era.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
That is amazing to me.
Speaker 1 (02:54):
The overall batting average this year is two thirty nine
from a similar point last year.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
That's down five points.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
I don't know if this is caught your attention, Joe,
but you know, looking around the game, the games that
I'm at, you just don't see a lot of hits.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
I mean, it is a pitcher's game right now.
Speaker 4 (03:14):
Okay, you kind of alluded to this recently, and okay,
it's two forty three.
Speaker 3 (03:19):
I know, when I was a young scout.
Speaker 4 (03:22):
We were able to give a fifty grade on our
scout and report present and or future if we thought
the guy could hit.
Speaker 3 (03:31):
I think it was right around two fifty five or
two sixty.
Speaker 4 (03:33):
I think that's what we considered in that general ballpark.
What was an average major league hitter? That was it,
And of course you get the eighty grade. That was
the highest grade you can give for the guy that
would hit you thought would hit like maybe three hundred
or better, you know, like the seven hit it up
into the high two nineties. That kind of a thing,
and those are becoming fewer and way far between.
Speaker 3 (03:54):
Now.
Speaker 4 (03:54):
I'm just just writing some notes and as we were
talking about this, and there's got to be several reasons
I would have guessed, and they're all interconnected.
Speaker 3 (04:03):
I think.
Speaker 4 (04:03):
In all carry different weight regarding why it's come down.
And you could say better pitching in regards to more velocity.
You could talk about the shape of the pitches, those
kinds of things. But make god, if you watch old videos,
there's some dudes with some good stuff and good pitch shape,
there's no shift and the batting averages come down. So
that's kind of interesting to me. Also, when you break
(04:25):
down this batting average. I'd left to see righty's and
lefties like the left haended batting averages, have they progressed
or remained the same, or even regressed. And then the
same thing with writings that I would look at it
in two different ways. Defensive metrics, you know where you
start your defenders on defense that continually has gotten really
(04:45):
you know, obviously better.
Speaker 3 (04:46):
And everybody's doing it now.
Speaker 4 (04:47):
I mean, when when the race started in two thousand
and eight, we were into it, nobody everybody laughed at
us the some of the things we did. And now
again it's a homogenized version of baseball. There's everybody's doing
the same things all the time, all working off the
same sheet of music, all the same information. And I
think that's why the a lot of five hundred stuff
going on too. But the defensive metrics have something to
(05:08):
do with that, because my line was we catch line drives.
I wanted to be closer or one of our defenders
to be closer where heart hit balls occurred, you know,
according to this our maps versus this with this hitter
and sometimes specifically against the pitchers, and that picture. And
then also philosophically, what are we teaching, and what are
(05:29):
the what are the what are the what's what's the
desired result? Right here is contact? A desired result is
two strike approach desired. His opposite field desired is uh
the b hacker again the two strike approach are we
are you willing to curtail cut down some how your
swing as account got deeper, or you're supposed to just
keep it full throttle the whole all the way through.
(05:51):
So I think there's a variety of different reasons why,
But I philosophically.
Speaker 3 (05:56):
I would really just start there.
Speaker 4 (05:58):
Pitching, Yeah, it's good, no shift, okay, that should be
make that batting average, this higher metrics is nothing you
can do about that. They're here to stay. But philosophically
teaching again, I still think that has something to do
with it. The method's being employed. Hitters just like one
size fits all kind of a mentality, and there's no
real adaptations made during the yet bat it's just like
(06:23):
ful gorilla.
Speaker 3 (06:24):
Here we go.
Speaker 4 (06:24):
So I'm just those are the things that come to
my mind why this might be where it's at. So curious,
anything more deep that you have on.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
That, Yeah, I've gotten deep into this. I do agree
to some extent this is about hitting. There still is
an emphasis on getting the ball in the air, especially
pole side power. Getting the ball in the air and
you're going to be prone to swing and miss, and
not only that if you don't catch it right. The
batting average on balls in the air is extremely low,
(06:56):
especially now that outfield to play so deep. It's hard
to get a ball in the gap in the air.
It's got to be a line drive. That's part of it.
I think the biggest driver of this is really is
the way pitching has evolved with pitch shaping.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
Yes, velocity is up, but they're throwing fewer fastballs.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
And it's interesting that this is all happening, Joe in
the first year of ABS. Hitting has gone down in
the first year of ABS. And there was a thought
that ABS would force pitchers into the middle of the
strike zone, that the strike zone now being clearly defined,
you couldn't. As a lot of pitchers did stretch the
strike zone and get some calls and the pitch framing
(07:34):
and all that, we're seeing the exact opposite, where pitchers
now are keeping the ball on the edges of the
strike zone better than ever, with a variety of pitchers.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
To me, there's too much now for a hitter to cover.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
And just as an example, you know now there's really
no such thing as a fastball count, right. Maybe it's
three to zero, maybe, but you're seeing spin it off
speed in any kind of count.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
Fastballs down the middle.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
We're essentially talking about challenge fastballs. They're at the lowest
point since we've been tracking pitches. That's nineteen seasons, with
a big drop in the last ten years. It's down
thirteen percent. Hitters are not seeing fastballs over the plate.
The challenge fastball is essentially dead, and I think that's
(08:24):
got a lot to do it.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
And the other thing, and this again.
Speaker 1 (08:27):
Dovetails with all the pitch shaping and the lack of
just those challenge fastballs. If you were a hitter ten
years ago, you could classify a lot of pitchers as
a sinker slider guy, as a high four seam, high
vert guy.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
Guys had certain profiles.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
Now everybody, it seems, is moving the ball four different
ways in all quadrants of the zone.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
And this really struck me.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
Joe looking at batting average according to age right, it's
the first time I think this has ever happened where
there was a direct correlation. The older you are, the
worst you hit. If you go back ten years, the
highest batting average was by guys in the thirty one
to thirty five slot. Now you're starting to combine the
(09:15):
experience of hitting and you still have some skills. The
worst was the younger guys because you got to the
major leagues and you're seeing stuff you.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
Never saw before. It's the exact opposite.
Speaker 1 (09:25):
Now, batting average on players twenty five and under is
two forty two. From twenty six to thirty it goes
down to two forty one. From thirty one to thirty
five it goes down to two thirty three. That's the
lowest in the history of the game for that age group.
And then thirty six and above you're down to two
(09:46):
twenty six. The game is squeezing out those guys, the
thirty six plus guys. It's that they've been cut in
half just in the last ten years and the amount
of plate appearances they get.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
So to sum up for you.
Speaker 1 (10:01):
The batting average for younger the young LONGUS players is
the highest, and it gets worse as the players age.
I think the game has changed on these thirty something
hitters where they're seeing stuff they never saw before, whereas
the younger guys, younger, maybe faster twitch, are able to
react more to what's happening in the game.
Speaker 4 (10:21):
It's a lot of logical stuff. Okay, back to the
batting average. Rick Down a very good hitting instructor no
longer with us. Ricus used to always talk about we
did we tried not to teach hitting fly balls. We
thought ground balls and hard ground balls and line drives
was where it was at. Because that's aid a moment
in time when we you know, batting average was considered
(10:43):
kind of a benchmark to a good hitter, whereas today
it's not necessarily considered as much.
Speaker 3 (10:48):
But that was the mantra back then to.
Speaker 4 (10:51):
Do that, And I mean I talk about that continually
as a hitting coach. You know, sta out of the
air because you know you're talking about it. Unless the
guy's an extreme power then you didn't say anything. But
the most part, we didn't have as many, you know,
guys coming up through the minor leagues coming up to
your big league club. There was the guys that could
put the ball on air, hit it out, and there's
(11:12):
others that you just didn't want to put have the
ball put in the air. But the overarching philosophy was
line drives, hard ground balls, fly balls, areroutes, just like
you said, but everything that that also speaks to adjustments.
If everything's happening on the edges, it's almost like the
definition of insanity. Why do I just keep coming on
glue trying to lift the ball up. I'm not going
(11:33):
to get the pitch I can hit with more consistency.
Home Runs are thrown by the pitchers more than they're
hit by the hitter. And again, you will react if
you have pop, you're strong, you've got a good hack.
Look at Aaron Judge if they make a mistake in
the area that you like and you could really drive
the ball. The secret is not the filed off not
to take it. They hit it hard and keep it fair.
(11:55):
But if you're going to have like just say, the
guys hit had twenty five home runs a year and
they're considered really you know, powerful, lead as good hitters
in that regard, But how about the the six hundred
plate appearances they get and what do they do with those?
That's always been my bone of contention. I want the
twenty five homers, yeah, but I want better overall at bass,
how many times you get into a two strike count
(12:15):
and don't change anything. How many times you step in
the box and you don't feel really good, just in
a bad moment, you're not seeing the ball well, and
you keep trying to do the same thing without any
kind of adjustments or just two strikes. I left on left,
if you're going to play left on left, my left.
If you're trying to teach a young hitter to be
a left on left guy, I would ask them to
go to their b hack with one strike, not with
(12:36):
two strikes. As an example. I mean, there's adjustments to
be made in order to move the ball more consistently
and hopefully, you know, grab a couple more knocks right there,
or just frustrate the pitchers see a lot of pitches,
fall off pitches and get to potentially a walk is
also obviously a very good thing. So all these things
are as you're talking, these are all the things that
are coming to my head. And then when it talks
(12:58):
about the older player, Okay, how many guys are actually
older playing now compared to the past, I mean, does
it have anything to do with the amount of money
being made? Like I'm talking about better players. Better players
who have made a lot of dough do they really
want to play in an advanced stage? Are there less
better players playing at an advanced age today than there
had been years ago when the money made during the
(13:19):
season was still really important to players as opposed to
now a lot of these guys you were playing into
a significant age, You've probably made a lot of dough
by now. So these I think, all these different things
come to my head as you're talking about it. But
for me, this all speaks to philosophical making adjustments. If
I'm not seeing my pitch, what do I keep trying
to hit a ball out of a ballpark that I
(13:41):
cannot the pitcher's not permitting it right now? And that's
where I would start. And again this is we talk
minor leagues. This has got to start there, man, it
this doesn't start on a big league level. It's hard
to get a guide in the major leagues. And all
of a sudden, notice this is being deficient and you
want to make these kind of changes. Hard to do,
really hard to do. This guy just trying to survive.
(14:03):
He can be a level guy. He's just trying to
stay in the big leagues. He hasn't arrived at the
point he belongs to he can do this. So this
is where the minor league system in general, to me,
if it was a little bit more complete, a little
bit more thick as compared to what it happened what
it is right now, you could teach these kind of things.
There's more time to but the accelerated journey of a
(14:24):
lot of these young players doesn't permit that. And again,
I guess that's when I'm getting driving. It's a myriad
of different reasons, but I would start philosophically, and you
think about the older players. I'm just curious the number
of better older players still in the game compared to
the past, just based on finances.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
Yeah, I don't think he has anything to do with finances.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
I think if you go back at generation, it began
with ped testing. I mean, it was a joke what
people were doing the late nineties, early two thousand's thirty
five plus plan like they were twenty five plus in
terms of bat speed, never taking days off peds, carrying
them through the months of August in September. It warped
(15:05):
the game, and it wasn't just home run records. It
was the older players extending their prime, so we got
rid of that, thankfully.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
That's part of it.
Speaker 1 (15:15):
And I just think because the game has changed so
much in the last ten years, especially with velocity and spin,
it's harder for the older players. I mean, you're seeing
it this year with guys like Manny Machado, Marcus Simi
and Trey Turner, and I realized there are guys every
year you can pick and choose, but in general, I
don't think there is as many good older players for
(15:36):
a lot of reasons, but essentially because if you got
to the big league ten eleven years ago, the average
fastball has gone up like two miles per hour and
you're throwing it less than ever because they're spinning it more. So,
think about how much of that game has changed, and
you got guys training off the high velocity machines now
to try to catch up with it. It's a rough
(15:56):
world for the older player. So I think that's got
something to do with it. Let me ask you, Joe
about since we're taking stock of one third of the
way through the season, if you look at three of
the last place teams, I mean, this is a story
about when good teams go bad.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
Are the Mets, the Red Sox, and the Tigers.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
And we talk about offense, the bottom five offensive teams.
Speaker 2 (16:21):
And I'll go reverse order, the last being the Giants.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
Red Sox are twenty ninth, The Tigers are twenty eighth,
the Mets are twenty sixth, and the Mets have the lowest.
Speaker 2 (16:31):
Slugging percentage in Baseball? Mets, Red Sox, Tigers.
Speaker 1 (16:36):
Can any of those teams rally to be a postseason team?
Speaker 4 (16:41):
Among those three teams? First of all, are any of
the missing key offensive components that are going to be
coming back?
Speaker 1 (16:49):
Well, Detroit's missing a lot, yeah, I mean they've had
Kerry Carpenter out, Glaber Torres out, Parker Meadows out, They've
had a bunch of injuries, the Mets obviously with Lindor,
I mean, you know story now with the Red Sox.
Speaker 4 (17:05):
So to me, the most significant team that's been hurt
by it has been the Tigers. And so among those three,
I would just say that they probably stand the best
chance if these guys do come back in a relatively
short period of time. And plus that division is not
just being run away with correct, I mean, how many
games are they back?
Speaker 3 (17:21):
I haven't even looked at that research.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
Yeah, I mean the division always to me is very forgiving, right,
so it's very it's gettable. Yet Cleveland is for real,
we know that, right, You never discount them. But Detroit
being in last place, they're ten games out behind Cleveland.
Speaker 4 (17:39):
That's tough. Yeah, that's tough. Yeah, tens a big number,
not impossible. I've done it with the Rays when we
came back in a September, almost at that particular number.
So I mean, looking at the team that's not completely
out of it would be for me, like I'm saying,
looking at those because you can't you can't rely on
acquisitions that ain't gonna happen. But if you already have
the acquisitions within the group, guys that have been injured
(18:01):
are coming back and relatively short period of time, that
would be the one that I would pin the hope on.
So among the three, like I said, Lindors is so
great player. Love Lindor, but just hot and cold kind
of a guy. The Red Sox, I just think you know,
they've they've gone through a lot of stuff right now
and they're just trying to hold on and try to
just get their salvage their season in a sense. But
(18:22):
I think Detroit having legitimate guys coming back, that would
be the group I would look at.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
I'm with you one hundred percent. I think the Tigers
still have a chance.
Speaker 1 (18:31):
It's getting remote because they've ever since Trek Scoogle went
on the IL, they've been a really bad team. And
you know, I never really love them offensively, but I
thought their pitching would carry them. The Mets and the
Red Sox both look like it ain't.
Speaker 3 (18:45):
Can I happen?
Speaker 1 (18:46):
I mean, there's just you know, the Mets just don't
have the depth, and the Red Sox I think miscast
their team. They had a team that really, to me
was not a good offensive team. When you play in
Fenway Park, you have to be able to bang the
ball a little bit, and they can't. So I'm not
sure what the future is for those two teams. Tiger's
got a shot. Let's look at the other end of
(19:06):
the spectrum, some of the surprise teams. Joe, who might
be able to hold up Cardinals, Pirates, Nationals, White Sox.
Give me one of those teams you think has the
best shot of being a postseason team.
Speaker 3 (19:22):
Like the Nationals. Those plays can hit, or.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
They can hit the ball, place can.
Speaker 4 (19:26):
Hit man, I really make sure every day to watch
the Nationals video. They got some young, serious pop. I
don't really know how good their pitching staff is, but
as a group of young offensive players and we're talking
about offense leading the way, I kind of dig on that.
Speaker 3 (19:46):
And Walker.
Speaker 4 (19:47):
I'm a big fan of Walker with the Cardinals, and
I love what he's doing. And I have a couple
of years ago I read an article about him. His
voice was heard in the article and he was struggling,
and I guess there was a lot of different suggestions
being thrown as way, and he pretty much said, you know, listen,
that's enough and I really have to narrow this down
(20:08):
and adhere to what I believe in. And I loved
when I read that, and I'm loving watching his ascension
right now. I think the White Sox. The White Sox
have some pop too. I like their Third Basement a lot.
Vargas and you know, Montgomery's come on there a little bit.
They got some interesting folks over there. But Vargas is
very interesting, he really is. And Pittsburgh, of course, I
(20:29):
just don't know if that they're going to have enough.
They got the great pitching though, and you can't you
can't discount that. But the team I really enjoy tuning
into on a morning basis is the Nationals. I never thought,
you know, never thought about it, but I saw what
would hit another home run, leadoff home rund yesterday.
Speaker 3 (20:46):
And they got some dudes.
Speaker 4 (20:48):
Man, they got and every time they turned it on,
somebody else's going deep lyle I mean, they got some
guys that and they're playing with enthusiasm. I like the
way they're playing a little bit too so. And they
got some their managers, got some Tampa Bay Devil Ray
influence in them. So there's all these little stuff going on.
So I'm gonna go with the Nationals.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
That's a good call.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
I love watching them play as well, younger group that
they hit a ton of extra base hits. They run
the base as well. They're athletic, fun team to watch.
I'm not sure if they're pitching it's gonna hold up.
It's you know, the way they hit. Their pitching just
has to be okay, it doesn't have to be great.
I'm going with the Pirates since that was my preseason
pick that they would make the postseason. A little bit concerned.
(21:29):
There's a ton of strikeouts in that lineup. But man,
I love watching that pitching staff. I mean, I know
Skeens is there, but you know, between Chandler and Ashkraft Macginski,
they're just loaded with great power arms and that is
a fastball based staff, so they're fun to watch pitch.
So that's my team there out of that surprise group. Hey,
(21:53):
let's take a quick break, jaw. There's a lot of
things I want to get to. I want to get
to no hitters. I want to get to Kyle Schwarber,
and I got to talk to you about one of
the great quotes about analytics and sports.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
It's so much fun.
Speaker 1 (22:07):
We'll talk about that right after this on the Book
of Joe.
Speaker 2 (22:23):
Welcome back to the Book of Joe.
Speaker 1 (22:25):
I don't know how you feel about no hitters, but
I cannot get enthused about combined no hitters.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
I really can't.
Speaker 1 (22:33):
I mean, it took two years to get from our
last no hitter to get one. We got it the
other night with Houston using three pitchers to no hit
the Texas Rangers, who, by the way, looked miserable offensively.
Rangers actually had four players in their lineup hitting under
two hundred. Are you kidding me? So the astro throw
(22:55):
no hitter. I started the game. He had an ERA
even after the game over six and the guy who
closed the game, Alimber Santa, was making his major league debut.
I mean crazy, but I don't know about you, Joe,
but it's just not the same. I realized it's no
(23:15):
hitter because the other team didn't get a hit. As
a fan, Joe, what's your thought on combined no hitters?
Speaker 3 (23:23):
Save them for spring training games? You know, I I'm
really you're right.
Speaker 4 (23:28):
I mean, I was watching you know, you get TV
last night. I was in that little box pops up.
I had no hitters in progress. So I talked to myself,
hmm Houston, and then I tuned in and I immediately
recognized the fact that this is going to be a
combined no hitter. I lost interest immediately, quite frankly, I did. I.
I mean, it's it's kind of nice that these guys did.
And was it the kid's name Maya Wright? The picture right,
(23:51):
several walks, just a couple of punching ball, a lot
of balls in play. It wasn't. It was one of
those fortunate no hitters. So I don't I have nothing there,
I have nothing it's it doesn't move the the needle
for me whatsoever. I'm sure for the kids a little bit,
the players. That is something that not going to be
spoken about for generations. It's going to be forgotten about
(24:14):
by next week. So again, the lack of the marquee
matchup involved, or you know, even just somebody that's just
bursting into the scene, Mark Fidwich or something. Really it's
kind of yawnable and ohum quite frankly.
Speaker 2 (24:28):
Yeah, I'm with you.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
It's by the way, they had more the Astros pitchers,
more walks than strikeouts and a no hitter.
Speaker 3 (24:36):
There you go.
Speaker 1 (24:37):
They had only four strikeouts of the game with a
no hitter. It's only the eleventh no hitter in history
with four or fewer strikeouts and more walks. So it
wasn't even you know, interesting from a dominant standpoint. You
think of no hitters as being dominant. But I wanted
to give you Joe and talk to talking about combined
(24:59):
no hitters or even just weird no hitters. I think
one of the greatest no hitters ever thrown was like
Ken Holtzman. Do you remember him, the old lefty.
Speaker 3 (25:06):
Oh yeah, lefty across his body, big.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
Time nineteen sixty nine. He throws a no hitter. Okay,
three walks, no strikeouts. A no hitter with zero strikeouts,
that is impressive.
Speaker 4 (25:21):
There had to be a ton of ground balls, right,
he had that across his body was a I don't
know if you have those stats, but would have.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
Bet a lot of ground Yeah he had fifteen ground
ball outs.
Speaker 3 (25:28):
Okay, okay, nice?
Speaker 4 (25:29):
Yeah, I mean I liked him. I always loved Kenny Holtzman.
I mean I did. He's just like almost like a
Gumby figure the way he unwound and threw the ball.
But it was always down, down, and away from the rightys.
They probably frustrated them, like a Tommy john kind of
a guy, or Jeff'son kind of a guy. There was
several of those that was part of a genre of
pitching back then, the Tommy john S kind of lefty.
(25:52):
And it's a horrible at bat, Jamie Moore, horrible at
bat for a writing.
Speaker 3 (25:56):
I'm telling you right now, you've done it yourself. No,
you know, righting? Is that like lefties? Yeah?
Speaker 4 (26:01):
Okay, cool, But lefties that throw like that, Randy Jones,
all those guys pain in the butt. The ball just
never gets there. It's so hard to wait.
Speaker 1 (26:10):
The other one in terms of combined no hitters with
the most walks was by the Chicago White Sox nineteen
seventy six against the Oakland A's, and the game was
started by Blue Moon Otam, who at the time was
with the White Sox, pitching against his former team. He
went five innings, walked nine, struck out three. Francisco Barrios
(26:33):
came into the game relieved. Through the last four innings,
he walked to and struck out two, so they had
eleven walks and five strikeouts. It was the last win
of Blue Moon Odam's career, put his record at eighty
four and eighty four. He pitched one more game and loss,
so he finished at eighty four and eighty five.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
You remember Blue Moon Otam, don't you.
Speaker 4 (26:55):
Absolutely sounds like a getaway day. Might have been a
Sunday afternoon, nine thousand degrees.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
He was at the coliseum. There was three thousand people
in this day and.
Speaker 4 (27:03):
Ago, a lot of energy, a lot of energy going
on there. That's what those kind of things happened. I mean,
I was involved in a no hitter, was a perfect game.
Eric Milton in Minnesota was that it was just a
no hitter.
Speaker 3 (27:16):
I think, right, I think it was a hitter eleven
o'clock in a earning game. Left.
Speaker 4 (27:20):
Yeah, I mean, I'm like the interim manager, right. So
we went the night before I think we had already
had the series one we were out of. It was
in September, out of the race. We were not in
a race. So we had the call ups, man, and
we had good call ups. It was Greeney, Todd Green,
Ronando pal Merrow, Troy Gloss, Jeff Devannon. It was a
good group. It wasn't a bad it was a good group.
(27:40):
These guys became good major league players. But they had
this thing of playing eleven o'clock in the morning game
at that time of the year so they could transform
the Metrodome, one of the worst ever into a football
field by the end of the day for the University
of Minnesota. So we get out there and I told
my guys the night before the regular lineup, you guys
aren't playing tomorrow playing these guys so forth and so on.
(28:03):
So we no hit, and all of a sudden, I'm
a bad guy for doing that. And then some of
the players actually mentioned that they were surprised that they
didn't get to pinch it, and I'm saying you got
to because none of those guys wanted to get their
motor running to pinch it in that game.
Speaker 3 (28:16):
And the point was I that was a Saturday game.
Speaker 4 (28:19):
So the point I made was it not evenna, They're
not gonna carry with him, the more it doesn't matter,
blah blah blah. And then we went on Sunday. So you know,
those are the kind of things that happened. They hardly
stick whatsoever. But the Eric Milton one was something that
stands out to me and not unlike your Blue mood
odum or and what was.
Speaker 3 (28:39):
It, Barrios, Yes versus Brios very nice, very nice?
Speaker 1 (28:43):
Yeah, Blue moon odem By the way, I used to
think that it was Charlie Finley who gave him that nickname,
because Charlie Finley basically came up with the nickname of
Catfish for Jim Hunter, and he tried to get Vita
Blue to change his name.
Speaker 2 (28:57):
To true so he'd be True Blue.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
But it turns out Blue moon Odum had his nickname
going back to when he was in fifth grade in Making, Georgia.
A friend of his called him Moonhead and just the
shape of his head and turned it into blue moon.
Speaker 2 (29:15):
So it goes back to fifth grade.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
And by the way, I said, making Georgia, he went
to the same high school as Otis Redding and little Richard.
Speaker 4 (29:23):
Oh my god, how about that, myst have like, how
about that you have your school player, your school whatever
at the end of the year. My god, it had
to be fantastic.
Speaker 3 (29:33):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
Oh, which brings us to Kyle Schwarber. Speaking about school plays.
I always love this about Kyle Schwarber. When he was
in high school, what was it he was in like
this sheer choir girl or something, Yes, popping in little
linebacker on the.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
Football team and he's out there with the choir, was.
Speaker 4 (29:50):
Popping up on the big board once in a while
it was out. I mean I respected him even more.
I mean, if you remember, we'd walk out to left
field and Wrigley and he'd do a little dance for
the fans out there.
Speaker 3 (30:00):
All the time. He'd get them all riled up.
Speaker 4 (30:02):
I mean, h Schwarves got a little bit of showman
in him, and he wears it well. He plays it
well because he's got like this, like you said, this
is like this is this is absolute blue collar to
the max. This guy is down and dirty. He is
he's just He's just a guy. And then all of
a sudden he does all these this this kind of
artsy side of him that you would never possibly expect.
(30:25):
Comes from a family of first responders. It's his foundation
and the work they do. They're spectacular. So there's he's
got all these different levels about him that nobody would
ever expect.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
He also has twenty one home runs this year.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
As I mentioned, we're just getting to the one third
point of the season. This guy's got a legitimate shot
at sixty home runs.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
Kyle Schwerber is thirty three.
Speaker 1 (30:48):
If he's going to hit sixty home runs, he will
be the first player at that age not on peds
to hit sixty. You know, Barry Bonds was thirty six,
Maguire did it at thirty four and thirty five. He
would be the oldest at thirty three in the testing era.
This is amazing when you look at his career. Joe
(31:09):
and I know we've talked before about you know, he's
conquered left handed pitching. He's in a lot of ways
in better shape than he's ever been. When just the
way he carries himself and runs. From his first full
five seasons in the big leagues, he averaged twenty seven
home runs a year. In the last five seasons previous five,
(31:30):
he's averaged forty seven home runs a year.
Speaker 2 (31:35):
How do you explain that to me, Joe, I.
Speaker 4 (31:37):
Honestly believe it's mechanical. I mean it's it's it's you know,
better mental mechanics, but absolutely better physical mechanics.
Speaker 3 (31:44):
Is balanced.
Speaker 4 (31:45):
When he hits the baseball spectacular, he hits he hits
absolute bombs, and he can just stand there and admire
them on the conclusion of his swing because he's not
over swinging, he's staying inside the ball, his head is
staying still, the backside is coming through. He hits him
all over the place, left center, center, right field, right center.
I think it's a big part of it is that
(32:07):
that he's finally got his balance and his stride lentth
and all that stuff is under control. And you combine
that with the mental mechanics. He knows what he's doing
up there now, he knows what he's looking for. You know,
he's gonna go cold once, so he's gonna start punching out.
Everybody's gonna get all upset and wonder what's wrong with Schwarber.
It's like anything else, man, when you play that game.
I just did a gig recently and I talked about
(32:27):
one of the most respectful things. To me, one of
the most difficult things in all sport to do is
to be an everyday player in baseball that nobody you
have no idea, nobody understands what that's like to see
your name on that lineup card.
Speaker 3 (32:40):
I don't even know.
Speaker 4 (32:41):
Let's just say one fifty out of one sixty two
or one fifty five out of one sixty two, and
all the failure involved in that, and all the times
you don't feel good and you go up to the
plate and the ball looks like a p and the
ocean other times looks like a volleyball. It's just there's
all these ups and downs of the season, and when
a guy like him is he's going to absorb the
bad moments. But his confidence is self confidence and is
(33:04):
to shed all that crap and just.
Speaker 3 (33:06):
Keep moving it forward.
Speaker 4 (33:07):
Permits him to strike out, you know, five, six, seven,
out of ten times whatever, and not let it cause
him to blink his eyes because his confidence never really
WANs and then he gets hot like this. So it's
a combination of a lot of things. I think Kevin
Long has been really good for him there. I think
that ballpark. I think Philadelphia is really good for him
because I think there's a natural affinity both sides. It's
(33:30):
an attraction that goes back and forth. It's just like
the perfect spot for him, and that's why I thought
it was wise that they resigned him this year.
Speaker 2 (33:36):
Listen, Kyle doesn't hit too many fence scrapers.
Speaker 3 (33:39):
You know.
Speaker 2 (33:39):
I know the ballpark is great for him. It's a
great hitters ballpark.
Speaker 1 (33:42):
But I think it's more of the comfort with the
city and the team and the group of guys all
of that than it is the ballpark playing into his
hands because, like I said, but he hits them their
way gone. He's able to admire most of the home
runs he hits and stand there and watch. He's a
great fastball hitter. The high fastball he conquered years ago.
Maybe he always did that. A lot of guys do
(34:03):
have trouble with that in the game. And he's in
that age group we talked about to begin with, you
know that thirty one to thirty five where the game
has changed on them. Well, guess what he's conquered it.
I mean, he's better than ever. He's a better hitter
than ever. With the way pitching has changed, has not
been a problem for college Schwerber.
Speaker 2 (34:21):
I'm just so.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
Impressed by, you know, the quality of hisit bats. Now,
I mean when you had him, Joe, I'm sure you
saw the potential there. He could always had that power,
but there was a lot of swing and miss, and
his strike's own discipline has just gotten.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
Better and better over the years.
Speaker 1 (34:39):
I mean, it's a great case study that some guys
do get better as they age.
Speaker 4 (34:42):
Yeah, I mean, for me, the thing that stands out
he would really drift a lot. He was still had
a good eye. He always had a good eye, And
that's why I wanted hit him lead off, because I
always thought that he was going to be a combination
of power and on base percentage. But if I've just
seeing him in mind's eye, left handed, he would get
really heavy on his backside and kind of drift out
where he can be fooled or commit.
Speaker 3 (35:01):
To a pitch too soon.
Speaker 4 (35:03):
But now, I mean, I actually when I'm playing golf
with my driver, I think of him or Aaron Judge
and how they just stay put and rotate and stay
behind the ball.
Speaker 3 (35:12):
So well, that's what he's doing. He gave himself.
Speaker 4 (35:14):
When you do do that that way, you give yourself
more time. And after all, hitting is just about time management.
Speaker 3 (35:20):
It's this this.
Speaker 4 (35:21):
Very brief moment that you have to be able to
control this distance and time and as a picture is
coming towards you, if you want to charge towards the
picture with your body in your hands, you're taking time
away from yourself. He's created more time by the way
his body moves and this and the stride foot and
how it lands and everything stays behind and his head
stays behind. So I just think he's learned how to
(35:42):
manage his time a whole lot better. And with that,
and the same thing with Judge. If you watch Judge Man,
when they show those side videos after you know you
hit a ball really well, you'll see like a little
bit of angle back with his body and you see
there's no drift forward, and that's really that's that's to
me the biggest thing that Shorts has done differently from
the time I had had him with the Cubbies.
Speaker 1 (36:04):
Well, I remember theo Epstein telling me when he drafted
Kyle Schwarber. Remember he was a catcher at Indiana. They
weren't sure where he would play. A national league team,
taking a guy who was a bad first guy back
then there was no universal DH and theo's thought was,
we're going to take him and probably just kind of
figure him out in left field, and we just want him.
(36:27):
Let him put up big poppy numbers, like the bat
was worth it. A big poppy was the comp. You
know what, that's the best comp now for KYLEE.
Speaker 2 (36:35):
Schwarber.
Speaker 1 (36:36):
Kel Schouber may wind up hitting five hundred home runs,
And like David Ortiz, he's getting better as he ages,
because I think it's also part of just being smarter
as a hitter. There's a lot of baseball IQ there,
you know that, Joe.
Speaker 3 (36:51):
Oh there is. He's a great student of the game.
Speaker 4 (36:53):
Like I said, I think he's got this unwavering confidence
because I saw David Ortiz when it was with Minnesota
as a baby before he went to the Red Sox,
and the thing that God that I love about him,
this dude would just foul off two strike pitches that
weren't his to get to the next pitch and then
the one night he hit a home run into the
left field bullpen at Anaheim, which is a pretty good
(37:14):
poke at night, and that that.
Speaker 3 (37:16):
Convinced me when I saw that.
Speaker 4 (37:17):
But it was a combination of his eye, his ability
to foul off the pitcher's pitch to get to the
next pitch, and hopefully his own and his appo power.
Speaker 3 (37:25):
And that's what you know. Kyle probably did not have the.
Speaker 4 (37:30):
Sophistication with fouling off a pitch to get to the
next one younger, but he always had that appo pop.
And now this sophistication is catching up with his bats
of Schwarbs versus Big Poppy. Big Poppy just had that
in his DNA man, and all of a sudden he
goes to Boston and he blooms, even though he was
on the verge of doing that with Minnesota when I
(37:50):
had seen him there. So it's a great comp It's
it's absolutely accurate and got a like you just mentioned.
I saw Schwarbs during the Cup convention this year in January. Gosh,
he almost looked smaller and he but he was in
great shape. You know, there's definitely he leaned out. He
looks really good. Hey, he knows, he knows what's going on,
(38:11):
and he you know, he's in the at the point of,
you know, realizing a nice payoff, which you received. But
you can pay a guy like Schwerber and that's not
going to change him, that's going to make him better.
Speaker 1 (38:22):
Well, I promised you a great quote about analytics, and
it actually.
Speaker 2 (38:25):
Comes from a coach.
Speaker 1 (38:28):
We're going to get to that right after this on
the Book of Joe. Welcome back to the Book of Joe.
Kenny Atkins, Cleveland having Lear's coach. You know him, right, Joe.
(38:50):
You've heard about Kenny Atkinson, Yes, yes, yes, actually covered
him as a high school player. Who's a high school
player at Northport High School on Long Island. I was
at Newsday. That's how far back I go. Anyway, the
Cavaliers were in the process, as it turned out, of
getting swept by your New York Knicks, and it was
(39:11):
after the third game. They're down oh three, and Kenny
Atkinson's actually at this press conference says, analytically, we're two
out of three in the expected outcome, we've won two
out of three.
Speaker 3 (39:27):
That's so funny, that is so funny.
Speaker 1 (39:29):
And he looked up in the room of course, everybody's like,
what is this dude talking about your in the process
of getting swept Here you're trying to tell me we
should think that you've won two of the first three
based on analytics, And he said, listen, I know you're
looking confused, but if you believe in the process and
all that, I know you don't want to hear it,
(39:50):
but we've won two out of three. I mean, come on,
you just cannot say that. We understand the point. You
can find whatever number you want to justify or explain.
Speaker 2 (40:03):
Why you're down three to zero.
Speaker 1 (40:05):
You cannot get in front of a microphone and tell
the media that analytically you've won two out of every
three games when you've lost three in a row. I mean,
we've talked a lot about execut you speak, Joe. It's
rare when I hear a coach or a manager laps
into that.
Speaker 4 (40:24):
Yeah, that's that's there's reality, and then there's that wow.
Speaker 3 (40:28):
I mean, that's.
Speaker 4 (40:29):
That's probably the highest level of rationalization possible, the fact
that you lost but you won.
Speaker 1 (40:34):
And he actually did say, I'm sure you know nobody
wants to hear this.
Speaker 2 (40:39):
Well, don't say it then.
Speaker 3 (40:40):
Of course not.
Speaker 4 (40:41):
I mean how could you possibly I listen, the guys
had a great year of coaching when he came from
the nets before that, right, and he's done a nice
job with everything. But don't say that. Just don't say that.
It means nothing. It literally means nothing. There's you could
talk about that in a meeting and you could somehow
gain solace in the fact that we lost. But man,
(41:01):
we played really well. And then you substainiate, you know,
whether your game plan was about you could substantiate the
people you chose. But here comes the analytical inability to
measure heart and desire and performance on the court in
the moment.
Speaker 3 (41:15):
And why did the Knicks just kick their butt? I
mean kick their butt?
Speaker 4 (41:18):
And if you watch the game last night, don't tell
me analytically they won that game.
Speaker 3 (41:22):
They were just barely making it up and down the court.
Speaker 4 (41:24):
So it's just a it's a bad method, it's a gosh,
that's something that again, keep it in your own personal boardroom.
Don't say it out loud. Everybody can hear you, because
that really plays poorly.
Speaker 1 (41:35):
Yeah, especially to your fan base, that's the last thing
they want to hear. Absolutely, it takes some accountability. That's
what they want to hear. You know, I think when
a coach gets in that situation, I get it, he's
trying to justify it, and there probably is some numbers
you can look at, but you can look at all
these numbers. Like what really bothers me is when people
in the industry in baseball talk about media and some
(41:57):
people actually in uniform talk about the luck factor in baseball,
like to look at the expected batting average or the
exit velocity, and they'll say, he's unlucky. It's bound to change.
Stop it. It's not luck. It's just the residue of
what baseball is. And it doesn't mean it's going to
(42:19):
turn around. It doesn't mean you're just hitting in bad luck.
You're having a bad year. Things aren't falling. I get it,
it happens, but don't try to explain it to me
as the residue of quote unquote luck. I hate hearing
that players are either lucky because they have a high
batting average on balls and play, or they're unlucky because
they don't and things are due to turn around.
Speaker 4 (42:39):
Reality versus the people that want to change history in
some way or change the outcome to fit.
Speaker 3 (42:47):
Probably most of the time.
Speaker 4 (42:48):
With they thought would have occurred, and they're going to
stick to that, Like you're saying, they can't even admit
we is it wrong.
Speaker 3 (42:54):
I don't know if you're wrong. I don't know if
that's the right word. But it didn't happen that way.
Speaker 4 (42:58):
Revision is historians to me are so boring. The only
time I you know what, I like, revision is history.
It's like eleven twenty two sixty three when Stephen King
wrote that revision is historian moment about the jfk assassination.
Speaker 3 (43:11):
That was brilliant.
Speaker 4 (43:12):
I love that because I knew it was fiction. I
could play it all the way through and you could
just you know, have fun with something like that. But
when you start doing revision is history regarding actual athletic events,
the moment like postwarningly after like ten minutes or an
hour after the game or the next day, stop just stop.
(43:33):
You could talk about things that could have possibly gone differently,
but that's that's they didn't. They didn't go differently. This
is the way the game was played. And I just
I like the idea of reporting on how the game
was played and not necessarily trying to flip the script.
Had this happened instead, it did happen that way. I'm like,
so practical with that, and so because I know as
an athlete when I stunk, when you when you screwed
(43:56):
something up, you never tried to revise it in a way. Well,
if I had done this better, No, you didn't.
Speaker 3 (44:01):
Do it better. Okay, go to the practice range.
Speaker 4 (44:04):
To go to batting practice range, you know, stay after
with the wide receivers. Afterwards, get a couple more reps,
get the ball in the air before they complete their break,
things like that's where's my spot? Where the linebackers get
that done in advance of the moment, But don't tell
me how or why the game. In my mind's eye, well,
(44:24):
if this had happened, or if somebody had done this differently,
of course, of course, but that is not real and
people that deal with that all the time drive me crazy.
Speaker 2 (44:34):
And fans don't want to hear it. No, you know,
they really don't.
Speaker 1 (44:37):
I mean, if you go to a baseball game and
you sit in the stands, nobody is talking about analytics
in the stands, that's right. And listen, I like the
numbers as much as anybody. We all do, and we
want information. I get that, But to explain something away
to your fan base based on analytics, nobody wants to
hear that.
Speaker 2 (44:54):
I mean nobody. They want accountability.
Speaker 4 (44:57):
And you know, one of my conclusions is that analytics
provides a safety net for decision making. Voila, there you
have it right there, whatever decisions are made, the game plan,
like I said, whatever, whatever, whatever, So there's a safety
that you know, analytically, we did everything we're supposed to
and actually it was a little bit better than the
result actually indicated. So thus we're going to stay with
(45:18):
the analytical process. And listen, I'm all about the process.
I am big on process. I think when you stick
with your process over a course of time, if you're
good and the process is a good one, at the
end of the year, whatever the sport may be, you
should have more wins in that wind pile than you
have losses in the loss pile.
Speaker 3 (45:37):
After all, that's what we're all about.
Speaker 4 (45:39):
And if you're able to stay with that process in
a bad moment when things aren't right or you're just
not feeling it kind of like an anchor to hold
on to, like a little rope to hang onto that
keeps going from going to the quick sand it's a
good thing.
Speaker 3 (45:55):
It's a good thing.
Speaker 4 (45:56):
That process is a good thing. But at the end
of the day, it's performance that counts. And everybody in
the world today just relies too much on data analytics
and the fact that it's omnipotent, that it's infoulble.
Speaker 3 (46:10):
It's not. It's not.
Speaker 4 (46:11):
It's basically somebody's opinion analytics. It's just about putting this
cocktail together that you run through a machine that a
lot has a lot of your own personal biases, organizational
biases is in it in order to come to conclusion
because they change all the time.
Speaker 3 (46:25):
It's like diets.
Speaker 4 (46:26):
It's like with the American Medical Associations raised the standards
for blood pressure, whereas a couple of years ago was
completely different. It changes. It just changes based on perceived
and I guess it's science to a certain extent. But
the side when the science keeps changing, it's like religions
that change. I have a hard time with that. Religion
should be tough and not easy in my mind's eye.
(46:47):
So anyhow, off on another tangent, so I reality versus
vision is historians man stick with reality. It's a lot,
it's authentic and it's real.
Speaker 2 (46:58):
Well, we get nothing but the truth from you, Joe Madden.
Speaker 1 (47:01):
Here on the Book of Joe, there's no there's no disassembling,
there's no rationalization, and so I know you always give
us nothing but the truth, especially to end these episodes.
Speaker 2 (47:12):
What do you have as for us today on the
Book of Joe.
Speaker 4 (47:14):
Well, honestly, you know, watching my videos in the morning
and this celebratory manner is really starting to work in
on me, even to the point now where guys after
home and have to recognize everybody in the bullpen. How
much time do these guys spend on all these these
indicators and signs to include everybody in this joyful moment?
Speaker 1 (47:37):
Ack you, thank you, thank you for bringing that up.
I've had the same reaction watching this come on.
Speaker 4 (47:43):
Okay, recently, a good friend and a great player at GA,
Garrett Anderson passed away and GA was as stoic as
it came. GA was the same cat, through good or bad,
and GA was really good. Check out the video of
the seventh game of the World Series and hits his
bullet on the right field line against was Hernandez and
(48:03):
Angels end up winning four to one. But watch his
reaction as he's standing at second base. Done it before,
I'm gonna do it again.
Speaker 3 (48:09):
So odd. It's the seventh game of the World Series.
I just I'm so over it.
Speaker 4 (48:14):
I'm looking for the team that just goes the opposite,
the team that doesn't celebrate. They just hit a home run,
they cross on plate, they shake hands, and they get
to the dugout, they shake somebody sound. They don't put
on a coat, they don't they don't go through all
these and listen, I'm part of the I'm part of
the responsible for this happening in the first place. I
get it, but it's gone too far. It's like everything else, analytics,
(48:34):
everything goes too far. You just can't get enough of
a bad thing. It sounds like so with that, I
had a couple things here. The most dangerous time to
celebrate is the moment you think.
Speaker 3 (48:43):
You've already won. I mean, what do you right.
Speaker 4 (48:45):
It's like the fourth Indian you're losing by seven or
eight runs, somebody hits the home run, and all of
a sudden, they're pointing at they're pointing out relief pitchers.
They come inside, they're wearing jackets. Whatever they're putting on helmets.
I do like the traffic coneer with the Pirates.
Speaker 3 (48:59):
I gotta admit that.
Speaker 4 (49:00):
So wait, and I'm all about celebrating accomplishment. Stop stop,
stop the madness, Let the kids play. That's not what
was meant by all of this. It's a really it's
becoming borish behavior. I'd much prefer see professionals be professionals,
you know, celebrate when it's all over. Okay, the ice bucket, whatever.
(49:21):
But we had a celebration room in Chicago. We had
a celebration room in Tampa Bay. The whole room, the
whole clubhouse was There was a disco ball, there was
loud music, there was instruments. Game over in your clubhouse
by yourself. Wait, wait, wait till the game's over. I'd
much prefer that.
Speaker 1 (49:37):
I'm glad you brought that up, because it is stopped
long ago being organic. It's contrived, right, So there's almost
like a peer pressure aspect to it where everybody now
has to acknowledge the bullpen.
Speaker 2 (49:50):
What is that about? Anyway?
Speaker 1 (49:52):
If you're a relief pitcher sitting out there in the
third inning, you know, spit in your sunflower seeds? Are
you going to be upset if a guy doesn't acknowledge
you when he hits a home run?
Speaker 2 (50:01):
What does that have to do with relief pitching.
Speaker 1 (50:04):
I don't get it, and the whole we have to
find some kind of head gear or let's have our
own home run celebration, no matter what the score. There's
almost an obligation now to contrive something. That's what I
don't like about it. It's not organic, it's contrived. It's
a can you top this world? Be your own person,
do your own thing. You're telling me that everybody who
(50:25):
HiT's a home run thinks it's cool to acknowledge relief.
Speaker 2 (50:30):
Pictures in the bullpen.
Speaker 1 (50:31):
Everybody, No, everybody has to do it now because of
the peer pressure aspect.
Speaker 2 (50:36):
I don't get it. I'm not sure where it came from.
Speaker 1 (50:38):
I don't really care where it came from, right, but man,
I jumped the shark long ago.
Speaker 4 (50:43):
Even even when they get on base and they got
to look at the dugout and then they got to
acknowledge them to all that.
Speaker 1 (50:48):
He let's have our secret society hand signal.
Speaker 4 (50:53):
Come on God, Like I said, I think I was
part of the genesis of all that with Tim Buss
and Bussy Stole is the best he's with the angels.
Speaker 3 (51:01):
But anyway, let's let's just tone it down.
Speaker 4 (51:03):
Let's let's get let's go the opposite direction for a
while and see if like we don't do anything except
shake somebody's hand or give them a fist pump whatever. See,
I see how that works. But this other side of
it's gotten way over the top. And like you said,
it's inauthentic, and anything non organic or inauthentic really turns
me off.
Speaker 1 (51:21):
Yeah, and it's not a matter of you know, being
the fun police here and saying stop, get off my
lawn all that. But we're seeing guys. Now you get
an infield single, you have to give us a hand
signal to dugout, like look at me, aren't we great?
Speaker 2 (51:34):
Right, that's the problem here.
Speaker 1 (51:36):
Like you said, you've taken something that was cool in
special moments, and it's not special.
Speaker 2 (51:43):
It's just you know, overdone too much.
Speaker 3 (51:46):
I'm with you.
Speaker 2 (51:47):
Well, let's get to work on that. Let's uh.
Speaker 1 (51:50):
I don't know what we can do about it, but
it's it's gone a little bit too far.
Speaker 4 (51:55):
Just well, just keep preaching organic baseball or excuse me,
analog baseball.
Speaker 3 (51:59):
We'll see if we can bring it on back to
where it had.
Speaker 2 (52:01):
I like organic baseball too, so that's plug organic.
Speaker 3 (52:05):
Bring it on.
Speaker 2 (52:06):
It's kind of like your garden.
Speaker 4 (52:08):
That's right, and that's I'm gonna attend to that right
when we get done here.
Speaker 1 (52:11):
All right, we'll let you get on the tiller and
go do your tilling. See you next time on the
Book of Joe.
Speaker 3 (52:16):
See you brother.
Speaker 2 (52:25):
The Book of.
Speaker 1 (52:26):
Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts
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