May 12, 2026 • 49 mins
The baseball season is at the quarter pole and hosts Joe Maddon and Tom Verducci point out the surprises we've seen. What will sort itself out and what is a real issue? Tom points out a possible hitting 'slump' for Shohei Ohtani and how it affects the Dodgers. Plus, we honor the legacy of 2x World Series Champion and 4x Manager of the Year Bobby Cox.
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
The Book of Joe Podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.
Hey Daron, Welcome back to the Book of Joe Podcast
with Me, Tom Berducci and Joe Meddon and Joe.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Believe it or not, we are a quarter.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
Of the way through the baseball season. Can you believe
that we're at the quarter pole already?
Speaker 3 (00:28):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (00:29):
You know what happens at spring training. It always starts
out so it's just too long. Spring Training's too long,
and you always hear those kind of refrains, and I
always thought it was just a right amount of time.
But the point is it starts slowly, but my god,
when it gains momentum the season, that is before you
know it. You keep ripping off calendar pages and it's
August and it's September. It's just the way this thing works.
(00:49):
It always starts out slowly, but once it gains momentum,
it starts rolling heads up.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
I'm here to tell you too. And you know this, Joe,
that the first quarter of the season. I know people
love to say it's early, but you know, narratives and
patterns get established.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Good teams tend to rise to the top early.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
I went back and I looked at last year, what
teams were in playoff position on this date? Okay, how
many teams out of the twelve do you think we're
in playoff position and we're still there at the.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
End of the season.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
I say ten or eleven?
Speaker 1 (01:24):
Almost nine? Nine of the twelve teams. The only teams
that were in playoff position after quarter of the season
that did not make the playoffs Kansas City, the Mets,
and the Giants. So nine out of your twelve teams
only a quarter of the way through the season had
already surfaced as a playoff team.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
That to me is a lot to say that.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
You know, there's not a whole lot of turnover in
the last three quarters of the season, is there?
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Short?
Speaker 1 (01:50):
And we love to focus on the outliers and the
comebacks and the way teams played down the stretch, the
way you know Cleveland did, the way Detroit did a
couple of years ago. That's why Joe, I want to
bring up a team with the second best record in baseball.
They're a surprise, a major surprise, especially when you see
they are last in the major leagues in extra base percentage,
(02:13):
they're twenty sixth in home runs. That team is your
Tampa Bay Rays off to a twenty seven and thirteen start.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
Are they surprising you, Joe.
Speaker 3 (02:27):
I guess you'd have to say they are a bit,
but not.
Speaker 4 (02:31):
I watched them often now, and first of all, they
have a definite analog baseball look about him the kids Simpson.
I'm absolutely in love with what he's doing there and
how he's doing He's still the third base. Last night
catcher throws the ball in the left field. That's just
that's just demoralizing to that team. They're not afraid to bunt,
they play great defense, their their bullpen has almost been
(02:54):
unhittable with a bunch of names you don't even know again,
so they're just playing typical Tampa Tampa Raay Tampa Bay
Race baseball. You know, started out as Devil Ray baseball.
So yeah, it's it's surprising, but it's not. I I
they just got to keep doing them. I think I
made this point earlier people talking about how to use
supplant the Dodgers in the NL West. You don't do
(03:17):
it by playing their game. They're going to beat you
at their game. You got to got to play a
different version of the same game or something that had
been done in the past. Where you're utilizing all your abilities,
all your talents, and that's what the Rays have done,
and they go they're starting.
Speaker 3 (03:31):
Pitching has been pretty good.
Speaker 4 (03:32):
Too, So yes, I when you got a zig when
others are zagging, or vice versa.
Speaker 3 (03:37):
Whatever.
Speaker 4 (03:37):
But they're doing exactly what they need to do to
to kick the Yankees in the shins, kick Toronto in
the shins, et cetera. They got Gosman last night, Gosmin
the second time he saw them in a short period
of time. But they were all over. They weren't they
weren't chasing, They're on top of his stuff. The splitter
was not as pertinent because they just weren't.
Speaker 3 (03:58):
Going for it. So yes, I I like it. I
think it's great.
Speaker 4 (04:04):
That really dovetails into our analog baseball theme and I
want to seem to be successful all year.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
Yeah, you're perfectly You're dead on right there with the
way they play baseball. And I would argue, Joe, it's
a little bit counter to what we've seen from the
Rays in recent years and the fact that they were
one of these teams that dives deeply into analytics. They
sure still do, of course, but the analog baseball component listen.
I never thought I would see a day, which is
a day today where the Rays have more sacrifice hits
(04:33):
than any team in baseball. They lead the major leagues
in bunts. You know, back in the day, as you know, Joe,
the analytics crowd hated the butt.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
Why are you giving up it out? Well, you nailed it.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
The way they play baseball now, the Tampa Bay Rays
have the number one contact rate in Major League Baseball.
They have the second lowest strikeout rate in Major League Baseball.
So when I talked about this team doesn't hit home runs,
they don't get extra base hits.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
You know what.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
They move runners, They put the ball in play. They
have the speed to take advantage of any kind of
mistakes or slow play on defense.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
So yeah, it is analog baseball.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
It's not quite White Herzog's Cardinals, but they've got that
element to them.
Speaker 3 (05:15):
Why wouldn't you.
Speaker 4 (05:16):
I mean that ballpark, that ballpark can play like a
mausoleum too. You know, there's there's no win whatever, but
that ballpark from gap to gap gets really big, and
you want to play your best version of yourself right there.
Analytics changes, That's the whole thing about it. People don't
understand that everybody analytics, Like I've talked about this in
the past when it was so naive when it first
came on board, the version of the term, I thought
(05:38):
it was infallible.
Speaker 3 (05:39):
I thought it was like there.
Speaker 4 (05:40):
Was this analytics and it was like always perfect, it's
never wrong. I really thought that when I first started
getting into in the two thousand and five sixty the
updated version. My version of it was the version I
started like nineteen ninety five to the time I got
to the rays, which was my own methods. But three
to zero counts. I used to have an argument with
Andrew about a three to zero count. He hated when
(06:02):
I gave him the green light on a three account,
and I said, listen, if there's two outs and nobody on,
why did you look for a double or better?
Speaker 3 (06:08):
Right there?
Speaker 4 (06:09):
I want, if I know this guy, kid it doubles
are better with two outs and nobody on. I want
him swinging at that three to zero pitch if he
likes it, and see if you could put it in
the seats.
Speaker 3 (06:17):
Whatever.
Speaker 4 (06:18):
As an example, elevated fastballs they're popular. They still are
to a certain extent, but now you're seeing a lot
more sinkers, the sweeper, the fact that offspeed pitches have
overtaken fastballs, all the different things that evolve as we
move the thing forward. But understand that analytics will change,
and they do change, and sometimes they go from this
(06:38):
progressive or futuristic method of baseball they go back to
try it and true.
Speaker 3 (06:43):
So that's what we're seeing.
Speaker 4 (06:46):
And just back to a point you made on the
last segment about the team starting out well or the
teams that eventually make the playoffs. It's hard to turn
on a switch right now, even at this point of
the sea. If you have not been playing good baseball
and all of a sudden you want to start playing
good baseball, it's very difficult. Unless you get an in
few somehow, maybe guys have been hurt, get well, you know,
(07:08):
you possibly make a trader. You got a youngster that
comes up that all of a sudden makes an incredible difference.
So if you're not been playing well and things are
static or the same, it's hard to imagine that you're
going to start playing well all of a sudden.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
Yeah, that sounds to be like It definitely applies to
the New York Mets bringing up prospect Aja Ewing. They
already have their other top prospect, benj in the major leagues.
We'll see what happens if they get a spark there.
But getting back to the rais you mentioned it, and
this is a big point to me. Playing in the trap.
They're back home. They were totally lost last year playing
(07:40):
in a minor league ballpark with that pitching, right.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
I mean, the balls were just flying out of that place.
That's not how they play.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
There's something about the trap, and you know this, Joe,
that they take advantage of. I know they've got newer
lighting in there now a lot of things have been redone,
but that plays to me, plays like a pitcher's park,
at least in the raised hands, and they know what
to do with pitching. Kyle Snyder, the pitching coach there,
does an amazing job. But doing it again this year.
I mean, you got Brian Baker closing games, throwing ninety
(08:07):
nine miles an hour. You got Nick Martinez who's pitching
like an ace with an era under two. They do
this every year, and you know this, Joe, You've seen it.
They pick up these guys from other organizations and they're
better with Tampa than they are anywhere else. The rotation
has been great. Shane McClanahan. Really good to see him
back after a couple of lost years to injuries. Drew Marasmussen.
(08:29):
They're third in the Major leagues and era their starters,
behind only the Braves and the Yankees. And here's the
Kyle Schnyder calling card. They're third in the Major leagues
and strike percentage, and they're second in the Major leagues
in first pitch strike percentage. They preach that big time
their first pitch. They're big on that. They're actually big
(08:50):
on winning the count. After three pitches. Batter either should
be out or you should have count leverage after three.
Throwing a first pitch strike is no good if your
next two pitches are out of the zone and you're
pitching from behind.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
But they're doing it again, Joe.
Speaker 1 (09:04):
There's something about pitching, and especially in that ballpark there.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
I missed them a little bit.
Speaker 1 (09:10):
I knew going back home, Joe, they'd played better, because
I do think just fits the way they pitch.
Speaker 2 (09:15):
But they're a lot better team than I thought.
Speaker 4 (09:18):
Love the one one count is really what it comes
down to. You always want to turn the one one
count into a one to two count of the ball
and play and becomes it out on that third pitch.
Speaker 3 (09:27):
I love that.
Speaker 4 (09:28):
The thing about the different folks walking in the door
there when a pitcher, anybody, but especially pictures when they
walk in the door, guys that they've acquired somehow, regardless
of the vehicle, they have a plan for them. You
walk in the door. Hey, hey, Tom, great to have
you here. Look, this is what we've noticed about you.
We think you need to do this instead, and we
really believe if you do do this instead, you have
(09:50):
a pretty good chance of being successful. What do you
think that's I was there. I mean, he was there
for so many of those moments, even even like with
Jake McGee was there. And Jake was already a part
of the fabric.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
He was.
Speaker 4 (10:03):
He was a high elevated fastball pitcher and and and
man he great at it, you know, he was wonderful.
And I used to put him on right handed hitters,
like when we played the Angels.
Speaker 3 (10:11):
I wanted him on Troti all the time.
Speaker 4 (10:13):
But there was there was even like some peers saying, hey,
he's got to get that fastball down, and I say, no,
he doesn't, No, he doesn't. That's who he is. That's
how he needs to pitch to be successful. Because if
you and this is where analytics versus analog can be good,
because sometimes, like the old pitching coaches would just want
the ball down, period because that's what we had been
(10:33):
taught to do. But there's some guys pitching wise, that
live better up in his own for various reasons, and
there's just a great carry to their pitch, and when
they try to throw the ball down, they become more
hittable because a hitter can already or now they can
catch up to that velocity. As an example, so you
walk into in the Tampa Ray Tampa Bay Ray door
and you're going to have a nice little schematic here
(10:56):
instructional booklet on how to get better. And that's that's
that's really I've seen it, Joe Joel Peralta when we
got it from the he's another guy, all these guys
that walked in the door. Pralta I talked about this.
Eric Heander came up with the idea of the thought
based on his studies that if he threw a first
pitch break and ball strike. If Pralta did do that,
(11:18):
the batting average against him would be something like one
twenty five. That was just something that we figured out
or he figured out. And then of course he was
a great reverse split gun and put him on lefties
all the time, and if there comes a arriety, you
bring him in, they pinch it for him.
Speaker 3 (11:31):
It works in our favor. These are the kind of
things that they do well.
Speaker 4 (11:35):
Anybody can do that, but you have to have that
that miner's nature that we can just dig, dig, dig
and figure this kind of stuff out, and that's what
they do.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
Hey, there was also a little bit of strange a site,
a strange site the other night in Los Angeles, Shoheo
Tani was out there early taking BP.
Speaker 3 (11:54):
Joe.
Speaker 1 (11:54):
First of all, he doesn't hit on the field much
as you know, if at all, and this was not
in a group in the normal VP rounds.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
This was actually early hitting on the field.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
I mean, I don't know if I've ever seen that before,
and from every indication it wasn't a great session. He's
clearly working on something. It's hard to imagine, but it's
true that he is in a slump. Last eleven games,
He's four for thirty eight, no home runs. And what
I say, Joe is a ton of ground balls, and
(12:29):
especially to the pole side. He's lost the ability right
now in these last couple of weeks to just stay
on pitches and lose balls.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
As you said Joe in the Rocks back in Anaheim.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
But that left center field power, the big part of
the field, I'll throw center field in there as well,
has gone missing this year and it's been replaced by
his highest percentage of.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
Ground balls in his career. Listen, he's human. We all
know that.
Speaker 1 (12:54):
Sometimes we have to remind ourselves he's so darn good.
But when show he's not going, you know, the Dodgers
don't look like the same team. He's their leadoff hitter,
he's going to get five played peer Yarns as a Knight,
and if he's not getting on base and he's not lately,
the Dodgers look like a different team.
Speaker 4 (13:09):
It happens to some really good left ten hitters on
occasion they get into that pool ground ball mode. You know,
when the shift was in vogue and we're able to
do it. It really would play with their heads a lot.
Sometimes would exacerbate the issue, just because by trying not
to do you do it even more. I think Kyle
Tucker kind of got into that last year a bit.
Speaker 3 (13:28):
It happens. It just happens.
Speaker 4 (13:29):
You know, you really want to you want to let
the ball travel more deeply, you want to stay inside
the ball, you want to drive it to left central.
But here comes the game and all of a sudden,
you're quick and you get out in front of everything
and you start rolling your hands too soon. It happens.
It just happens. I'm betting on him. I'm betting he
figures this out, and I think when he does, he's
going to come back with a vengeance. But you're right
that the Dodgers will always suffer when he's not at
(13:52):
his best. You know, there's a great lineup, there's a
lot of good players there, but you need that the straw,
like Reggie used to be right, You need that straw
sturing the whole drink there. And that's what he is.
But again, people don't get don't get too concerned. You know,
you could be mildly concerned if you like, just because
it's happening. But he's going to work his way out
(14:13):
of it. He's gonna come back, he's gonna start driving
the ball the left central gap. I saw it that
first year I had him with the Angels. Just sometimes
he just gets into that mode, but he'll figure it
out and everything's going to be just fine.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
Yeah, it's interesting that there are certain guys and you know,
this Joe, that can affect the rest of the lineup
positively and negatively. I saw Tony Vtello talking about Rafael Devers,
who actually has started to wake up the last week
or so, and I know early this season I talked
with Tony and he talked about how you know, when
he's not going, it really does affect the other hitters
(14:47):
in the lineup. There's a certain vibe when your big
hitter gets going and they're getting a little bit of life.
Now that he is hitting, you've got the thumper in
the middle of the lineup and everybody can just go
back to playing their roles. It sounds simple, but Joe,
but you've seen it in practice. And I actually think
with Showhy as the leadoff hitter, you know, he's got
such this vibe to him, for lack of a better word,
(15:10):
that when you see him in this rare situation where
he's not hitting, I do think it has a negative
effect on the rest of the lineup.
Speaker 4 (15:19):
It does Aaron Judge with the Yankees and my god,
and when every time he goes in a slump towards
the end of the year, obviously and makes it more
difficult for them.
Speaker 3 (15:26):
And you could.
Speaker 4 (15:27):
Recount each team and pick out one guy that's the
lynchpin of the whole lineup, and it always that way,
and right, a classic leadoff hitter man when you're a classic,
you know, maybe show he's not classic in a sense,
but he is in today's world. But when that guy struggles,
it does impact the rest. I mean when that first
guy goes up there and hangs out a rope or
it takes out like a seven or eight pitch walk,
(15:48):
and all of a sudden, the other guys are going
to benefit from it.
Speaker 3 (15:50):
In the lineup, that is so invaluable.
Speaker 4 (15:53):
And in today's game, with these these power guys, weren't
the top of the lineup. You're really trying to get that.
But we'll take that first hitter, first pitch home run.
It happens often these days. It just does something. It
just kick starts the mentality of the entire group normally,
So yes, no.
Speaker 3 (16:07):
Question about that.
Speaker 4 (16:09):
When your best guys are suffering, it's just it just
in an uneven way, just not really intentionally obviously, the
other guys.
Speaker 3 (16:19):
Just feel it.
Speaker 4 (16:20):
And then when your guys going, well, oh my god,
everybody believes they're gonna go up there and hit a
line drive somewhere. It just it just the way the
baseball world works. We have our our moments are you know, weeks,
weeks or maybe two weeks or even a month where
everything's falling into place and everybody's like like the Raiser
going through right now, and the Yankees had been for
a bit right now too, and then eventually you look
(16:43):
forward to even out a bit. So it's just the
ebb and flow of the baseball season. It's what makes
the game so interesting when we have to talk about
really good players that are struggling, and then when they're
really being glorious as themselves, all of a sudden, the
world is finding in and that's what's gonna happen. But
show's gonna be good and the Dodgs are gonna be
just fine.
Speaker 2 (16:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
Absolutely, The fact that he's this call just tells you
that he's going to be this hot, and that's Covenant
sad news. We'll get to after a quick break here, Joe,
we lost one of the greatest managers of all time.
That's not an exaggeration at all. We'll talk about Bobby
Cox right after this Welcome back to the Book of Joe.
(17:34):
Bobby Cox was one of those guys Joe, I know
he had a brief major league career, would really he
worked in the front office in Toronto and Atlanta, did
a great.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
Job both places.
Speaker 1 (17:44):
But one of those guys, to me, was born to
be a major league manager. Right the other day, I
wrote about Bobby and I compared him to Marcus Aurelius
being a stoic.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
And the fact that Bobby Cox had a lot of power.
Speaker 1 (18:01):
You know, if you were Atlanta Brave and you came
to that team, you did not play music in the
clubhouse after a game. You do not play music before
a game. If you want to listen to music, you
put headphones on. Because the music is not universal to
players on the team. Some might like it your choice,
some might not. So that was his way of dealing
with If you were wearing sunglasses on your cap, it
(18:23):
had to be backwards because he never wanted the A
on the Atlanta Braves cap to be covered. So did
he run a tight ship? Maybe in terms of today's game.
But I think the reason I compared him to a
stoic was that he accumulated this power, but it was
all about the team.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
It was never for personal power.
Speaker 1 (18:44):
He backed players as much as anybody I've ever been around.
When I say that, that term players manager, which I
kind of don't like because it's got this connotation of
you run a loose ship and guys can do whatever
they want. When I think about players manager, I think
a guy like Bobby Cox who backed his players to
the nth degree.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
I remember Tom Glavine.
Speaker 1 (19:04):
He would throw some games, and it was only occasionally,
of course, Tom Glavin Hall of Famer. He'd have a
bad game, command was nowhere near what it should be,
get banged around a little bit, and the next day
he would read in the paper the quotes from Bobby
Cox about how Tommy Glavin threw the ball. Great, he
was a little bit unlucky. A call here or there
changes the whole game. He's like Bobby was watching a
different game than me, But that was him, you know,
(19:27):
he backed his players no matter what. People loved playing
for Bobby Cox, and that's why I say he's one
of the greatest advantages of all time. Yes, he's got
the prolific numbers in terms of wins. I think he's
fourth all time, third all time, a fourth all time
and wins and games managed. Only Joe McCarthy and Bobby
Cox have a high winning percentage managing more than thirty
(19:49):
five hundred games. You can go on and on, but
to me, his legacy is that he was a player's manager.
And ask anybody who played for him, and they love
Bobby Cox.
Speaker 4 (19:58):
Yeah, I think it comes down to he promoted personal accountability.
And the reason why I say that at the Braves
they're batting practice routine, their scheduled. This is and I
tried this when I was with the Rays for a
bit too. Okay, say say BP started at four forty
five or four to fifty, whatever it was on the
on the board, on the schedule, you were you were
(20:19):
responsible to get yourself loose before that time, whatever it was,
whether it was in the weight room wherever you wanted
to stretch left field, right field with three guys, five guys,
the whole group, whatever. But at four forty five or
four point fifty, they would just walk out there and
batting practice would begin.
Speaker 3 (20:34):
But they were they were.
Speaker 4 (20:35):
Held accountable to be ready to begin batting practice at
four forty five or four fifty. I loved that because
but really the stretching session had devolved into just, you know,
kind of a social gathering, which I guess has its
its place also, But and if you want to use
it for that, fine, just just just label it as
our social gathering pre BP, or just say batting practice
(20:59):
is going to start at four forty five. You know,
just if you're the first group, you're in the first
group to get in your ground balls, a shortstop, get
out there. I love that, and again I think the
players love that too, because it permitted them to get
ready in their own way.
Speaker 3 (21:12):
You've already described it.
Speaker 4 (21:13):
I don't think there was any eyewash involvement here whatsoever.
Nothing was done just to ameliorate anybody else's concerns or
even the industrial concerns. He was just there was the
Atlanta Braves. How we do things here? They circle their wagons,
and that was it. I think he had kind of
a little bit of a dress code where you had
to wear a collared shirt. Also, fine, this is just
(21:35):
things out of his past, and they were very they
were simple, and there are very few of them, which
is easy for a group to follow.
Speaker 3 (21:42):
So the personal accountability, no eyewash.
Speaker 4 (21:45):
And of course he was one of a kind, and
he is like one of the last vestiges of when
authenticity and experience mattered and morphing them together. Authentic personality,
authentic man authentic character, every you want to label it,
and experience. All the mentors that he had had uh
to that point when he became a manager, we're we're
(22:07):
on an exhibit, exhibition whenever he managed the game, because
that's how we learned. We learned from these people that
we that we considered our mentors, our greatest teachers coming
up in the game of baseball. That was that's what
he did, and that's what he showed him manifest And
last point, listen to his players and you just already
mentioned it, Amen, They will tell you what they thought
(22:29):
of Bobby Cox. You don't have to read anything else.
You have to read any articles about him, you don't
have to any you know, tributes to him. Whatever what
his player said or are saying, that just screams at
me and it validates and backs up everything you just said.
Speaker 3 (22:45):
And that's who he was.
Speaker 4 (22:46):
I didn't know him that well. I met him a
couple of times, easy to like him. The conversation was
always positive, as you indicated. So yeah, I again not
knowing him well, but from a distance, always had most
respect for him.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
One are my treats covering this game. There was a
room off the the walkway the tunnel from the clubhouse
down to the field both at Atlanta Fulton County Stadium
and Turner Field. Essentially it was a groundskeepers area, but
they turned it into what they called Bobby's room.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
That's where Bobby would hang out.
Speaker 1 (23:17):
There'd be a television there with whether radar was up
all the time. I'd love going in there for a
night game in Atlanta and maybe the Cubs game was
playing on his TV in that office there, and he
would invite you in there.
Speaker 2 (23:30):
It was a very small room. It was not a
lounge at all. It was very smart in place.
Speaker 1 (23:35):
So basically if you went in there, it was just
the room for the two of you. So we'd sit
there and watch a game and just talk baseball. And
Bobby Cox the minute he got dressed for a game,
he dressed like a players.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
I equate it to being an army general or a
navy admiral.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
When you put that uniform on, it's a uniform that
demands respect. So Bobby Cox would always wear the jersey,
and how many managers are wearing cut off hoodies and
whatnot this year these days? Always the jersey, always the cap,
always spikes. He managed folks, always spikes, always stirrups. And
he just loved to talk baseball. And he's one of
(24:13):
these guys than listen. I probably told him nothing over
the years that was of any use to him, but
he would ask questions. And I like Pat Gillick was
the same way. And I always was impressed by these
guys who don't try to tell you how smart they
are by never shutting up and repeating stories they've told
you times before.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
Hey, look how smart I am.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
But they're the smartest ones in the room because they
ask questions because they might learn something that they don't know.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
That was Bobby Cox. That was a treat for me.
And as far as accountability, Joe, you nailed it with that.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
I'm glad you brought that up, because yes, he was
a player's manager, but if you did something that disrespected
either the game or the concept of team that he
worked so hard to cultivate, he would call you out.
The best story I can give you is July twenty first,
nineteen ninety eight. Andrew Jones, twenty one years old, ran
through a stop sign. Not a big deal, kind of
(25:08):
laughed about the dugout. Okay, that's not cool. And then
he strikes out for a second straight time and takes
his it bout out to the field. There's a ball
hit to him center field and he does not respond
to it, kind of lollygags after it bounces in front
of him for a hit. Bobby Cox took him off
the field on the spot. I mean, how many managers
(25:29):
today would do this?
Speaker 2 (25:30):
Not only that?
Speaker 1 (25:31):
And this is what you'll never hear again. He called
him out after the game in his press conference. Here's
what he said. He's only twenty one. I have to
remember that. I suppose I didn't act that way when
I was twenty one, nor did Hank Aaron or Willie Mays.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
That's kind of the standard Bobby's using here.
Speaker 1 (25:49):
You don't like to do stuff like that, and he's
talking about taking him off the field. But to me,
it was obvious that Andrew didn't try for the ball.
Either go home or play mistakes are nothing, but it's
a mistake not to try.
Speaker 3 (26:04):
So.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
Then they asked Bobby if he would find Andrew Jones
for his laps, and he said, I've taken so much
money from him, it's a joke. I don't know what
to do. He's been sent home when he was in
the minor leagues. We've done a lot of things. He's
got to grow up. It's as simple as that, no
one is bigger than the game. That last part was
(26:25):
probably his epithet there, that line, no one is bigger
than the game. He clearly believed that as such respect
for the game. His beef was not with the player,
It was with disrespecting the game.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
But listen, I kind of miss those days. I know, Joe.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
You like to say he praised publicly, criticized privately, But
I also came up in that era and managers like
Dallas Green and Billy Martin and Whaty Herzog, and they
called it as they saw it.
Speaker 2 (26:50):
And those days are over with. I get it.
Speaker 1 (26:53):
But again, I always thought it came from a good
place with Bobby and Andrew Jones would tell you to
this day, Joe, that was a turning point in his career.
He loved Bobby Cox and loved him for his tough love.
Speaker 4 (27:06):
Well, first of all, Bobby Cox just dripping with baseball history,
experience and methods. Right, this is the kind of guy
that baseball needs to have around when he does not
want to manage anymore. And then they did that. The
Braves really benefited from that. I thinking about Don Zimmer
or Bob Clear for me personally, just.
Speaker 3 (27:25):
To be in their company.
Speaker 4 (27:27):
Whether I'm I'm a coach, a manager, or a player,
it doesn't matter. Just anybody in a baseball uniform that
arrives at the ballpark on a daily basis benefits from
just being around people like this. It's like, don't even
need a job description. The job description is that Bobby
Cox is going to be there or Don Zimmer is
going to be there. Utilize him as you see fit.
(27:48):
Don't be afraid to ask a question, and really, and
if you do ask a question, do not be prepared
to have your hair parted if it's necessary. And these
are the guys you're right, I mean, listen, I do
say that, and I learned that because about praising public
criticized privately.
Speaker 3 (28:05):
I did do that.
Speaker 4 (28:06):
It's just the way my method my nature. And then
there's other guys that grew up maybe in a different era,
that more comfortable, but that was their way and everybody
knew that in advance. For me to have gone in
a different way mid scream would not have been taken properly.
Speaker 3 (28:21):
I think my.
Speaker 4 (28:22):
Best coach is, like it's in our book about coach
Bob rud at Lafayette College, my backfield coach, quarterback coach.
Speaker 3 (28:29):
Guy was a great communicator.
Speaker 4 (28:30):
He communicated with me, and it was through communicate. My
respect was out of communication and on intimidation. Now, I
don't think that Bobby's trying to intimidate there, and I
know Zim wasn't necessarily or not at all trying to intimidate.
They were just trying to get their point across. And
that's the way they knew how to do it. That's
how their daddies talked to them, that their coaches, their
mentors spoke with them.
Speaker 3 (28:52):
I think it's great. I love the direct.
Speaker 4 (28:53):
Method because I've also had that too. So there's so
many different ways to get your point across. I think
the overarching concept is to be consistent. Whatever that approach is,
be consistent with it. They knew what to expect from Bobby.
They knew what to expect from Zim or Bob clear
bobba Aloo, who was one of my greatest mentors. I
love that stuff. Maybe I wish I had started out
(29:18):
that way a little bit more, but that's just not
my nature to be that way. But I can't say
that I don't love those that the nature is to
be that way. I like directness. That's the truth tellers
of the world. I mean, we tend to dissemble or
try to soften it a bit. Honestly, without compassion equals cruelty.
(29:38):
I read that one time, and I think that's that
always sticks with me. So in their own compassionate way,
Zim or Bobby or Bob Aloo, that was their way, man.
And there was no gray areas, Brother, nothing was gray.
It was black and white and it was beautiful.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
Our condolences to the Cox family. He left a huge
legacy on this game. And I think it's more than
you know the numbers that you could look up in
terms of wins and losses and championships. It's all the
players who played for him, uh and the things he
taught them about about baseball and about discipline and about life.
So those legacies certainly will continue. Joe, I want to
(30:15):
get your take on a trade. You don't see a
lot of trades that are made in May, but the
San Francisco Giants traded Patrick Bailey to Cleveland. Patrick Bailey
is known as the best framer in terms of catching
and receiving the ball behind the plate in Major League Baseball.
But let's face it, he can't hit. I mean mean
blunt here talk about truth tailers. Two twenty four career
(30:37):
hitter who this year was slashing one six, two thirteen,
one eighty three, one eighty three was this lugging percentage?
Now we know all the Giants last in the major
leagues in offense. They just can't afford to give up
another spot in the lineup, no matter how well you
are framing pitches. I think, Joe, this is a debate
(30:58):
and I'd love to get your take on this, the
impact of a good receipt behind the plate. Now Cleveland
is signing up for this. I mean they now have
Austin Hedges and Patrick Bailey. Neither one is going to
hit two hundreds, but they're gonna do a great job
running the staff calling a game, calling pitches and quote
(31:20):
unquote framing, which has been devalued a little bit by.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
The ABS system.
Speaker 1 (31:27):
So listen, they paid a high price here. They gave
up a quality pick, first round pick, a compensition pick.
I think it's number twenty nine in the draft, and
as well as a good young arm. They have one
team trading a catcher because you know they need some
more offense, and you get another team taking up that
catcher because they know he can't hit, but they want
to sign up for a guy who can and lean listen,
(31:49):
we know this is the way forward for Cleveland, right
who can run a pitching staff and putting it in
It's almost like they're treating the catching position like a
pitcher position, like you could impact the game.
Speaker 2 (31:58):
We don't care if you hit or not.
Speaker 4 (32:00):
I've been following that pretty closely. Actually, Yeah, the catcher
can have a tremendous impact on the on your pitching
staff obviously in your team in general. I've always felt
you you definitely, I've always wanted defense out of that
position as a young scout. That was one of the
things I was taught by Larry Hims back in the
day that we always rate it. The tools and the
importance of those tools, you know, receiving, throwing were so big,
(32:23):
and the hitting, hitting with power were at the very
end of the requirements for us to turn into player
as a catcher for the draft, So yeah, it's I
I as a as a manager, I want somebody back
there that really yes, first of all, can handle the staff,
and as a catcher myself, one of the highest compliments
(32:44):
I could have received among the pitching staff was that
pitchers would come up to you and say, I love
throwing to you.
Speaker 3 (32:51):
Wow, that was it.
Speaker 4 (32:53):
I didn't care if I was over ten, over twenty.
If the pitchers loved throwing to me, I could. I
could survive. I could withstand oh for four, s oh
for five is whatever strike, that's whatever it might be.
If my pitchers love throwing to me and they relay
that to me on a personal level. Now, that doesn't
mean that the manager's going to recognize that or the
organization is.
Speaker 3 (33:13):
But at least I knew I was doing the right things.
Speaker 4 (33:15):
And that was a combination of things, whether it was
receiving the ball, blocking the ball, calling the game, putting
time in all the different things. That's because the pitchers
see all of that they see all of that, they
know your dedication because I've had catchers that weren't nearly
as dedicated to their craft as they should have been.
Might have been, you know, somewhat good in regards to
their other tools, but if they don't put the time
(33:37):
in with that staff and these pictures can't feel that love,
it becomes a little.
Speaker 3 (33:41):
Bit more difficult. Then you're gonna have a little bit
of a conflict there.
Speaker 4 (33:44):
So yes, and you said framing not as important. It
is important still obviously you get the two challenges. But
what happens when the challenge is the challenges run out
and you can't actually utilize them, and then all of
a sudden you've got catchers that are jerking the ball
around a little bit better than others, and you know,
I know, framing and whatever you want to call it,
but mag god, they just pull pitches so much. And
I still don't understand why the umpires. Maybe some don't
(34:08):
let them get away with it, but now with the
ABSD really cannot. But there's still once the challenges run out,
that's going to be a big part of the game
moving forward. So reading all of that, you're right, treat
him as a pitcher, and I'm here to tell you man,
I would even hit him ete. Like we talked about
what I used to do with the with the Cubbies.
With the National League rules, I to pitcher rights sometimes
(34:30):
to clear them and then also get the potential to
pinch h for him sooner in a close game, late
when you're losing, and further weare you're putting them somebody
in a nine hole that really feeds to one two better.
So I'd be curious how they would handle him in
a batting order too. Could go on and on about it, man,
but pitching staffs that love catcher or a catcher makes
(34:54):
a big difference.
Speaker 1 (34:55):
Yeah, so I guess you're on board with this, giving
up talent and a draft pick to get a catcher
hitting one forty six. It's interesting because the Giants apparently
it's soured on him and including his game calling and
he had a couple of situations with relief pitchers late
in the game where he's calling the same pitch over
and over again. You've got Buster Posey there, President Baseball Operations,
(35:16):
obviously a former catcher.
Speaker 2 (35:18):
They clearly weren't happy with with whatever it was.
Speaker 1 (35:21):
I think besides his lack of hitting, because they you
have to know he has a limited ceiling hitting. But
one team saw him as a valued piece and the
other team didn't. It's a fascinating trade. We'll see how
that works out.
Speaker 3 (35:32):
What quick asking a question? Is he he's a switch hitter?
Isn't he?
Speaker 2 (35:35):
He is a switch hitter?
Speaker 3 (35:37):
Okay?
Speaker 4 (35:37):
So what side is he better from? If there's a
better side, is there a better side?
Speaker 1 (35:41):
Look at career numbers against the right handed pitchers. From
left side he's two twenty two. The other side he's
two twenty eight. Yeah, ops six oh six and six eighteen.
The slug is three twenty five and three thirty eight.
Speaker 3 (35:52):
He's equally bad.
Speaker 4 (35:55):
But I'm just saying that I would actually pick a side.
There's got to be whatever his natural side was. If
he's that bad, pick a side and let him just
focus on one side for a bit and see if
somehow that does benefit him.
Speaker 3 (36:09):
Does he not catch up to velocity? I don't know
what breaking ball.
Speaker 4 (36:13):
I'd love to see this scott and report against him
and how he's being attacked, and see if there's like
a di cauld measure, bass feed, all these other different things.
I would pick a side and just you know, stay
with your doing catch and wise pick a side.
Speaker 3 (36:25):
There might be a more comfortable side.
Speaker 4 (36:28):
Just based on how he grew up, because normally these
guys start on one side and obviously attempt to do
the other, and then he's got a split his time
working on both sides in.
Speaker 3 (36:36):
An attempt to become a better hitter.
Speaker 4 (36:38):
I just be curious if they would pick one side
and just go ahead and be the catching guru of
all times.
Speaker 1 (36:43):
What's interesting about Cleveland to me is up until the
start of this decade they had only four seasons in
their history franchise history where their catchers hit two sixteen
or less. And now it's happened like seven straight years.
This is what they do in Cleveland. I'm sure they'd
love to have a Mike Piazze Tite behind the plate,
but emphasis pitching and defense. A Hi, Joe, You've got
(37:06):
a big history in southern California, going back to not
just managing but scouting players. Does the name Gary Harjess
mean anything to you, Gary Harjus, He's from Long Beach
back in the seventies early eighties.
Speaker 3 (37:21):
It sounds familiar. It sounds really familiar.
Speaker 1 (37:24):
Well, I want to tell his story because it's a
Moonlight Graham kind of story.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
Okay, he's the last player to.
Speaker 1 (37:32):
Do something the major leagues that is extremely rare but
been done only twenty six times. We'll talk about that
right after this on the Book of Joe.
Speaker 2 (37:54):
Welcome back to the Book of Joe.
Speaker 1 (37:56):
You know, I started looking this up the other day
that Cincinnati Reds had a player and it was I
only looked it up it was his one hundredth birthday. Obviously,
not us anymore. Ray Manderos at the age of eighteen
in nineteen forty five. This is when they were trying
to fill out the rosters during the war. He's basically
a sandlot player from California. Signed at eighteen, he got
(38:18):
into a major league game as a pinch runner. They
let the pitcher hit Bucky Walters that they pinch ran
for him, and then he never played another game in
the major leagues. Imagine that you make your debut at eighteen,
pinch run, never getting at bet, never get in the field.
That's it the entire year career. It turns out he's
one of twenty six players who had this Moonlight Graham
(38:38):
kind of moment. Moonlight Graham played on defense. But I'm
talking about a guy who pinch runs, never gets to
play defense or getting at bet twenty six of those
and the last is are aforementioned. Gary Harges. He did
this in nineteen seventy nine for the Pirates date. So
the next to the last day the season, extra inning game,
(38:58):
pinch runs.
Speaker 2 (39:00):
That's it.
Speaker 1 (39:01):
And of course the seventy nine Pirates they won the
World Series and he actually got a partial share Joe
from the seventy nine Pirates World Series champ. You know
how much he got a thousand bucks, not even two
hundred and fifty bucks. So anyway, Gary, he's the last
one to just have one appearance in the major leagues
and it's strictly as a pinch runner.
Speaker 2 (39:23):
That's it. One time pinch running. So he did play
for like eight years.
Speaker 1 (39:29):
West Coast guys, he's playing for the Portland Beavers in
nineteen eighty two. In April, he gets traded to Kansas
City and they want to send him to Omaha. Wow,
they're affiliate in the minor leagues. Well, he wants to
stay on the West Coast. So he said that's it,
I'm done, and he quit. He went home and he
(39:50):
enrolled in a place called Controlled Data Institute in southern
California to learn about this new thing called computers.
Speaker 2 (39:58):
But the money quote.
Speaker 1 (39:59):
From Gary Harges, he was asked about, you know, his
major league career pinch running appearance. He said, he was thinking,
just let me get one game so my name can
get into the book. Because when you do, it's it's
just like the movies. Your eyes light up. You never
want the night to end. You just want to play
(40:20):
ball like you did when you were a kid. How
about that poetic that's our moonlight, Graham of the pinch
running variety, Gary Harges.
Speaker 4 (40:30):
That's beautiful. I mean, that's all we ever wished for.
It's so refreshing to hear that kind of language, talk, sentiment,
however you want to describe it, it's exactly. I mean,
I'm looking out my window right now in northeastern Pennsylvania
and I'm just thinking about all the crappy fields we
played on.
Speaker 3 (40:46):
Backer.
Speaker 4 (40:46):
We played on a coal bank northeast field. It was
actually like slate. It was black slate. Played for the
YNPA softball team there. And you go, there's a field
in Beaver Metals, which happens to be where Normal Larker's from.
Wayne Larker's dad, Normal Larker played for the Dodgers and
almost won a batting time Beaver metals is right, And
I'm telling you, man, there was actually boulders on that field,
(41:08):
not just rocks. And you just all you ever wanted.
You just wanted to play baseball on anything. As long
as there's a group of guys there to compete against,
that's all that mattered. So absolutely understand his sentiment. It's
fully for him, the fact that he that he ran
with another career and was able to do so and
put it down and continue along his life. Just about
(41:31):
the Pirate situation, I would imagine they were clinched by then.
The Pirates were clinched before the second two games left
in the season.
Speaker 3 (41:38):
That's Chuck Tanner.
Speaker 4 (41:39):
I'm just I'm betting that that Tanner uh just said,
we got to get this guy in the game somehow.
I would not or that that whole group is that
whole group that they's a man, they were pirates, they
were that was That was a tough group right there.
But Chuck Tanner is one of the nicest people I
met in the game. And we had some common friends
back in Davenport, Iowa. So I'm wondering if if that
(42:00):
was something that Tanner really wanted to make sure it happened.
They get Gary Harg just any game, because just for
the reasons that Gary har just just described or demonstrate it,
his name will be in the book and something you
remember for the rest of his life he could tell
his grandchildren about. You actually think about those things as
a major league manager. Sometimes that is so cool.
Speaker 1 (42:18):
And I'm glad you brought up the fact of playing
on all those lousy fields, Joe, because this is gonna
sound like you know, it snowed every day when we
went to.
Speaker 2 (42:27):
School and we walked back and forth five miles.
Speaker 1 (42:30):
But you're absolutely right when you started playing and moving
up the ladder and started playing on better fields, man,
the pristine field. And this went for me anyway, just
covering major league baseball. When you got to a major
league field, it was nirvana. You'd never seen anything like it. Now,
either fortunately or unfortunately. Kids growing up and playing they're
(42:53):
playing on a lot of cases, they're playing on turf fields,
but they're playing on pretty much groomed fields in the
most part. If you're playing any kind of travel ball
which didn't exist back in the day. Right, the access
to good fields, good facilities. A lot of these kids
who wind up going to the major leagues that have
that privilege, if you will. But you remember, Joe, what
(43:15):
it was like playing on some of these fields. How
about the batter's box that would be so dugout, you know,
especially the right handed batter's box, so the dirt was
all gone. A home plate would be raised like the
home plate would be above your ankles, and sometimes the
corners of the plate were, you know, pointing up. If
you slid into home plate, you were taking your life
into your hands. You learn how to field ground balls
(43:36):
with bad hops all over the place.
Speaker 2 (43:38):
I'm not saying it was better back.
Speaker 1 (43:39):
Then, Joe, but you understand what it was like as
the joy as you started moving up and playing on
better fields, and you're like blown away by it.
Speaker 4 (43:47):
Nothing worse than not being able to get your feet
level in a batter's box, which was impossible.
Speaker 3 (43:52):
You're absolutely right. The whole game is played through your feet.
Speaker 4 (43:55):
Your feet, good feet in the game of baseball applies
to everything that you do, and you always look from
the ground up and in regards to breaking down a player.
I always worked from the ground up. Then you look
at results and work backwards, and that's how you evaluate
a player. So when your feet were uncomfortable or your
feet weren't good, that would be very noticeable from a
(44:18):
scouting perspective. And absolutely you're not able to do everything
that you'd like to be able to do in the game.
It's it's you can talk about any game. You can
talk about basketball, you can talk about football, whatever. People
don't talk about feet enough. Feet really, that's where it
all begins. Man, feet on the ground, ability to move
those things, you know, very smoothly, subtly, quickly, and have
(44:41):
educated feet as a catcher, being being converted the catcher
as a at Lafiette College by Norman Gigan, who was
my manager at that time. The footwork required, I mean,
probably gave me a little bit too much in the beginning. However,
that was the way of the world at that point
and was god. It was like it was like speaking
a new language, learning my footwork as a catcher for
(45:01):
the first time, you know. And you got guys in
college on the ball pretty good. Richie Carter to good fastball.
Colonel had a good fastball, good curveball. Say I'm talking
like ninety plus, So it's all of a sudden. It's
a very quick game. So it's all about your feet.
And yeah, it really in these batter's boxes, pitchers, mounds,
playing in short stuff with the rocks in front of you,
(45:21):
and you're always trying to pick them.
Speaker 3 (45:22):
And throwing them out of the way. Man, what a beautiful,
beautiful way to grow up.
Speaker 1 (45:27):
Oh well said as you always do, Joe, you bring
us home.
Speaker 2 (45:31):
What do you have for us on this episode or
the book of Joe?
Speaker 4 (45:34):
I guess I knew about Gary Hargis in advance somehow, right,
And I am here to tell you I didn't, because
we're talking about all these joyful moments when you were young, right,
forever young? And I wow, that was my motivation today
was to be forever young.
Speaker 3 (45:53):
What does that mean?
Speaker 4 (45:55):
Just thinking about the game itself, just thinking about me,
you know, regarding like I can't wait to about to
play some golf today. You know, I'm working on my RV.
You know, things things like that. I mean, it's just
like stuff that never leaves you that you you loved
as a kid and then gosh, you still get to
do it when you're a couple of years older, and
I got several, but there were just so many good
(46:15):
ones regarding this, And start with satual page because this
it's almost like a Mark Twain quote. But how old
would you be if you didn't know how old you are?
Twain said something about it.
Speaker 3 (46:26):
But I did not have a memory or a mirror.
Speaker 4 (46:28):
I would always think I was sixteen years of age,
because when you look at your eyeballs, it's still sixteen.
I think that's great stuff, Doctor Dylan d h I
ll o in for every young means positive attitude and
love for life.
Speaker 3 (46:44):
We grow old when we quit playing.
Speaker 4 (46:47):
That's in growing old as mandatory, but growing up as optional.
Walt Disney. All these things are true. I mean, you
know the term act your age. God do I hate
that term.
Speaker 3 (46:55):
I never do.
Speaker 4 (46:56):
I'd like to know who invented that in the first place,
or why they somebody that just was very mean spirited
or just.
Speaker 3 (47:04):
Could not keep up.
Speaker 4 (47:05):
So yeah, the forever young concept, there's nothing wrong with that.
Being Peter Pan is a good thing. So Gary Harjus
when he talks to his grandkids and his kids and
his you know, relatives are just the guys he has
a beer with What a great story to talk about
pinch running on that night he was told to run
out there to second base, Chuck Tanners, get get get hard,
just in the game. All that stuff, Man, there's got
(47:27):
to be there's a there's a life story just revolving
around that. So growing all is mandatory, but growing up
is optional. Mister Disney, I love that.
Speaker 1 (47:35):
Yeah, I'm so glad you brought up two of my favorites,
Mark Twain and Satchel Page. Can't go wrong there, and
I will add Joe Madden to that list as well
because it dovetails with something I know that that you'd
like to say about seeing things with first time eyes.
Speaker 3 (47:48):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (47:49):
I mean there's a lot of wisdom.
Speaker 1 (47:51):
In that, and if you can do that, that also
keeps you quote unquote young. When you're looking at things
like you're seeing them for the first time, you're not jaded,
you're not accepting things or just thinking that you've seen
it all and done it all. If you can see
things through first time eyes, you still have that. Let's
face it, the word is joy, and you associate joy
(48:12):
with being a kid.
Speaker 2 (48:13):
So that's I love that phrase.
Speaker 1 (48:15):
Jove with that you've always talked about seeing things with
first time eyes.
Speaker 4 (48:18):
We tend to move away from that and we become
jaded or everything becomes you get used to. To complete
the phrase, it was like, see things with first time
eyes and then feel things with first time passion.
Speaker 3 (48:31):
Not easy to do.
Speaker 4 (48:32):
I mean, obviously those things that are just they just happen,
but don't get in the way of your inner being
wanting to see something for the first time or feeling
that first time passion.
Speaker 3 (48:42):
I don't know.
Speaker 4 (48:43):
I think I was motivated with seeing Conniemac Stadium for
the first time. When you walk up the Clown's mouth
there and all of a sudden, the feel presents itself.
Speaker 3 (48:52):
Wow.
Speaker 4 (48:53):
Talk about taking your breath away and the impact that
makes on a young man. So yeah, we should never
get don't get used to things, just open your eyes
and really appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (49:04):
What's around us.
Speaker 4 (49:04):
I come back to Northeastern Pennsylvania. A lot of my buddies,
they'll live here their whole life, and I get in
and out of here, and I always see this place
with first time eyes and feel with that first time
passion when I get back home. It's still one of
the most glorious places ever, and the summers here are unbeatable.
So I'm looking forward to the summer of twenty twenty
six again, just like I did in nineteen seventy five
(49:26):
or seventy four, let's say, when I tore it up
with the scraton Red Sox about forty five minutes from here.
Speaker 2 (49:31):
Awesome stuff, Joe, great job. We'll see you next time
on the Book of Joe.
Speaker 3 (49:35):
See you, brother, Thanks man.
Speaker 1 (49:45):
The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.
For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you get your podcasts.
The Book of Joe Podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.
Hey Daron, Welcome back to the Book of Joe Podcast
with Me, Tom Berducci and Joe Meddon and Joe.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Believe it or not, we are a quarter.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
Of the way through the baseball season. Can you believe
that we're at the quarter pole already?
Speaker 3 (00:28):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (00:29):
You know what happens at spring training. It always starts
out so it's just too long. Spring Training's too long,
and you always hear those kind of refrains, and I
always thought it was just a right amount of time.
But the point is it starts slowly, but my god,
when it gains momentum the season, that is before you
know it. You keep ripping off calendar pages and it's
August and it's September. It's just the way this thing works.
(00:49):
It always starts out slowly, but once it gains momentum,
it starts rolling heads up.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
I'm here to tell you too. And you know this, Joe,
that the first quarter of the season. I know people
love to say it's early, but you know, narratives and
patterns get established.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Good teams tend to rise to the top early.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
I went back and I looked at last year, what
teams were in playoff position on this date? Okay, how
many teams out of the twelve do you think we're
in playoff position and we're still there at the.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
End of the season.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
I say ten or eleven?
Speaker 1 (01:24):
Almost nine? Nine of the twelve teams. The only teams
that were in playoff position after quarter of the season
that did not make the playoffs Kansas City, the Mets,
and the Giants. So nine out of your twelve teams
only a quarter of the way through the season had
already surfaced as a playoff team.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
That to me is a lot to say that.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
You know, there's not a whole lot of turnover in
the last three quarters of the season, is there?
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Short?
Speaker 1 (01:50):
And we love to focus on the outliers and the
comebacks and the way teams played down the stretch, the
way you know Cleveland did, the way Detroit did a
couple of years ago. That's why Joe, I want to
bring up a team with the second best record in baseball.
They're a surprise, a major surprise, especially when you see
they are last in the major leagues in extra base percentage,
(02:13):
they're twenty sixth in home runs. That team is your
Tampa Bay Rays off to a twenty seven and thirteen start.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
Are they surprising you, Joe.
Speaker 3 (02:27):
I guess you'd have to say they are a bit,
but not.
Speaker 4 (02:31):
I watched them often now, and first of all, they
have a definite analog baseball look about him the kids Simpson.
I'm absolutely in love with what he's doing there and
how he's doing He's still the third base. Last night
catcher throws the ball in the left field. That's just
that's just demoralizing to that team. They're not afraid to bunt,
they play great defense, their their bullpen has almost been
(02:54):
unhittable with a bunch of names you don't even know again,
so they're just playing typical Tampa Tampa Raay Tampa Bay
Race baseball. You know, started out as Devil Ray baseball.
So yeah, it's it's surprising, but it's not. I I
they just got to keep doing them. I think I
made this point earlier people talking about how to use
supplant the Dodgers in the NL West. You don't do
(03:17):
it by playing their game. They're going to beat you
at their game. You got to got to play a
different version of the same game or something that had
been done in the past. Where you're utilizing all your abilities,
all your talents, and that's what the Rays have done,
and they go they're starting.
Speaker 3 (03:31):
Pitching has been pretty good.
Speaker 4 (03:32):
Too, So yes, I when you got a zig when
others are zagging, or vice versa.
Speaker 3 (03:37):
Whatever.
Speaker 4 (03:37):
But they're doing exactly what they need to do to
to kick the Yankees in the shins, kick Toronto in
the shins, et cetera. They got Gosman last night, Gosmin
the second time he saw them in a short period
of time. But they were all over. They weren't they
weren't chasing, They're on top of his stuff. The splitter
was not as pertinent because they just weren't.
Speaker 3 (03:58):
Going for it. So yes, I I like it. I
think it's great.
Speaker 4 (04:04):
That really dovetails into our analog baseball theme and I
want to seem to be successful all year.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
Yeah, you're perfectly You're dead on right there with the
way they play baseball. And I would argue, Joe, it's
a little bit counter to what we've seen from the
Rays in recent years and the fact that they were
one of these teams that dives deeply into analytics. They
sure still do, of course, but the analog baseball component listen.
I never thought I would see a day, which is
a day today where the Rays have more sacrifice hits
(04:33):
than any team in baseball. They lead the major leagues
in bunts. You know, back in the day, as you know, Joe,
the analytics crowd hated the butt.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
Why are you giving up it out? Well, you nailed it.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
The way they play baseball now, the Tampa Bay Rays
have the number one contact rate in Major League Baseball.
They have the second lowest strikeout rate in Major League Baseball.
So when I talked about this team doesn't hit home runs,
they don't get extra base hits.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
You know what.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
They move runners, They put the ball in play. They
have the speed to take advantage of any kind of
mistakes or slow play on defense.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
So yeah, it is analog baseball.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
It's not quite White Herzog's Cardinals, but they've got that
element to them.
Speaker 3 (05:15):
Why wouldn't you.
Speaker 4 (05:16):
I mean that ballpark, that ballpark can play like a
mausoleum too. You know, there's there's no win whatever, but
that ballpark from gap to gap gets really big, and
you want to play your best version of yourself right there.
Analytics changes, That's the whole thing about it. People don't
understand that everybody analytics, Like I've talked about this in
the past when it was so naive when it first
came on board, the version of the term, I thought
(05:38):
it was infallible.
Speaker 3 (05:39):
I thought it was like there.
Speaker 4 (05:40):
Was this analytics and it was like always perfect, it's
never wrong. I really thought that when I first started
getting into in the two thousand and five sixty the
updated version. My version of it was the version I
started like nineteen ninety five to the time I got
to the rays, which was my own methods. But three
to zero counts. I used to have an argument with
Andrew about a three to zero count. He hated when
(06:02):
I gave him the green light on a three account,
and I said, listen, if there's two outs and nobody on,
why did you look for a double or better?
Speaker 3 (06:08):
Right there?
Speaker 4 (06:09):
I want, if I know this guy, kid it doubles
are better with two outs and nobody on. I want
him swinging at that three to zero pitch if he
likes it, and see if you could put it in
the seats.
Speaker 3 (06:17):
Whatever.
Speaker 4 (06:18):
As an example, elevated fastballs they're popular. They still are
to a certain extent, but now you're seeing a lot
more sinkers, the sweeper, the fact that offspeed pitches have
overtaken fastballs, all the different things that evolve as we
move the thing forward. But understand that analytics will change,
and they do change, and sometimes they go from this
(06:38):
progressive or futuristic method of baseball they go back to
try it and true.
Speaker 3 (06:43):
So that's what we're seeing.
Speaker 4 (06:46):
And just back to a point you made on the
last segment about the team starting out well or the
teams that eventually make the playoffs. It's hard to turn
on a switch right now, even at this point of
the sea. If you have not been playing good baseball
and all of a sudden you want to start playing
good baseball, it's very difficult. Unless you get an in
few somehow, maybe guys have been hurt, get well, you know,
(07:08):
you possibly make a trader. You got a youngster that
comes up that all of a sudden makes an incredible difference.
So if you're not been playing well and things are
static or the same, it's hard to imagine that you're
going to start playing well all of a sudden.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
Yeah, that sounds to be like It definitely applies to
the New York Mets bringing up prospect Aja Ewing. They
already have their other top prospect, benj in the major leagues.
We'll see what happens if they get a spark there.
But getting back to the rais you mentioned it, and
this is a big point to me. Playing in the trap.
They're back home. They were totally lost last year playing
(07:40):
in a minor league ballpark with that pitching, right.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
I mean, the balls were just flying out of that place.
That's not how they play.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
There's something about the trap, and you know this, Joe,
that they take advantage of. I know they've got newer
lighting in there now a lot of things have been redone,
but that plays to me, plays like a pitcher's park,
at least in the raised hands, and they know what
to do with pitching. Kyle Snyder, the pitching coach there,
does an amazing job. But doing it again this year.
I mean, you got Brian Baker closing games, throwing ninety
(08:07):
nine miles an hour. You got Nick Martinez who's pitching
like an ace with an era under two. They do
this every year, and you know this, Joe, You've seen it.
They pick up these guys from other organizations and they're
better with Tampa than they are anywhere else. The rotation
has been great. Shane McClanahan. Really good to see him
back after a couple of lost years to injuries. Drew Marasmussen.
(08:29):
They're third in the Major leagues and era their starters,
behind only the Braves and the Yankees. And here's the
Kyle Schnyder calling card. They're third in the Major leagues
and strike percentage, and they're second in the Major leagues
in first pitch strike percentage. They preach that big time
their first pitch. They're big on that. They're actually big
(08:50):
on winning the count. After three pitches. Batter either should
be out or you should have count leverage after three.
Throwing a first pitch strike is no good if your
next two pitches are out of the zone and you're
pitching from behind.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
But they're doing it again, Joe.
Speaker 1 (09:04):
There's something about pitching, and especially in that ballpark there.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
I missed them a little bit.
Speaker 1 (09:10):
I knew going back home, Joe, they'd played better, because
I do think just fits the way they pitch.
Speaker 2 (09:15):
But they're a lot better team than I thought.
Speaker 4 (09:18):
Love the one one count is really what it comes
down to. You always want to turn the one one
count into a one to two count of the ball
and play and becomes it out on that third pitch.
Speaker 3 (09:27):
I love that.
Speaker 4 (09:28):
The thing about the different folks walking in the door
there when a pitcher, anybody, but especially pictures when they
walk in the door, guys that they've acquired somehow, regardless
of the vehicle, they have a plan for them. You
walk in the door. Hey, hey, Tom, great to have
you here. Look, this is what we've noticed about you.
We think you need to do this instead, and we
really believe if you do do this instead, you have
(09:50):
a pretty good chance of being successful. What do you
think that's I was there. I mean, he was there
for so many of those moments, even even like with
Jake McGee was there. And Jake was already a part
of the fabric.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
He was.
Speaker 4 (10:03):
He was a high elevated fastball pitcher and and and
man he great at it, you know, he was wonderful.
And I used to put him on right handed hitters,
like when we played the Angels.
Speaker 3 (10:11):
I wanted him on Troti all the time.
Speaker 4 (10:13):
But there was there was even like some peers saying, hey,
he's got to get that fastball down, and I say, no,
he doesn't, No, he doesn't. That's who he is. That's
how he needs to pitch to be successful. Because if
you and this is where analytics versus analog can be good,
because sometimes, like the old pitching coaches would just want
the ball down, period because that's what we had been
(10:33):
taught to do. But there's some guys pitching wise, that
live better up in his own for various reasons, and
there's just a great carry to their pitch, and when
they try to throw the ball down, they become more
hittable because a hitter can already or now they can
catch up to that velocity. As an example, so you
walk into in the Tampa Ray Tampa Bay Ray door
and you're going to have a nice little schematic here
(10:56):
instructional booklet on how to get better. And that's that's
that's really I've seen it, Joe Joel Peralta when we
got it from the he's another guy, all these guys
that walked in the door. Pralta I talked about this.
Eric Heander came up with the idea of the thought
based on his studies that if he threw a first
pitch break and ball strike. If Pralta did do that,
(11:18):
the batting average against him would be something like one
twenty five. That was just something that we figured out
or he figured out. And then of course he was
a great reverse split gun and put him on lefties
all the time, and if there comes a arriety, you
bring him in, they pinch it for him.
Speaker 3 (11:31):
It works in our favor. These are the kind of
things that they do well.
Speaker 4 (11:35):
Anybody can do that, but you have to have that
that miner's nature that we can just dig, dig, dig
and figure this kind of stuff out, and that's what
they do.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
Hey, there was also a little bit of strange a site,
a strange site the other night in Los Angeles, Shoheo
Tani was out there early taking BP.
Speaker 3 (11:54):
Joe.
Speaker 1 (11:54):
First of all, he doesn't hit on the field much
as you know, if at all, and this was not
in a group in the normal VP rounds.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
This was actually early hitting on the field.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
I mean, I don't know if I've ever seen that before,
and from every indication it wasn't a great session. He's
clearly working on something. It's hard to imagine, but it's
true that he is in a slump. Last eleven games,
He's four for thirty eight, no home runs. And what
I say, Joe is a ton of ground balls, and
(12:29):
especially to the pole side. He's lost the ability right
now in these last couple of weeks to just stay
on pitches and lose balls.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
As you said Joe in the Rocks back in Anaheim.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
But that left center field power, the big part of
the field, I'll throw center field in there as well,
has gone missing this year and it's been replaced by
his highest percentage of.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
Ground balls in his career. Listen, he's human. We all
know that.
Speaker 1 (12:54):
Sometimes we have to remind ourselves he's so darn good.
But when show he's not going, you know, the Dodgers
don't look like the same team. He's their leadoff hitter,
he's going to get five played peer Yarns as a Knight,
and if he's not getting on base and he's not lately,
the Dodgers look like a different team.
Speaker 4 (13:09):
It happens to some really good left ten hitters on
occasion they get into that pool ground ball mode. You know,
when the shift was in vogue and we're able to
do it. It really would play with their heads a lot.
Sometimes would exacerbate the issue, just because by trying not
to do you do it even more. I think Kyle
Tucker kind of got into that last year a bit.
Speaker 3 (13:28):
It happens. It just happens.
Speaker 4 (13:29):
You know, you really want to you want to let
the ball travel more deeply, you want to stay inside
the ball, you want to drive it to left central.
But here comes the game and all of a sudden,
you're quick and you get out in front of everything
and you start rolling your hands too soon. It happens.
It just happens. I'm betting on him. I'm betting he
figures this out, and I think when he does, he's
going to come back with a vengeance. But you're right
that the Dodgers will always suffer when he's not at
(13:52):
his best. You know, there's a great lineup, there's a
lot of good players there, but you need that the straw,
like Reggie used to be right, You need that straw
sturing the whole drink there. And that's what he is.
But again, people don't get don't get too concerned. You know,
you could be mildly concerned if you like, just because
it's happening. But he's going to work his way out
(14:13):
of it. He's gonna come back, he's gonna start driving
the ball the left central gap. I saw it that
first year I had him with the Angels. Just sometimes
he just gets into that mode, but he'll figure it
out and everything's going to be just fine.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
Yeah, it's interesting that there are certain guys and you know,
this Joe, that can affect the rest of the lineup
positively and negatively. I saw Tony Vtello talking about Rafael Devers,
who actually has started to wake up the last week
or so, and I know early this season I talked
with Tony and he talked about how you know, when
he's not going, it really does affect the other hitters
(14:47):
in the lineup. There's a certain vibe when your big
hitter gets going and they're getting a little bit of life.
Now that he is hitting, you've got the thumper in
the middle of the lineup and everybody can just go
back to playing their roles. It sounds simple, but Joe,
but you've seen it in practice. And I actually think
with Showhy as the leadoff hitter, you know, he's got
such this vibe to him, for lack of a better word,
(15:10):
that when you see him in this rare situation where
he's not hitting, I do think it has a negative
effect on the rest of the lineup.
Speaker 4 (15:19):
It does Aaron Judge with the Yankees and my god,
and when every time he goes in a slump towards
the end of the year, obviously and makes it more
difficult for them.
Speaker 3 (15:26):
And you could.
Speaker 4 (15:27):
Recount each team and pick out one guy that's the
lynchpin of the whole lineup, and it always that way,
and right, a classic leadoff hitter man when you're a classic,
you know, maybe show he's not classic in a sense,
but he is in today's world. But when that guy struggles,
it does impact the rest. I mean when that first
guy goes up there and hangs out a rope or
it takes out like a seven or eight pitch walk,
(15:48):
and all of a sudden, the other guys are going
to benefit from it.
Speaker 3 (15:50):
In the lineup, that is so invaluable.
Speaker 4 (15:53):
And in today's game, with these these power guys, weren't
the top of the lineup. You're really trying to get that.
But we'll take that first hitter, first pitch home run.
It happens often these days. It just does something. It
just kick starts the mentality of the entire group normally,
So yes, no.
Speaker 3 (16:07):
Question about that.
Speaker 4 (16:09):
When your best guys are suffering, it's just it just
in an uneven way, just not really intentionally obviously, the
other guys.
Speaker 3 (16:19):
Just feel it.
Speaker 4 (16:20):
And then when your guys going, well, oh my god,
everybody believes they're gonna go up there and hit a
line drive somewhere. It just it just the way the
baseball world works. We have our our moments are you know, weeks,
weeks or maybe two weeks or even a month where
everything's falling into place and everybody's like like the Raiser
going through right now, and the Yankees had been for
a bit right now too, and then eventually you look
(16:43):
forward to even out a bit. So it's just the
ebb and flow of the baseball season. It's what makes
the game so interesting when we have to talk about
really good players that are struggling, and then when they're
really being glorious as themselves, all of a sudden, the
world is finding in and that's what's gonna happen. But
show's gonna be good and the Dodgs are gonna be
just fine.
Speaker 2 (16:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
Absolutely, The fact that he's this call just tells you
that he's going to be this hot, and that's Covenant
sad news. We'll get to after a quick break here, Joe,
we lost one of the greatest managers of all time.
That's not an exaggeration at all. We'll talk about Bobby
Cox right after this Welcome back to the Book of Joe.
(17:34):
Bobby Cox was one of those guys Joe, I know
he had a brief major league career, would really he
worked in the front office in Toronto and Atlanta, did
a great.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
Job both places.
Speaker 1 (17:44):
But one of those guys, to me, was born to
be a major league manager. Right the other day, I
wrote about Bobby and I compared him to Marcus Aurelius
being a stoic.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
And the fact that Bobby Cox had a lot of power.
Speaker 1 (18:01):
You know, if you were Atlanta Brave and you came
to that team, you did not play music in the
clubhouse after a game. You do not play music before
a game. If you want to listen to music, you
put headphones on. Because the music is not universal to
players on the team. Some might like it your choice,
some might not. So that was his way of dealing
with If you were wearing sunglasses on your cap, it
(18:23):
had to be backwards because he never wanted the A
on the Atlanta Braves cap to be covered. So did
he run a tight ship? Maybe in terms of today's game.
But I think the reason I compared him to a
stoic was that he accumulated this power, but it was
all about the team.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
It was never for personal power.
Speaker 1 (18:44):
He backed players as much as anybody I've ever been around.
When I say that, that term players manager, which I
kind of don't like because it's got this connotation of
you run a loose ship and guys can do whatever
they want. When I think about players manager, I think
a guy like Bobby Cox who backed his players to
the nth degree.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
I remember Tom Glavine.
Speaker 1 (19:04):
He would throw some games, and it was only occasionally,
of course, Tom Glavin Hall of Famer. He'd have a
bad game, command was nowhere near what it should be,
get banged around a little bit, and the next day
he would read in the paper the quotes from Bobby
Cox about how Tommy Glavin threw the ball. Great, he
was a little bit unlucky. A call here or there
changes the whole game. He's like Bobby was watching a
different game than me, But that was him, you know,
(19:27):
he backed his players no matter what. People loved playing
for Bobby Cox, and that's why I say he's one
of the greatest advantages of all time. Yes, he's got
the prolific numbers in terms of wins. I think he's
fourth all time, third all time, a fourth all time
and wins and games managed. Only Joe McCarthy and Bobby
Cox have a high winning percentage managing more than thirty
(19:49):
five hundred games. You can go on and on, but
to me, his legacy is that he was a player's manager.
And ask anybody who played for him, and they love
Bobby Cox.
Speaker 4 (19:58):
Yeah, I think it comes down to he promoted personal accountability.
And the reason why I say that at the Braves
they're batting practice routine, their scheduled. This is and I
tried this when I was with the Rays for a
bit too. Okay, say say BP started at four forty
five or four to fifty, whatever it was on the
on the board, on the schedule, you were you were
(20:19):
responsible to get yourself loose before that time, whatever it was,
whether it was in the weight room wherever you wanted
to stretch left field, right field with three guys, five guys,
the whole group, whatever. But at four forty five or
four point fifty, they would just walk out there and
batting practice would begin.
Speaker 3 (20:34):
But they were they were.
Speaker 4 (20:35):
Held accountable to be ready to begin batting practice at
four forty five or four fifty. I loved that because
but really the stretching session had devolved into just, you know,
kind of a social gathering, which I guess has its
its place also, But and if you want to use
it for that, fine, just just just label it as
our social gathering pre BP, or just say batting practice
(20:59):
is going to start at four forty five. You know,
just if you're the first group, you're in the first
group to get in your ground balls, a shortstop, get
out there. I love that, and again I think the
players love that too, because it permitted them to get
ready in their own way.
Speaker 3 (21:12):
You've already described it.
Speaker 4 (21:13):
I don't think there was any eyewash involvement here whatsoever.
Nothing was done just to ameliorate anybody else's concerns or
even the industrial concerns. He was just there was the
Atlanta Braves. How we do things here? They circle their wagons,
and that was it. I think he had kind of
a little bit of a dress code where you had
to wear a collared shirt. Also, fine, this is just
(21:35):
things out of his past, and they were very they
were simple, and there are very few of them, which
is easy for a group to follow.
Speaker 3 (21:42):
So the personal accountability, no eyewash.
Speaker 4 (21:45):
And of course he was one of a kind, and
he is like one of the last vestiges of when
authenticity and experience mattered and morphing them together. Authentic personality,
authentic man authentic character, every you want to label it,
and experience. All the mentors that he had had uh
to that point when he became a manager, we're we're
(22:07):
on an exhibit, exhibition whenever he managed the game, because
that's how we learned. We learned from these people that
we that we considered our mentors, our greatest teachers coming
up in the game of baseball. That was that's what
he did, and that's what he showed him manifest And
last point, listen to his players and you just already
mentioned it, Amen, They will tell you what they thought
(22:29):
of Bobby Cox. You don't have to read anything else.
You have to read any articles about him, you don't
have to any you know, tributes to him. Whatever what
his player said or are saying, that just screams at
me and it validates and backs up everything you just said.
Speaker 3 (22:45):
And that's who he was.
Speaker 4 (22:46):
I didn't know him that well. I met him a
couple of times, easy to like him. The conversation was
always positive, as you indicated. So yeah, I again not
knowing him well, but from a distance, always had most
respect for him.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
One are my treats covering this game. There was a
room off the the walkway the tunnel from the clubhouse
down to the field both at Atlanta Fulton County Stadium
and Turner Field. Essentially it was a groundskeepers area, but
they turned it into what they called Bobby's room.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
That's where Bobby would hang out.
Speaker 1 (23:17):
There'd be a television there with whether radar was up
all the time. I'd love going in there for a
night game in Atlanta and maybe the Cubs game was
playing on his TV in that office there, and he
would invite you in there.
Speaker 2 (23:30):
It was a very small room. It was not a
lounge at all. It was very smart in place.
Speaker 1 (23:35):
So basically if you went in there, it was just
the room for the two of you. So we'd sit
there and watch a game and just talk baseball. And
Bobby Cox the minute he got dressed for a game,
he dressed like a players.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
I equate it to being an army general or a
navy admiral.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
When you put that uniform on, it's a uniform that
demands respect. So Bobby Cox would always wear the jersey,
and how many managers are wearing cut off hoodies and
whatnot this year these days? Always the jersey, always the cap,
always spikes. He managed folks, always spikes, always stirrups. And
he just loved to talk baseball. And he's one of
(24:13):
these guys than listen. I probably told him nothing over
the years that was of any use to him, but
he would ask questions. And I like Pat Gillick was
the same way. And I always was impressed by these
guys who don't try to tell you how smart they
are by never shutting up and repeating stories they've told
you times before.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
Hey, look how smart I am.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
But they're the smartest ones in the room because they
ask questions because they might learn something that they don't know.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
That was Bobby Cox. That was a treat for me.
And as far as accountability, Joe, you nailed it with that.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
I'm glad you brought that up, because yes, he was
a player's manager, but if you did something that disrespected
either the game or the concept of team that he
worked so hard to cultivate, he would call you out.
The best story I can give you is July twenty first,
nineteen ninety eight. Andrew Jones, twenty one years old, ran
through a stop sign. Not a big deal, kind of
(25:08):
laughed about the dugout. Okay, that's not cool. And then
he strikes out for a second straight time and takes
his it bout out to the field. There's a ball
hit to him center field and he does not respond
to it, kind of lollygags after it bounces in front
of him for a hit. Bobby Cox took him off
the field on the spot. I mean, how many managers
(25:29):
today would do this?
Speaker 2 (25:30):
Not only that?
Speaker 1 (25:31):
And this is what you'll never hear again. He called
him out after the game in his press conference. Here's
what he said. He's only twenty one. I have to
remember that. I suppose I didn't act that way when
I was twenty one, nor did Hank Aaron or Willie Mays.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
That's kind of the standard Bobby's using here.
Speaker 1 (25:49):
You don't like to do stuff like that, and he's
talking about taking him off the field. But to me,
it was obvious that Andrew didn't try for the ball.
Either go home or play mistakes are nothing, but it's
a mistake not to try.
Speaker 3 (26:04):
So.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
Then they asked Bobby if he would find Andrew Jones
for his laps, and he said, I've taken so much
money from him, it's a joke. I don't know what
to do. He's been sent home when he was in
the minor leagues. We've done a lot of things. He's
got to grow up. It's as simple as that, no
one is bigger than the game. That last part was
(26:25):
probably his epithet there, that line, no one is bigger
than the game. He clearly believed that as such respect
for the game. His beef was not with the player,
It was with disrespecting the game.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
But listen, I kind of miss those days. I know, Joe.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
You like to say he praised publicly, criticized privately, But
I also came up in that era and managers like
Dallas Green and Billy Martin and Whaty Herzog, and they
called it as they saw it.
Speaker 2 (26:50):
And those days are over with. I get it.
Speaker 1 (26:53):
But again, I always thought it came from a good
place with Bobby and Andrew Jones would tell you to
this day, Joe, that was a turning point in his career.
He loved Bobby Cox and loved him for his tough love.
Speaker 4 (27:06):
Well, first of all, Bobby Cox just dripping with baseball history,
experience and methods. Right, this is the kind of guy
that baseball needs to have around when he does not
want to manage anymore. And then they did that. The
Braves really benefited from that. I thinking about Don Zimmer
or Bob Clear for me personally, just.
Speaker 3 (27:25):
To be in their company.
Speaker 4 (27:27):
Whether I'm I'm a coach, a manager, or a player,
it doesn't matter. Just anybody in a baseball uniform that
arrives at the ballpark on a daily basis benefits from
just being around people like this. It's like, don't even
need a job description. The job description is that Bobby
Cox is going to be there or Don Zimmer is
going to be there. Utilize him as you see fit.
(27:48):
Don't be afraid to ask a question, and really, and
if you do ask a question, do not be prepared
to have your hair parted if it's necessary. And these
are the guys you're right, I mean, listen, I do
say that, and I learned that because about praising public
criticized privately.
Speaker 3 (28:05):
I did do that.
Speaker 4 (28:06):
It's just the way my method my nature. And then
there's other guys that grew up maybe in a different era,
that more comfortable, but that was their way and everybody
knew that in advance. For me to have gone in
a different way mid scream would not have been taken properly.
Speaker 3 (28:21):
I think my.
Speaker 4 (28:22):
Best coach is, like it's in our book about coach
Bob rud at Lafayette College, my backfield coach, quarterback coach.
Speaker 3 (28:29):
Guy was a great communicator.
Speaker 4 (28:30):
He communicated with me, and it was through communicate. My
respect was out of communication and on intimidation. Now, I
don't think that Bobby's trying to intimidate there, and I
know Zim wasn't necessarily or not at all trying to intimidate.
They were just trying to get their point across. And
that's the way they knew how to do it. That's
how their daddies talked to them, that their coaches, their
mentors spoke with them.
Speaker 3 (28:52):
I think it's great. I love the direct.
Speaker 4 (28:53):
Method because I've also had that too. So there's so
many different ways to get your point across. I think
the overarching concept is to be consistent. Whatever that approach is,
be consistent with it. They knew what to expect from Bobby.
They knew what to expect from Zim or Bob clear
bobba Aloo, who was one of my greatest mentors. I
love that stuff. Maybe I wish I had started out
(29:18):
that way a little bit more, but that's just not
my nature to be that way. But I can't say
that I don't love those that the nature is to
be that way. I like directness. That's the truth tellers
of the world. I mean, we tend to dissemble or
try to soften it a bit. Honestly, without compassion equals cruelty.
(29:38):
I read that one time, and I think that's that
always sticks with me. So in their own compassionate way,
Zim or Bobby or Bob Aloo, that was their way, man.
And there was no gray areas, Brother, nothing was gray.
It was black and white and it was beautiful.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
Our condolences to the Cox family. He left a huge
legacy on this game. And I think it's more than
you know the numbers that you could look up in
terms of wins and losses and championships. It's all the
players who played for him, uh and the things he
taught them about about baseball and about discipline and about life.
So those legacies certainly will continue. Joe, I want to
(30:15):
get your take on a trade. You don't see a
lot of trades that are made in May, but the
San Francisco Giants traded Patrick Bailey to Cleveland. Patrick Bailey
is known as the best framer in terms of catching
and receiving the ball behind the plate in Major League Baseball.
But let's face it, he can't hit. I mean mean
blunt here talk about truth tailers. Two twenty four career
(30:37):
hitter who this year was slashing one six, two thirteen,
one eighty three, one eighty three was this lugging percentage?
Now we know all the Giants last in the major
leagues in offense. They just can't afford to give up
another spot in the lineup, no matter how well you
are framing pitches. I think, Joe, this is a debate
(30:58):
and I'd love to get your take on this, the
impact of a good receipt behind the plate. Now Cleveland
is signing up for this. I mean they now have
Austin Hedges and Patrick Bailey. Neither one is going to
hit two hundreds, but they're gonna do a great job
running the staff calling a game, calling pitches and quote
(31:20):
unquote framing, which has been devalued a little bit by.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
The ABS system.
Speaker 1 (31:27):
So listen, they paid a high price here. They gave
up a quality pick, first round pick, a compensition pick.
I think it's number twenty nine in the draft, and
as well as a good young arm. They have one
team trading a catcher because you know they need some
more offense, and you get another team taking up that
catcher because they know he can't hit, but they want
to sign up for a guy who can and lean listen,
(31:49):
we know this is the way forward for Cleveland, right
who can run a pitching staff and putting it in
It's almost like they're treating the catching position like a
pitcher position, like you could impact the game.
Speaker 2 (31:58):
We don't care if you hit or not.
Speaker 4 (32:00):
I've been following that pretty closely. Actually, Yeah, the catcher
can have a tremendous impact on the on your pitching
staff obviously in your team in general. I've always felt
you you definitely, I've always wanted defense out of that
position as a young scout. That was one of the
things I was taught by Larry Hims back in the
day that we always rate it. The tools and the
importance of those tools, you know, receiving, throwing were so big,
(32:23):
and the hitting, hitting with power were at the very
end of the requirements for us to turn into player
as a catcher for the draft, So yeah, it's I
I as a as a manager, I want somebody back
there that really yes, first of all, can handle the staff,
and as a catcher myself, one of the highest compliments
(32:44):
I could have received among the pitching staff was that
pitchers would come up to you and say, I love
throwing to you.
Speaker 3 (32:51):
Wow, that was it.
Speaker 4 (32:53):
I didn't care if I was over ten, over twenty.
If the pitchers loved throwing to me, I could. I
could survive. I could withstand oh for four, s oh
for five is whatever strike, that's whatever it might be.
If my pitchers love throwing to me and they relay
that to me on a personal level. Now, that doesn't
mean that the manager's going to recognize that or the
organization is.
Speaker 3 (33:13):
But at least I knew I was doing the right things.
Speaker 4 (33:15):
And that was a combination of things, whether it was
receiving the ball, blocking the ball, calling the game, putting
time in all the different things. That's because the pitchers
see all of that they see all of that, they
know your dedication because I've had catchers that weren't nearly
as dedicated to their craft as they should have been.
Might have been, you know, somewhat good in regards to
their other tools, but if they don't put the time
(33:37):
in with that staff and these pictures can't feel that love,
it becomes a little.
Speaker 3 (33:41):
Bit more difficult. Then you're gonna have a little bit
of a conflict there.
Speaker 4 (33:44):
So yes, and you said framing not as important. It
is important still obviously you get the two challenges. But
what happens when the challenge is the challenges run out
and you can't actually utilize them, and then all of
a sudden you've got catchers that are jerking the ball
around a little bit better than others, and you know,
I know, framing and whatever you want to call it,
but mag god, they just pull pitches so much. And
I still don't understand why the umpires. Maybe some don't
(34:08):
let them get away with it, but now with the
ABSD really cannot. But there's still once the challenges run out,
that's going to be a big part of the game
moving forward. So reading all of that, you're right, treat
him as a pitcher, and I'm here to tell you man,
I would even hit him ete. Like we talked about
what I used to do with the with the Cubbies.
With the National League rules, I to pitcher rights sometimes
(34:30):
to clear them and then also get the potential to
pinch h for him sooner in a close game, late
when you're losing, and further weare you're putting them somebody
in a nine hole that really feeds to one two better.
So I'd be curious how they would handle him in
a batting order too. Could go on and on about it, man,
but pitching staffs that love catcher or a catcher makes
(34:54):
a big difference.
Speaker 1 (34:55):
Yeah, so I guess you're on board with this, giving
up talent and a draft pick to get a catcher
hitting one forty six. It's interesting because the Giants apparently
it's soured on him and including his game calling and
he had a couple of situations with relief pitchers late
in the game where he's calling the same pitch over
and over again. You've got Buster Posey there, President Baseball Operations,
(35:16):
obviously a former catcher.
Speaker 2 (35:18):
They clearly weren't happy with with whatever it was.
Speaker 1 (35:21):
I think besides his lack of hitting, because they you
have to know he has a limited ceiling hitting. But
one team saw him as a valued piece and the
other team didn't. It's a fascinating trade. We'll see how
that works out.
Speaker 3 (35:32):
What quick asking a question? Is he he's a switch hitter?
Isn't he?
Speaker 2 (35:35):
He is a switch hitter?
Speaker 3 (35:37):
Okay?
Speaker 4 (35:37):
So what side is he better from? If there's a
better side, is there a better side?
Speaker 1 (35:41):
Look at career numbers against the right handed pitchers. From
left side he's two twenty two. The other side he's
two twenty eight. Yeah, ops six oh six and six eighteen.
The slug is three twenty five and three thirty eight.
Speaker 3 (35:52):
He's equally bad.
Speaker 4 (35:55):
But I'm just saying that I would actually pick a side.
There's got to be whatever his natural side was. If
he's that bad, pick a side and let him just
focus on one side for a bit and see if
somehow that does benefit him.
Speaker 3 (36:09):
Does he not catch up to velocity? I don't know
what breaking ball.
Speaker 4 (36:13):
I'd love to see this scott and report against him
and how he's being attacked, and see if there's like
a di cauld measure, bass feed, all these other different things.
I would pick a side and just you know, stay
with your doing catch and wise pick a side.
Speaker 3 (36:25):
There might be a more comfortable side.
Speaker 4 (36:28):
Just based on how he grew up, because normally these
guys start on one side and obviously attempt to do
the other, and then he's got a split his time
working on both sides in.
Speaker 3 (36:36):
An attempt to become a better hitter.
Speaker 4 (36:38):
I just be curious if they would pick one side
and just go ahead and be the catching guru of
all times.
Speaker 1 (36:43):
What's interesting about Cleveland to me is up until the
start of this decade they had only four seasons in
their history franchise history where their catchers hit two sixteen
or less. And now it's happened like seven straight years.
This is what they do in Cleveland. I'm sure they'd
love to have a Mike Piazze Tite behind the plate,
but emphasis pitching and defense. A Hi, Joe, You've got
(37:06):
a big history in southern California, going back to not
just managing but scouting players. Does the name Gary Harjess
mean anything to you, Gary Harjus, He's from Long Beach
back in the seventies early eighties.
Speaker 3 (37:21):
It sounds familiar. It sounds really familiar.
Speaker 1 (37:24):
Well, I want to tell his story because it's a
Moonlight Graham kind of story.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
Okay, he's the last player to.
Speaker 1 (37:32):
Do something the major leagues that is extremely rare but
been done only twenty six times. We'll talk about that
right after this on the Book of Joe.
Speaker 2 (37:54):
Welcome back to the Book of Joe.
Speaker 1 (37:56):
You know, I started looking this up the other day
that Cincinnati Reds had a player and it was I
only looked it up it was his one hundredth birthday. Obviously,
not us anymore. Ray Manderos at the age of eighteen
in nineteen forty five. This is when they were trying
to fill out the rosters during the war. He's basically
a sandlot player from California. Signed at eighteen, he got
(38:18):
into a major league game as a pinch runner. They
let the pitcher hit Bucky Walters that they pinch ran
for him, and then he never played another game in
the major leagues. Imagine that you make your debut at eighteen,
pinch run, never getting at bet, never get in the field.
That's it the entire year career. It turns out he's
one of twenty six players who had this Moonlight Graham
(38:38):
kind of moment. Moonlight Graham played on defense. But I'm
talking about a guy who pinch runs, never gets to
play defense or getting at bet twenty six of those
and the last is are aforementioned. Gary Harges. He did
this in nineteen seventy nine for the Pirates date. So
the next to the last day the season, extra inning game,
(38:58):
pinch runs.
Speaker 2 (39:00):
That's it.
Speaker 1 (39:01):
And of course the seventy nine Pirates they won the
World Series and he actually got a partial share Joe
from the seventy nine Pirates World Series champ. You know
how much he got a thousand bucks, not even two
hundred and fifty bucks. So anyway, Gary, he's the last
one to just have one appearance in the major leagues
and it's strictly as a pinch runner.
Speaker 2 (39:23):
That's it. One time pinch running. So he did play
for like eight years.
Speaker 1 (39:29):
West Coast guys, he's playing for the Portland Beavers in
nineteen eighty two. In April, he gets traded to Kansas
City and they want to send him to Omaha. Wow,
they're affiliate in the minor leagues. Well, he wants to
stay on the West Coast. So he said that's it,
I'm done, and he quit. He went home and he
(39:50):
enrolled in a place called Controlled Data Institute in southern
California to learn about this new thing called computers.
Speaker 2 (39:58):
But the money quote.
Speaker 1 (39:59):
From Gary Harges, he was asked about, you know, his
major league career pinch running appearance. He said, he was thinking,
just let me get one game so my name can
get into the book. Because when you do, it's it's
just like the movies. Your eyes light up. You never
want the night to end. You just want to play
(40:20):
ball like you did when you were a kid. How
about that poetic that's our moonlight, Graham of the pinch
running variety, Gary Harges.
Speaker 4 (40:30):
That's beautiful. I mean, that's all we ever wished for.
It's so refreshing to hear that kind of language, talk, sentiment,
however you want to describe it, it's exactly. I mean,
I'm looking out my window right now in northeastern Pennsylvania
and I'm just thinking about all the crappy fields we
played on.
Speaker 3 (40:46):
Backer.
Speaker 4 (40:46):
We played on a coal bank northeast field. It was
actually like slate. It was black slate. Played for the
YNPA softball team there. And you go, there's a field
in Beaver Metals, which happens to be where Normal Larker's from.
Wayne Larker's dad, Normal Larker played for the Dodgers and
almost won a batting time Beaver metals is right, And
I'm telling you, man, there was actually boulders on that field,
(41:08):
not just rocks. And you just all you ever wanted.
You just wanted to play baseball on anything. As long
as there's a group of guys there to compete against,
that's all that mattered. So absolutely understand his sentiment. It's
fully for him, the fact that he that he ran
with another career and was able to do so and
put it down and continue along his life. Just about
(41:31):
the Pirate situation, I would imagine they were clinched by then.
The Pirates were clinched before the second two games left
in the season.
Speaker 3 (41:38):
That's Chuck Tanner.
Speaker 4 (41:39):
I'm just I'm betting that that Tanner uh just said,
we got to get this guy in the game somehow.
I would not or that that whole group is that
whole group that they's a man, they were pirates, they
were that was That was a tough group right there.
But Chuck Tanner is one of the nicest people I
met in the game. And we had some common friends
back in Davenport, Iowa. So I'm wondering if if that
(42:00):
was something that Tanner really wanted to make sure it happened.
They get Gary Harg just any game, because just for
the reasons that Gary har just just described or demonstrate it,
his name will be in the book and something you
remember for the rest of his life he could tell
his grandchildren about. You actually think about those things as
a major league manager. Sometimes that is so cool.
Speaker 1 (42:18):
And I'm glad you brought up the fact of playing
on all those lousy fields, Joe, because this is gonna
sound like you know, it snowed every day when we
went to.
Speaker 2 (42:27):
School and we walked back and forth five miles.
Speaker 1 (42:30):
But you're absolutely right when you started playing and moving
up the ladder and started playing on better fields, man,
the pristine field. And this went for me anyway, just
covering major league baseball. When you got to a major
league field, it was nirvana. You'd never seen anything like it. Now,
either fortunately or unfortunately. Kids growing up and playing they're
(42:53):
playing on a lot of cases, they're playing on turf fields,
but they're playing on pretty much groomed fields in the
most part. If you're playing any kind of travel ball
which didn't exist back in the day. Right, the access
to good fields, good facilities. A lot of these kids
who wind up going to the major leagues that have
that privilege, if you will. But you remember, Joe, what
(43:15):
it was like playing on some of these fields. How
about the batter's box that would be so dugout, you know,
especially the right handed batter's box, so the dirt was
all gone. A home plate would be raised like the
home plate would be above your ankles, and sometimes the
corners of the plate were, you know, pointing up. If
you slid into home plate, you were taking your life
into your hands. You learn how to field ground balls
(43:36):
with bad hops all over the place.
Speaker 2 (43:38):
I'm not saying it was better back.
Speaker 1 (43:39):
Then, Joe, but you understand what it was like as
the joy as you started moving up and playing on
better fields, and you're like blown away by it.
Speaker 4 (43:47):
Nothing worse than not being able to get your feet
level in a batter's box, which was impossible.
Speaker 3 (43:52):
You're absolutely right. The whole game is played through your feet.
Speaker 4 (43:55):
Your feet, good feet in the game of baseball applies
to everything that you do, and you always look from
the ground up and in regards to breaking down a player.
I always worked from the ground up. Then you look
at results and work backwards, and that's how you evaluate
a player. So when your feet were uncomfortable or your
feet weren't good, that would be very noticeable from a
(44:18):
scouting perspective. And absolutely you're not able to do everything
that you'd like to be able to do in the game.
It's it's you can talk about any game. You can
talk about basketball, you can talk about football, whatever. People
don't talk about feet enough. Feet really, that's where it
all begins. Man, feet on the ground, ability to move
those things, you know, very smoothly, subtly, quickly, and have
(44:41):
educated feet as a catcher, being being converted the catcher
as a at Lafiette College by Norman Gigan, who was
my manager at that time. The footwork required, I mean,
probably gave me a little bit too much in the beginning. However,
that was the way of the world at that point
and was god. It was like it was like speaking
a new language, learning my footwork as a catcher for
(45:01):
the first time, you know. And you got guys in
college on the ball pretty good. Richie Carter to good fastball.
Colonel had a good fastball, good curveball. Say I'm talking
like ninety plus, So it's all of a sudden. It's
a very quick game. So it's all about your feet.
And yeah, it really in these batter's boxes, pitchers, mounds,
playing in short stuff with the rocks in front of you,
(45:21):
and you're always trying to pick them.
Speaker 3 (45:22):
And throwing them out of the way. Man, what a beautiful,
beautiful way to grow up.
Speaker 1 (45:27):
Oh well said as you always do, Joe, you bring
us home.
Speaker 2 (45:31):
What do you have for us on this episode or
the book of Joe?
Speaker 4 (45:34):
I guess I knew about Gary Hargis in advance somehow, right,
And I am here to tell you I didn't, because
we're talking about all these joyful moments when you were young, right,
forever young? And I wow, that was my motivation today
was to be forever young.
Speaker 3 (45:53):
What does that mean?
Speaker 4 (45:55):
Just thinking about the game itself, just thinking about me,
you know, regarding like I can't wait to about to
play some golf today. You know, I'm working on my RV.
You know, things things like that. I mean, it's just
like stuff that never leaves you that you you loved
as a kid and then gosh, you still get to
do it when you're a couple of years older, and
I got several, but there were just so many good
(46:15):
ones regarding this, And start with satual page because this
it's almost like a Mark Twain quote. But how old
would you be if you didn't know how old you are?
Twain said something about it.
Speaker 3 (46:26):
But I did not have a memory or a mirror.
Speaker 4 (46:28):
I would always think I was sixteen years of age,
because when you look at your eyeballs, it's still sixteen.
I think that's great stuff, Doctor Dylan d h I
ll o in for every young means positive attitude and
love for life.
Speaker 3 (46:44):
We grow old when we quit playing.
Speaker 4 (46:47):
That's in growing old as mandatory, but growing up as optional.
Walt Disney. All these things are true. I mean, you
know the term act your age. God do I hate
that term.
Speaker 3 (46:55):
I never do.
Speaker 4 (46:56):
I'd like to know who invented that in the first place,
or why they somebody that just was very mean spirited
or just.
Speaker 3 (47:04):
Could not keep up.
Speaker 4 (47:05):
So yeah, the forever young concept, there's nothing wrong with that.
Being Peter Pan is a good thing. So Gary Harjus
when he talks to his grandkids and his kids and
his you know, relatives are just the guys he has
a beer with What a great story to talk about
pinch running on that night he was told to run
out there to second base, Chuck Tanners, get get get hard,
just in the game. All that stuff, Man, there's got
(47:27):
to be there's a there's a life story just revolving
around that. So growing all is mandatory, but growing up
is optional. Mister Disney, I love that.
Speaker 1 (47:35):
Yeah, I'm so glad you brought up two of my favorites,
Mark Twain and Satchel Page. Can't go wrong there, and
I will add Joe Madden to that list as well
because it dovetails with something I know that that you'd
like to say about seeing things with first time eyes.
Speaker 3 (47:48):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (47:49):
I mean there's a lot of wisdom.
Speaker 1 (47:51):
In that, and if you can do that, that also
keeps you quote unquote young. When you're looking at things
like you're seeing them for the first time, you're not jaded,
you're not accepting things or just thinking that you've seen
it all and done it all. If you can see
things through first time eyes, you still have that. Let's
face it, the word is joy, and you associate joy
(48:12):
with being a kid.
Speaker 2 (48:13):
So that's I love that phrase.
Speaker 1 (48:15):
Jove with that you've always talked about seeing things with
first time eyes.
Speaker 4 (48:18):
We tend to move away from that and we become
jaded or everything becomes you get used to. To complete
the phrase, it was like, see things with first time
eyes and then feel things with first time passion.
Speaker 3 (48:31):
Not easy to do.
Speaker 4 (48:32):
I mean, obviously those things that are just they just happen,
but don't get in the way of your inner being
wanting to see something for the first time or feeling
that first time passion.
Speaker 3 (48:42):
I don't know.
Speaker 4 (48:43):
I think I was motivated with seeing Conniemac Stadium for
the first time. When you walk up the Clown's mouth
there and all of a sudden, the feel presents itself.
Speaker 3 (48:52):
Wow.
Speaker 4 (48:53):
Talk about taking your breath away and the impact that
makes on a young man. So yeah, we should never
get don't get used to things, just open your eyes
and really appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (49:04):
What's around us.
Speaker 4 (49:04):
I come back to Northeastern Pennsylvania. A lot of my buddies,
they'll live here their whole life, and I get in
and out of here, and I always see this place
with first time eyes and feel with that first time
passion when I get back home. It's still one of
the most glorious places ever, and the summers here are unbeatable.
So I'm looking forward to the summer of twenty twenty
six again, just like I did in nineteen seventy five
(49:26):
or seventy four, let's say, when I tore it up
with the scraton Red Sox about forty five minutes from here.
Speaker 2 (49:31):
Awesome stuff, Joe, great job. We'll see you next time
on the Book of Joe.
Speaker 3 (49:35):
See you, brother, Thanks man.
Speaker 1 (49:45):
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