Full Episode - Which Democratic Presidential Hopeful Has The Best Shot In 2028? + How Democrats Can Push Back Against Trump w/ Governor Wes Moore - The Chuck ToddCast

Episode Transcript
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(01:49):
As I told you earlier this week that we were
gonna not get in the way of your Thanksgiving and
drop a pot on Thanksgiving Thursday, we have a special
one on Friday, and this is a special one. This
is a it's a it's a it's actually the audio
and you'll see some those of you that watch on
YouTube as well. It's my interview with Wes Moore from

(02:12):
the Texas Tribune Festival a couple of weeks back. It is, uh,
you know, fascinating. I'll tell you what I took away
from which I shared with you earlier, but I wanted
you to you know, I know I shared highlights with you.
I don't think you've heard the whole thing unless you
already went on newsphere. And if you have, thank you
for doing that. I appreciate that. But I'll I'll tell

(02:34):
you what was interested. What I took away from it.
One is that Wes Moore is clinging to the center
lane more so than I think folks realize.

Speaker 2 (02:42):
That's one. Two I think that he is.

Speaker 1 (02:46):
I thought it was something I pointed out to you earlier,
right that you know, when I asked him, what's one
thing Trump gets right? It's like he's always doing stuff.
He's always doing stuff, and that Democrats have to stop
stop having commissions and committees and they need to start
acting and moving. And Tim Walls went even further, even said, hey,
you know, Democrats, in hindsight wasted the first two years

(03:10):
of the Obama presidency when they didn't pursue their entire agenda,
thinking there was only so much they could get done.
That isn't the way Trump behaves, right, Trump, you know,
is always constantly trying to.

Speaker 2 (03:21):
Move the ball.

Speaker 1 (03:22):
Move the ball, move the ball. Not everything gets through.
In fact, in some ways a majority of what he
tries to get done doesn't get done. But you know,
the reason it's politically been successful for him for as
long as it has is that the voters look at
it while he's trying. Even if he's failing, he's trying.
I think now they're starting to hold more accountable on

(03:42):
results rather than attempts. But he was getting benefit for
attempts even if the results weren't there. Well, he's trying
to change things, not everybody's working with them. So I
think those are the two things that I took away
that I find interesting. But you know, I know I
just may have biased you from what I said he
hugged the center lane, but that is something else. And

(04:03):
when I was going to make sort of the you know,
we're basically now we're at the end of the first
the first first year, going into the four year cycle
of the next presidential election. And on the Democratic side,
when you think about where we started, you know, at
the beginning of this year, the candidates being sort.

Speaker 2 (04:20):
Of talked about the most.

Speaker 1 (04:23):
Where people actually like Kamala Harris, Wes Moore, Josh Shapiro,
Gretchen Whitmer, Andy Basheer, aoc.

Speaker 2 (04:38):
Pete Bodhagic.

Speaker 1 (04:40):
Fast forward eleven months, and I would say the biggest
new name on that list is Gavin Newsom. Right at
the time, everybody knew Gavin Newsom had the ambition and
he wanted to run for president. He wanted to be
but he was not being talked about as sort of
somebody that was viable as as the next nominee. I
think that's the biggest development that's taken place over the
life year. It is that Gavin Newsom is now shot

(05:03):
into the top tier of potential presidential candids in twenty eight. Now,
I would argue he's shot in the top tier based
on process rather than policy, and he got there because
he looks like he's a fighter. He got something done
that looked very difficult, putting a referendum on the ballot,
to get voter approval, to essentially do partisan jerry mandering

(05:26):
as a response to the Texas jerry mander, and right
on house races. If you told me he was going
to get all that done, I would have been very skeptical.
So he deserves sort of what you know, if you
were to say, who is the MVP of presidential Democratic
politics in this first off year going into twenty twenty eight,
it's Gavin Newsom. He's won. Gavin Newsom won twenty twenty five.

(05:49):
You know, barring some sort of collapse in the next
three weeks here on his own, that's something that we
don't know about, right, there's no doubt Gavin Newsom on
the on the on the Democratic side, he won twenty
I think on the Republican side, you got to say
jd Vance one, right, because he was asked to be
the air Apparent, and I think he looks more like

(06:09):
the air Apparent today than he did win this year began.
But I don't think he won it in the same
you know sort of You can't say he's he's stronger
today than he was at the beginning of this calendar year.
But Newsom literally went from bottom to top.

Speaker 2 (06:25):
And I think that.

Speaker 1 (06:27):
And it shows and that's going to be the real question.
And as you listen to this Wes Moore interview, something
you should contemplate, which is what do the voter what
are the voters going to want in twenty seven and
twenty eight, particularly in twenty eight when the primaries begin
versus what do the voters want right now?

Speaker 2 (06:44):
And that you know, if you're.

Speaker 1 (06:44):
Asking you, if you tell me why am I still
skeptical of Gavin Newsom is going to be a front
runner come twenty twenty eight? Is are they going to
want a fighter, you know, this kind of fighter, partisan
warrior taking on Trump and taking on the Republic the
Trump machine. Is this what they're going to wat on
in twenty seven and twenty eight? Well, tell me the
results of the twenty six midterms, right, And that is

(07:05):
another way that I sort of was listening to wes
Moore a little bit. I think I think the reason
why Wes Moore doesn't want to be seen as a
presidential candidate yet is I think he wants to give
some space to twenty six. Number one. You'll see him
travel the country quite a bit, by the way, and
I think you're going to see Wes Moore be invited
to states that Gavin Newsom won't be invited to, which

(07:25):
it thinks worth you know, Rob Saying is going to
be an interesting canary, sort of canarian the Colmont. Rob
Sayd's the likely Democratic nominee for governor in Iowa. Best
shot Democrats have had to win the governorship in Iowa
in over a decade. He is one of the you know,
to me, if Democrats can't have a can't say their

(07:47):
midterms went well. If they're not winning a few governorships
in red states, you know, whether it's Iowa, Ohio, those
are probably Alabama. I'm bullish on Doug Jones' andasy in
Alabama for what it's worth, because I think Tommy Tupperville
is I think Senate races are about Jersey color. Governor's

(08:11):
races are about personality, and I don't know if Tommy
Tupperville has the is fully aware of that. He thinks
this is going to be as easy as a center
race is as my as as the great lead. Corso
once said, not so fast, my friend. I have a
feeling that Tupperville is gonna have a much harder time
against Doug Jones in a governor's race than he did

(08:32):
running against Doug Jones in a Senate race. So, but
the point, the larger point is, is Doug Jones going
to invite Gavin Newsom to campaign with him? Is Doug
Jones gonnavite Wes Moore to campaign with him? Is Rob
saying going to invite Gavin Newsom to campaign with him.
Is Rob saying I'm going to bte wes Moore to
campaign with him. I think after you listen to this interview,

(08:55):
you'll have a more definitive answer. Okay, again, I'm not
gonna you know, I I think I'm giving you plenty
of hints of where I think you'll start to see it.
By the way, it won't be just wes Moore, Jos Shapiro,
Andy Basheer, Wes Moore feel like they're almost you know,
I don't think all three of them are are all
equally viable in twenty eight.

Speaker 2 (09:15):
One of them is going to rise above.

Speaker 1 (09:17):
The three because they're all kind of making the same pitch, right,
which is that they you know, they're a bit more
moderate and temperament. They can appeal to folks from in
a broader context, a little less progressive whatever that whatever
that means to you, right, And I think that that's
going to be a bit subjective depending on the voter.

(09:39):
But certainly, you know, I think only one of those
three becomes sort of the darling of that moderate donor
crowd and that third way wing of the of the
Democratic Party. So and that's my question about Gavin News
We saw this in twenty oh five and twenty oh
six with Hillary cl in Barack Obama, where any Democrat

(10:02):
running in a red state invited Obama, any Democrat in
a blue state invited Obama in Clinton. But Clinton didn't
get a lot of invites to the red state races.
She didn't get a lot of invites to Missouri to
senate with Claire mccaskell, or with Kansas governor with Kathleen Sibilius, Right,
but Barack Obama was asked to be in Kansas and

(10:23):
Barack Obama was asked to be in Missouri. That is
one way that I'm going to be watching twenty twenty six.
So I single that out there because you know you're
going to see you see this, you know Gavin Knwso
look to his credit, he accomplished goal number one, which
is he made himself viable. And I think there was

(10:43):
a real question about whether he was going to be
considered a viable nominee.

Speaker 2 (10:47):
I think he made himself a viable nominee.

Speaker 1 (10:50):
The next one is for him to overcome the stereotype
of San Francisco in California. Right, does he prove he
can play in purple and at America as well as
he currently plays in Blue America. We'll even get that opportunity,
you know, will you? And that's that's another question I have.
So will we see him campaign in Michigan side by

(11:13):
side Jocelyn? We might see it with a Jocelyn Benson,
Sorry about that with hitting the mic. But will we
see him in Ohio with Amy Acton, who I think
is going to be a competitive candidate for governor against
Vivick Ramaswami.

Speaker 2 (11:29):
Maybe we will with her.

Speaker 1 (11:31):
So this is this is another way to sort of
think about the presidential race. That is where my mind
was when I was having this conversation with Wes Moore,
trying to sort of tease out issues that people are
going to want to know more about him as they
decide whether is this guy a viable future president of

(11:51):
the United States. I can tell you that I have
a I certainly came away I had an idea of
who Wes Moore was, and I had an idea of
what kind of candidate he could be.

Speaker 2 (12:06):
I now see what he could be.

Speaker 1 (12:08):
I don't know if what he sell, if the voters
are going to buy what he's selling. By twenty seven
or twenty eight, right, And I think a lot of
that will depend on what are the results of twenty six.
If Democrats are wildly successful, they might not want a
partisan warrior as their nominee going into twenty eight.

Speaker 2 (12:25):
The party might.

Speaker 1 (12:26):
Actually want somebody who can get stuff done right. And
that would be the way a Wesmore, Josh Pirol, Indye
Basher would pitch themselves. But if Democrats come up short
in twenty six, maybe only narrowly win the House, don't
win the Senate, don't win these red state governorships, do
they want to pivot for more of a partisan fighter,
a little bit more of a fighter, a little bit
more of a warrior. Well, then all of a sudden,

(12:47):
maybe that does make a Gavin NEWSOMN JB. Pritzkerg and
AOC a bit more viable on that front. So anyway,
just a little little flavor of thoughts for you to
think about as you listen to this conversation that I
had with Wes Moore. I'm gonna just so you know,
do stay with me after the end of the Wes

(13:07):
Moore interview, because we've curated a few questions that are
very twenty twenty six and twenty twenty eight oriented. So
we'll have a little bit of Q and A following
the Wes Moore interview.

Speaker 2 (13:18):
So with that, enjoy the sit down.

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Speaker 3 (14:46):
I think y'all are ready to hear from our keynote, right,
all right, let's see this. I will introduce to them.
They are ready to come on first our moderator. Our moderator.
Of course you all know him, Chuck Todd. He's a
six time award winner and former host of Meet the
Press on NBC. He now hosts the Chuck Todcast, which
is a weekly podcast featuring in depth interviews with political leaders,

(15:10):
and of course he will be interviewing Governor Wes Moore.
Wes Moore is there we go. He is the sixty
third governor of the State of Maryland and the state's
first black governor. That's right, that's right. He's the author
of the Other Wes Moore, which is a perennial New
York Times bestseller, and his most recent book is Five Days,
which tells the story of Baltimore in the days following

(15:32):
the death of Freddie Gray in twenty fifteen. Please welcome
them both to the stage.

Speaker 2 (15:48):
Well, this is good. We save a little bit of time.
I don't have to do.

Speaker 1 (15:51):
The extra work of reminding everybody about their cell phones
and the silencing and all of that. But official, I
want to do my part on behalf of the Texas
Tribune and welcome. It is an honor to have Governor
Wes Moore here. We're both DMV ers. So for those
of you, I still weird out by saying DMV because

(16:14):
I think the most people that are like, why are
you talking about the Department of Motor Vehicles. We're trying
really hard in the man Atlantic to make this district Maryland,
Virginia things stick, aren't we exactly?

Speaker 2 (16:23):
You know it goes?

Speaker 1 (16:25):
Well, let's just get started. I got a laundry list
of stuff I want to ask you about, but I
actually want to start with this. You're a pretty optimistic guy. Yes,
there's a lot of people in this room that feel
a lot of pessimism about the country right now.

Speaker 2 (16:43):
And I have it in my family.

Speaker 1 (16:45):
I think a lot of people, which is you vacillate between,
oh my god, where are we headed to?

Speaker 2 (16:52):
Look we're going.

Speaker 1 (16:54):
To be okay? Where do you sit on that strum?

Speaker 2 (17:01):
You know?

Speaker 1 (17:01):
Of this is you have Gavin Newsom who says, you know,
he doesn't ever want to have free and fair elections
again versus this is a period in time in American
politics and things are cyclical.

Speaker 2 (17:14):
What say you, Well, I think both those things are true.

Speaker 4 (17:21):
And first let me say what a real pleasure it
is to be back here with y'all, and thank you
so much for having me.

Speaker 2 (17:27):
And it's an honor to be a too shot, that
really is.

Speaker 4 (17:32):
And shout out to Sonal and shout out to the
team for putting on once again another amazing, amazing conference
that I'm just truly humbled in honor to be a
part of.

Speaker 2 (17:41):
I think both of those things are true. I don't
think Donald.

Speaker 4 (17:43):
Trump wants to have more free and fare elections. The
reason I'm optimistic is because I believe that if we
do our part. Donald Trump is not going to have
the final say that this actually becomes a unique moment
for where leaders actually have to show themselves. And you know,
one of the great things that I feel about, you know,

(18:04):
and this is going to sound a little bit odd,
but this. You know, I've now been governor for for
two and a half years, and we're really proud of
all the work that we've gotten done in two and
a half years. But these past ten months have both
been the most challenging and the most.

Speaker 2 (18:21):
Important that we've had to deal with over the past
two and a half years. Challenging for the obvious reasons.

Speaker 4 (18:28):
And I can talk about why Maryland that no state
has taken the brunt of Donald Trump more than Maryland,
where I have over two hundred and seventy thousand federal employees,
more than any other state in this country. Donald Trump
has now fired over fifteen thousand of my people. That
we have not received a dollar of federal disaster relief
despite having historic floods over in western Maryland. That he's

(18:50):
taken away billions of dollars in grants in capital towards
our state. That he has now tried to take away
the FBI building because he says that he will never
let the FBI building go to a liberal state, that
he's threatened to put national Guard inside of our streets.
I mean, like, there is no state that has had
to take on this. Not again, not glancing blows, but
I mean direct shots from the president. The thing that

(19:15):
I also know, though, is this is despite all of that,
this is actually a chance where leadership has the chance
to show itself. And I think it's never mattered more
who your governor is. It's never mattered more, who your
attorney's general is. It's never mattered more whether your people

(19:37):
have fight or not. And I love the fact that actually,
in this moment, that we have a chance to show
what does a better direction actually look like like. I
don't have the luxury to just rail against the system.
I don't have the luxury of just talking about how
bad things are. I have an obligation to show my
people what a better direction actually looks like. And so

(20:00):
the thing that continues to give me and why I
still am deeply, deeply optimistic about our future is both
because I know our history and like, listen, if anyone
thinks that these are this is the worst of times,
I kind of remind people that, you know, I literally
come from a state that if you look at my
state flag, my state flag, because people forget Maryland is
the northernmost southern state in the country, Like the state

(20:22):
flag of Maryland is literally a combination. It's a contradiction, right,
It's a combination of both a Confederate symbol and a
Union symbol.

Speaker 1 (20:30):
You know, some of us joke that the Mason Dixon
line has moved somewhere into Virginia.

Speaker 2 (20:33):
Now, but I take your point, but you.

Speaker 4 (20:35):
No, But I mean, but it's like real, It's like
the bloodiest battles of the Civil War were fought in
our soil. Right, that we are literally the birthplace of
redlining in the state of Maryland. That we're the birthplace
of Harriet Tubman, the birthplace of Frederick Douglass.

Speaker 2 (20:49):
And part of the reason that I do have a real.

Speaker 4 (20:52):
Sense of hopefulness and optimism is, you know, I imagine
to myself, like, what would a hypothetical conversation between between
me and Harriet Tubm and be like like me telling Harry,
telling how difficult my day was, you know what I'm saying.
So it's like, so I just you got to keep
this in context where I understand what Donald Trump thinks,

(21:13):
but I'm just a firm believer that Donald Trump is
not going to have a final say.

Speaker 1 (21:16):
How much effort should be made to confront Donald Trump
by the Democratic Party leaders, and how much effort should
be made about laying the groundwork for a world post
Donald Trump.

Speaker 4 (21:30):
So I think there has to be a combination where
where we do have an obligation to push back, because
you cannot watch what is happening right now and think
that we're just going to sit here and take it
or ignore it. I have a very real problem. I
have a very real problem with people who, in this

(21:51):
moment are getting really quiet. I have a very real
problem in this moment with these people who these leaders
who somehow think that if we just sit quiet, the
beating will stop, or if we just say nothing, he
will ignore us. And I just want to be very clear,
that is not how this game works, and that's not
how this movie's gonna end. Like we have an obligation

(22:15):
both to push back, but we also do have an obligation.

Speaker 2 (22:20):
To push forward.

Speaker 4 (22:22):
And you know, and I think about it, and I
was speaking earlier with with with so one about it
where there will be a post Trump world, right, And
I think that everything that we are seeing right now,
it's going to fall into five categories, and we just
have to be clear about what category everything we're talking
about falls in. There's some things that are just broken

(22:43):
and will never be repaired. There are some things that
are broken and we can repair. There's some things that
are broken and we can repair. But differently, there are
some things that will survive that we need to break,
and there's certain things that will survive that we need
to keep.

Speaker 2 (23:03):
We just have to be.

Speaker 4 (23:04):
Very clear and very honest about what things fall in
each of those five buckets. But I think so we
have to come up with that balance of yes, pushing back,
but also being very clear that that pushing back is
not going to be enough. We also have to find
ways of pushing forward as well.

Speaker 1 (23:21):
Let's talk about the government shutdown. This had to feel
you had to be torn about it. On one hand,
you you just talked about the importance of pushing back.
On the other hand, you have a lot of constituents
that were out of work and we're struggling because they
weren't going to get paid, and it's a you can't
pay your rent with a promise, right, you need to
actually have cash in the checking account. Was it a

(23:43):
good tactic? Was it the right call? Should it still
be shut down?

Speaker 4 (23:48):
Yeah, I'm I'm I'm gonna be honest, Chuck, I'm not
torn about it at all.

Speaker 2 (23:53):
There is no reason that the government should have been
shut down.

Speaker 4 (23:56):
But because think about it, like this has very and
I don't know a single go that says, oh, yeah,
we should just shut the government down like this has.

Speaker 2 (24:03):
Real human consequences for us. You're glad it opened up. Oh,
I'm very glad and opened up.

Speaker 4 (24:10):
But I'll give you I'll give you a caveat and
and perst of all, first of all, it's just absurd
that Washington, DC can just shut down.

Speaker 1 (24:20):
Like I mean, like like, by the way, it's two
legal people, one in Carter's Justice department, one in Reagan's
Justice department, who just came up with a legal theory
that this is what happens when there's a funding dispute,
that we should just cease operations.

Speaker 2 (24:36):
It's crazy, it's.

Speaker 1 (24:38):
Ridiculous, it's not in the constitution. It should never happen.

Speaker 4 (24:42):
Ever, Okay, ever, we should never allow a government shutdown
and like, think about it, Like I can't walk into
my state house and say, you know what, Maryland, we're
shutting down. I can't do it in McDonald's ki McDonald's
ken ken a family. Could you walk to your family
tonight and say, you know, y'all.

Speaker 2 (24:59):
Shut down for shutting down?

Speaker 1 (25:01):
Shut down streaming right?

Speaker 2 (25:04):
Like?

Speaker 4 (25:04):
No one does this except for Washington, DC. So the
whole idea that we have government shutdowns is just so
absurd on its face, and particularly when you have very
real human consequences. I'm like, again, I have over two
hundred and seventy thousand people, many of whom and who
have the audacity to do things like making sure that

(25:25):
our food is safe, who have the audacity of doing
things like making sure that we're finding the cures to diseases,
who are crazy enough to think that their job is
so special that they're trying to keep planes from colliding,
or that or that that military veterans like myself, that
that military veterans can get the medication that they need.

(25:46):
Like these are who you went after, and by the way,
for many of these people that you then turn around
and force them to go to work with no pay
while we have people in Washington.

Speaker 2 (25:56):
Who are getting paid and not going to work, right, So.

Speaker 4 (26:03):
We did so in our state, we made sure that
we were going to take care of our people. So
that's why in our state, you know, I said that
we were going to do and I worked with our
private tech to partners. I said, we're doing a moratorium
on all evictions, on all utility shut offs. You were
not going to evict our federal workers or shut their
utilities off because they are not getting paid for something

(26:24):
that is not their faults. That we told all of
our federal workers, all these people who are going to
work and not getting paid but still paying to go
to work, that I told them all all transportation that
we have in the state of Maryland, just show your badge.

Speaker 2 (26:37):
Transportation for you is free. You do not have to
pay for anything.

Speaker 4 (26:43):
And that we had to do things like and then
we saw a situation where you are to president of
the United States who's doing things like breaking the law
and trying to cut off SNAP despite the fact that
by the way, twenty eight thousand SNAP recipients in our
state are military veterans, one in one in one in four.

Speaker 2 (27:02):
Of our federal workers are military veterans.

Speaker 4 (27:05):
So I love this for a person who claims to
love the military, and the first thing you're doing is going.

Speaker 2 (27:09):
After our veterans.

Speaker 4 (27:10):
So the federal governm should never have been shut down
in the first place. However, I will say this how
deeply inhumane it is and it was to think that
a good compromise is that a prerequisite for reopening the
government is kicking people off of health care or having

(27:31):
premiums jump by eighty and ninety percent. So I am
very glad the federal government is reopened. I'm very glad
that we can stop doing stupid things like shutting down
our federal government. But I do want to be very
and I know I didn't have a vote, so no
one asked me my opinion, but I do want.

Speaker 2 (27:47):
To be very clear.

Speaker 4 (27:48):
I would you would never find anything ever with my
signature on it, that thinks it's okay to kick people
off of health care as somehow That means you have
a justifiable or you have a functioning government. If you
were kicking people off of health care, it means your
government is not functioning, and we have to be very
very clear about that.

Speaker 2 (28:07):
Let me ask about.

Speaker 1 (28:11):
When the president was starting to pick on other cities
after he picked on Washington, Baltimore was mentioned, and you
did an interest. You made an interesting decision. You said, no,
we don't want the National Guard here, that's a mistake. However,
I'm going to bring in UH state police to assist

(28:33):
in Baltimore. Frankly, I thought that was pretty politically savvy.
But I will ask this, Does that mean Donald Trump
has a point about our cities?

Speaker 2 (28:45):
Not at all? So why did you do it? Well,
I didn't.

Speaker 4 (28:48):
The reason I did it, it wasn't a response to Donald
Trump at all. You know, when I first became the
governor of Maryland, we had a violence crisis in our state.
In twenty twenty two, the year before I became the governor,
Baltimore City was averaging about a homicide a day. That

(29:09):
if you look at the eight years before I became
the governor Maryland was Maryland average. The Maryland homicide rate
had doubled over an eight year period. The non fatal
shooting rate did double.

Speaker 2 (29:20):
Do you know what's the cause?

Speaker 1 (29:21):
How much of it was COVID, how much of it's
something else?

Speaker 2 (29:24):
Well, no, I think there's a whole bunch of reasons.

Speaker 4 (29:27):
I thought you think it had one if when you
neglect communities and you allow hope to leave, violence will
enter and will fill the space. I think we had
a very real issue when it came to law enforcement,
and I think, you know, when I talked about, you know,
the book that I wrote five days, how there was
a steep cutoff and fall off of law enforcement people

(29:48):
who were signing up, who are staying on the role.
And so there's a few things that I did because
I was very clear, I said from Jump Street when
I knew the crisis we had, I'm not going to
spend my eight years just giving eulogies and offering thoughts
and prayers that we're actually going to address the issue.
And so when I came on board, we made historic
investments in local law enforcement and making sure you had

(30:10):
not just boots on the ground, but saying we can
have a police force that moves with appropriate intensity and
absolute integrity and full accountability. That we said we're going
to invest in technologies and basically saying you can utilize
technologies to make sure that if someone commits a violent crime,
particularly a violent crime with a firearm, I want them
in handcuffs in twenty four hours. And also we said

(30:31):
we're going to invest in our community, community violence intervention groups,
community violence interruption groups, because so much of the violence
that we were seeing in our communities it was retaliatory
by nature, and so you must invest in community to
be able to help to address those issues. When so
here was the reality when Donald Trump started making his
threats that for the past two and a half years,

(30:53):
there is no state that has seen a faster drop
off when it comes to violent crime than this state
of Maryland. That the last time the homicide rate was
this slow in Baltimore City, I wasn't born yet. That
we are literally watching historic drops in violent crime, historic
drops and property crime and auto thefts and carjackings and

(31:15):
homicides and non fatal shootings. And the President wants to
look at us like we're the problem. I said, mister President,
you don't need to look at us like we're the problem. Actually,
you should look at us like we're the solution. And
if you want to spend time, if you want to
spend time actually learning instead of bloviating from the Oval
office these like nineteen eighties Archie Bunker, you know, you know,

(31:37):
then you should come spend some time with us.

Speaker 1 (31:39):
So I'm did you offer to take him for a while.

Speaker 2 (31:41):
I did.

Speaker 4 (31:41):
I offered it take him for a walk. I told
him if it was too long a walk, I would
get him a golf cart. I you know, you know,
I'm I'm I I mean, but because the thing about
it is, and this is also why it was so
offensive to me. You know, he uses the military like

(32:06):
it's some form of like some like these childish toy soldiers.
And it's just really rich because he's someone who does
not know what it means to put on the uniform.
He doesn't know what it means to say good by
to your family. He doesn't know what it means. He
does not know what it means to be willing to

(32:29):
put your life on the line for the person to
your left or to your right. And as someone who does,
as someone who served my country, as someone who led
soldiers in combat, I just found it deeply offensive that
his solution to this was this, this, you know, this
childish endeavor of saying, well, we'll just send the National.

Speaker 2 (32:50):
Guard into cities.

Speaker 4 (32:52):
And let's be very clear if there was any data
to show that this would actually work. Again, I'm a
data driven person. Here is the problem. There is no data.
This was not a data driven decision. This was an
emotive splurge that the President has a habit of making.
And so if you look at what's happened, even when
he's deployed National Guard to Washington, d C. And these

(33:15):
other places, here's what I can tell you. The National
Guard members who are not trained for municipal policing. That
is not what they are trained for. And I know
that because I am the commander in chief of the
Maryland National Guard, and I know what my people are
trained for. And they are supposed to be deployed during
times of emergency, during times of crisis. They are not
there to perform performative stunts. And so the truth is

(33:37):
that we've had members of the National Guard who have
taken more.

Speaker 2 (33:40):
Selfies than done arrests.

Speaker 4 (33:42):
We have members of the National Guard who have picked
up more trash than actually condructed drug busts. And so
the issue that I had, of the multiple issues that
I have with the President when he was threatening to
do this and trying to make these, you know, these
ridiculous comments about me and members of our National.

Speaker 2 (33:59):
Guard, is how deeply disrespectful it is to members of
our military.

Speaker 4 (34:05):
Because these are people who are willing to risk their
lives if necessary because they trust that their commander in
chief is taking their lives seriously. They trusted the directions
that the commander in chief are making are not just lawful,
but informed. And they trusted their commander in chief would
never put them in a situation that they are not

(34:26):
trained for, and never put them in a situation that
they are not prepared to excel in. And I found
it just deeply disrespectful to our national Guard, deeply disrespectful
to their family members to ask them to do these
quixotic missions simply because the president is trying to prove.

Speaker 2 (34:41):
A political point.

Speaker 1 (34:45):
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Their fee is free unless they win. So I read

(35:48):
today actually that the incoming mayor of New York City
has been calling various governors seeking advice on how to
deal with Donald Trump. And one of the governors he
called was you. Is that a correct report?

Speaker 2 (35:58):
That is correct? Port? I Do you mind sharing the
advice you gave them? Yeah?

Speaker 4 (36:02):
No, I the the advice, uh, you know, the advice
that I gave him is performance matters more than anything else.
What Donald Trump is talking about, what Donald Trump is
doing is performative. What people want in your jurisdiction is performance.
They want results. And this is actually one of the
big things that I think about for the Democratic Party,

(36:22):
where you know, people are like, well, what's the message
for the Democratic Party? Like the Democrats don't have a
messaging problem. The Democrats have a results problem. You've got
to actually deliver results, and and and and the and
the thing that I'm very clear about is that if
you you know when you say when when the present
is like, we need to talk more about affordability, No,

(36:44):
you need to address affordability, sir. You don't need to
talk about affordability. You need to make sure we're doing
things like making sure that housing is more available because
one of the leading causes for people to leave jurisdictions
is rising housing costs. And if you have increased demand,
which means more people coming to an area, the thing
you have to do to address it is you have
to increase supply. You have to build more housing, and
you have to build it fast. Right if you really,

(37:07):
if you really want to address things like rising energy,
cause it's not just talking about rising energy costs. You
need to have more energy options, and you need to
stop doing what we're watching the president do where in
our in our state, I'm very clear that we want
to be able to explore all energy options because you
want to increase supply. So that means why are we
not looking at investing in things like solar, Why are

(37:28):
we not investing in win, Why are we not investing
in nuclear? And look at nuclears a clean energy option.
But no, but the President still continue to take an
ideological perspective to it and then turn around and say, well,
let's blame democrats why prices are going up? And so
the thing and the council that I that I really
gain is that like, listen, you know, don't don't get distracted,

(37:48):
stay focused, and stay focused on delivering the results that
the people of your jurisdiction need.

Speaker 2 (37:54):
And if you do that, you're gonna be fine.

Speaker 1 (37:55):
It does seem as if you only deal with you
only respond, You only respond to Trump. You don't seem
to seek out confrontation with Hi.

Speaker 4 (38:03):
I have no desire to pick a fight with the
President of the United States, you know what I'm saying.
But I refuse to let the President of the United States,
you know, pick on my people where I've been very
clear with the people of my state, like I will
work with anyone, but I will bow down to no
one and I will not let and I'm not going
to let the people of my state become a pincushion

(38:25):
for his.

Speaker 2 (38:26):
For his uh, you know, for his childish sportness.

Speaker 1 (38:28):
I'm going to drop the Trump subject. Heure after this
one last question. He's won two terms for president. What
does he do? What does he do well that has
allowed him to get elected twice?

Speaker 2 (38:41):
H what have you learned anything from him? No? Absolutely,
and listen, I think we will be. We would be.
We can spend all night.

Speaker 4 (38:51):
Long talking about the dangers of what he is doing
and how we literally have a president of United States
who is using the Constitution like it's a suggestion box.

Speaker 2 (39:01):
I think I wish he did use it as a
suggestion thought.

Speaker 4 (39:03):
Actually he should take more suggestions. But we would also
be foolish not to acknowledge the speed in which he
moves where.

Speaker 2 (39:16):
You know, I think about it this way, where you.

Speaker 1 (39:20):
Didn't care about institutions and whether they have to write
their own version of the memo before you get to
institute implement your plan.

Speaker 2 (39:29):
Right.

Speaker 4 (39:29):
Oftentimes everything from Democrats is like an eight year research paper.
It's like, well, let's do another analysis of the analysis
that we concluded of the last analysis.

Speaker 1 (39:41):
You need to make sure to approve a committee to
do that analysis.

Speaker 4 (39:43):
By the way, Donald Trump did not need a two
year commission to decide he was going to start a
trade war. Donald Trump did not need a four year
analysis to decide that he was going to break the
law and kick children off of snap. Donald Trump did
not need need a eighteen person commission to decide that

(40:06):
he was going to take parts of the Constitution and
literally pick and choose which judge's orders he would follow
and not. And I just think that the Democratic Party
has got to stop being the party of no and
slow and starting the party of Yes. And now I
think the Democratic Party have got to start moving faster.
I think the Democratic Party have got to be start

(40:27):
being more more deliberate. I think the Democratic Party has
got to stop making everything a tenth grade debate Club
research paper.

Speaker 2 (40:36):
And I just.

Speaker 4 (40:36):
Believe that, you know, there is something that we do
understand that he actually does that he moves with a
level of speed and frankly, Donald Trump, and I said,
Donald Trump is a fantastic vessel for the frustration. He's
someone who's going to tell you what's wrong with it.
He's going to see someone who's going to tell you
who broke it, who's to blame for it, and why

(40:58):
he alone can fix it.

Speaker 2 (41:00):
Right.

Speaker 4 (41:00):
Donald Trump is a vessel for the frustration, but he's
not a vehicle for the solution. I think the answer
that the Democrats have got to do is we've got
to start being the vehicle for the solution and stop
pretending like these problems are not problems. Because if we
start moving with a sense of speed to address the
issue that if we can have, if our solutions actually

(41:21):
match the speed in which people's lives are falling apart,
then you're not going to have election problems anymore.

Speaker 2 (41:26):
But that's the thing I think we've got to learn
from him.

Speaker 1 (41:29):
Let's you brought up affordability, and you brought up electricity,
and this is this is It looks like the electric
bill in twenty twenty six is going to be what
the price of eggs was in twenty twenty four, right,
meaning this is going to be an issue. We're seeing
it everywhere. Right, It was a big issue in New Jersey.

(41:49):
I'm a Virginian. Laden county is on fire about these
data centers. Maryland's in an interesting spot right as far
as where you places on the grid, and you know
you're having to have more transmission lines right are coming
through the state in order to power these data centers
in the v of the d m V. And yet

(42:14):
the way we do electric bills it's all state regulated
and all of that stuff. This feels like we are
we're sort of a slow motion train wreck where suddenly
government's going to get left with a huge tab to
subsidize a whole bunch of people who can't afford electricity anymore.
What what what can be done proactively in your state

(42:37):
to lessen the impact of what is clearly going to
be a surgeon electrical uh, a surgeon use off the grid,
which is just going to raise all of our electric bills.

Speaker 4 (42:47):
And it's it's it's it's insane that we've even gotten
here in the first place, because there's just been a
deep level of negligence that is that's existed.

Speaker 1 (42:57):
You know, we have now you don't have to tell
Texans about a power grid issue, that's true. I think
they're well aware and laugh about it.

Speaker 2 (43:04):
You know, it's real.

Speaker 1 (43:05):
Let's hope there's not a tough winner here, that's right, right,
They have a tough winner. That grid goes down, all
of us may pay a price across the country.

Speaker 4 (43:13):
I'll say, And it's not just y'all that will pay
it pay pay a larger price.

Speaker 2 (43:18):
It's it's it will be the entire country. Right.

Speaker 4 (43:20):
So there's a there's a few different things that I
think we have just completely missed a boat on. We've
missed a boat when it comes to understanding the level
of surging, surging demand that exists. And it's not just
it's not even just surging demand that you have from
UH companies and technology, it's also just the human surge
of demand that has now existed that we have not

(43:43):
made the investments when it comes to grid technology. We
have not made the investments when it comes to pipeline
and when you do have a few of these operators
for example, you know, and for for us it's it's
it's PJM where you know where there's about thirteen states
that PGM covers down on where the processes are opaque,
the processes are convoluted, and the processes are things that frankly,

(44:05):
for a lot of the states we don't have a
measure of involvement in and so we have PJAM, who
will then make decisions about which projects they will then
allow without the input that's coming from us, from from
our individual states, from Pennsylvania, from Maryland, from Virginia, from
all from Jersey, from all these other states.

Speaker 1 (44:24):
But your state regulatory agency with the power companies doesn't
have any impact on this, can.

Speaker 4 (44:29):
We because because they are they are an independent soution
with rates. All they do is just approve rates well.

Speaker 2 (44:34):
And what they do is they prove projects okay.

Speaker 4 (44:37):
And so the problem is is that if you have
a chow point for projects that allow to come on board,
it means that you have a decreased supply. And so
I think you have to have reform within PGAM.

Speaker 2 (44:49):
You have to.

Speaker 4 (44:50):
Allow and be speedier about putting more projects that allowed
to come on board. We have to do a better
job of diversifying the type of energy options that we have.
If you can do that, you're then able to increase
the supply that's then able to address the supply and
demand curve. The problem is is that we have found
ourselves in a situation that for a decade plus there

(45:11):
has not been this type of investment and so now
you come up with a situation where you have a
crisis situation and something where people are now watching their
energy bills continue to skyrocket for the same exact product line.
And so I agree, I think this is one of
the crucial issues that we've got to be able to
sort on, and frankly, something that no individual state alone

(45:31):
is going to have to figure out. It's going to
take really a coordination between all of our individual states
to do it.

Speaker 1 (45:36):
I hear you, but look, you're in an election year.
People are going to want some They're going to want
some help right now. Yes, what could you do in
the state level?

Speaker 4 (45:47):
Well, can we can help when it comes to things
like like, for example, just a few weeks ago, I
just put an additional ten million dollars that is going
towards energy prices and energy bills as we're coming up
to as we're coming up to our winner seats and
helping with heating bills. So we've done rebates that have
gone back to the people, to the people of our state.
So there are things that we can do to help
out with the immediate pain, but I think that has

(46:10):
to be matched with also additional.

Speaker 2 (46:12):
Investments that's can be made to deal with the.

Speaker 4 (46:14):
Long term processes because none of us have an interests
or frankly, there is no state that has a balance
sheet to continue just finding more expensive band aids. We've
got to actually fix the wound that is causing increased demand.
But where supply is just not keeping up or matching
with it.

Speaker 1 (46:32):
What should all these AI tech companies that are skyrocketing
the stock market, they have these incredible valuations, they're building
these data centers and look, there's it's not every state
where the data centers are causing this problem. It's some
states that they are, some that they aren't.

Speaker 2 (46:49):
And some data centers have no I have their own.

Speaker 1 (46:51):
Power centers and all of that. What I guess the
question is, if somebody wants to build a data center
in Maryland, what does that What would a Microsoft have
to do or an IBM if they wanted to build
a data center in Maryland, what would you want them
to do to minimize the impact on your residence?

Speaker 2 (47:09):
Well, I think there's a few things.

Speaker 4 (47:11):
One is, and I've been very clear, and we've actually
you know, had projects that we say are not going
to move forward, because if you're not moving forward with
the community, then things cannot move forward.

Speaker 1 (47:20):
These aren't job creators? Are they these data centers.

Speaker 4 (47:22):
Well, they're job creators, but they're not job creators. And
when you're looking at that long term job creators, no,
and and not massive job creators. Right, So listen, I
am actually I believe that we need to do a
better job of critical infrastructure. I believe that our state
needs to do more to invite critical infrastructure. I also, though,
believe that nothing can or will happen in my state

(47:44):
without the impact.

Speaker 2 (47:45):
Of the community.

Speaker 4 (47:46):
And I think the community will always have the final
say with me. It's part of the reason that I
have a lot of issues with some of these projects
that PGA, going back to PJAM that they then put
on board, where you were literally putting together lines and
transmission lines and you're looking at them, you're putting it
throughout my map without realizing that people actually live there,

(48:07):
like it's a game about where they are placing this
without any form of feedback from us or any former
feedback from the community. And so I believe that we
need to invest in critical infrastructure. I believe that when
we're talking about the future of AI and cyber and quantum,
that these are things that I want my state to
be not just a national but a global leader in

(48:28):
But I also know that this has to happen in
partnership with the community. This is not going to be
what we're doing to the community. It has to be
what we're doing actually with the community in these build outs.

Speaker 1 (48:36):
Are you working with any of these companies that have
taken that attitude? Oh?

Speaker 4 (48:41):
Well, we are, because for all these companies, they understand
if you're not taking that attitude, then you're not doing projects.

Speaker 2 (48:47):
In my state. You before you were a politician.

Speaker 1 (48:52):
I first met you when you were CEO of something
called the robin Hood Foundation yea in New York City.
It's a credible charitable organization primarily funded by the Wall
Street folks.

Speaker 5 (49:07):
Right.

Speaker 2 (49:07):
Would you say fair? Yeah?

Speaker 1 (49:09):
I say this because Wall Street money, right, is a
dirty word in the Democratic Party today.

Speaker 2 (49:17):
Well, that's why I want to give you a chance.

Speaker 1 (49:19):
Yeah, make your case for why Democrats shouldn't be so
skeptical of Wall Street.

Speaker 4 (49:25):
Well, I think about the work that I did at
robin hoodon and it's this idea that for each and
every one of us, we should understand the scourge that poverty,
and particularly child poverty is in our society. I mean fundamentally,
that's actually the reason why I ran. That's really the
reason why I ran for governor in the first place,
is you know, when I was talking with you know,

(49:47):
I remember actually talking with a board member, Robin Hood,
and when I told him, I think I'm gonna leave
and I'm gonna go run for governor. And he said, well,
what is she doing to work on? I'm like, I
want to work on things like child poverty. I want
to work on things like the racial wealth gap. And
he's like, but you're doing that here. Why would you
leave and run for office? And I remember looking at
him and saying, and.

Speaker 1 (50:06):
Acquire a whole bunch of extra bureaucracy to do those things.

Speaker 2 (50:08):
Sometimes, right now, that's right, yeah.

Speaker 4 (50:09):
And I remember looking at him and I said to him,
why do you think poverty exists in the first place?
Like do you think poverty exists because one group is
just not working hard enough? Like we have poverty because
we have policies that allow it to exist. We have
poverty because we have policies that put people in poverty
and keep them in poverty. We have a wealth gap,

(50:29):
not because one group is working eight times harder. But
there are policies that allow this to exist. And so
I think that the only way you're actually going to
address it that you know, I remember doctor King had
a quote that sat on my desk where it said,
philanthropy is commendable, but the philanthropists can never forget the
economic injustice that makes philanthropy necessary. And my whole thing

(50:52):
is this is that for our philanthropists, what you're doing
is good, but if you do not understand why the
policies that are being put in place, the policies for example,
like we saw where you know, the big beautiful Bill
that was the largest upwards consolidation of wealth in world history,

(51:15):
that literally was just making it. It created all these
challenges so billionaires could get a tax cut, and so
I have. And if you look at what we did
in the state of Maryland where we actually did an
adjustment to our tax code, where we gave the middle
class a tax cut in my state.

Speaker 2 (51:35):
And yes, I asked.

Speaker 4 (51:37):
Wealthy Marylanders to pay more because I said, I have
no problem asking those who have done very well and
who have benefited from the society that has been created,
to say, I'm asking you to pay a little bit
more so we don't have to lay off police officers
and firefighters, so we don't have to lay off school teachers,
so we can make sure that we can have safe

(51:57):
communities and have the best public education system inside the country.
And so I'm a person who says and believes deeply
like I don't you know when people say, you know,
do you lose sleep over billionaires? I said, I don't
lose sleep over billionaires. I want billionaires to pay their
fair share. But I don't lose sleep over billionaires. I
lose sleep over how many people we have living in poverty.

(52:19):
And I think we need to stay focused on ensuring
that if we can create a more equitable society, and
if we can create a society that listen, if you
do well, congratulations, God bless you. But what I am
saying is this, you cannot do well just simply on
the backs of working people and then not expect that
there should be some form of way that we should

(52:40):
have a tax system that is a fair tax system.

Speaker 2 (52:43):
That allows you to be able to give back into
the society that you benefit the front. There is a
poll that was out a couple weeks ago.

Speaker 1 (52:57):
By my former posters, I call them my phone more posters,
I miss my guys at UH that we do the
NBC News poll with but plurality of Democrats. Democrats were
the only political group that had a net negative view
of capitalism and a net positive.

Speaker 2 (53:13):
View of socialism.

Speaker 1 (53:17):
Why do you think that is?

Speaker 2 (53:19):
Well?

Speaker 4 (53:20):
I mean, honestly, I'm not sure if people if you
ask people the benefits of you know, what is socialism
or what is capitalism, that people would.

Speaker 2 (53:28):
Actually give you an understanding of what that. I don't
think they know the definitions.

Speaker 4 (53:32):
No, I mean, like I honestly, like I remember, you know,
I remember having a conversation with somebody who actually lives
up in New York and this was actually during during
uh the primary for the mayor's race, and they were
like all in on Mamdani and so I was like, oh,
that's that's cool. So I was like, so, you know,
so you know what excites you there telling me all

(53:52):
this stuff? And I was like, are you democratic socialists?
And they're like, what's that? Like?

Speaker 2 (53:58):
They didn't. They weren't making the connect.

Speaker 4 (54:00):
That got sh And I think for a lot of people,
the idea of what is a capitalist, what is a socialist?

Speaker 2 (54:08):
What is this?

Speaker 4 (54:09):
Was that I think if you ask people fundamentally, like
what do you believe in? Like, I can tell you,
like what I believe in, Like I believe that that
that not everyone should end up in the same spot,
but everyone should have a fair shot. I believe that
we actually should be a society that believes opportunity is
a real thing and not a punchline.

Speaker 1 (54:30):
Equal access not equal outcomes.

Speaker 4 (54:31):
Yeah, and and that and that we all shouldn't have
the same equal solution for everybody. I mean, it's the
reason that, for example, that we have made the largest
investments in trade and apprenticeship programs inside of our state
because I'm very clear, like we have some of the
best four year colleges in America and something that I'm
very proud of in the state of Maryland. But I'm
also very clear I am going to end this lie

(54:53):
that every single one of our students needs to attend
one of them in order to be economically successful. It's
just not true that we are going that we've eliminated
this idea that we're evaluating high schools based on your
four year college acceptance rates. That's an input, but it's
not a key performance indicator. It's basically saying that like,
how do we make sure that we're having opportunities for
people to be able to live out their God given

(55:15):
opportunities and God given potential that people should have a
chance to pursue work and wages and wealth and know
that there's not one singular path in order to get there,
you know. And I tell people like, listen, I joined
the army when I was seventeen years old, Right, I
think I'm the only governor in this country who graduated
from a two year college, right, you know, I and

(55:38):
you know, and things worked out pretty well. So it's like,
so there is no one singular path that we want
people to go down. And I think when we're just
talking about what does it mean to have a society
that works for everybody?

Speaker 2 (55:51):
I believe that we need to know I am a capitalist.

Speaker 4 (55:56):
I also, though, believe that we need to make sure
that we have a fair enoughable society as well.

Speaker 1 (56:01):
Do you think the S word is a branding problem
the socialism? No.

Speaker 4 (56:06):
I think that we need to make sure that our
society actually works for people. And when you have a
situation where, you know, I don't think that the answer
for how do we fix society is complete redistribution.

Speaker 2 (56:25):
I think the way you.

Speaker 4 (56:26):
Actually fix society is you remove the barriers that are
keeping people from participating and competing in the first place.
I think one of the biggest ills we have on
society right now is a level of concentrated poverty, and
not just concentrated poverty, but generational poverty that we have
within our state. It's the reason that we in Maryland
pass something called the Enough Initiative, which stands for engaging neighborhoods, organizations, unions, governments,

(56:51):
and households basically everybody. And it is the most aggressive,
most aggressive place based strategy that this nation has seen
to address the issue of concentrated and generational childhood poverty.
That I believe that we need to be able to
address the racial wealth gap, because the problem with the
racial wealth gap is that it doesn't just hurt one group.
Is that the racial wealth gap has cost this country

(57:12):
sixteen trillion dollars in GDP.

Speaker 2 (57:15):
Over the past two decades. That's GDP.

Speaker 4 (57:18):
And so if you really want to have an economy
that works for everybody, have an economy that actually everybody
can participate.

Speaker 1 (57:24):
In, you the issue of reparations became a bit of
a of a back and forth with your legislature, particularly,
I think the Black legislatures there. We've been studying this
for decades. Yes, why don't why hasn't it happened?

Speaker 2 (57:43):
Well?

Speaker 4 (57:43):
And the reason when this came up in the General
Assembly and they passed another commission, Yes, another study, your
study and frankly this this.

Speaker 1 (57:56):
By the way, let me I apologize. I forgot to
tell you guys about questions. And we're a couple of
minutes away from him taking your question, so hurry up
and get him in.

Speaker 2 (58:04):
They're up there.

Speaker 1 (58:05):
I was a bad moderator anyway, Governor going.

Speaker 4 (58:07):
So, so if you look, if you look at our state,
we have we have done four studies over the past
twenty years dealing.

Speaker 2 (58:16):
With this these types of issues.

Speaker 4 (58:18):
Sure, and I know that for a fact because one
of which my wife worked on it. And so when
a bill was passed for me to do another study,
I vetoed it, and I vetoed it because I'm like,
I'm sorry, what are we studying? I don't need another
two year study on something that I already know the

(58:41):
answer to.

Speaker 1 (58:41):
Is this about whether to do it or how to?
In your mind, should the discussion be about whether to
do it?

Speaker 2 (58:46):
Or how to do it.

Speaker 4 (58:47):
I think the work of repair is a now action
because there.

Speaker 2 (58:53):
Is no one who needs to explain to me the
history of.

Speaker 4 (58:57):
Racism that we have in the state of Maryland. Like
I said, Maryland is the home of redlining. We have
watched more when you look at things like unfair appraisal
values and historically red line neighborhoods. That has been one
of the greatest wealffts that we have seen in our
nation's history. And it was born in Maryland that we

(59:18):
have seen. How you know, when people talk with pride
about the history of Frederick Douglas and Harriet Tubman, I'm like, yeah,
but you do understand that there's a reason that Frederick
Douglass and Harriet Tubman were born in Maryland and we
now know their stories because some of the most creative
and racist policies in our nation's history were born in Maryland.
You know, I am I am the first African I'm

(59:39):
the first black governor in the history of the State
of Maryland and only the third African American ever elected
in the history of the United States as governor. And
it is not because I'm only the third African American
ever qualified to be a governor, like we have to
be clear, there's a history to this, and so so
the reason so, the reason that I said the reason
that I said that is this when I say what

(01:00:01):
is the work of repair? The work of repair for
me does not require another two year study. The work
of repair is things like what we did where we
invested over one point three billion dollars in our states
for HBCUs, which is a sixty percent increase than what
we saw for my predecessor. The work of repair is
doing things like doing things like procurement reform, where we've
now invested over eight hundred million dollars in black owned

(01:00:23):
businesses in the state of Maryland and making sure we're
giving a fair distribution of state dollars that are.

Speaker 2 (01:00:28):
Going to black owned businesses.

Speaker 4 (01:00:30):
The work of repair is doing like what we did
with our Just Community Initiative, where we put four hundred
million dollars going to communities that have been historically that
have been historically discriminated against through Jim Crow, through segregation,
through mass incarceration. The work of repair is doing things
like what I did, what I did last year when
I pardoned over one hundred and seventy five thousand misdemeanor

(01:00:52):
cannabis convictions in the stroke of a pen, which is
the largest mass part in in the history of the
United States of America. That's the work of repair and
what I'm not interested in more studies. I'm interested in
actually doing the work. And that's the message that I
wanted to send.

Speaker 1 (01:01:08):
I want to invite our friends at the Texas Tribune
up so we can get ready for the Q and
A portion here. But I'm going to do one more
question to you, of course, the question that annoying people
like me are going to ask you a lot between
now and the filing deadline in New Hampshire. You have said,

(01:01:30):
but you have said I'm not running for president in
twenty twenty eight. It is not your fault that none
of us believe you, because no. I say this because
I'm old enough to remember when Bill Clinton pledged to
serve a full four year term and one reelection in
nineteen ninety and he did not serve that full four
year term. I'm old enough to remember when Barack Obama
came on Meet the Present said he's not running, and

(01:01:52):
then six months later came on Meet the President and said,
will I've got to change a heart. So why should
we believe you that you're not running in twenty eight.

Speaker 2 (01:02:05):
Well, first, because I'm not.

Speaker 4 (01:02:06):
But but but also you know what sherman esque means, right, Yeah, Okay,
you got German askue it if you know if nominated,
you will not you will not accept it. I am,
And this is this is this is a very a
very honest answer where I realize how much I'm playing
with house money right now. I am I'm probably the

(01:02:32):
most improbable governor in this country. Where I'm I'm literally
a person who watched my dad die in front of
me when I was three years old because he didn't
get the healthcare he needed. I'm a person who had
handcuffed my wrist by the time I was eleven.

Speaker 2 (01:02:50):
I'm a person who watched my.

Speaker 4 (01:02:52):
Mom, who is an immigrant, single mom, not get her
first job that gave her benefits until I was fourteen,
not get a job that allowed her to work one
job instead of multiple jobs until I was fourteen years old.
And I'm now the sixty third governor of my state.

(01:03:14):
And I love my work. I love the fact that
we have made Maryland has gone from being forty third
in the country and unemployment to now going a year
and a half of having amongst the lowest unemployment rates
in the entire country, That Maryland has had amongst the
fastest drops in violent crime anywhere in America. That Maryland

(01:03:35):
now is the first state in the country that has
a service year option for all of our high school graduates.
That Maryland, that Maryland is now the first state in
the country that actually has a playspation initiative to deal
with the issue of generational concentrated childhood poverty. That we've
been able to turn a deficit into a surplus and
give the middle class a tax cut, like I am

(01:03:57):
playing with house money right now. And so I uh no,
it's a note. It's a note because I mean, I listen,
I know that I've got I've gotten out four hundred
and thirty six days before I go back in front
of the people of my state and ask them for
another four years.

Speaker 2 (01:04:18):
And it's asked that I take very seriously. Actually, it's
a little lesson that I think, right, actual, Yeah, that's right,
that's till my next inauguration. View that's right.

Speaker 6 (01:04:25):
Oh, listen to running back now, that's kind of runnell
my next my next inauguration. Yeah, yeah, I will see
see the microphone to our friends at the Texas.

Speaker 2 (01:04:35):
Tribune and we hear from you.

Speaker 5 (01:04:37):
Cameron with the Texas Tribune, thank you so much for
your great questions. First one USI and Pico from Austin
ask what is one policy you support that the Democratic
Party avoids.

Speaker 4 (01:04:50):
It's interesting because I mean, like I I and I say,
I say, I say this. I say this in context
where I was not the choice of the Democratic Party.
You know, when I when I first ran for governor,

(01:05:10):
I ran against three statewide elected officials. I ran against
two Obama cabinet secretaries. I ran against the former head
of the DNC, and like me, the one who had
no political experience at all. And I laugh and I say,
you know, when I told my family I was running
for governor, I like, I had to convince my family

(01:05:31):
to vote for me. And it's not that we're not cool,
like we're cool, it's I had to convince many members
of my family to vote. So I don't I don't
really consider myself to be a creature of a party.
I mean I think about it this way where you
know where uh you know, when you know, over this
process of this past year for example, Uh, you know,

(01:05:53):
when I was very clear to members of the Democratic
Party in my state, we have a Democratic housel and
Democratic Senate, and I told the people of my party,
I said, listen, if anything is sent to my desk
that I believe infringes upon my executive authority or makes
it harder for.

Speaker 2 (01:06:07):
My cabinet secretaries do their job.

Speaker 4 (01:06:10):
If anything is sent to my desk that is an
unfunded mandate, or if anything is sent to my desk
that is a study or or an eight year commission,
I'm vetoing it. And I ended up vetoing more bills
than any Democratic governor in the history of the state
of Maryland by five x. So I actually think there's

(01:06:32):
a lot of Democrats who would say that, well, he
doesn't know what's align with a lot of things that
we think are priorities as a party. And frankly, I'm
okay with that because I don't consider myself one who
has to get put in a box.

Speaker 2 (01:06:48):
When we talk about our policies.

Speaker 4 (01:06:49):
When people say, do you believe when you're addressing you know,
economic growth, are you pro business or are you pro worker?
My answer is I'm not choosing that I'm going to
make sure we're supporting workers, that we've raised a minimum wage,
that we've been able to add an apprenticeship and trade programs,
that we have a permanent child tax credit and earn
income tax credit. And I've done things like permit reform

(01:07:10):
and regulatory form reform and made it easier for businesses
to be able to come and grow. We've incentivized businesses
to come and choose and stay in the state of Maryland,
because I believe if you believe if you have business
growth and businesses choosing your areas, then that means more
people are going to be hired, more entrepreneurs are going
to be created, and you have more economic growth.

Speaker 2 (01:07:27):
So I'm not choosing that.

Speaker 4 (01:07:28):
I'm a person who believes we made the largest investment
in law enforcement and made the largest investment in our community.
And so I it's difficult for me to answer because
I feel like so much of what I have done
has not been a political orthodox and there is I
don't call a party leader to ask permission when I
make decisions. I make decisions on behalf of what I

(01:07:51):
think is best for my people, and you know, kind
of let the chips call with their manage.

Speaker 5 (01:07:56):
Right Samuel from Austin asks, how do we bring back
by partisanship when the middle of the isle seems to
no longer exist?

Speaker 2 (01:08:06):
Thank you, Samuel, I would say this.

Speaker 4 (01:08:12):
I think the middle of the isle doesn't seem to
exist in Washington, but I don't think that's actually real
in communities and neighborhoods. I think the way you bring
back by partisanship is you actually show up. I mean,
I think about it this way. Where you know, I
remember on I think it was day two or day

(01:08:34):
three when I was governor. I was I had a
conversation with with a mayor of a town called Lonacone,
which is all the way in western Maryland, and he
was telling me about a water crisis he was having,
and he was.

Speaker 2 (01:08:48):
On a boil of water advisory.

Speaker 4 (01:08:50):
And when I was on the phone him, I said,
you know, mister mayor, I'm on my way. And we
headed out to western Maryland. And when I met him, uh,
he's become a good friend, a guy named a mayor Coburn.
When I met him, he said to me, he said, Governor,
do me a favor. Turn three hundred and sixty degrees.
So I turned three hundred and sixty degrees, and he said,

(01:09:12):
the only guarantee I can give you is you ain't
see a Democrat within.

Speaker 2 (01:09:15):
Five miles of anywhere. You just looked and he said, uh.
He said, but I'll tell you what.

Speaker 4 (01:09:23):
You're the first government has been here since nineteen ninety six,
and we've continued to work together.

Speaker 2 (01:09:31):
We continue to work together.

Speaker 4 (01:09:33):
When Maryland, when we had historic floods in Western Maryland,
which the President of the United States denied all federal
aid and federal lief to Western.

Speaker 2 (01:09:41):
Maryland, the most Republican part of the state.

Speaker 4 (01:09:44):
Literally seventy eight percent of that part of that state
voted for Donald Trump and he left them behind. And
he will not be forgiven for that. But I remember
when I announced my reelection, Samuel that that Mayor Coburn
and several other Republicans from all around the state were

(01:10:07):
the first ones to come out and endorse me. And
they came out and they said, they came out and
they said, listen, we might not agree with the governor
on everything, but I'll.

Speaker 2 (01:10:15):
Tell you what.

Speaker 4 (01:10:16):
He shows up and he creates a table that's big
enough for all of us. And so the thing that
I would say, how do you restore by partisanship is
don't pretend that bypartisanship is dead. What we're watching with
this reality television show in Washington, DC is not a

(01:10:37):
reflection of our communities where people are just fighting for
their people. They're just fighting to make sure that they're
not left behind. And I think as leaders, the reason
that we've been able to be successful in our state
with both Democrats and Republicans is because I think the
people of our state know that we don't get into
the partisan games in the back and forth.

Speaker 2 (01:11:00):
We just try to do good bye our people.

Speaker 4 (01:11:02):
And that's why I think that you know you're watching
at the state level that bipartisanship is very much alive
and well.

Speaker 5 (01:11:16):
John, the parent of a UMD student, asks what is
your message to those in their early twenties who grew
up during COVID and are now watching the upheaval in
this country's institutions. Uh?

Speaker 2 (01:11:32):
First, John, go terps. Go Terps. You know it's hard.

Speaker 4 (01:11:37):
It's I feel bad for a lot of these students too,
because for a lot of them, this measure of.

Speaker 2 (01:11:47):
Chaos and uncertainty is for it's it's.

Speaker 4 (01:11:54):
It's defining for them, and so I understand the frustration
I remember when I actually gave a graduation speech to
the University of Maryland two years ago. They actually they
followed up by asking Kermit the Frog to give it
the year after.

Speaker 2 (01:12:12):
I know how to feel about that, but it'd be
harder to follow Kermit act.

Speaker 4 (01:12:16):
It would be hard to Actually, I'm glad it went
before Kermit actually, but I remember the speech that I
gave to the graduates. Is probably the advice that I
would give to John to Uh, to your to your
child is when people are telling you what you want
to explore and what you want to study, you know,
do you choose stem do you choose life sciences?

Speaker 2 (01:12:41):
Do you choose medicine? Do you choose humanities?

Speaker 4 (01:12:47):
The advice that I would give them is, as they're
thinking about what is they want to do to prepare
themselves for the rest of the world, is choose tough.
Choose the thing that's going to force you to wake
up a little bit earlier. Choose the thing that's going
to force you to stay up a little bit later.
Choose the thing that's going to force you to get
out of your comfort zone.

Speaker 2 (01:13:08):
And stay there for a while.

Speaker 4 (01:13:10):
Because the reason that I think I've been able to
adapt in this moment is I think about my experience
in the military, where you know, I joined when I
was seventeen, I became an army officer by the time
I was nineteen.

Speaker 2 (01:13:30):
I deployed overseas.

Speaker 4 (01:13:33):
With a unit and I led paratroopers with a unit
that I actually joined when they were already in theater.
That part of my job was to try to get
Talybond members to try to leave and to join the
Afghan forces and to turn their weapons and join this
new Afghan government where no matter what the obstacle is

(01:13:58):
that comes in front of me. Now, I realized that
I'm never going to flinch because we're just built differently.
That was kind of forged out of us. And so
when you have a generation that's coming out of COVID
and then you have them now going into Trump and

(01:14:21):
we have all these things that are happening, the only
guarantee I can give to each and every young person
inside of my state is challenges are on their way.
I don't know what it's going to look like for you,
but it's on its way. And so the best preparation
that I can give you to how to deal with
it no matter what it looks like when it actually

(01:14:42):
comes your way, is choose tough now, because it's the
best preparation that you're going to have when that tough
thing ends up facing you and that thing is going
to learn that you're not going to lose sleep over it,
make it lose sleep over you.

Speaker 1 (01:14:58):
If you could wave a magic one, would you have
mandatory national service?

Speaker 2 (01:15:03):
Yeah? Absolutely.

Speaker 4 (01:15:04):
I mean it's the reason that we in Maryland. Maryland
is now the first state in the country that has
a service year option for all of our high school graduates,
where every high school graduate now is a chance to
have a paid year service and.

Speaker 2 (01:15:17):
They can choose however they want to do.

Speaker 4 (01:15:18):
They can work and they can serve veterans, they can
serve in the environment, they can work with young people,
they can work with older adults. The only thing we
ask is tell us what makes your heart beat a
little bit faster, and we're going to give you an
opportunity to do it, a paid opportunity to do it.
And I remember, you know, when I ran for governor,
I had people who I served with in the military who.

Speaker 2 (01:15:38):
Came and campaigned on my behalf. Many of them were
not Marylanders.

Speaker 4 (01:15:43):
Many of them were not Democrats, but they were literally
just coming in door knocking and saying, I just want
to tell you about the guy that I served with,
because I'm just a big believer in this time of
this political divisiveness, in this time of this political vitriol,
that service will save us because service is sticky, and

(01:16:05):
those who serve together will generally stay together.

Speaker 2 (01:16:07):
So absolutely, I want to make sure.

Speaker 4 (01:16:09):
And I would love it if every young person our
society could spend a little bit of time being part
of something bigger than themselves, learning how remarkable this country
is and learning that that line between them and somebody

(01:16:31):
else is not as thick as society wants us to
believe that it actually is.

Speaker 1 (01:16:39):
We got what two more and then we writer.

Speaker 5 (01:16:42):
From Houston asks what do you believe is the best
route for Maryland to overcome the significant redistricting roadblocks that
have occurred in the last few months.

Speaker 1 (01:16:53):
I knew the audience is going to ask about reistricting.
That's I left it off.

Speaker 4 (01:16:56):
I love it, and it's good to be in Texas,
the home of this conmerceation.

Speaker 2 (01:17:00):
In the first place.

Speaker 4 (01:17:04):
So I've just been very clear, and I know, you know, uh,
you know, listen, here here's what I know, every state
goes through this process every decade after the census comes
out that determines whether or not they have fair maps. Right,
and Donald Trump decided to start picking and choosing which

(01:17:29):
states should go through this process mid decade.

Speaker 2 (01:17:33):
Didn't He didn't call all of us. He called some
of us to include y'all. I called y'all first.

Speaker 4 (01:17:39):
And my only thing is this is that when you
look at this idea that if other if states are
going to go through a mid decade process of determining
whether or not they have fair maps. I don't know
why some states should do this and some states should
sit on their hands. My point is this is that
you know, and and by the way, this is actually

(01:18:02):
pretty consistent of what we have seen from Donald Trump,
where you know, whether it's calling states and saying I
need you to redistrict or whether it's calling election officials
in Georgia and saying I need you to find me votes.
It's just very clear that when he knows he cannot
win on policies, so what does he do? He changes
the rules, He rigs the game. And so my only

(01:18:25):
point is this, and why I you know, I ordered
a governor's Redishing Advisory Commission in Maryland, where we now
have a bipartisan group led by one of our senators,
Senator angel Alsobrooks, who's now leading a bipartisan group to
actually go talk to people, to listen to people, and
then decide whether or not Maryland has fair maps. Because

(01:18:46):
I am just I am very clear on this, and
I'm hard set on it that if this country is
going to go and if parts of this country are
going to go through a mid decade process to determine
whether or not they have fair maps, then so will.

Speaker 2 (01:19:01):
The state of Maryland.

Speaker 4 (01:19:03):
And and Donald Trump is not going to choose what
our democracy looks like. The people of Maryland will choose
what our democracy looks like. And so our commission now
is in place. They're already doing wonderful work.

Speaker 2 (01:19:22):
They're going to come back with their recommendations.

Speaker 4 (01:19:25):
But while we all can talk, you know, while we
all can talk about a fair map process, I just
believe deeply that democracy cannot be a spectator sport. Democracy
cannot be something where certain states are deciding and determining
whether or not they have fair maps that we need
to go through our process. It needs to be a
process that involves real people and revolves our input. And

(01:19:49):
I'm excited for the fact that the state of Maryland,
just like these other states, are going to move.

Speaker 2 (01:19:54):
I will make sure.

Speaker 4 (01:19:55):
That come next November, Maryland is voting with fair maps
and we will have a representative democracy that actually reflects
the wills and the hopes and the ambitions of the
people of my state.

Speaker 5 (01:20:09):
Best one, Dan from Austin asks, what's your pitch to
get people to move from Texas to Maryland?

Speaker 2 (01:20:18):
And do you believe in your freedoms?

Speaker 3 (01:20:20):
Do you?

Speaker 2 (01:20:20):
Uh now listen, I mean I'm actually listening. I really
believe that. Let's start with the live music.

Speaker 1 (01:20:29):
They're gonna want to know if you have good live music.

Speaker 4 (01:20:31):
We we actually have one of the best live music
scenes inside the entire inside the entire country. And that's
real talk Maryland. In fact, Baltimore is actually Baltimore. The
Baltimore Reason has actually been ranked as one of the
top live music scenes inside the country. But uh, and
I know Austin y'all are up there too, like Baltimore
is great. But I will say this, I am in
addition to the fact that in addition to the fact

(01:20:54):
that you know they.

Speaker 2 (01:20:54):
Call Maryland American miniature for a reason, and.

Speaker 4 (01:20:59):
It's because I don't care what you tell me you
want to do. Tell me what you want to do.
Do you want to go hike mountains? Do you want
to go to beaches? Do you want to go to ballgames?
Do you want to go see farmland? Tell me what
you want to do, and I can tell you how
to have a world class experience in Maryland within two hours.

(01:21:23):
There's no place in the country like that. And the
other thing that I would tell you why Maryland is
so special, in Maryland is so unique. I really think
Maryland is the best place in the world to change
the world. I really think Maryland is a place where
we watch entrepreneurial endeavors grow and thrive. I believe Maryland

(01:21:44):
is a place where we actually respect people's freedoms and
we respect people's histories. That Maryland is a place that
we actually make sure that people have a chance to
learn and grow and be an inclusive society. That when Maryland,
when we were watching a larger debate that was taking

(01:22:04):
place around the country about things like reproductive health and
reproductive rights, that in Maryland, what do we do we
actually made reproductive health part of Maryland's constitution, so that
no matter what the Supreme Court says in Maryland, we
will protect that that when we watch places around the
country that we're banning histories and banning books and talking

(01:22:27):
about what parts of history we were going to remember
and what parts of history we were going to reflect, well,
what did we do in the state of Maryland. I
very proudly signed legislation banning the banning of books.

Speaker 2 (01:22:38):
You cannot ban books in my state. That we're talking about,
we're talking about a.

Speaker 4 (01:22:48):
State right now that is beautiful and diverse and growing
with one of the fastest job growth rates inside the
entire country, with a state that is truly the epicenter
of life sciences in it and aerospace and defense. That
Maryland is the home of true national gems Likeanists, the

(01:23:13):
NIH and military installations like Fort Meade, one of the
largest military and veteran communities inside this entire country. That
we have some of the best academic and some of
the best academic measures inside the entire country, some of
the best public schools inside of America. That we are
a place that invests inside of our future. And so

(01:23:34):
I believe deeply and it's not just because I am biased.
There's a reason that we are watching business after business
come and choose Maryland because this is a chance for
them to be able to grow and thrive, and frankly,
for their employee base to know that you're not just
going to have one of the best pipelines for higher

(01:23:55):
education in K twelve employees, but also a place where
you're employees. These visions and hopes for their future can
actually be realized and their freedoms are going to be protected.

Speaker 1 (01:24:05):
Let the record show he didn't mention Old Bay and
Old Bay, Obay crack cakes Baltimore Orioles Baltimore, Raven you
do not be Is there anything you wouldn't put Old
Bay on?

Speaker 2 (01:24:17):
Nothing?

Speaker 4 (01:24:18):
Old Bay I think is actually the greatest spice because
you can Ol Bay is breakfast, lunch, dinner, and dessert.

Speaker 1 (01:24:26):
Is true.

Speaker 4 (01:24:27):
I had ol Bay ice cream. I'm telling you, it'll
change your life. It'll change your life. That's why you
moved to Maryland.

Speaker 1 (01:24:33):
Thank you, Covin, thanks us, thank you everybody. Well as
you could see, I'll tell you this the impression I
got from Wes Moore and what when people have asked me, well,
what do you think I'm like, you know, I know
that there's going to be this.

Speaker 2 (01:24:55):
He's going to always get.

Speaker 1 (01:24:56):
Compared to Barack Obama, right, if he wants to be
the next black president, he's going to get compared to
Barack Obama. But I think if you just listen to
Wes Moore, right, and you listen to Barack Obama, and
you listen to Bill Clinton, you realize Wes Moore in
some ways has a lot more. He comes across to
me more like Bill Clinton, And I think that I'll

(01:25:20):
tell you something that I appreciate now more understanding and
listening to him talk. You know, he went to military school,
and his story his mom's son in military school was
worried he was he was hanging out with the wrong
crowd and he was going to go down a bad road.
And Wes Moore has written very eloquently about this when
he talked when he wrote this book about the other

(01:25:41):
Wes Moore, somebody who shares his name, who ended up
in I grew up in Baltimore and let's just say
took the wrong turns in life. He went to military
school then and listened in the military. I think he's
a you know, I always I like to there's people
that are small sea conservatives and big C conservatives. Capital
conservative to me is more ideological. Small sea conservative is

(01:26:03):
more means you might be more of an incrementalist. You're
more you know, you may be liberal, but you're more
of an incrementalist in how you want to move things along,
that you've got to bring people along in order to
get stuff done. Like I've I always consider myself a
small sea conservative in that I believe if you're gonna
if you're gonna have make law for three hundred and

(01:26:24):
fifty million people, you got to do it baby steps.
You know, you got to do it incrementally because you
want to bring as many people along as possible. Not
everybody agrees with that, and I understand that, but there
I that's the impression I got from him, which is
what I would have what Bill Clinton was.

Speaker 2 (01:26:41):
And then growing up in.

Speaker 1 (01:26:42):
Rural Arkansas, that you know where you grew up, how
you grew up, I think, does it inform what kind
of activist politician you're going to be. And that's that's
why I got a sense more that than that. And
I know that many plenty of people are going to
immediately want to compare more in Obama, and I just

(01:27:04):
think that that in some ways, I think the better
comparison and war might be to Bill Clinton, not on
the personal stuff, but more on sort of I think
how he views politics, how he views working in this
political system.

Speaker 2 (01:27:19):
All right, let me take a few questions.

Speaker 1 (01:27:21):
Ask Chuck. This one comes from Kennel and he says, Hey,
they're a fan of the pod.

Speaker 2 (01:27:28):
Thanks for all you do.

Speaker 1 (01:27:29):
I was in high school when the fairness doctrine was
repealed and watched conservative talk radio ship the conversation from
policy to culture wars. As a liberal, I've always felt
the left was caught flat foot and it has been
playing catchup ever since. You think there's still hope for
both sides to set aside the culture clash and focus
on real common ground legislation. Are we just too far
apart in the kind of government each side wants? So?
I think our divide is more cultural than it is policy, right.

(01:27:53):
I think our divide on how we live our lives
is actually that's what animates this conversation, what you're describing
about talk radio. As you just said correctly, it went
on culture where I think Democrats believe that they could
still win. You know, the three point policy proposal plan

(01:28:13):
you want healthcare, where we're going to here's how we're
going to provide healthcare versus the Republicans going should the
government be providing healthcare?

Speaker 6 (01:28:20):
Right?

Speaker 1 (01:28:20):
I think that, you know, And that may be where
sometimes it feels like the two parties talk past each other.
I also happen to believe that that one of the
reasons why we're so divided on culture now is because
we don't have the Cold War to keep us united.

(01:28:42):
I think the Cold War in some ways sort of
was served as a moderation, moderating force both in the
left and the right. You know, and you've probably heard
me say this before if you've been a fan of
the pod that you know. I if you look at
sort of if you're looking for a line of demarcation,
where did we go from sort of shared reality to

(01:29:05):
alternative realities? It's the splintering. Actually started to start it
in after the fall of the Berlin Wall. And you know,
the first time we saw this show up in the
Republican Party was Pat Buchanan's primary challenge to George H. W.
Bush in ninety two. And go look at the Buchanan platform.
It's the Trump platform, Right, Buchanan was Trump before Trump,

(01:29:27):
and you know, he was railing against these trade deals
and he was the first sort of mainstream conservative to
do that in a way that got traction. Now, of course,
this is now essentially part of the rank and file
belief system of many of many mega Republicans. He was
very skeptical of the immigration policies, the more, very critical

(01:29:50):
of the Reagan amnesty of eighty six, with the Mazoli.

Speaker 2 (01:29:55):
Deal and so, and.

Speaker 1 (01:29:57):
Of course he was a skeptic of intervention, including he
was he was not the most pro Israel guy back then,
let alone now.

Speaker 2 (01:30:06):
And so.

Speaker 1 (01:30:10):
It does feel as if the Cold War sort of
had both parties. You know, they only disagreed on how
to deal with the Soviets, not whether we should, right,
whether we should confront them exactly, like, how do you
confront them? Was the debate, not necessarily whether you should
confront them. And so I think it sort of was
a moderating force on our culture, right, Our culture was
almost united on being more focused on defeating communism in

(01:30:34):
the Soviet threat rather than and then once that went away,
we all just looked inward and looked for all of
our own cultural divides. So that's been my thesis of
why it happened.

Speaker 2 (01:30:47):
But you know.

Speaker 1 (01:30:51):
It, I am one of those who believes it's an
existential crisis that will sort of bring us back. And
it may be AI right, or it may be this
transition that we're going through on the economy that will
sort of have us, you know, until we sort of
re remodel this economy for the twenty first century. You
know that maybe we will sort of that. The election

(01:31:13):
of Trump twenty four was actually voters also signaling, hey,
let's let's pause the culture wars for and just focus
on this, on this current economic system and what can
we do to improve it and fix it. In that sense,
I actually do think that could be something that would
weirdly because it would it would downgrade culture a bit.

(01:31:34):
And you know, one of the things we've learned, when
when the economy is humming, then we fight about culture.
When the economy is not humming, we fight about the economy,
and the economy for the most part, right we've had
two or three down periods, but for the most part
of the last thirty years, it's been an incredible economy.

Speaker 2 (01:31:51):
Right over a thirty year period with.

Speaker 1 (01:31:53):
Like these you know, bad two or three year periods, right,
the Great Recession COVID ninety nine to two thousand, But
they were sort of like these little spikes, right. And
I think that's why so many of our divides in
our presidential elections from say ninety two to twenty twenty,

(01:32:16):
twenty twenty were more cultural than they divided, more by
culture than they were on the economy. That I don't
think is going to be these. I think we are
going to have economy elections now for the next decade
until we sort of get our sea legs on what
the on this new economy. Like I said, I'll go back,
and I think the fear of AI displacement is going

(01:32:40):
to be the singular issue that both parties have to
tackle come twenty twenty eight. Next question comes from matthew
S Springfield organ Hey, which may be the Springfield the
model for the Springfield from The Simpsons, It says Chuck
given Democrats twenty twenty five performance redistarting battles in early
twenty twenty six polling, which five members of Congress do

(01:33:01):
you think are most likely to announce retirement soon? And
why new maps trump back challengers et cetera. Have long
appreciate the calm, thoughtful analysis you bring and how you
avoid partisan noise in favor of context. I also love
the alternative alternative histories. Any interest in turning one into
a for all mankind style book? Huh So, which scenario
would you choose to write? Go bills Matthews. Oh, that's

(01:33:23):
interesting on that front. I don't know which ones i'd
make a book. I'd be a little concerned about it
and putting it in book form. I know that sounds odd,
but you know, it's like I don't want it to
seem so definitive and in this world of misinformation and disinformation,

(01:33:45):
so I'm a little sensitive to that. But I would
say that, you know what, the one that.

Speaker 2 (01:33:55):
The one that I.

Speaker 1 (01:33:55):
Think about the most is if Gore becomes president in
ninety eight, for one reason or another, either Clinton resigns
from office, which was the most likely scenario, and how
that would have massively shifted things that would have had
a huge you know, there's that there has been a
book written about Hillary Clinton winning the presidency, which was

(01:34:17):
an alternative history that was done, and the year I
believe she would have won the only year that I
think she could have won the presidency was four. I
think Bush for Bush v Clinton and four is what
you would have had. That's a scenario I think that
was definitely worth uh worth exploring on that front. But

(01:34:38):
that would those would be the two that that quickly
stand out. As for retirements I gave in the last episode,
I was talking about this because I do think a
handful of retirements are coming. I think when you look
at and we've already seen, I would say this the
potential retirement we've already seen. Some committee chairs already leave.
The chair of the Homeland Security Committee is Mark he

(01:35:00):
decided to resign. James Comer's thinking about running for is
going to run for governor of Kentucky in twenty seven.
If you told me he decides not to seek reelection
or in twenty six, that wouldn't shock me. I think
with there's a Missouri remap, I would keep an eye

(01:35:22):
out on both Jason Smith and Sam Graves and Missouri
Smith and ways and Means. He's kind of gotten what
he's gotten. And once you've done ways and means, you
don't want to be the ranking on ways and means.
So the places I would start are always committee chairs
or people that are on the verge.

Speaker 2 (01:35:38):
Of becoming.

Speaker 1 (01:35:43):
Of becoming a committee chair and now thinking, oh, the
Republicans aren't going to win, aren't going to win the House. So,
like I said, I got Mike Turner there, I would
keep an eye out and a couple you know, I'm
still waiting on a couple more Texas shoes to drop
because they don't like the new lines. I think it's
possible you'll see one out of Illinois decide to retire

(01:36:06):
rather than face an uphill re election battle, because again,
do you want to raise and spend ten to twenty
million dollars for a House seat that even if you win,
as Marjorie Taylor Green argued, you would end up in
the minority. And you know, in her case here she
was dealing with incoming from Trump and then would be
expected to defend Trump, which you want to do that.

(01:36:27):
But look, I look at a darryl Isa does. He
ended up deciding to retire rather than to try to
run in California. So it's basically any member that's been
in the House Republican Conference for you know, that got
elected before twenty sixteen, I'd put them on my retirement list.
That's why Mike Turner's on that list. And anybody who

(01:36:52):
thought they were in line for a committee post and
thinks now that there's going to be a committee chair.
So those are the Those are basically the places. I
think the California Republicans a handful of Illinois Republicans because
you're going to have that remap remap there. I keep
an eye on those Missouri ones because of that remap.
You know, is it worth looking at more? You know,

(01:37:16):
running in a new district and you decide you don't
want to be in the minority, And that's how suddenly
people start racing for the exits. It's just that they
don't feel like putting in the slog and the effort
into something that they're not really that animated about.

Speaker 2 (01:37:35):
I don't think I gave.

Speaker 1 (01:37:36):
You five, Matthew, but I hope I gave you some.
I gave you I give you chunks of places to look.
But I definitely put Mike Turner in the top tier
of that. I put those Missouri guys in there, a
couple of those California guys as well. All right, next
question comes from Evan Hey Chuck. Much has been made

(01:37:57):
by Democrats falling behind in the Midwest Postma. But it
seems Obama's reelection is when d started to fail in
the region. He lost eight percent of support in the
Midwest compared to eight while other regions stayed the same.

Speaker 2 (01:38:07):
Thoughts.

Speaker 1 (01:38:07):
Yeah, no, In fact, you know, Obama's job rating was
upside down in Iowa at the start of twenty twelve.
Part of that was Republican you know, the Republican caucus
campaign was you know, you know, there was nothing. There
was twelve or thirteen different Republicans running anti Obama messages,
and that would take a toll.

Speaker 2 (01:38:30):
Did oh with Wisconsin?

Speaker 1 (01:38:31):
Did it with Michigan where you had very competitive Republican
presidential primaries, particularly in the ones where you had him
on that front. And what was interesting was if you recall,
you know, Obama's Midwest campaign strategy was all negative. He
portrayed Romney as a guy who outsourced jobs to China.

(01:38:54):
So when you think about the message that Obama used
to survive in the Midwest, he still ended up caring
Ohio and Iowa and Wisconsin and Michigan and Pennsylvania, Minnesota.

Speaker 2 (01:39:04):
But they were You're absolutely right, they.

Speaker 1 (01:39:06):
Were all by lower margins and Romney was sort of
had a puncher's chance in those places. But where you know,
at the time, I remember they were using the Big
ten network actually is where they were running these you know,
Mitt Romney sent these jobs to China. Mitt Romney to China.
And it was always sort of voters in Wisconsin or
voters and you know Iowa voter and Iowa a Michigan

(01:39:27):
voter saying I can't believe Met Romney sent these jobs
to China. The reason I bring it up is because
essentially it was the same message Trump ran on against
Clinton in sixteen in those states, and he ended up
carrying them all right, carrying Iowa, carrying Ohio, carrying Michigan,
carrying Wisconsin, carrying Pennsylvania. So I think in hindsight, when

(01:39:48):
you look at the campaign Obama had to run to
hold on to those states, which was hard negative painting
Romney as a corporate ceo more worried about profits than
the American worker. Well, what the hell was the entire
campaign against Hillary Clinton, both by Bernie Sanders and by
Donald Trump essentially portraying Hillary Clinton as the public servant

(01:40:12):
who was supportive of helping them aromnees of the world
get their profits from wherever was possible, wherever we had workers.

Speaker 2 (01:40:18):
So I think that was a.

Speaker 1 (01:40:22):
If you're looking for the this goes back to why
I think that Obama made such a critical error in.

Speaker 2 (01:40:29):
Endorsing Hillary.

Speaker 1 (01:40:31):
I don't think that's where the party was, and I
don't think that's where voters were. It's easy to say
that now. It's easy to see that now, But as
you point out, there was plenty of yellow flags to
be looked at if you were looking for yellow flags
about the Democratic Parties.

Speaker 2 (01:40:47):
Hold on the Midwest.

Speaker 1 (01:40:50):
David s asks, Hey, Chuck, are we finally going to
get a generational change in twenty twenty eight?

Speaker 2 (01:40:56):
Some of us hoping for a gen X president? Ever?

Speaker 1 (01:40:59):
Right, and with that mean political change we've been craving
for so long. As you've noted, Americans have voted for
change consistently, but our politics have been seemingly stuck in
a time warp. With the exception of Barack Obama, every
president we've had since nineteen ninety two was born in
the nineteen forties. It's amazing, isn't it just amazing? Three
of those GWB, Clinton and Trump were all born in
the same summer of nineteen forty six. Yeah, turns out

(01:41:22):
it was so I always go back nine months. The
fall was a breeding season, right for presidents. Apparently, the
fall of forty five. I guess people were so excited
about the end of World War two they said, let's
procreate and maybe we'll make some presidents. As near as
I could tell, that's totally unprecedented American history. You're right,
it is the craziest thing that Bill Clinton and Donald Trump.

(01:41:42):
Donald Trump just won his second term in twenty twenty four.
Bill Clinton won his second term in nineteen ninety six. Okay,
twenty eight years apart, and they were born two months apart,
both in the year of nineteen forty six. These freckin
baby boomers just won't go away. Well they You don't

(01:42:03):
have to wind me up too much to get me
harping on this, but are you know I could make
a case that, you know, half of our problems fiscally
are because we've over catered to the baby boomers. Everything
has been about the baby boomers. The baby boomers got
their housing, you know, the mortgage, the infamous mortgage credit,
the tax credit that you get that that has spread
a home ownership all around right, And you know, in

(01:42:25):
some ways it was in service to the baby boomers,
you know, the expansion of all the it's always everything.
It feels as if it's always been in service to
the Baby boomers. As a gen xer who is about
twelve years away from his first Social Security check, I
think I'm going to be the first generation of Social
Security recipients that we'll see an automatic cut. I absolutely

(01:42:48):
believe it. And our generation is too small to be
politically angry enough to force politicians to not do it
versus the Boomers have been such a large generation that
they've and I actually think millennials are going to be
the next boomer generation, meaning once millennials start electing presidents,

(01:43:08):
and we're likely to have a millennial president next. I mean,
you know, if Wes Moore is gen X, but I
believe both Shapiro and uh and U Basher are millennial.
But let me double check that.

Speaker 4 (01:43:28):
No.

Speaker 1 (01:43:28):
Andy Basher is seventy seven, so he would be gen
X are born in seventy seven. Look, I'm just doing
this in real time for you. Josh Shapiro, he's almost
my age, he's a year younger. He's born in seventy three.
So we gen xers. We got a shot with Shapiro
more Rubio. On the Republican side of things, I think

(01:43:50):
Rand Paul would be gen X. Let's see here, Ran Paul. No,
Rand Paul's a boomer man. Ram Paul sixty two born
in sixty three. Paul's a boomer I was wrong on that.
So Rubio is our best shot at gen X Republican
president at this point, and on the Democratic side looks
like Wes Moore. I think he was seventy eight, Andybusheer
seventy seven, born in seventy seven, and Shapiro born in

(01:44:14):
seventy three. That's likely our best shot at that. Now
it makes me think Gavin Newsom was born in sixty seven,
so he's very early gen X, but he would also
be gen X. But if we get a millennial and
the possibility of a millennial president, particularly if it's JD
Vance Pete Pootage, both of them would be AOC. So

(01:44:41):
there's one shot at a boomer president, and that's Rand Paul.
I don't think Rand Paul's going to become president, but
I ain't going to rule anything out on that front.
I'm just double checking the Ted kruz Berth here Ted
Cruse born in seventy So if gen X doesn't get
a president in twenty eight, they're never getting a president.
How's that for a prediction on that front? But I

(01:45:05):
am it's possible. I think the millennials, once they get
their first president, we could see a boomer like run, right,
the boomers Clinton Bush. By the way, even Obama, technically
born in sixty one, is a boomer president. If we
never get a gen X I'm going to make a
movement for us to claim Obama because here's my argument

(01:45:26):
of why, that he grew up more like my childhood.
He's basically halfway between. I was born in seventy two,
Obama sixty one. My mother was born in forty seven.
Sorry mom, but you're part of the boomer generation there, right,
So Obama's kind of in the middle. But my argument
is Obama's childhood probably was a bit more color TV
than black and white TV. Right, My childhood was a

(01:45:47):
bit more color TV than black and white. And then
we get cable. My mother is more black and white TV. Right,
She's an adult really when color TV comes along.

Speaker 2 (01:45:56):
So I've always so.

Speaker 1 (01:45:57):
I look at it like the Boomers were black and
white television. Gen X was sort of color television in
the early stages a cable. Millennials were the first ones
that have Internet access in the home, right. I mean,
my dad helped them set up some weird dow Jones
thing in eighty six on our Apple two c and
we had a and we plugged it into the phone

(01:46:19):
and we kind of made it work. But I'm not
going to call it internet access. I never really had
an Internet access until I was in college in the nineties.

Speaker 2 (01:46:29):
So if you're wondering how I sort.

Speaker 1 (01:46:31):
Of divvy things up, that's sort of how I looked
at So I do think once millennials get the presidency,
they may have as long of a run as the
boomers had. Literally ninety two, they've had a Boomer president,
and me, shoot, you could make a case, right we
went backwards with Joe Biden. He's technically the silent generation,
but let's put him. He's forty one. We have not

(01:46:56):
had a president born after nineteen sixty one yet. Got
to think our next president is going to be born
after nineteen sixty one. All right, final question for this
one comes from Colonel Stephen Mitchell, usr Force retired.

Speaker 2 (01:47:12):
He said, I'm really.

Speaker 1 (01:47:12):
Enjoying your podcast and bind myself learning a great deal
about politics from you.

Speaker 2 (01:47:15):
Thank you appreciate that.

Speaker 1 (01:47:16):
It appears to me that third party candidates, how New
York City marilect Zoon Mom Donnie, a self proclaimed democratic socialist, Yes,
have learned how to become either a dino or a
rhino and hijack one of the parties. I'm curious if
you agree, and what is your thoughts about this political strategy.

Speaker 2 (01:47:30):
Well, I think.

Speaker 1 (01:47:30):
That that's what you've seen more third part You know,
when I've had conversations with people that have pondered independent candidacies,
I am now you know. Take Michael Bloomberg. Michael Bloomberg
wanted to run as an independent for a long time.
He made the calculation that you couldn't win the presidency
as an independent. You have to use one of the
two major parties. So he decided to run as a Democrat.

(01:47:51):
It didn't work, and one could argue that Elizabeth Warren
essentially ended Michael Bloomberg's candidacy because she was able to
paint him as a dino, right a Democratic name only.
That's the ballot access issue. Has he essentially convinced those

(01:48:11):
that are, you know, on the progressive left or the
conservative right, maybe you're you want to you're a member
of the Constitution Party, the Libertarian Party, the Forward Party,
the Green Party. You know why Bernie Sanders said, you know,
he could have run as an independent instead. Now I
was better off running. Donald Trump made this decision, right.
He flirted with the Reform Party back in two thousand,

(01:48:33):
flirted with an independent run and realized that it's easier
to run by And it turns out that the two
parties were weak, and they're both weak. I sort of
I used to joke that in twenty sixteen, you had
two dead carcasses on the side of the political road,
a dead donkey and a dead elephant, and Bernie Sanders
and Donald Trump sort of reanimated and reanimated the donkey

(01:48:57):
and the elephant, but a zombie version of both, right,
and gave them a little bit.

Speaker 2 (01:49:01):
Of new life.

Speaker 1 (01:49:02):
But they were kind of like, it looked like the donkey,
it looked like the elephant.

Speaker 2 (01:49:08):
But was it right?

Speaker 1 (01:49:10):
And if you squint hard, it now it looks more mainstream. Now,
it looks like these animals have been alive for a
while now. But I kind of think there's still kind
of zombie versions of themselves, and I think that that's
why the best comparison of Mam Donnie is to Trump.
And I also think Trump has viewed those that have
called Mom Donnie that hey, Mom Donnie's just left wing Trump.

(01:49:34):
Trump takes out his compliment, which is also I think
help us explain that LoveFest as well. But I think
they've realized that it's it's easier to get elected if
you've got the if you're you know, if you've got
some unique views, you're better off running inside an established
brand like the Democratic Party of the Republican Party, because

(01:49:57):
it kind of launders your extremism what would be viewed
as extremism if you're running from the outside, But if
you run within the party, then there the extreme label
is harder to pin to somebody. So I think that's
another reason, Colonel Mitchell, why this is a more appealing
direction for sort of a somebody who might have been

(01:50:21):
more comfortable in a third party ends up becoming essentially
a Dino, either a left wing Dino or a right
wing Rhino right a different version of Dyno and Rhino,
as sometimes the parties.

Speaker 2 (01:50:34):
Call it all right.

Speaker 1 (01:50:35):
With that, enjoy the rest of your holiday weekend. And
by the way, if you're having trouble dealing with politics
in your family in the moment, let me encourage you
of how to shift the conversation but still have an
interesting political conversation that might actually inform something. As you're
having an argument about Trump or about AOC or about

(01:50:56):
Bernie or about Gavenusom and any of those things, ask
them what they think, AI, and that's off they think
of the tech companies. I have a feeling it's a
way to find more agreement in your Thanksgiving UH scrums
post Thanksgiving scrums, and it might it might remind everybody
in that room that everybody kind of has the same concerns.

(01:51:19):
You just may have different solutions on how to deal
with those concerns. Just sort of a if you're if
you're looking for ideas, and if you if you got
to keep a political conversation going but you don't want
it to be as divisive, try AI in the tech companies.

Speaker 2 (01:51:35):
At least you could focus everybody's venom on them.

Speaker 1 (01:51:39):
So with that, enjoy the rest of your weekend and
I'll see on Monday

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Full Episode - Which Democratic Presidential Hopeful Has The Best Shot In 2028? + How Democrats Can Push Back Against Trump w/ Governor Wes Moore

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Full Episode - Which Democratic Presidential Hopeful Has The Best Shot In 2028? + How Democrats Can Push Back Against Trump w/ Governor Wes Moore