September 14, 2026 • 64 mins
Death investigator Joseph Scott Morgan has spent 40 years in living rooms telling families their child is dead — and he's here to warn David Rutherford that death has become entertainment.
Twenty-five years after 9/11 unified a country, the Charlie Kirk assassination and the Lindsay Clancy trial are dividing one. Joe explains why the same public that once vomited at terrorist execution videos now scrolls past them, why "closure" is a lie he refuses to say to grieving families, and the disturbing pattern he's seeing in the murder cases crossing his desk.
David breaks down what Lt. Col. Dave Grossman's "killology" research found about desensitization, why he believes the men online begging for a civil war have never smelled what they're asking for, and how the hate he carried into Afghanistan almost killed him — and what actually saved him.
Joseph Scott Morgan is a veteran death investigator, Distinguished Scholar of Applied Forensics at Jacksonville State University, host of the Body Bags podcast, a regular forensic analyst for Nancy Grace, and author of the memoir Blood Beneath My Feet. He is one of the most-cited forensic voices on the Charlie Kirk case.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I would have people, you know, say things to me
about death and say things to me about particular cases.
And I like to engage with them from a scientific standpoint.
But when it's almost like a feeding frenzy and then
the next thing is we're looking to satisfy the next
thing that's going to come along, that death's not enough
(00:22):
for you. What do you got on the menu next?
It's like people are like a disgusting buffet. Death has
become entertainment. And it's really sad, I think, that we
judge the Romans so harshly about gladiatorial games and things
(00:43):
that went on. We're no better. We're no better. As
a matter of fact, I think that there's such a menu.
Do you remember all those years ago, there were all
those videos, particularly in the wake of 9-11, where some
group of terrorists would capture somebody and they would kill them.
You know, they'd kill them on video. And then, of course,
(01:07):
that would be sent all the way around the world.
And there was, back when that was happening, people would,
it would almost be vomit-inducing. You know, people would be
so taken aback by it. It's nothing nowadays. You know,
people are so numb to it.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Welcome back to the show, everybody. Today is the 25th
anniversary of 9-11. And it's a day that has a
significant impact, has had a significant impact on my life
in ways I never dreamed at the time.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
I was a young Navy SEAL. The whole world shifted.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
And then out of this day, we received 22 years
of the global war on terror. In that time, over
100 SEALs have died in combat operations. And then also
we've lost over 100 SEALs to suicide since that time
as well, too. The experience impacted me in many different
(02:06):
ways with operator syndrome, as well as just trying to
manage what that experience was like in a way where
I knew it was going to stay with me for
my whole life. But the one thing about it that
really always kind of pushes through all of the the
negativity of it was how America reacted in the aftermath
(02:26):
of that tragic day and that profound loss of life.
I remember being in San Diego and every house had
American street. People were nice to each other. They, they,
they engaged with each other in a very meaningful way.
They were kind to one another. They were sympathetic. They
were empathetic for each other. And that was really a
(02:47):
special time for me. And, although I wasn't looking at
it the way I look at life nowadays at 54,
I certainly was able to recognize the uniqueness of how
the human spirit was being influenced at such an extreme
level with empathy and the consideration of the impact of
(03:08):
death had on us and as the country itself. Unfortunately,
time alters all things. And over the last several years,
we once again have begun to bear the burden of tragedy,
constant tragedy. And I think now with where we're at
(03:29):
with the internet and social media, those tragedies aren't unifying
us in any way, shape, or form. It's actually generating division.
Just look at the Charlie Kirk case, and yesterday was
the anniversary of that, and If you were paying attention
on X, you'd see some people that it was a
conspiracy and some people it wasn't and the vitriol of
(03:52):
going at each other. You see in the Clancy case
up in Boston and where you have large swaths of
single women or married women who believe she's innocent of
this profound tragedy of killing her three children and then
the other side, people attacking her for being evil or
demonic or whatever it is. And so one of the
(04:16):
person that I think has been at the forefront of
this type of an, of the analysis, the, the analysis
that we, we, we think is going to, uh, enhance
our opinions of this in a forensic capacity. Cause he's
one of the greatest, uh, forensics guys in the entire country.
And he's been involved in this for 40 years.
Speaker 3 (04:37):
Um, Dr. Joseph Scott Morgan.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
And if you recently saw him, he did an amazing
episode with Jillian Dory and Baron Coleman about the Charlie
Kirk case. He covers constantly with Nancy Grace. He's on
three times a week with her. He's covering the Clancy case.
This is the guy you go to that really will
help you deconstruct and understand it from a forensic capacity,
(05:03):
from the science. What I love about this man is
that there's another– There's another level of understanding that he
brings to the table. And that's an understanding of the
impact of death and what it has on the people
that are affiliated with it. He has more than once
had to inform family members of a loved one's death.
(05:26):
More than once he's had to testify. More than once
he's had to evaluate death in the most grotesque ways imaginable.
But yet he kept coming back and kept doing it.
So when we had him on a few months ago,
we were able to have this really beautiful discussion, not
(05:46):
so much about forensics, but about the impact of death.
And so on this solemn Memorial Day of 9-11, in
conjunction with all of the other challenging circumstances that people
are being forced to evaluate within themselves, which side of
death do I stand on and why? I thought, who
(06:08):
better to bring on to have a discussion of maybe
how we can look at it a little differently or
how we can understand it in a way that doesn't
pit us against each other. So without further ado, Joe,
welcome back to the show.
Speaker 4 (06:22):
Thanks, brother. Good to be with you, Brett.
Speaker 3 (06:24):
Thank you, sir.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
I watched the episode with you and Julian and Baron Coleman,
and for me, it represented— chat a little bit before
we hopped on about it like it represented this profound
moment i thought and all of the the vitriol the
insidiousness that seems to just coming out and i think
(06:49):
whether whatever side or sides you're on or wherever you're
on there's a natural propensity to be hyper emotional about
in particular a figure like like charlie was or even
now you know i've seen the disgusting nature of how
people are interacting with Mondani or, you know, not wanting
him to show it. Like you just see this vitriol
(07:11):
is just seems to be gathering steam, whether it's in
Gaza or it's.
Speaker 3 (07:16):
In Ukraine or wherever it is.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
I wanted to get your opinion on why you think
in the current state that we're in as a country that,
just the world because of how connected we are. Why
do you think this level of vitriol or an inability
to see the other persons or at least acknowledge the
other persons, the impact of this death on them?
Speaker 3 (07:42):
Why are we seeing this take place right now?
Speaker 1 (07:46):
For me, just coming from the perspective of death investigation,
most folks out there don't understand the impact of death
from the perspective of it can show up at your
doorstep at any point in time. I can't tell you
how many living rooms I've sat in over the years
(08:08):
where I've got somebody weeping, tearing their clothes and pulling
their hair out, literally, completely decompensating over the fact that
their child has died or that their spouse has died.
And it's that reality that kind of punches you in
the face. When you get into this world that is
(08:30):
so dictated by this, it's very, very easy, I think,
to pick sides. But when you're physically there and you
smell that sickly sweet smell of blood and you see
(08:54):
the trauma, that has occurred. All of that, you know, it, it,
that pales in comparison to whatever side you might be on.
Death is, and it's kind of rote to say this,
but death is a great equalizer, you know, in all
of this. And I've borne witness to it for a long,
long time. And as you, as you stated, and, you know,
(09:18):
and I've got the gray hair to prove it, you know,
and it's, it's, There's so many times, you know, over
the years, and it's not just what's going on right now.
I would have people, you know, say things to me
about death and say things to me about particular cases.
And I like to engage with them from a scientific standpoint.
(09:39):
But when it's almost like a feeding frenzy and then
the next thing is we're looking to satisfy the next
thing that's going to come along, that death's not enough
for you. What do you got on the menu next?
It's like people are like a disgusting buffet.
Speaker 4 (10:00):
Many times.
Speaker 1 (10:01):
And I see that happen over and over and over again.
They'll beat their chest and throw out these platitudes about,
you know, how much they care about the family or
how much they care about this and all that. But then,
you know, okay, so what's, What's on the channel next?
What is it that I can feed this desire with?
And now we've gotten to the point where we're so
(10:23):
numb to death. I was reflecting not too long ago
about when I wrote my memoir many years ago, I
talked about the process of families taking care of bodies.
And if you'll just let me go down this road
just for a second. Please, please. And my granny had
(10:48):
actually told me this many years ago, and I conveyed
it in my memoir. She talked about how in the
old days that they would take the biggest door off
the hinges in the house, put it between two chairs,
and women in the family would take the loved one
(11:09):
that had passed away in that family, and they would
clean and dress the body. And the men would go
out and dig the hole. And they'd probably be, as
my grandpa used to say, pulling a cork along the way,
taking a sip, and they would be celebrating the life
of that individual. And there's a lot to be said
(11:32):
about the concept of an Irish wake, where people can
laugh and grieve and scream and carry on. And no
one is really going to judge you. It's just part
of that process. Things are so hermetically sealed now in
the way we handle things, even death. You know, you
(11:53):
have some stranger come into your house and pick up
a body and they talk in deep, serious tones. And
they've got perfect lighting, you know, at the funeral home.
And they're, you know, showing a PowerPoint, you know, playing
music that they think that the dead person liked. And
then they're going to go on with their life. And
we don't have that period of time to really grieve
(12:14):
many times. That process has accelerated to the point now
where death has become entertainment. And it's really sad, I think,
that we judge the Romans so harshly about gladiatorial games
(12:35):
and things that went on. We're no better. We're no better.
As a matter of fact, I think that it's there's
such a menu. Do you remember, you know, all those
years ago, there were all those videos, particularly in the
wake of 9-11, where some group of terrorists would capture
somebody and they would kill them. They kill them on video.
(12:57):
And and then, of course, that would be sent all
the way around the world. And there was back when
that was happening, people would it would almost be vomit inducing.
You know, people would be so taken aback by it.
It's nothing nowadays.
Speaker 3 (13:13):
Nothing.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
You know, people are so numb to it. And until,
you know, those kind of icy fingers of death visit you,
you think that it's never going to happen to you.
And you're just going to kind of move on to
the next thing. And for me, that's the way I
see it. You know, I think about cases like JonBenet and,
(13:37):
you know, how that's been in the national conversation for
years and years.
Speaker 4 (13:41):
And yes, it's tragic.
Speaker 3 (13:43):
It's horrible.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
But, you know, I worked in New Orleans and Atlanta.
I had a lot of little girls that died and
they didn't make it through a 24 hour news cycle.
Speaker 3 (13:54):
It's just, I'm never even getting into it. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (13:56):
And so those, it just so happens she was chosen. Right.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
And, you know, what, what's the level of interest in, and,
you know, for those people moving along, you know, these,
These people don't, you know, they don't know this person
up in Massachusetts. They don't know them, but yet it's
a source of interest for them. And then dollars to donuts,
(14:20):
I bet you there'll be another one, and they will
move on to that one. It's almost like locusts, you know,
at this point. Yeah, so it gets interesting. And I
bear witness to it because, you know, I'm chief among sinners.
I'm in the media, right? And I try to bring
a balance relative to forensics and the analysis of it.
(14:40):
And that's why I felt the need, you know, when
I went on Julian's show with Barron, I wanted to
be a reasonable voice in the room, you know, to
talk about these things instead of screaming and pointing our
fingers at one another and carrying on. Because, you know,
you wind up in the same spot, you know, every
single time. And how do you make your way through it? Well,
(15:02):
the only way the only thing I have to add
to that conversation is, well, how do you properly process
a crime scene? How do you collect evidence? How do
you do the examination on the remains? Who does the
examination on the remains? What are their assessments? All those
sorts of things. And and that's a very, you know,
that's a very real thing that, you know, you can
(15:24):
bring to the conversation. But I don't necessarily know that
it's ever proven. that my little voice is ever going
to take the temperature down in the room, you know,
because I show up and talk about the science part
of it.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
I think what you did, sorry to cut you off.
I'm going to quell. Your humility is always one of
the most admirable things about you. But that one interview
was the thing that I think knocked this crescendo down
for moments, for a little bit of time, whatever it is.
And obviously you, yesterday it kind of inflamed again and
(15:59):
the anniversary of his death, but, but it did it
like punch through the vitriol a little bit and, and
gave it some, not sanity, but it gave it, it
gave it a proper context of rationalization, right? Where, where like,
it's like, oh, hey, well, let's, let's take a step
back and instead of projecting what we imagine the conspiracy
(16:23):
or what non-conspiracy or the conviction on one side or
the conspiracy on the other and let's just come back
and humanize this reality to a place where we can
you know what what take you know drop our our
our not guard but like it seems like this stuff
drives more of the offensive than the guard anymore and
you know, for that entertainment purpose. And it's almost like
(16:46):
people internally are entertained by their own comments they throw
into it as well, too.
Speaker 4 (16:52):
Yeah, they do.
Speaker 1 (16:53):
And, you know, we have these conversations about bots that
are out there and all these sorts of things. But,
you know, you see stuff that pops up. And I
don't know if I mentioned this to you.
Speaker 4 (17:07):
Previously. You know, I'm trying to think back.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
I've had people accusing me that, you know, it's like, obviously,
this is fed slop.
Speaker 4 (17:22):
That's the term they love to use now.
Speaker 3 (17:23):
You're an op. Joe's an op.
Speaker 4 (17:25):
Yeah, and that I work for the Mossad.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
And I keep telling people, you know, uh, I wish, uh, uh, yeah,
I've got, I've got a beach house in Tel Aviv
and I'm overlooking the Mediterranean and I'm getting a stipend.
Speaker 4 (17:38):
Every month, you know?
Speaker 1 (17:39):
And yeah, that's, uh, you know, no, I, I'm not,
you know, I'm just sitting here, you know, just trying
to analyze what I'm seeing before me based upon the
information that I have at the time and, you know, what's,
what's reasonable. But, you know, the problem is, is that
we no longer have, um, have reasonable conversations any longer.
And I know people, you know, go on and on
(18:01):
about this all the time, but in my world, and
you can't, it's, people have such a desire to take
science and readjust it to what their perception is. And
that's the beauty working in forensics is that now there's
many ways to interpret the findings, right? Defense will go
(18:25):
and hire their you know, they're defense experts if they're
going to trial. And of course, the state has their own.
And you can see a bit of forensic evidence and
there's a couple of different ways to look at it, right?
You can say, well, this is the what if, okay?
This is the potential that could have happened. But, you know,
to take it as gospel because, you know, somebody is,
(18:49):
you know, throwing as much oatmeal against the wall as
they can to see, you know, what's going to stick.
That's not part of the reality. The problem is, is
that that voice is much louder than any kind of
reasonable scientific voice. And then it gets traction, right? And
so it spreads like wildfire because it reinforces whatever it
is that they have in their brain that they're thinking
(19:10):
about at that particular time. I'm willing to explore as
many things as people want to explore, you know, whether it's,
you know, Charlie's death or the death of, you know,
of three kids at the hand of their mother who
admitted that she did it with elastic straps you know
(19:33):
i'll have that discussion with you and i'll talk about
the mechanism of it and we can talk about that
all day long but there's still that that bit of
humanity that is contained in all of that and people
forget about that and they lose sight of it i
think that's why you know Yeah, and I think about
the things that no one has borne witness to. You know,
(19:57):
the actual horror of the people that are rolling out
to the scene and what they have discovered and what
will always be in their memory. It's like I've got
a lot of friends that were Deployed with what's called DMORT.
People are not familiar with DMORT, but it's a federalized
(20:17):
organization that disaster mortuary operational response teams. And so the
nation is regionalized. And when 9-11 happened, I had a
bunch of my people that I worked with at the
ME's office that were spun up. you know, to go
(20:39):
to deploy to the Northeastern region to work, to work
ground zero. My friends were at ground zero and they
did multiple tours there in that, in that brief period
of time. I had one friend in particular that was
there and she, she came back and was never the same.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:04):
Because the volume of what she was bearing witness to and,
you know, people are not meant to see those sorts
of things. Well, people that prattle on and on on
the Internet, they don't have that sense about them relative
to the reality of what you're seeing before you, the
end of life and what happens in death with these remains, which,
(21:25):
by the way, we still have, I think, over in
excess of a thousand remains that have not been positively
identified from ground zero. 1,100.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
I just watched a video on that just this morning
about finding bone fragments on different building tops years after
and just the magnitude of what that took place and
how intense that was for people, the vastness of carnage
that it was, right?
Speaker 3 (21:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:56):
People can't appreciate that when those buildings collapsed. And went down,
you know, because people forget that there's a structure below ground.
You know, there's a subway station that's down there. And
so I always describe it to my students because I
talk about mass fatality investigations. And I talk about a
multi-tiered wedding cake kind of collapsing in on its side
(22:19):
over a three-foot deep hole. And so, you know, put
that in perspective. And then all of the debris, everything
that they're pulling out of there. that had to be
taken to a separate location. And then, you know, I,
I have friends from other offices and other places where
they're actually out there looking at this debris, if you
(22:40):
can imagine this, and they're having to pick out bits
that are there and you don't know where it's very disorienting.
And so that, that's one of the reasons that we
still have remains because some, some of the remains were
just so degraded, you know, by the, by the point
that they got there, there was nothing left to really test.
(23:02):
And so a lot of the IDs that we have
are what we refer to as presumptive IDs. We know
that they were supposed to be there. We know that
they did not come home. And now enough time has elapsed.
I say we, I didn't have anything to do with
my friends. Now that enough time has elapsed, we're going
to declare this person more than likely died there. And
(23:25):
so the families don't have you know, really anything to
hang their hats on.
Speaker 4 (23:29):
And, you know, at.
Speaker 1 (23:32):
The end of the day, whether it's 9-11 or whether,
you know, it's a case, you know, that doesn't get
the fanfare that 9-11 got, you're still talking about real
people that are gone and will never walk back across
(23:53):
the the threshold of the front door again. They'll never
embrace their family again. There's always going to be an
empty chair at Thanksgiving, and they're completely absent that.
Speaker 4 (24:04):
And it.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
Is at a point now where those deaths are entertainment,
is what it comes down to.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
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It's amazing that, you know, that that's what it is, right?
Speaker 2 (25:52):
I mean, on my feed, I'll get, I don't know,
10 videos a days of young Russian or Ukrainian boys
being vaporized or blown up by drone strikes. And They
put heavy metal music on it to make it entertaining, right? Or,
you know, I'm watching whatever's going on, you know, in
(26:13):
the Middle East or Iran or the Gulf States or
wherever it is, right? You're right. It has lost that
sensation of what you talk about with your family, the
collective dressing of the body, the intimacy of the process, right?
or being out there, I can't, can only imagine being
(26:33):
like a young boy standing around your uncles and grand pappy.
And like, they're sitting there and they're, they're pulling off
moonshot and they're digging and coming in like, boy, get
over here and get your back into this. And it's like,
you know, you feel the pain on your fingertips and
then you, you know, you go in to get a
drink of milk and you see the body in your,
(26:54):
in your kitchen or whatever. Like there's a, there's a,
you can't, you can't, you can't distill that down to, uh,
what the, the, a transaction and a sensory transaction, like, like, uh,
some video game or a movie or whatever. And, and
that's what we've been remarkably able to do is this
(27:16):
culture of death that exists in your world and my world,
first responders, whatever it is, right. That it's, And it's
the inevitability of that, that, that, uh, what the, the, the, the, the, it's,
you can taste it. You can feel it. You can
(27:37):
smell it. You smell it.
Speaker 4 (27:40):
Right.
Speaker 2 (27:40):
Versus, you know, oh, there's one, there's another, there's a
guy getting kicked in the head. Oh, there's a guy,
you know, there's a bad accident, all.
Speaker 3 (27:47):
That, right. Whatever.
Speaker 2 (27:50):
But then it goes even a step further. And it's interesting.
I'm not sure if I asked you this, but do
you ever read Dave Grossman's book on killing?
Speaker 4 (27:59):
No, I haven't.
Speaker 3 (28:00):
Yeah, I recommend it. It's a book that they have
us read in the teams.
Speaker 2 (28:05):
Dave went to West Point, was Ranger qualified, never went
to combat, but became a teacher and taught.
Speaker 3 (28:14):
At West Point.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
And he really came out to realize there's all this
great education on leadership or strategy or whatever, but there
was no fundamental, uh, literature on killing itself and what
it meant. So he goes back and he interviews, I
don't know, like 5,000 or some, some humongous number of
(28:38):
men that have killed people in combat, what the sensation was,
what it was feeling, the whole thing. writes this book
and comes up with a phrase called killology. So the
science of killing and how it affects, which was just
earth shattering to me when I first read this as
a young operator. And then he followed up that book
(29:00):
with a book called On Combat, where he did a
similar thing with police officers and first responders getting in
shoots and the difference there. And the whole pretense is
that as a society in these warrior classes or in
the class where death, the cult, the culture of death is,
is relevant to the execution of your task, right? We
(29:23):
were looking at it in the wrong way because we were,
we were distilling down that, that sense of empathy that
you talked about with your family, right? Or what you've
witnessed with that, that the woman or the husband or
the mother tearing their hair out and screaming right we
we've lost that and now it's even more and so
(29:47):
it's like you know these conversations about death uh are
not penetrating through the entertainment factor they're not and and
like I mean, you, you are probably what a top
three or four people in America, probably in the world
(30:08):
that are having these conversations about the next level, like the,
the scientific perspective, which, and I think, and I want
you to explain to me when you're giving these talks
or you're on these shows, is there something in you
that is going to, is hopeful will emerge that, through
(30:31):
the the scientific deliberation that emotional state will come into
play because man every time i talk to you like
it's been the best discussions of death i think i've
ever had like that first one we had was i
hadn't had anything like that in my life and i've
been talking about death for a long time now and
and do you feel like that's part of your objective
(30:52):
when you're in these discussions that it will provoke that
deeper level introspection.
Speaker 1 (30:58):
Yeah and Part of me does, right? And here's why.
I work really hard to be the voice of, and it's, again,
one of those statements that's kind of wrote that you
hear a lot in our field. We speak for those
that can no longer speak for themselves, right? And so
I try to remain, and I hate the term mindful,
(31:21):
I try to remain spiritually connected through my own faith
where I'm thinking, You know, I've got literally God is
watching what I'm saying and what I'm doing. And am
I showing honor to those that that have passed on?
(31:45):
And also, am I showing respect to those that are grieving?
Because there is and let's just go ahead and I
want to disabuse anybody from this. I always try to
emphasize this term. I hate this freaking term closure. I've
always hated it because it ain't real. It's an academic
word and it's a disrespectful word to those that are
(32:08):
going through grief. Those that have been in the field,
whether it's combat or in my world where you see
carnage all over the place, there ain't no closure to that.
You'll have closure someday and you'll move on. So These
people that we're talking about that are, in fact, real
(32:30):
people that have experienced real trauma and real horror. And
I mean horror in a way that most of us
cannot even appreciate. And I've been around thousands of dead
bodies and thousands of deaths, but I can't appreciate the
horror that welled up within that soul that I'm conveying
(32:51):
a message to or I'm trying to explain something to.
Speaker 4 (32:54):
So back to your question. point. I'm sorry, I was
kind of chasing rabbits. No, I love when you chase
those rabbits.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
But it's when, you know, when I do go on,
I try to put myself in that position. You know,
can I say something here that would connect with humanity
of what has been lost? And I'll go into graphic
detail when I explain. And it's not that, look, I
(33:20):
can sit around and talk about all the graphic stuff
you want to. I got, you know, I got Files
and files of it.
Speaker 4 (33:26):
All right. How much do you need?
Speaker 2 (33:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (33:30):
How much do you need?
Speaker 1 (33:31):
And, you know, how far, you know, at what point
have you enriched yourself enough on the pain of people
to the point where you're no longer trying to understand
how a case actually played out or how a case worked?
Now you want to take it up another notch. And
(33:51):
that's what's so scary to me. because can I give
you kind of a little insight?
Speaker 3 (33:58):
Please, please.
Speaker 1 (34:00):
There's a troubling trend that I have seen over the
cases that I have covered in the news media and
have covered on my podcast. And it involves dismemberment. And
(34:20):
the reason this is disturbing to me And again, I
haven't done a scientific study. However, it seems to me
that we have been in a phase where there are
more cases that are coming across my desk that I
(34:41):
do analysis on where it has not just been enough
for perpetrators to kill people. Now we're into a realm
of where I'm seeing more and more cases of individuals
that are dismemberment, dismembering, conducting dismemberment.
Speaker 3 (35:02):
The mutilation of their victim, right?
Speaker 2 (35:06):
Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:07):
And many times it serves no purpose because you've got
those that have a certain psychopathy with them. You know,
if you go back and you look at, you know,
there are certain serial killers that have that tendency that'll
do that, right? But now, you know, you've got groups
of people out there that are not committing serialized cases,
(35:30):
but they're killing people, and then they're going one step beyond,
and they're doing decapitations, dismemberment of, you know, the axilla,
you know, just on and on and on. And most
of the time, they'll get halfway through it, and they
don't really realize what they're getting into, you know, once
they're into the middle of it, and then they're trying
(35:51):
to dispose of the remains of it. Many times you'll
have people that actually have utility for what they want
to do. Let me parse out this body to the
point where I can make it easy to transport and
dispose of.
Speaker 2 (36:03):
Right.
Speaker 1 (36:05):
But there has been like for me, at least in
the media. And so I don't know if that's like
a kind of a warning shot over the bow that now,
you know.
Speaker 4 (36:14):
You are at the Rubicon.
Speaker 1 (36:15):
I feel like we cross Rubicon, but it's kind of
a further disrespect to.
Speaker 4 (36:23):
Of the humanity of an individual.
Speaker 2 (36:25):
Well, for me, the fact that you're bringing that I've
noticed this since the cartel wars were raging in early
2000s From, you know, 08, 09, 2012 Like from 2009
to 2011 or whatever it was Down in Jalisco, right?
Speaker 3 (36:44):
We had a lot of movies The.
Speaker 2 (36:47):
Sicario movies are a representation of that Where cartel members
are just blatantly butchering bodies, hanging them from bridges. And
it's almost like you go back to those ancient times
of mutilation and domination and what it was. And then
you're like, oh, wow, that's– all right. But it's a cartel.
But it's a cartel. And what we also– with the
(37:09):
serial killing. But then all of a sudden, I'm watching
a movie like Snatch. And the famous scene with Bricktop.
And he goes, if you wanted to get rid of
a body, you need pigs, right? Always beware of the
pig farmer. And people loved this whole thing of this
unique monologue of destroying, getting rid of a body. And
(37:30):
then all of a sudden, and I just rewatched it recently,
I watched Breaking Bad. And one of the defining character
traits is how they get rid of bodies through this
whole thing. Yeah. And again, it was affiliated with cartel
or whatever. But like you said, now you're seeing it.
We're seeing it with crimes of passion or reactions or whatever. Obviously,
(37:52):
we're seeing a butchery overseas in Europe with the stabbings
and the people.
Speaker 4 (37:59):
Acid attacks.
Speaker 2 (38:00):
The acid attacks and all this. And like you're right, man.
I think the Rubicon is being crossed now. I think
it's a component in my mind, and I'd love to
hear where you think it's coming from. I think it's
a derivative of like you, we were discussing the, the,
the muting through the entertainment circumstances, right? We need to
(38:23):
be more extreme, more extreme. And, and, and that's why
people will watch, especially with 15,000 streaming platforms. If I
create the movie where this butchery is in there, that
I'll guarantee me whatever. We just saw it with, um,
With the show about– with the disgraced actor who had the–
(38:44):
but it was– he was in Europe and he goes
over and he's the vigilante. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (38:49):
Yeah, you remember I'm talking– Armie Hammer was in it.
Armie Hammer.
Speaker 2 (38:52):
Yeah, and Elon Musk reposted it and then it blew
up in like some– like 200 million views on X,
this movie. you know, and I'm like, wait, wasn't that
the guy who talked about cannibalism, cannibalism, sexualized cannibalism and
his stuff.
Speaker 3 (39:08):
And now he's in this.
Speaker 2 (39:09):
Movie, you know, uh, killing immigrants and, you know, and
I'm like, what the hell is going on? And then
we're seeing it in real time in the way people
are slaughtering each other. Why do you think it's taking place? Like,
and I know that's a massive question, right? It's got
(39:30):
biblical connotations it's got historical cultural connotation but there's like
you said i feel it too you feel it i
think those of us who've lived within a culture of
death are it's it's obvious right and then you there's
that other component where you see a lot of people
saying we're at in the spiritual war as well too
so they're adding that yeah in that frame so why
(39:53):
do you think this is taking place.
Speaker 1 (39:55):
It's desensitization i think to a great degree but i
think one of the warning signs when the clancy case
is not the first one with dead kids all right
and this is this is growing to Regularly, we see people,
and all you got to do, if you look at
your newsfeed, there's always some group of people, this thing
(40:18):
that happened, for instance, in Ohio with all of those
kids living in squalor up there. And if you think
that that's the only case like that, you need to
open your eyes because there are other cases like that.
And it's the humans individually are devalued. And when you
get to the point where you can devalue a child,
(40:41):
It's one thing, you know, and look, man, I started
out when dinosaurs roamed the earth. I look back at it,
you know, in the early mid-80s, you know, and I
came up as a death investigator during that period of
time when drive-bys were first starting and the crack wars
were going on. And when you've got grown individuals that
(41:04):
are shooting one another, it's a lot easier, I think,
as a death investigator where I can go and, you know,
kind of rationalize this and work my way through it.
But nowadays, you know, the death investigators that are out
there and they're seeing, you know, maybe more abuse-related deaths
and deaths where, you know, children are involved, they're being
(41:24):
starved to death, neglected, or where, you know, kids are
just an inconvenience, you know. That's a sign, you know,
it's a sign to me. Also, that plays into the
way the elderly are treated as well. And you see
those cases. Talking about dismemberment, it's like a covert case.
(41:46):
I don't know if it's been a year, year and
a half. This was out of Maryland where a daughter
and her daughter took grandma, killed grandma, and then tried
to render her, after they had partially dismembered her body,
tried to render her body down on the gas grill
in the backyard. And, you know, where do you even
begin to Be able to do the arithmetic on that,
(42:09):
you know, to try to understand it. Now, I can
explain science to you, you know, and we can talk
about the dynamics of the tool marks that are left
behind on the surfaces of the bone. What type of
instrument was used? How long had she been dead? the exposure,
what level of, you know, based upon the level of
tissue destruction, what level of heat was the body subjected to,
(42:31):
you know, all of those sorts of things. You know,
I can talk about that, but at the end of
the day, when you draw it back in and you're
sitting there in the dark at home, you know, and,
you know, you're reflecting on all of this, it's hard
to take the measure of it, you know, and, and,
You see these things now a lot. And that was
(42:55):
one of the big indicators for me because, you know, look,
I'm an outlier. when it comes to the rest of
the human race, because of the things I've seen, I
know that my world, my worldview is not in any
way normal.
Speaker 4 (43:08):
All right.
Speaker 1 (43:09):
And I always have to, always have to brace myself
relative to that and understand that I'm a weirdo. I'm
a weirdo in the sense that most people that are
going to a cocktail party are going to go hang out,
you know, and, you know, gee, what do you do
for a living?
Speaker 4 (43:23):
What have you been talking about this week?
Speaker 1 (43:24):
You know, I've, I've been trying to be the best
salesman that I can, you know, I'm not going to
fit real, I'm not going to fit well into the conversation.
Speaker 2 (43:32):
Right.
Speaker 3 (43:33):
And except I know, I know the feeling, except if.
Speaker 4 (43:36):
It's right, you are, except if it's for the purposes
of entertainment.
Speaker 3 (43:42):
Oh, interesting.
Speaker 2 (43:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:44):
And so, and I, that's something that, so I can't
blame it all on the period of time that we're
in now, but, And, you know, I know that probably
when you would rotate back home and any of your colleagues,
you know, if you go out to a party and
(44:06):
you're with regular civilian types and, you know, and they
find out what you do or did for a living,
you know, for us, it's always, well, you know, what's the.
Speaker 4 (44:19):
Worst thing you've ever seen?
Speaker 3 (44:21):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4 (44:23):
You can't handle my worst. You can't.
Speaker 1 (44:28):
You cannot handle my worst. And I don't understand why
you're asking me this question. Because if I am human
and you ask me what's the worst thing you've ever seen,
that's like saying, wow, tell me about your divorce.
Speaker 4 (44:43):
What was that like? Yeah, 100%. And so people will
ask you those questions. And so that's always....
Speaker 1 (44:52):
You know, that's always been– I think that's part of
human nature because people love to hear– they love to
hear tales. They love to tell stories. They love to
hear stories. And they want to brush up against it
just enough.
Speaker 4 (45:06):
Yes. But they don't want to get none of it
on them.
Speaker 1 (45:08):
All right? And they don't want to be– they don't
actually want to go to the morgue with a bloated,
maggot-infested body, but they want to know what it's like.
They don't want to go to Coronado with a mask
filled with water. and having to do all of that
stuff that you guys have to do, they want to
hear about it. They don't want to do it. And
(45:32):
I'm being very polite to you with that in the
sense that that's part of the training, but the stuff
that you saw in country. That's right. It's the same
thing for us. I went through all of the training
that I could go through to try to spin myself
up to the point where I could do this at
this pace for a 20-year period. But even after that
(45:56):
period of time, you never see everything. And that's why
I always tell my students, if there's ever someone in
forensics that comes up to you and says, well, I've seen.
Speaker 2 (46:07):
It all, run.
Speaker 1 (46:09):
Don't walk away from them. Run, because there's no way
that you've ever seen it all. That's an empirical impossibility.
Speaker 4 (46:16):
But now....
Speaker 1 (46:19):
But for me, in present context, it's the idea that
it seems as though that the pace has quickened. The
pace has quickened from my perspective now, taking this kind
of higher altitude view of it from the newsy side.
(46:41):
From the podcast side, seeing these cases and the intensity
of the lack of kind of compassion, I think, that's
out there because it's all very salacious. And we've got a,
I think that we've got a real, we're in the
midst of a major spiritual battle with all of this.
Speaker 4 (47:04):
To me, to me, we are at least.
Speaker 3 (47:06):
No, I 100% agree.
Speaker 2 (47:08):
You know, when you can have, you know, I mean,
there's certain groups within our society that, where the expectation of,
of what that, that hardened perspective, like if you grew
up in the inner city and you, you know, you
watched your dad get killed at four years old, or
(47:29):
you're on the street and it's eye for an eye
and it's like selling drug, like, it's like, okay, well
then of course they're going to be it. But now
all of a sudden you're seeing, you know, The 15-year-old
kid who's playing– what is the video game where the
GT8 or whatever just came out and now like the
(47:52):
animation or the AI of how you murder somebody is
such an intimate part of the game. And this goes
back to some of what Dave Grossman does when he
travels around the country and speaking to police officers and whomever.
is like, Hey, there is a desensitization that will have
a profound impact dependent upon the level of exposure. And
(48:16):
then also the underlying component of whatever moral framework that
person is holding themselves accountable to.
Speaker 3 (48:24):
And, and I, I, you.
Speaker 2 (48:26):
See it like you see, you know, whether it's, it's the,
the sites that are all about showing street fights.
Speaker 3 (48:35):
And people getting cold cocked or getting knocked out.
Speaker 2 (48:37):
I mean, Chuck Lidell has a whole thing he does
that's blown up where he sits with some guy and
they interview one of these street fights.
Speaker 3 (48:45):
And he's like, well, that was the dumbest thing. I
wouldn't have done that. And like, it's got millions of
views on these things, you know?
Speaker 2 (48:50):
And, but there's this fascination, like you said, to rub
up next to it, to get so close to it
that they, they feel like you, you can, what you
can osmolotically gain an appreciation for it. But what I'm seeing,
like what you're saying and that spiritual devolvement, like you
get near it, but like the part that's most supposed
(49:14):
to make you go, oh, wow, that's really horrible and
tragic for both people and for their families.
Speaker 3 (49:20):
Members and for all this.
Speaker 2 (49:21):
And like, that has been muted to such a profound
degree that like, okay, well, I mean, what's the next
evolution then is where, you know, and, and, you know,
obviously you have a lot of people like we're on
the brink of civil war, we're on the brink of
world war three. And, you know, and, and to a
(49:44):
certain degree, there's a component that you can make a
good argument for those ideas, but like the people that
are advocating for it. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (49:51):
It's almost like, and this is the thing about it. Uh,
they're begging for it.
Speaker 2 (49:55):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (49:56):
It almost, it has that, it has that feeling. And, um, Uh,
when I hear comments like that, and they, again, coming
from my little perspective of, of a death investigator, um,
you might think you want carnage or you might think
(50:17):
that that's going to be the solution, but let me
take you back in time. Let's, you know, let me
show you, you know, and I can't, I mean, there's
no way I can, you know, Let's let me take
you to a house where eight people have all been
murdered systematically. And, you know, and you're slipping as an
investigator in the blood that you're you're there. You're bearing
(50:38):
witness to it and you're seeing what is left behind
and all of the carnage. Is that what you want?
You know, is this is this really what you want?
You know, at this end. People have a real disconnect,
I think, from that. First off, they've never been connected
to it to begin with, and so it's just like
(51:00):
another mile marker along the road of life where they
just kind of pass it by, and they don't realize
what the reality of it is. There's things that would
impact them to the point where they— you know, they
would not want to see or do. It's like, I don't,
I don't go home. Like Kimmy and I don't, it's
(51:21):
not like, it's not like we sit around and, you know,
I watch shows about death investigation, you know, every day.
The height, the height of my, I live vicariously through
House Hunters International, you know, so, you know, we'll sit
there and that's, or I watch, I watch something relative
(51:42):
to history. I don't, You know, I don't engage with
it because I talk about it so much. And look,
somebody's going to talk about it. I want to try
as best I can to be the reasonable person in
the room relative to it and, you know, to talk
about those things that I see. But we have an
(52:03):
appetite for it. And it's– I don't– I guess we've
always had an appetite for it.
Speaker 3 (52:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (52:11):
I always make the comparison, you know, with true crime
in particular that, you know, we've, even when we were kids,
if there was a campfire, somebody would want to sit
around and tell ghost stories, right? Or they would want
to tell about some horrible event that happened in a community.
And that's always been, that's part of who we are.
I think you could probably go back to our ancestors
(52:33):
that maybe were sitting around a campfire somewhere at some
point in time and they're telling these stories. Either maybe
they're telling a story to learn from or they're telling
a story to scare their kids with or.
Speaker 3 (52:42):
Whatever the case might be. Well, I mean, you think
about it.
Speaker 2 (52:45):
I mean, obviously, it's pretty apparent that the campfire has
been the conduit for lessons that we learned through the–
the infinite evaluation of iterable behaviors, right?
Speaker 3 (52:59):
Like that's where it started.
Speaker 2 (53:01):
And then somewhere along the line was like, hey, let's
slap that up on the wall of the cave, right?
And then it's like, I'm going to jam it into
some of these bizarre little hieroglyphics and that'll be the
record of death in life, right? Even you go back
and you look at like the founding creation myth of
ancient Syria, like what is called the Inu Elish or
(53:23):
whatever it is, And it's this battle of gods, right?
Speaker 3 (53:27):
And it's the, the, the death of some gods.
Speaker 2 (53:30):
You know, versus the, the immersion of a singular God
and whatever his name from Madonna or whatever his name was.
But like, like it's been such an integrated component of
how we generate the appropriate moral structures or metaphors that
the archetypical stories are a derivative of the finality of
(53:51):
our own existence or the, the, the, the, the, the,
the perpetuation.
Speaker 3 (53:57):
Of, and prevalence of violence, right.
Speaker 2 (54:00):
As a distinguishing character trait of our species and our
ability to dominate or control. And so, you know, that's there,
but it seems like, you know, post 20th century with,
I mean, what is it? 200, maybe 250 million human
beings in a single century, more than all other centuries combined,
(54:22):
all combined, even with Genghis Khan, right. And the 40
million plus he potentially killed you have it. We destroyed
that because why we became so detached from the, the,
the level of technological ability and then the unrestricted justification
(54:43):
of mass carnage, right?
Speaker 4 (54:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (54:47):
And I think about that and you were talking about
those kids that are, you know, all entrenched over, you know,
in the Ukraine. They've been banging away at each other
all this period of time. And I've seen those videos,
you know, and of course, I'm, you know, my mind
automatically defers back to Or, you know, I go back
(55:12):
and I think, well, you know, what would that injury
assessment look like?
Speaker 2 (55:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (55:15):
And even in my scientific mind, I'm trying to assess it.
But the reality is, is that that kid's life ended
right then, probably for nothing, you know, at the end
of the day. And when you we have talking about
the level of carnage that we bear witness to. It has,
(55:38):
in fact, and I sound like such an old man
saying this, but I think that it's the reality. It
has been hyper-accelerated as a result of all of the media.
And you had mentioned it, everything that's available out there.
And we're just talking about, you know, you had mentioned streaming,
you know, streaming. But just, you know, the hidden little
bits of the Internet that are all over the place
(55:59):
in the world that we're out there.
Speaker 2 (56:01):
4chan, 8chan.
Speaker 4 (56:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (56:04):
Live leak back in the, I remember.
Speaker 2 (56:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (56:06):
Live leak. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (56:07):
I remember the.
Speaker 2 (56:08):
First time I paid attention to live leak is they
had the towel band. Someone had posted the video of
operation Red Wing and they had the, the fight and,
you know, and I, I put all those guys through
training and, and had a very, uh, very deep appreciation
for Danny Dietz, um, who was the radio operator on
that reconnaissance team because he was an artist.
Speaker 3 (56:31):
And he was a really talented kid.
Speaker 2 (56:33):
And I was just like, man, like this is a
really special guy. And when that came out and there's
video of them going through his kit with his body
on the ground and he's riddled with bullet holes, you know, like, and,
and that's that, that it's like, that's entertainment for them. And,
and then whether, and then for us, it's like, oh no, well.
Speaker 3 (56:56):
Or it's, it's entertainment for us.
Speaker 2 (56:58):
Even you look at some podcasters and their opening will,
you know, show them, you know, firing at whatever, blowing
something up or what, you know, like in their careers or,
you know, and, and I, it's like, man, the further
we get away from like the, the reality of this
(57:21):
carnage and what it does to you intimately is Should
you give yourself the unfortunate opportunity to process it where
it should and should be processed, especially if you even
remotely advocate or present yourself as spiritual.
Speaker 3 (57:40):
In any way, shape, or form.
Speaker 2 (57:42):
I'm a Christian, and so I'm devoted, one, to God
above all others, treating my neighbor better as I treat myself.
But then also having the compassion of the tired, the sick,
the lame, the oppressed, the people who suffered from war
on both sides no matter what. And so– and I
(58:04):
just was– I gave a presentation today which I talked
about maximizing performance thresholds in the last slide. I show
a juxtaposition of me and my, my only combat deployment
in the team is my first trip to Afghanistan versus, uh, me, uh, uh,
getting ready to perform a wedding ceremony just two years
ago to my, my wife's youngest brother. And, and I,
(58:27):
and I forced people, I say, see this person right here,
this person has hate in his heart, right? This person,
cause I conjured up this hate thinking that this was
going to be the avenue for me to do my
job better. Plus, I was pretty pissed after 9-11. And
then the photo is actually taken at Tarnak Farms, which
is where bin Laden's headquarters were. And I'm standing about
(58:49):
a couple hundred meters away from where a good friend
of mine, Matt Bourgeois, was blown up. And so the
combination of that whole confluence of– like I really had
to hate. Like I didn't matter. I didn't care. I'm just–
like I'm there to seek vengeance, right? A biblical-style vengeance.
And that– killed me for the next three and a
(59:12):
half years until i realized and if i don't change
this i'm gonna be dead right and there are multiple
times where i considered you know ending it and then
it was through a mentor of mine who was a
reverend at my high school i'd gone to and i
went to church for the first time and And I,
and he's like, and someone, two friends had asked me
(59:33):
to marry them. My first one, meanwhile, we're in the
bar and my motorcycle's in the middle of the bar.
Speaker 3 (59:39):
I'm, I'm, I'm out of control. And they like, Hey,
would you marry us? And I'm like, yeah, it'll be great.
Speaker 2 (59:46):
And then the next day I sober up and I'm like, dude,
I should, I'm, I am in no place or position
to bring forth, you know, God in this, you know,
and it ended up being this, you know, black tie
affair at the, at, at, at, uh, the big, uh,
hotel up in Palm beach on the Island.
Speaker 3 (01:00:05):
And, you know, and, and, and, you know, and these,
you know, just, and I'm like, I can't do this.
Speaker 2 (01:00:10):
So I went to church and I, I asked this
Reverend and I, cause I was really struggling. I go,
I don't know what to do. I don't know where
to start. And he goes, start at the beginning, start
with the word, right? And, and in those lessons, it
was really about discovering, rediscovering the sense of empathy for
other people. And, and, and that became the thing that
(01:00:33):
opened this door for me to emerge back to a
place where I really wanted to help people, right. With
whatever it is I was doing with kids or whatever.
And that became the thing that saved me. And so
it's like now I'm sitting here and I'm in this
space and I'm watching– I don't know if you can
(01:00:56):
say it's a collect, but it's many, many, many, many,
many individuals, like millions of people that are allowing– themselves
to be entertained by the destruction of other souls and
so when i see you step into that arena which
is a very very cutthroat arena like and i see
(01:01:20):
you present with this calmness this rationalization this uh sophistication
but also this underlying concurrence of Hey, you know, think
about placing yourself in the shoes of those people that
were dramatically affected or impacted by this to garner some
of that or promote or to ignite some of that
(01:01:42):
higher order empathy. Man, it's just like I commend you
and I couldn't commend you enough.
Speaker 4 (01:01:49):
Well, thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:01:49):
And one of the things I always return back to
anytime I'm talking about things, I do have still have
the ability. even after all the therapy and everything that
I went through for my journey with PTSD, the words
that I've written, all the stuff, you know, over the years,
(01:02:11):
I have the ability to reflect upon this and think
that this is not happening to me. This is happening
to them. And I have to do the best that
I can to kind of present this in a way
because I cannot identify, like Erica Kirk, there's no way
(01:02:33):
that I can identify with what that woman has gone through.
Speaker 3 (01:02:37):
Period.
Speaker 4 (01:02:37):
End of paragraph.
Speaker 1 (01:02:41):
You know, I can't imagine, you know, Charlie's family members,
you know, his mama and his daddy. You know, I can't,
you know, I can't imagine that. All I can do
is talk about the science of it, and try to
be reasonable and be a reasonable voice in amongst all
of this craziness and this static that is constantly surrounding
(01:03:03):
us nowadays. Because it's intense. It is intense. And there
is no definitive answer that we can say, well, because
it's like spitting in the ocean to raise the water level.
It ain't going to do too much damn good. And
it's the world that we're in right now.
Speaker 2 (01:03:20):
Well, let me interrupt you on that. Spitting in the
ocean does cause a reverberation. It does cause a ripple. Right.
And if, if, if you're one ripple can, can impact
one person, then, then it's, it's worth it.
Speaker 3 (01:03:34):
I think. Wow.
Speaker 4 (01:03:37):
There you said it.
Speaker 2 (01:03:39):
Doc, I just, man, I, one, I just, I'm, I'm
really grateful that you're out there and you're doing this
and you're bringing that rationalization. You're bringing that, that, um, uh, the,
what is it? It's, it's, it's almost like you're, you're
becoming a mediator and it's really, it's really unique that
(01:04:01):
as a person that it's been, uh, you know, so
utterly immersed in the most horrific aspect of our existence,
like through you, that light can shine, which is, you know,
I think God always picks the, you know, the person that,
you least expect that's going to have the greatest impact.
Speaker 4 (01:04:20):
I would be the least among us. I would be.
Speaker 2 (01:04:24):
I would be. I hope you keep it up. I
just know Jordy and I are praying for you and
a lot of other people. And just thank you once
again for coming on and having this level conversation with us.
Speaker 4 (01:04:37):
You bet, brother. Thank you. God bless you.
I would have people, you know, say things to me
about death and say things to me about particular cases.
And I like to engage with them from a scientific standpoint.
But when it's almost like a feeding frenzy and then
the next thing is we're looking to satisfy the next
thing that's going to come along, that death's not enough
(00:22):
for you. What do you got on the menu next?
It's like people are like a disgusting buffet. Death has
become entertainment. And it's really sad, I think, that we
judge the Romans so harshly about gladiatorial games and things
(00:43):
that went on. We're no better. We're no better. As
a matter of fact, I think that there's such a menu.
Do you remember all those years ago, there were all
those videos, particularly in the wake of 9-11, where some
group of terrorists would capture somebody and they would kill them.
You know, they'd kill them on video. And then, of course,
(01:07):
that would be sent all the way around the world.
And there was, back when that was happening, people would,
it would almost be vomit-inducing. You know, people would be
so taken aback by it. It's nothing nowadays. You know,
people are so numb to it.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Welcome back to the show, everybody. Today is the 25th
anniversary of 9-11. And it's a day that has a
significant impact, has had a significant impact on my life
in ways I never dreamed at the time.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
I was a young Navy SEAL. The whole world shifted.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
And then out of this day, we received 22 years
of the global war on terror. In that time, over
100 SEALs have died in combat operations. And then also
we've lost over 100 SEALs to suicide since that time
as well, too. The experience impacted me in many different
(02:06):
ways with operator syndrome, as well as just trying to
manage what that experience was like in a way where
I knew it was going to stay with me for
my whole life. But the one thing about it that
really always kind of pushes through all of the the
negativity of it was how America reacted in the aftermath
(02:26):
of that tragic day and that profound loss of life.
I remember being in San Diego and every house had
American street. People were nice to each other. They, they,
they engaged with each other in a very meaningful way.
They were kind to one another. They were sympathetic. They
were empathetic for each other. And that was really a
(02:47):
special time for me. And, although I wasn't looking at
it the way I look at life nowadays at 54,
I certainly was able to recognize the uniqueness of how
the human spirit was being influenced at such an extreme
level with empathy and the consideration of the impact of
(03:08):
death had on us and as the country itself. Unfortunately,
time alters all things. And over the last several years,
we once again have begun to bear the burden of tragedy,
constant tragedy. And I think now with where we're at
(03:29):
with the internet and social media, those tragedies aren't unifying
us in any way, shape, or form. It's actually generating division.
Just look at the Charlie Kirk case, and yesterday was
the anniversary of that, and If you were paying attention
on X, you'd see some people that it was a
conspiracy and some people it wasn't and the vitriol of
(03:52):
going at each other. You see in the Clancy case
up in Boston and where you have large swaths of
single women or married women who believe she's innocent of
this profound tragedy of killing her three children and then
the other side, people attacking her for being evil or
demonic or whatever it is. And so one of the
(04:16):
person that I think has been at the forefront of
this type of an, of the analysis, the, the analysis
that we, we, we think is going to, uh, enhance
our opinions of this in a forensic capacity. Cause he's
one of the greatest, uh, forensics guys in the entire country.
And he's been involved in this for 40 years.
Speaker 3 (04:37):
Um, Dr. Joseph Scott Morgan.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
And if you recently saw him, he did an amazing
episode with Jillian Dory and Baron Coleman about the Charlie
Kirk case. He covers constantly with Nancy Grace. He's on
three times a week with her. He's covering the Clancy case.
This is the guy you go to that really will
help you deconstruct and understand it from a forensic capacity,
(05:03):
from the science. What I love about this man is
that there's another– There's another level of understanding that he
brings to the table. And that's an understanding of the
impact of death and what it has on the people
that are affiliated with it. He has more than once
had to inform family members of a loved one's death.
(05:26):
More than once he's had to testify. More than once
he's had to evaluate death in the most grotesque ways imaginable.
But yet he kept coming back and kept doing it.
So when we had him on a few months ago,
we were able to have this really beautiful discussion, not
(05:46):
so much about forensics, but about the impact of death.
And so on this solemn Memorial Day of 9-11, in
conjunction with all of the other challenging circumstances that people
are being forced to evaluate within themselves, which side of
death do I stand on and why? I thought, who
(06:08):
better to bring on to have a discussion of maybe
how we can look at it a little differently or
how we can understand it in a way that doesn't
pit us against each other. So without further ado, Joe,
welcome back to the show.
Speaker 4 (06:22):
Thanks, brother. Good to be with you, Brett.
Speaker 3 (06:24):
Thank you, sir.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
I watched the episode with you and Julian and Baron Coleman,
and for me, it represented— chat a little bit before
we hopped on about it like it represented this profound
moment i thought and all of the the vitriol the
insidiousness that seems to just coming out and i think
(06:49):
whether whatever side or sides you're on or wherever you're
on there's a natural propensity to be hyper emotional about
in particular a figure like like charlie was or even
now you know i've seen the disgusting nature of how
people are interacting with Mondani or, you know, not wanting
him to show it. Like you just see this vitriol
(07:11):
is just seems to be gathering steam, whether it's in
Gaza or it's.
Speaker 3 (07:16):
In Ukraine or wherever it is.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
I wanted to get your opinion on why you think
in the current state that we're in as a country that,
just the world because of how connected we are. Why
do you think this level of vitriol or an inability
to see the other persons or at least acknowledge the
other persons, the impact of this death on them?
Speaker 3 (07:42):
Why are we seeing this take place right now?
Speaker 1 (07:46):
For me, just coming from the perspective of death investigation,
most folks out there don't understand the impact of death
from the perspective of it can show up at your
doorstep at any point in time. I can't tell you
how many living rooms I've sat in over the years
(08:08):
where I've got somebody weeping, tearing their clothes and pulling
their hair out, literally, completely decompensating over the fact that
their child has died or that their spouse has died.
And it's that reality that kind of punches you in
the face. When you get into this world that is
(08:30):
so dictated by this, it's very, very easy, I think,
to pick sides. But when you're physically there and you
smell that sickly sweet smell of blood and you see
(08:54):
the trauma, that has occurred. All of that, you know, it, it,
that pales in comparison to whatever side you might be on.
Death is, and it's kind of rote to say this,
but death is a great equalizer, you know, in all
of this. And I've borne witness to it for a long,
long time. And as you, as you stated, and, you know,
(09:18):
and I've got the gray hair to prove it, you know,
and it's, it's, There's so many times, you know, over
the years, and it's not just what's going on right now.
I would have people, you know, say things to me
about death and say things to me about particular cases.
And I like to engage with them from a scientific standpoint.
(09:39):
But when it's almost like a feeding frenzy and then
the next thing is we're looking to satisfy the next
thing that's going to come along, that death's not enough
for you. What do you got on the menu next?
It's like people are like a disgusting buffet.
Speaker 4 (10:00):
Many times.
Speaker 1 (10:01):
And I see that happen over and over and over again.
They'll beat their chest and throw out these platitudes about,
you know, how much they care about the family or
how much they care about this and all that. But then,
you know, okay, so what's, What's on the channel next?
What is it that I can feed this desire with?
And now we've gotten to the point where we're so
(10:23):
numb to death. I was reflecting not too long ago
about when I wrote my memoir many years ago, I
talked about the process of families taking care of bodies.
And if you'll just let me go down this road
just for a second. Please, please. And my granny had
(10:48):
actually told me this many years ago, and I conveyed
it in my memoir. She talked about how in the
old days that they would take the biggest door off
the hinges in the house, put it between two chairs,
and women in the family would take the loved one
(11:09):
that had passed away in that family, and they would
clean and dress the body. And the men would go
out and dig the hole. And they'd probably be, as
my grandpa used to say, pulling a cork along the way,
taking a sip, and they would be celebrating the life
of that individual. And there's a lot to be said
(11:32):
about the concept of an Irish wake, where people can
laugh and grieve and scream and carry on. And no
one is really going to judge you. It's just part
of that process. Things are so hermetically sealed now in
the way we handle things, even death. You know, you
(11:53):
have some stranger come into your house and pick up
a body and they talk in deep, serious tones. And
they've got perfect lighting, you know, at the funeral home.
And they're, you know, showing a PowerPoint, you know, playing
music that they think that the dead person liked. And
then they're going to go on with their life. And
we don't have that period of time to really grieve
(12:14):
many times. That process has accelerated to the point now
where death has become entertainment. And it's really sad, I think,
that we judge the Romans so harshly about gladiatorial games
(12:35):
and things that went on. We're no better. We're no better.
As a matter of fact, I think that it's there's
such a menu. Do you remember, you know, all those
years ago, there were all those videos, particularly in the
wake of 9-11, where some group of terrorists would capture
somebody and they would kill them. They kill them on video.
(12:57):
And and then, of course, that would be sent all
the way around the world. And there was back when
that was happening, people would it would almost be vomit inducing.
You know, people would be so taken aback by it.
It's nothing nowadays.
Speaker 3 (13:13):
Nothing.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
You know, people are so numb to it. And until,
you know, those kind of icy fingers of death visit you,
you think that it's never going to happen to you.
And you're just going to kind of move on to
the next thing. And for me, that's the way I
see it. You know, I think about cases like JonBenet and,
(13:37):
you know, how that's been in the national conversation for
years and years.
Speaker 4 (13:41):
And yes, it's tragic.
Speaker 3 (13:43):
It's horrible.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
But, you know, I worked in New Orleans and Atlanta.
I had a lot of little girls that died and
they didn't make it through a 24 hour news cycle.
Speaker 3 (13:54):
It's just, I'm never even getting into it. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (13:56):
And so those, it just so happens she was chosen. Right.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
And, you know, what, what's the level of interest in, and,
you know, for those people moving along, you know, these,
These people don't, you know, they don't know this person
up in Massachusetts. They don't know them, but yet it's
a source of interest for them. And then dollars to donuts,
(14:20):
I bet you there'll be another one, and they will
move on to that one. It's almost like locusts, you know,
at this point. Yeah, so it gets interesting. And I
bear witness to it because, you know, I'm chief among sinners.
I'm in the media, right? And I try to bring
a balance relative to forensics and the analysis of it.
(14:40):
And that's why I felt the need, you know, when
I went on Julian's show with Barron, I wanted to
be a reasonable voice in the room, you know, to
talk about these things instead of screaming and pointing our
fingers at one another and carrying on. Because, you know,
you wind up in the same spot, you know, every
single time. And how do you make your way through it? Well,
(15:02):
the only way the only thing I have to add
to that conversation is, well, how do you properly process
a crime scene? How do you collect evidence? How do
you do the examination on the remains? Who does the
examination on the remains? What are their assessments? All those
sorts of things. And and that's a very, you know,
that's a very real thing that, you know, you can
(15:24):
bring to the conversation. But I don't necessarily know that
it's ever proven. that my little voice is ever going
to take the temperature down in the room, you know,
because I show up and talk about the science part
of it.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
I think what you did, sorry to cut you off.
I'm going to quell. Your humility is always one of
the most admirable things about you. But that one interview
was the thing that I think knocked this crescendo down
for moments, for a little bit of time, whatever it is.
And obviously you, yesterday it kind of inflamed again and
(15:59):
the anniversary of his death, but, but it did it
like punch through the vitriol a little bit and, and
gave it some, not sanity, but it gave it, it
gave it a proper context of rationalization, right? Where, where like,
it's like, oh, hey, well, let's, let's take a step
back and instead of projecting what we imagine the conspiracy
(16:23):
or what non-conspiracy or the conviction on one side or
the conspiracy on the other and let's just come back
and humanize this reality to a place where we can
you know what what take you know drop our our
our not guard but like it seems like this stuff
drives more of the offensive than the guard anymore and
you know, for that entertainment purpose. And it's almost like
(16:46):
people internally are entertained by their own comments they throw
into it as well, too.
Speaker 4 (16:52):
Yeah, they do.
Speaker 1 (16:53):
And, you know, we have these conversations about bots that
are out there and all these sorts of things. But,
you know, you see stuff that pops up. And I
don't know if I mentioned this to you.
Speaker 4 (17:07):
Previously. You know, I'm trying to think back.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
I've had people accusing me that, you know, it's like, obviously,
this is fed slop.
Speaker 4 (17:22):
That's the term they love to use now.
Speaker 3 (17:23):
You're an op. Joe's an op.
Speaker 4 (17:25):
Yeah, and that I work for the Mossad.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
And I keep telling people, you know, uh, I wish, uh, uh, yeah,
I've got, I've got a beach house in Tel Aviv
and I'm overlooking the Mediterranean and I'm getting a stipend.
Speaker 4 (17:38):
Every month, you know?
Speaker 1 (17:39):
And yeah, that's, uh, you know, no, I, I'm not,
you know, I'm just sitting here, you know, just trying
to analyze what I'm seeing before me based upon the
information that I have at the time and, you know, what's,
what's reasonable. But, you know, the problem is, is that
we no longer have, um, have reasonable conversations any longer.
And I know people, you know, go on and on
(18:01):
about this all the time, but in my world, and
you can't, it's, people have such a desire to take
science and readjust it to what their perception is. And
that's the beauty working in forensics is that now there's
many ways to interpret the findings, right? Defense will go
(18:25):
and hire their you know, they're defense experts if they're
going to trial. And of course, the state has their own.
And you can see a bit of forensic evidence and
there's a couple of different ways to look at it, right?
You can say, well, this is the what if, okay?
This is the potential that could have happened. But, you know,
to take it as gospel because, you know, somebody is,
(18:49):
you know, throwing as much oatmeal against the wall as
they can to see, you know, what's going to stick.
That's not part of the reality. The problem is, is
that that voice is much louder than any kind of
reasonable scientific voice. And then it gets traction, right? And
so it spreads like wildfire because it reinforces whatever it
is that they have in their brain that they're thinking
(19:10):
about at that particular time. I'm willing to explore as
many things as people want to explore, you know, whether it's,
you know, Charlie's death or the death of, you know,
of three kids at the hand of their mother who
admitted that she did it with elastic straps you know
(19:33):
i'll have that discussion with you and i'll talk about
the mechanism of it and we can talk about that
all day long but there's still that that bit of
humanity that is contained in all of that and people
forget about that and they lose sight of it i
think that's why you know Yeah, and I think about
the things that no one has borne witness to. You know,
(19:57):
the actual horror of the people that are rolling out
to the scene and what they have discovered and what
will always be in their memory. It's like I've got
a lot of friends that were Deployed with what's called DMORT.
People are not familiar with DMORT, but it's a federalized
(20:17):
organization that disaster mortuary operational response teams. And so the
nation is regionalized. And when 9-11 happened, I had a
bunch of my people that I worked with at the
ME's office that were spun up. you know, to go
(20:39):
to deploy to the Northeastern region to work, to work
ground zero. My friends were at ground zero and they
did multiple tours there in that, in that brief period
of time. I had one friend in particular that was
there and she, she came back and was never the same.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:04):
Because the volume of what she was bearing witness to and,
you know, people are not meant to see those sorts
of things. Well, people that prattle on and on on
the Internet, they don't have that sense about them relative
to the reality of what you're seeing before you, the
end of life and what happens in death with these remains, which,
(21:25):
by the way, we still have, I think, over in
excess of a thousand remains that have not been positively
identified from ground zero. 1,100.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
I just watched a video on that just this morning
about finding bone fragments on different building tops years after
and just the magnitude of what that took place and
how intense that was for people, the vastness of carnage
that it was, right?
Speaker 3 (21:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:56):
People can't appreciate that when those buildings collapsed. And went down,
you know, because people forget that there's a structure below ground.
You know, there's a subway station that's down there. And
so I always describe it to my students because I
talk about mass fatality investigations. And I talk about a
multi-tiered wedding cake kind of collapsing in on its side
(22:19):
over a three-foot deep hole. And so, you know, put
that in perspective. And then all of the debris, everything
that they're pulling out of there. that had to be
taken to a separate location. And then, you know, I,
I have friends from other offices and other places where
they're actually out there looking at this debris, if you
(22:40):
can imagine this, and they're having to pick out bits
that are there and you don't know where it's very disorienting.
And so that, that's one of the reasons that we
still have remains because some, some of the remains were
just so degraded, you know, by the, by the point
that they got there, there was nothing left to really test.
(23:02):
And so a lot of the IDs that we have
are what we refer to as presumptive IDs. We know
that they were supposed to be there. We know that
they did not come home. And now enough time has elapsed.
I say we, I didn't have anything to do with
my friends. Now that enough time has elapsed, we're going
to declare this person more than likely died there. And
(23:25):
so the families don't have you know, really anything to
hang their hats on.
Speaker 4 (23:29):
And, you know, at.
Speaker 1 (23:32):
The end of the day, whether it's 9-11 or whether,
you know, it's a case, you know, that doesn't get
the fanfare that 9-11 got, you're still talking about real
people that are gone and will never walk back across
(23:53):
the the threshold of the front door again. They'll never
embrace their family again. There's always going to be an
empty chair at Thanksgiving, and they're completely absent that.
Speaker 4 (24:04):
And it.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
Is at a point now where those deaths are entertainment,
is what it comes down to.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
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(24:36):
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Speaker 3 (24:52):
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Speaker 2 (24:55):
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Speaker 3 (25:02):
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Speaker 2 (25:06):
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think the Tiger Stripe Camo definitely reels me in. The
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Speaker 3 (25:20):
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Speaker 3 (25:33):
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Speaker 2 (25:37):
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Speaker 3 (25:48):
It's amazing that, you know, that that's what it is, right?
Speaker 2 (25:52):
I mean, on my feed, I'll get, I don't know,
10 videos a days of young Russian or Ukrainian boys
being vaporized or blown up by drone strikes. And They
put heavy metal music on it to make it entertaining, right? Or,
you know, I'm watching whatever's going on, you know, in
(26:13):
the Middle East or Iran or the Gulf States or
wherever it is, right? You're right. It has lost that
sensation of what you talk about with your family, the
collective dressing of the body, the intimacy of the process, right?
or being out there, I can't, can only imagine being
(26:33):
like a young boy standing around your uncles and grand pappy.
And like, they're sitting there and they're, they're pulling off
moonshot and they're digging and coming in like, boy, get
over here and get your back into this. And it's like,
you know, you feel the pain on your fingertips and
then you, you know, you go in to get a
drink of milk and you see the body in your,
(26:54):
in your kitchen or whatever. Like there's a, there's a,
you can't, you can't, you can't distill that down to, uh,
what the, the, a transaction and a sensory transaction, like, like, uh,
some video game or a movie or whatever. And, and
that's what we've been remarkably able to do is this
(27:16):
culture of death that exists in your world and my world,
first responders, whatever it is, right. That it's, And it's
the inevitability of that, that, that, uh, what the, the, the, the, the, it's,
you can taste it. You can feel it. You can
(27:37):
smell it. You smell it.
Speaker 4 (27:40):
Right.
Speaker 2 (27:40):
Versus, you know, oh, there's one, there's another, there's a
guy getting kicked in the head. Oh, there's a guy,
you know, there's a bad accident, all.
Speaker 3 (27:47):
That, right. Whatever.
Speaker 2 (27:50):
But then it goes even a step further. And it's interesting.
I'm not sure if I asked you this, but do
you ever read Dave Grossman's book on killing?
Speaker 4 (27:59):
No, I haven't.
Speaker 3 (28:00):
Yeah, I recommend it. It's a book that they have
us read in the teams.
Speaker 2 (28:05):
Dave went to West Point, was Ranger qualified, never went
to combat, but became a teacher and taught.
Speaker 3 (28:14):
At West Point.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
And he really came out to realize there's all this
great education on leadership or strategy or whatever, but there
was no fundamental, uh, literature on killing itself and what
it meant. So he goes back and he interviews, I
don't know, like 5,000 or some, some humongous number of
(28:38):
men that have killed people in combat, what the sensation was,
what it was feeling, the whole thing. writes this book
and comes up with a phrase called killology. So the
science of killing and how it affects, which was just
earth shattering to me when I first read this as
a young operator. And then he followed up that book
(29:00):
with a book called On Combat, where he did a
similar thing with police officers and first responders getting in
shoots and the difference there. And the whole pretense is
that as a society in these warrior classes or in
the class where death, the cult, the culture of death is,
is relevant to the execution of your task, right? We
(29:23):
were looking at it in the wrong way because we were,
we were distilling down that, that sense of empathy that
you talked about with your family, right? Or what you've
witnessed with that, that the woman or the husband or
the mother tearing their hair out and screaming right we
we've lost that and now it's even more and so
(29:47):
it's like you know these conversations about death uh are
not penetrating through the entertainment factor they're not and and
like I mean, you, you are probably what a top
three or four people in America, probably in the world
(30:08):
that are having these conversations about the next level, like the,
the scientific perspective, which, and I think, and I want
you to explain to me when you're giving these talks
or you're on these shows, is there something in you
that is going to, is hopeful will emerge that, through
(30:31):
the the scientific deliberation that emotional state will come into
play because man every time i talk to you like
it's been the best discussions of death i think i've
ever had like that first one we had was i
hadn't had anything like that in my life and i've
been talking about death for a long time now and
and do you feel like that's part of your objective
(30:52):
when you're in these discussions that it will provoke that
deeper level introspection.
Speaker 1 (30:58):
Yeah and Part of me does, right? And here's why.
I work really hard to be the voice of, and it's, again,
one of those statements that's kind of wrote that you
hear a lot in our field. We speak for those
that can no longer speak for themselves, right? And so
I try to remain, and I hate the term mindful,
(31:21):
I try to remain spiritually connected through my own faith
where I'm thinking, You know, I've got literally God is
watching what I'm saying and what I'm doing. And am
I showing honor to those that that have passed on?
(31:45):
And also, am I showing respect to those that are grieving?
Because there is and let's just go ahead and I
want to disabuse anybody from this. I always try to
emphasize this term. I hate this freaking term closure. I've
always hated it because it ain't real. It's an academic
word and it's a disrespectful word to those that are
(32:08):
going through grief. Those that have been in the field,
whether it's combat or in my world where you see
carnage all over the place, there ain't no closure to that.
You'll have closure someday and you'll move on. So These
people that we're talking about that are, in fact, real
(32:30):
people that have experienced real trauma and real horror. And
I mean horror in a way that most of us
cannot even appreciate. And I've been around thousands of dead
bodies and thousands of deaths, but I can't appreciate the
horror that welled up within that soul that I'm conveying
(32:51):
a message to or I'm trying to explain something to.
Speaker 4 (32:54):
So back to your question. point. I'm sorry, I was
kind of chasing rabbits. No, I love when you chase
those rabbits.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
But it's when, you know, when I do go on,
I try to put myself in that position. You know,
can I say something here that would connect with humanity
of what has been lost? And I'll go into graphic
detail when I explain. And it's not that, look, I
(33:20):
can sit around and talk about all the graphic stuff
you want to. I got, you know, I got Files
and files of it.
Speaker 4 (33:26):
All right. How much do you need?
Speaker 2 (33:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (33:30):
How much do you need?
Speaker 1 (33:31):
And, you know, how far, you know, at what point
have you enriched yourself enough on the pain of people
to the point where you're no longer trying to understand
how a case actually played out or how a case worked?
Now you want to take it up another notch. And
(33:51):
that's what's so scary to me. because can I give
you kind of a little insight?
Speaker 3 (33:58):
Please, please.
Speaker 1 (34:00):
There's a troubling trend that I have seen over the
cases that I have covered in the news media and
have covered on my podcast. And it involves dismemberment. And
(34:20):
the reason this is disturbing to me And again, I
haven't done a scientific study. However, it seems to me
that we have been in a phase where there are
more cases that are coming across my desk that I
(34:41):
do analysis on where it has not just been enough
for perpetrators to kill people. Now we're into a realm
of where I'm seeing more and more cases of individuals
that are dismemberment, dismembering, conducting dismemberment.
Speaker 3 (35:02):
The mutilation of their victim, right?
Speaker 2 (35:06):
Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:07):
And many times it serves no purpose because you've got
those that have a certain psychopathy with them. You know,
if you go back and you look at, you know,
there are certain serial killers that have that tendency that'll
do that, right? But now, you know, you've got groups
of people out there that are not committing serialized cases,
(35:30):
but they're killing people, and then they're going one step beyond,
and they're doing decapitations, dismemberment of, you know, the axilla,
you know, just on and on and on. And most
of the time, they'll get halfway through it, and they
don't really realize what they're getting into, you know, once
they're into the middle of it, and then they're trying
(35:51):
to dispose of the remains of it. Many times you'll
have people that actually have utility for what they want
to do. Let me parse out this body to the
point where I can make it easy to transport and
dispose of.
Speaker 2 (36:03):
Right.
Speaker 1 (36:05):
But there has been like for me, at least in
the media. And so I don't know if that's like
a kind of a warning shot over the bow that now,
you know.
Speaker 4 (36:14):
You are at the Rubicon.
Speaker 1 (36:15):
I feel like we cross Rubicon, but it's kind of
a further disrespect to.
Speaker 4 (36:23):
Of the humanity of an individual.
Speaker 2 (36:25):
Well, for me, the fact that you're bringing that I've
noticed this since the cartel wars were raging in early
2000s From, you know, 08, 09, 2012 Like from 2009
to 2011 or whatever it was Down in Jalisco, right?
Speaker 3 (36:44):
We had a lot of movies The.
Speaker 2 (36:47):
Sicario movies are a representation of that Where cartel members
are just blatantly butchering bodies, hanging them from bridges. And
it's almost like you go back to those ancient times
of mutilation and domination and what it was. And then
you're like, oh, wow, that's– all right. But it's a cartel.
But it's a cartel. And what we also– with the
(37:09):
serial killing. But then all of a sudden, I'm watching
a movie like Snatch. And the famous scene with Bricktop.
And he goes, if you wanted to get rid of
a body, you need pigs, right? Always beware of the
pig farmer. And people loved this whole thing of this
unique monologue of destroying, getting rid of a body. And
(37:30):
then all of a sudden, and I just rewatched it recently,
I watched Breaking Bad. And one of the defining character
traits is how they get rid of bodies through this
whole thing. Yeah. And again, it was affiliated with cartel
or whatever. But like you said, now you're seeing it.
We're seeing it with crimes of passion or reactions or whatever. Obviously,
(37:52):
we're seeing a butchery overseas in Europe with the stabbings
and the people.
Speaker 4 (37:59):
Acid attacks.
Speaker 2 (38:00):
The acid attacks and all this. And like you're right, man.
I think the Rubicon is being crossed now. I think
it's a component in my mind, and I'd love to
hear where you think it's coming from. I think it's
a derivative of like you, we were discussing the, the,
the muting through the entertainment circumstances, right? We need to
(38:23):
be more extreme, more extreme. And, and, and that's why
people will watch, especially with 15,000 streaming platforms. If I
create the movie where this butchery is in there, that
I'll guarantee me whatever. We just saw it with, um,
With the show about– with the disgraced actor who had the–
(38:44):
but it was– he was in Europe and he goes
over and he's the vigilante. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (38:49):
Yeah, you remember I'm talking– Armie Hammer was in it.
Armie Hammer.
Speaker 2 (38:52):
Yeah, and Elon Musk reposted it and then it blew
up in like some– like 200 million views on X,
this movie. you know, and I'm like, wait, wasn't that
the guy who talked about cannibalism, cannibalism, sexualized cannibalism and
his stuff.
Speaker 3 (39:08):
And now he's in this.
Speaker 2 (39:09):
Movie, you know, uh, killing immigrants and, you know, and
I'm like, what the hell is going on? And then
we're seeing it in real time in the way people
are slaughtering each other. Why do you think it's taking place? Like,
and I know that's a massive question, right? It's got
(39:30):
biblical connotations it's got historical cultural connotation but there's like
you said i feel it too you feel it i
think those of us who've lived within a culture of
death are it's it's obvious right and then you there's
that other component where you see a lot of people
saying we're at in the spiritual war as well too
so they're adding that yeah in that frame so why
(39:53):
do you think this is taking place.
Speaker 1 (39:55):
It's desensitization i think to a great degree but i
think one of the warning signs when the clancy case
is not the first one with dead kids all right
and this is this is growing to Regularly, we see people,
and all you got to do, if you look at
your newsfeed, there's always some group of people, this thing
(40:18):
that happened, for instance, in Ohio with all of those
kids living in squalor up there. And if you think
that that's the only case like that, you need to
open your eyes because there are other cases like that.
And it's the humans individually are devalued. And when you
get to the point where you can devalue a child,
(40:41):
It's one thing, you know, and look, man, I started
out when dinosaurs roamed the earth. I look back at it,
you know, in the early mid-80s, you know, and I
came up as a death investigator during that period of
time when drive-bys were first starting and the crack wars
were going on. And when you've got grown individuals that
(41:04):
are shooting one another, it's a lot easier, I think,
as a death investigator where I can go and, you know,
kind of rationalize this and work my way through it.
But nowadays, you know, the death investigators that are out
there and they're seeing, you know, maybe more abuse-related deaths
and deaths where, you know, children are involved, they're being
(41:24):
starved to death, neglected, or where, you know, kids are
just an inconvenience, you know. That's a sign, you know,
it's a sign to me. Also, that plays into the
way the elderly are treated as well. And you see
those cases. Talking about dismemberment, it's like a covert case.
(41:46):
I don't know if it's been a year, year and
a half. This was out of Maryland where a daughter
and her daughter took grandma, killed grandma, and then tried
to render her, after they had partially dismembered her body,
tried to render her body down on the gas grill
in the backyard. And, you know, where do you even
begin to Be able to do the arithmetic on that,
(42:09):
you know, to try to understand it. Now, I can
explain science to you, you know, and we can talk
about the dynamics of the tool marks that are left
behind on the surfaces of the bone. What type of
instrument was used? How long had she been dead? the exposure,
what level of, you know, based upon the level of
tissue destruction, what level of heat was the body subjected to,
(42:31):
you know, all of those sorts of things. You know,
I can talk about that, but at the end of
the day, when you draw it back in and you're
sitting there in the dark at home, you know, and,
you know, you're reflecting on all of this, it's hard
to take the measure of it, you know, and, and,
You see these things now a lot. And that was
(42:55):
one of the big indicators for me because, you know, look,
I'm an outlier. when it comes to the rest of
the human race, because of the things I've seen, I
know that my world, my worldview is not in any
way normal.
Speaker 4 (43:08):
All right.
Speaker 1 (43:09):
And I always have to, always have to brace myself
relative to that and understand that I'm a weirdo. I'm
a weirdo in the sense that most people that are
going to a cocktail party are going to go hang out,
you know, and, you know, gee, what do you do
for a living?
Speaker 4 (43:23):
What have you been talking about this week?
Speaker 1 (43:24):
You know, I've, I've been trying to be the best
salesman that I can, you know, I'm not going to
fit real, I'm not going to fit well into the conversation.
Speaker 2 (43:32):
Right.
Speaker 3 (43:33):
And except I know, I know the feeling, except if.
Speaker 4 (43:36):
It's right, you are, except if it's for the purposes
of entertainment.
Speaker 3 (43:42):
Oh, interesting.
Speaker 2 (43:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:44):
And so, and I, that's something that, so I can't
blame it all on the period of time that we're
in now, but, And, you know, I know that probably
when you would rotate back home and any of your colleagues,
you know, if you go out to a party and
(44:06):
you're with regular civilian types and, you know, and they
find out what you do or did for a living,
you know, for us, it's always, well, you know, what's the.
Speaker 4 (44:19):
Worst thing you've ever seen?
Speaker 3 (44:21):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4 (44:23):
You can't handle my worst. You can't.
Speaker 1 (44:28):
You cannot handle my worst. And I don't understand why
you're asking me this question. Because if I am human
and you ask me what's the worst thing you've ever seen,
that's like saying, wow, tell me about your divorce.
Speaker 4 (44:43):
What was that like? Yeah, 100%. And so people will
ask you those questions. And so that's always....
Speaker 1 (44:52):
You know, that's always been– I think that's part of
human nature because people love to hear– they love to
hear tales. They love to tell stories. They love to
hear stories. And they want to brush up against it
just enough.
Speaker 4 (45:06):
Yes. But they don't want to get none of it
on them.
Speaker 1 (45:08):
All right? And they don't want to be– they don't
actually want to go to the morgue with a bloated,
maggot-infested body, but they want to know what it's like.
They don't want to go to Coronado with a mask
filled with water. and having to do all of that
stuff that you guys have to do, they want to
hear about it. They don't want to do it. And
(45:32):
I'm being very polite to you with that in the
sense that that's part of the training, but the stuff
that you saw in country. That's right. It's the same
thing for us. I went through all of the training
that I could go through to try to spin myself
up to the point where I could do this at
this pace for a 20-year period. But even after that
(45:56):
period of time, you never see everything. And that's why
I always tell my students, if there's ever someone in
forensics that comes up to you and says, well, I've seen.
Speaker 2 (46:07):
It all, run.
Speaker 1 (46:09):
Don't walk away from them. Run, because there's no way
that you've ever seen it all. That's an empirical impossibility.
Speaker 4 (46:16):
But now....
Speaker 1 (46:19):
But for me, in present context, it's the idea that
it seems as though that the pace has quickened. The
pace has quickened from my perspective now, taking this kind
of higher altitude view of it from the newsy side.
(46:41):
From the podcast side, seeing these cases and the intensity
of the lack of kind of compassion, I think, that's
out there because it's all very salacious. And we've got a,
I think that we've got a real, we're in the
midst of a major spiritual battle with all of this.
Speaker 4 (47:04):
To me, to me, we are at least.
Speaker 3 (47:06):
No, I 100% agree.
Speaker 2 (47:08):
You know, when you can have, you know, I mean,
there's certain groups within our society that, where the expectation of,
of what that, that hardened perspective, like if you grew
up in the inner city and you, you know, you
watched your dad get killed at four years old, or
(47:29):
you're on the street and it's eye for an eye
and it's like selling drug, like, it's like, okay, well
then of course they're going to be it. But now
all of a sudden you're seeing, you know, The 15-year-old
kid who's playing– what is the video game where the
GT8 or whatever just came out and now like the
(47:52):
animation or the AI of how you murder somebody is
such an intimate part of the game. And this goes
back to some of what Dave Grossman does when he
travels around the country and speaking to police officers and whomever.
is like, Hey, there is a desensitization that will have
a profound impact dependent upon the level of exposure. And
(48:16):
then also the underlying component of whatever moral framework that
person is holding themselves accountable to.
Speaker 3 (48:24):
And, and I, I, you.
Speaker 2 (48:26):
See it like you see, you know, whether it's, it's the,
the sites that are all about showing street fights.
Speaker 3 (48:35):
And people getting cold cocked or getting knocked out.
Speaker 2 (48:37):
I mean, Chuck Lidell has a whole thing he does
that's blown up where he sits with some guy and
they interview one of these street fights.
Speaker 3 (48:45):
And he's like, well, that was the dumbest thing. I
wouldn't have done that. And like, it's got millions of
views on these things, you know?
Speaker 2 (48:50):
And, but there's this fascination, like you said, to rub
up next to it, to get so close to it
that they, they feel like you, you can, what you
can osmolotically gain an appreciation for it. But what I'm seeing,
like what you're saying and that spiritual devolvement, like you
get near it, but like the part that's most supposed
(49:14):
to make you go, oh, wow, that's really horrible and
tragic for both people and for their families.
Speaker 3 (49:20):
Members and for all this.
Speaker 2 (49:21):
And like, that has been muted to such a profound
degree that like, okay, well, I mean, what's the next
evolution then is where, you know, and, and, you know,
obviously you have a lot of people like we're on
the brink of civil war, we're on the brink of
world war three. And, you know, and, and to a
(49:44):
certain degree, there's a component that you can make a
good argument for those ideas, but like the people that
are advocating for it. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (49:51):
It's almost like, and this is the thing about it. Uh,
they're begging for it.
Speaker 2 (49:55):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (49:56):
It almost, it has that, it has that feeling. And, um, Uh,
when I hear comments like that, and they, again, coming
from my little perspective of, of a death investigator, um,
you might think you want carnage or you might think
(50:17):
that that's going to be the solution, but let me
take you back in time. Let's, you know, let me
show you, you know, and I can't, I mean, there's
no way I can, you know, Let's let me take
you to a house where eight people have all been
murdered systematically. And, you know, and you're slipping as an
investigator in the blood that you're you're there. You're bearing
(50:38):
witness to it and you're seeing what is left behind
and all of the carnage. Is that what you want?
You know, is this is this really what you want?
You know, at this end. People have a real disconnect,
I think, from that. First off, they've never been connected
to it to begin with, and so it's just like
(51:00):
another mile marker along the road of life where they
just kind of pass it by, and they don't realize
what the reality of it is. There's things that would
impact them to the point where they— you know, they
would not want to see or do. It's like, I don't,
I don't go home. Like Kimmy and I don't, it's
(51:21):
not like, it's not like we sit around and, you know,
I watch shows about death investigation, you know, every day.
The height, the height of my, I live vicariously through
House Hunters International, you know, so, you know, we'll sit
there and that's, or I watch, I watch something relative
(51:42):
to history. I don't, You know, I don't engage with
it because I talk about it so much. And look,
somebody's going to talk about it. I want to try
as best I can to be the reasonable person in
the room relative to it and, you know, to talk
about those things that I see. But we have an
(52:03):
appetite for it. And it's– I don't– I guess we've
always had an appetite for it.
Speaker 3 (52:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (52:11):
I always make the comparison, you know, with true crime
in particular that, you know, we've, even when we were kids,
if there was a campfire, somebody would want to sit
around and tell ghost stories, right? Or they would want
to tell about some horrible event that happened in a community.
And that's always been, that's part of who we are.
I think you could probably go back to our ancestors
(52:33):
that maybe were sitting around a campfire somewhere at some
point in time and they're telling these stories. Either maybe
they're telling a story to learn from or they're telling
a story to scare their kids with or.
Speaker 3 (52:42):
Whatever the case might be. Well, I mean, you think
about it.
Speaker 2 (52:45):
I mean, obviously, it's pretty apparent that the campfire has
been the conduit for lessons that we learned through the–
the infinite evaluation of iterable behaviors, right?
Speaker 3 (52:59):
Like that's where it started.
Speaker 2 (53:01):
And then somewhere along the line was like, hey, let's
slap that up on the wall of the cave, right?
And then it's like, I'm going to jam it into
some of these bizarre little hieroglyphics and that'll be the
record of death in life, right? Even you go back
and you look at like the founding creation myth of
ancient Syria, like what is called the Inu Elish or
(53:23):
whatever it is, And it's this battle of gods, right?
Speaker 3 (53:27):
And it's the, the, the death of some gods.
Speaker 2 (53:30):
You know, versus the, the immersion of a singular God
and whatever his name from Madonna or whatever his name was.
But like, like it's been such an integrated component of
how we generate the appropriate moral structures or metaphors that
the archetypical stories are a derivative of the finality of
(53:51):
our own existence or the, the, the, the, the, the,
the perpetuation.
Speaker 3 (53:57):
Of, and prevalence of violence, right.
Speaker 2 (54:00):
As a distinguishing character trait of our species and our
ability to dominate or control. And so, you know, that's there,
but it seems like, you know, post 20th century with,
I mean, what is it? 200, maybe 250 million human
beings in a single century, more than all other centuries combined,
(54:22):
all combined, even with Genghis Khan, right. And the 40
million plus he potentially killed you have it. We destroyed
that because why we became so detached from the, the,
the level of technological ability and then the unrestricted justification
(54:43):
of mass carnage, right?
Speaker 4 (54:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (54:47):
And I think about that and you were talking about
those kids that are, you know, all entrenched over, you know,
in the Ukraine. They've been banging away at each other
all this period of time. And I've seen those videos,
you know, and of course, I'm, you know, my mind
automatically defers back to Or, you know, I go back
(55:12):
and I think, well, you know, what would that injury
assessment look like?
Speaker 2 (55:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (55:15):
And even in my scientific mind, I'm trying to assess it.
But the reality is, is that that kid's life ended
right then, probably for nothing, you know, at the end
of the day. And when you we have talking about
the level of carnage that we bear witness to. It has,
(55:38):
in fact, and I sound like such an old man
saying this, but I think that it's the reality. It
has been hyper-accelerated as a result of all of the media.
And you had mentioned it, everything that's available out there.
And we're just talking about, you know, you had mentioned streaming,
you know, streaming. But just, you know, the hidden little
bits of the Internet that are all over the place
(55:59):
in the world that we're out there.
Speaker 2 (56:01):
4chan, 8chan.
Speaker 4 (56:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (56:04):
Live leak back in the, I remember.
Speaker 2 (56:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (56:06):
Live leak. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (56:07):
I remember the.
Speaker 2 (56:08):
First time I paid attention to live leak is they
had the towel band. Someone had posted the video of
operation Red Wing and they had the, the fight and,
you know, and I, I put all those guys through
training and, and had a very, uh, very deep appreciation
for Danny Dietz, um, who was the radio operator on
that reconnaissance team because he was an artist.
Speaker 3 (56:31):
And he was a really talented kid.
Speaker 2 (56:33):
And I was just like, man, like this is a
really special guy. And when that came out and there's
video of them going through his kit with his body
on the ground and he's riddled with bullet holes, you know, like, and,
and that's that, that it's like, that's entertainment for them. And,
and then whether, and then for us, it's like, oh no, well.
Speaker 3 (56:56):
Or it's, it's entertainment for us.
Speaker 2 (56:58):
Even you look at some podcasters and their opening will,
you know, show them, you know, firing at whatever, blowing
something up or what, you know, like in their careers or,
you know, and, and I, it's like, man, the further
we get away from like the, the reality of this
(57:21):
carnage and what it does to you intimately is Should
you give yourself the unfortunate opportunity to process it where
it should and should be processed, especially if you even
remotely advocate or present yourself as spiritual.
Speaker 3 (57:40):
In any way, shape, or form.
Speaker 2 (57:42):
I'm a Christian, and so I'm devoted, one, to God
above all others, treating my neighbor better as I treat myself.
But then also having the compassion of the tired, the sick,
the lame, the oppressed, the people who suffered from war
on both sides no matter what. And so– and I
(58:04):
just was– I gave a presentation today which I talked
about maximizing performance thresholds in the last slide. I show
a juxtaposition of me and my, my only combat deployment
in the team is my first trip to Afghanistan versus, uh, me, uh, uh,
getting ready to perform a wedding ceremony just two years
ago to my, my wife's youngest brother. And, and I,
(58:27):
and I forced people, I say, see this person right here,
this person has hate in his heart, right? This person,
cause I conjured up this hate thinking that this was
going to be the avenue for me to do my
job better. Plus, I was pretty pissed after 9-11. And
then the photo is actually taken at Tarnak Farms, which
is where bin Laden's headquarters were. And I'm standing about
(58:49):
a couple hundred meters away from where a good friend
of mine, Matt Bourgeois, was blown up. And so the
combination of that whole confluence of– like I really had
to hate. Like I didn't matter. I didn't care. I'm just–
like I'm there to seek vengeance, right? A biblical-style vengeance.
And that– killed me for the next three and a
(59:12):
half years until i realized and if i don't change
this i'm gonna be dead right and there are multiple
times where i considered you know ending it and then
it was through a mentor of mine who was a
reverend at my high school i'd gone to and i
went to church for the first time and And I,
and he's like, and someone, two friends had asked me
(59:33):
to marry them. My first one, meanwhile, we're in the
bar and my motorcycle's in the middle of the bar.
Speaker 3 (59:39):
I'm, I'm, I'm out of control. And they like, Hey,
would you marry us? And I'm like, yeah, it'll be great.
Speaker 2 (59:46):
And then the next day I sober up and I'm like, dude,
I should, I'm, I am in no place or position
to bring forth, you know, God in this, you know,
and it ended up being this, you know, black tie
affair at the, at, at, at, uh, the big, uh,
hotel up in Palm beach on the Island.
Speaker 3 (01:00:05):
And, you know, and, and, and, you know, and these,
you know, just, and I'm like, I can't do this.
Speaker 2 (01:00:10):
So I went to church and I, I asked this
Reverend and I, cause I was really struggling. I go,
I don't know what to do. I don't know where
to start. And he goes, start at the beginning, start
with the word, right? And, and in those lessons, it
was really about discovering, rediscovering the sense of empathy for
other people. And, and, and that became the thing that
(01:00:33):
opened this door for me to emerge back to a
place where I really wanted to help people, right. With
whatever it is I was doing with kids or whatever.
And that became the thing that saved me. And so
it's like now I'm sitting here and I'm in this
space and I'm watching– I don't know if you can
(01:00:56):
say it's a collect, but it's many, many, many, many,
many individuals, like millions of people that are allowing– themselves
to be entertained by the destruction of other souls and
so when i see you step into that arena which
is a very very cutthroat arena like and i see
(01:01:20):
you present with this calmness this rationalization this uh sophistication
but also this underlying concurrence of Hey, you know, think
about placing yourself in the shoes of those people that
were dramatically affected or impacted by this to garner some
of that or promote or to ignite some of that
(01:01:42):
higher order empathy. Man, it's just like I commend you
and I couldn't commend you enough.
Speaker 4 (01:01:49):
Well, thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:01:49):
And one of the things I always return back to
anytime I'm talking about things, I do have still have
the ability. even after all the therapy and everything that
I went through for my journey with PTSD, the words
that I've written, all the stuff, you know, over the years,
(01:02:11):
I have the ability to reflect upon this and think
that this is not happening to me. This is happening
to them. And I have to do the best that
I can to kind of present this in a way
because I cannot identify, like Erica Kirk, there's no way
(01:02:33):
that I can identify with what that woman has gone through.
Speaker 3 (01:02:37):
Period.
Speaker 4 (01:02:37):
End of paragraph.
Speaker 1 (01:02:41):
You know, I can't imagine, you know, Charlie's family members,
you know, his mama and his daddy. You know, I can't,
you know, I can't imagine that. All I can do
is talk about the science of it, and try to
be reasonable and be a reasonable voice in amongst all
of this craziness and this static that is constantly surrounding
(01:03:03):
us nowadays. Because it's intense. It is intense. And there
is no definitive answer that we can say, well, because
it's like spitting in the ocean to raise the water level.
It ain't going to do too much damn good. And
it's the world that we're in right now.
Speaker 2 (01:03:20):
Well, let me interrupt you on that. Spitting in the
ocean does cause a reverberation. It does cause a ripple. Right.
And if, if, if you're one ripple can, can impact
one person, then, then it's, it's worth it.
Speaker 3 (01:03:34):
I think. Wow.
Speaker 4 (01:03:37):
There you said it.
Speaker 2 (01:03:39):
Doc, I just, man, I, one, I just, I'm, I'm
really grateful that you're out there and you're doing this
and you're bringing that rationalization. You're bringing that, that, um, uh, the,
what is it? It's, it's, it's almost like you're, you're
becoming a mediator and it's really, it's really unique that
(01:04:01):
as a person that it's been, uh, you know, so
utterly immersed in the most horrific aspect of our existence,
like through you, that light can shine, which is, you know,
I think God always picks the, you know, the person that,
you least expect that's going to have the greatest impact.
Speaker 4 (01:04:20):
I would be the least among us. I would be.
Speaker 2 (01:04:24):
I would be. I hope you keep it up. I
just know Jordy and I are praying for you and
a lot of other people. And just thank you once
again for coming on and having this level conversation with us.
Speaker 4 (01:04:37):
You bet, brother. Thank you. God bless you.
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