September 4, 2026 • 36 mins
Hour 3 of the Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show remained focused almost entirely on the ongoing Lindsay Clancy murder trial, the reported jury deadlock, and the dramatic legal developments that ultimately resulted in an official mistrial. Clay and Buck opened the hour by recapping the extraordinary events unfolding in Massachusetts, including the defense team's emergency effort to persuade the Massachusetts Supreme Court to intervene and remove a lone holdout juror. The hosts discussed reports indicating that 11 jurors were prepared to find Clancy not guilty by reason of insanity while one juror refused to join the majority, setting the stage for what became the dominant topic throughout the final hour of the program.
A major portion of Hour 3 featured an extensive interview with attorney and commentator Katie Zacharia, who joined the show to discuss the legal, cultural, and societal implications of the case. Drawing on both her legal background and her experience as a mother of four, Zacharia argued that the central legal question involves criminal responsibility, capacity, and the role of psychiatric medications, while emphasizing that Clancy was responsible for the deaths of her three children. The conversation explored the public movement supporting Clancy, the debate surrounding postpartum mental illness, and concerns that excusing criminal acts based on hormonal or psychological factors could undermine broader arguments about women's responsibility, leadership, and accountability.
Clay, Buck, and Zacharia also examined the growing role of social media, online activism, and viral narratives in shaping public perceptions of criminal justice cases. They discussed how the case has generated intense engagement among mothers, legal observers, and advocacy groups, while debating whether widespread online discussion has distorted understanding of the legal issues surrounding insanity defenses, mental health treatment, and parental responsibility. The hosts repeatedly returned to questions of individual accountability, arguing that the deaths of Clancy's children should remain the central focus of the public conversation.
As the hour progressed, the show provided live updates from the Massachusetts courtroom. Clay and Buck monitored developments as the judge and attorneys discussed next steps following the deadlocked jury. The hosts analyzed the legal implications of a retrial, debated the significance of the lone holdout juror's refusal to change his vote, and argued that jury independence is a critical safeguard within the American justice system. Buck praised the juror's willingness to stand apart from the majority, while Clay highlighted the pressure and scrutiny the juror likely faced throughout deliberations.
The biggest breaking news of Hour 3 came when the judge formally declared a mistrial in the Lindsay Clancy case, ending efforts to secure a verdict from the divided jury. Clay and Buck immediately reacted to the ruling, discussing what it means for future proceedings and predicting that prosecutors would likely move toward a second trial. They criticized the defense's attempt to have the juror removed and argued that allowing higher courts to disqualify jurors based solely on disagreement over a verdict would undermine the integrity of the jury system.
The hosts also fielded listener feedback and discussed reactions from women who disagreed with their analysis of postpartum mental illness and gender-based arguments in the case. This led to a broader conversation about criminal responsibility, mental health defenses, PTSD comparisons, insanity pleas, and whether legal standards should differ based on gender or personal circumstances. Clay argued that accountability for crimes involving children should be absolute, while Buck discussed historical examples and other criminal cases involving mental health defenses to illustrate his concerns about expanding insanity-based legal arguments.
Another recurring theme throughout Hour 3 was the distinction between experiencing mental health challenges and committing criminal acts. The hosts debated whether sympathy for individuals struggling with postpartum depression or postpartum psychosis should affect determinations of criminal guilt, while emphasizing the difference between difficult emotional experiences and violent actions resulting in loss of life. Listener calls and emails further fueled these discussions, making the final hour one of the show's most emotionally charged segments.
By the end of the program, Clay and Buck reflected on the mistrial outcome, the likelihood of a retrial, and the broader societal questions raised by the case. They concluded by emphasizing themes of personal responsibility, truth, courage, and the importance of individuals standing by their convictions even when facing overwhelming opposition. The hosts pointed specifically to the lone ho
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome back in, Clay and Buck. Appreciate all of you
hanging out with us. We are rolling through the Friday
edition of the program. We are waiting to see if
the Lindsay Clancy trial is going to be updated in
any way. If you are just getting in your car
(00:20):
right now and catching up with everything that is going on,
we have got... Really, Lindsey Clancy, all talk. It has
taken over. Earlier today, the jury was.
And there was a mistrial that was declared that was
(00:41):
then held in abeyance to allow a last second appeal
to the Massachusetts Supreme Court to try to get a
juror kicked off the trial. And now we are, according
to the headlines that I am seeing, the Massachusetts Supreme
Court is weighing the emergency request that has been filed
(01:02):
by the defense to get this lone juror kicked off
of the trial. So that is where we are. There
appear to be 11 votes to find Lindsay Clancy not guilty.
Only one who it appears is one of the three
men on the trial that is willing to say, no,
(01:22):
she is in fact guilty. And so we are waiting
to see what is going to be the result of
this trial. Okay, I believe we are joined now by
Katie Zachariah. She is with us right now. Katie, you
are a mom of four. I want to read you
(01:43):
what I tweeted earlier because I'm quoting her. My wife, Laura,
a mom of three, she's furious with the Lindsay Clancy case.
She was talking about it with me this morning. She
said it's the worst thing possible for women because if
women are so hormonal, They can't keep from killing their
own kids. How can women argue they deserve any positions
(02:06):
of high responsibility? She says it's anti-woman to favor not guilty.
And she also has been saying no man is ever
able to cite his own hormones as justification for committing
a murder. And no one would even take it seriously
if men tried to do it. You are a mom
(02:27):
of four. As I just said, do you agree with
her take? What is your take on this?
Speaker 3 (02:34):
Yeah. You know, when we.
Speaker 4 (02:35):
First started talking about Lindsay Clancy, I was under the
incorrect assumption.
Speaker 3 (02:41):
This is months ago that we all knew she was
guilty of killing her children. And it was a discussion,
a legal discussion.
Speaker 4 (02:47):
I'm also a lawyer as to whether or not the
prosecution could prove beyond a reasonable doubt that.
Speaker 3 (02:53):
That Lindsay Clancy had the capacity, right?
Speaker 4 (02:55):
So that only looks at murder one, murder two, and manslaughter.
This is not, she didn't do it. And to see
this hyper focus on these pink shirt women that are rallying,
not just saying Lindsay Clancy didn't do it, but the
husband may have done it. And this kind of hyperbolic
and almost insane presence of the toxic feminism is to
(03:19):
what you were just discussing is to the point That
so much of the time, if a woman is engaging
in this type of discussion, you cannot be taken seriously.
A serious discussion is capacity and whether or not the
13 psychiatric drugs and their contraindications diluted her ability to
understand or appreciate the wrongfulness of her conduct, which is
(03:41):
that she murdered three of her children, that she killed
three children. Look, Clay, she sent her husband out. on
an errand and she intentionally took those three children down
to her basement and killed them. This is not up
for discussion and a society as a whole should be
treating this and Lindsay Clancy truly as she is not
the victim. She is the perpetrator and she destroyed three
(04:03):
lives for it. But again, to your point, women will
not be taken seriously if they start excusing every hormonal
or hormone or postpartum depression. It alleviates all responsibility from women,
which then makes them not serious candidates for.
Speaker 3 (04:20):
Positions, as you just said.
Speaker 5 (04:23):
So, Katie, appreciate you being with us. And we were
going to talk about the economy and things like that.
But because of the news today, we've got to get
you to weigh in on this. But as has been stated,
you are a mother of four. You are clearly a
woman and you are also a lawyer to the degree
that you can take us into the mindset of some
of the pink shirt wearing supporters here of Lindsay Clancy.
(04:46):
You're also a Californian. You come on a lot to
talk to us about what's going on with the Golden State.
I assume you have been exposed to, if not in
your immediate circle, women in your area, whether out protesting
or just from conversation, who are Lindsay Clancy supporters. supporters
what is going on there like what is it that
(05:07):
these women are think why has this turned into a
a case of a national solidarity from a lot of
women millions of them it seems who are are almost
fans of lindsey clancy or you know view it as
like some extension of their own problems in life what
i know it's very complicated it's a weird situation what
(05:30):
are they thinking Well, yeah, first.
Speaker 4 (05:32):
Book, the thing is that I've noticed, and it must
be said, is that this really hasn't gone down on
Republican or Democrat lines. I've had actually a lot of
women on the Republican, like conservative women, come out in
support of Lindsay Clancy.
Speaker 3 (05:49):
And even to my surprise, my.
Speaker 4 (05:51):
More liberal side of the equation has, at least from
my vantage point, have come out against Lindsay Clancy. So
it's not always and completely on partisan lines right now,
which I think is an even more interesting investigation that
needs to be looked at.
Speaker 3 (06:08):
What are these women watching? What are they looking into?
And what are they reading?
Speaker 4 (06:12):
And who's challenging their thought process? And from what I
have seen is most women are against exonerating Lindsay Clancy
because it will not allow for women to be taken
seriously on the greater scale, but also because if you
are a mother, you understand that this woman appreciated the
(06:33):
wrongfulness of her conduct and murdered her kids.
Speaker 3 (06:36):
And I have four kids. I had sleepless nights.
Speaker 4 (06:39):
I never thankfully had postpartum depression, postpartum psychosis.
Speaker 3 (06:43):
I had what many have said.
Speaker 4 (06:44):
Postpartum euphoria, but there are long sleepless nights. And to,
to give this woman an excuse for her behavior and,
will show other women that they can do whatever they
want with their children and, and they won't be held accountable.
And I think to, to end here, the problem with
our society right now is that we are finding reasons
(07:06):
to excuse a woman who killed her children. And, and
it's mostly women that are finding that a space to
excuse her, but there are some men that are coming
out in support of her and whether that juror 11 one,
where you have even two men that have gone, gone
over to the non-guilty court, There is there is something
happening in a society that says you can harm your
kids and not be held accountable. And that is what
(07:29):
we need to get at. We need to get at
the root of this really, really toxic ideology.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
I think that what you said is important because really
what it comes down to is individual responsibility. And it
feels like we are increasingly coming up with reasons why
people are not responsible. Here's my concern. When, unfortunately, we
see kids commit suicide in high school, for instance, oftentimes
(07:55):
there's an echo effect. When one kid commits suicide, unfortunately,
several others often do. The media attention, just, again, sort
of the reverberating impact of this. My concern is something
you just hit on there, Katie, which is other women
out there who might be struggling with see her and
(08:17):
see the way that she is being supported. And I
fear that it makes it more likely that we could
see an echo effect of this similar to what we
see with suicides where other young children are killed because
Lindsay Clancy is in the mind of so many moms
out there.
Speaker 3 (08:36):
Absolutely.
Speaker 4 (08:38):
If you look at this pattern on TikTok and I
will not repost it and I will barely even look
at it, but there are videos that are going viral.
of accidental deaths where they're holding a baby doll and
throwing them down the stairs or tripping. And it is,
as a parent, horrifying to even imagine pretending that you
(08:58):
would hurt your child or that you would hurt an
innocent life.
Speaker 3 (09:01):
Nonetheless, these people.
Speaker 4 (09:03):
Are getting viral retweets and feedback and moms are all
recording themselves crying. And it's It is a true online psychosis.
Speaker 3 (09:13):
This is not accidental.
Speaker 4 (09:15):
This is what happens when a society starts telling you
from the beginning that.
Speaker 3 (09:20):
Abortion is okay up until 41 weeks. That's late-term abortion.
Speaker 4 (09:24):
That child can survive outside of the womb.
Speaker 3 (09:26):
That just happened in Massachusetts.
Speaker 4 (09:28):
It's no mistake, in my opinion, that we are now facing,
you can kill your three children and we can.
Speaker 3 (09:34):
Exonerate that behavior.
Speaker 4 (09:36):
And then we're going to have viral videos of other
mothers Essentially, buffering that behavior and lightening it by making
a TikTok video to light music of their baby falling
down the stairs that they accidentally dropped. This type of
stuff has to be immediately called out and it has
to be completely disregarded in society as what it is.
Speaker 3 (09:59):
Is it's sick and toxic.
Speaker 4 (10:01):
And if enough women push against it and enough men
together with women push against it, I think people will
realize that they are on the fringe of society. But
what happens with social media is some little small part
of society puts these viral videos out and it makes
everyone think, that everyone's going through this, which a majority
of mothers, look, I have a lot of friends who
have four plus kids.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
Okay.
Speaker 4 (10:23):
I don't know anyone who went through this.
Speaker 3 (10:24):
So to think that this is some mainstream.
Speaker 4 (10:26):
Problem, it is, it is not a mainstream problem and
we need to treat it like the psychosis, toxic ideology, psychotic,
toxic ideology.
Speaker 3 (10:34):
That it is.
Speaker 5 (10:36):
So Katie, where do we go from here? What do
you think The response from those who see this for
what it is, how do you, I just, again, as
a mom of four and somebody who, I think very
importantly you pointed out, because this has been my experience too,
this is not a hard partisan separation. There's definitely a
(10:58):
hard gender separation overwhelmingly. There are some men maybe who
are more supportive of Lindsay Clancy, but overwhelmingly it is women.
It is not all left-wing women. There are, I have
experienced this, people, women who are right of center, how
do we get back to a society that would understand
(11:19):
unanimously that there's nothing worse than a situation where a
parent kills their own children and that we all have
to be accountable for our actions?
Speaker 3 (11:29):
Right.
Speaker 4 (11:30):
You ask the more than million dollar question here, Buck,
because what I view my responsibility here is to call
out truth and to argue that each component of this
reasonably and intelligently. And where we lost the conversation is
when everyone thinks that they can talk about very complicated
(11:51):
legal topics in a very lighthearted or let's just say
infused with so much emotion that you actually don't have
any ability to see the legal framework. that, for instance,
these jurors were given beyond a reasonable doubt. Everyone thinks
that they can talk about capacity. Everyone thinks that they
can talk about exactly what's happening in the minds of
(12:13):
these jurors or the prosecution or the defense. But the
facts are is that this is a very, I would
say it's straightforward in certain ways legally, but there are
complicated factors when you deal with capacity in the psychiatric meds,
and what the defense argues in the prosecution, but everyone wants.
Speaker 3 (12:28):
To weigh in on this case, Buck.
Speaker 4 (12:31):
And I think that is also the symptom of having
social media, right? And so what you and Clay are doing,
what I try to do, and what a lot of
other people do is to take, to contend in the
battlefield intelligently, to provide reasonable arguments on, you know, you
don't have to reasonably argue both sides, but a lawyer
can always go in and say, look, the prosecution is
(12:53):
going to argue this And here are some of the
things that the defense is going to bring up that's
going to make it hard for the prosecution to get
beyond that reasonable doubt. But I'm still not going to
deter from the fact that this woman is guilty and
needs to be held accountable for the death of her
three children that she caused. And I think you just
have to be strong and be willing to take the heat.
Speaker 3 (13:13):
All of us do.
Speaker 4 (13:14):
Because we cannot let, again, we cannot let this toxic
ideology continue to fester because it will destroy us as
a society. You cannot kill your young children. You cannot
kill the elderly. You have to protect the infirm and
those that cannot protect themselves as a society or you
are completely lost as a culture. And America needs to
(13:35):
be on the foreground and the forefront of this, Buck,
not in the background wondering what moral baton to hold.
Speaker 5 (13:43):
Katie Zachariah, always great to have you here on the program.
And thank you for bringing your legal perspective, your mom perspective,
and your just.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
Human perspective on this. Appreciate you.
Speaker 3 (13:53):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (13:55):
I talked to you about it before, guys. I'm talking
about it again.
Speaker 5 (13:58):
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Speaker 1 (15:46):
When hanging, you're not just learning, you're also laughing. Clay
and Buck, just preset them on the IRNF. Okay, welcome
back to Clay and Buck. The judge, Judge Sullivan... Bill
Sullivan of Massachusetts. Not a surprise.
Speaker 5 (16:01):
He is talking to the jury right now. He has
said he's going to talk to counsel. Is he still talking?
Should we join in progress, guys? No, I think he's
about to have a sidebar with.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
Them, right? Here we go.
Speaker 6 (16:19):
The evidence, I just kind of wanted to echo again.
I wanted to compliment all three counsels. A trial like this,
so hard, so difficult. And so I just kind of
wanted to thank the three of you for your efforts
in regards to this. And so with that, if you talked,
I think we should probably pick a status date, where
(16:45):
we are, a trial assignment date, so we can talk
about where we are.
Speaker 7 (16:48):
I would ask, Judge, sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt,
but I know I would like to argue a 25B2,
and that has to be done within five days. So,
I mean, I would like, if possible, to have this
on for a hearing on a motion for required finding
reconsideration 25B2 on Tuesday. And my request, assuming that you
deny that motion, would be that we impanel the following Monday.
Speaker 6 (17:13):
That would require, I'm going to have to check my schedule.
And also, so what I'm going to suggest, I understand
that's the request. My thinking is to try it sooner
rather than later, but I'm not sure that's sooner. And
it's a situation I also have to check the trial
court schedule, counsel schedule, witnesses schedule. But my thought would
(17:39):
be to try this, you know, if we could do
it maybe sometime later in the fall. But why don't
we pick a date maybe a couple of weeks down
the road so everybody can get their calendars together and
kind of see where we go. All right. What about
the 25th?
Speaker 1 (17:56):
Okay, bringing you back in, they're talking about when they
would schedule a new trial. A mistrial has officially been declared.
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a mistrial has been declared in the Lindsay Clancy case.
(19:00):
The legal Hail Mary attempt for Massachusetts Supreme Court to
step in and remove a juror. which would allow the
conviction theoretically to be tossed, or sorry, the charges to
be tossed and a not guilty verdict to have been rendered.
Where it appears we were is 11 Massachusetts jurors were
(19:23):
prepared to say that Lindsay Clancy was not guilty by
reason of insanity. One man, one of the three men
on the jury said, refused to agree with the majority.
And for days, probably, Buck, he has been being berated
because we know they've been saying we can't reach a verdict. Now,
(19:44):
what we don't know is, were there initially more individuals
alongside of this man? that would have been in a
position to support him and slowly they got peeled off
or has it been 11-1 for several days now? You
know how difficult this is? I mean, I actually want
to know who the guy is. I do, too. Man,
(20:04):
I want to. I want to have him on the show.
Speaker 5 (20:06):
I'm sure he's probably be on Fox primetime here within
a short period of time. This guy held the line,
held the line for sanity, held the line for civilization,
refused to back down.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
Good for him. Good for him. You know, he he
did his part.
Speaker 5 (20:22):
By the way, Clay, if you or I had been
on this jury, which I think we would have been
excused pretty fast. But if we had managed to either
of us be on the shirt, I would have found
myself in the same position as this guy. No way
I let this woman walk to a psychiatric facility after
she does this.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
Not after I saw the premeditation.
Speaker 5 (20:37):
Not after I saw that she was getting all this help,
that there were people everywhere working with her and trying
to make her life.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
No way. No way, no how. So this guy is
a hero. Cut 25 is the official announcement in the
courtroom that just happened. Play it.
Speaker 6 (20:57):
Members of the jury, at this point, I'm going to
declare that the jury is deadlocked and I'm going to
declare a mistrial.
Speaker 4 (21:06):
All right.
Speaker 5 (21:07):
So there you have it officially. Clay, can I just note,
even without a J.D., I was sitting here, meaning the degree,
not the vice president.
Speaker 1 (21:15):
I was sitting here saying.
Speaker 5 (21:19):
Just by applying reason and a rational approach to this,
if you can just say, oh, I really don't like
the way that this one juror is applying.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
The law, I want another court that hasn't.
Speaker 5 (21:30):
Heard all the evidence, that hasn't been there for weeks,
to just remove this juror because the defense doesn't want
him there, then the whole thing is a joke. So
clearly the Supreme Court of, or whoever the appellate court
for the state of Massachusetts is, Maybe they said, OK,
we'll hear what you want. And they said, no, we're
(21:50):
not going to do that because that would be nuts.
Not everybody happy with us. Stephanie, VIP email. I've been
listening to you since you took over for Rush, but
I just had to turn you off the radio because
I'm so sick and tired of you two of pontificating
about this trial. First of all, you are men. You've
(22:11):
never experienced what it's like to have any kind of
hormonal fluctuation with postpartum depression or having anything like that.
Trying to equate this with men killing their children is disgusting.
And then she says, she continues.
Speaker 1 (22:28):
Okay. Evidently, she's not listening because she's so curious.
Speaker 5 (22:31):
Can I jump in with something, Clay? How about we
play this game if she wants to take this approach?
A veteran returns from seeing serious combat, has extreme PTSD,
extreme PTSD, which is you can see it on brain scans.
Speaker 1 (22:44):
Not his fault.
Speaker 5 (22:45):
He's serving the country, and he has extreme– by the way,
I'm not saying this happens with veterans, but just play
out the scenario. He kills his wife and two kids
in a fit of psychotic rage and PTSD.
Speaker 1 (22:58):
Are there any men out there in.
Speaker 5 (22:59):
Pink, not pink t-shirt, but whatever, with placards saying that
this guy should not be held responsible? Would other veterans
even be out there saying he shouldn't be held responsible?
Speaker 6 (23:09):
No.
Speaker 5 (23:10):
No, because there are limits. There are limits even in
a case of psychological duress to what you can do
when you know what you are doing. She knew what
she was doing. She did not think she was some
being from outer space. who was living in an alternate reality,
she just decided she was going to do this. I
know we're told that she heard a voice. A lot
(23:31):
of serial killers say that they've heard voices. Is this
new to anybody, by the way? A lot of really
horrible people are actually quite crazy. This notion, like, you
sit here, you say, well, Hannibal Lecter had clearly, I
know he's a fictional character, but he clearly had psychological issues.
Speaker 1 (23:50):
So he shouldn't be held responsible for his murders. I
think your PTSD is a really good example.
Speaker 5 (23:56):
Oh, by the way, and we shut down all the women.
You can't say a word about this veteran who killed
his family because he had PTSD. You can't say a
word because you're a woman. You don't know what it's
like to be in combat. Would that fly as an argument?
Speaker 1 (24:09):
I don't think so. I think, again, to me, and
I just want, It's my wife's argument. It's not mine.
Because to be honest, as this case has progressed, I
spent most of my time looking at the fact that
we have a broken legal system, in my opinion, that
you can kill your children and you can argue that
(24:32):
you shouldn't be responsible for it because of insanity. And
I was more focused on the insanity defense than the
gender aspect of it. And in fact, when my wife
started talking about the gender aspect, I hadn't really thought
about it very much. But I do think that women
who are advocating for Lindsay Clancy to be held completely
(24:53):
without responsibility for these murders are actually arguing that women,
because of their unique biochemistry, are incapable of handling high-stress,
high-intense environments. I would also point this out. There are
billions of women that have a more stressful child-rearing environment
(25:17):
than Lindsay Clancy did. First of all, she was married.
She had a husband who made a really good income.
Her kids were well-fed. They were well taken care of. Many,
I mean, legitimately billions of moms have raised children under
incredibly more duress and stress than what Lindsay Clancy was
(25:42):
exposed to. So you're actually arguing for the people who
are supporting her are arguing in favor of an incredibly
privileged mother as these things go. that she still was
unable to be responsible for her own acts. I just
think you're basically arguing against women themselves and saying, and
(26:05):
this is my wife's argument that I'm now signing on to,
which I really hadn't spent much time on. This is
actually anti-woman to argue that women can't be held accountable
because if you can't be held accountable for killing your
own three kids, what can you be held accountable for?
Speaker 5 (26:20):
This is the origin of the term hysteria, hysteria, ancient Greek. Women, unreasonable, irrational,
cannot be held accountable. That is where the term comes from,
obviously from a different society in a different time where
the female liberation movement was not the case. Clay, can
I just remind you, we got a VIP email. I
(26:40):
forget who it was from, but he cited this case.
There was a case back in 1954 in Maine. Constance Fisher,
24 years old, drowned her three children. Very similar case.
three children, six, four, and 11 months old, in the bathtub.
She left a note saying God told her to do
it and that she was trying to save them from evil,
(27:00):
and then she tried to kill herself.
Speaker 1 (27:02):
She was unsuccessful in that.
Speaker 5 (27:03):
She was charged with murder, found not guilty by reason
of insanity, and a grand jury declined to indict after
a hospital report. She was committed to state hospital. Five
years later, she was released, released to her husband, who
believed her. Same husband, I might add. Stayed with her,
stayed by her side, thought it wasn't really her fault.
And I want to guess what happened next. A little
(27:24):
over 12 years after the first killings, the husband came
home and found the exact same scene. Three children, all
murdered by the woman. Same thing. Guess what happened? They
locked her up for the rest of her life. How
could you say someone is safe to be in society
after they murder three of their own children? Tell me
(27:44):
what that looks like. Would any of you let this
woman be a nurse for your child in the hospital?
Would any of you let her be a nanny in
your home or an employee in your office? Would you
want her as a next door neighbor bringing cookies over
and interacting with your kids? Be honest about that.
Speaker 1 (28:03):
I know I wouldn't. I also think this is important.
A lot of women are saying, and I'm going to
take a couple of your calls, a lot of women
are calling in and saying, I had postpartum depression. I
know what this is. But you didn't kill your kids. Yeah,
this is a huge disconnect with this, too. A lot
of people are depressed.
Speaker 5 (28:20):
They don't go out and murder 20 people in a
school shooting.
Speaker 1 (28:23):
This is actually super important. People can have bad thoughts.
You can sometimes think about doing bad things. But there
is a big difference between thinking about doing bad things
and actually doing them that's the whole point of the
law so women's empathy being utilized here for women out
(28:43):
there who say well my daughter had postpartum depression or
the caller the dad called in and said well my
daughter had post your daughter didn't kill her kids there's
a big difference between hey i thought about doing something
really bad And I chose not to do it and
actually doing it. And Catherine in Montana, I think, can
(29:04):
speak directly to this. Catherine, thanks for calling.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
Hey, thank you for listening. I really appreciate the chance
to talk to you.
Speaker 1 (29:15):
What's your story?
Speaker 2 (29:18):
My story is that my daughter-in-law experienced a very similar episode, thankfully.
We were able to intercede when she was having an
episode of this postpartum psychosis, which I would like... You know,
one of the things I'd like to say is postpartum
psychosis is immensely different than postpartum depression. And she knows that,
(29:42):
but for the grace of God, she would be in
Lindsay Clancy's shoes. And so I guess what has disturbed
me about hearing you all talk about this, yes, she's responsible,
and there is no excuse. for what she did but
there is an explanation and that explanation is understanding and
(30:02):
having compassion for those who have truly experienced postpartum.
Speaker 1 (30:07):
But i i appreciate your call but i don't have
compassion for her at all i have compassion for the
three kids that she murdered and for the husband who
came home for the grandparents who no longer have grandchildren
and With all due respect, I think when you're saying, hey,
you should have compassion for the person who committed the crime,
just a question. Do you have compassion for serial rapists?
Speaker 2 (30:31):
Clay, I really want you to understand the question. Postpartum psychosis.
Speaker 1 (30:39):
Okay, but a serial rapist can say, I can't control
myself because my brain is broken. You're saying that I
should give compassion to a woman who strangled her three
kids with an exercise band. I have a lot of
compassion for a lot of people. I have zero for her.
I think she should be dead. Okay, we've heard from Catherine.
(31:00):
Thank you, Catherine.
Speaker 5 (31:01):
It's not going to change either of our minds on it.
You're welcome to, of course, air her thoughts, and we
let her do so on the show. Clay, can I just–
on my PTSD example, this is actually very interesting. I've
been doing some quick research on this. So exactly what
I described has happened.
Speaker 1 (31:15):
People have come back. People have tried to use this
as an excuse.
Speaker 5 (31:18):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (31:19):
Let me give you some examples.
Speaker 5 (31:21):
The Marine veteran who had been diagnosed with extreme PTSD
who shot and killed Chris Kyle of American Sniper, he said–
It wasn't my fault. I killed him at the range
because I was having a flashback or whatever. Texas jury
rejected his defense, sentenced him to life without parole. Andrew Brannan,
(31:44):
Vietnam veteran, rated 100% disabled by the VA for extreme PTSD,
shot a Georgia deputy in 1998, pleaded insanity based on
having a combat flashback, convicted, executed, executed in 2015 after
appeals failed. We can go through a lot of these cases.
It is extremely hard and extremely rare to have PTSD
(32:10):
as an affirmative defense, Clay, to just get you essentially
in a sanity plea. It is usually used as a
mitigating factor in the crime for sentencing, if at all.
And the only time it is applicable is if the
person has such extreme PTSD that they have actual flashbacks
to combat. And this is proven before where they do
(32:31):
not know where they are. And Clay, keep in mind,
these individuals walked into the courtroom still in extreme psychological duress.
This woman is saying, I was crazy then, but I'm
not crazy anymore. It was just a one-time thing. And
I just would note why the PTSD thing is so
interesting to me. Women have opinions, and as they should,
they had opinions on these cases. They were allowed to
(32:53):
be on the jury. They were allowed to be.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
Part of the defense and the prosecution. What is this
thing of, I don't want to hear from men?
Speaker 5 (32:59):
No, that's not how the criminal justice system works, even
though women generally have not seen combat and certainly don't
understand PTSD the.
Speaker 1 (33:07):
Way men who have seen combat do. Look, my take
is pretty simple here. If you kill kids, you should
either be executed or you should be in prison for
the rest of your life. I don't care what your
justification for doing it is, period. And if we want
to have a real constructive conversation going forward about how
to avoid trials like this in the future, what I
(33:28):
have said is strict liability should exist for the killing
of children. We have a lot of state legislators, a
lot of members of the legislature that are listening right now,
introduce bills that make the murder of children a strict
liability offense. So your mental state doesn't matter at all.
(33:48):
I don't care why she did it. I care that
she did it. We have to get back to personal
responsibility here. You can make all sorts of excuses under
the sun for the bad things that happen. We got
to just hold bad acts and people who do them accountable, period,
particularly when they involve children. Look, I'm fired up. This weekend,
(34:09):
if you need to get away, From the serious things
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of the weekend. Clemson plus 10 points is the play.
I think Clemson's going to keep this game close. There's
(34:30):
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(35:17):
at the perfect temperature all the time. Preset Clay and
Buck on the iHeart app.
Speaker 5 (35:23):
Closing up shop today on Clay and Buck. A passionate
day for sure. Really just all in this Lindsay Clancy trial.
Sucking up all the media oxygen. No question about it.
So we are hoping on Monday we can dive into
a whole range of stories. This trial is not, well
this story I think is certainly not over. Because it's
likely there will be a retrial after the mistrial. Clay,
(35:46):
I guess let's try to send everybody off. Cut yourself
some slack this weekend. Go have a good Labor Day weekend.
Don't think about one of the darkest crime stories in
recent memory. You've got to let yourself go enjoy a
good weekend. And we're going to come back next week.
A lot to talk about the midterms and other things. Clay,
(36:07):
that's my version of some sunshine after a lot of darkness.
I just said I'm going to watch college football all weekend.
I'm headed out to a high school football game. But
I do think that the sunshine I would bring is
one man knew what was right on this jury, and
no matter how much he was berated, no matter how
(36:28):
much he was attacked, he was willing to stand for truth.
Speaker 1 (36:33):
That matters. One person standing for truth matters. For all
of you out there, stand for truth.
Speaker 5 (36:40):
Yeah, well, I was going to say, I think this
guy might be a Clayton Buck listener.
Speaker 1 (36:44):
Wouldn't shock me.
Welcome back in, Clay and Buck. Appreciate all of you
hanging out with us. We are rolling through the Friday
edition of the program. We are waiting to see if
the Lindsay Clancy trial is going to be updated in
any way. If you are just getting in your car
(00:20):
right now and catching up with everything that is going on,
we have got... Really, Lindsey Clancy, all talk. It has
taken over. Earlier today, the jury was.
And there was a mistrial that was declared that was
(00:41):
then held in abeyance to allow a last second appeal
to the Massachusetts Supreme Court to try to get a
juror kicked off the trial. And now we are, according
to the headlines that I am seeing, the Massachusetts Supreme
Court is weighing the emergency request that has been filed
(01:02):
by the defense to get this lone juror kicked off
of the trial. So that is where we are. There
appear to be 11 votes to find Lindsay Clancy not guilty.
Only one who it appears is one of the three
men on the trial that is willing to say, no,
(01:22):
she is in fact guilty. And so we are waiting
to see what is going to be the result of
this trial. Okay, I believe we are joined now by
Katie Zachariah. She is with us right now. Katie, you
are a mom of four. I want to read you
(01:43):
what I tweeted earlier because I'm quoting her. My wife, Laura,
a mom of three, she's furious with the Lindsay Clancy case.
She was talking about it with me this morning. She
said it's the worst thing possible for women because if
women are so hormonal, They can't keep from killing their
own kids. How can women argue they deserve any positions
(02:06):
of high responsibility? She says it's anti-woman to favor not guilty.
And she also has been saying no man is ever
able to cite his own hormones as justification for committing
a murder. And no one would even take it seriously
if men tried to do it. You are a mom
(02:27):
of four. As I just said, do you agree with
her take? What is your take on this?
Speaker 3 (02:34):
Yeah. You know, when we.
Speaker 4 (02:35):
First started talking about Lindsay Clancy, I was under the
incorrect assumption.
Speaker 3 (02:41):
This is months ago that we all knew she was
guilty of killing her children. And it was a discussion,
a legal discussion.
Speaker 4 (02:47):
I'm also a lawyer as to whether or not the
prosecution could prove beyond a reasonable doubt that.
Speaker 3 (02:53):
That Lindsay Clancy had the capacity, right?
Speaker 4 (02:55):
So that only looks at murder one, murder two, and manslaughter.
This is not, she didn't do it. And to see
this hyper focus on these pink shirt women that are rallying,
not just saying Lindsay Clancy didn't do it, but the
husband may have done it. And this kind of hyperbolic
and almost insane presence of the toxic feminism is to
(03:19):
what you were just discussing is to the point That
so much of the time, if a woman is engaging
in this type of discussion, you cannot be taken seriously.
A serious discussion is capacity and whether or not the
13 psychiatric drugs and their contraindications diluted her ability to
understand or appreciate the wrongfulness of her conduct, which is
(03:41):
that she murdered three of her children, that she killed
three children. Look, Clay, she sent her husband out. on
an errand and she intentionally took those three children down
to her basement and killed them. This is not up
for discussion and a society as a whole should be
treating this and Lindsay Clancy truly as she is not
the victim. She is the perpetrator and she destroyed three
(04:03):
lives for it. But again, to your point, women will
not be taken seriously if they start excusing every hormonal
or hormone or postpartum depression. It alleviates all responsibility from women,
which then makes them not serious candidates for.
Speaker 3 (04:20):
Positions, as you just said.
Speaker 5 (04:23):
So, Katie, appreciate you being with us. And we were
going to talk about the economy and things like that.
But because of the news today, we've got to get
you to weigh in on this. But as has been stated,
you are a mother of four. You are clearly a
woman and you are also a lawyer to the degree
that you can take us into the mindset of some
of the pink shirt wearing supporters here of Lindsay Clancy.
(04:46):
You're also a Californian. You come on a lot to
talk to us about what's going on with the Golden State.
I assume you have been exposed to, if not in
your immediate circle, women in your area, whether out protesting
or just from conversation, who are Lindsay Clancy supporters. supporters
what is going on there like what is it that
(05:07):
these women are think why has this turned into a
a case of a national solidarity from a lot of
women millions of them it seems who are are almost
fans of lindsey clancy or you know view it as
like some extension of their own problems in life what
i know it's very complicated it's a weird situation what
(05:30):
are they thinking Well, yeah, first.
Speaker 4 (05:32):
Book, the thing is that I've noticed, and it must
be said, is that this really hasn't gone down on
Republican or Democrat lines. I've had actually a lot of
women on the Republican, like conservative women, come out in
support of Lindsay Clancy.
Speaker 3 (05:49):
And even to my surprise, my.
Speaker 4 (05:51):
More liberal side of the equation has, at least from
my vantage point, have come out against Lindsay Clancy. So
it's not always and completely on partisan lines right now,
which I think is an even more interesting investigation that
needs to be looked at.
Speaker 3 (06:08):
What are these women watching? What are they looking into?
And what are they reading?
Speaker 4 (06:12):
And who's challenging their thought process? And from what I
have seen is most women are against exonerating Lindsay Clancy
because it will not allow for women to be taken
seriously on the greater scale, but also because if you
are a mother, you understand that this woman appreciated the
(06:33):
wrongfulness of her conduct and murdered her kids.
Speaker 3 (06:36):
And I have four kids. I had sleepless nights.
Speaker 4 (06:39):
I never thankfully had postpartum depression, postpartum psychosis.
Speaker 3 (06:43):
I had what many have said.
Speaker 4 (06:44):
Postpartum euphoria, but there are long sleepless nights. And to,
to give this woman an excuse for her behavior and,
will show other women that they can do whatever they
want with their children and, and they won't be held accountable.
And I think to, to end here, the problem with
our society right now is that we are finding reasons
(07:06):
to excuse a woman who killed her children. And, and
it's mostly women that are finding that a space to
excuse her, but there are some men that are coming
out in support of her and whether that juror 11 one,
where you have even two men that have gone, gone
over to the non-guilty court, There is there is something
happening in a society that says you can harm your
kids and not be held accountable. And that is what
(07:29):
we need to get at. We need to get at
the root of this really, really toxic ideology.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
I think that what you said is important because really
what it comes down to is individual responsibility. And it
feels like we are increasingly coming up with reasons why
people are not responsible. Here's my concern. When, unfortunately, we
see kids commit suicide in high school, for instance, oftentimes
(07:55):
there's an echo effect. When one kid commits suicide, unfortunately,
several others often do. The media attention, just, again, sort
of the reverberating impact of this. My concern is something
you just hit on there, Katie, which is other women
out there who might be struggling with see her and
(08:17):
see the way that she is being supported. And I
fear that it makes it more likely that we could
see an echo effect of this similar to what we
see with suicides where other young children are killed because
Lindsay Clancy is in the mind of so many moms
out there.
Speaker 3 (08:36):
Absolutely.
Speaker 4 (08:38):
If you look at this pattern on TikTok and I
will not repost it and I will barely even look
at it, but there are videos that are going viral.
of accidental deaths where they're holding a baby doll and
throwing them down the stairs or tripping. And it is,
as a parent, horrifying to even imagine pretending that you
(08:58):
would hurt your child or that you would hurt an
innocent life.
Speaker 3 (09:01):
Nonetheless, these people.
Speaker 4 (09:03):
Are getting viral retweets and feedback and moms are all
recording themselves crying. And it's It is a true online psychosis.
Speaker 3 (09:13):
This is not accidental.
Speaker 4 (09:15):
This is what happens when a society starts telling you
from the beginning that.
Speaker 3 (09:20):
Abortion is okay up until 41 weeks. That's late-term abortion.
Speaker 4 (09:24):
That child can survive outside of the womb.
Speaker 3 (09:26):
That just happened in Massachusetts.
Speaker 4 (09:28):
It's no mistake, in my opinion, that we are now facing,
you can kill your three children and we can.
Speaker 3 (09:34):
Exonerate that behavior.
Speaker 4 (09:36):
And then we're going to have viral videos of other
mothers Essentially, buffering that behavior and lightening it by making
a TikTok video to light music of their baby falling
down the stairs that they accidentally dropped. This type of
stuff has to be immediately called out and it has
to be completely disregarded in society as what it is.
Speaker 3 (09:59):
Is it's sick and toxic.
Speaker 4 (10:01):
And if enough women push against it and enough men
together with women push against it, I think people will
realize that they are on the fringe of society. But
what happens with social media is some little small part
of society puts these viral videos out and it makes
everyone think, that everyone's going through this, which a majority
of mothers, look, I have a lot of friends who
have four plus kids.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
Okay.
Speaker 4 (10:23):
I don't know anyone who went through this.
Speaker 3 (10:24):
So to think that this is some mainstream.
Speaker 4 (10:26):
Problem, it is, it is not a mainstream problem and
we need to treat it like the psychosis, toxic ideology, psychotic,
toxic ideology.
Speaker 3 (10:34):
That it is.
Speaker 5 (10:36):
So Katie, where do we go from here? What do
you think The response from those who see this for
what it is, how do you, I just, again, as
a mom of four and somebody who, I think very
importantly you pointed out, because this has been my experience too,
this is not a hard partisan separation. There's definitely a
(10:58):
hard gender separation overwhelmingly. There are some men maybe who
are more supportive of Lindsay Clancy, but overwhelmingly it is women.
It is not all left-wing women. There are, I have
experienced this, people, women who are right of center, how
do we get back to a society that would understand
(11:19):
unanimously that there's nothing worse than a situation where a
parent kills their own children and that we all have
to be accountable for our actions?
Speaker 3 (11:29):
Right.
Speaker 4 (11:30):
You ask the more than million dollar question here, Buck,
because what I view my responsibility here is to call
out truth and to argue that each component of this
reasonably and intelligently. And where we lost the conversation is
when everyone thinks that they can talk about very complicated
(11:51):
legal topics in a very lighthearted or let's just say
infused with so much emotion that you actually don't have
any ability to see the legal framework. that, for instance,
these jurors were given beyond a reasonable doubt. Everyone thinks
that they can talk about capacity. Everyone thinks that they
can talk about exactly what's happening in the minds of
(12:13):
these jurors or the prosecution or the defense. But the
facts are is that this is a very, I would
say it's straightforward in certain ways legally, but there are
complicated factors when you deal with capacity in the psychiatric meds,
and what the defense argues in the prosecution, but everyone wants.
Speaker 3 (12:28):
To weigh in on this case, Buck.
Speaker 4 (12:31):
And I think that is also the symptom of having
social media, right? And so what you and Clay are doing,
what I try to do, and what a lot of
other people do is to take, to contend in the
battlefield intelligently, to provide reasonable arguments on, you know, you
don't have to reasonably argue both sides, but a lawyer
can always go in and say, look, the prosecution is
(12:53):
going to argue this And here are some of the
things that the defense is going to bring up that's
going to make it hard for the prosecution to get
beyond that reasonable doubt. But I'm still not going to
deter from the fact that this woman is guilty and
needs to be held accountable for the death of her
three children that she caused. And I think you just
have to be strong and be willing to take the heat.
Speaker 3 (13:13):
All of us do.
Speaker 4 (13:14):
Because we cannot let, again, we cannot let this toxic
ideology continue to fester because it will destroy us as
a society. You cannot kill your young children. You cannot
kill the elderly. You have to protect the infirm and
those that cannot protect themselves as a society or you
are completely lost as a culture. And America needs to
(13:35):
be on the foreground and the forefront of this, Buck,
not in the background wondering what moral baton to hold.
Speaker 5 (13:43):
Katie Zachariah, always great to have you here on the program.
And thank you for bringing your legal perspective, your mom perspective,
and your just.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
Human perspective on this. Appreciate you.
Speaker 3 (13:53):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (13:55):
I talked to you about it before, guys. I'm talking
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Speaker 1 (15:46):
When hanging, you're not just learning, you're also laughing. Clay
and Buck, just preset them on the IRNF. Okay, welcome
back to Clay and Buck. The judge, Judge Sullivan... Bill
Sullivan of Massachusetts. Not a surprise.
Speaker 5 (16:01):
He is talking to the jury right now. He has
said he's going to talk to counsel. Is he still talking?
Should we join in progress, guys? No, I think he's
about to have a sidebar with.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
Them, right? Here we go.
Speaker 6 (16:19):
The evidence, I just kind of wanted to echo again.
I wanted to compliment all three counsels. A trial like this,
so hard, so difficult. And so I just kind of
wanted to thank the three of you for your efforts
in regards to this. And so with that, if you talked,
I think we should probably pick a status date, where
(16:45):
we are, a trial assignment date, so we can talk
about where we are.
Speaker 7 (16:48):
I would ask, Judge, sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt,
but I know I would like to argue a 25B2,
and that has to be done within five days. So,
I mean, I would like, if possible, to have this
on for a hearing on a motion for required finding
reconsideration 25B2 on Tuesday. And my request, assuming that you
deny that motion, would be that we impanel the following Monday.
Speaker 6 (17:13):
That would require, I'm going to have to check my schedule.
And also, so what I'm going to suggest, I understand
that's the request. My thinking is to try it sooner
rather than later, but I'm not sure that's sooner. And
it's a situation I also have to check the trial
court schedule, counsel schedule, witnesses schedule. But my thought would
(17:39):
be to try this, you know, if we could do
it maybe sometime later in the fall. But why don't
we pick a date maybe a couple of weeks down
the road so everybody can get their calendars together and
kind of see where we go. All right. What about
the 25th?
Speaker 1 (17:56):
Okay, bringing you back in, they're talking about when they
would schedule a new trial. A mistrial has officially been declared.
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up for pure talk today. Welcome back in Clay and Buck. OK, officially,
a mistrial has been declared in the Lindsay Clancy case.
(19:00):
The legal Hail Mary attempt for Massachusetts Supreme Court to
step in and remove a juror. which would allow the
conviction theoretically to be tossed, or sorry, the charges to
be tossed and a not guilty verdict to have been rendered.
Where it appears we were is 11 Massachusetts jurors were
(19:23):
prepared to say that Lindsay Clancy was not guilty by
reason of insanity. One man, one of the three men
on the jury said, refused to agree with the majority.
And for days, probably, Buck, he has been being berated
because we know they've been saying we can't reach a verdict. Now,
(19:44):
what we don't know is, were there initially more individuals
alongside of this man? that would have been in a
position to support him and slowly they got peeled off
or has it been 11-1 for several days now? You
know how difficult this is? I mean, I actually want
to know who the guy is. I do, too. Man,
(20:04):
I want to. I want to have him on the show.
Speaker 5 (20:06):
I'm sure he's probably be on Fox primetime here within
a short period of time. This guy held the line,
held the line for sanity, held the line for civilization,
refused to back down.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
Good for him. Good for him. You know, he he
did his part.
Speaker 5 (20:22):
By the way, Clay, if you or I had been
on this jury, which I think we would have been
excused pretty fast. But if we had managed to either
of us be on the shirt, I would have found
myself in the same position as this guy. No way
I let this woman walk to a psychiatric facility after
she does this.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
Not after I saw the premeditation.
Speaker 5 (20:37):
Not after I saw that she was getting all this help,
that there were people everywhere working with her and trying
to make her life.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
No way. No way, no how. So this guy is
a hero. Cut 25 is the official announcement in the
courtroom that just happened. Play it.
Speaker 6 (20:57):
Members of the jury, at this point, I'm going to
declare that the jury is deadlocked and I'm going to
declare a mistrial.
Speaker 4 (21:06):
All right.
Speaker 5 (21:07):
So there you have it officially. Clay, can I just note,
even without a J.D., I was sitting here, meaning the degree,
not the vice president.
Speaker 1 (21:15):
I was sitting here saying.
Speaker 5 (21:19):
Just by applying reason and a rational approach to this,
if you can just say, oh, I really don't like
the way that this one juror is applying.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
The law, I want another court that hasn't.
Speaker 5 (21:30):
Heard all the evidence, that hasn't been there for weeks,
to just remove this juror because the defense doesn't want
him there, then the whole thing is a joke. So
clearly the Supreme Court of, or whoever the appellate court
for the state of Massachusetts is, Maybe they said, OK,
we'll hear what you want. And they said, no, we're
(21:50):
not going to do that because that would be nuts.
Not everybody happy with us. Stephanie, VIP email. I've been
listening to you since you took over for Rush, but
I just had to turn you off the radio because
I'm so sick and tired of you two of pontificating
about this trial. First of all, you are men. You've
(22:11):
never experienced what it's like to have any kind of
hormonal fluctuation with postpartum depression or having anything like that.
Trying to equate this with men killing their children is disgusting.
And then she says, she continues.
Speaker 1 (22:28):
Okay. Evidently, she's not listening because she's so curious.
Speaker 5 (22:31):
Can I jump in with something, Clay? How about we
play this game if she wants to take this approach?
A veteran returns from seeing serious combat, has extreme PTSD,
extreme PTSD, which is you can see it on brain scans.
Speaker 1 (22:44):
Not his fault.
Speaker 5 (22:45):
He's serving the country, and he has extreme– by the way,
I'm not saying this happens with veterans, but just play
out the scenario. He kills his wife and two kids
in a fit of psychotic rage and PTSD.
Speaker 1 (22:58):
Are there any men out there in.
Speaker 5 (22:59):
Pink, not pink t-shirt, but whatever, with placards saying that
this guy should not be held responsible? Would other veterans
even be out there saying he shouldn't be held responsible?
Speaker 6 (23:09):
No.
Speaker 5 (23:10):
No, because there are limits. There are limits even in
a case of psychological duress to what you can do
when you know what you are doing. She knew what
she was doing. She did not think she was some
being from outer space. who was living in an alternate reality,
she just decided she was going to do this. I
know we're told that she heard a voice. A lot
(23:31):
of serial killers say that they've heard voices. Is this
new to anybody, by the way? A lot of really
horrible people are actually quite crazy. This notion, like, you
sit here, you say, well, Hannibal Lecter had clearly, I
know he's a fictional character, but he clearly had psychological issues.
Speaker 1 (23:50):
So he shouldn't be held responsible for his murders. I
think your PTSD is a really good example.
Speaker 5 (23:56):
Oh, by the way, and we shut down all the women.
You can't say a word about this veteran who killed
his family because he had PTSD. You can't say a
word because you're a woman. You don't know what it's
like to be in combat. Would that fly as an argument?
Speaker 1 (24:09):
I don't think so. I think, again, to me, and
I just want, It's my wife's argument. It's not mine.
Because to be honest, as this case has progressed, I
spent most of my time looking at the fact that
we have a broken legal system, in my opinion, that
you can kill your children and you can argue that
(24:32):
you shouldn't be responsible for it because of insanity. And
I was more focused on the insanity defense than the
gender aspect of it. And in fact, when my wife
started talking about the gender aspect, I hadn't really thought
about it very much. But I do think that women
who are advocating for Lindsay Clancy to be held completely
(24:53):
without responsibility for these murders are actually arguing that women,
because of their unique biochemistry, are incapable of handling high-stress,
high-intense environments. I would also point this out. There are
billions of women that have a more stressful child-rearing environment
(25:17):
than Lindsay Clancy did. First of all, she was married.
She had a husband who made a really good income.
Her kids were well-fed. They were well taken care of. Many,
I mean, legitimately billions of moms have raised children under
incredibly more duress and stress than what Lindsay Clancy was
(25:42):
exposed to. So you're actually arguing for the people who
are supporting her are arguing in favor of an incredibly
privileged mother as these things go. that she still was
unable to be responsible for her own acts. I just
think you're basically arguing against women themselves and saying, and
(26:05):
this is my wife's argument that I'm now signing on to,
which I really hadn't spent much time on. This is
actually anti-woman to argue that women can't be held accountable
because if you can't be held accountable for killing your
own three kids, what can you be held accountable for?
Speaker 5 (26:20):
This is the origin of the term hysteria, hysteria, ancient Greek. Women, unreasonable, irrational,
cannot be held accountable. That is where the term comes from,
obviously from a different society in a different time where
the female liberation movement was not the case. Clay, can
I just remind you, we got a VIP email. I
(26:40):
forget who it was from, but he cited this case.
There was a case back in 1954 in Maine. Constance Fisher,
24 years old, drowned her three children. Very similar case.
three children, six, four, and 11 months old, in the bathtub.
She left a note saying God told her to do
it and that she was trying to save them from evil,
(27:00):
and then she tried to kill herself.
Speaker 1 (27:02):
She was unsuccessful in that.
Speaker 5 (27:03):
She was charged with murder, found not guilty by reason
of insanity, and a grand jury declined to indict after
a hospital report. She was committed to state hospital. Five
years later, she was released, released to her husband, who
believed her. Same husband, I might add. Stayed with her,
stayed by her side, thought it wasn't really her fault.
And I want to guess what happened next. A little
(27:24):
over 12 years after the first killings, the husband came
home and found the exact same scene. Three children, all
murdered by the woman. Same thing. Guess what happened? They
locked her up for the rest of her life. How
could you say someone is safe to be in society
after they murder three of their own children? Tell me
(27:44):
what that looks like. Would any of you let this
woman be a nurse for your child in the hospital?
Would any of you let her be a nanny in
your home or an employee in your office? Would you
want her as a next door neighbor bringing cookies over
and interacting with your kids? Be honest about that.
Speaker 1 (28:03):
I know I wouldn't. I also think this is important.
A lot of women are saying, and I'm going to
take a couple of your calls, a lot of women
are calling in and saying, I had postpartum depression. I
know what this is. But you didn't kill your kids. Yeah,
this is a huge disconnect with this, too. A lot
of people are depressed.
Speaker 5 (28:20):
They don't go out and murder 20 people in a
school shooting.
Speaker 1 (28:23):
This is actually super important. People can have bad thoughts.
You can sometimes think about doing bad things. But there
is a big difference between thinking about doing bad things
and actually doing them that's the whole point of the
law so women's empathy being utilized here for women out
(28:43):
there who say well my daughter had postpartum depression or
the caller the dad called in and said well my
daughter had post your daughter didn't kill her kids there's
a big difference between hey i thought about doing something
really bad And I chose not to do it and
actually doing it. And Catherine in Montana, I think, can
(29:04):
speak directly to this. Catherine, thanks for calling.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
Hey, thank you for listening. I really appreciate the chance
to talk to you.
Speaker 1 (29:15):
What's your story?
Speaker 2 (29:18):
My story is that my daughter-in-law experienced a very similar episode, thankfully.
We were able to intercede when she was having an
episode of this postpartum psychosis, which I would like... You know,
one of the things I'd like to say is postpartum
psychosis is immensely different than postpartum depression. And she knows that,
(29:42):
but for the grace of God, she would be in
Lindsay Clancy's shoes. And so I guess what has disturbed
me about hearing you all talk about this, yes, she's responsible,
and there is no excuse. for what she did but
there is an explanation and that explanation is understanding and
(30:02):
having compassion for those who have truly experienced postpartum.
Speaker 1 (30:07):
But i i appreciate your call but i don't have
compassion for her at all i have compassion for the
three kids that she murdered and for the husband who
came home for the grandparents who no longer have grandchildren
and With all due respect, I think when you're saying, hey,
you should have compassion for the person who committed the crime,
just a question. Do you have compassion for serial rapists?
Speaker 2 (30:31):
Clay, I really want you to understand the question. Postpartum psychosis.
Speaker 1 (30:39):
Okay, but a serial rapist can say, I can't control
myself because my brain is broken. You're saying that I
should give compassion to a woman who strangled her three
kids with an exercise band. I have a lot of
compassion for a lot of people. I have zero for her.
I think she should be dead. Okay, we've heard from Catherine.
(31:00):
Thank you, Catherine.
Speaker 5 (31:01):
It's not going to change either of our minds on it.
You're welcome to, of course, air her thoughts, and we
let her do so on the show. Clay, can I just–
on my PTSD example, this is actually very interesting. I've
been doing some quick research on this. So exactly what
I described has happened.
Speaker 1 (31:15):
People have come back. People have tried to use this
as an excuse.
Speaker 5 (31:18):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (31:19):
Let me give you some examples.
Speaker 5 (31:21):
The Marine veteran who had been diagnosed with extreme PTSD
who shot and killed Chris Kyle of American Sniper, he said–
It wasn't my fault. I killed him at the range
because I was having a flashback or whatever. Texas jury
rejected his defense, sentenced him to life without parole. Andrew Brannan,
(31:44):
Vietnam veteran, rated 100% disabled by the VA for extreme PTSD,
shot a Georgia deputy in 1998, pleaded insanity based on
having a combat flashback, convicted, executed, executed in 2015 after
appeals failed. We can go through a lot of these cases.
It is extremely hard and extremely rare to have PTSD
(32:10):
as an affirmative defense, Clay, to just get you essentially
in a sanity plea. It is usually used as a
mitigating factor in the crime for sentencing, if at all.
And the only time it is applicable is if the
person has such extreme PTSD that they have actual flashbacks
to combat. And this is proven before where they do
(32:31):
not know where they are. And Clay, keep in mind,
these individuals walked into the courtroom still in extreme psychological duress.
This woman is saying, I was crazy then, but I'm
not crazy anymore. It was just a one-time thing. And
I just would note why the PTSD thing is so
interesting to me. Women have opinions, and as they should,
they had opinions on these cases. They were allowed to
(32:53):
be on the jury. They were allowed to be.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
Part of the defense and the prosecution. What is this
thing of, I don't want to hear from men?
Speaker 5 (32:59):
No, that's not how the criminal justice system works, even
though women generally have not seen combat and certainly don't
understand PTSD the.
Speaker 1 (33:07):
Way men who have seen combat do. Look, my take
is pretty simple here. If you kill kids, you should
either be executed or you should be in prison for
the rest of your life. I don't care what your
justification for doing it is, period. And if we want
to have a real constructive conversation going forward about how
to avoid trials like this in the future, what I
(33:28):
have said is strict liability should exist for the killing
of children. We have a lot of state legislators, a
lot of members of the legislature that are listening right now,
introduce bills that make the murder of children a strict
liability offense. So your mental state doesn't matter at all.
(33:48):
I don't care why she did it. I care that
she did it. We have to get back to personal
responsibility here. You can make all sorts of excuses under
the sun for the bad things that happen. We got
to just hold bad acts and people who do them accountable, period,
particularly when they involve children. Look, I'm fired up. This weekend,
(34:09):
if you need to get away, From the serious things
in life. And I totally understand why you would need
to do that. I've got a game that I want
all of you to watch. I want you to watch
Clemson on the road at LSU. It's the best game
of the weekend. Clemson plus 10 points is the play.
I think Clemson's going to keep this game close. There's
(34:30):
been all sorts of chaos surrounding LSU. Again, serious things
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(35:17):
at the perfect temperature all the time. Preset Clay and
Buck on the iHeart app.
Speaker 5 (35:23):
Closing up shop today on Clay and Buck. A passionate
day for sure. Really just all in this Lindsay Clancy trial.
Sucking up all the media oxygen. No question about it.
So we are hoping on Monday we can dive into
a whole range of stories. This trial is not, well
this story I think is certainly not over. Because it's
likely there will be a retrial after the mistrial. Clay,
(35:46):
I guess let's try to send everybody off. Cut yourself
some slack this weekend. Go have a good Labor Day weekend.
Don't think about one of the darkest crime stories in
recent memory. You've got to let yourself go enjoy a
good weekend. And we're going to come back next week.
A lot to talk about the midterms and other things. Clay,
(36:07):
that's my version of some sunshine after a lot of darkness.
I just said I'm going to watch college football all weekend.
I'm headed out to a high school football game. But
I do think that the sunshine I would bring is
one man knew what was right on this jury, and
no matter how much he was berated, no matter how
(36:28):
much he was attacked, he was willing to stand for truth.
Speaker 1 (36:33):
That matters. One person standing for truth matters. For all
of you out there, stand for truth.
Speaker 5 (36:40):
Yeah, well, I was going to say, I think this
guy might be a Clayton Buck listener.
Speaker 1 (36:44):
Wouldn't shock me.
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