On this episode of The Karol Markowicz Show, Karol sits down with bestselling author and Call Me Back host Dan Senor for a powerful conversation about Israel, resilience, community, and the future of human connection.
Dan discusses the story behind his bestselling books Startup Nation and The Genius of Israel, explaining how Israel became one of the world’s leading centers for innovation, entrepreneurship, and technology. He reflects on the aftermath of October 7th, rising global hostility toward Israel, and why he remains optimistic that Israel will emerge stronger economically, militarily, and culturally.
Karol and Dan also explore the importance of faith, family traditions, and building strong communities in an increasingly disconnected world. Dan shares why Shabbat became an anchor for his family, his predictions for Israel’s relationships with Arab nations, the future of the Middle East, and even his hope for the New York Jets.
Plus, Dan explains why reading books, debating ideas, and finding meaningful relationships may become even more valuable in the age of artificial intelligence.
Follow Clay & Buck on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/clayandbuck
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
Hi, and welcome back to the Carol Margot Show on iHeartRadio.
My guest today is Dan Seenor. Dan is the author
of the New York Times best selling book The Genius
of Israel and the host of Call Me Back. Hi, Dan.
So nice to have you on, Carol.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Great to be with you. I mean, it's great to
connect one way or the other. So yes, so.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
We'll have to do it. We'll have to do it
like this, you know. I have to say, I think
the thing I disagreed with you most through the time
that I've followed you is that you're a proponent of
voice notes, and I find them offensive and unacceptable. So
I rather do podcast than voice notes.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
I like voice notes over texting and emailing.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
No, such a wrong opinion, No, no, sorry, Well, first
of all, who uses voice notes the most? Israelis? And
how did they talk in like a I'm walking here
and I wanted to tell you, and it's like it
just goes on for ten minutes and.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Right right, right, right, Okay, you're fair. There's gonna be
some you know, there's gonna be some AI tool at
some point that will take Israeli voice memos, Israeli accented
English Voice memos and will will kind of just make
them very efficient. That'll be the next innovation out of
startup nation.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
That's true. That's exactly right. So your books and your
podcast are very pro Israel. It's a very good time
to be pro Israel. Obviously you must be very popular.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
Yeah, let's just say it's called buying on the dip.
You know, it's like it's like this is this is
someone say catching you know, catching a falling knife. But
whatever this is. It's lonely. But but you know, it's
one of those things like if you know, you know,
the people you know and appreciate it, really know and
appreciate it absolutely.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
So how did you get into this? How did you
start your podcast? What made you write these books about
the wonders that Israel is doing and accomplishing? What was
the start of all this?
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Each of them is there is its own story, has
its own origin story. The short version is I've been
involved with Jewish life and Israel and the US Israel
relationship for a long time. I grew up with it.
My parents were very involved. And then when I was
working in politics and government, I worked a lot on
(02:25):
foreign policy issues, so I was dealing a lot with Israel.
But the origin of the Book of Startup Nation, which
was the first time I was really out in a
very public way under my own name, was that I
had invested a number of Israeli startups and worked with
a number of Israeli entrepreneurs over the years, and I
just I found them to be some of the most
(02:46):
impressive entrepreneurs in the world. And what was amazing to
me is they represented so much to me, at least
of the vibrancy of Israel, of Israeli life, of Israeli culture,
of Israeli society, of the Israeli economy. And yet it
felt like virtually no one who had not been spending
(03:08):
time in Israel was aware of this part. If you
ask most people who didn't know much about Israel before
our book came out, what do they think of when
you say the word Israeli? What Israelis come to mind?
They would usually say people Israelis in uniform, the IDF,
or they would say Haredi Israeli's ultra Orthodox Jews. They
have an image of, or they think of like Kibbutzniks,
(03:29):
you know, sandals, people in sandals picking oranges. I mean,
these are the images. And I would say, what if
I told you that Israel has the most important and
dynamic innovation economy in the world after Silicon Valley, and
that actually most of Israel's economic growth and so much
of its dynamism is now expressed through these young largely today,
(03:51):
not entirely, but largely secular, very modern Western Israelis who
are building, developing these inventions that are solving some of
the world's most perplexing problems. And people are like what,
And I would say, this is it's a higher They
represent a higher percentage of Israel's labor force than say
the tech you know, tech workers do in the United
(04:12):
States of the US labor force. So I was just
struck that this story was not being told, that people
didn't know about this part of Israeli life. And my
co author Saul Singer, who lives in Israel, and he
at the time he was work he was a writer
for the Jerusalem Post. I said, why don't we write
a book explaining this phenomenon and what this segment of
(04:33):
Israeli life is, what the world can learn from it.
I took a group of thirty Harvard Business School students
to Israel in two thousand and two thousand and one,
and none of them had been to Israel. They were
blown away by what they saw there in terms of
this segment of Israeli life, and they were like, how
did Israel pull this off? How did they pull it
off in the least likely of places on the tech front,
(04:55):
on the innovation front. And so you add up all
these experiences and Saul and I decide, let's write a
book and we call it Startup Nation because it is
a startup nation. It's the highest density of has the
highest density of startups in the world, and it's and
it's like a double on tendre because the whole the
whole country is a startup. The modern state of Israel
is actually very entrepreneurial enterprise. And that's and so that
(05:18):
that book, you know, is what really got me out
there in a very public way, trying to explain Israel,
trying to figure out what we can learn from Israel,
and making the case for the US as a relationship.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
Did you think that you would have to be defending
Israel the way we all kind of have to right now?
This shortly after writing that kind of book, where Israel's
this Western country. It obviously has so much in common
with us, and your book shows not just the you know,
economics of it, but you talk about Israeli culture and
(05:54):
how they're the happiest people in the world and they're
the multi fulfilled and yet there's this disc act with
how they're portrayed around the world.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
I someone asked me yesterday it was a great question
if I if the book because the book was published
by Hashet Book Group, you know, it was like a
mainstream publisher. Our second book, The Genius of Israel, was
published by Simon and Schuster. They the person interviewing me said,
do you think your book said just take Startup Nation
(06:25):
could would have been published by a publisher like that
after October seventh? It was a great I had like
it had never occurred to me. I look, do I
feel completely jostled by these last few years? Like there's
there's no question. I mean, I knew there was hostility
(06:46):
to Israel around the world. I didn't. I could have
never imagined what has happened since October seven, twenty twenty three.
The way I explained it is I naively thought after
October seventh, twenty twenty three, as the world was processing
these images, these horrific, barbaric images that we were all processing.
(07:07):
My immediate reaction it was that the outrage of the
world will be finally directed at those people massacring Jews.
And what has has really shook me and hasn't stopped
shaking me, is that I soon learned that the outrage
(07:27):
of the world was actually, very quickly after October seventh,
almost immediately directed at Jews for objecting to being massacred. Yeah,
and that reality is something I have not gotten over,
and I tragically think to some degree it's our new reality.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
Yeah, you know, I would say an optimistic looking forward.
I mean, this show is very like the future Predictions
and how to Live Better and all of that. I
could easily see you writing a third book in ten
years about how Israel overcame all this and succeeded despite
all of it, and that it made it. I'm already there,
(08:09):
better and stronger, right, I'm already actually it's already happening. Right.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
No, no, no, no, not, I'm not writing that book. I mean,
I think my wife will kill me if I tell
I'm writing another book. But no, I I I'm of
that view. I'm actually of the view that Israel will
come out of this already is that you can already
see certain trends. People aren't focusing on them, which I understand.
But if there are actually certain trends, I'm struck by
(08:33):
that tell me that signal to me that Israel is
actually going to come out of these horrendous and shattering
few years in a much stronger position by every metric, geopolitically, economically,
from an innovation and science standpoint, militarily and secure from
a military and security standpoint. Actually, Israeli society while it's
(08:56):
going through a very tumultuous period, certainly on the eve
of elections an election season, but I actually think it's
going to some of the core tensions in his early society.
I think we're at the beginning of seeing them about
to be addressed, counterintuitively because of some issues that were
some fault lines that were exposed post October seventh. And
(09:17):
the real question mark for me is not Israel's gonna
be fine, right, the real and I don't say that
in a very life I'm not like just blowing like
I don't come wrong. There are very considerable challenges. So
but I think Israel will be fine. I The real
the jump ball for me is the diaspora, the Jewish
(09:40):
community here and elsewhere throughout the world. I'm much more
concerned now. I have some I see some hopeful signs there,
and I could see a path to some a very
positive future for Jewish life outside of Israel. But to me,
that is much more of a question mark than Israel's future.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
Absolutely, I'm in the exact same place. In fact, I
worry about America as a whole, far more that I
worry about Israel. Israel will be fine. America, I think,
might be heading in some bad directions unless it veers
off course, which I hope you know obviously it does.
You started calling me back during the pandemic, and it's
thrown to this, you know, amazing, very influential, widely listened
(10:22):
to podcast. Did you see that happening or was it
just something to do during our.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
Time doors not at all. We originally started as a
podcast because I had a lot of downtime and I
was having a lot of interesting conversations about what the
world would look like after the pandemic from not really
from a public health standpoint, but more economically and politically,
and also geopolitically, and so I was much more focused
(10:47):
on those themes. And like I said, it was it
was like a side the househole. It is just something
of spare time. We all had a lot of downtime.
As you said, you're indoors, you're and so my producer
is a close friend of mine, Alan Benattar, and I said,
you know, let's just start. I was already having these
conversations with interesting thinkers and thought leaders, so let's just
start recording some of them and releasing them. That's all
it was. Then October seventh happened. But prior to October seventh,
(11:10):
we would do episodes about Israel in the Middle East,
but it'd be like one every you know, five episodes
or something would be about Israel in the Middle East.
After October seventh happened, we quickly realized one of the
big holes, one of the big gaps was that there
were not conversations happening in a way that were easily
(11:31):
accessible by people around the world, of conversations of mostly
Israelis wrestling with these dilemmas like what are they supposed
to do? They've just been subjected. This war that they're
in is an impossible war, and impossible in terms of
the nature of the war they were fighting, and the
number of fronts they were fighting, and the existential nature
(11:52):
of the war they were fighting, and they just they
were wrestling with dilemmas and challenges and working through them.
And we in the West and others in the air
world didn't have access to these conversations now, partly because
these conversations were not happening in English, and so we
decided We're going to start just flooding the zone with
(12:15):
podcast episodes with conversations with Israelis that we knew who
were articulated in English, and they didn't always agree with
each other when we have them both on, you know,
we have Israelis on, or Israelis and Americans on. But
the point is, let's get rich interesting fact based anchor
to reality, anchor to what's actually going on, conversations as Israel,
(12:39):
and take people inside Israel as israel Is wrestling with
this moment and this path ahead. And that was it.
We had no idea what the audience would be like.
We had no idea.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
There was no.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
Whiteboard, there was no Our usual friend John pod Hortz,
I remember once said to me like a year and
a half later after he said, you know, had you
guys tried to map out what the show would become,
you would have never arrived at what you what you did.
And he's right about that, He's it was purely just
a feel. It was a feel for the conversations we
wanted to be having, conversations we thought were missing, And
(13:13):
turns out it found a found an audience.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
What would you be doing if not this, if it
wasn't these books, and it wasn't call me.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
Back, Well, the call me back and the books are
things I do on the side. I know that's hard, true, right,
I have it. They are they are I have a
I have it. I have a day job in the
investment world. These are these are I like to say,
I tell my wife, these are these are my golf games?
Like I don't play golf. Yeah. In fact, one episode
(13:42):
a week I record when when some of my friends
are playing golf on Sunday mornings. One episode a week
I record on Sunday mornings, early early Sunday morning, every Sunday.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
It's like going pro and golf on the side, Okay.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
I what would I be doing? I don't know, sleeping more.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
I guess, uh, maybe actually going prone golf.
Speaker 2 (14:02):
No, no, no, I wouldn't have the patience for golf.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
I'm too.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
I'm too. Golf requires and I really admire golf people
who play golf. I play basically no golf. It requires
incredible patients, incredible commitment, incredible amount of time. I just
I wouldn't be able to sit still more sleep. I'd
be definitely getting more.
Speaker 3 (14:22):
Since we're going to take a quick break and be
right back on the Carol Marcowitch Show.
Speaker 1 (14:32):
What are you most proud of in your life?
Speaker 2 (14:35):
I'll tell you what I'm I'm most proud of now,
and I think it will probably endure. My oldest son
just graduated high school last week.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
And and he's been at the same school since he
was in kindergarten, a Jewish day school in Manhattan on
the Upper West Side. And you know what, what is
a child graduating or reaching some kind of milestone or
life cycle event. And it is representative of many things,
(15:10):
and you kind of obviously their growth and there you know,
and you're the person they've become all those things, but
it also represents the passage of time. And I think
for my both my wife and myself. We we his
graduation because he was the same school from kindergarten literally
all the way right through the senior year. Yeah, so
you actually you think, wow, we've been in this community.
(15:32):
Like talk about the passage of time, it's a long time.
You know, you're talking about decade and a half to
two decades. And this Jewish community that where he went
graduate from and where our younger son is, you know,
is went to spend most of his schooling years at
has been the center of our of our life, of
our family life, of our communal life, of our of
(15:52):
our Jewish life. And and watching watching your kids grow
up in that kind of environment and not only becoming
proud Jews and literate Jews and people who appreciate the
joy of Judaism. But just like a basic it sounds small,
(16:15):
but it's not like a basic commitments, Like we made
a decision. We're not, you know, super observant Jews, but
we're probably more in our communities pluralists. So we have
Jews from all religious walks of life in our community
at the day school. But we made certain decisions, one
of which was we are going to have we don't
keep Shabbat probably as religiously as some Jews. But we
(16:39):
have Shabbat dinner religiously every Friday night. It's not even
like from our from when our kids are little. Every
Friday night, our kids know, we are at home with
each other, with other families can come over, or we
go to other people's homes in the community for shabout dinner.
But we're never we're never apart. We're never like you know,
being entertained somewhere that's not in a Jewish you know,
(17:01):
uh environment, part of the Jewish community, and there are
you know, children from our kids, Jewish community and our
community coming in and out of the home, you know,
home all throughout Shabbat, and that Shabbat becomes like an
anchor for our family and it's meaningful to us, of course,
it's like very grounding. It's almost like a check against
(17:22):
being unmoored in this crazy world that we live in.
And they love it. That's that's what's been amazing, is
they they love it. They cherish it. They went you know,
I can already see my older son, he's he's going
to go live in Israel for a year now. He's
graduated in September and then he's going off to college,
and I can already see he's that like what he
(17:44):
wants to be coming back for our Shabbat dinners. And
so I kind of you think about Shabbat and Shabbat
dinner as a as a as like a microcosm or
or or a metaphor for what it means to be
connected to family and to a community. And when you
see your kid come of age through that, ye and
(18:05):
you see how that kid is shaped, and you're like, wow,
I'm really sad this stage of his life with us
is over, but I'm so proud of who he has
become and and that it like it worked like this,
this thing we invested in, you know, but with with
time and energy and and and and and ritual worked
(18:31):
our kids. Like he's a great kid.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
Yeah, And that community is very hard to find, very
hard to forge. It's not an obvious thing that happens.
It's not something that happens with a lot of without
a lot of effort, and you should be very proud
of that. I love that answer.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
I'm like, I'm a little bit of an evangelist on this.
I really prescribe this. There's so many decisions people have
to make in life. If I had to, like point
to one, it's not just what I'm like most proud of,
but like, wow, like you you really this is some
thing I could not be more emphatic about recommending to
other people.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
I would say, I'm not signing you up for leading
another movement. I promise that to your wife. But I
do think that you would be such a good leader
for the movement of Jewish community. I think that what
you've talked about in the past, and I think what
you're saying right now is so important. And I think
it's very hard for a lot of people. I think
that you're when you say that you're not super observant,
(19:26):
but you still do it. It's that that is so
difficult for people that you don't have to do one
hundred percent. You could still live in the Jewish community
and do all these rituals and make it part of
your family. I nominate you to lead that.
Speaker 2 (19:39):
All right, all right, all right? If look when when
I'll tell my wife, I'll tell Campbell, this is your
idea project, you sign me up exactly.
Speaker 1 (19:51):
I'll take the blame, give us a five year out prediction,
and it could be about anything at all.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
I will give you a couple. Can I give you
a couple? I'll be love it.
Speaker 1 (20:01):
Yeah, Well, we'll check back in five years and see
if you're right.
Speaker 2 (20:04):
Okay, I do believe apropos of our of what we
talked about the beginning of this conversation. Not only do
I believe that Israel will come out of these this
horrendous period stronger, but I but I believe that you
are going to see deepening ties between Israel and many
countries in the Arab world. Uh normalizing ties. It's already
(20:26):
obviously happened with with Bahrain and the UAE in the
context of the Abraham Accords. I think that's going to
expand I think you we will be if Saudi Arabia
has had not has not normalized with Israel in five years,
it will definitely be on a path towards normalization. And
I think the Arab Israeli conflict as we know it
(20:47):
will basically be over. And you will see when you
think about these economic units around the world that people
always you know, economists and analysts and geopolitical strategist always
marvel at you know, whether it was this all this
hype around the EU and the EU, was this amazing
economic It turns out it wasn't so amazing, but anyways,
but there was always these these like these economic NAFTA,
(21:08):
the North American Free Trade Agreement that was like a unit,
you know, Canada and the United States, Mexico. There are
all these moments where people marvel at these at these
units and these new relationships. And I think you will
see something comparable between Israel, India, the UAE, the United
States and probably Saudi Arabia. UH that is going to
(21:33):
be that is going to be the economic consortium to watch. Israel, India, UAE,
US and probably Saudi Arabia will be a powerhouse of
a unit, and it will be transformative in the world
because it will be some of the largest pools of
capital and energy combined with some of the largest populations
(21:57):
and largest markets in the world like India, combined with
some of the most innovative from a technology and science
standpoint ecosystems in the world. Call it Tel Aviv and
Silicon Valley. So when you when you collect all of
those together working together, I think that is it is
going to be one of the most exciting stimulants in
(22:19):
the in the global economy and in a geopolitical powerhouse,
and I say, in five years, you'll hold me to it,
I'll come back on again. I'm not sure if the
I'm not sure the agreements will have been signed by
then on the White House lawn. But I think we
will be looking at what's happening between all those countries
and we will we will say in five years we're
farther along towards that outcome than we are today.
Speaker 1 (22:41):
So optimistic. I love it. I hope that you're right,
and I think that that's a really you know, a
positive prognosis for the world if that ends up happening.
Speaker 2 (22:50):
Can I give you a more trivial one.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
Ahead, give me a trivial one. I love it.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
The New York Jets are going to make it to
the playoffs?
Speaker 1 (22:57):
Oh stop it?
Speaker 2 (22:59):
Yeah, are really are? Which is, by the way, Okay,
that's a low bar. By the way, I'm not saying
they're going to like be in a Super Bowl. Okay,
I'm not going to get like greedy here, Okay, So
I'm just saying they they they have not. I'm not
going to start dating it because it's embarrassing, but they
have not made it to the postseason in a very
very very, very very long time. In fact, they're one
(23:20):
of the only professional sports franchises, if not the one
at this point, that has gone this long without making
it into a postseason game. And and I for a
variety of reasons, I think things are going to start
to come together and the Jets will make it into
the playoffs that I actually I'm willing to. I feel
strongly about that one.
Speaker 1 (23:40):
That one feels a little bit more far out to
me than the first one. We're are Dallas Cowboys here,
but the Jets are our second favorite team. Yeah, I
believe that peace in the Middle East.
Speaker 2 (23:52):
You think that that like the Arab Israeli conflict will
end soon, then the New York Jets will we root
for the winning season?
Speaker 1 (24:00):
Is our second page? Yeah, I know, I always. I
love your Jets tweets. Those are some of my favorites
for sure.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
Okay, keep it real, you know, keep it real. By
the way, I have a conversation for another time, being
a Jets fan and being a Jew there's a lot
of overlap, there's a lot of but we can do
that the other time.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
I hope one one turns out a little more positive
than the other.
Speaker 3 (24:19):
But Okay, Okay, we're going to take a quick break
and be right back on the Carol Marcowitch Show.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
Dan, I have loved this conversation. I always find you fascinating.
I'm going to start sending you rambling voice notes if
you you know that's what you're asking for here, leave
us here with your best tip for my listeners on
how they can improve their lives.
Speaker 2 (24:42):
Are these young people, older people, middle aged people.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
They have a real mix of men and women and
the age. The age really is, it's a widespread age
gap all kinds of people listen to the Carol Marco Show.
Speaker 2 (24:55):
All right, So I'm gonna I'm going to say the following.
First of all, a freebie I got in there just
based on what we talked before. Community, religious based community.
If you're not Jewish and you're listening to the show,
you know, I just think a religious values based, family
oriented community is very important, period. So let me that's
(25:15):
that's that's an obvious one, and I feel like I've
hammered that point. The second one sounds may sound a
little too practical, but indulge me. I was talking about
my son graduating high school. One of the things he
did outside of the scope of school is he and
nine of his buddies started a book club. Okay, ten
(25:36):
teenage boys started a book club, right, all eighteen eighteen
year old boys. They all, I would say they share
a kind of political outlook, but not I mean not,
I mean they're they're I would say, they're all sort
of center center right, A couple of are center left.
None of them are crazy right now are crazy left.
(25:56):
I'm not saying they don't all totally agree, but they're
basically and they and I've been meeting with them regularly.
They've recruited one of the teachers from their school to
meet with them regularly, who they really look up to.
And they basically committed. They started this as they were
so as school was winding down, as they all knew
where they're going to college, and everything's like over the
last few months, so they had more time in their hands,
and they committed to writing, to reading a book a
(26:17):
month and then they meet right. The first book they
did was nineteen eighty four George Orwell. The second book
they read is Fair no Evil by Natan Sharansky. They
recently read Christine Rosen's book The Extinction of Experience. They've
read Ben Sass's book. They're now reading Roy Altman's book.
These are great, right, He's great. But what I've been
(26:40):
struck by in watching them is, first of all, I
know this sounds sad and pathetic about to say, but
the art and the skill and the discipline of actually
reading a book is being lost on on more and
more Americans, especially young people, right, and so the and
I've told them the gods, this will only work if
(27:01):
you only do hard copies of the books. Don't read
it on a tablet, don't read on a kindle, don't
you Because there's something that there's a focus that is
necessary to actually hold when you're on a device and
there's things pinging you, and there's and you, oh, you
can quickly check something on chat GBT. What was that
referring to? And actually having to sit with a book
(27:21):
and start it and finish it is is it requires
its own focus, its own kind of solitude, and its
own discipline. And they thought I was crazy when I
said that if they're going to do this, that should
be a key requirement, which they've done. And so, so,
first of all, that being forced to read that way
is important. Two, then the time they spend together in
(27:46):
they argue about the book, they debate, they have rich
discussions about the book. They they just the social dynamics
of learning together. I think small groups of people learning
something together, or learning a text, learning about a book,
learning about an idea is one of the most important
(28:07):
things anybody will do in their life. And I just think,
now it's sort of like a statement of the obvious,
but I think in a world in which we are
becoming more atomized, more connected to devices, more having access
to knowledge and information or fingertips like you know, a
split second, the ability to get through life being completely
(28:30):
disconnected from people and from community and from friendships, that
on the one hand, may feel liberating, but I actually
think leads to people languishing and going into a bad place.
And in a world in which so many skills that
we think we need are going to become commoditized because
of technology, the basic art, the basic skill of learning
(28:54):
something with other people, engaging with them, reading social cues,
trying to persuade them, trying to debate, trying to you know,
reinforce you know, good behaviors and norms, all that kind
of intellectual in person form of community. I mean, its
own form of community. I think is is not only
(29:15):
important for your own mental health and for you and
for your own you know, happiness, but it will also
prove to be a very valuable skill professionally. I can't
tell you all the other things kids are learning these days,
or will be learning in college, how valuable will be
in five or ten or fifteen years. Who the hell knows,
given where the world is going. But being able to
(29:36):
be engaged with other people and exchange ideas with other people,
and win other win over and persuade other people. I
believe that's actually it will actually matter more. I actually
think it's going to matter more.
Speaker 1 (29:49):
So I love that community. Start a book club.
Speaker 2 (29:53):
Love it.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
He is Dan Senior. Check out The Genius of Israel
and check out his podcast Call Me Back. It's really wonderful. Dan,
thank you so much for coming on.
Speaker 2 (30:02):
Great to be with you. Carol. Thanks
Hi, and welcome back to the Carol Margot Show on iHeartRadio.
My guest today is Dan Seenor. Dan is the author
of the New York Times best selling book The Genius
of Israel and the host of Call Me Back. Hi, Dan.
So nice to have you on, Carol.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Great to be with you. I mean, it's great to
connect one way or the other. So yes, so.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
We'll have to do it. We'll have to do it
like this, you know. I have to say, I think
the thing I disagreed with you most through the time
that I've followed you is that you're a proponent of
voice notes, and I find them offensive and unacceptable. So
I rather do podcast than voice notes.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
I like voice notes over texting and emailing.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
No, such a wrong opinion, No, no, sorry, Well, first
of all, who uses voice notes the most? Israelis? And
how did they talk in like a I'm walking here
and I wanted to tell you, and it's like it
just goes on for ten minutes and.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Right right, right, right, Okay, you're fair. There's gonna be
some you know, there's gonna be some AI tool at
some point that will take Israeli voice memos, Israeli accented
English Voice memos and will will kind of just make
them very efficient. That'll be the next innovation out of
startup nation.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
That's true. That's exactly right. So your books and your
podcast are very pro Israel. It's a very good time
to be pro Israel. Obviously you must be very popular.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
Yeah, let's just say it's called buying on the dip.
You know, it's like it's like this is this is
someone say catching you know, catching a falling knife. But
whatever this is. It's lonely. But but you know, it's
one of those things like if you know, you know,
the people you know and appreciate it, really know and
appreciate it absolutely.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
So how did you get into this? How did you
start your podcast? What made you write these books about
the wonders that Israel is doing and accomplishing? What was
the start of all this?
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Each of them is there is its own story, has
its own origin story. The short version is I've been
involved with Jewish life and Israel and the US Israel
relationship for a long time. I grew up with it.
My parents were very involved. And then when I was
working in politics and government, I worked a lot on
(02:25):
foreign policy issues, so I was dealing a lot with Israel.
But the origin of the Book of Startup Nation, which
was the first time I was really out in a
very public way under my own name, was that I
had invested a number of Israeli startups and worked with
a number of Israeli entrepreneurs over the years, and I
just I found them to be some of the most
(02:46):
impressive entrepreneurs in the world. And what was amazing to
me is they represented so much to me, at least
of the vibrancy of Israel, of Israeli life, of Israeli culture,
of Israeli society, of the Israeli economy. And yet it
felt like virtually no one who had not been spending
(03:08):
time in Israel was aware of this part. If you
ask most people who didn't know much about Israel before
our book came out, what do they think of when
you say the word Israeli? What Israelis come to mind?
They would usually say people Israelis in uniform, the IDF,
or they would say Haredi Israeli's ultra Orthodox Jews. They
have an image of, or they think of like Kibbutzniks,
(03:29):
you know, sandals, people in sandals picking oranges. I mean,
these are the images. And I would say, what if
I told you that Israel has the most important and
dynamic innovation economy in the world after Silicon Valley, and
that actually most of Israel's economic growth and so much
of its dynamism is now expressed through these young largely today,
(03:51):
not entirely, but largely secular, very modern Western Israelis who
are building, developing these inventions that are solving some of
the world's most perplexing problems. And people are like what,
And I would say, this is it's a higher They
represent a higher percentage of Israel's labor force than say
the tech you know, tech workers do in the United
(04:12):
States of the US labor force. So I was just
struck that this story was not being told, that people
didn't know about this part of Israeli life. And my
co author Saul Singer, who lives in Israel, and he
at the time he was work he was a writer
for the Jerusalem Post. I said, why don't we write
a book explaining this phenomenon and what this segment of
(04:33):
Israeli life is, what the world can learn from it.
I took a group of thirty Harvard Business School students
to Israel in two thousand and two thousand and one,
and none of them had been to Israel. They were
blown away by what they saw there in terms of
this segment of Israeli life, and they were like, how
did Israel pull this off? How did they pull it
off in the least likely of places on the tech front,
(04:55):
on the innovation front. And so you add up all
these experiences and Saul and I decide, let's write a
book and we call it Startup Nation because it is
a startup nation. It's the highest density of has the
highest density of startups in the world, and it's and
it's like a double on tendre because the whole the
whole country is a startup. The modern state of Israel
is actually very entrepreneurial enterprise. And that's and so that
(05:18):
that book, you know, is what really got me out
there in a very public way, trying to explain Israel,
trying to figure out what we can learn from Israel,
and making the case for the US as a relationship.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
Did you think that you would have to be defending
Israel the way we all kind of have to right now?
This shortly after writing that kind of book, where Israel's
this Western country. It obviously has so much in common
with us, and your book shows not just the you know,
economics of it, but you talk about Israeli culture and
(05:54):
how they're the happiest people in the world and they're
the multi fulfilled and yet there's this disc act with
how they're portrayed around the world.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
I someone asked me yesterday it was a great question
if I if the book because the book was published
by Hashet Book Group, you know, it was like a
mainstream publisher. Our second book, The Genius of Israel, was
published by Simon and Schuster. They the person interviewing me said,
do you think your book said just take Startup Nation
(06:25):
could would have been published by a publisher like that
after October seventh? It was a great I had like
it had never occurred to me. I look, do I
feel completely jostled by these last few years? Like there's
there's no question. I mean, I knew there was hostility
(06:46):
to Israel around the world. I didn't. I could have
never imagined what has happened since October seven, twenty twenty three.
The way I explained it is I naively thought after
October seventh, twenty twenty three, as the world was processing
these images, these horrific, barbaric images that we were all processing.
(07:07):
My immediate reaction it was that the outrage of the
world will be finally directed at those people massacring Jews.
And what has has really shook me and hasn't stopped
shaking me, is that I soon learned that the outrage
(07:27):
of the world was actually, very quickly after October seventh,
almost immediately directed at Jews for objecting to being massacred. Yeah,
and that reality is something I have not gotten over,
and I tragically think to some degree it's our new reality.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
Yeah, you know, I would say an optimistic looking forward.
I mean, this show is very like the future Predictions
and how to Live Better and all of that. I
could easily see you writing a third book in ten
years about how Israel overcame all this and succeeded despite
all of it, and that it made it. I'm already there,
(08:09):
better and stronger, right, I'm already actually it's already happening. Right.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
No, no, no, no, not, I'm not writing that book. I mean,
I think my wife will kill me if I tell
I'm writing another book. But no, I I I'm of
that view. I'm actually of the view that Israel will
come out of this already is that you can already
see certain trends. People aren't focusing on them, which I understand.
But if there are actually certain trends, I'm struck by
(08:33):
that tell me that signal to me that Israel is
actually going to come out of these horrendous and shattering
few years in a much stronger position by every metric, geopolitically, economically,
from an innovation and science standpoint, militarily and secure from
a military and security standpoint. Actually, Israeli society while it's
(08:56):
going through a very tumultuous period, certainly on the eve
of elections an election season, but I actually think it's
going to some of the core tensions in his early society.
I think we're at the beginning of seeing them about
to be addressed, counterintuitively because of some issues that were
some fault lines that were exposed post October seventh. And
(09:17):
the real question mark for me is not Israel's gonna
be fine, right, the real and I don't say that
in a very life I'm not like just blowing like
I don't come wrong. There are very considerable challenges. So
but I think Israel will be fine. I The real
the jump ball for me is the diaspora, the Jewish
(09:40):
community here and elsewhere throughout the world. I'm much more
concerned now. I have some I see some hopeful signs there,
and I could see a path to some a very
positive future for Jewish life outside of Israel. But to me,
that is much more of a question mark than Israel's future.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
Absolutely, I'm in the exact same place. In fact, I
worry about America as a whole, far more that I
worry about Israel. Israel will be fine. America, I think,
might be heading in some bad directions unless it veers
off course, which I hope you know obviously it does.
You started calling me back during the pandemic, and it's
thrown to this, you know, amazing, very influential, widely listened
(10:22):
to podcast. Did you see that happening or was it
just something to do during our.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
Time doors not at all. We originally started as a
podcast because I had a lot of downtime and I
was having a lot of interesting conversations about what the
world would look like after the pandemic from not really
from a public health standpoint, but more economically and politically,
and also geopolitically, and so I was much more focused
(10:47):
on those themes. And like I said, it was it
was like a side the househole. It is just something
of spare time. We all had a lot of downtime.
As you said, you're indoors, you're and so my producer
is a close friend of mine, Alan Benattar, and I said,
you know, let's just start. I was already having these
conversations with interesting thinkers and thought leaders, so let's just
start recording some of them and releasing them. That's all
it was. Then October seventh happened. But prior to October seventh,
(11:10):
we would do episodes about Israel in the Middle East,
but it'd be like one every you know, five episodes
or something would be about Israel in the Middle East.
After October seventh happened, we quickly realized one of the
big holes, one of the big gaps was that there
were not conversations happening in a way that were easily
(11:31):
accessible by people around the world, of conversations of mostly
Israelis wrestling with these dilemmas like what are they supposed
to do? They've just been subjected. This war that they're
in is an impossible war, and impossible in terms of
the nature of the war they were fighting, and the
number of fronts they were fighting, and the existential nature
(11:52):
of the war they were fighting, and they just they
were wrestling with dilemmas and challenges and working through them.
And we in the West and others in the air
world didn't have access to these conversations now, partly because
these conversations were not happening in English, and so we
decided We're going to start just flooding the zone with
(12:15):
podcast episodes with conversations with Israelis that we knew who
were articulated in English, and they didn't always agree with
each other when we have them both on, you know,
we have Israelis on, or Israelis and Americans on. But
the point is, let's get rich interesting fact based anchor
to reality, anchor to what's actually going on, conversations as Israel,
(12:39):
and take people inside Israel as israel Is wrestling with
this moment and this path ahead. And that was it.
We had no idea what the audience would be like.
We had no idea.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
There was no.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
Whiteboard, there was no Our usual friend John pod Hortz,
I remember once said to me like a year and
a half later after he said, you know, had you
guys tried to map out what the show would become,
you would have never arrived at what you what you did.
And he's right about that, He's it was purely just
a feel. It was a feel for the conversations we
wanted to be having, conversations we thought were missing, And
(13:13):
turns out it found a found an audience.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
What would you be doing if not this, if it
wasn't these books, and it wasn't call me.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
Back, Well, the call me back and the books are
things I do on the side. I know that's hard, true, right,
I have it. They are they are I have a
I have it. I have a day job in the
investment world. These are these are I like to say,
I tell my wife, these are these are my golf games?
Like I don't play golf. Yeah. In fact, one episode
(13:42):
a week I record when when some of my friends
are playing golf on Sunday mornings. One episode a week
I record on Sunday mornings, early early Sunday morning, every Sunday.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
It's like going pro and golf on the side, Okay.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
I what would I be doing? I don't know, sleeping more.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
I guess, uh, maybe actually going prone golf.
Speaker 2 (14:02):
No, no, no, I wouldn't have the patience for golf.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
I'm too.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
I'm too. Golf requires and I really admire golf people
who play golf. I play basically no golf. It requires
incredible patients, incredible commitment, incredible amount of time. I just
I wouldn't be able to sit still more sleep. I'd
be definitely getting more.
Speaker 3 (14:22):
Since we're going to take a quick break and be
right back on the Carol Marcowitch Show.
Speaker 1 (14:32):
What are you most proud of in your life?
Speaker 2 (14:35):
I'll tell you what I'm I'm most proud of now,
and I think it will probably endure. My oldest son
just graduated high school last week.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
And and he's been at the same school since he
was in kindergarten, a Jewish day school in Manhattan on
the Upper West Side. And you know what, what is
a child graduating or reaching some kind of milestone or
life cycle event. And it is representative of many things,
(15:10):
and you kind of obviously their growth and there you know,
and you're the person they've become all those things, but
it also represents the passage of time. And I think
for my both my wife and myself. We we his
graduation because he was the same school from kindergarten literally
all the way right through the senior year. Yeah, so
you actually you think, wow, we've been in this community.
(15:32):
Like talk about the passage of time, it's a long time.
You know, you're talking about decade and a half to
two decades. And this Jewish community that where he went
graduate from and where our younger son is, you know,
is went to spend most of his schooling years at
has been the center of our of our life, of
our family life, of our communal life, of our of
(15:52):
our Jewish life. And and watching watching your kids grow
up in that kind of environment and not only becoming
proud Jews and literate Jews and people who appreciate the
joy of Judaism. But just like a basic it sounds small,
(16:15):
but it's not like a basic commitments, Like we made
a decision. We're not, you know, super observant Jews, but
we're probably more in our communities pluralists. So we have
Jews from all religious walks of life in our community
at the day school. But we made certain decisions, one
of which was we are going to have we don't
keep Shabbat probably as religiously as some Jews. But we
(16:39):
have Shabbat dinner religiously every Friday night. It's not even
like from our from when our kids are little. Every
Friday night, our kids know, we are at home with
each other, with other families can come over, or we
go to other people's homes in the community for shabout dinner.
But we're never we're never apart. We're never like you know,
being entertained somewhere that's not in a Jewish you know,
(17:01):
uh environment, part of the Jewish community, and there are
you know, children from our kids, Jewish community and our
community coming in and out of the home, you know,
home all throughout Shabbat, and that Shabbat becomes like an
anchor for our family and it's meaningful to us, of course,
it's like very grounding. It's almost like a check against
(17:22):
being unmoored in this crazy world that we live in.
And they love it. That's that's what's been amazing, is
they they love it. They cherish it. They went you know,
I can already see my older son, he's he's going
to go live in Israel for a year now. He's
graduated in September and then he's going off to college,
and I can already see he's that like what he
(17:44):
wants to be coming back for our Shabbat dinners. And
so I kind of you think about Shabbat and Shabbat
dinner as a as a as like a microcosm or
or or a metaphor for what it means to be
connected to family and to a community. And when you
see your kid come of age through that, ye and
(18:05):
you see how that kid is shaped, and you're like, wow,
I'm really sad this stage of his life with us
is over, but I'm so proud of who he has
become and and that it like it worked like this,
this thing we invested in, you know, but with with
time and energy and and and and and ritual worked
(18:31):
our kids. Like he's a great kid.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
Yeah, And that community is very hard to find, very
hard to forge. It's not an obvious thing that happens.
It's not something that happens with a lot of without
a lot of effort, and you should be very proud
of that. I love that answer.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
I'm like, I'm a little bit of an evangelist on this.
I really prescribe this. There's so many decisions people have
to make in life. If I had to, like point
to one, it's not just what I'm like most proud of,
but like, wow, like you you really this is some
thing I could not be more emphatic about recommending to
other people.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
I would say, I'm not signing you up for leading
another movement. I promise that to your wife. But I
do think that you would be such a good leader
for the movement of Jewish community. I think that what
you've talked about in the past, and I think what
you're saying right now is so important. And I think
it's very hard for a lot of people. I think
that you're when you say that you're not super observant,
(19:26):
but you still do it. It's that that is so
difficult for people that you don't have to do one
hundred percent. You could still live in the Jewish community
and do all these rituals and make it part of
your family. I nominate you to lead that.
Speaker 2 (19:39):
All right, all right, all right? If look when when
I'll tell my wife, I'll tell Campbell, this is your
idea project, you sign me up exactly.
Speaker 1 (19:51):
I'll take the blame, give us a five year out prediction,
and it could be about anything at all.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
I will give you a couple. Can I give you
a couple? I'll be love it.
Speaker 1 (20:01):
Yeah, Well, we'll check back in five years and see
if you're right.
Speaker 2 (20:04):
Okay, I do believe apropos of our of what we
talked about the beginning of this conversation. Not only do
I believe that Israel will come out of these this
horrendous period stronger, but I but I believe that you
are going to see deepening ties between Israel and many
countries in the Arab world. Uh normalizing ties. It's already
(20:26):
obviously happened with with Bahrain and the UAE in the
context of the Abraham Accords. I think that's going to
expand I think you we will be if Saudi Arabia
has had not has not normalized with Israel in five years,
it will definitely be on a path towards normalization. And
I think the Arab Israeli conflict as we know it
(20:47):
will basically be over. And you will see when you
think about these economic units around the world that people
always you know, economists and analysts and geopolitical strategist always
marvel at you know, whether it was this all this
hype around the EU and the EU, was this amazing
economic It turns out it wasn't so amazing, but anyways,
but there was always these these like these economic NAFTA,
(21:08):
the North American Free Trade Agreement that was like a unit,
you know, Canada and the United States, Mexico. There are
all these moments where people marvel at these at these
units and these new relationships. And I think you will
see something comparable between Israel, India, the UAE, the United
States and probably Saudi Arabia. UH that is going to
(21:33):
be that is going to be the economic consortium to watch. Israel, India, UAE,
US and probably Saudi Arabia will be a powerhouse of
a unit, and it will be transformative in the world
because it will be some of the largest pools of
capital and energy combined with some of the largest populations
(21:57):
and largest markets in the world like India, combined with
some of the most innovative from a technology and science
standpoint ecosystems in the world. Call it Tel Aviv and
Silicon Valley. So when you when you collect all of
those together working together, I think that is it is
going to be one of the most exciting stimulants in
(22:19):
the in the global economy and in a geopolitical powerhouse,
and I say, in five years, you'll hold me to it,
I'll come back on again. I'm not sure if the
I'm not sure the agreements will have been signed by
then on the White House lawn. But I think we
will be looking at what's happening between all those countries
and we will we will say in five years we're
farther along towards that outcome than we are today.
Speaker 1 (22:41):
So optimistic. I love it. I hope that you're right,
and I think that that's a really you know, a
positive prognosis for the world if that ends up happening.
Speaker 2 (22:50):
Can I give you a more trivial one.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
Ahead, give me a trivial one. I love it.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
The New York Jets are going to make it to
the playoffs?
Speaker 1 (22:57):
Oh stop it?
Speaker 2 (22:59):
Yeah, are really are? Which is, by the way, Okay,
that's a low bar. By the way, I'm not saying
they're going to like be in a Super Bowl. Okay,
I'm not going to get like greedy here, Okay, So
I'm just saying they they they have not. I'm not
going to start dating it because it's embarrassing, but they
have not made it to the postseason in a very
very very, very very long time. In fact, they're one
(23:20):
of the only professional sports franchises, if not the one
at this point, that has gone this long without making
it into a postseason game. And and I for a
variety of reasons, I think things are going to start
to come together and the Jets will make it into
the playoffs that I actually I'm willing to. I feel
strongly about that one.
Speaker 1 (23:40):
That one feels a little bit more far out to
me than the first one. We're are Dallas Cowboys here,
but the Jets are our second favorite team. Yeah, I
believe that peace in the Middle East.
Speaker 2 (23:52):
You think that that like the Arab Israeli conflict will
end soon, then the New York Jets will we root
for the winning season?
Speaker 1 (24:00):
Is our second page? Yeah, I know, I always. I
love your Jets tweets. Those are some of my favorites
for sure.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
Okay, keep it real, you know, keep it real. By
the way, I have a conversation for another time, being
a Jets fan and being a Jew there's a lot
of overlap, there's a lot of but we can do
that the other time.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
I hope one one turns out a little more positive
than the other.
Speaker 3 (24:19):
But Okay, Okay, we're going to take a quick break
and be right back on the Carol Marcowitch Show.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
Dan, I have loved this conversation. I always find you fascinating.
I'm going to start sending you rambling voice notes if
you you know that's what you're asking for here, leave
us here with your best tip for my listeners on
how they can improve their lives.
Speaker 2 (24:42):
Are these young people, older people, middle aged people.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
They have a real mix of men and women and
the age. The age really is, it's a widespread age
gap all kinds of people listen to the Carol Marco Show.
Speaker 2 (24:55):
All right, So I'm gonna I'm going to say the following.
First of all, a freebie I got in there just
based on what we talked before. Community, religious based community.
If you're not Jewish and you're listening to the show,
you know, I just think a religious values based, family
oriented community is very important, period. So let me that's
(25:15):
that's that's an obvious one, and I feel like I've
hammered that point. The second one sounds may sound a
little too practical, but indulge me. I was talking about
my son graduating high school. One of the things he
did outside of the scope of school is he and
nine of his buddies started a book club. Okay, ten
(25:36):
teenage boys started a book club, right, all eighteen eighteen
year old boys. They all, I would say they share
a kind of political outlook, but not I mean not,
I mean they're they're I would say, they're all sort
of center center right, A couple of are center left.
None of them are crazy right now are crazy left.
(25:56):
I'm not saying they don't all totally agree, but they're
basically and they and I've been meeting with them regularly.
They've recruited one of the teachers from their school to
meet with them regularly, who they really look up to.
And they basically committed. They started this as they were
so as school was winding down, as they all knew
where they're going to college, and everything's like over the
last few months, so they had more time in their hands,
and they committed to writing, to reading a book a
(26:17):
month and then they meet right. The first book they
did was nineteen eighty four George Orwell. The second book
they read is Fair no Evil by Natan Sharansky. They
recently read Christine Rosen's book The Extinction of Experience. They've
read Ben Sass's book. They're now reading Roy Altman's book.
These are great, right, He's great. But what I've been
(26:40):
struck by in watching them is, first of all, I
know this sounds sad and pathetic about to say, but
the art and the skill and the discipline of actually
reading a book is being lost on on more and
more Americans, especially young people, right, and so the and
I've told them the gods, this will only work if
(27:01):
you only do hard copies of the books. Don't read
it on a tablet, don't read on a kindle, don't
you Because there's something that there's a focus that is
necessary to actually hold when you're on a device and
there's things pinging you, and there's and you, oh, you
can quickly check something on chat GBT. What was that
referring to? And actually having to sit with a book
(27:21):
and start it and finish it is is it requires
its own focus, its own kind of solitude, and its
own discipline. And they thought I was crazy when I
said that if they're going to do this, that should
be a key requirement, which they've done. And so, so,
first of all, that being forced to read that way
is important. Two, then the time they spend together in
(27:46):
they argue about the book, they debate, they have rich
discussions about the book. They they just the social dynamics
of learning together. I think small groups of people learning
something together, or learning a text, learning about a book,
learning about an idea is one of the most important
(28:07):
things anybody will do in their life. And I just think,
now it's sort of like a statement of the obvious,
but I think in a world in which we are
becoming more atomized, more connected to devices, more having access
to knowledge and information or fingertips like you know, a
split second, the ability to get through life being completely
(28:30):
disconnected from people and from community and from friendships, that
on the one hand, may feel liberating, but I actually
think leads to people languishing and going into a bad place.
And in a world in which so many skills that
we think we need are going to become commoditized because
of technology, the basic art, the basic skill of learning
(28:54):
something with other people, engaging with them, reading social cues,
trying to persuade them, trying to debate, trying to you know,
reinforce you know, good behaviors and norms, all that kind
of intellectual in person form of community. I mean, its
own form of community. I think is is not only
(29:15):
important for your own mental health and for you and
for your own you know, happiness, but it will also
prove to be a very valuable skill professionally. I can't
tell you all the other things kids are learning these days,
or will be learning in college, how valuable will be
in five or ten or fifteen years. Who the hell knows,
given where the world is going. But being able to
(29:36):
be engaged with other people and exchange ideas with other people,
and win other win over and persuade other people. I
believe that's actually it will actually matter more. I actually
think it's going to matter more.
Speaker 1 (29:49):
So I love that community. Start a book club.
Speaker 2 (29:53):
Love it.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
He is Dan Senior. Check out The Genius of Israel
and check out his podcast Call Me Back. It's really wonderful. Dan,
thank you so much for coming on.
Speaker 2 (30:02):
Great to be with you. Carol. Thanks
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