On this episode of The Karol Markowicz Show, Karol sits down with Dr. Helen Smith—psychologist, bestselling author of Men on Strike, and author of the new book His Side: Men Speak Out on Dating, Marriage, and Life in America.
Drawing on years of research and firsthand interviews, Dr. Smith explains why so many men feel overlooked, disrespected, and disconnected in modern society. She discusses the changing dynamics of dating and marriage, the importance of fathers, how boys are navigating today's culture, and why she believes listening to men's experiences has become more important than ever.
Karol and Dr. Smith also explore the impact of social media, education, workplace culture, and public policy on young men, while offering practical advice for parents raising sons in today's world. The conversation concludes with a discussion about empathy, family, and why meaningful dialogue between men and women is essential for a healthier society.
Follow Clay & Buck on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/clayandbuck
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Listen
Watch
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hi, and welcome back to the Carol Marko Wood Show
on iHeartRadio. My guest today is doctor Helen Smith, author
of Men on Strike and author of the fantastic new
book His Side, Men speak out on dating, marriage and
life in America. Hi, Helen, so nice to have you on.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Yeah, Carol, thank you so much for invioting me on
your show. I appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
A longtime fan of yours. You and your husband are
some of my absolute favorite people of the Internet that
I've met. And I'm very excited about your new book
and think it's addressing something that needs addressing. And I
wanted to read just a little bit from your book
because it really struck me that most men in America
(00:48):
accept the fact that they are often treated as second
class citizens without questioning what is happening and why, or
they understand it and feel nothing can be done. The
system is stacked against them. How did this happen? Where
did men lose their way or where did the society
lose the men?
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Yeah, I think it's the latter. I think society kind
of lost men. You know, we have all these experts
in people that come out and talk about how men
have lost their way and how they're all a bunch
of failures, this, that, and the other. It's been going
on for a long time. Honestly, I think since the
sixties are probably you know where there's this big political shift.
And I know you do a lot on politics and
that sort of things, but we've seen this political shift.
(01:28):
And that's what my first book was about Men on Straw,
which looked at I wrote that in twenty twelve, twenty thirteen,
it came out, but it looked at that societal shift
that happened in the sixties, shifting over to it's almost
like our whole society has changed over to everybody thinking
and that men are horrible and denigrating men, and it's
gotten worse. I think with the Internet and the ability
(01:52):
for so many people to get on and do have
sort of an echo chamber where they, you know, where
they just don't have any respect for men. And I
think lack of respect even when men tell me, oh,
I'm fine or you know. I think it has infiltrated
into the culture and infiltrated into the lives of both
(02:13):
men and women. And I think we see this with
how many men don't want to get married or men
want to be fathers. They want to get married more
so than women. But there's this whole disconnect now between
young men who are able to get married and those
women who want something more. And the Internet, of course
and apps have made that much worse. And I think
(02:34):
that's why I was so interested in doing this next book,
because it's sort of a you know, it takes from
Men on Track, which is sort of a polemic, just
sort of looking at you know, how did this happen
and why, and you know, what are the different avenues?
And now I wanted to see individual men, Like we
don't talk to individual men. We talk about men, but
(02:56):
we don't talk to them, and so I think that's
what the book. To me. It was different because I
actually went and just sat with men and talked to
them for a year and it was just so fascinating.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
Did you have any surprising discoveries while writing his side?
Speaker 2 (03:14):
The biggest discovery that I had that surprised me the
most wasn't to do with the men. It was to
do with women. I was surprised that the women cared
so much, and that women are the ones who are
reading the book. I thought it would be men trying
to pitch it to men. But I've noticed that most
people who are reading the book are women, and with his,
with my first book, men On Strike, it as majority men.
So that's what surprises me. And it surprises me now
(03:34):
how much more some of the women who read it
care in a way that they didn't care before. So
that makes me feel really positive about the way that
women feel, and maybe there is some change. We do
see a lot more about these sort of and I'm
not a traditional wife, and I don't you know, but
we see a lot more of that, you know, in
(03:55):
on TikTok or on you know, on Instagram and all
these places about traditional wives or women. Maybe they're going
on to get hits, I don't know, but at least
they're talking in positive ways about men, And people are
always asking me how I feel, like, oh, well, what
do you think about these trad wives coming on whatever?
At least is they're not negative. At least they're saying, Hey,
I'm going to make my man a sandwich. That's got
to be better that I hate men, right, sure?
Speaker 1 (04:18):
Absolutely, you talk about in your book the book Self
Made Man. It was a two thousand and six book
for anybody who doesn't know with this fantastic writer, Nora Vincent,
and she went undercover as a man. And I remember
reading that book No. Two thousand and six. I was,
I can't do math, but I was fairly young, and
(04:40):
I thought I thought women had it harder. I thought
women had it tougher than men did, for sure. And
I remember reading that book and Nora comes out of
it being like, thank God, I'm a woman and being
a man is so difficult. I remember that really did
sort of alter my perspective on what being a man
(05:00):
is like in our culture. Do you think that we're
lacking those kinds of perspectives? Maybe people just don't understand
how hard it is to be a man.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
I don't think people understand, But I think the bigger
thing is that most women don't care. And that's what
men tell me is I think that women they have
been fed such a pack of I'm not going to
say lies. Obviously in some context women have it harder,
but I don't think that's the issue. The issue is
what's happening. I mean, you know, as a psychologist with men,
my interest is in like, what are men dealing with
(05:29):
in society? How are they feeling? And I think it's
not a matter of harder, it's a matter of what's
happening in this society right now, how are men doing.
And what we see is a lot of men feeling
that they are disrespected and that they don't really have
a place or a purpose in society, and young men
and older men with no place or purpose. Very very
negative society for everybody. And I'm not one of those people.
(05:51):
There's a lot of experts and they always talk about
always trying to clarify that they're only you know, they're
only doing this so women can have a better life
because they need men. I only care that men have
a better life. I mean, I'm glad of women do,
but that's not my writing and interest is in men,
and you know, and they have a better life. And
so yes, I think that men do have a very
hard time, and I talk about it in my book.
(06:13):
But one of the things that's really struck me is
that people don't realize that the hard time is that
nobody really cares if you're a man. Like women, I
think people are so used to people asking us our feelings,
or if you're a woman, they just think that you
care or they think that you're a certain way, and
I find it sort of funny because I'm not really
that way. I'm sort of I don't know, like I
(06:33):
just growing up and seeing people I never was the
kind of person like I am always trying to rationally
think through a problem. I don't really. I think a
lot of women want to be heard. And the funny
thing I found, going back to what you were asking
me before, one of the things that it didn't surprise me.
But what's interesting is men were so happy to be heard.
So when I would give them two or three hours,
(06:53):
they would be like, oh my gosh, Like one guy
talked to me for four hours, and it's just like
they really really enjoy having their always heard. And I
really think that people don't. We've lost our ability or
maybe we never had it to talk with men and
to draw them out. People think men don't talk, but
they really do.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
Maybe we're just not letting them get a word in.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
I think we're not letting get a word in. And
we don't like the words that they say. So when
a man does a woman, he's not gonna like it.
If the man says, like, you know, I don't like
being disrespected, or you know what, I don't like the
way that women are. You know, if they say anything,
they're a massagynists.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
Right.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
If I say that, I'm like excriminated it. At work,
all He's told is I get men all the time
writing me telling me, you know, I went to work.
The women they do whatever they want. They talk in
front of me, they say anything. If it's a male nurse,
they tell me that they were told as a man
they better get out there and start, you know, lifting, carrying,
doing all these things that if they did to a woman,
(07:50):
everybody would be up in arms. And I think that
we just expect a lot of things from men that
we would never expect from a normal worker, and we
expect them to tolerate it and not argue and not
have any feedback. And I think that's what people in
an impossible situation, and it leads to just a feeling
of frustration and anger, and eventually there's almost like I
(08:12):
don't want It's almost like a learned helplessness. And I
don't think it's helpless. I just think the men that
I interviewed ors just sort of like, eh, you know,
what can you do?
Speaker 1 (08:20):
Right?
Speaker 2 (08:20):
That's what anaciety is.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
It sounds a little bit like a masculization, right, like
that they get emasculated in these situations and they're not
allowed to be who they are actually born to be.
Is that Is there any truth to that?
Speaker 2 (08:38):
Yeah? I mean I think they are being who they are,
but I think the society doesn't like it. And I
really think it has to do with a political bent.
It really is that the elites now want people. They
want to destroy families they don't want, they don't like
the nuclear family, and they want to denegrate men. And
there are so many men now, there's almost this thing.
A man recently sent me a book called, Oh Gosh,
(08:59):
it was No Love with Nowhere to Go, and he
talked a lot about how as a father he had
been just thrown out of his children's lives and he
doesn't understand why did he do something? Probably, but we
now it's almost like a popular thing to just toss
your dad and your mom too. I mean, we talked
about these toxic parents. But I think as a psychologist,
(09:22):
I've just seen I think a lot of it has
to do and I put the blame squarely on my profession.
I think part of it is that as psychologists, or
not even as the mental health profession has really turned
everyone into a victim. And if you have any problem,
you're supposed to just get rid of anything and make
sure that you know, if something's bothering you, just get
rid of it, you know, just do away with it.
If it's a man now, if it's something else.
Speaker 1 (09:44):
Right, Yeah, do you have any advice for mom's d
you know, raising boys in this culture? What do you
say to people who want their sons to turn out differently,
to not have these same issues. I have a daughter
and two sons. I always say it's unfair that it's
like there's so much more geared at my daughter than
(10:06):
at my son's and there's so much more push for
her to succeed, and just so many opportunities that I
think that are pushed her away that I just don't
see the same thing happening for boys now.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
And that's what the men told me. And I didn't
get the chance to interview young fratman and they were
twenty one and twenty two, and they all said the
same thing. They said, you girls, And they try to
be nice about it, but essentially boils down to girls
and women have a support group and we you know,
like a system, and one reason I think boys are
afraid to fail is they don't have that system in place.
Nobody is really going to help them, so if they fail,
there's nowhere to go. But I would say to moms,
(10:42):
I would say a lot of moms do really care.
But the thing is you have to direct the caring,
not at talking about what a loser your son is,
or I think that you have to realize that your
son has a lot of underlying feelings that you may
not understand, and that you don't it's not necessarily that
you understand them, but it's necessary that you be there
to talk with him or to let him sometimes vent
(11:04):
who he is. I think a lot of moms feel
like their sons aren't doing well, But I think you
have to present those things to your son, and you
have to let them know. Sometimes you know things happen.
For example, you know if you go if you know
there is discrimination against boys, and yes things are harder
for you at well you go to college, and yes,
(11:24):
these colleges are going to turn on you more readily
than a girl if they if you step out of wong.
And I think sometimes you do have to warn and
help your son to understand that. However, I think it's
also important to realize that boys have a lot of feelings,
and I think people do things to boys, such as
move them around a lot, or think that nothing bothers
them because they don't speak up and they're quiet. As
(11:47):
a psychologist in the schools, I found that a lot
of people would say, well, I didn't know he was
depressed because he seems free. And a mother has to
understand that boys have a different way of expression, and
the expression might be more anger or withdrawal, and both
of the signal to the mom to say, hey, wait
a second, if my son's angry again, it's not a
(12:08):
matter of fault. It's just a matter of there's something happening,
and how can I get at what is going on,
not in an intrusive way, but maybe by being there
by letting the boy talk to you, and not by
putting the daughter first. I think people don't. I talked
to so many moms, and honestly, I don't even know
they had a son, Like they might have a daughter
and a son, and all I've heard about is the daughter.
(12:30):
So it's kind of like I've had moms tell me
their sons an a hole I've had them, and I'm like, wow,
you know, really, you know that's rough. I mean, that's
what they think of their sons. Maybe they are, but
is it really going to help to say that that's
so tough?
Speaker 1 (12:44):
Not even knowing they had boys is like I could
see that. I could see that, and I mean not
I definitely talk about my sons quite a bit as
much as I talk about my daughter, but I could
see that the girls are just elevated and put on
a pedestal still in a way that I just don't
see boys in the same way. I mean, I remember
my daughter noticing that all the shirts at like Target
(13:08):
had like, you know, the future is female or girl power,
and she realized that the boys don't, and she's like,
are they just telling me this because we don't have
power and because the future is not female? Like she
sort of saw it as a live being sold to her.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
It doesn't lie being sold to her. But at the
same time, it's a worse message to the boys because
it sends this awful message. So my worry is more
towards the boys. And yet you a lie. It is
a lie. Why are you telling that people with power
don't go around I have power. It's ridiculous. I thought
that when I was young, i'd see people talking about
these women in their empowerment. You know, if you talk
about empowerment, you're not empowered. You've got other issues. But
(13:47):
empowerment comes from doing things and being things. And the
thing is, boys are full of action and they want
to do things, they want to be things, and you know,
they don't necessarily want to talk about it. They want
to be about it. But as a boy, sometimes you
can't be about it in our society because you're told
you there. I have young men who tell me that
they wanted to do a sport. The sport wasn't available
(14:09):
at their school because of Title nine. They weren't allowed
to better facilities or to do anything. One boy told
me him and his high school friends try to raise
money to have a better dressing room. They were dressing
in a barn and they couldn't because it wouldn't it
wasn't fair because the girls didn't have this or that,
(14:29):
and there was no girls team. So, you know, I
think there are a lot of issues, and you know,
people always point out, well, it starts out in a
good way. You know, people are positive, they're just trying
to be good with girls. But you know what, it's
gone to the other extreme, and it's so extreme, and
nobody wants to pull back and say, well, wait a second,
there is something wrong with what you're doing to men
and boys. I mean it is it is discrimination, it
(14:50):
is unfairness, and boys pick up on it. They're extremely
sensitive to that. And if you think they're not listening
to you, I guarantee you one hundred percent they are
watching you. And they understand the hypocritical nature that adults
have towards young men, particularly young I mean no minority
men too, but young white man and young black man.
(15:12):
I mean, I've it pends, but I've seen it on
all sides. It's just if you're a boy or a
man in our society's there's a grown at you.
Speaker 1 (15:22):
We're going to take a quick break and be right
back on the Carol Marcowitch Show. I love that your
focus stays on the boys. And it's actually surprising to
me a little bit that you got pushed back on, like, oh,
you know, we have to make boys better so that
it's better for girls. But I really I like that
you maintain the focus on the boys. Is there structural
(15:46):
solutions that you have in mind for this kind of
problem when you were writing his side. I know publishers
love you know, now fix this problem. Do you have
a fix or any kind of thoughts about.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
Where we matter of one type of fix. But I
think I think partly some of the stuff like the
Trump administration is doing. People don't realize that, but it
is quietly doing a lot of things. For example, in
the schools, in the colleges. You know, you had the
Dear Obama, the Dear Colleige letter sent by the Obama
administration that had no due process for men, that would
use like one single aspect of a college to make
(16:19):
a decision about whether a boy had, you know, sexually
harassed somebody or looked at them the wrong way, or
done something. And I think they've pushed back on a
lot of that also, Deied, it's really really hard for men. Obviously,
there aren't as many opportunities. People don't want to hire
a white man. I can't tell you how many of
the men in my book, or just men I talked
to in general, tell me we're not hiring a white man.
(16:41):
It happens that all the colleges across the country. Happens
all the time. We're not hiring a white man. It's
just you know, and it's like they just feel people
feel very free to say that in the same way
they say, you know, I hate dad or whatever. But
people don't generally if you say you hate your mother,
it's a little different people. I mean, it's people do it,
(17:02):
but it's still it's much worse if you know, if
you said against a woman. But I would say the
DEI the breakdown of that, I think there is coming down.
I think those are the things that are directly discriminatory
against men. I would say those the school systems we need.
We have very few role models. I talk a lot
about that fathers in the book, how important they are.
(17:24):
You know, we just had Father's Day. And it's just
that men are doing more and more work now, and
they are spending more and more time with children, and
at the same time they're also expected to be a
man to provide for families. We have readers that shows
most people in the United States field that men are
still supposed to provide for the family, much more so
than women. And at the same time, they're all supposed
supposed to be taking care of all the kids and
(17:45):
doing you know, so it's just a lot. We've put
a lot on men and we are asking you know women. Yes,
they're coming into the workplace, but there's a lot of
accolades and there's a lot of support for that. I
would also say that I do think governmental changes, but
I think so other changes where people themselves. There are
a lot of things that people can do from you know,
(18:06):
we're always when when you hear someone dennigrade a boy
or man, I mean say something, you don't have to
get in a fight with it. I'll just hear people
say stuff and I'll say, well, you know that if
somebody says, you know, wire men such losers, you might say, well,
I mean, you know, calling people losers probably isn't gonna
make them any better, right, I mean, you know you
(18:27):
want to just say some depends who I'm talking to.
I can get a little sarcastic, for sure, But yeah,
I mean I think that's good. And I'm sure you're
a very good mother and you're probably protective, and I
think that's a really really good thing. I think I
think the boys aren't going to tell us. They're going
to pretend that nothing bothers them. They're going to pretend
that that all these shirts and things mean nothing, but
it does, and it's infiltrating the culture, and it gives
(18:49):
people the freedom. It's almost like that Overton window effect,
where the more we do, the more acceptable we think
it is. Right. You see somebody and you think that, okay.
At first, it's like okay, you know, now it's okay
to den a great men. Now it's okay to discriminate
against men. Now it's okay to physically. I mean, there's
lots of women online or in the thing men belong
(19:10):
in jail. I mean, there's a lot of women who
feel like if a man looks something the wrong way,
they belong in jail. And I've talked to them, and
it's really, you know, it's like a fascist sort of behavior.
And I think stepping up, speaking up and making sure
that when you hear that you say something. I can't
tell you how many classes in psychology I had been in,
(19:31):
even in the eighties and nineties where people would say
things against men, and I'd be like, oh my gosh,
Like seriously, I.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
Thought this was a more recent phenomenon. I saw this
as part of.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
The Wolf years. No, no, no, No, It's been going
on forever. When I was in school, and you know,
I started in psychology, gosh in the eighties, and even
you know, in my twenties and then into the nineties,
and it had been going on the whole time. The
whole time I was there. It was all about victimization
of women, how this, that, and the other. It was.
It's worse now, but it was bad in I remember
(20:01):
sitting in class. I mean, I'm surprised I got my
PhD because I definitely was not happy with some of
the things I saw.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
What would you say you're most proud of in your life?
You know?
Speaker 2 (20:15):
I thought about that and I would have to go back.
Just having had Father's Day this last week, I would
say that what I'm most proud of in my life
would be my relationship with my father. He died twenty
five years ago when he was young. But yeah, he
was a mathematician and he had a PhD. And I
had such huge respect for him. He taught me about
life and he had he had a very hard life.
(20:36):
He grew up in New York City in the Bronx,
but he had a lot of hardship and he taught
me how to deal with life, and he taught me
how to love men. And I feel so bad for people.
And that's sort of what the book is about. There's
a lot of men out there and women and girls
who didn't have that fabulous relationship with their father. I
don't know what it is to have that. And I
(20:57):
see women who are lost and men who are lost,
boys who are lost because so you know, one out
of four kids now like don't live with their dad.
And I think it is a hardship. And I think
our society it doesn't encourage, it doesn't encourage that father
child relationship as much as it should. So I am
(21:20):
most proud that I was able to have that relationship
with my father and that he taught me how to
love men and how to respect and honor them, and
all the work that I do is really for him.
You know.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
It's so beautiful. Really, I love that. I love that
you had that relationship with your father, and all years later,
that still is what matters to you so much. Give
us a five year out prediction, and it could be
about anything at all.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
That one was really hard. Let's see, I would say,
and this is going to be political. I'm going to
say that if Democrats get back in power within the
next five years, I think those of us I'm Jewish,
and I think those are us who are Jewish or
Republican or male, I think that it's going to be
a very very difficult place for us to live in
the United States. I think that them coming back in
power is very very dangerous. I would I think that
(22:14):
I may hope it's they don't, but that I think
that if they do. I remember I worked with PJ
Media Obama came in, well yeah, yeah, And I remember
Bill Whittle. We were on a show that night Obama
got the presidency and Bill Widdle asked me, he said,
do you think the left will calm down now that
(22:35):
Obama's in US said, oh god, no, they will get
way worse. And I think that's exactly what will happen.
So my prediction would be if the Left gets back
in power, I think that it will get worse in
this country for those of us who are not on
the preferred list, I guess, and that that concerns and
(22:56):
worries me.
Speaker 1 (22:57):
That's definitely true. I mean the fact that Jews still
vote Democrats, and I think we could have a whole
separate episode on that. I'm absolutely bananas, like bananas, yep.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
I literally was at to I go to a pool
and I have a Jewish community that I belonged to,
and I was there one day before Trump got elected
and I was talking to one of my friends who's
Republican there who's Jewish, and another woman whose Jewish came
up to us and started screaming that Trump was Hitler.
We weren't even including her on the conversation, but when
she said that, I just looked at her and I said,
(23:31):
it's Jews like you who are going to get us killed, okay,
just killed. And Pam Geller, I don't know if you
remember her, she was a long time Yeah, yeah, well
she used to call these people Jewish siders and I
always thought that was such a funny name. But it's
so fitting. It's sort of like that. It's sort of
like God said, who wrote the books Suicidal Empathy that
just came out, It's sort of that same thing. These
(23:51):
are like they literally are going to get people killed.
Because I don't understand it either, and again, like you said,
that could be a whole show, but yeah, it's uh,
I do understand it because I talk to people, but
I don't I don't get it. I don't know why
any Jew would vote for Democrats at this point.
Speaker 1 (24:11):
Helen, I've loved this conversation. Like I said, a really
long time ban of yours. I've always anytime you've ever
written anything, I am first to read it. I just
think you're brilliant and hilarious, and you and glenn A
just really set the bar for all of the stuff
that you've done. Leave us here with your best tip
(24:32):
for my listeners on how they can improve their lives.
Speaker 2 (24:35):
Well being that I'm a men's right sector, because I'm
going to say the best tip I would give people
would be to humanize men. The humanize the men in
your life. Don't talk about them, talk to them, be direct,
talk to them and really just think about They have
feelings and they have so much to say. And if
(24:57):
you can be patient and don't listen with judgment, don't
listen with listen. It doesn't have to be understanding it
just be curious. Be curious what do the guys in
your life think? And I think if each person, especially women,
could just be curious, be interested, I think that alone
would really help each individual person in their lives. And
(25:18):
to men, I would say, humanize yourself and don't dehumanize
other men's. Don't call men names, don't call people in sales,
and stop trying to one up somebody. I mean, that's
I get it. In sports, that's fine, but in life no.
Speaker 1 (25:33):
I love that she is doctor Helen Smith. Check out
her new book His Side. Men speak out on dating,
marriage and life in America. Buy it anywhere you buy
your books. Thank you so much for coming on, Helen.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
Thank you so much. I appreciate it.
Hi, and welcome back to the Carol Marko Wood Show
on iHeartRadio. My guest today is doctor Helen Smith, author
of Men on Strike and author of the fantastic new
book His Side, Men speak out on dating, marriage and
life in America. Hi, Helen, so nice to have you on.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Yeah, Carol, thank you so much for invioting me on
your show. I appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
A longtime fan of yours. You and your husband are
some of my absolute favorite people of the Internet that
I've met. And I'm very excited about your new book
and think it's addressing something that needs addressing. And I
wanted to read just a little bit from your book
because it really struck me that most men in America
(00:48):
accept the fact that they are often treated as second
class citizens without questioning what is happening and why, or
they understand it and feel nothing can be done. The
system is stacked against them. How did this happen? Where
did men lose their way or where did the society
lose the men?
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Yeah, I think it's the latter. I think society kind
of lost men. You know, we have all these experts
in people that come out and talk about how men
have lost their way and how they're all a bunch
of failures, this, that, and the other. It's been going
on for a long time. Honestly, I think since the
sixties are probably you know where there's this big political shift.
And I know you do a lot on politics and
that sort of things, but we've seen this political shift.
(01:28):
And that's what my first book was about Men on Straw,
which looked at I wrote that in twenty twelve, twenty thirteen,
it came out, but it looked at that societal shift
that happened in the sixties, shifting over to it's almost
like our whole society has changed over to everybody thinking
and that men are horrible and denigrating men, and it's
gotten worse. I think with the Internet and the ability
(01:52):
for so many people to get on and do have
sort of an echo chamber where they, you know, where
they just don't have any respect for men. And I
think lack of respect even when men tell me, oh,
I'm fine or you know. I think it has infiltrated
into the culture and infiltrated into the lives of both
(02:13):
men and women. And I think we see this with
how many men don't want to get married or men
want to be fathers. They want to get married more
so than women. But there's this whole disconnect now between
young men who are able to get married and those
women who want something more. And the Internet, of course
and apps have made that much worse. And I think
(02:34):
that's why I was so interested in doing this next book,
because it's sort of a you know, it takes from
Men on Track, which is sort of a polemic, just
sort of looking at you know, how did this happen
and why, and you know, what are the different avenues?
And now I wanted to see individual men, Like we
don't talk to individual men. We talk about men, but
(02:56):
we don't talk to them, and so I think that's
what the book. To me. It was different because I
actually went and just sat with men and talked to
them for a year and it was just so fascinating.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
Did you have any surprising discoveries while writing his side?
Speaker 2 (03:14):
The biggest discovery that I had that surprised me the
most wasn't to do with the men. It was to
do with women. I was surprised that the women cared
so much, and that women are the ones who are
reading the book. I thought it would be men trying
to pitch it to men. But I've noticed that most
people who are reading the book are women, and with his,
with my first book, men On Strike, it as majority men.
So that's what surprises me. And it surprises me now
(03:34):
how much more some of the women who read it
care in a way that they didn't care before. So
that makes me feel really positive about the way that
women feel, and maybe there is some change. We do
see a lot more about these sort of and I'm
not a traditional wife, and I don't you know, but
we see a lot more of that, you know, in
(03:55):
on TikTok or on you know, on Instagram and all
these places about traditional wives or women. Maybe they're going
on to get hits, I don't know, but at least
they're talking in positive ways about men, And people are
always asking me how I feel, like, oh, well, what
do you think about these trad wives coming on whatever?
At least is they're not negative. At least they're saying, Hey,
I'm going to make my man a sandwich. That's got
to be better that I hate men, right, sure?
Speaker 1 (04:18):
Absolutely, you talk about in your book the book Self
Made Man. It was a two thousand and six book
for anybody who doesn't know with this fantastic writer, Nora Vincent,
and she went undercover as a man. And I remember
reading that book No. Two thousand and six. I was,
I can't do math, but I was fairly young, and
(04:40):
I thought I thought women had it harder. I thought
women had it tougher than men did, for sure. And
I remember reading that book and Nora comes out of
it being like, thank God, I'm a woman and being
a man is so difficult. I remember that really did
sort of alter my perspective on what being a man
(05:00):
is like in our culture. Do you think that we're
lacking those kinds of perspectives? Maybe people just don't understand
how hard it is to be a man.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
I don't think people understand, But I think the bigger
thing is that most women don't care. And that's what
men tell me is I think that women they have
been fed such a pack of I'm not going to
say lies. Obviously in some context women have it harder,
but I don't think that's the issue. The issue is
what's happening. I mean, you know, as a psychologist with men,
my interest is in like, what are men dealing with
(05:29):
in society? How are they feeling? And I think it's
not a matter of harder, it's a matter of what's
happening in this society right now, how are men doing.
And what we see is a lot of men feeling
that they are disrespected and that they don't really have
a place or a purpose in society, and young men
and older men with no place or purpose. Very very
negative society for everybody. And I'm not one of those people.
(05:51):
There's a lot of experts and they always talk about
always trying to clarify that they're only you know, they're
only doing this so women can have a better life
because they need men. I only care that men have
a better life. I mean, I'm glad of women do,
but that's not my writing and interest is in men,
and you know, and they have a better life. And
so yes, I think that men do have a very
hard time, and I talk about it in my book.
(06:13):
But one of the things that's really struck me is
that people don't realize that the hard time is that
nobody really cares if you're a man. Like women, I
think people are so used to people asking us our feelings,
or if you're a woman, they just think that you
care or they think that you're a certain way, and
I find it sort of funny because I'm not really
that way. I'm sort of I don't know, like I
(06:33):
just growing up and seeing people I never was the
kind of person like I am always trying to rationally
think through a problem. I don't really. I think a
lot of women want to be heard. And the funny
thing I found, going back to what you were asking
me before, one of the things that it didn't surprise me.
But what's interesting is men were so happy to be heard.
So when I would give them two or three hours,
(06:53):
they would be like, oh my gosh, Like one guy
talked to me for four hours, and it's just like
they really really enjoy having their always heard. And I
really think that people don't. We've lost our ability or
maybe we never had it to talk with men and
to draw them out. People think men don't talk, but
they really do.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
Maybe we're just not letting them get a word in.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
I think we're not letting get a word in. And
we don't like the words that they say. So when
a man does a woman, he's not gonna like it.
If the man says, like, you know, I don't like
being disrespected, or you know what, I don't like the
way that women are. You know, if they say anything,
they're a massagynists.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
Right.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
If I say that, I'm like excriminated it. At work,
all He's told is I get men all the time
writing me telling me, you know, I went to work.
The women they do whatever they want. They talk in
front of me, they say anything. If it's a male nurse,
they tell me that they were told as a man
they better get out there and start, you know, lifting, carrying,
doing all these things that if they did to a woman,
(07:50):
everybody would be up in arms. And I think that
we just expect a lot of things from men that
we would never expect from a normal worker, and we
expect them to tolerate it and not argue and not
have any feedback. And I think that's what people in
an impossible situation, and it leads to just a feeling
of frustration and anger, and eventually there's almost like I
(08:12):
don't want It's almost like a learned helplessness. And I
don't think it's helpless. I just think the men that
I interviewed ors just sort of like, eh, you know,
what can you do?
Speaker 1 (08:20):
Right?
Speaker 2 (08:20):
That's what anaciety is.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
It sounds a little bit like a masculization, right, like
that they get emasculated in these situations and they're not
allowed to be who they are actually born to be.
Is that Is there any truth to that?
Speaker 2 (08:38):
Yeah? I mean I think they are being who they are,
but I think the society doesn't like it. And I
really think it has to do with a political bent.
It really is that the elites now want people. They
want to destroy families they don't want, they don't like
the nuclear family, and they want to denegrate men. And
there are so many men now, there's almost this thing.
A man recently sent me a book called, Oh Gosh,
(08:59):
it was No Love with Nowhere to Go, and he
talked a lot about how as a father he had
been just thrown out of his children's lives and he
doesn't understand why did he do something? Probably, but we
now it's almost like a popular thing to just toss
your dad and your mom too. I mean, we talked
about these toxic parents. But I think as a psychologist,
(09:22):
I've just seen I think a lot of it has
to do and I put the blame squarely on my profession.
I think part of it is that as psychologists, or
not even as the mental health profession has really turned
everyone into a victim. And if you have any problem,
you're supposed to just get rid of anything and make
sure that you know, if something's bothering you, just get
rid of it, you know, just do away with it.
If it's a man now, if it's something else.
Speaker 1 (09:44):
Right, Yeah, do you have any advice for mom's d
you know, raising boys in this culture? What do you
say to people who want their sons to turn out differently,
to not have these same issues. I have a daughter
and two sons. I always say it's unfair that it's
like there's so much more geared at my daughter than
(10:06):
at my son's and there's so much more push for
her to succeed, and just so many opportunities that I
think that are pushed her away that I just don't
see the same thing happening for boys now.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
And that's what the men told me. And I didn't
get the chance to interview young fratman and they were
twenty one and twenty two, and they all said the
same thing. They said, you girls, And they try to
be nice about it, but essentially boils down to girls
and women have a support group and we you know,
like a system, and one reason I think boys are
afraid to fail is they don't have that system in place.
Nobody is really going to help them, so if they fail,
there's nowhere to go. But I would say to moms,
(10:42):
I would say a lot of moms do really care.
But the thing is you have to direct the caring,
not at talking about what a loser your son is,
or I think that you have to realize that your
son has a lot of underlying feelings that you may
not understand, and that you don't it's not necessarily that
you understand them, but it's necessary that you be there
to talk with him or to let him sometimes vent
(11:04):
who he is. I think a lot of moms feel
like their sons aren't doing well, But I think you
have to present those things to your son, and you
have to let them know. Sometimes you know things happen.
For example, you know if you go if you know
there is discrimination against boys, and yes things are harder
for you at well you go to college, and yes,
(11:24):
these colleges are going to turn on you more readily
than a girl if they if you step out of wong.
And I think sometimes you do have to warn and
help your son to understand that. However, I think it's
also important to realize that boys have a lot of feelings,
and I think people do things to boys, such as
move them around a lot, or think that nothing bothers
them because they don't speak up and they're quiet. As
(11:47):
a psychologist in the schools, I found that a lot
of people would say, well, I didn't know he was
depressed because he seems free. And a mother has to
understand that boys have a different way of expression, and
the expression might be more anger or withdrawal, and both
of the signal to the mom to say, hey, wait
a second, if my son's angry again, it's not a
(12:08):
matter of fault. It's just a matter of there's something happening,
and how can I get at what is going on,
not in an intrusive way, but maybe by being there
by letting the boy talk to you, and not by
putting the daughter first. I think people don't. I talked
to so many moms, and honestly, I don't even know
they had a son, Like they might have a daughter
and a son, and all I've heard about is the daughter.
(12:30):
So it's kind of like I've had moms tell me
their sons an a hole I've had them, and I'm like, wow,
you know, really, you know that's rough. I mean, that's
what they think of their sons. Maybe they are, but
is it really going to help to say that that's
so tough?
Speaker 1 (12:44):
Not even knowing they had boys is like I could
see that. I could see that, and I mean not
I definitely talk about my sons quite a bit as
much as I talk about my daughter, but I could
see that the girls are just elevated and put on
a pedestal still in a way that I just don't
see boys in the same way. I mean, I remember
my daughter noticing that all the shirts at like Target
(13:08):
had like, you know, the future is female or girl power,
and she realized that the boys don't, and she's like,
are they just telling me this because we don't have
power and because the future is not female? Like she
sort of saw it as a live being sold to her.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
It doesn't lie being sold to her. But at the
same time, it's a worse message to the boys because
it sends this awful message. So my worry is more
towards the boys. And yet you a lie. It is
a lie. Why are you telling that people with power
don't go around I have power. It's ridiculous. I thought
that when I was young, i'd see people talking about
these women in their empowerment. You know, if you talk
about empowerment, you're not empowered. You've got other issues. But
(13:47):
empowerment comes from doing things and being things. And the
thing is, boys are full of action and they want
to do things, they want to be things, and you know,
they don't necessarily want to talk about it. They want
to be about it. But as a boy, sometimes you
can't be about it in our society because you're told
you there. I have young men who tell me that
they wanted to do a sport. The sport wasn't available
(14:09):
at their school because of Title nine. They weren't allowed
to better facilities or to do anything. One boy told
me him and his high school friends try to raise
money to have a better dressing room. They were dressing
in a barn and they couldn't because it wouldn't it
wasn't fair because the girls didn't have this or that,
(14:29):
and there was no girls team. So, you know, I
think there are a lot of issues, and you know,
people always point out, well, it starts out in a
good way. You know, people are positive, they're just trying
to be good with girls. But you know what, it's
gone to the other extreme, and it's so extreme, and
nobody wants to pull back and say, well, wait a second,
there is something wrong with what you're doing to men
and boys. I mean it is it is discrimination, it
(14:50):
is unfairness, and boys pick up on it. They're extremely
sensitive to that. And if you think they're not listening
to you, I guarantee you one hundred percent they are
watching you. And they understand the hypocritical nature that adults
have towards young men, particularly young I mean no minority
men too, but young white man and young black man.
(15:12):
I mean, I've it pends, but I've seen it on
all sides. It's just if you're a boy or a
man in our society's there's a grown at you.
Speaker 1 (15:22):
We're going to take a quick break and be right
back on the Carol Marcowitch Show. I love that your
focus stays on the boys. And it's actually surprising to
me a little bit that you got pushed back on, like, oh,
you know, we have to make boys better so that
it's better for girls. But I really I like that
you maintain the focus on the boys. Is there structural
(15:46):
solutions that you have in mind for this kind of
problem when you were writing his side. I know publishers
love you know, now fix this problem. Do you have
a fix or any kind of thoughts about.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
Where we matter of one type of fix. But I
think I think partly some of the stuff like the
Trump administration is doing. People don't realize that, but it
is quietly doing a lot of things. For example, in
the schools, in the colleges. You know, you had the
Dear Obama, the Dear Colleige letter sent by the Obama
administration that had no due process for men, that would
use like one single aspect of a college to make
(16:19):
a decision about whether a boy had, you know, sexually
harassed somebody or looked at them the wrong way, or
done something. And I think they've pushed back on a
lot of that also, Deied, it's really really hard for men. Obviously,
there aren't as many opportunities. People don't want to hire
a white man. I can't tell you how many of
the men in my book, or just men I talked
to in general, tell me we're not hiring a white man.
(16:41):
It happens that all the colleges across the country. Happens
all the time. We're not hiring a white man. It's
just you know, and it's like they just feel people
feel very free to say that in the same way
they say, you know, I hate dad or whatever. But
people don't generally if you say you hate your mother,
it's a little different people. I mean, it's people do it,
(17:02):
but it's still it's much worse if you know, if
you said against a woman. But I would say the
DEI the breakdown of that, I think there is coming down.
I think those are the things that are directly discriminatory
against men. I would say those the school systems we need.
We have very few role models. I talk a lot
about that fathers in the book, how important they are.
(17:24):
You know, we just had Father's Day. And it's just
that men are doing more and more work now, and
they are spending more and more time with children, and
at the same time they're also expected to be a
man to provide for families. We have readers that shows
most people in the United States field that men are
still supposed to provide for the family, much more so
than women. And at the same time, they're all supposed
supposed to be taking care of all the kids and
(17:45):
doing you know, so it's just a lot. We've put
a lot on men and we are asking you know women. Yes,
they're coming into the workplace, but there's a lot of
accolades and there's a lot of support for that. I
would also say that I do think governmental changes, but
I think so other changes where people themselves. There are
a lot of things that people can do from you know,
(18:06):
we're always when when you hear someone dennigrade a boy
or man, I mean say something, you don't have to
get in a fight with it. I'll just hear people
say stuff and I'll say, well, you know that if
somebody says, you know, wire men such losers, you might say, well,
I mean, you know, calling people losers probably isn't gonna
make them any better, right, I mean, you know you
(18:27):
want to just say some depends who I'm talking to.
I can get a little sarcastic, for sure, But yeah,
I mean I think that's good. And I'm sure you're
a very good mother and you're probably protective, and I
think that's a really really good thing. I think I
think the boys aren't going to tell us. They're going
to pretend that nothing bothers them. They're going to pretend
that that all these shirts and things mean nothing, but
it does, and it's infiltrating the culture, and it gives
(18:49):
people the freedom. It's almost like that Overton window effect,
where the more we do, the more acceptable we think
it is. Right. You see somebody and you think that, okay.
At first, it's like okay, you know, now it's okay
to den a great men. Now it's okay to discriminate
against men. Now it's okay to physically. I mean, there's
lots of women online or in the thing men belong
(19:10):
in jail. I mean, there's a lot of women who
feel like if a man looks something the wrong way,
they belong in jail. And I've talked to them, and
it's really, you know, it's like a fascist sort of behavior.
And I think stepping up, speaking up and making sure
that when you hear that you say something. I can't
tell you how many classes in psychology I had been in,
(19:31):
even in the eighties and nineties where people would say
things against men, and I'd be like, oh my gosh,
Like seriously, I.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
Thought this was a more recent phenomenon. I saw this
as part of.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
The Wolf years. No, no, no, No, It's been going
on forever. When I was in school, and you know,
I started in psychology, gosh in the eighties, and even
you know, in my twenties and then into the nineties,
and it had been going on the whole time. The
whole time I was there. It was all about victimization
of women, how this, that, and the other. It was.
It's worse now, but it was bad in I remember
(20:01):
sitting in class. I mean, I'm surprised I got my
PhD because I definitely was not happy with some of
the things I saw.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
What would you say you're most proud of in your life?
You know?
Speaker 2 (20:15):
I thought about that and I would have to go back.
Just having had Father's Day this last week, I would
say that what I'm most proud of in my life
would be my relationship with my father. He died twenty
five years ago when he was young. But yeah, he
was a mathematician and he had a PhD. And I
had such huge respect for him. He taught me about
life and he had he had a very hard life.
(20:36):
He grew up in New York City in the Bronx,
but he had a lot of hardship and he taught
me how to deal with life, and he taught me
how to love men. And I feel so bad for people.
And that's sort of what the book is about. There's
a lot of men out there and women and girls
who didn't have that fabulous relationship with their father. I
don't know what it is to have that. And I
(20:57):
see women who are lost and men who are lost,
boys who are lost because so you know, one out
of four kids now like don't live with their dad.
And I think it is a hardship. And I think
our society it doesn't encourage, it doesn't encourage that father
child relationship as much as it should. So I am
(21:20):
most proud that I was able to have that relationship
with my father and that he taught me how to
love men and how to respect and honor them, and
all the work that I do is really for him.
You know.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
It's so beautiful. Really, I love that. I love that
you had that relationship with your father, and all years later,
that still is what matters to you so much. Give
us a five year out prediction, and it could be
about anything at all.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
That one was really hard. Let's see, I would say,
and this is going to be political. I'm going to
say that if Democrats get back in power within the
next five years, I think those of us I'm Jewish,
and I think those are us who are Jewish or
Republican or male, I think that it's going to be
a very very difficult place for us to live in
the United States. I think that them coming back in
power is very very dangerous. I would I think that
(22:14):
I may hope it's they don't, but that I think
that if they do. I remember I worked with PJ
Media Obama came in, well yeah, yeah, And I remember
Bill Whittle. We were on a show that night Obama
got the presidency and Bill Widdle asked me, he said,
do you think the left will calm down now that
(22:35):
Obama's in US said, oh god, no, they will get
way worse. And I think that's exactly what will happen.
So my prediction would be if the Left gets back
in power, I think that it will get worse in
this country for those of us who are not on
the preferred list, I guess, and that that concerns and
(22:56):
worries me.
Speaker 1 (22:57):
That's definitely true. I mean the fact that Jews still
vote Democrats, and I think we could have a whole
separate episode on that. I'm absolutely bananas, like bananas, yep.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
I literally was at to I go to a pool
and I have a Jewish community that I belonged to,
and I was there one day before Trump got elected
and I was talking to one of my friends who's
Republican there who's Jewish, and another woman whose Jewish came
up to us and started screaming that Trump was Hitler.
We weren't even including her on the conversation, but when
she said that, I just looked at her and I said,
(23:31):
it's Jews like you who are going to get us killed, okay,
just killed. And Pam Geller, I don't know if you
remember her, she was a long time Yeah, yeah, well
she used to call these people Jewish siders and I
always thought that was such a funny name. But it's
so fitting. It's sort of like that. It's sort of
like God said, who wrote the books Suicidal Empathy that
just came out, It's sort of that same thing. These
(23:51):
are like they literally are going to get people killed.
Because I don't understand it either, and again, like you said,
that could be a whole show, but yeah, it's uh,
I do understand it because I talk to people, but
I don't I don't get it. I don't know why
any Jew would vote for Democrats at this point.
Speaker 1 (24:11):
Helen, I've loved this conversation. Like I said, a really
long time ban of yours. I've always anytime you've ever
written anything, I am first to read it. I just
think you're brilliant and hilarious, and you and glenn A
just really set the bar for all of the stuff
that you've done. Leave us here with your best tip
(24:32):
for my listeners on how they can improve their lives.
Speaker 2 (24:35):
Well being that I'm a men's right sector, because I'm
going to say the best tip I would give people
would be to humanize men. The humanize the men in
your life. Don't talk about them, talk to them, be direct,
talk to them and really just think about They have
feelings and they have so much to say. And if
(24:57):
you can be patient and don't listen with judgment, don't
listen with listen. It doesn't have to be understanding it
just be curious. Be curious what do the guys in
your life think? And I think if each person, especially women,
could just be curious, be interested, I think that alone
would really help each individual person in their lives. And
(25:18):
to men, I would say, humanize yourself and don't dehumanize
other men's. Don't call men names, don't call people in sales,
and stop trying to one up somebody. I mean, that's
I get it. In sports, that's fine, but in life no.
Speaker 1 (25:33):
I love that she is doctor Helen Smith. Check out
her new book His Side. Men speak out on dating,
marriage and life in America. Buy it anywhere you buy
your books. Thank you so much for coming on, Helen.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
Thank you so much. I appreciate it.
The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show News
Hosts And Creators
Clay Travis
Buck Sexton
Show Links
WebsiteNewsletterPopular Podcasts
Betrayal Weekly
Betrayal Weekly is back for a new season. Every Thursday, Betrayal Weekly shares first-hand accounts of broken trust, shocking deceptions, and the trail of destruction they leave behind. Hosted by Andrea Gunning, this weekly ongoing series digs into real-life stories of betrayal and the aftermath. From stories of double lives to dark discoveries, these are cautionary tales and accounts of resilience against all odds. From the producers of the critically acclaimed Betrayal series, Betrayal Weekly drops new episodes every Thursday. If you would like to share your story, you can reach out to the Betrayal Team by emailing them at betrayalpod@gmail.com and follow us on Instagram at @betrayalpod and @glasspodcasts. Please join our Substack for additional exclusive content, curated book recommendations, and community discussions. Sign up FREE by clicking this link Beyond Betrayal Substack. Join our community dedicated to truth, resilience, and healing. Your voice matters! Be a part of our Betrayal journey on Substack.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com