October 2, 2026 • 22 mins
Karol Markowicz sits down with author and Storytime for Grown Ups host Faith Moore to discuss her new romantic comedy, Wooing Jane, a wildly original story that brings Henry VIII into the modern world to help two lonely people fall in love.
Their conversation quickly expands into a bigger question: Have men and women forgotten how to woo each other? Moore discusses chivalry, modern feminism, changing expectations between men and women, and why people can struggle to form meaningful romantic relationships in an increasingly online world.
Karol and Faith also explore dating apps, online friendships, parasocial relationships and the danger of comparing imperfect real people with idealized versions of people created online. Moore argues that while technology can help people connect, ultimately “reality is the most important thing.”
Plus, Faith explains why she believes younger generations may begin putting down their phones and reconnecting with books, exercise, the outdoors and face-to-face relationships. And she closes with a simple piece of advice for building a better life: the things worth having are often hard—and you can do hard things.
Follow Clay & Buck on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/clayandbuck
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Listen
Watch
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hi, and welcome back to The Carol Markowitz Show on iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
My guest today is Faith Moore.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
Faith is the host of Storytime for Grownups, a podcast
that helps people learn to love classical literature. She's also
the author of the novel Christmas Carol, published in 2023
by DW Books, and a new novel, Wooing Jane.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Available on October 2nd. Faith's writing has appeared.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
In a variety of venues, including The Wall Street Journal,
The Federalist, The Daily Wire, and The New York Daily News,
among others.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Hi, Faith. So nice to have you on.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
Thanks, Carol, for having me back. It's so good to
be here.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
It's so good to have you.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
Last time you were here, we were talking about your book,
Christmas Carol, which is spelled correctly, K-A-R-O-L.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
Exactly, just for you.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
I obviously really loved it.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
Your new book is Wooing Jane. Is it a shift
in kind of... topic for you or is it in
the same kind of vein as Christmas Carol?
Speaker 4 (01:01):
It's a little bit of a shift in that this
is a romantic comedy. I think Christmas Carol had more
of There was a more of a serious tone to it.
There were some funny moments, but this is really a comedy.
It's a rom-com and it's wacky. It's about what happens
when Henry VIII, the Henry VIII, accidentally time travels into
the present day and ends up helping two kind of sad,
(01:24):
lonely people to fall in love.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
So it's... Oh, I love that.
Speaker 4 (01:27):
Yeah, it's a little zanier. It's a little more silly,
but it's also... hopefully a really fun love story. So
it's a love story in the same way as Christmas Carol,
but a departure otherwise, I think.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
I really love that. Are things so bad?
Speaker 1 (01:42):
Do people have such a hard time meeting each other
that we need the ghost of Henry VIII to like
fly in?
Speaker 3 (01:48):
I don't know. It's possible. I mean, I'm whatever. I'm
an old married lady. I don't really know.
Speaker 4 (01:54):
But it seems to me from where I sit that
something is missing. It seems to me that people are
having a harder time finding partners. I mean, people say
this to me all the time or people will write
in and say to me, you know, I'm doing what
I think are all the right things and I just
(02:15):
can't find the guy.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
I'm the idea for the book was kind of, well,
what is it? What's missing?
Speaker 4 (02:25):
And Henry VIII is a funny role model in a
lot of ways. And that's kind of the joke of
the book is that he's actually a terrible role model.
He did terrible things, but there's one thing he knows.
And that one thing is that a woman wants to
be wooed. And so that's kind of where he comes
in to the picture. And he teaches this pretty sort
(02:48):
of ridiculous man how to do that in a world
that has essentially forgotten, in a world that is sort
of overrun by feminism. And hopefully it's overrun in my
world in a sort of ridiculous and over the top way.
And so I'm not making fun of anyone in particular,
but I am making fun of something which I see,
which is that people don't seem to know how to
(03:09):
relate to each other.
Speaker 3 (03:10):
Men and women don't seem to know how to relate
to each other anymore.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
It's such a good.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
Point that people don't know how to woo anymore. Like,
I think I see a lot of this content online
where women are like, look at me, I should be
able to have whatever man I want. And look at me,
I earn all this money. Like, why can't I just
have any woman I want? And here's royalty being like, well,
you still need to try. You still have to, you know,
attempt at the person. You still need to woo them.
Speaker 4 (03:35):
Yeah. And I think, you know, there's this idea, which
I mean, maybe now is even a little bit outdated.
Speaker 3 (03:41):
It's maybe what are we calling it now? It's woke
one or whatever. But, you know, there's this idea that
chivalry is dead.
Speaker 4 (03:51):
And ought to be right. That's the feminist notion that
women don't want you to. open the door for them
or pay for the meal because that would imply that
you are somehow incapable. And the thing is that that's
not what chivalry is at all. Chivalry is the notion
that a man could. I mean, it comes from, I mean,
(04:13):
this is like a history lesson that you didn't ask for,
but it comes, it comes from the middle ages when
there were all of these knights and knights were a
new idea and they were essentially thugs. They were hired
thugs that these warlords would kind of employ to go
around doing their business. And of course they started to
do what men will do when you give them a
(04:33):
bunch of armor and a sword, they started raping and
pillaging and doing all kinds of things.
Speaker 3 (04:38):
So the.
Speaker 4 (04:41):
No, we don't do that. We actually protect the weak
and the innocent. And they came up with the code
of chivalry. And so the idea is men could harm us.
So we have developed this system to teach them not to,
to channel their baser urges into something better. And that's
the kind of chivalry that Henry VIII would have understood.
(05:04):
That's the kind of chivalry that kind of anyone in
the past would have understood.
Speaker 3 (05:09):
And so.
Speaker 4 (05:10):
Yeah, I think we've forgotten that and women instinctually want
that kind of thing. But then they have to say, well, no,
I'm a strong, independent woman. And then they're miserable and
nobody can find a partner.
Speaker 3 (05:25):
It's so funny.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
I think that there's been a lot of like what
you're supposed to want and then what you actually do want.
And it's been a topic that I've been interested in
for a very, very long time. I don't know if
you remember the show Mad Men. It was the lead
character was this womanizing, very handsome man. And there was
a lot of discourse online at the time with like,
(05:46):
I I'm attracted to him and I don't want to be.
And it's like, you, you know, the, the idea of
like what you, what you want and what you're supposed
to want being at odds with each other. I feel
like it's a very modern one. I think, you know,
you kind of used to want what you want and
that was it. And I love the idea that chivalry
is something that is meant to protect women.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
It's not like a learned, it is a learned behavior,
but it's, it's a, Something that men do for us.
Speaker 4 (06:13):
That's exactly right. I mean, that is exactly what it is.
And nobody in the past would have said anything different. And,
you know, and I think this concept that, oh, well,
you know, I don't need that because I'm a strong,
independent woman.
Speaker 3 (06:29):
It's like, okay, fine. You don't need it. You're right.
You can open a door. You're right.
Speaker 4 (06:34):
You can put on your own coat. But isn't it
nice to know that this person... wants to take care
of you, that he's not going to harm you, that
he's here to do things for you because the opposite
would be really bad. And so the joke in the
book is that one of the main characters, the man, has...
(06:55):
tried to be chivalrous, but he lives in a world
where nobody wants that. And so in order to try
to get a date, he has gone completely the other way.
Speaker 3 (07:03):
And so he's always kind of slamming doors.
Speaker 4 (07:04):
In women's faces and he's, you know, making sure that
they pay for.
Speaker 3 (07:09):
Their own meal.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
I've seen this line of rhetoric.
Speaker 3 (07:11):
On mine too. Exactly. So I've sort of amped that
up to the nth degree.
Speaker 4 (07:15):
And It just shows you how ridiculous that really is
and that we do.
Speaker 3 (07:22):
And I think you're absolutely right.
Speaker 4 (07:24):
We are attracted to the kind of man that we
have been told we shouldn't want. And I think the
problem is that in a world where you're not supposed
to do that, then it becomes the, what's his name,
Don Draper or whatever.
Speaker 3 (07:38):
It becomes the Don Drapers of the world who embody that.
And they're actually not the best men.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
Oh, totally.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
You don't want Don Drapers.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
More likely that you'll be attracted to them if you're
told you're not supposed to be. If you're like, if
you could just be attracted to whoever you want, I
don't think you end up choosing the Don Drapers who are,
you know, troubled and like a little irritating.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
I always found him kind of babyish. He was very
needy and, you know, I didn't think anything of him.
Speaker 1 (08:03):
And I feel like that was because I was allowed
to find him attractive.
Speaker 3 (08:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (08:08):
But I also think like, if you kind of socially
outlaw those qualities of kind of masculinity and chivalry, then
the only people who embody them are kind of awful people.
And so then you're like, why am I attracted to
this guy who's actually really awful that I wouldn't want
to be with in real life? Well, it's because he's
the only one who's saying, well, I don't care what
(08:30):
you say. I'm going to do these things. And those
things are attractive people. even when we see them in
people that we actually don't really want, like Henry VIII.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
Did you have fun writing Wooing Jane?
Speaker 3 (08:44):
It was the best fun. I mean, I actually kind
of for a long time was like, I can't write
this book. No one's going to read it. It's too weird.
Speaker 4 (08:53):
It's too crazy. But it's very me. It's weird and
crazy in the way that I am. And so it
was tons of fun. And, you know, weirdly, I am
kind of a tutor history buff. That's not something I
ever thought I would say about myself. But yeah, I
was a terrible history student. I mean, the worst history
student in school. My mom had to read my, this
(09:14):
is embarrassing. My mom had to read my textbooks for
me and then explain what they said because I just
couldn't get it. But in my 20s, I read this
terrible romance novel called The Other Boleyn Girl, which has
now been made into a movie.
Speaker 3 (09:25):
And I just, I said, which, what if this is true?
And I just went down this crazy rabbit hole that
lasted like 20 years.
Speaker 4 (09:34):
And here I am writing a book about Henry VIII.
Speaker 3 (09:35):
So yeah, it was tons of fun, a blast.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
So it's amazing to me because I think of you as,
you know, you have this, you host the Storytime for
Grownups where you help people understand classic literature.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
So it's very hard for me to imagine you unable
to read history.
Speaker 4 (09:52):
Yeah, well, that's actually the point of the podcast is
that when I was growing up, I really struggled to read.
And you know, I always loved to read and I
would read, you know, kids books and things when I
was a kid. But if you handed me a work of,
you know, a history book or even a classic literature book,
(10:13):
I just couldn't figure it out.
Speaker 3 (10:14):
I couldn't follow it.
Speaker 4 (10:15):
And I knew that there was a whole world out
there of wonderful stories and wonderful information that I just
wasn't getting. And so I think, you know, for me,
I was lucky. I came from a very literate family.
I did a lot of writing. You know, reading that
I maybe wouldn't have done if I hadn't been encouraged
(10:37):
in that way. And so I did kind of end
up finding my way in. And that's why I created
the show, because I wanted other people to be able
to access the great books of the past, which really
are hard to read. And I think sometimes we're embarrassed
that we don't understand them.
Speaker 3 (10:50):
And so we give up. And my feeling is don't
give up. You just need some help. And that's OK.
Speaker 4 (10:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
Yeah. So I was on your father's show recently, Andrew Coleman,
and I was telling him that he lives the dream.
Both of his kids are married, you know, have spouses
and it's all you want for your kids.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
And again, it's so hard in this like.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
New dating world and all of that. And I have
teenagers and I definitely worry about the future. In Wooing Jane,
you talk about how to woo, how people should meet
each other. I mean, I think, I think your family
needs to do some sort of how to, how do
you get your kids married?
Speaker 2 (11:27):
How do you do it successfully? Yeah, that would be great.
Speaker 4 (11:30):
We can, we can stop everything that we're doing and
we'll just, I would watch that slave and family dating
show or like match.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
Oh my gosh, that would be so good. Great.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (11:38):
Apply now. You've heard it here. Apply now.
Speaker 4 (11:41):
And you know, we'll, we'll match you up with your perfect,
your perfect spouse.
Speaker 3 (11:45):
And no, I don't.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
I could see that being a.
Speaker 3 (11:48):
Hit, actually.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
Daily Wire, what are they up to?
Speaker 3 (11:52):
Yeah, OK. Hello, universe. Please give us that show. That'll
be so much fun. Yeah. You know, I think that
I think that one.
Speaker 4 (12:01):
Of the things and this is something that I deal
with in the book is that when so many of
our relationships are online, not just our romantic relationships but
our friend relationships so you know the female main character
in the book jane her best friends are these women
online that all impersonate wives of henry the eighth and
they do that on online oh wow and but when
(12:26):
that happens There's a way in which those people become
just like the perfect version that you see in your
head of those people and you can turn them into
whoever you want. And in reality, people are so much messier.
Speaker 3 (12:42):
They're so much more flawed. They're so much more complicated.
I mean, in the book, Jane also has a relationship
with sex.
Speaker 4 (12:48):
A Henry VIII account and she's kind of falling in
love with it, but she doesn't know who it is
or if he's even a he or if.
Speaker 3 (12:55):
He's like an old man.
Speaker 4 (12:56):
I mean, she doesn't know, but she's created this whole
image in her mind of who this person would be.
And even these friends who, you know, she now talked
to them on FaceTime or whatever, and she texts with them,
and she knows who they are, but they've never met
in real life. And I think that allows you to
build up this picture such that when you meet either
(13:18):
those real people or other people, and they're so much
more complicated, then you feel really let down, you feel confused,
and you think, oh, okay, well, this guy's not right. So,
you know, if you've been talking to somebody from a
dating app, for a while, and you've built them up
in your mind, and then you meet them, they're never
(13:39):
going to be.
Speaker 3 (13:40):
Who you thought that they were. You've turned them into
like Prince Charming, essentially. And then, you know, maybe they
chew funny or something and you give up.
Speaker 4 (13:49):
And I think that's one of the big things that's
going on right now is that people need to remember
that Reality is in fact the most important thing. It's
okay to have online friends. It's okay to meet people
online and online dating sites are great. But reality is
the most important thing and you need to live in reality.
Speaker 3 (14:10):
And I think that's a tricky thing right now.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
Such a good point, because how could fantasy, how could
reality compete with fantasy? Fantasy is the perfection you've built
in your head and reality has so many problems and flaws,
but it's clearly the better thing because it's real.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
I think that's such a good message for young people.
Speaker 1 (14:29):
You know, the fantasy person online, the Henry VIII that
you're talking to on the internet. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
Could be anybody, but Henry VIII in real life.
Speaker 3 (14:39):
That's right. Exactly.
Speaker 4 (14:40):
And, you know, there's something I'm playing with in the book,
which is that, you know, the Henry VIII that comes
into the present day is really kind of Jane's imaginary
version of Henry VIII. And he's not kind of the
tyrant that we know that he ended up becoming. And
it's kind of a play on basically parasocial relationships, you know,
the way that we form these bonds with people that.
Speaker 3 (15:03):
That don't even know that we exist.
Speaker 4 (15:05):
People, celebrities or podcast hosts or whatever it is, we
form these attachments and those are good and it's fine.
But when you build your whole life around something like that,
that's when it starts to become a problem because you
can't break out of that. And you can't see real
(15:27):
people for what they are. You're comparing them all the
time to the fantasy version of people that you.
Speaker 3 (15:33):
Have in your mind. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (15:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
And the reality is just it can't compete.
Speaker 3 (15:37):
It can't. Exactly.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
Faith, what is the thing you're most proud of in
your own life?
Speaker 3 (15:44):
Gosh, that's hard because I don't often feel proud of myself.
But I think They're amazing.
Speaker 2 (15:50):
How could you not feel proud of yourself?
Speaker 3 (15:52):
Thank you.
Speaker 4 (15:52):
That's very nice. And I always feel good when people
say that. But I think probably that I haven't compromised
my values in order to do the things that I
wanted to do. You know, I when I had my kids,
I really kind of set out to be a stay
at home mom. And to be the kind of mom
that stays home for the long haul, like not just
(16:13):
for the first few years or whatever that I would
be here so that, you know, there could be sick
days and I could do school pickup and all of
those things. And all of the things that I've built
in my life, like the podcast and the writing and
all the things that I do, I've slotted into the
places where, you know, my kids are at school or,
(16:34):
you know, they're they're doing something else. And so I
think that allows me to feel really good about the
things that I'm doing and not conflicted. You know, I
don't have to feel like, oh, I feel guilty for
doing this because I'm not over here doing that. And
so I think building a life, figuring out what your
actual values are and then building a life from that
(16:56):
is a good way to kind of craft a life.
And I feel like I'm proud that I've done that.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
I love that.
Speaker 1 (17:03):
Because there's so much conversation around like trad wives and
working women and whatever, but like figure out what your
values are and then craft your life around that is
actually the best advice. And we'll get to what your
actual advice is for our listeners at the end. But
that is such a good point that, you know, you
don't have to live in somebody else's version of what
(17:24):
your life should be. Figure out what it is for
yourself and for your family and go do that.
Speaker 2 (17:29):
I really enjoy that.
Speaker 3 (17:30):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
Give us a five year out prediction and it could
be about anything at all.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
Music, art, the world, anything, books, anything.
Speaker 3 (17:39):
I think we're going to get off our phones more.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
Really? Yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:43):
I feel really hopeful about this.
Speaker 4 (17:44):
And I know that's weird because I know we're all
talking about how awful it is that we're all on
our phones and AI and it's going to take over
the world and everything's terrible. But I think, you know,
one thing I'm seeing is parents becoming more and more
aware that The screens, the devices, all of that are
bad for their kids. And, you know, some parents are like,
(18:08):
I don't know what to do. But I think a
lot of people are really trying to make some changes.
Speaker 3 (18:13):
So I see that. And I also see kids changing. saying.
Speaker 4 (18:16):
I mean, teenagers, I don't know what your teenagers are saying.
I'm sure you're great about this with them. But, you know,
I hear them saying, I don't want this. You know,
I don't want to be on my phone all the time.
I know that in college classes, professors are making kids
write essays by hand and that kids are thanking them
for it.
Speaker 3 (18:36):
I hope that lasts. You know, I really do.
Speaker 4 (18:38):
And I think what happens when you put down your
phone is that you do other things that are worthwhile,
like reading books, talking to real people, you know, running,
you know, exercising, going outside, whatever it is. And I
think that I actually think that with all this talk about,
(19:00):
you know, how we're all going down the drain because
we're on our phones, I actually think That maybe in
five years, I mean, maybe I'm being super optimistic and
I'm sort of silly, but I just think that maybe
in five years we'll be more connected in real life
to each other and there'll be less of the devices
just because of the way that I'm hearing people talk
about it now.
Speaker 2 (19:20):
I love that.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
I mean, look, I, you know, I, I've, I've mentioned
this on the show before, but my youngest son described somebody,
you know, somebody he knows as an.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
Indoor kid and he meant it very much as an insult.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
Like, you know, we play outside and that kid is
an indoor kid.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
And I see that.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
I see that like my older two, the kids who
are on the phone all the time, it's just, it's,
it's seen as a negative. Um, but I'm just, you know,
with AI and like a lot of people answering the
five year out question with answers on AI, AI is
going to be amazing.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
Yeah. It can be terrible.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
I mean, and, and anywhere in between. Um, I just,
I'm worried people are just moving ever more online and
I'm worried people become friends with their AI and, and
like have relationships and the New York times puts it
In a story as if that's a normal thing to do.
Like she had a relationship with AI and yes, they
had sex.
Speaker 3 (20:15):
What does that even mean?
Speaker 2 (20:16):
No, they did not.
Speaker 3 (20:18):
There's no such thing as that.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
And that's like in the New York Times, you know.
Speaker 3 (20:23):
They're right.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
And then it could spread beyond that. So I love
your optimism. I hope you're right. You could be right.
You could be right.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
I do see this analog movement from the young set.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
I just as things become easier with AI, I hope
that lasts.
Speaker 4 (20:41):
I just think it will be some people. I think
some people will do the AI thing and some people won't.
Speaker 1 (20:46):
Won't.
Speaker 3 (20:47):
And you know what?
Speaker 4 (20:47):
When everyone is plugged into their pods, it'll be the
rest of us that's just hanging out in the world
having a great time.
Speaker 3 (20:52):
So you know what? If they need to plug into
their pod.
Speaker 2 (20:54):
The indoor kids will be indoors.
Speaker 4 (20:55):
Indoor kids can just be indoor kids and the rest
of us will be outside playing in the sun and
it's going to be great.
Speaker 3 (21:01):
So just, you know, join that group. Make sure you're
in that group.
Speaker 2 (21:05):
I love that.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
Faith, you are always one of the most interesting people.
I really miss very few things about Brooklyn, but I
miss seeing you around.
Speaker 3 (21:13):
No, I miss you.
Speaker 1 (21:14):
Come back.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
But no, you should come back.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
But you know, you come visit whenever you want. I'm
really excited to read Wooing Jane. Leave us here with
your best tip for my listeners on how they can
improve their lives.
Speaker 3 (21:31):
Okay. It's very simple. It's this. Hard things are hard.
Speaker 4 (21:37):
So if you want something and it feels hard, that's okay.
You can do it anyway. I think in this day
and age, we think that everything is supposed to be easy.
Speaker 3 (21:47):
We're supposed to take a pill.
Speaker 4 (21:49):
We're supposed to, you know, do some magic thing and
then we'll get what we want.
Speaker 3 (21:54):
But that's not true.
Speaker 4 (21:55):
The things that you want, the really important things are
hard and they make you uncomfortable and they feel bad,
but you can actually do it. It's OK. You can
sit with feeling bad. You can sit with feeling uncomfortable.
And so whatever it is that you actually want, you
can do it. Put all of the objections to the side.
(22:17):
Feel the hard part of it and do it anyway.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
You can do it anyway.
Speaker 3 (22:20):
You can do hard things.
Speaker 2 (22:22):
You can do hard things. I love it. She is
Faith Moore. Pick up her new book, Wooing Jane. And hey,
get Christmas Carol while you're at it.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
Thank you so much for coming on, Faith.
Speaker 3 (22:31):
Thank you so much for having me.
Hi, and welcome back to The Carol Markowitz Show on iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
My guest today is Faith Moore.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
Faith is the host of Storytime for Grownups, a podcast
that helps people learn to love classical literature. She's also
the author of the novel Christmas Carol, published in 2023
by DW Books, and a new novel, Wooing Jane.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Available on October 2nd. Faith's writing has appeared.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
In a variety of venues, including The Wall Street Journal,
The Federalist, The Daily Wire, and The New York Daily News,
among others.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Hi, Faith. So nice to have you on.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
Thanks, Carol, for having me back. It's so good to
be here.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
It's so good to have you.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
Last time you were here, we were talking about your book,
Christmas Carol, which is spelled correctly, K-A-R-O-L.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
Exactly, just for you.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
I obviously really loved it.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
Your new book is Wooing Jane. Is it a shift
in kind of... topic for you or is it in
the same kind of vein as Christmas Carol?
Speaker 4 (01:01):
It's a little bit of a shift in that this
is a romantic comedy. I think Christmas Carol had more
of There was a more of a serious tone to it.
There were some funny moments, but this is really a comedy.
It's a rom-com and it's wacky. It's about what happens
when Henry VIII, the Henry VIII, accidentally time travels into
the present day and ends up helping two kind of sad,
(01:24):
lonely people to fall in love.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
So it's... Oh, I love that.
Speaker 4 (01:27):
Yeah, it's a little zanier. It's a little more silly,
but it's also... hopefully a really fun love story. So
it's a love story in the same way as Christmas Carol,
but a departure otherwise, I think.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
I really love that. Are things so bad?
Speaker 1 (01:42):
Do people have such a hard time meeting each other
that we need the ghost of Henry VIII to like
fly in?
Speaker 3 (01:48):
I don't know. It's possible. I mean, I'm whatever. I'm
an old married lady. I don't really know.
Speaker 4 (01:54):
But it seems to me from where I sit that
something is missing. It seems to me that people are
having a harder time finding partners. I mean, people say
this to me all the time or people will write
in and say to me, you know, I'm doing what
I think are all the right things and I just
(02:15):
can't find the guy.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
I'm the idea for the book was kind of, well,
what is it? What's missing?
Speaker 4 (02:25):
And Henry VIII is a funny role model in a
lot of ways. And that's kind of the joke of
the book is that he's actually a terrible role model.
He did terrible things, but there's one thing he knows.
And that one thing is that a woman wants to
be wooed. And so that's kind of where he comes
in to the picture. And he teaches this pretty sort
(02:48):
of ridiculous man how to do that in a world
that has essentially forgotten, in a world that is sort
of overrun by feminism. And hopefully it's overrun in my
world in a sort of ridiculous and over the top way.
And so I'm not making fun of anyone in particular,
but I am making fun of something which I see,
which is that people don't seem to know how to
(03:09):
relate to each other.
Speaker 3 (03:10):
Men and women don't seem to know how to relate
to each other anymore.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
It's such a good.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
Point that people don't know how to woo anymore. Like,
I think I see a lot of this content online
where women are like, look at me, I should be
able to have whatever man I want. And look at me,
I earn all this money. Like, why can't I just
have any woman I want? And here's royalty being like, well,
you still need to try. You still have to, you know,
attempt at the person. You still need to woo them.
Speaker 4 (03:35):
Yeah. And I think, you know, there's this idea, which
I mean, maybe now is even a little bit outdated.
Speaker 3 (03:41):
It's maybe what are we calling it now? It's woke
one or whatever. But, you know, there's this idea that
chivalry is dead.
Speaker 4 (03:51):
And ought to be right. That's the feminist notion that
women don't want you to. open the door for them
or pay for the meal because that would imply that
you are somehow incapable. And the thing is that that's
not what chivalry is at all. Chivalry is the notion
that a man could. I mean, it comes from, I mean,
(04:13):
this is like a history lesson that you didn't ask for,
but it comes, it comes from the middle ages when
there were all of these knights and knights were a
new idea and they were essentially thugs. They were hired
thugs that these warlords would kind of employ to go
around doing their business. And of course they started to
do what men will do when you give them a
(04:33):
bunch of armor and a sword, they started raping and
pillaging and doing all kinds of things.
Speaker 3 (04:38):
So the.
Speaker 4 (04:41):
No, we don't do that. We actually protect the weak
and the innocent. And they came up with the code
of chivalry. And so the idea is men could harm us.
So we have developed this system to teach them not to,
to channel their baser urges into something better. And that's
the kind of chivalry that Henry VIII would have understood.
(05:04):
That's the kind of chivalry that kind of anyone in
the past would have understood.
Speaker 3 (05:09):
And so.
Speaker 4 (05:10):
Yeah, I think we've forgotten that and women instinctually want
that kind of thing. But then they have to say, well, no,
I'm a strong, independent woman. And then they're miserable and
nobody can find a partner.
Speaker 3 (05:25):
It's so funny.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
I think that there's been a lot of like what
you're supposed to want and then what you actually do want.
And it's been a topic that I've been interested in
for a very, very long time. I don't know if
you remember the show Mad Men. It was the lead
character was this womanizing, very handsome man. And there was
a lot of discourse online at the time with like,
(05:46):
I I'm attracted to him and I don't want to be.
And it's like, you, you know, the, the idea of
like what you, what you want and what you're supposed
to want being at odds with each other. I feel
like it's a very modern one. I think, you know,
you kind of used to want what you want and
that was it. And I love the idea that chivalry
is something that is meant to protect women.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
It's not like a learned, it is a learned behavior,
but it's, it's a, Something that men do for us.
Speaker 4 (06:13):
That's exactly right. I mean, that is exactly what it is.
And nobody in the past would have said anything different. And,
you know, and I think this concept that, oh, well,
you know, I don't need that because I'm a strong,
independent woman.
Speaker 3 (06:29):
It's like, okay, fine. You don't need it. You're right.
You can open a door. You're right.
Speaker 4 (06:34):
You can put on your own coat. But isn't it
nice to know that this person... wants to take care
of you, that he's not going to harm you, that
he's here to do things for you because the opposite
would be really bad. And so the joke in the
book is that one of the main characters, the man, has...
(06:55):
tried to be chivalrous, but he lives in a world
where nobody wants that. And so in order to try
to get a date, he has gone completely the other way.
Speaker 3 (07:03):
And so he's always kind of slamming doors.
Speaker 4 (07:04):
In women's faces and he's, you know, making sure that
they pay for.
Speaker 3 (07:09):
Their own meal.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
I've seen this line of rhetoric.
Speaker 3 (07:11):
On mine too. Exactly. So I've sort of amped that
up to the nth degree.
Speaker 4 (07:15):
And It just shows you how ridiculous that really is
and that we do.
Speaker 3 (07:22):
And I think you're absolutely right.
Speaker 4 (07:24):
We are attracted to the kind of man that we
have been told we shouldn't want. And I think the
problem is that in a world where you're not supposed
to do that, then it becomes the, what's his name,
Don Draper or whatever.
Speaker 3 (07:38):
It becomes the Don Drapers of the world who embody that.
And they're actually not the best men.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
Oh, totally.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
You don't want Don Drapers.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
More likely that you'll be attracted to them if you're
told you're not supposed to be. If you're like, if
you could just be attracted to whoever you want, I
don't think you end up choosing the Don Drapers who are,
you know, troubled and like a little irritating.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
I always found him kind of babyish. He was very
needy and, you know, I didn't think anything of him.
Speaker 1 (08:03):
And I feel like that was because I was allowed
to find him attractive.
Speaker 3 (08:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (08:08):
But I also think like, if you kind of socially
outlaw those qualities of kind of masculinity and chivalry, then
the only people who embody them are kind of awful people.
And so then you're like, why am I attracted to
this guy who's actually really awful that I wouldn't want
to be with in real life? Well, it's because he's
the only one who's saying, well, I don't care what
(08:30):
you say. I'm going to do these things. And those
things are attractive people. even when we see them in
people that we actually don't really want, like Henry VIII.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
Did you have fun writing Wooing Jane?
Speaker 3 (08:44):
It was the best fun. I mean, I actually kind
of for a long time was like, I can't write
this book. No one's going to read it. It's too weird.
Speaker 4 (08:53):
It's too crazy. But it's very me. It's weird and
crazy in the way that I am. And so it
was tons of fun. And, you know, weirdly, I am
kind of a tutor history buff. That's not something I
ever thought I would say about myself. But yeah, I
was a terrible history student. I mean, the worst history
student in school. My mom had to read my, this
(09:14):
is embarrassing. My mom had to read my textbooks for
me and then explain what they said because I just
couldn't get it. But in my 20s, I read this
terrible romance novel called The Other Boleyn Girl, which has
now been made into a movie.
Speaker 3 (09:25):
And I just, I said, which, what if this is true?
And I just went down this crazy rabbit hole that
lasted like 20 years.
Speaker 4 (09:34):
And here I am writing a book about Henry VIII.
Speaker 3 (09:35):
So yeah, it was tons of fun, a blast.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
So it's amazing to me because I think of you as,
you know, you have this, you host the Storytime for
Grownups where you help people understand classic literature.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
So it's very hard for me to imagine you unable
to read history.
Speaker 4 (09:52):
Yeah, well, that's actually the point of the podcast is
that when I was growing up, I really struggled to read.
And you know, I always loved to read and I
would read, you know, kids books and things when I
was a kid. But if you handed me a work of,
you know, a history book or even a classic literature book,
(10:13):
I just couldn't figure it out.
Speaker 3 (10:14):
I couldn't follow it.
Speaker 4 (10:15):
And I knew that there was a whole world out
there of wonderful stories and wonderful information that I just
wasn't getting. And so I think, you know, for me,
I was lucky. I came from a very literate family.
I did a lot of writing. You know, reading that
I maybe wouldn't have done if I hadn't been encouraged
(10:37):
in that way. And so I did kind of end
up finding my way in. And that's why I created
the show, because I wanted other people to be able
to access the great books of the past, which really
are hard to read. And I think sometimes we're embarrassed
that we don't understand them.
Speaker 3 (10:50):
And so we give up. And my feeling is don't
give up. You just need some help. And that's OK.
Speaker 4 (10:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
Yeah. So I was on your father's show recently, Andrew Coleman,
and I was telling him that he lives the dream.
Both of his kids are married, you know, have spouses
and it's all you want for your kids.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
And again, it's so hard in this like.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
New dating world and all of that. And I have
teenagers and I definitely worry about the future. In Wooing Jane,
you talk about how to woo, how people should meet
each other. I mean, I think, I think your family
needs to do some sort of how to, how do
you get your kids married?
Speaker 2 (11:27):
How do you do it successfully? Yeah, that would be great.
Speaker 4 (11:30):
We can, we can stop everything that we're doing and
we'll just, I would watch that slave and family dating
show or like match.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
Oh my gosh, that would be so good. Great.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (11:38):
Apply now. You've heard it here. Apply now.
Speaker 4 (11:41):
And you know, we'll, we'll match you up with your perfect,
your perfect spouse.
Speaker 3 (11:45):
And no, I don't.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
I could see that being a.
Speaker 3 (11:48):
Hit, actually.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
Daily Wire, what are they up to?
Speaker 3 (11:52):
Yeah, OK. Hello, universe. Please give us that show. That'll
be so much fun. Yeah. You know, I think that
I think that one.
Speaker 4 (12:01):
Of the things and this is something that I deal
with in the book is that when so many of
our relationships are online, not just our romantic relationships but
our friend relationships so you know the female main character
in the book jane her best friends are these women
online that all impersonate wives of henry the eighth and
they do that on online oh wow and but when
(12:26):
that happens There's a way in which those people become
just like the perfect version that you see in your
head of those people and you can turn them into
whoever you want. And in reality, people are so much messier.
Speaker 3 (12:42):
They're so much more flawed. They're so much more complicated.
I mean, in the book, Jane also has a relationship
with sex.
Speaker 4 (12:48):
A Henry VIII account and she's kind of falling in
love with it, but she doesn't know who it is
or if he's even a he or if.
Speaker 3 (12:55):
He's like an old man.
Speaker 4 (12:56):
I mean, she doesn't know, but she's created this whole
image in her mind of who this person would be.
And even these friends who, you know, she now talked
to them on FaceTime or whatever, and she texts with them,
and she knows who they are, but they've never met
in real life. And I think that allows you to
build up this picture such that when you meet either
(13:18):
those real people or other people, and they're so much
more complicated, then you feel really let down, you feel confused,
and you think, oh, okay, well, this guy's not right. So,
you know, if you've been talking to somebody from a
dating app, for a while, and you've built them up
in your mind, and then you meet them, they're never
(13:39):
going to be.
Speaker 3 (13:40):
Who you thought that they were. You've turned them into
like Prince Charming, essentially. And then, you know, maybe they
chew funny or something and you give up.
Speaker 4 (13:49):
And I think that's one of the big things that's
going on right now is that people need to remember
that Reality is in fact the most important thing. It's
okay to have online friends. It's okay to meet people
online and online dating sites are great. But reality is
the most important thing and you need to live in reality.
Speaker 3 (14:10):
And I think that's a tricky thing right now.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
Such a good point, because how could fantasy, how could
reality compete with fantasy? Fantasy is the perfection you've built
in your head and reality has so many problems and flaws,
but it's clearly the better thing because it's real.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
I think that's such a good message for young people.
Speaker 1 (14:29):
You know, the fantasy person online, the Henry VIII that
you're talking to on the internet. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
Could be anybody, but Henry VIII in real life.
Speaker 3 (14:39):
That's right. Exactly.
Speaker 4 (14:40):
And, you know, there's something I'm playing with in the book,
which is that, you know, the Henry VIII that comes
into the present day is really kind of Jane's imaginary
version of Henry VIII. And he's not kind of the
tyrant that we know that he ended up becoming. And
it's kind of a play on basically parasocial relationships, you know,
the way that we form these bonds with people that.
Speaker 3 (15:03):
That don't even know that we exist.
Speaker 4 (15:05):
People, celebrities or podcast hosts or whatever it is, we
form these attachments and those are good and it's fine.
But when you build your whole life around something like that,
that's when it starts to become a problem because you
can't break out of that. And you can't see real
(15:27):
people for what they are. You're comparing them all the
time to the fantasy version of people that you.
Speaker 3 (15:33):
Have in your mind. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (15:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
And the reality is just it can't compete.
Speaker 3 (15:37):
It can't. Exactly.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
Faith, what is the thing you're most proud of in
your own life?
Speaker 3 (15:44):
Gosh, that's hard because I don't often feel proud of myself.
But I think They're amazing.
Speaker 2 (15:50):
How could you not feel proud of yourself?
Speaker 3 (15:52):
Thank you.
Speaker 4 (15:52):
That's very nice. And I always feel good when people
say that. But I think probably that I haven't compromised
my values in order to do the things that I
wanted to do. You know, I when I had my kids,
I really kind of set out to be a stay
at home mom. And to be the kind of mom
that stays home for the long haul, like not just
(16:13):
for the first few years or whatever that I would
be here so that, you know, there could be sick
days and I could do school pickup and all of
those things. And all of the things that I've built
in my life, like the podcast and the writing and
all the things that I do, I've slotted into the
places where, you know, my kids are at school or,
(16:34):
you know, they're they're doing something else. And so I
think that allows me to feel really good about the
things that I'm doing and not conflicted. You know, I
don't have to feel like, oh, I feel guilty for
doing this because I'm not over here doing that. And
so I think building a life, figuring out what your
actual values are and then building a life from that
(16:56):
is a good way to kind of craft a life.
And I feel like I'm proud that I've done that.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
I love that.
Speaker 1 (17:03):
Because there's so much conversation around like trad wives and
working women and whatever, but like figure out what your
values are and then craft your life around that is
actually the best advice. And we'll get to what your
actual advice is for our listeners at the end. But
that is such a good point that, you know, you
don't have to live in somebody else's version of what
(17:24):
your life should be. Figure out what it is for
yourself and for your family and go do that.
Speaker 2 (17:29):
I really enjoy that.
Speaker 3 (17:30):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
Give us a five year out prediction and it could
be about anything at all.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
Music, art, the world, anything, books, anything.
Speaker 3 (17:39):
I think we're going to get off our phones more.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
Really? Yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:43):
I feel really hopeful about this.
Speaker 4 (17:44):
And I know that's weird because I know we're all
talking about how awful it is that we're all on
our phones and AI and it's going to take over
the world and everything's terrible. But I think, you know,
one thing I'm seeing is parents becoming more and more
aware that The screens, the devices, all of that are
bad for their kids. And, you know, some parents are like,
(18:08):
I don't know what to do. But I think a
lot of people are really trying to make some changes.
Speaker 3 (18:13):
So I see that. And I also see kids changing. saying.
Speaker 4 (18:16):
I mean, teenagers, I don't know what your teenagers are saying.
I'm sure you're great about this with them. But, you know,
I hear them saying, I don't want this. You know,
I don't want to be on my phone all the time.
I know that in college classes, professors are making kids
write essays by hand and that kids are thanking them
for it.
Speaker 3 (18:36):
I hope that lasts. You know, I really do.
Speaker 4 (18:38):
And I think what happens when you put down your
phone is that you do other things that are worthwhile,
like reading books, talking to real people, you know, running,
you know, exercising, going outside, whatever it is. And I
think that I actually think that with all this talk about,
(19:00):
you know, how we're all going down the drain because
we're on our phones, I actually think That maybe in
five years, I mean, maybe I'm being super optimistic and
I'm sort of silly, but I just think that maybe
in five years we'll be more connected in real life
to each other and there'll be less of the devices
just because of the way that I'm hearing people talk
about it now.
Speaker 2 (19:20):
I love that.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
I mean, look, I, you know, I, I've, I've mentioned
this on the show before, but my youngest son described somebody,
you know, somebody he knows as an.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
Indoor kid and he meant it very much as an insult.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
Like, you know, we play outside and that kid is
an indoor kid.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
And I see that.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
I see that like my older two, the kids who
are on the phone all the time, it's just, it's,
it's seen as a negative. Um, but I'm just, you know,
with AI and like a lot of people answering the
five year out question with answers on AI, AI is
going to be amazing.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
Yeah. It can be terrible.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
I mean, and, and anywhere in between. Um, I just,
I'm worried people are just moving ever more online and
I'm worried people become friends with their AI and, and
like have relationships and the New York times puts it
In a story as if that's a normal thing to do.
Like she had a relationship with AI and yes, they
had sex.
Speaker 3 (20:15):
What does that even mean?
Speaker 2 (20:16):
No, they did not.
Speaker 3 (20:18):
There's no such thing as that.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
And that's like in the New York Times, you know.
Speaker 3 (20:23):
They're right.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
And then it could spread beyond that. So I love
your optimism. I hope you're right. You could be right.
You could be right.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
I do see this analog movement from the young set.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
I just as things become easier with AI, I hope
that lasts.
Speaker 4 (20:41):
I just think it will be some people. I think
some people will do the AI thing and some people won't.
Speaker 1 (20:46):
Won't.
Speaker 3 (20:47):
And you know what?
Speaker 4 (20:47):
When everyone is plugged into their pods, it'll be the
rest of us that's just hanging out in the world
having a great time.
Speaker 3 (20:52):
So you know what? If they need to plug into
their pod.
Speaker 2 (20:54):
The indoor kids will be indoors.
Speaker 4 (20:55):
Indoor kids can just be indoor kids and the rest
of us will be outside playing in the sun and
it's going to be great.
Speaker 3 (21:01):
So just, you know, join that group. Make sure you're
in that group.
Speaker 2 (21:05):
I love that.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
Faith, you are always one of the most interesting people.
I really miss very few things about Brooklyn, but I
miss seeing you around.
Speaker 3 (21:13):
No, I miss you.
Speaker 1 (21:14):
Come back.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
But no, you should come back.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
But you know, you come visit whenever you want. I'm
really excited to read Wooing Jane. Leave us here with
your best tip for my listeners on how they can
improve their lives.
Speaker 3 (21:31):
Okay. It's very simple. It's this. Hard things are hard.
Speaker 4 (21:37):
So if you want something and it feels hard, that's okay.
You can do it anyway. I think in this day
and age, we think that everything is supposed to be easy.
Speaker 3 (21:47):
We're supposed to take a pill.
Speaker 4 (21:49):
We're supposed to, you know, do some magic thing and
then we'll get what we want.
Speaker 3 (21:54):
But that's not true.
Speaker 4 (21:55):
The things that you want, the really important things are
hard and they make you uncomfortable and they feel bad,
but you can actually do it. It's OK. You can
sit with feeling bad. You can sit with feeling uncomfortable.
And so whatever it is that you actually want, you
can do it. Put all of the objections to the side.
(22:17):
Feel the hard part of it and do it anyway.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
You can do it anyway.
Speaker 3 (22:20):
You can do hard things.
Speaker 2 (22:22):
You can do hard things. I love it. She is
Faith Moore. Pick up her new book, Wooing Jane. And hey,
get Christmas Carol while you're at it.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
Thank you so much for coming on, Faith.
Speaker 3 (22:31):
Thank you so much for having me.
The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show News
Hosts And Creators
Clay Travis
Buck Sexton
Show Links
WebsiteNewsletterPopular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.