Why are millennials and Gen Z having less sex than previous generations? On this episode of The Karol Markowicz Show, neuroscientist and author Dr. Debra Soh joins Karol to discuss the growing “sex recession” and the cultural forces driving it.
Drawing from her new book Sextinction: The Decline of Sex and the Future of Intimacy, Dr. Soh explains how dating apps, social media, pornography, declining testosterone, and loneliness are reshaping modern relationships. She also explores how technology—from AI companions to sex robots—could dramatically change dating, intimacy, and even reproduction in the near future.
Karol and Dr. Soh dive into why young men are increasingly shut out of the dating market, how screens are weakening social skills, and what the long-term consequences could be for society. They also discuss the politicization of science, Dr. Soh’s departure from academia, and practical advice for rebuilding real-world relationships in a digital age.
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
Hi, and welcome back to the Carol Markowitz Show on iHeartRadio.
My guest today is doctor Debra So, a neuroscientist who
specializes in human sexuality and biological explanations for behavior. As
a journalist, she writes about technology, internet, subcultures, health, and
the politicization of science. Her writing has appeared in Harper's Magazine,
(00:27):
The Wall Street Journal, The Los Angeles Times, The Globe
and Mail, and many other publications. Her first book, The
End of Gender, has been translated into six languages and
was featured in the Daily Wire film What Is a Woman.
Her new book is Sextinction, The Decline of Sex and
the Future of Intimacy. So nice to have you on, Deborah.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Longtime fan of yours, and I've always enjoyed how you
make scientific concepts understandable.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
I feel like two regular non science see people. I
feel like me.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
What's going on that people aren't having sex anymore?
Speaker 3 (01:04):
Well, thanks so much for your kind words, and I've
been a huge fan of yours as well, so I'm.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Very excited to get to speak with you.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
So with sex Stinction, my latest book, I was curious
to see whether this concept of the sex recession is
real because I've been hearing a lot about how people
were not having as much sex as previously, and at
the time I thought this was overblown and that people
were just creating a moral panic out of nothing. There
was a study that came out in twenty sixteen that
showed that Americans were having less sex than ever before,
(01:32):
and this was the case for everyone, all age cohorts
didn't matter if you were married or single. But what
was most interesting was that this was especially pronounced in
younger generations, so millennials, and this was expected to continue
on in Gen Z and so since then, multiple studies
have come out showing the same trend, and more specifically,
the number that I keep seeing is that one in
(01:52):
three men and one in five women have not had
sex in the past year, and again this is especially
prominent among millennials and Gen Z. With sextinction, I each
chapter is looking at a different potential explanation as to
why this is happening. And my interest in sexual inactivity
or sexlessness is partially because I used to study sex scientifically,
(02:12):
but also because I think sex is a reflection of
community connection and emotional intimacy, and so people are not
interested in having sex, then what is taking its place
and what is causing this disinterest?
Speaker 1 (02:25):
Right? So on this show, there's like we do an
advice segment from time to time, and I really thought
all of the advice questions I would get would be
how to meet a guy, what I had to do
in this relationship situation. But the great majority of questions
that I get, I mean I'm talking like over eighty
five percent, I would say, are about friendship and how
to make friends and how to talk to people and
(02:46):
how to you know, I've moved to this new town,
how do I make a friend? But I've lived in
this city my whole life? How do I make friends?
I think that's the first step for people? But do
you see that in terms of your sex research? Is
it used to be we didn't need to have friends
in order to go have sex, right?
Speaker 2 (03:02):
So why is this now the case?
Speaker 1 (03:05):
How come we've moved to the situation where people don't
know how to talk to each other and also don't
know how to meet people to have sex with.
Speaker 3 (03:13):
I think screens and dating apps have played a big
role in this. Social media as well has really warped
the way people perceive themselves and how they perceive the
opposite sex, and how they think they should go about
approaching the opposite sex, or whether they should at all,
especially for men my senses, men are really terrified post
me too, that their life is going to be ruined
if they talk to a woman who is not interested.
And also I think some young women genuinely believe that
(03:35):
if a man approaches you and you don't know him,
that is by definition sexual harassment. So there's this very
polarized dynamic between the sexes. I think also, like you
said with the question about making friends, is we are
increasingly lonely. We do have fewer friends on average than
in previous generations, and part of it is that also
people used to meet their partners through friends and family
(03:56):
or through work, so all of those scenarios I mean,
I guess you can meet people through family, but the
likelihood of meeting someone through someone you know or through
an everyday normal occurrence is much less common nowadays. And
I think also to some extent frowned upon or seen
as not as convenient, because there's this perception that if
you go on a dating app. At least I think
(04:18):
this was the perception when dating apps first, starting in
popular that it's so much easier that you can just
go on swipe. You can go through all of these
potential partners in one sitting. You don't have to go
through the trouble of going out to a party or
you know, making small talk of people you're not interested in.
But I do think that dating apps have done a
really large disservice to dating because they aren't really as efficient.
(04:38):
I mean, what you see if you look at someone's
profile that doesn't really capture who that person is in
any capacity. And then most people, as I mentioned in sextinction,
a lot of people who are on dating apps are
not even really looking for a relationship or even to date,
or even to meet or to even have a conversation.
Some people are just on there swiping for validation to
see who might actually swipe back on them stay. And
then there's the algorithmic aspect too, that you're not fully
(05:00):
control of whom you're being shown to, and of the
people you do swipe on, do they even see that
you're interested in them? So all of these factors I mean,
in terms of like an evolutionary perspective, dating apps are
completely unlike anything we would have ever experienced in our
ancestral history, there's no time during which we would have
been able to sit in one place and go through
potential hundreds of partners in one sitting. So all of
(05:22):
that combined makes people feel really demoralized. It makes them
feel like there's really nobody out there for them if
you're spending a lot of time on even if nowadays
people use social media even as a way to meet
potential partners, and I just think the best way is
going out into real life. But like you said that,
the first step of that is to have social skills
and have the confidence to do that, which is very difficult.
So I think that speaks to potentially why people are
(05:44):
reaching out to you. But I think that's great that people,
you know, acknowledge that this is a step and that
if you don't know to ask for help right absolutely.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
You know. It's interesting because I obviously I would think
that the screens are playing a role in this.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
But my take or my guests would.
Speaker 1 (05:59):
Have been that, sure, the screens stop you from forming relationships,
but how do they How are people having less sex
because of the screens? I mean, there literally have a
world of opportunity to meet people to sleep. But maybe
those aren't going to turn into relationships and maybe they're
not going to get married. But how come the sex
(06:19):
is being affected by it? I would think it would
be the opposite.
Speaker 3 (06:23):
Yeah, well, with the screens are a number of different
It depends, I guess, on the content that you're looking at.
Pornography is one major factor that I talk about in
the book. I think even something like social media. Social
media is essential pornography nowadays as well, depending on the
platform you're on. But also there was one study I
found quite interesting that one in ten men found that
after looking at social media influencers, they were less interested
(06:43):
in having sex with their partner. So these are even
within couples and people who are married, there's less of
an interest in engaging with your sexual partner. And roughly
one in ten women also felt less sexually desirable after
being on social media, so even when you have a
regular partner. I mean that's really interesting too, because contrary
to what you most people might believe, married people actually
(07:03):
do have more sex than single people because obviously you're
sharing the bed with someone at night, so it's not
like if you're single, even if you have a bunch
of regular hookups, say it's a lot more time consuming,
more effort to you know, and then there are no
bad you know, your boundaries are not as well defined
and things like that. So if married people are having
less sex, that speaks to like, really there's.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
Something going on here.
Speaker 3 (07:24):
And then with porn also, I would say because people
are I mean, this is predominantly men, but I think
more women are watching porn, especially the younger generations like
gen Z basically grew up watching pornography from a very
young age because of their early access to smartphones. And
so what happens is if you are regularly getting settled
sexual gratification from the screen, that can become reinforcing. And
I think also for men, I've heard from many men
(07:45):
who have said this to me that watching pornography is
actually diminish their interest in actually going out and meeting
real women. And also, I mean, I think when you
have the gratification that comes with I don't know how
graphic can be on your podcast, but I'll just say
that gust from having an orgasm, you know, it sdates
you to some extent, So not just yease of your
(08:06):
sexual frustration in that moment, were more broadly for men especially.
I think if they're scared to approach women, understandably that okay, well,
they know they don't really have to do that to
get sexual gratification.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
They can just turn to porn, right.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
You know, there was that joke slash truth that people
are more afraid to speak in public.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
Than they are of death.
Speaker 1 (08:26):
And it makes me think that men being afraid to
approach women. You know, I was a child of the
nineties where AIDS was still going on, and I think
that that was kind of still a concern for people,
even though you know, obviously it was more limited to
certain populations, and maybe we didn't know that so much
at the time, but it seems like even then people
(08:46):
were still having risky sex and the consequence was death. Here,
the consequence is like awkward interaction and people can't do
it anymore.
Speaker 2 (08:55):
Do you see that or is that not right? That's
a really interesting perspective.
Speaker 3 (09:01):
I think also COVID did something to us because the
norm very much now is self isolation. Right, And even
if you are saying a couple like, it's crazy to
me when I see couples in public, many times I
will see them both on their phones basically having an
interaction with their phone, and then if they do interact
with each other, it's to point at something on their phone,
which is wild to me because something I get happy
(09:23):
when I see younger couples.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
I'm like, oh, maybe you know, it's not so bad.
Speaker 3 (09:26):
But then I see them on their phones and just
not even speaking to each other. So I think there's something.
There's like a normalization of always being on your phone,
especially in public, so you're not talking to people, whereas back.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
Then smartphones didn't exist, so we were forced to talk
to you.
Speaker 3 (09:39):
If you're standing in line and you're bored, you're naturally
going to turn to the person side Junes make small talk,
and it wasn't seen as weird or as potentially threatening
back then. Also, so I think the social norms and
then also post COVID just people probably have habituated a
little bit to this self isolation.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
Does sextinction offer a prescription for this? Do you have
any solution that we can work towards.
Speaker 3 (10:03):
Yes, So I do have an optimistic outlook on this.
I wrote well in terms of the potential, but the
question is is that actually going to come into fruition.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
We'll see I wrote the book.
Speaker 3 (10:14):
With the hopes that it will help people see what's
coming down the line and say five years from now,
ten years from now, and to avoid the pitfalls that
are associated with that, because I think we learned a
large lesson with say social media and smartphones looking back,
but at the time, I think most of us were
pretty clueless.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
We just thought as oh, this is fantastic.
Speaker 3 (10:32):
I have a personal computer basically in my pocket at
all times. What could go wrong? And so with these
various technologies that I talk about, whether it is you know,
pornography and AI companions, sex robots and sex dolls, I
talk about endocrine disruptors and environmental toxins. I think that's
a big piece of the puzzle in terms of our
physical health, and in some ways we aren't even fully
(10:54):
aware even at this time, with as much awareness as
we do have, you know, some larger forces are incentivized
to keep this information from us. So if we are
not fully physically healthy, and if our hormones are being
messed with, especially for men in their declining testosterone, we
have no real hope of fully fixing this problem because
our sex drive and our sexual interest is not going
(11:15):
to be restored to.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
What it would be otherwise.
Speaker 3 (11:18):
And I also talk about things like reproductive technology, the
birth control pill, like freezing in mutual fertilization. And my
goal is just to give people unbiased information so that
they can make better decisions in their own lives. So
I do think it's possible to turn things around, but
I question whether that will happen because we all know
(11:38):
how bad being on the screens is, but.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
We do it anyway exactly.
Speaker 1 (11:44):
But what are the kind of changes that we're going
to experience when we do have more robots around? Or
AI is something that people talk to like the way
that they do to a friend.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
You say you're optimistic. I'm kind of you know, I'm.
Speaker 1 (11:58):
Generally an optimist, but I'm sort of pessimistic about this,
just because people are taking this safer route of not
having their feelings hurt by talking to somebody in real life.
AI will never hurt your feelings. AI will never be
awkward or weird with you.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
And I see people leaning into that and treating AI
like it's a person, like it's a friend. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (12:20):
That chapter I wrote on AI Companions was crazy to
me because it was so realistic. I wasn't expecting it
to be as realistic as it is, and that technology
is only advancing so rapidly. So like you said, people
are falling in love with their AI chatbots. They are
using AI chatbots as a replacement for dating in real
life partners and friends, because like you said, the chatbot
(12:41):
will never tell you what you don't want to hear. You.
Speaker 2 (12:43):
If it says something you.
Speaker 3 (12:44):
Don't like, you can just click on a button and
tell it what you want it to stay next time.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
So over time it learns.
Speaker 3 (12:50):
What you prefer, and it's not going to challenge you.
It's not going to nag you, it's not going to
give you problems. It's always going to be totally fixated
on you and your needs. And so if you combine
that with the same the sexual aspect, which some people do,
then again it's like pornography, but it's much more interactive.
It's an emotional connection as well, and so people sexual
and emotional needs are being met. So I do think
(13:12):
more people are going to be turning towards this technology,
and I would say even more so in women because
when you look at something like that sex dolls and
sex robots that's primarily been targeted and I think consumed
by men because access to sex is much more difficult
for men than for women on average. But for women
because women place more of an emphasis on their emotional
needs being met, especially in the context of a relationship,
(13:34):
or we'll say women are less likely to have those
emotional needs met in the context of a relationship.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
Then the AI.
Speaker 3 (13:40):
Comes in as a really nice replacement in some ways.
I mean, I think it could initially start as something
that you use in tandem to your relationship, but over
time someone could easily say, actually, I prefer my AI
to my real life partner.
Speaker 2 (13:51):
Because my AI, Yeah, it's easy, it.
Speaker 3 (13:53):
Doesn't create any problems for me, doesn't give me any
additional stress. There's no uncertainty there. That's the other thing,
because other people are very much you know, they have
their own minds and their own autonomy. So that's one way.
And then I think for men also, we see a
large segment of young men being shut out from the
mating market because men are on average falling behind their
female peers in terms of education and occupation socioeconomic status,
(14:17):
and women tend to want to date or marry men
who are at the same level of status to themselves
or people who are men who are more successful. So
what happens is for these young men who cannot get
access to any partners or have women who are not
interested in them, they're going to go further down this
rabbit hole of not just the AI girlfriends, but also
when this technology can be implanted into a realistic sex robot.
(14:38):
I mean, I did a big investigation into sex robots,
and they are the technologies is slowly moving in that direction.
I mean, there are aready people who approaching this purchasing this technology,
so I see it continue like bo both sexes are
going to continue going in opposite directions. And ultimately, I
mean some people might say, well, what about for the
purposes of procreation, you will need another person for that.
(15:00):
But at some point, at this point, yes, but at
some point, if it continues the way it's going, I
could see it being that men men who have the
means can simply use either a surrogate or use a
synthetic body like a robot, which they are developing this
technology where they can implant, you know, and give birth
that way, so they're not even reliant on really needing
(15:22):
a woman to terrifying. And then we also see a
single motherhood by choice, which is another thing I talk
about with women who reach a point where they say,
I can't find a man, a suitable man who might
like to have children with, so they go their own way.
And yeah, it's really unfortunate because I think at the core,
we all want to fall in love, we all want
to bond with someone and find someone for life, and
(15:44):
we're moving in very swiftly in the opposite direction inaction.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
Right, We're going to take a quick break and be
right back on the Carol Marcowitch Show. How did you
get into being a neuroscientist who specializes in human sextual
What was the path?
Speaker 3 (16:01):
fMRI research was really interesting to me. So the idea
that you could look at the brain and see what
parts of the brain were activated during a brain scan,
I just thought that was the wildless technology. So fMRI
technology has been around since about the nineties. MRI technology
has been around longer than that. So MRI is looking
at the structure of the body or the brain, and
then fMRI specifically looks at brain activation. So that's what
(16:24):
initially piqued my interest. And then in terms of sexuality research,
I did a placement in graduate school, and I didn't
know such a thing even existed back then. I didn't
know that you could study sex. But I liked it
because I found the subject so taboo. And whenever I
told someone my placement is, you know, I'm looking at
the brains of I'm looking at sexual arousal in the brain,
people would either say, Wow, that's really interesting or they
(16:46):
would be really weirded out and disgustingly comfortable. Yeah, And
I liked that because I thought, there's a part of
me too that feels like it's a bit uncomfortable to
talk about, and I want to push myself to do
this because there's no reason why it should be so
that way.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
So that's why I ended up.
Speaker 3 (16:59):
You know, I finished my PhD and neuroscience, and then
my switch into journalism was totally unpredictable as well, just
because academia had become way too woke, and I thought,
this is really doing a disservice to the public because
biology is seen as verbotens, so you can only really
discuss things in the context of socially constructed ideas or say,
(17:21):
like at the time when I was graduating, I know,
like everything was blamed on the part patriarchy.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
You know, there's there's no still the case. So it
was very much.
Speaker 3 (17:30):
Just feeling like, Okay, I'm frustrated, I feel very limited,
and I know that if I stay in academia, I
have to stay quiet about certain things. And then the
issue of gender transitioning and children was also like very
popular at that time. I mean it still is. It's
thankfully that idea is slowly dying out. I really appreciate
the coverage you've been doing on this and just just
the insanity in general about transgender ideology and all this nonsense.
(17:52):
So you know, I wrote this off ed criticizing gender
transitioning of kids, and I knew that after that point
I would be able to stay in academia, which.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
Was fine for me. So I feel very blessed to
get to speak with you now and put the second book.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
You don't get to come back now that everybody's changing
their minds.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
They're not like, sorry, doctor, so come back.
Speaker 3 (18:09):
No.
Speaker 2 (18:09):
Once you're a trader, you're a trader for life. But
I honestly don't.
Speaker 3 (18:12):
I don't know that I would even because it just
feels so much for free. Now I don't have to
worry about like saying the wrong thing and then having
people you know want to avoid you, or it's just yeah,
I can say whatever you want, which is the best feeling.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
I love that. Yeah, what are you most proud of
in your life?
Speaker 3 (18:34):
Probably my resilience, I think, because, like I said, like
making that switch in my career was really unpredictable.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
I didn't know what to expect.
Speaker 3 (18:43):
But I also I think on one key theme in
Sextinction is especially saying to young people and to young
men who feel really demoralized, is that you have to
keep going. And I think it's very easy to look
at someone like myself or any of us, to look
at you, Carolyn, to say, well, easy for you to
say that, like, how would you know? That we've all
gone through things in life, We've all struggled, right, And
I think the thing that separates people who move forward
(19:05):
and the people who stay in one place is just
that mindset of I'm going to do what I need
to do to grow and to get better and to
overcome these obstacles instead of being consumed by them. But
I really do want to emphasize I feel a lot
of compassion for these young men hear. I hear from
very many of them on social media. They're very upset
with me because they say, well, easy for you to say.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
That you're a woman, you're a minority.
Speaker 3 (19:28):
But I think a big piece of it is mental health.
You know, like five percent of the globe right now
is depressed, and so I think also with the sexlessness problem,
but also with motivation and self esteem more broadly, And
just why people are also so obsessed with screens is
because it does help you avoid interacting with other people.
If you're depressed and anxious, you don't really want to
(19:49):
be in the presence of other people who could potentially
judge you, who could potentially reject you or make you
feel badly about yourself. Not to say that people generally do,
but especially if you're struggling with your mental health, people
tend to be a little bit more i'd say, hyper
vigilant about that. So I would say for people who
are struggling, definitely like prioritize that you know, it's okay,
there's no shame if you're struggling, but just to recognize that,
(20:09):
help us out there and you can get better, and
just to take tiny steps moving forward.
Speaker 1 (20:14):
Absolutely give us a five year out prediction and it
could be about anything, but I'd love to hear a
sextinction prediction.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
If you have one, I.
Speaker 3 (20:24):
Would say, like we were saying, I do think AI
companion within five years, I see AA companions becoming mainstream.
I see people bringing them to parties, to weddings or really,
oh I too, really, Oh no, no, you got to
shame them back into their like hubble.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
Ready, Carol, you're going to be like you're gonna be
at events. I'm going to be judging, very openly judging.
Do you want to meet my girlfriend or my boyfriend? No,
I don't.
Speaker 3 (20:50):
And because they're completely customizable, so for your audience in
case they haven't tried this technology, like, you can pick
what they look like, you choose their names.
Speaker 2 (20:56):
I made a bunch of them.
Speaker 3 (20:57):
I made tons of them for this book to trust
to try them, and you really can customize them, Tony,
any permutation of what you're looking for in terms of
physical attributes, personality, voice, pet names for you. So i'd
see that becoming mainstream. I do think, say, like sex robots,
once the price point goes down enough that people can
it's more affordable. Right now, the average sex spot is
(21:18):
probably about ten k starting at ten k and the
technology is still not the greatest, but once it starts,
you know, becoming more affordable, I think that's also going
to become much more mainstream. And I didn't think this
would ever happen, but I do think it will become
more socially acceptable because the more people consume something, and
if they don't have other options, and again I feel
a lot of empathy for these men and can't get
(21:39):
other options, then people will say, Okay, well whom I
who am I to look down on this? Right? It's
all if it's all a guy can get. But I
would argue, you know, I think a better use of
that money would be invested in again, therapy anything, and
also women, women, real women to date and if you
you feel that there's no one out there for you,
or that you've had purely negative experiences with men or women,
(21:59):
to look deeper into why that is, as opposed to
turning to these circuits that aren't going to help. They're
not going to help the loneliness. I think the loneliness,
the so called loneliness epidemic, is gonna get worse. And
I worry about the younger generation, worry about Jen Alpha,
who are roughly age thirteen and younger. Because they spend
a lot of time on screens too, they are being
supposed to porn at increasingly younger ages two and this
(22:21):
technology if once they hit even before they hit puberty,
if this technology is ready normalized, it's going to be
really an uphill battle to try and keep them away
from it.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
Look, I feel very sorry for the people who are
lonely and can't find somebody, or feel that they're unworthy
or any of that. But I pledge to you right here,
I'm never going to just be accepting somebody bringing a
sex doll to a party and say like, oh, you.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
Really just couldn't meet anybody. I guess this is what
we have to put up with.
Speaker 1 (22:49):
I don't know it's going to have to be after
I die, because I don't think I'm in five years
from now. I'm just going to be nodding along with
the story of the sex spot.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
What if the sex spot is a really good conversationalist,
So no, I feel like the.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
Kind of person who would have a sex spot can't
be a very good conversationalist, and so therefore neither can
the sex spot.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
And that's my take on it.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
Deborah, I have loved this conversation, and I guess I've
been a longtime fan of yours. I just think you're
a fantastic writer and just amazing at the work that
you do. Leave us here with your best tip for
my listeners on how they can improve their lives.
Speaker 2 (23:30):
I would say, I mean to go back to my.
Speaker 3 (23:32):
Point on social media, to live your life how you
want to live it, how you feels right for you,
and don't worry about social comparison, because I think, even
though we know that people's lives are not what we
see on a screen or what we see when we're
scrolling is not an accurate reflection of people's lives, it's
still in some ways I think, gets into like feet
somehow you know, sinks its teeth into us and influences us.
(23:55):
And I see so many people who feel unsatisfied with
either the way they look, plastic checked on plastic surgery
and how cosmetic trends are very quick, in some cases,
very invasive. Plastic surgery trends are affecting both women and men. Now,
So how we look, how we think our partners should look,
how we think we should behave in a relationship, even
(24:16):
something as simple as like how big our house should
be or how many designer goods we should have based
on what we see on social media. And I think
just to recognize that people on social media obviously don't
look the way they look right, and your life is
how you want to live it, and you don't have
to justify that to other people or what you know,
social norms say that you should do.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
Absolutely, comparison is the thief of joy.
Speaker 2 (24:38):
She is doctor Debra.
Speaker 1 (24:39):
So buy her book A Extinction anywhere you buy books
out right now.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
Thank you so much, Deborah, Thank you, Carol,
Hi, and welcome back to the Carol Markowitz Show on iHeartRadio.
My guest today is doctor Debra So, a neuroscientist who
specializes in human sexuality and biological explanations for behavior. As
a journalist, she writes about technology, internet, subcultures, health, and
the politicization of science. Her writing has appeared in Harper's Magazine,
(00:27):
The Wall Street Journal, The Los Angeles Times, The Globe
and Mail, and many other publications. Her first book, The
End of Gender, has been translated into six languages and
was featured in the Daily Wire film What Is a Woman.
Her new book is Sextinction, The Decline of Sex and
the Future of Intimacy. So nice to have you on, Deborah.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Longtime fan of yours, and I've always enjoyed how you
make scientific concepts understandable.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
I feel like two regular non science see people. I
feel like me.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
What's going on that people aren't having sex anymore?
Speaker 3 (01:04):
Well, thanks so much for your kind words, and I've
been a huge fan of yours as well, so I'm.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Very excited to get to speak with you.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
So with sex Stinction, my latest book, I was curious
to see whether this concept of the sex recession is
real because I've been hearing a lot about how people
were not having as much sex as previously, and at
the time I thought this was overblown and that people
were just creating a moral panic out of nothing. There
was a study that came out in twenty sixteen that
showed that Americans were having less sex than ever before,
(01:32):
and this was the case for everyone, all age cohorts
didn't matter if you were married or single. But what
was most interesting was that this was especially pronounced in
younger generations, so millennials, and this was expected to continue
on in Gen Z and so since then, multiple studies
have come out showing the same trend, and more specifically,
the number that I keep seeing is that one in
(01:52):
three men and one in five women have not had
sex in the past year, and again this is especially
prominent among millennials and Gen Z. With sextinction, I each
chapter is looking at a different potential explanation as to
why this is happening. And my interest in sexual inactivity
or sexlessness is partially because I used to study sex scientifically,
(02:12):
but also because I think sex is a reflection of
community connection and emotional intimacy, and so people are not
interested in having sex, then what is taking its place
and what is causing this disinterest?
Speaker 1 (02:25):
Right? So on this show, there's like we do an
advice segment from time to time, and I really thought
all of the advice questions I would get would be
how to meet a guy, what I had to do
in this relationship situation. But the great majority of questions
that I get, I mean I'm talking like over eighty
five percent, I would say, are about friendship and how
to make friends and how to talk to people and
(02:46):
how to you know, I've moved to this new town,
how do I make a friend? But I've lived in
this city my whole life? How do I make friends?
I think that's the first step for people? But do
you see that in terms of your sex research? Is
it used to be we didn't need to have friends
in order to go have sex, right?
Speaker 2 (03:02):
So why is this now the case?
Speaker 1 (03:05):
How come we've moved to the situation where people don't
know how to talk to each other and also don't
know how to meet people to have sex with.
Speaker 3 (03:13):
I think screens and dating apps have played a big
role in this. Social media as well has really warped
the way people perceive themselves and how they perceive the
opposite sex, and how they think they should go about
approaching the opposite sex, or whether they should at all,
especially for men my senses, men are really terrified post
me too, that their life is going to be ruined
if they talk to a woman who is not interested.
And also I think some young women genuinely believe that
(03:35):
if a man approaches you and you don't know him,
that is by definition sexual harassment. So there's this very
polarized dynamic between the sexes. I think also, like you
said with the question about making friends, is we are
increasingly lonely. We do have fewer friends on average than
in previous generations, and part of it is that also
people used to meet their partners through friends and family
(03:56):
or through work, so all of those scenarios I mean,
I guess you can meet people through family, but the
likelihood of meeting someone through someone you know or through
an everyday normal occurrence is much less common nowadays. And
I think also to some extent frowned upon or seen
as not as convenient, because there's this perception that if
you go on a dating app. At least I think
(04:18):
this was the perception when dating apps first, starting in
popular that it's so much easier that you can just
go on swipe. You can go through all of these
potential partners in one sitting. You don't have to go
through the trouble of going out to a party or
you know, making small talk of people you're not interested in.
But I do think that dating apps have done a
really large disservice to dating because they aren't really as efficient.
(04:38):
I mean, what you see if you look at someone's
profile that doesn't really capture who that person is in
any capacity. And then most people, as I mentioned in sextinction,
a lot of people who are on dating apps are
not even really looking for a relationship or even to date,
or even to meet or to even have a conversation.
Some people are just on there swiping for validation to
see who might actually swipe back on them stay. And
then there's the algorithmic aspect too, that you're not fully
(05:00):
control of whom you're being shown to, and of the
people you do swipe on, do they even see that
you're interested in them? So all of these factors I mean,
in terms of like an evolutionary perspective, dating apps are
completely unlike anything we would have ever experienced in our
ancestral history, there's no time during which we would have
been able to sit in one place and go through
potential hundreds of partners in one sitting. So all of
(05:22):
that combined makes people feel really demoralized. It makes them
feel like there's really nobody out there for them if
you're spending a lot of time on even if nowadays
people use social media even as a way to meet
potential partners, and I just think the best way is
going out into real life. But like you said that,
the first step of that is to have social skills
and have the confidence to do that, which is very difficult.
So I think that speaks to potentially why people are
(05:44):
reaching out to you. But I think that's great that people,
you know, acknowledge that this is a step and that
if you don't know to ask for help right absolutely.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
You know. It's interesting because I obviously I would think
that the screens are playing a role in this.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
But my take or my guests would.
Speaker 1 (05:59):
Have been that, sure, the screens stop you from forming relationships,
but how do they How are people having less sex
because of the screens? I mean, there literally have a
world of opportunity to meet people to sleep. But maybe
those aren't going to turn into relationships and maybe they're
not going to get married. But how come the sex
(06:19):
is being affected by it? I would think it would
be the opposite.
Speaker 3 (06:23):
Yeah, well, with the screens are a number of different
It depends, I guess, on the content that you're looking at.
Pornography is one major factor that I talk about in
the book. I think even something like social media. Social
media is essential pornography nowadays as well, depending on the
platform you're on. But also there was one study I
found quite interesting that one in ten men found that
after looking at social media influencers, they were less interested
(06:43):
in having sex with their partner. So these are even
within couples and people who are married, there's less of
an interest in engaging with your sexual partner. And roughly
one in ten women also felt less sexually desirable after
being on social media, so even when you have a
regular partner. I mean that's really interesting too, because contrary
to what you most people might believe, married people actually
(07:03):
do have more sex than single people because obviously you're
sharing the bed with someone at night, so it's not
like if you're single, even if you have a bunch
of regular hookups, say it's a lot more time consuming,
more effort to you know, and then there are no
bad you know, your boundaries are not as well defined
and things like that. So if married people are having
less sex, that speaks to like, really there's.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
Something going on here.
Speaker 3 (07:24):
And then with porn also, I would say because people
are I mean, this is predominantly men, but I think
more women are watching porn, especially the younger generations like
gen Z basically grew up watching pornography from a very
young age because of their early access to smartphones. And
so what happens is if you are regularly getting settled
sexual gratification from the screen, that can become reinforcing. And
I think also for men, I've heard from many men
(07:45):
who have said this to me that watching pornography is
actually diminish their interest in actually going out and meeting
real women. And also, I mean, I think when you
have the gratification that comes with I don't know how
graphic can be on your podcast, but I'll just say
that gust from having an orgasm, you know, it sdates
you to some extent, So not just yease of your
(08:06):
sexual frustration in that moment, were more broadly for men especially.
I think if they're scared to approach women, understandably that okay, well,
they know they don't really have to do that to
get sexual gratification.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
They can just turn to porn, right.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
You know, there was that joke slash truth that people
are more afraid to speak in public.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
Than they are of death.
Speaker 1 (08:26):
And it makes me think that men being afraid to
approach women. You know, I was a child of the
nineties where AIDS was still going on, and I think
that that was kind of still a concern for people,
even though you know, obviously it was more limited to
certain populations, and maybe we didn't know that so much
at the time, but it seems like even then people
(08:46):
were still having risky sex and the consequence was death. Here,
the consequence is like awkward interaction and people can't do
it anymore.
Speaker 2 (08:55):
Do you see that or is that not right? That's
a really interesting perspective.
Speaker 3 (09:01):
I think also COVID did something to us because the
norm very much now is self isolation. Right, And even
if you are saying a couple like, it's crazy to
me when I see couples in public, many times I
will see them both on their phones basically having an
interaction with their phone, and then if they do interact
with each other, it's to point at something on their phone,
which is wild to me because something I get happy
(09:23):
when I see younger couples.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
I'm like, oh, maybe you know, it's not so bad.
Speaker 3 (09:26):
But then I see them on their phones and just
not even speaking to each other. So I think there's something.
There's like a normalization of always being on your phone,
especially in public, so you're not talking to people, whereas back.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
Then smartphones didn't exist, so we were forced to talk
to you.
Speaker 3 (09:39):
If you're standing in line and you're bored, you're naturally
going to turn to the person side Junes make small talk,
and it wasn't seen as weird or as potentially threatening
back then. Also, so I think the social norms and
then also post COVID just people probably have habituated a
little bit to this self isolation.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
Does sextinction offer a prescription for this? Do you have
any solution that we can work towards.
Speaker 3 (10:03):
Yes, So I do have an optimistic outlook on this.
I wrote well in terms of the potential, but the
question is is that actually going to come into fruition.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
We'll see I wrote the book.
Speaker 3 (10:14):
With the hopes that it will help people see what's
coming down the line and say five years from now,
ten years from now, and to avoid the pitfalls that
are associated with that, because I think we learned a
large lesson with say social media and smartphones looking back,
but at the time, I think most of us were
pretty clueless.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
We just thought as oh, this is fantastic.
Speaker 3 (10:32):
I have a personal computer basically in my pocket at
all times. What could go wrong? And so with these
various technologies that I talk about, whether it is you know,
pornography and AI companions, sex robots and sex dolls, I
talk about endocrine disruptors and environmental toxins. I think that's
a big piece of the puzzle in terms of our
physical health, and in some ways we aren't even fully
(10:54):
aware even at this time, with as much awareness as
we do have, you know, some larger forces are incentivized
to keep this information from us. So if we are
not fully physically healthy, and if our hormones are being
messed with, especially for men in their declining testosterone, we
have no real hope of fully fixing this problem because
our sex drive and our sexual interest is not going
(11:15):
to be restored to.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
What it would be otherwise.
Speaker 3 (11:18):
And I also talk about things like reproductive technology, the
birth control pill, like freezing in mutual fertilization. And my
goal is just to give people unbiased information so that
they can make better decisions in their own lives. So
I do think it's possible to turn things around, but
I question whether that will happen because we all know
(11:38):
how bad being on the screens is, but.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
We do it anyway exactly.
Speaker 1 (11:44):
But what are the kind of changes that we're going
to experience when we do have more robots around? Or
AI is something that people talk to like the way
that they do to a friend.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
You say you're optimistic. I'm kind of you know, I'm.
Speaker 1 (11:58):
Generally an optimist, but I'm sort of pessimistic about this,
just because people are taking this safer route of not
having their feelings hurt by talking to somebody in real life.
AI will never hurt your feelings. AI will never be
awkward or weird with you.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
And I see people leaning into that and treating AI
like it's a person, like it's a friend. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (12:20):
That chapter I wrote on AI Companions was crazy to
me because it was so realistic. I wasn't expecting it
to be as realistic as it is, and that technology
is only advancing so rapidly. So like you said, people
are falling in love with their AI chatbots. They are
using AI chatbots as a replacement for dating in real
life partners and friends, because like you said, the chatbot
(12:41):
will never tell you what you don't want to hear. You.
Speaker 2 (12:43):
If it says something you.
Speaker 3 (12:44):
Don't like, you can just click on a button and
tell it what you want it to stay next time.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
So over time it learns.
Speaker 3 (12:50):
What you prefer, and it's not going to challenge you.
It's not going to nag you, it's not going to
give you problems. It's always going to be totally fixated
on you and your needs. And so if you combine
that with the same the sexual aspect, which some people do,
then again it's like pornography, but it's much more interactive.
It's an emotional connection as well, and so people sexual
and emotional needs are being met. So I do think
(13:12):
more people are going to be turning towards this technology,
and I would say even more so in women because
when you look at something like that sex dolls and
sex robots that's primarily been targeted and I think consumed
by men because access to sex is much more difficult
for men than for women on average. But for women
because women place more of an emphasis on their emotional
needs being met, especially in the context of a relationship,
(13:34):
or we'll say women are less likely to have those
emotional needs met in the context of a relationship.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
Then the AI.
Speaker 3 (13:40):
Comes in as a really nice replacement in some ways.
I mean, I think it could initially start as something
that you use in tandem to your relationship, but over
time someone could easily say, actually, I prefer my AI
to my real life partner.
Speaker 2 (13:51):
Because my AI, Yeah, it's easy, it.
Speaker 3 (13:53):
Doesn't create any problems for me, doesn't give me any
additional stress. There's no uncertainty there. That's the other thing,
because other people are very much you know, they have
their own minds and their own autonomy. So that's one way.
And then I think for men also, we see a
large segment of young men being shut out from the
mating market because men are on average falling behind their
female peers in terms of education and occupation socioeconomic status,
(14:17):
and women tend to want to date or marry men
who are at the same level of status to themselves
or people who are men who are more successful. So
what happens is for these young men who cannot get
access to any partners or have women who are not
interested in them, they're going to go further down this
rabbit hole of not just the AI girlfriends, but also
when this technology can be implanted into a realistic sex robot.
(14:38):
I mean, I did a big investigation into sex robots,
and they are the technologies is slowly moving in that direction.
I mean, there are aready people who approaching this purchasing this technology,
so I see it continue like bo both sexes are
going to continue going in opposite directions. And ultimately, I
mean some people might say, well, what about for the
purposes of procreation, you will need another person for that.
(15:00):
But at some point, at this point, yes, but at
some point, if it continues the way it's going, I
could see it being that men men who have the
means can simply use either a surrogate or use a
synthetic body like a robot, which they are developing this
technology where they can implant, you know, and give birth
that way, so they're not even reliant on really needing
(15:22):
a woman to terrifying. And then we also see a
single motherhood by choice, which is another thing I talk
about with women who reach a point where they say,
I can't find a man, a suitable man who might
like to have children with, so they go their own way.
And yeah, it's really unfortunate because I think at the core,
we all want to fall in love, we all want
to bond with someone and find someone for life, and
(15:44):
we're moving in very swiftly in the opposite direction inaction.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
Right, We're going to take a quick break and be
right back on the Carol Marcowitch Show. How did you
get into being a neuroscientist who specializes in human sextual
What was the path?
Speaker 3 (16:01):
fMRI research was really interesting to me. So the idea
that you could look at the brain and see what
parts of the brain were activated during a brain scan,
I just thought that was the wildless technology. So fMRI
technology has been around since about the nineties. MRI technology
has been around longer than that. So MRI is looking
at the structure of the body or the brain, and
then fMRI specifically looks at brain activation. So that's what
(16:24):
initially piqued my interest. And then in terms of sexuality research,
I did a placement in graduate school, and I didn't
know such a thing even existed back then. I didn't
know that you could study sex. But I liked it
because I found the subject so taboo. And whenever I
told someone my placement is, you know, I'm looking at
the brains of I'm looking at sexual arousal in the brain,
people would either say, Wow, that's really interesting or they
(16:46):
would be really weirded out and disgustingly comfortable. Yeah, And
I liked that because I thought, there's a part of
me too that feels like it's a bit uncomfortable to
talk about, and I want to push myself to do
this because there's no reason why it should be so
that way.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
So that's why I ended up.
Speaker 3 (16:59):
You know, I finished my PhD and neuroscience, and then
my switch into journalism was totally unpredictable as well, just
because academia had become way too woke, and I thought,
this is really doing a disservice to the public because
biology is seen as verbotens, so you can only really
discuss things in the context of socially constructed ideas or say,
(17:21):
like at the time when I was graduating, I know,
like everything was blamed on the part patriarchy.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
You know, there's there's no still the case. So it
was very much.
Speaker 3 (17:30):
Just feeling like, Okay, I'm frustrated, I feel very limited,
and I know that if I stay in academia, I
have to stay quiet about certain things. And then the
issue of gender transitioning and children was also like very
popular at that time. I mean it still is. It's
thankfully that idea is slowly dying out. I really appreciate
the coverage you've been doing on this and just just
the insanity in general about transgender ideology and all this nonsense.
(17:52):
So you know, I wrote this off ed criticizing gender
transitioning of kids, and I knew that after that point
I would be able to stay in academia, which.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
Was fine for me. So I feel very blessed to
get to speak with you now and put the second book.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
You don't get to come back now that everybody's changing
their minds.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
They're not like, sorry, doctor, so come back.
Speaker 3 (18:09):
No.
Speaker 2 (18:09):
Once you're a trader, you're a trader for life. But
I honestly don't.
Speaker 3 (18:12):
I don't know that I would even because it just
feels so much for free. Now I don't have to
worry about like saying the wrong thing and then having
people you know want to avoid you, or it's just yeah,
I can say whatever you want, which is the best feeling.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
I love that. Yeah, what are you most proud of
in your life?
Speaker 3 (18:34):
Probably my resilience, I think, because, like I said, like
making that switch in my career was really unpredictable.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
I didn't know what to expect.
Speaker 3 (18:43):
But I also I think on one key theme in
Sextinction is especially saying to young people and to young
men who feel really demoralized, is that you have to
keep going. And I think it's very easy to look
at someone like myself or any of us, to look
at you, Carolyn, to say, well, easy for you to
say that, like, how would you know? That we've all
gone through things in life, We've all struggled, right, And
I think the thing that separates people who move forward
(19:05):
and the people who stay in one place is just
that mindset of I'm going to do what I need
to do to grow and to get better and to
overcome these obstacles instead of being consumed by them. But
I really do want to emphasize I feel a lot
of compassion for these young men hear. I hear from
very many of them on social media. They're very upset
with me because they say, well, easy for you to say.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
That you're a woman, you're a minority.
Speaker 3 (19:28):
But I think a big piece of it is mental health.
You know, like five percent of the globe right now
is depressed, and so I think also with the sexlessness problem,
but also with motivation and self esteem more broadly, And
just why people are also so obsessed with screens is
because it does help you avoid interacting with other people.
If you're depressed and anxious, you don't really want to
(19:49):
be in the presence of other people who could potentially
judge you, who could potentially reject you or make you
feel badly about yourself. Not to say that people generally do,
but especially if you're struggling with your mental health, people
tend to be a little bit more i'd say, hyper
vigilant about that. So I would say for people who
are struggling, definitely like prioritize that you know, it's okay,
there's no shame if you're struggling, but just to recognize that,
(20:09):
help us out there and you can get better, and
just to take tiny steps moving forward.
Speaker 1 (20:14):
Absolutely give us a five year out prediction and it
could be about anything, but I'd love to hear a
sextinction prediction.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
If you have one, I.
Speaker 3 (20:24):
Would say, like we were saying, I do think AI
companion within five years, I see AA companions becoming mainstream.
I see people bringing them to parties, to weddings or really,
oh I too, really, Oh no, no, you got to
shame them back into their like hubble.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
Ready, Carol, you're going to be like you're gonna be
at events. I'm going to be judging, very openly judging.
Do you want to meet my girlfriend or my boyfriend? No,
I don't.
Speaker 3 (20:50):
And because they're completely customizable, so for your audience in
case they haven't tried this technology, like, you can pick
what they look like, you choose their names.
Speaker 2 (20:56):
I made a bunch of them.
Speaker 3 (20:57):
I made tons of them for this book to trust
to try them, and you really can customize them, Tony,
any permutation of what you're looking for in terms of
physical attributes, personality, voice, pet names for you. So i'd
see that becoming mainstream. I do think, say, like sex robots,
once the price point goes down enough that people can
it's more affordable. Right now, the average sex spot is
(21:18):
probably about ten k starting at ten k and the
technology is still not the greatest, but once it starts,
you know, becoming more affordable, I think that's also going
to become much more mainstream. And I didn't think this
would ever happen, but I do think it will become
more socially acceptable because the more people consume something, and
if they don't have other options, and again I feel
a lot of empathy for these men and can't get
(21:39):
other options, then people will say, Okay, well whom I
who am I to look down on this? Right? It's
all if it's all a guy can get. But I
would argue, you know, I think a better use of
that money would be invested in again, therapy anything, and
also women, women, real women to date and if you
you feel that there's no one out there for you,
or that you've had purely negative experiences with men or women,
(21:59):
to look deeper into why that is, as opposed to
turning to these circuits that aren't going to help. They're
not going to help the loneliness. I think the loneliness,
the so called loneliness epidemic, is gonna get worse. And
I worry about the younger generation, worry about Jen Alpha,
who are roughly age thirteen and younger. Because they spend
a lot of time on screens too, they are being
supposed to porn at increasingly younger ages two and this
(22:21):
technology if once they hit even before they hit puberty,
if this technology is ready normalized, it's going to be
really an uphill battle to try and keep them away
from it.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
Look, I feel very sorry for the people who are
lonely and can't find somebody, or feel that they're unworthy
or any of that. But I pledge to you right here,
I'm never going to just be accepting somebody bringing a
sex doll to a party and say like, oh, you.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
Really just couldn't meet anybody. I guess this is what
we have to put up with.
Speaker 1 (22:49):
I don't know it's going to have to be after
I die, because I don't think I'm in five years
from now. I'm just going to be nodding along with
the story of the sex spot.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
What if the sex spot is a really good conversationalist,
So no, I feel like the.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
Kind of person who would have a sex spot can't
be a very good conversationalist, and so therefore neither can
the sex spot.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
And that's my take on it.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
Deborah, I have loved this conversation, and I guess I've
been a longtime fan of yours. I just think you're
a fantastic writer and just amazing at the work that
you do. Leave us here with your best tip for
my listeners on how they can improve their lives.
Speaker 2 (23:30):
I would say, I mean to go back to my.
Speaker 3 (23:32):
Point on social media, to live your life how you
want to live it, how you feels right for you,
and don't worry about social comparison, because I think, even
though we know that people's lives are not what we
see on a screen or what we see when we're
scrolling is not an accurate reflection of people's lives, it's
still in some ways I think, gets into like feet
somehow you know, sinks its teeth into us and influences us.
(23:55):
And I see so many people who feel unsatisfied with
either the way they look, plastic checked on plastic surgery
and how cosmetic trends are very quick, in some cases,
very invasive. Plastic surgery trends are affecting both women and men. Now,
So how we look, how we think our partners should look,
how we think we should behave in a relationship, even
(24:16):
something as simple as like how big our house should
be or how many designer goods we should have based
on what we see on social media. And I think
just to recognize that people on social media obviously don't
look the way they look right, and your life is
how you want to live it, and you don't have
to justify that to other people or what you know,
social norms say that you should do.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
Absolutely, comparison is the thief of joy.
Speaker 2 (24:38):
She is doctor Debra.
Speaker 1 (24:39):
So buy her book A Extinction anywhere you buy books
out right now.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
Thank you so much, Deborah, Thank you, Carol,
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