On this episode of The Tudor Dixon Podcast, Tudor is joined by Kathie Lee Gifford and Dr. Bryan Litfin to discuss their new book, Nero and Paul: How the Gospel of Grace Defeated the Ruler of Rome. Together, they explore the powerful contrast between Nero’s obsession with power and self and Paul’s transformation through faith, grace, and redemption.
As Easter approaches, this conversation dives into the timeless relevance of biblical truth, spiritual warfare, false teaching, hope in dark times, and the enduring message of Jesus. Kathie Lee and Bryan also share how history, Scripture, and storytelling come together in their writing to make the ancient world feel vivid, personal, and deeply meaningful for today’s readers.
Follow Clay & Buck on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/clayandbuck
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Listen
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the Tutor Dixon Podcast. We have a treat
for you today. I feel like we are getting towards spring,
and in Michigan, when we get towards spring, we have
like three or four or five springs before spring actually comes.
But there is also the hope that Jesus is coming
and that we will see him again, and that hope
of Easter and that feeling of just life coming back.
(00:25):
And that is something that I get to share with
you today through the eyes of two beautiful authors, someone
that you probably know from TV, but also a beautiful author,
Kathy Lee Gifford and doctor Brian Litfin. They are joining
me today because they have a new book out and
it is a fabulous way to read about these stories.
(00:48):
And it's a story of Nero and Paul and at
the end how they kind of intersect. It's called Nero
and Paul, How the Gospel of Grace defeated the Ruler
of Rome. Thank you too for joining me today.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
To meet you. Finally. We have so many musical friends
and so glad to reconnect with that guy. We spent
a lot of time writing.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
These books to get good to see you, which if
you read the book, you can tell that you do
spend a lot of time because it's almost like a
book and then a podcast, a written podcast in the book,
because we get to see how you two interact, and
it's funny. I found myself laughing out loud, especially when
you talked about Paul having the unibrow and you.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
And Kathy Lee. He's like, I like to think of
myself as better looking. Oh, yes, well, what I say,
what about that is that he was no oil painting.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
Yes, but but I mean, you really take us inside
of these two stories, and right at this moment, I
feel like it's a it's a very interesting moment on
the world stage to hear about these two stories because
as we're watching what's happening in the Middle East and
we're watching the dictator in Iran, and you hear about
(01:59):
near and kind of his life taking this crazy turn
killing his mother. I mean, you start at a point
where it is you see him whether deciding whether or
not to take the the when you see Nero in
the in the book, at first, you see him deciding
whether to take the sheet off of his mother's dead body.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
It's pretty provoking. Well, especially if you realize as you
go further into our story that it's not as if
he hasn't seen her naked. He was also having an
affair at one point with his mother, right, Brian.
Speaker 3 (02:29):
Yeah, yeah, I mean that's in the sources for sure.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
He didn't. He didn't miss much, if you know what
I'm saying, because it's so funny because they were the
trajectories were very very similar. I mean, Nero, Guy Grippina.
You can say you're the You're the one knows all
the details about this. But his mother was the one
that orchestrated the fact that he would be uh Caesar
(02:53):
and all of her backstage shenanigans are unbelievable, aren't they? Brian?
And but but but he wanted to build a Roman empire,
an earthly of ego and excess and beast the old stuff,
just nastiness. But Saul before he was Paul wanted his
(03:14):
kind of fame and fortune too, because he wanted to
be in the Sanhedrin. He had a zeal for God.
He was extremely proud of, but it was it was
not the God that he expected to meet on the
road to domesticus. Is that a good way to say it?
Speaker 3 (03:28):
Like it?
Speaker 2 (03:29):
Yeah, he's a PhD.
Speaker 3 (03:30):
That's good. Yeah, but you know what you're talking about,
Kathy Roberts University.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
Okay, but I think in this this is a moment
in time where I love the way the story is
presented because of exactly what you just said, Because and
it's a reminder to us. I mean, the Bible is alive,
the Bible, and these stories are living for a reason.
We remember them because they impact us today. And as
(03:56):
you kind of unpack the story of all becoming Paul
and then his life being totally dedicated to Jesus and
to getting people to follow Jesus and saving their lives,
you see Nero, on the other hand, that becomes completely
obsessed with self.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
And that's true today.
Speaker 1 (04:18):
We have to constantly push ourselves back toward Jesus because
we live in a world right now where it's very
easy to get consumed with self, the me world.
Speaker 3 (04:28):
I'm glad you're saying that too, Tutor, because it's easy,
especially like you said, in today's world, to think, well,
this is about you know, the book is about you know,
tyrants and political leaders, but we all have a tyrant
within us. Like it's easy to put, you know, Miro
into the category of someone it's like in Iran or something.
But we all have that ability, and so we actually
we all need this story, we all need the gospel.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
There is this time.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
We're in a moment in time where there's a lot
of entitlement, and honestly, I didn't This book resonates with
me more having run for office and understanding what happens
behind the scenes. And I think a lot of my
listeners are also very politically in tune, and they are
watching what's happening just with all of the chess moves
(05:13):
within your own party and the other party.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
You see it constantly.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
And I'll pick on some of the people who are
out there and they're on the world stage and they've
said one thing the whole time they're in the United States,
but then they go on the world stage and they
say something different, because they're almost like chameleons. And you
can see that in what Nero is trying to do.
He's trying to constantly find the next thing that's going
(05:37):
to make him happy and lift him up, and he's
eliminating all of the evidence of the past. But you
can see that it lives within him that to me
was the most powerful thing is the internal struggle Nero
goes through. Even though he is very evil, it's still
consuming him.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
It didn't start out evil. No baby starts out evil.
I don't believe that it comes straight from the creator.
And it's what the world does, and which tentacles get
around you? And who do you listen to? Some friend
of mine today said, you know, what you worship is
who you are, you know, And this man was worshiping
his his ego, and he thought he was a great performer.
(06:20):
I love the stories we tell about him trying to,
you know, make people listen to him sing forever and ever.
I've been accused of that. Theaters to himself. You could
talk about what he did, Brian, I mean he was ego.
I mean the stuff he built is different from the
stuff that Herod built in our first book together.
Speaker 3 (06:39):
Yeah, yeah, well that's right. I mean they're both making
impact on their world, but maybe in different ways, different arenas.
I mean Nero much more in Rome. But the ego.
Both Herod and Nero both are marked by ego. But again,
aren't we all. You know, it's easy to put that
off onto sort of other people, but we all need
this message of redemption and hope and how to overcome
(07:02):
self and overcome evil with the message of Yashua.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
Well, and you're constantly kind of in between the two
because Saul was that also. I mean, Saul was brutal
and and kind of enjoyed the brutality that he inflicted.
Speaker 2 (07:21):
Yeah, but he did it.
Speaker 3 (07:23):
You know, I think he thought he did think he
had zeal for God, so he thought he was doing
God's will. But you know what does too, right, He's
just doing a different God's will, you know, And so
that reminds us that there's always as you were talking
about politics before, Tutor, but there's always this, there's always
evil spirits. And I don't know what everybody's different beliefs are.
I know what mine are, what Kathy's are, but but
(07:43):
there's always evil spirits that are lurking around the world
of power. They're drawn to power. In fact, the Bible
calls them the powers, and so you know that's something
to keep aware of and remember who is the victor,
who is the ultimate power?
Speaker 2 (07:57):
Yeah, you said, we don't fight against flesh and blood,
but powers and principalities unseen. And because we can't see
it physically, you know, we tend to think that, well,
that's sort of made up stuff. No, I've seen demons.
I've heard demons. I've encountered them, and more times than
I like to. It's not a pleasant experience, but it
certainly made me realize, No, this is real. And a
(08:20):
friend of mine told me the other day, find theologian.
He said, you know, we're supposed to pray in the
name of Jesus and the demons have to flee. Well,
he said, yes, and you know what, they really hate
to hear caath and I go what. He goes, flee
in the name of Jesus, who came in the flesh,
And they go berserk over that because they know it's
(08:40):
true and they can't they have to flee, they can't
stand before it. So we were aware of all of that.
We had things that came along as we were trying
to make these books that made things far more difficult.
We just we just are praying people though we know,
we know what this is. This is spiritual warfare. Let's
get at it, you know. And then we didn't happen
to It happens to everyone. It's just we're aware of
(09:03):
it because we are people who study the Word of
God in its original form, and that's the Hebrew and
I hate to call it the Old Testament and the
Greek and the New It's one story. We should have
never broken it up. There's four hundred years between the
end of the New Old One and beginning of Matthew.
(09:24):
But there was four hundred years of the Jewish people
were you know, it's enslaved in Egypt. We didn't stop
telling the story. Sure, you know, I don't know why.
That's for another time. But we like to think of
it as one unbelievable history lesson and I was told
years ago, and I left in one of my rabbinical
trips when you go to Rock Road and Rabbi Rock
(09:46):
as Jesus rose the Holy Land, and the rabbi is
rabbinical teaching. They were telling me that, you know, when
Abraham and Sarah were called of God to leave their home,
which was modern day it would be modern day Iraq.
Everybody that's that kills me. Now to do who? We
don't know that It doesn't say so, it says from
the land of Er right Brian. Yes, And but the
(10:10):
interesting is that they changed their names later. God changed
their names. Why because he added the letter H and
that means the breath of God. He breathed his breath
into them, and they became new creatures, Abraham and Sarah
as we tend to know them. That when you study
the way, Ryan's true, true genius at all of it.
(10:32):
I'm just a student, but I soak this stuff up
because it makes the Bible, which is really literally written
in black and white. To me, the stories are too epic.
I mean, you're never going to learn in the Bible
about Nero. The way you're going to learn about Nero
from our book is that's there's no time and there's
no you know, no space for me. When my space
(10:52):
started getting very very lukewarm, I started studying in Israel
with with what basically messianic who know every ten layers
down deep into into the Word of God and the
black and white Bible that I had been studying for years.
In fact, I read the Bible from cover to cover
(11:13):
eleven times in eleven years and got so bored out
of my gourd, and I said, there's stuff in here
it's not true. I don't I can't read it anymore.
It's not a lot of it is not true. And
I realized it was because it was. It was a
bad translation. It was a bad translation of what the
word really really said. And once I started learning that,
And that doesn't mean I can speak Greek or speak Hebrew,
(11:35):
I can't, but I we studied the original words. And
then that black and white goes to technicolor and it
goes to Dolby sound and it's it's you're ready to
just dig into it because it's so.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
Rich that that is what I found to be the
best part of this. And I know at the beginning
of the book you say, you know, some of this
is what we imagine the conversations must be like that
we have to kind of kind of infer what they
must have said. But it does take you in to
a life on that is not unlike what we battle
(12:10):
every day.
Speaker 2 (12:11):
And I think.
Speaker 1 (12:12):
That what you said about Paul Saul becoming Paul was
so important that you said, you know, he was just
doing what he thought a different God wanted him to
do it.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
He just didn't know it. You know, he was serving Jehovah, God,
he thought. But so you're right, and yet he was wrong,
you know.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
And that's what I think we I think that has
to kind kind of be I mean you can correct
me if you think I'm wrong. But I think that
has to kind of be a constant struggle for us,
because oftentimes I hear people say, well, God told me
to do this, and it was clear as day, And
I think that leaves some of us who don't hear
God that way going, well, God doesn't talk to me,
I must not know what he wants. And this book
(12:56):
made me realize you're constantly fighting to make sure you're
following what he does want, and you have to be
aware that there is always going to be spirits, bad
spirits that are going to try to get to you
and convince you that you are more important.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
I mean, it takes me right back to Eve. It's like,
why shouldn't you know this stuff?
Speaker 1 (13:19):
And right now there's so many things in the world
that everybody's going you deserve to know this, And I
keep saying, why I don't know that I am supposed
to know that.
Speaker 3 (13:27):
Yeah, that's a fundamental point you're making, actually, because the
nature of sin, if you think about the temptation of
Adam and Eve, the temptation is not well, you know, pleasure, luxury, sexuality, pride.
I mean, all of those things are related but ultimately
the temptation is knowledge and the forbidden fruit, right, you know,
the apple with a bite taken out of it, which
is the symbol of a major corporation today. And so
(13:50):
you know, that's the ultimate human temptation, and it's what
Satan was tempted by, because he said, I will be
like the most high, I will know the things that
I don't I'm not supposed to know. And so a
cour level, the temptation of mankind is to seek after
that kind of arcane or occult knowledge, and it gives power,
and it gives wealth, and it gives riches. So all
of those things are related. So our story is very
(14:10):
much about knowing the truth. You know, Paul did not
know the truth as he was saw at that time
until the truth encountered him and Jesus said, I am
the Way, the Truth and the life. And so Paul
had to meet capital T truth, not an abstraction, but
a person who then changed his orientation. That's everybody's story.
It's time to meet the truth. If you haven't understood
(14:31):
the truth, the capital T truth, who is a person
you don't yet understand the world.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
And you can't be set free.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
Yeah, let's take a quick commercial break. We'll continue next
on the Tutor Dixon Podcast. What you're saying is kind
of blowing my mind because I think about how many people,
especially children, My kids are at Christian schools, and you
see the battle between the Christian message and the message
that's coming through their phones that you talked about, and
(14:59):
you to hear people talk about going down this dark
rabbit hole of information that is it is such a
terrible temptation and the information is not necessarily right, and
too often these exactly these kids are getting pulled and
even adults, I mean, we're getting pulled into this too.
And I tell my girls all the time when the
(15:21):
Bible talks about gossip is so much bigger than you
just gossiping at school. But think about how you gossiping
at school affects the interpersonal relationships of all the girls
that you know, and imagine that on a worldwide scale
through your phone.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
Our words are so powerful. Scripture is very clear about
you know, you have the choice choose life or death
with your with your words, then it says choose life,
you know, And every time I haven't, I've regretted it.
You know, it's easy just to say, oh, just see that.
You know, it's constant, and it's not like you're constantly
(15:56):
monitoring yourself and you think of O, God's not pleased
with me. Now, it's just a tender reminder most of
the time, Kath you know better than that. That's not
what I that saysn't honor me, that's no spirit inside
of you do that's the Holy Spirit. He doesn't condemn.
Jesus did not come to condemn through the law, but
to fulfill it. And you know, and that's another reason
(16:16):
why I wish we'd never The problem with so much
of our world is that we think the Old Testament
was about the Jews and the New Testament is for
the Christians. It's all of us. Some of us are
born into it because of my Jewish heritage, others are grafted.
People assume that Jews they what's the word I'm looking for, Brian,
they convert to Christian No, No, Jews don't convert. They've
(16:41):
just received the Messiah they had not understood for all
those years. Gentiles convert. I appreciate what Kathy is saying
too about the unity of the story between the two Testaments,
and it's so true and you know, tudor as you
think about like our book, and it's landing into the
world in the time when the word Israel or the
Jews or something like that is connected with airplanes and
(17:04):
battles and wars. That's not what our book is about,
other than you know, of course he wrote waged wars.
But our book is about It is about Israel, but
it's about a spiritual concept. It's about the message of Israel,
and as Kathy is saying at the beginning of that
message in the unfolding of the story chapter by chapter,
culminating with Israel's messiah, Yeshua. And then what our book
(17:24):
is about is how this guy saw who was a rabbi.
It's a Jewish name, and he takes a Greek name
so he can relate to the rest of the world,
or a Roman name, but he takes the message of
Israel to the world. And we begin the book talking
about the Temple in Jerusalem and how the veil of
that temple was torn, which usually people think, well that means,
you know, you can get into the Holy of Holies.
It's the opposite. It's that the Holy of Holies is
(17:46):
rushing out to come in be inside of you.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
Oh wow.
Speaker 3 (17:49):
So there's a kind of a bursting forth of the
holy presence of God, the ruach Ha, Kodesh and Hebrew,
and so that the temple can now be anywhere. And
Paul says, I'm going to take that message on now
that I know the truth. I'm going to go to
the end of the world, and we take him in
the story to the end of what his world was,
which was Spain and so and he fulfilled it. And
(18:11):
that's the timeless message, is that Israel's messages is the
message of Jesus and it is for the world.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
And just the way when Kathy Lee, when you were
talking about this coming out in technicolor and Dolby sound,
just the way you describe that veil. Also, the number
of people that had to weave it, the number I
think they did it every two years, the thickness of it,
how many people had to carry it made it so
(18:41):
different to me, you know, because I think of it
as like.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
A little tour thing that floated in the air. At
wasn't whispy.
Speaker 3 (18:48):
It was substitute, you know, And therefore when it was
torn into you had a major piece of fabric that
was being ripped not by human hands, but by divine
hands to give that holiness to the rest of the world.
Speaker 2 (19:01):
I'm sorry, Brian, I'm just because I got excited that
just the other day. I love all the things they're
just discovering all the time, all the time to confirm
what we know is truth. And did you guys read
that They've now scientifically, absolutely proven that in AD thirty
three there was a massive, massive earthquake right there where
(19:21):
Jesus is crucified, right there. That happened, the skies went dark.
They have all kinds of technical ways now to prove
these things. I'm also working and I'll come back and
talk to you when this thing comes out. Working with
a friend on the story of the shroud, the Shroud
of Turin. Well, there's absolutely scientific proof now it was
(19:43):
not the burial cloth of Jesus. It started out that way.
It's the resurrection cloth of Jesus. Because that image could
never have been many without photography and the kind of
energy that went into producing that image, and the way
God has protected that shroud all these two centuries, oh
to millennia is amazing. So God is just confirming what
(20:06):
those of us who seek have believed, and that's why
I didn't like what I was reading in the Bible.
I knew, even as a ten year old little girl,
that Jesus didn't curse that tree, the sycamore fig tree.
I said, I know, teacher, but that doesn't I know
you said it, but I don't think that means that.
What does a ten year old girl kind of understand
that because I said, my Jesus created that tree, he
(20:28):
wouldn't curse something he created. Later, on a rabbinical trip,
I discovered that the sycamore fig tree represented, just as
the olive tree represents the people of the Jewish people,
the sycamore fig tree represented the religious people, and that
was the Pharisees and the Sadducees. And he was cursing
them for not feeding the people that they were supposed
(20:49):
to take care of, and he called them hypocrites, and
he called them, you know, you have your whitewashed tombs,
but inside your dead man's bones, well the word for
hypocrite Greek. I love this actors.
Speaker 3 (21:05):
To stand under a mask.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
Yeah, that's I mean, yes, yes you are. You're pretending
to be someone you're not.
Speaker 3 (21:12):
Well, Kathy, that's a good point. And you know, speaking
of trees being cursed, the scripture says, curse it is
he who hangs on a tree. So when the one
who was cursed in our place is Jesus. And there's
a tree at the beginning in the Garden of Eden,
there's a tree in the end in the Book of Revelation,
and there's a tree right in the middle, and that
is the one on which our Messiah hung. But he
didn't stay there, as you pointed out, so he took
(21:34):
the curse for us, and we can praise him for that.
Speaker 1 (21:37):
How did you come to the point where you said
you wanted to you have another You wrote a book
before this, this was Harrod and Mary was that okay?
So you have and that leads in to Nero and Paul,
how did you come to this point, because Kathy, you
were saying that life really changed when you went there.
Explain that to me, because I want our listeners to
(22:01):
really understand what it is to walk within those footsteps
of Jesus.
Speaker 2 (22:07):
Well, not everybody, especially now. You don't want to go
to the Holy Land right now. Things have got to
calm down, and they will, and there will be another
time where our rock road and Rabbi tours can start
going again. I gave that name to Rabbi Sobles so
he could start the touring business with it. And if
I suggest you go with somebody that actually knows the
scriptures before, a lot of these pastors think they do.
(22:30):
But if your pastor thinks that Jesus was a carpenter,
you know I have he hasn't read the scriptures we
read in the Greek and the Hebrew. The word for
what Jesus and Joseph did in the New Testament, which
I hate to say, but it is in Greek, and
it's the word is techton. And if you look it up,
and anybody can on their ask siri, you know what's
(22:51):
the original Greek? It says architect slash builder. But there
was no buildable wood in first century a D. Back
then Herod didn't build the temple with wood. He accentuated
it with some wood, but there was no buildable wood.
It all had to come down from the cedars of Lebanon,
you know, along the VMRs, which is you know, the west,
it's the beautiful, beautiful coast as Israel, and made into
(23:15):
rafts and then taken apart in well, what's modern day
tel Aviv, basically right, Bryan, and then taken overland by
animals and slaves, tons and tons of slaves. I mean,
Herod moved a mountain to be higher than another mountain
just so he could be buried on the mountain that
was higher. These are the kind of egos we deal with.
(23:37):
You don't learn that unless you go to Herodium, which
was his temple in his palace in Bethlehem, and you
learn that stuff when you go there. But you can
look at my videos with that I did with the
or you can read our books and we'll take you there.
You don't have to get a plane, you don't need
a passport, you know, just just down. In fact, I
(23:57):
wish a lot of people, and they're doing it more
and more. I did all the and I always do
for all my books, not just the two that I've
written with Brian. But I do the audio versions of
them because I don't want somebody else speaking our words
or my words, you know. And I'm so familiar although
these ones, these two books took me four days each.
There's so yeah, And I want to make sure I'm
(24:21):
saying the names properly and the place is properly and
all of that. So we really tried to be very
scholarly about this in the places that, as you mentioned,
we had to use a little imagination. We footnoted. Basically,
we let them know, you know, we know what. Brian's
the scholar, I am not. But we were really careful
about that because we don't want to be guilty of
(24:42):
telling something that we don't believe is true. And it's
all in the in the in the realm of possibility,
of course. But I know you could probably explain the
way you dealt with it.
Speaker 3 (24:54):
Well, you said it well, you said it well. And
Kathy keeps calling me a scholar. But then you listen
to her talk and she knows what she's isn't she
She does, and she's being humble, but she's learned a
lot over the years. Yeah, I think you are. But anyway,
I mean the point is, like she's exactly right. The
readers of this book, you know you might not ever
(25:14):
get a chance. I hope you do get to go
to Israel or in the case of Paul, Greece, which
is where it culminates. And so if until the day
comes that you can walk in the footsteps of these
great heroes, our books are meant to be very vivid,
very story like, very cinematic, and you know, we have
to imagine some things, but we have texts and sources
behind those things. So in the meantime, to our readers,
(25:38):
we invote you to be swept up, not into a
bunch of dry you know, facts and dates or something
like that, but to be swept up into a double
saga where you have this ridiculous antagonist, Nero, and all
the people swirling around him that were like that as well,
and then you had this protagonist who's flawed and who
always says, you know, I was a chief of sinners,
(25:58):
and yet he's got this redemptive arc. And of course
at the end the two of them crashed together in this,
you know, the end of their story as Paul finally
gets to Rome. So it really it really.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
Reads in a story like way.
Speaker 3 (26:11):
We wanted to come across that way, yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
And almost a Hollywood like way where you're going this
story cannot possibly be. But it also makes you realize
this is how Hollywood came to be, was the stories
of the past were so vivid and so unrealistic, and
yet this happened, and it's it's interesting because as you
read through, there's this desire for Paul to rub off
(26:35):
on your O. You know, there's this human desire to
go get it, finally get it and and redeem yourself.
You know, redemption is something that I think is always
lingering in our hearts and the need for redemption. And
I think that's that spirit that's constantly calling us back
(26:55):
and saying, be wary of the idols, be wary of
the that sinful nature that's.
Speaker 2 (27:01):
Pulling you test them.
Speaker 4 (27:03):
Yeah, and yet you know that there are people who
never are you know, Nero never he never turned he
never was redeemed, he never turned turn good.
Speaker 2 (27:15):
And how do you how.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
Do you prepare yourself to stop those people from being
in your life, to stop that influence, which I think
is very easy to have that influence in your life
right now because people can get to you. Evil forces
can get to you so much easier today than any
other time.
Speaker 2 (27:35):
Yeah, but people ask us all and I'm sure you too, Tutor.
You know, do you think there's more evil in the world.
I'm asked that every day, so is Briant. So it
may seem that way because you know, people have phones
and they collect successible you would never see. And then
there's twenty four hour of course channels where you know,
if you see images you wish you never did and
(27:57):
you can't get rid of them, you know they're there.
And but I I say, no, it seems like it.
But the truth is, Uh, evils in the story in
the scripture starts in Genesis, in the in the garden.
And whether you believe that metaphorically or really or literally, Uh,
it doesn't change the story for me. It's it's you know,
it's it's fascinating cinematically, of course, but it's the point
(28:20):
of what I'm trying to make is that even as
God is walking in the coolness of the evening with
the Adam and Eve, the serpent is in the garden.
So why should we you know? He was always there,
always there, always there. And so but the subtitle of
our book is Living Hope, Ancient evil which has always
(28:41):
been with us, juxtaposed against living Hope. And if you've
read our book, Herod and Mary Uh and I hope
you have. If you haven't, you will also find it fascinating.
It ends with with basically Herod's death, as Mary and
Uh and the baby Jesus are returning back from from
(29:02):
Egypt because the one who sought to kill them is dead.
And we we we at the end of that that book.
I was doing the audio version. It took me an
hour to get through it. I would sob every time
we had I had to read the end of the book.
You have to read it, you know. I don't call
(29:22):
in Gwyneth Paltrow to do it, because I can't you
do it. And but even when you listen to the audio,
you hear me just I can't you know what I'm
talking about, Brian. I don't want to give the book
the end of the book away, but we needed a
way to express why the guy who called himself the
King of the Jews, who wasn't even a Jew, and
(29:43):
Mary who had just given birth to the King of Kings. Yeah,
you know, it's just profoundly moving to me. Even right now,
I'm remembering I had to have my book my hip
replaced the next day. I just stumbled into that next
and I'm done. I'm done.
Speaker 3 (30:00):
I'm glad you brought those things up, because, you know,
as we talk about great evil, and we're talking about
demonic powers and evil spirits and kind of the tyrants
of the world, whether they're in the first century or today.
It's important to recognize that the story is one of hope.
And you say, well, you know, like a Nero. Like Tutor,
you said, he never converted. That's true. We have no evidence.
He commits suicide and he's pitiful. But as Paul came
(30:23):
and made his way to Rome, the seeds of the
gospel fell under the soil. That was good. So Paul
getting there. Yeah, Okay, he didn't convert Nero as far
as we could ever tell, but many others did. In fact,
the scripture says that there are some in the emperor's
household who are believers, which would be Nero's household. So
the gospel goes for it, right.
Speaker 1 (30:43):
Yes, I found that fascinating.
Speaker 3 (30:44):
Yeah, there's a triumph to it all. And sometimes that
triumph is secret or hidden. But God's up to something,
even in the lives of your listeners.
Speaker 1 (30:53):
Let's take a quick commercial break. We'll continue next on
a Tutor Dixon podcast. I think the story of Grace
is so important in this book because that is where
we get caught up and saying we can never be redeemed,
we can never be good enough. Is that we can't.
We don't understand grace. We don't understand his love. And
(31:15):
so often when I'm frustrated with myself, I say, what
would I do if my kids had made a mistake.
They will absolutely hug them and love them, and I
would just it would not matter. I will always love them.
How much more does God love me than that? How
much more grace does He have for me? And that
(31:36):
to me was where Paul was.
Speaker 3 (31:38):
Yeah, right, well, he was aware of his sins, and
so his gospel was it some abstraction as he preached grace,
and he's the apostle of grace. He knew first and
foremost I have received grace, and then he passed on
that message. And praise God for his grace. We all
need it.
Speaker 2 (31:56):
So I want people.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
I want people right now as we go into not
only are we going into the Easter season, but in
the world we're going into a very challenging season when
it comes to politics, and politics is I would say,
to your point of evil has always been there. Politics
is there, but in abundance now. And I see younger
(32:19):
and younger people getting affected by the stresses of politics
and by the false teachings. And now we see false
prophets and false teachers getting into mixing that. I want
to be a political leader, but I'm also going to
bring a false gospel to you. And we're seeing that
out of Texas right now, where we have a candidate
who is saying God is a woman and God is
(32:39):
non binary. And the story of Mary is the story
of why God approves of abortion and all these crazy things.
And that to me is like, this is a time
to get deep into a book like this where you
can really feel those times and see God's grace but
also God's lessons, how true his word is and what
(33:02):
is the word of the false teachers? And how did
you determine which is which? And help your children determine
which is which and follow the path of the Lord.
Speaker 2 (33:13):
Well, that's one of the reasons I keep writing all
of these kinds of books and making my movies to
the way I shot a lot of it in Israel.
And it's just important that we understand where we came
from and how we got here now. And I as
a woman who had a Jewish father who was an
immigrant from Russia, rushied he escaped the programs. My mother's
(33:37):
father was also an immigrant. There's a lot of talk
about that. I don't get involved politically, but I just
I don't even know what I was going to say.
It's you know, Brian, I've probably done one hundred interviews
in the.
Speaker 3 (33:47):
Last pay Well, whatever is going to it's going to
be about Yhua and the goodness of his message for sure.
Speaker 2 (33:55):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. What I was going to say is
that so many of us who are our believers and
we sincerely try to follow you Shore or if you
call him Christ, same same person, same person, but one
is is Hebrew and one is is uh Is from
the Apostolic period after Jesus was resurrected and ascended, and uh,
you know, people were not called Christians when Jesus was
(34:18):
on the earth. They were called followers of the Way.
And then then, of course we know what happened, and
Jesus went away, and then it became the New period,
and then it was called the Apostolic way because it
was it was different. They weren't disciples anymore than in
the same way they were taken. They were to take
it at what's the meaning Greek to take away, to
go forth with, to be an apostle.
Speaker 3 (34:38):
The apostle means sent out. Yeah, yeah, we sent nder
the eyewitnesses.
Speaker 2 (34:43):
Yeah, so I just wish people would understand where we
came from. As from a Jewish perspective, it's important. Jesus
was a rabbi. He kept every one of the of
the festivals and and all the main things that happened
in Jesus's life, tutor happened on during the fest All
that we read about, lots of them, and ninety percent
of what Jesus talks about was from Galilee. But he
(35:05):
went to the festivals. And we say Easter in our culture,
but it was not Easter Sunday that Jesus was resurrected.
It was first fruits. It's called first fruits in the
in the Jewish faith. To tell him what first fruits is.
Speaker 3 (35:21):
Well, first fruits and Jesus is called the first fruits
of the resurrection. But it basically means that the Israelites
would bring in when they got a harvest, they would
offer the beginnings of the harvest because they said, Lord,
we know you're going to bring much more. So when
Jesus is resurrected, he's the first fruits of a harvest
to come. There's going to be so many more resurrections
and life. If he's the life, much more life is
(35:44):
going to be harvested in the wake of that one.
So it has a reference to that.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
I just love learning about that. We know, we know
about Passover, he's crucified on Passover, but think about Easter
because that's really is it a pain in term? It's
just not Hebrew.
Speaker 3 (35:59):
The word is like from Ishtar I think, which was
a goddess or something.
Speaker 2 (36:03):
But see that's where the east is on the east.
Speaker 3 (36:05):
So it's related to that, like the resurrection in the
east the sun. Well, it's just it's the word everybody uses,
and so I guess we have to embrace it on
that level. But as you're pointing out their roots behind it.
Speaker 1 (36:17):
Yeah, I mean, there's there is so much to learn.
And I love that you wrote the book. I like
I said, I love the way the book is written.
For those of you who haven't read it, you read
a chapter, you're taken in. It's like it is like
you're watching a movie. You're taken right to that time,
and then we get this commentary from the two of
you at the end, which, as you can see if
(36:38):
you're listening, you know that it's beautiful.
Speaker 2 (36:40):
It is amazing, and it.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
Is really thoughtful, but it's also very natural. So I
love the way the book is written. I encourage people
to go out and get it. It is Nero and
Paul how the Gospel of Grace defeated the ruler of Rome.
So tell everybody. It's just everywhere, right all the bookstores.
It's available March tenth, so you can pre order it
right now.
Speaker 2 (37:02):
That and the audio, and yeah, I think it'll take
you on a journey. We learned from our first book
here and Mary, that we did the coda at the
very end. The coda is really a musical term to
repeat to go back and discuss. But I think this
way works better because we right, You're right. The chapters
are very specific and then we talk in Our code
(37:24):
is about how we can apply it to today and
what can we learn from this that I can literally
take away from that and apply it to my own life,
because otherwise it's just entertainment, and we want to entertain
with our book. We really do. I've been an entertainer
all my life, and I don't know any other way
to even think except for in rhyme and lyrics and
cinematically that's who I am. He comes more from the
(37:47):
academic world. So it's a good combination of this.
Speaker 1 (37:50):
Yes, that's why it's such a good mix. Honestly, that's
what I was thinking. My daughter is always saying, I
want a better study Bible that kind of explains things
to me. And this is this is like you said,
this takes some stories from the Bible and it just
kind of blows them up and goes in deeper. But
that at the end, that study part of it takes
you to today, which I think is so beautiful.
Speaker 2 (38:11):
I think it was Cody's idea.
Speaker 3 (38:12):
Cody, Yeah, your son, Cody. He's a great dude. Oh yeah,
Cody's got his thumb prints all over this book too.
Speaker 2 (38:17):
He's such a good ud.
Speaker 3 (38:19):
He's a keeper.
Speaker 2 (38:20):
Yeah, that's good. I love that guy. Like his life
so much better than him myself. I love Eric because
she's so much nicer to me than you.
Speaker 3 (38:27):
Walk that's hilarious.
Speaker 2 (38:29):
I married her.
Speaker 1 (38:31):
But even the way you explain, I'll say this, and
I know we've got a little over, but you're so
fascinating to talk to you.
Speaker 2 (38:38):
I will say, even the way and I could see.
Speaker 1 (38:41):
Your connection to Mary, and I understand why you're saying
the last book was hard for you to read because
even the way you described Mary watching Jesus crucified and saying,
my son's thirty five, what would I do as a mom,
and that I would put myself in that place? And
I think the same I was thinking as you were
taking me through that in the book. I was thinking, Yes, yes,
(39:04):
as a mom, you would do anything. And and we
have to remember that what we know she didn't know.
She didn't have that foresight of what was next.
Speaker 2 (39:13):
You know, she didn't know that art. She knew she
had enough people telling her this will be right.
Speaker 1 (39:19):
But that human side of her is he's still getting
pulled away that he's not with her every day.
Speaker 2 (39:26):
And yet she's at the cross, but she's also at the.
Speaker 3 (39:28):
Tomb and room when the when the Holy Spirit descends,
she's there too.
Speaker 2 (39:34):
Yes, room at that And that is Pentecost, that was
that's always been a ya. That's a it's a Greek word,
but it's it's something that the Jews celebrate. That's fifty
days after Passover, right right, And.
Speaker 3 (39:45):
This is the kind of thing that we wanted those
those codas to do. Where which is like like you're
doing tu to recinc I have to think about this
from my own life, and if it's just a book
about go to the first century or people from long ago,
doesn't have that. But so many people love Kathy's voice.
They heard it in their ears for you know, every
day for so many years. All those listeners are now
a new generation that's getting to know her, and so
(40:06):
we wanted we wanted to talk about the book. So
you get a little window at the end of each
chapter into what we're thinking and how it might apply,
and jokes and insights, and we share back and forth
and so like you said, it's like a little miniature
podcast at the end of each chapter.
Speaker 1 (40:22):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, I loved it. I encourage everybody to
go out and get it again. It's Nero and Paul
how the Gospel of Grace defeated the Ruler of Rome,
and it is Kathy Lee Gifford and doctor Brian Litvin.
Thank you so much for sharing today. It was amazing
talking to you both.
Speaker 2 (40:38):
Thanks for having God blessing loom shalom everybody.
Speaker 1 (40:42):
God bless you, yes, and thank you all for listening
to the podcast.
Speaker 2 (40:46):
God bless you. Get the book.
Speaker 1 (40:47):
Go out and make sure you tune into the next podcast.
We love having you all listening, and thank you so
much for joining me today.
Speaker 2 (40:53):
We loved having you here.
Welcome to the Tutor Dixon Podcast. We have a treat
for you today. I feel like we are getting towards spring,
and in Michigan, when we get towards spring, we have
like three or four or five springs before spring actually comes.
But there is also the hope that Jesus is coming
and that we will see him again, and that hope
of Easter and that feeling of just life coming back.
(00:25):
And that is something that I get to share with
you today through the eyes of two beautiful authors, someone
that you probably know from TV, but also a beautiful author,
Kathy Lee Gifford and doctor Brian Litfin. They are joining
me today because they have a new book out and
it is a fabulous way to read about these stories.
(00:48):
And it's a story of Nero and Paul and at
the end how they kind of intersect. It's called Nero
and Paul, How the Gospel of Grace defeated the Ruler
of Rome. Thank you too for joining me today.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
To meet you. Finally. We have so many musical friends
and so glad to reconnect with that guy. We spent
a lot of time writing.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
These books to get good to see you, which if
you read the book, you can tell that you do
spend a lot of time because it's almost like a
book and then a podcast, a written podcast in the book,
because we get to see how you two interact, and
it's funny. I found myself laughing out loud, especially when
you talked about Paul having the unibrow and you.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
And Kathy Lee. He's like, I like to think of
myself as better looking. Oh, yes, well, what I say,
what about that is that he was no oil painting.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
Yes, but but I mean, you really take us inside
of these two stories, and right at this moment, I
feel like it's a it's a very interesting moment on
the world stage to hear about these two stories because
as we're watching what's happening in the Middle East and
we're watching the dictator in Iran, and you hear about
(01:59):
near and kind of his life taking this crazy turn
killing his mother. I mean, you start at a point
where it is you see him whether deciding whether or
not to take the the when you see Nero in
the in the book, at first, you see him deciding
whether to take the sheet off of his mother's dead body.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
It's pretty provoking. Well, especially if you realize as you
go further into our story that it's not as if
he hasn't seen her naked. He was also having an
affair at one point with his mother, right, Brian.
Speaker 3 (02:29):
Yeah, yeah, I mean that's in the sources for sure.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
He didn't. He didn't miss much, if you know what
I'm saying, because it's so funny because they were the
trajectories were very very similar. I mean, Nero, Guy Grippina.
You can say you're the You're the one knows all
the details about this. But his mother was the one
that orchestrated the fact that he would be uh Caesar
(02:53):
and all of her backstage shenanigans are unbelievable, aren't they? Brian?
And but but but he wanted to build a Roman empire,
an earthly of ego and excess and beast the old stuff,
just nastiness. But Saul before he was Paul wanted his
(03:14):
kind of fame and fortune too, because he wanted to
be in the Sanhedrin. He had a zeal for God.
He was extremely proud of, but it was it was
not the God that he expected to meet on the
road to domesticus. Is that a good way to say it?
Speaker 3 (03:28):
Like it?
Speaker 2 (03:29):
Yeah, he's a PhD.
Speaker 3 (03:30):
That's good. Yeah, but you know what you're talking about,
Kathy Roberts University.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
Okay, but I think in this this is a moment
in time where I love the way the story is
presented because of exactly what you just said, Because and
it's a reminder to us. I mean, the Bible is alive,
the Bible, and these stories are living for a reason.
We remember them because they impact us today. And as
(03:56):
you kind of unpack the story of all becoming Paul
and then his life being totally dedicated to Jesus and
to getting people to follow Jesus and saving their lives,
you see Nero, on the other hand, that becomes completely
obsessed with self.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
And that's true today.
Speaker 1 (04:18):
We have to constantly push ourselves back toward Jesus because
we live in a world right now where it's very
easy to get consumed with self, the me world.
Speaker 3 (04:28):
I'm glad you're saying that too, Tutor, because it's easy,
especially like you said, in today's world, to think, well,
this is about you know, the book is about you know,
tyrants and political leaders, but we all have a tyrant
within us. Like it's easy to put, you know, Miro
into the category of someone it's like in Iran or something.
But we all have that ability, and so we actually
we all need this story, we all need the gospel.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
There is this time.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
We're in a moment in time where there's a lot
of entitlement, and honestly, I didn't This book resonates with
me more having run for office and understanding what happens
behind the scenes. And I think a lot of my
listeners are also very politically in tune, and they are
watching what's happening just with all of the chess moves
(05:13):
within your own party and the other party.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
You see it constantly.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
And I'll pick on some of the people who are
out there and they're on the world stage and they've
said one thing the whole time they're in the United States,
but then they go on the world stage and they
say something different, because they're almost like chameleons. And you
can see that in what Nero is trying to do.
He's trying to constantly find the next thing that's going
(05:37):
to make him happy and lift him up, and he's
eliminating all of the evidence of the past. But you
can see that it lives within him that to me
was the most powerful thing is the internal struggle Nero
goes through. Even though he is very evil, it's still
consuming him.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
It didn't start out evil. No baby starts out evil.
I don't believe that it comes straight from the creator.
And it's what the world does, and which tentacles get
around you? And who do you listen to? Some friend
of mine today said, you know, what you worship is
who you are, you know, And this man was worshiping
his his ego, and he thought he was a great performer.
(06:20):
I love the stories we tell about him trying to,
you know, make people listen to him sing forever and ever.
I've been accused of that. Theaters to himself. You could
talk about what he did, Brian, I mean he was ego.
I mean the stuff he built is different from the
stuff that Herod built in our first book together.
Speaker 3 (06:39):
Yeah, yeah, well that's right. I mean they're both making
impact on their world, but maybe in different ways, different arenas.
I mean Nero much more in Rome. But the ego.
Both Herod and Nero both are marked by ego. But again,
aren't we all. You know, it's easy to put that
off onto sort of other people, but we all need
this message of redemption and hope and how to overcome
(07:02):
self and overcome evil with the message of Yashua.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
Well, and you're constantly kind of in between the two
because Saul was that also. I mean, Saul was brutal
and and kind of enjoyed the brutality that he inflicted.
Speaker 2 (07:21):
Yeah, but he did it.
Speaker 3 (07:23):
You know, I think he thought he did think he
had zeal for God, so he thought he was doing
God's will. But you know what does too, right, He's
just doing a different God's will, you know, And so
that reminds us that there's always as you were talking
about politics before, Tutor, but there's always this, there's always
evil spirits. And I don't know what everybody's different beliefs are.
I know what mine are, what Kathy's are, but but
(07:43):
there's always evil spirits that are lurking around the world
of power. They're drawn to power. In fact, the Bible
calls them the powers, and so you know that's something
to keep aware of and remember who is the victor,
who is the ultimate power?
Speaker 2 (07:57):
Yeah, you said, we don't fight against flesh and blood,
but powers and principalities unseen. And because we can't see
it physically, you know, we tend to think that, well,
that's sort of made up stuff. No, I've seen demons.
I've heard demons. I've encountered them, and more times than
I like to. It's not a pleasant experience, but it
certainly made me realize, No, this is real. And a
(08:20):
friend of mine told me the other day, find theologian.
He said, you know, we're supposed to pray in the
name of Jesus and the demons have to flee. Well,
he said, yes, and you know what, they really hate
to hear caath and I go what. He goes, flee
in the name of Jesus, who came in the flesh,
And they go berserk over that because they know it's
(08:40):
true and they can't they have to flee, they can't
stand before it. So we were aware of all of that.
We had things that came along as we were trying
to make these books that made things far more difficult.
We just we just are praying people though we know,
we know what this is. This is spiritual warfare. Let's
get at it, you know. And then we didn't happen
to It happens to everyone. It's just we're aware of
(09:03):
it because we are people who study the Word of
God in its original form, and that's the Hebrew and
I hate to call it the Old Testament and the
Greek and the New It's one story. We should have
never broken it up. There's four hundred years between the
end of the New Old One and beginning of Matthew.
(09:24):
But there was four hundred years of the Jewish people
were you know, it's enslaved in Egypt. We didn't stop
telling the story. Sure, you know, I don't know why.
That's for another time. But we like to think of
it as one unbelievable history lesson and I was told
years ago, and I left in one of my rabbinical
trips when you go to Rock Road and Rabbi Rock
(09:46):
as Jesus rose the Holy Land, and the rabbi is
rabbinical teaching. They were telling me that, you know, when
Abraham and Sarah were called of God to leave their home,
which was modern day it would be modern day Iraq.
Everybody that's that kills me. Now to do who? We
don't know that It doesn't say so, it says from
the land of Er right Brian. Yes, And but the
(10:10):
interesting is that they changed their names later. God changed
their names. Why because he added the letter H and
that means the breath of God. He breathed his breath
into them, and they became new creatures, Abraham and Sarah
as we tend to know them. That when you study
the way, Ryan's true, true genius at all of it.
(10:32):
I'm just a student, but I soak this stuff up
because it makes the Bible, which is really literally written
in black and white. To me, the stories are too epic.
I mean, you're never going to learn in the Bible
about Nero. The way you're going to learn about Nero
from our book is that's there's no time and there's
no you know, no space for me. When my space
(10:52):
started getting very very lukewarm, I started studying in Israel
with with what basically messianic who know every ten layers
down deep into into the Word of God and the
black and white Bible that I had been studying for years.
In fact, I read the Bible from cover to cover
(11:13):
eleven times in eleven years and got so bored out
of my gourd, and I said, there's stuff in here
it's not true. I don't I can't read it anymore.
It's not a lot of it is not true. And
I realized it was because it was. It was a
bad translation. It was a bad translation of what the
word really really said. And once I started learning that,
And that doesn't mean I can speak Greek or speak Hebrew,
(11:35):
I can't, but I we studied the original words. And
then that black and white goes to technicolor and it
goes to Dolby sound and it's it's you're ready to
just dig into it because it's so.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
Rich that that is what I found to be the
best part of this. And I know at the beginning
of the book you say, you know, some of this
is what we imagine the conversations must be like that
we have to kind of kind of infer what they
must have said. But it does take you in to
a life on that is not unlike what we battle
(12:10):
every day.
Speaker 2 (12:11):
And I think.
Speaker 1 (12:12):
That what you said about Paul Saul becoming Paul was
so important that you said, you know, he was just
doing what he thought a different God wanted him to
do it.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
He just didn't know it. You know, he was serving Jehovah, God,
he thought. But so you're right, and yet he was wrong,
you know.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
And that's what I think we I think that has
to kind kind of be I mean you can correct
me if you think I'm wrong. But I think that
has to kind of be a constant struggle for us,
because oftentimes I hear people say, well, God told me
to do this, and it was clear as day, And
I think that leaves some of us who don't hear
God that way going, well, God doesn't talk to me,
I must not know what he wants. And this book
(12:56):
made me realize you're constantly fighting to make sure you're
following what he does want, and you have to be
aware that there is always going to be spirits, bad
spirits that are going to try to get to you
and convince you that you are more important.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
I mean, it takes me right back to Eve. It's like,
why shouldn't you know this stuff?
Speaker 1 (13:19):
And right now there's so many things in the world
that everybody's going you deserve to know this, And I
keep saying, why I don't know that I am supposed
to know that.
Speaker 3 (13:27):
Yeah, that's a fundamental point you're making, actually, because the
nature of sin, if you think about the temptation of
Adam and Eve, the temptation is not well, you know, pleasure, luxury, sexuality, pride.
I mean, all of those things are related but ultimately
the temptation is knowledge and the forbidden fruit, right, you know,
the apple with a bite taken out of it, which
is the symbol of a major corporation today. And so
(13:50):
you know, that's the ultimate human temptation, and it's what
Satan was tempted by, because he said, I will be
like the most high, I will know the things that
I don't I'm not supposed to know. And so a
cour level, the temptation of mankind is to seek after
that kind of arcane or occult knowledge, and it gives power,
and it gives wealth, and it gives riches. So all
of those things are related. So our story is very
(14:10):
much about knowing the truth. You know, Paul did not
know the truth as he was saw at that time
until the truth encountered him and Jesus said, I am
the Way, the Truth and the life. And so Paul
had to meet capital T truth, not an abstraction, but
a person who then changed his orientation. That's everybody's story.
It's time to meet the truth. If you haven't understood
(14:31):
the truth, the capital T truth, who is a person
you don't yet understand the world.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
And you can't be set free.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
Yeah, let's take a quick commercial break. We'll continue next
on the Tutor Dixon Podcast. What you're saying is kind
of blowing my mind because I think about how many people,
especially children, My kids are at Christian schools, and you
see the battle between the Christian message and the message
that's coming through their phones that you talked about, and
(14:59):
you to hear people talk about going down this dark
rabbit hole of information that is it is such a
terrible temptation and the information is not necessarily right, and
too often these exactly these kids are getting pulled and
even adults, I mean, we're getting pulled into this too.
And I tell my girls all the time when the
(15:21):
Bible talks about gossip is so much bigger than you
just gossiping at school. But think about how you gossiping
at school affects the interpersonal relationships of all the girls
that you know, and imagine that on a worldwide scale
through your phone.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
Our words are so powerful. Scripture is very clear about
you know, you have the choice choose life or death
with your with your words, then it says choose life,
you know, And every time I haven't, I've regretted it.
You know, it's easy just to say, oh, just see that.
You know, it's constant, and it's not like you're constantly
(15:56):
monitoring yourself and you think of O, God's not pleased
with me. Now, it's just a tender reminder most of
the time, Kath you know better than that. That's not
what I that saysn't honor me, that's no spirit inside
of you do that's the Holy Spirit. He doesn't condemn.
Jesus did not come to condemn through the law, but
to fulfill it. And you know, and that's another reason
(16:16):
why I wish we'd never The problem with so much
of our world is that we think the Old Testament
was about the Jews and the New Testament is for
the Christians. It's all of us. Some of us are
born into it because of my Jewish heritage, others are grafted.
People assume that Jews they what's the word I'm looking for, Brian,
they convert to Christian No, No, Jews don't convert. They've
(16:41):
just received the Messiah they had not understood for all
those years. Gentiles convert. I appreciate what Kathy is saying
too about the unity of the story between the two Testaments,
and it's so true and you know, tudor as you
think about like our book, and it's landing into the
world in the time when the word Israel or the
Jews or something like that is connected with airplanes and
(17:04):
battles and wars. That's not what our book is about,
other than you know, of course he wrote waged wars.
But our book is about It is about Israel, but
it's about a spiritual concept. It's about the message of Israel,
and as Kathy is saying at the beginning of that
message in the unfolding of the story chapter by chapter,
culminating with Israel's messiah, Yeshua. And then what our book
(17:24):
is about is how this guy saw who was a rabbi.
It's a Jewish name, and he takes a Greek name
so he can relate to the rest of the world,
or a Roman name, but he takes the message of
Israel to the world. And we begin the book talking
about the Temple in Jerusalem and how the veil of
that temple was torn, which usually people think, well that means,
you know, you can get into the Holy of Holies.
It's the opposite. It's that the Holy of Holies is
(17:46):
rushing out to come in be inside of you.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
Oh wow.
Speaker 3 (17:49):
So there's a kind of a bursting forth of the
holy presence of God, the ruach Ha, Kodesh and Hebrew,
and so that the temple can now be anywhere. And
Paul says, I'm going to take that message on now
that I know the truth. I'm going to go to
the end of the world, and we take him in
the story to the end of what his world was,
which was Spain and so and he fulfilled it. And
(18:11):
that's the timeless message, is that Israel's messages is the
message of Jesus and it is for the world.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
And just the way when Kathy Lee, when you were
talking about this coming out in technicolor and Dolby sound,
just the way you describe that veil. Also, the number
of people that had to weave it, the number I
think they did it every two years, the thickness of it,
how many people had to carry it made it so
(18:41):
different to me, you know, because I think of it
as like.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
A little tour thing that floated in the air. At
wasn't whispy.
Speaker 3 (18:48):
It was substitute, you know, And therefore when it was
torn into you had a major piece of fabric that
was being ripped not by human hands, but by divine
hands to give that holiness to the rest of the world.
Speaker 2 (19:01):
I'm sorry, Brian, I'm just because I got excited that
just the other day. I love all the things they're
just discovering all the time, all the time to confirm
what we know is truth. And did you guys read
that They've now scientifically, absolutely proven that in AD thirty
three there was a massive, massive earthquake right there where
(19:21):
Jesus is crucified, right there. That happened, the skies went dark.
They have all kinds of technical ways now to prove
these things. I'm also working and I'll come back and
talk to you when this thing comes out. Working with
a friend on the story of the shroud, the Shroud
of Turin. Well, there's absolutely scientific proof now it was
(19:43):
not the burial cloth of Jesus. It started out that way.
It's the resurrection cloth of Jesus. Because that image could
never have been many without photography and the kind of
energy that went into producing that image, and the way
God has protected that shroud all these two centuries, oh
to millennia is amazing. So God is just confirming what
(20:06):
those of us who seek have believed, and that's why
I didn't like what I was reading in the Bible.
I knew, even as a ten year old little girl,
that Jesus didn't curse that tree, the sycamore fig tree.
I said, I know, teacher, but that doesn't I know
you said it, but I don't think that means that.
What does a ten year old girl kind of understand
that because I said, my Jesus created that tree, he
(20:28):
wouldn't curse something he created. Later, on a rabbinical trip,
I discovered that the sycamore fig tree represented, just as
the olive tree represents the people of the Jewish people,
the sycamore fig tree represented the religious people, and that
was the Pharisees and the Sadducees. And he was cursing
them for not feeding the people that they were supposed
(20:49):
to take care of, and he called them hypocrites, and
he called them, you know, you have your whitewashed tombs,
but inside your dead man's bones, well the word for
hypocrite Greek. I love this actors.
Speaker 3 (21:05):
To stand under a mask.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
Yeah, that's I mean, yes, yes you are. You're pretending
to be someone you're not.
Speaker 3 (21:12):
Well, Kathy, that's a good point. And you know, speaking
of trees being cursed, the scripture says, curse it is
he who hangs on a tree. So when the one
who was cursed in our place is Jesus. And there's
a tree at the beginning in the Garden of Eden,
there's a tree in the end in the Book of Revelation,
and there's a tree right in the middle, and that
is the one on which our Messiah hung. But he
didn't stay there, as you pointed out, so he took
(21:34):
the curse for us, and we can praise him for that.
Speaker 1 (21:37):
How did you come to the point where you said
you wanted to you have another You wrote a book
before this, this was Harrod and Mary was that okay?
So you have and that leads in to Nero and Paul,
how did you come to this point, because Kathy, you
were saying that life really changed when you went there.
Explain that to me, because I want our listeners to
(22:01):
really understand what it is to walk within those footsteps
of Jesus.
Speaker 2 (22:07):
Well, not everybody, especially now. You don't want to go
to the Holy Land right now. Things have got to
calm down, and they will, and there will be another
time where our rock road and Rabbi tours can start
going again. I gave that name to Rabbi Sobles so
he could start the touring business with it. And if
I suggest you go with somebody that actually knows the
scriptures before, a lot of these pastors think they do.
(22:30):
But if your pastor thinks that Jesus was a carpenter,
you know I have he hasn't read the scriptures we
read in the Greek and the Hebrew. The word for
what Jesus and Joseph did in the New Testament, which
I hate to say, but it is in Greek, and
it's the word is techton. And if you look it up,
and anybody can on their ask siri, you know what's
(22:51):
the original Greek? It says architect slash builder. But there
was no buildable wood in first century a D. Back
then Herod didn't build the temple with wood. He accentuated
it with some wood, but there was no buildable wood.
It all had to come down from the cedars of Lebanon,
you know, along the VMRs, which is you know, the west,
it's the beautiful, beautiful coast as Israel, and made into
(23:15):
rafts and then taken apart in well, what's modern day
tel Aviv, basically right, Bryan, and then taken overland by
animals and slaves, tons and tons of slaves. I mean,
Herod moved a mountain to be higher than another mountain
just so he could be buried on the mountain that
was higher. These are the kind of egos we deal with.
(23:37):
You don't learn that unless you go to Herodium, which
was his temple in his palace in Bethlehem, and you
learn that stuff when you go there. But you can
look at my videos with that I did with the
or you can read our books and we'll take you there.
You don't have to get a plane, you don't need
a passport, you know, just just down. In fact, I
(23:57):
wish a lot of people, and they're doing it more
and more. I did all the and I always do
for all my books, not just the two that I've
written with Brian. But I do the audio versions of
them because I don't want somebody else speaking our words
or my words, you know. And I'm so familiar although
these ones, these two books took me four days each.
There's so yeah, And I want to make sure I'm
(24:21):
saying the names properly and the place is properly and
all of that. So we really tried to be very
scholarly about this in the places that, as you mentioned,
we had to use a little imagination. We footnoted. Basically,
we let them know, you know, we know what. Brian's
the scholar, I am not. But we were really careful
about that because we don't want to be guilty of
(24:42):
telling something that we don't believe is true. And it's
all in the in the in the realm of possibility,
of course. But I know you could probably explain the
way you dealt with it.
Speaker 3 (24:54):
Well, you said it well, you said it well. And
Kathy keeps calling me a scholar. But then you listen
to her talk and she knows what she's isn't she
She does, and she's being humble, but she's learned a
lot over the years. Yeah, I think you are. But anyway,
I mean the point is, like she's exactly right. The
readers of this book, you know you might not ever
(25:14):
get a chance. I hope you do get to go
to Israel or in the case of Paul, Greece, which
is where it culminates. And so if until the day
comes that you can walk in the footsteps of these
great heroes, our books are meant to be very vivid,
very story like, very cinematic, and you know, we have
to imagine some things, but we have texts and sources
behind those things. So in the meantime, to our readers,
(25:38):
we invote you to be swept up, not into a
bunch of dry you know, facts and dates or something
like that, but to be swept up into a double
saga where you have this ridiculous antagonist, Nero, and all
the people swirling around him that were like that as well,
and then you had this protagonist who's flawed and who
always says, you know, I was a chief of sinners,
(25:58):
and yet he's got this redemptive arc. And of course
at the end the two of them crashed together in this,
you know, the end of their story as Paul finally
gets to Rome. So it really it really.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
Reads in a story like way.
Speaker 3 (26:11):
We wanted to come across that way, yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
And almost a Hollywood like way where you're going this
story cannot possibly be. But it also makes you realize
this is how Hollywood came to be, was the stories
of the past were so vivid and so unrealistic, and
yet this happened, and it's it's interesting because as you
read through, there's this desire for Paul to rub off
(26:35):
on your O. You know, there's this human desire to
go get it, finally get it and and redeem yourself.
You know, redemption is something that I think is always
lingering in our hearts and the need for redemption. And
I think that's that spirit that's constantly calling us back
(26:55):
and saying, be wary of the idols, be wary of
the that sinful nature that's.
Speaker 2 (27:01):
Pulling you test them.
Speaker 4 (27:03):
Yeah, and yet you know that there are people who
never are you know, Nero never he never turned he
never was redeemed, he never turned turn good.
Speaker 2 (27:15):
And how do you how.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
Do you prepare yourself to stop those people from being
in your life, to stop that influence, which I think
is very easy to have that influence in your life
right now because people can get to you. Evil forces
can get to you so much easier today than any
other time.
Speaker 2 (27:35):
Yeah, but people ask us all and I'm sure you too, Tutor.
You know, do you think there's more evil in the world.
I'm asked that every day, so is Briant. So it
may seem that way because you know, people have phones
and they collect successible you would never see. And then
there's twenty four hour of course channels where you know,
if you see images you wish you never did and
(27:57):
you can't get rid of them, you know they're there.
And but I I say, no, it seems like it.
But the truth is, Uh, evils in the story in
the scripture starts in Genesis, in the in the garden.
And whether you believe that metaphorically or really or literally, Uh,
it doesn't change the story for me. It's it's you know,
it's it's fascinating cinematically, of course, but it's the point
(28:20):
of what I'm trying to make is that even as
God is walking in the coolness of the evening with
the Adam and Eve, the serpent is in the garden.
So why should we you know? He was always there,
always there, always there. And so but the subtitle of
our book is Living Hope, Ancient evil which has always
(28:41):
been with us, juxtaposed against living Hope. And if you've
read our book, Herod and Mary Uh and I hope
you have. If you haven't, you will also find it fascinating.
It ends with with basically Herod's death, as Mary and
Uh and the baby Jesus are returning back from from
(29:02):
Egypt because the one who sought to kill them is dead.
And we we we at the end of that that book.
I was doing the audio version. It took me an
hour to get through it. I would sob every time
we had I had to read the end of the book.
You have to read it, you know. I don't call
(29:22):
in Gwyneth Paltrow to do it, because I can't you
do it. And but even when you listen to the audio,
you hear me just I can't you know what I'm
talking about, Brian. I don't want to give the book
the end of the book away, but we needed a
way to express why the guy who called himself the
King of the Jews, who wasn't even a Jew, and
(29:43):
Mary who had just given birth to the King of Kings. Yeah,
you know, it's just profoundly moving to me. Even right now,
I'm remembering I had to have my book my hip
replaced the next day. I just stumbled into that next
and I'm done. I'm done.
Speaker 3 (30:00):
I'm glad you brought those things up, because, you know,
as we talk about great evil, and we're talking about
demonic powers and evil spirits and kind of the tyrants
of the world, whether they're in the first century or today.
It's important to recognize that the story is one of hope.
And you say, well, you know, like a Nero. Like Tutor,
you said, he never converted. That's true. We have no evidence.
He commits suicide and he's pitiful. But as Paul came
(30:23):
and made his way to Rome, the seeds of the
gospel fell under the soil. That was good. So Paul
getting there. Yeah, Okay, he didn't convert Nero as far
as we could ever tell, but many others did. In fact,
the scripture says that there are some in the emperor's
household who are believers, which would be Nero's household. So
the gospel goes for it, right.
Speaker 1 (30:43):
Yes, I found that fascinating.
Speaker 3 (30:44):
Yeah, there's a triumph to it all. And sometimes that
triumph is secret or hidden. But God's up to something,
even in the lives of your listeners.
Speaker 1 (30:53):
Let's take a quick commercial break. We'll continue next on
a Tutor Dixon podcast. I think the story of Grace
is so important in this book because that is where
we get caught up and saying we can never be redeemed,
we can never be good enough. Is that we can't.
We don't understand grace. We don't understand his love. And
(31:15):
so often when I'm frustrated with myself, I say, what
would I do if my kids had made a mistake.
They will absolutely hug them and love them, and I
would just it would not matter. I will always love them.
How much more does God love me than that? How
much more grace does He have for me? And that
(31:36):
to me was where Paul was.
Speaker 3 (31:38):
Yeah, right, well, he was aware of his sins, and
so his gospel was it some abstraction as he preached grace,
and he's the apostle of grace. He knew first and
foremost I have received grace, and then he passed on
that message. And praise God for his grace. We all
need it.
Speaker 2 (31:56):
So I want people.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
I want people right now as we go into not
only are we going into the Easter season, but in
the world we're going into a very challenging season when
it comes to politics, and politics is I would say,
to your point of evil has always been there. Politics
is there, but in abundance now. And I see younger
(32:19):
and younger people getting affected by the stresses of politics
and by the false teachings. And now we see false
prophets and false teachers getting into mixing that. I want
to be a political leader, but I'm also going to
bring a false gospel to you. And we're seeing that
out of Texas right now, where we have a candidate
who is saying God is a woman and God is
(32:39):
non binary. And the story of Mary is the story
of why God approves of abortion and all these crazy things.
And that to me is like, this is a time
to get deep into a book like this where you
can really feel those times and see God's grace but
also God's lessons, how true his word is and what
(33:02):
is the word of the false teachers? And how did
you determine which is which? And help your children determine
which is which and follow the path of the Lord.
Speaker 2 (33:13):
Well, that's one of the reasons I keep writing all
of these kinds of books and making my movies to
the way I shot a lot of it in Israel.
And it's just important that we understand where we came
from and how we got here now. And I as
a woman who had a Jewish father who was an
immigrant from Russia, rushied he escaped the programs. My mother's
(33:37):
father was also an immigrant. There's a lot of talk
about that. I don't get involved politically, but I just
I don't even know what I was going to say.
It's you know, Brian, I've probably done one hundred interviews
in the.
Speaker 3 (33:47):
Last pay Well, whatever is going to it's going to
be about Yhua and the goodness of his message for sure.
Speaker 2 (33:55):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. What I was going to say is
that so many of us who are our believers and
we sincerely try to follow you Shore or if you
call him Christ, same same person, same person, but one
is is Hebrew and one is is uh Is from
the Apostolic period after Jesus was resurrected and ascended, and uh,
you know, people were not called Christians when Jesus was
(34:18):
on the earth. They were called followers of the Way.
And then then, of course we know what happened, and
Jesus went away, and then it became the New period,
and then it was called the Apostolic way because it
was it was different. They weren't disciples anymore than in
the same way they were taken. They were to take
it at what's the meaning Greek to take away, to
go forth with, to be an apostle.
Speaker 3 (34:38):
The apostle means sent out. Yeah, yeah, we sent nder
the eyewitnesses.
Speaker 2 (34:43):
Yeah, so I just wish people would understand where we
came from. As from a Jewish perspective, it's important. Jesus
was a rabbi. He kept every one of the of
the festivals and and all the main things that happened
in Jesus's life, tutor happened on during the fest All
that we read about, lots of them, and ninety percent
of what Jesus talks about was from Galilee. But he
(35:05):
went to the festivals. And we say Easter in our culture,
but it was not Easter Sunday that Jesus was resurrected.
It was first fruits. It's called first fruits in the
in the Jewish faith. To tell him what first fruits is.
Speaker 3 (35:21):
Well, first fruits and Jesus is called the first fruits
of the resurrection. But it basically means that the Israelites
would bring in when they got a harvest, they would
offer the beginnings of the harvest because they said, Lord,
we know you're going to bring much more. So when
Jesus is resurrected, he's the first fruits of a harvest
to come. There's going to be so many more resurrections
and life. If he's the life, much more life is
(35:44):
going to be harvested in the wake of that one.
So it has a reference to that.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
I just love learning about that. We know, we know
about Passover, he's crucified on Passover, but think about Easter
because that's really is it a pain in term? It's
just not Hebrew.
Speaker 3 (35:59):
The word is like from Ishtar I think, which was
a goddess or something.
Speaker 2 (36:03):
But see that's where the east is on the east.
Speaker 3 (36:05):
So it's related to that, like the resurrection in the
east the sun. Well, it's just it's the word everybody uses,
and so I guess we have to embrace it on
that level. But as you're pointing out their roots behind it.
Speaker 1 (36:17):
Yeah, I mean, there's there is so much to learn.
And I love that you wrote the book. I like
I said, I love the way the book is written.
For those of you who haven't read it, you read
a chapter, you're taken in. It's like it is like
you're watching a movie. You're taken right to that time,
and then we get this commentary from the two of
you at the end, which, as you can see if
(36:38):
you're listening, you know that it's beautiful.
Speaker 2 (36:40):
It is amazing, and it.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
Is really thoughtful, but it's also very natural. So I
love the way the book is written. I encourage people
to go out and get it. It is Nero and
Paul how the Gospel of Grace defeated the ruler of Rome.
So tell everybody. It's just everywhere, right all the bookstores.
It's available March tenth, so you can pre order it
right now.
Speaker 2 (37:02):
That and the audio, and yeah, I think it'll take
you on a journey. We learned from our first book
here and Mary, that we did the coda at the
very end. The coda is really a musical term to
repeat to go back and discuss. But I think this
way works better because we right, You're right. The chapters
are very specific and then we talk in Our code
(37:24):
is about how we can apply it to today and
what can we learn from this that I can literally
take away from that and apply it to my own life,
because otherwise it's just entertainment, and we want to entertain
with our book. We really do. I've been an entertainer
all my life, and I don't know any other way
to even think except for in rhyme and lyrics and
cinematically that's who I am. He comes more from the
(37:47):
academic world. So it's a good combination of this.
Speaker 1 (37:50):
Yes, that's why it's such a good mix. Honestly, that's
what I was thinking. My daughter is always saying, I
want a better study Bible that kind of explains things
to me. And this is this is like you said,
this takes some stories from the Bible and it just
kind of blows them up and goes in deeper. But
that at the end, that study part of it takes
you to today, which I think is so beautiful.
Speaker 2 (38:11):
I think it was Cody's idea.
Speaker 3 (38:12):
Cody, Yeah, your son, Cody. He's a great dude. Oh yeah,
Cody's got his thumb prints all over this book too.
Speaker 2 (38:17):
He's such a good ud.
Speaker 3 (38:19):
He's a keeper.
Speaker 2 (38:20):
Yeah, that's good. I love that guy. Like his life
so much better than him myself. I love Eric because
she's so much nicer to me than you.
Speaker 3 (38:27):
Walk that's hilarious.
Speaker 2 (38:29):
I married her.
Speaker 1 (38:31):
But even the way you explain, I'll say this, and
I know we've got a little over, but you're so
fascinating to talk to you.
Speaker 2 (38:38):
I will say, even the way and I could see.
Speaker 1 (38:41):
Your connection to Mary, and I understand why you're saying
the last book was hard for you to read because
even the way you described Mary watching Jesus crucified and saying,
my son's thirty five, what would I do as a mom,
and that I would put myself in that place? And
I think the same I was thinking as you were
taking me through that in the book. I was thinking, Yes, yes,
(39:04):
as a mom, you would do anything. And and we
have to remember that what we know she didn't know.
She didn't have that foresight of what was next.
Speaker 2 (39:13):
You know, she didn't know that art. She knew she
had enough people telling her this will be right.
Speaker 1 (39:19):
But that human side of her is he's still getting
pulled away that he's not with her every day.
Speaker 2 (39:26):
And yet she's at the cross, but she's also at the.
Speaker 3 (39:28):
Tomb and room when the when the Holy Spirit descends,
she's there too.
Speaker 2 (39:34):
Yes, room at that And that is Pentecost, that was
that's always been a ya. That's a it's a Greek word,
but it's it's something that the Jews celebrate. That's fifty
days after Passover, right right, And.
Speaker 3 (39:45):
This is the kind of thing that we wanted those
those codas to do. Where which is like like you're
doing tu to recinc I have to think about this
from my own life, and if it's just a book
about go to the first century or people from long ago,
doesn't have that. But so many people love Kathy's voice.
They heard it in their ears for you know, every
day for so many years. All those listeners are now
a new generation that's getting to know her, and so
(40:06):
we wanted we wanted to talk about the book. So
you get a little window at the end of each
chapter into what we're thinking and how it might apply,
and jokes and insights, and we share back and forth
and so like you said, it's like a little miniature
podcast at the end of each chapter.
Speaker 1 (40:22):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, I loved it. I encourage everybody to
go out and get it again. It's Nero and Paul
how the Gospel of Grace defeated the Ruler of Rome,
and it is Kathy Lee Gifford and doctor Brian Litvin.
Thank you so much for sharing today. It was amazing
talking to you both.
Speaker 2 (40:38):
Thanks for having God blessing loom shalom everybody.
Speaker 1 (40:42):
God bless you, yes, and thank you all for listening
to the podcast.
Speaker 2 (40:46):
God bless you. Get the book.
Speaker 1 (40:47):
Go out and make sure you tune into the next podcast.
We love having you all listening, and thank you so
much for joining me today.
Speaker 2 (40:53):
We loved having you here.
The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show News
Hosts And Creators
Clay Travis
Buck Sexton
Show Links
WebsiteNewsletterPopular Podcasts
Betrayal Season 5
Saskia Inwood woke up one morning, knowing her life would never be the same. The night before, she learned the unimaginable – that the husband she knew in the light of day was a different person after dark. This season unpacks Saskia’s discovery of her husband’s secret life and her fight to bring him to justice. Along the way, we expose a crime that is just coming to light. This is also a story about the myth of the “perfect victim:” who gets believed, who gets doubted, and why. We follow Saskia as she works to reclaim her body, her voice, and her life. If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal Team, email us at betrayalpod@gmail.com. Follow us on Instagram @betrayalpod and @glasspodcasts. Please join our Substack for additional exclusive content, curated book recommendations, and community discussions. Sign up FREE by clicking this link Beyond Betrayal Substack. Join our community dedicated to truth, resilience, and healing. Your voice matters! Be a part of our Betrayal journey on Substack.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com