February 28, 2022 • 19 mins
Ukraine has agreed to talk with Russia hoping to end the invasion, but say they want peace talks and are not ready to surrender. There is little hope for a resolution as Putin has ratcheted up the tensions by ordering his nuclear deterrent forces to be on high alert and with Ukrainians banding together, Russian forces are having a more difficult time taking over the country. Ginger Gibson, deputy Washington digital editor at NBC News, joins us for more.
Next, as Covid infections are dropping, Americans are going back to bars, movies and sporting events but one place they aren't going back to is the office. Employers are doing everything they can to get their workers back, but many have found a work-life balance that they don't want to let go of. It's not even about Covid as 61% of remote workers are doing so by choice. Callum Borchers, On The Clock columnist at the WSJ, joins us for why workers just don't want to go back.
Finally, the days of the International Space Station are numbered as NASA plans to retire it by 2031. It will be quite a spectacle as the plans are to gradually lower it closer to earth with a splashdown in the Pacific Ocean. With this massive hole in low Earth orbit, it will also set off the race for private companies to be the next big space research hub. Amanda Schupak, contributor at The Daily Beast, tells us what's next for the ISS.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
It's Monday, February. I'm Oscar Ramirez in Los Angeles and
this is the Daily Dive. Ukraine has agreed to talk
with Russia, hoping to end the invasion, but say they
want peace talks and are not ready to surrender. There's
little hope for a resolution as Putin has ratcheted up
(00:20):
the tensions by ordering his nuclear deterrent forces to be
on high alert, and with Ukrainians banning together, Russian forces
are having a more difficult time taking over the country.
Ginger Gibson, Deputy Washington Digital editor at NBC News, joined
us for more Next. As COVID infections are dropping, Americans
are going back to bars, movies, and sporting events. But
(00:41):
one place they aren't going back to is the office.
Many have found a work life balance that they don't
want to let go of. It's not even about COVID.
At six cent of remote workers are doing so by choice.
Callum Borscher's on the Clock columnists at The Wall Street
Journal joined us for why workers just don't want to
go back. Finally, the days of the International Space Station
(01:02):
are numbered as NASA plans to retire it bye. It
will be quite a spectacle as the plans are to
gradually lower it closer to Earth with a splashdown in
the Pacific Ocean. With this massive hole in low Earth orbit,
it will also set up a race for private companies
to be the next big space research hub. Amanda shoe Pack,
contributor to The Daily Beast, tells us what's next for
(01:24):
the i s S. It's news without the noise. Let's
dive in. You've got to do everything we can to
change the heavy odds that Ukraine faces and to help them.
And so that's why we're sending humanitarian supplies, We're sending
financial supplies and military supplies. As joining us now, as
(01:46):
Ginger Gibson, Deputy Washington Digital editor at NBC News, thanks
for joining us, Ginger, thanks for having me. Well, let's
talk about the latest as the fighting continues in Ukraine.
President Zelinski there said he spoke with the Belarus president
in Alexander Lukashenko and said that he would be meeting
with the Russians without preconditions. They're gonna be meeting on
(02:06):
the Ukraine border there. This is just an effort to
really see if they can do anything. Zelinsky said he
doesn't think anything will come of the meeting um and
they said that they're ready for peace talks, but they're
not ready to surrender. And this is all coming as
President Putin ordered his Russian nuclear deterrent forces to be
on high alert, which really started spooking a lot of people.
(02:27):
I did spook a lot of people, including the US.
I think that we're watching this unfold in a way
that the Russians nor the Ukrainians really expected. The Russians
thought that they were going to march into Ukraine, march
into the capital of Kiev, and have the whole place
sewn up in a couple of days and by the
weekend they would be uh sending droms back home and
it would be over. But that is not how this
(02:47):
has gone. And I think we've seen that evidence in
the way that Putin announced that, as you mentioned, he
was going to activate this nuclear deterrence. He's also started
increasing the sort of pointing to the US and European
allies at being behind some of the defense that arguing
that the Ukrainians might not have been able to do
this themselves. He put out a statement this weekend that
suggested US drones were over the Black Sea and providing
(03:12):
intel to the Ukrainian navy. So it definitely sees this
as not just a fight against Ukraine and Russia and Ukraine,
but I fight with those who would be allied with Ukraine.
And so I think we're watching that unfold. We've really
seen the Ukrainian people come together on this one, and
the government even say hey, if you want to fight,
we're going to help you, supply you with guns. We're seeing,
(03:33):
you know, residents there helped make molotov cocktails for when
Russian forces come into their neighborhood, neighborhoods and things. I
mean you we've really seen them banded together and fight,
and even here in the States, you know, people just
throwing you know, Ukrainian people throwing as much support as
they can to their home country. That's right. You know,
we've really seen the Ukrainian people sort of stick together.
(03:54):
We saw President Zelinski, you know, the US urged him
to leave the country last week, saying that thought he
was a Russian target, that he was in danger, that
he should go to Poland. He refused to do so,
and he stayed there and really fought and fought alongside
his countrymen. And that's military and non military. As you
mentioned handing out guns, handing out grenades, telling people how
(04:15):
to make Molotov cocktails to throw out the windows of
their apartments. Um, should they see Russian troops. I mean,
this is really a bigger fight than Russia thought they
were going to get from the Ukrainian people, who are
just not willing to surrender. As the President said, he's
not willing to surrender to Russia. He'll talk to them,
but he's not going to give up. What a trajectory
for Zelinsky, right, coming being a comedian, being embroiled in
(04:38):
whatever was happening with President Trump at the time, and
now I mean really standing strong in in face of
all this Russian opposition. That's right. Zelinski was a comedian,
that was his background. He was kind of the John
Steward of Ukraine. And this was a guy who was,
you know, political satirist. He wasn't considered, um a longstanding politician,
but has shown his country. I think no matter how
(05:00):
this plays out in the coming days and weeks, Um
will be viewed by the Ukrainians as a hero for
generations to come. One of the other things we're saying
that European allies were pretty hesitant to do at first
was to take Rush out of the Swift banking system.
This is the international banking system. They move money back
and forth. More allies are coming on board. The U
(05:20):
says they're on board, and this would really harm them
from operating globally. This is a system that's basically member run,
so every country that's involved has to agree in order
to impose a sanction that would cut someone out, and
it's considered a really drastic action. You know, the only
places we've cut from Swift or Iran, so that's not
something to do very often. Um. But we saw that
(05:42):
over the weekend more European allies that were originally unwilling
to do so now coming on board saying they think
some limits, not all limits, but some limits. So some
of the banks in Russia would be limited, um, from
using Swift, and that would really make it difficult, as
you said, for them to move money around, for them
to access money. We operate in a global financial system,
(06:03):
so UM, cutting a nation are some banks in a
nation off from Swift would be immediately noticed by the
people of that country. You know. This is kind of
an old school power grab land grab type of move
from Russia trying to invade Ukraine here, and it's making
a lot of other Eastern European countries pretty nervous, most
notably you know, Poland, Lithuania, lot Via, Estonia. You know
(06:27):
where does Putin stop if he succeeds here. That that's
the other big worry. I think a lot of people
thought that the days of a European land war were over. Um,
that war was sort of a gritty, terrorist driven, small
cell driven folks like isis this is a government. This
is the government of a very large country launching this invasion.
(06:48):
And this looks like the wars that we thought were past.
So I think it's making a lot of people nervous.
It's making people nervous in Europe that, um, if Putin
isn't stopped in Ukraine, that he'll feel empowered and he'll
continue to have at West. And I think that's making
people all over the globe they're nervous. We thought the
imperials and conquering was done, and this looks like someone's
trying again. Ginger Gibson Gepity Washington, digital editor at NBC News,
(07:12):
thank you very much for joining us. Thanks for having
me to try to be accommodating you know, you try
to work with your people, not be overbearing, And I
think the hope a lot of CEOs have is that
their company culture will be so magnetic that people would
(07:33):
just kind of come back voluntarily without a mandate, And
what they're waking up to right now is that's not happening.
Joining us now is Callum Borschers on the Clock columnists
at the Wall Street Journal. Thanks for joining us, Callum,
so glad to be with you. I want to talk
about this interesting thing that's ongoing, obviously throughout the pandemic
and returning back to work. People just simply do not
(07:55):
want to go back to the office. Obviously, this is
a story for those that are lucky enough to be
able to do remote work, as many are not, but
they find themselves really not wanting to go back. It
doesn't really seem to be that it's all about COVID.
We're seeing cases dropped. They've just found working at home
so much better for them their personal lives. And you've
(08:16):
talked to a couple of business people and them trying
to make really great accommodations at the office, and people
still just not want to go back. So Callum, tell
us a little more about it. Yeah, well, that's such
a great point that you made at the very end there.
I'll give you an example. I talked to the president
of a sports marketing firm in Chicago called Revolution, and
I mean, this is like a dream office. If you
(08:37):
had to show up, this is where I want to be.
I mean, you step off the elevator, picture this, and
then you walk through a tunnel into the lobby as
if you were an athlete, you know, coming out of
the locker room into an arena. And they got bleachers
and a scoreboard. They got a full size Formula one
race car. I mean, this is a cool office. And
then to boot at the end of the day, they've
got an office bar stocked with free beer and bourbon.
(08:58):
I mean, how do you top this? And yet even
they can only get people to come in two maybe
three days a week. You know, much of the staff
still prefers to be home most of the time. And
and the boss over there says, hey, you know, honestly,
it's kind of frustrating. You do everything you can do.
You try to be accommodating, you know, you try to
to work with your people, not be overbearing. And I
(09:18):
think the hope a lot of CEOs have is that
their company culture will be so magnetic that people would
just kind of come back voluntarily without a mandate. And
what they're waking up to right now is that's not happening.
The President Revolution that you spoke to said people still
aren't comfortable coming back. And the question I had right,
we're seeing case rates drop from COVID, and are they
(09:39):
just not comfortable coming back or are they too comfortable
at home? That's an important distinction, you know, he says.
People are saying, oh, I'm not quite comfortable coming back.
But I think a lot of CEOs should sort of
smell something fishy in that, because there they can look
out into the world and and as some told me,
you know, look, I I see sports arenas that are full,
I see restaurant, I see people flying on airplanes. I
(10:02):
scroll Instagram, and I see my employees taking vacations. So
they're comfortable getting out and about. That's not to dismiss
COVID fears. Many people still do have them. A lot
of folks, including myself, you know, have very young children
who can't be vaccinated, and they remain very cautious. But
you're right, you know, the latest research from the Pew
Research Center clearly shows that six in ten workers at
(10:24):
this point who who are working from home are doing
so by choice. And then within that group, three quarters
say it they're at home just because they simply prefer
to be at home. So so that's really what's going
on here. For a lot of folks, Big Banks, Goldman, Sachs,
tech giants, Microsoft, Meta Platforms, formerly Facebook, they were planning
(10:44):
for March returns to the office and just you know,
had this statin here nationwide. You know, office occupancy rates
are hovering about one third, So even the big guys
are having a trouble, having trouble getting people back. You know.
I talked with a software engineer, for example, to New
York City, made a great living, but didn't want to
get back on the subway, you know, two hours round
(11:05):
trip every day. So he was willing to take a
pay cut, quit that job, take a remote gig. He
up and moved his family to Puerto Rico, where the
cost of living is lower and the weather is watch
much much better, and you know, so in other words,
he was willing to make less for the remote flexibility.
I spoke with another worker in upstate New York who's
in her early sixties, didn't really plan to retire, but
(11:28):
once she was sent home in March, threw herself into
new activities. She got she got a puppy, she took
up across country skiing and gardening, really developed a new
lifestyle that she loved. And then when the company was
going to call her back to the office last summer,
she said, forget it. I'd rather retire early than then
go back. So I think that what's happening here. I
think a lot of employers think, well, I'm going to
(11:48):
call my workers bluff right when when push comes to shove,
they'll come back. They won't actually take a pay cut,
or they won't actually quit and retire. That's true for some,
but but some are following through. They are quitting or
they are tiring. You spoke to another president of a
company of automatic payroll systems in Louisiana. He said, it
kind of stings. It hurt a little bit because he
(12:09):
made an investment in his people. They made those plans
through the thickest part of the pandemic to make sure
that they still have jobs, and then another opportunity remote work,
and they just kind of up and left. So he
even feels this thing of that is that you know
that there was no loyalty. You know, it kind of
continues on what I'm talking about. You know, there's been
this great reshuffling of the work culture through this. This
(12:31):
is one of the other layers of the workplace development, right,
is that there are a lot of companies, in part
because they were able to get those paycheck protection loans
from the federal government, but they made a real effort
to keep workers employed. A lot of people did lose
their jobs, but many folks kept their jobs. And so
the company you're talking about is this payroll software company
in Shreveport, Louisiana. And and and you're right, Aaron Johnson,
(12:55):
the CEO down there, it says, you know, honestly, it's
it does. It stings a little bit because you know,
we stood by these workers. We we did what we
had to do to make sure that nobody lost their
job when the economy was at its worst. And then
we get to know the other end and we say, okay,
now it's time to come back. Not even full time.
He's asking for three days a week in the office.
And he told me he lost thirty percent of the
(13:16):
staff last year, largely because folks were taking remote gigs
with with you know, firms in California, New York, Texas,
places that would pay them more but would allow them
to stay in lower cost Louisiana. Callum Borchers on the
Clock columnist at the Wall Street Journal, thank you very
much for joining us. It was a pleasure. Thanks for
(13:38):
having me. There have been people on it since two
thousand doing research, and it's just it's big, and it
takes a lot of maintenance, and it costs a lot
of money, and it's just not gonna last for happen.
Joining us now is Amanda Shoepack, contributor to The Daily Beast.
(13:59):
Thanks for joining us, Amanda, thanks for having me. I
wanted to talk about this interesting uh A story. The
days of the International Space Station could be limited. It
seems that NASA is planning on retiring this research station
that we have in a low Earth orbit by one
possibly and then uh you know, to the point of
your article, the race to succeed that who you know
(14:22):
what will be the next big space station that will
have that researchers and scientists can use and perform experiments
all that. It's very interesting. So Amanda help us walk
through some of this. What's going on with the space station?
Why are we getting rid of it? Well, we're talking
a little bit because it's old. We're already going on
a quarter century of having it up in space, and
(14:42):
there have been people on it since two thousand doing research,
and it's just it's big, and it takes a lot
of maintenance, and it costs a lot of money, and
it's just not gonna last forever. I guess they're just
gonna slowly lower it back to Earth and let it
crash into the water sometime. I think in late maybe
it's in one And that's, by the way, assuming the
(15:04):
station even makes it that long. They start to sort
of slowly decrease the altitude over the course of a
couple of months, and at some point gravity basically takes
over and pulls it in and it ends up crashing
into the middle of the Pacific Ocean in this area
that basically like a spacecraft cemetery. So what happens next.
(15:25):
We're hoping that the private sector are the ones that
are going to be creating these next space stations, and
there's already kind of some movement on all of that,
and you know, NASA is going to be basically renting
space on a lot of these spots, and you know,
hopefully other countries and stuffal will do so also. But
tell me about that whole process, you know what's next. So, yeah,
(15:47):
NASA is basically going to be handing over the reins
to private industry um and we're seeing that paradigm play
out already in private companies doing missions into space, and
this is kind of a now full evolution of that perhaps.
But to make sure that NASA always has a place
to go, a place to work, they're making sure that
(16:08):
companies are invested in creating new space station So they're
funding some of the design work to go into creating
new stations and basically saying, save us a spot that
when you get it up there, we have a place
to send our astronauts to do research. Tell me about
Axiom Space. Houston's Axiom Space, because they seem like the
(16:29):
furthest along in this. They're gonna launch a civilian mission
to the International Space Station and eventually they're going to
attach a module to the International Space Station and detach eventually,
which would be kind of that first replacement space station
kind of thing. So Axiom has the inside track because
in I think it was they made an agreement with
(16:51):
NASA to create the first modules, privately funded, privately manufactured
modules that will connect to the International Space Station, and
then the longer term plan is that when the space
station is retired, those modules will disconnect from the space
station and they will be the first free flying commercial
space destinations in history. You know, there's a lot of
(17:14):
brochures things going around. I think the Orbital Reef space
Station is kind of another concept, and you know, a
lot of the marketing data for this really makes it
seem pretty splashy. You know, they're positioning it as places
that people can visit, live and work. So there's a
lot of big ideas going on for that and kind
of continue on this front, right what happens next. So
(17:35):
some people say, you know, maybe nothing will happen, Maybe
there won't be enough will to kind of continue out
in the space arena. That way, a lot of the business,
initial business stuff, maybe the axiom space stuff, you know,
will be looking back at Earth offering a sellable data
things like deforestation, climate change, land use, um. So even
going into space, we're gonna be looking back at our
(17:57):
own selves. Depending on who you speak to, their different
views of where things are most likely to go. And
I think that there is an appetite for commercial industry
in low Earth orbit, so we're probably going to see something.
The question is how far is that going to extend
and what are we going to see? So one expert
that I spoke to for the article, basically it was like,
(18:18):
why are we even bothering with lower Earth orbit? It's boring,
Let's go to Mars, let's go to the Moon, let's
stop circling our own Earth. And he's got a point.
But I think that there's something really attractive about low
Earth orbit and it's something we can actually do, whereas
we cannot go to Mars yet. And then if we
do end up creating some sort of a commercial market
(18:40):
space for humans in low Earth orbit, what are we
going to be doing with it? And so another expert
I spoke to said, well, chances are we're going to
be using a lot of that infrastructure that gets created
to look backwards onto ourselves and to use that as
advantage point for monitoring what's going on here on Earth.
But then w they're out, maybe space tourism is really
(19:02):
going to happen maybe there are adventure tourists out there
with defa enough pockets who will want to hit your
rides of space and stay in a Philippe Stark designed
hotel room for three days before coming home. That's not
out of the question. Amanda's Shoe Pack contributor to The
Daily Beast. Thank you very much for joining us. Thank you.
(19:30):
That's it for today. Join us on social media at
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stories that you're interested in. Follow us and I Heart Radio,
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The Daily Dive was produced by Victor Wright and engineered
by Tony Sarrantino. Hi'm Oscar Ramirez and this was your
(19:52):
Daily Dive
It's Monday, February. I'm Oscar Ramirez in Los Angeles and
this is the Daily Dive. Ukraine has agreed to talk
with Russia, hoping to end the invasion, but say they
want peace talks and are not ready to surrender. There's
little hope for a resolution as Putin has ratcheted up
(00:20):
the tensions by ordering his nuclear deterrent forces to be
on high alert, and with Ukrainians banning together, Russian forces
are having a more difficult time taking over the country.
Ginger Gibson, Deputy Washington Digital editor at NBC News, joined
us for more Next. As COVID infections are dropping, Americans
are going back to bars, movies, and sporting events. But
(00:41):
one place they aren't going back to is the office.
Many have found a work life balance that they don't
want to let go of. It's not even about COVID.
At six cent of remote workers are doing so by choice.
Callum Borscher's on the Clock columnists at The Wall Street
Journal joined us for why workers just don't want to
go back. Finally, the days of the International Space Station
(01:02):
are numbered as NASA plans to retire it bye. It
will be quite a spectacle as the plans are to
gradually lower it closer to Earth with a splashdown in
the Pacific Ocean. With this massive hole in low Earth orbit,
it will also set up a race for private companies
to be the next big space research hub. Amanda shoe Pack,
contributor to The Daily Beast, tells us what's next for
(01:24):
the i s S. It's news without the noise. Let's
dive in. You've got to do everything we can to
change the heavy odds that Ukraine faces and to help them.
And so that's why we're sending humanitarian supplies, We're sending
financial supplies and military supplies. As joining us now, as
(01:46):
Ginger Gibson, Deputy Washington Digital editor at NBC News, thanks
for joining us, Ginger, thanks for having me. Well, let's
talk about the latest as the fighting continues in Ukraine.
President Zelinski there said he spoke with the Belarus president
in Alexander Lukashenko and said that he would be meeting
with the Russians without preconditions. They're gonna be meeting on
(02:06):
the Ukraine border there. This is just an effort to
really see if they can do anything. Zelinsky said he
doesn't think anything will come of the meeting um and
they said that they're ready for peace talks, but they're
not ready to surrender. And this is all coming as
President Putin ordered his Russian nuclear deterrent forces to be
on high alert, which really started spooking a lot of people.
(02:27):
I did spook a lot of people, including the US.
I think that we're watching this unfold in a way
that the Russians nor the Ukrainians really expected. The Russians
thought that they were going to march into Ukraine, march
into the capital of Kiev, and have the whole place
sewn up in a couple of days and by the
weekend they would be uh sending droms back home and
it would be over. But that is not how this
(02:47):
has gone. And I think we've seen that evidence in
the way that Putin announced that, as you mentioned, he
was going to activate this nuclear deterrence. He's also started
increasing the sort of pointing to the US and European
allies at being behind some of the defense that arguing
that the Ukrainians might not have been able to do
this themselves. He put out a statement this weekend that
suggested US drones were over the Black Sea and providing
(03:12):
intel to the Ukrainian navy. So it definitely sees this
as not just a fight against Ukraine and Russia and Ukraine,
but I fight with those who would be allied with Ukraine.
And so I think we're watching that unfold. We've really
seen the Ukrainian people come together on this one, and
the government even say hey, if you want to fight,
we're going to help you, supply you with guns. We're seeing,
(03:33):
you know, residents there helped make molotov cocktails for when
Russian forces come into their neighborhood, neighborhoods and things. I
mean you we've really seen them banded together and fight,
and even here in the States, you know, people just
throwing you know, Ukrainian people throwing as much support as
they can to their home country. That's right. You know,
we've really seen the Ukrainian people sort of stick together.
(03:54):
We saw President Zelinski, you know, the US urged him
to leave the country last week, saying that thought he
was a Russian target, that he was in danger, that
he should go to Poland. He refused to do so,
and he stayed there and really fought and fought alongside
his countrymen. And that's military and non military. As you
mentioned handing out guns, handing out grenades, telling people how
(04:15):
to make Molotov cocktails to throw out the windows of
their apartments. Um, should they see Russian troops. I mean,
this is really a bigger fight than Russia thought they
were going to get from the Ukrainian people, who are
just not willing to surrender. As the President said, he's
not willing to surrender to Russia. He'll talk to them,
but he's not going to give up. What a trajectory
for Zelinsky, right, coming being a comedian, being embroiled in
(04:38):
whatever was happening with President Trump at the time, and
now I mean really standing strong in in face of
all this Russian opposition. That's right. Zelinski was a comedian,
that was his background. He was kind of the John
Steward of Ukraine. And this was a guy who was,
you know, political satirist. He wasn't considered, um a longstanding politician,
but has shown his country. I think no matter how
(05:00):
this plays out in the coming days and weeks, Um
will be viewed by the Ukrainians as a hero for
generations to come. One of the other things we're saying
that European allies were pretty hesitant to do at first
was to take Rush out of the Swift banking system.
This is the international banking system. They move money back
and forth. More allies are coming on board. The U
(05:20):
says they're on board, and this would really harm them
from operating globally. This is a system that's basically member run,
so every country that's involved has to agree in order
to impose a sanction that would cut someone out, and
it's considered a really drastic action. You know, the only
places we've cut from Swift or Iran, so that's not
something to do very often. Um. But we saw that
(05:42):
over the weekend more European allies that were originally unwilling
to do so now coming on board saying they think
some limits, not all limits, but some limits. So some
of the banks in Russia would be limited, um, from
using Swift, and that would really make it difficult, as
you said, for them to move money around, for them
to access money. We operate in a global financial system,
(06:03):
so UM, cutting a nation are some banks in a
nation off from Swift would be immediately noticed by the
people of that country. You know. This is kind of
an old school power grab land grab type of move
from Russia trying to invade Ukraine here, and it's making
a lot of other Eastern European countries pretty nervous, most
notably you know, Poland, Lithuania, lot Via, Estonia. You know
(06:27):
where does Putin stop if he succeeds here. That that's
the other big worry. I think a lot of people
thought that the days of a European land war were over. Um,
that war was sort of a gritty, terrorist driven, small
cell driven folks like isis this is a government. This
is the government of a very large country launching this invasion.
(06:48):
And this looks like the wars that we thought were past.
So I think it's making a lot of people nervous.
It's making people nervous in Europe that, um, if Putin
isn't stopped in Ukraine, that he'll feel empowered and he'll
continue to have at West. And I think that's making
people all over the globe they're nervous. We thought the
imperials and conquering was done, and this looks like someone's
trying again. Ginger Gibson Gepity Washington, digital editor at NBC News,
(07:12):
thank you very much for joining us. Thanks for having
me to try to be accommodating you know, you try
to work with your people, not be overbearing, And I
think the hope a lot of CEOs have is that
their company culture will be so magnetic that people would
(07:33):
just kind of come back voluntarily without a mandate, And
what they're waking up to right now is that's not happening.
Joining us now is Callum Borschers on the Clock columnists
at the Wall Street Journal. Thanks for joining us, Callum,
so glad to be with you. I want to talk
about this interesting thing that's ongoing, obviously throughout the pandemic
and returning back to work. People just simply do not
(07:55):
want to go back to the office. Obviously, this is
a story for those that are lucky enough to be
able to do remote work, as many are not, but
they find themselves really not wanting to go back. It
doesn't really seem to be that it's all about COVID.
We're seeing cases dropped. They've just found working at home
so much better for them their personal lives. And you've
(08:16):
talked to a couple of business people and them trying
to make really great accommodations at the office, and people
still just not want to go back. So Callum, tell
us a little more about it. Yeah, well, that's such
a great point that you made at the very end there.
I'll give you an example. I talked to the president
of a sports marketing firm in Chicago called Revolution, and
I mean, this is like a dream office. If you
(08:37):
had to show up, this is where I want to be.
I mean, you step off the elevator, picture this, and
then you walk through a tunnel into the lobby as
if you were an athlete, you know, coming out of
the locker room into an arena. And they got bleachers
and a scoreboard. They got a full size Formula one
race car. I mean, this is a cool office. And
then to boot at the end of the day, they've
got an office bar stocked with free beer and bourbon.
(08:58):
I mean, how do you top this? And yet even
they can only get people to come in two maybe
three days a week. You know, much of the staff
still prefers to be home most of the time. And
and the boss over there says, hey, you know, honestly,
it's kind of frustrating. You do everything you can do.
You try to be accommodating, you know, you try to
to work with your people, not be overbearing. And I
(09:18):
think the hope a lot of CEOs have is that
their company culture will be so magnetic that people would
just kind of come back voluntarily without a mandate. And
what they're waking up to right now is that's not happening.
The President Revolution that you spoke to said people still
aren't comfortable coming back. And the question I had right,
we're seeing case rates drop from COVID, and are they
(09:39):
just not comfortable coming back or are they too comfortable
at home? That's an important distinction, you know, he says.
People are saying, oh, I'm not quite comfortable coming back.
But I think a lot of CEOs should sort of
smell something fishy in that, because there they can look
out into the world and and as some told me,
you know, look, I I see sports arenas that are full,
I see restaurant, I see people flying on airplanes. I
(10:02):
scroll Instagram, and I see my employees taking vacations. So
they're comfortable getting out and about. That's not to dismiss
COVID fears. Many people still do have them. A lot
of folks, including myself, you know, have very young children
who can't be vaccinated, and they remain very cautious. But
you're right, you know, the latest research from the Pew
Research Center clearly shows that six in ten workers at
(10:24):
this point who who are working from home are doing
so by choice. And then within that group, three quarters
say it they're at home just because they simply prefer
to be at home. So so that's really what's going
on here. For a lot of folks, Big Banks, Goldman, Sachs,
tech giants, Microsoft, Meta Platforms, formerly Facebook, they were planning
(10:44):
for March returns to the office and just you know,
had this statin here nationwide. You know, office occupancy rates
are hovering about one third, So even the big guys
are having a trouble, having trouble getting people back. You know.
I talked with a software engineer, for example, to New
York City, made a great living, but didn't want to
get back on the subway, you know, two hours round
(11:05):
trip every day. So he was willing to take a
pay cut, quit that job, take a remote gig. He
up and moved his family to Puerto Rico, where the
cost of living is lower and the weather is watch
much much better, and you know, so in other words,
he was willing to make less for the remote flexibility.
I spoke with another worker in upstate New York who's
in her early sixties, didn't really plan to retire, but
(11:28):
once she was sent home in March, threw herself into
new activities. She got she got a puppy, she took
up across country skiing and gardening, really developed a new
lifestyle that she loved. And then when the company was
going to call her back to the office last summer,
she said, forget it. I'd rather retire early than then
go back. So I think that what's happening here. I
think a lot of employers think, well, I'm going to
(11:48):
call my workers bluff right when when push comes to shove,
they'll come back. They won't actually take a pay cut,
or they won't actually quit and retire. That's true for some,
but but some are following through. They are quitting or
they are tiring. You spoke to another president of a
company of automatic payroll systems in Louisiana. He said, it
kind of stings. It hurt a little bit because he
(12:09):
made an investment in his people. They made those plans
through the thickest part of the pandemic to make sure
that they still have jobs, and then another opportunity remote work,
and they just kind of up and left. So he
even feels this thing of that is that you know
that there was no loyalty. You know, it kind of
continues on what I'm talking about. You know, there's been
this great reshuffling of the work culture through this. This
(12:31):
is one of the other layers of the workplace development, right,
is that there are a lot of companies, in part
because they were able to get those paycheck protection loans
from the federal government, but they made a real effort
to keep workers employed. A lot of people did lose
their jobs, but many folks kept their jobs. And so
the company you're talking about is this payroll software company
in Shreveport, Louisiana. And and and you're right, Aaron Johnson,
(12:55):
the CEO down there, it says, you know, honestly, it's
it does. It stings a little bit because you know,
we stood by these workers. We we did what we
had to do to make sure that nobody lost their
job when the economy was at its worst. And then
we get to know the other end and we say, okay,
now it's time to come back. Not even full time.
He's asking for three days a week in the office.
And he told me he lost thirty percent of the
(13:16):
staff last year, largely because folks were taking remote gigs
with with you know, firms in California, New York, Texas,
places that would pay them more but would allow them
to stay in lower cost Louisiana. Callum Borchers on the
Clock columnist at the Wall Street Journal, thank you very
much for joining us. It was a pleasure. Thanks for
(13:38):
having me. There have been people on it since two
thousand doing research, and it's just it's big, and it
takes a lot of maintenance, and it costs a lot
of money, and it's just not gonna last for happen.
Joining us now is Amanda Shoepack, contributor to The Daily Beast.
(13:59):
Thanks for joining us, Amanda, thanks for having me. I
wanted to talk about this interesting uh A story. The
days of the International Space Station could be limited. It
seems that NASA is planning on retiring this research station
that we have in a low Earth orbit by one
possibly and then uh you know, to the point of
your article, the race to succeed that who you know
(14:22):
what will be the next big space station that will
have that researchers and scientists can use and perform experiments
all that. It's very interesting. So Amanda help us walk
through some of this. What's going on with the space station?
Why are we getting rid of it? Well, we're talking
a little bit because it's old. We're already going on
a quarter century of having it up in space, and
(14:42):
there have been people on it since two thousand doing research,
and it's just it's big, and it takes a lot
of maintenance, and it costs a lot of money, and
it's just not gonna last forever. I guess they're just
gonna slowly lower it back to Earth and let it
crash into the water sometime. I think in late maybe
it's in one And that's, by the way, assuming the
(15:04):
station even makes it that long. They start to sort
of slowly decrease the altitude over the course of a
couple of months, and at some point gravity basically takes
over and pulls it in and it ends up crashing
into the middle of the Pacific Ocean in this area
that basically like a spacecraft cemetery. So what happens next.
(15:25):
We're hoping that the private sector are the ones that
are going to be creating these next space stations, and
there's already kind of some movement on all of that,
and you know, NASA is going to be basically renting
space on a lot of these spots, and you know,
hopefully other countries and stuffal will do so also. But
tell me about that whole process, you know what's next. So, yeah,
(15:47):
NASA is basically going to be handing over the reins
to private industry um and we're seeing that paradigm play
out already in private companies doing missions into space, and
this is kind of a now full evolution of that perhaps.
But to make sure that NASA always has a place
to go, a place to work, they're making sure that
(16:08):
companies are invested in creating new space station So they're
funding some of the design work to go into creating
new stations and basically saying, save us a spot that
when you get it up there, we have a place
to send our astronauts to do research. Tell me about
Axiom Space. Houston's Axiom Space, because they seem like the
(16:29):
furthest along in this. They're gonna launch a civilian mission
to the International Space Station and eventually they're going to
attach a module to the International Space Station and detach eventually,
which would be kind of that first replacement space station
kind of thing. So Axiom has the inside track because
in I think it was they made an agreement with
(16:51):
NASA to create the first modules, privately funded, privately manufactured
modules that will connect to the International Space Station, and
then the longer term plan is that when the space
station is retired, those modules will disconnect from the space
station and they will be the first free flying commercial
space destinations in history. You know, there's a lot of
(17:14):
brochures things going around. I think the Orbital Reef space
Station is kind of another concept, and you know, a
lot of the marketing data for this really makes it
seem pretty splashy. You know, they're positioning it as places
that people can visit, live and work. So there's a
lot of big ideas going on for that and kind
of continue on this front, right what happens next. So
(17:35):
some people say, you know, maybe nothing will happen, Maybe
there won't be enough will to kind of continue out
in the space arena. That way, a lot of the business,
initial business stuff, maybe the axiom space stuff, you know,
will be looking back at Earth offering a sellable data
things like deforestation, climate change, land use, um. So even
going into space, we're gonna be looking back at our
(17:57):
own selves. Depending on who you speak to, their different
views of where things are most likely to go. And
I think that there is an appetite for commercial industry
in low Earth orbit, so we're probably going to see something.
The question is how far is that going to extend
and what are we going to see? So one expert
that I spoke to for the article, basically it was like,
(18:18):
why are we even bothering with lower Earth orbit? It's boring,
Let's go to Mars, let's go to the Moon, let's
stop circling our own Earth. And he's got a point.
But I think that there's something really attractive about low
Earth orbit and it's something we can actually do, whereas
we cannot go to Mars yet. And then if we
do end up creating some sort of a commercial market
(18:40):
space for humans in low Earth orbit, what are we
going to be doing with it? And so another expert
I spoke to said, well, chances are we're going to
be using a lot of that infrastructure that gets created
to look backwards onto ourselves and to use that as
advantage point for monitoring what's going on here on Earth.
But then w they're out, maybe space tourism is really
(19:02):
going to happen maybe there are adventure tourists out there
with defa enough pockets who will want to hit your
rides of space and stay in a Philippe Stark designed
hotel room for three days before coming home. That's not
out of the question. Amanda's Shoe Pack contributor to The
Daily Beast. Thank you very much for joining us. Thank you.
(19:30):
That's it for today. Join us on social media at
Daily Dive Pod on both Twitter and Instagram. Leave us
a comic, give us a rating, and tell us the
stories that you're interested in. Follow us and I Heart Radio,
or subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. This episode of
The Daily Dive was produced by Victor Wright and engineered
by Tony Sarrantino. Hi'm Oscar Ramirez and this was your
(19:52):
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