June 4, 2026 • 23 mins
Jill Ellis has seen soccer from every angle: as an elite player, as the two-time World Cup champion coach of the U.S. Women’s National Team and as an NWSL team president. She is bringing this expertise to FIFA as the organization’s first Chief Football Officer. As one of the chief architects of the global game, she is the ultimate World Cup insider.
In this episode of The Deal, Jill tells Jason and Alex what is worrying and exciting her leading up to the kick off of the 2026 World Cup on June 11th (yes, we talk about ticket prices). She shares some facts and figures around what FIFA is expecting in terms of viewership and revenue. Jill also has her eye toward next summer’s Women’s World Cup in Brazil, telling us about a monumental deal with Netflix and why she is anticipating unprecedented interest in the event.
You can also watch this interview on YouTube.
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
If Jason and I wanted to make an investment of soccer,
what's your pitch.
Speaker 3 (00:12):
Well, I think it's the truly global sport. I mean,
right now we're in China negotiating broadcast deals for China
in terms of revenue, so for the Women's World Cup,
it'll be a billion in revenue for next summer, and
for the Men's World Cup, you're probably talking up with
a four to six billion, I would say in that range.
So yeah, I mean the numbers are big, but those
are the numbers that go back into the sport.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
Welcome back to the deal.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
I'm Jason Kelly and I'm Alex Rodriguez.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
All right, Alex coming up on the show. Jill Ellis.
She is the Chief Football Officer of FIFA, meaning she's
one of the chief architects of the global game of soccer. Also,
not for nothing, she won a couple of World Cups
in twenty fifteen and twenty nineteen as the head of
the US women's national team. The World Cup even if
you wanted to escape it, you couldn't.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
And I haven't said I'm done in Miami. I mean
it is everywhere and I cannot wait to dive into
the numbers of what FIFA represents.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
And all eyes are going to be what happens next
in the business of soccer coming up? Jillellus Jill ellis
FIFA's chief Football Officer. You know, Alex, we'd love to
make this show timely. What is more timely than talking
to the chief Football Officer of FIFA on the eve
of the World Cup. So let's start there. How are
(01:31):
you feeling about this World Cup?
Speaker 3 (01:33):
I mean excited. I think the what I've learned over time,
you know, whether either competing in them or watching them,
is there's always a lot of controversy. It always feels
like a three ring circus kind of getting into there,
but once the games kick off, it's it's magical. So excited. Obviously,
I'm from the US, so it's exciting to have a
World Cup back here on the shores of America. So
I think it's going to be brilliant.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
You're feeling it done in Miami, are you?
Speaker 2 (01:56):
Oh, there's no doubt. I mean, I think for the
first time Joe I was born New York, I've been
in Miami. I'm on forty plus years, and I think
soccer right now could be the number one, if not
the number one sport, the number one kind of conversation
and narrative around. I mean, you have Beckham, you have
MESSI of the Championship, and there's so many people some
a melting pot, and I guess my question to you,
(02:18):
I obviously, FIFA, I'll be throwing the coin flip flipp,
but sell me in the sport, Like if it was
an investment. Obviously, I'm into women's sports with a W
I'm into men's sports of the NBA team with the Wolves.
If Jason and I wanted to make an investment a soccer,
what's your pitch.
Speaker 3 (02:34):
Well, I think it's the truly global sport. I mean
you always hear obviously you've got American football, baseball, but
it's played everywhere, so I think you've got an immediate
global audience. There's not a bigger audience for it than
obviously the World Cup. I mean even the Women's World
Cup two billion viewers in twenty three so you've got
probably the most global sport out there. And in the
US it's trending. I mean, I think it's becoming probably
(02:55):
the largest participation sport with amongst youth, so you've now
got a whole generation of people playing it. You've got
established professional leagues here, I mean thirty plus teams in
the MLS, obviously the women's league, so it's not just
emerging anymore. It's very much here. There's a baked in
fan base. You've got an educated fan base. Now you've
had success, you know, obviously the women's team's had a
(03:15):
lot of success on the global stage. Listen, I think
it's a count miss sport, and I think people that
are engaging in sport, and especially in America where we
make it something that is count miss. It's such an
exciting sport. I mean, there's nothing like the last five
minutes of a soccer game.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
You mentioned Jill, the three ring circuits of it all,
and I mean it may be a twelve ring circus
at this point in this lead up, we're talking to
you just a few weeks before it all kicks off,
and everybody's talking about something I've recently talked with your
colleague Johnny and Vintino about ticket prices. People are worried
about visas, people are worried about who's going to play.
(03:53):
Like from your job perspective, like what do you worry
about in this tense lead up to the matches actually
getting played.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
I mean, I certainly think it's you know, you want
to have full stadiums. Safety is always something when you
think about massive global events that you want to make
sure that those things are in place. But ultimately it's
getting the teams here, getting the stars here once.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
You know.
Speaker 3 (04:14):
Again, we had the Club World Cup last summer and
there was a lot of debate and controversy about is
this the right event. As soon as the matches kick off,
the fans are in the stads, people gravitate towards that
and it plays out. And I think that's as a
former coach as well, you also know there's always the
anticipation for that first whistle, that first moment, and then
once it happens, I think people settle into it. But
(04:36):
you know, I think one of the things that people
have talked about about this World Cup is we now
got forty eight teams. It's the largest World Cup ever.
It's going to be you know, countries debutantes here, It'll
be you know, are the games going to be competitive?
And I think that's going back to my early comment
about this sport being truly global is yes. I think
on any given day you're going to see, you know,
one of the minnos beat the giants. And that's kind
(04:56):
of what the exciting thing about this sport is. You've
got such a not the whole world really participating.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
Give us an idea of some of the numbers as
far as how many people around the world would watch
these events, like the last two Championship Games for example, yep.
And what kind of revenue would you say it generates?
Speaker 3 (05:16):
Well, I think the last World Cup, and obviously that
was Katar I think it was five billion globally. The
Women's World Cup two.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
Billion, five billion, yep.
Speaker 3 (05:23):
We five billion people, yep. The Women's World Cup in
twenty three was two billion. We're projecting, you know, two
point five to three billion. I mean, you know it's broadcast.
I mean right now we're in China negotiating broadcast deals
for China. You know, the whole world really tunes in
in terms of revenue. So for the Women's World Cup,
we're projecting this will be a five hundred million dollar increase.
(05:43):
It'll be a billion in revenue for next summer in
twenty twenty seven, and for the Men's World Cup. You're
probably talking up with a four to six billion, I
would say in that rain, So yeah, I mean the
numbers are big, but those are the numbers that go
back into the sport.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
You know.
Speaker 3 (05:57):
For example, we give FIFA gives every participating country that's
two hundred and eleven. They get FEFA forward money, so
the money gets redistributed back into the investment of the sport.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
Jason, I have a question for you. I mean, you're
the business person expert here. When you hear Jo say
numbers like a billion for the women, five billion, what
is the comp that you've seen?
Speaker 1 (06:27):
There is no comp I mean, that's the thing is
there is no comp And one of the interesting things
Jill that as I've dug into this and spending time
with Johnny on this topic, is there is so much
anticipation around this World Cup in North America because of
the scale of it. And you know, one of the
things and I would love to talk a little bit
about accessibility and ticket prices because I asked Johnny this
(06:51):
question and he gave me a statistic which You've got
to keep me honest here, Jill when I repeat it,
which is this is going to blow your mind. The
previous two World Cups, you know, request tickets, and there
were fifty million ticket requests for the last two combined
for this one World Cup this one that's coming up
five hundred million ticket requests, so ten x the last two.
(07:15):
So I guess my question to you, Jill on that is,
with that sort of demand, how do you manage the supply? Like,
what are the conversations you guys have inside of FIFA
because you have to manage the economics completely differently with
that sort of demand.
Speaker 3 (07:31):
Well, you know, in fairness, there's a whole team that
manages this event, right, so we have a whole team
behind it. But you know, the dynamic ticket pricing is
very real, you know. I think that's the other thing.
FIFA's been taking a lot of hits about the ticket pricing,
but the reality is the demand is so big that
you know, and you can't control all of the resale
and all these types of things, but you know, internally
(07:51):
it's they have to keep a lot back obviously for partners.
How do you eke it out? How do you make
sure that the demand is there? I mean, we still
got certain games that I think I think we're trying
to push and to sell. But they I mean they
have a whole branch of ticketing experts that go in
there and look at everything. I mean even when you
map out where you want teams to play, right, who
do you want in what venue? I mean we're doing
(08:12):
this currently right now with the Women's World Cup. We
haven't released the schedule because we're looking at the size
of the stadiums. Where do you want teams playing to
maximize revenue. So yeah, this strategy happens years in advance
for sure.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
That sort of demand, I'm turning this back on you.
I mean, can you fathom that sort of demand? I mean,
you have a couple pretty popular teams, but like that level,
it's hard to fathom.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
I wish I can only dream.
Speaker 3 (08:38):
Well, and we're getting hit for you know, ticket prices.
But you're right, I mean the demand is so high
that it drives the market.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
And so with that sort of demand, Jill, one of
the things that comes to mind for me is how
do you factor that in on the sporting side, whether
it is thinking about the matchups, thinking about which teams
and which countries are going to be the dominant story line,
how do you maximize that as a business how do
you lean into it. On the sporting.
Speaker 3 (09:04):
Side, well, it's certainly I mean, you know we're playing
in massive stadiums. But if you look next summer in Brazil,
there's sixty seventy thousand seat stadiums, I mean, which for
the women's game is massive and it's a heavy lift.
So it's exactly that, it's who do you want playing where?
Obviously there's not ultimate control because it's a draw and
it's a random draw. But in terms of where teams play,
(09:24):
making sure that you know a South Korea is playing
in La you know they've got an amazing player there
in the sun, and so making sure they're on the
West coast, and so it's looking at location, population and
obviously general interest. I mean, you know a team. So
for example, last summer, it didn't matter where you put
Real Madrid. Real Madrid will sell out on my club
World Cup kid cover anywhere. And there's certain teams, I mean,
Colombia has a phenomenal every time you see the US
(09:47):
play Columbia in the US. On the men's side, it's
full of yellow jerseys. Obviously Mexico, we play in Mexico,
but there's I mean, there's just an immense amount, especially
because it's such a melting pot. I mean, there's going
to be large, large following that will travel, you know.
And that's the other thing you think about, what fans
will travel. You know, the Scottish fans will come, they'll travel.
I mean, there's just some amazing fan bases.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
Jason, we have crazy fans in America. Now in Miami,
I'm really feeling it. That's a very European feeling in
Miami now they start parting at six, seven o'clock in
the morning. It's I guess my question is who are
some of the craziest, most rabid fan bases if you
had to say a few.
Speaker 3 (10:24):
Listen, the Latin American market is phenomenal. I mean, you know,
Argentina bring amazing fans, Columbia the same. I mean, I
think those fans, I mean they don't stop the entire game,
moving their arms, singing. I mean, it's it's NonStop. And
that's what's going to be really cool for I think
the US fans to experience is you know, we're kind
of like a golf clapping kind of fan base compared
to compared to the rest of the world, who are
(10:46):
just you know, Rabbid for ninety minutes. But yeah, I
mean the South American fans are brilliant. I mean, listen,
my mom was Scottish, God bless her. Those fans are.
They're crazy. They will be probably starting at six am.
And then you actually add that that because tailgating is
not a thing in Europe the rest of the world.
You now add that you're going to open up potentially
the stadium earlier. I mean, I think it's it's going
to be crazy. They have marches to stadiums. That's really
(11:08):
big things in this world.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
Well, and that entertainment piece. I think you'll appreciate this, Alex.
It is so fascinating to me because and Jill again
keep me honest here, like it does feel like FIFA
as a whole is leaning very much into the sort
of entertainment aspect of sports. I think about what you
guys do in Minnesota, I mean, that's just kind of
(11:32):
table stakes, but soccer, it feels like it's learning a
lot about how to build around the match.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
Is that fair Yeah?
Speaker 3 (11:38):
I mean I listen, we have offices in Miami now,
and you know, in fairness, Johnny's spent a lot of
time now going to American sports. We went to an
Orlando basketball game. You know, the idea of the players
coming out one by one being introduced. We did that
last year in the Club World Cup. So there's a
lot of there's a lot of learnings just that sport
as entertainment, you know, I think is very real. I mean,
you know, last year we were walking around stadiums and
(11:59):
just seeing them a premium hospitality. You don't see that
in Europe. You don't see that in South America in
terms of just space. So I think, you know, we're
learning a lot. You know, hydration breaks that you can
actually commercialize now. I mean, there's all kinds of different things.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
You know.
Speaker 3 (12:12):
One of the things he loved was the fitness cam,
the dance camp. I mean, these are things that in
Europe they're very traditional because the game is the focal
point and nobody gets distracted by anything else Whereas I
think in America we're used to having a show around
the show kind of thing.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
Oh, so I can just a manage the social impact
of social media. The connectivity around the world is just massive,
those numbers, But Jason, I'm also wondering the economic impact
to a city like New York Yeah, those numbers have
to be bonkers. And I'm assuming Joe that those fan base.
We just talked about travel impacts, right yep, travel well.
Speaker 3 (12:45):
Yeah, I mean, Jason, if you don't speak to that,
but no.
Speaker 1 (12:48):
I mean, I think this is one of the big
question marks around this World Cup is we got a
little bit of a preview of it, to your point
from the Club World Cup, some good, some bad, you know,
in terms of like access to the stadiums and you know,
can people get there, can they travel there? You know,
there's been a lot of talk about how much it's
going to cost to get to met life. I mean,
these are the kinks that definitely are being worked out
(13:10):
that probably. I mean, certainly in the last World Cup
and Cutter, you and I were in Doha together and
actually spent some time talking about sort of these mega events.
Everything was very very contained. You could go to multiple
matches in a day in different stadia. Here it's much
more spread out. I think these are big questions that
we actually won't know until the matches really get underway, right.
Speaker 3 (13:32):
Correct, Yeah, I mean I think it's you know again,
I think some events are still selling how much fans
will travel, I mean obviously visa's issues coming into the country.
I think, you know, we're trying to mitigate those as
much as possible, but sometimes people's hesitation. I mean we
saw it last year conker CAF hosted their tournament, and
you know, at the time people were uncertain about going
to the stadiums. But I think the Club World Cup
(13:53):
showed last year that you know, when you get there,
it is a great event. It's a safe event. But
I mean there's nothing quite like coming in seeing you
experience it with the Baseball World Cup countries that national pride,
there really isn't anything quite like it.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
Yeah, it's almost like ten to one to a regular
game or even a playoff game, because for example, in Miami,
I had a very much of a European soccer field
where there was like concerts going on five six hours
before the game, and people were chanting and they had
their flags and it's just a very patriotic theme. That
is it's hard to describe unless you're there. Yep.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
So it's interesting in talking to you, Jill, even to
the past little bit about how fluidly you move in
your job, and obviously based on your experience between the
men's game, and the women's game. It is not at
all hyperbole to say you have been a chief architect
of the women's game globally and certainly in this country.
(14:50):
Where are we in that journey, you know? I mean,
I know we're very focused on the World Cup, the
men's World Cup this summer, but there'll be one next
summer for the women. How would you describe the state
of the women's game.
Speaker 3 (15:04):
I mean, I think it's you know, the signals are
out there right We're seeing attendances go up. I mean
I think the Denver Enderbursel team it was sixty two
thousand and sixty three thousand, So you're seeing a lot
of these amazing signals. You know, the Women's World Cup
next year, and so yes, I straddle both, but obviously
have one eye on next summer as well, because you
know this will be the first. I mean it was
five hundred million. I think they made off of the
(15:25):
last one. Now we're looking at a billion and one
hundred percent of that money will be reinvested in the
women's football, which is huge. But we're also seeing the
ecosystem grow. We're seeing now club championships for global club
championships for women like we have. On the men's side,
we're seeing professional leagues become more stable in terms of attendance, investment,
even internally in FIFA. It used to be everything, and
(15:45):
this was true, and I think in a lot of sports,
you sell the men's game. The WiM's game was an
add on. You sell this, it was an add on.
Now we're unbundling rights. We've just got the most the
highest media deal ever for next Summer's World Cup, where
Netflix is paying for a one month tournament, which is
incredible numbers. So we're suddenly seeing this unbundling on packaging
because I think it can stand alone.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
And so to that point, I've followed the NWSL very
closely for a number of years now, and it was
not that long ago, and you remember, well, I'm sure
that this was a league that was in existential crisis.
You know, the Eighth Report twenty twenty two comes out.
You and a lot of other people were in that report,
and there was a concern that the league wouldn't go on.
(16:38):
What's changed, what has happened in those intervening years that
gives you confidence that women's soccer, and especially women's soccer
in this country is on the right track.
Speaker 3 (16:47):
Well, I think it's you know, it's stability. I mean
we're in our third iteration of a women's professional league,
so the first two failed, so this one has now been.
I think we're in year thirteen. Perhaps you're seeing the
growth of it in terms of teams added. You know,
we went from twelve now we're at sixteen, so you're
just seeing all of the numbers go up in that.
But I think it's just it's the professionalization of the game.
I think at its core, I mean, if you put
(17:09):
the players in the middle of it, it was part
time contracts, it was paying for their own luggage to
get on planes. It was things that just you know,
shouldn't really happen in professional sports. Now you're seeing legitimate
minimum standards imposed. You're seeing facilities being specifically built now
for women's teams, So there's just a lot more stability.
I think there's a lot more attention on it. There's
(17:29):
a lot more regulation of the sport as well in
terms of you know, expectations and like I said, minimum standards.
So I think all of those things attribute to it.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
I can tell you, Jill, when you were speaking, I
was like, wait a minute, is she's speaking about the WNBA.
It was exactly the same playbook and the same traction.
But I was recently at the WNBA draft, Yeah, and
we had the second pick, and I had an opportunity
to speak to a lot of the young women and
I said to a few of them, I said, are
you excited? Is your family happy? She goes, heck, yeah,
(17:59):
I'm a millionaire. I'm going to be a millionaire. And
they said it was such pride and they deserve it.
And I do think that the economic growth in the
compensation is going to recruit other young women to say,
why can't I also plan the WNBA. I want to
be a millionaire.
Speaker 3 (18:14):
What's interesting is, and I don't know how this is saying,
but in women's soccer, women's football, for example, as the
sport is growing and the ecosystem is growing, and the
players for sure are getting more, we're actually seeing less
women in leadership, on coaching and the sidelines. So as
it becomes more economically viable, you're now seeing a lot
of men going into you know, for example, coaching, we
only have I think three head coaches that are female
(18:37):
in the end of Russell. In the Women's Professional League,
in England, I think it's two to three. So we
also have to make sure we're investing not just in
the players, but the pathway for owners, for leadership, for GMS,
for these other roles in women's sports. I think is
a part of that.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
Isn't one of the changes that you made that every
team must have at least one female head coach or
coach assistant.
Speaker 3 (19:00):
Or head coach. Yeah? I mean, and the reality is
you hope these things happen organically, but they haven't. I
mean this in the US Title nine was a game
changer for us in terms of access and opportunity, but
we're seeing less and less women on the sidelines. And
I think this was a passion for Johnny. He's like,
I want every head coach to be female. I'm like,
we're not quite there yet. We've got to make sure
(19:21):
that these these coaches are prepared, that they have experience,
that they have education through coaching licenses. So it's not
just creating the regulation, it's creating a pathway to the regulation.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
I read a quote of yours about your current job
that you said, and again, give me honest here, you
didn't come into this job to protect comfort. You're a
straight talker. What is some straight talk that you've given
to your colleagues at FIFA and to Johnny about growing
the women's game and what FIFA's role can be in
(19:53):
ensuring that in investment terms, these gains are consolidated.
Speaker 3 (19:58):
Well, yeah, I mean, yes, yes, he appreciates the straight talk.
I mean, I just gave a speech to Congress and
basically to the two hundred and eleven presidents of the federations,
just sort of said to them, like, if you don't
invest in women's football, you're missing out. Your countries care
about winning. It's not just to whether it's a gender thing.
It's about winning. So provoking and encouraging people to invest
(20:19):
because you know, and I said in this speech, it's
not an obligation. It shouldn't be an obligation. It should
be something you look at as a viable economic decision
as you move forward. But yeah, I mean just conversations,
you know, looking at how we look at how METEA
rights are framed, you know, pushing, Yes, we've got a
great deal with America, but guess what the rest of
the world should also be paying. So it's everything from
(20:39):
media rights deals to meeting with our Cmo Romi and
pushing and sort of challenging him to sort of say, hey, listen,
this is packaged. How many standalone do we have for
the women's World Cup? So a lot of different conversations
around that, but ultimately it's like what are we doing?
I mean, like the Club World Cup for women, It's
now a real thing. The first iteration will be in
twenty twenty eight. It's important that there's a high standard,
(21:02):
and I've said to them, we've got to have it
in a region. Hopefully it will be here in the
US that we can commercialize it, that we can really
give it what it deserves in terms of access around
the world viewership.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
All Right, we're going to move to our rapid fire
pretty easy.
Speaker 1 (21:15):
We'll bounce it back and forth. I'll start in the
new pick up.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
You ready, I'm ready?
Speaker 1 (21:19):
All right? Favorite World Cup memory as a coach.
Speaker 3 (21:22):
France twenty nineteen quarterfinals.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
Favorite World Cup memory as a fan.
Speaker 3 (21:28):
Qatar last World Cup Final amazing France Argentina classick.
Speaker 1 (21:32):
That was a hell of a match. Storyline. You're most
excited about going into this World Cup?
Speaker 3 (21:38):
Just the debutante's the new teams. I think it's exciting.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
One change to the World Cup you would make tomorrow.
Speaker 3 (21:47):
I would put five hundred tickets aside for kids, just
for kids to come.
Speaker 2 (21:52):
All right, that's a good one.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
Underrated host city for twenty twenty six.
Speaker 3 (21:57):
Ooh god, my wife's from Kansas City, so I can't
say that. I don't think there is one. I think
these cities are going to be amazing.
Speaker 2 (22:04):
Favorite player of all time.
Speaker 3 (22:07):
Ooh hi Maradonna male player Maradonna and women women's player.
I would probably go with.
Speaker 1 (22:13):
MARTA team you'd like to see win a championship more
than any.
Speaker 3 (22:17):
My team since I was seven was Man United, So
I go, we need to get back on top World Cup.
Come on, I want to see the US winning World
Cup Men's World Cup.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
Jill Els, thank you so much. This is really fun.
Speaker 3 (22:29):
Thank you so much. Guys appreciate you. Thank you.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
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(22:57):
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(23:18):
Thanks so much for listening.
Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
If Jason and I wanted to make an investment of soccer,
what's your pitch.
Speaker 3 (00:12):
Well, I think it's the truly global sport. I mean,
right now we're in China negotiating broadcast deals for China
in terms of revenue, so for the Women's World Cup,
it'll be a billion in revenue for next summer, and
for the Men's World Cup, you're probably talking up with
a four to six billion, I would say in that range.
So yeah, I mean the numbers are big, but those
are the numbers that go back into the sport.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
Welcome back to the deal.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
I'm Jason Kelly and I'm Alex Rodriguez.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
All right, Alex coming up on the show. Jill Ellis.
She is the Chief Football Officer of FIFA, meaning she's
one of the chief architects of the global game of soccer. Also,
not for nothing, she won a couple of World Cups
in twenty fifteen and twenty nineteen as the head of
the US women's national team. The World Cup even if
you wanted to escape it, you couldn't.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
And I haven't said I'm done in Miami. I mean
it is everywhere and I cannot wait to dive into
the numbers of what FIFA represents.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
And all eyes are going to be what happens next
in the business of soccer coming up? Jillellus Jill ellis
FIFA's chief Football Officer. You know, Alex, we'd love to
make this show timely. What is more timely than talking
to the chief Football Officer of FIFA on the eve
of the World Cup. So let's start there. How are
(01:31):
you feeling about this World Cup?
Speaker 3 (01:33):
I mean excited. I think the what I've learned over time,
you know, whether either competing in them or watching them,
is there's always a lot of controversy. It always feels
like a three ring circus kind of getting into there,
but once the games kick off, it's it's magical. So excited. Obviously,
I'm from the US, so it's exciting to have a
World Cup back here on the shores of America. So
I think it's going to be brilliant.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
You're feeling it done in Miami, are you?
Speaker 2 (01:56):
Oh, there's no doubt. I mean, I think for the
first time Joe I was born New York, I've been
in Miami. I'm on forty plus years, and I think
soccer right now could be the number one, if not
the number one sport, the number one kind of conversation
and narrative around. I mean, you have Beckham, you have
MESSI of the Championship, and there's so many people some
a melting pot, and I guess my question to you,
(02:18):
I obviously, FIFA, I'll be throwing the coin flip flipp,
but sell me in the sport, Like if it was
an investment. Obviously, I'm into women's sports with a W
I'm into men's sports of the NBA team with the Wolves.
If Jason and I wanted to make an investment a soccer,
what's your pitch.
Speaker 3 (02:34):
Well, I think it's the truly global sport. I mean
you always hear obviously you've got American football, baseball, but
it's played everywhere, so I think you've got an immediate
global audience. There's not a bigger audience for it than
obviously the World Cup. I mean even the Women's World
Cup two billion viewers in twenty three so you've got
probably the most global sport out there. And in the
US it's trending. I mean, I think it's becoming probably
(02:55):
the largest participation sport with amongst youth, so you've now
got a whole generation of people playing it. You've got
established professional leagues here, I mean thirty plus teams in
the MLS, obviously the women's league, so it's not just
emerging anymore. It's very much here. There's a baked in
fan base. You've got an educated fan base. Now you've
had success, you know, obviously the women's team's had a
(03:15):
lot of success on the global stage. Listen, I think
it's a count miss sport, and I think people that
are engaging in sport, and especially in America where we
make it something that is count miss. It's such an
exciting sport. I mean, there's nothing like the last five
minutes of a soccer game.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
You mentioned Jill, the three ring circuits of it all,
and I mean it may be a twelve ring circus
at this point in this lead up, we're talking to
you just a few weeks before it all kicks off,
and everybody's talking about something I've recently talked with your
colleague Johnny and Vintino about ticket prices. People are worried
about visas, people are worried about who's going to play.
(03:53):
Like from your job perspective, like what do you worry
about in this tense lead up to the matches actually
getting played.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
I mean, I certainly think it's you know, you want
to have full stadiums. Safety is always something when you
think about massive global events that you want to make
sure that those things are in place. But ultimately it's
getting the teams here, getting the stars here once.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
You know.
Speaker 3 (04:14):
Again, we had the Club World Cup last summer and
there was a lot of debate and controversy about is
this the right event. As soon as the matches kick off,
the fans are in the stads, people gravitate towards that
and it plays out. And I think that's as a
former coach as well, you also know there's always the
anticipation for that first whistle, that first moment, and then
once it happens, I think people settle into it. But
(04:36):
you know, I think one of the things that people
have talked about about this World Cup is we now
got forty eight teams. It's the largest World Cup ever.
It's going to be you know, countries debutantes here, It'll
be you know, are the games going to be competitive?
And I think that's going back to my early comment
about this sport being truly global is yes. I think
on any given day you're going to see, you know,
one of the minnos beat the giants. And that's kind
(04:56):
of what the exciting thing about this sport is. You've
got such a not the whole world really participating.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
Give us an idea of some of the numbers as
far as how many people around the world would watch
these events, like the last two Championship Games for example, yep.
And what kind of revenue would you say it generates?
Speaker 3 (05:16):
Well, I think the last World Cup, and obviously that
was Katar I think it was five billion globally. The
Women's World Cup two.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
Billion, five billion, yep.
Speaker 3 (05:23):
We five billion people, yep. The Women's World Cup in
twenty three was two billion. We're projecting, you know, two
point five to three billion. I mean, you know it's broadcast.
I mean right now we're in China negotiating broadcast deals
for China. You know, the whole world really tunes in
in terms of revenue. So for the Women's World Cup,
we're projecting this will be a five hundred million dollar increase.
(05:43):
It'll be a billion in revenue for next summer in
twenty twenty seven, and for the Men's World Cup. You're
probably talking up with a four to six billion, I
would say in that rain, So yeah, I mean the
numbers are big, but those are the numbers that go
back into the sport.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
You know.
Speaker 3 (05:57):
For example, we give FIFA gives every participating country that's
two hundred and eleven. They get FEFA forward money, so
the money gets redistributed back into the investment of the sport.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
Jason, I have a question for you. I mean, you're
the business person expert here. When you hear Jo say
numbers like a billion for the women, five billion, what
is the comp that you've seen?
Speaker 1 (06:27):
There is no comp I mean, that's the thing is
there is no comp And one of the interesting things
Jill that as I've dug into this and spending time
with Johnny on this topic, is there is so much
anticipation around this World Cup in North America because of
the scale of it. And you know, one of the
things and I would love to talk a little bit
about accessibility and ticket prices because I asked Johnny this
(06:51):
question and he gave me a statistic which You've got
to keep me honest here, Jill when I repeat it,
which is this is going to blow your mind. The
previous two World Cups, you know, request tickets, and there
were fifty million ticket requests for the last two combined
for this one World Cup this one that's coming up
five hundred million ticket requests, so ten x the last two.
(07:15):
So I guess my question to you, Jill on that is,
with that sort of demand, how do you manage the supply? Like,
what are the conversations you guys have inside of FIFA
because you have to manage the economics completely differently with
that sort of demand.
Speaker 3 (07:31):
Well, you know, in fairness, there's a whole team that
manages this event, right, so we have a whole team
behind it. But you know, the dynamic ticket pricing is
very real, you know. I think that's the other thing.
FIFA's been taking a lot of hits about the ticket pricing,
but the reality is the demand is so big that
you know, and you can't control all of the resale
and all these types of things, but you know, internally
(07:51):
it's they have to keep a lot back obviously for partners.
How do you eke it out? How do you make
sure that the demand is there? I mean, we still
got certain games that I think I think we're trying
to push and to sell. But they I mean they
have a whole branch of ticketing experts that go in
there and look at everything. I mean even when you
map out where you want teams to play, right, who
do you want in what venue? I mean we're doing
(08:12):
this currently right now with the Women's World Cup. We
haven't released the schedule because we're looking at the size
of the stadiums. Where do you want teams playing to
maximize revenue. So yeah, this strategy happens years in advance
for sure.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
That sort of demand, I'm turning this back on you.
I mean, can you fathom that sort of demand? I mean,
you have a couple pretty popular teams, but like that level,
it's hard to fathom.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
I wish I can only dream.
Speaker 3 (08:38):
Well, and we're getting hit for you know, ticket prices.
But you're right, I mean the demand is so high
that it drives the market.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
And so with that sort of demand, Jill, one of
the things that comes to mind for me is how
do you factor that in on the sporting side, whether
it is thinking about the matchups, thinking about which teams
and which countries are going to be the dominant story line,
how do you maximize that as a business how do
you lean into it. On the sporting.
Speaker 3 (09:04):
Side, well, it's certainly I mean, you know we're playing
in massive stadiums. But if you look next summer in Brazil,
there's sixty seventy thousand seat stadiums, I mean, which for
the women's game is massive and it's a heavy lift.
So it's exactly that, it's who do you want playing where?
Obviously there's not ultimate control because it's a draw and
it's a random draw. But in terms of where teams play,
(09:24):
making sure that you know a South Korea is playing
in La you know they've got an amazing player there
in the sun, and so making sure they're on the
West coast, and so it's looking at location, population and
obviously general interest. I mean, you know a team. So
for example, last summer, it didn't matter where you put
Real Madrid. Real Madrid will sell out on my club
World Cup kid cover anywhere. And there's certain teams, I mean,
Colombia has a phenomenal every time you see the US
(09:47):
play Columbia in the US. On the men's side, it's
full of yellow jerseys. Obviously Mexico, we play in Mexico,
but there's I mean, there's just an immense amount, especially
because it's such a melting pot. I mean, there's going
to be large, large following that will travel, you know.
And that's the other thing you think about, what fans
will travel. You know, the Scottish fans will come, they'll travel.
I mean, there's just some amazing fan bases.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
Jason, we have crazy fans in America. Now in Miami,
I'm really feeling it. That's a very European feeling in
Miami now they start parting at six, seven o'clock in
the morning. It's I guess my question is who are
some of the craziest, most rabid fan bases if you
had to say a few.
Speaker 3 (10:24):
Listen, the Latin American market is phenomenal. I mean, you know,
Argentina bring amazing fans, Columbia the same. I mean, I
think those fans, I mean they don't stop the entire game,
moving their arms, singing. I mean, it's it's NonStop. And
that's what's going to be really cool for I think
the US fans to experience is you know, we're kind
of like a golf clapping kind of fan base compared
to compared to the rest of the world, who are
(10:46):
just you know, Rabbid for ninety minutes. But yeah, I
mean the South American fans are brilliant. I mean, listen,
my mom was Scottish, God bless her. Those fans are.
They're crazy. They will be probably starting at six am.
And then you actually add that that because tailgating is
not a thing in Europe the rest of the world.
You now add that you're going to open up potentially
the stadium earlier. I mean, I think it's it's going
to be crazy. They have marches to stadiums. That's really
(11:08):
big things in this world.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
Well, and that entertainment piece. I think you'll appreciate this, Alex.
It is so fascinating to me because and Jill again
keep me honest here, like it does feel like FIFA
as a whole is leaning very much into the sort
of entertainment aspect of sports. I think about what you
guys do in Minnesota, I mean, that's just kind of
(11:32):
table stakes, but soccer, it feels like it's learning a
lot about how to build around the match.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
Is that fair Yeah?
Speaker 3 (11:38):
I mean I listen, we have offices in Miami now,
and you know, in fairness, Johnny's spent a lot of
time now going to American sports. We went to an
Orlando basketball game. You know, the idea of the players
coming out one by one being introduced. We did that
last year in the Club World Cup. So there's a
lot of there's a lot of learnings just that sport
as entertainment, you know, I think is very real. I mean,
you know, last year we were walking around stadiums and
(11:59):
just seeing them a premium hospitality. You don't see that
in Europe. You don't see that in South America in
terms of just space. So I think, you know, we're
learning a lot. You know, hydration breaks that you can
actually commercialize now. I mean, there's all kinds of different things.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
You know.
Speaker 3 (12:12):
One of the things he loved was the fitness cam,
the dance camp. I mean, these are things that in
Europe they're very traditional because the game is the focal
point and nobody gets distracted by anything else Whereas I
think in America we're used to having a show around
the show kind of thing.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
Oh, so I can just a manage the social impact
of social media. The connectivity around the world is just massive,
those numbers, But Jason, I'm also wondering the economic impact
to a city like New York Yeah, those numbers have
to be bonkers. And I'm assuming Joe that those fan base.
We just talked about travel impacts, right yep, travel well.
Speaker 3 (12:45):
Yeah, I mean, Jason, if you don't speak to that,
but no.
Speaker 1 (12:48):
I mean, I think this is one of the big
question marks around this World Cup is we got a
little bit of a preview of it, to your point
from the Club World Cup, some good, some bad, you know,
in terms of like access to the stadiums and you know,
can people get there, can they travel there? You know,
there's been a lot of talk about how much it's
going to cost to get to met life. I mean,
these are the kinks that definitely are being worked out
(13:10):
that probably. I mean, certainly in the last World Cup
and Cutter, you and I were in Doha together and
actually spent some time talking about sort of these mega events.
Everything was very very contained. You could go to multiple
matches in a day in different stadia. Here it's much
more spread out. I think these are big questions that
we actually won't know until the matches really get underway, right.
Speaker 3 (13:32):
Correct, Yeah, I mean I think it's you know again,
I think some events are still selling how much fans
will travel, I mean obviously visa's issues coming into the country.
I think, you know, we're trying to mitigate those as
much as possible, but sometimes people's hesitation. I mean we
saw it last year conker CAF hosted their tournament, and
you know, at the time people were uncertain about going
to the stadiums. But I think the Club World Cup
(13:53):
showed last year that you know, when you get there,
it is a great event. It's a safe event. But
I mean there's nothing quite like coming in seeing you
experience it with the Baseball World Cup countries that national pride,
there really isn't anything quite like it.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
Yeah, it's almost like ten to one to a regular
game or even a playoff game, because for example, in Miami,
I had a very much of a European soccer field
where there was like concerts going on five six hours
before the game, and people were chanting and they had
their flags and it's just a very patriotic theme. That
is it's hard to describe unless you're there. Yep.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
So it's interesting in talking to you, Jill, even to
the past little bit about how fluidly you move in
your job, and obviously based on your experience between the
men's game, and the women's game. It is not at
all hyperbole to say you have been a chief architect
of the women's game globally and certainly in this country.
(14:50):
Where are we in that journey, you know? I mean,
I know we're very focused on the World Cup, the
men's World Cup this summer, but there'll be one next
summer for the women. How would you describe the state
of the women's game.
Speaker 3 (15:04):
I mean, I think it's you know, the signals are
out there right We're seeing attendances go up. I mean
I think the Denver Enderbursel team it was sixty two
thousand and sixty three thousand, So you're seeing a lot
of these amazing signals. You know, the Women's World Cup
next year, and so yes, I straddle both, but obviously
have one eye on next summer as well, because you
know this will be the first. I mean it was
five hundred million. I think they made off of the
(15:25):
last one. Now we're looking at a billion and one
hundred percent of that money will be reinvested in the
women's football, which is huge. But we're also seeing the
ecosystem grow. We're seeing now club championships for global club
championships for women like we have. On the men's side,
we're seeing professional leagues become more stable in terms of attendance, investment,
even internally in FIFA. It used to be everything, and
(15:45):
this was true, and I think in a lot of sports,
you sell the men's game. The WiM's game was an
add on. You sell this, it was an add on.
Now we're unbundling rights. We've just got the most the
highest media deal ever for next Summer's World Cup, where
Netflix is paying for a one month tournament, which is
incredible numbers. So we're suddenly seeing this unbundling on packaging
because I think it can stand alone.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
And so to that point, I've followed the NWSL very
closely for a number of years now, and it was
not that long ago, and you remember, well, I'm sure
that this was a league that was in existential crisis.
You know, the Eighth Report twenty twenty two comes out.
You and a lot of other people were in that report,
and there was a concern that the league wouldn't go on.
(16:38):
What's changed, what has happened in those intervening years that
gives you confidence that women's soccer, and especially women's soccer
in this country is on the right track.
Speaker 3 (16:47):
Well, I think it's you know, it's stability. I mean
we're in our third iteration of a women's professional league,
so the first two failed, so this one has now been.
I think we're in year thirteen. Perhaps you're seeing the
growth of it in terms of teams added. You know,
we went from twelve now we're at sixteen, so you're
just seeing all of the numbers go up in that.
But I think it's just it's the professionalization of the game.
I think at its core, I mean, if you put
(17:09):
the players in the middle of it, it was part
time contracts, it was paying for their own luggage to
get on planes. It was things that just you know,
shouldn't really happen in professional sports. Now you're seeing legitimate
minimum standards imposed. You're seeing facilities being specifically built now
for women's teams, So there's just a lot more stability.
I think there's a lot more attention on it. There's
(17:29):
a lot more regulation of the sport as well in
terms of you know, expectations and like I said, minimum standards.
So I think all of those things attribute to it.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
I can tell you, Jill, when you were speaking, I
was like, wait a minute, is she's speaking about the WNBA.
It was exactly the same playbook and the same traction.
But I was recently at the WNBA draft, Yeah, and
we had the second pick, and I had an opportunity
to speak to a lot of the young women and
I said to a few of them, I said, are
you excited? Is your family happy? She goes, heck, yeah,
(17:59):
I'm a millionaire. I'm going to be a millionaire. And
they said it was such pride and they deserve it.
And I do think that the economic growth in the
compensation is going to recruit other young women to say,
why can't I also plan the WNBA. I want to
be a millionaire.
Speaker 3 (18:14):
What's interesting is, and I don't know how this is saying,
but in women's soccer, women's football, for example, as the
sport is growing and the ecosystem is growing, and the
players for sure are getting more, we're actually seeing less
women in leadership, on coaching and the sidelines. So as
it becomes more economically viable, you're now seeing a lot
of men going into you know, for example, coaching, we
only have I think three head coaches that are female
(18:37):
in the end of Russell. In the Women's Professional League,
in England, I think it's two to three. So we
also have to make sure we're investing not just in
the players, but the pathway for owners, for leadership, for GMS,
for these other roles in women's sports. I think is
a part of that.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
Isn't one of the changes that you made that every
team must have at least one female head coach or
coach assistant.
Speaker 3 (19:00):
Or head coach. Yeah? I mean, and the reality is
you hope these things happen organically, but they haven't. I
mean this in the US Title nine was a game
changer for us in terms of access and opportunity, but
we're seeing less and less women on the sidelines. And
I think this was a passion for Johnny. He's like,
I want every head coach to be female. I'm like,
we're not quite there yet. We've got to make sure
(19:21):
that these these coaches are prepared, that they have experience,
that they have education through coaching licenses. So it's not
just creating the regulation, it's creating a pathway to the regulation.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
I read a quote of yours about your current job
that you said, and again, give me honest here, you
didn't come into this job to protect comfort. You're a
straight talker. What is some straight talk that you've given
to your colleagues at FIFA and to Johnny about growing
the women's game and what FIFA's role can be in
(19:53):
ensuring that in investment terms, these gains are consolidated.
Speaker 3 (19:58):
Well, yeah, I mean, yes, yes, he appreciates the straight talk.
I mean, I just gave a speech to Congress and
basically to the two hundred and eleven presidents of the federations,
just sort of said to them, like, if you don't
invest in women's football, you're missing out. Your countries care
about winning. It's not just to whether it's a gender thing.
It's about winning. So provoking and encouraging people to invest
(20:19):
because you know, and I said in this speech, it's
not an obligation. It shouldn't be an obligation. It should
be something you look at as a viable economic decision
as you move forward. But yeah, I mean just conversations,
you know, looking at how we look at how METEA
rights are framed, you know, pushing, Yes, we've got a
great deal with America, but guess what the rest of
the world should also be paying. So it's everything from
(20:39):
media rights deals to meeting with our Cmo Romi and
pushing and sort of challenging him to sort of say, hey, listen,
this is packaged. How many standalone do we have for
the women's World Cup? So a lot of different conversations
around that, but ultimately it's like what are we doing?
I mean, like the Club World Cup for women, It's
now a real thing. The first iteration will be in
twenty twenty eight. It's important that there's a high standard,
(21:02):
and I've said to them, we've got to have it
in a region. Hopefully it will be here in the
US that we can commercialize it, that we can really
give it what it deserves in terms of access around
the world viewership.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
All Right, we're going to move to our rapid fire
pretty easy.
Speaker 1 (21:15):
We'll bounce it back and forth. I'll start in the
new pick up.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
You ready, I'm ready?
Speaker 1 (21:19):
All right? Favorite World Cup memory as a coach.
Speaker 3 (21:22):
France twenty nineteen quarterfinals.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
Favorite World Cup memory as a fan.
Speaker 3 (21:28):
Qatar last World Cup Final amazing France Argentina classick.
Speaker 1 (21:32):
That was a hell of a match. Storyline. You're most
excited about going into this World Cup?
Speaker 3 (21:38):
Just the debutante's the new teams. I think it's exciting.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
One change to the World Cup you would make tomorrow.
Speaker 3 (21:47):
I would put five hundred tickets aside for kids, just
for kids to come.
Speaker 2 (21:52):
All right, that's a good one.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
Underrated host city for twenty twenty six.
Speaker 3 (21:57):
Ooh god, my wife's from Kansas City, so I can't
say that. I don't think there is one. I think
these cities are going to be amazing.
Speaker 2 (22:04):
Favorite player of all time.
Speaker 3 (22:07):
Ooh hi Maradonna male player Maradonna and women women's player.
I would probably go with.
Speaker 1 (22:13):
MARTA team you'd like to see win a championship more
than any.
Speaker 3 (22:17):
My team since I was seven was Man United, So
I go, we need to get back on top World Cup.
Come on, I want to see the US winning World
Cup Men's World Cup.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
Jill Els, thank you so much. This is really fun.
Speaker 3 (22:29):
Thank you so much. Guys appreciate you. Thank you.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
The Deal's production from Bloomberg Podcasts and Bloomberg Originals. The
Deals hosted by Alice Rodriguez and me Jason Kelly. Shows
produced by Alexis HoTT, Stacy Wong, and Anna Mazarakis. Original
music and engineering by Blake Maples, Booking by Paige Keffer.
Our managing editor is David Rivella. Our executive producers are
(22:57):
Jason Kelly Amy, Keane Nevil, Jele Trey Shallowhorn, Regina Daleya,
Kelly Leferrier, and Ashley Zingaro. Special thanks to Rachel Carnivale,
Elena Los Angeles and Nick Silva. You can also watch
The Deal on Bloomberg Originals YouTube and Bloomberg Television, and
please subscribe to the Deal wherever you get your podcasts.
(23:18):
Thanks so much for listening.
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