June 11, 2026 • 35 mins
It’s the first day of the 2026 World Cup! Ticket prices, transportation, security, visas, Attorneys General investigations and water bottles are just a few of the issues threatening to distract from the play on the pitch. Now that it's time for the football to actually be played, we will finally get some answers to the biggest outstanding questions: Will FIFA’s controversial ticketing strategy mean empty seats? Will host cities actually make back their investment? Will the legacy of this World Cup be its challenges or its triumphs?
Athletic Senior Writer Henry Bushnell joins The Dealto discuss all the above and more. Henry tells Alex and Jason how FIFA may have misjudged the American market. He also shares his thoughts on why the MLS has already missed the moment to capitalize on this summer’s soccer momentum, which American city will “win” the tournament and how the 2026 World Cup will be remembered.
Want more World Cup? Tune in to Bloomberg's Big Take episode Who's Really Paying for the World Cup?
You can also watch this interview on YouTube.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Listen
Watch
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, Radio News.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Welcome back to the Deal.
Speaker 3 (00:13):
I'm Jason Kelly alongside my partner Alex Rodriguez.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
All right, Alex, First of all, how you doing. I have?
Speaker 3 (00:20):
I feel like I haven't seen you in forever. You know,
We've got episodes rolling out, but we haven't been together
for a while. I don't know.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
I miss you, man, like what's happening.
Speaker 4 (00:28):
I always miss you, and every time we don't see
each other, it feels like my brother from another mother's
wake on somewhere.
Speaker 5 (00:34):
But you're busy. I'm busy. But here's the good news.
Speaker 4 (00:37):
I'm gonna be spending a lot of time in New
York over the next few months, and I get to
see you in a couple of days.
Speaker 3 (00:43):
Yeah, exactly, We're gonna We're gonna be hanging out in
New York a little bit. I mean in part because listen,
I gotta tell you, and you've seen it. You're at
one of the conference final games. New York's pretty occupied
right now with the NBA Finals. It will talk a
little bit more about it, but as the series goes on.
(01:06):
But listen, the Knicks, and with all apologies to the
team that made you a fortunate and very famous. The
Yankees are nothing compared to the Knicks when it comes
to just electrifying New York.
Speaker 5 (01:19):
City right now, You're absolutely right.
Speaker 4 (01:22):
And the thing about it is, and I'll give Michael
Kay credit for this, the voice of the New York Yankees.
Speaker 5 (01:27):
He said, the Knicks, and it's so true.
Speaker 4 (01:30):
Is the one team of the many teams in New
York City that unites the whole city. Yeah, when the
Yankees are winning, the Mets fans are pissed off.
Speaker 5 (01:38):
Vice versa.
Speaker 4 (01:38):
When the Mets are winning, the Yankee fans island. There's
Rangers jet.
Speaker 3 (01:42):
That's a horrible that when you say the Mets when
the Mets are winning, because that hasn't happened and it
feels like centuries go on.
Speaker 5 (01:48):
But with the.
Speaker 4 (01:49):
Knicks, is like the whole city is behind them and
is the only team of the many, many teams that
are in New York that sits right in the center
of the greatest city in the world Square Garden.
Speaker 5 (02:00):
Who may be the biggest star of the franchise.
Speaker 3 (02:04):
Yeah, I know, totally true. It's the world's most famous
arena for a reason. I mean, it's also such an
amazing time to be in sports. Because we're in the
depths of the baseball season. I got to tell you,
I'm loving what's happening down at Truest with the Atlanta Braves.
They are on fire. I mean, and I have to say,
I was thinking back you predicted this, you said the
(02:25):
Braves have all the pieces put together.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
And when we get together next week, we're.
Speaker 3 (02:31):
Going to when we get together soon, we're going to
talk more about you know, your thoughts on baseball. But
looming over all of this is negotiations that are happening
around the Collective Bargaining Agreement. It expires us toward the
end of this year. What are you hearing from people
that you're talking to on all sides of the table.
(02:51):
What's the state of play for CBA negotiations?
Speaker 4 (02:54):
Yeah, Jason, and I've had as being a member of
the union for almost twenty five years, I have a
lot of experience. Obviously going back to Don Fear, who's
ahead of the union uh and Gene Orza than Michael
Wiener he passed, and of course Tony Clark. And today
you have a new regime which is challenging from a
timing perspective.
Speaker 5 (03:13):
Leadership of the Union. On the other side, you have.
Speaker 4 (03:16):
Rob Manford and Dan Halem leading working for the for
the league and the owners. And I've spoken to dozens
and dozens of people from both sides of the aisle,
and that's what it reminds me of is a political
race whether red and blue are screaming at each other,
but no one's listening to each other, and they both
think they're one hundred percent right. And just going back
a little history, when the word salary cap comes to,
(03:41):
you know, fruition or even if it's even introduced, it's
almost like, uh, you know, China, Russia having you know,
nuclear bombs point of the United States.
Speaker 5 (03:51):
That's how triggering it is of a word for the Union.
Speaker 4 (03:56):
And you're seeing that right now they're so far apart
and now they're starting to play in the media game,
and it's just going to escalate from here.
Speaker 3 (04:02):
And so it seems like from what Commission Manfred has said,
a lockout or a walkout is inevitable at this point,
even if it's off season. Is there any chance from
what you're hearing that something gets done during this season
or it's just going to be a war of words
(04:22):
all the way through October and November.
Speaker 5 (04:24):
Yeah, so just to.
Speaker 4 (04:25):
Give you a little bit of how the collective bargain
agreement works, it ends on December first, So you can
have a lockout and yet not miss one single game.
You can also have a lockout and then also miss games,
and I think it's almost impossible that you will have
an agreement in this calendar season. I think these deals
(04:48):
get done at the eleventh hour, an hour or two before,
in the wee hours of the night before you miss
the game or two.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
Okay, so we've got months and months of this ahead.
Speaker 5 (04:58):
Oh yeah, we're just getting started.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
I mean, you've been through this, you know. On the
player's side, how distracting is it for a player to
know that this is going on, because this does affect
you know, your bottom line, it very directly. If if
you know that the economics of your game, you know
almost certainly will change in some form or fashion.
Speaker 4 (05:21):
Well, Jason, let's play it out right. Let's say you
came out of Georgetown. You you know, an average player
plays five and a half years.
Speaker 5 (05:28):
You're in year three, you're about to hit arbitration.
Speaker 4 (05:31):
You have two young kids and a newborn on the way,
and you're saying to your wife, and your wife's asking you,
but Jason, are we going to have a paycheck next year?
And you have to look at our dead and I
and say, I do not know. And I think with
the owners, which I think is a fair point. What
they're trying to do is say, hey, you guys are
a union of eight hundred members. You can't have a
(05:52):
union where you know eighty percent of the revenue is
made by the top ten percent. Why not create a
system that is more democratic. Jason can make you know,
elevate his floor, and Alex, you're still gonna make yours.
You may not make eighty million, you may make seventy
two million, but you should be okay.
Speaker 3 (06:10):
Yeah, well, I like that. In that example that you gave,
it was very clear that I was a sort of
work a day journeyman baseball player and you were still
a rod.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
So that's right, that's great, Listen.
Speaker 3 (06:24):
I mean, I'm very comfortable with my with my with
my place in the world, and you are demonstrably a
better baseball player than I am.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
And so I'm just glad you're reminded me. Like, it's good.
It's good for us all to know our roles that's
really good.
Speaker 4 (06:39):
I get away with that little sort of flex, but
you caught me on it, so well done.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
And that you were going to get paid eighty million dollars.
That's good.
Speaker 5 (06:48):
That's good.
Speaker 3 (06:50):
So speaking of you know, the biggest sports and the
biggest sports in the world, the World Cup is upon us.
As people are listening to this, they're probably listening to
it as they're either preparing for a game or maybe
watching a match one of the opening matches. How are
you feeling about this? I feel like, you know, it's
been looming and looming and looming. I probably am a
(07:11):
little more engaged in the world of soccer than you are.
But it's inescapable man, especially in your hometown.
Speaker 4 (07:16):
But when Miami it feels like it's the number one
sport here and it's a combination of you know, messy
being down here, Beckham the championship last year. Obviously, Miami
is a melting pot. We always choke around. That is very,
very close to America. That's the best part about Miami
and you certainly feel that. And you know when you
have big games here, Barjow open at seven o'clock in
(07:38):
the morning. I mean, that wasn't happening here ten fifteen
years ago and it's happening today very often. But quite honestly,
Jason is very intimidating. There's a lot of information. It's
a very fragmented sport. While football soccer is the largest,
biggest sport in the world, the fragmentation is very confusing
to me.
Speaker 5 (07:55):
But I'm willing to learn more.
Speaker 3 (07:57):
And we talked to the perfect person coming up in
the show, Henry Bushnell.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
He's a senior writer for The Athletic.
Speaker 3 (08:03):
He goes through all the big numbers and really takes
head on. I think a lot of the questions that
we have around tickets, ticket pricing, ticket availability. It is
the story of this World Cup, you know, like it
or not, So it's it's a fascinating conversation and really
got us in the mood for everything that's coming with
(08:24):
this massive World Cup. So, without further ado, here's Henry
Bushnell from the Athletic. Hi, everyone, welcome back to the deal.
I'm Jason Kelly alongside Alex Rodriguez.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
So happy to have with us. Henry Bushnell.
Speaker 3 (08:46):
He is the senior writer at the Athletic, covering the
beat that everyone is going to be following more than
any on the planet, alex It's soccer football, whatever you
call it, the World Cup as if you eleventh is
going to block out.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
The sun for the entire world.
Speaker 3 (09:03):
So Henry is the perfect person to really answer the
million questions that we have about this.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
Henry, welcome to the show.
Speaker 1 (09:10):
Appreciate you guys having me. Yes, it is a very complex,
grand event and I'm looking forward to taking into it all.
Speaker 3 (09:17):
Right, So we're going to start where I feel like
every conversation that I have about the World Cup starts
these days and probably you two, which is tickets and
ticket prices and ticket availability. Help us understand, and let's
just start with you know, we're we're Americans here. The
(09:37):
US opener you reported as of this taping has ten
thousand tickets give or take available. You know, this game
against Paraguay that's going to happen at SOFI Stadium in
Los Angeles.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
That feels weird, like what's happening?
Speaker 1 (09:51):
So basically FIFA overpriced the tickets for this game, and
there's a lot of stuff happening. The process has been
very opa like this game will probably be full, but
whereas other games, every time tickets go in the market,
they sell quickly because there is a ton of demand
(10:12):
for this event. FIFA priced this opener as the third
most expensive game of the entire World Cup US against
Paraguay at the start of this process, and essentially they
actually probably underpriced some other games and there was way,
you know, demand was you know, way overwhelmed them. Where's
they probably overpriced this game and people aren't willing to
(10:35):
pay two thousand, seven hundred and thirty five dollars or
whatever it is for a for a second deck you know,
ticket behind the goal. And so it's, as you said,
the discussions around this have kind of over This is
the topic of the World Cup until now, right, And
and I think this game for a lot of people
represents just how aggressive FIFA has been with the pricing
(10:58):
of it.
Speaker 4 (10:59):
And is it the ticket prices you mentioned, you know,
twenty eight hundred or so plus or minus, or is
it that you have to fill up such a big
stadium in so far, I think it's both.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
So obviously, yeah, there are some people who have been
willing to pay this price. But whereas you know, all
the stadiums are going to be played in the games
in the United States are going to be in stadiums
there are sixty thousand, seventy eighty thousand, so SOFA isn't
necessarily unique from that respect. And you know, one of
the stadiums in Mexico is massive as well. The stadiums
(11:31):
in Canada and the other ones in Mexico, they're at
least for fifty thousand. But for a lot of the games,
they could sell a two hundred thousand seat stadium right
for any game involving Argentina, involving Mexico, involving England, you know,
in involving any of these big teams, they could sell
three hundred thousand tickets probably if they priced it right.
(11:53):
And I think it's just this was one of the
few games that they overestimated the demand for.
Speaker 5 (11:58):
No. I think you're spot on, Henry.
Speaker 4 (12:00):
And the thing is, I just covered recently the World
Baseball Classic here in Miami, and Miami's just on fire soccer.
I'm feeling the energy and the love for soccer. But
every game in the World Baseball Classic was absolutely sold
out and then some. I mean, you know, but I
am sure in Jason here to say you for your
next question, it's just a comment. I'm sure that in
(12:22):
La the Olympic is going to be played here in
a few years, and I'm sure the Olympic Committee is
paying attention very closely to these overpricing because it is
a big miss and publicly it looks like a bit hollow.
Speaker 2 (12:34):
Yeah, And so Henry like, somebody made a mistake here?
Who messed up? And why do you think?
Speaker 1 (12:42):
Yeah, we don't know exactly who, because as I said,
this process has been just super opaque. Yeah, And we
don't know how they set the ticket prices. We don't
know who they've consulted, whether in the American sports sphere
or you know, this is a European organization for the
most part, that has come to America and tried to
adopt American sports business practice, and in some ways I
(13:02):
think they understood the market correctly, and in some ways
they probably misjudged it. And I think that's so that
tension between a global organization, yes, but really a European
based organization coming into the United States market that has
been central to all of the discussion around ticket prices
and just the different expectations that Americans have versus whether
(13:27):
it's European soccer fans or South American soccer fans people
elsewhere around the world, so we don't know exactly who
made the mistake. I would also think that FIFA would
maybe argue that they didn't necessarily make a mistake, that
when you have to set prices, there's some guesswork that
goes into it, and you're never gonna hit the mark
(13:50):
exactly with all one hundred four games, right, and sometimes
you're gonna you're gonna go too low, and sometimes you're
gonna go too high. And as long as they they
ultimately fill most of the stadiums, which I think they will.
If they went too aggressive on some ticket prices, that's
probably just a function of trying to maximize revenue on
(14:13):
this event, and which in some ways I think they will.
Now if the stadiums aren't full, then it's a different
conversation and we'll see. We really have no clue what
it's going to be like, because, as we said, FIFA
hasn't been transparent with how many tickets they've sold and
things like that.
Speaker 4 (14:30):
So, Henry a great, great point when it comes to FIFA.
You mentioned one hundred and four games. How much money
approximately does FIFA stand to make if you had to guess.
Speaker 1 (14:42):
So they have budgeted about eleven billion dollars from the
World Cup as a whole. Yeah, it's a lot. Now
that that includes sponsorship and broadcasts, right, those are two
giant buckets. From ticketing and hospitality alone around three billion,
So yeah, it's a lot of money. And part of
that so that's way up from any previous World Cup.
(15:05):
And part of that is because of the hospitality capacity
at these NFL stadiums, Right, They're going to make way
more money from hospitality, and they already have made way
more money than from hospitality at this World Cup than
at any previous World Cup. So it's a it's a
big uptick. And yeah, and obviously the other part of
that is they're selling tickets for at this stage, every
(15:29):
single ticket compared to an equivalent ticket at the last
World Cup is more than twice as expensive. So yeah,
they're making a lot of money on tickets.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
Yeah, and it's interesting.
Speaker 3 (15:40):
So I had the chance to interview Johnny and Vintina,
the head of FIFA a few weeks ago at the
Milican Conference in Beverly Hills, and you know he made
a comment, I mean, Hender you know him well and Alex,
I think you've met him briefly, you know.
Speaker 2 (15:54):
I mean, he's this larger than life character.
Speaker 3 (15:57):
He's like made of teflon and it's unbelieve And you know,
he was talking about, you know, the happy barbarians arriving
on the shores of America in Mexico and Canada. You've
heard him probably used that line, Henry, you know, and
I pressed them a little bit and said, you know, well,
some of those barbarians a little grumpy at how much
they have to pay for tickets. And his response was
(16:18):
essentially a variation on what you're saying, Henry, And I'd
love to talk about this a little more, which is
this notion of these are US market prices, you know,
this is what this is what the market demands. And
I guess that's another way of sort of talking about
what you are, which is a they need to make
a lot of money. They're they're a nonprofit, which is
(16:39):
kind of amazing to think about this nonprofit ish this
is this all goes to sort of fund the work
of FIFA around the world, so they do have to
maximize revenue. But to your point, and maybe I'm not
even asking a question here, but more sort of opening
on this just the optics of empty seat is brutal
(17:01):
for and I think it's brutal for something we've talked
a lot about on this show, which is what the
legacy of this World Cup is, especially here in the
United States.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
Do you agree?
Speaker 1 (17:12):
Yeah, And I think it's not just the optics of
empty seats, which again we're not sure that we're going
to see up. Yeah, empty seats, if the optics of
soccer being an expensive inaccessible great point. Great And FIFA, yes,
you said, they're a nonprofit. They exist to develop soccer
around the world, and in their mind that is making
(17:34):
a bunch of money from this World Cup and distributing
it across the world to different soccer federations. And there's
something in that. There's also a lot of like FIFA
politics in that that's how Johnny and Fantino stays in
power because he can promise all this money to the
federations who then vote for him. But look, another part
of developing soccer and growing the game, especially here in
(17:54):
the United States, is getting people interested in it. And
if the story of this World Cup was all the
excitement building around it rather than how expensive the tickets are,
that serves a purpose and so I think the expensiveness
of the tickets is going to become an inescapable part
(18:15):
of the legacy of this World Cup, and it's doing
some harm to it. Now, FIFA would maybe say, and
in fact their Secretary General did say this when I
asked him about it a couple of months ago. Yeah,
but the legacy of the World Cup is also the
money that's going to be made and flow to all
the soccer federations around the world, And in that sense,
the United States is just one of two hundred and
(18:36):
eleven members, and we sometimes look at this too much
from a US centric perspective when all the other a
lot of other countries around the world are in a
way very indirectly going to benefit from this. But I
do think it's doing a lot of harm to what
this World Cup could do for soccer in the United States.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
Henry.
Speaker 3 (18:58):
One of the things on the ticket price issue that
you've done some really good reporting on is some investigations
by the Attorney's General in New York and New Jersey
specifically about how tickets have been priced and the information
or lack thereof that's been given out help us understand
a little bit of the backstory there. And the state
(19:18):
of play.
Speaker 1 (19:20):
Yeah, so this is an issue that really exploded a
couple months ago. Ticket pricing, as we said, has been
a conversation ever since things started back in September and October.
But in April when so FIFA sold these tickets and categories, right,
which we aren't used to in the United States, like
we're used to buying a specific seat in a specific section.
FIFA sold them in categories and then had total control
(19:43):
of converting those into specific seats. And when they converted them,
a lot of fans felt misled by the initial advertising
of Okay, if I'm buying a category one ticket, what
exactly does that mean? And FIFA altered some of the
stadium maps. A lot of people felt the stadium maps
were kind of misleading, and so that, you know, made
(20:06):
this blew this whole thing up into fan outrage. And
the Attorney general. Attorney General are either serious about investigating
that and what FIFA did here, and they've subpoenaed FIFA
and they're asking for a lot of info. But I
think there's also a sense that they know a lot
(20:28):
of people are outraged about this and it is a
politically popular thing to do to investigate FIFA right now
because a lot of people are mad at FIFA, So
who knows where exactly this ends up going. They haven't
released any specific documents yet, and we'll see how you know,
there's a chance that FIFA fights this. It's certainly not
going to be resolved before the World Cup starts or
(20:50):
even before the World Cup ends, but yeah, we'll see
where it goes. It sounds like the way they've described
it is as a relatively wide ranging investigation into FIFA's
ticketing practices.
Speaker 3 (21:01):
Interesting and fifaz is is no stranger to to scandals
and investigations, so just added added to the list.
Speaker 4 (21:21):
This is such a global experience and like Jason said,
this is going to take over the world here in
a few weeks. That's all everyone's going to talk about
in the world of sports. As we've been kind of
having a drum beat to it. But in your opinion,
which specific city or country around the world wins out
the most and as far as economics, as far as logistics,
vibes goodwill.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
It's a really good question. So the US is really
going to be the center of this World cupon Mexico
is going to have the opener and certainly the Mexican
and Canadian cities are going to be a significant part
of it. But three quarters of the games are in
the United States. Every game from the quarterfinals onwards is
in the United States. So the US is really going
to be a hub of it when you look at
(22:04):
who got the best games, and that's really going to determine,
you know, where fans end up going. I think the
games in Eastrotha, for New Jersey, just outside New York,
it's a really good slate, Like Miami got some games
that are really gonna light up Miami as well. And
then you look at a city like Kansas City for example,
that you know, Kansas City is the one. It's the
(22:25):
lowest profile of the eleven US cities for sure, and
I think people in Kansas City would admit that. And
so they're looking at the World Cup as a way
to just like elevate the prestige of the city. And
they got Argentina playing there and Argentina even setting up
their base camp there. England and the Netherlands also setting
up their base camp there, and there's a chance that
(22:47):
you know, they have one of the quarterfinals as well,
and there's a chance that that quarterfinal could be Argentina
against Portugal. You know, a lot of steps to go
to get there. So so some of this is going
to depend on how the matchups play out. But there
are certainly some cities that got better games than others,
and I think that the ones that I mentioned are
among the among the cities they got good ones.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
You know, you look at the business of soccer very
holistically for.
Speaker 3 (23:16):
Sort of building up what you're saying, beyond the performance
of what happens during this tournament, who stands to benefit
long term, whether that's through their local MLS team or
through just sort of a broad interest in soccer or
investments in the sports ecosystem, etc. And maybe that's part
(23:38):
of your answer for Kansas City or others.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
It's a really interesting question because a big part of
the story of the organization of this World Cup and
all the business around it is that FIFA has tried
to monopolize as much of the benefit as it can,
and so US Soccer and MLS and a lot of
these other entities have been trying to figure out how
(24:02):
to kind of draft off of it and get some benefit,
but it's been difficult for them because FIFA controls all
the revenue streams. They on the expense side, the cities
have to do a lot for FIFA and they don't
get much benefit in return. So it really is directly
FIFA is getting a lot of the benefit. Indirectly is
(24:24):
where you start thinking about all these other entities benefiting
from the growth and popularity of soccer in general. So,
like MLS might not be getting much direct revenue from
the World Cup, but if soccer grows and if MLS
is able to use smart marketing strategies to kind of
(24:45):
convert some of these fans who get hooked on soccer
from the World Cup into fans of the local MLS team,
then it does have that kind of indirect benefit. I
just think it's very difficult at this stage to a
quantify what that's going to be and be just can
like conceive how exactly, like how exactly is that going
(25:06):
to materialize itself over the next two months, next two
months and over the next five years fakly like, how
can it convert these people into long term soccer fans?
And we just don't know. It could happen in waves,
It could just be a momentary bump that doesn't really
have much of a long term impact. I'm not sure
we know yet.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
Yeah, it's interesting.
Speaker 3 (25:28):
I mean, we had Roger Bennett on the show, you know,
a few weeks ago, and you know it's his perspective,
as you're well equated with, is interesting because you know,
we pressed him pretty hard on this idea of the
future of soccer in America and you know, whether the
game is really going to catch on and his response,
(25:51):
Roger's response is essentially like, no, the boom has already happened.
The problem is is that most of the soccer fans
are tuning into NBC and Peacock on the weekends to
watch Premier League and they're not. I mean they are
They're definitively not tuning in to to the MLS. And
so I wonder, as someone who thinks about this and you,
(26:14):
I want to press you a little bit on something
you mentioned, is you know, can this have a real
effect on the MLS and what does that look like
like if you if you were to paint the best
case scenario, is it rising valuations, is it more fans,
is it better players coming to the United States on
the on the backs of this, like, what does success
(26:36):
for the domestic American league look like coming out of this.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
Yeah, it's really tough because MLS is doing great with
in stadium attendances, so they don't necessarily need all these
people to start buying tickets. Obviously that's good, you know,
not sure every MLS game sells out that there is
still room for growth there where they really need to grow.
There is, though, is with a TV deal, and the
(27:00):
TV of deal is largely tied to how popular your
players are and how good the product is, right, and
that's where I think MLS has missed a pretty big opportunity.
My colleague Pulton Oio at The Athletic has covered this
a ton and in fact wrote a whole book that
actually just launched today that dives into a lot of this.
(27:22):
But MLS failed to loosen its roster rules and salary
cap enough to be able to tract better players that
would really improve the products on the field in time
for this moment where you have a lot of eyes
on soccer, and they could have gotten to a point
(27:43):
maybe where MLS could have been positioned as pushing into
the top five leagues in the world and knocking on
the door the person who gets interested in soccer this
weekend or this month and next month. What reason do
they have to turn on an MLS game versus, as
you mentioned, an English Premier League game, or a real
Madrid game or a Lega a Mechi's game. In Mexico,
(28:06):
Soccer is very popular here, but it's the fandom is
very fractured and splintered and you know, divided between a
lot of different entities, and so MLS is fighting with
all those entities for eyeballs and they have to give
people a reason to tune in. And you can do
(28:27):
that with the in stadium environments and they've done a
really good job of that and making an MLS game
a fun experience on a Saturday night. But there's still
the broader TV ecosystem that I don't think they've really cracked.
Speaker 2 (28:45):
Yet, Henry.
Speaker 3 (28:46):
You know, the other backdrop to this World Cup has
obviously been if you build it, which they have, will
they come? Will they be able to get here? You know,
you get these sporadic reports. South Africa recently seem to
have some VSA issues even for their team and their
technical staff. What are you hearing from your sources around
(29:08):
sort of the trends as it relates to people actually
being able to get here and feeling feeling like they
want to and can be here to witness this World Cup.
Speaker 1 (29:17):
I would say that that is not as big a
problem as a lot of the reports over the past
couple of years have made it seem, largely because basically
because the bigger barrier is just the expense of attending
this World Cup, the cost and not just the cost
of tickets, the cost of flying to America, of staying
(29:41):
at hotels which you know, all jacked up their prices
to try to capitalize in the World Cup, of the
transport of just everyday things like food in the US,
like it's more expensive than a lot of countries around.
It's expensive to travel to the United States, and so
a lot of the people who can afford it have
had no trouble getting visas, and in large part are
(30:03):
from you know, relatively rich European countries who and they
don't feel unwelcome here in any way, whereas a lot
of the people from who would feel unwelcome here or
who would have trouble getting visas from the countries that
don't have the visa waiver program probably can't afford to
come to the World Cup anyway. Now there are exceptions,
because there are people who save up for years and
(30:25):
years to come to the World Cup and you know,
take out secking mortgages and etc.
Speaker 5 (30:30):
Etc.
Speaker 1 (30:30):
Like there are crazy soccer fans around the world who
will do anything to get to the World Cup and
who have done that and will be coming. But that's
this very small sub section of the fans. So I
think the big the bigger reason that not as many
people are going to be coming from abroad as we thought,
Like the main reason for that is just the cost
(30:52):
of this World Cup. But I also would say on
that point, like this World Cup is still going to
have a ton of international flavor because of the diaspora
in the United States, Right, Like the reason the World
Baseball Classic was such a smashing success was because like
think about how many Venezuela fans were in that stadium, right,
And so you're going to have a lot of for example,
(31:13):
Ecuadorian Americans who no matter where they are in the US,
they're going to go to Ecuador's games, Right. You're going
to have a lot of Japanese Americans, You're going to
you know, Iranian Americans out in La There are all
these diasporas that are really going to light up this
World Cup in a way that frankly, no other country
(31:35):
can like the US is a uniquely qualified to host
the World Cup in this way.
Speaker 4 (31:39):
I have a quick bonus one and I know Jason
wants to pivot and close, but real quick. I've always
have two daughters, twenty one and eighteen. I've always wanted
part of our bucket list. They just told me last
week they want to go to a soccer game but
in Europe, but experience Yankees versus Red Sox. So if
you gave me one recommendation and all our listeners, what's
the one place venue and who are they playing in
(32:02):
that venue?
Speaker 1 (32:03):
Wow, that's a really good question. I would say. I
think I'm actually gonna take you outside. If you want
a really crazy experience crazy, go to South America. Go
to Argentina. Boca Juniors against River Plate would be the
single best atmosphere that you could find. And one in
Europe and one in Europe. Man, there are a lot
(32:26):
of good ones in Europe. Uh, Bayern Munich against Bruceia
Dortmund in Germany is pretty darn is pretty darn good.
Speaker 5 (32:34):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (32:35):
You go to Celtic against Rangers in Scotland. Uh, you
know there are there are several ones in in England
that would be good. You know, Barcelona versus Real Madrid,
that's probably the best comparison to Red Sox Yankees. Actually, yeah,
Barcelona against Real Madrid in Spain is probably the best
best comparison.
Speaker 3 (32:52):
Okay, thank you, all right, So last question for you, Henry.
Speaker 2 (32:56):
That was a pretty good last question.
Speaker 3 (32:57):
But I'm gonna just like muscle in here, we're so
excited to read everything you write and talk about through
this World Cup. What's the story you're most excited to write,
Like as you think about the next month, Like, what's
the story you want us to be on the lookout
for that you just know that, like, regardless of like
how it's going to play out, it's just gonna be
(33:18):
a great storyline.
Speaker 1 (33:20):
Man. That's a good question because I think a lot
of what I'm excited about is that I don't think
we know what the story is gonna be. But I
think in general we talked about it a bit, but
like the world being introduced to American sports culture and
just all the contrasts and the cultural clashes that come
with that. Like I'm even just thinking about the opener
(33:40):
at Sofi Stadium. Sofi Stadium is an crazy venue, a right,
like most expensive stadium in the world, all these fancy
video boards. Paraguay, who plays against the United States in
the opener of that stadium, their national soccer stadium has
like four very simple video boards, not much advertising, you know,
(34:04):
it's just just very basic stadium where everything is focused
on what's happening on the field, whereas so far is
almost the opposite, right, the focus just gets drawn everywhere else.
And so it's just it's an entirely different sporting experience.
And I think having the World Cup in these venues
is it's just I don't I don't know exactly what
(34:24):
it's gonna feel like. I think a lot of people
coming don't know what's gonna hit them, and and I
think it's gonna be very interesting. From that perspective.
Speaker 3 (34:31):
It's great to think about, you know, not only how
will soccer change the US sporting scene and the future
of the sport here, but like how will how will.
Speaker 2 (34:42):
The US change the game? I mean, I mean, we'll
see that's.
Speaker 3 (34:45):
A that's a that's another episode that we'll have to
do with you down the line.
Speaker 2 (34:49):
Get your reaction.
Speaker 1 (34:50):
So it's the we like to call it the Americanization
of the World Cup is kind of how we're thinking
about it, Like, I think that's going to be the story.
Speaker 3 (34:59):
Well, we're looking for to reading that story and everything
else you produce. Henry Bushnell, thank you so much, senior
writer for The Athletic and going to be the busiest
guy on the planet over the next months or so.
So really grateful to get some of your time ahead
of it.
Speaker 2 (35:12):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (35:13):
Thanks guys.
Speaker 2 (35:18):
This episode was produced by Stacy Wong.
Speaker 3 (35:20):
Our senior producers are Alexis HoTT and Anamasarakus.
Speaker 5 (35:25):
Will Connelly is.
Speaker 3 (35:26):
Our video editor. Our theme music is made by Blake Maples.
Our executive producers are Ashley Zingaro and Amy Keene. Additional
support from Rachel Carnivale, Nick Silva, and Elena Los Angeles.
Thanks so much for listening to the deal. If you
have a minute, subscribe, rate and review our show. It'll
help other listeners find us. I'm Jason Kelly. See you
next week.
Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, Radio News.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Welcome back to the Deal.
Speaker 3 (00:13):
I'm Jason Kelly alongside my partner Alex Rodriguez.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
All right, Alex, First of all, how you doing. I have?
Speaker 3 (00:20):
I feel like I haven't seen you in forever. You know,
We've got episodes rolling out, but we haven't been together
for a while. I don't know.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
I miss you, man, like what's happening.
Speaker 4 (00:28):
I always miss you, and every time we don't see
each other, it feels like my brother from another mother's
wake on somewhere.
Speaker 5 (00:34):
But you're busy. I'm busy. But here's the good news.
Speaker 4 (00:37):
I'm gonna be spending a lot of time in New
York over the next few months, and I get to
see you in a couple of days.
Speaker 3 (00:43):
Yeah, exactly, We're gonna We're gonna be hanging out in
New York a little bit. I mean in part because listen,
I gotta tell you, and you've seen it. You're at
one of the conference final games. New York's pretty occupied
right now with the NBA Finals. It will talk a
little bit more about it, but as the series goes on.
(01:06):
But listen, the Knicks, and with all apologies to the
team that made you a fortunate and very famous. The
Yankees are nothing compared to the Knicks when it comes
to just electrifying New York.
Speaker 5 (01:19):
City right now, You're absolutely right.
Speaker 4 (01:22):
And the thing about it is, and I'll give Michael
Kay credit for this, the voice of the New York Yankees.
Speaker 5 (01:27):
He said, the Knicks, and it's so true.
Speaker 4 (01:30):
Is the one team of the many teams in New
York City that unites the whole city. Yeah, when the
Yankees are winning, the Mets fans are pissed off.
Speaker 5 (01:38):
Vice versa.
Speaker 4 (01:38):
When the Mets are winning, the Yankee fans island. There's
Rangers jet.
Speaker 3 (01:42):
That's a horrible that when you say the Mets when
the Mets are winning, because that hasn't happened and it
feels like centuries go on.
Speaker 5 (01:48):
But with the.
Speaker 4 (01:49):
Knicks, is like the whole city is behind them and
is the only team of the many, many teams that
are in New York that sits right in the center
of the greatest city in the world Square Garden.
Speaker 5 (02:00):
Who may be the biggest star of the franchise.
Speaker 3 (02:04):
Yeah, I know, totally true. It's the world's most famous
arena for a reason. I mean, it's also such an
amazing time to be in sports. Because we're in the
depths of the baseball season. I got to tell you,
I'm loving what's happening down at Truest with the Atlanta Braves.
They are on fire. I mean, and I have to say,
I was thinking back you predicted this, you said the
(02:25):
Braves have all the pieces put together.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
And when we get together next week, we're.
Speaker 3 (02:31):
Going to when we get together soon, we're going to
talk more about you know, your thoughts on baseball. But
looming over all of this is negotiations that are happening
around the Collective Bargaining Agreement. It expires us toward the
end of this year. What are you hearing from people
that you're talking to on all sides of the table.
(02:51):
What's the state of play for CBA negotiations?
Speaker 4 (02:54):
Yeah, Jason, and I've had as being a member of
the union for almost twenty five years, I have a
lot of experience. Obviously going back to Don Fear, who's
ahead of the union uh and Gene Orza than Michael
Wiener he passed, and of course Tony Clark. And today
you have a new regime which is challenging from a
timing perspective.
Speaker 5 (03:13):
Leadership of the Union. On the other side, you have.
Speaker 4 (03:16):
Rob Manford and Dan Halem leading working for the for
the league and the owners. And I've spoken to dozens
and dozens of people from both sides of the aisle,
and that's what it reminds me of is a political
race whether red and blue are screaming at each other,
but no one's listening to each other, and they both
think they're one hundred percent right. And just going back
a little history, when the word salary cap comes to,
(03:41):
you know, fruition or even if it's even introduced, it's
almost like, uh, you know, China, Russia having you know,
nuclear bombs point of the United States.
Speaker 5 (03:51):
That's how triggering it is of a word for the Union.
Speaker 4 (03:56):
And you're seeing that right now they're so far apart
and now they're starting to play in the media game,
and it's just going to escalate from here.
Speaker 3 (04:02):
And so it seems like from what Commission Manfred has said,
a lockout or a walkout is inevitable at this point,
even if it's off season. Is there any chance from
what you're hearing that something gets done during this season
or it's just going to be a war of words
(04:22):
all the way through October and November.
Speaker 5 (04:24):
Yeah, so just to.
Speaker 4 (04:25):
Give you a little bit of how the collective bargain
agreement works, it ends on December first, So you can
have a lockout and yet not miss one single game.
You can also have a lockout and then also miss games,
and I think it's almost impossible that you will have
an agreement in this calendar season. I think these deals
(04:48):
get done at the eleventh hour, an hour or two before,
in the wee hours of the night before you miss
the game or two.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
Okay, so we've got months and months of this ahead.
Speaker 5 (04:58):
Oh yeah, we're just getting started.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
I mean, you've been through this, you know. On the
player's side, how distracting is it for a player to
know that this is going on, because this does affect
you know, your bottom line, it very directly. If if
you know that the economics of your game, you know
almost certainly will change in some form or fashion.
Speaker 4 (05:21):
Well, Jason, let's play it out right. Let's say you
came out of Georgetown. You you know, an average player
plays five and a half years.
Speaker 5 (05:28):
You're in year three, you're about to hit arbitration.
Speaker 4 (05:31):
You have two young kids and a newborn on the way,
and you're saying to your wife, and your wife's asking you,
but Jason, are we going to have a paycheck next year?
And you have to look at our dead and I
and say, I do not know. And I think with
the owners, which I think is a fair point. What
they're trying to do is say, hey, you guys are
a union of eight hundred members. You can't have a
(05:52):
union where you know eighty percent of the revenue is
made by the top ten percent. Why not create a
system that is more democratic. Jason can make you know,
elevate his floor, and Alex, you're still gonna make yours.
You may not make eighty million, you may make seventy
two million, but you should be okay.
Speaker 3 (06:10):
Yeah, well, I like that. In that example that you gave,
it was very clear that I was a sort of
work a day journeyman baseball player and you were still
a rod.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
So that's right, that's great, Listen.
Speaker 3 (06:24):
I mean, I'm very comfortable with my with my with
my place in the world, and you are demonstrably a
better baseball player than I am.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
And so I'm just glad you're reminded me. Like, it's good.
It's good for us all to know our roles that's
really good.
Speaker 4 (06:39):
I get away with that little sort of flex, but
you caught me on it, so well done.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
And that you were going to get paid eighty million dollars.
That's good.
Speaker 5 (06:48):
That's good.
Speaker 3 (06:50):
So speaking of you know, the biggest sports and the
biggest sports in the world, the World Cup is upon us.
As people are listening to this, they're probably listening to
it as they're either preparing for a game or maybe
watching a match one of the opening matches. How are
you feeling about this? I feel like, you know, it's
been looming and looming and looming. I probably am a
(07:11):
little more engaged in the world of soccer than you are.
But it's inescapable man, especially in your hometown.
Speaker 4 (07:16):
But when Miami it feels like it's the number one
sport here and it's a combination of you know, messy
being down here, Beckham the championship last year. Obviously, Miami
is a melting pot. We always choke around. That is very,
very close to America. That's the best part about Miami
and you certainly feel that. And you know when you
have big games here, Barjow open at seven o'clock in
(07:38):
the morning. I mean, that wasn't happening here ten fifteen
years ago and it's happening today very often. But quite honestly,
Jason is very intimidating. There's a lot of information. It's
a very fragmented sport. While football soccer is the largest,
biggest sport in the world, the fragmentation is very confusing
to me.
Speaker 5 (07:55):
But I'm willing to learn more.
Speaker 3 (07:57):
And we talked to the perfect person coming up in
the show, Henry Bushnell.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
He's a senior writer for The Athletic.
Speaker 3 (08:03):
He goes through all the big numbers and really takes
head on. I think a lot of the questions that
we have around tickets, ticket pricing, ticket availability. It is
the story of this World Cup, you know, like it
or not, So it's it's a fascinating conversation and really
got us in the mood for everything that's coming with
(08:24):
this massive World Cup. So, without further ado, here's Henry
Bushnell from the Athletic. Hi, everyone, welcome back to the deal.
I'm Jason Kelly alongside Alex Rodriguez.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
So happy to have with us. Henry Bushnell.
Speaker 3 (08:46):
He is the senior writer at the Athletic, covering the
beat that everyone is going to be following more than
any on the planet, alex It's soccer football, whatever you
call it, the World Cup as if you eleventh is
going to block out.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
The sun for the entire world.
Speaker 3 (09:03):
So Henry is the perfect person to really answer the
million questions that we have about this.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
Henry, welcome to the show.
Speaker 1 (09:10):
Appreciate you guys having me. Yes, it is a very complex,
grand event and I'm looking forward to taking into it all.
Speaker 3 (09:17):
Right, So we're going to start where I feel like
every conversation that I have about the World Cup starts
these days and probably you two, which is tickets and
ticket prices and ticket availability. Help us understand, and let's
just start with you know, we're we're Americans here. The
(09:37):
US opener you reported as of this taping has ten
thousand tickets give or take available. You know, this game
against Paraguay that's going to happen at SOFI Stadium in
Los Angeles.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
That feels weird, like what's happening?
Speaker 1 (09:51):
So basically FIFA overpriced the tickets for this game, and
there's a lot of stuff happening. The process has been
very opa like this game will probably be full, but
whereas other games, every time tickets go in the market,
they sell quickly because there is a ton of demand
(10:12):
for this event. FIFA priced this opener as the third
most expensive game of the entire World Cup US against
Paraguay at the start of this process, and essentially they
actually probably underpriced some other games and there was way,
you know, demand was you know, way overwhelmed them. Where's
they probably overpriced this game and people aren't willing to
(10:35):
pay two thousand, seven hundred and thirty five dollars or
whatever it is for a for a second deck you know,
ticket behind the goal. And so it's, as you said,
the discussions around this have kind of over This is
the topic of the World Cup until now, right, And
and I think this game for a lot of people
represents just how aggressive FIFA has been with the pricing
(10:58):
of it.
Speaker 4 (10:59):
And is it the ticket prices you mentioned, you know,
twenty eight hundred or so plus or minus, or is
it that you have to fill up such a big
stadium in so far, I think it's both.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
So obviously, yeah, there are some people who have been
willing to pay this price. But whereas you know, all
the stadiums are going to be played in the games
in the United States are going to be in stadiums
there are sixty thousand, seventy eighty thousand, so SOFA isn't
necessarily unique from that respect. And you know, one of
the stadiums in Mexico is massive as well. The stadiums
(11:31):
in Canada and the other ones in Mexico, they're at
least for fifty thousand. But for a lot of the games,
they could sell a two hundred thousand seat stadium right
for any game involving Argentina, involving Mexico, involving England, you know,
in involving any of these big teams, they could sell
three hundred thousand tickets probably if they priced it right.
(11:53):
And I think it's just this was one of the
few games that they overestimated the demand for.
Speaker 5 (11:58):
No. I think you're spot on, Henry.
Speaker 4 (12:00):
And the thing is, I just covered recently the World
Baseball Classic here in Miami, and Miami's just on fire soccer.
I'm feeling the energy and the love for soccer. But
every game in the World Baseball Classic was absolutely sold
out and then some. I mean, you know, but I
am sure in Jason here to say you for your
next question, it's just a comment. I'm sure that in
(12:22):
La the Olympic is going to be played here in
a few years, and I'm sure the Olympic Committee is
paying attention very closely to these overpricing because it is
a big miss and publicly it looks like a bit hollow.
Speaker 2 (12:34):
Yeah, And so Henry like, somebody made a mistake here?
Who messed up? And why do you think?
Speaker 1 (12:42):
Yeah, we don't know exactly who, because as I said,
this process has been just super opaque. Yeah, And we
don't know how they set the ticket prices. We don't
know who they've consulted, whether in the American sports sphere
or you know, this is a European organization for the
most part, that has come to America and tried to
adopt American sports business practice, and in some ways I
(13:02):
think they understood the market correctly, and in some ways
they probably misjudged it. And I think that's so that
tension between a global organization, yes, but really a European
based organization coming into the United States market that has
been central to all of the discussion around ticket prices
and just the different expectations that Americans have versus whether
(13:27):
it's European soccer fans or South American soccer fans people
elsewhere around the world, so we don't know exactly who
made the mistake. I would also think that FIFA would
maybe argue that they didn't necessarily make a mistake, that
when you have to set prices, there's some guesswork that
goes into it, and you're never gonna hit the mark
(13:50):
exactly with all one hundred four games, right, and sometimes
you're gonna you're gonna go too low, and sometimes you're
gonna go too high. And as long as they they
ultimately fill most of the stadiums, which I think they will.
If they went too aggressive on some ticket prices, that's
probably just a function of trying to maximize revenue on
(14:13):
this event, and which in some ways I think they will.
Now if the stadiums aren't full, then it's a different
conversation and we'll see. We really have no clue what
it's going to be like, because, as we said, FIFA
hasn't been transparent with how many tickets they've sold and
things like that.
Speaker 4 (14:30):
So, Henry a great, great point when it comes to FIFA.
You mentioned one hundred and four games. How much money
approximately does FIFA stand to make if you had to guess.
Speaker 1 (14:42):
So they have budgeted about eleven billion dollars from the
World Cup as a whole. Yeah, it's a lot. Now
that that includes sponsorship and broadcasts, right, those are two
giant buckets. From ticketing and hospitality alone around three billion,
So yeah, it's a lot of money. And part of
that so that's way up from any previous World Cup.
(15:05):
And part of that is because of the hospitality capacity
at these NFL stadiums, Right, They're going to make way
more money from hospitality, and they already have made way
more money than from hospitality at this World Cup than
at any previous World Cup. So it's a it's a
big uptick. And yeah, and obviously the other part of
that is they're selling tickets for at this stage, every
(15:29):
single ticket compared to an equivalent ticket at the last
World Cup is more than twice as expensive. So yeah,
they're making a lot of money on tickets.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
Yeah, and it's interesting.
Speaker 3 (15:40):
So I had the chance to interview Johnny and Vintina,
the head of FIFA a few weeks ago at the
Milican Conference in Beverly Hills, and you know he made
a comment, I mean, Hender you know him well and Alex,
I think you've met him briefly, you know.
Speaker 2 (15:54):
I mean, he's this larger than life character.
Speaker 3 (15:57):
He's like made of teflon and it's unbelieve And you know,
he was talking about, you know, the happy barbarians arriving
on the shores of America in Mexico and Canada. You've
heard him probably used that line, Henry, you know, and
I pressed them a little bit and said, you know, well,
some of those barbarians a little grumpy at how much
they have to pay for tickets. And his response was
(16:18):
essentially a variation on what you're saying, Henry, And I'd
love to talk about this a little more, which is
this notion of these are US market prices, you know,
this is what this is what the market demands. And
I guess that's another way of sort of talking about
what you are, which is a they need to make
a lot of money. They're they're a nonprofit, which is
(16:39):
kind of amazing to think about this nonprofit ish this
is this all goes to sort of fund the work
of FIFA around the world, so they do have to
maximize revenue. But to your point, and maybe I'm not
even asking a question here, but more sort of opening
on this just the optics of empty seat is brutal
(17:01):
for and I think it's brutal for something we've talked
a lot about on this show, which is what the
legacy of this World Cup is, especially here in the
United States.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
Do you agree?
Speaker 1 (17:12):
Yeah, And I think it's not just the optics of
empty seats, which again we're not sure that we're going
to see up. Yeah, empty seats, if the optics of
soccer being an expensive inaccessible great point. Great And FIFA, yes,
you said, they're a nonprofit. They exist to develop soccer
around the world, and in their mind that is making
(17:34):
a bunch of money from this World Cup and distributing
it across the world to different soccer federations. And there's
something in that. There's also a lot of like FIFA
politics in that that's how Johnny and Fantino stays in
power because he can promise all this money to the
federations who then vote for him. But look, another part
of developing soccer and growing the game, especially here in
(17:54):
the United States, is getting people interested in it. And
if the story of this World Cup was all the
excitement building around it rather than how expensive the tickets are,
that serves a purpose and so I think the expensiveness
of the tickets is going to become an inescapable part
(18:15):
of the legacy of this World Cup, and it's doing
some harm to it. Now, FIFA would maybe say, and
in fact their Secretary General did say this when I
asked him about it a couple of months ago. Yeah,
but the legacy of the World Cup is also the
money that's going to be made and flow to all
the soccer federations around the world, And in that sense,
the United States is just one of two hundred and
(18:36):
eleven members, and we sometimes look at this too much
from a US centric perspective when all the other a
lot of other countries around the world are in a
way very indirectly going to benefit from this. But I
do think it's doing a lot of harm to what
this World Cup could do for soccer in the United States.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
Henry.
Speaker 3 (18:58):
One of the things on the ticket price issue that
you've done some really good reporting on is some investigations
by the Attorney's General in New York and New Jersey
specifically about how tickets have been priced and the information
or lack thereof that's been given out help us understand
a little bit of the backstory there. And the state
(19:18):
of play.
Speaker 1 (19:20):
Yeah, so this is an issue that really exploded a
couple months ago. Ticket pricing, as we said, has been
a conversation ever since things started back in September and October.
But in April when so FIFA sold these tickets and categories, right,
which we aren't used to in the United States, like
we're used to buying a specific seat in a specific section.
FIFA sold them in categories and then had total control
(19:43):
of converting those into specific seats. And when they converted them,
a lot of fans felt misled by the initial advertising
of Okay, if I'm buying a category one ticket, what
exactly does that mean? And FIFA altered some of the
stadium maps. A lot of people felt the stadium maps
were kind of misleading, and so that, you know, made
(20:06):
this blew this whole thing up into fan outrage. And
the Attorney general. Attorney General are either serious about investigating
that and what FIFA did here, and they've subpoenaed FIFA
and they're asking for a lot of info. But I
think there's also a sense that they know a lot
(20:28):
of people are outraged about this and it is a
politically popular thing to do to investigate FIFA right now
because a lot of people are mad at FIFA, So
who knows where exactly this ends up going. They haven't
released any specific documents yet, and we'll see how you know,
there's a chance that FIFA fights this. It's certainly not
going to be resolved before the World Cup starts or
(20:50):
even before the World Cup ends, but yeah, we'll see
where it goes. It sounds like the way they've described
it is as a relatively wide ranging investigation into FIFA's
ticketing practices.
Speaker 3 (21:01):
Interesting and fifaz is is no stranger to to scandals
and investigations, so just added added to the list.
Speaker 4 (21:21):
This is such a global experience and like Jason said,
this is going to take over the world here in
a few weeks. That's all everyone's going to talk about
in the world of sports. As we've been kind of
having a drum beat to it. But in your opinion,
which specific city or country around the world wins out
the most and as far as economics, as far as logistics,
vibes goodwill.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
It's a really good question. So the US is really
going to be the center of this World cupon Mexico
is going to have the opener and certainly the Mexican
and Canadian cities are going to be a significant part
of it. But three quarters of the games are in
the United States. Every game from the quarterfinals onwards is
in the United States. So the US is really going
to be a hub of it when you look at
(22:04):
who got the best games, and that's really going to determine,
you know, where fans end up going. I think the
games in Eastrotha, for New Jersey, just outside New York,
it's a really good slate, Like Miami got some games
that are really gonna light up Miami as well. And
then you look at a city like Kansas City for example,
that you know, Kansas City is the one. It's the
(22:25):
lowest profile of the eleven US cities for sure, and
I think people in Kansas City would admit that. And
so they're looking at the World Cup as a way
to just like elevate the prestige of the city. And
they got Argentina playing there and Argentina even setting up
their base camp there. England and the Netherlands also setting
up their base camp there, and there's a chance that
(22:47):
you know, they have one of the quarterfinals as well,
and there's a chance that that quarterfinal could be Argentina
against Portugal. You know, a lot of steps to go
to get there. So so some of this is going
to depend on how the matchups play out. But there
are certainly some cities that got better games than others,
and I think that the ones that I mentioned are
among the among the cities they got good ones.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
You know, you look at the business of soccer very
holistically for.
Speaker 3 (23:16):
Sort of building up what you're saying, beyond the performance
of what happens during this tournament, who stands to benefit
long term, whether that's through their local MLS team or
through just sort of a broad interest in soccer or
investments in the sports ecosystem, etc. And maybe that's part
(23:38):
of your answer for Kansas City or others.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
It's a really interesting question because a big part of
the story of the organization of this World Cup and
all the business around it is that FIFA has tried
to monopolize as much of the benefit as it can,
and so US Soccer and MLS and a lot of
these other entities have been trying to figure out how
(24:02):
to kind of draft off of it and get some benefit,
but it's been difficult for them because FIFA controls all
the revenue streams. They on the expense side, the cities
have to do a lot for FIFA and they don't
get much benefit in return. So it really is directly
FIFA is getting a lot of the benefit. Indirectly is
(24:24):
where you start thinking about all these other entities benefiting
from the growth and popularity of soccer in general. So,
like MLS might not be getting much direct revenue from
the World Cup, but if soccer grows and if MLS
is able to use smart marketing strategies to kind of
(24:45):
convert some of these fans who get hooked on soccer
from the World Cup into fans of the local MLS team,
then it does have that kind of indirect benefit. I
just think it's very difficult at this stage to a
quantify what that's going to be and be just can
like conceive how exactly, like how exactly is that going
(25:06):
to materialize itself over the next two months, next two
months and over the next five years fakly like, how
can it convert these people into long term soccer fans?
And we just don't know. It could happen in waves,
It could just be a momentary bump that doesn't really
have much of a long term impact. I'm not sure
we know yet.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
Yeah, it's interesting.
Speaker 3 (25:28):
I mean, we had Roger Bennett on the show, you know,
a few weeks ago, and you know it's his perspective,
as you're well equated with, is interesting because you know,
we pressed him pretty hard on this idea of the
future of soccer in America and you know, whether the
game is really going to catch on and his response,
(25:51):
Roger's response is essentially like, no, the boom has already happened.
The problem is is that most of the soccer fans
are tuning into NBC and Peacock on the weekends to
watch Premier League and they're not. I mean they are
They're definitively not tuning in to to the MLS. And
so I wonder, as someone who thinks about this and you,
(26:14):
I want to press you a little bit on something
you mentioned, is you know, can this have a real
effect on the MLS and what does that look like
like if you if you were to paint the best
case scenario, is it rising valuations, is it more fans,
is it better players coming to the United States on
the on the backs of this, like, what does success
(26:36):
for the domestic American league look like coming out of this.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
Yeah, it's really tough because MLS is doing great with
in stadium attendances, so they don't necessarily need all these
people to start buying tickets. Obviously that's good, you know,
not sure every MLS game sells out that there is
still room for growth there where they really need to grow.
There is, though, is with a TV deal, and the
(27:00):
TV of deal is largely tied to how popular your
players are and how good the product is, right, and
that's where I think MLS has missed a pretty big opportunity.
My colleague Pulton Oio at The Athletic has covered this
a ton and in fact wrote a whole book that
actually just launched today that dives into a lot of this.
(27:22):
But MLS failed to loosen its roster rules and salary
cap enough to be able to tract better players that
would really improve the products on the field in time
for this moment where you have a lot of eyes
on soccer, and they could have gotten to a point
(27:43):
maybe where MLS could have been positioned as pushing into
the top five leagues in the world and knocking on
the door the person who gets interested in soccer this
weekend or this month and next month. What reason do
they have to turn on an MLS game versus, as
you mentioned, an English Premier League game, or a real
Madrid game or a Lega a Mechi's game. In Mexico,
(28:06):
Soccer is very popular here, but it's the fandom is
very fractured and splintered and you know, divided between a
lot of different entities, and so MLS is fighting with
all those entities for eyeballs and they have to give
people a reason to tune in. And you can do
(28:27):
that with the in stadium environments and they've done a
really good job of that and making an MLS game
a fun experience on a Saturday night. But there's still
the broader TV ecosystem that I don't think they've really cracked.
Speaker 2 (28:45):
Yet, Henry.
Speaker 3 (28:46):
You know, the other backdrop to this World Cup has
obviously been if you build it, which they have, will
they come? Will they be able to get here? You know,
you get these sporadic reports. South Africa recently seem to
have some VSA issues even for their team and their
technical staff. What are you hearing from your sources around
(29:08):
sort of the trends as it relates to people actually
being able to get here and feeling feeling like they
want to and can be here to witness this World Cup.
Speaker 1 (29:17):
I would say that that is not as big a
problem as a lot of the reports over the past
couple of years have made it seem, largely because basically
because the bigger barrier is just the expense of attending
this World Cup, the cost and not just the cost
of tickets, the cost of flying to America, of staying
(29:41):
at hotels which you know, all jacked up their prices
to try to capitalize in the World Cup, of the
transport of just everyday things like food in the US,
like it's more expensive than a lot of countries around.
It's expensive to travel to the United States, and so
a lot of the people who can afford it have
had no trouble getting visas, and in large part are
(30:03):
from you know, relatively rich European countries who and they
don't feel unwelcome here in any way, whereas a lot
of the people from who would feel unwelcome here or
who would have trouble getting visas from the countries that
don't have the visa waiver program probably can't afford to
come to the World Cup anyway. Now there are exceptions,
because there are people who save up for years and
(30:25):
years to come to the World Cup and you know,
take out secking mortgages and etc.
Speaker 5 (30:30):
Etc.
Speaker 1 (30:30):
Like there are crazy soccer fans around the world who
will do anything to get to the World Cup and
who have done that and will be coming. But that's
this very small sub section of the fans. So I
think the big the bigger reason that not as many
people are going to be coming from abroad as we thought,
Like the main reason for that is just the cost
(30:52):
of this World Cup. But I also would say on
that point, like this World Cup is still going to
have a ton of international flavor because of the diaspora
in the United States, Right, Like the reason the World
Baseball Classic was such a smashing success was because like
think about how many Venezuela fans were in that stadium, right,
And so you're going to have a lot of for example,
(31:13):
Ecuadorian Americans who no matter where they are in the US,
they're going to go to Ecuador's games, Right. You're going
to have a lot of Japanese Americans, You're going to
you know, Iranian Americans out in La There are all
these diasporas that are really going to light up this
World Cup in a way that frankly, no other country
(31:35):
can like the US is a uniquely qualified to host
the World Cup in this way.
Speaker 4 (31:39):
I have a quick bonus one and I know Jason
wants to pivot and close, but real quick. I've always
have two daughters, twenty one and eighteen. I've always wanted
part of our bucket list. They just told me last
week they want to go to a soccer game but
in Europe, but experience Yankees versus Red Sox. So if
you gave me one recommendation and all our listeners, what's
the one place venue and who are they playing in
(32:02):
that venue?
Speaker 1 (32:03):
Wow, that's a really good question. I would say. I
think I'm actually gonna take you outside. If you want
a really crazy experience crazy, go to South America. Go
to Argentina. Boca Juniors against River Plate would be the
single best atmosphere that you could find. And one in
Europe and one in Europe. Man, there are a lot
(32:26):
of good ones in Europe. Uh, Bayern Munich against Bruceia
Dortmund in Germany is pretty darn is pretty darn good.
Speaker 5 (32:34):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (32:35):
You go to Celtic against Rangers in Scotland. Uh, you
know there are there are several ones in in England
that would be good. You know, Barcelona versus Real Madrid,
that's probably the best comparison to Red Sox Yankees. Actually, yeah,
Barcelona against Real Madrid in Spain is probably the best
best comparison.
Speaker 3 (32:52):
Okay, thank you, all right, So last question for you, Henry.
Speaker 2 (32:56):
That was a pretty good last question.
Speaker 3 (32:57):
But I'm gonna just like muscle in here, we're so
excited to read everything you write and talk about through
this World Cup. What's the story you're most excited to write,
Like as you think about the next month, Like, what's
the story you want us to be on the lookout
for that you just know that, like, regardless of like
how it's going to play out, it's just gonna be
(33:18):
a great storyline.
Speaker 1 (33:20):
Man. That's a good question because I think a lot
of what I'm excited about is that I don't think
we know what the story is gonna be. But I
think in general we talked about it a bit, but
like the world being introduced to American sports culture and
just all the contrasts and the cultural clashes that come
with that. Like I'm even just thinking about the opener
(33:40):
at Sofi Stadium. Sofi Stadium is an crazy venue, a right,
like most expensive stadium in the world, all these fancy
video boards. Paraguay, who plays against the United States in
the opener of that stadium, their national soccer stadium has
like four very simple video boards, not much advertising, you know,
(34:04):
it's just just very basic stadium where everything is focused
on what's happening on the field, whereas so far is
almost the opposite, right, the focus just gets drawn everywhere else.
And so it's just it's an entirely different sporting experience.
And I think having the World Cup in these venues
is it's just I don't I don't know exactly what
(34:24):
it's gonna feel like. I think a lot of people
coming don't know what's gonna hit them, and and I
think it's gonna be very interesting. From that perspective.
Speaker 3 (34:31):
It's great to think about, you know, not only how
will soccer change the US sporting scene and the future
of the sport here, but like how will how will.
Speaker 2 (34:42):
The US change the game? I mean, I mean, we'll
see that's.
Speaker 3 (34:45):
A that's a that's another episode that we'll have to
do with you down the line.
Speaker 2 (34:49):
Get your reaction.
Speaker 1 (34:50):
So it's the we like to call it the Americanization
of the World Cup is kind of how we're thinking
about it, Like, I think that's going to be the story.
Speaker 3 (34:59):
Well, we're looking for to reading that story and everything
else you produce. Henry Bushnell, thank you so much, senior
writer for The Athletic and going to be the busiest
guy on the planet over the next months or so.
So really grateful to get some of your time ahead
of it.
Speaker 2 (35:12):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (35:13):
Thanks guys.
Speaker 2 (35:18):
This episode was produced by Stacy Wong.
Speaker 3 (35:20):
Our senior producers are Alexis HoTT and Anamasarakus.
Speaker 5 (35:25):
Will Connelly is.
Speaker 3 (35:26):
Our video editor. Our theme music is made by Blake Maples.
Our executive producers are Ashley Zingaro and Amy Keene. Additional
support from Rachel Carnivale, Nick Silva, and Elena Los Angeles.
Thanks so much for listening to the deal. If you
have a minute, subscribe, rate and review our show. It'll
help other listeners find us. I'm Jason Kelly. See you
next week.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by Audiochuck Media Company.
The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show
The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show. Clay Travis and Buck Sexton tackle the biggest stories in news, politics and current events with intelligence and humor. From the border crisis, to the madness of cancel culture and far-left missteps, Clay and Buck guide listeners through the latest headlines and hot topics with fun and entertaining conversations and opinions.