January 12, 2026 • 35 mins
What are your rights if you’re stopped by a police officer? What evidence would you need to build a case if you were a victim of police misconduct? In this episode Nikki dives into the laws and protocols surrounding police conduct to share tips for how to navigate distressing situations with law enforcement.
US resources for Violence and Sexual Assault: https://rainn.org/
International resources for Violence and Sexual Assault: https://nomoredirectory.org/
US Suicide & Crisis Helpline: https://988lifeline.org/
International Suicide & Crisis Helplines: https://blog.opencounseling.com/suicide-hotlines/
To learn more about the National Police Accountability project, visit: https://www.nlg-npap.org/
The Girlfriends: Untouchable is produced by Novel for iHeart Podcasts. For more from Novel, visit https://novel.audio/.
You can listen to new episodes of The Girlfriends: Untouchable completely ad-free and 1 week early with an iHeart True Crime+ subscription, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, it's Nikki. I wanted to give you a heads
up that this episode will touch on police brutality, violence,
and sexual assault. You'll hear some tips for navigating interactions
with the police and some incredible gems of wisdom from
a woman I really respect. But we are not giving
official legal advice in this episode. If you or someone
(00:21):
you love has been affected by any of the themes
in the show, we've left some links in the description
that offer resources and support take care of yourself. One
of the questions that victims received the most, whether it's
from journalists, lawyers, or organizations shying away from accountability, is
(00:47):
why didn't you report it? The answers can be long
and complicated, but they often boil down to fear. In
Nico Quinn's case, it was the fear that no one
would believe her.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
I was young, I was in the streets, I wasn't
educated on the law.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
In Rose McIntyre's case, it was the fear of retaliation.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
If I did not do Wegguleupski wanted that he could
arrest greg or me, or both of us.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
If there's one thing we've learned in this series, it's
that there's power in speaking out like the brave women
of Kansas City did, but I understand why people don't.
It's a topic of conversation We've had quite a few
times at Justice for Why Not, including with lawyer Lauren Bonds.
(01:38):
She's on our board and it's also the executive director
of the National Police Accountability Project.
Speaker 3 (01:47):
I grew up black in Kansas. I went to law
school knowing I wanted to do social justice work and
be an advocate for communities and people who were trying
to make things happen, trying to make change, but we're
running into legal barriers. I didn't know exactly what that
would look like and what kind of work I'd be doing.
But that was the reason I went to law school
and I stuck with it.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
As she began to practice law in the field, Lauren
found herself drawn to certain cases.
Speaker 3 (02:15):
The work that I was always most passionate about was
the work on behalf of people who had been harmed
by the police or in prisons, in jails. I always
felt those clients felt like family, they felt like people
I knew, and I always just kind of had the
most passion for their cases.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
She joined the National Police Accountability Project, a nonprofit dedicated
to ending law enforcement abuse through legal action and educational programming.
Lauren is their executive director and she spends her days
working on stories like the ones we've heard. But as
someone who grew up in Casey K, she knows just
how intimidating speaking out can be.
Speaker 3 (02:57):
Casey K is a very insular into great, integrated community
where you absolutely could face retaliation, and I think that
that's a real risk that everybody has to deal with
when they come forward to report police violence or police misconduct.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
But there's value in speaking out.
Speaker 3 (03:14):
Police are harming a lot of people regardless of whether
they're speaking out or not. The adra lord, your silence
won't protect you is so sadly so true when it
comes to police departments with really severe histories of misconduct
and abusing communities.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
Speaking out can be daunting, terrifying at times, but the
police are supposed to be here to protect us. So
it's about time we learn how to work with law
enforcement and equip ourselves with the knowledge of what to
do if they fail you. In this series, we've explored
(03:58):
stories of police misconducduct in Kansas City, Kansas, and how
people try to fight it. But this isn't just happening
in casey K. There's cases of the police abusing their
power across the country and around the world. So in
this episode, we'll explore how to fight police misconduct in
your community and what to do if you are someone
(04:19):
you love is a victim of police abuse. I'm Nicki
Richardson and from the teams at Novel and iHeart Podcasts.
This is the Girlfriend's Untouchable Bonus, Episode three, A Girlfriend's
Guide to Navigating police misconduct. Pretty Much every black parent
(04:50):
I know has set their kids down and given them
the talk, not the birds and the bees, the what
to do if you get approached by the police or
someone in a position of authority.
Speaker 4 (05:02):
Talk.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
It's a dark right of passage. But in a country
where black people are more likely to be killed by
the police, arrested for crimes they didn't commit, and treated
with excessive force, it's a necessary conversation. But besides putting
your hands up and complying, what are you actually supposed
to do when you interact with the police. I asked
(05:26):
Lauren to explain the rights we have as civilians interacting
with law enforcement. However, this is just a conversation. While
Lauren is a lawyer. We won't be providing official legal
advice in this episode. Every situation is different, and these
are just general guidelines that may not apply in every circumstance.
Speaker 3 (05:46):
I think a lot of people probably know this already.
But your right to remain silent, your right to counsel.
I think that those things are drilled into you, even
if you just watch kind of TV, that you have
those rights, but it's often, you know, harder to exercise them,
particularly when you're getting these kind of ultimatums, when you're
getting these threats from officers. I think it's really important
(06:08):
that folks know that they can assert those and that
right to remain silent, that's not just something you can do,
it's something that you should do. And the right to counsel,
that's not only something that you can do, it's something that.
Speaker 5 (06:18):
You should do.
Speaker 3 (06:19):
There are actually a lot of situations where you don't
even have to interact with the police if you don't
want to. One of the things that we always tell
activists communities who are over policed is the first question
you should ask a police officer if they've stopped you,
if they're interacting with you, is are you free to
go because a lot of times, you know, police officers
are trained to engage in these interactions until they're able
(06:40):
to get what's called probable cause, which allows them to
search you, detain you, arrest you. But when they initially
stop you, they might not have a basis to stop you,
and you might be free to end the conversation. So
I think the kind of best advice we have for
somebody who's interacting with the police is just to ask
them directly whether you have to be there and whether
you're are going to require you to talk to them,
(07:02):
And you know, a lot of the times when you
do that, they say no, you're free to leave. I
think it's really important to not trust the police when
they say, oh, I just have a few questions, you're
not in trouble. You tell me this and then I'll
be able to go. You let me search this and
then or otherwise I'll have to take you. In a
lot of those times, those kind of threats and those
ultimatums that you're getting from police officers aren't valid and
(07:24):
they aren't true. Oftentimes, if you say no, I'm still
not going to consent to you searching my car, they're
ultimately going to let you go if you don't consent.
Sometimes officers will say I'm going to take you in
or follow me to the station, even just asking do
I have to or I'm not going to.
Speaker 5 (07:40):
I do think that that's another thing you should look
out for.
Speaker 3 (07:42):
So even if they're being nice, don't open the door
to more questioning or more involvement.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
However, you have to prioritize your safety.
Speaker 3 (07:52):
The most important advice, obviously is to stay safe. If
an officer is getting aggressive, escalating, kind of yelling at you,
that might not be time to assert your rights. It's
a sad truth and I hate saying it as a
civil rights advocate, but like the most important thing is
that you get out of there alive. There's a huge
threat of violence when you're interacting with a police officer,
particularly if you're black, particularly if you're a black man.
(08:14):
I think anytime an officer is screaming at you to
show your hands, if they're saying anything that's indicating that
they think you're armed, that is not a time to run.
That is not a time to get rid of anything.
Just show your hands. That's all you do. If you
have a weapon on you, even if they're saying, drop
the weapon.
Speaker 5 (08:30):
Don't pull out your weapon to drop it.
Speaker 3 (08:32):
I think we've seen so many horrific and tragic situations
where men have been shot or people have been shot
because they're trying to comply with an officer's command to
throw the gun.
Speaker 5 (08:42):
Show the gun, drop the gun, just show your hands.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
But what if you're not the person being questioned, detained,
or arrested by the police. What if you're a witness
to a crime or something that looks like police misconduct.
Speaker 3 (08:55):
As a witness, if you see a police interaction, you
have the right to record. A lot of states have
passed different laws saying that you know, you can't be
within twenty five feet or whatever. A lot of those
are facing legal challenges, But as long as you're not
interfering with the officer's ability to do their job, you
have every right to record. And civilians and witnesses recording
(09:15):
these situations have been really important for accountability.
Speaker 5 (09:19):
And so not only can.
Speaker 3 (09:20):
You, I would you know, encourage people that they should
do that if they see something concerning, they have the
right to do that under the First Amendment.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
If you do agree to answer questions as a witness,
you're not always required to see the entire process through.
Speaker 3 (09:35):
Ultimately, in most situations, you have the right to not
cooperate with the police. If you initially want to raise
something and then at some point it feels like they're
trying to collect evidence on you or a family member
or whatever it may be, you have the right to
stop communicating at any point. So I think until you
get some indication from a prosecutor or someone kind of
(09:58):
outside of the police department that you a absolutely have
to participate, you can exercise your right not to participate
at any point, even if you are the one who
initiated the charges, even if you are the one who
went to the police, you do have the right to
go to a different officer within the department, or you're
a different investigator or a different detective if there is
something that is uncomfortable in the lead detective you think
(10:21):
they're doing something wrong, calling even just the precinct where
they're based, or just getting in contact with their supervisor
to say, hey, these.
Speaker 5 (10:29):
Are my concerns.
Speaker 3 (10:30):
That's something you have the right to do, and I
would also flag you can have an attorney, You can
be represented as a witness, having a legal advocate to
kind of protect your rights and make sure that there
aren't any lines being crossed and that detectives or officers
aren't using the investigative process in a way that could
be weaponized against you at a later point.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
So those are your rights, but what do you do
if a police officer violates them? That's coming up after
the break.
Speaker 4 (11:19):
I got you.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
Police misconduct. It's a phrase we've mentioned a few times,
but there isn't a quick and easy definition. It can
cover a wide range of things, from excessive force to
sexual assault. But if you or someone you love has
ever left a police interaction and gotten the feeling that
something just isn't quite right, it can be daunting to
(11:44):
try and figure out what to do next. So I
asked Lauren what advice she.
Speaker 3 (11:49):
Would give if you've been a victim of police violence.
I think one of the most important first steps that
you can take is making sure that you seek immediate
medical attention. If it as something that was physical, whether
that was kind of an incident of excessive force where
you were harmed or beaten by the police, whether you
know it was a sexual assault, whatever it was, if
there was some kind of harm or injury you experienced,
(12:13):
it's very important that you get medical treatment quickly, not
only so you're healthy and that you can make sure
that you don't have any long term health consequences from
the event, but it's also very important for preserving your
rights and you know, helping your case. Emotional injuries are
very important to address quickly as well, So if you
can get into counseling, if you can get into psychiatric treatment,
(12:36):
that's going to be really important because these events are
traumatic and if it's not addressed, if it's kind of
pushed down, it could have real consequences for your health
long term. And you know, aside from that, if you
were to pursue a legal case, it's important to kind
of show that you were taking steps to take care
of yourself. Having corroborating counseling records is helpful to that end.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
The next step build up the evidence you might need
if you decide to report what happened or take legal action.
Speaker 5 (13:04):
See if there are any witnesses.
Speaker 3 (13:06):
Ringing cameras are all around, there are people with cell
phones all around, So even if you can't get access
to any of those videos, noting where they are, noting
who the people were who were involved, or could potentially
be witnesses, and getting their contact information is really important
because so many of these situations, even with body more
and cameras, even with dash cameras, it might be a
(13:28):
he said, she said situation, And you want to have
all the kind of corroborating evidence, or at least no
way to go about getting that evidence after it happens.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
What happens if you don't want to report it. Though
we've heard from so many women who for their own
various reasons, were too scared or traumatized to talk about
what happened to them. Nobody should ever force or pressure
you into feeling like you have to share your story.
That's a personal choice, and I can understand why so
many people would want to keep bit to themselves, but
(14:02):
there's still value in taking notes. They think it goes
to the fact that you may change your mind. You
may be in a place emotionally, spiritually, mentally where you
feel like you can pursue accountability and justice, and having
those kind of records and having that information is going
to allow you to do that in the future. I
would also say, though you know, kind of independent of
(14:23):
whether you want to seek that relief for yourself, or not.
One thing that we see over and over with all
types of police violence is there are repeat bad actors.
If this person did this thing to you, it's very
likely that they're going to do it to somebody else.
I think probably ninety nine percent of my clients, people
that I've represented in police misconduct cases, their number one
(14:44):
priority is making sure that what the experience doesn't happen
to anybody else, and making sure that officer has to
deal with the consequences of their actions. And you know
that can't happen if people don't come forward, and so
having that record and being able to turn it over
to somebody who'd suffered the same experience as you and
does want to pursue justice can be a way to
support them. If you do decide to take action, you
(15:08):
can file an internal affairs report.
Speaker 3 (15:11):
Most police departments do have kind of an online option
to submit a civilian complaint about an officer. There are
a lot of barriers in some places. I think Texas
is one of the states where you have to do
a kind of notarized signature if you're going to submit
any complaint on an officer, which is wild and difficult
and definitely is deterring people from filing those types of complaints.
(15:34):
But for the most part, there usually is information on
a particular police department's website. Even if there isn't, I
would say, even just writing a letter or an email
to a general inbox, you might get back from them like, oh,
we don't look into this, or we can't tell you
what we're going to do with it. Making those documentations
is very important for being able to point to that
(15:55):
at a later date and say, this police department was
on notice, this agency was on notice. They heard all
these different complaints and they didn't do anything. And I
think the reason that that's important is because so often
we focus on individual bad actors in police departments, but
we don't look at the role that the institution plays
in enabling them. And so often that comes in the
form of ignoring civilian complaints, internal affairs complaints. And the
(16:19):
way you can prove that they're being ignored and the
community concerns are being ignored is to file on every
single incident.
Speaker 1 (16:25):
What if you do seek medical attention, speak to a therapist,
gather up information, but then get scared of facing retaliation
while staying quiet may feel like the safer option. Sometimes
you protect yourself more by speaking out. In some ways,
being public protects you. Like the more you're out there,
(16:45):
the more people are gonna worry about you.
Speaker 3 (16:47):
People are going to know about you and worry about
you if something happens, and people are going to connect
the dots. If you are publicly saying, hey, this happened
to me and then suddenly arrested for some bogus charge,
people are going to two and two together, and that's
going to be a form of protection in a way.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
As we've heard in this series, the police aren't necessarily
the best people to reach out to when it comes
to reporting this conduct at the hands of their colleagues.
So another avenue to justice may be seeking out legal advice.
Speaker 3 (17:16):
You have to find an attorney. That's really, really important.
I'll plug the National Police Accountability Projects Public Attorney Directory.
We have attorneys in every single state in the United States,
over five hundred and fifty across the country who will
do a free consultation. Who will you know, look at
your case and be able to advise you on next steps.
I think one of the most important things folks should
(17:38):
know when they're going into this process is to make
sure that they're comfortable with the person. You know. Lawyers
sometimes can be charming charismatic because they have to like
talk in front of jury's But make sure that there's
authenticity behind that and that there's care behind that. And
I think one of the ways you can figure out
a good read on that is how many questions are
they asking about you as a person, about your loved one?
(17:59):
Are they interest and who they were? Are they interested
in who you are? I would say another thing that's
important when you're looking at an attorney is kind of
having an explicit conversation of like do you drop cases?
Speaker 5 (18:10):
Do you push your clients to accept settlements?
Speaker 3 (18:13):
Have you ever fired a client before, dropped representation of
a client before? And what were the circumstances around that
if we get a settlement offer?
Speaker 5 (18:21):
Like whose decision is that?
Speaker 3 (18:22):
Are you going to push me to accept an offer
or are you going to let that be my decision
and stick with me even if you disagree with it.
I think another thing is to just see what qushions
they ask you. Are they asking you about what your
goals are? If you tell them something that's kind of
negative about oh, my son who was killed, he did
have a gun, or you know, he did have this
on his Facebook page, Like what's their reaction?
Speaker 5 (18:44):
Is that like that is bad?
Speaker 3 (18:46):
Or is that everyone's human and you know he's a kid,
and just kind of seeing how they view you as
a person and view your loved one if they're suing
on behalf of your loved one.
Speaker 5 (18:54):
So it's definitely not a science.
Speaker 3 (18:55):
You're kind of like kind of feeling someone out like
you would just as inter personally. But there are specific
questions you can ask, and I think that there are
certain questions you should make sure that you see if
they're asking you to determine if they're going to be
a good fit.
Speaker 1 (19:08):
Like me, Lauren has spent time with dozens of people
who've had a really tough experience navigating the justice system.
Seeing a lawsuit through can have a real emotional toll
on you, so it's important to weigh up whether taking
legal action is actually the best option.
Speaker 3 (19:26):
The first question we ask somebody who comes forward and
says I'm considering filing a civil rights lawsuit is what
do you want to get out of this? What are
your goals? I think it's always really important to figure
out what you're trying to get out of the process.
If it's accountability, if you want to put a spotlight
on what happened, you could do just a media campaign
without all the kind of issues that come along with
a civil rights lawsuit. If it's some kind of external
(19:49):
accountability from the internal affairs department, but you don't want
to kind of sit down and be in a civil
rights lawsuit for three to four years, we might say, oh,
a civilian complaint review board my be a better route
for you where you can get someone other than the
police department to look at this, that there might be
some form of accountability. If it's monetary relief or if
you have like issues from the interaction that you're trying
(20:11):
to get compensation for, that might be a route. Well,
you absolutely have to do a civil rights lawsuit in
addition to kind of what are your goals would you
want to get out of this, Like what are your
concerns If retaliation is one of your concerns, you can
file lawsuits as kind of a Jane Doe. Usually in
certain communities and small communities. It's hard once you kind
of put all the facts out there to really protect
(20:32):
someone's identity, but there are ways that you can file
lawsuits confidentially, things can be filed under seal. And then
I think, you know, another thing that's really important in
terms of providing advice on taking legal action is really
making sure people understand what it entails.
Speaker 5 (20:47):
Right. It's not just kind of I file a lawsuit.
Speaker 3 (20:49):
Six months later, you know the court will say yes
or no about whether I'm right or not. These cases
take a really long time. They're really slow. You have
to sit for a deposition, you have to turn over
your metical records, you have to turn over sometimes your
cell phone records.
Speaker 5 (21:03):
Like it's very invasive.
Speaker 3 (21:04):
You really have to kind of open up your life
to the police department that you're suing in the court.
Speaker 5 (21:08):
It can be really dehumanizing.
Speaker 3 (21:10):
People really need to be aware that's going to happen
and be okay with that. And there are certain accommodations
we can make to address specific concerns, but at the
end of the day, you really have to make a
lot of sacrifices to pursue legal action, and so we
always want to be transparent about that and make sure
people are coming into the process fully informed about that.
(21:30):
And also I think to that point, it won't just
be you right, like your kid might have to be deposed,
your kid might have their cells, phone records subpoena. Like,
just making sure that there's a real understanding of what
is ahead and what this process will entail is a
big part of the conversation when someone wants to take
legal actions. I think it really is just kind of
(21:50):
having a conversation about, like, what what's the worst thing
we're going to find out in this process, Like what's
the worst.
Speaker 5 (21:56):
Thing you wouldn't want anyone to know?
Speaker 3 (21:57):
It is really important that people go into civil rights
lawsuits or any kind of legal action with eyes wide open,
But it can also be really empowering in the same
way that you kind of have to sit and have
the spotlight on you, so do they?
Speaker 1 (22:16):
Legal action can be the solution to getting justice in
individual cases of police misconduct, but as we know, the
problem runs much deeper than just a few bad apples.
So why have so many instances of police misconduct gone
unpunished and why can police departments seem so untouchable. That's
(22:40):
after the.
Speaker 2 (22:41):
Break you and got you.
Speaker 1 (22:56):
The sexual as sought allegations against Detective Glubski, and the
murders that sparked the Black Lives Matter Movement are just
a few of the many times police misconduct has become
the topic of national conversation. It was a case in
the nineties that led to the creation of the National
Police Accountability Project.
Speaker 3 (23:15):
A group of progressive attorneys saw what had happened to
Rodney King and said, hey, Rodney King isn't the only
Rodney King out there. There are so many people have
been harmed by the police. We should be taking their
cases now. It was at a time when there weren't
a lot of people doing this work, and so they
started filing these civil rights cases on behalf of victims
of police abuse and saw that there are all these
(23:35):
complicated legal doctrines and barriers that they were running into,
and so said, we should start making sure that we're
pulling our resources and our knowledge together so we can
be more successful. And NPAP was formed as a way
to do that, and for about fifteen twenty years that's
really what the organization did, was this kind of space
for attorneys who were suing the police in jails and
(23:56):
prisons to get together and share intel and information. After
the murder of George Floyd that there was a recognition
by the leadership of the organization that we could be
doing more to affect systemic reforms and make sure that
not only were we addressing police violence after it happened,
but that we were stopping it and enacting different reforms
to stop it before it happened in the first place.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
So the NPAP began working on lawsuits and taking legal
action against jails, prisons, and police departments that were found
to have repeatedly engaged in misconduct. But some of the
hurdles they've come up against get in the way of
true police accountability.
Speaker 3 (24:35):
I would say, really at the top are police unions.
The collective bargaining agreements that are in place, which are
the agreements between the police department and the city, create
all these protections that make it incredibly hard even to
start disciplinary proceedings, make it hard to do internal investigations.
So even if you bring in a chief who really
(24:55):
wants to make sure that his officers aren't doing something wrong,
that they're being suspen or disciplined or terminated when they
do something wrong, oftentimes they can't carry that out because
of how immense the protections in a collective bargaining agreement are.
I would say another big barrier is political will. In
twenty twenty and twenty twenty one, we saw a lot
(25:16):
of steps towards accountability. We saw a lot of steps
towards reform, but so many of those have been clawed
back at the state and federal level because of this
narrative that we have about crime increasing, and all those
things together have been some of the barriers to even
kind of these baseline reforms being enacted.
Speaker 1 (25:33):
There are many activists, especially in over policed communities, that
argue that the police can't be reformed, that the best
solution is to defund or abolish them. Cities like Austin
in Seattle have diverted millions of dollars away from their
police force and into services that tackle homelessness, public housing,
and social care, but other cities have tried and backtracked
(25:56):
after realizing they weren't fully prepared for the work of
reallocating funds or the effect that reducing the police could
have on preventing crime. I've seen firsthand the harm that
the police can have on a community, but like other activists,
I've made the choice to try and work with the
authorities to enact reform. It's not a path that everyone
(26:18):
agrees with and I can understand why. So I ask
Lauren why she's chosen to do the same in spite
of all the barriers.
Speaker 3 (26:27):
People are killed by the police every day in America,
and you know, we can't just say, oh, let's dream
of a better future, because you know, police are always
going to be trash.
Speaker 5 (26:36):
People need relief and help right now.
Speaker 3 (26:38):
I think that there's a lot of policy merits to
abolition and defund, but I think we are at a
place where we're kind of meeting the system where it's
at in trying to make sure that people who are
harmed today have some form of relief or like that
the bare minimum is happening in terms of accountability, because
when you look at it, people.
Speaker 5 (26:55):
Are saying, you know, this doesn't work. Reform doesn't work.
Speaker 3 (26:58):
But very few police departments have actually enacted any kind
of meaningful reforms. Even our existing thoughts of what accountability
systems should be aren't in place. And so I think
the kind of approach we have NPAP and the reason
that I'm passionate about working at this organization is because
it's really meeting real needs. And so even if these
are incremental changes or small changes, if it's you making
(27:21):
that three people killed by the police one person killed
by police every day. That's important. That's important to those
families who aren't going to live with the loved one
to police violence. That's important to communities that might feel
even slightly less over policed, and they can have a
real impact. And so that's kind of our approach and
our thought process around the steps that we're taking to
change policing.
Speaker 1 (27:41):
Lauren has seen the impact that challenging the police to
enact reform can have. She told me about a case
she's working one that involves a police department in a
small town in the South, a state where the government
hasn't done much to push back against police misconduct.
Speaker 3 (27:57):
I mean, there was just zero accountability there a small town.
Speaker 5 (28:00):
There wasn't a civilian review board.
Speaker 3 (28:02):
You know, the mayor and the city council were all
very close with the police department. But it was a
place where there was incredible amounts of abuse.
Speaker 5 (28:10):
There were these roadblocks that.
Speaker 3 (28:12):
Were being erected, you know, kind of blocking the street
and kind of like a military takeover almost and targeting
black citizens, the majority of black town. Targeting black citizens
for ticketing and stops in searches of their vehicle. We
came in, we filed a lawsuit, and even though that
lawsuit is ongoing, as soon as we filed the lawsuit,
there were a number of changes, right, Like all these
(28:33):
things that people were going to city council meetings complaining
about and had been ignored. Once there was a lawsuit
and there was a spotlight on them, they started cleaning
up their act, not completely, but in terms of reducing
the number of roadblocks that they were erecting, you know,
being more thoughtful about like who they were arresting, using
less force, and incidents, giving people the benefit of the
doubt instead of tickets. Just lived the very fact of
(28:56):
filing a lawsuit and putting a spotlight on the situation
and saying, hey, these are actually legal violations and we
feel so serious about them, we're willing to take them
to a federal court. That having a kind of immediate
change in people's lives was really rewarding and really encouraging.
And they recently elected a new mayor who's a very
kind of reform minded mayor.
Speaker 5 (29:16):
So I think only better things are to come.
Speaker 3 (29:18):
And so I would just say that, you know, a
lot of times there are these police departments that feel
like they are just so rotted to the core that
they can't change and that there's no way it's going
to get better or policing as a whole is going
to get better. But I think we as civilians, we
as people in the community, really have more control over
that than we give ourselves credit for. When we stand up,
(29:38):
when we push back, when we put a spotlight on somewhere,
things aren't going to completely change.
Speaker 5 (29:42):
There's still going to be problems.
Speaker 3 (29:43):
I think that there are some fundamental flaws with policing
that aren't going to be fixed for a long time,
but even these kind of incremental changes can have a
huge impact.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
So what do you do if you're seeing instances of
police misconduct in your community? What kadjian A and other
activists in our community did was to keep showing up,
asking questions and challenging the authorities. It can be easy
to fall into us versus them mentality, and in cases
(30:13):
like the ones we've heard, it does often feel that way.
But the police and local government are supposed to work
for us make our community safer. So it's essential that
regular people take it upon themselves to fight for accountability,
because if we don't do it?
Speaker 5 (30:32):
Who will If.
Speaker 3 (30:34):
You're seeing something wrong, if you're like feeling like this
just isn't working, if you're feeling like you don't know
what steps to take in order to improve the police
department or policing in your community. Step one is to
do some self education, right like who is your police chief?
Speaker 5 (30:47):
Is he elected? Okay?
Speaker 3 (30:48):
If he's elected, Like when's his next campaign? Is there
somebody we can get to run against him? I think
really Step one is getting the information if you're seeing
a lot of use of force, like, can I do
an open records request and get access to the use
of force policy and see if that's where the problem
is coming from?
Speaker 5 (31:04):
Is this an issue with training?
Speaker 3 (31:05):
So really figuring out like what is the source of
these problems and getting that information. I feel like it's
such an important step and can be so empowering. And
once you're educated, you should really feel empowered to kind
of educate others, elected officials.
Speaker 5 (31:18):
Your other people in your community.
Speaker 3 (31:21):
You have more allies out there than you know, and
so kind of showing up at city council meetings, at
police accountability board meetings if you have one, and then
you know, I think in this world where we have
so much digital advocacy, Like just looking and seeing who
else is out there, who else is doing this work,
and plugging in, you're going to find like minded folks,
and together you're going to be able to make a
(31:41):
bigger splash than you could alone.
Speaker 1 (31:44):
Activism can seem exciting and empowering at first, but the
road to progress can be long and frustrating. If I'm honest,
Kadjia and I have probably experienced more disappointments than major
wins fighting.
Speaker 3 (32:01):
I don't think it's an option to say we just
have to deal with this, we just have to give up,
we just have to wait for something else to happen.
Like people are suffering right now. People are dealing with
police violence right now, they're dealing with all kinds of
misconduct and harm. We have to keep doing this work,
and we should feel inspired to do this work because
there are so many people who are being so brave
(32:22):
and stepping forward and saying, you know, this happened to me,
and I don't think it should happen to anybody else.
We should stand by them and stand with them, because
we're always more effective when we're working together than working alone.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
A huge thank you to Lauren Bonds for joining us
and sharing all her wisdom. I hope this episode gave
you some practical insights on how to know your rights
and advocate for you your loved ones in your local community.
If you want to learn more about the National Police
Accountability Project.
Speaker 3 (32:56):
Follow us on Instagram. We are in pap Justice on Instagram.
We provide just about all of our updates on there.
We're also on Blue Sky same handle, and we have
a website as well, National Police Accountability Project, So just
google us you will find us around.
Speaker 1 (33:17):
In the next episode of The Girlfriend's Untouchable, our producer
Raufaro will be speaking to District Attorney Mark dupri about
how to weed out corruption and make a change.
Speaker 5 (33:29):
It's one thing to know corruption exists. It's a whole
other thing when.
Speaker 4 (33:35):
You're actually in the system and you're the DA and
you actually have the evidence to show I wasn't driven.
Speaker 5 (33:47):
It was a shock.
Speaker 4 (33:48):
I was like, oh wow.
Speaker 1 (33:56):
The Girlfriend's Untouchable is produced by Novels for iHeart Podcast.
For more from novel visit novel dot Audio. The show
is narrated by me Nicki Richardson. It was written and
produced by Rufarro Mazarura. The editor is Joe Wheeler. Our
assistant producer is Mohammed Ahmed. The researcher is Zaiyana Yusef.
(34:20):
Production management from Shuri Houston and Joe Savage. The fact
checker is Fndell Fulton. Sound design, mixing and scoring by
Daniel Kimpson with additional engineering by Nicholas Alexander. Music supervision
by Rufarro Masarua, Nicholas Alexander and Joe Wheeler. Original music
by Amanda Jones. The series artwork was designed by Christina Limpool.
(34:45):
Novel's Director of Development is Selena Metta. Willard Foxton is
Novel's creative director of Development. Max O'Brien and Craig Strachan
are executive producers for Novel. Katrina Norvel and Nicki Etour
are the executive producers for iHeart Podcasts, and the marketing
lead is Alison Cantor. Special thanks to Will Pearson and
(35:07):
his special thanks to Carley Frankel and the whole team
at w ME
Hey, it's Nikki. I wanted to give you a heads
up that this episode will touch on police brutality, violence,
and sexual assault. You'll hear some tips for navigating interactions
with the police and some incredible gems of wisdom from
a woman I really respect. But we are not giving
official legal advice in this episode. If you or someone
(00:21):
you love has been affected by any of the themes
in the show, we've left some links in the description
that offer resources and support take care of yourself. One
of the questions that victims received the most, whether it's
from journalists, lawyers, or organizations shying away from accountability, is
(00:47):
why didn't you report it? The answers can be long
and complicated, but they often boil down to fear. In
Nico Quinn's case, it was the fear that no one
would believe her.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
I was young, I was in the streets, I wasn't
educated on the law.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
In Rose McIntyre's case, it was the fear of retaliation.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
If I did not do Wegguleupski wanted that he could
arrest greg or me, or both of us.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
If there's one thing we've learned in this series, it's
that there's power in speaking out like the brave women
of Kansas City did, but I understand why people don't.
It's a topic of conversation We've had quite a few
times at Justice for Why Not, including with lawyer Lauren Bonds.
(01:38):
She's on our board and it's also the executive director
of the National Police Accountability Project.
Speaker 3 (01:47):
I grew up black in Kansas. I went to law
school knowing I wanted to do social justice work and
be an advocate for communities and people who were trying
to make things happen, trying to make change, but we're
running into legal barriers. I didn't know exactly what that
would look like and what kind of work I'd be doing.
But that was the reason I went to law school
and I stuck with it.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
As she began to practice law in the field, Lauren
found herself drawn to certain cases.
Speaker 3 (02:15):
The work that I was always most passionate about was
the work on behalf of people who had been harmed
by the police or in prisons, in jails. I always
felt those clients felt like family, they felt like people
I knew, and I always just kind of had the
most passion for their cases.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
She joined the National Police Accountability Project, a nonprofit dedicated
to ending law enforcement abuse through legal action and educational programming.
Lauren is their executive director and she spends her days
working on stories like the ones we've heard. But as
someone who grew up in Casey K, she knows just
how intimidating speaking out can be.
Speaker 3 (02:57):
Casey K is a very insular into great, integrated community
where you absolutely could face retaliation, and I think that
that's a real risk that everybody has to deal with
when they come forward to report police violence or police misconduct.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
But there's value in speaking out.
Speaker 3 (03:14):
Police are harming a lot of people regardless of whether
they're speaking out or not. The adra lord, your silence
won't protect you is so sadly so true when it
comes to police departments with really severe histories of misconduct
and abusing communities.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
Speaking out can be daunting, terrifying at times, but the
police are supposed to be here to protect us. So
it's about time we learn how to work with law
enforcement and equip ourselves with the knowledge of what to
do if they fail you. In this series, we've explored
(03:58):
stories of police misconducduct in Kansas City, Kansas, and how
people try to fight it. But this isn't just happening
in casey K. There's cases of the police abusing their
power across the country and around the world. So in
this episode, we'll explore how to fight police misconduct in
your community and what to do if you are someone
(04:19):
you love is a victim of police abuse. I'm Nicki
Richardson and from the teams at Novel and iHeart Podcasts.
This is the Girlfriend's Untouchable Bonus, Episode three, A Girlfriend's
Guide to Navigating police misconduct. Pretty Much every black parent
(04:50):
I know has set their kids down and given them
the talk, not the birds and the bees, the what
to do if you get approached by the police or
someone in a position of authority.
Speaker 4 (05:02):
Talk.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
It's a dark right of passage. But in a country
where black people are more likely to be killed by
the police, arrested for crimes they didn't commit, and treated
with excessive force, it's a necessary conversation. But besides putting
your hands up and complying, what are you actually supposed
to do when you interact with the police. I asked
(05:26):
Lauren to explain the rights we have as civilians interacting
with law enforcement. However, this is just a conversation. While
Lauren is a lawyer. We won't be providing official legal
advice in this episode. Every situation is different, and these
are just general guidelines that may not apply in every circumstance.
Speaker 3 (05:46):
I think a lot of people probably know this already.
But your right to remain silent, your right to counsel.
I think that those things are drilled into you, even
if you just watch kind of TV, that you have
those rights, but it's often, you know, harder to exercise them,
particularly when you're getting these kind of ultimatums, when you're
getting these threats from officers. I think it's really important
(06:08):
that folks know that they can assert those and that
right to remain silent, that's not just something you can do,
it's something that you should do. And the right to counsel,
that's not only something that you can do, it's something that.
Speaker 5 (06:18):
You should do.
Speaker 3 (06:19):
There are actually a lot of situations where you don't
even have to interact with the police if you don't
want to. One of the things that we always tell
activists communities who are over policed is the first question
you should ask a police officer if they've stopped you,
if they're interacting with you, is are you free to
go because a lot of times, you know, police officers
are trained to engage in these interactions until they're able
(06:40):
to get what's called probable cause, which allows them to
search you, detain you, arrest you. But when they initially
stop you, they might not have a basis to stop you,
and you might be free to end the conversation. So
I think the kind of best advice we have for
somebody who's interacting with the police is just to ask
them directly whether you have to be there and whether
you're are going to require you to talk to them,
(07:02):
And you know, a lot of the times when you
do that, they say no, you're free to leave. I
think it's really important to not trust the police when
they say, oh, I just have a few questions, you're
not in trouble. You tell me this and then I'll
be able to go. You let me search this and
then or otherwise I'll have to take you. In a
lot of those times, those kind of threats and those
ultimatums that you're getting from police officers aren't valid and
(07:24):
they aren't true. Oftentimes, if you say no, I'm still
not going to consent to you searching my car, they're
ultimately going to let you go if you don't consent.
Sometimes officers will say I'm going to take you in
or follow me to the station, even just asking do
I have to or I'm not going to.
Speaker 5 (07:40):
I do think that that's another thing you should look
out for.
Speaker 3 (07:42):
So even if they're being nice, don't open the door
to more questioning or more involvement.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
However, you have to prioritize your safety.
Speaker 3 (07:52):
The most important advice, obviously is to stay safe. If
an officer is getting aggressive, escalating, kind of yelling at you,
that might not be time to assert your rights. It's
a sad truth and I hate saying it as a
civil rights advocate, but like the most important thing is
that you get out of there alive. There's a huge
threat of violence when you're interacting with a police officer,
particularly if you're black, particularly if you're a black man.
(08:14):
I think anytime an officer is screaming at you to
show your hands, if they're saying anything that's indicating that
they think you're armed, that is not a time to run.
That is not a time to get rid of anything.
Just show your hands. That's all you do. If you
have a weapon on you, even if they're saying, drop
the weapon.
Speaker 5 (08:30):
Don't pull out your weapon to drop it.
Speaker 3 (08:32):
I think we've seen so many horrific and tragic situations
where men have been shot or people have been shot
because they're trying to comply with an officer's command to
throw the gun.
Speaker 5 (08:42):
Show the gun, drop the gun, just show your hands.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
But what if you're not the person being questioned, detained,
or arrested by the police. What if you're a witness
to a crime or something that looks like police misconduct.
Speaker 3 (08:55):
As a witness, if you see a police interaction, you
have the right to record. A lot of states have
passed different laws saying that you know, you can't be
within twenty five feet or whatever. A lot of those
are facing legal challenges, But as long as you're not
interfering with the officer's ability to do their job, you
have every right to record. And civilians and witnesses recording
(09:15):
these situations have been really important for accountability.
Speaker 5 (09:19):
And so not only can.
Speaker 3 (09:20):
You, I would you know, encourage people that they should
do that if they see something concerning, they have the
right to do that under the First Amendment.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
If you do agree to answer questions as a witness,
you're not always required to see the entire process through.
Speaker 3 (09:35):
Ultimately, in most situations, you have the right to not
cooperate with the police. If you initially want to raise
something and then at some point it feels like they're
trying to collect evidence on you or a family member
or whatever it may be, you have the right to
stop communicating at any point. So I think until you
get some indication from a prosecutor or someone kind of
(09:58):
outside of the police department that you a absolutely have
to participate, you can exercise your right not to participate
at any point, even if you are the one who
initiated the charges, even if you are the one who
went to the police, you do have the right to
go to a different officer within the department, or you're
a different investigator or a different detective if there is
something that is uncomfortable in the lead detective you think
(10:21):
they're doing something wrong, calling even just the precinct where
they're based, or just getting in contact with their supervisor
to say, hey, these.
Speaker 5 (10:29):
Are my concerns.
Speaker 3 (10:30):
That's something you have the right to do, and I
would also flag you can have an attorney, You can
be represented as a witness, having a legal advocate to
kind of protect your rights and make sure that there
aren't any lines being crossed and that detectives or officers
aren't using the investigative process in a way that could
be weaponized against you at a later point.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
So those are your rights, but what do you do
if a police officer violates them? That's coming up after
the break.
Speaker 4 (11:19):
I got you.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
Police misconduct. It's a phrase we've mentioned a few times,
but there isn't a quick and easy definition. It can
cover a wide range of things, from excessive force to
sexual assault. But if you or someone you love has
ever left a police interaction and gotten the feeling that
something just isn't quite right, it can be daunting to
(11:44):
try and figure out what to do next. So I
asked Lauren what advice she.
Speaker 3 (11:49):
Would give if you've been a victim of police violence.
I think one of the most important first steps that
you can take is making sure that you seek immediate
medical attention. If it as something that was physical, whether
that was kind of an incident of excessive force where
you were harmed or beaten by the police, whether you
know it was a sexual assault, whatever it was, if
there was some kind of harm or injury you experienced,
(12:13):
it's very important that you get medical treatment quickly, not
only so you're healthy and that you can make sure
that you don't have any long term health consequences from
the event, but it's also very important for preserving your
rights and you know, helping your case. Emotional injuries are
very important to address quickly as well, So if you
can get into counseling, if you can get into psychiatric treatment,
(12:36):
that's going to be really important because these events are
traumatic and if it's not addressed, if it's kind of
pushed down, it could have real consequences for your health
long term. And you know, aside from that, if you
were to pursue a legal case, it's important to kind
of show that you were taking steps to take care
of yourself. Having corroborating counseling records is helpful to that end.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
The next step build up the evidence you might need
if you decide to report what happened or take legal action.
Speaker 5 (13:04):
See if there are any witnesses.
Speaker 3 (13:06):
Ringing cameras are all around, there are people with cell
phones all around, So even if you can't get access
to any of those videos, noting where they are, noting
who the people were who were involved, or could potentially
be witnesses, and getting their contact information is really important
because so many of these situations, even with body more
and cameras, even with dash cameras, it might be a
(13:28):
he said, she said situation, And you want to have
all the kind of corroborating evidence, or at least no
way to go about getting that evidence after it happens.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
What happens if you don't want to report it. Though
we've heard from so many women who for their own
various reasons, were too scared or traumatized to talk about
what happened to them. Nobody should ever force or pressure
you into feeling like you have to share your story.
That's a personal choice, and I can understand why so
many people would want to keep bit to themselves, but
(14:02):
there's still value in taking notes. They think it goes
to the fact that you may change your mind. You
may be in a place emotionally, spiritually, mentally where you
feel like you can pursue accountability and justice, and having
those kind of records and having that information is going
to allow you to do that in the future. I
would also say, though you know, kind of independent of
(14:23):
whether you want to seek that relief for yourself, or not.
One thing that we see over and over with all
types of police violence is there are repeat bad actors.
If this person did this thing to you, it's very
likely that they're going to do it to somebody else.
I think probably ninety nine percent of my clients, people
that I've represented in police misconduct cases, their number one
(14:44):
priority is making sure that what the experience doesn't happen
to anybody else, and making sure that officer has to
deal with the consequences of their actions. And you know
that can't happen if people don't come forward, and so
having that record and being able to turn it over
to somebody who'd suffered the same experience as you and
does want to pursue justice can be a way to
support them. If you do decide to take action, you
(15:08):
can file an internal affairs report.
Speaker 3 (15:11):
Most police departments do have kind of an online option
to submit a civilian complaint about an officer. There are
a lot of barriers in some places. I think Texas
is one of the states where you have to do
a kind of notarized signature if you're going to submit
any complaint on an officer, which is wild and difficult
and definitely is deterring people from filing those types of complaints.
(15:34):
But for the most part, there usually is information on
a particular police department's website. Even if there isn't, I
would say, even just writing a letter or an email
to a general inbox, you might get back from them like, oh,
we don't look into this, or we can't tell you
what we're going to do with it. Making those documentations
is very important for being able to point to that
(15:55):
at a later date and say, this police department was
on notice, this agency was on notice. They heard all
these different complaints and they didn't do anything. And I
think the reason that that's important is because so often
we focus on individual bad actors in police departments, but
we don't look at the role that the institution plays
in enabling them. And so often that comes in the
form of ignoring civilian complaints, internal affairs complaints. And the
(16:19):
way you can prove that they're being ignored and the
community concerns are being ignored is to file on every
single incident.
Speaker 1 (16:25):
What if you do seek medical attention, speak to a therapist,
gather up information, but then get scared of facing retaliation
while staying quiet may feel like the safer option. Sometimes
you protect yourself more by speaking out. In some ways,
being public protects you. Like the more you're out there,
(16:45):
the more people are gonna worry about you.
Speaker 3 (16:47):
People are going to know about you and worry about
you if something happens, and people are going to connect
the dots. If you are publicly saying, hey, this happened
to me and then suddenly arrested for some bogus charge,
people are going to two and two together, and that's
going to be a form of protection in a way.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
As we've heard in this series, the police aren't necessarily
the best people to reach out to when it comes
to reporting this conduct at the hands of their colleagues.
So another avenue to justice may be seeking out legal advice.
Speaker 3 (17:16):
You have to find an attorney. That's really, really important.
I'll plug the National Police Accountability Projects Public Attorney Directory.
We have attorneys in every single state in the United States,
over five hundred and fifty across the country who will
do a free consultation. Who will you know, look at
your case and be able to advise you on next steps.
I think one of the most important things folks should
(17:38):
know when they're going into this process is to make
sure that they're comfortable with the person. You know. Lawyers
sometimes can be charming charismatic because they have to like
talk in front of jury's But make sure that there's
authenticity behind that and that there's care behind that. And
I think one of the ways you can figure out
a good read on that is how many questions are
they asking about you as a person, about your loved one?
(17:59):
Are they interest and who they were? Are they interested
in who you are? I would say another thing that's
important when you're looking at an attorney is kind of
having an explicit conversation of like do you drop cases?
Speaker 5 (18:10):
Do you push your clients to accept settlements?
Speaker 3 (18:13):
Have you ever fired a client before, dropped representation of
a client before? And what were the circumstances around that
if we get a settlement offer?
Speaker 5 (18:21):
Like whose decision is that?
Speaker 3 (18:22):
Are you going to push me to accept an offer
or are you going to let that be my decision
and stick with me even if you disagree with it.
I think another thing is to just see what qushions
they ask you. Are they asking you about what your
goals are? If you tell them something that's kind of
negative about oh, my son who was killed, he did
have a gun, or you know, he did have this
on his Facebook page, Like what's their reaction?
Speaker 5 (18:44):
Is that like that is bad?
Speaker 3 (18:46):
Or is that everyone's human and you know he's a kid,
and just kind of seeing how they view you as
a person and view your loved one if they're suing
on behalf of your loved one.
Speaker 5 (18:54):
So it's definitely not a science.
Speaker 3 (18:55):
You're kind of like kind of feeling someone out like
you would just as inter personally. But there are specific
questions you can ask, and I think that there are
certain questions you should make sure that you see if
they're asking you to determine if they're going to be
a good fit.
Speaker 1 (19:08):
Like me, Lauren has spent time with dozens of people
who've had a really tough experience navigating the justice system.
Seeing a lawsuit through can have a real emotional toll
on you, so it's important to weigh up whether taking
legal action is actually the best option.
Speaker 3 (19:26):
The first question we ask somebody who comes forward and
says I'm considering filing a civil rights lawsuit is what
do you want to get out of this? What are
your goals? I think it's always really important to figure
out what you're trying to get out of the process.
If it's accountability, if you want to put a spotlight
on what happened, you could do just a media campaign
without all the kind of issues that come along with
a civil rights lawsuit. If it's some kind of external
(19:49):
accountability from the internal affairs department, but you don't want
to kind of sit down and be in a civil
rights lawsuit for three to four years, we might say, oh,
a civilian complaint review board my be a better route
for you where you can get someone other than the
police department to look at this, that there might be
some form of accountability. If it's monetary relief or if
you have like issues from the interaction that you're trying
(20:11):
to get compensation for, that might be a route. Well,
you absolutely have to do a civil rights lawsuit in
addition to kind of what are your goals would you
want to get out of this, Like what are your
concerns If retaliation is one of your concerns, you can
file lawsuits as kind of a Jane Doe. Usually in
certain communities and small communities. It's hard once you kind
of put all the facts out there to really protect
(20:32):
someone's identity, but there are ways that you can file
lawsuits confidentially, things can be filed under seal. And then
I think, you know, another thing that's really important in
terms of providing advice on taking legal action is really
making sure people understand what it entails.
Speaker 5 (20:47):
Right. It's not just kind of I file a lawsuit.
Speaker 3 (20:49):
Six months later, you know the court will say yes
or no about whether I'm right or not. These cases
take a really long time. They're really slow. You have
to sit for a deposition, you have to turn over
your metical records, you have to turn over sometimes your
cell phone records.
Speaker 5 (21:03):
Like it's very invasive.
Speaker 3 (21:04):
You really have to kind of open up your life
to the police department that you're suing in the court.
Speaker 5 (21:08):
It can be really dehumanizing.
Speaker 3 (21:10):
People really need to be aware that's going to happen
and be okay with that. And there are certain accommodations
we can make to address specific concerns, but at the
end of the day, you really have to make a
lot of sacrifices to pursue legal action, and so we
always want to be transparent about that and make sure
people are coming into the process fully informed about that.
(21:30):
And also I think to that point, it won't just
be you right, like your kid might have to be deposed,
your kid might have their cells, phone records subpoena. Like,
just making sure that there's a real understanding of what
is ahead and what this process will entail is a
big part of the conversation when someone wants to take
legal actions. I think it really is just kind of
(21:50):
having a conversation about, like, what what's the worst thing
we're going to find out in this process, Like what's
the worst.
Speaker 5 (21:56):
Thing you wouldn't want anyone to know?
Speaker 3 (21:57):
It is really important that people go into civil rights
lawsuits or any kind of legal action with eyes wide open,
But it can also be really empowering in the same
way that you kind of have to sit and have
the spotlight on you, so do they?
Speaker 1 (22:16):
Legal action can be the solution to getting justice in
individual cases of police misconduct, but as we know, the
problem runs much deeper than just a few bad apples.
So why have so many instances of police misconduct gone
unpunished and why can police departments seem so untouchable. That's
(22:40):
after the.
Speaker 2 (22:41):
Break you and got you.
Speaker 1 (22:56):
The sexual as sought allegations against Detective Glubski, and the
murders that sparked the Black Lives Matter Movement are just
a few of the many times police misconduct has become
the topic of national conversation. It was a case in
the nineties that led to the creation of the National
Police Accountability Project.
Speaker 3 (23:15):
A group of progressive attorneys saw what had happened to
Rodney King and said, hey, Rodney King isn't the only
Rodney King out there. There are so many people have
been harmed by the police. We should be taking their
cases now. It was at a time when there weren't
a lot of people doing this work, and so they
started filing these civil rights cases on behalf of victims
of police abuse and saw that there are all these
(23:35):
complicated legal doctrines and barriers that they were running into,
and so said, we should start making sure that we're
pulling our resources and our knowledge together so we can
be more successful. And NPAP was formed as a way
to do that, and for about fifteen twenty years that's
really what the organization did, was this kind of space
for attorneys who were suing the police in jails and
(23:56):
prisons to get together and share intel and information. After
the murder of George Floyd that there was a recognition
by the leadership of the organization that we could be
doing more to affect systemic reforms and make sure that
not only were we addressing police violence after it happened,
but that we were stopping it and enacting different reforms
to stop it before it happened in the first place.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
So the NPAP began working on lawsuits and taking legal
action against jails, prisons, and police departments that were found
to have repeatedly engaged in misconduct. But some of the
hurdles they've come up against get in the way of
true police accountability.
Speaker 3 (24:35):
I would say, really at the top are police unions.
The collective bargaining agreements that are in place, which are
the agreements between the police department and the city, create
all these protections that make it incredibly hard even to
start disciplinary proceedings, make it hard to do internal investigations.
So even if you bring in a chief who really
(24:55):
wants to make sure that his officers aren't doing something wrong,
that they're being suspen or disciplined or terminated when they
do something wrong, oftentimes they can't carry that out because
of how immense the protections in a collective bargaining agreement are.
I would say another big barrier is political will. In
twenty twenty and twenty twenty one, we saw a lot
(25:16):
of steps towards accountability. We saw a lot of steps
towards reform, but so many of those have been clawed
back at the state and federal level because of this
narrative that we have about crime increasing, and all those
things together have been some of the barriers to even
kind of these baseline reforms being enacted.
Speaker 1 (25:33):
There are many activists, especially in over policed communities, that
argue that the police can't be reformed, that the best
solution is to defund or abolish them. Cities like Austin
in Seattle have diverted millions of dollars away from their
police force and into services that tackle homelessness, public housing,
and social care, but other cities have tried and backtracked
(25:56):
after realizing they weren't fully prepared for the work of
reallocating funds or the effect that reducing the police could
have on preventing crime. I've seen firsthand the harm that
the police can have on a community, but like other activists,
I've made the choice to try and work with the
authorities to enact reform. It's not a path that everyone
(26:18):
agrees with and I can understand why. So I ask
Lauren why she's chosen to do the same in spite
of all the barriers.
Speaker 3 (26:27):
People are killed by the police every day in America,
and you know, we can't just say, oh, let's dream
of a better future, because you know, police are always
going to be trash.
Speaker 5 (26:36):
People need relief and help right now.
Speaker 3 (26:38):
I think that there's a lot of policy merits to
abolition and defund, but I think we are at a
place where we're kind of meeting the system where it's
at in trying to make sure that people who are
harmed today have some form of relief or like that
the bare minimum is happening in terms of accountability, because
when you look at it, people.
Speaker 5 (26:55):
Are saying, you know, this doesn't work. Reform doesn't work.
Speaker 3 (26:58):
But very few police departments have actually enacted any kind
of meaningful reforms. Even our existing thoughts of what accountability
systems should be aren't in place. And so I think
the kind of approach we have NPAP and the reason
that I'm passionate about working at this organization is because
it's really meeting real needs. And so even if these
are incremental changes or small changes, if it's you making
(27:21):
that three people killed by the police one person killed
by police every day. That's important. That's important to those
families who aren't going to live with the loved one
to police violence. That's important to communities that might feel
even slightly less over policed, and they can have a
real impact. And so that's kind of our approach and
our thought process around the steps that we're taking to
change policing.
Speaker 1 (27:41):
Lauren has seen the impact that challenging the police to
enact reform can have. She told me about a case
she's working one that involves a police department in a
small town in the South, a state where the government
hasn't done much to push back against police misconduct.
Speaker 3 (27:57):
I mean, there was just zero accountability there a small town.
Speaker 5 (28:00):
There wasn't a civilian review board.
Speaker 3 (28:02):
You know, the mayor and the city council were all
very close with the police department. But it was a
place where there was incredible amounts of abuse.
Speaker 5 (28:10):
There were these roadblocks that.
Speaker 3 (28:12):
Were being erected, you know, kind of blocking the street
and kind of like a military takeover almost and targeting
black citizens, the majority of black town. Targeting black citizens
for ticketing and stops in searches of their vehicle. We
came in, we filed a lawsuit, and even though that
lawsuit is ongoing, as soon as we filed the lawsuit,
there were a number of changes, right, Like all these
(28:33):
things that people were going to city council meetings complaining
about and had been ignored. Once there was a lawsuit
and there was a spotlight on them, they started cleaning
up their act, not completely, but in terms of reducing
the number of roadblocks that they were erecting, you know,
being more thoughtful about like who they were arresting, using
less force, and incidents, giving people the benefit of the
doubt instead of tickets. Just lived the very fact of
(28:56):
filing a lawsuit and putting a spotlight on the situation
and saying, hey, these are actually legal violations and we
feel so serious about them, we're willing to take them
to a federal court. That having a kind of immediate
change in people's lives was really rewarding and really encouraging.
And they recently elected a new mayor who's a very
kind of reform minded mayor.
Speaker 5 (29:16):
So I think only better things are to come.
Speaker 3 (29:18):
And so I would just say that, you know, a
lot of times there are these police departments that feel
like they are just so rotted to the core that
they can't change and that there's no way it's going
to get better or policing as a whole is going
to get better. But I think we as civilians, we
as people in the community, really have more control over
that than we give ourselves credit for. When we stand up,
(29:38):
when we push back, when we put a spotlight on somewhere,
things aren't going to completely change.
Speaker 5 (29:42):
There's still going to be problems.
Speaker 3 (29:43):
I think that there are some fundamental flaws with policing
that aren't going to be fixed for a long time,
but even these kind of incremental changes can have a
huge impact.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
So what do you do if you're seeing instances of
police misconduct in your community? What kadjian A and other
activists in our community did was to keep showing up,
asking questions and challenging the authorities. It can be easy
to fall into us versus them mentality, and in cases
(30:13):
like the ones we've heard, it does often feel that way.
But the police and local government are supposed to work
for us make our community safer. So it's essential that
regular people take it upon themselves to fight for accountability,
because if we don't do it?
Speaker 5 (30:32):
Who will If.
Speaker 3 (30:34):
You're seeing something wrong, if you're like feeling like this
just isn't working, if you're feeling like you don't know
what steps to take in order to improve the police
department or policing in your community. Step one is to
do some self education, right like who is your police chief?
Speaker 5 (30:47):
Is he elected? Okay?
Speaker 3 (30:48):
If he's elected, Like when's his next campaign? Is there
somebody we can get to run against him? I think
really Step one is getting the information if you're seeing
a lot of use of force, like, can I do
an open records request and get access to the use
of force policy and see if that's where the problem
is coming from?
Speaker 5 (31:04):
Is this an issue with training?
Speaker 3 (31:05):
So really figuring out like what is the source of
these problems and getting that information. I feel like it's
such an important step and can be so empowering. And
once you're educated, you should really feel empowered to kind
of educate others, elected officials.
Speaker 5 (31:18):
Your other people in your community.
Speaker 3 (31:21):
You have more allies out there than you know, and
so kind of showing up at city council meetings, at
police accountability board meetings if you have one, and then
you know, I think in this world where we have
so much digital advocacy, Like just looking and seeing who
else is out there, who else is doing this work,
and plugging in, you're going to find like minded folks,
and together you're going to be able to make a
(31:41):
bigger splash than you could alone.
Speaker 1 (31:44):
Activism can seem exciting and empowering at first, but the
road to progress can be long and frustrating. If I'm honest,
Kadjia and I have probably experienced more disappointments than major
wins fighting.
Speaker 3 (32:01):
I don't think it's an option to say we just
have to deal with this, we just have to give up,
we just have to wait for something else to happen.
Like people are suffering right now. People are dealing with
police violence right now, they're dealing with all kinds of
misconduct and harm. We have to keep doing this work,
and we should feel inspired to do this work because
there are so many people who are being so brave
(32:22):
and stepping forward and saying, you know, this happened to me,
and I don't think it should happen to anybody else.
We should stand by them and stand with them, because
we're always more effective when we're working together than working alone.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
A huge thank you to Lauren Bonds for joining us
and sharing all her wisdom. I hope this episode gave
you some practical insights on how to know your rights
and advocate for you your loved ones in your local community.
If you want to learn more about the National Police
Accountability Project.
Speaker 3 (32:56):
Follow us on Instagram. We are in pap Justice on Instagram.
We provide just about all of our updates on there.
We're also on Blue Sky same handle, and we have
a website as well, National Police Accountability Project, So just
google us you will find us around.
Speaker 1 (33:17):
In the next episode of The Girlfriend's Untouchable, our producer
Raufaro will be speaking to District Attorney Mark dupri about
how to weed out corruption and make a change.
Speaker 5 (33:29):
It's one thing to know corruption exists. It's a whole
other thing when.
Speaker 4 (33:35):
You're actually in the system and you're the DA and
you actually have the evidence to show I wasn't driven.
Speaker 5 (33:47):
It was a shock.
Speaker 4 (33:48):
I was like, oh wow.
Speaker 1 (33:56):
The Girlfriend's Untouchable is produced by Novels for iHeart Podcast.
For more from novel visit novel dot Audio. The show
is narrated by me Nicki Richardson. It was written and
produced by Rufarro Mazarura. The editor is Joe Wheeler. Our
assistant producer is Mohammed Ahmed. The researcher is Zaiyana Yusef.
(34:20):
Production management from Shuri Houston and Joe Savage. The fact
checker is Fndell Fulton. Sound design, mixing and scoring by
Daniel Kimpson with additional engineering by Nicholas Alexander. Music supervision
by Rufarro Masarua, Nicholas Alexander and Joe Wheeler. Original music
by Amanda Jones. The series artwork was designed by Christina Limpool.
(34:45):
Novel's Director of Development is Selena Metta. Willard Foxton is
Novel's creative director of Development. Max O'Brien and Craig Strachan
are executive producers for Novel. Katrina Norvel and Nicki Etour
are the executive producers for iHeart Podcasts, and the marketing
lead is Alison Cantor. Special thanks to Will Pearson and
(35:07):
his special thanks to Carley Frankel and the whole team
at w ME
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