January 19, 2023 • 42 mins
What does Martha have in common with Madonna, DeNiro, and Lil Nas X? Answer: Allen Grubman. In 1987 Martha was a caterer, new author, and just starting to branch out into retail. Grubman was a New York City lawyer, handling contracts for musical artists, who recognized the business potential. He helped negotiate Martha’s contract with Kmart, which they then leveraged to buy her magazine from Time-Warner -- the most important deal of her career. Thirty-six years later, they are still working together, and Grubman is still creating power deals for the most influential stars in music, movies, and beyond. Listen here as they catch up.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
I always had a gift of gab. We all know that.
Listen to listen to Alan Grubman for the next hour,
you're gonna know what the gift of gab is really
all about. Hello, everyone, you're in for a treat today.
This is Martha Stewart. And if you're in the entertainment business,
(00:22):
there is one lawyer that you want on your side,
and his name is Alan Grubman. Allen is considered the
most influential attorney in the industry and has the well
known clientele to prove it, from Bruce Springsteen, Robert De Niro, Elton,
John Lady Gaga to Little nos X and so many others,
(00:44):
even me. Martha Stewart. Allen's international legal powerhouse has represented
all of us. Alan is a co founder of the
Rock and Roll Hall of Fame as well as a
recent inductee. I was so proud when you odd inducted
into the Rocket Thank You of Fame. Alan Krugman now
(01:05):
joining me to talk about his successful career and the
entertainment business is the legendary. And I don't even like
to call you legendary because you're not dead yet. Tregeons
are dead, right and you are You are not a
legend yet, but you are very active and very busy
and very funny. And Alan has always been the same
(01:26):
and I've known him and worked with him since nineteen seven.
Welcome to my podcast. Thank you very very much. And
so I've gone through several lawyers in your firm, Alan Krugman.
We started with Alan Krugman um in what I think
it was you We we had just made a deal
with UM with Kamo. We made a consulting deal with
(01:49):
Kmon in ight seven and that was when we first met,
and I think that was the first thing we were
And that consulting deal allowed me and my company to
buy back my rights to Martha Stewart Living Magazine from
Time Inc. Nineteen nineties five I believe was we brought
it back. I think that I did. I say, excuse me,
(02:15):
that's right. And in eight seven you made the consultant.
The first time the magazine was published through Time Inc.
Was in ninete. That was the first times, right, And
then a few years later we were in a position
which to my dying day, I'll never understand that they
were prepared to sell you back everything. And we know
(02:36):
what happened after that, and for not very much money
either dollars. Remember they signed a little piece of paper
and they let me, they let me, uh, And I
kept that little piece of paper and I brought it back. Well, Um,
those those early days were so exciting for me and uh,
and you were just I think I was the first
(02:57):
non performer client you ever had. Okay, let me say
something to you that I let me just tell you
something I've never directly told you. You were my lucky charm. Really, yes,
you were the first non music client I had seven
and going forward, inspired by the representation of you, the
(03:23):
firm started going into all these different areas movies, television, journalism, athletics.
That was manufacturing fact factor and that was all inspired
by our representation of you. And I've never said this
to you, and I'm saying it publicly that I have
an enormous debt to you. I don't I assume at
(03:48):
some point I would have got through life, but meeting
you was a major step forward. Well that's very nice
to know and uh and very nice to hear. Um.
But we had, Joe. What I want to I want
to get back into your beginnings because here you are.
You were born in Brooklyn, correct you went to Brooklyn College,
(04:08):
City College and Brooklyn Law School. Okay, and uh, and
what made you What did you do first? What? What
did you what kind of law did your practice when
you first got out. I'll tell you this is uh,
this is interesting and it's fairly well known. At the
age of eleven, I had a stage mother, and at
the age of eleven, she decided that a son should
(04:31):
be a singer. So she ends up. There was a
television show in New York in those days called The
Horn and aut Art Children's Hour, which was on every
Sunday on NBC at ten thirty in the morning. So
she sent a letter and somehow I got into audition.
I had a a really good singing voice, really yes,
(04:53):
So I was accepted and from eleventh to thirteen I
was on that show every Sunday, and I was part
of a quartet. At the age of thirteen, my voice changed.
That was the end of my career. But growing up
in Brooklyn, it it gave me a taste of the
entertainment business. What do I mean the They would pick
(05:17):
us up or pick me up at on Saturday for
rehearsal in a limousine and they would take me into
the city thirty Rock right famous in your neighborhood. Wow,
But let me tell you the interesting thing. So they
take you in a limousine and you'd rehearse and then
they take you home. The only time in Brooklyn, if
(05:40):
you a middle class family, the only time you ever
was in a limousine the funeral, when you were right
behind the funeral procession. So all of a sudden, I'm
driving in this limousine and something else happened when you.
When I grew up, there were two restaurants that I
went to. You went to a kosher Delhi and you
went for Chinese food on Sunday at five o'clock. That
(06:03):
was the extent of it. They used to take us
out for lunches and dinners during rears to these very
very good restaurants. So by the age of thirteen, when
my brilliant career was over, I said, you know something,
this is good. You go to good restaurants, you drive
in fancy cause and that stayed in my mind. What
(06:26):
ends up happening. I go to City College, then I
go to Brooklyn Law School, and in Brooklyn Law School,
I said, I want to be an entertainment lawyer. So
instead of working for lawyers part time after school. My
first year I was in the mail room at William Mars.
Oh great, I didn't know that from four to eight
at night. And the second or third year, I was
(06:47):
a page at CBS and Geffen was a page at CBS.
A zillion of my friends now who was successful, So
I'm a paid So they had me wear a gray
sports jacket with a CBS. So I would walk into
class every day with this gray sport jacket and the
CBS I and they'd say, it's crazy, what's he doing.
(07:10):
He takes people to their seats, which is what a
page does. Everybody thought that I was like a little
out of my mind, but I wanted to get some
exposure to the entertainment business. And then afterwards I graduated,
and then my career started to blah blah blah and
where did you practice law? First first job I ever
had was whe a man by the name of Walter Hoefer,
(07:33):
who was a music lawyer. I always wanted to be
a movie lawyer or a television lawyer. The last thing
I wanted to be was a music lawyer. He's the
only one who gave me a job. I started working
for him in nineteen seventy and um, that's how I
became a music lawyer at the very beginning. Well, and
(07:53):
look at the look at your clientele now so many amazing, famous, famous,
famous musicians. It's amazing. You know something I pinched myself
because in my speech at the at the Hall of Fame,
I said, I wasn't supposed to do this. I was
I went to Brooklyn Law School. I was supposed to
(08:14):
be a negligence lawyer, and I said, I hate accidents.
What how would I be a successful negligence lawyer? But
by sheer luck, I was able to get my first
job in my first love. And that's what happened. So
after you worked for it, for your first your first boss,
(08:34):
how did you start your law Okay, I started working
for him and I started in nineteen sixty nine and
nineteen seventy four. I had a knack for it. You know,
sometimes you sense that you're good at something. This was
the first time in my life I ever was good
at anything. I wasn't a great athlete. I was a
terrible student. I always had a gift of gab. But
(08:58):
that but that's all. Listen to Alan Grubin for the
next hour, You're gonna know what the gift of gab
is really all about. So I started working, and after
four years, I realized that I wanted to go out
of my own. So I left the firm with four clients,
two Frenchmen who ended up creating The Village People, a
(09:22):
Miami little record company that created Casey in the Sunshine Band,
blah blah blah. Then there were two other disco artists.
In the seventies. Disco was was the big deal. So UM,
I go out on my own and all of a sudden,
disco explodes and I started repriet and now I'm in
(09:43):
my own practice and all these Where was your first
office physically East fifty fifth Street, right next to where
the Fryer's Club is now. They toured down the building.
It was one of these six story buildings and UM,
and that's how I first thought. It was seven hundred
and fifty dollars a month rent and god knows how
small it was. UM. And then I started building, building building,
(10:08):
and in in nineteen eight disco died. I don't know
if everybody remembers. It came to an end um and
and I said, oh, that's it. I'm done. And then
in Bruce Springsteen, I meet him, I meet Madonna. There
was some really important mainstream artists that I started representing,
(10:31):
Elton John, and then from there it really took off.
So who does your firm currently represential? Oh, it's like
back to who's who? Um, whether it's Bob Iger was
Bob just went back to work agains and you know,
I was very happy to see that he is requiring
(10:53):
or wanting to require five days ye work week. You
know he's very are you very happy to be back?
I have a list here, um that here, here's here
are some of the clients. Bruce Springsteen, Elton John, Lady Gaga,
Little Not eventually love Little naz X. Oh my gosh,
I love him, Madonna, Nicki, Minaj, Mariah Carry, Robert de Niro,
(11:17):
Lebron James Gayle King, Barbara Walters, past past Now, Diane Sawyer,
Bette Midler. Um, we have Usher, we have David Foster,
Shania Twain, the Estates, David Bowie, Paul Simon, you too, Tony.
These are just some of many, many many. I heart Media,
my heart media. We are talking on I heart media
(11:39):
right now. This is my podcast. That's it. And so
we represent I Heart Media, we represent Live Nation, which
is the company that does all the promotions, and Spotify, Spotify,
Warner Music Group, Universal Music Group, Sony Irving. Okay, but
that's so. And you have how many lawyers now in
the fifty fifty yers all working night and day to
(12:02):
keep all of us in business with good contracts, doing
the best that they can do and you can do.
But you know, when did you take your first partner?
Who was your first partner? Author? Yes, I remember Arthur
Author was my first partner. Um in ninety A couple
of years after I started to practice, I started to
(12:25):
bring people in and name people partners. The structure was
a little different than a formal partnership, but he was
the first one, and then a few years later it
was Paul Schindler. And then now there are fifty lawyers
in the firm, as you know. And the lawyer that
I worked with most closely, well they're too Larry Shire
(12:46):
correct was devoted to you, who is now a senior
partner and his name is in the name of the
firm as scruman Shire uh sas and also Peter Grant.
I just wanted to mention both of those because they
work really really hard for us and they are fantastic
representatives of the Grubman Law firm. They are amazing. So
(13:16):
stepping out on your own, you started to accumulate a
roster of clients that second to none in the entertainment business.
Your friends, who do you who do you consider your
circle of friends? Which you just When I walked into
this morning to um to interview Alan, he was on
the phone with Skip Ronson, Skip Ronson who you introduced
(13:40):
me to? That's right, I introduced him to six Skip Ronson,
who was at the time in Las Vegas working for
Steve Win. And then you were also you said you
had dinner yesterday or lunch yesterday at at Tip Yani
with Irwin Winkler, who's another old time friend and client
of yours. And so the whole time that I've known
Alan Grubman, he still has all his old friends, which
(14:03):
is is really an amazing feats. Yes, I live in
a very exclusive area of the Hampton's called lily Pan Lane,
and you know who convinced me to buy the house.
I couldn't stand it. He was renting and I said, Alan,
you have to buy a house. You have to and
(14:24):
he bought a really nice house and improved it tremendously
across the street. And I'm sorry I sold my house.
I'm not really sorry, but I'm sorry. I miss you.
I miss you, and I missed and I missed a breakfast,
and I miss your wife and uh and I really
I really wish sometimes that I was still out there.
But I'll be out I'll be visiting. Um but the
(14:46):
Hampton's and and when you if I just describe to
digress a little bit, Alan's Sunday's are amazing in the
Hampton's because there's a lunch. You don't know who's gonna
be John bon Jovis at lunch, and then there's tell
them something, just say it comes to your house. Nowadays
it's David Zaslav who's the chairman of Waters and David
(15:07):
Dean has a house on the street bon Jovi. Um,
it's just like and then remember those days, More Zuckerman
was there all the time, Um, who you It was
a who's who on Sunday for lunch. And Debbie used
to get calls how do I get invited? And Debbie,
(15:27):
who is a very famous relator, a real estate agent
here in New York city. Is this beautiful buxom blonde,
very very fit and very beautiful with long blonde hair.
And she somehow keeps Alan Grudman in shape and intact.
She's She's amazing. So tell me a little bit about
(15:48):
your family. You have how many kids? So I have, uh,
two daughters, Lizzie and Jenny who Lizzie has two children
sixteen and thirteen, and Jenny has twins sixteen. Debbie has
a son, Um who has a daughter, and then she
has a daughter who has two children. So you and
(16:12):
you keep track of all those birthdays. They make sure
because they all have arthritis. Described this to the audience.
The hands are always like this. Oh there, Oh, the
palms are up. Palms are always up waiting to be filled.
That's their form of arthritis. You know why, because you're
a very generous man. That's why Gruman and you've always
(16:33):
been a generous man. And that makes a big difference
to kids. They know that they can count on you,
right as this as his clients can count on him.
So what is the biggest mistake people make or some
of the mistakes people make when signing contracts? They have
the wrong lawyers and very often when people sign contracts.
(16:54):
They only look at one line, how much money they're getting.
They don't look at everything else that's so important, like
what what's required of what restrictions, what they can do,
what they can't do, what the companies on the other
side I could do. It isn't just there's an old
grubmen expression, it's not about the money. It's about the money.
(17:15):
But that is only to a certain I quote you
many times about that. But there are a lot of
other things that are important. So the law firm is growing.
It is accumulating clients at a at a very very
fast rate. Correct um. Who would you say has been
the most exciting client to deal with? It depends on
(17:36):
what period of time. Right now, an important client to
the firm is warners one of media, David Zaza because
of all that's happening, well, he has been accumulating properties
like crazy David Zaslov was was became very famous as
the head of Discovery Channel and then he bought one
(17:59):
of Media Warner Me do that a year and a half,
which includes what HBO it's HBO CN and one of
one of the movies, one of movie Group, um T
n T it's an enormous company. It is and UH
and the Food Network and emerged that with Discovery and
it's now an enormous media company and he's now in
(18:22):
the process of integrating it and growing it. Yeah. Really
he's a wonderful guy. Yeah. Oh, I love him. I
love him. He's so much fun too. And tell a
funny story about Barbara streisand Is. So we're we have
a dinner out in California, which Debbie does, and streisand
(18:44):
is there and David sass up right after he got
the job. So Barbara comes in. David was already there
talking to a few people. Barbara comes in. I go
over to Barbara, Barbara, you see the guy with the vest. Yeah,
he is now the new head of One of Pictures,
because that's what he would, she would one of Pictures. Yes,
(19:07):
he is Bob Daily. He is Steve Ross. And I
mentioned all the you can't so, I said, she hadn't
met him before, she didn't know who he was. I mean,
he had no idea. So I go over to disaster laugh.
Take a look over there, he says, is that Bobs
drives in? I said, I'm glad you visioned is Yes,
(19:33):
I said, now what you're gonna do is he's gonna
walk over to her, You're gonna sit down, and you're
gonna chat with her. He says, okay. See For the
next twenty minutes, they fall in love with each other
because he was how do I say this? He was
doing everything to ingratiate himself with her, and she was
(19:53):
doing twice as much because she's picturing that should be
able to do a movie for what it was hysterical.
And then it's time to go into dinner. She comes
over to me and says, Alan, he's such a charming guy.
And it was very, very fine. So these two people
met for the first time and they worked each other
to the point that they wanted to accomplish. So I
(20:15):
thought it was a cute story because he was just
you know, Discovery is a network that does documentaries. They
don't really deal with talent. They do with documentaries as
you know the Food Network. Uh, they do documentaries on
interesting subjects, and now all of a sudden, he's running
this company where talent is the issue. But anyway, I
(20:36):
thought it was a cute story. That's very very cute,
and and so is she gonna make a movie with her? Well?
She's hoping, Yeah, we'll see, We'll see. I mean, she
can just write her own ticket, Barbara streisand I mean
she has done. She's an amazing actress and an amazing performer.
So and I don't and I don't think she's thinking
of retiring anytime soon. She's she's you guys are the
(20:58):
same age, so al And just turned eighty. I'm eighty one.
Hard to believe right now, impossible to the right. We
we don't. We are workers. And I was talking to
Allen before we started to interview to the Unicorns that
we are unicorns, but we are also the hardest workers around.
We don't want to retire. When people say, oh, what
(21:20):
do you what are you going to slow down? I
couldn't think about slowing down. And Alan Gruman certainly hasn't
slowed down at all. We'll have plenty of time to
rest at the right moment. You are bicoastal now. Also,
when did you decide that you would get a house
in l A. It had nothing to do with me.
It was Debbie, Debbie's whole family. I've always had a
(21:40):
lot of clients in l A. And I would go
there once a month for a week, or several days.
So she says, Alan, it's time for us to buy
a house. Uh, I'm tired of staying at hotels. But
she really wanted to have as it. So then we
started looking for houses and other interesting story we saw
(22:02):
looking for a house and one house at beb but
but one after the other we don't like. Then all
of a sudden, Debbie gets a call from David Geffen.
David Geffen is a very successful entrepreneur in the entertainment business.
He's fairly well known so but he's a dear friend
of mine. And the Philharmonic, the New York Philharmonic Hall
is now the David Geffen Hall thanks to a massive
(22:25):
gift from David Gef. I went to the opening where
you were at the opening? Yeah, we saw each other.
So um. He says to Debbie, get on a plane today.
I want you to be out here. I want to
show you something. So David said, get on a plane.
Debbie gets on a plane. There was a very famous
agent called Sioux Mangers, which probably very few people in
(22:48):
your audience will remember, but she was like the most
famous agent of her day, and she had just died,
and she had this great house in Beverly Hills. So,
to make a long story short, we bought the house
and um and what ended up happening is that Debbie
spent about a year and a half. It was a wreck,
(23:09):
but the bones were great. It was a very famous architect.
I want to see that house one of these days,
have a coordinative visit. So the bottom line is, so
now we have a house and we're out there a
week a month. But she loves it and we love
the house. And she's doing in l A what she
does in New York, not working, but in terms of
socializing and seeing her seeing her family and grant any time. Right, Yeah,
(23:32):
that's so great. So I just want to know. I
want people to know what you do in a day.
What time do you get up? Um? I get up
at six o'clock and UM, I get out of bed,
usually between six thirty and seven, and then I come downstairs,
I have a cup of coffee and then I work
(23:52):
out at seven. I actually we'll start working at at
seven three days a week until eight. Then at eight
third I go to breakfast, either with a friend, a client,
or a lawyer in the office, and I usually get
to the office. Where do you go for breakfast either
e A t on Madison Avenue, Bonnie green Grass on
(24:13):
the west side, and the third one is Santambros, which
is on Mati Avenue. They get to the office about
nine thirty and then the day begins, whether it's phone calls,
whether it's meetings, dealing with the lawyers with their issues.
And then I go to lunch at one again with
(24:35):
either lawyers or an outside person. Favorite place for lunch. Um,
it's tough these days. Milos. I like because it's fish
trott A Rhea, which is Italian Brooklyn diner. I'm gonna
put in a plug has the greatest roklate cake. It's
called Alan Grubman's Truck. Really, I'm going to go there
(24:55):
one of these days with you. You're taking me for truy,
I'm paying for it, Okay. Sometimes I go to Michael's,
like yesterday I went with her, went to Cipriani. There's
no one restaurant, and if I'm going with the lawyers,
then it's totally different. We'll go for pizza, we'll go
for some Chinese food and that's it. So then I
(25:15):
kept back to the office like two to thirty, and
I work another two hours doing whatever has to be done.
And then at four thirty I go home. I take
a massage. At five to six, and then seven thirty
we either dinner with people at home. When we go
out to a restaurant. I'm back by ten ten thirty
and sleeping by ten thirty eleven. So you get a
(25:37):
good night's sleep, you sleep well. Yes, I usually sleep
from eleven till let's say six. Any any programs that
you must watch on TV, Well, I get home at
the point. You know, the problem is, I'm out either
for dinner or we have dinner, and it always is
over by ten ten fifteen. It's too late to watch
any programs. So I watch news. So good. So I
(26:00):
you have to be informed in your business, in every business, Yes, definitely,
and and so and that's and on weekends, if I'm
in California, it's spending time with our kids, and in
the evening we socialize. If in New York, if I'm
out in the half one during the summer, we go out,
(26:21):
as you know, to the to the house Friday morning
and come back Monday morning. During except in the middle
of July, we go to europe Um. During the winter,
we're out there maybe once or twice maximum. And when
we stay in the city, we just relax. There's no
specific skit. Good life, good friends. I saw you recently
(26:45):
at a big table of people at the Polo Bar
with Ralph Florence restaurant. Right, that's a fun place to go.
I just worry about the fact that it's downstairs. Yes,
we all worry about that's weird. But the food is great. Yeah,
it's definitely. The atmosphere is great and we enjoy it. Okay. So, um,
(27:07):
when when somebody comes to you looking for help, legal help,
how do you approach a new client? First, I, if
they come to me, I'll sit and talk to them
and see if I have First if I can be
productive for them? And number two, do I have an
interest in being productive? And then when I see what
(27:29):
their issues are and what area, whether it's a television,
whether it's a book, deal where, whether it's a music,
then um, I will go to the appropriate lawyer and
have them meet with the person and then we try
to help them very If we represent we represent a
(27:49):
lot of TV journalists. Now. It started with the representation
of Diane Sawyer and Barbara Walters, but now it's spread
to Gail King, and a whole slew of journalists. That's
an area I find interesting. Yeah, well, very interesting. Barbara
Walters just passed away. She was a very close friend
of you yours, and and Debbie's very very close And yeah,
(28:14):
I've been on the phone with Bob Iger trying to
figure out what to do, uh in terms of some
sort of memorial and it's in discussion right now. Okay,
we'll make sure I get invited, because you know how,
you know how she was wonderful Fondie was of her
and and her professionalism and uh and her goodwill towards
so many good causes. She was an interesting woman. I'll
(28:34):
tell you a funny story about how we were on
Geffen's boat and it was Bob and I blah blah blah,
and and a few other people very important in the
financial world that in the entertainment. So we're having dinner,
and then after dinner, she comes over to me says,
you know, Allen, this is the only place in the
(28:57):
world I must see celebrity because the other people, whether
it was financial or what they accomplished. So she she
was used to being catered to. And Barbara Wallas is
and now she said, I'm a C celebrity. I said,
it could be worse. How could it be worse? You
could be a D celebrity. But we had a big
(29:17):
laugh about well, she's a She was a very forthright
person and she and she uh shouldn't make fun of
herself and that was that was. She was an amazing,
amazing she was the greatest TV journal female. You're on
a list of the tent, but she broke all the
ice for everybody that followed. She really did. She was
very The Golden Globes were last night. I missed it.
(29:40):
Did you see it? I did not know I was.
I was out at a at a corporate dinner, but
but I read it all about it this morning, and
I and uh, and it was. They said it was
a little boring, but um, you know, they had a
lot of repair workship to do after the last Golden Globes.
But I thought that the awards went to the right
peep bowl when I when when, I mean, I've seen
(30:02):
most of the most of the programming that that one,
and I thought I thought they chose chose well. Spielberg's
movie one yes, The Fable Men, which I actually saw,
and didn't you like it, Yeah, because it was like
the story of his life. It was He's a victory
for the nerds. You know, I've said to Debbie, I said,
(30:24):
in high school, there were the nerdy, unpopular kids, and
then there were the stars, the head of the football team,
the most popular kid, the best looking blah blah blah.
What ends up happening as adults the nerds become Mark Zuckerberg,
the Google guys, um Elon must course, and what happens
(30:46):
to the great baseball players and popular they become gym teachers.
The nerds are running the world now they are in
and the people in high school, high school, you got
the well the Bill Gates is and extreme jobs and
the Charles Simonies of the world exactly. But but it's
uh everyone, everyone, Ultimately, it's about what you do all
(31:11):
your life, not just about what you do in a
little moment. To tell everybody the Charles Simony story. You're
going to Joel Silver's wedding, Oh you tell us, I forgot,
You're gonna remember all listen. Charles Simony was a former
boyfriend of mine and we were invited to go to
Joel Silver's wedding in Venice twenty years ago, the most
(31:34):
beautiful wedding. It was a week long wedding, the best,
the best destination wedding I ever went to me too.
Of course he married another, that's right, okay, okay. So
so you called Debbie and you say, listen, I'm going
with Charles Simony and we're flying over. Would you like
a lift? So Debbie said, of course. So on the
(31:55):
way to the airport, we stopped at E A T.
And Debbie gets to muffins, puts them in a bag.
We get on the plane. At about forty minutes into
the plane, I say to you, I'm hungry. Can we
get something to eat? And you say something to Simony
and he turns white. He brought no food for a
(32:19):
nine hour trip. I don't know if you remember. I
remember classic Charles is a nerd. He was. He was
the man who wrote word and Excel for Microsoft, and
and he did not believe in dirtying his plane with crumbs.
So this is what happened. So then I said, I
whispered a Debby. He still lapped the muffins. She said, yeah.
(32:44):
I said, go into the bathroom and cut them in
in eagle pieces and come back. So well, matha then
takes charge. She decided how we were going to eat
these two muffins for the next nine hours, and that's
the only thing we had to eat. It was hysterically.
There was always a couple of little pieces of chocolate,
(33:05):
a special a special kind of chocolate that was that
was the only thing allowed. And water. I have told
that story. I can't. It's hysterical that you fly, I know,
brand new Falcon fifty X. I mean it was fantastic,
but no crumbs allowed. I got him to allow me
to take my dogs on the plane. Yeah, that was
(33:28):
a big accomplishment. And he didn't even like pets, No dogs,
no cat. And that's a major even a bigger accompany
much more. You're known to be a great negotiator. What
makes a great negotiator knowing when to stop. A great
(33:53):
negotiator is somebody that knows when, let's say I'm representing
somebody that's selling something thing. First, you've got to know
when you've reached the point that you're not going to
get any more, and if you continue, you're going to
develop resentment and a deal and you lose the deal.
That's if you're representing the seller, if you're representing the buyer.
(34:18):
You've got to know how much you can give and
try to go to the most, but don't become too
cheap to blow the deal. So being a great negotiators
understanding when to say stop, and very few people know that.
Most people go too far, you know, on either side.
(34:39):
But do you find that out from so you're selling
something for someone, do you really get those numbers out
of the cellar before you go in? Instincts? It's all instinct,
you know something I always said to people. You can
study and learn the law, but the emotional intelligence which
you're born with no wing. Who are you dealing with,
(35:02):
how to get along with that person and knowing when
it's time to close the deal. Are there people that
you couldn't ever negotiate with? Yes, and most of them
ended up failures because they couldn't negotiate with me. That
means they would have problems with other people. Yeah, and
they don't succeed. The entertainment industry has changed so drastically
(35:23):
over the years. Um discuss that a little bit. Well, now,
let's take movies and television. There was a time when
movies with a superior was the superior child, and television
was the secondary child. As we all know, now television
and the shows on television are much more important and
(35:45):
much more relevant than movie theatrical movies. Is that because
of the pandemic or is that just a trend? Anyway,
I think it's a trend. But also the pandemic, which
kept people at home was had a great impetus in
But now the really I remember years ago an actor,
a movie star would never think of doing anything in television.
(36:06):
Now it's totally changed. The biggest movie stars are prepared
to do television series, television movies, etcetera. So streaming has
changed the world. Uh in Holly Hollywood used to be
the important companies in Hollywood used to be paramount and
Sony and Warner Brothers. Now the most important companies in
(36:30):
Hollywood are the streaming companies Netflix, Amazon, of Roku Roku.
So it's dramatically changed in movies and television. In terms
of music, it's all about streaming. People don't buy records anymore,
they just stream, so so the methods of distribution have
dramatically changed. The creativity hasn't changed. If you create a
(36:54):
great piece of product, it will be successful in TV
and TV, who do you think are the best creative
geniuses right now the same people that used to be creative.
Did Wolf give you an example, Dick Wolf, even though
he's still my neighbor. I had dinner the other night
with Marishka Parktey who's on UH Law and Order. He
(37:18):
has eight shows on the air. He's brilliant, so brilliant.
Jerry Bruckheimer has now come become active again. Um there.
You know, there are a lot of very, very creative producers.
Naming directors doesn't make sense. Movie You know, the old
line movie star has changed. You know, those traditional movie
(37:38):
stars of yesterday don't exist. They are a different breed
of people today. But they're always going to be movie
stars of sorts. There are always going to be great directors.
There's always going to be great producers, because it's all
about content. The delivery of content will change, streaming change, Netflix,
ham but the creation of the content always has to
(37:59):
be the h If you look back at your career,
what you think was your personal the biggest accomplishment, The
biggest accomplishment is there one event. I'll be honest with you.
I said to you at the beginning. One of the
turning points of this practice was representing Martha Stewart. I
don't know if you'd call it an accomplishment or you
(38:21):
called it a moment in time which allowed me to
move forward. That would be, you know, representing David Geffen
uh in the David believed in me so in in
nineteen um eighty he he lived in California and he said,
Alan Grugman is going to do very well. And that
(38:42):
opened up the doors to many many people. He was
an instrumental part of my career. Um. There was a
guy been named waltiet Nika flu ran Sony Records who
ended up passing on. There were certain people that have
been in my career that that had been extremely extremely important.
I just named you know a couple. Yeah, and you've
(39:03):
worked hard for many years. You continue to work hard.
You as I said in the beginning, you look better
now than you looked ten years ago. Thank you? And
uh is that your wife? Or is that who is it? No?
I it was. I woke up one day and I
said I want to live to a long age. So
(39:24):
I decided to get healthy. And of course Debbie motivated me,
you know, and and when she saw people the only
time people change is when they want to change you.
I can't convince you to do anything you don't want
to do. So once she saw that I was committed
to change, then she encouraged me. So that was basically
(39:46):
and I was changed, diet changed. But he has a
nice head of hair, You're you're fit, You're dressed nicely.
This is this is a man who knows who he
is and uh and believes in himself and works really
hard ward and has maintained his sense of humor. And
I think that that's why you have so many friends
(40:06):
alan Your sense of humor and your and your attention
to detail is just infallible, you know, talking about a
sense of humor. I went at a conversation with Debbie.
I said, Debbie, tell me, if I'm right, women in
their twenties are primarily attracted to men because of their looks.
(40:27):
What happens after that? She says, when a woman gets
into the thirties, she realizes that the character of a person,
the quality of a person, and a great sense of
humor is more attractive than looking like Brad Pitt. And
I think that's was her opinion. I think there's probably
some truth to it. Really really good looks, he does,
(40:52):
and he's smart. He's very smart. I love bradfit Well.
Alan has been so much fun talking to you, catching up,
um and uh, I know you have so much more
to do and I don't want to take you away
from your clients or your lunch, maybe maybe your ultra lunch. Now,
what's with the Danish? He brought the most beautiful day
(41:13):
so everybody could enjoy it that I had breakfast at
a So you did, okay, so I said. As I
was leaving, I said, yes, I'm gonna bring some dance.
I didn't know how many people are going to be here,
so I decided to bring Danish so that everybody could. Well.
If you're not in the know, e h is Etilize
Bars Delicious eatery on Madison Avenue and eight Street, and
(41:35):
it is one of the places to go to be
seen and to eat breakfast, lunch or dinner. Thank you
so much. I can't wait to dig into the mother said,
whenever you go to somebody's house, you always bring something
that's right there. This is this is my house. It's
away from home. Thank you for inviting me. Okay, Well,
you're a delight to talk to and I and I, uh,
(41:57):
and please my best to Larry and to Peter because
I talked to them much more than I talked to you.
But I missed you. Thank you, and I really enjoyed you.
Thank you.
I always had a gift of gab. We all know that.
Listen to listen to Alan Grubman for the next hour,
you're gonna know what the gift of gab is really
all about. Hello, everyone, you're in for a treat today.
This is Martha Stewart. And if you're in the entertainment business,
(00:22):
there is one lawyer that you want on your side,
and his name is Alan Grubman. Allen is considered the
most influential attorney in the industry and has the well
known clientele to prove it, from Bruce Springsteen, Robert De Niro, Elton,
John Lady Gaga to Little nos X and so many others,
(00:44):
even me. Martha Stewart. Allen's international legal powerhouse has represented
all of us. Alan is a co founder of the
Rock and Roll Hall of Fame as well as a
recent inductee. I was so proud when you odd inducted
into the Rocket Thank You of Fame. Alan Krugman now
(01:05):
joining me to talk about his successful career and the
entertainment business is the legendary. And I don't even like
to call you legendary because you're not dead yet. Tregeons
are dead, right and you are You are not a
legend yet, but you are very active and very busy
and very funny. And Alan has always been the same
(01:26):
and I've known him and worked with him since nineteen seven.
Welcome to my podcast. Thank you very very much. And
so I've gone through several lawyers in your firm, Alan Krugman.
We started with Alan Krugman um in what I think
it was you We we had just made a deal
with UM with Kamo. We made a consulting deal with
(01:49):
Kmon in ight seven and that was when we first met,
and I think that was the first thing we were
And that consulting deal allowed me and my company to
buy back my rights to Martha Stewart Living Magazine from
Time Inc. Nineteen nineties five I believe was we brought
it back. I think that I did. I say, excuse me,
(02:15):
that's right. And in eight seven you made the consultant.
The first time the magazine was published through Time Inc.
Was in ninete. That was the first times, right, And
then a few years later we were in a position
which to my dying day, I'll never understand that they
were prepared to sell you back everything. And we know
(02:36):
what happened after that, and for not very much money
either dollars. Remember they signed a little piece of paper
and they let me, they let me, uh, And I
kept that little piece of paper and I brought it back. Well, Um,
those those early days were so exciting for me and uh,
and you were just I think I was the first
(02:57):
non performer client you ever had. Okay, let me say
something to you that I let me just tell you
something I've never directly told you. You were my lucky charm. Really, yes,
you were the first non music client I had seven
and going forward, inspired by the representation of you, the
(03:23):
firm started going into all these different areas movies, television, journalism, athletics.
That was manufacturing fact factor and that was all inspired
by our representation of you. And I've never said this
to you, and I'm saying it publicly that I have
an enormous debt to you. I don't I assume at
(03:48):
some point I would have got through life, but meeting
you was a major step forward. Well that's very nice
to know and uh and very nice to hear. Um.
But we had, Joe. What I want to I want
to get back into your beginnings because here you are.
You were born in Brooklyn, correct you went to Brooklyn College,
(04:08):
City College and Brooklyn Law School. Okay, and uh, and
what made you What did you do first? What? What
did you what kind of law did your practice when
you first got out. I'll tell you this is uh,
this is interesting and it's fairly well known. At the
age of eleven, I had a stage mother, and at
the age of eleven, she decided that a son should
(04:31):
be a singer. So she ends up. There was a
television show in New York in those days called The
Horn and aut Art Children's Hour, which was on every
Sunday on NBC at ten thirty in the morning. So
she sent a letter and somehow I got into audition.
I had a a really good singing voice, really yes,
(04:53):
So I was accepted and from eleventh to thirteen I
was on that show every Sunday, and I was part
of a quartet. At the age of thirteen, my voice changed.
That was the end of my career. But growing up
in Brooklyn, it it gave me a taste of the
entertainment business. What do I mean the They would pick
(05:17):
us up or pick me up at on Saturday for
rehearsal in a limousine and they would take me into
the city thirty Rock right famous in your neighborhood. Wow,
But let me tell you the interesting thing. So they
take you in a limousine and you'd rehearse and then
they take you home. The only time in Brooklyn, if
(05:40):
you a middle class family, the only time you ever
was in a limousine the funeral, when you were right
behind the funeral procession. So all of a sudden, I'm
driving in this limousine and something else happened when you.
When I grew up, there were two restaurants that I
went to. You went to a kosher Delhi and you
went for Chinese food on Sunday at five o'clock. That
(06:03):
was the extent of it. They used to take us
out for lunches and dinners during rears to these very
very good restaurants. So by the age of thirteen, when
my brilliant career was over, I said, you know something,
this is good. You go to good restaurants, you drive
in fancy cause and that stayed in my mind. What
(06:26):
ends up happening. I go to City College, then I
go to Brooklyn Law School, and in Brooklyn Law School,
I said, I want to be an entertainment lawyer. So
instead of working for lawyers part time after school. My
first year I was in the mail room at William Mars.
Oh great, I didn't know that from four to eight
at night. And the second or third year, I was
(06:47):
a page at CBS and Geffen was a page at CBS.
A zillion of my friends now who was successful, So
I'm a paid So they had me wear a gray
sports jacket with a CBS. So I would walk into
class every day with this gray sport jacket and the
CBS I and they'd say, it's crazy, what's he doing.
(07:10):
He takes people to their seats, which is what a
page does. Everybody thought that I was like a little
out of my mind, but I wanted to get some
exposure to the entertainment business. And then afterwards I graduated,
and then my career started to blah blah blah and
where did you practice law? First first job I ever
had was whe a man by the name of Walter Hoefer,
(07:33):
who was a music lawyer. I always wanted to be
a movie lawyer or a television lawyer. The last thing
I wanted to be was a music lawyer. He's the
only one who gave me a job. I started working
for him in nineteen seventy and um, that's how I
became a music lawyer at the very beginning. Well, and
(07:53):
look at the look at your clientele now so many amazing, famous, famous,
famous musicians. It's amazing. You know something I pinched myself
because in my speech at the at the Hall of Fame,
I said, I wasn't supposed to do this. I was
I went to Brooklyn Law School. I was supposed to
(08:14):
be a negligence lawyer, and I said, I hate accidents.
What how would I be a successful negligence lawyer? But
by sheer luck, I was able to get my first
job in my first love. And that's what happened. So
after you worked for it, for your first your first boss,
(08:34):
how did you start your law Okay, I started working
for him and I started in nineteen sixty nine and
nineteen seventy four. I had a knack for it. You know,
sometimes you sense that you're good at something. This was
the first time in my life I ever was good
at anything. I wasn't a great athlete. I was a
terrible student. I always had a gift of gab. But
(08:58):
that but that's all. Listen to Alan Grubin for the
next hour, You're gonna know what the gift of gab
is really all about. So I started working, and after
four years, I realized that I wanted to go out
of my own. So I left the firm with four clients,
two Frenchmen who ended up creating The Village People, a
(09:22):
Miami little record company that created Casey in the Sunshine Band,
blah blah blah. Then there were two other disco artists.
In the seventies. Disco was was the big deal. So UM,
I go out on my own and all of a sudden,
disco explodes and I started repriet and now I'm in
(09:43):
my own practice and all these Where was your first
office physically East fifty fifth Street, right next to where
the Fryer's Club is now. They toured down the building.
It was one of these six story buildings and UM,
and that's how I first thought. It was seven hundred
and fifty dollars a month rent and god knows how
small it was. UM. And then I started building, building building,
(10:08):
and in in nineteen eight disco died. I don't know
if everybody remembers. It came to an end um and
and I said, oh, that's it. I'm done. And then
in Bruce Springsteen, I meet him, I meet Madonna. There
was some really important mainstream artists that I started representing,
(10:31):
Elton John, and then from there it really took off.
So who does your firm currently represential? Oh, it's like
back to who's who? Um, whether it's Bob Iger was
Bob just went back to work agains and you know,
I was very happy to see that he is requiring
(10:53):
or wanting to require five days ye work week. You
know he's very are you very happy to be back?
I have a list here, um that here, here's here
are some of the clients. Bruce Springsteen, Elton John, Lady Gaga,
Little Not eventually love Little naz X. Oh my gosh,
I love him, Madonna, Nicki, Minaj, Mariah Carry, Robert de Niro,
(11:17):
Lebron James Gayle King, Barbara Walters, past past Now, Diane Sawyer,
Bette Midler. Um, we have Usher, we have David Foster,
Shania Twain, the Estates, David Bowie, Paul Simon, you too, Tony.
These are just some of many, many many. I heart Media,
my heart media. We are talking on I heart media
(11:39):
right now. This is my podcast. That's it. And so
we represent I Heart Media, we represent Live Nation, which
is the company that does all the promotions, and Spotify, Spotify,
Warner Music Group, Universal Music Group, Sony Irving. Okay, but
that's so. And you have how many lawyers now in
the fifty fifty yers all working night and day to
(12:02):
keep all of us in business with good contracts, doing
the best that they can do and you can do.
But you know, when did you take your first partner?
Who was your first partner? Author? Yes, I remember Arthur
Author was my first partner. Um in ninety A couple
of years after I started to practice, I started to
(12:25):
bring people in and name people partners. The structure was
a little different than a formal partnership, but he was
the first one, and then a few years later it
was Paul Schindler. And then now there are fifty lawyers
in the firm, as you know. And the lawyer that
I worked with most closely, well they're too Larry Shire
(12:46):
correct was devoted to you, who is now a senior
partner and his name is in the name of the
firm as scruman Shire uh sas and also Peter Grant.
I just wanted to mention both of those because they
work really really hard for us and they are fantastic
representatives of the Grubman Law firm. They are amazing. So
(13:16):
stepping out on your own, you started to accumulate a
roster of clients that second to none in the entertainment business.
Your friends, who do you who do you consider your
circle of friends? Which you just When I walked into
this morning to um to interview Alan, he was on
the phone with Skip Ronson, Skip Ronson who you introduced
(13:40):
me to? That's right, I introduced him to six Skip Ronson,
who was at the time in Las Vegas working for
Steve Win. And then you were also you said you
had dinner yesterday or lunch yesterday at at Tip Yani
with Irwin Winkler, who's another old time friend and client
of yours. And so the whole time that I've known
Alan Grubman, he still has all his old friends, which
(14:03):
is is really an amazing feats. Yes, I live in
a very exclusive area of the Hampton's called lily Pan Lane,
and you know who convinced me to buy the house.
I couldn't stand it. He was renting and I said, Alan,
you have to buy a house. You have to and
(14:24):
he bought a really nice house and improved it tremendously
across the street. And I'm sorry I sold my house.
I'm not really sorry, but I'm sorry. I miss you.
I miss you, and I missed and I missed a breakfast,
and I miss your wife and uh and I really
I really wish sometimes that I was still out there.
But I'll be out I'll be visiting. Um but the
(14:46):
Hampton's and and when you if I just describe to
digress a little bit, Alan's Sunday's are amazing in the
Hampton's because there's a lunch. You don't know who's gonna
be John bon Jovis at lunch, and then there's tell
them something, just say it comes to your house. Nowadays
it's David Zaslav who's the chairman of Waters and David
(15:07):
Dean has a house on the street bon Jovi. Um,
it's just like and then remember those days, More Zuckerman
was there all the time, Um, who you It was
a who's who on Sunday for lunch. And Debbie used
to get calls how do I get invited? And Debbie,
(15:27):
who is a very famous relator, a real estate agent
here in New York city. Is this beautiful buxom blonde,
very very fit and very beautiful with long blonde hair.
And she somehow keeps Alan Grudman in shape and intact.
She's She's amazing. So tell me a little bit about
(15:48):
your family. You have how many kids? So I have, uh,
two daughters, Lizzie and Jenny who Lizzie has two children
sixteen and thirteen, and Jenny has twins sixteen. Debbie has
a son, Um who has a daughter, and then she
has a daughter who has two children. So you and
(16:12):
you keep track of all those birthdays. They make sure
because they all have arthritis. Described this to the audience.
The hands are always like this. Oh there, Oh, the
palms are up. Palms are always up waiting to be filled.
That's their form of arthritis. You know why, because you're
a very generous man. That's why Gruman and you've always
(16:33):
been a generous man. And that makes a big difference
to kids. They know that they can count on you,
right as this as his clients can count on him.
So what is the biggest mistake people make or some
of the mistakes people make when signing contracts? They have
the wrong lawyers and very often when people sign contracts.
(16:54):
They only look at one line, how much money they're getting.
They don't look at everything else that's so important, like
what what's required of what restrictions, what they can do,
what they can't do, what the companies on the other
side I could do. It isn't just there's an old
grubmen expression, it's not about the money. It's about the money.
(17:15):
But that is only to a certain I quote you
many times about that. But there are a lot of
other things that are important. So the law firm is growing.
It is accumulating clients at a at a very very
fast rate. Correct um. Who would you say has been
the most exciting client to deal with? It depends on
(17:36):
what period of time. Right now, an important client to
the firm is warners one of media, David Zaza because
of all that's happening, well, he has been accumulating properties
like crazy David Zaslov was was became very famous as
the head of Discovery Channel and then he bought one
(17:59):
of Media Warner Me do that a year and a half,
which includes what HBO it's HBO CN and one of
one of the movies, one of movie Group, um T
n T it's an enormous company. It is and UH
and the Food Network and emerged that with Discovery and
it's now an enormous media company and he's now in
(18:22):
the process of integrating it and growing it. Yeah. Really
he's a wonderful guy. Yeah. Oh, I love him. I
love him. He's so much fun too. And tell a
funny story about Barbara streisand Is. So we're we have
a dinner out in California, which Debbie does, and streisand
(18:44):
is there and David sass up right after he got
the job. So Barbara comes in. David was already there
talking to a few people. Barbara comes in. I go
over to Barbara, Barbara, you see the guy with the vest. Yeah,
he is now the new head of One of Pictures,
because that's what he would, she would one of Pictures. Yes,
(19:07):
he is Bob Daily. He is Steve Ross. And I
mentioned all the you can't so, I said, she hadn't
met him before, she didn't know who he was. I mean,
he had no idea. So I go over to disaster laugh.
Take a look over there, he says, is that Bobs
drives in? I said, I'm glad you visioned is Yes,
(19:33):
I said, now what you're gonna do is he's gonna
walk over to her, You're gonna sit down, and you're
gonna chat with her. He says, okay. See For the
next twenty minutes, they fall in love with each other
because he was how do I say this? He was
doing everything to ingratiate himself with her, and she was
(19:53):
doing twice as much because she's picturing that should be
able to do a movie for what it was hysterical.
And then it's time to go into dinner. She comes
over to me and says, Alan, he's such a charming guy.
And it was very, very fine. So these two people
met for the first time and they worked each other
to the point that they wanted to accomplish. So I
(20:15):
thought it was a cute story because he was just
you know, Discovery is a network that does documentaries. They
don't really deal with talent. They do with documentaries as
you know the Food Network. Uh, they do documentaries on
interesting subjects, and now all of a sudden, he's running
this company where talent is the issue. But anyway, I
(20:36):
thought it was a cute story. That's very very cute,
and and so is she gonna make a movie with her? Well?
She's hoping, Yeah, we'll see, We'll see. I mean, she
can just write her own ticket, Barbara streisand I mean
she has done. She's an amazing actress and an amazing performer.
So and I don't and I don't think she's thinking
of retiring anytime soon. She's she's you guys are the
(20:58):
same age, so al And just turned eighty. I'm eighty one.
Hard to believe right now, impossible to the right. We
we don't. We are workers. And I was talking to
Allen before we started to interview to the Unicorns that
we are unicorns, but we are also the hardest workers around.
We don't want to retire. When people say, oh, what
(21:20):
do you what are you going to slow down? I
couldn't think about slowing down. And Alan Gruman certainly hasn't
slowed down at all. We'll have plenty of time to
rest at the right moment. You are bicoastal now. Also,
when did you decide that you would get a house
in l A. It had nothing to do with me.
It was Debbie, Debbie's whole family. I've always had a
(21:40):
lot of clients in l A. And I would go
there once a month for a week, or several days.
So she says, Alan, it's time for us to buy
a house. Uh, I'm tired of staying at hotels. But
she really wanted to have as it. So then we
started looking for houses and other interesting story we saw
(22:02):
looking for a house and one house at beb but
but one after the other we don't like. Then all
of a sudden, Debbie gets a call from David Geffen.
David Geffen is a very successful entrepreneur in the entertainment business.
He's fairly well known so but he's a dear friend
of mine. And the Philharmonic, the New York Philharmonic Hall
is now the David Geffen Hall thanks to a massive
(22:25):
gift from David Gef. I went to the opening where
you were at the opening? Yeah, we saw each other.
So um. He says to Debbie, get on a plane today.
I want you to be out here. I want to
show you something. So David said, get on a plane.
Debbie gets on a plane. There was a very famous
agent called Sioux Mangers, which probably very few people in
(22:48):
your audience will remember, but she was like the most
famous agent of her day, and she had just died,
and she had this great house in Beverly Hills. So,
to make a long story short, we bought the house
and um and what ended up happening is that Debbie
spent about a year and a half. It was a wreck,
(23:09):
but the bones were great. It was a very famous architect.
I want to see that house one of these days,
have a coordinative visit. So the bottom line is, so
now we have a house and we're out there a
week a month. But she loves it and we love
the house. And she's doing in l A what she
does in New York, not working, but in terms of
socializing and seeing her seeing her family and grant any time. Right, Yeah,
(23:32):
that's so great. So I just want to know. I
want people to know what you do in a day.
What time do you get up? Um? I get up
at six o'clock and UM, I get out of bed,
usually between six thirty and seven, and then I come downstairs,
I have a cup of coffee and then I work
(23:52):
out at seven. I actually we'll start working at at
seven three days a week until eight. Then at eight
third I go to breakfast, either with a friend, a client,
or a lawyer in the office, and I usually get
to the office. Where do you go for breakfast either
e A t on Madison Avenue, Bonnie green Grass on
(24:13):
the west side, and the third one is Santambros, which
is on Mati Avenue. They get to the office about
nine thirty and then the day begins, whether it's phone calls,
whether it's meetings, dealing with the lawyers with their issues.
And then I go to lunch at one again with
(24:35):
either lawyers or an outside person. Favorite place for lunch. Um,
it's tough these days. Milos. I like because it's fish
trott A Rhea, which is Italian Brooklyn diner. I'm gonna
put in a plug has the greatest roklate cake. It's
called Alan Grubman's Truck. Really, I'm going to go there
(24:55):
one of these days with you. You're taking me for truy,
I'm paying for it, Okay. Sometimes I go to Michael's,
like yesterday I went with her, went to Cipriani. There's
no one restaurant, and if I'm going with the lawyers,
then it's totally different. We'll go for pizza, we'll go
for some Chinese food and that's it. So then I
(25:15):
kept back to the office like two to thirty, and
I work another two hours doing whatever has to be done.
And then at four thirty I go home. I take
a massage. At five to six, and then seven thirty
we either dinner with people at home. When we go
out to a restaurant. I'm back by ten ten thirty
and sleeping by ten thirty eleven. So you get a
(25:37):
good night's sleep, you sleep well. Yes, I usually sleep
from eleven till let's say six. Any any programs that
you must watch on TV, Well, I get home at
the point. You know, the problem is, I'm out either
for dinner or we have dinner, and it always is
over by ten ten fifteen. It's too late to watch
any programs. So I watch news. So good. So I
(26:00):
you have to be informed in your business, in every business, Yes, definitely,
and and so and that's and on weekends, if I'm
in California, it's spending time with our kids, and in
the evening we socialize. If in New York, if I'm
out in the half one during the summer, we go out,
(26:21):
as you know, to the to the house Friday morning
and come back Monday morning. During except in the middle
of July, we go to europe Um. During the winter,
we're out there maybe once or twice maximum. And when
we stay in the city, we just relax. There's no
specific skit. Good life, good friends. I saw you recently
(26:45):
at a big table of people at the Polo Bar
with Ralph Florence restaurant. Right, that's a fun place to go.
I just worry about the fact that it's downstairs. Yes,
we all worry about that's weird. But the food is great. Yeah,
it's definitely. The atmosphere is great and we enjoy it. Okay. So, um,
(27:07):
when when somebody comes to you looking for help, legal help,
how do you approach a new client? First, I, if
they come to me, I'll sit and talk to them
and see if I have First if I can be
productive for them? And number two, do I have an
interest in being productive? And then when I see what
(27:29):
their issues are and what area, whether it's a television,
whether it's a book, deal where, whether it's a music,
then um, I will go to the appropriate lawyer and
have them meet with the person and then we try
to help them very If we represent we represent a
(27:49):
lot of TV journalists. Now. It started with the representation
of Diane Sawyer and Barbara Walters, but now it's spread
to Gail King, and a whole slew of journalists. That's
an area I find interesting. Yeah, well, very interesting. Barbara
Walters just passed away. She was a very close friend
of you yours, and and Debbie's very very close And yeah,
(28:14):
I've been on the phone with Bob Iger trying to
figure out what to do, uh in terms of some
sort of memorial and it's in discussion right now. Okay,
we'll make sure I get invited, because you know how,
you know how she was wonderful Fondie was of her
and and her professionalism and uh and her goodwill towards
so many good causes. She was an interesting woman. I'll
(28:34):
tell you a funny story about how we were on
Geffen's boat and it was Bob and I blah blah blah,
and and a few other people very important in the
financial world that in the entertainment. So we're having dinner,
and then after dinner, she comes over to me says,
you know, Allen, this is the only place in the
(28:57):
world I must see celebrity because the other people, whether
it was financial or what they accomplished. So she she
was used to being catered to. And Barbara Wallas is
and now she said, I'm a C celebrity. I said,
it could be worse. How could it be worse? You
could be a D celebrity. But we had a big
(29:17):
laugh about well, she's a She was a very forthright
person and she and she uh shouldn't make fun of
herself and that was that was. She was an amazing,
amazing she was the greatest TV journal female. You're on
a list of the tent, but she broke all the
ice for everybody that followed. She really did. She was
very The Golden Globes were last night. I missed it.
(29:40):
Did you see it? I did not know I was.
I was out at a at a corporate dinner, but
but I read it all about it this morning, and
I and uh, and it was. They said it was
a little boring, but um, you know, they had a
lot of repair workship to do after the last Golden Globes.
But I thought that the awards went to the right
peep bowl when I when when, I mean, I've seen
(30:02):
most of the most of the programming that that one,
and I thought I thought they chose chose well. Spielberg's
movie one yes, The Fable Men, which I actually saw,
and didn't you like it, Yeah, because it was like
the story of his life. It was He's a victory
for the nerds. You know, I've said to Debbie, I said,
(30:24):
in high school, there were the nerdy, unpopular kids, and
then there were the stars, the head of the football team,
the most popular kid, the best looking blah blah blah.
What ends up happening as adults the nerds become Mark Zuckerberg,
the Google guys, um Elon must course, and what happens
(30:46):
to the great baseball players and popular they become gym teachers.
The nerds are running the world now they are in
and the people in high school, high school, you got
the well the Bill Gates is and extreme jobs and
the Charles Simonies of the world exactly. But but it's
uh everyone, everyone, Ultimately, it's about what you do all
(31:11):
your life, not just about what you do in a
little moment. To tell everybody the Charles Simony story. You're
going to Joel Silver's wedding, Oh you tell us, I forgot,
You're gonna remember all listen. Charles Simony was a former
boyfriend of mine and we were invited to go to
Joel Silver's wedding in Venice twenty years ago, the most
(31:34):
beautiful wedding. It was a week long wedding, the best,
the best destination wedding I ever went to me too.
Of course he married another, that's right, okay, okay. So
so you called Debbie and you say, listen, I'm going
with Charles Simony and we're flying over. Would you like
a lift? So Debbie said, of course. So on the
(31:55):
way to the airport, we stopped at E A T.
And Debbie gets to muffins, puts them in a bag.
We get on the plane. At about forty minutes into
the plane, I say to you, I'm hungry. Can we
get something to eat? And you say something to Simony
and he turns white. He brought no food for a
(32:19):
nine hour trip. I don't know if you remember. I
remember classic Charles is a nerd. He was. He was
the man who wrote word and Excel for Microsoft, and
and he did not believe in dirtying his plane with crumbs.
So this is what happened. So then I said, I
whispered a Debby. He still lapped the muffins. She said, yeah.
(32:44):
I said, go into the bathroom and cut them in
in eagle pieces and come back. So well, matha then
takes charge. She decided how we were going to eat
these two muffins for the next nine hours, and that's
the only thing we had to eat. It was hysterically.
There was always a couple of little pieces of chocolate,
(33:05):
a special a special kind of chocolate that was that
was the only thing allowed. And water. I have told
that story. I can't. It's hysterical that you fly, I know,
brand new Falcon fifty X. I mean it was fantastic,
but no crumbs allowed. I got him to allow me
to take my dogs on the plane. Yeah, that was
(33:28):
a big accomplishment. And he didn't even like pets, No dogs,
no cat. And that's a major even a bigger accompany
much more. You're known to be a great negotiator. What
makes a great negotiator knowing when to stop. A great
(33:53):
negotiator is somebody that knows when, let's say I'm representing
somebody that's selling something thing. First, you've got to know
when you've reached the point that you're not going to
get any more, and if you continue, you're going to
develop resentment and a deal and you lose the deal.
That's if you're representing the seller, if you're representing the buyer.
(34:18):
You've got to know how much you can give and
try to go to the most, but don't become too
cheap to blow the deal. So being a great negotiators
understanding when to say stop, and very few people know that.
Most people go too far, you know, on either side.
(34:39):
But do you find that out from so you're selling
something for someone, do you really get those numbers out
of the cellar before you go in? Instincts? It's all instinct,
you know something I always said to people. You can
study and learn the law, but the emotional intelligence which
you're born with no wing. Who are you dealing with,
(35:02):
how to get along with that person and knowing when
it's time to close the deal. Are there people that
you couldn't ever negotiate with? Yes, and most of them
ended up failures because they couldn't negotiate with me. That
means they would have problems with other people. Yeah, and
they don't succeed. The entertainment industry has changed so drastically
(35:23):
over the years. Um discuss that a little bit. Well, now,
let's take movies and television. There was a time when
movies with a superior was the superior child, and television
was the secondary child. As we all know, now television
and the shows on television are much more important and
(35:45):
much more relevant than movie theatrical movies. Is that because
of the pandemic or is that just a trend? Anyway,
I think it's a trend. But also the pandemic, which
kept people at home was had a great impetus in
But now the really I remember years ago an actor,
a movie star would never think of doing anything in television.
(36:06):
Now it's totally changed. The biggest movie stars are prepared
to do television series, television movies, etcetera. So streaming has
changed the world. Uh in Holly Hollywood used to be
the important companies in Hollywood used to be paramount and
Sony and Warner Brothers. Now the most important companies in
(36:30):
Hollywood are the streaming companies Netflix, Amazon, of Roku Roku.
So it's dramatically changed in movies and television. In terms
of music, it's all about streaming. People don't buy records anymore,
they just stream, so so the methods of distribution have
dramatically changed. The creativity hasn't changed. If you create a
(36:54):
great piece of product, it will be successful in TV
and TV, who do you think are the best creative
geniuses right now the same people that used to be creative.
Did Wolf give you an example, Dick Wolf, even though
he's still my neighbor. I had dinner the other night
with Marishka Parktey who's on UH Law and Order. He
(37:18):
has eight shows on the air. He's brilliant, so brilliant.
Jerry Bruckheimer has now come become active again. Um there.
You know, there are a lot of very, very creative producers.
Naming directors doesn't make sense. Movie You know, the old
line movie star has changed. You know, those traditional movie
(37:38):
stars of yesterday don't exist. They are a different breed
of people today. But they're always going to be movie
stars of sorts. There are always going to be great directors.
There's always going to be great producers, because it's all
about content. The delivery of content will change, streaming change, Netflix,
ham but the creation of the content always has to
(37:59):
be the h If you look back at your career,
what you think was your personal the biggest accomplishment, The
biggest accomplishment is there one event. I'll be honest with you.
I said to you at the beginning. One of the
turning points of this practice was representing Martha Stewart. I
don't know if you'd call it an accomplishment or you
(38:21):
called it a moment in time which allowed me to
move forward. That would be, you know, representing David Geffen
uh in the David believed in me so in in
nineteen um eighty he he lived in California and he said,
Alan Grugman is going to do very well. And that
(38:42):
opened up the doors to many many people. He was
an instrumental part of my career. Um. There was a
guy been named waltiet Nika flu ran Sony Records who
ended up passing on. There were certain people that have
been in my career that that had been extremely extremely important.
I just named you know a couple. Yeah, and you've
(39:03):
worked hard for many years. You continue to work hard.
You as I said in the beginning, you look better
now than you looked ten years ago. Thank you? And
uh is that your wife? Or is that who is it? No?
I it was. I woke up one day and I
said I want to live to a long age. So
(39:24):
I decided to get healthy. And of course Debbie motivated me,
you know, and and when she saw people the only
time people change is when they want to change you.
I can't convince you to do anything you don't want
to do. So once she saw that I was committed
to change, then she encouraged me. So that was basically
(39:46):
and I was changed, diet changed. But he has a
nice head of hair, You're you're fit, You're dressed nicely.
This is this is a man who knows who he
is and uh and believes in himself and works really
hard ward and has maintained his sense of humor. And
I think that that's why you have so many friends
(40:06):
alan Your sense of humor and your and your attention
to detail is just infallible, you know, talking about a
sense of humor. I went at a conversation with Debbie.
I said, Debbie, tell me, if I'm right, women in
their twenties are primarily attracted to men because of their looks.
(40:27):
What happens after that? She says, when a woman gets
into the thirties, she realizes that the character of a person,
the quality of a person, and a great sense of
humor is more attractive than looking like Brad Pitt. And
I think that's was her opinion. I think there's probably
some truth to it. Really really good looks, he does,
(40:52):
and he's smart. He's very smart. I love bradfit Well.
Alan has been so much fun talking to you, catching up,
um and uh, I know you have so much more
to do and I don't want to take you away
from your clients or your lunch, maybe maybe your ultra lunch. Now,
what's with the Danish? He brought the most beautiful day
(41:13):
so everybody could enjoy it that I had breakfast at
a So you did, okay, so I said. As I
was leaving, I said, yes, I'm gonna bring some dance.
I didn't know how many people are going to be here,
so I decided to bring Danish so that everybody could. Well.
If you're not in the know, e h is Etilize
Bars Delicious eatery on Madison Avenue and eight Street, and
(41:35):
it is one of the places to go to be
seen and to eat breakfast, lunch or dinner. Thank you
so much. I can't wait to dig into the mother said,
whenever you go to somebody's house, you always bring something
that's right there. This is this is my house. It's
away from home. Thank you for inviting me. Okay, Well,
you're a delight to talk to and I and I, uh,
(41:57):
and please my best to Larry and to Peter because
I talked to them much more than I talked to you.
But I missed you. Thank you, and I really enjoyed you.
Thank you.
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